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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

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  • Russ Rodnick
    I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
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      I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

      There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

      Russ




      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

       
      Hello Non eckchains and All,
      What has me ROFLMAO is
      that Klemp has enough of
      a problem that he used it
      in the ASK The MASTER
      section of the H.I. Letter!
      And, it was the only question!
      They had, supposedly, an
      H.I. write-in and point out
      the problem. No name given.

      I remember when I had
      to deal with some older
      H.I.s (former RESAs) in
      coordinator and director
      positions and it was
      impossible to get this
      one to follow the Guidelines
      on EK Worship Services
      (EWS). Many long-time
      H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
      Guidelines and my
      RESA turned a blind-
      eye to it all. We had
      so many former RESAs
      in volunteer positions
      that it was impossible
      to get them on the
      same page and to follow
      procedures. I think
      that some were just
      burned out and tired
      of Klemp's B.S. but
      didn't want to leave.
      Maybe they had too
      many friendships to
      lose. Plus, let's face
      it. A lot of these people
      are losers in the real
      world but are big shots
      in Eckankar. Those
      Higher Initiations are
      a big deal to the ego!

      Prometheus


      "Non" eckchains wrote:
      It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
      don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
      offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
      over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
      even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

      Non ;)

      prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Hello All,
      > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
      > Letter I've read that
      > Klemp still needs to
      > update his Guidelines
      > for the H.I.s in the
      > field and chastise
      > those who are slow
      > to get with the program.
      >
      > Many long-time H.I.s
      > want the freedom
      > of Soul to be more
      > individualistic,
      > spontaneous, and
      > creative by thinking
      > they (Soul) can operate
      > outside-of-the-box,
      > thus, being channels
      > for the ECK. Klemp
      > has previously stated
      > that he's imperfect,
      > but that's not the case
      > with the ECK, correct?
      >
      > Why, then, shouldn't
      > their current (Present)
      > Inner EK Guidance be
      > followed versus that
      > of outer set-in-stone
      > ESC Guidelines printed
      > in the Past and approved
      > by a committee of imperfect
      > people on a plane ruled
      > by the KAL?
      >
      > H.I.s still haven't learned
      > that freedom of expression
      > doesn't work in Klemp's
      > version of ECKankar.
      > It's a hierarchy where
      > everything is spelled
      > out and controlled
      > by him and his secret
      > RESA police, plus, all
      > field work must be
      > approved via the
      > current Guidelines.
      >
      > Many inexperienced
      > EKists like the idea of
      > being told how to do
      > this or that and what
      > approved books to use
      > and what to say and
      > other details to make
      > the promotion of
      > Eckankar easier.
      >
      > But the real point the
      > ESC (Klemp) is making
      > is to have EK PR more
      > consistent and cookie
      > cutter looking/sounding
      > for the public.
      >
      > Plus, the EK Guidelines
      > are like following a
      > recipe set-in-stone
      > that disregards individual
      > or regional tastes and
      > disallows any additions
      > or omissions of other
      > ingredients, methods,
      > and/or spices.
      >
      > Klemp's foretold admonishments
      > are about H.I.s resisting
      > change. He says they "rock
      > the boat" out of "fear" and
      > that "it's all about fear."
      > Also, "they huddle in packs"
      > and "reinforce in each other
      > a group's opposition to
      > anything new." Strange
      > that Klemp's H.I.s are
      > subject to fear since he's
      > supposed to protect them!
      > This is how the KAL works.
      > Klemp is his agent.
      >
      > However, the real 'change'
      > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
      > Klemp's nonsense and
      > heavy handed control tactics.
      > Many H.I.s, however, chose
      > the Freedom of Soul versus
      > being bound to dogma.
      > HK side-steps delivering
      > on his promises of protection
      > and never has anything
      > profound to share. And,
      > where are those Higher
      > Initiations that are, supposedly,
      > yardsticks in measuring
      > Consciousness and Spiritual
      > Growth? Klemp is playing
      > the long-con and is, thus,
      > stingy and self-serving.
      >
      > Harold goes on to say that
      > these H.I.s are "obstructions
      > on the path to God instead
      > of being stepping stones."
      > Apparently, being creative
      > and spontaneous and
      > following "Inner Nudges"
      > and/or "Signs" are not
      > permitted if it conflicts
      > with the LEM's outer,
      > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
      >
      > The LEM states that, "We
      > are here to learn." However,
      > what is it that Klemp "learns"
      > from others since he never
      > listens? He's the Top goD
      > and doesn't partake in
      > two-way dialogues with
      > those under his authority.
      >
      > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
      > and unloving as he continues
      > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
      > believe that if they sit still
      > and breathe only enough to
      > sustain life that they may
      > well dodge the lightning
      > strikes of irksome change."
      > Is that a threat? HK sounds
      > like KAL! However, by doing
      > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
      > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
      > Don't EKists still die of all
      > sorts of illnesses and situations
      > that could have be averted
      > if they had gotten proper
      > and immediate care? Sure!
      > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
      > ECKists and his veiled threats
      > are meaningless... unless
      > you've given this Black
      > Magician power over you!
      >
      > But, it seems that HK
      > has something else stuck
      > in his craw. It seems to
      > me that Klemp doesn't
      > like his 7ths just sitting
      > still and Contemplating
      > or HUing, and enjoying
      > life. But why shouldn't
      > they take it easy after
      > 40 years of doing PR
      > work for Eckankar!
      >
      > So, what does Klemp
      > the All compassionate,
      > loving, positive, and
      > empathetic icon of EK
      > conclude?
      >
      > "An H.I. who blatantly
      > refuses to adhere to
      > the ECK Guidelines
      > needs to be addressed
      > on the issues." Hmmmm.
      > I wonder what that
      > really means? Well,
      > unless you're already
      > a 7th you can kiss that
      > next initiation good-bye
      > for like 10-20 years!
      >
      > Klemp continues to say,
      > "These are big stakes!
      > Continued refusal means
      > it's time for a replacement
      > to step in. A change is
      > due. Change. isn't it
      > funny how we have come
      > full circle?" No! It's not
      > really funny. Klemp
      > abuses the concept
      > of "change" and makes
      > it into a misnomer.
      >
      > What "changes" are there
      > in Eckankar? The same
      > old things are merely
      > revisited, updated, dusted
      > off and made to seem
      > "new." It's all a facade,
      > smoke and mirrors, and
      > a game of pretend by
      > creating brightly colored
      > straws to grab at and
      > cling to when drowning.
      >
      > Too bad that EKists are
      > so deluded and needy
      > and aren't able to read
      > between the lines and
      > see the real truth behind
      > Klemp's words and methods.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >



    • prometheus_973
      Hello Russ and All, I remember when I was heavily involved and very close to the old RESA. EK state and local center business, dead lines for events and PR,
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
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        Hello Russ and All,
        I remember when I
        was heavily involved
        and very close to the
        old RESA. EK state and
        local center business,
        dead lines for events
        and PR, HK's expectations
        of following procedures
        and the complex Guidelines
        stressed all of us out.
        Just getting the newsletter
        out on time was a pain
        in the ass.

        Then, there were the
        job descriptions for
        coordinator and director
        positions. When asking
        people to volunteer for
        these positions they had
        no idea of what was really
        expected of them and
        of what they were getting
        into until we got them
        their job description folder.
        Some EKists couldn't handle
        the duties and the oversight.

        I changed and was too
        serious when at the EK
        center or in business
        meetings. But, I was just
        following the orders and
        expectations and the lead
        of the (fascist) RESA who
        was following the fascist
        Leader (HK).

        H.I.s can become very
        consumed when caught
        up in and involved with
        the internal workings
        of the org. Plus, Klemp
        has never been empathetic
        and is results oriented,
        so this is why many of
        his RESAs are chosen.
        They are either very hands-
        on and controlling, or
        tend to delegate responsibility
        to others who are more
        heavy-handed, mean-
        spirited or ego driven
        and fascist acting.

        In actuality many EKists
        only have Eckankar in
        common with one another.
        Some of these people
        are okay and were fun
        to hang out with at times,
        but this wasn't true with
        too many on a personal
        level. There were personality
        conflicts or quirks that
        were just too weird.

        That reminds me of this
        Holiday Season. Many
        EKists will have Christmas
        trees and will decorate
        with lights and will celebrate
        the holidays and the New
        Year just like normal people.

        But ECKists don't have
        that. Their New Year is
        Oct. 22nd which was
        Twitchell's B-Day. So,
        when you think of it
        Oct. 22nd was not just
        the EK New Year but was
        like their Christmas too!

        It's no wonder EKists seem
        to be schizophrenic when
        it comes to the holidays.
        Most ECKists don't realize
        that Oct. 22nd was created
        as the date for the handing
        of the Rod of ECK Power
        (the EK New Year) because
        it was Twitchell's B-Day!
        This is, also, why Klemp
        doesn't reveal his birth
        month and day since he,
        the (supposed) Mahanta,
        didn't choose to be born
        on Oct. 22nd as well.

        Prometheus


        Russ Rodnick wrote:
        I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community.

        There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things.

        Russ

        prometheus wrote:
        Hello Non eckchains and All,
        What has me ROFLMAO is
        that Klemp has enough of
        a problem that he used it
        in the ASK The MASTER
        section of the H.I. Letter!
        And, it was the only question!
        They had, supposedly, an
        H.I. write-in and point out
        the problem. No name given.

        I remember when I had
        to deal with some older
        H.I.s (former RESAs) in
        coordinator and director
        positions and it was
        impossible to get this
        one to follow the Guidelines
        on EK Worship Services
        (EWS). Many long-time
        H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
        Guidelines and my
        RESA turned a blind-
        eye to it all. We had
        so many former RESAs
        in volunteer positions
        that it was impossible
        to get them on the
        same page and to follow
        procedures. I think
        that some were just
        burned out and tired
        of Klemp's B.S. but
        didn't want to leave.
        Maybe they had too
        many friendships to
        lose. Plus, let's face
        it. A lot of these people
        are losers in the real
        world but are big shots
        in Eckankar. Those
        Higher Initiations are
        a big deal to the ego!

        Prometheus


        "Non" eckchains wrote:
        It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
        don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
        offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
        over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
        even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

        Non ;)

        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
        > Letter I've read that
        > Klemp still needs to
        > update his Guidelines
        > for the H.I.s in the
        > field and chastise
        > those who are slow
        > to get with the program.
        >
        > Many long-time H.I.s
        > want the freedom
        > of Soul to be more
        > individualistic,
        > spontaneous, and
        > creative by thinking
        > they (Soul) can operate
        > outside-of-the-box,
        > thus, being channels
        > for the ECK. Klemp
        > has previously stated
        > that he's imperfect,
        > but that's not the case
        > with the ECK, correct?
        >
        > Why, then, shouldn't
        > their current (Present)
        > Inner EK Guidance be
        > followed versus that
        > of outer set-in-stone
        > ESC Guidelines printed
        > in the Past and approved
        > by a committee of imperfect
        > people on a plane ruled
        > by the KAL?
        >
        > H.I.s still haven't learned
        > that freedom of expression
        > doesn't work in Klemp's
        > version of ECKankar.
        > It's a hierarchy where
        > everything is spelled
        > out and controlled
        > by him and his secret
        > RESA police, plus, all
        > field work must be
        > approved via the
        > current Guidelines.
        >
        > Many inexperienced
        > EKists like the idea of
        > being told how to do
        > this or that and what
        > approved books to use
        > and what to say and
        > other details to make
        > the promotion of
        > Eckankar easier.
        >
        > But the real point the
        > ESC (Klemp) is making
        > is to have EK PR more
        > consistent and cookie
        > cutter looking/sounding
        > for the public.
        >
        > Plus, the EK Guidelines
        > are like following a
        > recipe set-in-stone
        > that disregards individual
        > or regional tastes and
        > disallows any additions
        > or omissions of other
        > ingredients, methods,
        > and/or spices.
        >
        > Klemp's foretold admonishments
        > are about H.I.s resisting
        > change. He says they "rock
        > the boat" out of "fear" and
        > that "it's all about fear."
        > Also, "they huddle in packs"
        > and "reinforce in each other
        > a group's opposition to
        > anything new." Strange
        > that Klemp's H.I.s are
        > subject to fear since he's
        > supposed to protect them!
        > This is how the KAL works.
        > Klemp is his agent.
        >
        > However, the real 'change'
        > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
        > Klemp's nonsense and
        > heavy handed control tactics.
        > Many H.I.s, however, chose
        > the Freedom of Soul versus
        > being bound to dogma.
        > HK side-steps delivering
        > on his promises of protection
        > and never has anything
        > profound to share. And,
        > where are those Higher
        > Initiations that are, supposedly,
        > yardsticks in measuring
        > Consciousness and Spiritual
        > Growth? Klemp is playing
        > the long-con and is, thus,
        > stingy and self-serving.
        >
        > Harold goes on to say that
        > these H.I.s are "obstructions
        > on the path to God instead
        > of being stepping stones."
        > Apparently, being creative
        > and spontaneous and
        > following "Inner Nudges"
        > and/or "Signs" are not
        > permitted if it conflicts
        > with the LEM's outer,
        > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
        >
        > The LEM states that, "We
        > are here to learn." However,
        > what is it that Klemp "learns"
        > from others since he never
        > listens? He's the Top goD
        > and doesn't partake in
        > two-way dialogues with
        > those under his authority.
        >
        > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
        > and unloving as he continues
        > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
        > believe that if they sit still
        > and breathe only enough to
        > sustain life that they may
        > well dodge the lightning
        > strikes of irksome change."
        > Is that a threat? HK sounds
        > like KAL! However, by doing
        > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
        > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
        > Don't EKists still die of all
        > sorts of illnesses and situations
        > that could have be averted
        > if they had gotten proper
        > and immediate care? Sure!
        > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
        > ECKists and his veiled threats
        > are meaningless... unless
        > you've given this Black
        > Magician power over you!
        >
        > But, it seems that HK
        > has something else stuck
        > in his craw. It seems to
        > me that Klemp doesn't
        > like his 7ths just sitting
        > still and Contemplating
        > or HUing, and enjoying
        > life. But why shouldn't
        > they take it easy after
        > 40 years of doing PR
        > work for Eckankar!
        >
        > So, what does Klemp
        > the All compassionate,
        > loving, positive, and
        > empathetic icon of EK
        > conclude?
        >
        > "An H.I. who blatantly
        > refuses to adhere to
        > the ECK Guidelines
        > needs to be addressed
        > on the issues." Hmmmm.
        > I wonder what that
        > really means? Well,
        > unless you're already
        > a 7th you can kiss that
        > next initiation good-bye
        > for like 10-20 years!
        >
        > Klemp continues to say,
        > "These are big stakes!
        > Continued refusal means
        > it's time for a replacement
        > to step in. A change is
        > due. Change. isn't it
        > funny how we have come
        > full circle?" No! It's not
        > really funny. Klemp
        > abuses the concept
        > of "change" and makes
        > it into a misnomer.
        >
        > What "changes" are there
        > in Eckankar? The same
        > old things are merely
        > revisited, updated, dusted
        > off and made to seem
        > "new." It's all a facade,
        > smoke and mirrors, and
        > a game of pretend by
        > creating brightly colored
        > straws to grab at and
        > cling to when drowning.
        >
        > Too bad that EKists are
        > so deluded and needy
        > and aren't able to read
        > between the lines and
        > see the real truth behind
        > Klemp's words and methods.
        >
        > Prometheus
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Janice, Klemp will keep tightening the screws and dangling the initiation carrot. It s his M.O. However, he doesn t care about the repercussions because
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Janice,
          Klemp will keep tightening
          the screws and dangling
          the initiation carrot. It's his
          M.O. However, he doesn't
          care about the repercussions
          because he's financially
          solid and secure with his
          book royalties and retirement
          plan. But he does still like
          the attention. Eckankar, and
          EK writing, is Klemp's hobby.

          It's interesting if you look
          at some pics of the H.I.s at
          Retreats or at their H.I. Meetings
          you might notice there are
          many elderly (70 years plus)
          H.I.s. Those age 60 and older
          probably make up 75% of
          the total number of EK Higher
          Initiates.

          Klemp, by slowing down initiations
          and placing the glass ceiling
          on the 7th has discouraged
          many H.I.s. Of course there
          are some 8ths and a few 9ths
          but these numbers are nowhere
          what they should be and don't
          reflect the dogma or goals of
          Twitchell. The frustration with
          Klemp's stinginess in doling
          out initiations via his narcissism
          has done more harm to Eckankar
          maintaining membership numbers
          than any of their PR tactics have
          been able to compensated for.

          Yet, many EKists refuse to see
          this reality and hold Klemp
          responsible. HK's ploy is telling
          them that it's all a "test" and
          to be patient and detached
          when, in truth, it's all a "trap."

          There are many 7ths who have
          had their 7th Initiation for 25
          years! Why? Klemp is playing
          with them and they've got too
          much time, energy, money, status,
          EK friends and history invested
          to leave. It's all they know. It's
          pitiful, and the longer and higher
          they are the less free they are.
          But, they are good actors and,
          like Klemp, have learned how
          to play the game... follow the
          leader.

          Prometheus

          Janice wrote:
          Thank all of you for the interesting reading. I think it would be cool if klemp keeps tightening the screws. Hopefully, it will only drive more away. So many of you had a lot more time than I did in eckankar. I really had a hard time dealing with HI attitudes from day one. Reading what you have to say explains a lot of things for me. I appreciate it very much.


          Non ekchains wrote:
          It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

          Non ;)

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Hello All,
          > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
          > Letter I've read that
          > Klemp still needs to
          > update his Guidelines
          > for the H.I.s in the
          > field and chastise
          > those who are slow
          > to get with the program.
          >
          > Many long-time H.I.s
          > want the freedom
          > of Soul to be more
          > individualistic,
          > spontaneous, and
          > creative by thinking
          > they (Soul) can operate
          > outside-of-the-box,
          > thus, being channels
          > for the ECK. Klemp
          > has previously stated
          > that he's imperfect,
          > but that's not the case
          > with the ECK, correct?
          >
          > Why, then, shouldn't
          > their current (Present)
          > Inner EK Guidance be
          > followed versus that
          > of outer set-in-stone
          > ESC Guidelines printed
          > in the Past and approved
          > by a committee of imperfect
          > people on a plane ruled
          > by the KAL?
          >
          > H.I.s still haven't learned
          > that it doesn't work
          > that way in Klemp's
          > version of ECKankar.
          > It's a hierarchy where
          > everything is spelled
          > out and controlled
          > by him and his secret
          > RESA police and that
          > all field work must be
          > approved of first and
          > follow the current
          > Guidelines.
          >
          > Many inexperienced
          > EKists like the idea of
          > being told how to do
          > this or that and what
          > approved books to use
          > and what to say and
          > other details to make
          > the promotion of
          > Eckankar easier.
          >
          > But the real point the
          > ESC (Klemp) is making
          > is to have EK PR more
          > consistent and cookie
          > cutter looking/sounding
          > for the public.
          >
          > Plus, the EK Guidelines
          > are like following a
          > recipe set-in-stone
          > that disregards individual
          > or regional tastes and
          > disallows any additions
          > or omissions of other
          > ingredients, methods,
          > and/or spices.
          >
          > Klemp's foretold admonishments
          > are about H.I.s resisting
          > change. They "rock the
          > boat" out of "fear" and
          > that's "it's all about fear."
          > That "they huddle in packs"
          > and "reinforce in each other
          > a group's opposition to
          > anything new." Strange
          > that Klemp's H.I.s are
          > subject to fear since he's
          > supposed to protect them!
          >
          > However, the real 'change'
          > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
          > Klemp's nonsense and
          > heavy handed control tactics.
          > Many H.I.s, however, chose
          > the Freedom of Soul versus
          > being bound to dogma.
          > HK side-steps delivering
          > on his promises of protection
          > and never has anything
          > profound to share. And,
          > where are those Higher
          > Initiations that are, supposedly,
          > yardsticks in measuring
          > Consciousness and Spiritual
          > Growth? Klemp is playing
          > the long-con and is, thus,
          > stingy and self-serving.
          >
          > Harold goes on to say that
          > these H.I.s are "obstructions
          > on the path to God instead
          > of being stepping stones."
          > Apparently, being creative
          > and spontaneous and
          > following "Inner Nudges"
          > and/or "Signs" are not
          > permitted if it conflicts
          > with the LEM's outer,
          > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
          >
          > The LEM states that, "We
          > are here to learn." However,
          > what is it that Klemp "learns"
          > from others since he never
          > listens? He's the Top goD
          > and doesn't partake in
          > two-way dialogues with
          > those under his authority.
          >
          > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
          > and unloving as he continues
          > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
          > believe that if they sit still
          > and breathe only enough to
          > sustain life that they may
          > well dodge the lightning
          > strikes of irksome change."
          > Is that a threat? HK sounds
          > like KAL! However, by doing
          > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
          > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
          > Don't EKists still die of all
          > sorts of illnesses and situations
          > that could have be averted
          > if they had gotten proper
          > and immediate care? Sure!
          > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
          > ECKists and his veiled threats
          > are meaningless... unless
          > you've given this Black
          > Magician power over you!
          >
          > But, it seems that HK
          > has something else stuck
          > in his craw. It seems to
          > me that Klemp doesn't
          > like his 7ths just sitting
          > still and Contemplating
          > or HUing, and enjoying
          > life. But why shouldn't
          > they take it easy after
          > 40 years of doing PR
          > work for Eckankar!
          >
          > So, what does Klemp
          > the All compassionate,
          > loving, positive, and
          > empathetic icon of EK
          > conclude?
          >
          > "An H.I. who blatantly
          > refuses to adhere to
          > the ECK Guidelines
          > needs to be addressed
          > on the issues." Hmmmm.
          > I wonder what that
          > really means? Well,
          > unless you're already
          > a 7th you can kiss that
          > next initiation good-bye
          > for like 10-20 years!
          >
          > Klemp continues to say,
          > "These are big stakes!
          > Continued refusal means
          > it's time for a replacement
          > to step in. A change is
          > due. Change. isn't it
          > funny how we have come
          > full circle?" No! It's not
          > really funny. Klemp
          > abuses the concept
          > of "change" and makes
          > it into a misnomer.
          >
          > What "changes" are there
          > in Eckankar? The same
          > old things are merely
          > revisited, updated, dusted
          > off and made to seem
          > "new." It's all a facade,
          > smoke and mirrors, and
          > a game of pretend by
          > creating brightly colored
          > straws to grab at and
          > cling to when drowning.
          >
          > Too bad that EKists are
          > so deluded and needy
          > and aren't able to read
          > between the lines and
          > see the real truth behind
          > Klemp's words and methods.
          >
          > Prometheus
        • Janice Pfeiffer
          Do you think many new members are being attracted to eckankar at this point?  I hope the org is drying up from a lack of new members.  When one cult gets
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Do you think many new members are being attracted to eckankar at this point?  I hope the org is drying up from a lack of new members.  When one cult gets negative exposure hopefully they all suffer.  Scientology has been making the news with their antics a lot in the past year and their membership seems to be suffering.  I do so wish the same for eckankar. 
             
            When I first joined this site, I still felt some anger toward eckankar and myself also.  It wasn't easy for me to accept that I fell for it.  Since reading the postings here, I feel a lot better about myself and less angry about eckankar. 
             
            I would like to see them fall because I don't want others to go through what I did but I don't feel a need to do anything actively about it where as previously I was just itching to find a group that might sue the pants off of them.  My reading the postings has mellowed me about the whole thing and I see it as a very good thing.  I feel some what indifferent about it now.  However I might feel differently if I thought they were growing profusely. 
             
            I don't have as much time invested in eckankar as a lot of you do and I wasn't in a position to see as much as a lot of you.  Again, I am grateful for all I have learned here.  I feel this site is the most helpful thing I have found since leaving eckankar.  I did find others but I didn't learn the kinds of things I needed to know to put the whole experience in proper perspective.  After reading Ford Johnson's book, I visited his site some but I was disappointed that he seemed to be modeling his site after eckankar somewhat although he was posting stuff that appeared to be original. 
             
            So I hope you know you are providing a very valuable place for those who have left the org and need to get a grip on things and  if some one who might have an interest in eckankar, reads the postings here, it most definitely would  keep them from joining.  Do keep up the good work. 
             
            Have a good night all. 

            --- On Thu, 12/13/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 11:28 PM

             
            Hello Janice,
            Klemp will keep tightening
            the screws and dangling
            the initiation carrot. It's his
            M.O. However, he doesn't
            care about the repercussions
            because he's financially
            solid and secure with his
            book royalties and retirement
            plan. But he does still like
            the attention. Eckankar, and
            EK writing, is Klemp's hobby.

            It's interesting if you look
            at some pics of the H.I.s at
            Retreats or at their H.I. Meetings
            you might notice there are
            many elderly (70 years plus)
            H.I.s. Those age 60 and older
            probably make up 75% of
            the total number of EK Higher
            Initiates.

            Klemp, by slowing down initiations
            and placing the glass ceiling
            on the 7th has discouraged
            many H.I.s. Of course there
            are some 8ths and a few 9ths
            but these numbers are nowhere
            what they should be and don't
            reflect the dogma or goals of
            Twitchell. The frustration with
            Klemp's stinginess in doling
            out initiations via his narcissism
            has done more harm to Eckankar
            maintaining membership numbers
            than any of their PR tactics have
            been able to compensated for.

            Yet, many EKists refuse to see
            this reality and hold Klemp
            responsible. HK's ploy is telling
            them that it's all a "test" and
            to be patient and detached
            when, in truth, it's all a "trap."

            There are many 7ths who have
            had their 7th Initiation for 25
            years! Why? Klemp is playing
            with them and they've got too
            much time, energy, money, status,
            EK friends and history invested
            to leave. It's all they know. It's
            pitiful, and the longer and higher
            they are the less free they are.
            But, they are good actors and,
            like Klemp, have learned how
            to play the game... follow the
            leader.

            Prometheus

            Janice wrote:
            Thank all of you for the interesting reading. I think it would be cool if klemp keeps tightening the screws. Hopefully, it will only drive more away. So many of you had a lot more time than I did in eckankar. I really had a hard time dealing with HI attitudes from day one. Reading what you have to say explains a lot of things for me. I appreciate it very much.

            Non ekchains wrote:
            It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

            Non ;)

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello All,
            > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
            > Letter I've read that
            > Klemp still needs to
            > update his Guidelines
            > for the H.I.s in the
            > field and chastise
            > those who are slow
            > to get with the program.
            >
            > Many long-time H.I.s
            > want the freedom
            > of Soul to be more
            > individualistic,
            > spontaneous, and
            > creative by thinking
            > they (Soul) can operate
            > outside-of-the-box,
            > thus, being channels
            > for the ECK. Klemp
            > has previously stated
            > that he's imperfect,
            > but that's not the case
            > with the ECK, correct?
            >
            > Why, then, shouldn't
            > their current (Present)
            > Inner EK Guidance be
            > followed versus that
            > of outer set-in-stone
            > ESC Guidelines printed
            > in the Past and approved
            > by a committee of imperfect
            > people on a plane ruled
            > by the KAL?
            >
            > H.I.s still haven't learned
            > that it doesn't work
            > that way in Klemp's
            > version of ECKankar.
            > It's a hierarchy where
            > everything is spelled
            > out and controlled
            > by him and his secret
            > RESA police and that
            > all field work must be
            > approved of first and
            > follow the current
            > Guidelines.
            >
            > Many inexperienced
            > EKists like the idea of
            > being told how to do
            > this or that and what
            > approved books to use
            > and what to say and
            > other details to make
            > the promotion of
            > Eckankar easier.
            >
            > But the real point the
            > ESC (Klemp) is making
            > is to have EK PR more
            > consistent and cookie
            > cutter looking/sounding
            > for the public.
            >
            > Plus, the EK Guidelines
            > are like following a
            > recipe set-in-stone
            > that disregards individual
            > or regional tastes and
            > disallows any additions
            > or omissions of other
            > ingredients, methods,
            > and/or spices.
            >
            > Klemp's foretold admonishments
            > are about H.I.s resisting
            > change. They "rock the
            > boat" out of "fear" and
            > that's "it's all about fear."
            > That "they huddle in packs"
            > and "reinforce in each other
            > a group's opposition to
            > anything new." Strange
            > that Klemp's H.I.s are
            > subject to fear since he's
            > supposed to protect them!
            >
            > However, the real 'change'
            > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
            > Klemp's nonsense and
            > heavy handed control tactics.
            > Many H.I.s, however, chose
            > the Freedom of Soul versus
            > being bound to dogma.
            > HK side-steps delivering
            > on his promises of protection
            > and never has anything
            > profound to share. And,
            > where are those Higher
            > Initiations that are, supposedly,
            > yardsticks in measuring
            > Consciousness and Spiritual
            > Growth? Klemp is playing
            > the long-con and is, thus,
            > stingy and self-serving.
            >
            > Harold goes on to say that
            > these H.I.s are "obstructions
            > on the path to God instead
            > of being stepping stones."
            > Apparently, being creative
            > and spontaneous and
            > following "Inner Nudges"
            > and/or "Signs" are not
            > permitted if it conflicts
            > with the LEM's outer,
            > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
            >
            > The LEM states that, "We
            > are here to learn." However,
            > what is it that Klemp "learns"
            > from others since he never
            > listens? He's the Top goD
            > and doesn't partake in
            > two-way dialogues with
            > those under his authority.
            >
            > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
            > and unloving as he continues
            > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
            > believe that if they sit still
            > and breathe only enough to
            > sustain life that they may
            > well dodge the lightning
            > strikes of irksome change."
            > Is that a threat? HK sounds
            > like KAL! However, by doing
            > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
            > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
            > Don't EKists still die of all
            > sorts of illnesses and situations
            > that could have be averted
            > if they had gotten proper
            > and immediate care? Sure!
            > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
            > ECKists and his veiled threats
            > are meaningless... unless
            > you've given this Black
            > Magician power over you!
            >
            > But, it seems that HK
            > has something else stuck
            > in his craw. It seems to
            > me that Klemp doesn't
            > like his 7ths just sitting
            > still and Contemplating
            > or HUing, and enjoying
            > life. But why shouldn't
            > they take it easy after
            > 40 years of doing PR
            > work for Eckankar!
            >
            > So, what does Klemp
            > the All compassionate,
            > loving, positive, and
            > empathetic icon of EK
            > conclude?
            >
            > "An H.I. who blatantly
            > refuses to adhere to
            > the ECK Guidelines
            > needs to be addressed
            > on the issues." Hmmmm.
            > I wonder what that
            > really means? Well,
            > unless you're already
            > a 7th you can kiss that
            > next initiation good-bye
            > for like 10-20 years!
            >
            > Klemp continues to say,
            > "These are big stakes!
            > Continued refusal means
            > it's time for a replacement
            > to step in. A change is
            > due. Change. isn't it
            > funny how we have come
            > full circle?" No! It's not
            > really funny. Klemp
            > abuses the concept
            > of "change" and makes
            > it into a misnomer.
            >
            > What "changes" are there
            > in Eckankar? The same
            > old things are merely
            > revisited, updated, dusted
            > off and made to seem
            > "new." It's all a facade,
            > smoke and mirrors, and
            > a game of pretend by
            > creating brightly colored
            > straws to grab at and
            > cling to when drowning.
            >
            > Too bad that EKists are
            > so deluded and needy
            > and aren't able to read
            > between the lines and
            > see the real truth behind
            > Klemp's words and methods.
            >
            > Prometheus

          • Janice Pfeiffer
            I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn t help but think where is the Love .  But I was
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn't help but think "where is the Love".  But I was willing to think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly spiritually advanced people could not be unloving.  They would say awful things about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu sings and such like they were all good buddies.  I am a loyal type person to those who are my friends and those I think well of.  I could not understand these things coming from so called well developed people.  I even think a male that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at times although I don't know that to be a fact.  Also, some of the other females would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group.  I got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very disrespectful.  I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I could not form friendships with any of them.  It was what I read that held me in eckankar.  The quality of the people in the center was terrible.  It bothered me so bad that I sought a spiritual session.  I told the adviser what I was thinking.  Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself shocking.  She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and she preferred not to be involved with their activities.  It only made me feel more confused as a fairly new person.  I would perform tasks anytime I was asked but I started avoiding the center also.  Finally, seeing the truth about the teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away.  I decided that being a long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion.  it seems they open their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no matter who it was about.  Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be what they were.  It was crazy; all of it. 
              --- On Thu, 12/13/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

              From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
              To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 2:03 PM

               
              I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

              There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

              Russ




              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

               
              Hello Non eckchains and All,
              What has me ROFLMAO is
              that Klemp has enough of
              a problem that he used it
              in the ASK The MASTER
              section of the H.I. Letter!
              And, it was the only question!
              They had, supposedly, an
              H.I. write-in and point out
              the problem. No name given.

              I remember when I had
              to deal with some older
              H.I.s (former RESAs) in
              coordinator and director
              positions and it was
              impossible to get this
              one to follow the Guidelines
              on EK Worship Services
              (EWS). Many long-time
              H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
              Guidelines and my
              RESA turned a blind-
              eye to it all. We had
              so many former RESAs
              in volunteer positions
              that it was impossible
              to get them on the
              same page and to follow
              procedures. I think
              that some were just
              burned out and tired
              of Klemp's B.S. but
              didn't want to leave.
              Maybe they had too
              many friendships to
              lose. Plus, let's face
              it. A lot of these people
              are losers in the real
              world but are big shots
              in Eckankar. Those
              Higher Initiations are
              a big deal to the ego!

              Prometheus


              "Non" eckchains wrote:
              It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
              don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
              offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
              over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
              even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

              Non ;)

              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hello All,
              > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
              > Letter I've read that
              > Klemp still needs to
              > update his Guidelines
              > for the H.I.s in the
              > field and chastise
              > those who are slow
              > to get with the program.
              >
              > Many long-time H.I.s
              > want the freedom
              > of Soul to be more
              > individualistic,
              > spontaneous, and
              > creative by thinking
              > they (Soul) can operate
              > outside-of-the-box,
              > thus, being channels
              > for the ECK. Klemp
              > has previously stated
              > that he's imperfect,
              > but that's not the case
              > with the ECK, correct?
              >
              > Why, then, shouldn't
              > their current (Present)
              > Inner EK Guidance be
              > followed versus that
              > of outer set-in-stone
              > ESC Guidelines printed
              > in the Past and approved
              > by a committee of imperfect
              > people on a plane ruled
              > by the KAL?
              >
              > H.I.s still haven't learned
              > that freedom of expression
              > doesn't work in Klemp's
              > version of ECKankar.
              > It's a hierarchy where
              > everything is spelled
              > out and controlled
              > by him and his secret
              > RESA police, plus, all
              > field work must be
              > approved via the
              > current Guidelines.
              >
              > Many inexperienced
              > EKists like the idea of
              > being told how to do
              > this or that and what
              > approved books to use
              > and what to say and
              > other details to make
              > the promotion of
              > Eckankar easier.
              >
              > But the real point the
              > ESC (Klemp) is making
              > is to have EK PR more
              > consistent and cookie
              > cutter looking/sounding
              > for the public.
              >
              > Plus, the EK Guidelines
              > are like following a
              > recipe set-in-stone
              > that disregards individual
              > or regional tastes and
              > disallows any additions
              > or omissions of other
              > ingredients, methods,
              > and/or spices.
              >
              > Klemp's foretold admonishments
              > are about H.I.s resisting
              > change. He says they "rock
              > the boat" out of "fear" and
              > that "it's all about fear."
              > Also, "they huddle in packs"
              > and "reinforce in each other
              > a group's opposition to
              > anything new." Strange
              > that Klemp's H.I.s are
              > subject to fear since he's
              > supposed to protect them!
              > This is how the KAL works.
              > Klemp is his agent.
              >
              > However, the real 'change'
              > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
              > Klemp's nonsense and
              > heavy handed control tactics.
              > Many H.I.s, however, chose
              > the Freedom of Soul versus
              > being bound to dogma.
              > HK side-steps delivering
              > on his promises of protection
              > and never has anything
              > profound to share. And,
              > where are those Higher
              > Initiations that are, supposedly,
              > yardsticks in measuring
              > Consciousness and Spiritual
              > Growth? Klemp is playing
              > the long-con and is, thus,
              > stingy and self-serving.
              >
              > Harold goes on to say that
              > these H.I.s are "obstructions
              > on the path to God instead
              > of being stepping stones."
              > Apparently, being creative
              > and spontaneous and
              > following "Inner Nudges"
              > and/or "Signs" are not
              > permitted if it conflicts
              > with the LEM's outer,
              > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
              >
              > The LEM states that, "We
              > are here to learn." However,
              > what is it that Klemp "learns"
              > from others since he never
              > listens? He's the Top goD
              > and doesn't partake in
              > two-way dialogues with
              > those under his authority.
              >
              > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
              > and unloving as he continues
              > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
              > believe that if they sit still
              > and breathe only enough to
              > sustain life that they may
              > well dodge the lightning
              > strikes of irksome change."
              > Is that a threat? HK sounds
              > like KAL! However, by doing
              > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
              > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
              > Don't EKists still die of all
              > sorts of illnesses and situations
              > that could have be averted
              > if they had gotten proper
              > and immediate care? Sure!
              > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
              > ECKists and his veiled threats
              > are meaningless... unless
              > you've given this Black
              > Magician power over you!
              >
              > But, it seems that HK
              > has something else stuck
              > in his craw. It seems to
              > me that Klemp doesn't
              > like his 7ths just sitting
              > still and Contemplating
              > or HUing, and enjoying
              > life. But why shouldn't
              > they take it easy after
              > 40 years of doing PR
              > work for Eckankar!
              >
              > So, what does Klemp
              > the All compassionate,
              > loving, positive, and
              > empathetic icon of EK
              > conclude?
              >
              > "An H.I. who blatantly
              > refuses to adhere to
              > the ECK Guidelines
              > needs to be addressed
              > on the issues." Hmmmm.
              > I wonder what that
              > really means? Well,
              > unless you're already
              > a 7th you can kiss that
              > next initiation good-bye
              > for like 10-20 years!
              >
              > Klemp continues to say,
              > "These are big stakes!
              > Continued refusal means
              > it's time for a replacement
              > to step in. A change is
              > due. Change. isn't it
              > funny how we have come
              > full circle?" No! It's not
              > really funny. Klemp
              > abuses the concept
              > of "change" and makes
              > it into a misnomer.
              >
              > What "changes" are there
              > in Eckankar? The same
              > old things are merely
              > revisited, updated, dusted
              > off and made to seem
              > "new." It's all a facade,
              > smoke and mirrors, and
              > a game of pretend by
              > creating brightly colored
              > straws to grab at and
              > cling to when drowning.
              >
              > Too bad that EKists are
              > so deluded and needy
              > and aren't able to read
              > between the lines and
              > see the real truth behind
              > Klemp's words and methods.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >



            • Russ Rodnick
              You ve seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a very
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love. 

                Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers. 

                Good to be away from it. 


                From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 10:42 PM
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                 
                I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn't help but think "where is the Love".  But I was willing to think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly spiritually advanced people could not be unloving.  They would say awful things about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu sings and such like they were all good buddies.  I am a loyal type person to those who are my friends and those I think well of.  I could not understand these things coming from so called well developed people.  I even think a male that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at times although I don't know that to be a fact.  Also, some of the other females would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group.  I got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very disrespectful.  I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I could not form friendships with any of them.  It was what I read that held me in eckankar.  The quality of the people in the center was terrible.  It bothered me so bad that I sought a spiritual session.  I told the adviser what I was thinking.  Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself shocking.  She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and she preferred not to be involved with their activities.  It only made me feel more confused as a fairly new person.  I would perform tasks anytime I was asked but I started avoiding the center also.  Finally, seeing the truth about the teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away.  I decided that being a long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion.  it seems they open their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no matter who it was about.  Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be what they were.  It was crazy; all of it. 
                --- On Thu, 12/13/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 2:03 PM

                 
                I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

                There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

                Russ




                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                 
                Hello Non eckchains and All,
                What has me ROFLMAO is
                that Klemp has enough of
                a problem that he used it
                in the ASK The MASTER
                section of the H.I. Letter!
                And, it was the only question!
                They had, supposedly, an
                H.I. write-in and point out
                the problem. No name given.

                I remember when I had
                to deal with some older
                H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                coordinator and director
                positions and it was
                impossible to get this
                one to follow the Guidelines
                on EK Worship Services
                (EWS). Many long-time
                H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                Guidelines and my
                RESA turned a blind-
                eye to it all. We had
                so many former RESAs
                in volunteer positions
                that it was impossible
                to get them on the
                same page and to follow
                procedures. I think
                that some were just
                burned out and tired
                of Klemp's B.S. but
                didn't want to leave.
                Maybe they had too
                many friendships to
                lose. Plus, let's face
                it. A lot of these people
                are losers in the real
                world but are big shots
                in Eckankar. Those
                Higher Initiations are
                a big deal to the ego!

                Prometheus


                "Non" eckchains wrote:
                It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                Non ;)

                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello All,
                > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                > Letter I've read that
                > Klemp still needs to
                > update his Guidelines
                > for the H.I.s in the
                > field and chastise
                > those who are slow
                > to get with the program.
                >
                > Many long-time H.I.s
                > want the freedom
                > of Soul to be more
                > individualistic,
                > spontaneous, and
                > creative by thinking
                > they (Soul) can operate
                > outside-of-the-box,
                > thus, being channels
                > for the ECK. Klemp
                > has previously stated
                > that he's imperfect,
                > but that's not the case
                > with the ECK, correct?
                >
                > Why, then, shouldn't
                > their current (Present)
                > Inner EK Guidance be
                > followed versus that
                > of outer set-in-stone
                > ESC Guidelines printed
                > in the Past and approved
                > by a committee of imperfect
                > people on a plane ruled
                > by the KAL?
                >
                > H.I.s still haven't learned
                > that freedom of expression
                > doesn't work in Klemp's
                > version of ECKankar.
                > It's a hierarchy where
                > everything is spelled
                > out and controlled
                > by him and his secret
                > RESA police, plus, all
                > field work must be
                > approved via the
                > current Guidelines.
                >
                > Many inexperienced
                > EKists like the idea of
                > being told how to do
                > this or that and what
                > approved books to use
                > and what to say and
                > other details to make
                > the promotion of
                > Eckankar easier.
                >
                > But the real point the
                > ESC (Klemp) is making
                > is to have EK PR more
                > consistent and cookie
                > cutter looking/sounding
                > for the public.
                >
                > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                > are like following a
                > recipe set-in-stone
                > that disregards individual
                > or regional tastes and
                > disallows any additions
                > or omissions of other
                > ingredients, methods,
                > and/or spices.
                >
                > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                > are about H.I.s resisting
                > change. He says they "rock
                > the boat" out of "fear" and
                > that "it's all about fear."
                > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                > and "reinforce in each other
                > a group's opposition to
                > anything new." Strange
                > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                > subject to fear since he's
                > supposed to protect them!
                > This is how the KAL works.
                > Klemp is his agent.
                >
                > However, the real 'change'
                > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                > Klemp's nonsense and
                > heavy handed control tactics.
                > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                > the Freedom of Soul versus
                > being bound to dogma.
                > HK side-steps delivering
                > on his promises of protection
                > and never has anything
                > profound to share. And,
                > where are those Higher
                > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                > yardsticks in measuring
                > Consciousness and Spiritual
                > Growth? Klemp is playing
                > the long-con and is, thus,
                > stingy and self-serving.
                >
                > Harold goes on to say that
                > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                > on the path to God instead
                > of being stepping stones."
                > Apparently, being creative
                > and spontaneous and
                > following "Inner Nudges"
                > and/or "Signs" are not
                > permitted if it conflicts
                > with the LEM's outer,
                > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                >
                > The LEM states that, "We
                > are here to learn." However,
                > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                > from others since he never
                > listens? He's the Top goD
                > and doesn't partake in
                > two-way dialogues with
                > those under his authority.
                >
                > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                > and unloving as he continues
                > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                > believe that if they sit still
                > and breathe only enough to
                > sustain life that they may
                > well dodge the lightning
                > strikes of irksome change."
                > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                > like KAL! However, by doing
                > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                > Don't EKists still die of all
                > sorts of illnesses and situations
                > that could have be averted
                > if they had gotten proper
                > and immediate care? Sure!
                > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                > ECKists and his veiled threats
                > are meaningless... unless
                > you've given this Black
                > Magician power over you!
                >
                > But, it seems that HK
                > has something else stuck
                > in his craw. It seems to
                > me that Klemp doesn't
                > like his 7ths just sitting
                > still and Contemplating
                > or HUing, and enjoying
                > life. But why shouldn't
                > they take it easy after
                > 40 years of doing PR
                > work for Eckankar!
                >
                > So, what does Klemp
                > the All compassionate,
                > loving, positive, and
                > empathetic icon of EK
                > conclude?
                >
                > "An H.I. who blatantly
                > refuses to adhere to
                > the ECK Guidelines
                > needs to be addressed
                > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                > I wonder what that
                > really means? Well,
                > unless you're already
                > a 7th you can kiss that
                > next initiation good-bye
                > for like 10-20 years!
                >
                > Klemp continues to say,
                > "These are big stakes!
                > Continued refusal means
                > it's time for a replacement
                > to step in. A change is
                > due. Change. isn't it
                > funny how we have come
                > full circle?" No! It's not
                > really funny. Klemp
                > abuses the concept
                > of "change" and makes
                > it into a misnomer.
                >
                > What "changes" are there
                > in Eckankar? The same
                > old things are merely
                > revisited, updated, dusted
                > off and made to seem
                > "new." It's all a facade,
                > smoke and mirrors, and
                > a game of pretend by
                > creating brightly colored
                > straws to grab at and
                > cling to when drowning.
                >
                > Too bad that EKists are
                > so deluded and needy
                > and aren't able to read
                > between the lines and
                > see the real truth behind
                > Klemp's words and methods.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >





              • prometheus_973
                Hello Janice, Russ and All, Yes, some EK Volunteers in Satsang Society settler and explorer positions at the EK Centers would trip over their egos and go
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                  Yes, some EK Volunteers
                  in Satsang Society "settler"
                  and "explorer" positions at
                  the EK Centers would trip
                  over their egos and go on
                  power trips. Many seemed
                  cliquish and would huddle
                  together. Then, again, some
                  weren't all that friendly or
                  were very introverted and
                  shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                  including the clerics, to
                  greet and talk to all of the
                  new or seldom seen faces
                  that showed up. Many
                  only saw other Eckists at
                  the monthly EWS and this
                  was a time to catch up on
                  things. This is why I'd
                  suggest going to lunch
                  after the EWS and socializing.

                  Many Eckists are Introverts.
                  True? I think so!

                  Klemp's volunteer duties
                  and requirements for Eckists
                  means that they must take
                  on extroverted roles in
                  order to become H.I.s.
                  Eckists must force themselves,
                  against their innate natures,
                  to become extroverted and
                  egocentric. These leadership
                  requirements create conflict,
                  stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                  Thus, this imbalance that
                  Klemp has created and
                  reenforces aids him in
                  the brainwashing of his
                  flock to have programmed
                  religious faith, beliefs, and
                  mystical experiences. But,
                  this has its toll and is why
                  many long-time H.I.s choose
                  to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                  and his anal control tactics.

                  Sometimes, at special
                  harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                  and mini retreats the
                  long-time H.I.s, former
                  RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                  members would gather
                  around and gossip about
                  those absent or present.
                  Only, it wasn't seen as
                  gossip but rationalized
                  as more of an evaluative/
                  investigative discussion
                  for possible initiation
                  recommendation or for
                  a Satsang position appointment.
                  They wanted to know,
                  from sources who knew
                  them, if there were problems
                  with these EKists and, if
                  so, what the specific details
                  were. It was all ego driven
                  and subjective because we
                  were all volunteers and
                  had family and personal
                  lives too. But, it did weed
                  out those who weren't as
                  well indoctrinated....
                  supposedly. But, HK's eck
                  crap (busy work) was pretty
                  much always a waste of
                  time so, in the long run,
                  enthusiasm was probably
                  more important than acting
                  the part. The Satsang positions
                  and duties kept people
                  busy, gave them a purpose
                  and made them feel good,
                  although, very stressed out.

                  The Initiation game has made
                  Eckists struggle with denying
                  how much more they want of
                  this magical, imaginary, elixir.

                  Janice, that was crazy, too,
                  that an ESA told you that the
                  people at the EK Center were
                  crazy. That just isn't done
                  and is part of HK's agenda
                  of Silence and retraining.

                  There's that old Buddha quote
                  that Eckists sing and talk about
                  (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                  and this is supposed to keep
                  ECKists quiet or else they will
                  sometimes get reported:
                  "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                  this I ask myself before I
                  speak my mind." Interestingly,
                  following this criteria is very
                  subjective and could or would
                  Not, necessarily, stifle most
                  conservations.

                  "It's a beautiful day!" This
                  may be "true" for you and
                  for most people but not
                  not for all people. And, is
                  it "necessary" to exclaim
                  this? And, is it "kind" to say
                  this within earshot of people
                  who aren't feeling well or
                  who can't enjoy the day?
                  Yet, it's used by Klemp
                  to keep the critics of his
                  policies and of his H.I.s
                  to a minimum.

                  Prometheus


                  Russ Rodnick wrote:
                  You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                  considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                  very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                  over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                  by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                  to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                  very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                  rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                  handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.

                  Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                  communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.

                  Good to be away from it.

                  Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                  I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                  beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                  think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                  spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                  about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                  sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                  those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                  these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                  that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                  times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                  would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                  got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                  her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                  thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                  disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                  could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                  eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                  so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                  thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                  shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                  she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                  more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                  but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                  teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                  long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                  their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                  matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                  what they were. It was crazy; all of it.

                  Russ wrote:
                  I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                  fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                  up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                  made him so popular in the eck community.

                  There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                  self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                  present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                  things.

                  Russ



                  prometheus wrote:
                  Hello Non eckchains and All,
                  What has me ROFLMAO is
                  that Klemp has enough of
                  a problem that he used it
                  in the ASK The MASTER
                  section of the H.I. Letter!
                  And, it was the only question!
                  They had, supposedly, an
                  H.I. write-in and point out
                  the problem. No name given.

                  I remember when I had
                  to deal with some older
                  H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                  coordinator and director
                  positions and it was
                  impossible to get this
                  one to follow the Guidelines
                  on EK Worship Services
                  (EWS). Many long-time
                  H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                  Guidelines and my
                  RESA turned a blind-
                  eye to it all. We had
                  so many former RESAs
                  in volunteer positions
                  that it was impossible
                  to get them on the
                  same page and to follow
                  procedures. I think
                  that some were just
                  burned out and tired
                  of Klemp's B.S. but
                  didn't want to leave.
                  Maybe they had too
                  many friendships to
                  lose. Plus, let's face
                  it. A lot of these people
                  are losers in the real
                  world but are big shots
                  in Eckankar. Those
                  Higher Initiations are
                  a big deal to the ego!

                  Prometheus


                  "Non" eckchains wrote:
                  It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                  don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                  offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                  over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                  even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                  Non ;)

                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello All,
                  > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                  > Letter I've read that
                  > Klemp still needs to
                  > update his Guidelines
                  > for the H.I.s in the
                  > field and chastise
                  > those who are slow
                  > to get with the program.
                  >
                  > Many long-time H.I.s
                  > want the freedom
                  > of Soul to be more
                  > individualistic,
                  > spontaneous, and
                  > creative by thinking
                  > they (Soul) can operate
                  > outside-of-the-box,
                  > thus, being channels
                  > for the ECK. Klemp
                  > has previously stated
                  > that he's imperfect,
                  > but that's not the case
                  > with the ECK, correct?
                  >
                  > Why, then, shouldn't
                  > their current (Present)
                  > Inner EK Guidance be
                  > followed versus that
                  > of outer set-in-stone
                  > ESC Guidelines printed
                  > in the Past and approved
                  > by a committee of imperfect
                  > people on a plane ruled
                  > by the KAL?
                  >
                  > H.I.s still haven't learned
                  > that freedom of expression
                  > doesn't work in Klemp's
                  > version of ECKankar.
                  > It's a hierarchy where
                  > everything is spelled
                  > out and controlled
                  > by him and his secret
                  > RESA police, plus, all
                  > field work must be
                  > approved via the
                  > current Guidelines.
                  >
                  > Many inexperienced
                  > EKists like the idea of
                  > being told how to do
                  > this or that and what
                  > approved books to use
                  > and what to say and
                  > other details to make
                  > the promotion of
                  > Eckankar easier.
                  >
                  > But the real point the
                  > ESC (Klemp) is making
                  > is to have EK PR more
                  > consistent and cookie
                  > cutter looking/sounding
                  > for the public.
                  >
                  > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                  > are like following a
                  > recipe set-in-stone
                  > that disregards individual
                  > or regional tastes and
                  > disallows any additions
                  > or omissions of other
                  > ingredients, methods,
                  > and/or spices.
                  >
                  > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                  > are about H.I.s resisting
                  > change. He says they "rock
                  > the boat" out of "fear" and
                  > that "it's all about fear."
                  > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                  > and "reinforce in each other
                  > a group's opposition to
                  > anything new." Strange
                  > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                  > subject to fear since he's
                  > supposed to protect them!
                  > This is how the KAL works.
                  > Klemp is his agent.
                  >
                  > However, the real 'change'
                  > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                  > Klemp's nonsense and
                  > heavy handed control tactics.
                  > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                  > the Freedom of Soul versus
                  > being bound to dogma.
                  > HK side-steps delivering
                  > on his promises of protection
                  > and never has anything
                  > profound to share. And,
                  > where are those Higher
                  > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                  > yardsticks in measuring
                  > Consciousness and Spiritual
                  > Growth? Klemp is playing
                  > the long-con and is, thus,
                  > stingy and self-serving.
                  >
                  > Harold goes on to say that
                  > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                  > on the path to God instead
                  > of being stepping stones."
                  > Apparently, being creative
                  > and spontaneous and
                  > following "Inner Nudges"
                  > and/or "Signs" are not
                  > permitted if it conflicts
                  > with the LEM's outer,
                  > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                  >
                  > The LEM states that, "We
                  > are here to learn." However,
                  > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                  > from others since he never
                  > listens? He's the Top goD
                  > and doesn't partake in
                  > two-way dialogues with
                  > those under his authority.
                  >
                  > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                  > and unloving as he continues
                  > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                  > believe that if they sit still
                  > and breathe only enough to
                  > sustain life that they may
                  > well dodge the lightning
                  > strikes of irksome change."
                  > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                  > like KAL! However, by doing
                  > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                  > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                  > Don't EKists still die of all
                  > sorts of illnesses and situations
                  > that could have be averted
                  > if they had gotten proper
                  > and immediate care? Sure!
                  > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                  > ECKists and his veiled threats
                  > are meaningless... unless
                  > you've given this Black
                  > Magician power over you!
                  >
                  > But, it seems that HK
                  > has something else stuck
                  > in his craw. It seems to
                  > me that Klemp doesn't
                  > like his 7ths just sitting
                  > still and Contemplating
                  > or HUing, and enjoying
                  > life. But why shouldn't
                  > they take it easy after
                  > 40 years of doing PR
                  > work for Eckankar!
                  >
                  > So, what does Klemp
                  > the All compassionate,
                  > loving, positive, and
                  > empathetic icon of EK
                  > conclude?
                  >
                  > "An H.I. who blatantly
                  > refuses to adhere to
                  > the ECK Guidelines
                  > needs to be addressed
                  > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                  > I wonder what that
                  > really means? Well,
                  > unless you're already
                  > a 7th you can kiss that
                  > next initiation good-bye
                  > for like 10-20 years!
                  >
                  > Klemp continues to say,
                  > "These are big stakes!
                  > Continued refusal means
                  > it's time for a replacement
                  > to step in. A change is
                  > due. Change. isn't it
                  > funny how we have come
                  > full circle?" No! It's not
                  > really funny. Klemp
                  > abuses the concept
                  > of "change" and makes
                  > it into a misnomer.
                  >
                  > What "changes" are there
                  > in Eckankar? The same
                  > old things are merely
                  > revisited, updated, dusted
                  > off and made to seem
                  > "new." It's all a facade,
                  > smoke and mirrors, and
                  > a game of pretend by
                  > creating brightly colored
                  > straws to grab at and
                  > cling to when drowning.
                  >
                  > Too bad that EKists are
                  > so deluded and needy
                  > and aren't able to read
                  > between the lines and
                  > see the real truth behind
                  > Klemp's words and methods.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                • Janice Pfeiffer
                  I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off.  So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
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                    I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off.  So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar.  I can't see it happening.  The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people. 
                     
                    Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get.  Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations. 
                     
                     I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was.  I just broke contact.  I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me.  I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all. 
                     
                    Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold.  It went in the trash.  This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone.  I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even. 
                     
                    How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else.  From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder.  Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.  Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org.  That is what is so sick about eckankar.  You either become a sheep or a wolf.  I wouldn't be either. 
                     
                    That is why I could not adjust to eckankar.  Seeing it was a freeing experience for me.  It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings.  I threw away all eckankar material.  I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others.  Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar.  Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top.  I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did. 
                     
                    The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving.  I feel pity for them.  A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time.  I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies. 
                     
                    Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth.  Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor.  I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me.  I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being.  Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth.  In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads. 
                     
                    I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual.  No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way.  Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate.  With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this. 
                     
                     I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much.  But maybe it  has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing  their brand of spiritual bondage.  And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord.  Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime. 
                     
                    I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones.  Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar.  I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will. 
                     
                    Eckankar can damn me all it will.  It has no hold on me.  It's even funny that they would do that.  They make a good force for their kal.  Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing.  Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned.  It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things. 
                     
                    Thank you all for being part of my journey.  You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself.  Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar.  That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master.  I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were.  Well, now you are. 
                     
                    Blessings to all of you.   
                     
                    --- On Fri, 12/14/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                    From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                    To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Friday, December 14, 2012, 2:49 PM

                     
                    You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love. 

                    Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers. 

                    Good to be away from it. 


                    From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 10:42 PM
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                     
                    I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn't help but think "where is the Love".  But I was willing to think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly spiritually advanced people could not be unloving.  They would say awful things about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu sings and such like they were all good buddies.  I am a loyal type person to those who are my friends and those I think well of.  I could not understand these things coming from so called well developed people.  I even think a male that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at times although I don't know that to be a fact.  Also, some of the other females would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group.  I got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very disrespectful.  I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I could not form friendships with any of them.  It was what I read that held me in eckankar.  The quality of the people in the center was terrible.  It bothered me so bad that I sought a spiritual session.  I told the adviser what I was thinking.  Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself shocking.  She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and she preferred not to be involved with their activities.  It only made me feel more confused as a fairly new person.  I would perform tasks anytime I was asked but I started avoiding the center also.  Finally, seeing the truth about the teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away.  I decided that being a long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion.  it seems they open their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no matter who it was about.  Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be what they were.  It was crazy; all of it. 
                    --- On Thu, 12/13/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                    From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                    To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 2:03 PM

                     
                    I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

                    There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

                    Russ




                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                     
                    Hello Non eckchains and All,
                    What has me ROFLMAO is
                    that Klemp has enough of
                    a problem that he used it
                    in the ASK The MASTER
                    section of the H.I. Letter!
                    And, it was the only question!
                    They had, supposedly, an
                    H.I. write-in and point out
                    the problem. No name given.

                    I remember when I had
                    to deal with some older
                    H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                    coordinator and director
                    positions and it was
                    impossible to get this
                    one to follow the Guidelines
                    on EK Worship Services
                    (EWS). Many long-time
                    H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                    Guidelines and my
                    RESA turned a blind-
                    eye to it all. We had
                    so many former RESAs
                    in volunteer positions
                    that it was impossible
                    to get them on the
                    same page and to follow
                    procedures. I think
                    that some were just
                    burned out and tired
                    of Klemp's B.S. but
                    didn't want to leave.
                    Maybe they had too
                    many friendships to
                    lose. Plus, let's face
                    it. A lot of these people
                    are losers in the real
                    world but are big shots
                    in Eckankar. Those
                    Higher Initiations are
                    a big deal to the ego!

                    Prometheus


                    "Non" eckchains wrote:
                    It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                    don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                    offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                    over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                    even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                    Non ;)

                    prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                    > Letter I've read that
                    > Klemp still needs to
                    > update his Guidelines
                    > for the H.I.s in the
                    > field and chastise
                    > those who are slow
                    > to get with the program.
                    >
                    > Many long-time H.I.s
                    > want the freedom
                    > of Soul to be more
                    > individualistic,
                    > spontaneous, and
                    > creative by thinking
                    > they (Soul) can operate
                    > outside-of-the-box,
                    > thus, being channels
                    > for the ECK. Klemp
                    > has previously stated
                    > that he's imperfect,
                    > but that's not the case
                    > with the ECK, correct?
                    >
                    > Why, then, shouldn't
                    > their current (Present)
                    > Inner EK Guidance be
                    > followed versus that
                    > of outer set-in-stone
                    > ESC Guidelines printed
                    > in the Past and approved
                    > by a committee of imperfect
                    > people on a plane ruled
                    > by the KAL?
                    >
                    > H.I.s still haven't learned
                    > that freedom of expression
                    > doesn't work in Klemp's
                    > version of ECKankar.
                    > It's a hierarchy where
                    > everything is spelled
                    > out and controlled
                    > by him and his secret
                    > RESA police, plus, all
                    > field work must be
                    > approved via the
                    > current Guidelines.
                    >
                    > Many inexperienced
                    > EKists like the idea of
                    > being told how to do
                    > this or that and what
                    > approved books to use
                    > and what to say and
                    > other details to make
                    > the promotion of
                    > Eckankar easier.
                    >
                    > But the real point the
                    > ESC (Klemp) is making
                    > is to have EK PR more
                    > consistent and cookie
                    > cutter looking/sounding
                    > for the public.
                    >
                    > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                    > are like following a
                    > recipe set-in-stone
                    > that disregards individual
                    > or regional tastes and
                    > disallows any additions
                    > or omissions of other
                    > ingredients, methods,
                    > and/or spices.
                    >
                    > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                    > are about H.I.s resisting
                    > change. He says they "rock
                    > the boat" out of "fear" and
                    > that "it's all about fear."
                    > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                    > and "reinforce in each other
                    > a group's opposition to
                    > anything new." Strange
                    > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                    > subject to fear since he's
                    > supposed to protect them!
                    > This is how the KAL works.
                    > Klemp is his agent.
                    >
                    > However, the real 'change'
                    > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                    > Klemp's nonsense and
                    > heavy handed control tactics.
                    > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                    > the Freedom of Soul versus
                    > being bound to dogma.
                    > HK side-steps delivering
                    > on his promises of protection
                    > and never has anything
                    > profound to share. And,
                    > where are those Higher
                    > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                    > yardsticks in measuring
                    > Consciousness and Spiritual
                    > Growth? Klemp is playing
                    > the long-con and is, thus,
                    > stingy and self-serving.
                    >
                    > Harold goes on to say that
                    > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                    > on the path to God instead
                    > of being stepping stones."
                    > Apparently, being creative
                    > and spontaneous and
                    > following "Inner Nudges"
                    > and/or "Signs" are not
                    > permitted if it conflicts
                    > with the LEM's outer,
                    > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                    >
                    > The LEM states that, "We
                    > are here to learn." However,
                    > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                    > from others since he never
                    > listens? He's the Top goD
                    > and doesn't partake in
                    > two-way dialogues with
                    > those under his authority.
                    >
                    > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                    > and unloving as he continues
                    > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                    > believe that if they sit still
                    > and breathe only enough to
                    > sustain life that they may
                    > well dodge the lightning
                    > strikes of irksome change."
                    > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                    > like KAL! However, by doing
                    > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                    > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                    > Don't EKists still die of all
                    > sorts of illnesses and situations
                    > that could have be averted
                    > if they had gotten proper
                    > and immediate care? Sure!
                    > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                    > ECKists and his veiled threats
                    > are meaningless... unless
                    > you've given this Black
                    > Magician power over you!
                    >
                    > But, it seems that HK
                    > has something else stuck
                    > in his craw. It seems to
                    > me that Klemp doesn't
                    > like his 7ths just sitting
                    > still and Contemplating
                    > or HUing, and enjoying
                    > life. But why shouldn't
                    > they take it easy after
                    > 40 years of doing PR
                    > work for Eckankar!
                    >
                    > So, what does Klemp
                    > the All compassionate,
                    > loving, positive, and
                    > empathetic icon of EK
                    > conclude?
                    >
                    > "An H.I. who blatantly
                    > refuses to adhere to
                    > the ECK Guidelines
                    > needs to be addressed
                    > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                    > I wonder what that
                    > really means? Well,
                    > unless you're already
                    > a 7th you can kiss that
                    > next initiation good-bye
                    > for like 10-20 years!
                    >
                    > Klemp continues to say,
                    > "These are big stakes!
                    > Continued refusal means
                    > it's time for a replacement
                    > to step in. A change is
                    > due. Change. isn't it
                    > funny how we have come
                    > full circle?" No! It's not
                    > really funny. Klemp
                    > abuses the concept
                    > of "change" and makes
                    > it into a misnomer.
                    >
                    > What "changes" are there
                    > in Eckankar? The same
                    > old things are merely
                    > revisited, updated, dusted
                    > off and made to seem
                    > "new." It's all a facade,
                    > smoke and mirrors, and
                    > a game of pretend by
                    > creating brightly colored
                    > straws to grab at and
                    > cling to when drowning.
                    >
                    > Too bad that EKists are
                    > so deluded and needy
                    > and aren't able to read
                    > between the lines and
                    > see the real truth behind
                    > Klemp's words and methods.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >





                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Janice, Thanks for the interesting reply and the sharing of insights and experiences. I really really enjoyed it all. The reason why someone knew you
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
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                      Hello Janice,
                      Thanks for the interesting
                      reply and the sharing of
                      insights and experiences.
                      I really really enjoyed it
                      all.

                      The reason why someone
                      knew you received your
                      pink slip is because the
                      RESA gets an initiation
                      eligibility list where he/
                      she will mark yea/nay
                      for an initiation. When
                      the yea is checked the
                      ESC (membership services)
                      will more than likely issue
                      the pink slip for the initiation.
                      Or, the file has been red
                      flagged for some reason.
                      Klemp, I'm told, will put
                      a temporary hold on higher
                      initiations. Maybe it's due
                      to pending requirements
                      for training/retraining.
                      The ESC will notify the
                      RESA when the pink slip
                      is sent.

                      Most Eckists don't know
                      how the initiation process
                      works.

                      The RESA has a membership
                      list generated by the ESC
                      for all those EKists in their
                      region and it will show
                      initiation level, one's status
                      and date of membership
                      among other info. If a
                      new person sends in a
                      membership form to the
                      ESC from anywhere in
                      the RESA's region the RESA
                      will be notified of who
                      they are and their mailing
                      address.

                      I was glad Ford Johnson
                      wrote his book and that
                      I was told about it by an
                      Eckist who is still an H.I.
                      The Irony is that he was
                      doing Public Information
                      and was quite the gossip.

                      I always was the skeptic
                      and had trouble with a lot
                      of what I saw and experienced
                      around H.I.s.

                      When I was a lower initiate
                      I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                      spiritual nor anywhere close
                      to being enlightened. There
                      were too many contradictions,
                      restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                      Once you're an EK member
                      the next step is to get you
                      to become a volunteer on
                      HK's sales team.

                      I always wondered how
                      was there an "inner" connection
                      to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                      were still smoking and
                      drinking alcohol, but
                      getting promoted with
                      more initiations? I knew
                      of two 5ths who smoked
                      and drank and got pink
                      slips for the 6th. It's clear
                      that Klemp knows nothing
                      unless informed via phone
                      or snailmail... email now!

                      Yes, Janice, we were the
                      ones awakened to the Truth
                      while all of those "Higher"
                      (pretend) Initiates are still
                      sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                      become very skilled at
                      regurgitating the PR and
                      at facilitating and public
                      speaking. But, H.I.s have
                      no idea of what it's like
                      to be Free thinkers and
                      free of religion and of the
                      EK Hierarchy. They think
                      that their "spiritual experiences"
                      are unique when these
                      are common and similar
                      experiences that all religious
                      seekers have had... even
                      Christians!

                      Yes, we needed Eckankar
                      in order to fill a void and
                      to learn some important
                      lessons about ourselves
                      and about religion in general.

                      IMO, Those who left
                      Eckankar but still have
                      a need for religion, haven't
                      really learned that they
                      will never find answers
                      via a group consciousness
                      or via a guru/master.
                      True, it is nice to know
                      people of like mind and
                      to share things, but this
                      can be a bad thing as well
                      if we become too attached
                      or lazy and want to play
                      follow the leader again.

                      It all comes down to one's
                      private and personal experiences
                      and inner revelations with
                      oneSelf and with whatever
                      catalyst of "divine" creation.

                      Prometheus



                      Janice wrote:
                      I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                      Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                      I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                      Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                      How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                      That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                      The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                      Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                      I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                      I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                      I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                      Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                      Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                      Blessings to all of you.


                      prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                      > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                      > in Satsang Society "settler"
                      > and "explorer" positions at
                      > the EK Centers would trip
                      > over their egos and go on
                      > power trips. Many seemed
                      > cliquish and would huddle
                      > together. Then, again, some
                      > weren't all that friendly or
                      > were very introverted and
                      > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                      > including the clerics, to
                      > greet and talk to all of the
                      > new or seldom seen faces
                      > that showed up. Many
                      > only saw other Eckists at
                      > the monthly EWS and this
                      > was a time to catch up on
                      > things. This is why I'd
                      > suggest going to lunch
                      > after the EWS and socializing.
                      >
                      > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                      > True? I think so!
                      >
                      > Klemp's volunteer duties
                      > and requirements for Eckists
                      > means that they must take
                      > on extroverted roles in
                      > order to become H.I.s.
                      > Eckists must force themselves,
                      > against their innate natures,
                      > to become extroverted and
                      > egocentric. These leadership
                      > requirements create conflict,
                      > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                      > Thus, this imbalance that
                      > Klemp has created and
                      > reenforces aids him in
                      > the brainwashing of his
                      > flock to have programmed
                      > religious faith, beliefs, and
                      > mystical experiences. But,
                      > this has its toll and is why
                      > many long-time H.I.s choose
                      > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                      > and his anal control tactics.
                      >
                      > Sometimes, at special
                      > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                      > and mini retreats the
                      > long-time H.I.s, former
                      > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                      > members would gather
                      > around and gossip about
                      > those absent or present.
                      > Only, it wasn't seen as
                      > gossip but rationalized
                      > as more of an evaluative/
                      > investigative discussion
                      > for possible initiation
                      > recommendation or for
                      > a Satsang position appointment.
                      > They wanted to know,
                      > from sources who knew
                      > them, if there were problems
                      > with these EKists and, if
                      > so, what the specific details
                      > were. It was all ego driven
                      > and subjective because we
                      > were all volunteers and
                      > had family and personal
                      > lives too. But, it did weed
                      > out those who weren't as
                      > well indoctrinated....
                      > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                      > crap (busy work) was pretty
                      > much always a waste of
                      > time so, in the long run,
                      > enthusiasm was probably
                      > more important than acting
                      > the part. The Satsang positions
                      > and duties kept people
                      > busy, gave them a purpose
                      > and made them feel good,
                      > although, very stressed out.
                      >
                      > The Initiation game has made
                      > Eckists struggle with denying
                      > how much more they want of
                      > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                      >
                      > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                      > that an ESA told you that the
                      > people at the EK Center were
                      > crazy. That just isn't done
                      > and is part of HK's agenda
                      > of Silence and retraining.
                      >
                      > There's that old Buddha quote
                      > that Eckists sing and talk about
                      > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                      > and this is supposed to keep
                      > ECKists quiet or else they will
                      > sometimes get reported:
                      > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                      > this I ask myself before I
                      > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                      > following this criteria is very
                      > subjective and could or would
                      > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                      > conservations.
                      >
                      > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                      > may be "true" for you and
                      > for most people but not
                      > not for all people. And, is
                      > it "necessary" to exclaim
                      > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                      > this within earshot of people
                      > who aren't feeling well or
                      > who can't enjoy the day?
                      > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                      > to keep the critics of his
                      > policies and of his H.I.s
                      > to a minimum.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                      > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                      > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                      > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                      > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                      > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                      > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                      > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                      > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                      > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                      >
                      > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                      > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                      >
                      > Good to be away from it.
                      >
                      > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      >
                      > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                      > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                      > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                      > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                      > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                      > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                      > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                      > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                      > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                      > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                      > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                      > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                      > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                      > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                      > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                      > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                      > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                      > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                      > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                      > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                      > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                      > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                      > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                      > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                      > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                      > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                      > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                      > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                      >
                      > Russ wrote:
                      > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                      > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                      > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                      > made him so popular in the eck community.
                      >
                      > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                      > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                      > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                      > things.
                      >
                      > Russ
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                      > What has me ROFLMAO is
                      > that Klemp has enough of
                      > a problem that he used it
                      > in the ASK The MASTER
                      > section of the H.I. Letter!
                      > And, it was the only question!
                      > They had, supposedly, an
                      > H.I. write-in and point out
                      > the problem. No name given.
                      >
                      > I remember when I had
                      > to deal with some older
                      > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                      > coordinator and director
                      > positions and it was
                      > impossible to get this
                      > one to follow the Guidelines
                      > on EK Worship Services
                      > (EWS). Many long-time
                      > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                      > Guidelines and my
                      > RESA turned a blind-
                      > eye to it all. We had
                      > so many former RESAs
                      > in volunteer positions
                      > that it was impossible
                      > to get them on the
                      > same page and to follow
                      > procedures. I think
                      > that some were just
                      > burned out and tired
                      > of Klemp's B.S. but
                      > didn't want to leave.
                      > Maybe they had too
                      > many friendships to
                      > lose. Plus, let's face
                      > it. A lot of these people
                      > are losers in the real
                      > world but are big shots
                      > in Eckankar. Those
                      > Higher Initiations are
                      > a big deal to the ego!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      >
                      > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                      > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                      > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                      > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                      > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                      > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                      >
                      > Non ;)
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello All,
                      > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                      > > Letter I've read that
                      > > Klemp still needs to
                      > > update his Guidelines
                      > > for the H.I.s in the
                      > > field and chastise
                      > > those who are slow
                      > > to get with the program.
                      > >
                      > > Many long-time H.I.s
                      > > want the freedom
                      > > of Soul to be more
                      > > individualistic,
                      > > spontaneous, and
                      > > creative by thinking
                      > > they (Soul) can operate
                      > > outside-of-the-box,
                      > > thus, being channels
                      > > for the ECK. Klemp
                      > > has previously stated
                      > > that he's imperfect,
                      > > but that's not the case
                      > > with the ECK, correct?
                      > >
                      > > Why, then, shouldn't
                      > > their current (Present)
                      > > Inner EK Guidance be
                      > > followed versus that
                      > > of outer set-in-stone
                      > > ESC Guidelines printed
                      > > in the Past and approved
                      > > by a committee of imperfect
                      > > people on a plane ruled
                      > > by the KAL?
                      > >
                      > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                      > > that freedom of expression
                      > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                      > > version of ECKankar.
                      > > It's a hierarchy where
                      > > everything is spelled
                      > > out and controlled
                      > > by him and his secret
                      > > RESA police, plus, all
                      > > field work must be
                      > > approved via the
                      > > current Guidelines.
                      > >
                      > > Many inexperienced
                      > > EKists like the idea of
                      > > being told how to do
                      > > this or that and what
                      > > approved books to use
                      > > and what to say and
                      > > other details to make
                      > > the promotion of
                      > > Eckankar easier.
                      > >
                      > > But the real point the
                      > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                      > > is to have EK PR more
                      > > consistent and cookie
                      > > cutter looking/sounding
                      > > for the public.
                      > >
                      > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                      > > are like following a
                      > > recipe set-in-stone
                      > > that disregards individual
                      > > or regional tastes and
                      > > disallows any additions
                      > > or omissions of other
                      > > ingredients, methods,
                      > > and/or spices.
                      > >
                      > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                      > > are about H.I.s resisting
                      > > change. He says they "rock
                      > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                      > > that "it's all about fear."
                      > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                      > > and "reinforce in each other
                      > > a group's opposition to
                      > > anything new." Strange
                      > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                      > > subject to fear since he's
                      > > supposed to protect them!
                      > > This is how the KAL works.
                      > > Klemp is his agent.
                      > >
                      > > However, the real 'change'
                      > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                      > > Klemp's nonsense and
                      > > heavy handed control tactics.
                      > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                      > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                      > > being bound to dogma.
                      > > HK side-steps delivering
                      > > on his promises of protection
                      > > and never has anything
                      > > profound to share. And,
                      > > where are those Higher
                      > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                      > > yardsticks in measuring
                      > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                      > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                      > > the long-con and is, thus,
                      > > stingy and self-serving.
                      > >
                      > > Harold goes on to say that
                      > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                      > > on the path to God instead
                      > > of being stepping stones."
                      > > Apparently, being creative
                      > > and spontaneous and
                      > > following "Inner Nudges"
                      > > and/or "Signs" are not
                      > > permitted if it conflicts
                      > > with the LEM's outer,
                      > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                      > >
                      > > The LEM states that, "We
                      > > are here to learn." However,
                      > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                      > > from others since he never
                      > > listens? He's the Top goD
                      > > and doesn't partake in
                      > > two-way dialogues with
                      > > those under his authority.
                      > >
                      > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                      > > and unloving as he continues
                      > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                      > > believe that if they sit still
                      > > and breathe only enough to
                      > > sustain life that they may
                      > > well dodge the lightning
                      > > strikes of irksome change."
                      > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                      > > like KAL! However, by doing
                      > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                      > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                      > > Don't EKists still die of all
                      > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                      > > that could have be averted
                      > > if they had gotten proper
                      > > and immediate care? Sure!
                      > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                      > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                      > > are meaningless... unless
                      > > you've given this Black
                      > > Magician power over you!
                      > >
                      > > But, it seems that HK
                      > > has something else stuck
                      > > in his craw. It seems to
                      > > me that Klemp doesn't
                      > > like his 7ths just sitting
                      > > still and Contemplating
                      > > or HUing, and enjoying
                      > > life. But why shouldn't
                      > > they take it easy after
                      > > 40 years of doing PR
                      > > work for Eckankar!
                      > >
                      > > So, what does Klemp
                      > > the All compassionate,
                      > > loving, positive, and
                      > > empathetic icon of EK
                      > > conclude?
                      > >
                      > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                      > > refuses to adhere to
                      > > the ECK Guidelines
                      > > needs to be addressed
                      > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                      > > I wonder what that
                      > > really means? Well,
                      > > unless you're already
                      > > a 7th you can kiss that
                      > > next initiation good-bye
                      > > for like 10-20 years!
                      > >
                      > > Klemp continues to say,
                      > > "These are big stakes!
                      > > Continued refusal means
                      > > it's time for a replacement
                      > > to step in. A change is
                      > > due. Change. isn't it
                      > > funny how we have come
                      > > full circle?" No! It's not
                      > > really funny. Klemp
                      > > abuses the concept
                      > > of "change" and makes
                      > > it into a misnomer.
                      > >
                      > > What "changes" are there
                      > > in Eckankar? The same
                      > > old things are merely
                      > > revisited, updated, dusted
                      > > off and made to seem
                      > > "new." It's all a facade,
                      > > smoke and mirrors, and
                      > > a game of pretend by
                      > > creating brightly colored
                      > > straws to grab at and
                      > > cling to when drowning.
                      > >
                      > > Too bad that EKists are
                      > > so deluded and needy
                      > > and aren't able to read
                      > > between the lines and
                      > > see the real truth behind
                      > > Klemp's words and methods.
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      >
                    • Janice Pfeiffer
                      Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.    Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it
                      Message 10 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                         
                        Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                         
                        That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                         
                        In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                         
                         I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                         
                        The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                         
                        It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                         
                        When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                         
                        Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                         
                        I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                        --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                         
                        Hello Janice,
                        Thanks for the interesting
                        reply and the sharing of
                        insights and experiences.
                        I really really enjoyed it
                        all.

                        The reason why someone
                        knew you received your
                        pink slip is because the
                        RESA gets an initiation
                        eligibility list where he/
                        she will mark yea/nay
                        for an initiation. When
                        the yea is checked the
                        ESC (membership services)
                        will more than likely issue
                        the pink slip for the initiation.
                        Or, the file has been red
                        flagged for some reason.
                        Klemp, I'm told, will put
                        a temporary hold on higher
                        initiations. Maybe it's due
                        to pending requirements
                        for training/retraining.
                        The ESC will notify the
                        RESA when the pink slip
                        is sent.

                        Most Eckists don't know
                        how the initiation process
                        works.

                        The RESA has a membership
                        list generated by the ESC
                        for all those EKists in their
                        region and it will show
                        initiation level, one's status
                        and date of membership
                        among other info. If a
                        new person sends in a
                        membership form to the
                        ESC from anywhere in
                        the RESA's region the RESA
                        will be notified of who
                        they are and their mailing
                        address.

                        I was glad Ford Johnson
                        wrote his book and that
                        I was told about it by an
                        Eckist who is still an H.I.
                        The Irony is that he was
                        doing Public Information
                        and was quite the gossip.

                        I always was the skeptic
                        and had trouble with a lot
                        of what I saw and experienced
                        around H.I.s.

                        When I was a lower initiate
                        I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                        spiritual nor anywhere close
                        to being enlightened. There
                        were too many contradictions,
                        restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                        Once you're an EK member
                        the next step is to get you
                        to become a volunteer on
                        HK's sales team.

                        I always wondered how
                        was there an "inner" connection
                        to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                        were still smoking and
                        drinking alcohol, but
                        getting promoted with
                        more initiations? I knew
                        of two 5ths who smoked
                        and drank and got pink
                        slips for the 6th. It's clear
                        that Klemp knows nothing
                        unless informed via phone
                        or snailmail... email now!

                        Yes, Janice, we were the
                        ones awakened to the Truth
                        while all of those "Higher"
                        (pretend) Initiates are still
                        sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                        become very skilled at
                        regurgitating the PR and
                        at facilitating and public
                        speaking. But, H.I.s have
                        no idea of what it's like
                        to be Free thinkers and
                        free of religion and of the
                        EK Hierarchy. They think
                        that their "spiritual experiences"
                        are unique when these
                        are common and similar
                        experiences that all religious
                        seekers have had... even
                        Christians!

                        Yes, we needed Eckankar
                        in order to fill a void and
                        to learn some important
                        lessons about ourselves
                        and about religion in general.

                        IMO, Those who left
                        Eckankar but still have
                        a need for religion, haven't
                        really learned that they
                        will never find answers
                        via a group consciousness
                        or via a guru/master.
                        True, it is nice to know
                        people of like mind and
                        to share things, but this
                        can be a bad thing as well
                        if we become too attached
                        or lazy and want to play
                        follow the leader again.

                        It all comes down to one's
                        private and personal experiences
                        and inner revelations with
                        oneSelf and with whatever
                        catalyst of "divine" creation.

                        Prometheus

                        Janice wrote:
                        I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                        Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                        I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                        Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                        How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                        That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                        The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                        Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                        I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                        I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                        I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                        Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                        Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                        Blessings to all of you.


                        prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                        > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                        > in Satsang Society "settler"
                        > and "explorer" positions at
                        > the EK Centers would trip
                        > over their egos and go on
                        > power trips. Many seemed
                        > cliquish and would huddle
                        > together. Then, again, some
                        > weren't all that friendly or
                        > were very introverted and
                        > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                        > including the clerics, to
                        > greet and talk to all of the
                        > new or seldom seen faces
                        > that showed up. Many
                        > only saw other Eckists at
                        > the monthly EWS and this
                        > was a time to catch up on
                        > things. This is why I'd
                        > suggest going to lunch
                        > after the EWS and socializing.
                        >
                        > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                        > True? I think so!
                        >
                        > Klemp's volunteer duties
                        > and requirements for Eckists
                        > means that they must take
                        > on extroverted roles in
                        > order to become H.I.s.
                        > Eckists must force themselves,
                        > against their innate natures,
                        > to become extroverted and
                        > egocentric. These leadership
                        > requirements create conflict,
                        > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                        > Thus, this imbalance that
                        > Klemp has created and
                        > reenforces aids him in
                        > the brainwashing of his
                        > flock to have programmed
                        > religious faith, beliefs, and
                        > mystical experiences. But,
                        > this has its toll and is why
                        > many long-time H.I.s choose
                        > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                        > and his anal control tactics.
                        >
                        > Sometimes, at special
                        > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                        > and mini retreats the
                        > long-time H.I.s, former
                        > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                        > members would gather
                        > around and gossip about
                        > those absent or present.
                        > Only, it wasn't seen as
                        > gossip but rationalized
                        > as more of an evaluative/
                        > investigative discussion
                        > for possible initiation
                        > recommendation or for
                        > a Satsang position appointment.
                        > They wanted to know,
                        > from sources who knew
                        > them, if there were problems
                        > with these EKists and, if
                        > so, what the specific details
                        > were. It was all ego driven
                        > and subjective because we
                        > were all volunteers and
                        > had family and personal
                        > lives too. But, it did weed
                        > out those who weren't as
                        > well indoctrinated....
                        > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                        > crap (busy work) was pretty
                        > much always a waste of
                        > time so, in the long run,
                        > enthusiasm was probably
                        > more important than acting
                        > the part. The Satsang positions
                        > and duties kept people
                        > busy, gave them a purpose
                        > and made them feel good,
                        > although, very stressed out.
                        >
                        > The Initiation game has made
                        > Eckists struggle with denying
                        > how much more they want of
                        > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                        >
                        > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                        > that an ESA told you that the
                        > people at the EK Center were
                        > crazy. That just isn't done
                        > and is part of HK's agenda
                        > of Silence and retraining.
                        >
                        > There's that old Buddha quote
                        > that Eckists sing and talk about
                        > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                        > and this is supposed to keep
                        > ECKists quiet or else they will
                        > sometimes get reported:
                        > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                        > this I ask myself before I
                        > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                        > following this criteria is very
                        > subjective and could or would
                        > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                        > conservations.
                        >
                        > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                        > may be "true" for you and
                        > for most people but not
                        > not for all people. And, is
                        > it "necessary" to exclaim
                        > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                        > this within earshot of people
                        > who aren't feeling well or
                        > who can't enjoy the day?
                        > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                        > to keep the critics of his
                        > policies and of his H.I.s
                        > to a minimum.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                        > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                        > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                        > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                        > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                        > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                        > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                        > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                        > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                        > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                        >
                        > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                        > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                        >
                        > Good to be away from it.
                        >
                        > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        >
                        > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                        > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                        > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                        > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                        > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                        > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                        > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                        > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                        > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                        > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                        > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                        > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                        > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                        > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                        > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                        > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                        > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                        > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                        > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                        > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                        > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                        > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                        > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                        > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                        > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                        > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                        > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                        > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                        >
                        > Russ wrote:
                        > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                        > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                        > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                        > made him so popular in the eck community.
                        >
                        > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                        > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                        > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                        > things.
                        >
                        > Russ
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > prometheus wrote:
                        > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                        > What has me ROFLMAO is
                        > that Klemp has enough of
                        > a problem that he used it
                        > in the ASK The MASTER
                        > section of the H.I. Letter!
                        > And, it was the only question!
                        > They had, supposedly, an
                        > H.I. write-in and point out
                        > the problem. No name given.
                        >
                        > I remember when I had
                        > to deal with some older
                        > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                        > coordinator and director
                        > positions and it was
                        > impossible to get this
                        > one to follow the Guidelines
                        > on EK Worship Services
                        > (EWS). Many long-time
                        > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                        > Guidelines and my
                        > RESA turned a blind-
                        > eye to it all. We had
                        > so many former RESAs
                        > in volunteer positions
                        > that it was impossible
                        > to get them on the
                        > same page and to follow
                        > procedures. I think
                        > that some were just
                        > burned out and tired
                        > of Klemp's B.S. but
                        > didn't want to leave.
                        > Maybe they had too
                        > many friendships to
                        > lose. Plus, let's face
                        > it. A lot of these people
                        > are losers in the real
                        > world but are big shots
                        > in Eckankar. Those
                        > Higher Initiations are
                        > a big deal to the ego!
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        >
                        > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                        > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                        > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                        > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                        > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                        > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                        >
                        > Non ;)
                        >
                        > prometheus wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello All,
                        > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                        > > Letter I've read that
                        > > Klemp still needs to
                        > > update his Guidelines
                        > > for the H.I.s in the
                        > > field and chastise
                        > > those who are slow
                        > > to get with the program.
                        > >
                        > > Many long-time H.I.s
                        > > want the freedom
                        > > of Soul to be more
                        > > individualistic,
                        > > spontaneous, and
                        > > creative by thinking
                        > > they (Soul) can operate
                        > > outside-of-the-box,
                        > > thus, being channels
                        > > for the ECK. Klemp
                        > > has previously stated
                        > > that he's imperfect,
                        > > but that's not the case
                        > > with the ECK, correct?
                        > >
                        > > Why, then, shouldn't
                        > > their current (Present)
                        > > Inner EK Guidance be
                        > > followed versus that
                        > > of outer set-in-stone
                        > > ESC Guidelines printed
                        > > in the Past and approved
                        > > by a committee of imperfect
                        > > people on a plane ruled
                        > > by the KAL?
                        > >
                        > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                        > > that freedom of expression
                        > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                        > > version of ECKankar.
                        > > It's a hierarchy where
                        > > everything is spelled
                        > > out and controlled
                        > > by him and his secret
                        > > RESA police, plus, all
                        > > field work must be
                        > > approved via the
                        > > current Guidelines.
                        > >
                        > > Many inexperienced
                        > > EKists like the idea of
                        > > being told how to do
                        > > this or that and what
                        > > approved books to use
                        > > and what to say and
                        > > other details to make
                        > > the promotion of
                        > > Eckankar easier.
                        > >
                        > > But the real point the
                        > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                        > > is to have EK PR more
                        > > consistent and cookie
                        > > cutter looking/sounding
                        > > for the public.
                        > >
                        > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                        > > are like following a
                        > > recipe set-in-stone
                        > > that disregards individual
                        > > or regional tastes and
                        > > disallows any additions
                        > > or omissions of other
                        > > ingredients, methods,
                        > > and/or spices.
                        > >
                        > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                        > > are about H.I.s resisting
                        > > change. He says they "rock
                        > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                        > > that "it's all about fear."
                        > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                        > > and "reinforce in each other
                        > > a group's opposition to
                        > > anything new." Strange
                        > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                        > > subject to fear since he's
                        > > supposed to protect them!
                        > > This is how the KAL works.
                        > > Klemp is his agent.
                        > >
                        > > However, the real 'change'
                        > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                        > > Klemp's nonsense and
                        > > heavy handed control tactics.
                        > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                        > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                        > > being bound to dogma.
                        > > HK side-steps delivering
                        > > on his promises of protection
                        > > and never has anything
                        > > profound to share. And,
                        > > where are those Higher
                        > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                        > > yardsticks in measuring
                        > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                        > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                        > > the long-con and is, thus,
                        > > stingy and self-serving.
                        > >
                        > > Harold goes on to say that
                        > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                        > > on the path to God instead
                        > > of being stepping stones."
                        > > Apparently, being creative
                        > > and spontaneous and
                        > > following "Inner Nudges"
                        > > and/or "Signs" are not
                        > > permitted if it conflicts
                        > > with the LEM's outer,
                        > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                        > >
                        > > The LEM states that, "We
                        > > are here to learn." However,
                        > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                        > > from others since he never
                        > > listens? He's the Top goD
                        > > and doesn't partake in
                        > > two-way dialogues with
                        > > those under his authority.
                        > >
                        > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                        > > and unloving as he continues
                        > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                        > > believe that if they sit still
                        > > and breathe only enough to
                        > > sustain life that they may
                        > > well dodge the lightning
                        > > strikes of irksome change."
                        > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                        > > like KAL! However, by doing
                        > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                        > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                        > > Don't EKists still die of all
                        > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                        > > that could have be averted
                        > > if they had gotten proper
                        > > and immediate care? Sure!
                        > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                        > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                        > > are meaningless... unless
                        > > you've given this Black
                        > > Magician power over you!
                        > >
                        > > But, it seems that HK
                        > > has something else stuck
                        > > in his craw. It seems to
                        > > me that Klemp doesn't
                        > > like his 7ths just sitting
                        > > still and Contemplating
                        > > or HUing, and enjoying
                        > > life. But why shouldn't
                        > > they take it easy after
                        > > 40 years of doing PR
                        > > work for Eckankar!
                        > >
                        > > So, what does Klemp
                        > > the All compassionate,
                        > > loving, positive, and
                        > > empathetic icon of EK
                        > > conclude?
                        > >
                        > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                        > > refuses to adhere to
                        > > the ECK Guidelines
                        > > needs to be addressed
                        > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                        > > I wonder what that
                        > > really means? Well,
                        > > unless you're already
                        > > a 7th you can kiss that
                        > > next initiation good-bye
                        > > for like 10-20 years!
                        > >
                        > > Klemp continues to say,
                        > > "These are big stakes!
                        > > Continued refusal means
                        > > it's time for a replacement
                        > > to step in. A change is
                        > > due. Change. isn't it
                        > > funny how we have come
                        > > full circle?" No! It's not
                        > > really funny. Klemp
                        > > abuses the concept
                        > > of "change" and makes
                        > > it into a misnomer.
                        > >
                        > > What "changes" are there
                        > > in Eckankar? The same
                        > > old things are merely
                        > > revisited, updated, dusted
                        > > off and made to seem
                        > > "new." It's all a facade,
                        > > smoke and mirrors, and
                        > > a game of pretend by
                        > > creating brightly colored
                        > > straws to grab at and
                        > > cling to when drowning.
                        > >
                        > > Too bad that EKists are
                        > > so deluded and needy
                        > > and aren't able to read
                        > > between the lines and
                        > > see the real truth behind
                        > > Klemp's words and methods.
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        >

                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Janice, Most H.I.s have no idea how the EK Initiation process works. It s sad because there are some really nice and gentile chelas who have been passed
                        Message 11 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
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                          Hello Janice,
                          Most H.I.s have no idea
                          how the EK Initiation
                          process works. It's sad
                          because there are some
                          really nice and gentile
                          chelas who have been
                          passed over on the 5th.
                          Some died as 4ths when
                          they should have had
                          some happiness, peace
                          of mind, and contentment
                          by receiving that 5th.
                          I've know several eckists
                          where this has happened.
                          It was no big deal to give
                          them their 5th initiation,
                          but some RESAs are mean-
                          spirited, lack empathy,
                          and are petty. They've
                          gotten caught up in HK's
                          game. All Eckists should
                          get the 5th after no more
                          than 20 years, especially,
                          when they participate
                          and are kept current on
                          their membership. However,
                          that's not the way the
                          power trip is played by
                          some RESAs.

                          I hate to admit this but
                          I helped the RESA when
                          asked about people. I
                          was quizzed about those
                          up for, usually, the 5th
                          and 6th initiation. I was
                          asked about what the EKist
                          said, how they acted and
                          conducted themselves
                          and any unusual things
                          that I noticed about
                          their behavior or performance.
                          And then I was asked for
                          my opinion. Unfortunately
                          my replies, I know, had
                          some initiations delayed
                          for these people and I
                          regret that I got caught
                          up in this petty mind game.
                          Some of these people are
                          still H.I.s and have no idea
                          why they had to wait so
                          long for their 5th or 6th.
                          Many probably think that
                          the Mahanta was testing
                          them! LOL! On the other
                          hand maybe some of them,
                          by now, have been asked
                          to evaluate people too.
                          I wonder if they put two
                          and two together and
                          figured it out, unless,
                          they were told why like
                          I had been told.

                          Why, though, should
                          Klemp have a system
                          for initiations that judges
                          and punishes Eckists
                          based upon our evaluations?
                          Where's that Inner Knowingness
                          of the Mahanta?

                          Besides, a 5th is no big
                          deal, and it's not like one
                          becomes a cleric automatically
                          with a 5th. Really, being
                          an 5th is no more being
                          an official representative
                          of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                          Yes, most Eckists have
                          no idea that a computer
                          generated eligibility list
                          is sent to the RESA by the
                          ESC and that phone calls
                          are made asking questions
                          where subjective answers
                          are given and that the RESA
                          uses these to either approve
                          and give a recommendation
                          for initiation or doesn't.
                          However, I will say that
                          any "No" has to have an
                          valid reason. The ESC
                          usually follows the RESAs'
                          recommendations.

                          BTW- Janice, I think that
                          your RESA approved of
                          your initiation because
                          he felt guilty for having
                          yelled at you, plus, you
                          could have reported him
                          to the ESC. Maybe the
                          initiation approval was
                          meant to appease you?

                          Prometheus



                          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                          Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                          Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person?

                          That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless.

                          In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                          I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all.

                          The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his time and hung up.

                          It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if that was part of it.

                          When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It was enough.

                          Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                          I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                          prometheus wrote:

                          Hello Janice,
                          Thanks for the interesting
                          reply and the sharing of
                          insights and experiences.
                          I really really enjoyed it
                          all.

                          The reason why someone
                          knew you received your
                          pink slip is because the
                          RESA gets an initiation
                          eligibility list where he/
                          she will mark yea/nay
                          for an initiation. When
                          the yea is checked the
                          ESC (membership services)
                          will more than likely issue
                          the pink slip for the initiation.
                          Or, the file has been red
                          flagged for some reason.
                          Klemp, I'm told, will put
                          a temporary hold on higher
                          initiations. Maybe it's due
                          to pending requirements
                          for training/retraining.
                          The ESC will notify the
                          RESA when the pink slip
                          is sent.

                          Most Eckists don't know
                          how the initiation process
                          works.

                          The RESA has a membership
                          list generated by the ESC
                          for all those EKists in their
                          region and it will show
                          initiation level, one's status
                          and date of membership
                          among other info. If a
                          new person sends in a
                          membership form to the
                          ESC from anywhere in
                          the RESA's region the RESA
                          will be notified of who
                          they are and their mailing
                          address.

                          I was glad Ford Johnson
                          wrote his book and that
                          I was told about it by an
                          Eckist who is still an H.I.
                          The Irony is that he was
                          doing Public Information
                          and was quite the gossip.

                          I always was the skeptic
                          and had trouble with a lot
                          of what I saw and experienced
                          around H.I.s.

                          When I was a lower initiate
                          I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                          spiritual nor anywhere close
                          to being enlightened. There
                          were too many contradictions,
                          restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                          Once you're an EK member
                          the next step is to get you
                          to become a volunteer on
                          HK's sales team.

                          I always wondered how
                          was there an "inner" connection
                          to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                          were still smoking and
                          drinking alcohol, but
                          getting promoted with
                          more initiations? I knew
                          of two 5ths who smoked
                          and drank and got pink
                          slips for the 6th. It's clear
                          that Klemp knows nothing
                          unless informed via phone
                          or snailmail... email now!

                          Yes, Janice, we were the
                          ones awakened to the Truth
                          while all of those "Higher"
                          (pretend) Initiates are still
                          sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                          become very skilled at
                          regurgitating the PR and
                          at facilitating and public
                          speaking. But, H.I.s have
                          no idea of what it's like
                          to be Free thinkers and
                          free of religion and of the
                          EK Hierarchy. They think
                          that their "spiritual experiences"
                          are unique when these
                          are common and similar
                          experiences that all religious
                          seekers have had... even
                          Christians!

                          Yes, we needed Eckankar
                          in order to fill a void and
                          to learn some important
                          lessons about ourselves
                          and about religion in general.

                          IMO, Those who left
                          Eckankar but still have
                          a need for religion, haven't
                          really learned that they
                          will never find answers
                          via a group consciousness
                          or via a guru/master.
                          True, it is nice to know
                          people of like mind and
                          to share things, but this
                          can be a bad thing as well
                          if we become too attached
                          or lazy and want to play
                          follow the leader again.

                          It all comes down to one's
                          private and personal experiences
                          and inner revelations with
                          oneSelf and with whatever
                          catalyst of "divine" creation.

                          Prometheus

                          Janice wrote:
                          I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                          Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                          I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                          Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                          How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                          That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                          The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                          Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                          I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                          I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                          I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                          Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                          Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                          Blessings to all of you.


                          prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                          > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                          > in Satsang Society "settler"
                          > and "explorer" positions at
                          > the EK Centers would trip
                          > over their egos and go on
                          > power trips. Many seemed
                          > cliquish and would huddle
                          > together. Then, again, some
                          > weren't all that friendly or
                          > were very introverted and
                          > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                          > including the clerics, to
                          > greet and talk to all of the
                          > new or seldom seen faces
                          > that showed up. Many
                          > only saw other Eckists at
                          > the monthly EWS and this
                          > was a time to catch up on
                          > things. This is why I'd
                          > suggest going to lunch
                          > after the EWS and socializing.
                          >
                          > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                          > True? I think so!
                          >
                          > Klemp's volunteer duties
                          > and requirements for Eckists
                          > means that they must take
                          > on extroverted roles in
                          > order to become H.I.s.
                          > Eckists must force themselves,
                          > against their innate natures,
                          > to become extroverted and
                          > egocentric. These leadership
                          > requirements create conflict,
                          > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                          > Thus, this imbalance that
                          > Klemp has created and
                          > reenforces aids him in
                          > the brainwashing of his
                          > flock to have programmed
                          > religious faith, beliefs, and
                          > mystical experiences. But,
                          > this has its toll and is why
                          > many long-time H.I.s choose
                          > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                          > and his anal control tactics.
                          >
                          > Sometimes, at special
                          > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                          > and mini retreats the
                          > long-time H.I.s, former
                          > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                          > members would gather
                          > around and gossip about
                          > those absent or present.
                          > Only, it wasn't seen as
                          > gossip but rationalized
                          > as more of an evaluative/
                          > investigative discussion
                          > for possible initiation
                          > recommendation or for
                          > a Satsang position appointment.
                          > They wanted to know,
                          > from sources who knew
                          > them, if there were problems
                          > with these EKists and, if
                          > so, what the specific details
                          > were. It was all ego driven
                          > and subjective because we
                          > were all volunteers and
                          > had family and personal
                          > lives too. But, it did weed
                          > out those who weren't as
                          > well indoctrinated....
                          > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                          > crap (busy work) was pretty
                          > much always a waste of
                          > time so, in the long run,
                          > enthusiasm was probably
                          > more important than acting
                          > the part. The Satsang positions
                          > and duties kept people
                          > busy, gave them a purpose
                          > and made them feel good,
                          > although, very stressed out.
                          >
                          > The Initiation game has made
                          > Eckists struggle with denying
                          > how much more they want of
                          > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                          >
                          > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                          > that an ESA told you that the
                          > people at the EK Center were
                          > crazy. That just isn't done
                          > and is part of HK's agenda
                          > of Silence and retraining.
                          >
                          > There's that old Buddha quote
                          > that Eckists sing and talk about
                          > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                          > and this is supposed to keep
                          > ECKists quiet or else they will
                          > sometimes get reported:
                          > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                          > this I ask myself before I
                          > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                          > following this criteria is very
                          > subjective and could or would
                          > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                          > conservations.
                          >
                          > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                          > may be "true" for you and
                          > for most people but not
                          > not for all people. And, is
                          > it "necessary" to exclaim
                          > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                          > this within earshot of people
                          > who aren't feeling well or
                          > who can't enjoy the day?
                          > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                          > to keep the critics of his
                          > policies and of his H.I.s
                          > to a minimum.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                          > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                          > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                          > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                          > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                          > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                          > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                          > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                          > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                          > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                          >
                          > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                          > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                          >
                          > Good to be away from it.
                          >
                          > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                          >
                          > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                          > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                          > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                          > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                          > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                          > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                          > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                          > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                          > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                          > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                          > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                          > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                          > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                          > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                          > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                          > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                          > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                          > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                          > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                          > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                          > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                          > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                          > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                          > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                          > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                          > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                          > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                          > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                          >
                          > Russ wrote:
                          > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                          > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                          > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                          > made him so popular in the eck community.
                          >
                          > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                          > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                          > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                          > things.
                          >
                          > Russ
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                          > What has me ROFLMAO is
                          > that Klemp has enough of
                          > a problem that he used it
                          > in the ASK The MASTER
                          > section of the H.I. Letter!
                          > And, it was the only question!
                          > They had, supposedly, an
                          > H.I. write-in and point out
                          > the problem. No name given.
                          >
                          > I remember when I had
                          > to deal with some older
                          > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                          > coordinator and director
                          > positions and it was
                          > impossible to get this
                          > one to follow the Guidelines
                          > on EK Worship Services
                          > (EWS). Many long-time
                          > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                          > Guidelines and my
                          > RESA turned a blind-
                          > eye to it all. We had
                          > so many former RESAs
                          > in volunteer positions
                          > that it was impossible
                          > to get them on the
                          > same page and to follow
                          > procedures. I think
                          > that some were just
                          > burned out and tired
                          > of Klemp's B.S. but
                          > didn't want to leave.
                          > Maybe they had too
                          > many friendships to
                          > lose. Plus, let's face
                          > it. A lot of these people
                          > are losers in the real
                          > world but are big shots
                          > in Eckankar. Those
                          > Higher Initiations are
                          > a big deal to the ego!
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >
                          >
                          > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                          > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                          > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                          > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                          > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                          > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                          >
                          > Non ;)
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hello All,
                          > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                          > > Letter I've read that
                          > > Klemp still needs to
                          > > update his Guidelines
                          > > for the H.I.s in the
                          > > field and chastise
                          > > those who are slow
                          > > to get with the program.
                          > >
                          > > Many long-time H.I.s
                          > > want the freedom
                          > > of Soul to be more
                          > > individualistic,
                          > > spontaneous, and
                          > > creative by thinking
                          > > they (Soul) can operate
                          > > outside-of-the-box,
                          > > thus, being channels
                          > > for the ECK. Klemp
                          > > has previously stated
                          > > that he's imperfect,
                          > > but that's not the case
                          > > with the ECK, correct?
                          > >
                          > > Why, then, shouldn't
                          > > their current (Present)
                          > > Inner EK Guidance be
                          > > followed versus that
                          > > of outer set-in-stone
                          > > ESC Guidelines printed
                          > > in the Past and approved
                          > > by a committee of imperfect
                          > > people on a plane ruled
                          > > by the KAL?
                          > >
                          > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                          > > that freedom of expression
                          > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                          > > version of ECKankar.
                          > > It's a hierarchy where
                          > > everything is spelled
                          > > out and controlled
                          > > by him and his secret
                          > > RESA police, plus, all
                          > > field work must be
                          > > approved via the
                          > > current Guidelines.
                          > >
                          > > Many inexperienced
                          > > EKists like the idea of
                          > > being told how to do
                          > > this or that and what
                          > > approved books to use
                          > > and what to say and
                          > > other details to make
                          > > the promotion of
                          > > Eckankar easier.
                          > >
                          > > But the real point the
                          > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                          > > is to have EK PR more
                          > > consistent and cookie
                          > > cutter looking/sounding
                          > > for the public.
                          > >
                          > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                          > > are like following a
                          > > recipe set-in-stone
                          > > that disregards individual
                          > > or regional tastes and
                          > > disallows any additions
                          > > or omissions of other
                          > > ingredients, methods,
                          > > and/or spices.
                          > >
                          > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                          > > are about H.I.s resisting
                          > > change. He says they "rock
                          > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                          > > that "it's all about fear."
                          > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                          > > and "reinforce in each other
                          > > a group's opposition to
                          > > anything new." Strange
                          > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                          > > subject to fear since he's
                          > > supposed to protect them!
                          > > This is how the KAL works.
                          > > Klemp is his agent.
                          > >
                          > > However, the real 'change'
                          > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                          > > Klemp's nonsense and
                          > > heavy handed control tactics.
                          > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                          > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                          > > being bound to dogma.
                          > > HK side-steps delivering
                          > > on his promises of protection
                          > > and never has anything
                          > > profound to share. And,
                          > > where are those Higher
                          > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                          > > yardsticks in measuring
                          > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                          > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                          > > the long-con and is, thus,
                          > > stingy and self-serving.
                          > >
                          > > Harold goes on to say that
                          > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                          > > on the path to God instead
                          > > of being stepping stones."
                          > > Apparently, being creative
                          > > and spontaneous and
                          > > following "Inner Nudges"
                          > > and/or "Signs" are not
                          > > permitted if it conflicts
                          > > with the LEM's outer,
                          > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                          > >
                          > > The LEM states that, "We
                          > > are here to learn." However,
                          > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                          > > from others since he never
                          > > listens? He's the Top goD
                          > > and doesn't partake in
                          > > two-way dialogues with
                          > > those under his authority.
                          > >
                          > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                          > > and unloving as he continues
                          > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                          > > believe that if they sit still
                          > > and breathe only enough to
                          > > sustain life that they may
                          > > well dodge the lightning
                          > > strikes of irksome change."
                          > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                          > > like KAL! However, by doing
                          > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                          > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                          > > Don't EKists still die of all
                          > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                          > > that could have be averted
                          > > if they had gotten proper
                          > > and immediate care? Sure!
                          > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                          > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                          > > are meaningless... unless
                          > > you've given this Black
                          > > Magician power over you!
                          > >
                          > > But, it seems that HK
                          > > has something else stuck
                          > > in his craw. It seems to
                          > > me that Klemp doesn't
                          > > like his 7ths just sitting
                          > > still and Contemplating
                          > > or HUing, and enjoying
                          > > life. But why shouldn't
                          > > they take it easy after
                          > > 40 years of doing PR
                          > > work for Eckankar!
                          > >
                          > > So, what does Klemp
                          > > the All compassionate,
                          > > loving, positive, and
                          > > empathetic icon of EK
                          > > conclude?
                          > >
                          > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                          > > refuses to adhere to
                          > > the ECK Guidelines
                          > > needs to be addressed
                          > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                          > > I wonder what that
                          > > really means? Well,
                          > > unless you're already
                          > > a 7th you can kiss that
                          > > next initiation good-bye
                          > > for like 10-20 years!
                          > >
                          > > Klemp continues to say,
                          > > "These are big stakes!
                          > > Continued refusal means
                          > > it's time for a replacement
                          > > to step in. A change is
                          > > due. Change. isn't it
                          > > funny how we have come
                          > > full circle?" No! It's not
                          > > really funny. Klemp
                          > > abuses the concept
                          > > of "change" and makes
                          > > it into a misnomer.
                          > >
                          > > What "changes" are there
                          > > in Eckankar? The same
                          > > old things are merely
                          > > revisited, updated, dusted
                          > > off and made to seem
                          > > "new." It's all a facade,
                          > > smoke and mirrors, and
                          > > a game of pretend by
                          > > creating brightly colored
                          > > straws to grab at and
                          > > cling to when drowning.
                          > >
                          > > Too bad that EKists are
                          > > so deluded and needy
                          > > and aren't able to read
                          > > between the lines and
                          > > see the real truth behind
                          > > Klemp's words and methods.
                          > >
                          > > Prometheus
                        • Janice Pfeiffer
                          Thanks again Prometheus,   The very fact that this resa thought I was asking about my own initiations and he had to insist that he had said nothing about me
                          Message 12 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thanks again Prometheus,
                             
                            The very fact that this resa thought I was asking about my own initiations and he had to insist that he had said nothing about me was proof that what I had been told,  was in fact true.  I didn't ask about my own and I said nothing about anything he might have said.  I was asking about how all initiations came about.  Yes, the initial info I got was the computer generated the list and  then the locals were questioned.
                             
                            For the longest time I did consider writing Minneapolis about my experiences.  The reason I finally decided against it was, I thought it would only help eckankar sharpen it's con game by telling them about it's weaknesses.  Why help people become better liars and cheaters? 
                             
                            It never occurred to me to try and take action about the resa screaming at me.  He was clearly out of control.  When I am dealing with a person whose behavior is so erratic, I just can't take their opinions seriously.  Besides, it was just more proof that the whole org ran like a circus filled with clowns and the bigger the nut job, the more likely they would advance.  I don't think klemp himself would give me a straight answer for what I ask and most likely if I got one at all, it wouldn't be an intelligent one.
                             
                            According to what you are saying even HI's didn't know the truth about initiations. I take it only those in some kind of local leadership roles were asked about individuals.
                             
                            After hearing what  you say, I feel very lucky that I found out as early as I did.  It must be a closely guarded secret.  Until now, I assumed that all HI's did know and I couldn't understand why the lies about it kept being perpetuated down. 
                             
                            You have given me just what I needed to know.  Most eckist remain in the dark no matter how long they are in.  Wow, that's a mind blower.  You have to admit, it is quite an ingenious con.  I do appreciate your frank answer. 
                             
                            As always, thanks for all you give.
                             

                            --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 8:14 AM

                             
                            Hello Janice,
                            Most H.I.s have no idea
                            how the EK Initiation
                            process works. It's sad
                            because there are some
                            really nice and gentile
                            chelas who have been
                            passed over on the 5th.
                            Some died as 4ths when
                            they should have had
                            some happiness, peace
                            of mind, and contentment
                            by receiving that 5th.
                            I've know several eckists
                            where this has happened.
                            It was no big deal to give
                            them their 5th initiation,
                            but some RESAs are mean-
                            spirited, lack empathy,
                            and are petty. They've
                            gotten caught up in HK's
                            game. All Eckists should
                            get the 5th after no more
                            than 20 years, especially,
                            when they participate
                            and are kept current on
                            their membership. However,
                            that's not the way the
                            power trip is played by
                            some RESAs.

                            I hate to admit this but
                            I helped the RESA when
                            asked about people. I
                            was quizzed about those
                            up for, usually, the 5th
                            and 6th initiation. I was
                            asked about what the EKist
                            said, how they acted and
                            conducted themselves
                            and any unusual things
                            that I noticed about
                            their behavior or performance.
                            And then I was asked for
                            my opinion. Unfortunately
                            my replies, I know, had
                            some initiations delayed
                            for these people and I
                            regret that I got caught
                            up in this petty mind game.
                            Some of these people are
                            still H.I.s and have no idea
                            why they had to wait so
                            long for their 5th or 6th.
                            Many probably think that
                            the Mahanta was testing
                            them! LOL! On the other
                            hand maybe some of them,
                            by now, have been asked
                            to evaluate people too.
                            I wonder if they put two
                            and two together and
                            figured it out, unless,
                            they were told why like
                            I had been told.

                            Why, though, should
                            Klemp have a system
                            for initiations that judges
                            and punishes Eckists
                            based upon our evaluations?
                            Where's that Inner Knowingness
                            of the Mahanta?

                            Besides, a 5th is no big
                            deal, and it's not like one
                            becomes a cleric automatically
                            with a 5th. Really, being
                            an 5th is no more being
                            an official representative
                            of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                            Yes, most Eckists have
                            no idea that a computer
                            generated eligibility list
                            is sent to the RESA by the
                            ESC and that phone calls
                            are made asking questions
                            where subjective answers
                            are given and that the RESA
                            uses these to either approve
                            and give a recommendation
                            for initiation or doesn't.
                            However, I will say that
                            any "No" has to have an
                            valid reason. The ESC
                            usually follows the RESAs'
                            recommendations.

                            BTW- Janice, I think that
                            your RESA approved of
                            your initiation because
                            he felt guilty for having
                            yelled at you, plus, you
                            could have reported him
                            to the ESC. Maybe the
                            initiation approval was
                            meant to appease you?

                            Prometheus


                            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                            Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person?

                            That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless.

                            In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                            I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all.

                            The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his time and hung up.

                            It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if that was part of it.

                            When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It was enough.

                            Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                            I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                            prometheus wrote:

                            Hello Janice,
                            Thanks for the interesting
                            reply and the sharing of
                            insights and experiences.
                            I really really enjoyed it
                            all.

                            The reason why someone
                            knew you received your
                            pink slip is because the
                            RESA gets an initiation
                            eligibility list where he/
                            she will mark yea/nay
                            for an initiation. When
                            the yea is checked the
                            ESC (membership services)
                            will more than likely issue
                            the pink slip for the initiation.
                            Or, the file has been red
                            flagged for some reason.
                            Klemp, I'm told, will put
                            a temporary hold on higher
                            initiations. Maybe it's due
                            to pending requirements
                            for training/retraining.
                            The ESC will notify the
                            RESA when the pink slip
                            is sent.

                            Most Eckists don't know
                            how the initiation process
                            works.

                            The RESA has a membership
                            list generated by the ESC
                            for all those EKists in their
                            region and it will show
                            initiation level, one's status
                            and date of membership
                            among other info. If a
                            new person sends in a
                            membership form to the
                            ESC from anywhere in
                            the RESA's region the RESA
                            will be notified of who
                            they are and their mailing
                            address.

                            I was glad Ford Johnson
                            wrote his book and that
                            I was told about it by an
                            Eckist who is still an H.I.
                            The Irony is that he was
                            doing Public Information
                            and was quite the gossip.

                            I always was the skeptic
                            and had trouble with a lot
                            of what I saw and experienced
                            around H.I.s.

                            When I was a lower initiate
                            I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                            spiritual nor anywhere close
                            to being enlightened. There
                            were too many contradictions,
                            restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                            Once you're an EK member
                            the next step is to get you
                            to become a volunteer on
                            HK's sales team.

                            I always wondered how
                            was there an "inner" connection
                            to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                            were still smoking and
                            drinking alcohol, but
                            getting promoted with
                            more initiations? I knew
                            of two 5ths who smoked
                            and drank and got pink
                            slips for the 6th. It's clear
                            that Klemp knows nothing
                            unless informed via phone
                            or snailmail... email now!

                            Yes, Janice, we were the
                            ones awakened to the Truth
                            while all of those "Higher"
                            (pretend) Initiates are still
                            sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                            become very skilled at
                            regurgitating the PR and
                            at facilitating and public
                            speaking. But, H.I.s have
                            no idea of what it's like
                            to be Free thinkers and
                            free of religion and of the
                            EK Hierarchy. They think
                            that their "spiritual experiences"
                            are unique when these
                            are common and similar
                            experiences that all religious
                            seekers have had... even
                            Christians!

                            Yes, we needed Eckankar
                            in order to fill a void and
                            to learn some important
                            lessons about ourselves
                            and about religion in general.

                            IMO, Those who left
                            Eckankar but still have
                            a need for religion, haven't
                            really learned that they
                            will never find answers
                            via a group consciousness
                            or via a guru/master.
                            True, it is nice to know
                            people of like mind and
                            to share things, but this
                            can be a bad thing as well
                            if we become too attached
                            or lazy and want to play
                            follow the leader again.

                            It all comes down to one's
                            private and personal experiences
                            and inner revelations with
                            oneSelf and with whatever
                            catalyst of "divine" creation.

                            Prometheus

                            Janice wrote:
                            I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                            Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                            I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                            Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                            How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                            That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                            The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                            Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                            I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                            I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                            I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                            Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                            Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                            Blessings to all of you.

                            prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                            > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                            > in Satsang Society "settler"
                            > and "explorer" positions at
                            > the EK Centers would trip
                            > over their egos and go on
                            > power trips. Many seemed
                            > cliquish and would huddle
                            > together. Then, again, some
                            > weren't all that friendly or
                            > were very introverted and
                            > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                            > including the clerics, to
                            > greet and talk to all of the
                            > new or seldom seen faces
                            > that showed up. Many
                            > only saw other Eckists at
                            > the monthly EWS and this
                            > was a time to catch up on
                            > things. This is why I'd
                            > suggest going to lunch
                            > after the EWS and socializing.
                            >
                            > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                            > True? I think so!
                            >
                            > Klemp's volunteer duties
                            > and requirements for Eckists
                            > means that they must take
                            > on extroverted roles in
                            > order to become H.I.s.
                            > Eckists must force themselves,
                            > against their innate natures,
                            > to become extroverted and
                            > egocentric. These leadership
                            > requirements create conflict,
                            > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                            > Thus, this imbalance that
                            > Klemp has created and
                            > reenforces aids him in
                            > the brainwashing of his
                            > flock to have programmed
                            > religious faith, beliefs, and
                            > mystical experiences. But,
                            > this has its toll and is why
                            > many long-time H.I.s choose
                            > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                            > and his anal control tactics.
                            >
                            > Sometimes, at special
                            > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                            > and mini retreats the
                            > long-time H.I.s, former
                            > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                            > members would gather
                            > around and gossip about
                            > those absent or present.
                            > Only, it wasn't seen as
                            > gossip but rationalized
                            > as more of an evaluative/
                            > investigative discussion
                            > for possible initiation
                            > recommendation or for
                            > a Satsang position appointment.
                            > They wanted to know,
                            > from sources who knew
                            > them, if there were problems
                            > with these EKists and, if
                            > so, what the specific details
                            > were. It was all ego driven
                            > and subjective because we
                            > were all volunteers and
                            > had family and personal
                            > lives too. But, it did weed
                            > out those who weren't as
                            > well indoctrinated....
                            > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                            > crap (busy work) was pretty
                            > much always a waste of
                            > time so, in the long run,
                            > enthusiasm was probably
                            > more important than acting
                            > the part. The Satsang positions
                            > and duties kept people
                            > busy, gave them a purpose
                            > and made them feel good,
                            > although, very stressed out.
                            >
                            > The Initiation game has made
                            > Eckists struggle with denying
                            > how much more they want of
                            > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                            >
                            > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                            > that an ESA told you that the
                            > people at the EK Center were
                            > crazy. That just isn't done
                            > and is part of HK's agenda
                            > of Silence and retraining.
                            >
                            > There's that old Buddha quote
                            > that Eckists sing and talk about
                            > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                            > and this is supposed to keep
                            > ECKists quiet or else they will
                            > sometimes get reported:
                            > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                            > this I ask myself before I
                            > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                            > following this criteria is very
                            > subjective and could or would
                            > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                            > conservations.
                            >
                            > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                            > may be "true" for you and
                            > for most people but not
                            > not for all people. And, is
                            > it "necessary" to exclaim
                            > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                            > this within earshot of people
                            > who aren't feeling well or
                            > who can't enjoy the day?
                            > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                            > to keep the critics of his
                            > policies and of his H.I.s
                            > to a minimum.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                            > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                            > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                            > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                            > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                            > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                            > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                            > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                            > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                            > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                            >
                            > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                            > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                            >
                            > Good to be away from it.
                            >
                            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            >
                            > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                            > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                            > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                            > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                            > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                            > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                            > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                            > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                            > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                            > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                            > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                            > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                            > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                            > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                            > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                            > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                            > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                            > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                            > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                            > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                            > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                            > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                            > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                            > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                            > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                            > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                            > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                            > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                            >
                            > Russ wrote:
                            > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                            > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                            > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                            > made him so popular in the eck community.
                            >
                            > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                            > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                            > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                            > things.
                            >
                            > Russ
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                            > What has me ROFLMAO is
                            > that Klemp has enough of
                            > a problem that he used it
                            > in the ASK The MASTER
                            > section of the H.I. Letter!
                            > And, it was the only question!
                            > They had, supposedly, an
                            > H.I. write-in and point out
                            > the problem. No name given.
                            >
                            > I remember when I had
                            > to deal with some older
                            > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                            > coordinator and director
                            > positions and it was
                            > impossible to get this
                            > one to follow the Guidelines
                            > on EK Worship Services
                            > (EWS). Many long-time
                            > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                            > Guidelines and my
                            > RESA turned a blind-
                            > eye to it all. We had
                            > so many former RESAs
                            > in volunteer positions
                            > that it was impossible
                            > to get them on the
                            > same page and to follow
                            > procedures. I think
                            > that some were just
                            > burned out and tired
                            > of Klemp's B.S. but
                            > didn't want to leave.
                            > Maybe they had too
                            > many friendships to
                            > lose. Plus, let's face
                            > it. A lot of these people
                            > are losers in the real
                            > world but are big shots
                            > in Eckankar. Those
                            > Higher Initiations are
                            > a big deal to the ego!
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                            > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                            > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                            > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                            > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                            > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                            >
                            > Non ;)
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello All,
                            > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                            > > Letter I've read that
                            > > Klemp still needs to
                            > > update his Guidelines
                            > > for the H.I.s in the
                            > > field and chastise
                            > > those who are slow
                            > > to get with the program.
                            > >
                            > > Many long-time H.I.s
                            > > want the freedom
                            > > of Soul to be more
                            > > individualistic,
                            > > spontaneous, and
                            > > creative by thinking
                            > > they (Soul) can operate
                            > > outside-of-the-box,
                            > > thus, being channels
                            > > for the ECK. Klemp
                            > > has previously stated
                            > > that he's imperfect,
                            > > but that's not the case
                            > > with the ECK, correct?
                            > >
                            > > Why, then, shouldn't
                            > > their current (Present)
                            > > Inner EK Guidance be
                            > > followed versus that
                            > > of outer set-in-stone
                            > > ESC Guidelines printed
                            > > in the Past and approved
                            > > by a committee of imperfect
                            > > people on a plane ruled
                            > > by the KAL?
                            > >
                            > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                            > > that freedom of expression
                            > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                            > > version of ECKankar.
                            > > It's a hierarchy where
                            > > everything is spelled
                            > > out and controlled
                            > > by him and his secret
                            > > RESA police, plus, all
                            > > field work must be
                            > > approved via the
                            > > current Guidelines.
                            > >
                            > > Many inexperienced
                            > > EKists like the idea of
                            > > being told how to do
                            > > this or that and what
                            > > approved books to use
                            > > and what to say and
                            > > other details to make
                            > > the promotion of
                            > > Eckankar easier.
                            > >
                            > > But the real point the
                            > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                            > > is to have EK PR more
                            > > consistent and cookie
                            > > cutter looking/sounding
                            > > for the public.
                            > >
                            > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                            > > are like following a
                            > > recipe set-in-stone
                            > > that disregards individual
                            > > or regional tastes and
                            > > disallows any additions
                            > > or omissions of other
                            > > ingredients, methods,
                            > > and/or spices.
                            > >
                            > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                            > > are about H.I.s resisting
                            > > change. He says they "rock
                            > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                            > > that "it's all about fear."
                            > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                            > > and "reinforce in each other
                            > > a group's opposition to
                            > > anything new." Strange
                            > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                            > > subject to fear since he's
                            > > supposed to protect them!
                            > > This is how the KAL works.
                            > > Klemp is his agent.
                            > >
                            > > However, the real 'change'
                            > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                            > > Klemp's nonsense and
                            > > heavy handed control tactics.
                            > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                            > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                            > > being bound to dogma.
                            > > HK side-steps delivering
                            > > on his promises of protection
                            > > and never has anything
                            > > profound to share. And,
                            > > where are those Higher
                            > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                            > > yardsticks in measuring
                            > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                            > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                            > > the long-con and is, thus,
                            > > stingy and self-serving.
                            > >
                            > > Harold goes on to say that
                            > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                            > > on the path to God instead
                            > > of being stepping stones."
                            > > Apparently, being creative
                            > > and spontaneous and
                            > > following "Inner Nudges"
                            > > and/or "Signs" are not
                            > > permitted if it conflicts
                            > > with the LEM's outer,
                            > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                            > >
                            > > The LEM states that, "We
                            > > are here to learn." However,
                            > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                            > > from others since he never
                            > > listens? He's the Top goD
                            > > and doesn't partake in
                            > > two-way dialogues with
                            > > those under his authority.
                            > >
                            > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                            > > and unloving as he continues
                            > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                            > > believe that if they sit still
                            > > and breathe only enough to
                            > > sustain life that they may
                            > > well dodge the lightning
                            > > strikes of irksome change."
                            > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                            > > like KAL! However, by doing
                            > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                            > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                            > > Don't EKists still die of all
                            > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                            > > that could have be averted
                            > > if they had gotten proper
                            > > and immediate care? Sure!
                            > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                            > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                            > > are meaningless... unless
                            > > you've given this Black
                            > > Magician power over you!
                            > >
                            > > But, it seems that HK
                            > > has something else stuck
                            > > in his craw. It seems to
                            > > me that Klemp doesn't
                            > > like his 7ths just sitting
                            > > still and Contemplating
                            > > or HUing, and enjoying
                            > > life. But why shouldn't
                            > > they take it easy after
                            > > 40 years of doing PR
                            > > work for Eckankar!
                            > >
                            > > So, what does Klemp
                            > > the All compassionate,
                            > > loving, positive, and
                            > > empathetic icon of EK
                            > > conclude?
                            > >
                            > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                            > > refuses to adhere to
                            > > the ECK Guidelines
                            > > needs to be addressed
                            > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                            > > I wonder what that
                            > > really means? Well,
                            > > unless you're already
                            > > a 7th you can kiss that
                            > > next initiation good-bye
                            > > for like 10-20 years!
                            > >
                            > > Klemp continues to say,
                            > > "These are big stakes!
                            > > Continued refusal means
                            > > it's time for a replacement
                            > > to step in. A change is
                            > > due. Change. isn't it
                            > > funny how we have come
                            > > full circle?" No! It's not
                            > > really funny. Klemp
                            > > abuses the concept
                            > > of "change" and makes
                            > > it into a misnomer.
                            > >
                            > > What "changes" are there
                            > > in Eckankar? The same
                            > > old things are merely
                            > > revisited, updated, dusted
                            > > off and made to seem
                            > > "new." It's all a facade,
                            > > smoke and mirrors, and
                            > > a game of pretend by
                            > > creating brightly colored
                            > > straws to grab at and
                            > > cling to when drowning.
                            > >
                            > > Too bad that EKists are
                            > > so deluded and needy
                            > > and aren't able to read
                            > > between the lines and
                            > > see the real truth behind
                            > > Klemp's words and methods.
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus

                          • Russ Rodnick
                            Janice, I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member.  I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and
                            Message 13 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Janice,

                              I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member. 

                              I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'. 

                              That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                              On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                              I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know. 

                              Later,
                              Russ


                              From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:37 PM
                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                               
                              Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                               
                              Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                               
                              That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                               
                              In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                               
                               I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                               
                              The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                               
                              It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                               
                              When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                               
                              Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                               
                              I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                              --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                               
                              Hello Janice,
                              Thanks for the interesting
                              reply and the sharing of
                              insights and experiences.
                              I really really enjoyed it
                              all.

                              The reason why someone
                              knew you received your
                              pink slip is because the
                              RESA gets an initiation
                              eligibility list where he/
                              she will mark yea/nay
                              for an initiation. When
                              the yea is checked the
                              ESC (membership services)
                              will more than likely issue
                              the pink slip for the initiation.
                              Or, the file has been red
                              flagged for some reason.
                              Klemp, I'm told, will put
                              a temporary hold on higher
                              initiations. Maybe it's due
                              to pending requirements
                              for training/retraining.
                              The ESC will notify the
                              RESA when the pink slip
                              is sent.

                              Most Eckists don't know
                              how the initiation process
                              works.

                              The RESA has a membership
                              list generated by the ESC
                              for all those EKists in their
                              region and it will show
                              initiation level, one's status
                              and date of membership
                              among other info. If a
                              new person sends in a
                              membership form to the
                              ESC from anywhere in
                              the RESA's region the RESA
                              will be notified of who
                              they are and their mailing
                              address.

                              I was glad Ford Johnson
                              wrote his book and that
                              I was told about it by an
                              Eckist who is still an H.I.
                              The Irony is that he was
                              doing Public Information
                              and was quite the gossip.

                              I always was the skeptic
                              and had trouble with a lot
                              of what I saw and experienced
                              around H.I.s.

                              When I was a lower initiate
                              I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                              spiritual nor anywhere close
                              to being enlightened. There
                              were too many contradictions,
                              restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                              Once you're an EK member
                              the next step is to get you
                              to become a volunteer on
                              HK's sales team.

                              I always wondered how
                              was there an "inner" connection
                              to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                              were still smoking and
                              drinking alcohol, but
                              getting promoted with
                              more initiations? I knew
                              of two 5ths who smoked
                              and drank and got pink
                              slips for the 6th. It's clear
                              that Klemp knows nothing
                              unless informed via phone
                              or snailmail... email now!

                              Yes, Janice, we were the
                              ones awakened to the Truth
                              while all of those "Higher"
                              (pretend) Initiates are still
                              sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                              become very skilled at
                              regurgitating the PR and
                              at facilitating and public
                              speaking. But, H.I.s have
                              no idea of what it's like
                              to be Free thinkers and
                              free of religion and of the
                              EK Hierarchy. They think
                              that their "spiritual experiences"
                              are unique when these
                              are common and similar
                              experiences that all religious
                              seekers have had... even
                              Christians!

                              Yes, we needed Eckankar
                              in order to fill a void and
                              to learn some important
                              lessons about ourselves
                              and about religion in general.

                              IMO, Those who left
                              Eckankar but still have
                              a need for religion, haven't
                              really learned that they
                              will never find answers
                              via a group consciousness
                              or via a guru/master.
                              True, it is nice to know
                              people of like mind and
                              to share things, but this
                              can be a bad thing as well
                              if we become too attached
                              or lazy and want to play
                              follow the leader again.

                              It all comes down to one's
                              private and personal experiences
                              and inner revelations with
                              oneSelf and with whatever
                              catalyst of "divine" creation.

                              Prometheus

                              Janice wrote:
                              I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                              Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                              I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                              Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                              How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                              That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                              The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                              Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                              I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                              I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                              I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                              Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                              Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                              Blessings to all of you.


                              prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                              > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                              > in Satsang Society "settler"
                              > and "explorer" positions at
                              > the EK Centers would trip
                              > over their egos and go on
                              > power trips. Many seemed
                              > cliquish and would huddle
                              > together. Then, again, some
                              > weren't all that friendly or
                              > were very introverted and
                              > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                              > including the clerics, to
                              > greet and talk to all of the
                              > new or seldom seen faces
                              > that showed up. Many
                              > only saw other Eckists at
                              > the monthly EWS and this
                              > was a time to catch up on
                              > things. This is why I'd
                              > suggest going to lunch
                              > after the EWS and socializing.
                              >
                              > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                              > True? I think so!
                              >
                              > Klemp's volunteer duties
                              > and requirements for Eckists
                              > means that they must take
                              > on extroverted roles in
                              > order to become H.I.s.
                              > Eckists must force themselves,
                              > against their innate natures,
                              > to become extroverted and
                              > egocentric. These leadership
                              > requirements create conflict,
                              > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                              > Thus, this imbalance that
                              > Klemp has created and
                              > reenforces aids him in
                              > the brainwashing of his
                              > flock to have programmed
                              > religious faith, beliefs, and
                              > mystical experiences. But,
                              > this has its toll and is why
                              > many long-time H.I.s choose
                              > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                              > and his anal control tactics.
                              >
                              > Sometimes, at special
                              > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                              > and mini retreats the
                              > long-time H.I.s, former
                              > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                              > members would gather
                              > around and gossip about
                              > those absent or present.
                              > Only, it wasn't seen as
                              > gossip but rationalized
                              > as more of an evaluative/
                              > investigative discussion
                              > for possible initiation
                              > recommendation or for
                              > a Satsang position appointment.
                              > They wanted to know,
                              > from sources who knew
                              > them, if there were problems
                              > with these EKists and, if
                              > so, what the specific details
                              > were. It was all ego driven
                              > and subjective because we
                              > were all volunteers and
                              > had family and personal
                              > lives too. But, it did weed
                              > out those who weren't as
                              > well indoctrinated....
                              > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                              > crap (busy work) was pretty
                              > much always a waste of
                              > time so, in the long run,
                              > enthusiasm was probably
                              > more important than acting
                              > the part. The Satsang positions
                              > and duties kept people
                              > busy, gave them a purpose
                              > and made them feel good,
                              > although, very stressed out.
                              >
                              > The Initiation game has made
                              > Eckists struggle with denying
                              > how much more they want of
                              > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                              >
                              > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                              > that an ESA told you that the
                              > people at the EK Center were
                              > crazy. That just isn't done
                              > and is part of HK's agenda
                              > of Silence and retraining.
                              >
                              > There's that old Buddha quote
                              > that Eckists sing and talk about
                              > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                              > and this is supposed to keep
                              > ECKists quiet or else they will
                              > sometimes get reported:
                              > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                              > this I ask myself before I
                              > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                              > following this criteria is very
                              > subjective and could or would
                              > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                              > conservations.
                              >
                              > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                              > may be "true" for you and
                              > for most people but not
                              > not for all people. And, is
                              > it "necessary" to exclaim
                              > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                              > this within earshot of people
                              > who aren't feeling well or
                              > who can't enjoy the day?
                              > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                              > to keep the critics of his
                              > policies and of his H.I.s
                              > to a minimum.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                              > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                              > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                              > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                              > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                              > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                              > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                              > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                              > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                              > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                              >
                              > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                              > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                              >
                              > Good to be away from it.
                              >
                              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              >
                              > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                              > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                              > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                              > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                              > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                              > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                              > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                              > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                              > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                              > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                              > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                              > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                              > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                              > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                              > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                              > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                              > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                              > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                              > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                              > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                              > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                              > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                              > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                              > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                              > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                              > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                              > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                              > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                              >
                              > Russ wrote:
                              > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                              > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                              > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                              > made him so popular in the eck community.
                              >
                              > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                              > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                              > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                              > things.
                              >
                              > Russ
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                              > What has me ROFLMAO is
                              > that Klemp has enough of
                              > a problem that he used it
                              > in the ASK The MASTER
                              > section of the H.I. Letter!
                              > And, it was the only question!
                              > They had, supposedly, an
                              > H.I. write-in and point out
                              > the problem. No name given.
                              >
                              > I remember when I had
                              > to deal with some older
                              > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                              > coordinator and director
                              > positions and it was
                              > impossible to get this
                              > one to follow the Guidelines
                              > on EK Worship Services
                              > (EWS). Many long-time
                              > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                              > Guidelines and my
                              > RESA turned a blind-
                              > eye to it all. We had
                              > so many former RESAs
                              > in volunteer positions
                              > that it was impossible
                              > to get them on the
                              > same page and to follow
                              > procedures. I think
                              > that some were just
                              > burned out and tired
                              > of Klemp's B.S. but
                              > didn't want to leave.
                              > Maybe they had too
                              > many friendships to
                              > lose. Plus, let's face
                              > it. A lot of these people
                              > are losers in the real
                              > world but are big shots
                              > in Eckankar. Those
                              > Higher Initiations are
                              > a big deal to the ego!
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                              > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                              > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                              > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                              > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                              > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                              >
                              > Non ;)
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello All,
                              > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                              > > Letter I've read that
                              > > Klemp still needs to
                              > > update his Guidelines
                              > > for the H.I.s in the
                              > > field and chastise
                              > > those who are slow
                              > > to get with the program.
                              > >
                              > > Many long-time H.I.s
                              > > want the freedom
                              > > of Soul to be more
                              > > individualistic,
                              > > spontaneous, and
                              > > creative by thinking
                              > > they (Soul) can operate
                              > > outside-of-the-box,
                              > > thus, being channels
                              > > for the ECK. Klemp
                              > > has previously stated
                              > > that he's imperfect,
                              > > but that's not the case
                              > > with the ECK, correct?
                              > >
                              > > Why, then, shouldn't
                              > > their current (Present)
                              > > Inner EK Guidance be
                              > > followed versus that
                              > > of outer set-in-stone
                              > > ESC Guidelines printed
                              > > in the Past and approved
                              > > by a committee of imperfect
                              > > people on a plane ruled
                              > > by the KAL?
                              > >
                              > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                              > > that freedom of expression
                              > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                              > > version of ECKankar.
                              > > It's a hierarchy where
                              > > everything is spelled
                              > > out and controlled
                              > > by him and his secret
                              > > RESA police, plus, all
                              > > field work must be
                              > > approved via the
                              > > current Guidelines.
                              > >
                              > > Many inexperienced
                              > > EKists like the idea of
                              > > being told how to do
                              > > this or that and what
                              > > approved books to use
                              > > and what to say and
                              > > other details to make
                              > > the promotion of
                              > > Eckankar easier.
                              > >
                              > > But the real point the
                              > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                              > > is to have EK PR more
                              > > consistent and cookie
                              > > cutter looking/sounding
                              > > for the public.
                              > >
                              > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                              > > are like following a
                              > > recipe set-in-stone
                              > > that disregards individual
                              > > or regional tastes and
                              > > disallows any additions
                              > > or omissions of other
                              > > ingredients, methods,
                              > > and/or spices.
                              > >
                              > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                              > > are about H.I.s resisting
                              > > change. He says they "rock
                              > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                              > > that "it's all about fear."
                              > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                              > > and "reinforce in each other
                              > > a group's opposition to
                              > > anything new." Strange
                              > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                              > > subject to fear since he's
                              > > supposed to protect them!
                              > > This is how the KAL works.
                              > > Klemp is his agent.
                              > >
                              > > However, the real 'change'
                              > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                              > > Klemp's nonsense and
                              > > heavy handed control tactics.
                              > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                              > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                              > > being bound to dogma.
                              > > HK side-steps delivering
                              > > on his promises of protection
                              > > and never has anything
                              > > profound to share. And,
                              > > where are those Higher
                              > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                              > > yardsticks in measuring
                              > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                              > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                              > > the long-con and is, thus,
                              > > stingy and self-serving.
                              > >
                              > > Harold goes on to say that
                              > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                              > > on the path to God instead
                              > > of being stepping stones."
                              > > Apparently, being creative
                              > > and spontaneous and
                              > > following "Inner Nudges"
                              > > and/or "Signs" are not
                              > > permitted if it conflicts
                              > > with the LEM's outer,
                              > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                              > >
                              > > The LEM states that, "We
                              > > are here to learn." However,
                              > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                              > > from others since he never
                              > > listens? He's the Top goD
                              > > and doesn't partake in
                              > > two-way dialogues with
                              > > those under his authority.
                              > >
                              > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                              > > and unloving as he continues
                              > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                              > > believe that if they sit still
                              > > and breathe only enough to
                              > > sustain life that they may
                              > > well dodge the lightning
                              > > strikes of irksome change."
                              > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                              > > like KAL! However, by doing
                              > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                              > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                              > > Don't EKists still die of all
                              > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                              > > that could have be averted
                              > > if they had gotten proper
                              > > and immediate care? Sure!
                              > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                              > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                              > > are meaningless... unless
                              > > you've given this Black
                              > > Magician power over you!
                              > >
                              > > But, it seems that HK
                              > > has something else stuck
                              > > in his craw. It seems to
                              > > me that Klemp doesn't
                              > > like his 7ths just sitting
                              > > still and Contemplating
                              > > or HUing, and enjoying
                              > > life. But why shouldn't
                              > > they take it easy after
                              > > 40 years of doing PR
                              > > work for Eckankar!
                              > >
                              > > So, what does Klemp
                              > > the All compassionate,
                              > > loving, positive, and
                              > > empathetic icon of EK
                              > > conclude?
                              > >
                              > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                              > > refuses to adhere to
                              > > the ECK Guidelines
                              > > needs to be addressed
                              > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                              > > I wonder what that
                              > > really means? Well,
                              > > unless you're already
                              > > a 7th you can kiss that
                              > > next initiation good-bye
                              > > for like 10-20 years!
                              > >
                              > > Klemp continues to say,
                              > > "These are big stakes!
                              > > Continued refusal means
                              > > it's time for a replacement
                              > > to step in. A change is
                              > > due. Change. isn't it
                              > > funny how we have come
                              > > full circle?" No! It's not
                              > > really funny. Klemp
                              > > abuses the concept
                              > > of "change" and makes
                              > > it into a misnomer.
                              > >
                              > > What "changes" are there
                              > > in Eckankar? The same
                              > > old things are merely
                              > > revisited, updated, dusted
                              > > off and made to seem
                              > > "new." It's all a facade,
                              > > smoke and mirrors, and
                              > > a game of pretend by
                              > > creating brightly colored
                              > > straws to grab at and
                              > > cling to when drowning.
                              > >
                              > > Too bad that EKists are
                              > > so deluded and needy
                              > > and aren't able to read
                              > > between the lines and
                              > > see the real truth behind
                              > > Klemp's words and methods.
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              >



                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Russ, Janice, and All, The initiation eligibility list is generated on eckists after they have completed so many years and/or requirements as members in
                              Message 14 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
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                                Hello Russ, Janice, and All,
                                The initiation eligibility list
                                is generated on eckists
                                after they have completed
                                so many years and/or
                                requirements as members
                                in good standing. Delays
                                in payment of membership
                                fees (i.e. breaks) or rest
                                periods will affect people's
                                names from appearing
                                on the eligibility list.

                                Sometimes Eckists can call
                                Membership Services with
                                concern that they've been
                                passed over. If, in fact, they've
                                waited longer than normal
                                and there are No red flags
                                in their file sometimes the
                                ESC will generate a pink
                                slip without RESA input.
                                Plus, it always helps to
                                know people in high places.
                                I suggested doing this to
                                a 4th who had been waiting
                                longer than normal and
                                within a month or so she
                                got her pink slip. Funny!
                                BTW- I swore her to secrecy
                                and Not to mention my name!

                                Many H.I.s don't know about
                                how the EK Initiation system
                                really works because it's very
                                secretive. If anyone shared this
                                info they would be banned from
                                holding any Satsang positions,
                                receiving any more initiations,
                                and have their file at the ESC
                                red flagged. [Klemp generally
                                states that those EKists divulging
                                secrets will have their spiritual
                                growth halted, but doesn't say
                                how it's done].

                                In any case, I've known people
                                who suspected their files were
                                red flagged and was told that
                                when calling into the ESC to
                                renew their membership that
                                when their data came up that
                                there was a long pause and
                                the tone of voice of the staffer
                                changed.

                                Eckists should know that they
                                are under scrutiny at all times
                                and certain innocent comments
                                or behaviour will stand out to
                                those judging and looking to
                                find fault. The devil is in the
                                details. For Eckists to know
                                and follow the current Guidelines,
                                the Four Zoas, to volunteer
                                and always sound like an EK
                                Brochure is still not enough.
                                They need to make friendships
                                with the H.I.s in their region,
                                with their RESA, and with those
                                at the ESC via seminars. One
                                has to psyche themselves
                                into seeing all of the flawed,
                                ego driven, power hungry
                                H.I.s as their friend whether
                                it's true or not. And, you still
                                have to watch what you say.

                                An example of watching what
                                you say is to never bring up
                                Darwin's name. You don't know
                                whether or not someone within
                                earshot is going to tell the RESA
                                about this. There are RESA spys
                                and members of the RESA's
                                secret police everywhere.
                                They might be in "official" roles
                                but they are used in the same
                                way. And, don't be talking about
                                and promoting Metaphysics,
                                psyche readings, etc. around
                                Eckists or selling some product,
                                especially, at the EK Center!
                                This will get one's next initiation
                                delayed as well.

                                As I stated before, those
                                EKists involved with charting
                                their ancestry are taking
                                a chance on being passed
                                over too. Eckists believe in
                                reincarnation and Soul, thus,
                                tracing ancestry and getting
                                caught up with one's "heritage"
                                is seen as a moot point, a
                                distraction, and not being
                                well grounded in the ECK
                                teachings. It's seen as a
                                detriment and will prevent
                                one from "advancing" to that
                                next coveted EK initiation.

                                The initiation game, whether
                                Eckists want to admit to it
                                or not, is the most powerful
                                driving force within Eckankar.

                                Prometheus

                                Russ wrote:
                                Janice,

                                I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member.

                                I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'.

                                That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                                On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                                I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know.

                                Later,
                                Russ




                                Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                >
                                > Thanks again Prometheus,
                                 
                                > The very fact that this resa thought I was asking about my own initiations and he had to insist that he had said nothing about me was proof that what I had been told,  was in fact true.  I didn't ask about my own and I said nothing about anything he might have said.  I was asking about how all initiations came about.  Yes, the initial info I got was the computer generated the list and  then the locals were questioned.
                                >  
                                > For the longest time I did consider writing Minneapolis about my experiences.  The reason I finally decided against it was, I thought it would only help eckankar sharpen it's con game by telling them about it's weaknesses.  Why help people become better liars and cheaters?
                                >  
                                > It never occurred to me to try and take action about the resa screaming at me.  He was clearly out of control.  When I am dealing with a person whose behavior is so erratic, I just can't take their opinions seriously.  Besides, it was just more proof that the whole org ran like a circus filled with clowns and the bigger the nut job, the more likely they would advance.  I don't think klemp himself would give me a straight answer for what I ask and most likely if I got one at all, it wouldn't be an intelligent one.
                                >  
                                > According to what you are saying even HI's didn't know the truth about initiations. I take it only those in some kind of local leadership roles were asked about individuals.
                                >  
                                > After hearing what  you say, I feel very lucky that I found out as early as I did.  It must be a closely guarded secret. Until now, I assumed that all HI's did know and I couldn't understand why the lies about it kept being perpetuated down. 
                                >  
                                > You have given me just what I needed to know.  Most eckist remain in the dark no matter how long they are in.  Wow, that's a mind blower.  You have to admit, it is quite an ingenious con.  I do appreciate your frank answer. 
                                >  
                                > As always, thanks for all you give.
                                >  

                                prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Janice,
                                > Most H.I.s have no idea
                                > how the EK Initiation
                                > process works. It's sad
                                > because there are some
                                > really nice and gentile
                                > chelas who have been
                                > passed over on the 5th.
                                > Some died as 4ths when
                                > they should have had
                                > some happiness, peace
                                > of mind, and contentment
                                > by receiving that 5th.
                                > I've know several eckists
                                > where this has happened.
                                > It was no big deal to give
                                > them their 5th initiation,
                                > but some RESAs are mean-
                                > spirited, lack empathy,
                                > and are petty. They've
                                > gotten caught up in HK's
                                > game. All Eckists should
                                > get the 5th after no more
                                > than 20 years, especially,
                                > when they participate
                                > and are kept current on
                                > their membership. However,
                                > that's not the way the
                                > power trip is played by
                                > some RESAs.
                                >
                                > I hate to admit this but
                                > I helped the RESA when
                                > asked about people. I
                                > was quizzed about those
                                > up for, usually, the 5th
                                > and 6th initiation. I was
                                > asked about what the EKist
                                > said, how they acted and
                                > conducted themselves
                                > and any unusual things
                                > that I noticed about
                                > their behavior or performance.
                                > And then I was asked for
                                > my opinion. Unfortunately
                                > my replies, I know, had
                                > some initiations delayed
                                > for these people and I
                                > regret that I got caught
                                > up in this petty mind game.
                                > Some of these people are
                                > still H.I.s and have no idea
                                > why they had to wait so
                                > long for their 5th or 6th.
                                > Many probably think that
                                > the Mahanta was testing
                                > them! LOL! On the other
                                > hand maybe some of them,
                                > by now, have been asked
                                > to evaluate people too.
                                > I wonder if they put two
                                > and two together and
                                > figured it out, unless,
                                > they were told why like
                                > I had been told.
                                >
                                > Why, though, should
                                > Klemp have a system
                                > for initiations that judges
                                > and punishes Eckists
                                > based upon our evaluations?
                                > Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                > of the Mahanta?
                                >
                                > Besides, a 5th is no big
                                > deal, and it's not like one
                                > becomes a cleric automatically
                                > with a 5th. Really, being
                                > an 5th is no more being
                                > an official representative
                                > of Eckankar than is a 4th.
                                >
                                > Yes, most Eckists have
                                > no idea that a computer
                                > generated eligibility list
                                > is sent to the RESA by the
                                > ESC and that phone calls
                                > are made asking questions
                                > where subjective answers
                                > are given and that the RESA
                                > uses these to either approve
                                > and give a recommendation
                                > for initiation or doesn't.
                                > However, I will say that
                                > any "No" has to have an
                                > valid reason. The ESC
                                > usually follows the RESAs'
                                > recommendations.
                                >
                                > BTW- Janice, I think that
                                > your RESA approved of
                                > your initiation because
                                > he felt guilty for having
                                > yelled at you, plus, you
                                > could have reported him
                                > to the ESC. Maybe the
                                > initiation approval was
                                > meant to appease you?
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                > Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.
                                >
                                > Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person?
                                >
                                > That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless.
                                >
                                > In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?
                                >
                                > I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all.
                                >
                                > The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his time and hung up.
                                >
                                > It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if that was part of it.
                                >
                                > When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It was enough.
                                >
                                > Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.
                                >
                                > I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.
                                >
                                > prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Janice,
                                > Thanks for the interesting
                                > reply and the sharing of
                                > insights and experiences.
                                > I really really enjoyed it
                                > all.
                                >
                                > The reason why someone
                                > knew you received your
                                > pink slip is because the
                                > RESA gets an initiation
                                > eligibility list where he/
                                > she will mark yea/nay
                                > for an initiation. When
                                > the yea is checked the
                                > ESC (membership services)
                                > will more than likely issue
                                > the pink slip for the initiation.
                                > Or, the file has been red
                                > flagged for some reason.
                                > Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                > a temporary hold on higher
                                > initiations. Maybe it's due
                                > to pending requirements
                                > for training/retraining.
                                > The ESC will notify the
                                > RESA when the pink slip
                                > is sent.
                                >
                                > Most Eckists don't know
                                > how the initiation process
                                > works.
                                >
                                > The RESA has a membership
                                > list generated by the ESC
                                > for all those EKists in their
                                > region and it will show
                                > initiation level, one's status
                                > and date of membership
                                > among other info. If a
                                > new person sends in a
                                > membership form to the
                                > ESC from anywhere in
                                > the RESA's region the RESA
                                > will be notified of who
                                > they are and their mailing
                                > address.
                                >
                                > I was glad Ford Johnson
                                > wrote his book and that
                                > I was told about it by an
                                > Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                > The Irony is that he was
                                > doing Public Information
                                > and was quite the gossip.
                                >
                                > I always was the skeptic
                                > and had trouble with a lot
                                > of what I saw and experienced
                                > around H.I.s.
                                >
                                > When I was a lower initiate
                                > I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                > spiritual nor anywhere close
                                > to being enlightened. There
                                > were too many contradictions,
                                > restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                > Once you're an EK member
                                > the next step is to get you
                                > to become a volunteer on
                                > HK's sales team.
                                >
                                > I always wondered how
                                > was there an "inner" connection
                                > to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                > were still smoking and
                                > drinking alcohol, but
                                > getting promoted with
                                > more initiations? I knew
                                > of two 5ths who smoked
                                > and drank and got pink
                                > slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                > that Klemp knows nothing
                                > unless informed via phone
                                > or snailmail... email now!
                                >
                                > Yes, Janice, we were the
                                > ones awakened to the Truth
                                > while all of those "Higher"
                                > (pretend) Initiates are still
                                > sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                > become very skilled at
                                > regurgitating the PR and
                                > at facilitating and public
                                > speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                > no idea of what it's like
                                > to be Free thinkers and
                                > free of religion and of the
                                > EK Hierarchy. They think
                                > that their "spiritual experiences"
                                > are unique when these
                                > are common and similar
                                > experiences that all religious
                                > seekers have had... even
                                > Christians!
                                >
                                > Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                > in order to fill a void and
                                > to learn some important
                                > lessons about ourselves
                                > and about religion in general.
                                >
                                > IMO, Those who left
                                > Eckankar but still have
                                > a need for religion, haven't
                                > really learned that they
                                > will never find answers
                                > via a group consciousness
                                > or via a guru/master.
                                > True, it is nice to know
                                > people of like mind and
                                > to share things, but this
                                > can be a bad thing as well
                                > if we become too attached
                                > or lazy and want to play
                                > follow the leader again.
                                >
                                > It all comes down to one's
                                > private and personal experiences
                                > and inner revelations with
                                > oneSelf and with whatever
                                > catalyst of "divine" creation.
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                > Janice wrote:
                                > I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.
                                >
                                > Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.
                                >
                                > I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.
                                >
                                > Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.
                                >
                                > How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.
                                >
                                > That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.
                                >
                                > The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.
                                >
                                > Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.
                                >
                                > I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.
                                >
                                > I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.
                                >
                                > I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.
                                >
                                > Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.
                                >
                                > Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.
                                >
                                > Blessings to all of you.
                                >
                                > prometheus wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                > > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                > > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                > > and "explorer" positions at
                                > > the EK Centers would trip
                                > > over their egos and go on
                                > > power trips. Many seemed
                                > > cliquish and would huddle
                                > > together. Then, again, some
                                > > weren't all that friendly or
                                > > were very introverted and
                                > > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                > > including the clerics, to
                                > > greet and talk to all of the
                                > > new or seldom seen faces
                                > > that showed up. Many
                                > > only saw other Eckists at
                                > > the monthly EWS and this
                                > > was a time to catch up on
                                > > things. This is why I'd
                                > > suggest going to lunch
                                > > after the EWS and socializing.
                                > >
                                > > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                > > True? I think so!
                                > >
                                > > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                > > and requirements for Eckists
                                > > means that they must take
                                > > on extroverted roles in
                                > > order to become H.I.s.
                                > > Eckists must force themselves,
                                > > against their innate natures,
                                > > to become extroverted and
                                > > egocentric. These leadership
                                > > requirements create conflict,
                                > > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                > > Thus, this imbalance that
                                > > Klemp has created and
                                > > reenforces aids him in
                                > > the brainwashing of his
                                > > flock to have programmed
                                > > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                > > mystical experiences. But,
                                > > this has its toll and is why
                                > > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                > > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                > > and his anal control tactics.
                                > >
                                > > Sometimes, at special
                                > > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                > > and mini retreats the
                                > > long-time H.I.s, former
                                > > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                > > members would gather
                                > > around and gossip about
                                > > those absent or present.
                                > > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                > > gossip but rationalized
                                > > as more of an evaluative/
                                > > investigative discussion
                                > > for possible initiation
                                > > recommendation or for
                                > > a Satsang position appointment.
                                > > They wanted to know,
                                > > from sources who knew
                                > > them, if there were problems
                                > > with these EKists and, if
                                > > so, what the specific details
                                > > were. It was all ego driven
                                > > and subjective because we
                                > > were all volunteers and
                                > > had family and personal
                                > > lives too. But, it did weed
                                > > out those who weren't as
                                > > well indoctrinated....
                                > > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                > > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                > > much always a waste of
                                > > time so, in the long run,
                                > > enthusiasm was probably
                                > > more important than acting
                                > > the part. The Satsang positions
                                > > and duties kept people
                                > > busy, gave them a purpose
                                > > and made them feel good,
                                > > although, very stressed out.
                                > >
                                > > The Initiation game has made
                                > > Eckists struggle with denying
                                > > how much more they want of
                                > > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                > >
                                > > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                > > that an ESA told you that the
                                > > people at the EK Center were
                                > > crazy. That just isn't done
                                > > and is part of HK's agenda
                                > > of Silence and retraining.
                                > >
                                > > There's that old Buddha quote
                                > > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                > > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                > > and this is supposed to keep
                                > > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                > > sometimes get reported:
                                > > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                > > this I ask myself before I
                                > > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                > > following this criteria is very
                                > > subjective and could or would
                                > > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                > > conservations.
                                > >
                                > > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                > > may be "true" for you and
                                > > for most people but not
                                > > not for all people. And, is
                                > > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                > > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                > > this within earshot of people
                                > > who aren't feeling well or
                                > > who can't enjoy the day?
                                > > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                > > to keep the critics of his
                                > > policies and of his H.I.s
                                > > to a minimum.
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                > > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                > > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                > > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                > > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                > > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                > > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                > > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                > > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                > > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                > >
                                > > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                > > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                > >
                                > > Good to be away from it.
                                > >
                                > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                > > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                > > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                > > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                > > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                > > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                > > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                > > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                > > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                > > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                > > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                > > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                > > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                > > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                > > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                > > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                > > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                > > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                > > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                > > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                > > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                > > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                > > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                > > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                > > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                > > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                > > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                > > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                > >
                                > > Russ wrote:
                                > > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                > > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                > > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                > > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                > >
                                > > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                > > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                > > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                > > things.
                                > >
                                > > Russ
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > prometheus wrote:
                                > > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                > > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                > > that Klemp has enough of
                                > > a problem that he used it
                                > > in the ASK The MASTER
                                > > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                > > And, it was the only question!
                                > > They had, supposedly, an
                                > > H.I. write-in and point out
                                > > the problem. No name given.
                                > >
                                > > I remember when I had
                                > > to deal with some older
                                > > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                > > coordinator and director
                                > > positions and it was
                                > > impossible to get this
                                > > one to follow the Guidelines
                                > > on EK Worship Services
                                > > (EWS). Many long-time
                                > > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                > > Guidelines and my
                                > > RESA turned a blind-
                                > > eye to it all. We had
                                > > so many former RESAs
                                > > in volunteer positions
                                > > that it was impossible
                                > > to get them on the
                                > > same page and to follow
                                > > procedures. I think
                                > > that some were just
                                > > burned out and tired
                                > > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                > > didn't want to leave.
                                > > Maybe they had too
                                > > many friendships to
                                > > lose. Plus, let's face
                                > > it. A lot of these people
                                > > are losers in the real
                                > > world but are big shots
                                > > in Eckankar. Those
                                > > Higher Initiations are
                                > > a big deal to the ego!
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                > > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                > > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                > > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                > > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                > > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                > >
                                > > Non ;)
                                > >
                                > > prometheus wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Hello All,
                                > > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                > > > Letter I've read that
                                > > > Klemp still needs to
                                > > > update his Guidelines
                                > > > for the H.I.s in the
                                > > > field and chastise
                                > > > those who are slow
                                > > > to get with the program.
                                > > >
                                > > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                > > > want the freedom
                                > > > of Soul to be more
                                > > > individualistic,
                                > > > spontaneous, and
                                > > > creative by thinking
                                > > > they (Soul) can operate
                                > > > outside-of-the-box,
                                > > > thus, being channels
                                > > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                > > > has previously stated
                                > > > that he's imperfect,
                                > > > but that's not the case
                                > > > with the ECK, correct?
                                > > >
                                > > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                > > > their current (Present)
                                > > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                > > > followed versus that
                                > > > of outer set-in-stone
                                > > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                > > > in the Past and approved
                                > > > by a committee of imperfect
                                > > > people on a plane ruled
                                > > > by the KAL?
                                > > >
                                > > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                > > > that freedom of expression
                                > > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                > > > version of ECKankar.
                                > > > It's a hierarchy where
                                > > > everything is spelled
                                > > > out and controlled
                                > > > by him and his secret
                                > > > RESA police, plus, all
                                > > > field work must be
                                > > > approved via the
                                > > > current Guidelines.
                                > > >
                                > > > Many inexperienced
                                > > > EKists like the idea of
                                > > > being told how to do
                                > > > this or that and what
                                > > > approved books to use
                                > > > and what to say and
                                > > > other details to make
                                > > > the promotion of
                                > > > Eckankar easier.
                                > > >
                                > > > But the real point the
                                > > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                > > > is to have EK PR more
                                > > > consistent and cookie
                                > > > cutter looking/sounding
                                > > > for the public.
                                > > >
                                > > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                > > > are like following a
                                > > > recipe set-in-stone
                                > > > that disregards individual
                                > > > or regional tastes and
                                > > > disallows any additions
                                > > > or omissions of other
                                > > > ingredients, methods,
                                > > > and/or spices.
                                > > >
                                > > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                > > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                > > > change. He says they "rock
                                > > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                > > > that "it's all about fear."
                                > > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                > > > and "reinforce in each other
                                > > > a group's opposition to
                                > > > anything new." Strange
                                > > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                > > > subject to fear since he's
                                > > > supposed to protect them!
                                > > > This is how the KAL works.
                                > > > Klemp is his agent.
                                > > >
                                > > > However, the real 'change'
                                > > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                > > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                > > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                > > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                > > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                > > > being bound to dogma.
                                > > > HK side-steps delivering
                                > > > on his promises of protection
                                > > > and never has anything
                                > > > profound to share. And,
                                > > > where are those Higher
                                > > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                > > > yardsticks in measuring
                                > > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                > > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                > > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                > > > stingy and self-serving.
                                > > >
                                > > > Harold goes on to say that
                                > > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                > > > on the path to God instead
                                > > > of being stepping stones."
                                > > > Apparently, being creative
                                > > > and spontaneous and
                                > > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                > > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                > > > permitted if it conflicts
                                > > > with the LEM's outer,
                                > > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                > > >
                                > > > The LEM states that, "We
                                > > > are here to learn." However,
                                > > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                > > > from others since he never
                                > > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                > > > and doesn't partake in
                                > > > two-way dialogues with
                                > > > those under his authority.
                                > > >
                                > > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                > > > and unloving as he continues
                                > > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                > > > believe that if they sit still
                                > > > and breathe only enough to
                                > > > sustain life that they may
                                > > > well dodge the lightning
                                > > > strikes of irksome change."
                                > > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                > > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                > > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                > > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                > > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                > > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                > > > that could have be averted
                                > > > if they had gotten proper
                                > > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                > > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                > > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                > > > are meaningless... unless
                                > > > you've given this Black
                                > > > Magician power over you!
                                > > >
                                > > > But, it seems that HK
                                > > > has something else stuck
                                > > > in his craw. It seems to
                                > > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                > > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                > > > still and Contemplating
                                > > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                > > > life. But why shouldn't
                                > > > they take it easy after
                                > > > 40 years of doing PR
                                > > > work for Eckankar!
                                > > >
                                > > > So, what does Klemp
                                > > > the All compassionate,
                                > > > loving, positive, and
                                > > > empathetic icon of EK
                                > > > conclude?
                                > > >
                                > > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                > > > refuses to adhere to
                                > > > the ECK Guidelines
                                > > > needs to be addressed
                                > > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                > > > I wonder what that
                                > > > really means? Well,
                                > > > unless you're already
                                > > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                > > > next initiation good-bye
                                > > > for like 10-20 years!
                                > > >
                                > > > Klemp continues to say,
                                > > > "These are big stakes!
                                > > > Continued refusal means
                                > > > it's time for a replacement
                                > > > to step in. A change is
                                > > > due. Change. isn't it
                                > > > funny how we have come
                                > > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                > > > really funny. Klemp
                                > > > abuses the concept
                                > > > of "change" and makes
                                > > > it into a misnomer.
                                > > >
                                > > > What "changes" are there
                                > > > in Eckankar? The same
                                > > > old things are merely
                                > > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                > > > off and made to seem
                                > > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                > > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                > > > a game of pretend by
                                > > > creating brightly colored
                                > > > straws to grab at and
                                > > > cling to when drowning.
                                > > >
                                > > > Too bad that EKists are
                                > > > so deluded and needy
                                > > > and aren't able to read
                                > > > between the lines and
                                > > > see the real truth behind
                                > > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                > > >
                                > > > Prometheus
                                >
                              • Non
                                Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few
                                Message 15 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                  Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                  http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                  Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                  In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                  I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                  Blessings

                                  Non ;)

                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >Hello Janice,
                                  Most H.I.s have no idea
                                  how the EK Initiation
                                  process works. It's sad
                                  because there are some
                                  really nice and gentile
                                  chelas who have been
                                  passed over on the 5th.
                                  Some died as 4ths when
                                  they should have had
                                  some happiness, peace
                                  of mind, and contentment
                                  by receiving that 5th.
                                  I've know several eckists
                                  where this has happened.
                                  It was no big deal to give
                                  them their 5th initiation,
                                  but some RESAs are mean-
                                  spirited, lack empathy,
                                  and are petty. They've
                                  gotten caught up in HK's
                                  game. All Eckists should
                                  get the 5th after no more
                                  than 20 years, especially,
                                  when they participate
                                  and are kept current on
                                  their membership. However,
                                  that's not the way the
                                  power trip is played by
                                  some RESAs.

                                  I hate to admit this but
                                  I helped the RESA when
                                  asked about people. I
                                  was quizzed about those
                                  up for, usually, the 5th
                                  and 6th initiation. I was
                                  asked about what the EKist
                                  said, how they acted and
                                  conducted themselves
                                  and any unusual things
                                  that I noticed about
                                  their behavior or performance.
                                  And then I was asked for
                                  my opinion. Unfortunately
                                  my replies, I know, had
                                  some initiations delayed
                                  for these people and I
                                  regret that I got caught
                                  up in this petty mind game.
                                  Some of these people are
                                  still H.I.s and have no idea
                                  why they had to wait so
                                  long for their 5th or 6th.
                                  Many probably think that
                                  the Mahanta was testing
                                  them! LOL! On the other
                                  hand maybe some of them,
                                  by now, have been asked
                                  to evaluate people too.
                                  I wonder if they put two
                                  and two together and
                                  figured it out, unless,
                                  they were told why like
                                  I had been told.

                                  Why, though, should
                                  Klemp have a system
                                  for initiations that judges
                                  and punishes Eckists
                                  based upon our evaluations?
                                  Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                  of the Mahanta?

                                  Besides, a 5th is no big
                                  deal, and it's not like one
                                  becomes a cleric automatically
                                  with a 5th. Really, being
                                  an 5th is no more being
                                  an official representative
                                  of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                  Yes, most Eckists have
                                  no idea that a computer
                                  generated eligibility list
                                  is sent to the RESA by the
                                  ESC and that phone calls
                                  are made asking questions
                                  where subjective answers
                                  are given and that the RESA
                                  uses these to either approve
                                  and give a recommendation
                                  for initiation or doesn't.
                                  However, I will say that
                                  any "No" has to have an
                                  valid reason. The ESC
                                  usually follows the RESAs'
                                  recommendations.

                                  BTW- Janice, I think that
                                  your RESA approved of
                                  your initiation because
                                  he felt guilty for having
                                  yelled at you, plus, you
                                  could have reported him
                                  to the ESC. Maybe the
                                  initiation approval was
                                  meant to appease you?

                                  Prometheus



                                  Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                  Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                  teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                  person?

                                  That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                  was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                  on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                  crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                  that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                  was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                  totally useless.

                                  In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                  about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                  I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                  of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                  didn't use his name at all.

                                  The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                  seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                  had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                  then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                  asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                  times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                  along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                  his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                  point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                  time and hung up.

                                  It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                  up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                  called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                  appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                  paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                  performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                  that was part of it.

                                  When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                  thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                  there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                  was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                  the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                  insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                  was enough.

                                  Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                  true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                  I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                  I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                  opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                  like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                  prometheus wrote:

                                  Hello Janice,
                                  Thanks for the interesting
                                  reply and the sharing of
                                  insights and experiences.
                                  I really really enjoyed it
                                  all.

                                  The reason why someone
                                  knew you received your
                                  pink slip is because the
                                  RESA gets an initiation
                                  eligibility list where he/
                                  she will mark yea/nay
                                  for an initiation. When
                                  the yea is checked the
                                  ESC (membership services)
                                  will more than likely issue
                                  the pink slip for the initiation.
                                  Or, the file has been red
                                  flagged for some reason.
                                  Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                  a temporary hold on higher
                                  initiations. Maybe it's due
                                  to pending requirements
                                  for training/retraining.
                                  The ESC will notify the
                                  RESA when the pink slip
                                  is sent.

                                  Most Eckists don't know
                                  how the initiation process
                                  works.

                                  The RESA has a membership
                                  list generated by the ESC
                                  for all those EKists in their
                                  region and it will show
                                  initiation level, one's status
                                  and date of membership
                                  among other info. If a
                                  new person sends in a
                                  membership form to the
                                  ESC from anywhere in
                                  the RESA's region the RESA
                                  will be notified of who
                                  they are and their mailing
                                  address.

                                  I was glad Ford Johnson
                                  wrote his book and that
                                  I was told about it by an
                                  Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                  The Irony is that he was
                                  doing Public Information
                                  and was quite the gossip.

                                  I always was the skeptic
                                  and had trouble with a lot
                                  of what I saw and experienced
                                  around H.I.s.

                                  When I was a lower initiate
                                  I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                  spiritual nor anywhere close
                                  to being enlightened. There
                                  were too many contradictions,
                                  restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                  Once you're an EK member
                                  the next step is to get you
                                  to become a volunteer on
                                  HK's sales team.

                                  I always wondered how
                                  was there an "inner" connection
                                  to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                  were still smoking and
                                  drinking alcohol, but
                                  getting promoted with
                                  more initiations? I knew
                                  of two 5ths who smoked
                                  and drank and got pink
                                  slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                  that Klemp knows nothing
                                  unless informed via phone
                                  or snailmail... email now!

                                  Yes, Janice, we were the
                                  ones awakened to the Truth
                                  while all of those "Higher"
                                  (pretend) Initiates are still
                                  sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                  become very skilled at
                                  regurgitating the PR and
                                  at facilitating and public
                                  speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                  no idea of what it's like
                                  to be Free thinkers and
                                  free of religion and of the
                                  EK Hierarchy. They think
                                  that their "spiritual experiences"
                                  are unique when these
                                  are common and similar
                                  experiences that all religious
                                  seekers have had... even
                                  Christians!

                                  Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                  in order to fill a void and
                                  to learn some important
                                  lessons about ourselves
                                  and about religion in general.

                                  IMO, Those who left
                                  Eckankar but still have
                                  a need for religion, haven't
                                  really learned that they
                                  will never find answers
                                  via a group consciousness
                                  or via a guru/master.
                                  True, it is nice to know
                                  people of like mind and
                                  to share things, but this
                                  can be a bad thing as well
                                  if we become too attached
                                  or lazy and want to play
                                  follow the leader again.

                                  It all comes down to one's
                                  private and personal experiences
                                  and inner revelations with
                                  oneSelf and with whatever
                                  catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                  Prometheus

                                  Janice wrote:
                                  I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                  it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                  people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                  The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                  new people.

                                  Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                  little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                  to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                  you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                  you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                  to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                  initiations.

                                  I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                  contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                  questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                  he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                  not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                  Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                  me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                  about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                  even.

                                  How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                  supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                  about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                  getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                  seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                  games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                  opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                  Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                  tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                  become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                  That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                  for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                  eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                  instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                  the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                  Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                  lucky that I got out when I did.

                                  The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                  lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                  they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                  in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                  good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                  that point the lies.

                                  Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                  like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                  not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                  define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                  individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                  responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                  after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                  I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                  individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                  the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                  in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                  this.

                                  I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                  maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                  spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                  all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                  the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                  own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                  quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                  I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                  mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                  there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                  Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                  they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                  spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                  slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                  getting out could lead to better things.

                                  Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                  reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                  your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                  to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                  serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                  the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                  are.

                                  Blessings to all of you.


                                  prometheus wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                  > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                  > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                  > and "explorer" positions at
                                  > the EK Centers would trip
                                  > over their egos and go on
                                  > power trips. Many seemed
                                  > cliquish and would huddle
                                  > together. Then, again, some
                                  > weren't all that friendly or
                                  > were very introverted and
                                  > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                  > including the clerics, to
                                  > greet and talk to all of the
                                  > new or seldom seen faces
                                  > that showed up. Many
                                  > only saw other Eckists at
                                  > the monthly EWS and this
                                  > was a time to catch up on
                                  > things. This is why I'd
                                  > suggest going to lunch
                                  > after the EWS and socializing.
                                  >
                                  > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                  > True? I think so!
                                  >
                                  > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                  > and requirements for Eckists
                                  > means that they must take
                                  > on extroverted roles in
                                  > order to become H.I.s.
                                  > Eckists must force themselves,
                                  > against their innate natures,
                                  > to become extroverted and
                                  > egocentric. These leadership
                                  > requirements create conflict,
                                  > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                  > Thus, this imbalance that
                                  > Klemp has created and
                                  > reenforces aids him in
                                  > the brainwashing of his
                                  > flock to have programmed
                                  > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                  > mystical experiences. But,
                                  > this has its toll and is why
                                  > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                  > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                  > and his anal control tactics.
                                  >
                                  > Sometimes, at special
                                  > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                  > and mini retreats the
                                  > long-time H.I.s, former
                                  > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                  > members would gather
                                  > around and gossip about
                                  > those absent or present.
                                  > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                  > gossip but rationalized
                                  > as more of an evaluative/
                                  > investigative discussion
                                  > for possible initiation
                                  > recommendation or for
                                  > a Satsang position appointment.
                                  > They wanted to know,
                                  > from sources who knew
                                  > them, if there were problems
                                  > with these EKists and, if
                                  > so, what the specific details
                                  > were. It was all ego driven
                                  > and subjective because we
                                  > were all volunteers and
                                  > had family and personal
                                  > lives too. But, it did weed
                                  > out those who weren't as
                                  > well indoctrinated....
                                  > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                  > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                  > much always a waste of
                                  > time so, in the long run,
                                  > enthusiasm was probably
                                  > more important than acting
                                  > the part. The Satsang positions
                                  > and duties kept people
                                  > busy, gave them a purpose
                                  > and made them feel good,
                                  > although, very stressed out.
                                  >
                                  > The Initiation game has made
                                  > Eckists struggle with denying
                                  > how much more they want of
                                  > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                  >
                                  > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                  > that an ESA told you that the
                                  > people at the EK Center were
                                  > crazy. That just isn't done
                                  > and is part of HK's agenda
                                  > of Silence and retraining.
                                  >
                                  > There's that old Buddha quote
                                  > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                  > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                  > and this is supposed to keep
                                  > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                  > sometimes get reported:
                                  > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                  > this I ask myself before I
                                  > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                  > following this criteria is very
                                  > subjective and could or would
                                  > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                  > conservations.
                                  >
                                  > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                  > may be "true" for you and
                                  > for most people but not
                                  > not for all people. And, is
                                  > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                  > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                  > this within earshot of people
                                  > who aren't feeling well or
                                  > who can't enjoy the day?
                                  > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                  > to keep the critics of his
                                  > policies and of his H.I.s
                                  > to a minimum.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                  > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                  > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                  > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                  > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned
                                  off
                                  > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my
                                  job
                                  > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's
                                  been
                                  > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                  > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                  > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                  >
                                  > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                  > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                  >
                                  > Good to be away from it.
                                  >
                                  > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from
                                  the
                                  > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                  > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because
                                  certainly
                                  > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                  > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                  > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                  > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                  > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                  > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                  > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                  > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                  > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any
                                  of
                                  > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                  > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                  > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony.
                                  I
                                  > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me
                                  in
                                  > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                  > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                  > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                  > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                  > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                  > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was
                                  asked
                                  > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                  > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                  > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                  > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                  > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                  > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                  >
                                  > Russ wrote:
                                  > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                  > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set
                                  him
                                  > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                  > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                  >
                                  > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense
                                  of
                                  > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                  > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among
                                  other
                                  > things.
                                  >
                                  > Russ
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                  > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                  > that Klemp has enough of
                                  > a problem that he used it
                                  > in the ASK The MASTER
                                  > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                  > And, it was the only question!
                                  > They had, supposedly, an
                                  > H.I. write-in and point out
                                  > the problem. No name given.
                                  >
                                  > I remember when I had
                                  > to deal with some older
                                  > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                  > coordinator and director
                                  > positions and it was
                                  > impossible to get this
                                  > one to follow the Guidelines
                                  > on EK Worship Services
                                  > (EWS). Many long-time
                                  > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                  > Guidelines and my
                                  > RESA turned a blind-
                                  > eye to it all. We had
                                  > so many former RESAs
                                  > in volunteer positions
                                  > that it was impossible
                                  > to get them on the
                                  > same page and to follow
                                  > procedures. I think
                                  > that some were just
                                  > burned out and tired
                                  > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                  > didn't want to leave.
                                  > Maybe they had too
                                  > many friendships to
                                  > lose. Plus, let's face
                                  > it. A lot of these people
                                  > are losers in the real
                                  > world but are big shots
                                  > in Eckankar. Those
                                  > Higher Initiations are
                                  > a big deal to the ego!
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                  > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones.
                                  I
                                  > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing
                                  to
                                  > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become
                                  brittle
                                  > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity
                                  and
                                  > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                  >
                                  > Non ;)
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello All,
                                  > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                  > > Letter I've read that
                                  > > Klemp still needs to
                                  > > update his Guidelines
                                  > > for the H.I.s in the
                                  > > field and chastise
                                  > > those who are slow
                                  > > to get with the program.
                                  > >
                                  > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                  > > want the freedom
                                  > > of Soul to be more
                                  > > individualistic,
                                  > > spontaneous, and
                                  > > creative by thinking
                                  > > they (Soul) can operate
                                  > > outside-of-the-box,
                                  > > thus, being channels
                                  > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                  > > has previously stated
                                  > > that he's imperfect,
                                  > > but that's not the case
                                  > > with the ECK, correct?
                                  > >
                                  > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                  > > their current (Present)
                                  > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                  > > followed versus that
                                  > > of outer set-in-stone
                                  > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                  > > in the Past and approved
                                  > > by a committee of imperfect
                                  > > people on a plane ruled
                                  > > by the KAL?
                                  > >
                                  > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                  > > that freedom of expression
                                  > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                  > > version of ECKankar.
                                  > > It's a hierarchy where
                                  > > everything is spelled
                                  > > out and controlled
                                  > > by him and his secret
                                  > > RESA police, plus, all
                                  > > field work must be
                                  > > approved via the
                                  > > current Guidelines.
                                  > >
                                  > > Many inexperienced
                                  > > EKists like the idea of
                                  > > being told how to do
                                  > > this or that and what
                                  > > approved books to use
                                  > > and what to say and
                                  > > other details to make
                                  > > the promotion of
                                  > > Eckankar easier.
                                  > >
                                  > > But the real point the
                                  > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                  > > is to have EK PR more
                                  > > consistent and cookie
                                  > > cutter looking/sounding
                                  > > for the public.
                                  > >
                                  > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                  > > are like following a
                                  > > recipe set-in-stone
                                  > > that disregards individual
                                  > > or regional tastes and
                                  > > disallows any additions
                                  > > or omissions of other
                                  > > ingredients, methods,
                                  > > and/or spices.
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                  > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                  > > change. He says they "rock
                                  > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                  > > that "it's all about fear."
                                  > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                  > > and "reinforce in each other
                                  > > a group's opposition to
                                  > > anything new." Strange
                                  > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                  > > subject to fear since he's
                                  > > supposed to protect them!
                                  > > This is how the KAL works.
                                  > > Klemp is his agent.
                                  > >
                                  > > However, the real 'change'
                                  > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                  > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                  > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                  > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                  > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                  > > being bound to dogma.
                                  > > HK side-steps delivering
                                  > > on his promises of protection
                                  > > and never has anything
                                  > > profound to share. And,
                                  > > where are those Higher
                                  > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                  > > yardsticks in measuring
                                  > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                  > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                  > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                  > > stingy and self-serving.
                                  > >
                                  > > Harold goes on to say that
                                  > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                  > > on the path to God instead
                                  > > of being stepping stones."
                                  > > Apparently, being creative
                                  > > and spontaneous and
                                  > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                  > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                  > > permitted if it conflicts
                                  > > with the LEM's outer,
                                  > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                  > >
                                  > > The LEM states that, "We
                                  > > are here to learn." However,
                                  > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                  > > from others since he never
                                  > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                  > > and doesn't partake in
                                  > > two-way dialogues with
                                  > > those under his authority.
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                  > > and unloving as he continues
                                  > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                  > > believe that if they sit still
                                  > > and breathe only enough to
                                  > > sustain life that they may
                                  > > well dodge the lightning
                                  > > strikes of irksome change."
                                  > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                  > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                  > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                  > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                  > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                  > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                  > > that could have be averted
                                  > > if they had gotten proper
                                  > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                  > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                  > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                  > > are meaningless... unless
                                  > > you've given this Black
                                  > > Magician power over you!
                                  > >
                                  > > But, it seems that HK
                                  > > has something else stuck
                                  > > in his craw. It seems to
                                  > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                  > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                  > > still and Contemplating
                                  > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                  > > life. But why shouldn't
                                  > > they take it easy after
                                  > > 40 years of doing PR
                                  > > work for Eckankar!
                                  > >
                                  > > So, what does Klemp
                                  > > the All compassionate,
                                  > > loving, positive, and
                                  > > empathetic icon of EK
                                  > > conclude?
                                  > >
                                  > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                  > > refuses to adhere to
                                  > > the ECK Guidelines
                                  > > needs to be addressed
                                  > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                  > > I wonder what that
                                  > > really means? Well,
                                  > > unless you're already
                                  > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                  > > next initiation good-bye
                                  > > for like 10-20 years!
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp continues to say,
                                  > > "These are big stakes!
                                  > > Continued refusal means
                                  > > it's time for a replacement
                                  > > to step in. A change is
                                  > > due. Change. isn't it
                                  > > funny how we have come
                                  > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                  > > really funny. Klemp
                                  > > abuses the concept
                                  > > of "change" and makes
                                  > > it into a misnomer.
                                  > >
                                  > > What "changes" are there
                                  > > in Eckankar? The same
                                  > > old things are merely
                                  > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                  > > off and made to seem
                                  > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                  > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                  > > a game of pretend by
                                  > > creating brightly colored
                                  > > straws to grab at and
                                  > > cling to when drowning.
                                  > >
                                  > > Too bad that EKists are
                                  > > so deluded and needy
                                  > > and aren't able to read
                                  > > between the lines and
                                  > > see the real truth behind
                                  > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                • Janice Pfeiffer
                                  I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things.  I should have told you that in response when you told me what
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
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                                    I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things.  I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations.  I did admire you for it also.  I apologize for not telling you then.
                                     
                                    At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time.  There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others. 
                                     
                                    Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join.  I did go in of my own free will like everybody else.  I opened myself up to it, like everybody else.  So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts.  We chose to join eckankar.
                                     
                                    Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it.  You were one of those. 
                                     
                                    Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people?    Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others. 
                                     
                                    I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get.  Do you think those who passed on, do?  It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.
                                     
                                    By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart. 
                                     
                                    Be at peace 
                                     
                                    Janice
                                     
                                     
                                     


                                    --- On Sun, 12/16/12, Non <eckchains@...> wrote:

                                    From: Non <eckchains@...>
                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Sunday, December 16, 2012, 6:02 AM

                                     
                                    Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                    Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                    http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                    Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                    In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                    I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                    Blessings

                                    Non ;)

                                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >Hello Janice,
                                    Most H.I.s have no idea
                                    how the EK Initiation
                                    process works. It's sad
                                    because there are some
                                    really nice and gentile
                                    chelas who have been
                                    passed over on the 5th.
                                    Some died as 4ths when
                                    they should have had
                                    some happiness, peace
                                    of mind, and contentment
                                    by receiving that 5th.
                                    I've know several eckists
                                    where this has happened.
                                    It was no big deal to give
                                    them their 5th initiation,
                                    but some RESAs are mean-
                                    spirited, lack empathy,
                                    and are petty. They've
                                    gotten caught up in HK's
                                    game. All Eckists should
                                    get the 5th after no more
                                    than 20 years, especially,
                                    when they participate
                                    and are kept current on
                                    their membership. However,
                                    that's not the way the
                                    power trip is played by
                                    some RESAs.

                                    I hate to admit this but
                                    I helped the RESA when
                                    asked about people. I
                                    was quizzed about those
                                    up for, usually, the 5th
                                    and 6th initiation. I was
                                    asked about what the EKist
                                    said, how they acted and
                                    conducted themselves
                                    and any unusual things
                                    that I noticed about
                                    their behavior or performance.
                                    And then I was asked for
                                    my opinion. Unfortunately
                                    my replies, I know, had
                                    some initiations delayed
                                    for these people and I
                                    regret that I got caught
                                    up in this petty mind game.
                                    Some of these people are
                                    still H.I.s and have no idea
                                    why they had to wait so
                                    long for their 5th or 6th.
                                    Many probably think that
                                    the Mahanta was testing
                                    them! LOL! On the other
                                    hand maybe some of them,
                                    by now, have been asked
                                    to evaluate people too.
                                    I wonder if they put two
                                    and two together and
                                    figured it out, unless,
                                    they were told why like
                                    I had been told.

                                    Why, though, should
                                    Klemp have a system
                                    for initiations that judges
                                    and punishes Eckists
                                    based upon our evaluations?
                                    Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                    of the Mahanta?

                                    Besides, a 5th is no big
                                    deal, and it's not like one
                                    becomes a cleric automatically
                                    with a 5th. Really, being
                                    an 5th is no more being
                                    an official representative
                                    of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                    Yes, most Eckists have
                                    no idea that a computer
                                    generated eligibility list
                                    is sent to the RESA by the
                                    ESC and that phone calls
                                    are made asking questions
                                    where subjective answers
                                    are given and that the RESA
                                    uses these to either approve
                                    and give a recommendation
                                    for initiation or doesn't.
                                    However, I will say that
                                    any "No" has to have an
                                    valid reason. The ESC
                                    usually follows the RESAs'
                                    recommendations.

                                    BTW- Janice, I think that
                                    your RESA approved of
                                    your initiation because
                                    he felt guilty for having
                                    yelled at you, plus, you
                                    could have reported him
                                    to the ESC. Maybe the
                                    initiation approval was
                                    meant to appease you?

                                    Prometheus

                                    Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                    Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                    teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                    person?

                                    That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                    was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                    on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                    crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                    that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                    was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                    totally useless.

                                    In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                    about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                    I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                    of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                    didn't use his name at all.

                                    The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                    seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                    had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                    then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                    asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                    times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                    along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                    his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                    point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                    time and hung up.

                                    It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                    up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                    called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                    appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                    paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                    performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                    that was part of it.

                                    When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                    thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                    there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                    was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                    the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                    insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                    was enough.

                                    Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                    true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                    I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                    I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                    opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                    like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                    prometheus wrote:

                                    Hello Janice,
                                    Thanks for the interesting
                                    reply and the sharing of
                                    insights and experiences.
                                    I really really enjoyed it
                                    all.

                                    The reason why someone
                                    knew you received your
                                    pink slip is because the
                                    RESA gets an initiation
                                    eligibility list where he/
                                    she will mark yea/nay
                                    for an initiation. When
                                    the yea is checked the
                                    ESC (membership services)
                                    will more than likely issue
                                    the pink slip for the initiation.
                                    Or, the file has been red
                                    flagged for some reason.
                                    Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                    a temporary hold on higher
                                    initiations. Maybe it's due
                                    to pending requirements
                                    for training/retraining.
                                    The ESC will notify the
                                    RESA when the pink slip
                                    is sent.

                                    Most Eckists don't know
                                    how the initiation process
                                    works.

                                    The RESA has a membership
                                    list generated by the ESC
                                    for all those EKists in their
                                    region and it will show
                                    initiation level, one's status
                                    and date of membership
                                    among other info. If a
                                    new person sends in a
                                    membership form to the
                                    ESC from anywhere in
                                    the RESA's region the RESA
                                    will be notified of who
                                    they are and their mailing
                                    address.

                                    I was glad Ford Johnson
                                    wrote his book and that
                                    I was told about it by an
                                    Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                    The Irony is that he was
                                    doing Public Information
                                    and was quite the gossip.

                                    I always was the skeptic
                                    and had trouble with a lot
                                    of what I saw and experienced
                                    around H.I.s.

                                    When I was a lower initiate
                                    I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                    spiritual nor anywhere close
                                    to being enlightened. There
                                    were too many contradictions,
                                    restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                    Once you're an EK member
                                    the next step is to get you
                                    to become a volunteer on
                                    HK's sales team.

                                    I always wondered how
                                    was there an "inner" connection
                                    to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                    were still smoking and
                                    drinking alcohol, but
                                    getting promoted with
                                    more initiations? I knew
                                    of two 5ths who smoked
                                    and drank and got pink
                                    slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                    that Klemp knows nothing
                                    unless informed via phone
                                    or snailmail... email now!

                                    Yes, Janice, we were the
                                    ones awakened to the Truth
                                    while all of those "Higher"
                                    (pretend) Initiates are still
                                    sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                    become very skilled at
                                    regurgitating the PR and
                                    at facilitating and public
                                    speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                    no idea of what it's like
                                    to be Free thinkers and
                                    free of religion and of the
                                    EK Hierarchy. They think
                                    that their "spiritual experiences"
                                    are unique when these
                                    are common and similar
                                    experiences that all religious
                                    seekers have had... even
                                    Christians!

                                    Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                    in order to fill a void and
                                    to learn some important
                                    lessons about ourselves
                                    and about religion in general.

                                    IMO, Those who left
                                    Eckankar but still have
                                    a need for religion, haven't
                                    really learned that they
                                    will never find answers
                                    via a group consciousness
                                    or via a guru/master.
                                    True, it is nice to know
                                    people of like mind and
                                    to share things, but this
                                    can be a bad thing as well
                                    if we become too attached
                                    or lazy and want to play
                                    follow the leader again.

                                    It all comes down to one's
                                    private and personal experiences
                                    and inner revelations with
                                    oneSelf and with whatever
                                    catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                    Prometheus

                                    Janice wrote:
                                    I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                    it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                    people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                    The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                    new people.

                                    Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                    little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                    to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                    you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                    you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                    to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                    initiations.

                                    I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                    contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                    questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                    he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                    not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                    Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                    me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                    about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                    even.

                                    How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                    supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                    about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                    getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                    seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                    games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                    opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                    Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                    tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                    become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                    That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                    for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                    eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                    instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                    the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                    Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                    lucky that I got out when I did.

                                    The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                    lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                    they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                    in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                    good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                    that point the lies.

                                    Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                    like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                    not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                    define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                    individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                    responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                    after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                    I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                    individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                    the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                    in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                    this.

                                    I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                    maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                    spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                    all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                    the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                    own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                    quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                    I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                    mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                    there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                    Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                    they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                    spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                    slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                    getting out could lead to better things.

                                    Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                    reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                    your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                    to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                    serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                    the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                    are.

                                    Blessings to all of you.

                                    prometheus wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                    > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                    > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                    > and "explorer" positions at
                                    > the EK Centers would trip
                                    > over their egos and go on
                                    > power trips. Many seemed
                                    > cliquish and would huddle
                                    > together. Then, again, some
                                    > weren't all that friendly or
                                    > were very introverted and
                                    > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                    > including the clerics, to
                                    > greet and talk to all of the
                                    > new or seldom seen faces
                                    > that showed up. Many
                                    > only saw other Eckists at
                                    > the monthly EWS and this
                                    > was a time to catch up on
                                    > things. This is why I'd
                                    > suggest going to lunch
                                    > after the EWS and socializing.
                                    >
                                    > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                    > True? I think so!
                                    >
                                    > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                    > and requirements for Eckists
                                    > means that they must take
                                    > on extroverted roles in
                                    > order to become H.I.s.
                                    > Eckists must force themselves,
                                    > against their innate natures,
                                    > to become extroverted and
                                    > egocentric. These leadership
                                    > requirements create conflict,
                                    > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                    > Thus, this imbalance that
                                    > Klemp has created and
                                    > reenforces aids him in
                                    > the brainwashing of his
                                    > flock to have programmed
                                    > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                    > mystical experiences. But,
                                    > this has its toll and is why
                                    > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                    > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                    > and his anal control tactics.
                                    >
                                    > Sometimes, at special
                                    > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                    > and mini retreats the
                                    > long-time H.I.s, former
                                    > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                    > members would gather
                                    > around and gossip about
                                    > those absent or present.
                                    > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                    > gossip but rationalized
                                    > as more of an evaluative/
                                    > investigative discussion
                                    > for possible initiation
                                    > recommendation or for
                                    > a Satsang position appointment.
                                    > They wanted to know,
                                    > from sources who knew
                                    > them, if there were problems
                                    > with these EKists and, if
                                    > so, what the specific details
                                    > were. It was all ego driven
                                    > and subjective because we
                                    > were all volunteers and
                                    > had family and personal
                                    > lives too. But, it did weed
                                    > out those who weren't as
                                    > well indoctrinated....
                                    > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                    > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                    > much always a waste of
                                    > time so, in the long run,
                                    > enthusiasm was probably
                                    > more important than acting
                                    > the part. The Satsang positions
                                    > and duties kept people
                                    > busy, gave them a purpose
                                    > and made them feel good,
                                    > although, very stressed out.
                                    >
                                    > The Initiation game has made
                                    > Eckists struggle with denying
                                    > how much more they want of
                                    > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                    >
                                    > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                    > that an ESA told you that the
                                    > people at the EK Center were
                                    > crazy. That just isn't done
                                    > and is part of HK's agenda
                                    > of Silence and retraining.
                                    >
                                    > There's that old Buddha quote
                                    > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                    > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                    > and this is supposed to keep
                                    > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                    > sometimes get reported:
                                    > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                    > this I ask myself before I
                                    > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                    > following this criteria is very
                                    > subjective and could or would
                                    > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                    > conservations.
                                    >
                                    > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                    > may be "true" for you and
                                    > for most people but not
                                    > not for all people. And, is
                                    > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                    > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                    > this within earshot of people
                                    > who aren't feeling well or
                                    > who can't enjoy the day?
                                    > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                    > to keep the critics of his
                                    > policies and of his H.I.s
                                    > to a minimum.
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                    > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                    > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                    > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                    > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned
                                    off
                                    > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my
                                    job
                                    > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's
                                    been
                                    > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                    > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                    > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                    >
                                    > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                    > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                    >
                                    > Good to be away from it.
                                    >
                                    > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from
                                    the
                                    > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                    > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because
                                    certainly
                                    > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                    > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                    > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                    > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                    > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                    > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                    > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                    > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                    > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any
                                    of
                                    > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                    > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                    > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony.
                                    I
                                    > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me
                                    in
                                    > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                    > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                    > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                    > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                    > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                    > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was
                                    asked
                                    > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                    > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                    > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                    > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                    > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                    > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                    >
                                    > Russ wrote:
                                    > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                    > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set
                                    him
                                    > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                    > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                    >
                                    > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense
                                    of
                                    > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                    > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among
                                    other
                                    > things.
                                    >
                                    > Russ
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > prometheus wrote:
                                    > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                    > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                    > that Klemp has enough of
                                    > a problem that he used it
                                    > in the ASK The MASTER
                                    > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                    > And, it was the only question!
                                    > They had, supposedly, an
                                    > H.I. write-in and point out
                                    > the problem. No name given.
                                    >
                                    > I remember when I had
                                    > to deal with some older
                                    > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                    > coordinator and director
                                    > positions and it was
                                    > impossible to get this
                                    > one to follow the Guidelines
                                    > on EK Worship Services
                                    > (EWS). Many long-time
                                    > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                    > Guidelines and my
                                    > RESA turned a blind-
                                    > eye to it all. We had
                                    > so many former RESAs
                                    > in volunteer positions
                                    > that it was impossible
                                    > to get them on the
                                    > same page and to follow
                                    > procedures. I think
                                    > that some were just
                                    > burned out and tired
                                    > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                    > didn't want to leave.
                                    > Maybe they had too
                                    > many friendships to
                                    > lose. Plus, let's face
                                    > it. A lot of these people
                                    > are losers in the real
                                    > world but are big shots
                                    > in Eckankar. Those
                                    > Higher Initiations are
                                    > a big deal to the ego!
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                    > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones.
                                    I
                                    > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing
                                    to
                                    > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become
                                    brittle
                                    > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity
                                    and
                                    > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                    >
                                    > Non ;)
                                    >
                                    > prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello All,
                                    > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                    > > Letter I've read that
                                    > > Klemp still needs to
                                    > > update his Guidelines
                                    > > for the H.I.s in the
                                    > > field and chastise
                                    > > those who are slow
                                    > > to get with the program.
                                    > >
                                    > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                    > > want the freedom
                                    > > of Soul to be more
                                    > > individualistic,
                                    > > spontaneous, and
                                    > > creative by thinking
                                    > > they (Soul) can operate
                                    > > outside-of-the-box,
                                    > > thus, being channels
                                    > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                    > > has previously stated
                                    > > that he's imperfect,
                                    > > but that's not the case
                                    > > with the ECK, correct?
                                    > >
                                    > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                    > > their current (Present)
                                    > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                    > > followed versus that
                                    > > of outer set-in-stone
                                    > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                    > > in the Past and approved
                                    > > by a committee of imperfect
                                    > > people on a plane ruled
                                    > > by the KAL?
                                    > >
                                    > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                    > > that freedom of expression
                                    > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                    > > version of ECKankar.
                                    > > It's a hierarchy where
                                    > > everything is spelled
                                    > > out and controlled
                                    > > by him and his secret
                                    > > RESA police, plus, all
                                    > > field work must be
                                    > > approved via the
                                    > > current Guidelines.
                                    > >
                                    > > Many inexperienced
                                    > > EKists like the idea of
                                    > > being told how to do
                                    > > this or that and what
                                    > > approved books to use
                                    > > and what to say and
                                    > > other details to make
                                    > > the promotion of
                                    > > Eckankar easier.
                                    > >
                                    > > But the real point the
                                    > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                    > > is to have EK PR more
                                    > > consistent and cookie
                                    > > cutter looking/sounding
                                    > > for the public.
                                    > >
                                    > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                    > > are like following a
                                    > > recipe set-in-stone
                                    > > that disregards individual
                                    > > or regional tastes and
                                    > > disallows any additions
                                    > > or omissions of other
                                    > > ingredients, methods,
                                    > > and/or spices.
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                    > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                    > > change. He says they "rock
                                    > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                    > > that "it's all about fear."
                                    > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                    > > and "reinforce in each other
                                    > > a group's opposition to
                                    > > anything new." Strange
                                    > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                    > > subject to fear since he's
                                    > > supposed to protect them!
                                    > > This is how the KAL works.
                                    > > Klemp is his agent.
                                    > >
                                    > > However, the real 'change'
                                    > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                    > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                    > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                    > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                    > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                    > > being bound to dogma.
                                    > > HK side-steps delivering
                                    > > on his promises of protection
                                    > > and never has anything
                                    > > profound to share. And,
                                    > > where are those Higher
                                    > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                    > > yardsticks in measuring
                                    > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                    > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                    > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                    > > stingy and self-serving.
                                    > >
                                    > > Harold goes on to say that
                                    > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                    > > on the path to God instead
                                    > > of being stepping stones."
                                    > > Apparently, being creative
                                    > > and spontaneous and
                                    > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                    > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                    > > permitted if it conflicts
                                    > > with the LEM's outer,
                                    > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                    > >
                                    > > The LEM states that, "We
                                    > > are here to learn." However,
                                    > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                    > > from others since he never
                                    > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                    > > and doesn't partake in
                                    > > two-way dialogues with
                                    > > those under his authority.
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                    > > and unloving as he continues
                                    > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                    > > believe that if they sit still
                                    > > and breathe only enough to
                                    > > sustain life that they may
                                    > > well dodge the lightning
                                    > > strikes of irksome change."
                                    > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                    > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                    > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                    > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                    > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                    > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                    > > that could have be averted
                                    > > if they had gotten proper
                                    > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                    > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                    > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                    > > are meaningless... unless
                                    > > you've given this Black
                                    > > Magician power over you!
                                    > >
                                    > > But, it seems that HK
                                    > > has something else stuck
                                    > > in his craw. It seems to
                                    > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                    > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                    > > still and Contemplating
                                    > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                    > > life. But why shouldn't
                                    > > they take it easy after
                                    > > 40 years of doing PR
                                    > > work for Eckankar!
                                    > >
                                    > > So, what does Klemp
                                    > > the All compassionate,
                                    > > loving, positive, and
                                    > > empathetic icon of EK
                                    > > conclude?
                                    > >
                                    > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                    > > refuses to adhere to
                                    > > the ECK Guidelines
                                    > > needs to be addressed
                                    > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                    > > I wonder what that
                                    > > really means? Well,
                                    > > unless you're already
                                    > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                    > > next initiation good-bye
                                    > > for like 10-20 years!
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp continues to say,
                                    > > "These are big stakes!
                                    > > Continued refusal means
                                    > > it's time for a replacement
                                    > > to step in. A change is
                                    > > due. Change. isn't it
                                    > > funny how we have come
                                    > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                    > > really funny. Klemp
                                    > > abuses the concept
                                    > > of "change" and makes
                                    > > it into a misnomer.
                                    > >
                                    > > What "changes" are there
                                    > > in Eckankar? The same
                                    > > old things are merely
                                    > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                    > > off and made to seem
                                    > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                    > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                    > > a game of pretend by
                                    > > creating brightly colored
                                    > > straws to grab at and
                                    > > cling to when drowning.
                                    > >
                                    > > Too bad that EKists are
                                    > > so deluded and needy
                                    > > and aren't able to read
                                    > > between the lines and
                                    > > see the real truth behind
                                    > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus

                                  • Janice Pfeiffer
                                    Hi Russ,   I am sorry if my talk about initiations disturbed you in any way.  It is a disturbing thing to come to grips with since you are told right from
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Hi Russ,
                                       
                                      I am sorry if my talk about initiations disturbed you in any way.  It is a disturbing thing to come to grips with since you are told right from the start that those sacred initiations come from the mahanta. 
                                       
                                      I hope all goes well with you as you take the final stages of leaving eckankar.  I hope you will find comfort in knowing that you can stand on your own and any growth you had while in, you still have.  All along you were doing it for yourself, and you still can.
                                       
                                      I know you have the strength and courage to do anything you feel you have to do.  I hope you know that this site is a great place to get support should you needed. 
                                       
                                      Please know I will be thinking of you in the coming weeks and I will be sending warm thoughts your way.
                                       
                                      Keep your chin up and please know you are a very good person person.
                                       
                                      Janice

                                      --- On Sat, 12/15/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                                      From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                      To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 3:35 PM

                                       
                                      Janice,

                                      I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member. 

                                      I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'. 

                                      That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                                      On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                                      I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know. 

                                      Later,
                                      Russ


                                      From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:37 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                                       
                                      Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                                       
                                      Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                                       
                                      That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                                       
                                      In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                                       
                                       I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                                       
                                      The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                                       
                                      It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                                       
                                      When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                                       
                                      Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                                       
                                      I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                                      --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                                       
                                      Hello Janice,
                                      Thanks for the interesting
                                      reply and the sharing of
                                      insights and experiences.
                                      I really really enjoyed it
                                      all.

                                      The reason why someone
                                      knew you received your
                                      pink slip is because the
                                      RESA gets an initiation
                                      eligibility list where he/
                                      she will mark yea/nay
                                      for an initiation. When
                                      the yea is checked the
                                      ESC (membership services)
                                      will more than likely issue
                                      the pink slip for the initiation.
                                      Or, the file has been red
                                      flagged for some reason.
                                      Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                      a temporary hold on higher
                                      initiations. Maybe it's due
                                      to pending requirements
                                      for training/retraining.
                                      The ESC will notify the
                                      RESA when the pink slip
                                      is sent.

                                      Most Eckists don't know
                                      how the initiation process
                                      works.

                                      The RESA has a membership
                                      list generated by the ESC
                                      for all those EKists in their
                                      region and it will show
                                      initiation level, one's status
                                      and date of membership
                                      among other info. If a
                                      new person sends in a
                                      membership form to the
                                      ESC from anywhere in
                                      the RESA's region the RESA
                                      will be notified of who
                                      they are and their mailing
                                      address.

                                      I was glad Ford Johnson
                                      wrote his book and that
                                      I was told about it by an
                                      Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                      The Irony is that he was
                                      doing Public Information
                                      and was quite the gossip.

                                      I always was the skeptic
                                      and had trouble with a lot
                                      of what I saw and experienced
                                      around H.I.s.

                                      When I was a lower initiate
                                      I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                      spiritual nor anywhere close
                                      to being enlightened. There
                                      were too many contradictions,
                                      restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                      Once you're an EK member
                                      the next step is to get you
                                      to become a volunteer on
                                      HK's sales team.

                                      I always wondered how
                                      was there an "inner" connection
                                      to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                      were still smoking and
                                      drinking alcohol, but
                                      getting promoted with
                                      more initiations? I knew
                                      of two 5ths who smoked
                                      and drank and got pink
                                      slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                      that Klemp knows nothing
                                      unless informed via phone
                                      or snailmail... email now!

                                      Yes, Janice, we were the
                                      ones awakened to the Truth
                                      while all of those "Higher"
                                      (pretend) Initiates are still
                                      sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                      become very skilled at
                                      regurgitating the PR and
                                      at facilitating and public
                                      speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                      no idea of what it's like
                                      to be Free thinkers and
                                      free of religion and of the
                                      EK Hierarchy. They think
                                      that their "spiritual experiences"
                                      are unique when these
                                      are common and similar
                                      experiences that all religious
                                      seekers have had... even
                                      Christians!

                                      Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                      in order to fill a void and
                                      to learn some important
                                      lessons about ourselves
                                      and about religion in general.

                                      IMO, Those who left
                                      Eckankar but still have
                                      a need for religion, haven't
                                      really learned that they
                                      will never find answers
                                      via a group consciousness
                                      or via a guru/master.
                                      True, it is nice to know
                                      people of like mind and
                                      to share things, but this
                                      can be a bad thing as well
                                      if we become too attached
                                      or lazy and want to play
                                      follow the leader again.

                                      It all comes down to one's
                                      private and personal experiences
                                      and inner revelations with
                                      oneSelf and with whatever
                                      catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                      Prometheus

                                      Janice wrote:
                                      I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                      Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                      I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                      Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                      How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                      That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                      The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                      Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                      I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                      I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                      I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                      Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                      Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                      Blessings to all of you.


                                      prometheus wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                      > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                      > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                      > and "explorer" positions at
                                      > the EK Centers would trip
                                      > over their egos and go on
                                      > power trips. Many seemed
                                      > cliquish and would huddle
                                      > together. Then, again, some
                                      > weren't all that friendly or
                                      > were very introverted and
                                      > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                      > including the clerics, to
                                      > greet and talk to all of the
                                      > new or seldom seen faces
                                      > that showed up. Many
                                      > only saw other Eckists at
                                      > the monthly EWS and this
                                      > was a time to catch up on
                                      > things. This is why I'd
                                      > suggest going to lunch
                                      > after the EWS and socializing.
                                      >
                                      > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                      > True? I think so!
                                      >
                                      > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                      > and requirements for Eckists
                                      > means that they must take
                                      > on extroverted roles in
                                      > order to become H.I.s.
                                      > Eckists must force themselves,
                                      > against their innate natures,
                                      > to become extroverted and
                                      > egocentric. These leadership
                                      > requirements create conflict,
                                      > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                      > Thus, this imbalance that
                                      > Klemp has created and
                                      > reenforces aids him in
                                      > the brainwashing of his
                                      > flock to have programmed
                                      > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                      > mystical experiences. But,
                                      > this has its toll and is why
                                      > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                      > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                      > and his anal control tactics.
                                      >
                                      > Sometimes, at special
                                      > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                      > and mini retreats the
                                      > long-time H.I.s, former
                                      > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                      > members would gather
                                      > around and gossip about
                                      > those absent or present.
                                      > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                      > gossip but rationalized
                                      > as more of an evaluative/
                                      > investigative discussion
                                      > for possible initiation
                                      > recommendation or for
                                      > a Satsang position appointment.
                                      > They wanted to know,
                                      > from sources who knew
                                      > them, if there were problems
                                      > with these EKists and, if
                                      > so, what the specific details
                                      > were. It was all ego driven
                                      > and subjective because we
                                      > were all volunteers and
                                      > had family and personal
                                      > lives too. But, it did weed
                                      > out those who weren't as
                                      > well indoctrinated....
                                      > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                      > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                      > much always a waste of
                                      > time so, in the long run,
                                      > enthusiasm was probably
                                      > more important than acting
                                      > the part. The Satsang positions
                                      > and duties kept people
                                      > busy, gave them a purpose
                                      > and made them feel good,
                                      > although, very stressed out.
                                      >
                                      > The Initiation game has made
                                      > Eckists struggle with denying
                                      > how much more they want of
                                      > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                      >
                                      > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                      > that an ESA told you that the
                                      > people at the EK Center were
                                      > crazy. That just isn't done
                                      > and is part of HK's agenda
                                      > of Silence and retraining.
                                      >
                                      > There's that old Buddha quote
                                      > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                      > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                      > and this is supposed to keep
                                      > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                      > sometimes get reported:
                                      > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                      > this I ask myself before I
                                      > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                      > following this criteria is very
                                      > subjective and could or would
                                      > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                      > conservations.
                                      >
                                      > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                      > may be "true" for you and
                                      > for most people but not
                                      > not for all people. And, is
                                      > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                      > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                      > this within earshot of people
                                      > who aren't feeling well or
                                      > who can't enjoy the day?
                                      > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                      > to keep the critics of his
                                      > policies and of his H.I.s
                                      > to a minimum.
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                      > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                      > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                      > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                      > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                      > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                      > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                      > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                      > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                      > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                      >
                                      > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                      > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                      >
                                      > Good to be away from it.
                                      >
                                      > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                      > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                      > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                      > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                      > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                      > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                      > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                      > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                      > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                      > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                      > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                      > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                      > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                      > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                      > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                      > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                      > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                      > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                      > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                      > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                      > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                      > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                      > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                      > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                      > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                      > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                      > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                      > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                      >
                                      > Russ wrote:
                                      > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                      > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                      > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                      > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                      >
                                      > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                      > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                      > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                      > things.
                                      >
                                      > Russ
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > prometheus wrote:
                                      > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                      > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                      > that Klemp has enough of
                                      > a problem that he used it
                                      > in the ASK The MASTER
                                      > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                      > And, it was the only question!
                                      > They had, supposedly, an
                                      > H.I. write-in and point out
                                      > the problem. No name given.
                                      >
                                      > I remember when I had
                                      > to deal with some older
                                      > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                      > coordinator and director
                                      > positions and it was
                                      > impossible to get this
                                      > one to follow the Guidelines
                                      > on EK Worship Services
                                      > (EWS). Many long-time
                                      > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                      > Guidelines and my
                                      > RESA turned a blind-
                                      > eye to it all. We had
                                      > so many former RESAs
                                      > in volunteer positions
                                      > that it was impossible
                                      > to get them on the
                                      > same page and to follow
                                      > procedures. I think
                                      > that some were just
                                      > burned out and tired
                                      > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                      > didn't want to leave.
                                      > Maybe they had too
                                      > many friendships to
                                      > lose. Plus, let's face
                                      > it. A lot of these people
                                      > are losers in the real
                                      > world but are big shots
                                      > in Eckankar. Those
                                      > Higher Initiations are
                                      > a big deal to the ego!
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                      > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                      > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                      > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                      > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                      > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                      >
                                      > Non ;)
                                      >
                                      > prometheus wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello All,
                                      > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                      > > Letter I've read that
                                      > > Klemp still needs to
                                      > > update his Guidelines
                                      > > for the H.I.s in the
                                      > > field and chastise
                                      > > those who are slow
                                      > > to get with the program.
                                      > >
                                      > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                      > > want the freedom
                                      > > of Soul to be more
                                      > > individualistic,
                                      > > spontaneous, and
                                      > > creative by thinking
                                      > > they (Soul) can operate
                                      > > outside-of-the-box,
                                      > > thus, being channels
                                      > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                      > > has previously stated
                                      > > that he's imperfect,
                                      > > but that's not the case
                                      > > with the ECK, correct?
                                      > >
                                      > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                      > > their current (Present)
                                      > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                      > > followed versus that
                                      > > of outer set-in-stone
                                      > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                      > > in the Past and approved
                                      > > by a committee of imperfect
                                      > > people on a plane ruled
                                      > > by the KAL?
                                      > >
                                      > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                      > > that freedom of expression
                                      > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                      > > version of ECKankar.
                                      > > It's a hierarchy where
                                      > > everything is spelled
                                      > > out and controlled
                                      > > by him and his secret
                                      > > RESA police, plus, all
                                      > > field work must be
                                      > > approved via the
                                      > > current Guidelines.
                                      > >
                                      > > Many inexperienced
                                      > > EKists like the idea of
                                      > > being told how to do
                                      > > this or that and what
                                      > > approved books to use
                                      > > and what to say and
                                      > > other details to make
                                      > > the promotion of
                                      > > Eckankar easier.
                                      > >
                                      > > But the real point the
                                      > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                      > > is to have EK PR more
                                      > > consistent and cookie
                                      > > cutter looking/sounding
                                      > > for the public.
                                      > >
                                      > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                      > > are like following a
                                      > > recipe set-in-stone
                                      > > that disregards individual
                                      > > or regional tastes and
                                      > > disallows any additions
                                      > > or omissions of other
                                      > > ingredients, methods,
                                      > > and/or spices.
                                      > >
                                      > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                      > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                      > > change. He says they "rock
                                      > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                      > > that "it's all about fear."
                                      > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                      > > and "reinforce in each other
                                      > > a group's opposition to
                                      > > anything new." Strange
                                      > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                      > > subject to fear since he's
                                      > > supposed to protect them!
                                      > > This is how the KAL works.
                                      > > Klemp is his agent.
                                      > >
                                      > > However, the real 'change'
                                      > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                      > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                      > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                      > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                      > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                      > > being bound to dogma.
                                      > > HK side-steps delivering
                                      > > on his promises of protection
                                      > > and never has anything
                                      > > profound to share. And,
                                      > > where are those Higher
                                      > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                      > > yardsticks in measuring
                                      > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                      > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                      > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                      > > stingy and self-serving.
                                      > >
                                      > > Harold goes on to say that
                                      > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                      > > on the path to God instead
                                      > > of being stepping stones."
                                      > > Apparently, being creative
                                      > > and spontaneous and
                                      > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                      > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                      > > permitted if it conflicts
                                      > > with the LEM's outer,
                                      > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                      > >
                                      > > The LEM states that, "We
                                      > > are here to learn." However,
                                      > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                      > > from others since he never
                                      > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                      > > and doesn't partake in
                                      > > two-way dialogues with
                                      > > those under his authority.
                                      > >
                                      > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                      > > and unloving as he continues
                                      > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                      > > believe that if they sit still
                                      > > and breathe only enough to
                                      > > sustain life that they may
                                      > > well dodge the lightning
                                      > > strikes of irksome change."
                                      > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                      > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                      > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                      > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                      > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                      > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                      > > that could have be averted
                                      > > if they had gotten proper
                                      > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                      > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                      > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                      > > are meaningless... unless
                                      > > you've given this Black
                                      > > Magician power over you!
                                      > >
                                      > > But, it seems that HK
                                      > > has something else stuck
                                      > > in his craw. It seems to
                                      > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                      > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                      > > still and Contemplating
                                      > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                      > > life. But why shouldn't
                                      > > they take it easy after
                                      > > 40 years of doing PR
                                      > > work for Eckankar!
                                      > >
                                      > > So, what does Klemp
                                      > > the All compassionate,
                                      > > loving, positive, and
                                      > > empathetic icon of EK
                                      > > conclude?
                                      > >
                                      > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                      > > refuses to adhere to
                                      > > the ECK Guidelines
                                      > > needs to be addressed
                                      > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                      > > I wonder what that
                                      > > really means? Well,
                                      > > unless you're already
                                      > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                      > > next initiation good-bye
                                      > > for like 10-20 years!
                                      > >
                                      > > Klemp continues to say,
                                      > > "These are big stakes!
                                      > > Continued refusal means
                                      > > it's time for a replacement
                                      > > to step in. A change is
                                      > > due. Change. isn't it
                                      > > funny how we have come
                                      > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                      > > really funny. Klemp
                                      > > abuses the concept
                                      > > of "change" and makes
                                      > > it into a misnomer.
                                      > >
                                      > > What "changes" are there
                                      > > in Eckankar? The same
                                      > > old things are merely
                                      > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                      > > off and made to seem
                                      > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                      > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                      > > a game of pretend by
                                      > > creating brightly colored
                                      > > straws to grab at and
                                      > > cling to when drowning.
                                      > >
                                      > > Too bad that EKists are
                                      > > so deluded and needy
                                      > > and aren't able to read
                                      > > between the lines and
                                      > > see the real truth behind
                                      > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                      >



                                    • Russ Rodnick
                                      Janice, you are so kind , thank you. Russ ________________________________ From: Janice Pfeiffer To:
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Janice,
                                        you are so kind , thank you.

                                        Russ


                                        From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:35 AM
                                        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                                         
                                        Hi Russ,
                                         
                                        I am sorry if my talk about initiations disturbed you in any way.  It is a disturbing thing to come to grips with since you are told right from the start that those sacred initiations come from the mahanta. 
                                         
                                        I hope all goes well with you as you take the final stages of leaving eckankar.  I hope you will find comfort in knowing that you can stand on your own and any growth you had while in, you still have.  All along you were doing it for yourself, and you still can.
                                         
                                        I know you have the strength and courage to do anything you feel you have to do.  I hope you know that this site is a great place to get support should you needed. 
                                         
                                        Please know I will be thinking of you in the coming weeks and I will be sending warm thoughts your way.
                                         
                                        Keep your chin up and please know you are a very good person person.
                                         
                                        Janice

                                        --- On Sat, 12/15/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                                        From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                                        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                        To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 3:35 PM

                                         
                                        Janice,

                                        I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member. 

                                        I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'. 

                                        That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                                        On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                                        I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know. 

                                        Later,
                                        Russ


                                        From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:37 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                                         
                                        Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                                         
                                        Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                                         
                                        That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                                         
                                        In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                                         
                                         I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                                         
                                        The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                                         
                                        It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                                         
                                        When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                                         
                                        Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                                         
                                        I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                                        --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                                         
                                        Hello Janice,
                                        Thanks for the interesting
                                        reply and the sharing of
                                        insights and experiences.
                                        I really really enjoyed it
                                        all.

                                        The reason why someone
                                        knew you received your
                                        pink slip is because the
                                        RESA gets an initiation
                                        eligibility list where he/
                                        she will mark yea/nay
                                        for an initiation. When
                                        the yea is checked the
                                        ESC (membership services)
                                        will more than likely issue
                                        the pink slip for the initiation.
                                        Or, the file has been red
                                        flagged for some reason.
                                        Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                        a temporary hold on higher
                                        initiations. Maybe it's due
                                        to pending requirements
                                        for training/retraining.
                                        The ESC will notify the
                                        RESA when the pink slip
                                        is sent.

                                        Most Eckists don't know
                                        how the initiation process
                                        works.

                                        The RESA has a membership
                                        list generated by the ESC
                                        for all those EKists in their
                                        region and it will show
                                        initiation level, one's status
                                        and date of membership
                                        among other info. If a
                                        new person sends in a
                                        membership form to the
                                        ESC from anywhere in
                                        the RESA's region the RESA
                                        will be notified of who
                                        they are and their mailing
                                        address.

                                        I was glad Ford Johnson
                                        wrote his book and that
                                        I was told about it by an
                                        Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                        The Irony is that he was
                                        doing Public Information
                                        and was quite the gossip.

                                        I always was the skeptic
                                        and had trouble with a lot
                                        of what I saw and experienced
                                        around H.I.s.

                                        When I was a lower initiate
                                        I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                        spiritual nor anywhere close
                                        to being enlightened. There
                                        were too many contradictions,
                                        restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                        Once you're an EK member
                                        the next step is to get you
                                        to become a volunteer on
                                        HK's sales team.

                                        I always wondered how
                                        was there an "inner" connection
                                        to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                        were still smoking and
                                        drinking alcohol, but
                                        getting promoted with
                                        more initiations? I knew
                                        of two 5ths who smoked
                                        and drank and got pink
                                        slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                        that Klemp knows nothing
                                        unless informed via phone
                                        or snailmail... email now!

                                        Yes, Janice, we were the
                                        ones awakened to the Truth
                                        while all of those "Higher"
                                        (pretend) Initiates are still
                                        sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                        become very skilled at
                                        regurgitating the PR and
                                        at facilitating and public
                                        speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                        no idea of what it's like
                                        to be Free thinkers and
                                        free of religion and of the
                                        EK Hierarchy. They think
                                        that their "spiritual experiences"
                                        are unique when these
                                        are common and similar
                                        experiences that all religious
                                        seekers have had... even
                                        Christians!

                                        Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                        in order to fill a void and
                                        to learn some important
                                        lessons about ourselves
                                        and about religion in general.

                                        IMO, Those who left
                                        Eckankar but still have
                                        a need for religion, haven't
                                        really learned that they
                                        will never find answers
                                        via a group consciousness
                                        or via a guru/master.
                                        True, it is nice to know
                                        people of like mind and
                                        to share things, but this
                                        can be a bad thing as well
                                        if we become too attached
                                        or lazy and want to play
                                        follow the leader again.

                                        It all comes down to one's
                                        private and personal experiences
                                        and inner revelations with
                                        oneSelf and with whatever
                                        catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                        Prometheus

                                        Janice wrote:
                                        I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                        Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                        I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                        Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                        How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                        That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                        The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                        Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                        I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                        I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                        I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                        Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                        Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                        Blessings to all of you.


                                        prometheus wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                        > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                        > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                        > and "explorer" positions at
                                        > the EK Centers would trip
                                        > over their egos and go on
                                        > power trips. Many seemed
                                        > cliquish and would huddle
                                        > together. Then, again, some
                                        > weren't all that friendly or
                                        > were very introverted and
                                        > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                        > including the clerics, to
                                        > greet and talk to all of the
                                        > new or seldom seen faces
                                        > that showed up. Many
                                        > only saw other Eckists at
                                        > the monthly EWS and this
                                        > was a time to catch up on
                                        > things. This is why I'd
                                        > suggest going to lunch
                                        > after the EWS and socializing.
                                        >
                                        > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                        > True? I think so!
                                        >
                                        > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                        > and requirements for Eckists
                                        > means that they must take
                                        > on extroverted roles in
                                        > order to become H.I.s.
                                        > Eckists must force themselves,
                                        > against their innate natures,
                                        > to become extroverted and
                                        > egocentric. These leadership
                                        > requirements create conflict,
                                        > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                        > Thus, this imbalance that
                                        > Klemp has created and
                                        > reenforces aids him in
                                        > the brainwashing of his
                                        > flock to have programmed
                                        > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                        > mystical experiences. But,
                                        > this has its toll and is why
                                        > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                        > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                        > and his anal control tactics.
                                        >
                                        > Sometimes, at special
                                        > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                        > and mini retreats the
                                        > long-time H.I.s, former
                                        > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                        > members would gather
                                        > around and gossip about
                                        > those absent or present.
                                        > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                        > gossip but rationalized
                                        > as more of an evaluative/
                                        > investigative discussion
                                        > for possible initiation
                                        > recommendation or for
                                        > a Satsang position appointment.
                                        > They wanted to know,
                                        > from sources who knew
                                        > them, if there were problems
                                        > with these EKists and, if
                                        > so, what the specific details
                                        > were. It was all ego driven
                                        > and subjective because we
                                        > were all volunteers and
                                        > had family and personal
                                        > lives too. But, it did weed
                                        > out those who weren't as
                                        > well indoctrinated....
                                        > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                        > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                        > much always a waste of
                                        > time so, in the long run,
                                        > enthusiasm was probably
                                        > more important than acting
                                        > the part. The Satsang positions
                                        > and duties kept people
                                        > busy, gave them a purpose
                                        > and made them feel good,
                                        > although, very stressed out.
                                        >
                                        > The Initiation game has made
                                        > Eckists struggle with denying
                                        > how much more they want of
                                        > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                        >
                                        > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                        > that an ESA told you that the
                                        > people at the EK Center were
                                        > crazy. That just isn't done
                                        > and is part of HK's agenda
                                        > of Silence and retraining.
                                        >
                                        > There's that old Buddha quote
                                        > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                        > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                        > and this is supposed to keep
                                        > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                        > sometimes get reported:
                                        > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                        > this I ask myself before I
                                        > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                        > following this criteria is very
                                        > subjective and could or would
                                        > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                        > conservations.
                                        >
                                        > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                        > may be "true" for you and
                                        > for most people but not
                                        > not for all people. And, is
                                        > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                        > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                        > this within earshot of people
                                        > who aren't feeling well or
                                        > who can't enjoy the day?
                                        > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                        > to keep the critics of his
                                        > policies and of his H.I.s
                                        > to a minimum.
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                        > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                        > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                        > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                        > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                        > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                        > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                        > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                        > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                        > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                        >
                                        > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                        > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                        >
                                        > Good to be away from it.
                                        >
                                        > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                        > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                        > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                        > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                        > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                        > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                        > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                        > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                        > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                        > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                        > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                        > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                        > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                        > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                        > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                        > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                        > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                        > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                        > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                        > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                        > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                        > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                        > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                        > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                        > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                        > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                        > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                        > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                        >
                                        > Russ wrote:
                                        > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                        > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                        > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                        > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                        >
                                        > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                        > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                        > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                        > things.
                                        >
                                        > Russ
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > prometheus wrote:
                                        > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                        > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                        > that Klemp has enough of
                                        > a problem that he used it
                                        > in the ASK The MASTER
                                        > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                        > And, it was the only question!
                                        > They had, supposedly, an
                                        > H.I. write-in and point out
                                        > the problem. No name given.
                                        >
                                        > I remember when I had
                                        > to deal with some older
                                        > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                        > coordinator and director
                                        > positions and it was
                                        > impossible to get this
                                        > one to follow the Guidelines
                                        > on EK Worship Services
                                        > (EWS). Many long-time
                                        > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                        > Guidelines and my
                                        > RESA turned a blind-
                                        > eye to it all. We had
                                        > so many former RESAs
                                        > in volunteer positions
                                        > that it was impossible
                                        > to get them on the
                                        > same page and to follow
                                        > procedures. I think
                                        > that some were just
                                        > burned out and tired
                                        > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                        > didn't want to leave.
                                        > Maybe they had too
                                        > many friendships to
                                        > lose. Plus, let's face
                                        > it. A lot of these people
                                        > are losers in the real
                                        > world but are big shots
                                        > in Eckankar. Those
                                        > Higher Initiations are
                                        > a big deal to the ego!
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                        > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                        > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                        > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                        > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                        > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                        >
                                        > Non ;)
                                        >
                                        > prometheus wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello All,
                                        > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                        > > Letter I've read that
                                        > > Klemp still needs to
                                        > > update his Guidelines
                                        > > for the H.I.s in the
                                        > > field and chastise
                                        > > those who are slow
                                        > > to get with the program.
                                        > >
                                        > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                        > > want the freedom
                                        > > of Soul to be more
                                        > > individualistic,
                                        > > spontaneous, and
                                        > > creative by thinking
                                        > > they (Soul) can operate
                                        > > outside-of-the-box,
                                        > > thus, being channels
                                        > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                        > > has previously stated
                                        > > that he's imperfect,
                                        > > but that's not the case
                                        > > with the ECK, correct?
                                        > >
                                        > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                        > > their current (Present)
                                        > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                        > > followed versus that
                                        > > of outer set-in-stone
                                        > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                        > > in the Past and approved
                                        > > by a committee of imperfect
                                        > > people on a plane ruled
                                        > > by the KAL?
                                        > >
                                        > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                        > > that freedom of expression
                                        > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                        > > version of ECKankar.
                                        > > It's a hierarchy where
                                        > > everything is spelled
                                        > > out and controlled
                                        > > by him and his secret
                                        > > RESA police, plus, all
                                        > > field work must be
                                        > > approved via the
                                        > > current Guidelines.
                                        > >
                                        > > Many inexperienced
                                        > > EKists like the idea of
                                        > > being told how to do
                                        > > this or that and what
                                        > > approved books to use
                                        > > and what to say and
                                        > > other details to make
                                        > > the promotion of
                                        > > Eckankar easier.
                                        > >
                                        > > But the real point the
                                        > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                        > > is to have EK PR more
                                        > > consistent and cookie
                                        > > cutter looking/sounding
                                        > > for the public.
                                        > >
                                        > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                        > > are like following a
                                        > > recipe set-in-stone
                                        > > that disregards individual
                                        > > or regional tastes and
                                        > > disallows any additions
                                        > > or omissions of other
                                        > > ingredients, methods,
                                        > > and/or spices.
                                        > >
                                        > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                        > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                        > > change. He says they "rock
                                        > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                        > > that "it's all about fear."
                                        > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                        > > and "reinforce in each other
                                        > > a group's opposition to
                                        > > anything new." Strange
                                        > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                        > > subject to fear since he's
                                        > > supposed to protect them!
                                        > > This is how the KAL works.
                                        > > Klemp is his agent.
                                        > >
                                        > > However, the real 'change'
                                        > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                        > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                        > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                        > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                        > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                        > > being bound to dogma.
                                        > > HK side-steps delivering
                                        > > on his promises of protection
                                        > > and never has anything
                                        > > profound to share. And,
                                        > > where are those Higher
                                        > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                        > > yardsticks in measuring
                                        > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                        > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                        > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                        > > stingy and self-serving.
                                        > >
                                        > > Harold goes on to say that
                                        > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                        > > on the path to God instead
                                        > > of being stepping stones."
                                        > > Apparently, being creative
                                        > > and spontaneous and
                                        > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                        > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                        > > permitted if it conflicts
                                        > > with the LEM's outer,
                                        > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                        > >
                                        > > The LEM states that, "We
                                        > > are here to learn." However,
                                        > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                        > > from others since he never
                                        > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                        > > and doesn't partake in
                                        > > two-way dialogues with
                                        > > those under his authority.
                                        > >
                                        > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                        > > and unloving as he continues
                                        > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                        > > believe that if they sit still
                                        > > and breathe only enough to
                                        > > sustain life that they may
                                        > > well dodge the lightning
                                        > > strikes of irksome change."
                                        > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                        > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                        > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                        > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                        > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                        > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                        > > that could have be averted
                                        > > if they had gotten proper
                                        > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                        > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                        > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                        > > are meaningless... unless
                                        > > you've given this Black
                                        > > Magician power over you!
                                        > >
                                        > > But, it seems that HK
                                        > > has something else stuck
                                        > > in his craw. It seems to
                                        > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                        > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                        > > still and Contemplating
                                        > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                        > > life. But why shouldn't
                                        > > they take it easy after
                                        > > 40 years of doing PR
                                        > > work for Eckankar!
                                        > >
                                        > > So, what does Klemp
                                        > > the All compassionate,
                                        > > loving, positive, and
                                        > > empathetic icon of EK
                                        > > conclude?
                                        > >
                                        > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                        > > refuses to adhere to
                                        > > the ECK Guidelines
                                        > > needs to be addressed
                                        > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                        > > I wonder what that
                                        > > really means? Well,
                                        > > unless you're already
                                        > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                        > > next initiation good-bye
                                        > > for like 10-20 years!
                                        > >
                                        > > Klemp continues to say,
                                        > > "These are big stakes!
                                        > > Continued refusal means
                                        > > it's time for a replacement
                                        > > to step in. A change is
                                        > > due. Change. isn't it
                                        > > funny how we have come
                                        > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                        > > really funny. Klemp
                                        > > abuses the concept
                                        > > of "change" and makes
                                        > > it into a misnomer.
                                        > >
                                        > > What "changes" are there
                                        > > in Eckankar? The same
                                        > > old things are merely
                                        > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                        > > off and made to seem
                                        > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                        > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                        > > a game of pretend by
                                        > > creating brightly colored
                                        > > straws to grab at and
                                        > > cling to when drowning.
                                        > >
                                        > > Too bad that EKists are
                                        > > so deluded and needy
                                        > > and aren't able to read
                                        > > between the lines and
                                        > > see the real truth behind
                                        > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        >





                                      • prometheus_973
                                        Hello Janice, Non and All, Thank you for the kind words and understanding. It got me to thinking about the basis for the whole EK initiation eligibility
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
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                                          Hello Janice, Non and All,
                                          Thank you for the kind
                                          words and understanding.
                                          It got me to thinking about
                                          the basis for the whole EK
                                          initiation eligibility screening.

                                          I think that we've all heard
                                          about the importance of
                                          keeping the EK Teachings
                                          "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
                                          must be current on procedures,
                                          and guidelines which will,
                                          also, ensure that they are
                                          able to regurgitate the
                                          approved propaganda.
                                          The initiation eligibility
                                          screenings are to sort out
                                          those who still need more
                                          training or are ready to
                                          advance to the next stage
                                          and take on more responsibilities
                                          with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
                                          Sales Teams.

                                          Plus, the initiation screenings
                                          ensure that Klemp will have
                                          people who are willing to
                                          participate in the promotion
                                          of the organization. It has
                                          nothing to do with one's
                                          spiritual growth. But, sincerity
                                          and believability goes a
                                          long way in convincing others.
                                          However, one can't be too
                                          deluded. One needs to be
                                          believable and this is why
                                          the faithful are the ones most
                                          shocked when they can finally
                                          open their minds to hear
                                          the truth.

                                          Maybe most of the heavy
                                          handed methods, lack of
                                          empathy and compassion,
                                          are rationalizations where
                                          the RESAs are thinking
                                          they are toughening up
                                          and strengthening Soul
                                          while, also, protecting
                                          the Mahanta, supporting
                                          his "Mission," and keeping
                                          the EK Teachings "pure"
                                          and unchangeable over
                                          time.

                                          When taking a second look;
                                          HK has his RESAs confused.
                                          How does Klemp continue
                                          to promote "change" and
                                          is always updating things
                                          while keeping the "original"
                                          EK Teachings by Twitchell
                                          "pure?" The truth is that,
                                          as LEM, Klemp has the
                                          authority to Change and
                                          revisit all EK Dogma and
                                          "update" and revise it
                                          with his own spin.

                                          Therefore, only the current
                                          EK teachings (Guidelines
                                          included) are "pure" according
                                          to what Klemp is suggesting.
                                          Except, the reason why HK
                                          has chosen not to reprint
                                          most of Twitchell's books
                                          is because they are highly
                                          plagiarized versus being
                                          "current" with today's higher
                                          consciousness.

                                          The foundation of Eckankar
                                          is built upon a con and a
                                          hoax and is not even copied
                                          from the highest "truths"
                                          of other religions since these
                                          religions are flawed as well.
                                          Twitchell's books are more
                                          evidence to prove the case
                                          and to show that he was
                                          simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
                                          and a narcissistic wannabe.

                                          Prometheus


                                          Prometheus

                                          Janice wrote:
                                          I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things. I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations. I did admire you for it also. I apologize for not telling you then.

                                          At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time. There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others.

                                          Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join. I did go in of my own free will like everybody else. I opened myself up to it, like everybody else. So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts. We chose to join eckankar.

                                          Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it. You were one of those.

                                          Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people? Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others.

                                          I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get. Do you think those who passed on, do? It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.

                                          By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart.

                                          Be at peace

                                          Janice


                                          Non ekchains:

                                          Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                          Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                          http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                          Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                          In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                          I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                          Blessings

                                          Non ;)


                                          prometheus wrote:

                                          Hello Janice,
                                          Most H.I.s have no idea
                                          how the EK Initiation
                                          process works. It's sad
                                          because there are some
                                          really nice and gentile
                                          chelas who have been
                                          passed over on the 5th.
                                          Some died as 4ths when
                                          they should have had
                                          some happiness, peace
                                          of mind, and contentment
                                          by receiving that 5th.
                                          I've know several eckists
                                          where this has happened.
                                          It was no big deal to give
                                          them their 5th initiation,
                                          but some RESAs are mean-
                                          spirited, lack empathy,
                                          and are petty. They've
                                          gotten caught up in HK's
                                          game. All Eckists should
                                          get the 5th after no more
                                          than 20 years, especially,
                                          when they participate
                                          and are kept current on
                                          their membership. However,
                                          that's not the way the
                                          power trip is played by
                                          some RESAs.

                                          I hate to admit this but
                                          I helped the RESA when
                                          asked about people. I
                                          was quizzed about those
                                          up for, usually, the 5th
                                          and 6th initiation. I was
                                          asked about what the EKist
                                          said, how they acted and
                                          conducted themselves
                                          and any unusual things
                                          that I noticed about
                                          their behavior or performance.
                                          And then I was asked for
                                          my opinion. Unfortunately
                                          my replies, I know, had
                                          some initiations delayed
                                          for these people and I
                                          regret that I got caught
                                          up in this petty mind game.
                                          Some of these people are
                                          still H.I.s and have no idea
                                          why they had to wait so
                                          long for their 5th or 6th.
                                          Many probably think that
                                          the Mahanta was testing
                                          them! LOL! On the other
                                          hand maybe some of them,
                                          by now, have been asked
                                          to evaluate people too.
                                          I wonder if they put two
                                          and two together and
                                          figured it out.

                                          Why, though, should
                                          Klemp have a system
                                          for initiations that judges
                                          and punishes Eckists
                                          based upon our evaluations?
                                          Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                          of the Mahanta?

                                          Besides, a 5th is no big
                                          deal, and it's not like one
                                          becomes a cleric automatically
                                          with a 5th. Really, being
                                          an 5th is no more being
                                          an official representative
                                          of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                          Yes, most Eckists have
                                          no idea that a computer
                                          generated eligibility list
                                          is sent to the RESA by the
                                          ESC and that phone calls
                                          are made asking questions
                                          where subjective answers
                                          are given and that the RESA
                                          uses these to either approve
                                          and give a recommendation
                                          for initiation or doesn't.
                                          However, I will say that
                                          any "No" has to have an
                                          valid reason. The ESC
                                          usually follows the RESAs'
                                          recommendations.

                                          BTW- Janice, I think that
                                          your RESA approved of
                                          your initiation because
                                          he felt guilty for having
                                          yelled at you, plus, you
                                          could have reported him
                                          to the ESC. Maybe the
                                          initiation approval was
                                          meant to appease you?

                                          Prometheus

                                          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                          Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                          teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                          person?

                                          That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                          was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                          on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                          crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                          that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                          was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                          totally useless.

                                          In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                          about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                          I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                          of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                          didn't use his name at all.

                                          The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                          seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                          had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                          then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                          asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                          times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                          along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                          his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                          point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                          time and hung up.

                                          It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                          up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                          called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                          appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                          paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                          performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                          that was part of it.

                                          When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                          thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                          there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                          was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                          the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                          insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                          was enough.

                                          Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                          true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                          I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                          I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                          opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                          like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                          prometheus wrote:

                                          Hello Janice,
                                          Thanks for the interesting
                                          reply and the sharing of
                                          insights and experiences.
                                          I really really enjoyed it
                                          all.

                                          The reason why someone
                                          knew you received your
                                          pink slip is because the
                                          RESA gets an initiation
                                          eligibility list where he/
                                          she will mark yea/nay
                                          for an initiation. When
                                          the yea is checked the
                                          ESC (membership services)
                                          will more than likely issue
                                          the pink slip for the initiation.
                                          Or, the file has been red
                                          flagged for some reason.
                                          Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                          a temporary hold on higher
                                          initiations. Maybe it's due
                                          to pending requirements
                                          for training/retraining.
                                          The ESC will notify the
                                          RESA when the pink slip
                                          is sent.

                                          Most Eckists don't know
                                          how the initiation process
                                          works.

                                          The RESA has a membership
                                          list generated by the ESC
                                          for all those EKists in their
                                          region and it will show
                                          initiation level, one's status
                                          and date of membership
                                          among other info. If a
                                          new person sends in a
                                          membership form to the
                                          ESC from anywhere in
                                          the RESA's region the RESA
                                          will be notified of who
                                          they are and their mailing
                                          address.

                                          I was glad Ford Johnson
                                          wrote his book and that
                                          I was told about it by an
                                          Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                          The Irony is that he was
                                          doing Public Information
                                          and was quite the gossip.

                                          I always was the skeptic
                                          and had trouble with a lot
                                          of what I saw and experienced
                                          around H.I.s.

                                          When I was a lower initiate
                                          I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                          spiritual nor anywhere close
                                          to being enlightened. There
                                          were too many contradictions,
                                          restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                          Once you're an EK member
                                          the next step is to get you
                                          to become a volunteer on
                                          HK's sales team.

                                          I always wondered how
                                          was there an "inner" connection
                                          to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                          were still smoking and
                                          drinking alcohol, but
                                          getting promoted with
                                          more initiations? I knew
                                          of two 5ths who smoked
                                          and drank and got pink
                                          slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                          that Klemp knows nothing
                                          unless informed via phone
                                          or snailmail... email now!

                                          Yes, Janice, we were the
                                          ones awakened to the Truth
                                          while all of those "Higher"
                                          (pretend) Initiates are still
                                          sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                          become very skilled at
                                          regurgitating the PR and
                                          at facilitating and public
                                          speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                          no idea of what it's like
                                          to be Free thinkers and
                                          free of religion and of the
                                          EK Hierarchy. They think
                                          that their "spiritual experiences"
                                          are unique when these
                                          are common and similar
                                          experiences that all religious
                                          seekers have had... even
                                          Christians!

                                          Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                          in order to fill a void and
                                          to learn some important
                                          lessons about ourselves
                                          and about religion in general.

                                          IMO, Those who left
                                          Eckankar but still have
                                          a need for religion, haven't
                                          really learned that they
                                          will never find answers
                                          via a group consciousness
                                          or via a guru/master.
                                          True, it is nice to know
                                          people of like mind and
                                          to share things, but this
                                          can be a bad thing as well
                                          if we become too attached
                                          or lazy and want to play
                                          follow the leader again.

                                          It all comes down to one's
                                          private and personal experiences
                                          and inner revelations with
                                          oneSelf and with whatever
                                          catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                          Prometheus

                                          Janice wrote:
                                          I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                          it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                          people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                          The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                          new people.

                                          Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                          little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                          to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                          you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                          you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                          to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                          initiations.

                                          I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                          contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                          questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                          he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                          not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                          Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                          me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                          about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                          even.

                                          How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                          supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                          about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                          getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                          seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                          games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                          opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                          Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                          tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                          become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                          That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                          for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                          eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                          instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                          the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                          Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                          lucky that I got out when I did.

                                          The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                          lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                          they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                          in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                          good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                          that point the lies.

                                          Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                          like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                          not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                          define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                          individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                          responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                          after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                          I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                          individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                          the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                          in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                          this.

                                          I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                          maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                          spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                          all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                          the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                          own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                          quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                          I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                          mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                          there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                          Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                          they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                          spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                          slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                          getting out could lead to better things.

                                          Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                          reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                          your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                          to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                          serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                          the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                          are.

                                          Blessings to all of you.
                                        • Janice Pfeiffer
                                          Prometheus,   The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.   As a young person, I blamed my parents
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Dec 17, 2012
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                                            Prometheus,
                                             
                                            The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.
                                             
                                            As a young person, I blamed my parents for all I didn't get growing up.  I think most of us do get critical of the job our parents did at some point.  I must say my upbringing wasn't very good over all. 
                                             
                                            Well, the way I worked it out for myself was I decided they gave me the best they knew how to give at the time.  There was love there and they did give me as much as they were capable of.  They gave what they could.  They were not capable of more.
                                             
                                            I like most people have done things that I now consider mistakes, even some really bad mistakes.  But just like my parents I acted under the best info I had at the time. 
                                             
                                            It is not an excuse and it is not a victim type attitude.  If you don't know better, you can't do better.
                                             
                                            If I knew when I was born, all I know now, I could have avoided most of the mistakes I ever made.
                                             
                                            We all know that's not possible.  
                                             
                                            I know some of us come in as more advanced souls but we don't get here and immediately know what we are; not with out some experience in life.  It's the bumps and scrapes that helps us define who we are. 
                                             
                                            You did no permanent damage to anyone in eckankar because nothing we experience has a forever affect.  If they held on to resentment about an initiation, that is theirs to work out.
                                             
                                            You weren't even told the real lies that the org perpetrates to keep people in.
                                             
                                            You were forced to play a guessing game about the whole thing with the half truths you got.
                                             
                                            Besides you were indoctrinated into the world of how to be a good eckist, good HI and all  positions you may have held.
                                             
                                            You believed in what you were doing because you believed in the the teachings and the org.
                                             
                                            How can you be wrong if you don't know you are wrong?
                                             
                                            You got to a point where you decided you were wrong.
                                             
                                            You changed course. 
                                             
                                            A not so strong person might have stayed in the circus knowing they were wrong but wouldn't change it.
                                             
                                            In my eyes that makes you blameless for anything that happened in the org.
                                             
                                            I do have a question.  You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations.  What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development?  I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons.  It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org.  Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone.  Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar?  Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money.  Is that it?
                                             
                                            I read every eckankar book available at the time I was in.  I even had access to some that were out of print which were loaned to me by some one who was in during Paul's time.  I got to read Letters to Gail and Paul's books of fiction which I have forgotten the names of now.  If eckankar is now depending on that dry, uninspiring crap hk writes, eckankar is doomed.  There's no way, new people will get hooked on that stuff. 
                                             
                                            Thank you Prometheus
                                             


                                            --- On Sun, 12/16/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Sunday, December 16, 2012, 6:44 PM

                                             
                                            Hello Janice, Non and All,
                                            Thank you for the kind
                                            words and understanding.
                                            It got me to thinking about
                                            the basis for the whole EK
                                            initiation eligibility screening.

                                            I think that we've all heard
                                            about the importance of
                                            keeping the EK Teachings
                                            "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
                                            must be current on procedures,
                                            and guidelines which will,
                                            also, ensure that they are
                                            able to regurgitate the
                                            approved propaganda.
                                            The initiation eligibility
                                            screenings are to sort out
                                            those who still need more
                                            training or are ready to
                                            advance to the next stage
                                            and take on more responsibilities
                                            with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
                                            Sales Teams.

                                            Plus, the initiation screenings
                                            ensure that Klemp will have
                                            people who are willing to
                                            participate in the promotion
                                            of the organization. It has
                                            nothing to do with one's
                                            spiritual growth. But, sincerity
                                            and believability goes a
                                            long way in convincing others.
                                            However, one can't be too
                                            deluded. One needs to be
                                            believable and this is why
                                            the faithful are the ones most
                                            shocked when they can finally
                                            open their minds to hear
                                            the truth.

                                            Maybe most of the heavy
                                            handed methods, lack of
                                            empathy and compassion,
                                            are rationalizations where
                                            the RESAs are thinking
                                            they are toughening up
                                            and strengthening Soul
                                            while, also, protecting
                                            the Mahanta, supporting
                                            his "Mission," and keeping
                                            the EK Teachings "pure"
                                            and unchangeable over
                                            time.

                                            When taking a second look;
                                            HK has his RESAs confused.
                                            How does Klemp continue
                                            to promote "change" and
                                            is always updating things
                                            while keeping the "original"
                                            EK Teachings by Twitchell
                                            "pure?" The truth is that,
                                            as LEM, Klemp has the
                                            authority to Change and
                                            revisit all EK Dogma and
                                            "update" and revise it
                                            with his own spin.

                                            Therefore, only the current
                                            EK teachings (Guidelines
                                            included) are "pure" according
                                            to what Klemp is suggesting.
                                            Except, the reason why HK
                                            has chosen not to reprint
                                            most of Twitchell's books
                                            is because they are highly
                                            plagiarized versus being
                                            "current" with today's higher
                                            consciousness.

                                            The foundation of Eckankar
                                            is built upon a con and a
                                            hoax and is not even copied
                                            from the highest "truths"
                                            of other religions since these
                                            religions are flawed as well.
                                            Twitchell's books are more
                                            evidence to prove the case
                                            and to show that he was
                                            simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
                                            and a narcissistic wannabe.

                                            Prometheus

                                            Prometheus

                                            Janice wrote:
                                            I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things. I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations. I did admire you for it also. I apologize for not telling you then.

                                            At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time. There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others.

                                            Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join. I did go in of my own free will like everybody else. I opened myself up to it, like everybody else. So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts. We chose to join eckankar.

                                            Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it. You were one of those.

                                            Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people? Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others.

                                            I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get. Do you think those who passed on, do? It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.

                                            By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart.

                                            Be at peace

                                            Janice


                                            Non ekchains:

                                            Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                            Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                            http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                            Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                            In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                            I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                            Blessings

                                            Non ;)

                                            prometheus wrote:

                                            Hello Janice,
                                            Most H.I.s have no idea
                                            how the EK Initiation
                                            process works. It's sad
                                            because there are some
                                            really nice and gentile
                                            chelas who have been
                                            passed over on the 5th.
                                            Some died as 4ths when
                                            they should have had
                                            some happiness, peace
                                            of mind, and contentment
                                            by receiving that 5th.
                                            I've know several eckists
                                            where this has happened.
                                            It was no big deal to give
                                            them their 5th initiation,
                                            but some RESAs are mean-
                                            spirited, lack empathy,
                                            and are petty. They've
                                            gotten caught up in HK's
                                            game. All Eckists should
                                            get the 5th after no more
                                            than 20 years, especially,
                                            when they participate
                                            and are kept current on
                                            their membership. However,
                                            that's not the way the
                                            power trip is played by
                                            some RESAs.

                                            I hate to admit this but
                                            I helped the RESA when
                                            asked about people. I
                                            was quizzed about those
                                            up for, usually, the 5th
                                            and 6th initiation. I was
                                            asked about what the EKist
                                            said, how they acted and
                                            conducted themselves
                                            and any unusual things
                                            that I noticed about
                                            their behavior or performance.
                                            And then I was asked for
                                            my opinion. Unfortunately
                                            my replies, I know, had
                                            some initiations delayed
                                            for these people and I
                                            regret that I got caught
                                            up in this petty mind game.
                                            Some of these people are
                                            still H.I.s and have no idea
                                            why they had to wait so
                                            long for their 5th or 6th.
                                            Many probably think that
                                            the Mahanta was testing
                                            them! LOL! On the other
                                            hand maybe some of them,
                                            by now, have been asked
                                            to evaluate people too.
                                            I wonder if they put two
                                            and two together and
                                            figured it out.

                                            Why, though, should
                                            Klemp have a system
                                            for initiations that judges
                                            and punishes Eckists
                                            based upon our evaluations?
                                            Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                            of the Mahanta?

                                            Besides, a 5th is no big
                                            deal, and it's not like one
                                            becomes a cleric automatically
                                            with a 5th. Really, being
                                            an 5th is no more being
                                            an official representative
                                            of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                            Yes, most Eckists have
                                            no idea that a computer
                                            generated eligibility list
                                            is sent to the RESA by the
                                            ESC and that phone calls
                                            are made asking questions
                                            where subjective answers
                                            are given and that the RESA
                                            uses these to either approve
                                            and give a recommendation
                                            for initiation or doesn't.
                                            However, I will say that
                                            any "No" has to have an
                                            valid reason. The ESC
                                            usually follows the RESAs'
                                            recommendations.

                                            BTW- Janice, I think that
                                            your RESA approved of
                                            your initiation because
                                            he felt guilty for having
                                            yelled at you, plus, you
                                            could have reported him
                                            to the ESC. Maybe the
                                            initiation approval was
                                            meant to appease you?

                                            Prometheus

                                            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                            Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                            Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                            teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                            person?

                                            That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                            was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                            on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                            crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                            that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                            was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                            totally useless.

                                            In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                            about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                            I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                            of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                            didn't use his name at all.

                                            The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                            seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                            had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                            then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                            asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                            times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                            along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                            his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                            point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                            time and hung up.

                                            It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                            up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                            called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                            appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                            paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                            performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                            that was part of it.

                                            When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                            thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                            there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                            was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                            the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                            insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                            was enough.

                                            Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                            true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                            I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                            I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                            opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                            like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                            prometheus wrote:

                                            Hello Janice,
                                            Thanks for the interesting
                                            reply and the sharing of
                                            insights and experiences.
                                            I really really enjoyed it
                                            all.

                                            The reason why someone
                                            knew you received your
                                            pink slip is because the
                                            RESA gets an initiation
                                            eligibility list where he/
                                            she will mark yea/nay
                                            for an initiation. When
                                            the yea is checked the
                                            ESC (membership services)
                                            will more than likely issue
                                            the pink slip for the initiation.
                                            Or, the file has been red
                                            flagged for some reason.
                                            Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                            a temporary hold on higher
                                            initiations. Maybe it's due
                                            to pending requirements
                                            for training/retraining.
                                            The ESC will notify the
                                            RESA when the pink slip
                                            is sent.

                                            Most Eckists don't know
                                            how the initiation process
                                            works.

                                            The RESA has a membership
                                            list generated by the ESC
                                            for all those EKists in their
                                            region and it will show
                                            initiation level, one's status
                                            and date of membership
                                            among other info. If a
                                            new person sends in a
                                            membership form to the
                                            ESC from anywhere in
                                            the RESA's region the RESA
                                            will be notified of who
                                            they are and their mailing
                                            address.

                                            I was glad Ford Johnson
                                            wrote his book and that
                                            I was told about it by an
                                            Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                            The Irony is that he was
                                            doing Public Information
                                            and was quite the gossip.

                                            I always was the skeptic
                                            and had trouble with a lot
                                            of what I saw and experienced
                                            around H.I.s.

                                            When I was a lower initiate
                                            I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                            spiritual nor anywhere close
                                            to being enlightened. There
                                            were too many contradictions,
                                            restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                            Once you're an EK member
                                            the next step is to get you
                                            to become a volunteer on
                                            HK's sales team.

                                            I always wondered how
                                            was there an "inner" connection
                                            to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                            were still smoking and
                                            drinking alcohol, but
                                            getting promoted with
                                            more initiations? I knew
                                            of two 5ths who smoked
                                            and drank and got pink
                                            slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                            that Klemp knows nothing
                                            unless informed via phone
                                            or snailmail... email now!

                                            Yes, Janice, we were the
                                            ones awakened to the Truth
                                            while all of those "Higher"
                                            (pretend) Initiates are still
                                            sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                            become very skilled at
                                            regurgitating the PR and
                                            at facilitating and public
                                            speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                            no idea of what it's like
                                            to be Free thinkers and
                                            free of religion and of the
                                            EK Hierarchy. They think
                                            that their "spiritual experiences"
                                            are unique when these
                                            are common and similar
                                            experiences that all religious
                                            seekers have had... even
                                            Christians!

                                            Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                            in order to fill a void and
                                            to learn some important
                                            lessons about ourselves
                                            and about religion in general.

                                            IMO, Those who left
                                            Eckankar but still have
                                            a need for religion, haven't
                                            really learned that they
                                            will never find answers
                                            via a group consciousness
                                            or via a guru/master.
                                            True, it is nice to know
                                            people of like mind and
                                            to share things, but this
                                            can be a bad thing as well
                                            if we become too attached
                                            or lazy and want to play
                                            follow the leader again.

                                            It all comes down to one's
                                            private and personal experiences
                                            and inner revelations with
                                            oneSelf and with whatever
                                            catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                            Prometheus

                                            Janice wrote:
                                            I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                            it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                            people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                            The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                            new people.

                                            Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                            little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                            to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                            you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                            you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                            to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                            initiations.

                                            I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                            contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                            questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                            he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                            not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                            Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                            me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                            about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                            even.

                                            How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                            supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                            about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                            getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                            seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                            games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                            opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                            Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                            tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                            become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                            That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                            for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                            eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                            instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                            the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                            Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                            lucky that I got out when I did.

                                            The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                            lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                            they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                            in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                            good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                            that point the lies.

                                            Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                            like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                            not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                            define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                            individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                            responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                            after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                            I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                            individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                            the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                            in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                            this.

                                            I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                            maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                            spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                            all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                            the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                            own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                            quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                            I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                            mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                            there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                            Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                            they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                            spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                            slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                            getting out could lead to better things.

                                            Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                            reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                            your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                            to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                            serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                            the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                            are.

                                            Blessings to all of you.

                                          • prometheus_973
                                            Hello Janice, You wrote: I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Dec 17, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hello Janice,
                                              You wrote: "I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations. What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development? I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons. It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org. Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone. Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar? Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money. Is that it?"

                                              I guess that I see it all as
                                              a puzzle that PT created,
                                              DG played with, and that
                                              Klemp altered, added to,
                                              omitted and scrambled
                                              up the pieces on. Trying
                                              to piece it all together and
                                              make sense of it all is what
                                              I'm attempting.

                                              The "spiritual" aspect of
                                              eckankar is comprised
                                              of shifting paradigms and
                                              wishful thinking (imagination)
                                              is encouraged. It's acting
                                              "as if." And, there are many
                                              mistakes in judgment and
                                              perception that are overlooked
                                              or seen as magical/mystical.
                                              One's status/level in Eckankar
                                              is what strengthens the
                                              illusion powered by ego.
                                              However, when all is said
                                              and done one is left with
                                              their own private and personal
                                              reality which cannot be
                                              fully shared with even
                                              those we view as intimate.

                                              If Initiations were given
                                              for "spiritual reasons"
                                              there would, also, be
                                              inner knowledge and
                                              inner communication
                                              with the Mahanta. EK
                                              Seminars would be
                                              conducted on the "Inner"
                                              via the Soul body and
                                              these would be free
                                              of charge!

                                              Yes, Service is key for
                                              Klemp's volunteer Sales
                                              Team and is promoted
                                              regularly. However, training
                                              is required in order for
                                              EKists to seem and sound
                                              more professional and
                                              knowledgable and to prepare
                                              Eckists to be flexible and
                                              unscathed in all situations.
                                              Plus, the training will aid
                                              in promoting those on the
                                              "fast track" and update
                                              the old timers to the new
                                              procedures.

                                              Basically, Service to the
                                              Mahanta's Mission is
                                              key. Getting noticed, in
                                              a positive way, is key as
                                              well. Training is also a
                                              key element in getting
                                              promoted. Being in Satsang
                                              and teaching a class is
                                              a plus as well. Doing intros
                                              will help and being seen
                                              at the EWS will help too.
                                              Always smile and know
                                              the current info from
                                              HK's stories and books.

                                              According to Eckankar
                                              the initiation numbers
                                              are yardstick measurements
                                              of one's spiritual growth.
                                              It's an enticing sounding
                                              spin but the reality is very
                                              bureaucratic and religious
                                              in the end.

                                              Prometheus





                                              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                              Prometheus,

                                              The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.

                                              As a young person, I blamed my parents for all I didn't get growing up. I think most of us do get critical of the job our parents did at some point. I must say my upbringing wasn't very good over all.

                                              Well, the way I worked it out for myself was I decided they gave me the best they knew how to give at the time. There was love there and they did give me as much as they were capable of. They gave what they could. They were not capable of more.

                                              I like most people have done things that I now consider mistakes, even some really bad mistakes. But just like my parents I acted under the best info I had at the time.

                                              It is not an excuse and it is not a victim type attitude. If you don't know better, you can't do better.

                                              If I knew when I was born, all I know now, I could have avoided most of the mistakes I ever made.

                                              We all know that's not possible.

                                              I know some of us come in as more advanced souls but we don't get here and immediately know what we are; not with out some experience in life. It's the bumps and scrapes that helps us define who we are.

                                              You did no permanent damage to anyone in eckankar because nothing we experience has a forever affect. If they held on to resentment about an initiation, that is theirs to work out.

                                              You weren't even told the real lies that the org perpetrates to keep people in.

                                              You were forced to play a guessing game about the whole thing with the half truths you got.

                                              Besides you were indoctrinated into the world of how to be a good eckist, good HI and all positions you may have held.

                                              You believed in what you were doing because you believed in the the teachings and the org.

                                              How can you be wrong if you don't know you are wrong?

                                              You got to a point where you decided you were wrong.

                                              You changed course.

                                              A not so strong person might have stayed in the circus knowing they were wrong but wouldn't change it.

                                              In my eyes that makes you blameless for anything that happened in the org.

                                              I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations. What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development? I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons. It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org. Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone. Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar? Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money. Is that it?

                                              I read every eckankar book available at the time I was in. I even had access to some that were out of print which were loaned to me by some one who was in during Paul's time. I got to read Letters to Gail and Paul's books of fiction which I have forgotten the names of now. If eckankar is now depending on that dry, uninspiring crap hk writes, eckankar is doomed. There's no way, new people will get hooked on that stuff.

                                              Thank you Prometheus


                                              prometheus wrote:

                                              Hello Janice, Non and All,
                                              Thank you for the kind
                                              words and understanding.
                                              It got me to thinking about
                                              the basis for the whole EK
                                              initiation eligibility screening.

                                              I think that we've all heard
                                              about the importance of
                                              keeping the EK Teachings
                                              "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
                                              must be current on procedures,
                                              and guidelines which will,
                                              also, ensure that they are
                                              able to regurgitate the
                                              approved propaganda.
                                              The initiation eligibility
                                              screenings are to sort out
                                              those who still need more
                                              training or are ready to
                                              advance to the next stage
                                              and take on more responsibilities
                                              with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
                                              Sales Teams.

                                              Plus, the initiation screenings
                                              ensure that Klemp will have
                                              people who are willing to
                                              participate in the promotion
                                              of the organization. It has
                                              nothing to do with one's
                                              spiritual growth. But, sincerity
                                              and believability goes a
                                              long way in convincing others.
                                              However, one can't be too
                                              deluded. One needs to be
                                              believable and this is why
                                              the faithful are the ones most
                                              shocked when they can finally
                                              open their minds to hear
                                              the truth.

                                              Maybe most of the heavy
                                              handed methods, lack of
                                              empathy and compassion,
                                              are rationalizations where
                                              the RESAs are thinking
                                              they are toughening up
                                              and strengthening Soul
                                              while, also, protecting
                                              the Mahanta, supporting
                                              his "Mission," and keeping
                                              the EK Teachings "pure"
                                              and unchangeable over
                                              time.

                                              When taking a second look;
                                              HK has his RESAs confused.
                                              How does Klemp continue
                                              to promote "change" and
                                              is always updating things
                                              while keeping the "original"
                                              EK Teachings by Twitchell
                                              "pure?" The truth is that,
                                              as LEM, Klemp has the
                                              authority to Change and
                                              revisit all EK Dogma and
                                              "update" and revise it
                                              with his own spin.

                                              Therefore, only the current
                                              EK teachings (Guidelines
                                              included) are "pure" according
                                              to what Klemp is suggesting.
                                              Except, the reason why HK
                                              has chosen not to reprint
                                              most of Twitchell's books
                                              is because they are highly
                                              plagiarized versus being
                                              "current" with today's higher
                                              consciousness.

                                              The foundation of Eckankar
                                              is built upon a con and a
                                              hoax and is not even copied
                                              from the highest "truths"
                                              of other religions since these
                                              religions are flawed as well.
                                              Twitchell's books are more
                                              evidence to prove the case
                                              and to show that he was
                                              simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
                                              and a narcissistic wannabe.

                                              Prometheus
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