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Repost from Eckankartruth: A 6th initiate walks away from the cult

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  • ctecvie
    Hi all, this was posted on Eckankartruth on Jan 30, 2001 (and was a repost from a.r.e.): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/message/44 I feel it s a
    Message 1 of 3 , Oct 2, 2005
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      Hi all,

      this was posted on Eckankartruth on Jan 30, 2001 (and was a repost
      from a.r.e.):

      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/message/44

      I feel it's a quite long, but very powerful testimony and might help
      any seekers with questions and doubts.
      Ingrid

      ************
      Hi Folks,
      I did a post a few days ago and just mentioned that I used to be an
      eckist for quite a while......I got so many personal e-mails that I
      thought I better
      just post the answer here instead of carbon copying a bunch of
      replies. The question was
      "Enjoyed your post and agree about not lying about what happen with
      Darwin and others. Here's a web site that gives Darwin's side of the
      story. Don't know for sure, but I'd guess about half of it is true.
      Also, why did you decide to leave eckankar, if you don't mind sharing
      that here?
      Lurk"

      Dear Lurk, and others......
      Allow me to apologize in advance for the length at which I must write
      in order to gliive a comprehensive answer to your question....I know
      it's against good netiquette to post a huge message here, but I don't
      want to do this again, so this time, it better be correct.

      I'm sure that those who follow eckankar and read this will find it
      upsetting.....In fact, If any of you readers out there are now
      following eckankar, there is probably no good reason for you to read
      further here....if you're happy, stay where you are and don't bother
      with the ramblings of one who went another way. Follow your own
      heart and your own way and I guarantee that if you are honest with
      yourself, that eventually you will grow beyond your wildest
      expectations.

      I don't suppose anyone would walk away from something they have been
      dedicated to for 28 years lightly!....And I didn't either.

      I joined eckankar under Paul Twitchell in 1970 and stayed until mid
      1998 or so. I was a 6th initiate and had just about all the jobs in
      the local eckankagionr organization that anyone could have, except
      that I was never an initiator, esa, or resa. As an hi, I did
      recommend others for initiation and it was usually granted to them
      within 2-3 months and on an occasion or two, I was called by the
      resa for information about another chela or 2, regarding possible
      initiations and I thought it might be better for these people to
      wait for a while.....(I really tried to ask myself if they were
      ready and I definitely NEVER thought that I was truly qualified to
      make a determination about anothers spiritual growth). In these
      circumstances, I usually just asked myself if this person was
      balanced, and dedicated to eckankar enough to be a ___(fill in a
      number) initiate.

      I married some people, placed chelas in local positions of authority,
      spoke at seminars, taught satsangs, wrote a ton of articles (much
      shorter than this) and thought I was a lifetime dedicated eckist.
      I have met and shaken hands with Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and
      Harold Klemp.
      I was around when Paul wrote and sent out a letter (early 1971) that
      spoke about a child in training who would be his successor in 10
      years or so...(that letter has been misquoted so many times!) I was
      around when Darwin was named by Gail T...... married Gail T, divorced
      from Gail T., tried to raise the membership fees by 400% and
      failed.....stole a couple of million dollars from eckankar, and got
      fired....I was around when a lot of changes occurred in eckankar and
      I even got a copy of David Lanes book back when it first came out and
      circulated around eck centers all over the country......( this one
      almost sent me away from eckankar).

      I remember when eckankars official title was Eckankar, The Ancient
      Science of Soul Travel.....Later (quite briefly)...Eckankar, A
      spiritual Path....later...Eckankar, The Path of Total
      Awareness.....later Eckankar, The New Age Religion, later, Eckankar,
      the Religion of the Light and Sound of God........I don't know what
      they call it today but it's probably changed again......I think they
      are still trying to find something that will lure the masses, even
      though I still remember sitting in a seminar audience when Paul
      Twitchell said that "Eckankar is an individual pathway and will
      never be for the masses" (probably not in those very exact words),
      and probably his only accurate prophesy!

      I survived a lot of stuff in eckankar and there seemed to always be a
      controversy in eckankar.....always a dynamic change going
      on .....always a new book or "truth" to be revealed at the next
      seminar.......things were constantly changing.... and those new
      books always had a price tag....

      I remember trying to get a consultation with Harold, and
      being told at the consultation desk that it would require a donation
      ( I think it was $200.00 or so back then but I don't remember the
      exact amount)...to get the time with Harold.

      I well remember when eckankar posters used to promise..."Attain
      Mastership "in this life or the next".....(I haven't seen that many
      new masters in the last 28 years though). I remember when we would
      give talks that stressed that "eckankar is definitely not
      a "religion, philosophy etc". That changed a bunch.

      I remember Pauls books and the chapters on the virtues of being a
      "free thinker" and a "cliffhanger"....attitudes that eckankar seems
      to downplay today! I remember when we were told that it is healthy
      to be skeptical.....today eckists seem to be asked to just have
      faith until the truth is revealed......

      I remember Pauls many predictions in "The Eck Yidya" (The small
      paper phamplet from the late 60's, not the bound book that was
      released in 1972); I remember the prediction of the "moon
      plague"....never happened......world wide economic
      depression....never happened... I remember the prediction of the
      Nuclear war which would have a 90% chance of occurring by the middle
      to end of the 1990's.......speaks for itself...... I remember the
      prediction of the catastrophic earthquake to hit California in the
      mid to late 70's....never happened........

      I was once admonished (as an hi) and asked by the resa to stay away
      from the eckankar center for 6 months to balance out). They later
      reviewed their decision after 3 months and I was given another
      initiation within 6 months of that occurrance along with more
      responsibility.

      I watched as Jerry Mulvin (a friend of mine back then) later left
      eckankar and started his own religion......I saw Luis Blooth (very
      popular 8th initiate) go his own way.....and many more.....I saw
      probably hundreds of friends and acquaintances join eckankar.....get
      a few initiations and then leave.....while more would join and stay
      a while and leave......This is still going on today. In fact, I only
      know of a handful of people out of probably almost a thousand people
      that I have personally met in eckankar who are still around now. It's
      membership is very very fluid.

      I remember writing "initiate Reports", little monthly notes to the
      current "god man" that were supposed to be read only by him (at
      first). I remember seeing snippets of my own "Confidential
      Initiate Report' being published in a couple of Harolds H.I. Letters,
      which was a quarterly news rag that went out to H.I's only...for all
      to read, and without my prior consent (back then I would have been
      so proud and pleased by this). I remember when it was announced by
      Harold at a major seminar that the initiate reports were reviewed by
      not Harold himself, but by his "Chosen Ones" who helped him with the
      reports...... I was so gullible that I never did the
      math......harold would have needed a year to spend even 10 minutes
      on each initiate report he could have received in a single month!

      I remember my 3rd Initiation which was held in Sedona, Arizona, on
      eckankars property, where ( I believe she was an 8th initiate) the
      initiator, after having performed the group initiation, went on to
      tell some of us how wonderful it was to drink urine, and to urinate
      on each other as a healing method!....(Yuck) She later died and left
      eckankar title to the property in sedona. I remember Harolds grand
      plan to develop the site in Sedona as an eck retreat complete with
      guest quarters and meeting areas...only the "god man" didn't have
      any way to prophesize that the ground under this land, and that the
      water situation in Sedona, would cause the development to be
      impossible and that the city would fight against the god mans plans
      in this regard.....no rezoning would ever be granted.

      I remember when I was told that eckankars computer system was harolds
      tool for determining when an individual had passed a certain amount
      of time in a certain initiation and should be considered for the next
      initiation....(that's certainly personal spiritual guidance :-).

      I love astronomy. The Hubble Constant is a theory that Edmund
      Hubble worked on for years in an attempt to discover the age of the
      physical universe. Since Hubbles time, many astronomers have tackled
      the problem and just last year, I was privileged to attend a meeting
      where one of the prominent head researchers on this project gave us
      a preview a speech that he would give to President Clinton and the
      National Science Foundation, at the white house, the following week.
      His announcement was that by using Cyphid Variable stars and the
      fluctuations they have, that the age of the physical universe could
      be calculated fairly accurately at 12,000,000,000 to 13,000,000,000
      billion years!

      I wasn't very surprised by that announcement. When I heard it,
      I remembered that back when I was in eckankar, that Paul wrote in the
      Shariyat-ki-sugmad that the physical universe has a life of 4 Yugas
      (time periods) that total 8,640,000 years...Thats only 8 1/2 million
      years....heck, earth is much much older than that....... I
      remember the teaching about Agam Des [note from Ingrid: this should
      be Retz], a supposed city on Venus. Now please understand that
      astronomy has determined that Venus is probably the closest thing
      possible to Hell.....Very high temperatures, 24 hour acid rain, and
      24/7 cloud cover.....not a place for a spiritual city if you ask me.

      I'm still waiting for the invasion from the Jovians (inhabitants of
      Jupiter) that is supposed to come in the middle of this or the next
      century. Jupiter doesn't even have a solid surface so I wonder how
      the Jovians came about to exist there, and what in the heck they
      would want here! But none of that stuff is why I left eckanker.

      An eckist is subtly taught to form justifications for his
      disappointments and for the shortcomings of his teachers and
      masters.......I was a good little eckist, in awe of the H.i's and
      just went along with the company line through almost 3 decades of
      this stuff (I'm embarrassed to mention eckankar today to my friends
      and family and business associates because upon true reflection, it
      is just such hogwash and I had to really be a fool to fall so totally
      for all this stuff and to stay so long)

      Today I feel like eckankar hurt me in many ways and helped me some
      too.....when I joined eckankar, I was certain that I was a lost
      soul, I used drugs (pot & light stuff), and was sure that life
      would lead me nowhere...I was only 18 years old at the
      time......eckankar gave me a new home......and it did help me clean
      up my act and to start focusing on improving my life.

      I met many new friends and still am privileged to call some eckists
      my friends. In fact, my closest friend of almost 30 years was an
      eckist until about a year ago when he told me he had left as
      well..... My real reasons for leaving eckankar didn't have to do
      with hardly anything that eckankar went through, nor with the
      shortcomings of Paul, Darwin, Harold or the non provable existence
      of any of the other named "masters"....nor with anger on my part
      (Harry Klemp loves to label people who leave with that one)......Nor
      with any disagreements with the local eckists (which did happen but
      didn't matter to me).....nor disenchantment with the organization
      (actually I do miss the social interaction with a lot of eckists and
      I definitely do miss being put on a pedestal by the newer eckists),
      and I didn't particularly care then about the charges of plagiarism
      (I never could spell)...

      I left eckankar because it simply didn't work for me and I didn't
      realize that for a very long time. Eckankar and I finally reached a
      point where decades of lies, of half truths, of disappointments,
      finally came to a head. Eckankar lost.

      I did my spiritual exercises daily as much as probably anyone in
      eckankar. I had dreams now and then of spiritual journeys. I
      had my OBE's and once or twice, I saw Paul in dream state. Darwins
      appearances were fewer and I only remember about 4 dreams that I
      had where Harold would appear......this in almost 30 years of
      spiritual exercises... Actually, I remember much more in the way of
      phenomenal experience when I was a child than later, as a member of
      eckankar. After a run of experiences right after I joined eckankar
      it seemed to dry up. Now and then I would have an experience.

      I have far more interesting meditations and dreams today than I did
      when I was locked into eckankars perception of reality. Eckankar
      is so full of subtle do's and don'ts that I honestly feel that it
      slows one down, and actually holds one away from the deeper personal
      truths.

      Over many years it finally dawned upon me that the writings in
      eckankar and the different "masters" talks seemed to stress that the
      physical and astral and even the realm of the mind is "Negative",
      while only the almost unreachable Soul is positive.......this kind
      of thinking tends to leave the student feeling that he himself is
      negative and it definitely discourages spiritual exploration into
      areas of life that are not covered in the eckankar
      writings....things like the psychic sciences, or different
      philosophies, religions, etc.......only eckankar remains as an ok
      thing to explore!

      Such limitations.....They have this nice little borrowed cosmology
      (the Sufi chart of the planes and such) which just exactly fits
      their image of the universe, except that no one who is below the
      line in the middle (soul plane-reachable ONLY through the eck
      masters) is given any credibility. The eckankar universe just got
      too small for me. I needed to explore many things which are not
      covered, or are even discouraged by eckankar.

      I actually became quite bored in life and part of that was that
      nothing was new.....it had all been read and heard and even taught
      by me, many many times......It truely got old, but I wasn't able to
      determine the cause of my mental and spiritual stagnation for
      several years after the symptoms appeared.

      Eckists, and esa's that I spoke with would always fall back on the
      old adages like "It's your karma", "It's just a test for you", "You
      need to do more spiritual exercises" and on and on.....The real
      problem, I was to eventually discover, was that eckankar just
      couldn't provide the tools that would take me into the next
      step.....I had to go on my own way and completely leave behind the
      nice little box of the eckankar universe......I had to grow!

      Since leaving eckankar, I have found a vastly wider realm of inner
      experience. Also a completely new kind of freedom inwardly to
      outwardly explore whatever I darn well feel like without the disdain
      or judgment of others to contend with.  I don't have any
      imagined images of a mahanta telling me to stay away from this or
      that.......It's called Spiritual Freedom and folks, You will
      eventually find that Spiritual Freedom is unavailable to those who
      need a "master" to run their spiritual lives!

      It is a two sided sword though. I found that I couldn't blame
      my life on "karma" anymore.....I couldn't look down at others as
      being less spiritually advanced anymore, and had to learn to treat
      everyone as my teacher and my student as well.....I had to re-invent
      the universe that I live in and without anyone to provide a
      guidebook, I'm free of those limitations and am finally discovering
      what's really out there! Scary and wonderful and challenging.

      Since I left eckankar, I have seen just tons of material about
      eckankar that isn't in the eck books. All this material was
      invisible to me when I was a member of eckankar. Harold Klemp was
      a "god man", not an unbalanced, unhealthy, politically conservative,
      relatively uneducated little guy whose' most responsible position in
      life (before becoming the "Right Hand of God Itself"), was working
      as a proof reader or copy editor or whatever. Now, I see him as a
      little guy with glasses from wisconsin who, with lots of help from a
      very well chosen Board of Directors of a multi-million dollar non-
      profit corporation, has made an easy living off having others
      worship him and pay him for the privilege!

      I learned a lot from eckankar and the best lesson I learned was that
      to find spiritual freedom, you better not embrace eckankar!
      Embrace life instead and find your own way.

      I won't engage in attacks against eckankar or deride the members of
      eckankar because I was once them.....only today I see more, enjoy
      life more and am constantly amazed by the diversity of life. I no
      longer find diversity as a challenge and I no longer feel any need to
      change anyone else's mind about god, or to be some kind of channel to
      lead them to my version of truth.......Spiritual Freedom.

      Eckankar seems to attract the nieve', the lonely, the gullible who
      will blindly accept it's "truths", and those who are generally in
      need......so if this is what you are, you should probably join
      eckankar because it has all the "answers" you will want, for a time.

      The folks I knew in eckankar were, for the most part, very kind,
      loving and friendly people. They seem to have a lack of curiosity
      though and seem to be content in their world where they live in a
      nice little box, with a master who will show them the way.....I feel
      this is sad because the trick is finding your own way and doing it
      in style.

      When you add up all the garbage I've written about above and the many
      many things I didn't bother to write out here, I think you can see
      why I left eckankar.

      Now, in closing, I will be lurking around here now and then and would
      love to hear some of your stories about your eckankar experiences and
      why you are a member of eckankar, or why you might have left
      eckankar or whatever.... Thanks for asking and reading all of this
      Sworddancer

      ************
    • prometheus_973
      Hi Ingrid, This was an interesting old (2001) post by Sworddancer. Eckankar was also known as: ECKANKAR, the Ancient Science of God- Awareness (Difficulties of
      Message 2 of 3 , Oct 2, 2005
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        Hi Ingrid,

        This was an interesting old (2001) post by Sworddancer.

        Eckankar was also known as: ECKANKAR, the Ancient Science of God-
        Awareness (Difficulties of Becoming the Living ECK Master, page
        214).

        The 8th Initiate who gave him his 3rd Initiation in Sedona was Helen
        Frye.

        I disagree with him (Sworddancer) that Eckankar Only
        attracts "nieve'" or "lonely" or "gullible" people that
        are "generally in need!" I was a spiritual seeker who had previously
        rejected religion and cults. Eckankar talks of taking one's time to
        decide for yourself if it works, and this non-agressive vahana
        technique appealed to me. Also, there was the Westernized and
        simplified (condensed), but detailed, explainations and
        interpretations of confusing Eastern concepts, text, and word
        definitions. This also appealed to me at the time. The reasons I
        stayed in for so long, after knowing better, was somewhat connected
        to the friendships that I had made. Two of my closest friends were
        H.I.s, and I had changed my life style to agree with the Eckankar
        dogma. Much of my free time and focus was centered around the local
        Eck Center and with state and local leadership duties. Bringing
        local and statewide Eck chelas together to form a true Eck community
        was one goal I was focused upon. This social/spiritual focus was
        also what kept me in Eckankar longer than I would have been
        otherwise! However, the "Eck community" is just too dysfunctional to
        ever really unite.

        Prometheus


        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "ctecvie"
        <ctecvie@y...> wrote:
        > Hi all,
        >
        > this was posted on Eckankartruth on Jan 30, 2001 (and was a repost
        > from a.r.e.):
        >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eckankartruth/message/44
        >
        > I feel it's a quite long, but very powerful testimony and might
        help
        > any seekers with questions and doubts.
        > Ingrid
        >
        > ************
        > Hi Folks,
        > I did a post a few days ago and just mentioned that I used to be an
        > eckist for quite a while......I got so many personal e-mails that I
        > thought I better
        > just post the answer here instead of carbon copying a bunch of
        > replies. The question was
        > "Enjoyed your post and agree about not lying about what happen with
        > Darwin and others. Here's a web site that gives Darwin's side of
        the
        > story. Don't know for sure, but I'd guess about half of it is true.
        > Also, why did you decide to leave eckankar, if you don't mind
        sharing
        > that here?
        > Lurk"
        >
        > Dear Lurk, and others......
        > Allow me to apologize in advance for the length at which I must
        write
        > in order to gliive a comprehensive answer to your question....I
        know
        > it's against good netiquette to post a huge message here, but I
        don't
        > want to do this again, so this time, it better be correct.
        >
        > I'm sure that those who follow eckankar and read this will find it
        > upsetting.....In fact, If any of you readers out there are now
        > following eckankar, there is probably no good reason for you to
        read
        > further here....if you're happy, stay where you are and don't
        bother
        > with the ramblings of one who went another way. Follow your own
        > heart and your own way and I guarantee that if you are honest with
        > yourself, that eventually you will grow beyond your wildest
        > expectations.
        >
        > I don't suppose anyone would walk away from something they have
        been
        > dedicated to for 28 years lightly!....And I didn't either.
        >
        > I joined eckankar under Paul Twitchell in 1970 and stayed until mid
        > 1998 or so. I was a 6th initiate and had just about all the jobs
        in
        > the local eckankagionr organization that anyone could have, except
        > that I was never an initiator, esa, or resa. As an hi, I did
        > recommend others for initiation and it was usually granted to them
        > within 2-3 months and on an occasion or two, I was called by the
        > resa for information about another chela or 2, regarding possible
        > initiations and I thought it might be better for these people to
        > wait for a while.....(I really tried to ask myself if they were
        > ready and I definitely NEVER thought that I was truly qualified to
        > make a determination about anothers spiritual growth). In these
        > circumstances, I usually just asked myself if this person was
        > balanced, and dedicated to eckankar enough to be a ___(fill in a
        > number) initiate.
        >
        > I married some people, placed chelas in local positions of
        authority,
        > spoke at seminars, taught satsangs, wrote a ton of articles (much
        > shorter than this) and thought I was a lifetime dedicated eckist.
        > I have met and shaken hands with Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and
        > Harold Klemp.
        > I was around when Paul wrote and sent out a letter (early 1971)
        that
        > spoke about a child in training who would be his successor in 10
        > years or so...(that letter has been misquoted so many times!) I
        was
        > around when Darwin was named by Gail T...... married Gail T,
        divorced
        > from Gail T., tried to raise the membership fees by 400% and
        > failed.....stole a couple of million dollars from eckankar, and got
        > fired....I was around when a lot of changes occurred in eckankar
        and
        > I even got a copy of David Lanes book back when it first came out
        and
        > circulated around eck centers all over the country......( this one
        > almost sent me away from eckankar).
        >
        > I remember when eckankars official title was Eckankar, The Ancient
        > Science of Soul Travel.....Later (quite briefly)...Eckankar, A
        > spiritual Path....later...Eckankar, The Path of Total
        > Awareness.....later Eckankar, The New Age Religion, later,
        Eckankar,
        > the Religion of the Light and Sound of God........I don't know
        what
        > they call it today but it's probably changed again......I think
        they
        > are still trying to find something that will lure the masses, even
        > though I still remember sitting in a seminar audience when Paul
        > Twitchell said that "Eckankar is an individual pathway and will
        > never be for the masses" (probably not in those very exact words),
        > and probably his only accurate prophesy!
        >
        > I survived a lot of stuff in eckankar and there seemed to always
        be a
        > controversy in eckankar.....always a dynamic change going
        > on .....always a new book or "truth" to be revealed at the next
        > seminar.......things were constantly changing.... and those new
        > books always had a price tag....
        >
        > I remember trying to get a consultation with Harold, and
        > being told at the consultation desk that it would require a
        donation
        > ( I think it was $200.00 or so back then but I don't remember the
        > exact amount)...to get the time with Harold.
        >
        > I well remember when eckankar posters used to promise..."Attain
        > Mastership "in this life or the next".....(I haven't seen that
        many
        > new masters in the last 28 years though). I remember when we would
        > give talks that stressed that "eckankar is definitely not
        > a "religion, philosophy etc". That changed a bunch.
        >
        > I remember Pauls books and the chapters on the virtues of being a
        > "free thinker" and a "cliffhanger"....attitudes that eckankar
        seems
        > to downplay today! I remember when we were told that it is healthy
        > to be skeptical.....today eckists seem to be asked to just have
        > faith until the truth is revealed......
        >
        > I remember Pauls many predictions in "The Eck Yidya" (The small
        > paper phamplet from the late 60's, not the bound book that was
        > released in 1972); I remember the prediction of the "moon
        > plague"....never happened......world wide economic
        > depression....never happened... I remember the prediction of the
        > Nuclear war which would have a 90% chance of occurring by the
        middle
        > to end of the 1990's.......speaks for itself...... I remember the
        > prediction of the catastrophic earthquake to hit California in the
        > mid to late 70's....never happened........
        >
        > I was once admonished (as an hi) and asked by the resa to stay away
        > from the eckankar center for 6 months to balance out). They later
        > reviewed their decision after 3 months and I was given another
        > initiation within 6 months of that occurrance along with more
        > responsibility.
        >
        > I watched as Jerry Mulvin (a friend of mine back then) later left
        > eckankar and started his own religion......I saw Luis Blooth (very
        > popular 8th initiate) go his own way.....and many more.....I saw
        > probably hundreds of friends and acquaintances join
        eckankar.....get
        > a few initiations and then leave.....while more would join and
        stay
        > a while and leave......This is still going on today. In fact, I
        only
        > know of a handful of people out of probably almost a thousand
        people
        > that I have personally met in eckankar who are still around now.
        It's
        > membership is very very fluid.
        >
        > I remember writing "initiate Reports", little monthly notes to the
        > current "god man" that were supposed to be read only by him (at
        > first). I remember seeing snippets of my own "Confidential
        > Initiate Report' being published in a couple of Harolds H.I.
        Letters,
        > which was a quarterly news rag that went out to H.I's only...for
        all
        > to read, and without my prior consent (back then I would have been
        > so proud and pleased by this). I remember when it was announced by
        > Harold at a major seminar that the initiate reports were reviewed
        by
        > not Harold himself, but by his "Chosen Ones" who helped him with
        the
        > reports...... I was so gullible that I never did the
        > math......harold would have needed a year to spend even 10 minutes
        > on each initiate report he could have received in a single month!
        >
        > I remember my 3rd Initiation which was held in Sedona, Arizona, on
        > eckankars property, where ( I believe she was an 8th initiate) the
        > initiator, after having performed the group initiation, went on to
        > tell some of us how wonderful it was to drink urine, and to
        urinate
        > on each other as a healing method!....(Yuck) She later died and
        left
        > eckankar title to the property in sedona. I remember Harolds grand
        > plan to develop the site in Sedona as an eck retreat complete with
        > guest quarters and meeting areas...only the "god man" didn't have
        > any way to prophesize that the ground under this land, and that
        the
        > water situation in Sedona, would cause the development to be
        > impossible and that the city would fight against the god mans
        plans
        > in this regard.....no rezoning would ever be granted.
        >
        > I remember when I was told that eckankars computer system was
        harolds
        > tool for determining when an individual had passed a certain
        amount
        > of time in a certain initiation and should be considered for the
        next
        > initiation....(that's certainly personal spiritual guidance :-).
        >
        > I love astronomy. The Hubble Constant is a theory that Edmund
        > Hubble worked on for years in an attempt to discover the age of the
        > physical universe. Since Hubbles time, many astronomers have
        tackled
        > the problem and just last year, I was privileged to attend a
        meeting
        > where one of the prominent head researchers on this project gave
        us
        > a preview a speech that he would give to President Clinton and the
        > National Science Foundation, at the white house, the following
        week.
        > His announcement was that by using Cyphid Variable stars and the
        > fluctuations they have, that the age of the physical universe
        could
        > be calculated fairly accurately at 12,000,000,000 to
        13,000,000,000
        > billion years!
        >
        > I wasn't very surprised by that announcement. When I heard it,
        > I remembered that back when I was in eckankar, that Paul wrote in
        the
        > Shariyat-ki-sugmad that the physical universe has a life of 4 Yugas
        > (time periods) that total 8,640,000 years...Thats only 8 1/2
        million
        > years....heck, earth is much much older than that....... I
        > remember the teaching about Agam Des [note from Ingrid: this
        should
        > be Retz], a supposed city on Venus. Now please understand that
        > astronomy has determined that Venus is probably the closest thing
        > possible to Hell.....Very high temperatures, 24 hour acid rain,
        and
        > 24/7 cloud cover.....not a place for a spiritual city if you ask
        me.
        >
        > I'm still waiting for the invasion from the Jovians (inhabitants of
        > Jupiter) that is supposed to come in the middle of this or the next
        > century. Jupiter doesn't even have a solid surface so I wonder how
        > the Jovians came about to exist there, and what in the heck they
        > would want here! But none of that stuff is why I left eckanker.
        >
        > An eckist is subtly taught to form justifications for his
        > disappointments and for the shortcomings of his teachers and
        > masters.......I was a good little eckist, in awe of the H.i's and
        > just went along with the company line through almost 3 decades of
        > this stuff (I'm embarrassed to mention eckankar today to my friends
        > and family and business associates because upon true reflection,
        it
        > is just such hogwash and I had to really be a fool to fall so
        totally
        > for all this stuff and to stay so long)
        >
        > Today I feel like eckankar hurt me in many ways and helped me some
        > too.....when I joined eckankar, I was certain that I was a lost
        > soul, I used drugs (pot & light stuff), and was sure that life
        > would lead me nowhere...I was only 18 years old at the
        > time......eckankar gave me a new home......and it did help me
        clean
        > up my act and to start focusing on improving my life.
        >
        > I met many new friends and still am privileged to call some
        eckists
        > my friends. In fact, my closest friend of almost 30 years was an
        > eckist until about a year ago when he told me he had left as
        > well..... My real reasons for leaving eckankar didn't have to do
        > with hardly anything that eckankar went through, nor with the
        > shortcomings of Paul, Darwin, Harold or the non provable existence
        > of any of the other named "masters"....nor with anger on my part
        > (Harry Klemp loves to label people who leave with that
        one)......Nor
        > with any disagreements with the local eckists (which did happen
        but
        > didn't matter to me).....nor disenchantment with the organization
        > (actually I do miss the social interaction with a lot of eckists
        and
        > I definitely do miss being put on a pedestal by the newer
        eckists),
        > and I didn't particularly care then about the charges of
        plagiarism
        > (I never could spell)...
        >
        > I left eckankar because it simply didn't work for me and I didn't
        > realize that for a very long time. Eckankar and I finally reached
        a
        > point where decades of lies, of half truths, of disappointments,
        > finally came to a head. Eckankar lost.
        >
        > I did my spiritual exercises daily as much as probably anyone in
        > eckankar. I had dreams now and then of spiritual journeys. I
        > had my OBE's and once or twice, I saw Paul in dream state. Darwins
        > appearances were fewer and I only remember about 4 dreams that I
        > had where Harold would appear......this in almost 30 years of
        > spiritual exercises... Actually, I remember much more in the way of
        > phenomenal experience when I was a child than later, as a member of
        > eckankar. After a run of experiences right after I joined eckankar
        > it seemed to dry up. Now and then I would have an experience.
        >
        > I have far more interesting meditations and dreams today than I did
        > when I was locked into eckankars perception of reality. Eckankar
        > is so full of subtle do's and don'ts that I honestly feel that it
        > slows one down, and actually holds one away from the deeper
        personal
        > truths.
        >
        > Over many years it finally dawned upon me that the writings in
        > eckankar and the different "masters" talks seemed to stress that
        the
        > physical and astral and even the realm of the mind is "Negative",
        > while only the almost unreachable Soul is positive.......this kind
        > of thinking tends to leave the student feeling that he himself is
        > negative and it definitely discourages spiritual exploration into
        > areas of life that are not covered in the eckankar
        > writings....things like the psychic sciences, or different
        > philosophies, religions, etc.......only eckankar remains as an ok
        > thing to explore!
        >
        > Such limitations.....They have this nice little borrowed cosmology
        > (the Sufi chart of the planes and such) which just exactly fits
        > their image of the universe, except that no one who is below the
        > line in the middle (soul plane-reachable ONLY through the eck
        > masters) is given any credibility. The eckankar universe just got
        > too small for me. I needed to explore many things which are not
        > covered, or are even discouraged by eckankar.
        >
        > I actually became quite bored in life and part of that was that
        > nothing was new.....it had all been read and heard and even taught
        > by me, many many times......It truely got old, but I wasn't able
        to
        > determine the cause of my mental and spiritual stagnation for
        > several years after the symptoms appeared.
        >
        > Eckists, and esa's that I spoke with would always fall back on the
        > old adages like "It's your karma", "It's just a test for
        you", "You
        > need to do more spiritual exercises" and on and on.....The real
        > problem, I was to eventually discover, was that eckankar just
        > couldn't provide the tools that would take me into the next
        > step.....I had to go on my own way and completely leave behind the
        > nice little box of the eckankar universe......I had to grow!
        >
        > Since leaving eckankar, I have found a vastly wider realm of inner
        > experience. Also a completely new kind of freedom inwardly to
        > outwardly explore whatever I darn well feel like without the
        disdain
        > or judgment of others to contend with.  I don't have any
        > imagined images of a mahanta telling me to stay away from this or
        > that.......It's called Spiritual Freedom and folks, You will
        > eventually find that Spiritual Freedom is unavailable to those who
        > need a "master" to run their spiritual lives!
        >
        > It is a two sided sword though. I found that I couldn't blame
        > my life on "karma" anymore.....I couldn't look down at others as
        > being less spiritually advanced anymore, and had to learn to treat
        > everyone as my teacher and my student as well.....I had to re-
        invent
        > the universe that I live in and without anyone to provide a
        > guidebook, I'm free of those limitations and am finally
        discovering
        > what's really out there! Scary and wonderful and challenging.
        >
        > Since I left eckankar, I have seen just tons of material about
        > eckankar that isn't in the eck books. All this material was
        > invisible to me when I was a member of eckankar. Harold Klemp was
        > a "god man", not an unbalanced, unhealthy, politically
        conservative,
        > relatively uneducated little guy whose' most responsible position
        in
        > life (before becoming the "Right Hand of God Itself"), was working
        > as a proof reader or copy editor or whatever. Now, I see him as a
        > little guy with glasses from wisconsin who, with lots of help from
        a
        > very well chosen Board of Directors of a multi-million dollar non-
        > profit corporation, has made an easy living off having others
        > worship him and pay him for the privilege!
        >
        > I learned a lot from eckankar and the best lesson I learned was
        that
        > to find spiritual freedom, you better not embrace eckankar!
        > Embrace life instead and find your own way.
        >
        > I won't engage in attacks against eckankar or deride the members of
        > eckankar because I was once them.....only today I see more, enjoy
        > life more and am constantly amazed by the diversity of life. I no
        > longer find diversity as a challenge and I no longer feel any need
        to
        > change anyone else's mind about god, or to be some kind of channel
        to
        > lead them to my version of truth.......Spiritual Freedom.
        >
        > Eckankar seems to attract the nieve', the lonely, the gullible who
        > will blindly accept it's "truths", and those who are generally in
        > need......so if this is what you are, you should probably join
        > eckankar because it has all the "answers" you will want, for a
        time.
        >
        > The folks I knew in eckankar were, for the most part, very kind,
        > loving and friendly people. They seem to have a lack of curiosity
        > though and seem to be content in their world where they live in a
        > nice little box, with a master who will show them the way.....I
        feel
        > this is sad because the trick is finding your own way and doing it
        > in style.
        >
        > When you add up all the garbage I've written about above and the
        many
        > many things I didn't bother to write out here, I think you can see
        > why I left eckankar.
        >
        > Now, in closing, I will be lurking around here now and then and
        would
        > love to hear some of your stories about your eckankar experiences
        and
        > why you are a member of eckankar, or why you might have left
        > eckankar or whatever.... Thanks for asking and reading all of this
        > Sworddancer
        >
        > ************
      • ctecvie
        Hello Prometheus, ... I suspected that this was her, but wasn t sure! ... You are right, Prometheus. But I have seen many of those described above in Eckankar,
        Message 3 of 3 , Oct 2, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Prometheus,

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
          > Hi Ingrid,
          >
          > This was an interesting old (2001) post by Sworddancer.
          >
          > Eckankar was also known as: ECKANKAR, the Ancient Science of God-
          > Awareness (Difficulties of Becoming the Living ECK Master, page
          > 214).
          >
          > The 8th Initiate who gave him his 3rd Initiation in Sedona was
          >Helen
          > Frye.

          I suspected that this was her, but wasn't sure!
          >
          > I disagree with him (Sworddancer) that Eckankar Only
          > attracts "nieve'" or "lonely" or "gullible" people that
          > are "generally in need!"

          You are right, Prometheus. But I have seen many of those described
          above in Eckankar, too. I think Eckankar attracts a lot of those
          people as well, but not only of course.

          >I was a spiritual seeker who had previously
          > rejected religion and cults. Eckankar talks of taking one's time
          >to
          > decide for yourself if it works, and this non-agressive vahana
          > technique appealed to me. Also, there was the Westernized and
          > simplified (condensed), but detailed, explainations and
          > interpretations of confusing Eastern concepts, text, and word
          > definitions. This also appealed to me at the time.

          Yes, the way of telling seekers that they can prove it themselves
          attracts as well! It's a very clever trap, and many smart people
          walk into that trap. Who wouldn't like to join a path where you can
          prove everything for yourself! This explains, in my view, why so
          many intelligent people are in the cult.

          >The reasons I
          > stayed in for so long, after knowing better, was somewhat
          >connected
          > to the friendships that I had made. Two of my closest friends were
          > H.I.s, and I had changed my life style to agree with the Eckankar
          > dogma. Much of my free time and focus was centered around the
          >local
          > Eck Center and with state and local leadership duties. Bringing
          > local and statewide Eck chelas together to form a true Eck
          >community
          > was one goal I was focused upon.

          I think that lots of Eckists would miss the community, so they stay
          on even if they have doubts. We did that, too! My husband discovered
          David Lane many years ago but decided to stay, also because I was a
          convinced Eckist at the time and leaving would certainly have caused
          problems. I remember telling him that he shouldn't focus on those
          negative things.

          And of course there are also people who don't have anything else
          than this community and the mahanta, and they would never leave. In
          those cases, it would be really cruel to take the path from them.

          >This social/spiritual focus was
          > also what kept me in Eckankar longer than I would have been
          > otherwise! However, the "Eck community" is just too dysfunctional
          >to
          > ever really unite.

          Yes, you are right. Just too dysfunctional, and we always wondered
          why ... And, did you notice: Eckankar keeps saying that the meetings
          are *not* for social but solely for spiritual reasons! They look
          down on other churches and religions for their social aspects! Talk
          about deluded ... :-)

          Ingrid
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