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Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

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  • Non
    It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I don t really get why the H.I. s don t just implode. The klempster has nothing
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 12, 2012
      It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

      Non ;)

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello All,
      > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
      > Letter I've read that
      > Klemp still needs to
      > update his Guidelines
      > for the H.I.s in the
      > field and chastise
      > those who are slow
      > to get with the program.
      >
      > Many long-time H.I.s
      > want the freedom
      > of Soul to be more
      > individualistic,
      > spontaneous, and
      > creative by thinking
      > they (Soul) can operate
      > outside-of-the-box,
      > thus, being channels
      > for the ECK. Klemp
      > has previously stated
      > that he's imperfect,
      > but that's not the case
      > with the ECK, correct?
      >
      > Why, then, shouldn't
      > their current (Present)
      > Inner EK Guidance be
      > followed versus that
      > of outer set-in-stone
      > ESC Guidelines printed
      > in the Past and approved
      > by a committee of imperfect
      > people on a plane ruled
      > by the KAL?
      >
      > H.I.s still haven't learned
      > that it doesn't work
      > that way in Klemp's
      > version of ECKankar.
      > It's a hierarchy where
      > everything is spelled
      > out and controlled
      > by him and his secret
      > RESA police and that
      > all field work must be
      > approved of first and
      > follow the current
      > Guidelines.
      >
      > Many inexperienced
      > EKists like the idea of
      > being told how to do
      > this or that and what
      > approved books to use
      > and what to say and
      > other details to make
      > the promotion of
      > Eckankar easier.
      >
      > But the real point the
      > ESC (Klemp) is making
      > is to have EK PR more
      > consistent and cookie
      > cutter looking/sounding
      > for the public.
      >
      > Plus, the EK Guidelines
      > are like following a
      > recipe set-in-stone
      > that disregards individual
      > or regional tastes and
      > disallows any additions
      > or omissions of other
      > ingredients, methods,
      > and/or spices.
      >
      > Klemp's foretold admonishments
      > are about H.I.s resisting
      > change. They "rock the
      > boat" out of "fear" and
      > that's "it's all about fear."
      > That "they huddle in packs"
      > and "reinforce in each other
      > a group's opposition to
      > anything new." Strange
      > that Klemp's H.I.s are
      > subject to fear since he's
      > supposed to protect them!
      >
      > However, the real 'change'
      > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
      > Klemp's nonsense and
      > heavy handed control tactics.
      > Many H.I.s, however, chose
      > the Freedom of Soul versus
      > being bound to dogma.
      > HK side-steps delivering
      > on his promises of protection
      > and never has anything
      > profound to share. And,
      > where are those Higher
      > Initiations that are, supposedly,
      > yardsticks in measuring
      > Consciousness and Spiritual
      > Growth? Klemp is playing
      > the long-con and is, thus,
      > stingy and self-serving.
      >
      > Harold goes on to say that
      > these H.I.s are "obstructions
      > on the path to God instead
      > of being stepping stones."
      > Apparently, being creative
      > and spontaneous and
      > following "Inner Nudges"
      > and/or "Signs" are not
      > permitted if it conflicts
      > with the LEM's outer,
      > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
      >
      > The LEM states that, "We
      > are here to learn." However,
      > what is it that Klemp "learns"
      > from others since he never
      > listens? He's the Top goD
      > and doesn't partake in
      > two-way dialogues with
      > those under his authority.
      >
      > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
      > and unloving as he continues
      > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
      > believe that if they sit still
      > and breathe only enough to
      > sustain life that they may
      > well dodge the lightning
      > strikes of irksome change."
      > Is that a threat? HK sounds
      > like KAL! However, by doing
      > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
      > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
      > Don't EKists still die of all
      > sorts of illnesses and situations
      > that could have be averted
      > if they had gotten proper
      > and immediate care? Sure!
      > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
      > ECKists and his veiled threats
      > are meaningless... unless
      > you've given this Black
      > Magician power over you!
      >
      > But, it seems that HK
      > has something else stuck
      > in his craw. It seems to
      > me that Klemp doesn't
      > like his 7ths just sitting
      > still and Contemplating
      > or HUing, and enjoying
      > life. But why shouldn't
      > they take it easy after
      > 40 years of doing PR
      > work for Eckankar!
      >
      > So, what does Klemp
      > the All compassionate,
      > loving, positive, and
      > empathetic icon of EK
      > conclude?
      >
      > "An H.I. who blatantly
      > refuses to adhere to
      > the ECK Guidelines
      > needs to be addressed
      > on the issues." Hmmmm.
      > I wonder what that
      > really means? Well,
      > unless you're already
      > a 7th you can kiss that
      > next initiation good-bye
      > for like 10-20 years!
      >
      > Klemp continues to say,
      > "These are big stakes!
      > Continued refusal means
      > it's time for a replacement
      > to step in. A change is
      > due. Change. isn't it
      > funny how we have come
      > full circle?" No! It's not
      > really funny. Klemp
      > abuses the concept
      > of "change" and makes
      > it into a misnomer.
      >
      > What "changes" are there
      > in Eckankar? The same
      > old things are merely
      > revisited, updated, dusted
      > off and made to seem
      > "new." It's all a facade,
      > smoke and mirrors, and
      > a game of pretend by
      > creating brightly colored
      > straws to grab at and
      > cling to when drowning.
      >
      > Too bad that EKists are
      > so deluded and needy
      > and aren't able to read
      > between the lines and
      > see the real truth behind
      > Klemp's words and methods.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Non eckchains and All, What has me ROFLMAO is that Klemp has enough of a problem that he used it in the ASK The MASTER section of the H.I. Letter! And,
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 12, 2012
        Hello Non eckchains and All,
        What has me ROFLMAO is
        that Klemp has enough of
        a problem that he used it
        in the ASK The MASTER
        section of the H.I. Letter!
        And, it was the only question!
        They had, supposedly, an
        H.I. write-in and point out
        the problem. No name given.

        I remember when I had
        to deal with some older
        H.I.s (former RESAs) in
        coordinator and director
        positions and it was
        impossible to get this
        one to follow the Guidelines
        on EK Worship Services
        (EWS). Many long-time
        H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
        Guidelines and my
        RESA turned a blind-
        eye to it all. We had
        so many former RESAs
        in volunteer positions
        that it was impossible
        to get them on the
        same page and to follow
        procedures. I think
        that some were just
        burned out and tired
        of Klemp's B.S. but
        didn't want to leave.
        Maybe they had too
        many friendships to
        lose. Plus, let's face
        it. A lot of these people
        are losers in the real
        world but are big shots
        in Eckankar. Those
        Higher Initiations are
        a big deal to the ego!

        Prometheus


        "Non" eckchains wrote:
        It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
        don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
        offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
        over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
        even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

        Non ;)

        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
        > Letter I've read that
        > Klemp still needs to
        > update his Guidelines
        > for the H.I.s in the
        > field and chastise
        > those who are slow
        > to get with the program.
        >
        > Many long-time H.I.s
        > want the freedom
        > of Soul to be more
        > individualistic,
        > spontaneous, and
        > creative by thinking
        > they (Soul) can operate
        > outside-of-the-box,
        > thus, being channels
        > for the ECK. Klemp
        > has previously stated
        > that he's imperfect,
        > but that's not the case
        > with the ECK, correct?
        >
        > Why, then, shouldn't
        > their current (Present)
        > Inner EK Guidance be
        > followed versus that
        > of outer set-in-stone
        > ESC Guidelines printed
        > in the Past and approved
        > by a committee of imperfect
        > people on a plane ruled
        > by the KAL?
        >
        > H.I.s still haven't learned
        > that freedom of expression
        > doesn't work in Klemp's
        > version of ECKankar.
        > It's a hierarchy where
        > everything is spelled
        > out and controlled
        > by him and his secret
        > RESA police, plus, all
        > field work must be
        > approved via the
        > current Guidelines.
        >
        > Many inexperienced
        > EKists like the idea of
        > being told how to do
        > this or that and what
        > approved books to use
        > and what to say and
        > other details to make
        > the promotion of
        > Eckankar easier.
        >
        > But the real point the
        > ESC (Klemp) is making
        > is to have EK PR more
        > consistent and cookie
        > cutter looking/sounding
        > for the public.
        >
        > Plus, the EK Guidelines
        > are like following a
        > recipe set-in-stone
        > that disregards individual
        > or regional tastes and
        > disallows any additions
        > or omissions of other
        > ingredients, methods,
        > and/or spices.
        >
        > Klemp's foretold admonishments
        > are about H.I.s resisting
        > change. He says they "rock
        > the boat" out of "fear" and
        > that "it's all about fear."
        > Also, "they huddle in packs"
        > and "reinforce in each other
        > a group's opposition to
        > anything new." Strange
        > that Klemp's H.I.s are
        > subject to fear since he's
        > supposed to protect them!
        > This is how the KAL works.
        > Klemp is his agent.
        >
        > However, the real 'change'
        > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
        > Klemp's nonsense and
        > heavy handed control tactics.
        > Many H.I.s, however, chose
        > the Freedom of Soul versus
        > being bound to dogma.
        > HK side-steps delivering
        > on his promises of protection
        > and never has anything
        > profound to share. And,
        > where are those Higher
        > Initiations that are, supposedly,
        > yardsticks in measuring
        > Consciousness and Spiritual
        > Growth? Klemp is playing
        > the long-con and is, thus,
        > stingy and self-serving.
        >
        > Harold goes on to say that
        > these H.I.s are "obstructions
        > on the path to God instead
        > of being stepping stones."
        > Apparently, being creative
        > and spontaneous and
        > following "Inner Nudges"
        > and/or "Signs" are not
        > permitted if it conflicts
        > with the LEM's outer,
        > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
        >
        > The LEM states that, "We
        > are here to learn." However,
        > what is it that Klemp "learns"
        > from others since he never
        > listens? He's the Top goD
        > and doesn't partake in
        > two-way dialogues with
        > those under his authority.
        >
        > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
        > and unloving as he continues
        > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
        > believe that if they sit still
        > and breathe only enough to
        > sustain life that they may
        > well dodge the lightning
        > strikes of irksome change."
        > Is that a threat? HK sounds
        > like KAL! However, by doing
        > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
        > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
        > Don't EKists still die of all
        > sorts of illnesses and situations
        > that could have be averted
        > if they had gotten proper
        > and immediate care? Sure!
        > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
        > ECKists and his veiled threats
        > are meaningless... unless
        > you've given this Black
        > Magician power over you!
        >
        > But, it seems that HK
        > has something else stuck
        > in his craw. It seems to
        > me that Klemp doesn't
        > like his 7ths just sitting
        > still and Contemplating
        > or HUing, and enjoying
        > life. But why shouldn't
        > they take it easy after
        > 40 years of doing PR
        > work for Eckankar!
        >
        > So, what does Klemp
        > the All compassionate,
        > loving, positive, and
        > empathetic icon of EK
        > conclude?
        >
        > "An H.I. who blatantly
        > refuses to adhere to
        > the ECK Guidelines
        > needs to be addressed
        > on the issues." Hmmmm.
        > I wonder what that
        > really means? Well,
        > unless you're already
        > a 7th you can kiss that
        > next initiation good-bye
        > for like 10-20 years!
        >
        > Klemp continues to say,
        > "These are big stakes!
        > Continued refusal means
        > it's time for a replacement
        > to step in. A change is
        > due. Change. isn't it
        > funny how we have come
        > full circle?" No! It's not
        > really funny. Klemp
        > abuses the concept
        > of "change" and makes
        > it into a misnomer.
        >
        > What "changes" are there
        > in Eckankar? The same
        > old things are merely
        > revisited, updated, dusted
        > off and made to seem
        > "new." It's all a facade,
        > smoke and mirrors, and
        > a game of pretend by
        > creating brightly colored
        > straws to grab at and
        > cling to when drowning.
        >
        > Too bad that EKists are
        > so deluded and needy
        > and aren't able to read
        > between the lines and
        > see the real truth behind
        > Klemp's words and methods.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • Janice Pfeiffer
        Thank all of you for the interesting reading.  I think it would be cool if klemp keeps tightening the screws.  Hopefully, it will only drive more away.  So
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
          Thank all of you for the interesting reading.  I think it would be cool if klemp keeps tightening the screws.  Hopefully, it will only drive more away.  So many of you had a lot more time than I did in eckankar.  I really had a hard time dealing with HI attitudes from day one.  Reading what you have to say explains a lot of things for me.  I appreciate it very much.   

          --- On Thu, 12/13/12, Non <eckchains@...> wrote:

          From: Non <eckchains@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 5:48 AM

           
          It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

          Non ;)

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello All,
          > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
          > Letter I've read that
          > Klemp still needs to
          > update his Guidelines
          > for the H.I.s in the
          > field and chastise
          > those who are slow
          > to get with the program.
          >
          > Many long-time H.I.s
          > want the freedom
          > of Soul to be more
          > individualistic,
          > spontaneous, and
          > creative by thinking
          > they (Soul) can operate
          > outside-of-the-box,
          > thus, being channels
          > for the ECK. Klemp
          > has previously stated
          > that he's imperfect,
          > but that's not the case
          > with the ECK, correct?
          >
          > Why, then, shouldn't
          > their current (Present)
          > Inner EK Guidance be
          > followed versus that
          > of outer set-in-stone
          > ESC Guidelines printed
          > in the Past and approved
          > by a committee of imperfect
          > people on a plane ruled
          > by the KAL?
          >
          > H.I.s still haven't learned
          > that it doesn't work
          > that way in Klemp's
          > version of ECKankar.
          > It's a hierarchy where
          > everything is spelled
          > out and controlled
          > by him and his secret
          > RESA police and that
          > all field work must be
          > approved of first and
          > follow the current
          > Guidelines.
          >
          > Many inexperienced
          > EKists like the idea of
          > being told how to do
          > this or that and what
          > approved books to use
          > and what to say and
          > other details to make
          > the promotion of
          > Eckankar easier.
          >
          > But the real point the
          > ESC (Klemp) is making
          > is to have EK PR more
          > consistent and cookie
          > cutter looking/sounding
          > for the public.
          >
          > Plus, the EK Guidelines
          > are like following a
          > recipe set-in-stone
          > that disregards individual
          > or regional tastes and
          > disallows any additions
          > or omissions of other
          > ingredients, methods,
          > and/or spices.
          >
          > Klemp's foretold admonishments
          > are about H.I.s resisting
          > change. They "rock the
          > boat" out of "fear" and
          > that's "it's all about fear."
          > That "they huddle in packs"
          > and "reinforce in each other
          > a group's opposition to
          > anything new." Strange
          > that Klemp's H.I.s are
          > subject to fear since he's
          > supposed to protect them!
          >
          > However, the real 'change'
          > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
          > Klemp's nonsense and
          > heavy handed control tactics.
          > Many H.I.s, however, chose
          > the Freedom of Soul versus
          > being bound to dogma.
          > HK side-steps delivering
          > on his promises of protection
          > and never has anything
          > profound to share. And,
          > where are those Higher
          > Initiations that are, supposedly,
          > yardsticks in measuring
          > Consciousness and Spiritual
          > Growth? Klemp is playing
          > the long-con and is, thus,
          > stingy and self-serving.
          >
          > Harold goes on to say that
          > these H.I.s are "obstructions
          > on the path to God instead
          > of being stepping stones."
          > Apparently, being creative
          > and spontaneous and
          > following "Inner Nudges"
          > and/or "Signs" are not
          > permitted if it conflicts
          > with the LEM's outer,
          > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
          >
          > The LEM states that, "We
          > are here to learn." However,
          > what is it that Klemp "learns"
          > from others since he never
          > listens? He's the Top goD
          > and doesn't partake in
          > two-way dialogues with
          > those under his authority.
          >
          > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
          > and unloving as he continues
          > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
          > believe that if they sit still
          > and breathe only enough to
          > sustain life that they may
          > well dodge the lightning
          > strikes of irksome change."
          > Is that a threat? HK sounds
          > like KAL! However, by doing
          > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
          > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
          > Don't EKists still die of all
          > sorts of illnesses and situations
          > that could have be averted
          > if they had gotten proper
          > and immediate care? Sure!
          > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
          > ECKists and his veiled threats
          > are meaningless... unless
          > you've given this Black
          > Magician power over you!
          >
          > But, it seems that HK
          > has something else stuck
          > in his craw. It seems to
          > me that Klemp doesn't
          > like his 7ths just sitting
          > still and Contemplating
          > or HUing, and enjoying
          > life. But why shouldn't
          > they take it easy after
          > 40 years of doing PR
          > work for Eckankar!
          >
          > So, what does Klemp
          > the All compassionate,
          > loving, positive, and
          > empathetic icon of EK
          > conclude?
          >
          > "An H.I. who blatantly
          > refuses to adhere to
          > the ECK Guidelines
          > needs to be addressed
          > on the issues." Hmmmm.
          > I wonder what that
          > really means? Well,
          > unless you're already
          > a 7th you can kiss that
          > next initiation good-bye
          > for like 10-20 years!
          >
          > Klemp continues to say,
          > "These are big stakes!
          > Continued refusal means
          > it's time for a replacement
          > to step in. A change is
          > due. Change. isn't it
          > funny how we have come
          > full circle?" No! It's not
          > really funny. Klemp
          > abuses the concept
          > of "change" and makes
          > it into a misnomer.
          >
          > What "changes" are there
          > in Eckankar? The same
          > old things are merely
          > revisited, updated, dusted
          > off and made to seem
          > "new." It's all a facade,
          > smoke and mirrors, and
          > a game of pretend by
          > creating brightly colored
          > straws to grab at and
          > cling to when drowning.
          >
          > Too bad that EKists are
          > so deluded and needy
          > and aren't able to read
          > between the lines and
          > see the real truth behind
          > Klemp's words and methods.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >

        • Russ Rodnick
          I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
            I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

            There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

            Russ




            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

             
            Hello Non eckchains and All,
            What has me ROFLMAO is
            that Klemp has enough of
            a problem that he used it
            in the ASK The MASTER
            section of the H.I. Letter!
            And, it was the only question!
            They had, supposedly, an
            H.I. write-in and point out
            the problem. No name given.

            I remember when I had
            to deal with some older
            H.I.s (former RESAs) in
            coordinator and director
            positions and it was
            impossible to get this
            one to follow the Guidelines
            on EK Worship Services
            (EWS). Many long-time
            H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
            Guidelines and my
            RESA turned a blind-
            eye to it all. We had
            so many former RESAs
            in volunteer positions
            that it was impossible
            to get them on the
            same page and to follow
            procedures. I think
            that some were just
            burned out and tired
            of Klemp's B.S. but
            didn't want to leave.
            Maybe they had too
            many friendships to
            lose. Plus, let's face
            it. A lot of these people
            are losers in the real
            world but are big shots
            in Eckankar. Those
            Higher Initiations are
            a big deal to the ego!

            Prometheus


            "Non" eckchains wrote:
            It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
            don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
            offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
            over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
            even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

            Non ;)

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello All,
            > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
            > Letter I've read that
            > Klemp still needs to
            > update his Guidelines
            > for the H.I.s in the
            > field and chastise
            > those who are slow
            > to get with the program.
            >
            > Many long-time H.I.s
            > want the freedom
            > of Soul to be more
            > individualistic,
            > spontaneous, and
            > creative by thinking
            > they (Soul) can operate
            > outside-of-the-box,
            > thus, being channels
            > for the ECK. Klemp
            > has previously stated
            > that he's imperfect,
            > but that's not the case
            > with the ECK, correct?
            >
            > Why, then, shouldn't
            > their current (Present)
            > Inner EK Guidance be
            > followed versus that
            > of outer set-in-stone
            > ESC Guidelines printed
            > in the Past and approved
            > by a committee of imperfect
            > people on a plane ruled
            > by the KAL?
            >
            > H.I.s still haven't learned
            > that freedom of expression
            > doesn't work in Klemp's
            > version of ECKankar.
            > It's a hierarchy where
            > everything is spelled
            > out and controlled
            > by him and his secret
            > RESA police, plus, all
            > field work must be
            > approved via the
            > current Guidelines.
            >
            > Many inexperienced
            > EKists like the idea of
            > being told how to do
            > this or that and what
            > approved books to use
            > and what to say and
            > other details to make
            > the promotion of
            > Eckankar easier.
            >
            > But the real point the
            > ESC (Klemp) is making
            > is to have EK PR more
            > consistent and cookie
            > cutter looking/sounding
            > for the public.
            >
            > Plus, the EK Guidelines
            > are like following a
            > recipe set-in-stone
            > that disregards individual
            > or regional tastes and
            > disallows any additions
            > or omissions of other
            > ingredients, methods,
            > and/or spices.
            >
            > Klemp's foretold admonishments
            > are about H.I.s resisting
            > change. He says they "rock
            > the boat" out of "fear" and
            > that "it's all about fear."
            > Also, "they huddle in packs"
            > and "reinforce in each other
            > a group's opposition to
            > anything new." Strange
            > that Klemp's H.I.s are
            > subject to fear since he's
            > supposed to protect them!
            > This is how the KAL works.
            > Klemp is his agent.
            >
            > However, the real 'change'
            > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
            > Klemp's nonsense and
            > heavy handed control tactics.
            > Many H.I.s, however, chose
            > the Freedom of Soul versus
            > being bound to dogma.
            > HK side-steps delivering
            > on his promises of protection
            > and never has anything
            > profound to share. And,
            > where are those Higher
            > Initiations that are, supposedly,
            > yardsticks in measuring
            > Consciousness and Spiritual
            > Growth? Klemp is playing
            > the long-con and is, thus,
            > stingy and self-serving.
            >
            > Harold goes on to say that
            > these H.I.s are "obstructions
            > on the path to God instead
            > of being stepping stones."
            > Apparently, being creative
            > and spontaneous and
            > following "Inner Nudges"
            > and/or "Signs" are not
            > permitted if it conflicts
            > with the LEM's outer,
            > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
            >
            > The LEM states that, "We
            > are here to learn." However,
            > what is it that Klemp "learns"
            > from others since he never
            > listens? He's the Top goD
            > and doesn't partake in
            > two-way dialogues with
            > those under his authority.
            >
            > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
            > and unloving as he continues
            > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
            > believe that if they sit still
            > and breathe only enough to
            > sustain life that they may
            > well dodge the lightning
            > strikes of irksome change."
            > Is that a threat? HK sounds
            > like KAL! However, by doing
            > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
            > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
            > Don't EKists still die of all
            > sorts of illnesses and situations
            > that could have be averted
            > if they had gotten proper
            > and immediate care? Sure!
            > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
            > ECKists and his veiled threats
            > are meaningless... unless
            > you've given this Black
            > Magician power over you!
            >
            > But, it seems that HK
            > has something else stuck
            > in his craw. It seems to
            > me that Klemp doesn't
            > like his 7ths just sitting
            > still and Contemplating
            > or HUing, and enjoying
            > life. But why shouldn't
            > they take it easy after
            > 40 years of doing PR
            > work for Eckankar!
            >
            > So, what does Klemp
            > the All compassionate,
            > loving, positive, and
            > empathetic icon of EK
            > conclude?
            >
            > "An H.I. who blatantly
            > refuses to adhere to
            > the ECK Guidelines
            > needs to be addressed
            > on the issues." Hmmmm.
            > I wonder what that
            > really means? Well,
            > unless you're already
            > a 7th you can kiss that
            > next initiation good-bye
            > for like 10-20 years!
            >
            > Klemp continues to say,
            > "These are big stakes!
            > Continued refusal means
            > it's time for a replacement
            > to step in. A change is
            > due. Change. isn't it
            > funny how we have come
            > full circle?" No! It's not
            > really funny. Klemp
            > abuses the concept
            > of "change" and makes
            > it into a misnomer.
            >
            > What "changes" are there
            > in Eckankar? The same
            > old things are merely
            > revisited, updated, dusted
            > off and made to seem
            > "new." It's all a facade,
            > smoke and mirrors, and
            > a game of pretend by
            > creating brightly colored
            > straws to grab at and
            > cling to when drowning.
            >
            > Too bad that EKists are
            > so deluded and needy
            > and aren't able to read
            > between the lines and
            > see the real truth behind
            > Klemp's words and methods.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >



          • prometheus_973
            Hello Russ and All, I remember when I was heavily involved and very close to the old RESA. EK state and local center business, dead lines for events and PR,
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
              Hello Russ and All,
              I remember when I
              was heavily involved
              and very close to the
              old RESA. EK state and
              local center business,
              dead lines for events
              and PR, HK's expectations
              of following procedures
              and the complex Guidelines
              stressed all of us out.
              Just getting the newsletter
              out on time was a pain
              in the ass.

              Then, there were the
              job descriptions for
              coordinator and director
              positions. When asking
              people to volunteer for
              these positions they had
              no idea of what was really
              expected of them and
              of what they were getting
              into until we got them
              their job description folder.
              Some EKists couldn't handle
              the duties and the oversight.

              I changed and was too
              serious when at the EK
              center or in business
              meetings. But, I was just
              following the orders and
              expectations and the lead
              of the (fascist) RESA who
              was following the fascist
              Leader (HK).

              H.I.s can become very
              consumed when caught
              up in and involved with
              the internal workings
              of the org. Plus, Klemp
              has never been empathetic
              and is results oriented,
              so this is why many of
              his RESAs are chosen.
              They are either very hands-
              on and controlling, or
              tend to delegate responsibility
              to others who are more
              heavy-handed, mean-
              spirited or ego driven
              and fascist acting.

              In actuality many EKists
              only have Eckankar in
              common with one another.
              Some of these people
              are okay and were fun
              to hang out with at times,
              but this wasn't true with
              too many on a personal
              level. There were personality
              conflicts or quirks that
              were just too weird.

              That reminds me of this
              Holiday Season. Many
              EKists will have Christmas
              trees and will decorate
              with lights and will celebrate
              the holidays and the New
              Year just like normal people.

              But ECKists don't have
              that. Their New Year is
              Oct. 22nd which was
              Twitchell's B-Day. So,
              when you think of it
              Oct. 22nd was not just
              the EK New Year but was
              like their Christmas too!

              It's no wonder EKists seem
              to be schizophrenic when
              it comes to the holidays.
              Most ECKists don't realize
              that Oct. 22nd was created
              as the date for the handing
              of the Rod of ECK Power
              (the EK New Year) because
              it was Twitchell's B-Day!
              This is, also, why Klemp
              doesn't reveal his birth
              month and day since he,
              the (supposed) Mahanta,
              didn't choose to be born
              on Oct. 22nd as well.

              Prometheus


              Russ Rodnick wrote:
              I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community.

              There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things.

              Russ

              prometheus wrote:
              Hello Non eckchains and All,
              What has me ROFLMAO is
              that Klemp has enough of
              a problem that he used it
              in the ASK The MASTER
              section of the H.I. Letter!
              And, it was the only question!
              They had, supposedly, an
              H.I. write-in and point out
              the problem. No name given.

              I remember when I had
              to deal with some older
              H.I.s (former RESAs) in
              coordinator and director
              positions and it was
              impossible to get this
              one to follow the Guidelines
              on EK Worship Services
              (EWS). Many long-time
              H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
              Guidelines and my
              RESA turned a blind-
              eye to it all. We had
              so many former RESAs
              in volunteer positions
              that it was impossible
              to get them on the
              same page and to follow
              procedures. I think
              that some were just
              burned out and tired
              of Klemp's B.S. but
              didn't want to leave.
              Maybe they had too
              many friendships to
              lose. Plus, let's face
              it. A lot of these people
              are losers in the real
              world but are big shots
              in Eckankar. Those
              Higher Initiations are
              a big deal to the ego!

              Prometheus


              "Non" eckchains wrote:
              It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
              don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
              offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
              over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
              even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

              Non ;)

              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hello All,
              > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
              > Letter I've read that
              > Klemp still needs to
              > update his Guidelines
              > for the H.I.s in the
              > field and chastise
              > those who are slow
              > to get with the program.
              >
              > Many long-time H.I.s
              > want the freedom
              > of Soul to be more
              > individualistic,
              > spontaneous, and
              > creative by thinking
              > they (Soul) can operate
              > outside-of-the-box,
              > thus, being channels
              > for the ECK. Klemp
              > has previously stated
              > that he's imperfect,
              > but that's not the case
              > with the ECK, correct?
              >
              > Why, then, shouldn't
              > their current (Present)
              > Inner EK Guidance be
              > followed versus that
              > of outer set-in-stone
              > ESC Guidelines printed
              > in the Past and approved
              > by a committee of imperfect
              > people on a plane ruled
              > by the KAL?
              >
              > H.I.s still haven't learned
              > that freedom of expression
              > doesn't work in Klemp's
              > version of ECKankar.
              > It's a hierarchy where
              > everything is spelled
              > out and controlled
              > by him and his secret
              > RESA police, plus, all
              > field work must be
              > approved via the
              > current Guidelines.
              >
              > Many inexperienced
              > EKists like the idea of
              > being told how to do
              > this or that and what
              > approved books to use
              > and what to say and
              > other details to make
              > the promotion of
              > Eckankar easier.
              >
              > But the real point the
              > ESC (Klemp) is making
              > is to have EK PR more
              > consistent and cookie
              > cutter looking/sounding
              > for the public.
              >
              > Plus, the EK Guidelines
              > are like following a
              > recipe set-in-stone
              > that disregards individual
              > or regional tastes and
              > disallows any additions
              > or omissions of other
              > ingredients, methods,
              > and/or spices.
              >
              > Klemp's foretold admonishments
              > are about H.I.s resisting
              > change. He says they "rock
              > the boat" out of "fear" and
              > that "it's all about fear."
              > Also, "they huddle in packs"
              > and "reinforce in each other
              > a group's opposition to
              > anything new." Strange
              > that Klemp's H.I.s are
              > subject to fear since he's
              > supposed to protect them!
              > This is how the KAL works.
              > Klemp is his agent.
              >
              > However, the real 'change'
              > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
              > Klemp's nonsense and
              > heavy handed control tactics.
              > Many H.I.s, however, chose
              > the Freedom of Soul versus
              > being bound to dogma.
              > HK side-steps delivering
              > on his promises of protection
              > and never has anything
              > profound to share. And,
              > where are those Higher
              > Initiations that are, supposedly,
              > yardsticks in measuring
              > Consciousness and Spiritual
              > Growth? Klemp is playing
              > the long-con and is, thus,
              > stingy and self-serving.
              >
              > Harold goes on to say that
              > these H.I.s are "obstructions
              > on the path to God instead
              > of being stepping stones."
              > Apparently, being creative
              > and spontaneous and
              > following "Inner Nudges"
              > and/or "Signs" are not
              > permitted if it conflicts
              > with the LEM's outer,
              > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
              >
              > The LEM states that, "We
              > are here to learn." However,
              > what is it that Klemp "learns"
              > from others since he never
              > listens? He's the Top goD
              > and doesn't partake in
              > two-way dialogues with
              > those under his authority.
              >
              > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
              > and unloving as he continues
              > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
              > believe that if they sit still
              > and breathe only enough to
              > sustain life that they may
              > well dodge the lightning
              > strikes of irksome change."
              > Is that a threat? HK sounds
              > like KAL! However, by doing
              > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
              > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
              > Don't EKists still die of all
              > sorts of illnesses and situations
              > that could have be averted
              > if they had gotten proper
              > and immediate care? Sure!
              > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
              > ECKists and his veiled threats
              > are meaningless... unless
              > you've given this Black
              > Magician power over you!
              >
              > But, it seems that HK
              > has something else stuck
              > in his craw. It seems to
              > me that Klemp doesn't
              > like his 7ths just sitting
              > still and Contemplating
              > or HUing, and enjoying
              > life. But why shouldn't
              > they take it easy after
              > 40 years of doing PR
              > work for Eckankar!
              >
              > So, what does Klemp
              > the All compassionate,
              > loving, positive, and
              > empathetic icon of EK
              > conclude?
              >
              > "An H.I. who blatantly
              > refuses to adhere to
              > the ECK Guidelines
              > needs to be addressed
              > on the issues." Hmmmm.
              > I wonder what that
              > really means? Well,
              > unless you're already
              > a 7th you can kiss that
              > next initiation good-bye
              > for like 10-20 years!
              >
              > Klemp continues to say,
              > "These are big stakes!
              > Continued refusal means
              > it's time for a replacement
              > to step in. A change is
              > due. Change. isn't it
              > funny how we have come
              > full circle?" No! It's not
              > really funny. Klemp
              > abuses the concept
              > of "change" and makes
              > it into a misnomer.
              >
              > What "changes" are there
              > in Eckankar? The same
              > old things are merely
              > revisited, updated, dusted
              > off and made to seem
              > "new." It's all a facade,
              > smoke and mirrors, and
              > a game of pretend by
              > creating brightly colored
              > straws to grab at and
              > cling to when drowning.
              >
              > Too bad that EKists are
              > so deluded and needy
              > and aren't able to read
              > between the lines and
              > see the real truth behind
              > Klemp's words and methods.
              >
              > Prometheus
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Janice, Klemp will keep tightening the screws and dangling the initiation carrot. It s his M.O. However, he doesn t care about the repercussions because
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
                Hello Janice,
                Klemp will keep tightening
                the screws and dangling
                the initiation carrot. It's his
                M.O. However, he doesn't
                care about the repercussions
                because he's financially
                solid and secure with his
                book royalties and retirement
                plan. But he does still like
                the attention. Eckankar, and
                EK writing, is Klemp's hobby.

                It's interesting if you look
                at some pics of the H.I.s at
                Retreats or at their H.I. Meetings
                you might notice there are
                many elderly (70 years plus)
                H.I.s. Those age 60 and older
                probably make up 75% of
                the total number of EK Higher
                Initiates.

                Klemp, by slowing down initiations
                and placing the glass ceiling
                on the 7th has discouraged
                many H.I.s. Of course there
                are some 8ths and a few 9ths
                but these numbers are nowhere
                what they should be and don't
                reflect the dogma or goals of
                Twitchell. The frustration with
                Klemp's stinginess in doling
                out initiations via his narcissism
                has done more harm to Eckankar
                maintaining membership numbers
                than any of their PR tactics have
                been able to compensated for.

                Yet, many EKists refuse to see
                this reality and hold Klemp
                responsible. HK's ploy is telling
                them that it's all a "test" and
                to be patient and detached
                when, in truth, it's all a "trap."

                There are many 7ths who have
                had their 7th Initiation for 25
                years! Why? Klemp is playing
                with them and they've got too
                much time, energy, money, status,
                EK friends and history invested
                to leave. It's all they know. It's
                pitiful, and the longer and higher
                they are the less free they are.
                But, they are good actors and,
                like Klemp, have learned how
                to play the game... follow the
                leader.

                Prometheus

                Janice wrote:
                Thank all of you for the interesting reading. I think it would be cool if klemp keeps tightening the screws. Hopefully, it will only drive more away. So many of you had a lot more time than I did in eckankar. I really had a hard time dealing with HI attitudes from day one. Reading what you have to say explains a lot of things for me. I appreciate it very much.


                Non ekchains wrote:
                It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                Non ;)

                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello All,
                > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                > Letter I've read that
                > Klemp still needs to
                > update his Guidelines
                > for the H.I.s in the
                > field and chastise
                > those who are slow
                > to get with the program.
                >
                > Many long-time H.I.s
                > want the freedom
                > of Soul to be more
                > individualistic,
                > spontaneous, and
                > creative by thinking
                > they (Soul) can operate
                > outside-of-the-box,
                > thus, being channels
                > for the ECK. Klemp
                > has previously stated
                > that he's imperfect,
                > but that's not the case
                > with the ECK, correct?
                >
                > Why, then, shouldn't
                > their current (Present)
                > Inner EK Guidance be
                > followed versus that
                > of outer set-in-stone
                > ESC Guidelines printed
                > in the Past and approved
                > by a committee of imperfect
                > people on a plane ruled
                > by the KAL?
                >
                > H.I.s still haven't learned
                > that it doesn't work
                > that way in Klemp's
                > version of ECKankar.
                > It's a hierarchy where
                > everything is spelled
                > out and controlled
                > by him and his secret
                > RESA police and that
                > all field work must be
                > approved of first and
                > follow the current
                > Guidelines.
                >
                > Many inexperienced
                > EKists like the idea of
                > being told how to do
                > this or that and what
                > approved books to use
                > and what to say and
                > other details to make
                > the promotion of
                > Eckankar easier.
                >
                > But the real point the
                > ESC (Klemp) is making
                > is to have EK PR more
                > consistent and cookie
                > cutter looking/sounding
                > for the public.
                >
                > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                > are like following a
                > recipe set-in-stone
                > that disregards individual
                > or regional tastes and
                > disallows any additions
                > or omissions of other
                > ingredients, methods,
                > and/or spices.
                >
                > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                > are about H.I.s resisting
                > change. They "rock the
                > boat" out of "fear" and
                > that's "it's all about fear."
                > That "they huddle in packs"
                > and "reinforce in each other
                > a group's opposition to
                > anything new." Strange
                > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                > subject to fear since he's
                > supposed to protect them!
                >
                > However, the real 'change'
                > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                > Klemp's nonsense and
                > heavy handed control tactics.
                > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                > the Freedom of Soul versus
                > being bound to dogma.
                > HK side-steps delivering
                > on his promises of protection
                > and never has anything
                > profound to share. And,
                > where are those Higher
                > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                > yardsticks in measuring
                > Consciousness and Spiritual
                > Growth? Klemp is playing
                > the long-con and is, thus,
                > stingy and self-serving.
                >
                > Harold goes on to say that
                > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                > on the path to God instead
                > of being stepping stones."
                > Apparently, being creative
                > and spontaneous and
                > following "Inner Nudges"
                > and/or "Signs" are not
                > permitted if it conflicts
                > with the LEM's outer,
                > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                >
                > The LEM states that, "We
                > are here to learn." However,
                > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                > from others since he never
                > listens? He's the Top goD
                > and doesn't partake in
                > two-way dialogues with
                > those under his authority.
                >
                > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                > and unloving as he continues
                > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                > believe that if they sit still
                > and breathe only enough to
                > sustain life that they may
                > well dodge the lightning
                > strikes of irksome change."
                > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                > like KAL! However, by doing
                > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                > Don't EKists still die of all
                > sorts of illnesses and situations
                > that could have be averted
                > if they had gotten proper
                > and immediate care? Sure!
                > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                > ECKists and his veiled threats
                > are meaningless... unless
                > you've given this Black
                > Magician power over you!
                >
                > But, it seems that HK
                > has something else stuck
                > in his craw. It seems to
                > me that Klemp doesn't
                > like his 7ths just sitting
                > still and Contemplating
                > or HUing, and enjoying
                > life. But why shouldn't
                > they take it easy after
                > 40 years of doing PR
                > work for Eckankar!
                >
                > So, what does Klemp
                > the All compassionate,
                > loving, positive, and
                > empathetic icon of EK
                > conclude?
                >
                > "An H.I. who blatantly
                > refuses to adhere to
                > the ECK Guidelines
                > needs to be addressed
                > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                > I wonder what that
                > really means? Well,
                > unless you're already
                > a 7th you can kiss that
                > next initiation good-bye
                > for like 10-20 years!
                >
                > Klemp continues to say,
                > "These are big stakes!
                > Continued refusal means
                > it's time for a replacement
                > to step in. A change is
                > due. Change. isn't it
                > funny how we have come
                > full circle?" No! It's not
                > really funny. Klemp
                > abuses the concept
                > of "change" and makes
                > it into a misnomer.
                >
                > What "changes" are there
                > in Eckankar? The same
                > old things are merely
                > revisited, updated, dusted
                > off and made to seem
                > "new." It's all a facade,
                > smoke and mirrors, and
                > a game of pretend by
                > creating brightly colored
                > straws to grab at and
                > cling to when drowning.
                >
                > Too bad that EKists are
                > so deluded and needy
                > and aren't able to read
                > between the lines and
                > see the real truth behind
                > Klemp's words and methods.
                >
                > Prometheus
              • Janice Pfeiffer
                Do you think many new members are being attracted to eckankar at this point?  I hope the org is drying up from a lack of new members.  When one cult gets
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
                  Do you think many new members are being attracted to eckankar at this point?  I hope the org is drying up from a lack of new members.  When one cult gets negative exposure hopefully they all suffer.  Scientology has been making the news with their antics a lot in the past year and their membership seems to be suffering.  I do so wish the same for eckankar. 
                   
                  When I first joined this site, I still felt some anger toward eckankar and myself also.  It wasn't easy for me to accept that I fell for it.  Since reading the postings here, I feel a lot better about myself and less angry about eckankar. 
                   
                  I would like to see them fall because I don't want others to go through what I did but I don't feel a need to do anything actively about it where as previously I was just itching to find a group that might sue the pants off of them.  My reading the postings has mellowed me about the whole thing and I see it as a very good thing.  I feel some what indifferent about it now.  However I might feel differently if I thought they were growing profusely. 
                   
                  I don't have as much time invested in eckankar as a lot of you do and I wasn't in a position to see as much as a lot of you.  Again, I am grateful for all I have learned here.  I feel this site is the most helpful thing I have found since leaving eckankar.  I did find others but I didn't learn the kinds of things I needed to know to put the whole experience in proper perspective.  After reading Ford Johnson's book, I visited his site some but I was disappointed that he seemed to be modeling his site after eckankar somewhat although he was posting stuff that appeared to be original. 
                   
                  So I hope you know you are providing a very valuable place for those who have left the org and need to get a grip on things and  if some one who might have an interest in eckankar, reads the postings here, it most definitely would  keep them from joining.  Do keep up the good work. 
                   
                  Have a good night all. 

                  --- On Thu, 12/13/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 11:28 PM

                   
                  Hello Janice,
                  Klemp will keep tightening
                  the screws and dangling
                  the initiation carrot. It's his
                  M.O. However, he doesn't
                  care about the repercussions
                  because he's financially
                  solid and secure with his
                  book royalties and retirement
                  plan. But he does still like
                  the attention. Eckankar, and
                  EK writing, is Klemp's hobby.

                  It's interesting if you look
                  at some pics of the H.I.s at
                  Retreats or at their H.I. Meetings
                  you might notice there are
                  many elderly (70 years plus)
                  H.I.s. Those age 60 and older
                  probably make up 75% of
                  the total number of EK Higher
                  Initiates.

                  Klemp, by slowing down initiations
                  and placing the glass ceiling
                  on the 7th has discouraged
                  many H.I.s. Of course there
                  are some 8ths and a few 9ths
                  but these numbers are nowhere
                  what they should be and don't
                  reflect the dogma or goals of
                  Twitchell. The frustration with
                  Klemp's stinginess in doling
                  out initiations via his narcissism
                  has done more harm to Eckankar
                  maintaining membership numbers
                  than any of their PR tactics have
                  been able to compensated for.

                  Yet, many EKists refuse to see
                  this reality and hold Klemp
                  responsible. HK's ploy is telling
                  them that it's all a "test" and
                  to be patient and detached
                  when, in truth, it's all a "trap."

                  There are many 7ths who have
                  had their 7th Initiation for 25
                  years! Why? Klemp is playing
                  with them and they've got too
                  much time, energy, money, status,
                  EK friends and history invested
                  to leave. It's all they know. It's
                  pitiful, and the longer and higher
                  they are the less free they are.
                  But, they are good actors and,
                  like Klemp, have learned how
                  to play the game... follow the
                  leader.

                  Prometheus

                  Janice wrote:
                  Thank all of you for the interesting reading. I think it would be cool if klemp keeps tightening the screws. Hopefully, it will only drive more away. So many of you had a lot more time than I did in eckankar. I really had a hard time dealing with HI attitudes from day one. Reading what you have to say explains a lot of things for me. I appreciate it very much.

                  Non ekchains wrote:
                  It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                  Non ;)

                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello All,
                  > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                  > Letter I've read that
                  > Klemp still needs to
                  > update his Guidelines
                  > for the H.I.s in the
                  > field and chastise
                  > those who are slow
                  > to get with the program.
                  >
                  > Many long-time H.I.s
                  > want the freedom
                  > of Soul to be more
                  > individualistic,
                  > spontaneous, and
                  > creative by thinking
                  > they (Soul) can operate
                  > outside-of-the-box,
                  > thus, being channels
                  > for the ECK. Klemp
                  > has previously stated
                  > that he's imperfect,
                  > but that's not the case
                  > with the ECK, correct?
                  >
                  > Why, then, shouldn't
                  > their current (Present)
                  > Inner EK Guidance be
                  > followed versus that
                  > of outer set-in-stone
                  > ESC Guidelines printed
                  > in the Past and approved
                  > by a committee of imperfect
                  > people on a plane ruled
                  > by the KAL?
                  >
                  > H.I.s still haven't learned
                  > that it doesn't work
                  > that way in Klemp's
                  > version of ECKankar.
                  > It's a hierarchy where
                  > everything is spelled
                  > out and controlled
                  > by him and his secret
                  > RESA police and that
                  > all field work must be
                  > approved of first and
                  > follow the current
                  > Guidelines.
                  >
                  > Many inexperienced
                  > EKists like the idea of
                  > being told how to do
                  > this or that and what
                  > approved books to use
                  > and what to say and
                  > other details to make
                  > the promotion of
                  > Eckankar easier.
                  >
                  > But the real point the
                  > ESC (Klemp) is making
                  > is to have EK PR more
                  > consistent and cookie
                  > cutter looking/sounding
                  > for the public.
                  >
                  > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                  > are like following a
                  > recipe set-in-stone
                  > that disregards individual
                  > or regional tastes and
                  > disallows any additions
                  > or omissions of other
                  > ingredients, methods,
                  > and/or spices.
                  >
                  > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                  > are about H.I.s resisting
                  > change. They "rock the
                  > boat" out of "fear" and
                  > that's "it's all about fear."
                  > That "they huddle in packs"
                  > and "reinforce in each other
                  > a group's opposition to
                  > anything new." Strange
                  > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                  > subject to fear since he's
                  > supposed to protect them!
                  >
                  > However, the real 'change'
                  > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                  > Klemp's nonsense and
                  > heavy handed control tactics.
                  > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                  > the Freedom of Soul versus
                  > being bound to dogma.
                  > HK side-steps delivering
                  > on his promises of protection
                  > and never has anything
                  > profound to share. And,
                  > where are those Higher
                  > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                  > yardsticks in measuring
                  > Consciousness and Spiritual
                  > Growth? Klemp is playing
                  > the long-con and is, thus,
                  > stingy and self-serving.
                  >
                  > Harold goes on to say that
                  > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                  > on the path to God instead
                  > of being stepping stones."
                  > Apparently, being creative
                  > and spontaneous and
                  > following "Inner Nudges"
                  > and/or "Signs" are not
                  > permitted if it conflicts
                  > with the LEM's outer,
                  > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                  >
                  > The LEM states that, "We
                  > are here to learn." However,
                  > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                  > from others since he never
                  > listens? He's the Top goD
                  > and doesn't partake in
                  > two-way dialogues with
                  > those under his authority.
                  >
                  > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                  > and unloving as he continues
                  > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                  > believe that if they sit still
                  > and breathe only enough to
                  > sustain life that they may
                  > well dodge the lightning
                  > strikes of irksome change."
                  > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                  > like KAL! However, by doing
                  > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                  > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                  > Don't EKists still die of all
                  > sorts of illnesses and situations
                  > that could have be averted
                  > if they had gotten proper
                  > and immediate care? Sure!
                  > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                  > ECKists and his veiled threats
                  > are meaningless... unless
                  > you've given this Black
                  > Magician power over you!
                  >
                  > But, it seems that HK
                  > has something else stuck
                  > in his craw. It seems to
                  > me that Klemp doesn't
                  > like his 7ths just sitting
                  > still and Contemplating
                  > or HUing, and enjoying
                  > life. But why shouldn't
                  > they take it easy after
                  > 40 years of doing PR
                  > work for Eckankar!
                  >
                  > So, what does Klemp
                  > the All compassionate,
                  > loving, positive, and
                  > empathetic icon of EK
                  > conclude?
                  >
                  > "An H.I. who blatantly
                  > refuses to adhere to
                  > the ECK Guidelines
                  > needs to be addressed
                  > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                  > I wonder what that
                  > really means? Well,
                  > unless you're already
                  > a 7th you can kiss that
                  > next initiation good-bye
                  > for like 10-20 years!
                  >
                  > Klemp continues to say,
                  > "These are big stakes!
                  > Continued refusal means
                  > it's time for a replacement
                  > to step in. A change is
                  > due. Change. isn't it
                  > funny how we have come
                  > full circle?" No! It's not
                  > really funny. Klemp
                  > abuses the concept
                  > of "change" and makes
                  > it into a misnomer.
                  >
                  > What "changes" are there
                  > in Eckankar? The same
                  > old things are merely
                  > revisited, updated, dusted
                  > off and made to seem
                  > "new." It's all a facade,
                  > smoke and mirrors, and
                  > a game of pretend by
                  > creating brightly colored
                  > straws to grab at and
                  > cling to when drowning.
                  >
                  > Too bad that EKists are
                  > so deluded and needy
                  > and aren't able to read
                  > between the lines and
                  > see the real truth behind
                  > Klemp's words and methods.
                  >
                  > Prometheus

                • Janice Pfeiffer
                  I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn t help but think where is the Love .  But I was
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
                    I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn't help but think "where is the Love".  But I was willing to think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly spiritually advanced people could not be unloving.  They would say awful things about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu sings and such like they were all good buddies.  I am a loyal type person to those who are my friends and those I think well of.  I could not understand these things coming from so called well developed people.  I even think a male that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at times although I don't know that to be a fact.  Also, some of the other females would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group.  I got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very disrespectful.  I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I could not form friendships with any of them.  It was what I read that held me in eckankar.  The quality of the people in the center was terrible.  It bothered me so bad that I sought a spiritual session.  I told the adviser what I was thinking.  Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself shocking.  She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and she preferred not to be involved with their activities.  It only made me feel more confused as a fairly new person.  I would perform tasks anytime I was asked but I started avoiding the center also.  Finally, seeing the truth about the teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away.  I decided that being a long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion.  it seems they open their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no matter who it was about.  Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be what they were.  It was crazy; all of it. 
                    --- On Thu, 12/13/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                    From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                    To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 2:03 PM

                     
                    I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

                    There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

                    Russ




                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                     
                    Hello Non eckchains and All,
                    What has me ROFLMAO is
                    that Klemp has enough of
                    a problem that he used it
                    in the ASK The MASTER
                    section of the H.I. Letter!
                    And, it was the only question!
                    They had, supposedly, an
                    H.I. write-in and point out
                    the problem. No name given.

                    I remember when I had
                    to deal with some older
                    H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                    coordinator and director
                    positions and it was
                    impossible to get this
                    one to follow the Guidelines
                    on EK Worship Services
                    (EWS). Many long-time
                    H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                    Guidelines and my
                    RESA turned a blind-
                    eye to it all. We had
                    so many former RESAs
                    in volunteer positions
                    that it was impossible
                    to get them on the
                    same page and to follow
                    procedures. I think
                    that some were just
                    burned out and tired
                    of Klemp's B.S. but
                    didn't want to leave.
                    Maybe they had too
                    many friendships to
                    lose. Plus, let's face
                    it. A lot of these people
                    are losers in the real
                    world but are big shots
                    in Eckankar. Those
                    Higher Initiations are
                    a big deal to the ego!

                    Prometheus


                    "Non" eckchains wrote:
                    It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                    don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                    offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                    over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                    even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                    Non ;)

                    prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                    > Letter I've read that
                    > Klemp still needs to
                    > update his Guidelines
                    > for the H.I.s in the
                    > field and chastise
                    > those who are slow
                    > to get with the program.
                    >
                    > Many long-time H.I.s
                    > want the freedom
                    > of Soul to be more
                    > individualistic,
                    > spontaneous, and
                    > creative by thinking
                    > they (Soul) can operate
                    > outside-of-the-box,
                    > thus, being channels
                    > for the ECK. Klemp
                    > has previously stated
                    > that he's imperfect,
                    > but that's not the case
                    > with the ECK, correct?
                    >
                    > Why, then, shouldn't
                    > their current (Present)
                    > Inner EK Guidance be
                    > followed versus that
                    > of outer set-in-stone
                    > ESC Guidelines printed
                    > in the Past and approved
                    > by a committee of imperfect
                    > people on a plane ruled
                    > by the KAL?
                    >
                    > H.I.s still haven't learned
                    > that freedom of expression
                    > doesn't work in Klemp's
                    > version of ECKankar.
                    > It's a hierarchy where
                    > everything is spelled
                    > out and controlled
                    > by him and his secret
                    > RESA police, plus, all
                    > field work must be
                    > approved via the
                    > current Guidelines.
                    >
                    > Many inexperienced
                    > EKists like the idea of
                    > being told how to do
                    > this or that and what
                    > approved books to use
                    > and what to say and
                    > other details to make
                    > the promotion of
                    > Eckankar easier.
                    >
                    > But the real point the
                    > ESC (Klemp) is making
                    > is to have EK PR more
                    > consistent and cookie
                    > cutter looking/sounding
                    > for the public.
                    >
                    > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                    > are like following a
                    > recipe set-in-stone
                    > that disregards individual
                    > or regional tastes and
                    > disallows any additions
                    > or omissions of other
                    > ingredients, methods,
                    > and/or spices.
                    >
                    > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                    > are about H.I.s resisting
                    > change. He says they "rock
                    > the boat" out of "fear" and
                    > that "it's all about fear."
                    > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                    > and "reinforce in each other
                    > a group's opposition to
                    > anything new." Strange
                    > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                    > subject to fear since he's
                    > supposed to protect them!
                    > This is how the KAL works.
                    > Klemp is his agent.
                    >
                    > However, the real 'change'
                    > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                    > Klemp's nonsense and
                    > heavy handed control tactics.
                    > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                    > the Freedom of Soul versus
                    > being bound to dogma.
                    > HK side-steps delivering
                    > on his promises of protection
                    > and never has anything
                    > profound to share. And,
                    > where are those Higher
                    > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                    > yardsticks in measuring
                    > Consciousness and Spiritual
                    > Growth? Klemp is playing
                    > the long-con and is, thus,
                    > stingy and self-serving.
                    >
                    > Harold goes on to say that
                    > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                    > on the path to God instead
                    > of being stepping stones."
                    > Apparently, being creative
                    > and spontaneous and
                    > following "Inner Nudges"
                    > and/or "Signs" are not
                    > permitted if it conflicts
                    > with the LEM's outer,
                    > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                    >
                    > The LEM states that, "We
                    > are here to learn." However,
                    > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                    > from others since he never
                    > listens? He's the Top goD
                    > and doesn't partake in
                    > two-way dialogues with
                    > those under his authority.
                    >
                    > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                    > and unloving as he continues
                    > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                    > believe that if they sit still
                    > and breathe only enough to
                    > sustain life that they may
                    > well dodge the lightning
                    > strikes of irksome change."
                    > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                    > like KAL! However, by doing
                    > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                    > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                    > Don't EKists still die of all
                    > sorts of illnesses and situations
                    > that could have be averted
                    > if they had gotten proper
                    > and immediate care? Sure!
                    > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                    > ECKists and his veiled threats
                    > are meaningless... unless
                    > you've given this Black
                    > Magician power over you!
                    >
                    > But, it seems that HK
                    > has something else stuck
                    > in his craw. It seems to
                    > me that Klemp doesn't
                    > like his 7ths just sitting
                    > still and Contemplating
                    > or HUing, and enjoying
                    > life. But why shouldn't
                    > they take it easy after
                    > 40 years of doing PR
                    > work for Eckankar!
                    >
                    > So, what does Klemp
                    > the All compassionate,
                    > loving, positive, and
                    > empathetic icon of EK
                    > conclude?
                    >
                    > "An H.I. who blatantly
                    > refuses to adhere to
                    > the ECK Guidelines
                    > needs to be addressed
                    > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                    > I wonder what that
                    > really means? Well,
                    > unless you're already
                    > a 7th you can kiss that
                    > next initiation good-bye
                    > for like 10-20 years!
                    >
                    > Klemp continues to say,
                    > "These are big stakes!
                    > Continued refusal means
                    > it's time for a replacement
                    > to step in. A change is
                    > due. Change. isn't it
                    > funny how we have come
                    > full circle?" No! It's not
                    > really funny. Klemp
                    > abuses the concept
                    > of "change" and makes
                    > it into a misnomer.
                    >
                    > What "changes" are there
                    > in Eckankar? The same
                    > old things are merely
                    > revisited, updated, dusted
                    > off and made to seem
                    > "new." It's all a facade,
                    > smoke and mirrors, and
                    > a game of pretend by
                    > creating brightly colored
                    > straws to grab at and
                    > cling to when drowning.
                    >
                    > Too bad that EKists are
                    > so deluded and needy
                    > and aren't able to read
                    > between the lines and
                    > see the real truth behind
                    > Klemp's words and methods.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >



                  • Russ Rodnick
                    You ve seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a very
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
                      You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love. 

                      Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers. 

                      Good to be away from it. 


                      From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 10:42 PM
                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                       
                      I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn't help but think "where is the Love".  But I was willing to think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly spiritually advanced people could not be unloving.  They would say awful things about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu sings and such like they were all good buddies.  I am a loyal type person to those who are my friends and those I think well of.  I could not understand these things coming from so called well developed people.  I even think a male that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at times although I don't know that to be a fact.  Also, some of the other females would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group.  I got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very disrespectful.  I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I could not form friendships with any of them.  It was what I read that held me in eckankar.  The quality of the people in the center was terrible.  It bothered me so bad that I sought a spiritual session.  I told the adviser what I was thinking.  Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself shocking.  She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and she preferred not to be involved with their activities.  It only made me feel more confused as a fairly new person.  I would perform tasks anytime I was asked but I started avoiding the center also.  Finally, seeing the truth about the teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away.  I decided that being a long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion.  it seems they open their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no matter who it was about.  Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be what they were.  It was crazy; all of it. 
                      --- On Thu, 12/13/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                      From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                      To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 2:03 PM

                       
                      I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

                      There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

                      Russ




                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                       
                      Hello Non eckchains and All,
                      What has me ROFLMAO is
                      that Klemp has enough of
                      a problem that he used it
                      in the ASK The MASTER
                      section of the H.I. Letter!
                      And, it was the only question!
                      They had, supposedly, an
                      H.I. write-in and point out
                      the problem. No name given.

                      I remember when I had
                      to deal with some older
                      H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                      coordinator and director
                      positions and it was
                      impossible to get this
                      one to follow the Guidelines
                      on EK Worship Services
                      (EWS). Many long-time
                      H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                      Guidelines and my
                      RESA turned a blind-
                      eye to it all. We had
                      so many former RESAs
                      in volunteer positions
                      that it was impossible
                      to get them on the
                      same page and to follow
                      procedures. I think
                      that some were just
                      burned out and tired
                      of Klemp's B.S. but
                      didn't want to leave.
                      Maybe they had too
                      many friendships to
                      lose. Plus, let's face
                      it. A lot of these people
                      are losers in the real
                      world but are big shots
                      in Eckankar. Those
                      Higher Initiations are
                      a big deal to the ego!

                      Prometheus


                      "Non" eckchains wrote:
                      It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                      don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                      offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                      over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                      even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                      Non ;)

                      prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello All,
                      > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                      > Letter I've read that
                      > Klemp still needs to
                      > update his Guidelines
                      > for the H.I.s in the
                      > field and chastise
                      > those who are slow
                      > to get with the program.
                      >
                      > Many long-time H.I.s
                      > want the freedom
                      > of Soul to be more
                      > individualistic,
                      > spontaneous, and
                      > creative by thinking
                      > they (Soul) can operate
                      > outside-of-the-box,
                      > thus, being channels
                      > for the ECK. Klemp
                      > has previously stated
                      > that he's imperfect,
                      > but that's not the case
                      > with the ECK, correct?
                      >
                      > Why, then, shouldn't
                      > their current (Present)
                      > Inner EK Guidance be
                      > followed versus that
                      > of outer set-in-stone
                      > ESC Guidelines printed
                      > in the Past and approved
                      > by a committee of imperfect
                      > people on a plane ruled
                      > by the KAL?
                      >
                      > H.I.s still haven't learned
                      > that freedom of expression
                      > doesn't work in Klemp's
                      > version of ECKankar.
                      > It's a hierarchy where
                      > everything is spelled
                      > out and controlled
                      > by him and his secret
                      > RESA police, plus, all
                      > field work must be
                      > approved via the
                      > current Guidelines.
                      >
                      > Many inexperienced
                      > EKists like the idea of
                      > being told how to do
                      > this or that and what
                      > approved books to use
                      > and what to say and
                      > other details to make
                      > the promotion of
                      > Eckankar easier.
                      >
                      > But the real point the
                      > ESC (Klemp) is making
                      > is to have EK PR more
                      > consistent and cookie
                      > cutter looking/sounding
                      > for the public.
                      >
                      > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                      > are like following a
                      > recipe set-in-stone
                      > that disregards individual
                      > or regional tastes and
                      > disallows any additions
                      > or omissions of other
                      > ingredients, methods,
                      > and/or spices.
                      >
                      > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                      > are about H.I.s resisting
                      > change. He says they "rock
                      > the boat" out of "fear" and
                      > that "it's all about fear."
                      > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                      > and "reinforce in each other
                      > a group's opposition to
                      > anything new." Strange
                      > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                      > subject to fear since he's
                      > supposed to protect them!
                      > This is how the KAL works.
                      > Klemp is his agent.
                      >
                      > However, the real 'change'
                      > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                      > Klemp's nonsense and
                      > heavy handed control tactics.
                      > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                      > the Freedom of Soul versus
                      > being bound to dogma.
                      > HK side-steps delivering
                      > on his promises of protection
                      > and never has anything
                      > profound to share. And,
                      > where are those Higher
                      > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                      > yardsticks in measuring
                      > Consciousness and Spiritual
                      > Growth? Klemp is playing
                      > the long-con and is, thus,
                      > stingy and self-serving.
                      >
                      > Harold goes on to say that
                      > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                      > on the path to God instead
                      > of being stepping stones."
                      > Apparently, being creative
                      > and spontaneous and
                      > following "Inner Nudges"
                      > and/or "Signs" are not
                      > permitted if it conflicts
                      > with the LEM's outer,
                      > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                      >
                      > The LEM states that, "We
                      > are here to learn." However,
                      > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                      > from others since he never
                      > listens? He's the Top goD
                      > and doesn't partake in
                      > two-way dialogues with
                      > those under his authority.
                      >
                      > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                      > and unloving as he continues
                      > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                      > believe that if they sit still
                      > and breathe only enough to
                      > sustain life that they may
                      > well dodge the lightning
                      > strikes of irksome change."
                      > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                      > like KAL! However, by doing
                      > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                      > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                      > Don't EKists still die of all
                      > sorts of illnesses and situations
                      > that could have be averted
                      > if they had gotten proper
                      > and immediate care? Sure!
                      > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                      > ECKists and his veiled threats
                      > are meaningless... unless
                      > you've given this Black
                      > Magician power over you!
                      >
                      > But, it seems that HK
                      > has something else stuck
                      > in his craw. It seems to
                      > me that Klemp doesn't
                      > like his 7ths just sitting
                      > still and Contemplating
                      > or HUing, and enjoying
                      > life. But why shouldn't
                      > they take it easy after
                      > 40 years of doing PR
                      > work for Eckankar!
                      >
                      > So, what does Klemp
                      > the All compassionate,
                      > loving, positive, and
                      > empathetic icon of EK
                      > conclude?
                      >
                      > "An H.I. who blatantly
                      > refuses to adhere to
                      > the ECK Guidelines
                      > needs to be addressed
                      > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                      > I wonder what that
                      > really means? Well,
                      > unless you're already
                      > a 7th you can kiss that
                      > next initiation good-bye
                      > for like 10-20 years!
                      >
                      > Klemp continues to say,
                      > "These are big stakes!
                      > Continued refusal means
                      > it's time for a replacement
                      > to step in. A change is
                      > due. Change. isn't it
                      > funny how we have come
                      > full circle?" No! It's not
                      > really funny. Klemp
                      > abuses the concept
                      > of "change" and makes
                      > it into a misnomer.
                      >
                      > What "changes" are there
                      > in Eckankar? The same
                      > old things are merely
                      > revisited, updated, dusted
                      > off and made to seem
                      > "new." It's all a facade,
                      > smoke and mirrors, and
                      > a game of pretend by
                      > creating brightly colored
                      > straws to grab at and
                      > cling to when drowning.
                      >
                      > Too bad that EKists are
                      > so deluded and needy
                      > and aren't able to read
                      > between the lines and
                      > see the real truth behind
                      > Klemp's words and methods.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >





                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Janice, Russ and All, Yes, some EK Volunteers in Satsang Society settler and explorer positions at the EK Centers would trip over their egos and go
                      Message 10 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
                        Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                        Yes, some EK Volunteers
                        in Satsang Society "settler"
                        and "explorer" positions at
                        the EK Centers would trip
                        over their egos and go on
                        power trips. Many seemed
                        cliquish and would huddle
                        together. Then, again, some
                        weren't all that friendly or
                        were very introverted and
                        shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                        including the clerics, to
                        greet and talk to all of the
                        new or seldom seen faces
                        that showed up. Many
                        only saw other Eckists at
                        the monthly EWS and this
                        was a time to catch up on
                        things. This is why I'd
                        suggest going to lunch
                        after the EWS and socializing.

                        Many Eckists are Introverts.
                        True? I think so!

                        Klemp's volunteer duties
                        and requirements for Eckists
                        means that they must take
                        on extroverted roles in
                        order to become H.I.s.
                        Eckists must force themselves,
                        against their innate natures,
                        to become extroverted and
                        egocentric. These leadership
                        requirements create conflict,
                        stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                        Thus, this imbalance that
                        Klemp has created and
                        reenforces aids him in
                        the brainwashing of his
                        flock to have programmed
                        religious faith, beliefs, and
                        mystical experiences. But,
                        this has its toll and is why
                        many long-time H.I.s choose
                        to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                        and his anal control tactics.

                        Sometimes, at special
                        harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                        and mini retreats the
                        long-time H.I.s, former
                        RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                        members would gather
                        around and gossip about
                        those absent or present.
                        Only, it wasn't seen as
                        gossip but rationalized
                        as more of an evaluative/
                        investigative discussion
                        for possible initiation
                        recommendation or for
                        a Satsang position appointment.
                        They wanted to know,
                        from sources who knew
                        them, if there were problems
                        with these EKists and, if
                        so, what the specific details
                        were. It was all ego driven
                        and subjective because we
                        were all volunteers and
                        had family and personal
                        lives too. But, it did weed
                        out those who weren't as
                        well indoctrinated....
                        supposedly. But, HK's eck
                        crap (busy work) was pretty
                        much always a waste of
                        time so, in the long run,
                        enthusiasm was probably
                        more important than acting
                        the part. The Satsang positions
                        and duties kept people
                        busy, gave them a purpose
                        and made them feel good,
                        although, very stressed out.

                        The Initiation game has made
                        Eckists struggle with denying
                        how much more they want of
                        this magical, imaginary, elixir.

                        Janice, that was crazy, too,
                        that an ESA told you that the
                        people at the EK Center were
                        crazy. That just isn't done
                        and is part of HK's agenda
                        of Silence and retraining.

                        There's that old Buddha quote
                        that Eckists sing and talk about
                        (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                        and this is supposed to keep
                        ECKists quiet or else they will
                        sometimes get reported:
                        "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                        this I ask myself before I
                        speak my mind." Interestingly,
                        following this criteria is very
                        subjective and could or would
                        Not, necessarily, stifle most
                        conservations.

                        "It's a beautiful day!" This
                        may be "true" for you and
                        for most people but not
                        not for all people. And, is
                        it "necessary" to exclaim
                        this? And, is it "kind" to say
                        this within earshot of people
                        who aren't feeling well or
                        who can't enjoy the day?
                        Yet, it's used by Klemp
                        to keep the critics of his
                        policies and of his H.I.s
                        to a minimum.

                        Prometheus


                        Russ Rodnick wrote:
                        You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                        considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                        very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                        over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                        by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                        to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                        very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                        rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                        handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.

                        Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                        communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.

                        Good to be away from it.

                        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                        I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                        beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                        think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                        spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                        about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                        sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                        those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                        these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                        that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                        times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                        would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                        got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                        her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                        thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                        disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                        could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                        eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                        so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                        thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                        shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                        she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                        more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                        but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                        teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                        long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                        their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                        matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                        what they were. It was crazy; all of it.

                        Russ wrote:
                        I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                        fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                        up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                        made him so popular in the eck community.

                        There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                        self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                        present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                        things.

                        Russ



                        prometheus wrote:
                        Hello Non eckchains and All,
                        What has me ROFLMAO is
                        that Klemp has enough of
                        a problem that he used it
                        in the ASK The MASTER
                        section of the H.I. Letter!
                        And, it was the only question!
                        They had, supposedly, an
                        H.I. write-in and point out
                        the problem. No name given.

                        I remember when I had
                        to deal with some older
                        H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                        coordinator and director
                        positions and it was
                        impossible to get this
                        one to follow the Guidelines
                        on EK Worship Services
                        (EWS). Many long-time
                        H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                        Guidelines and my
                        RESA turned a blind-
                        eye to it all. We had
                        so many former RESAs
                        in volunteer positions
                        that it was impossible
                        to get them on the
                        same page and to follow
                        procedures. I think
                        that some were just
                        burned out and tired
                        of Klemp's B.S. but
                        didn't want to leave.
                        Maybe they had too
                        many friendships to
                        lose. Plus, let's face
                        it. A lot of these people
                        are losers in the real
                        world but are big shots
                        in Eckankar. Those
                        Higher Initiations are
                        a big deal to the ego!

                        Prometheus


                        "Non" eckchains wrote:
                        It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                        don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                        offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                        over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                        even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                        Non ;)

                        prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello All,
                        > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                        > Letter I've read that
                        > Klemp still needs to
                        > update his Guidelines
                        > for the H.I.s in the
                        > field and chastise
                        > those who are slow
                        > to get with the program.
                        >
                        > Many long-time H.I.s
                        > want the freedom
                        > of Soul to be more
                        > individualistic,
                        > spontaneous, and
                        > creative by thinking
                        > they (Soul) can operate
                        > outside-of-the-box,
                        > thus, being channels
                        > for the ECK. Klemp
                        > has previously stated
                        > that he's imperfect,
                        > but that's not the case
                        > with the ECK, correct?
                        >
                        > Why, then, shouldn't
                        > their current (Present)
                        > Inner EK Guidance be
                        > followed versus that
                        > of outer set-in-stone
                        > ESC Guidelines printed
                        > in the Past and approved
                        > by a committee of imperfect
                        > people on a plane ruled
                        > by the KAL?
                        >
                        > H.I.s still haven't learned
                        > that freedom of expression
                        > doesn't work in Klemp's
                        > version of ECKankar.
                        > It's a hierarchy where
                        > everything is spelled
                        > out and controlled
                        > by him and his secret
                        > RESA police, plus, all
                        > field work must be
                        > approved via the
                        > current Guidelines.
                        >
                        > Many inexperienced
                        > EKists like the idea of
                        > being told how to do
                        > this or that and what
                        > approved books to use
                        > and what to say and
                        > other details to make
                        > the promotion of
                        > Eckankar easier.
                        >
                        > But the real point the
                        > ESC (Klemp) is making
                        > is to have EK PR more
                        > consistent and cookie
                        > cutter looking/sounding
                        > for the public.
                        >
                        > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                        > are like following a
                        > recipe set-in-stone
                        > that disregards individual
                        > or regional tastes and
                        > disallows any additions
                        > or omissions of other
                        > ingredients, methods,
                        > and/or spices.
                        >
                        > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                        > are about H.I.s resisting
                        > change. He says they "rock
                        > the boat" out of "fear" and
                        > that "it's all about fear."
                        > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                        > and "reinforce in each other
                        > a group's opposition to
                        > anything new." Strange
                        > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                        > subject to fear since he's
                        > supposed to protect them!
                        > This is how the KAL works.
                        > Klemp is his agent.
                        >
                        > However, the real 'change'
                        > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                        > Klemp's nonsense and
                        > heavy handed control tactics.
                        > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                        > the Freedom of Soul versus
                        > being bound to dogma.
                        > HK side-steps delivering
                        > on his promises of protection
                        > and never has anything
                        > profound to share. And,
                        > where are those Higher
                        > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                        > yardsticks in measuring
                        > Consciousness and Spiritual
                        > Growth? Klemp is playing
                        > the long-con and is, thus,
                        > stingy and self-serving.
                        >
                        > Harold goes on to say that
                        > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                        > on the path to God instead
                        > of being stepping stones."
                        > Apparently, being creative
                        > and spontaneous and
                        > following "Inner Nudges"
                        > and/or "Signs" are not
                        > permitted if it conflicts
                        > with the LEM's outer,
                        > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                        >
                        > The LEM states that, "We
                        > are here to learn." However,
                        > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                        > from others since he never
                        > listens? He's the Top goD
                        > and doesn't partake in
                        > two-way dialogues with
                        > those under his authority.
                        >
                        > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                        > and unloving as he continues
                        > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                        > believe that if they sit still
                        > and breathe only enough to
                        > sustain life that they may
                        > well dodge the lightning
                        > strikes of irksome change."
                        > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                        > like KAL! However, by doing
                        > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                        > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                        > Don't EKists still die of all
                        > sorts of illnesses and situations
                        > that could have be averted
                        > if they had gotten proper
                        > and immediate care? Sure!
                        > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                        > ECKists and his veiled threats
                        > are meaningless... unless
                        > you've given this Black
                        > Magician power over you!
                        >
                        > But, it seems that HK
                        > has something else stuck
                        > in his craw. It seems to
                        > me that Klemp doesn't
                        > like his 7ths just sitting
                        > still and Contemplating
                        > or HUing, and enjoying
                        > life. But why shouldn't
                        > they take it easy after
                        > 40 years of doing PR
                        > work for Eckankar!
                        >
                        > So, what does Klemp
                        > the All compassionate,
                        > loving, positive, and
                        > empathetic icon of EK
                        > conclude?
                        >
                        > "An H.I. who blatantly
                        > refuses to adhere to
                        > the ECK Guidelines
                        > needs to be addressed
                        > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                        > I wonder what that
                        > really means? Well,
                        > unless you're already
                        > a 7th you can kiss that
                        > next initiation good-bye
                        > for like 10-20 years!
                        >
                        > Klemp continues to say,
                        > "These are big stakes!
                        > Continued refusal means
                        > it's time for a replacement
                        > to step in. A change is
                        > due. Change. isn't it
                        > funny how we have come
                        > full circle?" No! It's not
                        > really funny. Klemp
                        > abuses the concept
                        > of "change" and makes
                        > it into a misnomer.
                        >
                        > What "changes" are there
                        > in Eckankar? The same
                        > old things are merely
                        > revisited, updated, dusted
                        > off and made to seem
                        > "new." It's all a facade,
                        > smoke and mirrors, and
                        > a game of pretend by
                        > creating brightly colored
                        > straws to grab at and
                        > cling to when drowning.
                        >
                        > Too bad that EKists are
                        > so deluded and needy
                        > and aren't able to read
                        > between the lines and
                        > see the real truth behind
                        > Klemp's words and methods.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                      • Janice Pfeiffer
                        I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off.  So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                        Message 11 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
                          I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off.  So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar.  I can't see it happening.  The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people. 
                           
                          Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get.  Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations. 
                           
                           I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was.  I just broke contact.  I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me.  I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all. 
                           
                          Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold.  It went in the trash.  This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone.  I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even. 
                           
                          How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else.  From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder.  Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.  Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org.  That is what is so sick about eckankar.  You either become a sheep or a wolf.  I wouldn't be either. 
                           
                          That is why I could not adjust to eckankar.  Seeing it was a freeing experience for me.  It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings.  I threw away all eckankar material.  I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others.  Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar.  Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top.  I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did. 
                           
                          The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving.  I feel pity for them.  A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time.  I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies. 
                           
                          Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth.  Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor.  I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me.  I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being.  Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth.  In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads. 
                           
                          I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual.  No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way.  Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate.  With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this. 
                           
                           I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much.  But maybe it  has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing  their brand of spiritual bondage.  And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord.  Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime. 
                           
                          I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones.  Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar.  I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will. 
                           
                          Eckankar can damn me all it will.  It has no hold on me.  It's even funny that they would do that.  They make a good force for their kal.  Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing.  Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned.  It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things. 
                           
                          Thank you all for being part of my journey.  You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself.  Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar.  That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master.  I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were.  Well, now you are. 
                           
                          Blessings to all of you.   
                           
                          --- On Fri, 12/14/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                          From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                          To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                          Date: Friday, December 14, 2012, 2:49 PM

                           
                          You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love. 

                          Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers. 

                          Good to be away from it. 


                          From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 10:42 PM
                          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                           
                          I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn't help but think "where is the Love".  But I was willing to think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly spiritually advanced people could not be unloving.  They would say awful things about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu sings and such like they were all good buddies.  I am a loyal type person to those who are my friends and those I think well of.  I could not understand these things coming from so called well developed people.  I even think a male that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at times although I don't know that to be a fact.  Also, some of the other females would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group.  I got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very disrespectful.  I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I could not form friendships with any of them.  It was what I read that held me in eckankar.  The quality of the people in the center was terrible.  It bothered me so bad that I sought a spiritual session.  I told the adviser what I was thinking.  Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself shocking.  She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and she preferred not to be involved with their activities.  It only made me feel more confused as a fairly new person.  I would perform tasks anytime I was asked but I started avoiding the center also.  Finally, seeing the truth about the teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away.  I decided that being a long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion.  it seems they open their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no matter who it was about.  Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be what they were.  It was crazy; all of it. 
                          --- On Thu, 12/13/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                          From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                          To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                          Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 2:03 PM

                           
                          I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

                          There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

                          Russ




                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                           
                          Hello Non eckchains and All,
                          What has me ROFLMAO is
                          that Klemp has enough of
                          a problem that he used it
                          in the ASK The MASTER
                          section of the H.I. Letter!
                          And, it was the only question!
                          They had, supposedly, an
                          H.I. write-in and point out
                          the problem. No name given.

                          I remember when I had
                          to deal with some older
                          H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                          coordinator and director
                          positions and it was
                          impossible to get this
                          one to follow the Guidelines
                          on EK Worship Services
                          (EWS). Many long-time
                          H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                          Guidelines and my
                          RESA turned a blind-
                          eye to it all. We had
                          so many former RESAs
                          in volunteer positions
                          that it was impossible
                          to get them on the
                          same page and to follow
                          procedures. I think
                          that some were just
                          burned out and tired
                          of Klemp's B.S. but
                          didn't want to leave.
                          Maybe they had too
                          many friendships to
                          lose. Plus, let's face
                          it. A lot of these people
                          are losers in the real
                          world but are big shots
                          in Eckankar. Those
                          Higher Initiations are
                          a big deal to the ego!

                          Prometheus


                          "Non" eckchains wrote:
                          It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                          don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                          offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                          over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                          even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                          Non ;)

                          prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello All,
                          > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                          > Letter I've read that
                          > Klemp still needs to
                          > update his Guidelines
                          > for the H.I.s in the
                          > field and chastise
                          > those who are slow
                          > to get with the program.
                          >
                          > Many long-time H.I.s
                          > want the freedom
                          > of Soul to be more
                          > individualistic,
                          > spontaneous, and
                          > creative by thinking
                          > they (Soul) can operate
                          > outside-of-the-box,
                          > thus, being channels
                          > for the ECK. Klemp
                          > has previously stated
                          > that he's imperfect,
                          > but that's not the case
                          > with the ECK, correct?
                          >
                          > Why, then, shouldn't
                          > their current (Present)
                          > Inner EK Guidance be
                          > followed versus that
                          > of outer set-in-stone
                          > ESC Guidelines printed
                          > in the Past and approved
                          > by a committee of imperfect
                          > people on a plane ruled
                          > by the KAL?
                          >
                          > H.I.s still haven't learned
                          > that freedom of expression
                          > doesn't work in Klemp's
                          > version of ECKankar.
                          > It's a hierarchy where
                          > everything is spelled
                          > out and controlled
                          > by him and his secret
                          > RESA police, plus, all
                          > field work must be
                          > approved via the
                          > current Guidelines.
                          >
                          > Many inexperienced
                          > EKists like the idea of
                          > being told how to do
                          > this or that and what
                          > approved books to use
                          > and what to say and
                          > other details to make
                          > the promotion of
                          > Eckankar easier.
                          >
                          > But the real point the
                          > ESC (Klemp) is making
                          > is to have EK PR more
                          > consistent and cookie
                          > cutter looking/sounding
                          > for the public.
                          >
                          > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                          > are like following a
                          > recipe set-in-stone
                          > that disregards individual
                          > or regional tastes and
                          > disallows any additions
                          > or omissions of other
                          > ingredients, methods,
                          > and/or spices.
                          >
                          > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                          > are about H.I.s resisting
                          > change. He says they "rock
                          > the boat" out of "fear" and
                          > that "it's all about fear."
                          > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                          > and "reinforce in each other
                          > a group's opposition to
                          > anything new." Strange
                          > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                          > subject to fear since he's
                          > supposed to protect them!
                          > This is how the KAL works.
                          > Klemp is his agent.
                          >
                          > However, the real 'change'
                          > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                          > Klemp's nonsense and
                          > heavy handed control tactics.
                          > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                          > the Freedom of Soul versus
                          > being bound to dogma.
                          > HK side-steps delivering
                          > on his promises of protection
                          > and never has anything
                          > profound to share. And,
                          > where are those Higher
                          > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                          > yardsticks in measuring
                          > Consciousness and Spiritual
                          > Growth? Klemp is playing
                          > the long-con and is, thus,
                          > stingy and self-serving.
                          >
                          > Harold goes on to say that
                          > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                          > on the path to God instead
                          > of being stepping stones."
                          > Apparently, being creative
                          > and spontaneous and
                          > following "Inner Nudges"
                          > and/or "Signs" are not
                          > permitted if it conflicts
                          > with the LEM's outer,
                          > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                          >
                          > The LEM states that, "We
                          > are here to learn." However,
                          > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                          > from others since he never
                          > listens? He's the Top goD
                          > and doesn't partake in
                          > two-way dialogues with
                          > those under his authority.
                          >
                          > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                          > and unloving as he continues
                          > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                          > believe that if they sit still
                          > and breathe only enough to
                          > sustain life that they may
                          > well dodge the lightning
                          > strikes of irksome change."
                          > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                          > like KAL! However, by doing
                          > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                          > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                          > Don't EKists still die of all
                          > sorts of illnesses and situations
                          > that could have be averted
                          > if they had gotten proper
                          > and immediate care? Sure!
                          > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                          > ECKists and his veiled threats
                          > are meaningless... unless
                          > you've given this Black
                          > Magician power over you!
                          >
                          > But, it seems that HK
                          > has something else stuck
                          > in his craw. It seems to
                          > me that Klemp doesn't
                          > like his 7ths just sitting
                          > still and Contemplating
                          > or HUing, and enjoying
                          > life. But why shouldn't
                          > they take it easy after
                          > 40 years of doing PR
                          > work for Eckankar!
                          >
                          > So, what does Klemp
                          > the All compassionate,
                          > loving, positive, and
                          > empathetic icon of EK
                          > conclude?
                          >
                          > "An H.I. who blatantly
                          > refuses to adhere to
                          > the ECK Guidelines
                          > needs to be addressed
                          > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                          > I wonder what that
                          > really means? Well,
                          > unless you're already
                          > a 7th you can kiss that
                          > next initiation good-bye
                          > for like 10-20 years!
                          >
                          > Klemp continues to say,
                          > "These are big stakes!
                          > Continued refusal means
                          > it's time for a replacement
                          > to step in. A change is
                          > due. Change. isn't it
                          > funny how we have come
                          > full circle?" No! It's not
                          > really funny. Klemp
                          > abuses the concept
                          > of "change" and makes
                          > it into a misnomer.
                          >
                          > What "changes" are there
                          > in Eckankar? The same
                          > old things are merely
                          > revisited, updated, dusted
                          > off and made to seem
                          > "new." It's all a facade,
                          > smoke and mirrors, and
                          > a game of pretend by
                          > creating brightly colored
                          > straws to grab at and
                          > cling to when drowning.
                          >
                          > Too bad that EKists are
                          > so deluded and needy
                          > and aren't able to read
                          > between the lines and
                          > see the real truth behind
                          > Klemp's words and methods.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >





                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Janice, Thanks for the interesting reply and the sharing of insights and experiences. I really really enjoyed it all. The reason why someone knew you
                          Message 12 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
                            Hello Janice,
                            Thanks for the interesting
                            reply and the sharing of
                            insights and experiences.
                            I really really enjoyed it
                            all.

                            The reason why someone
                            knew you received your
                            pink slip is because the
                            RESA gets an initiation
                            eligibility list where he/
                            she will mark yea/nay
                            for an initiation. When
                            the yea is checked the
                            ESC (membership services)
                            will more than likely issue
                            the pink slip for the initiation.
                            Or, the file has been red
                            flagged for some reason.
                            Klemp, I'm told, will put
                            a temporary hold on higher
                            initiations. Maybe it's due
                            to pending requirements
                            for training/retraining.
                            The ESC will notify the
                            RESA when the pink slip
                            is sent.

                            Most Eckists don't know
                            how the initiation process
                            works.

                            The RESA has a membership
                            list generated by the ESC
                            for all those EKists in their
                            region and it will show
                            initiation level, one's status
                            and date of membership
                            among other info. If a
                            new person sends in a
                            membership form to the
                            ESC from anywhere in
                            the RESA's region the RESA
                            will be notified of who
                            they are and their mailing
                            address.

                            I was glad Ford Johnson
                            wrote his book and that
                            I was told about it by an
                            Eckist who is still an H.I.
                            The Irony is that he was
                            doing Public Information
                            and was quite the gossip.

                            I always was the skeptic
                            and had trouble with a lot
                            of what I saw and experienced
                            around H.I.s.

                            When I was a lower initiate
                            I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                            spiritual nor anywhere close
                            to being enlightened. There
                            were too many contradictions,
                            restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                            Once you're an EK member
                            the next step is to get you
                            to become a volunteer on
                            HK's sales team.

                            I always wondered how
                            was there an "inner" connection
                            to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                            were still smoking and
                            drinking alcohol, but
                            getting promoted with
                            more initiations? I knew
                            of two 5ths who smoked
                            and drank and got pink
                            slips for the 6th. It's clear
                            that Klemp knows nothing
                            unless informed via phone
                            or snailmail... email now!

                            Yes, Janice, we were the
                            ones awakened to the Truth
                            while all of those "Higher"
                            (pretend) Initiates are still
                            sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                            become very skilled at
                            regurgitating the PR and
                            at facilitating and public
                            speaking. But, H.I.s have
                            no idea of what it's like
                            to be Free thinkers and
                            free of religion and of the
                            EK Hierarchy. They think
                            that their "spiritual experiences"
                            are unique when these
                            are common and similar
                            experiences that all religious
                            seekers have had... even
                            Christians!

                            Yes, we needed Eckankar
                            in order to fill a void and
                            to learn some important
                            lessons about ourselves
                            and about religion in general.

                            IMO, Those who left
                            Eckankar but still have
                            a need for religion, haven't
                            really learned that they
                            will never find answers
                            via a group consciousness
                            or via a guru/master.
                            True, it is nice to know
                            people of like mind and
                            to share things, but this
                            can be a bad thing as well
                            if we become too attached
                            or lazy and want to play
                            follow the leader again.

                            It all comes down to one's
                            private and personal experiences
                            and inner revelations with
                            oneSelf and with whatever
                            catalyst of "divine" creation.

                            Prometheus



                            Janice wrote:
                            I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                            Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                            I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                            Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                            How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                            That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                            The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                            Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                            I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                            I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                            I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                            Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                            Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                            Blessings to all of you.


                            prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                            > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                            > in Satsang Society "settler"
                            > and "explorer" positions at
                            > the EK Centers would trip
                            > over their egos and go on
                            > power trips. Many seemed
                            > cliquish and would huddle
                            > together. Then, again, some
                            > weren't all that friendly or
                            > were very introverted and
                            > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                            > including the clerics, to
                            > greet and talk to all of the
                            > new or seldom seen faces
                            > that showed up. Many
                            > only saw other Eckists at
                            > the monthly EWS and this
                            > was a time to catch up on
                            > things. This is why I'd
                            > suggest going to lunch
                            > after the EWS and socializing.
                            >
                            > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                            > True? I think so!
                            >
                            > Klemp's volunteer duties
                            > and requirements for Eckists
                            > means that they must take
                            > on extroverted roles in
                            > order to become H.I.s.
                            > Eckists must force themselves,
                            > against their innate natures,
                            > to become extroverted and
                            > egocentric. These leadership
                            > requirements create conflict,
                            > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                            > Thus, this imbalance that
                            > Klemp has created and
                            > reenforces aids him in
                            > the brainwashing of his
                            > flock to have programmed
                            > religious faith, beliefs, and
                            > mystical experiences. But,
                            > this has its toll and is why
                            > many long-time H.I.s choose
                            > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                            > and his anal control tactics.
                            >
                            > Sometimes, at special
                            > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                            > and mini retreats the
                            > long-time H.I.s, former
                            > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                            > members would gather
                            > around and gossip about
                            > those absent or present.
                            > Only, it wasn't seen as
                            > gossip but rationalized
                            > as more of an evaluative/
                            > investigative discussion
                            > for possible initiation
                            > recommendation or for
                            > a Satsang position appointment.
                            > They wanted to know,
                            > from sources who knew
                            > them, if there were problems
                            > with these EKists and, if
                            > so, what the specific details
                            > were. It was all ego driven
                            > and subjective because we
                            > were all volunteers and
                            > had family and personal
                            > lives too. But, it did weed
                            > out those who weren't as
                            > well indoctrinated....
                            > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                            > crap (busy work) was pretty
                            > much always a waste of
                            > time so, in the long run,
                            > enthusiasm was probably
                            > more important than acting
                            > the part. The Satsang positions
                            > and duties kept people
                            > busy, gave them a purpose
                            > and made them feel good,
                            > although, very stressed out.
                            >
                            > The Initiation game has made
                            > Eckists struggle with denying
                            > how much more they want of
                            > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                            >
                            > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                            > that an ESA told you that the
                            > people at the EK Center were
                            > crazy. That just isn't done
                            > and is part of HK's agenda
                            > of Silence and retraining.
                            >
                            > There's that old Buddha quote
                            > that Eckists sing and talk about
                            > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                            > and this is supposed to keep
                            > ECKists quiet or else they will
                            > sometimes get reported:
                            > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                            > this I ask myself before I
                            > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                            > following this criteria is very
                            > subjective and could or would
                            > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                            > conservations.
                            >
                            > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                            > may be "true" for you and
                            > for most people but not
                            > not for all people. And, is
                            > it "necessary" to exclaim
                            > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                            > this within earshot of people
                            > who aren't feeling well or
                            > who can't enjoy the day?
                            > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                            > to keep the critics of his
                            > policies and of his H.I.s
                            > to a minimum.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                            > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                            > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                            > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                            > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                            > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                            > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                            > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                            > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                            > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                            >
                            > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                            > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                            >
                            > Good to be away from it.
                            >
                            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            >
                            > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                            > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                            > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                            > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                            > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                            > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                            > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                            > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                            > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                            > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                            > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                            > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                            > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                            > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                            > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                            > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                            > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                            > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                            > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                            > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                            > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                            > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                            > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                            > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                            > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                            > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                            > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                            > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                            >
                            > Russ wrote:
                            > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                            > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                            > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                            > made him so popular in the eck community.
                            >
                            > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                            > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                            > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                            > things.
                            >
                            > Russ
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                            > What has me ROFLMAO is
                            > that Klemp has enough of
                            > a problem that he used it
                            > in the ASK The MASTER
                            > section of the H.I. Letter!
                            > And, it was the only question!
                            > They had, supposedly, an
                            > H.I. write-in and point out
                            > the problem. No name given.
                            >
                            > I remember when I had
                            > to deal with some older
                            > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                            > coordinator and director
                            > positions and it was
                            > impossible to get this
                            > one to follow the Guidelines
                            > on EK Worship Services
                            > (EWS). Many long-time
                            > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                            > Guidelines and my
                            > RESA turned a blind-
                            > eye to it all. We had
                            > so many former RESAs
                            > in volunteer positions
                            > that it was impossible
                            > to get them on the
                            > same page and to follow
                            > procedures. I think
                            > that some were just
                            > burned out and tired
                            > of Klemp's B.S. but
                            > didn't want to leave.
                            > Maybe they had too
                            > many friendships to
                            > lose. Plus, let's face
                            > it. A lot of these people
                            > are losers in the real
                            > world but are big shots
                            > in Eckankar. Those
                            > Higher Initiations are
                            > a big deal to the ego!
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                            > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                            > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                            > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                            > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                            > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                            >
                            > Non ;)
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hello All,
                            > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                            > > Letter I've read that
                            > > Klemp still needs to
                            > > update his Guidelines
                            > > for the H.I.s in the
                            > > field and chastise
                            > > those who are slow
                            > > to get with the program.
                            > >
                            > > Many long-time H.I.s
                            > > want the freedom
                            > > of Soul to be more
                            > > individualistic,
                            > > spontaneous, and
                            > > creative by thinking
                            > > they (Soul) can operate
                            > > outside-of-the-box,
                            > > thus, being channels
                            > > for the ECK. Klemp
                            > > has previously stated
                            > > that he's imperfect,
                            > > but that's not the case
                            > > with the ECK, correct?
                            > >
                            > > Why, then, shouldn't
                            > > their current (Present)
                            > > Inner EK Guidance be
                            > > followed versus that
                            > > of outer set-in-stone
                            > > ESC Guidelines printed
                            > > in the Past and approved
                            > > by a committee of imperfect
                            > > people on a plane ruled
                            > > by the KAL?
                            > >
                            > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                            > > that freedom of expression
                            > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                            > > version of ECKankar.
                            > > It's a hierarchy where
                            > > everything is spelled
                            > > out and controlled
                            > > by him and his secret
                            > > RESA police, plus, all
                            > > field work must be
                            > > approved via the
                            > > current Guidelines.
                            > >
                            > > Many inexperienced
                            > > EKists like the idea of
                            > > being told how to do
                            > > this or that and what
                            > > approved books to use
                            > > and what to say and
                            > > other details to make
                            > > the promotion of
                            > > Eckankar easier.
                            > >
                            > > But the real point the
                            > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                            > > is to have EK PR more
                            > > consistent and cookie
                            > > cutter looking/sounding
                            > > for the public.
                            > >
                            > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                            > > are like following a
                            > > recipe set-in-stone
                            > > that disregards individual
                            > > or regional tastes and
                            > > disallows any additions
                            > > or omissions of other
                            > > ingredients, methods,
                            > > and/or spices.
                            > >
                            > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                            > > are about H.I.s resisting
                            > > change. He says they "rock
                            > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                            > > that "it's all about fear."
                            > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                            > > and "reinforce in each other
                            > > a group's opposition to
                            > > anything new." Strange
                            > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                            > > subject to fear since he's
                            > > supposed to protect them!
                            > > This is how the KAL works.
                            > > Klemp is his agent.
                            > >
                            > > However, the real 'change'
                            > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                            > > Klemp's nonsense and
                            > > heavy handed control tactics.
                            > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                            > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                            > > being bound to dogma.
                            > > HK side-steps delivering
                            > > on his promises of protection
                            > > and never has anything
                            > > profound to share. And,
                            > > where are those Higher
                            > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                            > > yardsticks in measuring
                            > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                            > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                            > > the long-con and is, thus,
                            > > stingy and self-serving.
                            > >
                            > > Harold goes on to say that
                            > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                            > > on the path to God instead
                            > > of being stepping stones."
                            > > Apparently, being creative
                            > > and spontaneous and
                            > > following "Inner Nudges"
                            > > and/or "Signs" are not
                            > > permitted if it conflicts
                            > > with the LEM's outer,
                            > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                            > >
                            > > The LEM states that, "We
                            > > are here to learn." However,
                            > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                            > > from others since he never
                            > > listens? He's the Top goD
                            > > and doesn't partake in
                            > > two-way dialogues with
                            > > those under his authority.
                            > >
                            > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                            > > and unloving as he continues
                            > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                            > > believe that if they sit still
                            > > and breathe only enough to
                            > > sustain life that they may
                            > > well dodge the lightning
                            > > strikes of irksome change."
                            > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                            > > like KAL! However, by doing
                            > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                            > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                            > > Don't EKists still die of all
                            > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                            > > that could have be averted
                            > > if they had gotten proper
                            > > and immediate care? Sure!
                            > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                            > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                            > > are meaningless... unless
                            > > you've given this Black
                            > > Magician power over you!
                            > >
                            > > But, it seems that HK
                            > > has something else stuck
                            > > in his craw. It seems to
                            > > me that Klemp doesn't
                            > > like his 7ths just sitting
                            > > still and Contemplating
                            > > or HUing, and enjoying
                            > > life. But why shouldn't
                            > > they take it easy after
                            > > 40 years of doing PR
                            > > work for Eckankar!
                            > >
                            > > So, what does Klemp
                            > > the All compassionate,
                            > > loving, positive, and
                            > > empathetic icon of EK
                            > > conclude?
                            > >
                            > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                            > > refuses to adhere to
                            > > the ECK Guidelines
                            > > needs to be addressed
                            > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                            > > I wonder what that
                            > > really means? Well,
                            > > unless you're already
                            > > a 7th you can kiss that
                            > > next initiation good-bye
                            > > for like 10-20 years!
                            > >
                            > > Klemp continues to say,
                            > > "These are big stakes!
                            > > Continued refusal means
                            > > it's time for a replacement
                            > > to step in. A change is
                            > > due. Change. isn't it
                            > > funny how we have come
                            > > full circle?" No! It's not
                            > > really funny. Klemp
                            > > abuses the concept
                            > > of "change" and makes
                            > > it into a misnomer.
                            > >
                            > > What "changes" are there
                            > > in Eckankar? The same
                            > > old things are merely
                            > > revisited, updated, dusted
                            > > off and made to seem
                            > > "new." It's all a facade,
                            > > smoke and mirrors, and
                            > > a game of pretend by
                            > > creating brightly colored
                            > > straws to grab at and
                            > > cling to when drowning.
                            > >
                            > > Too bad that EKists are
                            > > so deluded and needy
                            > > and aren't able to read
                            > > between the lines and
                            > > see the real truth behind
                            > > Klemp's words and methods.
                            > >
                            > > Prometheus
                            >
                          • Janice Pfeiffer
                            Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.    Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it
                            Message 13 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
                              Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                               
                              Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                               
                              That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                               
                              In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                               
                               I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                               
                              The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                               
                              It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                               
                              When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                               
                              Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                               
                              I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                              --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                               
                              Hello Janice,
                              Thanks for the interesting
                              reply and the sharing of
                              insights and experiences.
                              I really really enjoyed it
                              all.

                              The reason why someone
                              knew you received your
                              pink slip is because the
                              RESA gets an initiation
                              eligibility list where he/
                              she will mark yea/nay
                              for an initiation. When
                              the yea is checked the
                              ESC (membership services)
                              will more than likely issue
                              the pink slip for the initiation.
                              Or, the file has been red
                              flagged for some reason.
                              Klemp, I'm told, will put
                              a temporary hold on higher
                              initiations. Maybe it's due
                              to pending requirements
                              for training/retraining.
                              The ESC will notify the
                              RESA when the pink slip
                              is sent.

                              Most Eckists don't know
                              how the initiation process
                              works.

                              The RESA has a membership
                              list generated by the ESC
                              for all those EKists in their
                              region and it will show
                              initiation level, one's status
                              and date of membership
                              among other info. If a
                              new person sends in a
                              membership form to the
                              ESC from anywhere in
                              the RESA's region the RESA
                              will be notified of who
                              they are and their mailing
                              address.

                              I was glad Ford Johnson
                              wrote his book and that
                              I was told about it by an
                              Eckist who is still an H.I.
                              The Irony is that he was
                              doing Public Information
                              and was quite the gossip.

                              I always was the skeptic
                              and had trouble with a lot
                              of what I saw and experienced
                              around H.I.s.

                              When I was a lower initiate
                              I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                              spiritual nor anywhere close
                              to being enlightened. There
                              were too many contradictions,
                              restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                              Once you're an EK member
                              the next step is to get you
                              to become a volunteer on
                              HK's sales team.

                              I always wondered how
                              was there an "inner" connection
                              to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                              were still smoking and
                              drinking alcohol, but
                              getting promoted with
                              more initiations? I knew
                              of two 5ths who smoked
                              and drank and got pink
                              slips for the 6th. It's clear
                              that Klemp knows nothing
                              unless informed via phone
                              or snailmail... email now!

                              Yes, Janice, we were the
                              ones awakened to the Truth
                              while all of those "Higher"
                              (pretend) Initiates are still
                              sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                              become very skilled at
                              regurgitating the PR and
                              at facilitating and public
                              speaking. But, H.I.s have
                              no idea of what it's like
                              to be Free thinkers and
                              free of religion and of the
                              EK Hierarchy. They think
                              that their "spiritual experiences"
                              are unique when these
                              are common and similar
                              experiences that all religious
                              seekers have had... even
                              Christians!

                              Yes, we needed Eckankar
                              in order to fill a void and
                              to learn some important
                              lessons about ourselves
                              and about religion in general.

                              IMO, Those who left
                              Eckankar but still have
                              a need for religion, haven't
                              really learned that they
                              will never find answers
                              via a group consciousness
                              or via a guru/master.
                              True, it is nice to know
                              people of like mind and
                              to share things, but this
                              can be a bad thing as well
                              if we become too attached
                              or lazy and want to play
                              follow the leader again.

                              It all comes down to one's
                              private and personal experiences
                              and inner revelations with
                              oneSelf and with whatever
                              catalyst of "divine" creation.

                              Prometheus

                              Janice wrote:
                              I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                              Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                              I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                              Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                              How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                              That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                              The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                              Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                              I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                              I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                              I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                              Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                              Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                              Blessings to all of you.


                              prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                              > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                              > in Satsang Society "settler"
                              > and "explorer" positions at
                              > the EK Centers would trip
                              > over their egos and go on
                              > power trips. Many seemed
                              > cliquish and would huddle
                              > together. Then, again, some
                              > weren't all that friendly or
                              > were very introverted and
                              > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                              > including the clerics, to
                              > greet and talk to all of the
                              > new or seldom seen faces
                              > that showed up. Many
                              > only saw other Eckists at
                              > the monthly EWS and this
                              > was a time to catch up on
                              > things. This is why I'd
                              > suggest going to lunch
                              > after the EWS and socializing.
                              >
                              > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                              > True? I think so!
                              >
                              > Klemp's volunteer duties
                              > and requirements for Eckists
                              > means that they must take
                              > on extroverted roles in
                              > order to become H.I.s.
                              > Eckists must force themselves,
                              > against their innate natures,
                              > to become extroverted and
                              > egocentric. These leadership
                              > requirements create conflict,
                              > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                              > Thus, this imbalance that
                              > Klemp has created and
                              > reenforces aids him in
                              > the brainwashing of his
                              > flock to have programmed
                              > religious faith, beliefs, and
                              > mystical experiences. But,
                              > this has its toll and is why
                              > many long-time H.I.s choose
                              > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                              > and his anal control tactics.
                              >
                              > Sometimes, at special
                              > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                              > and mini retreats the
                              > long-time H.I.s, former
                              > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                              > members would gather
                              > around and gossip about
                              > those absent or present.
                              > Only, it wasn't seen as
                              > gossip but rationalized
                              > as more of an evaluative/
                              > investigative discussion
                              > for possible initiation
                              > recommendation or for
                              > a Satsang position appointment.
                              > They wanted to know,
                              > from sources who knew
                              > them, if there were problems
                              > with these EKists and, if
                              > so, what the specific details
                              > were. It was all ego driven
                              > and subjective because we
                              > were all volunteers and
                              > had family and personal
                              > lives too. But, it did weed
                              > out those who weren't as
                              > well indoctrinated....
                              > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                              > crap (busy work) was pretty
                              > much always a waste of
                              > time so, in the long run,
                              > enthusiasm was probably
                              > more important than acting
                              > the part. The Satsang positions
                              > and duties kept people
                              > busy, gave them a purpose
                              > and made them feel good,
                              > although, very stressed out.
                              >
                              > The Initiation game has made
                              > Eckists struggle with denying
                              > how much more they want of
                              > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                              >
                              > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                              > that an ESA told you that the
                              > people at the EK Center were
                              > crazy. That just isn't done
                              > and is part of HK's agenda
                              > of Silence and retraining.
                              >
                              > There's that old Buddha quote
                              > that Eckists sing and talk about
                              > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                              > and this is supposed to keep
                              > ECKists quiet or else they will
                              > sometimes get reported:
                              > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                              > this I ask myself before I
                              > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                              > following this criteria is very
                              > subjective and could or would
                              > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                              > conservations.
                              >
                              > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                              > may be "true" for you and
                              > for most people but not
                              > not for all people. And, is
                              > it "necessary" to exclaim
                              > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                              > this within earshot of people
                              > who aren't feeling well or
                              > who can't enjoy the day?
                              > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                              > to keep the critics of his
                              > policies and of his H.I.s
                              > to a minimum.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                              > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                              > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                              > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                              > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                              > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                              > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                              > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                              > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                              > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                              >
                              > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                              > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                              >
                              > Good to be away from it.
                              >
                              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              >
                              > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                              > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                              > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                              > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                              > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                              > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                              > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                              > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                              > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                              > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                              > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                              > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                              > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                              > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                              > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                              > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                              > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                              > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                              > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                              > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                              > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                              > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                              > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                              > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                              > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                              > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                              > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                              > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                              >
                              > Russ wrote:
                              > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                              > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                              > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                              > made him so popular in the eck community.
                              >
                              > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                              > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                              > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                              > things.
                              >
                              > Russ
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                              > What has me ROFLMAO is
                              > that Klemp has enough of
                              > a problem that he used it
                              > in the ASK The MASTER
                              > section of the H.I. Letter!
                              > And, it was the only question!
                              > They had, supposedly, an
                              > H.I. write-in and point out
                              > the problem. No name given.
                              >
                              > I remember when I had
                              > to deal with some older
                              > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                              > coordinator and director
                              > positions and it was
                              > impossible to get this
                              > one to follow the Guidelines
                              > on EK Worship Services
                              > (EWS). Many long-time
                              > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                              > Guidelines and my
                              > RESA turned a blind-
                              > eye to it all. We had
                              > so many former RESAs
                              > in volunteer positions
                              > that it was impossible
                              > to get them on the
                              > same page and to follow
                              > procedures. I think
                              > that some were just
                              > burned out and tired
                              > of Klemp's B.S. but
                              > didn't want to leave.
                              > Maybe they had too
                              > many friendships to
                              > lose. Plus, let's face
                              > it. A lot of these people
                              > are losers in the real
                              > world but are big shots
                              > in Eckankar. Those
                              > Higher Initiations are
                              > a big deal to the ego!
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                              > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                              > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                              > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                              > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                              > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                              >
                              > Non ;)
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello All,
                              > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                              > > Letter I've read that
                              > > Klemp still needs to
                              > > update his Guidelines
                              > > for the H.I.s in the
                              > > field and chastise
                              > > those who are slow
                              > > to get with the program.
                              > >
                              > > Many long-time H.I.s
                              > > want the freedom
                              > > of Soul to be more
                              > > individualistic,
                              > > spontaneous, and
                              > > creative by thinking
                              > > they (Soul) can operate
                              > > outside-of-the-box,
                              > > thus, being channels
                              > > for the ECK. Klemp
                              > > has previously stated
                              > > that he's imperfect,
                              > > but that's not the case
                              > > with the ECK, correct?
                              > >
                              > > Why, then, shouldn't
                              > > their current (Present)
                              > > Inner EK Guidance be
                              > > followed versus that
                              > > of outer set-in-stone
                              > > ESC Guidelines printed
                              > > in the Past and approved
                              > > by a committee of imperfect
                              > > people on a plane ruled
                              > > by the KAL?
                              > >
                              > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                              > > that freedom of expression
                              > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                              > > version of ECKankar.
                              > > It's a hierarchy where
                              > > everything is spelled
                              > > out and controlled
                              > > by him and his secret
                              > > RESA police, plus, all
                              > > field work must be
                              > > approved via the
                              > > current Guidelines.
                              > >
                              > > Many inexperienced
                              > > EKists like the idea of
                              > > being told how to do
                              > > this or that and what
                              > > approved books to use
                              > > and what to say and
                              > > other details to make
                              > > the promotion of
                              > > Eckankar easier.
                              > >
                              > > But the real point the
                              > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                              > > is to have EK PR more
                              > > consistent and cookie
                              > > cutter looking/sounding
                              > > for the public.
                              > >
                              > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                              > > are like following a
                              > > recipe set-in-stone
                              > > that disregards individual
                              > > or regional tastes and
                              > > disallows any additions
                              > > or omissions of other
                              > > ingredients, methods,
                              > > and/or spices.
                              > >
                              > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                              > > are about H.I.s resisting
                              > > change. He says they "rock
                              > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                              > > that "it's all about fear."
                              > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                              > > and "reinforce in each other
                              > > a group's opposition to
                              > > anything new." Strange
                              > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                              > > subject to fear since he's
                              > > supposed to protect them!
                              > > This is how the KAL works.
                              > > Klemp is his agent.
                              > >
                              > > However, the real 'change'
                              > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                              > > Klemp's nonsense and
                              > > heavy handed control tactics.
                              > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                              > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                              > > being bound to dogma.
                              > > HK side-steps delivering
                              > > on his promises of protection
                              > > and never has anything
                              > > profound to share. And,
                              > > where are those Higher
                              > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                              > > yardsticks in measuring
                              > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                              > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                              > > the long-con and is, thus,
                              > > stingy and self-serving.
                              > >
                              > > Harold goes on to say that
                              > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                              > > on the path to God instead
                              > > of being stepping stones."
                              > > Apparently, being creative
                              > > and spontaneous and
                              > > following "Inner Nudges"
                              > > and/or "Signs" are not
                              > > permitted if it conflicts
                              > > with the LEM's outer,
                              > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                              > >
                              > > The LEM states that, "We
                              > > are here to learn." However,
                              > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                              > > from others since he never
                              > > listens? He's the Top goD
                              > > and doesn't partake in
                              > > two-way dialogues with
                              > > those under his authority.
                              > >
                              > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                              > > and unloving as he continues
                              > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                              > > believe that if they sit still
                              > > and breathe only enough to
                              > > sustain life that they may
                              > > well dodge the lightning
                              > > strikes of irksome change."
                              > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                              > > like KAL! However, by doing
                              > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                              > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                              > > Don't EKists still die of all
                              > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                              > > that could have be averted
                              > > if they had gotten proper
                              > > and immediate care? Sure!
                              > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                              > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                              > > are meaningless... unless
                              > > you've given this Black
                              > > Magician power over you!
                              > >
                              > > But, it seems that HK
                              > > has something else stuck
                              > > in his craw. It seems to
                              > > me that Klemp doesn't
                              > > like his 7ths just sitting
                              > > still and Contemplating
                              > > or HUing, and enjoying
                              > > life. But why shouldn't
                              > > they take it easy after
                              > > 40 years of doing PR
                              > > work for Eckankar!
                              > >
                              > > So, what does Klemp
                              > > the All compassionate,
                              > > loving, positive, and
                              > > empathetic icon of EK
                              > > conclude?
                              > >
                              > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                              > > refuses to adhere to
                              > > the ECK Guidelines
                              > > needs to be addressed
                              > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                              > > I wonder what that
                              > > really means? Well,
                              > > unless you're already
                              > > a 7th you can kiss that
                              > > next initiation good-bye
                              > > for like 10-20 years!
                              > >
                              > > Klemp continues to say,
                              > > "These are big stakes!
                              > > Continued refusal means
                              > > it's time for a replacement
                              > > to step in. A change is
                              > > due. Change. isn't it
                              > > funny how we have come
                              > > full circle?" No! It's not
                              > > really funny. Klemp
                              > > abuses the concept
                              > > of "change" and makes
                              > > it into a misnomer.
                              > >
                              > > What "changes" are there
                              > > in Eckankar? The same
                              > > old things are merely
                              > > revisited, updated, dusted
                              > > off and made to seem
                              > > "new." It's all a facade,
                              > > smoke and mirrors, and
                              > > a game of pretend by
                              > > creating brightly colored
                              > > straws to grab at and
                              > > cling to when drowning.
                              > >
                              > > Too bad that EKists are
                              > > so deluded and needy
                              > > and aren't able to read
                              > > between the lines and
                              > > see the real truth behind
                              > > Klemp's words and methods.
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              >

                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Janice, Most H.I.s have no idea how the EK Initiation process works. It s sad because there are some really nice and gentile chelas who have been passed
                              Message 14 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
                                Hello Janice,
                                Most H.I.s have no idea
                                how the EK Initiation
                                process works. It's sad
                                because there are some
                                really nice and gentile
                                chelas who have been
                                passed over on the 5th.
                                Some died as 4ths when
                                they should have had
                                some happiness, peace
                                of mind, and contentment
                                by receiving that 5th.
                                I've know several eckists
                                where this has happened.
                                It was no big deal to give
                                them their 5th initiation,
                                but some RESAs are mean-
                                spirited, lack empathy,
                                and are petty. They've
                                gotten caught up in HK's
                                game. All Eckists should
                                get the 5th after no more
                                than 20 years, especially,
                                when they participate
                                and are kept current on
                                their membership. However,
                                that's not the way the
                                power trip is played by
                                some RESAs.

                                I hate to admit this but
                                I helped the RESA when
                                asked about people. I
                                was quizzed about those
                                up for, usually, the 5th
                                and 6th initiation. I was
                                asked about what the EKist
                                said, how they acted and
                                conducted themselves
                                and any unusual things
                                that I noticed about
                                their behavior or performance.
                                And then I was asked for
                                my opinion. Unfortunately
                                my replies, I know, had
                                some initiations delayed
                                for these people and I
                                regret that I got caught
                                up in this petty mind game.
                                Some of these people are
                                still H.I.s and have no idea
                                why they had to wait so
                                long for their 5th or 6th.
                                Many probably think that
                                the Mahanta was testing
                                them! LOL! On the other
                                hand maybe some of them,
                                by now, have been asked
                                to evaluate people too.
                                I wonder if they put two
                                and two together and
                                figured it out, unless,
                                they were told why like
                                I had been told.

                                Why, though, should
                                Klemp have a system
                                for initiations that judges
                                and punishes Eckists
                                based upon our evaluations?
                                Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                of the Mahanta?

                                Besides, a 5th is no big
                                deal, and it's not like one
                                becomes a cleric automatically
                                with a 5th. Really, being
                                an 5th is no more being
                                an official representative
                                of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                Yes, most Eckists have
                                no idea that a computer
                                generated eligibility list
                                is sent to the RESA by the
                                ESC and that phone calls
                                are made asking questions
                                where subjective answers
                                are given and that the RESA
                                uses these to either approve
                                and give a recommendation
                                for initiation or doesn't.
                                However, I will say that
                                any "No" has to have an
                                valid reason. The ESC
                                usually follows the RESAs'
                                recommendations.

                                BTW- Janice, I think that
                                your RESA approved of
                                your initiation because
                                he felt guilty for having
                                yelled at you, plus, you
                                could have reported him
                                to the ESC. Maybe the
                                initiation approval was
                                meant to appease you?

                                Prometheus



                                Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person?

                                That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless.

                                In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all.

                                The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his time and hung up.

                                It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if that was part of it.

                                When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It was enough.

                                Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                prometheus wrote:

                                Hello Janice,
                                Thanks for the interesting
                                reply and the sharing of
                                insights and experiences.
                                I really really enjoyed it
                                all.

                                The reason why someone
                                knew you received your
                                pink slip is because the
                                RESA gets an initiation
                                eligibility list where he/
                                she will mark yea/nay
                                for an initiation. When
                                the yea is checked the
                                ESC (membership services)
                                will more than likely issue
                                the pink slip for the initiation.
                                Or, the file has been red
                                flagged for some reason.
                                Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                a temporary hold on higher
                                initiations. Maybe it's due
                                to pending requirements
                                for training/retraining.
                                The ESC will notify the
                                RESA when the pink slip
                                is sent.

                                Most Eckists don't know
                                how the initiation process
                                works.

                                The RESA has a membership
                                list generated by the ESC
                                for all those EKists in their
                                region and it will show
                                initiation level, one's status
                                and date of membership
                                among other info. If a
                                new person sends in a
                                membership form to the
                                ESC from anywhere in
                                the RESA's region the RESA
                                will be notified of who
                                they are and their mailing
                                address.

                                I was glad Ford Johnson
                                wrote his book and that
                                I was told about it by an
                                Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                The Irony is that he was
                                doing Public Information
                                and was quite the gossip.

                                I always was the skeptic
                                and had trouble with a lot
                                of what I saw and experienced
                                around H.I.s.

                                When I was a lower initiate
                                I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                spiritual nor anywhere close
                                to being enlightened. There
                                were too many contradictions,
                                restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                Once you're an EK member
                                the next step is to get you
                                to become a volunteer on
                                HK's sales team.

                                I always wondered how
                                was there an "inner" connection
                                to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                were still smoking and
                                drinking alcohol, but
                                getting promoted with
                                more initiations? I knew
                                of two 5ths who smoked
                                and drank and got pink
                                slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                that Klemp knows nothing
                                unless informed via phone
                                or snailmail... email now!

                                Yes, Janice, we were the
                                ones awakened to the Truth
                                while all of those "Higher"
                                (pretend) Initiates are still
                                sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                become very skilled at
                                regurgitating the PR and
                                at facilitating and public
                                speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                no idea of what it's like
                                to be Free thinkers and
                                free of religion and of the
                                EK Hierarchy. They think
                                that their "spiritual experiences"
                                are unique when these
                                are common and similar
                                experiences that all religious
                                seekers have had... even
                                Christians!

                                Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                in order to fill a void and
                                to learn some important
                                lessons about ourselves
                                and about religion in general.

                                IMO, Those who left
                                Eckankar but still have
                                a need for religion, haven't
                                really learned that they
                                will never find answers
                                via a group consciousness
                                or via a guru/master.
                                True, it is nice to know
                                people of like mind and
                                to share things, but this
                                can be a bad thing as well
                                if we become too attached
                                or lazy and want to play
                                follow the leader again.

                                It all comes down to one's
                                private and personal experiences
                                and inner revelations with
                                oneSelf and with whatever
                                catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                Prometheus

                                Janice wrote:
                                I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                Blessings to all of you.


                                prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                > and "explorer" positions at
                                > the EK Centers would trip
                                > over their egos and go on
                                > power trips. Many seemed
                                > cliquish and would huddle
                                > together. Then, again, some
                                > weren't all that friendly or
                                > were very introverted and
                                > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                > including the clerics, to
                                > greet and talk to all of the
                                > new or seldom seen faces
                                > that showed up. Many
                                > only saw other Eckists at
                                > the monthly EWS and this
                                > was a time to catch up on
                                > things. This is why I'd
                                > suggest going to lunch
                                > after the EWS and socializing.
                                >
                                > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                > True? I think so!
                                >
                                > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                > and requirements for Eckists
                                > means that they must take
                                > on extroverted roles in
                                > order to become H.I.s.
                                > Eckists must force themselves,
                                > against their innate natures,
                                > to become extroverted and
                                > egocentric. These leadership
                                > requirements create conflict,
                                > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                > Thus, this imbalance that
                                > Klemp has created and
                                > reenforces aids him in
                                > the brainwashing of his
                                > flock to have programmed
                                > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                > mystical experiences. But,
                                > this has its toll and is why
                                > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                > and his anal control tactics.
                                >
                                > Sometimes, at special
                                > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                > and mini retreats the
                                > long-time H.I.s, former
                                > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                > members would gather
                                > around and gossip about
                                > those absent or present.
                                > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                > gossip but rationalized
                                > as more of an evaluative/
                                > investigative discussion
                                > for possible initiation
                                > recommendation or for
                                > a Satsang position appointment.
                                > They wanted to know,
                                > from sources who knew
                                > them, if there were problems
                                > with these EKists and, if
                                > so, what the specific details
                                > were. It was all ego driven
                                > and subjective because we
                                > were all volunteers and
                                > had family and personal
                                > lives too. But, it did weed
                                > out those who weren't as
                                > well indoctrinated....
                                > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                > much always a waste of
                                > time so, in the long run,
                                > enthusiasm was probably
                                > more important than acting
                                > the part. The Satsang positions
                                > and duties kept people
                                > busy, gave them a purpose
                                > and made them feel good,
                                > although, very stressed out.
                                >
                                > The Initiation game has made
                                > Eckists struggle with denying
                                > how much more they want of
                                > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                >
                                > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                > that an ESA told you that the
                                > people at the EK Center were
                                > crazy. That just isn't done
                                > and is part of HK's agenda
                                > of Silence and retraining.
                                >
                                > There's that old Buddha quote
                                > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                > and this is supposed to keep
                                > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                > sometimes get reported:
                                > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                > this I ask myself before I
                                > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                > following this criteria is very
                                > subjective and could or would
                                > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                > conservations.
                                >
                                > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                > may be "true" for you and
                                > for most people but not
                                > not for all people. And, is
                                > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                > this within earshot of people
                                > who aren't feeling well or
                                > who can't enjoy the day?
                                > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                > to keep the critics of his
                                > policies and of his H.I.s
                                > to a minimum.
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                >
                                > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                >
                                > Good to be away from it.
                                >
                                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                >
                                > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                >
                                > Russ wrote:
                                > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                >
                                > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                > things.
                                >
                                > Russ
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > prometheus wrote:
                                > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                > that Klemp has enough of
                                > a problem that he used it
                                > in the ASK The MASTER
                                > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                > And, it was the only question!
                                > They had, supposedly, an
                                > H.I. write-in and point out
                                > the problem. No name given.
                                >
                                > I remember when I had
                                > to deal with some older
                                > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                > coordinator and director
                                > positions and it was
                                > impossible to get this
                                > one to follow the Guidelines
                                > on EK Worship Services
                                > (EWS). Many long-time
                                > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                > Guidelines and my
                                > RESA turned a blind-
                                > eye to it all. We had
                                > so many former RESAs
                                > in volunteer positions
                                > that it was impossible
                                > to get them on the
                                > same page and to follow
                                > procedures. I think
                                > that some were just
                                > burned out and tired
                                > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                > didn't want to leave.
                                > Maybe they had too
                                > many friendships to
                                > lose. Plus, let's face
                                > it. A lot of these people
                                > are losers in the real
                                > world but are big shots
                                > in Eckankar. Those
                                > Higher Initiations are
                                > a big deal to the ego!
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                >
                                > Non ;)
                                >
                                > prometheus wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello All,
                                > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                > > Letter I've read that
                                > > Klemp still needs to
                                > > update his Guidelines
                                > > for the H.I.s in the
                                > > field and chastise
                                > > those who are slow
                                > > to get with the program.
                                > >
                                > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                > > want the freedom
                                > > of Soul to be more
                                > > individualistic,
                                > > spontaneous, and
                                > > creative by thinking
                                > > they (Soul) can operate
                                > > outside-of-the-box,
                                > > thus, being channels
                                > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                > > has previously stated
                                > > that he's imperfect,
                                > > but that's not the case
                                > > with the ECK, correct?
                                > >
                                > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                > > their current (Present)
                                > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                > > followed versus that
                                > > of outer set-in-stone
                                > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                > > in the Past and approved
                                > > by a committee of imperfect
                                > > people on a plane ruled
                                > > by the KAL?
                                > >
                                > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                > > that freedom of expression
                                > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                > > version of ECKankar.
                                > > It's a hierarchy where
                                > > everything is spelled
                                > > out and controlled
                                > > by him and his secret
                                > > RESA police, plus, all
                                > > field work must be
                                > > approved via the
                                > > current Guidelines.
                                > >
                                > > Many inexperienced
                                > > EKists like the idea of
                                > > being told how to do
                                > > this or that and what
                                > > approved books to use
                                > > and what to say and
                                > > other details to make
                                > > the promotion of
                                > > Eckankar easier.
                                > >
                                > > But the real point the
                                > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                > > is to have EK PR more
                                > > consistent and cookie
                                > > cutter looking/sounding
                                > > for the public.
                                > >
                                > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                > > are like following a
                                > > recipe set-in-stone
                                > > that disregards individual
                                > > or regional tastes and
                                > > disallows any additions
                                > > or omissions of other
                                > > ingredients, methods,
                                > > and/or spices.
                                > >
                                > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                > > change. He says they "rock
                                > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                > > that "it's all about fear."
                                > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                > > and "reinforce in each other
                                > > a group's opposition to
                                > > anything new." Strange
                                > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                > > subject to fear since he's
                                > > supposed to protect them!
                                > > This is how the KAL works.
                                > > Klemp is his agent.
                                > >
                                > > However, the real 'change'
                                > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                > > being bound to dogma.
                                > > HK side-steps delivering
                                > > on his promises of protection
                                > > and never has anything
                                > > profound to share. And,
                                > > where are those Higher
                                > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                > > yardsticks in measuring
                                > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                > > stingy and self-serving.
                                > >
                                > > Harold goes on to say that
                                > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                > > on the path to God instead
                                > > of being stepping stones."
                                > > Apparently, being creative
                                > > and spontaneous and
                                > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                > > permitted if it conflicts
                                > > with the LEM's outer,
                                > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                > >
                                > > The LEM states that, "We
                                > > are here to learn." However,
                                > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                > > from others since he never
                                > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                > > and doesn't partake in
                                > > two-way dialogues with
                                > > those under his authority.
                                > >
                                > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                > > and unloving as he continues
                                > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                > > believe that if they sit still
                                > > and breathe only enough to
                                > > sustain life that they may
                                > > well dodge the lightning
                                > > strikes of irksome change."
                                > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                > > that could have be averted
                                > > if they had gotten proper
                                > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                > > are meaningless... unless
                                > > you've given this Black
                                > > Magician power over you!
                                > >
                                > > But, it seems that HK
                                > > has something else stuck
                                > > in his craw. It seems to
                                > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                > > still and Contemplating
                                > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                > > life. But why shouldn't
                                > > they take it easy after
                                > > 40 years of doing PR
                                > > work for Eckankar!
                                > >
                                > > So, what does Klemp
                                > > the All compassionate,
                                > > loving, positive, and
                                > > empathetic icon of EK
                                > > conclude?
                                > >
                                > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                > > refuses to adhere to
                                > > the ECK Guidelines
                                > > needs to be addressed
                                > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                > > I wonder what that
                                > > really means? Well,
                                > > unless you're already
                                > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                > > next initiation good-bye
                                > > for like 10-20 years!
                                > >
                                > > Klemp continues to say,
                                > > "These are big stakes!
                                > > Continued refusal means
                                > > it's time for a replacement
                                > > to step in. A change is
                                > > due. Change. isn't it
                                > > funny how we have come
                                > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                > > really funny. Klemp
                                > > abuses the concept
                                > > of "change" and makes
                                > > it into a misnomer.
                                > >
                                > > What "changes" are there
                                > > in Eckankar? The same
                                > > old things are merely
                                > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                > > off and made to seem
                                > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                > > a game of pretend by
                                > > creating brightly colored
                                > > straws to grab at and
                                > > cling to when drowning.
                                > >
                                > > Too bad that EKists are
                                > > so deluded and needy
                                > > and aren't able to read
                                > > between the lines and
                                > > see the real truth behind
                                > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                              • Janice Pfeiffer
                                Thanks again Prometheus,   The very fact that this resa thought I was asking about my own initiations and he had to insist that he had said nothing about me
                                Message 15 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
                                  Thanks again Prometheus,
                                   
                                  The very fact that this resa thought I was asking about my own initiations and he had to insist that he had said nothing about me was proof that what I had been told,  was in fact true.  I didn't ask about my own and I said nothing about anything he might have said.  I was asking about how all initiations came about.  Yes, the initial info I got was the computer generated the list and  then the locals were questioned.
                                   
                                  For the longest time I did consider writing Minneapolis about my experiences.  The reason I finally decided against it was, I thought it would only help eckankar sharpen it's con game by telling them about it's weaknesses.  Why help people become better liars and cheaters? 
                                   
                                  It never occurred to me to try and take action about the resa screaming at me.  He was clearly out of control.  When I am dealing with a person whose behavior is so erratic, I just can't take their opinions seriously.  Besides, it was just more proof that the whole org ran like a circus filled with clowns and the bigger the nut job, the more likely they would advance.  I don't think klemp himself would give me a straight answer for what I ask and most likely if I got one at all, it wouldn't be an intelligent one.
                                   
                                  According to what you are saying even HI's didn't know the truth about initiations. I take it only those in some kind of local leadership roles were asked about individuals.
                                   
                                  After hearing what  you say, I feel very lucky that I found out as early as I did.  It must be a closely guarded secret.  Until now, I assumed that all HI's did know and I couldn't understand why the lies about it kept being perpetuated down. 
                                   
                                  You have given me just what I needed to know.  Most eckist remain in the dark no matter how long they are in.  Wow, that's a mind blower.  You have to admit, it is quite an ingenious con.  I do appreciate your frank answer. 
                                   
                                  As always, thanks for all you give.
                                   

                                  --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 8:14 AM

                                   
                                  Hello Janice,
                                  Most H.I.s have no idea
                                  how the EK Initiation
                                  process works. It's sad
                                  because there are some
                                  really nice and gentile
                                  chelas who have been
                                  passed over on the 5th.
                                  Some died as 4ths when
                                  they should have had
                                  some happiness, peace
                                  of mind, and contentment
                                  by receiving that 5th.
                                  I've know several eckists
                                  where this has happened.
                                  It was no big deal to give
                                  them their 5th initiation,
                                  but some RESAs are mean-
                                  spirited, lack empathy,
                                  and are petty. They've
                                  gotten caught up in HK's
                                  game. All Eckists should
                                  get the 5th after no more
                                  than 20 years, especially,
                                  when they participate
                                  and are kept current on
                                  their membership. However,
                                  that's not the way the
                                  power trip is played by
                                  some RESAs.

                                  I hate to admit this but
                                  I helped the RESA when
                                  asked about people. I
                                  was quizzed about those
                                  up for, usually, the 5th
                                  and 6th initiation. I was
                                  asked about what the EKist
                                  said, how they acted and
                                  conducted themselves
                                  and any unusual things
                                  that I noticed about
                                  their behavior or performance.
                                  And then I was asked for
                                  my opinion. Unfortunately
                                  my replies, I know, had
                                  some initiations delayed
                                  for these people and I
                                  regret that I got caught
                                  up in this petty mind game.
                                  Some of these people are
                                  still H.I.s and have no idea
                                  why they had to wait so
                                  long for their 5th or 6th.
                                  Many probably think that
                                  the Mahanta was testing
                                  them! LOL! On the other
                                  hand maybe some of them,
                                  by now, have been asked
                                  to evaluate people too.
                                  I wonder if they put two
                                  and two together and
                                  figured it out, unless,
                                  they were told why like
                                  I had been told.

                                  Why, though, should
                                  Klemp have a system
                                  for initiations that judges
                                  and punishes Eckists
                                  based upon our evaluations?
                                  Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                  of the Mahanta?

                                  Besides, a 5th is no big
                                  deal, and it's not like one
                                  becomes a cleric automatically
                                  with a 5th. Really, being
                                  an 5th is no more being
                                  an official representative
                                  of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                  Yes, most Eckists have
                                  no idea that a computer
                                  generated eligibility list
                                  is sent to the RESA by the
                                  ESC and that phone calls
                                  are made asking questions
                                  where subjective answers
                                  are given and that the RESA
                                  uses these to either approve
                                  and give a recommendation
                                  for initiation or doesn't.
                                  However, I will say that
                                  any "No" has to have an
                                  valid reason. The ESC
                                  usually follows the RESAs'
                                  recommendations.

                                  BTW- Janice, I think that
                                  your RESA approved of
                                  your initiation because
                                  he felt guilty for having
                                  yelled at you, plus, you
                                  could have reported him
                                  to the ESC. Maybe the
                                  initiation approval was
                                  meant to appease you?

                                  Prometheus


                                  Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                  Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person?

                                  That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless.

                                  In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                  I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all.

                                  The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his time and hung up.

                                  It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if that was part of it.

                                  When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It was enough.

                                  Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                  I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                  prometheus wrote:

                                  Hello Janice,
                                  Thanks for the interesting
                                  reply and the sharing of
                                  insights and experiences.
                                  I really really enjoyed it
                                  all.

                                  The reason why someone
                                  knew you received your
                                  pink slip is because the
                                  RESA gets an initiation
                                  eligibility list where he/
                                  she will mark yea/nay
                                  for an initiation. When
                                  the yea is checked the
                                  ESC (membership services)
                                  will more than likely issue
                                  the pink slip for the initiation.
                                  Or, the file has been red
                                  flagged for some reason.
                                  Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                  a temporary hold on higher
                                  initiations. Maybe it's due
                                  to pending requirements
                                  for training/retraining.
                                  The ESC will notify the
                                  RESA when the pink slip
                                  is sent.

                                  Most Eckists don't know
                                  how the initiation process
                                  works.

                                  The RESA has a membership
                                  list generated by the ESC
                                  for all those EKists in their
                                  region and it will show
                                  initiation level, one's status
                                  and date of membership
                                  among other info. If a
                                  new person sends in a
                                  membership form to the
                                  ESC from anywhere in
                                  the RESA's region the RESA
                                  will be notified of who
                                  they are and their mailing
                                  address.

                                  I was glad Ford Johnson
                                  wrote his book and that
                                  I was told about it by an
                                  Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                  The Irony is that he was
                                  doing Public Information
                                  and was quite the gossip.

                                  I always was the skeptic
                                  and had trouble with a lot
                                  of what I saw and experienced
                                  around H.I.s.

                                  When I was a lower initiate
                                  I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                  spiritual nor anywhere close
                                  to being enlightened. There
                                  were too many contradictions,
                                  restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                  Once you're an EK member
                                  the next step is to get you
                                  to become a volunteer on
                                  HK's sales team.

                                  I always wondered how
                                  was there an "inner" connection
                                  to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                  were still smoking and
                                  drinking alcohol, but
                                  getting promoted with
                                  more initiations? I knew
                                  of two 5ths who smoked
                                  and drank and got pink
                                  slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                  that Klemp knows nothing
                                  unless informed via phone
                                  or snailmail... email now!

                                  Yes, Janice, we were the
                                  ones awakened to the Truth
                                  while all of those "Higher"
                                  (pretend) Initiates are still
                                  sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                  become very skilled at
                                  regurgitating the PR and
                                  at facilitating and public
                                  speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                  no idea of what it's like
                                  to be Free thinkers and
                                  free of religion and of the
                                  EK Hierarchy. They think
                                  that their "spiritual experiences"
                                  are unique when these
                                  are common and similar
                                  experiences that all religious
                                  seekers have had... even
                                  Christians!

                                  Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                  in order to fill a void and
                                  to learn some important
                                  lessons about ourselves
                                  and about religion in general.

                                  IMO, Those who left
                                  Eckankar but still have
                                  a need for religion, haven't
                                  really learned that they
                                  will never find answers
                                  via a group consciousness
                                  or via a guru/master.
                                  True, it is nice to know
                                  people of like mind and
                                  to share things, but this
                                  can be a bad thing as well
                                  if we become too attached
                                  or lazy and want to play
                                  follow the leader again.

                                  It all comes down to one's
                                  private and personal experiences
                                  and inner revelations with
                                  oneSelf and with whatever
                                  catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                  Prometheus

                                  Janice wrote:
                                  I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                  Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                  I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                  Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                  How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                  That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                  The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                  Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                  I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                  I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                  I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                  Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                  Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                  Blessings to all of you.

                                  prometheus wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                  > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                  > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                  > and "explorer" positions at
                                  > the EK Centers would trip
                                  > over their egos and go on
                                  > power trips. Many seemed
                                  > cliquish and would huddle
                                  > together. Then, again, some
                                  > weren't all that friendly or
                                  > were very introverted and
                                  > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                  > including the clerics, to
                                  > greet and talk to all of the
                                  > new or seldom seen faces
                                  > that showed up. Many
                                  > only saw other Eckists at
                                  > the monthly EWS and this
                                  > was a time to catch up on
                                  > things. This is why I'd
                                  > suggest going to lunch
                                  > after the EWS and socializing.
                                  >
                                  > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                  > True? I think so!
                                  >
                                  > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                  > and requirements for Eckists
                                  > means that they must take
                                  > on extroverted roles in
                                  > order to become H.I.s.
                                  > Eckists must force themselves,
                                  > against their innate natures,
                                  > to become extroverted and
                                  > egocentric. These leadership
                                  > requirements create conflict,
                                  > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                  > Thus, this imbalance that
                                  > Klemp has created and
                                  > reenforces aids him in
                                  > the brainwashing of his
                                  > flock to have programmed
                                  > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                  > mystical experiences. But,
                                  > this has its toll and is why
                                  > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                  > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                  > and his anal control tactics.
                                  >
                                  > Sometimes, at special
                                  > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                  > and mini retreats the
                                  > long-time H.I.s, former
                                  > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                  > members would gather
                                  > around and gossip about
                                  > those absent or present.
                                  > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                  > gossip but rationalized
                                  > as more of an evaluative/
                                  > investigative discussion
                                  > for possible initiation
                                  > recommendation or for
                                  > a Satsang position appointment.
                                  > They wanted to know,
                                  > from sources who knew
                                  > them, if there were problems
                                  > with these EKists and, if
                                  > so, what the specific details
                                  > were. It was all ego driven
                                  > and subjective because we
                                  > were all volunteers and
                                  > had family and personal
                                  > lives too. But, it did weed
                                  > out those who weren't as
                                  > well indoctrinated....
                                  > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                  > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                  > much always a waste of
                                  > time so, in the long run,
                                  > enthusiasm was probably
                                  > more important than acting
                                  > the part. The Satsang positions
                                  > and duties kept people
                                  > busy, gave them a purpose
                                  > and made them feel good,
                                  > although, very stressed out.
                                  >
                                  > The Initiation game has made
                                  > Eckists struggle with denying
                                  > how much more they want of
                                  > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                  >
                                  > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                  > that an ESA told you that the
                                  > people at the EK Center were
                                  > crazy. That just isn't done
                                  > and is part of HK's agenda
                                  > of Silence and retraining.
                                  >
                                  > There's that old Buddha quote
                                  > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                  > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                  > and this is supposed to keep
                                  > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                  > sometimes get reported:
                                  > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                  > this I ask myself before I
                                  > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                  > following this criteria is very
                                  > subjective and could or would
                                  > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                  > conservations.
                                  >
                                  > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                  > may be "true" for you and
                                  > for most people but not
                                  > not for all people. And, is
                                  > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                  > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                  > this within earshot of people
                                  > who aren't feeling well or
                                  > who can't enjoy the day?
                                  > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                  > to keep the critics of his
                                  > policies and of his H.I.s
                                  > to a minimum.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                  > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                  > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                  > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                  > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                  > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                  > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                  > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                  > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                  > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                  >
                                  > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                  > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                  >
                                  > Good to be away from it.
                                  >
                                  > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                  > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                  > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                  > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                  > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                  > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                  > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                  > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                  > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                  > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                  > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                  > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                  > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                  > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                  > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                  > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                  > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                  > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                  > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                  > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                  > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                  > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                  > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                  > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                  > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                  > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                  > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                  > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                  >
                                  > Russ wrote:
                                  > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                  > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                  > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                  > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                  >
                                  > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                  > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                  > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                  > things.
                                  >
                                  > Russ
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                  > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                  > that Klemp has enough of
                                  > a problem that he used it
                                  > in the ASK The MASTER
                                  > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                  > And, it was the only question!
                                  > They had, supposedly, an
                                  > H.I. write-in and point out
                                  > the problem. No name given.
                                  >
                                  > I remember when I had
                                  > to deal with some older
                                  > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                  > coordinator and director
                                  > positions and it was
                                  > impossible to get this
                                  > one to follow the Guidelines
                                  > on EK Worship Services
                                  > (EWS). Many long-time
                                  > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                  > Guidelines and my
                                  > RESA turned a blind-
                                  > eye to it all. We had
                                  > so many former RESAs
                                  > in volunteer positions
                                  > that it was impossible
                                  > to get them on the
                                  > same page and to follow
                                  > procedures. I think
                                  > that some were just
                                  > burned out and tired
                                  > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                  > didn't want to leave.
                                  > Maybe they had too
                                  > many friendships to
                                  > lose. Plus, let's face
                                  > it. A lot of these people
                                  > are losers in the real
                                  > world but are big shots
                                  > in Eckankar. Those
                                  > Higher Initiations are
                                  > a big deal to the ego!
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                  > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                  > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                  > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                  > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                  > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                  >
                                  > Non ;)
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello All,
                                  > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                  > > Letter I've read that
                                  > > Klemp still needs to
                                  > > update his Guidelines
                                  > > for the H.I.s in the
                                  > > field and chastise
                                  > > those who are slow
                                  > > to get with the program.
                                  > >
                                  > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                  > > want the freedom
                                  > > of Soul to be more
                                  > > individualistic,
                                  > > spontaneous, and
                                  > > creative by thinking
                                  > > they (Soul) can operate
                                  > > outside-of-the-box,
                                  > > thus, being channels
                                  > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                  > > has previously stated
                                  > > that he's imperfect,
                                  > > but that's not the case
                                  > > with the ECK, correct?
                                  > >
                                  > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                  > > their current (Present)
                                  > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                  > > followed versus that
                                  > > of outer set-in-stone
                                  > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                  > > in the Past and approved
                                  > > by a committee of imperfect
                                  > > people on a plane ruled
                                  > > by the KAL?
                                  > >
                                  > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                  > > that freedom of expression
                                  > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                  > > version of ECKankar.
                                  > > It's a hierarchy where
                                  > > everything is spelled
                                  > > out and controlled
                                  > > by him and his secret
                                  > > RESA police, plus, all
                                  > > field work must be
                                  > > approved via the
                                  > > current Guidelines.
                                  > >
                                  > > Many inexperienced
                                  > > EKists like the idea of
                                  > > being told how to do
                                  > > this or that and what
                                  > > approved books to use
                                  > > and what to say and
                                  > > other details to make
                                  > > the promotion of
                                  > > Eckankar easier.
                                  > >
                                  > > But the real point the
                                  > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                  > > is to have EK PR more
                                  > > consistent and cookie
                                  > > cutter looking/sounding
                                  > > for the public.
                                  > >
                                  > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                  > > are like following a
                                  > > recipe set-in-stone
                                  > > that disregards individual
                                  > > or regional tastes and
                                  > > disallows any additions
                                  > > or omissions of other
                                  > > ingredients, methods,
                                  > > and/or spices.
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                  > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                  > > change. He says they "rock
                                  > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                  > > that "it's all about fear."
                                  > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                  > > and "reinforce in each other
                                  > > a group's opposition to
                                  > > anything new." Strange
                                  > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                  > > subject to fear since he's
                                  > > supposed to protect them!
                                  > > This is how the KAL works.
                                  > > Klemp is his agent.
                                  > >
                                  > > However, the real 'change'
                                  > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                  > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                  > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                  > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                  > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                  > > being bound to dogma.
                                  > > HK side-steps delivering
                                  > > on his promises of protection
                                  > > and never has anything
                                  > > profound to share. And,
                                  > > where are those Higher
                                  > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                  > > yardsticks in measuring
                                  > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                  > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                  > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                  > > stingy and self-serving.
                                  > >
                                  > > Harold goes on to say that
                                  > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                  > > on the path to God instead
                                  > > of being stepping stones."
                                  > > Apparently, being creative
                                  > > and spontaneous and
                                  > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                  > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                  > > permitted if it conflicts
                                  > > with the LEM's outer,
                                  > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                  > >
                                  > > The LEM states that, "We
                                  > > are here to learn." However,
                                  > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                  > > from others since he never
                                  > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                  > > and doesn't partake in
                                  > > two-way dialogues with
                                  > > those under his authority.
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                  > > and unloving as he continues
                                  > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                  > > believe that if they sit still
                                  > > and breathe only enough to
                                  > > sustain life that they may
                                  > > well dodge the lightning
                                  > > strikes of irksome change."
                                  > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                  > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                  > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                  > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                  > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                  > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                  > > that could have be averted
                                  > > if they had gotten proper
                                  > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                  > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                  > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                  > > are meaningless... unless
                                  > > you've given this Black
                                  > > Magician power over you!
                                  > >
                                  > > But, it seems that HK
                                  > > has something else stuck
                                  > > in his craw. It seems to
                                  > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                  > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                  > > still and Contemplating
                                  > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                  > > life. But why shouldn't
                                  > > they take it easy after
                                  > > 40 years of doing PR
                                  > > work for Eckankar!
                                  > >
                                  > > So, what does Klemp
                                  > > the All compassionate,
                                  > > loving, positive, and
                                  > > empathetic icon of EK
                                  > > conclude?
                                  > >
                                  > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                  > > refuses to adhere to
                                  > > the ECK Guidelines
                                  > > needs to be addressed
                                  > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                  > > I wonder what that
                                  > > really means? Well,
                                  > > unless you're already
                                  > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                  > > next initiation good-bye
                                  > > for like 10-20 years!
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp continues to say,
                                  > > "These are big stakes!
                                  > > Continued refusal means
                                  > > it's time for a replacement
                                  > > to step in. A change is
                                  > > due. Change. isn't it
                                  > > funny how we have come
                                  > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                  > > really funny. Klemp
                                  > > abuses the concept
                                  > > of "change" and makes
                                  > > it into a misnomer.
                                  > >
                                  > > What "changes" are there
                                  > > in Eckankar? The same
                                  > > old things are merely
                                  > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                  > > off and made to seem
                                  > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                  > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                  > > a game of pretend by
                                  > > creating brightly colored
                                  > > straws to grab at and
                                  > > cling to when drowning.
                                  > >
                                  > > Too bad that EKists are
                                  > > so deluded and needy
                                  > > and aren't able to read
                                  > > between the lines and
                                  > > see the real truth behind
                                  > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus

                                • Russ Rodnick
                                  Janice, I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member.  I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
                                    Janice,

                                    I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member. 

                                    I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'. 

                                    That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                                    On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                                    I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know. 

                                    Later,
                                    Russ


                                    From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:37 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                                     
                                    Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                                     
                                    Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                                     
                                    That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                                     
                                    In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                                     
                                     I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                                     
                                    The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                                     
                                    It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                                     
                                    When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                                     
                                    Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                                     
                                    I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                                    --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                                     
                                    Hello Janice,
                                    Thanks for the interesting
                                    reply and the sharing of
                                    insights and experiences.
                                    I really really enjoyed it
                                    all.

                                    The reason why someone
                                    knew you received your
                                    pink slip is because the
                                    RESA gets an initiation
                                    eligibility list where he/
                                    she will mark yea/nay
                                    for an initiation. When
                                    the yea is checked the
                                    ESC (membership services)
                                    will more than likely issue
                                    the pink slip for the initiation.
                                    Or, the file has been red
                                    flagged for some reason.
                                    Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                    a temporary hold on higher
                                    initiations. Maybe it's due
                                    to pending requirements
                                    for training/retraining.
                                    The ESC will notify the
                                    RESA when the pink slip
                                    is sent.

                                    Most Eckists don't know
                                    how the initiation process
                                    works.

                                    The RESA has a membership
                                    list generated by the ESC
                                    for all those EKists in their
                                    region and it will show
                                    initiation level, one's status
                                    and date of membership
                                    among other info. If a
                                    new person sends in a
                                    membership form to the
                                    ESC from anywhere in
                                    the RESA's region the RESA
                                    will be notified of who
                                    they are and their mailing
                                    address.

                                    I was glad Ford Johnson
                                    wrote his book and that
                                    I was told about it by an
                                    Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                    The Irony is that he was
                                    doing Public Information
                                    and was quite the gossip.

                                    I always was the skeptic
                                    and had trouble with a lot
                                    of what I saw and experienced
                                    around H.I.s.

                                    When I was a lower initiate
                                    I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                    spiritual nor anywhere close
                                    to being enlightened. There
                                    were too many contradictions,
                                    restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                    Once you're an EK member
                                    the next step is to get you
                                    to become a volunteer on
                                    HK's sales team.

                                    I always wondered how
                                    was there an "inner" connection
                                    to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                    were still smoking and
                                    drinking alcohol, but
                                    getting promoted with
                                    more initiations? I knew
                                    of two 5ths who smoked
                                    and drank and got pink
                                    slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                    that Klemp knows nothing
                                    unless informed via phone
                                    or snailmail... email now!

                                    Yes, Janice, we were the
                                    ones awakened to the Truth
                                    while all of those "Higher"
                                    (pretend) Initiates are still
                                    sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                    become very skilled at
                                    regurgitating the PR and
                                    at facilitating and public
                                    speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                    no idea of what it's like
                                    to be Free thinkers and
                                    free of religion and of the
                                    EK Hierarchy. They think
                                    that their "spiritual experiences"
                                    are unique when these
                                    are common and similar
                                    experiences that all religious
                                    seekers have had... even
                                    Christians!

                                    Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                    in order to fill a void and
                                    to learn some important
                                    lessons about ourselves
                                    and about religion in general.

                                    IMO, Those who left
                                    Eckankar but still have
                                    a need for religion, haven't
                                    really learned that they
                                    will never find answers
                                    via a group consciousness
                                    or via a guru/master.
                                    True, it is nice to know
                                    people of like mind and
                                    to share things, but this
                                    can be a bad thing as well
                                    if we become too attached
                                    or lazy and want to play
                                    follow the leader again.

                                    It all comes down to one's
                                    private and personal experiences
                                    and inner revelations with
                                    oneSelf and with whatever
                                    catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                    Prometheus

                                    Janice wrote:
                                    I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                    Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                    I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                    Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                    How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                    That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                    The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                    Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                    I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                    I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                    I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                    Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                    Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                    Blessings to all of you.


                                    prometheus wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                    > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                    > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                    > and "explorer" positions at
                                    > the EK Centers would trip
                                    > over their egos and go on
                                    > power trips. Many seemed
                                    > cliquish and would huddle
                                    > together. Then, again, some
                                    > weren't all that friendly or
                                    > were very introverted and
                                    > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                    > including the clerics, to
                                    > greet and talk to all of the
                                    > new or seldom seen faces
                                    > that showed up. Many
                                    > only saw other Eckists at
                                    > the monthly EWS and this
                                    > was a time to catch up on
                                    > things. This is why I'd
                                    > suggest going to lunch
                                    > after the EWS and socializing.
                                    >
                                    > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                    > True? I think so!
                                    >
                                    > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                    > and requirements for Eckists
                                    > means that they must take
                                    > on extroverted roles in
                                    > order to become H.I.s.
                                    > Eckists must force themselves,
                                    > against their innate natures,
                                    > to become extroverted and
                                    > egocentric. These leadership
                                    > requirements create conflict,
                                    > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                    > Thus, this imbalance that
                                    > Klemp has created and
                                    > reenforces aids him in
                                    > the brainwashing of his
                                    > flock to have programmed
                                    > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                    > mystical experiences. But,
                                    > this has its toll and is why
                                    > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                    > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                    > and his anal control tactics.
                                    >
                                    > Sometimes, at special
                                    > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                    > and mini retreats the
                                    > long-time H.I.s, former
                                    > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                    > members would gather
                                    > around and gossip about
                                    > those absent or present.
                                    > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                    > gossip but rationalized
                                    > as more of an evaluative/
                                    > investigative discussion
                                    > for possible initiation
                                    > recommendation or for
                                    > a Satsang position appointment.
                                    > They wanted to know,
                                    > from sources who knew
                                    > them, if there were problems
                                    > with these EKists and, if
                                    > so, what the specific details
                                    > were. It was all ego driven
                                    > and subjective because we
                                    > were all volunteers and
                                    > had family and personal
                                    > lives too. But, it did weed
                                    > out those who weren't as
                                    > well indoctrinated....
                                    > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                    > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                    > much always a waste of
                                    > time so, in the long run,
                                    > enthusiasm was probably
                                    > more important than acting
                                    > the part. The Satsang positions
                                    > and duties kept people
                                    > busy, gave them a purpose
                                    > and made them feel good,
                                    > although, very stressed out.
                                    >
                                    > The Initiation game has made
                                    > Eckists struggle with denying
                                    > how much more they want of
                                    > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                    >
                                    > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                    > that an ESA told you that the
                                    > people at the EK Center were
                                    > crazy. That just isn't done
                                    > and is part of HK's agenda
                                    > of Silence and retraining.
                                    >
                                    > There's that old Buddha quote
                                    > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                    > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                    > and this is supposed to keep
                                    > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                    > sometimes get reported:
                                    > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                    > this I ask myself before I
                                    > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                    > following this criteria is very
                                    > subjective and could or would
                                    > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                    > conservations.
                                    >
                                    > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                    > may be "true" for you and
                                    > for most people but not
                                    > not for all people. And, is
                                    > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                    > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                    > this within earshot of people
                                    > who aren't feeling well or
                                    > who can't enjoy the day?
                                    > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                    > to keep the critics of his
                                    > policies and of his H.I.s
                                    > to a minimum.
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                    > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                    > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                    > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                    > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                    > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                    > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                    > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                    > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                    > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                    >
                                    > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                    > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                    >
                                    > Good to be away from it.
                                    >
                                    > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                    > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                    > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                    > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                    > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                    > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                    > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                    > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                    > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                    > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                    > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                    > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                    > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                    > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                    > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                    > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                    > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                    > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                    > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                    > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                    > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                    > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                    > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                    > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                    > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                    > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                    > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                    > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                    >
                                    > Russ wrote:
                                    > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                    > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                    > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                    > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                    >
                                    > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                    > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                    > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                    > things.
                                    >
                                    > Russ
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > prometheus wrote:
                                    > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                    > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                    > that Klemp has enough of
                                    > a problem that he used it
                                    > in the ASK The MASTER
                                    > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                    > And, it was the only question!
                                    > They had, supposedly, an
                                    > H.I. write-in and point out
                                    > the problem. No name given.
                                    >
                                    > I remember when I had
                                    > to deal with some older
                                    > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                    > coordinator and director
                                    > positions and it was
                                    > impossible to get this
                                    > one to follow the Guidelines
                                    > on EK Worship Services
                                    > (EWS). Many long-time
                                    > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                    > Guidelines and my
                                    > RESA turned a blind-
                                    > eye to it all. We had
                                    > so many former RESAs
                                    > in volunteer positions
                                    > that it was impossible
                                    > to get them on the
                                    > same page and to follow
                                    > procedures. I think
                                    > that some were just
                                    > burned out and tired
                                    > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                    > didn't want to leave.
                                    > Maybe they had too
                                    > many friendships to
                                    > lose. Plus, let's face
                                    > it. A lot of these people
                                    > are losers in the real
                                    > world but are big shots
                                    > in Eckankar. Those
                                    > Higher Initiations are
                                    > a big deal to the ego!
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                    > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                    > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                    > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                    > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                    > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                    >
                                    > Non ;)
                                    >
                                    > prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello All,
                                    > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                    > > Letter I've read that
                                    > > Klemp still needs to
                                    > > update his Guidelines
                                    > > for the H.I.s in the
                                    > > field and chastise
                                    > > those who are slow
                                    > > to get with the program.
                                    > >
                                    > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                    > > want the freedom
                                    > > of Soul to be more
                                    > > individualistic,
                                    > > spontaneous, and
                                    > > creative by thinking
                                    > > they (Soul) can operate
                                    > > outside-of-the-box,
                                    > > thus, being channels
                                    > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                    > > has previously stated
                                    > > that he's imperfect,
                                    > > but that's not the case
                                    > > with the ECK, correct?
                                    > >
                                    > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                    > > their current (Present)
                                    > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                    > > followed versus that
                                    > > of outer set-in-stone
                                    > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                    > > in the Past and approved
                                    > > by a committee of imperfect
                                    > > people on a plane ruled
                                    > > by the KAL?
                                    > >
                                    > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                    > > that freedom of expression
                                    > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                    > > version of ECKankar.
                                    > > It's a hierarchy where
                                    > > everything is spelled
                                    > > out and controlled
                                    > > by him and his secret
                                    > > RESA police, plus, all
                                    > > field work must be
                                    > > approved via the
                                    > > current Guidelines.
                                    > >
                                    > > Many inexperienced
                                    > > EKists like the idea of
                                    > > being told how to do
                                    > > this or that and what
                                    > > approved books to use
                                    > > and what to say and
                                    > > other details to make
                                    > > the promotion of
                                    > > Eckankar easier.
                                    > >
                                    > > But the real point the
                                    > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                    > > is to have EK PR more
                                    > > consistent and cookie
                                    > > cutter looking/sounding
                                    > > for the public.
                                    > >
                                    > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                    > > are like following a
                                    > > recipe set-in-stone
                                    > > that disregards individual
                                    > > or regional tastes and
                                    > > disallows any additions
                                    > > or omissions of other
                                    > > ingredients, methods,
                                    > > and/or spices.
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                    > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                    > > change. He says they "rock
                                    > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                    > > that "it's all about fear."
                                    > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                    > > and "reinforce in each other
                                    > > a group's opposition to
                                    > > anything new." Strange
                                    > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                    > > subject to fear since he's
                                    > > supposed to protect them!
                                    > > This is how the KAL works.
                                    > > Klemp is his agent.
                                    > >
                                    > > However, the real 'change'
                                    > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                    > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                    > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                    > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                    > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                    > > being bound to dogma.
                                    > > HK side-steps delivering
                                    > > on his promises of protection
                                    > > and never has anything
                                    > > profound to share. And,
                                    > > where are those Higher
                                    > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                    > > yardsticks in measuring
                                    > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                    > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                    > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                    > > stingy and self-serving.
                                    > >
                                    > > Harold goes on to say that
                                    > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                    > > on the path to God instead
                                    > > of being stepping stones."
                                    > > Apparently, being creative
                                    > > and spontaneous and
                                    > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                    > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                    > > permitted if it conflicts
                                    > > with the LEM's outer,
                                    > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                    > >
                                    > > The LEM states that, "We
                                    > > are here to learn." However,
                                    > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                    > > from others since he never
                                    > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                    > > and doesn't partake in
                                    > > two-way dialogues with
                                    > > those under his authority.
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                    > > and unloving as he continues
                                    > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                    > > believe that if they sit still
                                    > > and breathe only enough to
                                    > > sustain life that they may
                                    > > well dodge the lightning
                                    > > strikes of irksome change."
                                    > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                    > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                    > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                    > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                    > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                    > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                    > > that could have be averted
                                    > > if they had gotten proper
                                    > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                    > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                    > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                    > > are meaningless... unless
                                    > > you've given this Black
                                    > > Magician power over you!
                                    > >
                                    > > But, it seems that HK
                                    > > has something else stuck
                                    > > in his craw. It seems to
                                    > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                    > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                    > > still and Contemplating
                                    > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                    > > life. But why shouldn't
                                    > > they take it easy after
                                    > > 40 years of doing PR
                                    > > work for Eckankar!
                                    > >
                                    > > So, what does Klemp
                                    > > the All compassionate,
                                    > > loving, positive, and
                                    > > empathetic icon of EK
                                    > > conclude?
                                    > >
                                    > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                    > > refuses to adhere to
                                    > > the ECK Guidelines
                                    > > needs to be addressed
                                    > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                    > > I wonder what that
                                    > > really means? Well,
                                    > > unless you're already
                                    > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                    > > next initiation good-bye
                                    > > for like 10-20 years!
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp continues to say,
                                    > > "These are big stakes!
                                    > > Continued refusal means
                                    > > it's time for a replacement
                                    > > to step in. A change is
                                    > > due. Change. isn't it
                                    > > funny how we have come
                                    > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                    > > really funny. Klemp
                                    > > abuses the concept
                                    > > of "change" and makes
                                    > > it into a misnomer.
                                    > >
                                    > > What "changes" are there
                                    > > in Eckankar? The same
                                    > > old things are merely
                                    > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                    > > off and made to seem
                                    > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                    > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                    > > a game of pretend by
                                    > > creating brightly colored
                                    > > straws to grab at and
                                    > > cling to when drowning.
                                    > >
                                    > > Too bad that EKists are
                                    > > so deluded and needy
                                    > > and aren't able to read
                                    > > between the lines and
                                    > > see the real truth behind
                                    > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus
                                    >



                                  • prometheus_973
                                    Hello Russ, Janice, and All, The initiation eligibility list is generated on eckists after they have completed so many years and/or requirements as members in
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
                                      Hello Russ, Janice, and All,
                                      The initiation eligibility list
                                      is generated on eckists
                                      after they have completed
                                      so many years and/or
                                      requirements as members
                                      in good standing. Delays
                                      in payment of membership
                                      fees (i.e. breaks) or rest
                                      periods will affect people's
                                      names from appearing
                                      on the eligibility list.

                                      Sometimes Eckists can call
                                      Membership Services with
                                      concern that they've been
                                      passed over. If, in fact, they've
                                      waited longer than normal
                                      and there are No red flags
                                      in their file sometimes the
                                      ESC will generate a pink
                                      slip without RESA input.
                                      Plus, it always helps to
                                      know people in high places.
                                      I suggested doing this to
                                      a 4th who had been waiting
                                      longer than normal and
                                      within a month or so she
                                      got her pink slip. Funny!
                                      BTW- I swore her to secrecy
                                      and Not to mention my name!

                                      Many H.I.s don't know about
                                      how the EK Initiation system
                                      really works because it's very
                                      secretive. If anyone shared this
                                      info they would be banned from
                                      holding any Satsang positions,
                                      receiving any more initiations,
                                      and have their file at the ESC
                                      red flagged. [Klemp generally
                                      states that those EKists divulging
                                      secrets will have their spiritual
                                      growth halted, but doesn't say
                                      how it's done].

                                      In any case, I've known people
                                      who suspected their files were
                                      red flagged and was told that
                                      when calling into the ESC to
                                      renew their membership that
                                      when their data came up that
                                      there was a long pause and
                                      the tone of voice of the staffer
                                      changed.

                                      Eckists should know that they
                                      are under scrutiny at all times
                                      and certain innocent comments
                                      or behaviour will stand out to
                                      those judging and looking to
                                      find fault. The devil is in the
                                      details. For Eckists to know
                                      and follow the current Guidelines,
                                      the Four Zoas, to volunteer
                                      and always sound like an EK
                                      Brochure is still not enough.
                                      They need to make friendships
                                      with the H.I.s in their region,
                                      with their RESA, and with those
                                      at the ESC via seminars. One
                                      has to psyche themselves
                                      into seeing all of the flawed,
                                      ego driven, power hungry
                                      H.I.s as their friend whether
                                      it's true or not. And, you still
                                      have to watch what you say.

                                      An example of watching what
                                      you say is to never bring up
                                      Darwin's name. You don't know
                                      whether or not someone within
                                      earshot is going to tell the RESA
                                      about this. There are RESA spys
                                      and members of the RESA's
                                      secret police everywhere.
                                      They might be in "official" roles
                                      but they are used in the same
                                      way. And, don't be talking about
                                      and promoting Metaphysics,
                                      psyche readings, etc. around
                                      Eckists or selling some product,
                                      especially, at the EK Center!
                                      This will get one's next initiation
                                      delayed as well.

                                      As I stated before, those
                                      EKists involved with charting
                                      their ancestry are taking
                                      a chance on being passed
                                      over too. Eckists believe in
                                      reincarnation and Soul, thus,
                                      tracing ancestry and getting
                                      caught up with one's "heritage"
                                      is seen as a moot point, a
                                      distraction, and not being
                                      well grounded in the ECK
                                      teachings. It's seen as a
                                      detriment and will prevent
                                      one from "advancing" to that
                                      next coveted EK initiation.

                                      The initiation game, whether
                                      Eckists want to admit to it
                                      or not, is the most powerful
                                      driving force within Eckankar.

                                      Prometheus

                                      Russ wrote:
                                      Janice,

                                      I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member.

                                      I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'.

                                      That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                                      On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                                      I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know.

                                      Later,
                                      Russ




                                      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Thanks again Prometheus,
                                       
                                      > The very fact that this resa thought I was asking about my own initiations and he had to insist that he had said nothing about me was proof that what I had been told,  was in fact true.  I didn't ask about my own and I said nothing about anything he might have said.  I was asking about how all initiations came about.  Yes, the initial info I got was the computer generated the list and  then the locals were questioned.
                                      >  
                                      > For the longest time I did consider writing Minneapolis about my experiences.  The reason I finally decided against it was, I thought it would only help eckankar sharpen it's con game by telling them about it's weaknesses.  Why help people become better liars and cheaters?
                                      >  
                                      > It never occurred to me to try and take action about the resa screaming at me.  He was clearly out of control.  When I am dealing with a person whose behavior is so erratic, I just can't take their opinions seriously.  Besides, it was just more proof that the whole org ran like a circus filled with clowns and the bigger the nut job, the more likely they would advance.  I don't think klemp himself would give me a straight answer for what I ask and most likely if I got one at all, it wouldn't be an intelligent one.
                                      >  
                                      > According to what you are saying even HI's didn't know the truth about initiations. I take it only those in some kind of local leadership roles were asked about individuals.
                                      >  
                                      > After hearing what  you say, I feel very lucky that I found out as early as I did.  It must be a closely guarded secret. Until now, I assumed that all HI's did know and I couldn't understand why the lies about it kept being perpetuated down. 
                                      >  
                                      > You have given me just what I needed to know.  Most eckist remain in the dark no matter how long they are in.  Wow, that's a mind blower.  You have to admit, it is quite an ingenious con.  I do appreciate your frank answer. 
                                      >  
                                      > As always, thanks for all you give.
                                      >  

                                      prometheus wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello Janice,
                                      > Most H.I.s have no idea
                                      > how the EK Initiation
                                      > process works. It's sad
                                      > because there are some
                                      > really nice and gentile
                                      > chelas who have been
                                      > passed over on the 5th.
                                      > Some died as 4ths when
                                      > they should have had
                                      > some happiness, peace
                                      > of mind, and contentment
                                      > by receiving that 5th.
                                      > I've know several eckists
                                      > where this has happened.
                                      > It was no big deal to give
                                      > them their 5th initiation,
                                      > but some RESAs are mean-
                                      > spirited, lack empathy,
                                      > and are petty. They've
                                      > gotten caught up in HK's
                                      > game. All Eckists should
                                      > get the 5th after no more
                                      > than 20 years, especially,
                                      > when they participate
                                      > and are kept current on
                                      > their membership. However,
                                      > that's not the way the
                                      > power trip is played by
                                      > some RESAs.
                                      >
                                      > I hate to admit this but
                                      > I helped the RESA when
                                      > asked about people. I
                                      > was quizzed about those
                                      > up for, usually, the 5th
                                      > and 6th initiation. I was
                                      > asked about what the EKist
                                      > said, how they acted and
                                      > conducted themselves
                                      > and any unusual things
                                      > that I noticed about
                                      > their behavior or performance.
                                      > And then I was asked for
                                      > my opinion. Unfortunately
                                      > my replies, I know, had
                                      > some initiations delayed
                                      > for these people and I
                                      > regret that I got caught
                                      > up in this petty mind game.
                                      > Some of these people are
                                      > still H.I.s and have no idea
                                      > why they had to wait so
                                      > long for their 5th or 6th.
                                      > Many probably think that
                                      > the Mahanta was testing
                                      > them! LOL! On the other
                                      > hand maybe some of them,
                                      > by now, have been asked
                                      > to evaluate people too.
                                      > I wonder if they put two
                                      > and two together and
                                      > figured it out, unless,
                                      > they were told why like
                                      > I had been told.
                                      >
                                      > Why, though, should
                                      > Klemp have a system
                                      > for initiations that judges
                                      > and punishes Eckists
                                      > based upon our evaluations?
                                      > Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                      > of the Mahanta?
                                      >
                                      > Besides, a 5th is no big
                                      > deal, and it's not like one
                                      > becomes a cleric automatically
                                      > with a 5th. Really, being
                                      > an 5th is no more being
                                      > an official representative
                                      > of Eckankar than is a 4th.
                                      >
                                      > Yes, most Eckists have
                                      > no idea that a computer
                                      > generated eligibility list
                                      > is sent to the RESA by the
                                      > ESC and that phone calls
                                      > are made asking questions
                                      > where subjective answers
                                      > are given and that the RESA
                                      > uses these to either approve
                                      > and give a recommendation
                                      > for initiation or doesn't.
                                      > However, I will say that
                                      > any "No" has to have an
                                      > valid reason. The ESC
                                      > usually follows the RESAs'
                                      > recommendations.
                                      >
                                      > BTW- Janice, I think that
                                      > your RESA approved of
                                      > your initiation because
                                      > he felt guilty for having
                                      > yelled at you, plus, you
                                      > could have reported him
                                      > to the ESC. Maybe the
                                      > initiation approval was
                                      > meant to appease you?
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                      > Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.
                                      >
                                      > Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person?
                                      >
                                      > That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless.
                                      >
                                      > In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?
                                      >
                                      > I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all.
                                      >
                                      > The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his time and hung up.
                                      >
                                      > It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if that was part of it.
                                      >
                                      > When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It was enough.
                                      >
                                      > Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.
                                      >
                                      > I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.
                                      >
                                      > prometheus wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello Janice,
                                      > Thanks for the interesting
                                      > reply and the sharing of
                                      > insights and experiences.
                                      > I really really enjoyed it
                                      > all.
                                      >
                                      > The reason why someone
                                      > knew you received your
                                      > pink slip is because the
                                      > RESA gets an initiation
                                      > eligibility list where he/
                                      > she will mark yea/nay
                                      > for an initiation. When
                                      > the yea is checked the
                                      > ESC (membership services)
                                      > will more than likely issue
                                      > the pink slip for the initiation.
                                      > Or, the file has been red
                                      > flagged for some reason.
                                      > Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                      > a temporary hold on higher
                                      > initiations. Maybe it's due
                                      > to pending requirements
                                      > for training/retraining.
                                      > The ESC will notify the
                                      > RESA when the pink slip
                                      > is sent.
                                      >
                                      > Most Eckists don't know
                                      > how the initiation process
                                      > works.
                                      >
                                      > The RESA has a membership
                                      > list generated by the ESC
                                      > for all those EKists in their
                                      > region and it will show
                                      > initiation level, one's status
                                      > and date of membership
                                      > among other info. If a
                                      > new person sends in a
                                      > membership form to the
                                      > ESC from anywhere in
                                      > the RESA's region the RESA
                                      > will be notified of who
                                      > they are and their mailing
                                      > address.
                                      >
                                      > I was glad Ford Johnson
                                      > wrote his book and that
                                      > I was told about it by an
                                      > Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                      > The Irony is that he was
                                      > doing Public Information
                                      > and was quite the gossip.
                                      >
                                      > I always was the skeptic
                                      > and had trouble with a lot
                                      > of what I saw and experienced
                                      > around H.I.s.
                                      >
                                      > When I was a lower initiate
                                      > I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                      > spiritual nor anywhere close
                                      > to being enlightened. There
                                      > were too many contradictions,
                                      > restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                      > Once you're an EK member
                                      > the next step is to get you
                                      > to become a volunteer on
                                      > HK's sales team.
                                      >
                                      > I always wondered how
                                      > was there an "inner" connection
                                      > to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                      > were still smoking and
                                      > drinking alcohol, but
                                      > getting promoted with
                                      > more initiations? I knew
                                      > of two 5ths who smoked
                                      > and drank and got pink
                                      > slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                      > that Klemp knows nothing
                                      > unless informed via phone
                                      > or snailmail... email now!
                                      >
                                      > Yes, Janice, we were the
                                      > ones awakened to the Truth
                                      > while all of those "Higher"
                                      > (pretend) Initiates are still
                                      > sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                      > become very skilled at
                                      > regurgitating the PR and
                                      > at facilitating and public
                                      > speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                      > no idea of what it's like
                                      > to be Free thinkers and
                                      > free of religion and of the
                                      > EK Hierarchy. They think
                                      > that their "spiritual experiences"
                                      > are unique when these
                                      > are common and similar
                                      > experiences that all religious
                                      > seekers have had... even
                                      > Christians!
                                      >
                                      > Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                      > in order to fill a void and
                                      > to learn some important
                                      > lessons about ourselves
                                      > and about religion in general.
                                      >
                                      > IMO, Those who left
                                      > Eckankar but still have
                                      > a need for religion, haven't
                                      > really learned that they
                                      > will never find answers
                                      > via a group consciousness
                                      > or via a guru/master.
                                      > True, it is nice to know
                                      > people of like mind and
                                      > to share things, but this
                                      > can be a bad thing as well
                                      > if we become too attached
                                      > or lazy and want to play
                                      > follow the leader again.
                                      >
                                      > It all comes down to one's
                                      > private and personal experiences
                                      > and inner revelations with
                                      > oneSelf and with whatever
                                      > catalyst of "divine" creation.
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      > Janice wrote:
                                      > I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.
                                      >
                                      > Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.
                                      >
                                      > I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.
                                      >
                                      > Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.
                                      >
                                      > How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.
                                      >
                                      > That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.
                                      >
                                      > The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.
                                      >
                                      > Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.
                                      >
                                      > I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.
                                      >
                                      > I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.
                                      >
                                      > I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.
                                      >
                                      > Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.
                                      >
                                      > Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.
                                      >
                                      > Blessings to all of you.
                                      >
                                      > prometheus wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                      > > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                      > > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                      > > and "explorer" positions at
                                      > > the EK Centers would trip
                                      > > over their egos and go on
                                      > > power trips. Many seemed
                                      > > cliquish and would huddle
                                      > > together. Then, again, some
                                      > > weren't all that friendly or
                                      > > were very introverted and
                                      > > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                      > > including the clerics, to
                                      > > greet and talk to all of the
                                      > > new or seldom seen faces
                                      > > that showed up. Many
                                      > > only saw other Eckists at
                                      > > the monthly EWS and this
                                      > > was a time to catch up on
                                      > > things. This is why I'd
                                      > > suggest going to lunch
                                      > > after the EWS and socializing.
                                      > >
                                      > > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                      > > True? I think so!
                                      > >
                                      > > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                      > > and requirements for Eckists
                                      > > means that they must take
                                      > > on extroverted roles in
                                      > > order to become H.I.s.
                                      > > Eckists must force themselves,
                                      > > against their innate natures,
                                      > > to become extroverted and
                                      > > egocentric. These leadership
                                      > > requirements create conflict,
                                      > > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                      > > Thus, this imbalance that
                                      > > Klemp has created and
                                      > > reenforces aids him in
                                      > > the brainwashing of his
                                      > > flock to have programmed
                                      > > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                      > > mystical experiences. But,
                                      > > this has its toll and is why
                                      > > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                      > > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                      > > and his anal control tactics.
                                      > >
                                      > > Sometimes, at special
                                      > > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                      > > and mini retreats the
                                      > > long-time H.I.s, former
                                      > > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                      > > members would gather
                                      > > around and gossip about
                                      > > those absent or present.
                                      > > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                      > > gossip but rationalized
                                      > > as more of an evaluative/
                                      > > investigative discussion
                                      > > for possible initiation
                                      > > recommendation or for
                                      > > a Satsang position appointment.
                                      > > They wanted to know,
                                      > > from sources who knew
                                      > > them, if there were problems
                                      > > with these EKists and, if
                                      > > so, what the specific details
                                      > > were. It was all ego driven
                                      > > and subjective because we
                                      > > were all volunteers and
                                      > > had family and personal
                                      > > lives too. But, it did weed
                                      > > out those who weren't as
                                      > > well indoctrinated....
                                      > > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                      > > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                      > > much always a waste of
                                      > > time so, in the long run,
                                      > > enthusiasm was probably
                                      > > more important than acting
                                      > > the part. The Satsang positions
                                      > > and duties kept people
                                      > > busy, gave them a purpose
                                      > > and made them feel good,
                                      > > although, very stressed out.
                                      > >
                                      > > The Initiation game has made
                                      > > Eckists struggle with denying
                                      > > how much more they want of
                                      > > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                      > >
                                      > > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                      > > that an ESA told you that the
                                      > > people at the EK Center were
                                      > > crazy. That just isn't done
                                      > > and is part of HK's agenda
                                      > > of Silence and retraining.
                                      > >
                                      > > There's that old Buddha quote
                                      > > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                      > > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                      > > and this is supposed to keep
                                      > > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                      > > sometimes get reported:
                                      > > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                      > > this I ask myself before I
                                      > > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                      > > following this criteria is very
                                      > > subjective and could or would
                                      > > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                      > > conservations.
                                      > >
                                      > > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                      > > may be "true" for you and
                                      > > for most people but not
                                      > > not for all people. And, is
                                      > > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                      > > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                      > > this within earshot of people
                                      > > who aren't feeling well or
                                      > > who can't enjoy the day?
                                      > > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                      > > to keep the critics of his
                                      > > policies and of his H.I.s
                                      > > to a minimum.
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                      > > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                      > > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                      > > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                      > > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                      > > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                      > > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                      > > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                      > > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                      > > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                      > >
                                      > > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                      > > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                      > >
                                      > > Good to be away from it.
                                      > >
                                      > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                      > > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                      > > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                      > > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                      > > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                      > > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                      > > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                      > > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                      > > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                      > > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                      > > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                      > > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                      > > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                      > > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                      > > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                      > > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                      > > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                      > > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                      > > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                      > > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                      > > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                      > > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                      > > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                      > > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                      > > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                      > > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                      > > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                      > > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                      > >
                                      > > Russ wrote:
                                      > > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                      > > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                      > > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                      > > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                      > >
                                      > > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                      > > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                      > > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                      > > things.
                                      > >
                                      > > Russ
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > prometheus wrote:
                                      > > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                      > > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                      > > that Klemp has enough of
                                      > > a problem that he used it
                                      > > in the ASK The MASTER
                                      > > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                      > > And, it was the only question!
                                      > > They had, supposedly, an
                                      > > H.I. write-in and point out
                                      > > the problem. No name given.
                                      > >
                                      > > I remember when I had
                                      > > to deal with some older
                                      > > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                      > > coordinator and director
                                      > > positions and it was
                                      > > impossible to get this
                                      > > one to follow the Guidelines
                                      > > on EK Worship Services
                                      > > (EWS). Many long-time
                                      > > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                      > > Guidelines and my
                                      > > RESA turned a blind-
                                      > > eye to it all. We had
                                      > > so many former RESAs
                                      > > in volunteer positions
                                      > > that it was impossible
                                      > > to get them on the
                                      > > same page and to follow
                                      > > procedures. I think
                                      > > that some were just
                                      > > burned out and tired
                                      > > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                      > > didn't want to leave.
                                      > > Maybe they had too
                                      > > many friendships to
                                      > > lose. Plus, let's face
                                      > > it. A lot of these people
                                      > > are losers in the real
                                      > > world but are big shots
                                      > > in Eckankar. Those
                                      > > Higher Initiations are
                                      > > a big deal to the ego!
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                      > > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                      > > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                      > > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                      > > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                      > > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                      > >
                                      > > Non ;)
                                      > >
                                      > > prometheus wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Hello All,
                                      > > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                      > > > Letter I've read that
                                      > > > Klemp still needs to
                                      > > > update his Guidelines
                                      > > > for the H.I.s in the
                                      > > > field and chastise
                                      > > > those who are slow
                                      > > > to get with the program.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                      > > > want the freedom
                                      > > > of Soul to be more
                                      > > > individualistic,
                                      > > > spontaneous, and
                                      > > > creative by thinking
                                      > > > they (Soul) can operate
                                      > > > outside-of-the-box,
                                      > > > thus, being channels
                                      > > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                      > > > has previously stated
                                      > > > that he's imperfect,
                                      > > > but that's not the case
                                      > > > with the ECK, correct?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                      > > > their current (Present)
                                      > > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                      > > > followed versus that
                                      > > > of outer set-in-stone
                                      > > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                      > > > in the Past and approved
                                      > > > by a committee of imperfect
                                      > > > people on a plane ruled
                                      > > > by the KAL?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                      > > > that freedom of expression
                                      > > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                      > > > version of ECKankar.
                                      > > > It's a hierarchy where
                                      > > > everything is spelled
                                      > > > out and controlled
                                      > > > by him and his secret
                                      > > > RESA police, plus, all
                                      > > > field work must be
                                      > > > approved via the
                                      > > > current Guidelines.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Many inexperienced
                                      > > > EKists like the idea of
                                      > > > being told how to do
                                      > > > this or that and what
                                      > > > approved books to use
                                      > > > and what to say and
                                      > > > other details to make
                                      > > > the promotion of
                                      > > > Eckankar easier.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > But the real point the
                                      > > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                      > > > is to have EK PR more
                                      > > > consistent and cookie
                                      > > > cutter looking/sounding
                                      > > > for the public.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                      > > > are like following a
                                      > > > recipe set-in-stone
                                      > > > that disregards individual
                                      > > > or regional tastes and
                                      > > > disallows any additions
                                      > > > or omissions of other
                                      > > > ingredients, methods,
                                      > > > and/or spices.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                      > > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                      > > > change. He says they "rock
                                      > > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                      > > > that "it's all about fear."
                                      > > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                      > > > and "reinforce in each other
                                      > > > a group's opposition to
                                      > > > anything new." Strange
                                      > > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                      > > > subject to fear since he's
                                      > > > supposed to protect them!
                                      > > > This is how the KAL works.
                                      > > > Klemp is his agent.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > However, the real 'change'
                                      > > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                      > > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                      > > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                      > > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                      > > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                      > > > being bound to dogma.
                                      > > > HK side-steps delivering
                                      > > > on his promises of protection
                                      > > > and never has anything
                                      > > > profound to share. And,
                                      > > > where are those Higher
                                      > > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                      > > > yardsticks in measuring
                                      > > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                      > > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                      > > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                      > > > stingy and self-serving.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Harold goes on to say that
                                      > > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                      > > > on the path to God instead
                                      > > > of being stepping stones."
                                      > > > Apparently, being creative
                                      > > > and spontaneous and
                                      > > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                      > > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                      > > > permitted if it conflicts
                                      > > > with the LEM's outer,
                                      > > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The LEM states that, "We
                                      > > > are here to learn." However,
                                      > > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                      > > > from others since he never
                                      > > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                      > > > and doesn't partake in
                                      > > > two-way dialogues with
                                      > > > those under his authority.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                      > > > and unloving as he continues
                                      > > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                      > > > believe that if they sit still
                                      > > > and breathe only enough to
                                      > > > sustain life that they may
                                      > > > well dodge the lightning
                                      > > > strikes of irksome change."
                                      > > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                      > > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                      > > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                      > > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                      > > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                      > > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                      > > > that could have be averted
                                      > > > if they had gotten proper
                                      > > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                      > > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                      > > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                      > > > are meaningless... unless
                                      > > > you've given this Black
                                      > > > Magician power over you!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > But, it seems that HK
                                      > > > has something else stuck
                                      > > > in his craw. It seems to
                                      > > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                      > > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                      > > > still and Contemplating
                                      > > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                      > > > life. But why shouldn't
                                      > > > they take it easy after
                                      > > > 40 years of doing PR
                                      > > > work for Eckankar!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > So, what does Klemp
                                      > > > the All compassionate,
                                      > > > loving, positive, and
                                      > > > empathetic icon of EK
                                      > > > conclude?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                      > > > refuses to adhere to
                                      > > > the ECK Guidelines
                                      > > > needs to be addressed
                                      > > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                      > > > I wonder what that
                                      > > > really means? Well,
                                      > > > unless you're already
                                      > > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                      > > > next initiation good-bye
                                      > > > for like 10-20 years!
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Klemp continues to say,
                                      > > > "These are big stakes!
                                      > > > Continued refusal means
                                      > > > it's time for a replacement
                                      > > > to step in. A change is
                                      > > > due. Change. isn't it
                                      > > > funny how we have come
                                      > > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                      > > > really funny. Klemp
                                      > > > abuses the concept
                                      > > > of "change" and makes
                                      > > > it into a misnomer.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > What "changes" are there
                                      > > > in Eckankar? The same
                                      > > > old things are merely
                                      > > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                      > > > off and made to seem
                                      > > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                      > > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                      > > > a game of pretend by
                                      > > > creating brightly colored
                                      > > > straws to grab at and
                                      > > > cling to when drowning.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Too bad that EKists are
                                      > > > so deluded and needy
                                      > > > and aren't able to read
                                      > > > between the lines and
                                      > > > see the real truth behind
                                      > > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Prometheus
                                      >
                                    • Non
                                      Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
                                        Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                        Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                        http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                        Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                        In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                        I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                        Blessings

                                        Non ;)

                                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >Hello Janice,
                                        Most H.I.s have no idea
                                        how the EK Initiation
                                        process works. It's sad
                                        because there are some
                                        really nice and gentile
                                        chelas who have been
                                        passed over on the 5th.
                                        Some died as 4ths when
                                        they should have had
                                        some happiness, peace
                                        of mind, and contentment
                                        by receiving that 5th.
                                        I've know several eckists
                                        where this has happened.
                                        It was no big deal to give
                                        them their 5th initiation,
                                        but some RESAs are mean-
                                        spirited, lack empathy,
                                        and are petty. They've
                                        gotten caught up in HK's
                                        game. All Eckists should
                                        get the 5th after no more
                                        than 20 years, especially,
                                        when they participate
                                        and are kept current on
                                        their membership. However,
                                        that's not the way the
                                        power trip is played by
                                        some RESAs.

                                        I hate to admit this but
                                        I helped the RESA when
                                        asked about people. I
                                        was quizzed about those
                                        up for, usually, the 5th
                                        and 6th initiation. I was
                                        asked about what the EKist
                                        said, how they acted and
                                        conducted themselves
                                        and any unusual things
                                        that I noticed about
                                        their behavior or performance.
                                        And then I was asked for
                                        my opinion. Unfortunately
                                        my replies, I know, had
                                        some initiations delayed
                                        for these people and I
                                        regret that I got caught
                                        up in this petty mind game.
                                        Some of these people are
                                        still H.I.s and have no idea
                                        why they had to wait so
                                        long for their 5th or 6th.
                                        Many probably think that
                                        the Mahanta was testing
                                        them! LOL! On the other
                                        hand maybe some of them,
                                        by now, have been asked
                                        to evaluate people too.
                                        I wonder if they put two
                                        and two together and
                                        figured it out, unless,
                                        they were told why like
                                        I had been told.

                                        Why, though, should
                                        Klemp have a system
                                        for initiations that judges
                                        and punishes Eckists
                                        based upon our evaluations?
                                        Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                        of the Mahanta?

                                        Besides, a 5th is no big
                                        deal, and it's not like one
                                        becomes a cleric automatically
                                        with a 5th. Really, being
                                        an 5th is no more being
                                        an official representative
                                        of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                        Yes, most Eckists have
                                        no idea that a computer
                                        generated eligibility list
                                        is sent to the RESA by the
                                        ESC and that phone calls
                                        are made asking questions
                                        where subjective answers
                                        are given and that the RESA
                                        uses these to either approve
                                        and give a recommendation
                                        for initiation or doesn't.
                                        However, I will say that
                                        any "No" has to have an
                                        valid reason. The ESC
                                        usually follows the RESAs'
                                        recommendations.

                                        BTW- Janice, I think that
                                        your RESA approved of
                                        your initiation because
                                        he felt guilty for having
                                        yelled at you, plus, you
                                        could have reported him
                                        to the ESC. Maybe the
                                        initiation approval was
                                        meant to appease you?

                                        Prometheus



                                        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                        Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                        Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                        teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                        person?

                                        That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                        was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                        on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                        crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                        that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                        was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                        totally useless.

                                        In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                        about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                        I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                        of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                        didn't use his name at all.

                                        The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                        seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                        had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                        then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                        asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                        times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                        along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                        his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                        point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                        time and hung up.

                                        It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                        up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                        called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                        appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                        paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                        performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                        that was part of it.

                                        When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                        thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                        there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                        was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                        the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                        insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                        was enough.

                                        Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                        true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                        I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                        I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                        opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                        like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                        prometheus wrote:

                                        Hello Janice,
                                        Thanks for the interesting
                                        reply and the sharing of
                                        insights and experiences.
                                        I really really enjoyed it
                                        all.

                                        The reason why someone
                                        knew you received your
                                        pink slip is because the
                                        RESA gets an initiation
                                        eligibility list where he/
                                        she will mark yea/nay
                                        for an initiation. When
                                        the yea is checked the
                                        ESC (membership services)
                                        will more than likely issue
                                        the pink slip for the initiation.
                                        Or, the file has been red
                                        flagged for some reason.
                                        Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                        a temporary hold on higher
                                        initiations. Maybe it's due
                                        to pending requirements
                                        for training/retraining.
                                        The ESC will notify the
                                        RESA when the pink slip
                                        is sent.

                                        Most Eckists don't know
                                        how the initiation process
                                        works.

                                        The RESA has a membership
                                        list generated by the ESC
                                        for all those EKists in their
                                        region and it will show
                                        initiation level, one's status
                                        and date of membership
                                        among other info. If a
                                        new person sends in a
                                        membership form to the
                                        ESC from anywhere in
                                        the RESA's region the RESA
                                        will be notified of who
                                        they are and their mailing
                                        address.

                                        I was glad Ford Johnson
                                        wrote his book and that
                                        I was told about it by an
                                        Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                        The Irony is that he was
                                        doing Public Information
                                        and was quite the gossip.

                                        I always was the skeptic
                                        and had trouble with a lot
                                        of what I saw and experienced
                                        around H.I.s.

                                        When I was a lower initiate
                                        I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                        spiritual nor anywhere close
                                        to being enlightened. There
                                        were too many contradictions,
                                        restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                        Once you're an EK member
                                        the next step is to get you
                                        to become a volunteer on
                                        HK's sales team.

                                        I always wondered how
                                        was there an "inner" connection
                                        to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                        were still smoking and
                                        drinking alcohol, but
                                        getting promoted with
                                        more initiations? I knew
                                        of two 5ths who smoked
                                        and drank and got pink
                                        slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                        that Klemp knows nothing
                                        unless informed via phone
                                        or snailmail... email now!

                                        Yes, Janice, we were the
                                        ones awakened to the Truth
                                        while all of those "Higher"
                                        (pretend) Initiates are still
                                        sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                        become very skilled at
                                        regurgitating the PR and
                                        at facilitating and public
                                        speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                        no idea of what it's like
                                        to be Free thinkers and
                                        free of religion and of the
                                        EK Hierarchy. They think
                                        that their "spiritual experiences"
                                        are unique when these
                                        are common and similar
                                        experiences that all religious
                                        seekers have had... even
                                        Christians!

                                        Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                        in order to fill a void and
                                        to learn some important
                                        lessons about ourselves
                                        and about religion in general.

                                        IMO, Those who left
                                        Eckankar but still have
                                        a need for religion, haven't
                                        really learned that they
                                        will never find answers
                                        via a group consciousness
                                        or via a guru/master.
                                        True, it is nice to know
                                        people of like mind and
                                        to share things, but this
                                        can be a bad thing as well
                                        if we become too attached
                                        or lazy and want to play
                                        follow the leader again.

                                        It all comes down to one's
                                        private and personal experiences
                                        and inner revelations with
                                        oneSelf and with whatever
                                        catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                        Prometheus

                                        Janice wrote:
                                        I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                        it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                        people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                        The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                        new people.

                                        Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                        little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                        to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                        you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                        you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                        to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                        initiations.

                                        I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                        contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                        questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                        he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                        not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                        Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                        me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                        about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                        even.

                                        How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                        supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                        about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                        getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                        seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                        games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                        opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                        Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                        tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                        become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                        That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                        for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                        eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                        instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                        the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                        Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                        lucky that I got out when I did.

                                        The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                        lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                        they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                        in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                        good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                        that point the lies.

                                        Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                        like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                        not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                        define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                        individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                        responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                        after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                        I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                        individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                        the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                        in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                        this.

                                        I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                        maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                        spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                        all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                        the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                        own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                        quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                        I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                        mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                        there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                        Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                        they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                        spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                        slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                        getting out could lead to better things.

                                        Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                        reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                        your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                        to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                        serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                        the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                        are.

                                        Blessings to all of you.


                                        prometheus wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                        > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                        > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                        > and "explorer" positions at
                                        > the EK Centers would trip
                                        > over their egos and go on
                                        > power trips. Many seemed
                                        > cliquish and would huddle
                                        > together. Then, again, some
                                        > weren't all that friendly or
                                        > were very introverted and
                                        > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                        > including the clerics, to
                                        > greet and talk to all of the
                                        > new or seldom seen faces
                                        > that showed up. Many
                                        > only saw other Eckists at
                                        > the monthly EWS and this
                                        > was a time to catch up on
                                        > things. This is why I'd
                                        > suggest going to lunch
                                        > after the EWS and socializing.
                                        >
                                        > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                        > True? I think so!
                                        >
                                        > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                        > and requirements for Eckists
                                        > means that they must take
                                        > on extroverted roles in
                                        > order to become H.I.s.
                                        > Eckists must force themselves,
                                        > against their innate natures,
                                        > to become extroverted and
                                        > egocentric. These leadership
                                        > requirements create conflict,
                                        > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                        > Thus, this imbalance that
                                        > Klemp has created and
                                        > reenforces aids him in
                                        > the brainwashing of his
                                        > flock to have programmed
                                        > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                        > mystical experiences. But,
                                        > this has its toll and is why
                                        > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                        > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                        > and his anal control tactics.
                                        >
                                        > Sometimes, at special
                                        > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                        > and mini retreats the
                                        > long-time H.I.s, former
                                        > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                        > members would gather
                                        > around and gossip about
                                        > those absent or present.
                                        > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                        > gossip but rationalized
                                        > as more of an evaluative/
                                        > investigative discussion
                                        > for possible initiation
                                        > recommendation or for
                                        > a Satsang position appointment.
                                        > They wanted to know,
                                        > from sources who knew
                                        > them, if there were problems
                                        > with these EKists and, if
                                        > so, what the specific details
                                        > were. It was all ego driven
                                        > and subjective because we
                                        > were all volunteers and
                                        > had family and personal
                                        > lives too. But, it did weed
                                        > out those who weren't as
                                        > well indoctrinated....
                                        > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                        > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                        > much always a waste of
                                        > time so, in the long run,
                                        > enthusiasm was probably
                                        > more important than acting
                                        > the part. The Satsang positions
                                        > and duties kept people
                                        > busy, gave them a purpose
                                        > and made them feel good,
                                        > although, very stressed out.
                                        >
                                        > The Initiation game has made
                                        > Eckists struggle with denying
                                        > how much more they want of
                                        > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                        >
                                        > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                        > that an ESA told you that the
                                        > people at the EK Center were
                                        > crazy. That just isn't done
                                        > and is part of HK's agenda
                                        > of Silence and retraining.
                                        >
                                        > There's that old Buddha quote
                                        > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                        > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                        > and this is supposed to keep
                                        > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                        > sometimes get reported:
                                        > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                        > this I ask myself before I
                                        > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                        > following this criteria is very
                                        > subjective and could or would
                                        > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                        > conservations.
                                        >
                                        > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                        > may be "true" for you and
                                        > for most people but not
                                        > not for all people. And, is
                                        > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                        > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                        > this within earshot of people
                                        > who aren't feeling well or
                                        > who can't enjoy the day?
                                        > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                        > to keep the critics of his
                                        > policies and of his H.I.s
                                        > to a minimum.
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                        > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                        > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                        > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                        > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned
                                        off
                                        > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my
                                        job
                                        > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's
                                        been
                                        > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                        > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                        > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                        >
                                        > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                        > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                        >
                                        > Good to be away from it.
                                        >
                                        > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                        >
                                        > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from
                                        the
                                        > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                        > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because
                                        certainly
                                        > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                        > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                        > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                        > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                        > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                        > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                        > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                        > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                        > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any
                                        of
                                        > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                        > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                        > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony.
                                        I
                                        > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me
                                        in
                                        > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                        > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                        > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                        > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                        > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                        > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was
                                        asked
                                        > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                        > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                        > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                        > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                        > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                        > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                        >
                                        > Russ wrote:
                                        > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                        > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set
                                        him
                                        > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                        > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                        >
                                        > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense
                                        of
                                        > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                        > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among
                                        other
                                        > things.
                                        >
                                        > Russ
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > prometheus wrote:
                                        > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                        > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                        > that Klemp has enough of
                                        > a problem that he used it
                                        > in the ASK The MASTER
                                        > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                        > And, it was the only question!
                                        > They had, supposedly, an
                                        > H.I. write-in and point out
                                        > the problem. No name given.
                                        >
                                        > I remember when I had
                                        > to deal with some older
                                        > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                        > coordinator and director
                                        > positions and it was
                                        > impossible to get this
                                        > one to follow the Guidelines
                                        > on EK Worship Services
                                        > (EWS). Many long-time
                                        > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                        > Guidelines and my
                                        > RESA turned a blind-
                                        > eye to it all. We had
                                        > so many former RESAs
                                        > in volunteer positions
                                        > that it was impossible
                                        > to get them on the
                                        > same page and to follow
                                        > procedures. I think
                                        > that some were just
                                        > burned out and tired
                                        > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                        > didn't want to leave.
                                        > Maybe they had too
                                        > many friendships to
                                        > lose. Plus, let's face
                                        > it. A lot of these people
                                        > are losers in the real
                                        > world but are big shots
                                        > in Eckankar. Those
                                        > Higher Initiations are
                                        > a big deal to the ego!
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                        > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones.
                                        I
                                        > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing
                                        to
                                        > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become
                                        brittle
                                        > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity
                                        and
                                        > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                        >
                                        > Non ;)
                                        >
                                        > prometheus wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello All,
                                        > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                        > > Letter I've read that
                                        > > Klemp still needs to
                                        > > update his Guidelines
                                        > > for the H.I.s in the
                                        > > field and chastise
                                        > > those who are slow
                                        > > to get with the program.
                                        > >
                                        > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                        > > want the freedom
                                        > > of Soul to be more
                                        > > individualistic,
                                        > > spontaneous, and
                                        > > creative by thinking
                                        > > they (Soul) can operate
                                        > > outside-of-the-box,
                                        > > thus, being channels
                                        > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                        > > has previously stated
                                        > > that he's imperfect,
                                        > > but that's not the case
                                        > > with the ECK, correct?
                                        > >
                                        > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                        > > their current (Present)
                                        > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                        > > followed versus that
                                        > > of outer set-in-stone
                                        > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                        > > in the Past and approved
                                        > > by a committee of imperfect
                                        > > people on a plane ruled
                                        > > by the KAL?
                                        > >
                                        > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                        > > that freedom of expression
                                        > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                        > > version of ECKankar.
                                        > > It's a hierarchy where
                                        > > everything is spelled
                                        > > out and controlled
                                        > > by him and his secret
                                        > > RESA police, plus, all
                                        > > field work must be
                                        > > approved via the
                                        > > current Guidelines.
                                        > >
                                        > > Many inexperienced
                                        > > EKists like the idea of
                                        > > being told how to do
                                        > > this or that and what
                                        > > approved books to use
                                        > > and what to say and
                                        > > other details to make
                                        > > the promotion of
                                        > > Eckankar easier.
                                        > >
                                        > > But the real point the
                                        > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                        > > is to have EK PR more
                                        > > consistent and cookie
                                        > > cutter looking/sounding
                                        > > for the public.
                                        > >
                                        > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                        > > are like following a
                                        > > recipe set-in-stone
                                        > > that disregards individual
                                        > > or regional tastes and
                                        > > disallows any additions
                                        > > or omissions of other
                                        > > ingredients, methods,
                                        > > and/or spices.
                                        > >
                                        > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                        > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                        > > change. He says they "rock
                                        > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                        > > that "it's all about fear."
                                        > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                        > > and "reinforce in each other
                                        > > a group's opposition to
                                        > > anything new." Strange
                                        > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                        > > subject to fear since he's
                                        > > supposed to protect them!
                                        > > This is how the KAL works.
                                        > > Klemp is his agent.
                                        > >
                                        > > However, the real 'change'
                                        > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                        > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                        > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                        > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                        > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                        > > being bound to dogma.
                                        > > HK side-steps delivering
                                        > > on his promises of protection
                                        > > and never has anything
                                        > > profound to share. And,
                                        > > where are those Higher
                                        > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                        > > yardsticks in measuring
                                        > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                        > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                        > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                        > > stingy and self-serving.
                                        > >
                                        > > Harold goes on to say that
                                        > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                        > > on the path to God instead
                                        > > of being stepping stones."
                                        > > Apparently, being creative
                                        > > and spontaneous and
                                        > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                        > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                        > > permitted if it conflicts
                                        > > with the LEM's outer,
                                        > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                        > >
                                        > > The LEM states that, "We
                                        > > are here to learn." However,
                                        > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                        > > from others since he never
                                        > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                        > > and doesn't partake in
                                        > > two-way dialogues with
                                        > > those under his authority.
                                        > >
                                        > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                        > > and unloving as he continues
                                        > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                        > > believe that if they sit still
                                        > > and breathe only enough to
                                        > > sustain life that they may
                                        > > well dodge the lightning
                                        > > strikes of irksome change."
                                        > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                        > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                        > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                        > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                        > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                        > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                        > > that could have be averted
                                        > > if they had gotten proper
                                        > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                        > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                        > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                        > > are meaningless... unless
                                        > > you've given this Black
                                        > > Magician power over you!
                                        > >
                                        > > But, it seems that HK
                                        > > has something else stuck
                                        > > in his craw. It seems to
                                        > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                        > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                        > > still and Contemplating
                                        > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                        > > life. But why shouldn't
                                        > > they take it easy after
                                        > > 40 years of doing PR
                                        > > work for Eckankar!
                                        > >
                                        > > So, what does Klemp
                                        > > the All compassionate,
                                        > > loving, positive, and
                                        > > empathetic icon of EK
                                        > > conclude?
                                        > >
                                        > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                        > > refuses to adhere to
                                        > > the ECK Guidelines
                                        > > needs to be addressed
                                        > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                        > > I wonder what that
                                        > > really means? Well,
                                        > > unless you're already
                                        > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                        > > next initiation good-bye
                                        > > for like 10-20 years!
                                        > >
                                        > > Klemp continues to say,
                                        > > "These are big stakes!
                                        > > Continued refusal means
                                        > > it's time for a replacement
                                        > > to step in. A change is
                                        > > due. Change. isn't it
                                        > > funny how we have come
                                        > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                        > > really funny. Klemp
                                        > > abuses the concept
                                        > > of "change" and makes
                                        > > it into a misnomer.
                                        > >
                                        > > What "changes" are there
                                        > > in Eckankar? The same
                                        > > old things are merely
                                        > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                        > > off and made to seem
                                        > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                        > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                        > > a game of pretend by
                                        > > creating brightly colored
                                        > > straws to grab at and
                                        > > cling to when drowning.
                                        > >
                                        > > Too bad that EKists are
                                        > > so deluded and needy
                                        > > and aren't able to read
                                        > > between the lines and
                                        > > see the real truth behind
                                        > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                      • Janice Pfeiffer
                                        I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things.  I should have told you that in response when you told me what
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
                                          I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things.  I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations.  I did admire you for it also.  I apologize for not telling you then.
                                           
                                          At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time.  There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others. 
                                           
                                          Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join.  I did go in of my own free will like everybody else.  I opened myself up to it, like everybody else.  So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts.  We chose to join eckankar.
                                           
                                          Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it.  You were one of those. 
                                           
                                          Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people?    Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others. 
                                           
                                          I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get.  Do you think those who passed on, do?  It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.
                                           
                                          By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart. 
                                           
                                          Be at peace 
                                           
                                          Janice
                                           
                                           
                                           


                                          --- On Sun, 12/16/12, Non <eckchains@...> wrote:

                                          From: Non <eckchains@...>
                                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Sunday, December 16, 2012, 6:02 AM

                                           
                                          Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                          Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                          http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                          Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                          In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                          I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                          Blessings

                                          Non ;)

                                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >Hello Janice,
                                          Most H.I.s have no idea
                                          how the EK Initiation
                                          process works. It's sad
                                          because there are some
                                          really nice and gentile
                                          chelas who have been
                                          passed over on the 5th.
                                          Some died as 4ths when
                                          they should have had
                                          some happiness, peace
                                          of mind, and contentment
                                          by receiving that 5th.
                                          I've know several eckists
                                          where this has happened.
                                          It was no big deal to give
                                          them their 5th initiation,
                                          but some RESAs are mean-
                                          spirited, lack empathy,
                                          and are petty. They've
                                          gotten caught up in HK's
                                          game. All Eckists should
                                          get the 5th after no more
                                          than 20 years, especially,
                                          when they participate
                                          and are kept current on
                                          their membership. However,
                                          that's not the way the
                                          power trip is played by
                                          some RESAs.

                                          I hate to admit this but
                                          I helped the RESA when
                                          asked about people. I
                                          was quizzed about those
                                          up for, usually, the 5th
                                          and 6th initiation. I was
                                          asked about what the EKist
                                          said, how they acted and
                                          conducted themselves
                                          and any unusual things
                                          that I noticed about
                                          their behavior or performance.
                                          And then I was asked for
                                          my opinion. Unfortunately
                                          my replies, I know, had
                                          some initiations delayed
                                          for these people and I
                                          regret that I got caught
                                          up in this petty mind game.
                                          Some of these people are
                                          still H.I.s and have no idea
                                          why they had to wait so
                                          long for their 5th or 6th.
                                          Many probably think that
                                          the Mahanta was testing
                                          them! LOL! On the other
                                          hand maybe some of them,
                                          by now, have been asked
                                          to evaluate people too.
                                          I wonder if they put two
                                          and two together and
                                          figured it out, unless,
                                          they were told why like
                                          I had been told.

                                          Why, though, should
                                          Klemp have a system
                                          for initiations that judges
                                          and punishes Eckists
                                          based upon our evaluations?
                                          Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                          of the Mahanta?

                                          Besides, a 5th is no big
                                          deal, and it's not like one
                                          becomes a cleric automatically
                                          with a 5th. Really, being
                                          an 5th is no more being
                                          an official representative
                                          of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                          Yes, most Eckists have
                                          no idea that a computer
                                          generated eligibility list
                                          is sent to the RESA by the
                                          ESC and that phone calls
                                          are made asking questions
                                          where subjective answers
                                          are given and that the RESA
                                          uses these to either approve
                                          and give a recommendation
                                          for initiation or doesn't.
                                          However, I will say that
                                          any "No" has to have an
                                          valid reason. The ESC
                                          usually follows the RESAs'
                                          recommendations.

                                          BTW- Janice, I think that
                                          your RESA approved of
                                          your initiation because
                                          he felt guilty for having
                                          yelled at you, plus, you
                                          could have reported him
                                          to the ESC. Maybe the
                                          initiation approval was
                                          meant to appease you?

                                          Prometheus

                                          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                          Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                          teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                          person?

                                          That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                          was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                          on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                          crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                          that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                          was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                          totally useless.

                                          In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                          about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                          I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                          of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                          didn't use his name at all.

                                          The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                          seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                          had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                          then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                          asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                          times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                          along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                          his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                          point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                          time and hung up.

                                          It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                          up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                          called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                          appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                          paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                          performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                          that was part of it.

                                          When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                          thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                          there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                          was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                          the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                          insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                          was enough.

                                          Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                          true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                          I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                          I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                          opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                          like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                          prometheus wrote:

                                          Hello Janice,
                                          Thanks for the interesting
                                          reply and the sharing of
                                          insights and experiences.
                                          I really really enjoyed it
                                          all.

                                          The reason why someone
                                          knew you received your
                                          pink slip is because the
                                          RESA gets an initiation
                                          eligibility list where he/
                                          she will mark yea/nay
                                          for an initiation. When
                                          the yea is checked the
                                          ESC (membership services)
                                          will more than likely issue
                                          the pink slip for the initiation.
                                          Or, the file has been red
                                          flagged for some reason.
                                          Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                          a temporary hold on higher
                                          initiations. Maybe it's due
                                          to pending requirements
                                          for training/retraining.
                                          The ESC will notify the
                                          RESA when the pink slip
                                          is sent.

                                          Most Eckists don't know
                                          how the initiation process
                                          works.

                                          The RESA has a membership
                                          list generated by the ESC
                                          for all those EKists in their
                                          region and it will show
                                          initiation level, one's status
                                          and date of membership
                                          among other info. If a
                                          new person sends in a
                                          membership form to the
                                          ESC from anywhere in
                                          the RESA's region the RESA
                                          will be notified of who
                                          they are and their mailing
                                          address.

                                          I was glad Ford Johnson
                                          wrote his book and that
                                          I was told about it by an
                                          Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                          The Irony is that he was
                                          doing Public Information
                                          and was quite the gossip.

                                          I always was the skeptic
                                          and had trouble with a lot
                                          of what I saw and experienced
                                          around H.I.s.

                                          When I was a lower initiate
                                          I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                          spiritual nor anywhere close
                                          to being enlightened. There
                                          were too many contradictions,
                                          restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                          Once you're an EK member
                                          the next step is to get you
                                          to become a volunteer on
                                          HK's sales team.

                                          I always wondered how
                                          was there an "inner" connection
                                          to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                          were still smoking and
                                          drinking alcohol, but
                                          getting promoted with
                                          more initiations? I knew
                                          of two 5ths who smoked
                                          and drank and got pink
                                          slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                          that Klemp knows nothing
                                          unless informed via phone
                                          or snailmail... email now!

                                          Yes, Janice, we were the
                                          ones awakened to the Truth
                                          while all of those "Higher"
                                          (pretend) Initiates are still
                                          sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                          become very skilled at
                                          regurgitating the PR and
                                          at facilitating and public
                                          speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                          no idea of what it's like
                                          to be Free thinkers and
                                          free of religion and of the
                                          EK Hierarchy. They think
                                          that their "spiritual experiences"
                                          are unique when these
                                          are common and similar
                                          experiences that all religious
                                          seekers have had... even
                                          Christians!

                                          Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                          in order to fill a void and
                                          to learn some important
                                          lessons about ourselves
                                          and about religion in general.

                                          IMO, Those who left
                                          Eckankar but still have
                                          a need for religion, haven't
                                          really learned that they
                                          will never find answers
                                          via a group consciousness
                                          or via a guru/master.
                                          True, it is nice to know
                                          people of like mind and
                                          to share things, but this
                                          can be a bad thing as well
                                          if we become too attached
                                          or lazy and want to play
                                          follow the leader again.

                                          It all comes down to one's
                                          private and personal experiences
                                          and inner revelations with
                                          oneSelf and with whatever
                                          catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                          Prometheus

                                          Janice wrote:
                                          I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                          it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                          people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                          The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                          new people.

                                          Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                          little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                          to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                          you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                          you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                          to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                          initiations.

                                          I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                          contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                          questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                          he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                          not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                          Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                          me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                          about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                          even.

                                          How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                          supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                          about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                          getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                          seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                          games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                          opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                          Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                          tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                          become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                          That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                          for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                          eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                          instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                          the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                          Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                          lucky that I got out when I did.

                                          The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                          lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                          they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                          in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                          good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                          that point the lies.

                                          Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                          like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                          not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                          define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                          individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                          responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                          after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                          I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                          individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                          the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                          in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                          this.

                                          I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                          maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                          spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                          all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                          the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                          own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                          quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                          I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                          mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                          there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                          Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                          they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                          spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                          slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                          getting out could lead to better things.

                                          Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                          reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                          your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                          to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                          serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                          the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                          are.

                                          Blessings to all of you.

                                          prometheus wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                          > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                          > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                          > and "explorer" positions at
                                          > the EK Centers would trip
                                          > over their egos and go on
                                          > power trips. Many seemed
                                          > cliquish and would huddle
                                          > together. Then, again, some
                                          > weren't all that friendly or
                                          > were very introverted and
                                          > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                          > including the clerics, to
                                          > greet and talk to all of the
                                          > new or seldom seen faces
                                          > that showed up. Many
                                          > only saw other Eckists at
                                          > the monthly EWS and this
                                          > was a time to catch up on
                                          > things. This is why I'd
                                          > suggest going to lunch
                                          > after the EWS and socializing.
                                          >
                                          > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                          > True? I think so!
                                          >
                                          > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                          > and requirements for Eckists
                                          > means that they must take
                                          > on extroverted roles in
                                          > order to become H.I.s.
                                          > Eckists must force themselves,
                                          > against their innate natures,
                                          > to become extroverted and
                                          > egocentric. These leadership
                                          > requirements create conflict,
                                          > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                          > Thus, this imbalance that
                                          > Klemp has created and
                                          > reenforces aids him in
                                          > the brainwashing of his
                                          > flock to have programmed
                                          > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                          > mystical experiences. But,
                                          > this has its toll and is why
                                          > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                          > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                          > and his anal control tactics.
                                          >
                                          > Sometimes, at special
                                          > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                          > and mini retreats the
                                          > long-time H.I.s, former
                                          > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                          > members would gather
                                          > around and gossip about
                                          > those absent or present.
                                          > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                          > gossip but rationalized
                                          > as more of an evaluative/
                                          > investigative discussion
                                          > for possible initiation
                                          > recommendation or for
                                          > a Satsang position appointment.
                                          > They wanted to know,
                                          > from sources who knew
                                          > them, if there were problems
                                          > with these EKists and, if
                                          > so, what the specific details
                                          > were. It was all ego driven
                                          > and subjective because we
                                          > were all volunteers and
                                          > had family and personal
                                          > lives too. But, it did weed
                                          > out those who weren't as
                                          > well indoctrinated....
                                          > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                          > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                          > much always a waste of
                                          > time so, in the long run,
                                          > enthusiasm was probably
                                          > more important than acting
                                          > the part. The Satsang positions
                                          > and duties kept people
                                          > busy, gave them a purpose
                                          > and made them feel good,
                                          > although, very stressed out.
                                          >
                                          > The Initiation game has made
                                          > Eckists struggle with denying
                                          > how much more they want of
                                          > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                          >
                                          > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                          > that an ESA told you that the
                                          > people at the EK Center were
                                          > crazy. That just isn't done
                                          > and is part of HK's agenda
                                          > of Silence and retraining.
                                          >
                                          > There's that old Buddha quote
                                          > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                          > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                          > and this is supposed to keep
                                          > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                          > sometimes get reported:
                                          > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                          > this I ask myself before I
                                          > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                          > following this criteria is very
                                          > subjective and could or would
                                          > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                          > conservations.
                                          >
                                          > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                          > may be "true" for you and
                                          > for most people but not
                                          > not for all people. And, is
                                          > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                          > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                          > this within earshot of people
                                          > who aren't feeling well or
                                          > who can't enjoy the day?
                                          > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                          > to keep the critics of his
                                          > policies and of his H.I.s
                                          > to a minimum.
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                          > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                          > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                          > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                          > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned
                                          off
                                          > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my
                                          job
                                          > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's
                                          been
                                          > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                          > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                          > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                          >
                                          > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                          > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                          >
                                          > Good to be away from it.
                                          >
                                          > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from
                                          the
                                          > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                          > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because
                                          certainly
                                          > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                          > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                          > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                          > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                          > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                          > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                          > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                          > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                          > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any
                                          of
                                          > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                          > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                          > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony.
                                          I
                                          > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me
                                          in
                                          > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                          > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                          > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                          > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                          > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                          > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was
                                          asked
                                          > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                          > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                          > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                          > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                          > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                          > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                          >
                                          > Russ wrote:
                                          > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                          > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set
                                          him
                                          > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                          > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                          >
                                          > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense
                                          of
                                          > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                          > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among
                                          other
                                          > things.
                                          >
                                          > Russ
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > prometheus wrote:
                                          > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                          > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                          > that Klemp has enough of
                                          > a problem that he used it
                                          > in the ASK The MASTER
                                          > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                          > And, it was the only question!
                                          > They had, supposedly, an
                                          > H.I. write-in and point out
                                          > the problem. No name given.
                                          >
                                          > I remember when I had
                                          > to deal with some older
                                          > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                          > coordinator and director
                                          > positions and it was
                                          > impossible to get this
                                          > one to follow the Guidelines
                                          > on EK Worship Services
                                          > (EWS). Many long-time
                                          > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                          > Guidelines and my
                                          > RESA turned a blind-
                                          > eye to it all. We had
                                          > so many former RESAs
                                          > in volunteer positions
                                          > that it was impossible
                                          > to get them on the
                                          > same page and to follow
                                          > procedures. I think
                                          > that some were just
                                          > burned out and tired
                                          > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                          > didn't want to leave.
                                          > Maybe they had too
                                          > many friendships to
                                          > lose. Plus, let's face
                                          > it. A lot of these people
                                          > are losers in the real
                                          > world but are big shots
                                          > in Eckankar. Those
                                          > Higher Initiations are
                                          > a big deal to the ego!
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                          > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones.
                                          I
                                          > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing
                                          to
                                          > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become
                                          brittle
                                          > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity
                                          and
                                          > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                          >
                                          > Non ;)
                                          >
                                          > prometheus wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hello All,
                                          > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                          > > Letter I've read that
                                          > > Klemp still needs to
                                          > > update his Guidelines
                                          > > for the H.I.s in the
                                          > > field and chastise
                                          > > those who are slow
                                          > > to get with the program.
                                          > >
                                          > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                          > > want the freedom
                                          > > of Soul to be more
                                          > > individualistic,
                                          > > spontaneous, and
                                          > > creative by thinking
                                          > > they (Soul) can operate
                                          > > outside-of-the-box,
                                          > > thus, being channels
                                          > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                          > > has previously stated
                                          > > that he's imperfect,
                                          > > but that's not the case
                                          > > with the ECK, correct?
                                          > >
                                          > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                          > > their current (Present)
                                          > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                          > > followed versus that
                                          > > of outer set-in-stone
                                          > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                          > > in the Past and approved
                                          > > by a committee of imperfect
                                          > > people on a plane ruled
                                          > > by the KAL?
                                          > >
                                          > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                          > > that freedom of expression
                                          > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                          > > version of ECKankar.
                                          > > It's a hierarchy where
                                          > > everything is spelled
                                          > > out and controlled
                                          > > by him and his secret
                                          > > RESA police, plus, all
                                          > > field work must be
                                          > > approved via the
                                          > > current Guidelines.
                                          > >
                                          > > Many inexperienced
                                          > > EKists like the idea of
                                          > > being told how to do
                                          > > this or that and what
                                          > > approved books to use
                                          > > and what to say and
                                          > > other details to make
                                          > > the promotion of
                                          > > Eckankar easier.
                                          > >
                                          > > But the real point the
                                          > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                          > > is to have EK PR more
                                          > > consistent and cookie
                                          > > cutter looking/sounding
                                          > > for the public.
                                          > >
                                          > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                          > > are like following a
                                          > > recipe set-in-stone
                                          > > that disregards individual
                                          > > or regional tastes and
                                          > > disallows any additions
                                          > > or omissions of other
                                          > > ingredients, methods,
                                          > > and/or spices.
                                          > >
                                          > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                          > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                          > > change. He says they "rock
                                          > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                          > > that "it's all about fear."
                                          > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                          > > and "reinforce in each other
                                          > > a group's opposition to
                                          > > anything new." Strange
                                          > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                          > > subject to fear since he's
                                          > > supposed to protect them!
                                          > > This is how the KAL works.
                                          > > Klemp is his agent.
                                          > >
                                          > > However, the real 'change'
                                          > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                          > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                          > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                          > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                          > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                          > > being bound to dogma.
                                          > > HK side-steps delivering
                                          > > on his promises of protection
                                          > > and never has anything
                                          > > profound to share. And,
                                          > > where are those Higher
                                          > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                          > > yardsticks in measuring
                                          > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                          > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                          > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                          > > stingy and self-serving.
                                          > >
                                          > > Harold goes on to say that
                                          > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                          > > on the path to God instead
                                          > > of being stepping stones."
                                          > > Apparently, being creative
                                          > > and spontaneous and
                                          > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                          > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                          > > permitted if it conflicts
                                          > > with the LEM's outer,
                                          > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                          > >
                                          > > The LEM states that, "We
                                          > > are here to learn." However,
                                          > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                          > > from others since he never
                                          > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                          > > and doesn't partake in
                                          > > two-way dialogues with
                                          > > those under his authority.
                                          > >
                                          > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                          > > and unloving as he continues
                                          > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                          > > believe that if they sit still
                                          > > and breathe only enough to
                                          > > sustain life that they may
                                          > > well dodge the lightning
                                          > > strikes of irksome change."
                                          > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                          > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                          > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                          > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                          > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                          > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                          > > that could have be averted
                                          > > if they had gotten proper
                                          > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                          > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                          > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                          > > are meaningless... unless
                                          > > you've given this Black
                                          > > Magician power over you!
                                          > >
                                          > > But, it seems that HK
                                          > > has something else stuck
                                          > > in his craw. It seems to
                                          > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                          > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                          > > still and Contemplating
                                          > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                          > > life. But why shouldn't
                                          > > they take it easy after
                                          > > 40 years of doing PR
                                          > > work for Eckankar!
                                          > >
                                          > > So, what does Klemp
                                          > > the All compassionate,
                                          > > loving, positive, and
                                          > > empathetic icon of EK
                                          > > conclude?
                                          > >
                                          > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                          > > refuses to adhere to
                                          > > the ECK Guidelines
                                          > > needs to be addressed
                                          > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                          > > I wonder what that
                                          > > really means? Well,
                                          > > unless you're already
                                          > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                          > > next initiation good-bye
                                          > > for like 10-20 years!
                                          > >
                                          > > Klemp continues to say,
                                          > > "These are big stakes!
                                          > > Continued refusal means
                                          > > it's time for a replacement
                                          > > to step in. A change is
                                          > > due. Change. isn't it
                                          > > funny how we have come
                                          > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                          > > really funny. Klemp
                                          > > abuses the concept
                                          > > of "change" and makes
                                          > > it into a misnomer.
                                          > >
                                          > > What "changes" are there
                                          > > in Eckankar? The same
                                          > > old things are merely
                                          > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                          > > off and made to seem
                                          > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                          > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                          > > a game of pretend by
                                          > > creating brightly colored
                                          > > straws to grab at and
                                          > > cling to when drowning.
                                          > >
                                          > > Too bad that EKists are
                                          > > so deluded and needy
                                          > > and aren't able to read
                                          > > between the lines and
                                          > > see the real truth behind
                                          > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                          > >
                                          > > Prometheus

                                        • Janice Pfeiffer
                                          Hi Russ,   I am sorry if my talk about initiations disturbed you in any way.  It is a disturbing thing to come to grips with since you are told right from
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
                                            Hi Russ,
                                             
                                            I am sorry if my talk about initiations disturbed you in any way.  It is a disturbing thing to come to grips with since you are told right from the start that those sacred initiations come from the mahanta. 
                                             
                                            I hope all goes well with you as you take the final stages of leaving eckankar.  I hope you will find comfort in knowing that you can stand on your own and any growth you had while in, you still have.  All along you were doing it for yourself, and you still can.
                                             
                                            I know you have the strength and courage to do anything you feel you have to do.  I hope you know that this site is a great place to get support should you needed. 
                                             
                                            Please know I will be thinking of you in the coming weeks and I will be sending warm thoughts your way.
                                             
                                            Keep your chin up and please know you are a very good person person.
                                             
                                            Janice

                                            --- On Sat, 12/15/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                                            From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                            To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 3:35 PM

                                             
                                            Janice,

                                            I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member. 

                                            I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'. 

                                            That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                                            On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                                            I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know. 

                                            Later,
                                            Russ


                                            From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:37 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                                             
                                            Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                                             
                                            Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                                             
                                            That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                                             
                                            In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                                             
                                             I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                                             
                                            The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                                             
                                            It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                                             
                                            When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                                             
                                            Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                                             
                                            I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                                            --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                                             
                                            Hello Janice,
                                            Thanks for the interesting
                                            reply and the sharing of
                                            insights and experiences.
                                            I really really enjoyed it
                                            all.

                                            The reason why someone
                                            knew you received your
                                            pink slip is because the
                                            RESA gets an initiation
                                            eligibility list where he/
                                            she will mark yea/nay
                                            for an initiation. When
                                            the yea is checked the
                                            ESC (membership services)
                                            will more than likely issue
                                            the pink slip for the initiation.
                                            Or, the file has been red
                                            flagged for some reason.
                                            Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                            a temporary hold on higher
                                            initiations. Maybe it's due
                                            to pending requirements
                                            for training/retraining.
                                            The ESC will notify the
                                            RESA when the pink slip
                                            is sent.

                                            Most Eckists don't know
                                            how the initiation process
                                            works.

                                            The RESA has a membership
                                            list generated by the ESC
                                            for all those EKists in their
                                            region and it will show
                                            initiation level, one's status
                                            and date of membership
                                            among other info. If a
                                            new person sends in a
                                            membership form to the
                                            ESC from anywhere in
                                            the RESA's region the RESA
                                            will be notified of who
                                            they are and their mailing
                                            address.

                                            I was glad Ford Johnson
                                            wrote his book and that
                                            I was told about it by an
                                            Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                            The Irony is that he was
                                            doing Public Information
                                            and was quite the gossip.

                                            I always was the skeptic
                                            and had trouble with a lot
                                            of what I saw and experienced
                                            around H.I.s.

                                            When I was a lower initiate
                                            I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                            spiritual nor anywhere close
                                            to being enlightened. There
                                            were too many contradictions,
                                            restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                            Once you're an EK member
                                            the next step is to get you
                                            to become a volunteer on
                                            HK's sales team.

                                            I always wondered how
                                            was there an "inner" connection
                                            to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                            were still smoking and
                                            drinking alcohol, but
                                            getting promoted with
                                            more initiations? I knew
                                            of two 5ths who smoked
                                            and drank and got pink
                                            slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                            that Klemp knows nothing
                                            unless informed via phone
                                            or snailmail... email now!

                                            Yes, Janice, we were the
                                            ones awakened to the Truth
                                            while all of those "Higher"
                                            (pretend) Initiates are still
                                            sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                            become very skilled at
                                            regurgitating the PR and
                                            at facilitating and public
                                            speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                            no idea of what it's like
                                            to be Free thinkers and
                                            free of religion and of the
                                            EK Hierarchy. They think
                                            that their "spiritual experiences"
                                            are unique when these
                                            are common and similar
                                            experiences that all religious
                                            seekers have had... even
                                            Christians!

                                            Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                            in order to fill a void and
                                            to learn some important
                                            lessons about ourselves
                                            and about religion in general.

                                            IMO, Those who left
                                            Eckankar but still have
                                            a need for religion, haven't
                                            really learned that they
                                            will never find answers
                                            via a group consciousness
                                            or via a guru/master.
                                            True, it is nice to know
                                            people of like mind and
                                            to share things, but this
                                            can be a bad thing as well
                                            if we become too attached
                                            or lazy and want to play
                                            follow the leader again.

                                            It all comes down to one's
                                            private and personal experiences
                                            and inner revelations with
                                            oneSelf and with whatever
                                            catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                            Prometheus

                                            Janice wrote:
                                            I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                            Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                            I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                            Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                            How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                            That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                            The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                            Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                            I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                            I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                            I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                            Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                            Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                            Blessings to all of you.


                                            prometheus wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                            > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                            > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                            > and "explorer" positions at
                                            > the EK Centers would trip
                                            > over their egos and go on
                                            > power trips. Many seemed
                                            > cliquish and would huddle
                                            > together. Then, again, some
                                            > weren't all that friendly or
                                            > were very introverted and
                                            > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                            > including the clerics, to
                                            > greet and talk to all of the
                                            > new or seldom seen faces
                                            > that showed up. Many
                                            > only saw other Eckists at
                                            > the monthly EWS and this
                                            > was a time to catch up on
                                            > things. This is why I'd
                                            > suggest going to lunch
                                            > after the EWS and socializing.
                                            >
                                            > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                            > True? I think so!
                                            >
                                            > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                            > and requirements for Eckists
                                            > means that they must take
                                            > on extroverted roles in
                                            > order to become H.I.s.
                                            > Eckists must force themselves,
                                            > against their innate natures,
                                            > to become extroverted and
                                            > egocentric. These leadership
                                            > requirements create conflict,
                                            > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                            > Thus, this imbalance that
                                            > Klemp has created and
                                            > reenforces aids him in
                                            > the brainwashing of his
                                            > flock to have programmed
                                            > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                            > mystical experiences. But,
                                            > this has its toll and is why
                                            > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                            > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                            > and his anal control tactics.
                                            >
                                            > Sometimes, at special
                                            > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                            > and mini retreats the
                                            > long-time H.I.s, former
                                            > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                            > members would gather
                                            > around and gossip about
                                            > those absent or present.
                                            > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                            > gossip but rationalized
                                            > as more of an evaluative/
                                            > investigative discussion
                                            > for possible initiation
                                            > recommendation or for
                                            > a Satsang position appointment.
                                            > They wanted to know,
                                            > from sources who knew
                                            > them, if there were problems
                                            > with these EKists and, if
                                            > so, what the specific details
                                            > were. It was all ego driven
                                            > and subjective because we
                                            > were all volunteers and
                                            > had family and personal
                                            > lives too. But, it did weed
                                            > out those who weren't as
                                            > well indoctrinated....
                                            > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                            > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                            > much always a waste of
                                            > time so, in the long run,
                                            > enthusiasm was probably
                                            > more important than acting
                                            > the part. The Satsang positions
                                            > and duties kept people
                                            > busy, gave them a purpose
                                            > and made them feel good,
                                            > although, very stressed out.
                                            >
                                            > The Initiation game has made
                                            > Eckists struggle with denying
                                            > how much more they want of
                                            > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                            >
                                            > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                            > that an ESA told you that the
                                            > people at the EK Center were
                                            > crazy. That just isn't done
                                            > and is part of HK's agenda
                                            > of Silence and retraining.
                                            >
                                            > There's that old Buddha quote
                                            > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                            > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                            > and this is supposed to keep
                                            > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                            > sometimes get reported:
                                            > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                            > this I ask myself before I
                                            > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                            > following this criteria is very
                                            > subjective and could or would
                                            > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                            > conservations.
                                            >
                                            > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                            > may be "true" for you and
                                            > for most people but not
                                            > not for all people. And, is
                                            > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                            > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                            > this within earshot of people
                                            > who aren't feeling well or
                                            > who can't enjoy the day?
                                            > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                            > to keep the critics of his
                                            > policies and of his H.I.s
                                            > to a minimum.
                                            >
                                            > Prometheus
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                            > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                            > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                            > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                            > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                            > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                            > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                            > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                            > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                            > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                            >
                                            > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                            > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                            >
                                            > Good to be away from it.
                                            >
                                            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                            > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                            > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                            > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                            > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                            > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                            > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                            > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                            > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                            > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                            > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                            > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                            > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                            > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                            > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                            > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                            > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                            > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                            > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                            > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                            > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                            > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                            > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                            > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                            > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                            > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                            > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                            > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                            >
                                            > Russ wrote:
                                            > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                            > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                            > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                            > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                            >
                                            > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                            > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                            > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                            > things.
                                            >
                                            > Russ
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > prometheus wrote:
                                            > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                            > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                            > that Klemp has enough of
                                            > a problem that he used it
                                            > in the ASK The MASTER
                                            > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                            > And, it was the only question!
                                            > They had, supposedly, an
                                            > H.I. write-in and point out
                                            > the problem. No name given.
                                            >
                                            > I remember when I had
                                            > to deal with some older
                                            > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                            > coordinator and director
                                            > positions and it was
                                            > impossible to get this
                                            > one to follow the Guidelines
                                            > on EK Worship Services
                                            > (EWS). Many long-time
                                            > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                            > Guidelines and my
                                            > RESA turned a blind-
                                            > eye to it all. We had
                                            > so many former RESAs
                                            > in volunteer positions
                                            > that it was impossible
                                            > to get them on the
                                            > same page and to follow
                                            > procedures. I think
                                            > that some were just
                                            > burned out and tired
                                            > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                            > didn't want to leave.
                                            > Maybe they had too
                                            > many friendships to
                                            > lose. Plus, let's face
                                            > it. A lot of these people
                                            > are losers in the real
                                            > world but are big shots
                                            > in Eckankar. Those
                                            > Higher Initiations are
                                            > a big deal to the ego!
                                            >
                                            > Prometheus
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                            > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                            > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                            > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                            > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                            > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                            >
                                            > Non ;)
                                            >
                                            > prometheus wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Hello All,
                                            > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                            > > Letter I've read that
                                            > > Klemp still needs to
                                            > > update his Guidelines
                                            > > for the H.I.s in the
                                            > > field and chastise
                                            > > those who are slow
                                            > > to get with the program.
                                            > >
                                            > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                            > > want the freedom
                                            > > of Soul to be more
                                            > > individualistic,
                                            > > spontaneous, and
                                            > > creative by thinking
                                            > > they (Soul) can operate
                                            > > outside-of-the-box,
                                            > > thus, being channels
                                            > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                            > > has previously stated
                                            > > that he's imperfect,
                                            > > but that's not the case
                                            > > with the ECK, correct?
                                            > >
                                            > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                            > > their current (Present)
                                            > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                            > > followed versus that
                                            > > of outer set-in-stone
                                            > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                            > > in the Past and approved
                                            > > by a committee of imperfect
                                            > > people on a plane ruled
                                            > > by the KAL?
                                            > >
                                            > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                            > > that freedom of expression
                                            > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                            > > version of ECKankar.
                                            > > It's a hierarchy where
                                            > > everything is spelled
                                            > > out and controlled
                                            > > by him and his secret
                                            > > RESA police, plus, all
                                            > > field work must be
                                            > > approved via the
                                            > > current Guidelines.
                                            > >
                                            > > Many inexperienced
                                            > > EKists like the idea of
                                            > > being told how to do
                                            > > this or that and what
                                            > > approved books to use
                                            > > and what to say and
                                            > > other details to make
                                            > > the promotion of
                                            > > Eckankar easier.
                                            > >
                                            > > But the real point the
                                            > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                            > > is to have EK PR more
                                            > > consistent and cookie
                                            > > cutter looking/sounding
                                            > > for the public.
                                            > >
                                            > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                            > > are like following a
                                            > > recipe set-in-stone
                                            > > that disregards individual
                                            > > or regional tastes and
                                            > > disallows any additions
                                            > > or omissions of other
                                            > > ingredients, methods,
                                            > > and/or spices.
                                            > >
                                            > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                            > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                            > > change. He says they "rock
                                            > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                            > > that "it's all about fear."
                                            > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                            > > and "reinforce in each other
                                            > > a group's opposition to
                                            > > anything new." Strange
                                            > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                            > > subject to fear since he's
                                            > > supposed to protect them!
                                            > > This is how the KAL works.
                                            > > Klemp is his agent.
                                            > >
                                            > > However, the real 'change'
                                            > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                            > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                            > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                            > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                            > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                            > > being bound to dogma.
                                            > > HK side-steps delivering
                                            > > on his promises of protection
                                            > > and never has anything
                                            > > profound to share. And,
                                            > > where are those Higher
                                            > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                            > > yardsticks in measuring
                                            > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                            > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                            > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                            > > stingy and self-serving.
                                            > >
                                            > > Harold goes on to say that
                                            > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                            > > on the path to God instead
                                            > > of being stepping stones."
                                            > > Apparently, being creative
                                            > > and spontaneous and
                                            > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                            > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                            > > permitted if it conflicts
                                            > > with the LEM's outer,
                                            > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                            > >
                                            > > The LEM states that, "We
                                            > > are here to learn." However,
                                            > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                            > > from others since he never
                                            > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                            > > and doesn't partake in
                                            > > two-way dialogues with
                                            > > those under his authority.
                                            > >
                                            > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                            > > and unloving as he continues
                                            > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                            > > believe that if they sit still
                                            > > and breathe only enough to
                                            > > sustain life that they may
                                            > > well dodge the lightning
                                            > > strikes of irksome change."
                                            > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                            > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                            > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                            > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                            > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                            > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                            > > that could have be averted
                                            > > if they had gotten proper
                                            > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                            > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                            > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                            > > are meaningless... unless
                                            > > you've given this Black
                                            > > Magician power over you!
                                            > >
                                            > > But, it seems that HK
                                            > > has something else stuck
                                            > > in his craw. It seems to
                                            > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                            > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                            > > still and Contemplating
                                            > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                            > > life. But why shouldn't
                                            > > they take it easy after
                                            > > 40 years of doing PR
                                            > > work for Eckankar!
                                            > >
                                            > > So, what does Klemp
                                            > > the All compassionate,
                                            > > loving, positive, and
                                            > > empathetic icon of EK
                                            > > conclude?
                                            > >
                                            > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                            > > refuses to adhere to
                                            > > the ECK Guidelines
                                            > > needs to be addressed
                                            > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                            > > I wonder what that
                                            > > really means? Well,
                                            > > unless you're already
                                            > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                            > > next initiation good-bye
                                            > > for like 10-20 years!
                                            > >
                                            > > Klemp continues to say,
                                            > > "These are big stakes!
                                            > > Continued refusal means
                                            > > it's time for a replacement
                                            > > to step in. A change is
                                            > > due. Change. isn't it
                                            > > funny how we have come
                                            > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                            > > really funny. Klemp
                                            > > abuses the concept
                                            > > of "change" and makes
                                            > > it into a misnomer.
                                            > >
                                            > > What "changes" are there
                                            > > in Eckankar? The same
                                            > > old things are merely
                                            > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                            > > off and made to seem
                                            > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                            > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                            > > a game of pretend by
                                            > > creating brightly colored
                                            > > straws to grab at and
                                            > > cling to when drowning.
                                            > >
                                            > > Too bad that EKists are
                                            > > so deluded and needy
                                            > > and aren't able to read
                                            > > between the lines and
                                            > > see the real truth behind
                                            > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                            > >
                                            > > Prometheus
                                            >



                                          • Russ Rodnick
                                            Janice, you are so kind , thank you. Russ ________________________________ From: Janice Pfeiffer To:
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
                                              Janice,
                                              you are so kind , thank you.

                                              Russ


                                              From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:35 AM
                                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                                               
                                              Hi Russ,
                                               
                                              I am sorry if my talk about initiations disturbed you in any way.  It is a disturbing thing to come to grips with since you are told right from the start that those sacred initiations come from the mahanta. 
                                               
                                              I hope all goes well with you as you take the final stages of leaving eckankar.  I hope you will find comfort in knowing that you can stand on your own and any growth you had while in, you still have.  All along you were doing it for yourself, and you still can.
                                               
                                              I know you have the strength and courage to do anything you feel you have to do.  I hope you know that this site is a great place to get support should you needed. 
                                               
                                              Please know I will be thinking of you in the coming weeks and I will be sending warm thoughts your way.
                                               
                                              Keep your chin up and please know you are a very good person person.
                                               
                                              Janice

                                              --- On Sat, 12/15/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                                              From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                              To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 3:35 PM

                                               
                                              Janice,

                                              I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member. 

                                              I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'. 

                                              That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                                              On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                                              I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know. 

                                              Later,
                                              Russ


                                              From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:37 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                                               
                                              Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                                               
                                              Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                                               
                                              That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                                               
                                              In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                                               
                                               I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                                               
                                              The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                                               
                                              It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                                               
                                              When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                                               
                                              Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                                               
                                              I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                                              --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                                               
                                              Hello Janice,
                                              Thanks for the interesting
                                              reply and the sharing of
                                              insights and experiences.
                                              I really really enjoyed it
                                              all.

                                              The reason why someone
                                              knew you received your
                                              pink slip is because the
                                              RESA gets an initiation
                                              eligibility list where he/
                                              she will mark yea/nay
                                              for an initiation. When
                                              the yea is checked the
                                              ESC (membership services)
                                              will more than likely issue
                                              the pink slip for the initiation.
                                              Or, the file has been red
                                              flagged for some reason.
                                              Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                              a temporary hold on higher
                                              initiations. Maybe it's due
                                              to pending requirements
                                              for training/retraining.
                                              The ESC will notify the
                                              RESA when the pink slip
                                              is sent.

                                              Most Eckists don't know
                                              how the initiation process
                                              works.

                                              The RESA has a membership
                                              list generated by the ESC
                                              for all those EKists in their
                                              region and it will show
                                              initiation level, one's status
                                              and date of membership
                                              among other info. If a
                                              new person sends in a
                                              membership form to the
                                              ESC from anywhere in
                                              the RESA's region the RESA
                                              will be notified of who
                                              they are and their mailing
                                              address.

                                              I was glad Ford Johnson
                                              wrote his book and that
                                              I was told about it by an
                                              Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                              The Irony is that he was
                                              doing Public Information
                                              and was quite the gossip.

                                              I always was the skeptic
                                              and had trouble with a lot
                                              of what I saw and experienced
                                              around H.I.s.

                                              When I was a lower initiate
                                              I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                              spiritual nor anywhere close
                                              to being enlightened. There
                                              were too many contradictions,
                                              restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                              Once you're an EK member
                                              the next step is to get you
                                              to become a volunteer on
                                              HK's sales team.

                                              I always wondered how
                                              was there an "inner" connection
                                              to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                              were still smoking and
                                              drinking alcohol, but
                                              getting promoted with
                                              more initiations? I knew
                                              of two 5ths who smoked
                                              and drank and got pink
                                              slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                              that Klemp knows nothing
                                              unless informed via phone
                                              or snailmail... email now!

                                              Yes, Janice, we were the
                                              ones awakened to the Truth
                                              while all of those "Higher"
                                              (pretend) Initiates are still
                                              sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                              become very skilled at
                                              regurgitating the PR and
                                              at facilitating and public
                                              speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                              no idea of what it's like
                                              to be Free thinkers and
                                              free of religion and of the
                                              EK Hierarchy. They think
                                              that their "spiritual experiences"
                                              are unique when these
                                              are common and similar
                                              experiences that all religious
                                              seekers have had... even
                                              Christians!

                                              Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                              in order to fill a void and
                                              to learn some important
                                              lessons about ourselves
                                              and about religion in general.

                                              IMO, Those who left
                                              Eckankar but still have
                                              a need for religion, haven't
                                              really learned that they
                                              will never find answers
                                              via a group consciousness
                                              or via a guru/master.
                                              True, it is nice to know
                                              people of like mind and
                                              to share things, but this
                                              can be a bad thing as well
                                              if we become too attached
                                              or lazy and want to play
                                              follow the leader again.

                                              It all comes down to one's
                                              private and personal experiences
                                              and inner revelations with
                                              oneSelf and with whatever
                                              catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                              Prometheus

                                              Janice wrote:
                                              I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                              Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                              I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                              Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                              How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                              That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                              The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                              Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                              I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                              I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                              I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                              Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                              Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                              Blessings to all of you.


                                              prometheus wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                              > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                              > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                              > and "explorer" positions at
                                              > the EK Centers would trip
                                              > over their egos and go on
                                              > power trips. Many seemed
                                              > cliquish and would huddle
                                              > together. Then, again, some
                                              > weren't all that friendly or
                                              > were very introverted and
                                              > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                              > including the clerics, to
                                              > greet and talk to all of the
                                              > new or seldom seen faces
                                              > that showed up. Many
                                              > only saw other Eckists at
                                              > the monthly EWS and this
                                              > was a time to catch up on
                                              > things. This is why I'd
                                              > suggest going to lunch
                                              > after the EWS and socializing.
                                              >
                                              > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                              > True? I think so!
                                              >
                                              > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                              > and requirements for Eckists
                                              > means that they must take
                                              > on extroverted roles in
                                              > order to become H.I.s.
                                              > Eckists must force themselves,
                                              > against their innate natures,
                                              > to become extroverted and
                                              > egocentric. These leadership
                                              > requirements create conflict,
                                              > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                              > Thus, this imbalance that
                                              > Klemp has created and
                                              > reenforces aids him in
                                              > the brainwashing of his
                                              > flock to have programmed
                                              > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                              > mystical experiences. But,
                                              > this has its toll and is why
                                              > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                              > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                              > and his anal control tactics.
                                              >
                                              > Sometimes, at special
                                              > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                              > and mini retreats the
                                              > long-time H.I.s, former
                                              > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                              > members would gather
                                              > around and gossip about
                                              > those absent or present.
                                              > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                              > gossip but rationalized
                                              > as more of an evaluative/
                                              > investigative discussion
                                              > for possible initiation
                                              > recommendation or for
                                              > a Satsang position appointment.
                                              > They wanted to know,
                                              > from sources who knew
                                              > them, if there were problems
                                              > with these EKists and, if
                                              > so, what the specific details
                                              > were. It was all ego driven
                                              > and subjective because we
                                              > were all volunteers and
                                              > had family and personal
                                              > lives too. But, it did weed
                                              > out those who weren't as
                                              > well indoctrinated....
                                              > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                              > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                              > much always a waste of
                                              > time so, in the long run,
                                              > enthusiasm was probably
                                              > more important than acting
                                              > the part. The Satsang positions
                                              > and duties kept people
                                              > busy, gave them a purpose
                                              > and made them feel good,
                                              > although, very stressed out.
                                              >
                                              > The Initiation game has made
                                              > Eckists struggle with denying
                                              > how much more they want of
                                              > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                              >
                                              > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                              > that an ESA told you that the
                                              > people at the EK Center were
                                              > crazy. That just isn't done
                                              > and is part of HK's agenda
                                              > of Silence and retraining.
                                              >
                                              > There's that old Buddha quote
                                              > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                              > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                              > and this is supposed to keep
                                              > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                              > sometimes get reported:
                                              > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                              > this I ask myself before I
                                              > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                              > following this criteria is very
                                              > subjective and could or would
                                              > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                              > conservations.
                                              >
                                              > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                              > may be "true" for you and
                                              > for most people but not
                                              > not for all people. And, is
                                              > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                              > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                              > this within earshot of people
                                              > who aren't feeling well or
                                              > who can't enjoy the day?
                                              > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                              > to keep the critics of his
                                              > policies and of his H.I.s
                                              > to a minimum.
                                              >
                                              > Prometheus
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                              > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                              > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                              > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                              > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                              > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                              > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                              > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                              > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                              > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                              >
                                              > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                              > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                              >
                                              > Good to be away from it.
                                              >
                                              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                              > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                              > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                              > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                              > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                              > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                              > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                              > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                              > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                              > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                              > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                              > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                              > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                              > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                              > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                              > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                              > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                              > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                              > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                              > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                              > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                              > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                              > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                              > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                              > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                              > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                              > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                              > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                              >
                                              > Russ wrote:
                                              > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                              > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                              > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                              > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                              >
                                              > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                              > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                              > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                              > things.
                                              >
                                              > Russ
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > prometheus wrote:
                                              > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                              > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                              > that Klemp has enough of
                                              > a problem that he used it
                                              > in the ASK The MASTER
                                              > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                              > And, it was the only question!
                                              > They had, supposedly, an
                                              > H.I. write-in and point out
                                              > the problem. No name given.
                                              >
                                              > I remember when I had
                                              > to deal with some older
                                              > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                              > coordinator and director
                                              > positions and it was
                                              > impossible to get this
                                              > one to follow the Guidelines
                                              > on EK Worship Services
                                              > (EWS). Many long-time
                                              > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                              > Guidelines and my
                                              > RESA turned a blind-
                                              > eye to it all. We had
                                              > so many former RESAs
                                              > in volunteer positions
                                              > that it was impossible
                                              > to get them on the
                                              > same page and to follow
                                              > procedures. I think
                                              > that some were just
                                              > burned out and tired
                                              > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                              > didn't want to leave.
                                              > Maybe they had too
                                              > many friendships to
                                              > lose. Plus, let's face
                                              > it. A lot of these people
                                              > are losers in the real
                                              > world but are big shots
                                              > in Eckankar. Those
                                              > Higher Initiations are
                                              > a big deal to the ego!
                                              >
                                              > Prometheus
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                              > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                              > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                              > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                              > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                              > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                              >
                                              > Non ;)
                                              >
                                              > prometheus wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Hello All,
                                              > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                              > > Letter I've read that
                                              > > Klemp still needs to
                                              > > update his Guidelines
                                              > > for the H.I.s in the
                                              > > field and chastise
                                              > > those who are slow
                                              > > to get with the program.
                                              > >
                                              > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                              > > want the freedom
                                              > > of Soul to be more
                                              > > individualistic,
                                              > > spontaneous, and
                                              > > creative by thinking
                                              > > they (Soul) can operate
                                              > > outside-of-the-box,
                                              > > thus, being channels
                                              > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                              > > has previously stated
                                              > > that he's imperfect,
                                              > > but that's not the case
                                              > > with the ECK, correct?
                                              > >
                                              > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                              > > their current (Present)
                                              > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                              > > followed versus that
                                              > > of outer set-in-stone
                                              > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                              > > in the Past and approved
                                              > > by a committee of imperfect
                                              > > people on a plane ruled
                                              > > by the KAL?
                                              > >
                                              > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                              > > that freedom of expression
                                              > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                              > > version of ECKankar.
                                              > > It's a hierarchy where
                                              > > everything is spelled
                                              > > out and controlled
                                              > > by him and his secret
                                              > > RESA police, plus, all
                                              > > field work must be
                                              > > approved via the
                                              > > current Guidelines.
                                              > >
                                              > > Many inexperienced
                                              > > EKists like the idea of
                                              > > being told how to do
                                              > > this or that and what
                                              > > approved books to use
                                              > > and what to say and
                                              > > other details to make
                                              > > the promotion of
                                              > > Eckankar easier.
                                              > >
                                              > > But the real point the
                                              > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                              > > is to have EK PR more
                                              > > consistent and cookie
                                              > > cutter looking/sounding
                                              > > for the public.
                                              > >
                                              > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                              > > are like following a
                                              > > recipe set-in-stone
                                              > > that disregards individual
                                              > > or regional tastes and
                                              > > disallows any additions
                                              > > or omissions of other
                                              > > ingredients, methods,
                                              > > and/or spices.
                                              > >
                                              > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                              > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                              > > change. He says they "rock
                                              > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                              > > that "it's all about fear."
                                              > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                              > > and "reinforce in each other
                                              > > a group's opposition to
                                              > > anything new." Strange
                                              > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                              > > subject to fear since he's
                                              > > supposed to protect them!
                                              > > This is how the KAL works.
                                              > > Klemp is his agent.
                                              > >
                                              > > However, the real 'change'
                                              > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                              > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                              > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                              > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                              > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                              > > being bound to dogma.
                                              > > HK side-steps delivering
                                              > > on his promises of protection
                                              > > and never has anything
                                              > > profound to share. And,
                                              > > where are those Higher
                                              > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                              > > yardsticks in measuring
                                              > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                              > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                              > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                              > > stingy and self-serving.
                                              > >
                                              > > Harold goes on to say that
                                              > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                              > > on the path to God instead
                                              > > of being stepping stones."
                                              > > Apparently, being creative
                                              > > and spontaneous and
                                              > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                              > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                              > > permitted if it conflicts
                                              > > with the LEM's outer,
                                              > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                              > >
                                              > > The LEM states that, "We
                                              > > are here to learn." However,
                                              > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                              > > from others since he never
                                              > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                              > > and doesn't partake in
                                              > > two-way dialogues with
                                              > > those under his authority.
                                              > >
                                              > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                              > > and unloving as he continues
                                              > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                              > > believe that if they sit still
                                              > > and breathe only enough to
                                              > > sustain life that they may
                                              > > well dodge the lightning
                                              > > strikes of irksome change."
                                              > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                              > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                              > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                              > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                              > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                              > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                              > > that could have be averted
                                              > > if they had gotten proper
                                              > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                              > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                              > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                              > > are meaningless... unless
                                              > > you've given this Black
                                              > > Magician power over you!
                                              > >
                                              > > But, it seems that HK
                                              > > has something else stuck
                                              > > in his craw. It seems to
                                              > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                              > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                              > > still and Contemplating
                                              > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                              > > life. But why shouldn't
                                              > > they take it easy after
                                              > > 40 years of doing PR
                                              > > work for Eckankar!
                                              > >
                                              > > So, what does Klemp
                                              > > the All compassionate,
                                              > > loving, positive, and
                                              > > empathetic icon of EK
                                              > > conclude?
                                              > >
                                              > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                              > > refuses to adhere to
                                              > > the ECK Guidelines
                                              > > needs to be addressed
                                              > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                              > > I wonder what that
                                              > > really means? Well,
                                              > > unless you're already
                                              > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                              > > next initiation good-bye
                                              > > for like 10-20 years!
                                              > >
                                              > > Klemp continues to say,
                                              > > "These are big stakes!
                                              > > Continued refusal means
                                              > > it's time for a replacement
                                              > > to step in. A change is
                                              > > due. Change. isn't it
                                              > > funny how we have come
                                              > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                              > > really funny. Klemp
                                              > > abuses the concept
                                              > > of "change" and makes
                                              > > it into a misnomer.
                                              > >
                                              > > What "changes" are there
                                              > > in Eckankar? The same
                                              > > old things are merely
                                              > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                              > > off and made to seem
                                              > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                              > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                              > > a game of pretend by
                                              > > creating brightly colored
                                              > > straws to grab at and
                                              > > cling to when drowning.
                                              > >
                                              > > Too bad that EKists are
                                              > > so deluded and needy
                                              > > and aren't able to read
                                              > > between the lines and
                                              > > see the real truth behind
                                              > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                              > >
                                              > > Prometheus
                                              >





                                            • prometheus_973
                                              Hello Janice, Non and All, Thank you for the kind words and understanding. It got me to thinking about the basis for the whole EK initiation eligibility
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
                                                Hello Janice, Non and All,
                                                Thank you for the kind
                                                words and understanding.
                                                It got me to thinking about
                                                the basis for the whole EK
                                                initiation eligibility screening.

                                                I think that we've all heard
                                                about the importance of
                                                keeping the EK Teachings
                                                "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
                                                must be current on procedures,
                                                and guidelines which will,
                                                also, ensure that they are
                                                able to regurgitate the
                                                approved propaganda.
                                                The initiation eligibility
                                                screenings are to sort out
                                                those who still need more
                                                training or are ready to
                                                advance to the next stage
                                                and take on more responsibilities
                                                with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
                                                Sales Teams.

                                                Plus, the initiation screenings
                                                ensure that Klemp will have
                                                people who are willing to
                                                participate in the promotion
                                                of the organization. It has
                                                nothing to do with one's
                                                spiritual growth. But, sincerity
                                                and believability goes a
                                                long way in convincing others.
                                                However, one can't be too
                                                deluded. One needs to be
                                                believable and this is why
                                                the faithful are the ones most
                                                shocked when they can finally
                                                open their minds to hear
                                                the truth.

                                                Maybe most of the heavy
                                                handed methods, lack of
                                                empathy and compassion,
                                                are rationalizations where
                                                the RESAs are thinking
                                                they are toughening up
                                                and strengthening Soul
                                                while, also, protecting
                                                the Mahanta, supporting
                                                his "Mission," and keeping
                                                the EK Teachings "pure"
                                                and unchangeable over
                                                time.

                                                When taking a second look;
                                                HK has his RESAs confused.
                                                How does Klemp continue
                                                to promote "change" and
                                                is always updating things
                                                while keeping the "original"
                                                EK Teachings by Twitchell
                                                "pure?" The truth is that,
                                                as LEM, Klemp has the
                                                authority to Change and
                                                revisit all EK Dogma and
                                                "update" and revise it
                                                with his own spin.

                                                Therefore, only the current
                                                EK teachings (Guidelines
                                                included) are "pure" according
                                                to what Klemp is suggesting.
                                                Except, the reason why HK
                                                has chosen not to reprint
                                                most of Twitchell's books
                                                is because they are highly
                                                plagiarized versus being
                                                "current" with today's higher
                                                consciousness.

                                                The foundation of Eckankar
                                                is built upon a con and a
                                                hoax and is not even copied
                                                from the highest "truths"
                                                of other religions since these
                                                religions are flawed as well.
                                                Twitchell's books are more
                                                evidence to prove the case
                                                and to show that he was
                                                simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
                                                and a narcissistic wannabe.

                                                Prometheus


                                                Prometheus

                                                Janice wrote:
                                                I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things. I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations. I did admire you for it also. I apologize for not telling you then.

                                                At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time. There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others.

                                                Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join. I did go in of my own free will like everybody else. I opened myself up to it, like everybody else. So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts. We chose to join eckankar.

                                                Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it. You were one of those.

                                                Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people? Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others.

                                                I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get. Do you think those who passed on, do? It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.

                                                By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart.

                                                Be at peace

                                                Janice


                                                Non ekchains:

                                                Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                                Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                                http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                                Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                                In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                                I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                                Blessings

                                                Non ;)


                                                prometheus wrote:

                                                Hello Janice,
                                                Most H.I.s have no idea
                                                how the EK Initiation
                                                process works. It's sad
                                                because there are some
                                                really nice and gentile
                                                chelas who have been
                                                passed over on the 5th.
                                                Some died as 4ths when
                                                they should have had
                                                some happiness, peace
                                                of mind, and contentment
                                                by receiving that 5th.
                                                I've know several eckists
                                                where this has happened.
                                                It was no big deal to give
                                                them their 5th initiation,
                                                but some RESAs are mean-
                                                spirited, lack empathy,
                                                and are petty. They've
                                                gotten caught up in HK's
                                                game. All Eckists should
                                                get the 5th after no more
                                                than 20 years, especially,
                                                when they participate
                                                and are kept current on
                                                their membership. However,
                                                that's not the way the
                                                power trip is played by
                                                some RESAs.

                                                I hate to admit this but
                                                I helped the RESA when
                                                asked about people. I
                                                was quizzed about those
                                                up for, usually, the 5th
                                                and 6th initiation. I was
                                                asked about what the EKist
                                                said, how they acted and
                                                conducted themselves
                                                and any unusual things
                                                that I noticed about
                                                their behavior or performance.
                                                And then I was asked for
                                                my opinion. Unfortunately
                                                my replies, I know, had
                                                some initiations delayed
                                                for these people and I
                                                regret that I got caught
                                                up in this petty mind game.
                                                Some of these people are
                                                still H.I.s and have no idea
                                                why they had to wait so
                                                long for their 5th or 6th.
                                                Many probably think that
                                                the Mahanta was testing
                                                them! LOL! On the other
                                                hand maybe some of them,
                                                by now, have been asked
                                                to evaluate people too.
                                                I wonder if they put two
                                                and two together and
                                                figured it out.

                                                Why, though, should
                                                Klemp have a system
                                                for initiations that judges
                                                and punishes Eckists
                                                based upon our evaluations?
                                                Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                                of the Mahanta?

                                                Besides, a 5th is no big
                                                deal, and it's not like one
                                                becomes a cleric automatically
                                                with a 5th. Really, being
                                                an 5th is no more being
                                                an official representative
                                                of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                                Yes, most Eckists have
                                                no idea that a computer
                                                generated eligibility list
                                                is sent to the RESA by the
                                                ESC and that phone calls
                                                are made asking questions
                                                where subjective answers
                                                are given and that the RESA
                                                uses these to either approve
                                                and give a recommendation
                                                for initiation or doesn't.
                                                However, I will say that
                                                any "No" has to have an
                                                valid reason. The ESC
                                                usually follows the RESAs'
                                                recommendations.

                                                BTW- Janice, I think that
                                                your RESA approved of
                                                your initiation because
                                                he felt guilty for having
                                                yelled at you, plus, you
                                                could have reported him
                                                to the ESC. Maybe the
                                                initiation approval was
                                                meant to appease you?

                                                Prometheus

                                                Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                                Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                                teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                                person?

                                                That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                                was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                                on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                                crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                                that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                                was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                                totally useless.

                                                In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                                about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                                I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                                of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                                didn't use his name at all.

                                                The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                                seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                                had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                                then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                                asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                                times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                                along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                                his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                                point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                                time and hung up.

                                                It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                                up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                                called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                                appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                                paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                                performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                                that was part of it.

                                                When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                                thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                                there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                                was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                                the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                                insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                                was enough.

                                                Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                                true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                                I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                                I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                                opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                                like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                                prometheus wrote:

                                                Hello Janice,
                                                Thanks for the interesting
                                                reply and the sharing of
                                                insights and experiences.
                                                I really really enjoyed it
                                                all.

                                                The reason why someone
                                                knew you received your
                                                pink slip is because the
                                                RESA gets an initiation
                                                eligibility list where he/
                                                she will mark yea/nay
                                                for an initiation. When
                                                the yea is checked the
                                                ESC (membership services)
                                                will more than likely issue
                                                the pink slip for the initiation.
                                                Or, the file has been red
                                                flagged for some reason.
                                                Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                                a temporary hold on higher
                                                initiations. Maybe it's due
                                                to pending requirements
                                                for training/retraining.
                                                The ESC will notify the
                                                RESA when the pink slip
                                                is sent.

                                                Most Eckists don't know
                                                how the initiation process
                                                works.

                                                The RESA has a membership
                                                list generated by the ESC
                                                for all those EKists in their
                                                region and it will show
                                                initiation level, one's status
                                                and date of membership
                                                among other info. If a
                                                new person sends in a
                                                membership form to the
                                                ESC from anywhere in
                                                the RESA's region the RESA
                                                will be notified of who
                                                they are and their mailing
                                                address.

                                                I was glad Ford Johnson
                                                wrote his book and that
                                                I was told about it by an
                                                Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                                The Irony is that he was
                                                doing Public Information
                                                and was quite the gossip.

                                                I always was the skeptic
                                                and had trouble with a lot
                                                of what I saw and experienced
                                                around H.I.s.

                                                When I was a lower initiate
                                                I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                                spiritual nor anywhere close
                                                to being enlightened. There
                                                were too many contradictions,
                                                restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                                Once you're an EK member
                                                the next step is to get you
                                                to become a volunteer on
                                                HK's sales team.

                                                I always wondered how
                                                was there an "inner" connection
                                                to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                                were still smoking and
                                                drinking alcohol, but
                                                getting promoted with
                                                more initiations? I knew
                                                of two 5ths who smoked
                                                and drank and got pink
                                                slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                                that Klemp knows nothing
                                                unless informed via phone
                                                or snailmail... email now!

                                                Yes, Janice, we were the
                                                ones awakened to the Truth
                                                while all of those "Higher"
                                                (pretend) Initiates are still
                                                sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                                become very skilled at
                                                regurgitating the PR and
                                                at facilitating and public
                                                speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                                no idea of what it's like
                                                to be Free thinkers and
                                                free of religion and of the
                                                EK Hierarchy. They think
                                                that their "spiritual experiences"
                                                are unique when these
                                                are common and similar
                                                experiences that all religious
                                                seekers have had... even
                                                Christians!

                                                Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                                in order to fill a void and
                                                to learn some important
                                                lessons about ourselves
                                                and about religion in general.

                                                IMO, Those who left
                                                Eckankar but still have
                                                a need for religion, haven't
                                                really learned that they
                                                will never find answers
                                                via a group consciousness
                                                or via a guru/master.
                                                True, it is nice to know
                                                people of like mind and
                                                to share things, but this
                                                can be a bad thing as well
                                                if we become too attached
                                                or lazy and want to play
                                                follow the leader again.

                                                It all comes down to one's
                                                private and personal experiences
                                                and inner revelations with
                                                oneSelf and with whatever
                                                catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                                Prometheus

                                                Janice wrote:
                                                I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                                it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                                people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                                The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                                new people.

                                                Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                                little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                                to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                                you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                                you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                                to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                                initiations.

                                                I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                                contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                                questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                                he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                                not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                                Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                                me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                                about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                                even.

                                                How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                                supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                                about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                                getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                                seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                                games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                                opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                                Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                                tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                                become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                                That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                                for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                                eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                                instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                                the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                                Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                                lucky that I got out when I did.

                                                The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                                lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                                they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                                in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                                good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                                that point the lies.

                                                Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                                like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                                not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                                define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                                individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                                responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                                after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                                I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                                individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                                the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                                in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                                this.

                                                I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                                maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                                spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                                all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                                the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                                own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                                quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                                I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                                mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                                there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                                Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                                they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                                spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                                slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                                getting out could lead to better things.

                                                Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                                reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                                your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                                to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                                serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                                the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                                are.

                                                Blessings to all of you.
                                              • Janice Pfeiffer
                                                Prometheus,   The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.   As a young person, I blamed my parents
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Dec 17, 2012
                                                  Prometheus,
                                                   
                                                  The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.
                                                   
                                                  As a young person, I blamed my parents for all I didn't get growing up.  I think most of us do get critical of the job our parents did at some point.  I must say my upbringing wasn't very good over all. 
                                                   
                                                  Well, the way I worked it out for myself was I decided they gave me the best they knew how to give at the time.  There was love there and they did give me as much as they were capable of.  They gave what they could.  They were not capable of more.
                                                   
                                                  I like most people have done things that I now consider mistakes, even some really bad mistakes.  But just like my parents I acted under the best info I had at the time. 
                                                   
                                                  It is not an excuse and it is not a victim type attitude.  If you don't know better, you can't do better.
                                                   
                                                  If I knew when I was born, all I know now, I could have avoided most of the mistakes I ever made.
                                                   
                                                  We all know that's not possible.  
                                                   
                                                  I know some of us come in as more advanced souls but we don't get here and immediately know what we are; not with out some experience in life.  It's the bumps and scrapes that helps us define who we are. 
                                                   
                                                  You did no permanent damage to anyone in eckankar because nothing we experience has a forever affect.  If they held on to resentment about an initiation, that is theirs to work out.
                                                   
                                                  You weren't even told the real lies that the org perpetrates to keep people in.
                                                   
                                                  You were forced to play a guessing game about the whole thing with the half truths you got.
                                                   
                                                  Besides you were indoctrinated into the world of how to be a good eckist, good HI and all  positions you may have held.
                                                   
                                                  You believed in what you were doing because you believed in the the teachings and the org.
                                                   
                                                  How can you be wrong if you don't know you are wrong?
                                                   
                                                  You got to a point where you decided you were wrong.
                                                   
                                                  You changed course. 
                                                   
                                                  A not so strong person might have stayed in the circus knowing they were wrong but wouldn't change it.
                                                   
                                                  In my eyes that makes you blameless for anything that happened in the org.
                                                   
                                                  I do have a question.  You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations.  What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development?  I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons.  It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org.  Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone.  Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar?  Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money.  Is that it?
                                                   
                                                  I read every eckankar book available at the time I was in.  I even had access to some that were out of print which were loaned to me by some one who was in during Paul's time.  I got to read Letters to Gail and Paul's books of fiction which I have forgotten the names of now.  If eckankar is now depending on that dry, uninspiring crap hk writes, eckankar is doomed.  There's no way, new people will get hooked on that stuff. 
                                                   
                                                  Thank you Prometheus
                                                   


                                                  --- On Sun, 12/16/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Date: Sunday, December 16, 2012, 6:44 PM

                                                   
                                                  Hello Janice, Non and All,
                                                  Thank you for the kind
                                                  words and understanding.
                                                  It got me to thinking about
                                                  the basis for the whole EK
                                                  initiation eligibility screening.

                                                  I think that we've all heard
                                                  about the importance of
                                                  keeping the EK Teachings
                                                  "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
                                                  must be current on procedures,
                                                  and guidelines which will,
                                                  also, ensure that they are
                                                  able to regurgitate the
                                                  approved propaganda.
                                                  The initiation eligibility
                                                  screenings are to sort out
                                                  those who still need more
                                                  training or are ready to
                                                  advance to the next stage
                                                  and take on more responsibilities
                                                  with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
                                                  Sales Teams.

                                                  Plus, the initiation screenings
                                                  ensure that Klemp will have
                                                  people who are willing to
                                                  participate in the promotion
                                                  of the organization. It has
                                                  nothing to do with one's
                                                  spiritual growth. But, sincerity
                                                  and believability goes a
                                                  long way in convincing others.
                                                  However, one can't be too
                                                  deluded. One needs to be
                                                  believable and this is why
                                                  the faithful are the ones most
                                                  shocked when they can finally
                                                  open their minds to hear
                                                  the truth.

                                                  Maybe most of the heavy
                                                  handed methods, lack of
                                                  empathy and compassion,
                                                  are rationalizations where
                                                  the RESAs are thinking
                                                  they are toughening up
                                                  and strengthening Soul
                                                  while, also, protecting
                                                  the Mahanta, supporting
                                                  his "Mission," and keeping
                                                  the EK Teachings "pure"
                                                  and unchangeable over
                                                  time.

                                                  When taking a second look;
                                                  HK has his RESAs confused.
                                                  How does Klemp continue
                                                  to promote "change" and
                                                  is always updating things
                                                  while keeping the "original"
                                                  EK Teachings by Twitchell
                                                  "pure?" The truth is that,
                                                  as LEM, Klemp has the
                                                  authority to Change and
                                                  revisit all EK Dogma and
                                                  "update" and revise it
                                                  with his own spin.

                                                  Therefore, only the current
                                                  EK teachings (Guidelines
                                                  included) are "pure" according
                                                  to what Klemp is suggesting.
                                                  Except, the reason why HK
                                                  has chosen not to reprint
                                                  most of Twitchell's books
                                                  is because they are highly
                                                  plagiarized versus being
                                                  "current" with today's higher
                                                  consciousness.

                                                  The foundation of Eckankar
                                                  is built upon a con and a
                                                  hoax and is not even copied
                                                  from the highest "truths"
                                                  of other religions since these
                                                  religions are flawed as well.
                                                  Twitchell's books are more
                                                  evidence to prove the case
                                                  and to show that he was
                                                  simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
                                                  and a narcissistic wannabe.

                                                  Prometheus

                                                  Prometheus

                                                  Janice wrote:
                                                  I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things. I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations. I did admire you for it also. I apologize for not telling you then.

                                                  At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time. There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others.

                                                  Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join. I did go in of my own free will like everybody else. I opened myself up to it, like everybody else. So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts. We chose to join eckankar.

                                                  Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it. You were one of those.

                                                  Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people? Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others.

                                                  I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get. Do you think those who passed on, do? It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.

                                                  By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart.

                                                  Be at peace

                                                  Janice


                                                  Non ekchains:

                                                  Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                                  Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                                  http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                                  Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                                  In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                                  I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                                  Blessings

                                                  Non ;)

                                                  prometheus wrote:

                                                  Hello Janice,
                                                  Most H.I.s have no idea
                                                  how the EK Initiation
                                                  process works. It's sad
                                                  because there are some
                                                  really nice and gentile
                                                  chelas who have been
                                                  passed over on the 5th.
                                                  Some died as 4ths when
                                                  they should have had
                                                  some happiness, peace
                                                  of mind, and contentment
                                                  by receiving that 5th.
                                                  I've know several eckists
                                                  where this has happened.
                                                  It was no big deal to give
                                                  them their 5th initiation,
                                                  but some RESAs are mean-
                                                  spirited, lack empathy,
                                                  and are petty. They've
                                                  gotten caught up in HK's
                                                  game. All Eckists should
                                                  get the 5th after no more
                                                  than 20 years, especially,
                                                  when they participate
                                                  and are kept current on
                                                  their membership. However,
                                                  that's not the way the
                                                  power trip is played by
                                                  some RESAs.

                                                  I hate to admit this but
                                                  I helped the RESA when
                                                  asked about people. I
                                                  was quizzed about those
                                                  up for, usually, the 5th
                                                  and 6th initiation. I was
                                                  asked about what the EKist
                                                  said, how they acted and
                                                  conducted themselves
                                                  and any unusual things
                                                  that I noticed about
                                                  their behavior or performance.
                                                  And then I was asked for
                                                  my opinion. Unfortunately
                                                  my replies, I know, had
                                                  some initiations delayed
                                                  for these people and I
                                                  regret that I got caught
                                                  up in this petty mind game.
                                                  Some of these people are
                                                  still H.I.s and have no idea
                                                  why they had to wait so
                                                  long for their 5th or 6th.
                                                  Many probably think that
                                                  the Mahanta was testing
                                                  them! LOL! On the other
                                                  hand maybe some of them,
                                                  by now, have been asked
                                                  to evaluate people too.
                                                  I wonder if they put two
                                                  and two together and
                                                  figured it out.

                                                  Why, though, should
                                                  Klemp have a system
                                                  for initiations that judges
                                                  and punishes Eckists
                                                  based upon our evaluations?
                                                  Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                                  of the Mahanta?

                                                  Besides, a 5th is no big
                                                  deal, and it's not like one
                                                  becomes a cleric automatically
                                                  with a 5th. Really, being
                                                  an 5th is no more being
                                                  an official representative
                                                  of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                                  Yes, most Eckists have
                                                  no idea that a computer
                                                  generated eligibility list
                                                  is sent to the RESA by the
                                                  ESC and that phone calls
                                                  are made asking questions
                                                  where subjective answers
                                                  are given and that the RESA
                                                  uses these to either approve
                                                  and give a recommendation
                                                  for initiation or doesn't.
                                                  However, I will say that
                                                  any "No" has to have an
                                                  valid reason. The ESC
                                                  usually follows the RESAs'
                                                  recommendations.

                                                  BTW- Janice, I think that
                                                  your RESA approved of
                                                  your initiation because
                                                  he felt guilty for having
                                                  yelled at you, plus, you
                                                  could have reported him
                                                  to the ESC. Maybe the
                                                  initiation approval was
                                                  meant to appease you?

                                                  Prometheus

                                                  Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                  Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                                  Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                                  teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                                  person?

                                                  That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                                  was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                                  on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                                  crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                                  that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                                  was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                                  totally useless.

                                                  In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                                  about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                                  I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                                  of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                                  didn't use his name at all.

                                                  The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                                  seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                                  had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                                  then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                                  asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                                  times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                                  along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                                  his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                                  point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                                  time and hung up.

                                                  It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                                  up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                                  called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                                  appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                                  paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                                  performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                                  that was part of it.

                                                  When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                                  thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                                  there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                                  was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                                  the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                                  insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                                  was enough.

                                                  Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                                  true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                                  I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                                  I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                                  opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                                  like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                                  prometheus wrote:

                                                  Hello Janice,
                                                  Thanks for the interesting
                                                  reply and the sharing of
                                                  insights and experiences.
                                                  I really really enjoyed it
                                                  all.

                                                  The reason why someone
                                                  knew you received your
                                                  pink slip is because the
                                                  RESA gets an initiation
                                                  eligibility list where he/
                                                  she will mark yea/nay
                                                  for an initiation. When
                                                  the yea is checked the
                                                  ESC (membership services)
                                                  will more than likely issue
                                                  the pink slip for the initiation.
                                                  Or, the file has been red
                                                  flagged for some reason.
                                                  Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                                  a temporary hold on higher
                                                  initiations. Maybe it's due
                                                  to pending requirements
                                                  for training/retraining.
                                                  The ESC will notify the
                                                  RESA when the pink slip
                                                  is sent.

                                                  Most Eckists don't know
                                                  how the initiation process
                                                  works.

                                                  The RESA has a membership
                                                  list generated by the ESC
                                                  for all those EKists in their
                                                  region and it will show
                                                  initiation level, one's status
                                                  and date of membership
                                                  among other info. If a
                                                  new person sends in a
                                                  membership form to the
                                                  ESC from anywhere in
                                                  the RESA's region the RESA
                                                  will be notified of who
                                                  they are and their mailing
                                                  address.

                                                  I was glad Ford Johnson
                                                  wrote his book and that
                                                  I was told about it by an
                                                  Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                                  The Irony is that he was
                                                  doing Public Information
                                                  and was quite the gossip.

                                                  I always was the skeptic
                                                  and had trouble with a lot
                                                  of what I saw and experienced
                                                  around H.I.s.

                                                  When I was a lower initiate
                                                  I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                                  spiritual nor anywhere close
                                                  to being enlightened. There
                                                  were too many contradictions,
                                                  restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                                  Once you're an EK member
                                                  the next step is to get you
                                                  to become a volunteer on
                                                  HK's sales team.

                                                  I always wondered how
                                                  was there an "inner" connection
                                                  to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                                  were still smoking and
                                                  drinking alcohol, but
                                                  getting promoted with
                                                  more initiations? I knew
                                                  of two 5ths who smoked
                                                  and drank and got pink
                                                  slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                                  that Klemp knows nothing
                                                  unless informed via phone
                                                  or snailmail... email now!

                                                  Yes, Janice, we were the
                                                  ones awakened to the Truth
                                                  while all of those "Higher"
                                                  (pretend) Initiates are still
                                                  sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                                  become very skilled at
                                                  regurgitating the PR and
                                                  at facilitating and public
                                                  speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                                  no idea of what it's like
                                                  to be Free thinkers and
                                                  free of religion and of the
                                                  EK Hierarchy. They think
                                                  that their "spiritual experiences"
                                                  are unique when these
                                                  are common and similar
                                                  experiences that all religious
                                                  seekers have had... even
                                                  Christians!

                                                  Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                                  in order to fill a void and
                                                  to learn some important
                                                  lessons about ourselves
                                                  and about religion in general.

                                                  IMO, Those who left
                                                  Eckankar but still have
                                                  a need for religion, haven't
                                                  really learned that they
                                                  will never find answers
                                                  via a group consciousness
                                                  or via a guru/master.
                                                  True, it is nice to know
                                                  people of like mind and
                                                  to share things, but this
                                                  can be a bad thing as well
                                                  if we become too attached
                                                  or lazy and want to play
                                                  follow the leader again.

                                                  It all comes down to one's
                                                  private and personal experiences
                                                  and inner revelations with
                                                  oneSelf and with whatever
                                                  catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                                  Prometheus

                                                  Janice wrote:
                                                  I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                                  it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                                  people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                                  The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                                  new people.

                                                  Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                                  little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                                  to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                                  you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                                  you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                                  to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                                  initiations.

                                                  I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                                  contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                                  questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                                  he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                                  not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                                  Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                                  me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                                  about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                                  even.

                                                  How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                                  supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                                  about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                                  getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                                  seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                                  games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                                  opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                                  Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                                  tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                                  become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                                  That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                                  for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                                  eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                                  instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                                  the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                                  Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                                  lucky that I got out when I did.

                                                  The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                                  lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                                  they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                                  in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                                  good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                                  that point the lies.

                                                  Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                                  like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                                  not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                                  define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                                  individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                                  responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                                  after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                                  I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                                  individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                                  the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                                  in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                                  this.

                                                  I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                                  maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                                  spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                                  all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                                  the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                                  own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                                  quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                                  I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                                  mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                                  there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                                  Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                                  they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                                  spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                                  slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                                  getting out could lead to better things.

                                                  Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                                  reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                                  your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                                  to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                                  serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                                  the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                                  are.

                                                  Blessings to all of you.

                                                • prometheus_973
                                                  Hello Janice, You wrote: I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Dec 17, 2012
                                                    Hello Janice,
                                                    You wrote: "I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations. What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development? I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons. It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org. Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone. Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar? Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money. Is that it?"

                                                    I guess that I see it all as
                                                    a puzzle that PT created,
                                                    DG played with, and that
                                                    Klemp altered, added to,
                                                    omitted and scrambled
                                                    up the pieces on. Trying
                                                    to piece it all together and
                                                    make sense of it all is what
                                                    I'm attempting.

                                                    The "spiritual" aspect of
                                                    eckankar is comprised
                                                    of shifting paradigms and
                                                    wishful thinking (imagination)
                                                    is encouraged. It's acting
                                                    "as if." And, there are many
                                                    mistakes in judgment and
                                                    perception that are overlooked
                                                    or seen as magical/mystical.
                                                    One's status/level in Eckankar
                                                    is what strengthens the
                                                    illusion powered by ego.
                                                    However, when all is said
                                                    and done one is left with
                                                    their own private and personal
                                                    reality which cannot be
                                                    fully shared with even
                                                    those we view as intimate.

                                                    If Initiations were given
                                                    for "spiritual reasons"
                                                    there would, also, be
                                                    inner knowledge and
                                                    inner communication
                                                    with the Mahanta. EK
                                                    Seminars would be
                                                    conducted on the "Inner"
                                                    via the Soul body and
                                                    these would be free
                                                    of charge!

                                                    Yes, Service is key for
                                                    Klemp's volunteer Sales
                                                    Team and is promoted
                                                    regularly. However, training
                                                    is required in order for
                                                    EKists to seem and sound
                                                    more professional and
                                                    knowledgable and to prepare
                                                    Eckists to be flexible and
                                                    unscathed in all situations.
                                                    Plus, the training will aid
                                                    in promoting those on the
                                                    "fast track" and update
                                                    the old timers to the new
                                                    procedures.

                                                    Basically, Service to the
                                                    Mahanta's Mission is
                                                    key. Getting noticed, in
                                                    a positive way, is key as
                                                    well. Training is also a
                                                    key element in getting
                                                    promoted. Being in Satsang
                                                    and teaching a class is
                                                    a plus as well. Doing intros
                                                    will help and being seen
                                                    at the EWS will help too.
                                                    Always smile and know
                                                    the current info from
                                                    HK's stories and books.

                                                    According to Eckankar
                                                    the initiation numbers
                                                    are yardstick measurements
                                                    of one's spiritual growth.
                                                    It's an enticing sounding
                                                    spin but the reality is very
                                                    bureaucratic and religious
                                                    in the end.

                                                    Prometheus





                                                    Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                    Prometheus,

                                                    The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.

                                                    As a young person, I blamed my parents for all I didn't get growing up. I think most of us do get critical of the job our parents did at some point. I must say my upbringing wasn't very good over all.

                                                    Well, the way I worked it out for myself was I decided they gave me the best they knew how to give at the time. There was love there and they did give me as much as they were capable of. They gave what they could. They were not capable of more.

                                                    I like most people have done things that I now consider mistakes, even some really bad mistakes. But just like my parents I acted under the best info I had at the time.

                                                    It is not an excuse and it is not a victim type attitude. If you don't know better, you can't do better.

                                                    If I knew when I was born, all I know now, I could have avoided most of the mistakes I ever made.

                                                    We all know that's not possible.

                                                    I know some of us come in as more advanced souls but we don't get here and immediately know what we are; not with out some experience in life. It's the bumps and scrapes that helps us define who we are.

                                                    You did no permanent damage to anyone in eckankar because nothing we experience has a forever affect. If they held on to resentment about an initiation, that is theirs to work out.

                                                    You weren't even told the real lies that the org perpetrates to keep people in.

                                                    You were forced to play a guessing game about the whole thing with the half truths you got.

                                                    Besides you were indoctrinated into the world of how to be a good eckist, good HI and all positions you may have held.

                                                    You believed in what you were doing because you believed in the the teachings and the org.

                                                    How can you be wrong if you don't know you are wrong?

                                                    You got to a point where you decided you were wrong.

                                                    You changed course.

                                                    A not so strong person might have stayed in the circus knowing they were wrong but wouldn't change it.

                                                    In my eyes that makes you blameless for anything that happened in the org.

                                                    I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations. What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development? I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons. It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org. Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone. Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar? Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money. Is that it?

                                                    I read every eckankar book available at the time I was in. I even had access to some that were out of print which were loaned to me by some one who was in during Paul's time. I got to read Letters to Gail and Paul's books of fiction which I have forgotten the names of now. If eckankar is now depending on that dry, uninspiring crap hk writes, eckankar is doomed. There's no way, new people will get hooked on that stuff.

                                                    Thank you Prometheus


                                                    prometheus wrote:

                                                    Hello Janice, Non and All,
                                                    Thank you for the kind
                                                    words and understanding.
                                                    It got me to thinking about
                                                    the basis for the whole EK
                                                    initiation eligibility screening.

                                                    I think that we've all heard
                                                    about the importance of
                                                    keeping the EK Teachings
                                                    "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
                                                    must be current on procedures,
                                                    and guidelines which will,
                                                    also, ensure that they are
                                                    able to regurgitate the
                                                    approved propaganda.
                                                    The initiation eligibility
                                                    screenings are to sort out
                                                    those who still need more
                                                    training or are ready to
                                                    advance to the next stage
                                                    and take on more responsibilities
                                                    with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
                                                    Sales Teams.

                                                    Plus, the initiation screenings
                                                    ensure that Klemp will have
                                                    people who are willing to
                                                    participate in the promotion
                                                    of the organization. It has
                                                    nothing to do with one's
                                                    spiritual growth. But, sincerity
                                                    and believability goes a
                                                    long way in convincing others.
                                                    However, one can't be too
                                                    deluded. One needs to be
                                                    believable and this is why
                                                    the faithful are the ones most
                                                    shocked when they can finally
                                                    open their minds to hear
                                                    the truth.

                                                    Maybe most of the heavy
                                                    handed methods, lack of
                                                    empathy and compassion,
                                                    are rationalizations where
                                                    the RESAs are thinking
                                                    they are toughening up
                                                    and strengthening Soul
                                                    while, also, protecting
                                                    the Mahanta, supporting
                                                    his "Mission," and keeping
                                                    the EK Teachings "pure"
                                                    and unchangeable over
                                                    time.

                                                    When taking a second look;
                                                    HK has his RESAs confused.
                                                    How does Klemp continue
                                                    to promote "change" and
                                                    is always updating things
                                                    while keeping the "original"
                                                    EK Teachings by Twitchell
                                                    "pure?" The truth is that,
                                                    as LEM, Klemp has the
                                                    authority to Change and
                                                    revisit all EK Dogma and
                                                    "update" and revise it
                                                    with his own spin.

                                                    Therefore, only the current
                                                    EK teachings (Guidelines
                                                    included) are "pure" according
                                                    to what Klemp is suggesting.
                                                    Except, the reason why HK
                                                    has chosen not to reprint
                                                    most of Twitchell's books
                                                    is because they are highly
                                                    plagiarized versus being
                                                    "current" with today's higher
                                                    consciousness.

                                                    The foundation of Eckankar
                                                    is built upon a con and a
                                                    hoax and is not even copied
                                                    from the highest "truths"
                                                    of other religions since these
                                                    religions are flawed as well.
                                                    Twitchell's books are more
                                                    evidence to prove the case
                                                    and to show that he was
                                                    simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
                                                    and a narcissistic wannabe.

                                                    Prometheus
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