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Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, In the Dec. 2012 H.I. Letter I ve read that Klemp still needs to update his Guidelines for the H.I.s in the field and chastise those who are slow to
    Message 1 of 25 , Dec 12, 2012
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      Hello All,
      In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
      Letter I've read that
      Klemp still needs to
      update his Guidelines
      for the H.I.s in the
      field and chastise
      those who are slow
      to get with the program.

      Many long-time H.I.s
      want the freedom
      of Soul to be more
      individualistic,
      spontaneous, and
      creative by thinking
      they (Soul) can operate
      outside-of-the-box,
      thus, being channels
      for the ECK. Klemp
      has previously stated
      that he's imperfect,
      but that's not the case
      with the ECK, correct?

      Why, then, shouldn't
      their current (Present)
      Inner EK Guidance be
      followed versus that
      of outer set-in-stone
      ESC Guidelines printed
      in the Past and approved
      by a committee of imperfect
      people on a plane ruled
      by the KAL?

      H.I.s still haven't learned
      that it doesn't work
      that way in Klemp's
      version of ECKankar.
      It's a hierarchy where
      everything is spelled
      out and controlled
      by him and his secret
      RESA police and that
      all field work must be
      approved of first and
      follow the current
      Guidelines.

      Many inexperienced
      EKists like the idea of
      being told how to do
      this or that and what
      approved books to use
      and what to say and
      other details to make
      the promotion of
      Eckankar easier.

      But the real point the
      ESC (Klemp) is making
      is to have EK PR more
      consistent and cookie
      cutter looking/sounding
      for the public.

      Plus, the EK Guidelines
      are like following a
      recipe set-in-stone
      that disregards individual
      or regional tastes and
      disallows any additions
      or omissions of other
      ingredients, methods,
      and/or spices.

      Klemp's foretold admonishments
      are about H.I.s resisting
      change. They "rock the
      boat" out of "fear" and
      that's "it's all about fear."
      That "they huddle in packs"
      and "reinforce in each other
      a group's opposition to
      anything new." Strange
      that Klemp's H.I.s are
      subject to fear since he's
      supposed to protect them!

      However, the real 'change'
      that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
      Klemp's nonsense and
      heavy handed control tactics.
      Many H.I.s, however, chose
      the Freedom of Soul versus
      being bound to dogma.
      HK side-steps delivering
      on his promises of protection
      and never has anything
      profound to share. And,
      where are those Higher
      Initiations that are, supposedly,
      yardsticks in measuring
      Consciousness and Spiritual
      Growth? Klemp is playing
      the long-con and is, thus,
      stingy and self-serving.

      Harold goes on to say that
      these H.I.s are "obstructions
      on the path to God instead
      of being stepping stones."
      Apparently, being creative
      and spontaneous and
      following "Inner Nudges"
      and/or "Signs" are not
      permitted if it conflicts
      with the LEM's outer,
      Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!

      The LEM states that, "We
      are here to learn." However,
      what is it that Klemp "learns"
      from others since he never
      listens? He's the Top goD
      and doesn't partake in
      two-way dialogues with
      those under his authority.

      Klemp sounds quite intolerant
      and unloving as he continues
      to chastise his H.I.s. "They
      believe that if they sit still
      and breathe only enough to
      sustain life that they may
      well dodge the lightning
      strikes of irksome change."
      Is that a threat? HK sounds
      like KAL! However, by doing
      Klemp's bidding do ECKists
      really avoid "lightning strikes?"
      Don't EKists still die of all
      sorts of illnesses and situations
      that could have be averted
      if they had gotten proper
      and immediate care? Sure!
      Therefore, Klemp can't protect
      ECKists and his veiled threats
      are meaningless... unless
      you've given this Black
      Magician power over you!

      But, it seems that HK
      has something else stuck
      in his craw. It seems to
      me that Klemp doesn't
      like his 7ths just sitting
      still and Contemplating
      or HUing, and enjoying
      life. But why shouldn't
      they take it easy after
      40 years of doing PR
      work for Eckankar!

      So, what does Klemp
      the All compassionate,
      loving, positive, and
      empathetic icon of EK
      conclude?

      "An H.I. who blatantly
      refuses to adhere to
      the ECK Guidelines
      needs to be addressed
      on the issues." Hmmmm.
      I wonder what that
      really means? Well,
      unless you're already
      a 7th you can kiss that
      next initiation good-bye
      for like 10-20 years!

      Klemp continues to say,
      "These are big stakes!
      Continued refusal means
      it's time for a replacement
      to step in. A change is
      due. Change. isn't it
      funny how we have come
      full circle?" No! It's not
      really funny. Klemp
      abuses the concept
      of "change" and makes
      it into a misnomer.

      What "changes" are there
      in Eckankar? The same
      old things are merely
      revisited, updated, dusted
      off and made to seem
      "new." It's all a facade,
      smoke and mirrors, and
      a game of pretend by
      creating brightly colored
      straws to grab at and
      cling to when drowning.

      Too bad that EKists are
      so deluded and needy
      and aren't able to read
      between the lines and
      see the real truth behind
      Klemp's words and methods.

      Prometheus
    • Non
      It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I don t really get why the H.I. s don t just implode. The klempster has nothing
      Message 2 of 25 , Dec 12, 2012
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        It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

        Non ;)

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello All,
        > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
        > Letter I've read that
        > Klemp still needs to
        > update his Guidelines
        > for the H.I.s in the
        > field and chastise
        > those who are slow
        > to get with the program.
        >
        > Many long-time H.I.s
        > want the freedom
        > of Soul to be more
        > individualistic,
        > spontaneous, and
        > creative by thinking
        > they (Soul) can operate
        > outside-of-the-box,
        > thus, being channels
        > for the ECK. Klemp
        > has previously stated
        > that he's imperfect,
        > but that's not the case
        > with the ECK, correct?
        >
        > Why, then, shouldn't
        > their current (Present)
        > Inner EK Guidance be
        > followed versus that
        > of outer set-in-stone
        > ESC Guidelines printed
        > in the Past and approved
        > by a committee of imperfect
        > people on a plane ruled
        > by the KAL?
        >
        > H.I.s still haven't learned
        > that it doesn't work
        > that way in Klemp's
        > version of ECKankar.
        > It's a hierarchy where
        > everything is spelled
        > out and controlled
        > by him and his secret
        > RESA police and that
        > all field work must be
        > approved of first and
        > follow the current
        > Guidelines.
        >
        > Many inexperienced
        > EKists like the idea of
        > being told how to do
        > this or that and what
        > approved books to use
        > and what to say and
        > other details to make
        > the promotion of
        > Eckankar easier.
        >
        > But the real point the
        > ESC (Klemp) is making
        > is to have EK PR more
        > consistent and cookie
        > cutter looking/sounding
        > for the public.
        >
        > Plus, the EK Guidelines
        > are like following a
        > recipe set-in-stone
        > that disregards individual
        > or regional tastes and
        > disallows any additions
        > or omissions of other
        > ingredients, methods,
        > and/or spices.
        >
        > Klemp's foretold admonishments
        > are about H.I.s resisting
        > change. They "rock the
        > boat" out of "fear" and
        > that's "it's all about fear."
        > That "they huddle in packs"
        > and "reinforce in each other
        > a group's opposition to
        > anything new." Strange
        > that Klemp's H.I.s are
        > subject to fear since he's
        > supposed to protect them!
        >
        > However, the real 'change'
        > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
        > Klemp's nonsense and
        > heavy handed control tactics.
        > Many H.I.s, however, chose
        > the Freedom of Soul versus
        > being bound to dogma.
        > HK side-steps delivering
        > on his promises of protection
        > and never has anything
        > profound to share. And,
        > where are those Higher
        > Initiations that are, supposedly,
        > yardsticks in measuring
        > Consciousness and Spiritual
        > Growth? Klemp is playing
        > the long-con and is, thus,
        > stingy and self-serving.
        >
        > Harold goes on to say that
        > these H.I.s are "obstructions
        > on the path to God instead
        > of being stepping stones."
        > Apparently, being creative
        > and spontaneous and
        > following "Inner Nudges"
        > and/or "Signs" are not
        > permitted if it conflicts
        > with the LEM's outer,
        > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
        >
        > The LEM states that, "We
        > are here to learn." However,
        > what is it that Klemp "learns"
        > from others since he never
        > listens? He's the Top goD
        > and doesn't partake in
        > two-way dialogues with
        > those under his authority.
        >
        > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
        > and unloving as he continues
        > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
        > believe that if they sit still
        > and breathe only enough to
        > sustain life that they may
        > well dodge the lightning
        > strikes of irksome change."
        > Is that a threat? HK sounds
        > like KAL! However, by doing
        > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
        > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
        > Don't EKists still die of all
        > sorts of illnesses and situations
        > that could have be averted
        > if they had gotten proper
        > and immediate care? Sure!
        > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
        > ECKists and his veiled threats
        > are meaningless... unless
        > you've given this Black
        > Magician power over you!
        >
        > But, it seems that HK
        > has something else stuck
        > in his craw. It seems to
        > me that Klemp doesn't
        > like his 7ths just sitting
        > still and Contemplating
        > or HUing, and enjoying
        > life. But why shouldn't
        > they take it easy after
        > 40 years of doing PR
        > work for Eckankar!
        >
        > So, what does Klemp
        > the All compassionate,
        > loving, positive, and
        > empathetic icon of EK
        > conclude?
        >
        > "An H.I. who blatantly
        > refuses to adhere to
        > the ECK Guidelines
        > needs to be addressed
        > on the issues." Hmmmm.
        > I wonder what that
        > really means? Well,
        > unless you're already
        > a 7th you can kiss that
        > next initiation good-bye
        > for like 10-20 years!
        >
        > Klemp continues to say,
        > "These are big stakes!
        > Continued refusal means
        > it's time for a replacement
        > to step in. A change is
        > due. Change. isn't it
        > funny how we have come
        > full circle?" No! It's not
        > really funny. Klemp
        > abuses the concept
        > of "change" and makes
        > it into a misnomer.
        >
        > What "changes" are there
        > in Eckankar? The same
        > old things are merely
        > revisited, updated, dusted
        > off and made to seem
        > "new." It's all a facade,
        > smoke and mirrors, and
        > a game of pretend by
        > creating brightly colored
        > straws to grab at and
        > cling to when drowning.
        >
        > Too bad that EKists are
        > so deluded and needy
        > and aren't able to read
        > between the lines and
        > see the real truth behind
        > Klemp's words and methods.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Non eckchains and All, What has me ROFLMAO is that Klemp has enough of a problem that he used it in the ASK The MASTER section of the H.I. Letter! And,
        Message 3 of 25 , Dec 12, 2012
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          Hello Non eckchains and All,
          What has me ROFLMAO is
          that Klemp has enough of
          a problem that he used it
          in the ASK The MASTER
          section of the H.I. Letter!
          And, it was the only question!
          They had, supposedly, an
          H.I. write-in and point out
          the problem. No name given.

          I remember when I had
          to deal with some older
          H.I.s (former RESAs) in
          coordinator and director
          positions and it was
          impossible to get this
          one to follow the Guidelines
          on EK Worship Services
          (EWS). Many long-time
          H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
          Guidelines and my
          RESA turned a blind-
          eye to it all. We had
          so many former RESAs
          in volunteer positions
          that it was impossible
          to get them on the
          same page and to follow
          procedures. I think
          that some were just
          burned out and tired
          of Klemp's B.S. but
          didn't want to leave.
          Maybe they had too
          many friendships to
          lose. Plus, let's face
          it. A lot of these people
          are losers in the real
          world but are big shots
          in Eckankar. Those
          Higher Initiations are
          a big deal to the ego!

          Prometheus


          "Non" eckchains wrote:
          It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
          don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
          offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
          over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
          even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

          Non ;)

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Hello All,
          > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
          > Letter I've read that
          > Klemp still needs to
          > update his Guidelines
          > for the H.I.s in the
          > field and chastise
          > those who are slow
          > to get with the program.
          >
          > Many long-time H.I.s
          > want the freedom
          > of Soul to be more
          > individualistic,
          > spontaneous, and
          > creative by thinking
          > they (Soul) can operate
          > outside-of-the-box,
          > thus, being channels
          > for the ECK. Klemp
          > has previously stated
          > that he's imperfect,
          > but that's not the case
          > with the ECK, correct?
          >
          > Why, then, shouldn't
          > their current (Present)
          > Inner EK Guidance be
          > followed versus that
          > of outer set-in-stone
          > ESC Guidelines printed
          > in the Past and approved
          > by a committee of imperfect
          > people on a plane ruled
          > by the KAL?
          >
          > H.I.s still haven't learned
          > that freedom of expression
          > doesn't work in Klemp's
          > version of ECKankar.
          > It's a hierarchy where
          > everything is spelled
          > out and controlled
          > by him and his secret
          > RESA police, plus, all
          > field work must be
          > approved via the
          > current Guidelines.
          >
          > Many inexperienced
          > EKists like the idea of
          > being told how to do
          > this or that and what
          > approved books to use
          > and what to say and
          > other details to make
          > the promotion of
          > Eckankar easier.
          >
          > But the real point the
          > ESC (Klemp) is making
          > is to have EK PR more
          > consistent and cookie
          > cutter looking/sounding
          > for the public.
          >
          > Plus, the EK Guidelines
          > are like following a
          > recipe set-in-stone
          > that disregards individual
          > or regional tastes and
          > disallows any additions
          > or omissions of other
          > ingredients, methods,
          > and/or spices.
          >
          > Klemp's foretold admonishments
          > are about H.I.s resisting
          > change. He says they "rock
          > the boat" out of "fear" and
          > that "it's all about fear."
          > Also, "they huddle in packs"
          > and "reinforce in each other
          > a group's opposition to
          > anything new." Strange
          > that Klemp's H.I.s are
          > subject to fear since he's
          > supposed to protect them!
          > This is how the KAL works.
          > Klemp is his agent.
          >
          > However, the real 'change'
          > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
          > Klemp's nonsense and
          > heavy handed control tactics.
          > Many H.I.s, however, chose
          > the Freedom of Soul versus
          > being bound to dogma.
          > HK side-steps delivering
          > on his promises of protection
          > and never has anything
          > profound to share. And,
          > where are those Higher
          > Initiations that are, supposedly,
          > yardsticks in measuring
          > Consciousness and Spiritual
          > Growth? Klemp is playing
          > the long-con and is, thus,
          > stingy and self-serving.
          >
          > Harold goes on to say that
          > these H.I.s are "obstructions
          > on the path to God instead
          > of being stepping stones."
          > Apparently, being creative
          > and spontaneous and
          > following "Inner Nudges"
          > and/or "Signs" are not
          > permitted if it conflicts
          > with the LEM's outer,
          > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
          >
          > The LEM states that, "We
          > are here to learn." However,
          > what is it that Klemp "learns"
          > from others since he never
          > listens? He's the Top goD
          > and doesn't partake in
          > two-way dialogues with
          > those under his authority.
          >
          > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
          > and unloving as he continues
          > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
          > believe that if they sit still
          > and breathe only enough to
          > sustain life that they may
          > well dodge the lightning
          > strikes of irksome change."
          > Is that a threat? HK sounds
          > like KAL! However, by doing
          > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
          > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
          > Don't EKists still die of all
          > sorts of illnesses and situations
          > that could have be averted
          > if they had gotten proper
          > and immediate care? Sure!
          > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
          > ECKists and his veiled threats
          > are meaningless... unless
          > you've given this Black
          > Magician power over you!
          >
          > But, it seems that HK
          > has something else stuck
          > in his craw. It seems to
          > me that Klemp doesn't
          > like his 7ths just sitting
          > still and Contemplating
          > or HUing, and enjoying
          > life. But why shouldn't
          > they take it easy after
          > 40 years of doing PR
          > work for Eckankar!
          >
          > So, what does Klemp
          > the All compassionate,
          > loving, positive, and
          > empathetic icon of EK
          > conclude?
          >
          > "An H.I. who blatantly
          > refuses to adhere to
          > the ECK Guidelines
          > needs to be addressed
          > on the issues." Hmmmm.
          > I wonder what that
          > really means? Well,
          > unless you're already
          > a 7th you can kiss that
          > next initiation good-bye
          > for like 10-20 years!
          >
          > Klemp continues to say,
          > "These are big stakes!
          > Continued refusal means
          > it's time for a replacement
          > to step in. A change is
          > due. Change. isn't it
          > funny how we have come
          > full circle?" No! It's not
          > really funny. Klemp
          > abuses the concept
          > of "change" and makes
          > it into a misnomer.
          >
          > What "changes" are there
          > in Eckankar? The same
          > old things are merely
          > revisited, updated, dusted
          > off and made to seem
          > "new." It's all a facade,
          > smoke and mirrors, and
          > a game of pretend by
          > creating brightly colored
          > straws to grab at and
          > cling to when drowning.
          >
          > Too bad that EKists are
          > so deluded and needy
          > and aren't able to read
          > between the lines and
          > see the real truth behind
          > Klemp's words and methods.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
        • Janice Pfeiffer
          Thank all of you for the interesting reading.  I think it would be cool if klemp keeps tightening the screws.  Hopefully, it will only drive more away.  So
          Message 4 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Thank all of you for the interesting reading.  I think it would be cool if klemp keeps tightening the screws.  Hopefully, it will only drive more away.  So many of you had a lot more time than I did in eckankar.  I really had a hard time dealing with HI attitudes from day one.  Reading what you have to say explains a lot of things for me.  I appreciate it very much.   

            --- On Thu, 12/13/12, Non <eckchains@...> wrote:

            From: Non <eckchains@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 5:48 AM

             
            It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

            Non ;)

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello All,
            > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
            > Letter I've read that
            > Klemp still needs to
            > update his Guidelines
            > for the H.I.s in the
            > field and chastise
            > those who are slow
            > to get with the program.
            >
            > Many long-time H.I.s
            > want the freedom
            > of Soul to be more
            > individualistic,
            > spontaneous, and
            > creative by thinking
            > they (Soul) can operate
            > outside-of-the-box,
            > thus, being channels
            > for the ECK. Klemp
            > has previously stated
            > that he's imperfect,
            > but that's not the case
            > with the ECK, correct?
            >
            > Why, then, shouldn't
            > their current (Present)
            > Inner EK Guidance be
            > followed versus that
            > of outer set-in-stone
            > ESC Guidelines printed
            > in the Past and approved
            > by a committee of imperfect
            > people on a plane ruled
            > by the KAL?
            >
            > H.I.s still haven't learned
            > that it doesn't work
            > that way in Klemp's
            > version of ECKankar.
            > It's a hierarchy where
            > everything is spelled
            > out and controlled
            > by him and his secret
            > RESA police and that
            > all field work must be
            > approved of first and
            > follow the current
            > Guidelines.
            >
            > Many inexperienced
            > EKists like the idea of
            > being told how to do
            > this or that and what
            > approved books to use
            > and what to say and
            > other details to make
            > the promotion of
            > Eckankar easier.
            >
            > But the real point the
            > ESC (Klemp) is making
            > is to have EK PR more
            > consistent and cookie
            > cutter looking/sounding
            > for the public.
            >
            > Plus, the EK Guidelines
            > are like following a
            > recipe set-in-stone
            > that disregards individual
            > or regional tastes and
            > disallows any additions
            > or omissions of other
            > ingredients, methods,
            > and/or spices.
            >
            > Klemp's foretold admonishments
            > are about H.I.s resisting
            > change. They "rock the
            > boat" out of "fear" and
            > that's "it's all about fear."
            > That "they huddle in packs"
            > and "reinforce in each other
            > a group's opposition to
            > anything new." Strange
            > that Klemp's H.I.s are
            > subject to fear since he's
            > supposed to protect them!
            >
            > However, the real 'change'
            > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
            > Klemp's nonsense and
            > heavy handed control tactics.
            > Many H.I.s, however, chose
            > the Freedom of Soul versus
            > being bound to dogma.
            > HK side-steps delivering
            > on his promises of protection
            > and never has anything
            > profound to share. And,
            > where are those Higher
            > Initiations that are, supposedly,
            > yardsticks in measuring
            > Consciousness and Spiritual
            > Growth? Klemp is playing
            > the long-con and is, thus,
            > stingy and self-serving.
            >
            > Harold goes on to say that
            > these H.I.s are "obstructions
            > on the path to God instead
            > of being stepping stones."
            > Apparently, being creative
            > and spontaneous and
            > following "Inner Nudges"
            > and/or "Signs" are not
            > permitted if it conflicts
            > with the LEM's outer,
            > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
            >
            > The LEM states that, "We
            > are here to learn." However,
            > what is it that Klemp "learns"
            > from others since he never
            > listens? He's the Top goD
            > and doesn't partake in
            > two-way dialogues with
            > those under his authority.
            >
            > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
            > and unloving as he continues
            > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
            > believe that if they sit still
            > and breathe only enough to
            > sustain life that they may
            > well dodge the lightning
            > strikes of irksome change."
            > Is that a threat? HK sounds
            > like KAL! However, by doing
            > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
            > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
            > Don't EKists still die of all
            > sorts of illnesses and situations
            > that could have be averted
            > if they had gotten proper
            > and immediate care? Sure!
            > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
            > ECKists and his veiled threats
            > are meaningless... unless
            > you've given this Black
            > Magician power over you!
            >
            > But, it seems that HK
            > has something else stuck
            > in his craw. It seems to
            > me that Klemp doesn't
            > like his 7ths just sitting
            > still and Contemplating
            > or HUing, and enjoying
            > life. But why shouldn't
            > they take it easy after
            > 40 years of doing PR
            > work for Eckankar!
            >
            > So, what does Klemp
            > the All compassionate,
            > loving, positive, and
            > empathetic icon of EK
            > conclude?
            >
            > "An H.I. who blatantly
            > refuses to adhere to
            > the ECK Guidelines
            > needs to be addressed
            > on the issues." Hmmmm.
            > I wonder what that
            > really means? Well,
            > unless you're already
            > a 7th you can kiss that
            > next initiation good-bye
            > for like 10-20 years!
            >
            > Klemp continues to say,
            > "These are big stakes!
            > Continued refusal means
            > it's time for a replacement
            > to step in. A change is
            > due. Change. isn't it
            > funny how we have come
            > full circle?" No! It's not
            > really funny. Klemp
            > abuses the concept
            > of "change" and makes
            > it into a misnomer.
            >
            > What "changes" are there
            > in Eckankar? The same
            > old things are merely
            > revisited, updated, dusted
            > off and made to seem
            > "new." It's all a facade,
            > smoke and mirrors, and
            > a game of pretend by
            > creating brightly colored
            > straws to grab at and
            > cling to when drowning.
            >
            > Too bad that EKists are
            > so deluded and needy
            > and aren't able to read
            > between the lines and
            > see the real truth behind
            > Klemp's words and methods.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >

          • Russ Rodnick
            I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
            Message 5 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

              There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

              Russ




              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

               
              Hello Non eckchains and All,
              What has me ROFLMAO is
              that Klemp has enough of
              a problem that he used it
              in the ASK The MASTER
              section of the H.I. Letter!
              And, it was the only question!
              They had, supposedly, an
              H.I. write-in and point out
              the problem. No name given.

              I remember when I had
              to deal with some older
              H.I.s (former RESAs) in
              coordinator and director
              positions and it was
              impossible to get this
              one to follow the Guidelines
              on EK Worship Services
              (EWS). Many long-time
              H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
              Guidelines and my
              RESA turned a blind-
              eye to it all. We had
              so many former RESAs
              in volunteer positions
              that it was impossible
              to get them on the
              same page and to follow
              procedures. I think
              that some were just
              burned out and tired
              of Klemp's B.S. but
              didn't want to leave.
              Maybe they had too
              many friendships to
              lose. Plus, let's face
              it. A lot of these people
              are losers in the real
              world but are big shots
              in Eckankar. Those
              Higher Initiations are
              a big deal to the ego!

              Prometheus


              "Non" eckchains wrote:
              It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
              don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
              offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
              over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
              even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

              Non ;)

              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hello All,
              > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
              > Letter I've read that
              > Klemp still needs to
              > update his Guidelines
              > for the H.I.s in the
              > field and chastise
              > those who are slow
              > to get with the program.
              >
              > Many long-time H.I.s
              > want the freedom
              > of Soul to be more
              > individualistic,
              > spontaneous, and
              > creative by thinking
              > they (Soul) can operate
              > outside-of-the-box,
              > thus, being channels
              > for the ECK. Klemp
              > has previously stated
              > that he's imperfect,
              > but that's not the case
              > with the ECK, correct?
              >
              > Why, then, shouldn't
              > their current (Present)
              > Inner EK Guidance be
              > followed versus that
              > of outer set-in-stone
              > ESC Guidelines printed
              > in the Past and approved
              > by a committee of imperfect
              > people on a plane ruled
              > by the KAL?
              >
              > H.I.s still haven't learned
              > that freedom of expression
              > doesn't work in Klemp's
              > version of ECKankar.
              > It's a hierarchy where
              > everything is spelled
              > out and controlled
              > by him and his secret
              > RESA police, plus, all
              > field work must be
              > approved via the
              > current Guidelines.
              >
              > Many inexperienced
              > EKists like the idea of
              > being told how to do
              > this or that and what
              > approved books to use
              > and what to say and
              > other details to make
              > the promotion of
              > Eckankar easier.
              >
              > But the real point the
              > ESC (Klemp) is making
              > is to have EK PR more
              > consistent and cookie
              > cutter looking/sounding
              > for the public.
              >
              > Plus, the EK Guidelines
              > are like following a
              > recipe set-in-stone
              > that disregards individual
              > or regional tastes and
              > disallows any additions
              > or omissions of other
              > ingredients, methods,
              > and/or spices.
              >
              > Klemp's foretold admonishments
              > are about H.I.s resisting
              > change. He says they "rock
              > the boat" out of "fear" and
              > that "it's all about fear."
              > Also, "they huddle in packs"
              > and "reinforce in each other
              > a group's opposition to
              > anything new." Strange
              > that Klemp's H.I.s are
              > subject to fear since he's
              > supposed to protect them!
              > This is how the KAL works.
              > Klemp is his agent.
              >
              > However, the real 'change'
              > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
              > Klemp's nonsense and
              > heavy handed control tactics.
              > Many H.I.s, however, chose
              > the Freedom of Soul versus
              > being bound to dogma.
              > HK side-steps delivering
              > on his promises of protection
              > and never has anything
              > profound to share. And,
              > where are those Higher
              > Initiations that are, supposedly,
              > yardsticks in measuring
              > Consciousness and Spiritual
              > Growth? Klemp is playing
              > the long-con and is, thus,
              > stingy and self-serving.
              >
              > Harold goes on to say that
              > these H.I.s are "obstructions
              > on the path to God instead
              > of being stepping stones."
              > Apparently, being creative
              > and spontaneous and
              > following "Inner Nudges"
              > and/or "Signs" are not
              > permitted if it conflicts
              > with the LEM's outer,
              > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
              >
              > The LEM states that, "We
              > are here to learn." However,
              > what is it that Klemp "learns"
              > from others since he never
              > listens? He's the Top goD
              > and doesn't partake in
              > two-way dialogues with
              > those under his authority.
              >
              > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
              > and unloving as he continues
              > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
              > believe that if they sit still
              > and breathe only enough to
              > sustain life that they may
              > well dodge the lightning
              > strikes of irksome change."
              > Is that a threat? HK sounds
              > like KAL! However, by doing
              > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
              > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
              > Don't EKists still die of all
              > sorts of illnesses and situations
              > that could have be averted
              > if they had gotten proper
              > and immediate care? Sure!
              > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
              > ECKists and his veiled threats
              > are meaningless... unless
              > you've given this Black
              > Magician power over you!
              >
              > But, it seems that HK
              > has something else stuck
              > in his craw. It seems to
              > me that Klemp doesn't
              > like his 7ths just sitting
              > still and Contemplating
              > or HUing, and enjoying
              > life. But why shouldn't
              > they take it easy after
              > 40 years of doing PR
              > work for Eckankar!
              >
              > So, what does Klemp
              > the All compassionate,
              > loving, positive, and
              > empathetic icon of EK
              > conclude?
              >
              > "An H.I. who blatantly
              > refuses to adhere to
              > the ECK Guidelines
              > needs to be addressed
              > on the issues." Hmmmm.
              > I wonder what that
              > really means? Well,
              > unless you're already
              > a 7th you can kiss that
              > next initiation good-bye
              > for like 10-20 years!
              >
              > Klemp continues to say,
              > "These are big stakes!
              > Continued refusal means
              > it's time for a replacement
              > to step in. A change is
              > due. Change. isn't it
              > funny how we have come
              > full circle?" No! It's not
              > really funny. Klemp
              > abuses the concept
              > of "change" and makes
              > it into a misnomer.
              >
              > What "changes" are there
              > in Eckankar? The same
              > old things are merely
              > revisited, updated, dusted
              > off and made to seem
              > "new." It's all a facade,
              > smoke and mirrors, and
              > a game of pretend by
              > creating brightly colored
              > straws to grab at and
              > cling to when drowning.
              >
              > Too bad that EKists are
              > so deluded and needy
              > and aren't able to read
              > between the lines and
              > see the real truth behind
              > Klemp's words and methods.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >



            • prometheus_973
              Hello Russ and All, I remember when I was heavily involved and very close to the old RESA. EK state and local center business, dead lines for events and PR,
              Message 6 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Russ and All,
                I remember when I
                was heavily involved
                and very close to the
                old RESA. EK state and
                local center business,
                dead lines for events
                and PR, HK's expectations
                of following procedures
                and the complex Guidelines
                stressed all of us out.
                Just getting the newsletter
                out on time was a pain
                in the ass.

                Then, there were the
                job descriptions for
                coordinator and director
                positions. When asking
                people to volunteer for
                these positions they had
                no idea of what was really
                expected of them and
                of what they were getting
                into until we got them
                their job description folder.
                Some EKists couldn't handle
                the duties and the oversight.

                I changed and was too
                serious when at the EK
                center or in business
                meetings. But, I was just
                following the orders and
                expectations and the lead
                of the (fascist) RESA who
                was following the fascist
                Leader (HK).

                H.I.s can become very
                consumed when caught
                up in and involved with
                the internal workings
                of the org. Plus, Klemp
                has never been empathetic
                and is results oriented,
                so this is why many of
                his RESAs are chosen.
                They are either very hands-
                on and controlling, or
                tend to delegate responsibility
                to others who are more
                heavy-handed, mean-
                spirited or ego driven
                and fascist acting.

                In actuality many EKists
                only have Eckankar in
                common with one another.
                Some of these people
                are okay and were fun
                to hang out with at times,
                but this wasn't true with
                too many on a personal
                level. There were personality
                conflicts or quirks that
                were just too weird.

                That reminds me of this
                Holiday Season. Many
                EKists will have Christmas
                trees and will decorate
                with lights and will celebrate
                the holidays and the New
                Year just like normal people.

                But ECKists don't have
                that. Their New Year is
                Oct. 22nd which was
                Twitchell's B-Day. So,
                when you think of it
                Oct. 22nd was not just
                the EK New Year but was
                like their Christmas too!

                It's no wonder EKists seem
                to be schizophrenic when
                it comes to the holidays.
                Most ECKists don't realize
                that Oct. 22nd was created
                as the date for the handing
                of the Rod of ECK Power
                (the EK New Year) because
                it was Twitchell's B-Day!
                This is, also, why Klemp
                doesn't reveal his birth
                month and day since he,
                the (supposed) Mahanta,
                didn't choose to be born
                on Oct. 22nd as well.

                Prometheus


                Russ Rodnick wrote:
                I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community.

                There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things.

                Russ

                prometheus wrote:
                Hello Non eckchains and All,
                What has me ROFLMAO is
                that Klemp has enough of
                a problem that he used it
                in the ASK The MASTER
                section of the H.I. Letter!
                And, it was the only question!
                They had, supposedly, an
                H.I. write-in and point out
                the problem. No name given.

                I remember when I had
                to deal with some older
                H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                coordinator and director
                positions and it was
                impossible to get this
                one to follow the Guidelines
                on EK Worship Services
                (EWS). Many long-time
                H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                Guidelines and my
                RESA turned a blind-
                eye to it all. We had
                so many former RESAs
                in volunteer positions
                that it was impossible
                to get them on the
                same page and to follow
                procedures. I think
                that some were just
                burned out and tired
                of Klemp's B.S. but
                didn't want to leave.
                Maybe they had too
                many friendships to
                lose. Plus, let's face
                it. A lot of these people
                are losers in the real
                world but are big shots
                in Eckankar. Those
                Higher Initiations are
                a big deal to the ego!

                Prometheus


                "Non" eckchains wrote:
                It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                Non ;)

                prometheus wrote:
                >
                > Hello All,
                > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                > Letter I've read that
                > Klemp still needs to
                > update his Guidelines
                > for the H.I.s in the
                > field and chastise
                > those who are slow
                > to get with the program.
                >
                > Many long-time H.I.s
                > want the freedom
                > of Soul to be more
                > individualistic,
                > spontaneous, and
                > creative by thinking
                > they (Soul) can operate
                > outside-of-the-box,
                > thus, being channels
                > for the ECK. Klemp
                > has previously stated
                > that he's imperfect,
                > but that's not the case
                > with the ECK, correct?
                >
                > Why, then, shouldn't
                > their current (Present)
                > Inner EK Guidance be
                > followed versus that
                > of outer set-in-stone
                > ESC Guidelines printed
                > in the Past and approved
                > by a committee of imperfect
                > people on a plane ruled
                > by the KAL?
                >
                > H.I.s still haven't learned
                > that freedom of expression
                > doesn't work in Klemp's
                > version of ECKankar.
                > It's a hierarchy where
                > everything is spelled
                > out and controlled
                > by him and his secret
                > RESA police, plus, all
                > field work must be
                > approved via the
                > current Guidelines.
                >
                > Many inexperienced
                > EKists like the idea of
                > being told how to do
                > this or that and what
                > approved books to use
                > and what to say and
                > other details to make
                > the promotion of
                > Eckankar easier.
                >
                > But the real point the
                > ESC (Klemp) is making
                > is to have EK PR more
                > consistent and cookie
                > cutter looking/sounding
                > for the public.
                >
                > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                > are like following a
                > recipe set-in-stone
                > that disregards individual
                > or regional tastes and
                > disallows any additions
                > or omissions of other
                > ingredients, methods,
                > and/or spices.
                >
                > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                > are about H.I.s resisting
                > change. He says they "rock
                > the boat" out of "fear" and
                > that "it's all about fear."
                > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                > and "reinforce in each other
                > a group's opposition to
                > anything new." Strange
                > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                > subject to fear since he's
                > supposed to protect them!
                > This is how the KAL works.
                > Klemp is his agent.
                >
                > However, the real 'change'
                > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                > Klemp's nonsense and
                > heavy handed control tactics.
                > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                > the Freedom of Soul versus
                > being bound to dogma.
                > HK side-steps delivering
                > on his promises of protection
                > and never has anything
                > profound to share. And,
                > where are those Higher
                > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                > yardsticks in measuring
                > Consciousness and Spiritual
                > Growth? Klemp is playing
                > the long-con and is, thus,
                > stingy and self-serving.
                >
                > Harold goes on to say that
                > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                > on the path to God instead
                > of being stepping stones."
                > Apparently, being creative
                > and spontaneous and
                > following "Inner Nudges"
                > and/or "Signs" are not
                > permitted if it conflicts
                > with the LEM's outer,
                > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                >
                > The LEM states that, "We
                > are here to learn." However,
                > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                > from others since he never
                > listens? He's the Top goD
                > and doesn't partake in
                > two-way dialogues with
                > those under his authority.
                >
                > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                > and unloving as he continues
                > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                > believe that if they sit still
                > and breathe only enough to
                > sustain life that they may
                > well dodge the lightning
                > strikes of irksome change."
                > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                > like KAL! However, by doing
                > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                > Don't EKists still die of all
                > sorts of illnesses and situations
                > that could have be averted
                > if they had gotten proper
                > and immediate care? Sure!
                > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                > ECKists and his veiled threats
                > are meaningless... unless
                > you've given this Black
                > Magician power over you!
                >
                > But, it seems that HK
                > has something else stuck
                > in his craw. It seems to
                > me that Klemp doesn't
                > like his 7ths just sitting
                > still and Contemplating
                > or HUing, and enjoying
                > life. But why shouldn't
                > they take it easy after
                > 40 years of doing PR
                > work for Eckankar!
                >
                > So, what does Klemp
                > the All compassionate,
                > loving, positive, and
                > empathetic icon of EK
                > conclude?
                >
                > "An H.I. who blatantly
                > refuses to adhere to
                > the ECK Guidelines
                > needs to be addressed
                > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                > I wonder what that
                > really means? Well,
                > unless you're already
                > a 7th you can kiss that
                > next initiation good-bye
                > for like 10-20 years!
                >
                > Klemp continues to say,
                > "These are big stakes!
                > Continued refusal means
                > it's time for a replacement
                > to step in. A change is
                > due. Change. isn't it
                > funny how we have come
                > full circle?" No! It's not
                > really funny. Klemp
                > abuses the concept
                > of "change" and makes
                > it into a misnomer.
                >
                > What "changes" are there
                > in Eckankar? The same
                > old things are merely
                > revisited, updated, dusted
                > off and made to seem
                > "new." It's all a facade,
                > smoke and mirrors, and
                > a game of pretend by
                > creating brightly colored
                > straws to grab at and
                > cling to when drowning.
                >
                > Too bad that EKists are
                > so deluded and needy
                > and aren't able to read
                > between the lines and
                > see the real truth behind
                > Klemp's words and methods.
                >
                > Prometheus
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Janice, Klemp will keep tightening the screws and dangling the initiation carrot. It s his M.O. However, he doesn t care about the repercussions because
                Message 7 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Janice,
                  Klemp will keep tightening
                  the screws and dangling
                  the initiation carrot. It's his
                  M.O. However, he doesn't
                  care about the repercussions
                  because he's financially
                  solid and secure with his
                  book royalties and retirement
                  plan. But he does still like
                  the attention. Eckankar, and
                  EK writing, is Klemp's hobby.

                  It's interesting if you look
                  at some pics of the H.I.s at
                  Retreats or at their H.I. Meetings
                  you might notice there are
                  many elderly (70 years plus)
                  H.I.s. Those age 60 and older
                  probably make up 75% of
                  the total number of EK Higher
                  Initiates.

                  Klemp, by slowing down initiations
                  and placing the glass ceiling
                  on the 7th has discouraged
                  many H.I.s. Of course there
                  are some 8ths and a few 9ths
                  but these numbers are nowhere
                  what they should be and don't
                  reflect the dogma or goals of
                  Twitchell. The frustration with
                  Klemp's stinginess in doling
                  out initiations via his narcissism
                  has done more harm to Eckankar
                  maintaining membership numbers
                  than any of their PR tactics have
                  been able to compensated for.

                  Yet, many EKists refuse to see
                  this reality and hold Klemp
                  responsible. HK's ploy is telling
                  them that it's all a "test" and
                  to be patient and detached
                  when, in truth, it's all a "trap."

                  There are many 7ths who have
                  had their 7th Initiation for 25
                  years! Why? Klemp is playing
                  with them and they've got too
                  much time, energy, money, status,
                  EK friends and history invested
                  to leave. It's all they know. It's
                  pitiful, and the longer and higher
                  they are the less free they are.
                  But, they are good actors and,
                  like Klemp, have learned how
                  to play the game... follow the
                  leader.

                  Prometheus

                  Janice wrote:
                  Thank all of you for the interesting reading. I think it would be cool if klemp keeps tightening the screws. Hopefully, it will only drive more away. So many of you had a lot more time than I did in eckankar. I really had a hard time dealing with HI attitudes from day one. Reading what you have to say explains a lot of things for me. I appreciate it very much.


                  Non ekchains wrote:
                  It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                  Non ;)

                  prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello All,
                  > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                  > Letter I've read that
                  > Klemp still needs to
                  > update his Guidelines
                  > for the H.I.s in the
                  > field and chastise
                  > those who are slow
                  > to get with the program.
                  >
                  > Many long-time H.I.s
                  > want the freedom
                  > of Soul to be more
                  > individualistic,
                  > spontaneous, and
                  > creative by thinking
                  > they (Soul) can operate
                  > outside-of-the-box,
                  > thus, being channels
                  > for the ECK. Klemp
                  > has previously stated
                  > that he's imperfect,
                  > but that's not the case
                  > with the ECK, correct?
                  >
                  > Why, then, shouldn't
                  > their current (Present)
                  > Inner EK Guidance be
                  > followed versus that
                  > of outer set-in-stone
                  > ESC Guidelines printed
                  > in the Past and approved
                  > by a committee of imperfect
                  > people on a plane ruled
                  > by the KAL?
                  >
                  > H.I.s still haven't learned
                  > that it doesn't work
                  > that way in Klemp's
                  > version of ECKankar.
                  > It's a hierarchy where
                  > everything is spelled
                  > out and controlled
                  > by him and his secret
                  > RESA police and that
                  > all field work must be
                  > approved of first and
                  > follow the current
                  > Guidelines.
                  >
                  > Many inexperienced
                  > EKists like the idea of
                  > being told how to do
                  > this or that and what
                  > approved books to use
                  > and what to say and
                  > other details to make
                  > the promotion of
                  > Eckankar easier.
                  >
                  > But the real point the
                  > ESC (Klemp) is making
                  > is to have EK PR more
                  > consistent and cookie
                  > cutter looking/sounding
                  > for the public.
                  >
                  > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                  > are like following a
                  > recipe set-in-stone
                  > that disregards individual
                  > or regional tastes and
                  > disallows any additions
                  > or omissions of other
                  > ingredients, methods,
                  > and/or spices.
                  >
                  > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                  > are about H.I.s resisting
                  > change. They "rock the
                  > boat" out of "fear" and
                  > that's "it's all about fear."
                  > That "they huddle in packs"
                  > and "reinforce in each other
                  > a group's opposition to
                  > anything new." Strange
                  > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                  > subject to fear since he's
                  > supposed to protect them!
                  >
                  > However, the real 'change'
                  > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                  > Klemp's nonsense and
                  > heavy handed control tactics.
                  > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                  > the Freedom of Soul versus
                  > being bound to dogma.
                  > HK side-steps delivering
                  > on his promises of protection
                  > and never has anything
                  > profound to share. And,
                  > where are those Higher
                  > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                  > yardsticks in measuring
                  > Consciousness and Spiritual
                  > Growth? Klemp is playing
                  > the long-con and is, thus,
                  > stingy and self-serving.
                  >
                  > Harold goes on to say that
                  > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                  > on the path to God instead
                  > of being stepping stones."
                  > Apparently, being creative
                  > and spontaneous and
                  > following "Inner Nudges"
                  > and/or "Signs" are not
                  > permitted if it conflicts
                  > with the LEM's outer,
                  > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                  >
                  > The LEM states that, "We
                  > are here to learn." However,
                  > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                  > from others since he never
                  > listens? He's the Top goD
                  > and doesn't partake in
                  > two-way dialogues with
                  > those under his authority.
                  >
                  > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                  > and unloving as he continues
                  > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                  > believe that if they sit still
                  > and breathe only enough to
                  > sustain life that they may
                  > well dodge the lightning
                  > strikes of irksome change."
                  > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                  > like KAL! However, by doing
                  > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                  > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                  > Don't EKists still die of all
                  > sorts of illnesses and situations
                  > that could have be averted
                  > if they had gotten proper
                  > and immediate care? Sure!
                  > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                  > ECKists and his veiled threats
                  > are meaningless... unless
                  > you've given this Black
                  > Magician power over you!
                  >
                  > But, it seems that HK
                  > has something else stuck
                  > in his craw. It seems to
                  > me that Klemp doesn't
                  > like his 7ths just sitting
                  > still and Contemplating
                  > or HUing, and enjoying
                  > life. But why shouldn't
                  > they take it easy after
                  > 40 years of doing PR
                  > work for Eckankar!
                  >
                  > So, what does Klemp
                  > the All compassionate,
                  > loving, positive, and
                  > empathetic icon of EK
                  > conclude?
                  >
                  > "An H.I. who blatantly
                  > refuses to adhere to
                  > the ECK Guidelines
                  > needs to be addressed
                  > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                  > I wonder what that
                  > really means? Well,
                  > unless you're already
                  > a 7th you can kiss that
                  > next initiation good-bye
                  > for like 10-20 years!
                  >
                  > Klemp continues to say,
                  > "These are big stakes!
                  > Continued refusal means
                  > it's time for a replacement
                  > to step in. A change is
                  > due. Change. isn't it
                  > funny how we have come
                  > full circle?" No! It's not
                  > really funny. Klemp
                  > abuses the concept
                  > of "change" and makes
                  > it into a misnomer.
                  >
                  > What "changes" are there
                  > in Eckankar? The same
                  > old things are merely
                  > revisited, updated, dusted
                  > off and made to seem
                  > "new." It's all a facade,
                  > smoke and mirrors, and
                  > a game of pretend by
                  > creating brightly colored
                  > straws to grab at and
                  > cling to when drowning.
                  >
                  > Too bad that EKists are
                  > so deluded and needy
                  > and aren't able to read
                  > between the lines and
                  > see the real truth behind
                  > Klemp's words and methods.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                • Janice Pfeiffer
                  Do you think many new members are being attracted to eckankar at this point?  I hope the org is drying up from a lack of new members.  When one cult gets
                  Message 8 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Do you think many new members are being attracted to eckankar at this point?  I hope the org is drying up from a lack of new members.  When one cult gets negative exposure hopefully they all suffer.  Scientology has been making the news with their antics a lot in the past year and their membership seems to be suffering.  I do so wish the same for eckankar. 
                     
                    When I first joined this site, I still felt some anger toward eckankar and myself also.  It wasn't easy for me to accept that I fell for it.  Since reading the postings here, I feel a lot better about myself and less angry about eckankar. 
                     
                    I would like to see them fall because I don't want others to go through what I did but I don't feel a need to do anything actively about it where as previously I was just itching to find a group that might sue the pants off of them.  My reading the postings has mellowed me about the whole thing and I see it as a very good thing.  I feel some what indifferent about it now.  However I might feel differently if I thought they were growing profusely. 
                     
                    I don't have as much time invested in eckankar as a lot of you do and I wasn't in a position to see as much as a lot of you.  Again, I am grateful for all I have learned here.  I feel this site is the most helpful thing I have found since leaving eckankar.  I did find others but I didn't learn the kinds of things I needed to know to put the whole experience in proper perspective.  After reading Ford Johnson's book, I visited his site some but I was disappointed that he seemed to be modeling his site after eckankar somewhat although he was posting stuff that appeared to be original. 
                     
                    So I hope you know you are providing a very valuable place for those who have left the org and need to get a grip on things and  if some one who might have an interest in eckankar, reads the postings here, it most definitely would  keep them from joining.  Do keep up the good work. 
                     
                    Have a good night all. 

                    --- On Thu, 12/13/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 11:28 PM

                     
                    Hello Janice,
                    Klemp will keep tightening
                    the screws and dangling
                    the initiation carrot. It's his
                    M.O. However, he doesn't
                    care about the repercussions
                    because he's financially
                    solid and secure with his
                    book royalties and retirement
                    plan. But he does still like
                    the attention. Eckankar, and
                    EK writing, is Klemp's hobby.

                    It's interesting if you look
                    at some pics of the H.I.s at
                    Retreats or at their H.I. Meetings
                    you might notice there are
                    many elderly (70 years plus)
                    H.I.s. Those age 60 and older
                    probably make up 75% of
                    the total number of EK Higher
                    Initiates.

                    Klemp, by slowing down initiations
                    and placing the glass ceiling
                    on the 7th has discouraged
                    many H.I.s. Of course there
                    are some 8ths and a few 9ths
                    but these numbers are nowhere
                    what they should be and don't
                    reflect the dogma or goals of
                    Twitchell. The frustration with
                    Klemp's stinginess in doling
                    out initiations via his narcissism
                    has done more harm to Eckankar
                    maintaining membership numbers
                    than any of their PR tactics have
                    been able to compensated for.

                    Yet, many EKists refuse to see
                    this reality and hold Klemp
                    responsible. HK's ploy is telling
                    them that it's all a "test" and
                    to be patient and detached
                    when, in truth, it's all a "trap."

                    There are many 7ths who have
                    had their 7th Initiation for 25
                    years! Why? Klemp is playing
                    with them and they've got too
                    much time, energy, money, status,
                    EK friends and history invested
                    to leave. It's all they know. It's
                    pitiful, and the longer and higher
                    they are the less free they are.
                    But, they are good actors and,
                    like Klemp, have learned how
                    to play the game... follow the
                    leader.

                    Prometheus

                    Janice wrote:
                    Thank all of you for the interesting reading. I think it would be cool if klemp keeps tightening the screws. Hopefully, it will only drive more away. So many of you had a lot more time than I did in eckankar. I really had a hard time dealing with HI attitudes from day one. Reading what you have to say explains a lot of things for me. I appreciate it very much.

                    Non ekchains wrote:
                    It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                    Non ;)

                    prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello All,
                    > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                    > Letter I've read that
                    > Klemp still needs to
                    > update his Guidelines
                    > for the H.I.s in the
                    > field and chastise
                    > those who are slow
                    > to get with the program.
                    >
                    > Many long-time H.I.s
                    > want the freedom
                    > of Soul to be more
                    > individualistic,
                    > spontaneous, and
                    > creative by thinking
                    > they (Soul) can operate
                    > outside-of-the-box,
                    > thus, being channels
                    > for the ECK. Klemp
                    > has previously stated
                    > that he's imperfect,
                    > but that's not the case
                    > with the ECK, correct?
                    >
                    > Why, then, shouldn't
                    > their current (Present)
                    > Inner EK Guidance be
                    > followed versus that
                    > of outer set-in-stone
                    > ESC Guidelines printed
                    > in the Past and approved
                    > by a committee of imperfect
                    > people on a plane ruled
                    > by the KAL?
                    >
                    > H.I.s still haven't learned
                    > that it doesn't work
                    > that way in Klemp's
                    > version of ECKankar.
                    > It's a hierarchy where
                    > everything is spelled
                    > out and controlled
                    > by him and his secret
                    > RESA police and that
                    > all field work must be
                    > approved of first and
                    > follow the current
                    > Guidelines.
                    >
                    > Many inexperienced
                    > EKists like the idea of
                    > being told how to do
                    > this or that and what
                    > approved books to use
                    > and what to say and
                    > other details to make
                    > the promotion of
                    > Eckankar easier.
                    >
                    > But the real point the
                    > ESC (Klemp) is making
                    > is to have EK PR more
                    > consistent and cookie
                    > cutter looking/sounding
                    > for the public.
                    >
                    > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                    > are like following a
                    > recipe set-in-stone
                    > that disregards individual
                    > or regional tastes and
                    > disallows any additions
                    > or omissions of other
                    > ingredients, methods,
                    > and/or spices.
                    >
                    > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                    > are about H.I.s resisting
                    > change. They "rock the
                    > boat" out of "fear" and
                    > that's "it's all about fear."
                    > That "they huddle in packs"
                    > and "reinforce in each other
                    > a group's opposition to
                    > anything new." Strange
                    > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                    > subject to fear since he's
                    > supposed to protect them!
                    >
                    > However, the real 'change'
                    > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                    > Klemp's nonsense and
                    > heavy handed control tactics.
                    > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                    > the Freedom of Soul versus
                    > being bound to dogma.
                    > HK side-steps delivering
                    > on his promises of protection
                    > and never has anything
                    > profound to share. And,
                    > where are those Higher
                    > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                    > yardsticks in measuring
                    > Consciousness and Spiritual
                    > Growth? Klemp is playing
                    > the long-con and is, thus,
                    > stingy and self-serving.
                    >
                    > Harold goes on to say that
                    > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                    > on the path to God instead
                    > of being stepping stones."
                    > Apparently, being creative
                    > and spontaneous and
                    > following "Inner Nudges"
                    > and/or "Signs" are not
                    > permitted if it conflicts
                    > with the LEM's outer,
                    > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                    >
                    > The LEM states that, "We
                    > are here to learn." However,
                    > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                    > from others since he never
                    > listens? He's the Top goD
                    > and doesn't partake in
                    > two-way dialogues with
                    > those under his authority.
                    >
                    > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                    > and unloving as he continues
                    > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                    > believe that if they sit still
                    > and breathe only enough to
                    > sustain life that they may
                    > well dodge the lightning
                    > strikes of irksome change."
                    > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                    > like KAL! However, by doing
                    > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                    > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                    > Don't EKists still die of all
                    > sorts of illnesses and situations
                    > that could have be averted
                    > if they had gotten proper
                    > and immediate care? Sure!
                    > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                    > ECKists and his veiled threats
                    > are meaningless... unless
                    > you've given this Black
                    > Magician power over you!
                    >
                    > But, it seems that HK
                    > has something else stuck
                    > in his craw. It seems to
                    > me that Klemp doesn't
                    > like his 7ths just sitting
                    > still and Contemplating
                    > or HUing, and enjoying
                    > life. But why shouldn't
                    > they take it easy after
                    > 40 years of doing PR
                    > work for Eckankar!
                    >
                    > So, what does Klemp
                    > the All compassionate,
                    > loving, positive, and
                    > empathetic icon of EK
                    > conclude?
                    >
                    > "An H.I. who blatantly
                    > refuses to adhere to
                    > the ECK Guidelines
                    > needs to be addressed
                    > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                    > I wonder what that
                    > really means? Well,
                    > unless you're already
                    > a 7th you can kiss that
                    > next initiation good-bye
                    > for like 10-20 years!
                    >
                    > Klemp continues to say,
                    > "These are big stakes!
                    > Continued refusal means
                    > it's time for a replacement
                    > to step in. A change is
                    > due. Change. isn't it
                    > funny how we have come
                    > full circle?" No! It's not
                    > really funny. Klemp
                    > abuses the concept
                    > of "change" and makes
                    > it into a misnomer.
                    >
                    > What "changes" are there
                    > in Eckankar? The same
                    > old things are merely
                    > revisited, updated, dusted
                    > off and made to seem
                    > "new." It's all a facade,
                    > smoke and mirrors, and
                    > a game of pretend by
                    > creating brightly colored
                    > straws to grab at and
                    > cling to when drowning.
                    >
                    > Too bad that EKists are
                    > so deluded and needy
                    > and aren't able to read
                    > between the lines and
                    > see the real truth behind
                    > Klemp's words and methods.
                    >
                    > Prometheus

                  • Janice Pfeiffer
                    I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn t help but think where is the Love .  But I was
                    Message 9 of 25 , Dec 13, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn't help but think "where is the Love".  But I was willing to think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly spiritually advanced people could not be unloving.  They would say awful things about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu sings and such like they were all good buddies.  I am a loyal type person to those who are my friends and those I think well of.  I could not understand these things coming from so called well developed people.  I even think a male that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at times although I don't know that to be a fact.  Also, some of the other females would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group.  I got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very disrespectful.  I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I could not form friendships with any of them.  It was what I read that held me in eckankar.  The quality of the people in the center was terrible.  It bothered me so bad that I sought a spiritual session.  I told the adviser what I was thinking.  Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself shocking.  She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and she preferred not to be involved with their activities.  It only made me feel more confused as a fairly new person.  I would perform tasks anytime I was asked but I started avoiding the center also.  Finally, seeing the truth about the teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away.  I decided that being a long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion.  it seems they open their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no matter who it was about.  Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be what they were.  It was crazy; all of it. 
                      --- On Thu, 12/13/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                      From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                      To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 2:03 PM

                       
                      I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

                      There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

                      Russ




                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                       
                      Hello Non eckchains and All,
                      What has me ROFLMAO is
                      that Klemp has enough of
                      a problem that he used it
                      in the ASK The MASTER
                      section of the H.I. Letter!
                      And, it was the only question!
                      They had, supposedly, an
                      H.I. write-in and point out
                      the problem. No name given.

                      I remember when I had
                      to deal with some older
                      H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                      coordinator and director
                      positions and it was
                      impossible to get this
                      one to follow the Guidelines
                      on EK Worship Services
                      (EWS). Many long-time
                      H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                      Guidelines and my
                      RESA turned a blind-
                      eye to it all. We had
                      so many former RESAs
                      in volunteer positions
                      that it was impossible
                      to get them on the
                      same page and to follow
                      procedures. I think
                      that some were just
                      burned out and tired
                      of Klemp's B.S. but
                      didn't want to leave.
                      Maybe they had too
                      many friendships to
                      lose. Plus, let's face
                      it. A lot of these people
                      are losers in the real
                      world but are big shots
                      in Eckankar. Those
                      Higher Initiations are
                      a big deal to the ego!

                      Prometheus


                      "Non" eckchains wrote:
                      It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                      don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                      offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                      over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                      even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                      Non ;)

                      prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello All,
                      > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                      > Letter I've read that
                      > Klemp still needs to
                      > update his Guidelines
                      > for the H.I.s in the
                      > field and chastise
                      > those who are slow
                      > to get with the program.
                      >
                      > Many long-time H.I.s
                      > want the freedom
                      > of Soul to be more
                      > individualistic,
                      > spontaneous, and
                      > creative by thinking
                      > they (Soul) can operate
                      > outside-of-the-box,
                      > thus, being channels
                      > for the ECK. Klemp
                      > has previously stated
                      > that he's imperfect,
                      > but that's not the case
                      > with the ECK, correct?
                      >
                      > Why, then, shouldn't
                      > their current (Present)
                      > Inner EK Guidance be
                      > followed versus that
                      > of outer set-in-stone
                      > ESC Guidelines printed
                      > in the Past and approved
                      > by a committee of imperfect
                      > people on a plane ruled
                      > by the KAL?
                      >
                      > H.I.s still haven't learned
                      > that freedom of expression
                      > doesn't work in Klemp's
                      > version of ECKankar.
                      > It's a hierarchy where
                      > everything is spelled
                      > out and controlled
                      > by him and his secret
                      > RESA police, plus, all
                      > field work must be
                      > approved via the
                      > current Guidelines.
                      >
                      > Many inexperienced
                      > EKists like the idea of
                      > being told how to do
                      > this or that and what
                      > approved books to use
                      > and what to say and
                      > other details to make
                      > the promotion of
                      > Eckankar easier.
                      >
                      > But the real point the
                      > ESC (Klemp) is making
                      > is to have EK PR more
                      > consistent and cookie
                      > cutter looking/sounding
                      > for the public.
                      >
                      > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                      > are like following a
                      > recipe set-in-stone
                      > that disregards individual
                      > or regional tastes and
                      > disallows any additions
                      > or omissions of other
                      > ingredients, methods,
                      > and/or spices.
                      >
                      > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                      > are about H.I.s resisting
                      > change. He says they "rock
                      > the boat" out of "fear" and
                      > that "it's all about fear."
                      > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                      > and "reinforce in each other
                      > a group's opposition to
                      > anything new." Strange
                      > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                      > subject to fear since he's
                      > supposed to protect them!
                      > This is how the KAL works.
                      > Klemp is his agent.
                      >
                      > However, the real 'change'
                      > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                      > Klemp's nonsense and
                      > heavy handed control tactics.
                      > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                      > the Freedom of Soul versus
                      > being bound to dogma.
                      > HK side-steps delivering
                      > on his promises of protection
                      > and never has anything
                      > profound to share. And,
                      > where are those Higher
                      > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                      > yardsticks in measuring
                      > Consciousness and Spiritual
                      > Growth? Klemp is playing
                      > the long-con and is, thus,
                      > stingy and self-serving.
                      >
                      > Harold goes on to say that
                      > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                      > on the path to God instead
                      > of being stepping stones."
                      > Apparently, being creative
                      > and spontaneous and
                      > following "Inner Nudges"
                      > and/or "Signs" are not
                      > permitted if it conflicts
                      > with the LEM's outer,
                      > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                      >
                      > The LEM states that, "We
                      > are here to learn." However,
                      > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                      > from others since he never
                      > listens? He's the Top goD
                      > and doesn't partake in
                      > two-way dialogues with
                      > those under his authority.
                      >
                      > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                      > and unloving as he continues
                      > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                      > believe that if they sit still
                      > and breathe only enough to
                      > sustain life that they may
                      > well dodge the lightning
                      > strikes of irksome change."
                      > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                      > like KAL! However, by doing
                      > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                      > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                      > Don't EKists still die of all
                      > sorts of illnesses and situations
                      > that could have be averted
                      > if they had gotten proper
                      > and immediate care? Sure!
                      > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                      > ECKists and his veiled threats
                      > are meaningless... unless
                      > you've given this Black
                      > Magician power over you!
                      >
                      > But, it seems that HK
                      > has something else stuck
                      > in his craw. It seems to
                      > me that Klemp doesn't
                      > like his 7ths just sitting
                      > still and Contemplating
                      > or HUing, and enjoying
                      > life. But why shouldn't
                      > they take it easy after
                      > 40 years of doing PR
                      > work for Eckankar!
                      >
                      > So, what does Klemp
                      > the All compassionate,
                      > loving, positive, and
                      > empathetic icon of EK
                      > conclude?
                      >
                      > "An H.I. who blatantly
                      > refuses to adhere to
                      > the ECK Guidelines
                      > needs to be addressed
                      > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                      > I wonder what that
                      > really means? Well,
                      > unless you're already
                      > a 7th you can kiss that
                      > next initiation good-bye
                      > for like 10-20 years!
                      >
                      > Klemp continues to say,
                      > "These are big stakes!
                      > Continued refusal means
                      > it's time for a replacement
                      > to step in. A change is
                      > due. Change. isn't it
                      > funny how we have come
                      > full circle?" No! It's not
                      > really funny. Klemp
                      > abuses the concept
                      > of "change" and makes
                      > it into a misnomer.
                      >
                      > What "changes" are there
                      > in Eckankar? The same
                      > old things are merely
                      > revisited, updated, dusted
                      > off and made to seem
                      > "new." It's all a facade,
                      > smoke and mirrors, and
                      > a game of pretend by
                      > creating brightly colored
                      > straws to grab at and
                      > cling to when drowning.
                      >
                      > Too bad that EKists are
                      > so deluded and needy
                      > and aren't able to read
                      > between the lines and
                      > see the real truth behind
                      > Klemp's words and methods.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >



                    • Russ Rodnick
                      You ve seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a very
                      Message 10 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
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                        You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love. 

                        Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers. 

                        Good to be away from it. 


                        From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 10:42 PM
                        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                         
                        I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn't help but think "where is the Love".  But I was willing to think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly spiritually advanced people could not be unloving.  They would say awful things about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu sings and such like they were all good buddies.  I am a loyal type person to those who are my friends and those I think well of.  I could not understand these things coming from so called well developed people.  I even think a male that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at times although I don't know that to be a fact.  Also, some of the other females would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group.  I got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very disrespectful.  I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I could not form friendships with any of them.  It was what I read that held me in eckankar.  The quality of the people in the center was terrible.  It bothered me so bad that I sought a spiritual session.  I told the adviser what I was thinking.  Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself shocking.  She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and she preferred not to be involved with their activities.  It only made me feel more confused as a fairly new person.  I would perform tasks anytime I was asked but I started avoiding the center also.  Finally, seeing the truth about the teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away.  I decided that being a long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion.  it seems they open their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no matter who it was about.  Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be what they were.  It was crazy; all of it. 
                        --- On Thu, 12/13/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                        From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                        To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 2:03 PM

                         
                        I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

                        There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

                        Russ




                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                         
                        Hello Non eckchains and All,
                        What has me ROFLMAO is
                        that Klemp has enough of
                        a problem that he used it
                        in the ASK The MASTER
                        section of the H.I. Letter!
                        And, it was the only question!
                        They had, supposedly, an
                        H.I. write-in and point out
                        the problem. No name given.

                        I remember when I had
                        to deal with some older
                        H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                        coordinator and director
                        positions and it was
                        impossible to get this
                        one to follow the Guidelines
                        on EK Worship Services
                        (EWS). Many long-time
                        H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                        Guidelines and my
                        RESA turned a blind-
                        eye to it all. We had
                        so many former RESAs
                        in volunteer positions
                        that it was impossible
                        to get them on the
                        same page and to follow
                        procedures. I think
                        that some were just
                        burned out and tired
                        of Klemp's B.S. but
                        didn't want to leave.
                        Maybe they had too
                        many friendships to
                        lose. Plus, let's face
                        it. A lot of these people
                        are losers in the real
                        world but are big shots
                        in Eckankar. Those
                        Higher Initiations are
                        a big deal to the ego!

                        Prometheus


                        "Non" eckchains wrote:
                        It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                        don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                        offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                        over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                        even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                        Non ;)

                        prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello All,
                        > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                        > Letter I've read that
                        > Klemp still needs to
                        > update his Guidelines
                        > for the H.I.s in the
                        > field and chastise
                        > those who are slow
                        > to get with the program.
                        >
                        > Many long-time H.I.s
                        > want the freedom
                        > of Soul to be more
                        > individualistic,
                        > spontaneous, and
                        > creative by thinking
                        > they (Soul) can operate
                        > outside-of-the-box,
                        > thus, being channels
                        > for the ECK. Klemp
                        > has previously stated
                        > that he's imperfect,
                        > but that's not the case
                        > with the ECK, correct?
                        >
                        > Why, then, shouldn't
                        > their current (Present)
                        > Inner EK Guidance be
                        > followed versus that
                        > of outer set-in-stone
                        > ESC Guidelines printed
                        > in the Past and approved
                        > by a committee of imperfect
                        > people on a plane ruled
                        > by the KAL?
                        >
                        > H.I.s still haven't learned
                        > that freedom of expression
                        > doesn't work in Klemp's
                        > version of ECKankar.
                        > It's a hierarchy where
                        > everything is spelled
                        > out and controlled
                        > by him and his secret
                        > RESA police, plus, all
                        > field work must be
                        > approved via the
                        > current Guidelines.
                        >
                        > Many inexperienced
                        > EKists like the idea of
                        > being told how to do
                        > this or that and what
                        > approved books to use
                        > and what to say and
                        > other details to make
                        > the promotion of
                        > Eckankar easier.
                        >
                        > But the real point the
                        > ESC (Klemp) is making
                        > is to have EK PR more
                        > consistent and cookie
                        > cutter looking/sounding
                        > for the public.
                        >
                        > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                        > are like following a
                        > recipe set-in-stone
                        > that disregards individual
                        > or regional tastes and
                        > disallows any additions
                        > or omissions of other
                        > ingredients, methods,
                        > and/or spices.
                        >
                        > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                        > are about H.I.s resisting
                        > change. He says they "rock
                        > the boat" out of "fear" and
                        > that "it's all about fear."
                        > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                        > and "reinforce in each other
                        > a group's opposition to
                        > anything new." Strange
                        > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                        > subject to fear since he's
                        > supposed to protect them!
                        > This is how the KAL works.
                        > Klemp is his agent.
                        >
                        > However, the real 'change'
                        > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                        > Klemp's nonsense and
                        > heavy handed control tactics.
                        > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                        > the Freedom of Soul versus
                        > being bound to dogma.
                        > HK side-steps delivering
                        > on his promises of protection
                        > and never has anything
                        > profound to share. And,
                        > where are those Higher
                        > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                        > yardsticks in measuring
                        > Consciousness and Spiritual
                        > Growth? Klemp is playing
                        > the long-con and is, thus,
                        > stingy and self-serving.
                        >
                        > Harold goes on to say that
                        > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                        > on the path to God instead
                        > of being stepping stones."
                        > Apparently, being creative
                        > and spontaneous and
                        > following "Inner Nudges"
                        > and/or "Signs" are not
                        > permitted if it conflicts
                        > with the LEM's outer,
                        > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                        >
                        > The LEM states that, "We
                        > are here to learn." However,
                        > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                        > from others since he never
                        > listens? He's the Top goD
                        > and doesn't partake in
                        > two-way dialogues with
                        > those under his authority.
                        >
                        > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                        > and unloving as he continues
                        > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                        > believe that if they sit still
                        > and breathe only enough to
                        > sustain life that they may
                        > well dodge the lightning
                        > strikes of irksome change."
                        > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                        > like KAL! However, by doing
                        > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                        > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                        > Don't EKists still die of all
                        > sorts of illnesses and situations
                        > that could have be averted
                        > if they had gotten proper
                        > and immediate care? Sure!
                        > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                        > ECKists and his veiled threats
                        > are meaningless... unless
                        > you've given this Black
                        > Magician power over you!
                        >
                        > But, it seems that HK
                        > has something else stuck
                        > in his craw. It seems to
                        > me that Klemp doesn't
                        > like his 7ths just sitting
                        > still and Contemplating
                        > or HUing, and enjoying
                        > life. But why shouldn't
                        > they take it easy after
                        > 40 years of doing PR
                        > work for Eckankar!
                        >
                        > So, what does Klemp
                        > the All compassionate,
                        > loving, positive, and
                        > empathetic icon of EK
                        > conclude?
                        >
                        > "An H.I. who blatantly
                        > refuses to adhere to
                        > the ECK Guidelines
                        > needs to be addressed
                        > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                        > I wonder what that
                        > really means? Well,
                        > unless you're already
                        > a 7th you can kiss that
                        > next initiation good-bye
                        > for like 10-20 years!
                        >
                        > Klemp continues to say,
                        > "These are big stakes!
                        > Continued refusal means
                        > it's time for a replacement
                        > to step in. A change is
                        > due. Change. isn't it
                        > funny how we have come
                        > full circle?" No! It's not
                        > really funny. Klemp
                        > abuses the concept
                        > of "change" and makes
                        > it into a misnomer.
                        >
                        > What "changes" are there
                        > in Eckankar? The same
                        > old things are merely
                        > revisited, updated, dusted
                        > off and made to seem
                        > "new." It's all a facade,
                        > smoke and mirrors, and
                        > a game of pretend by
                        > creating brightly colored
                        > straws to grab at and
                        > cling to when drowning.
                        >
                        > Too bad that EKists are
                        > so deluded and needy
                        > and aren't able to read
                        > between the lines and
                        > see the real truth behind
                        > Klemp's words and methods.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >





                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Janice, Russ and All, Yes, some EK Volunteers in Satsang Society settler and explorer positions at the EK Centers would trip over their egos and go
                        Message 11 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
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                          Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                          Yes, some EK Volunteers
                          in Satsang Society "settler"
                          and "explorer" positions at
                          the EK Centers would trip
                          over their egos and go on
                          power trips. Many seemed
                          cliquish and would huddle
                          together. Then, again, some
                          weren't all that friendly or
                          were very introverted and
                          shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                          including the clerics, to
                          greet and talk to all of the
                          new or seldom seen faces
                          that showed up. Many
                          only saw other Eckists at
                          the monthly EWS and this
                          was a time to catch up on
                          things. This is why I'd
                          suggest going to lunch
                          after the EWS and socializing.

                          Many Eckists are Introverts.
                          True? I think so!

                          Klemp's volunteer duties
                          and requirements for Eckists
                          means that they must take
                          on extroverted roles in
                          order to become H.I.s.
                          Eckists must force themselves,
                          against their innate natures,
                          to become extroverted and
                          egocentric. These leadership
                          requirements create conflict,
                          stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                          Thus, this imbalance that
                          Klemp has created and
                          reenforces aids him in
                          the brainwashing of his
                          flock to have programmed
                          religious faith, beliefs, and
                          mystical experiences. But,
                          this has its toll and is why
                          many long-time H.I.s choose
                          to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                          and his anal control tactics.

                          Sometimes, at special
                          harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                          and mini retreats the
                          long-time H.I.s, former
                          RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                          members would gather
                          around and gossip about
                          those absent or present.
                          Only, it wasn't seen as
                          gossip but rationalized
                          as more of an evaluative/
                          investigative discussion
                          for possible initiation
                          recommendation or for
                          a Satsang position appointment.
                          They wanted to know,
                          from sources who knew
                          them, if there were problems
                          with these EKists and, if
                          so, what the specific details
                          were. It was all ego driven
                          and subjective because we
                          were all volunteers and
                          had family and personal
                          lives too. But, it did weed
                          out those who weren't as
                          well indoctrinated....
                          supposedly. But, HK's eck
                          crap (busy work) was pretty
                          much always a waste of
                          time so, in the long run,
                          enthusiasm was probably
                          more important than acting
                          the part. The Satsang positions
                          and duties kept people
                          busy, gave them a purpose
                          and made them feel good,
                          although, very stressed out.

                          The Initiation game has made
                          Eckists struggle with denying
                          how much more they want of
                          this magical, imaginary, elixir.

                          Janice, that was crazy, too,
                          that an ESA told you that the
                          people at the EK Center were
                          crazy. That just isn't done
                          and is part of HK's agenda
                          of Silence and retraining.

                          There's that old Buddha quote
                          that Eckists sing and talk about
                          (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                          and this is supposed to keep
                          ECKists quiet or else they will
                          sometimes get reported:
                          "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                          this I ask myself before I
                          speak my mind." Interestingly,
                          following this criteria is very
                          subjective and could or would
                          Not, necessarily, stifle most
                          conservations.

                          "It's a beautiful day!" This
                          may be "true" for you and
                          for most people but not
                          not for all people. And, is
                          it "necessary" to exclaim
                          this? And, is it "kind" to say
                          this within earshot of people
                          who aren't feeling well or
                          who can't enjoy the day?
                          Yet, it's used by Klemp
                          to keep the critics of his
                          policies and of his H.I.s
                          to a minimum.

                          Prometheus


                          Russ Rodnick wrote:
                          You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                          considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                          very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                          over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                          by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                          to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                          very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                          rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                          handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.

                          Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                          communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.

                          Good to be away from it.

                          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                          I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                          beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                          think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                          spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                          about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                          sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                          those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                          these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                          that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                          times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                          would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                          got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                          her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                          thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                          disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                          could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                          eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                          so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                          thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                          shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                          she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                          more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                          but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                          teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                          long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                          their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                          matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                          what they were. It was crazy; all of it.

                          Russ wrote:
                          I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                          fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                          up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                          made him so popular in the eck community.

                          There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                          self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                          present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                          things.

                          Russ



                          prometheus wrote:
                          Hello Non eckchains and All,
                          What has me ROFLMAO is
                          that Klemp has enough of
                          a problem that he used it
                          in the ASK The MASTER
                          section of the H.I. Letter!
                          And, it was the only question!
                          They had, supposedly, an
                          H.I. write-in and point out
                          the problem. No name given.

                          I remember when I had
                          to deal with some older
                          H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                          coordinator and director
                          positions and it was
                          impossible to get this
                          one to follow the Guidelines
                          on EK Worship Services
                          (EWS). Many long-time
                          H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                          Guidelines and my
                          RESA turned a blind-
                          eye to it all. We had
                          so many former RESAs
                          in volunteer positions
                          that it was impossible
                          to get them on the
                          same page and to follow
                          procedures. I think
                          that some were just
                          burned out and tired
                          of Klemp's B.S. but
                          didn't want to leave.
                          Maybe they had too
                          many friendships to
                          lose. Plus, let's face
                          it. A lot of these people
                          are losers in the real
                          world but are big shots
                          in Eckankar. Those
                          Higher Initiations are
                          a big deal to the ego!

                          Prometheus


                          "Non" eckchains wrote:
                          It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                          don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                          offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                          over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                          even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                          Non ;)

                          prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello All,
                          > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                          > Letter I've read that
                          > Klemp still needs to
                          > update his Guidelines
                          > for the H.I.s in the
                          > field and chastise
                          > those who are slow
                          > to get with the program.
                          >
                          > Many long-time H.I.s
                          > want the freedom
                          > of Soul to be more
                          > individualistic,
                          > spontaneous, and
                          > creative by thinking
                          > they (Soul) can operate
                          > outside-of-the-box,
                          > thus, being channels
                          > for the ECK. Klemp
                          > has previously stated
                          > that he's imperfect,
                          > but that's not the case
                          > with the ECK, correct?
                          >
                          > Why, then, shouldn't
                          > their current (Present)
                          > Inner EK Guidance be
                          > followed versus that
                          > of outer set-in-stone
                          > ESC Guidelines printed
                          > in the Past and approved
                          > by a committee of imperfect
                          > people on a plane ruled
                          > by the KAL?
                          >
                          > H.I.s still haven't learned
                          > that freedom of expression
                          > doesn't work in Klemp's
                          > version of ECKankar.
                          > It's a hierarchy where
                          > everything is spelled
                          > out and controlled
                          > by him and his secret
                          > RESA police, plus, all
                          > field work must be
                          > approved via the
                          > current Guidelines.
                          >
                          > Many inexperienced
                          > EKists like the idea of
                          > being told how to do
                          > this or that and what
                          > approved books to use
                          > and what to say and
                          > other details to make
                          > the promotion of
                          > Eckankar easier.
                          >
                          > But the real point the
                          > ESC (Klemp) is making
                          > is to have EK PR more
                          > consistent and cookie
                          > cutter looking/sounding
                          > for the public.
                          >
                          > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                          > are like following a
                          > recipe set-in-stone
                          > that disregards individual
                          > or regional tastes and
                          > disallows any additions
                          > or omissions of other
                          > ingredients, methods,
                          > and/or spices.
                          >
                          > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                          > are about H.I.s resisting
                          > change. He says they "rock
                          > the boat" out of "fear" and
                          > that "it's all about fear."
                          > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                          > and "reinforce in each other
                          > a group's opposition to
                          > anything new." Strange
                          > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                          > subject to fear since he's
                          > supposed to protect them!
                          > This is how the KAL works.
                          > Klemp is his agent.
                          >
                          > However, the real 'change'
                          > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                          > Klemp's nonsense and
                          > heavy handed control tactics.
                          > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                          > the Freedom of Soul versus
                          > being bound to dogma.
                          > HK side-steps delivering
                          > on his promises of protection
                          > and never has anything
                          > profound to share. And,
                          > where are those Higher
                          > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                          > yardsticks in measuring
                          > Consciousness and Spiritual
                          > Growth? Klemp is playing
                          > the long-con and is, thus,
                          > stingy and self-serving.
                          >
                          > Harold goes on to say that
                          > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                          > on the path to God instead
                          > of being stepping stones."
                          > Apparently, being creative
                          > and spontaneous and
                          > following "Inner Nudges"
                          > and/or "Signs" are not
                          > permitted if it conflicts
                          > with the LEM's outer,
                          > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                          >
                          > The LEM states that, "We
                          > are here to learn." However,
                          > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                          > from others since he never
                          > listens? He's the Top goD
                          > and doesn't partake in
                          > two-way dialogues with
                          > those under his authority.
                          >
                          > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                          > and unloving as he continues
                          > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                          > believe that if they sit still
                          > and breathe only enough to
                          > sustain life that they may
                          > well dodge the lightning
                          > strikes of irksome change."
                          > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                          > like KAL! However, by doing
                          > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                          > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                          > Don't EKists still die of all
                          > sorts of illnesses and situations
                          > that could have be averted
                          > if they had gotten proper
                          > and immediate care? Sure!
                          > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                          > ECKists and his veiled threats
                          > are meaningless... unless
                          > you've given this Black
                          > Magician power over you!
                          >
                          > But, it seems that HK
                          > has something else stuck
                          > in his craw. It seems to
                          > me that Klemp doesn't
                          > like his 7ths just sitting
                          > still and Contemplating
                          > or HUing, and enjoying
                          > life. But why shouldn't
                          > they take it easy after
                          > 40 years of doing PR
                          > work for Eckankar!
                          >
                          > So, what does Klemp
                          > the All compassionate,
                          > loving, positive, and
                          > empathetic icon of EK
                          > conclude?
                          >
                          > "An H.I. who blatantly
                          > refuses to adhere to
                          > the ECK Guidelines
                          > needs to be addressed
                          > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                          > I wonder what that
                          > really means? Well,
                          > unless you're already
                          > a 7th you can kiss that
                          > next initiation good-bye
                          > for like 10-20 years!
                          >
                          > Klemp continues to say,
                          > "These are big stakes!
                          > Continued refusal means
                          > it's time for a replacement
                          > to step in. A change is
                          > due. Change. isn't it
                          > funny how we have come
                          > full circle?" No! It's not
                          > really funny. Klemp
                          > abuses the concept
                          > of "change" and makes
                          > it into a misnomer.
                          >
                          > What "changes" are there
                          > in Eckankar? The same
                          > old things are merely
                          > revisited, updated, dusted
                          > off and made to seem
                          > "new." It's all a facade,
                          > smoke and mirrors, and
                          > a game of pretend by
                          > creating brightly colored
                          > straws to grab at and
                          > cling to when drowning.
                          >
                          > Too bad that EKists are
                          > so deluded and needy
                          > and aren't able to read
                          > between the lines and
                          > see the real truth behind
                          > Klemp's words and methods.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                        • Janice Pfeiffer
                          I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off.  So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                          Message 12 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
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                            I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off.  So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar.  I can't see it happening.  The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people. 
                             
                            Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get.  Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations. 
                             
                             I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was.  I just broke contact.  I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me.  I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all. 
                             
                            Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold.  It went in the trash.  This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone.  I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even. 
                             
                            How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else.  From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder.  Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.  Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org.  That is what is so sick about eckankar.  You either become a sheep or a wolf.  I wouldn't be either. 
                             
                            That is why I could not adjust to eckankar.  Seeing it was a freeing experience for me.  It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings.  I threw away all eckankar material.  I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others.  Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar.  Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top.  I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did. 
                             
                            The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving.  I feel pity for them.  A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time.  I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies. 
                             
                            Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth.  Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor.  I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me.  I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being.  Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth.  In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads. 
                             
                            I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual.  No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way.  Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate.  With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this. 
                             
                             I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much.  But maybe it  has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing  their brand of spiritual bondage.  And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord.  Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime. 
                             
                            I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones.  Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar.  I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will. 
                             
                            Eckankar can damn me all it will.  It has no hold on me.  It's even funny that they would do that.  They make a good force for their kal.  Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing.  Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned.  It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things. 
                             
                            Thank you all for being part of my journey.  You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself.  Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar.  That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master.  I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were.  Well, now you are. 
                             
                            Blessings to all of you.   
                             
                            --- On Fri, 12/14/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                            From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                            To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                            Date: Friday, December 14, 2012, 2:49 PM

                             
                            You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love. 

                            Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers. 

                            Good to be away from it. 


                            From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 10:42 PM
                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                             
                            I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the beginning.  I couldn't help but think "where is the Love".  But I was willing to think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly spiritually advanced people could not be unloving.  They would say awful things about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu sings and such like they were all good buddies.  I am a loyal type person to those who are my friends and those I think well of.  I could not understand these things coming from so called well developed people.  I even think a male that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at times although I don't know that to be a fact.  Also, some of the other females would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group.  I got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very disrespectful.  I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I could not form friendships with any of them.  It was what I read that held me in eckankar.  The quality of the people in the center was terrible.  It bothered me so bad that I sought a spiritual session.  I told the adviser what I was thinking.  Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself shocking.  She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and she preferred not to be involved with their activities.  It only made me feel more confused as a fairly new person.  I would perform tasks anytime I was asked but I started avoiding the center also.  Finally, seeing the truth about the teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away.  I decided that being a long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion.  it seems they open their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no matter who it was about.  Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be what they were.  It was crazy; all of it. 
                            --- On Thu, 12/13/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                            From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                            To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                            Date: Thursday, December 13, 2012, 2:03 PM

                             
                            I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what made him so popular in the eck community. 

                            There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other things. 

                            Russ




                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:35 AM
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                             
                            Hello Non eckchains and All,
                            What has me ROFLMAO is
                            that Klemp has enough of
                            a problem that he used it
                            in the ASK The MASTER
                            section of the H.I. Letter!
                            And, it was the only question!
                            They had, supposedly, an
                            H.I. write-in and point out
                            the problem. No name given.

                            I remember when I had
                            to deal with some older
                            H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                            coordinator and director
                            positions and it was
                            impossible to get this
                            one to follow the Guidelines
                            on EK Worship Services
                            (EWS). Many long-time
                            H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                            Guidelines and my
                            RESA turned a blind-
                            eye to it all. We had
                            so many former RESAs
                            in volunteer positions
                            that it was impossible
                            to get them on the
                            same page and to follow
                            procedures. I think
                            that some were just
                            burned out and tired
                            of Klemp's B.S. but
                            didn't want to leave.
                            Maybe they had too
                            many friendships to
                            lose. Plus, let's face
                            it. A lot of these people
                            are losers in the real
                            world but are big shots
                            in Eckankar. Those
                            Higher Initiations are
                            a big deal to the ego!

                            Prometheus


                            "Non" eckchains wrote:
                            It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                            don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                            offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                            over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                            even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)

                            Non ;)

                            prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello All,
                            > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                            > Letter I've read that
                            > Klemp still needs to
                            > update his Guidelines
                            > for the H.I.s in the
                            > field and chastise
                            > those who are slow
                            > to get with the program.
                            >
                            > Many long-time H.I.s
                            > want the freedom
                            > of Soul to be more
                            > individualistic,
                            > spontaneous, and
                            > creative by thinking
                            > they (Soul) can operate
                            > outside-of-the-box,
                            > thus, being channels
                            > for the ECK. Klemp
                            > has previously stated
                            > that he's imperfect,
                            > but that's not the case
                            > with the ECK, correct?
                            >
                            > Why, then, shouldn't
                            > their current (Present)
                            > Inner EK Guidance be
                            > followed versus that
                            > of outer set-in-stone
                            > ESC Guidelines printed
                            > in the Past and approved
                            > by a committee of imperfect
                            > people on a plane ruled
                            > by the KAL?
                            >
                            > H.I.s still haven't learned
                            > that freedom of expression
                            > doesn't work in Klemp's
                            > version of ECKankar.
                            > It's a hierarchy where
                            > everything is spelled
                            > out and controlled
                            > by him and his secret
                            > RESA police, plus, all
                            > field work must be
                            > approved via the
                            > current Guidelines.
                            >
                            > Many inexperienced
                            > EKists like the idea of
                            > being told how to do
                            > this or that and what
                            > approved books to use
                            > and what to say and
                            > other details to make
                            > the promotion of
                            > Eckankar easier.
                            >
                            > But the real point the
                            > ESC (Klemp) is making
                            > is to have EK PR more
                            > consistent and cookie
                            > cutter looking/sounding
                            > for the public.
                            >
                            > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                            > are like following a
                            > recipe set-in-stone
                            > that disregards individual
                            > or regional tastes and
                            > disallows any additions
                            > or omissions of other
                            > ingredients, methods,
                            > and/or spices.
                            >
                            > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                            > are about H.I.s resisting
                            > change. He says they "rock
                            > the boat" out of "fear" and
                            > that "it's all about fear."
                            > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                            > and "reinforce in each other
                            > a group's opposition to
                            > anything new." Strange
                            > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                            > subject to fear since he's
                            > supposed to protect them!
                            > This is how the KAL works.
                            > Klemp is his agent.
                            >
                            > However, the real 'change'
                            > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                            > Klemp's nonsense and
                            > heavy handed control tactics.
                            > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                            > the Freedom of Soul versus
                            > being bound to dogma.
                            > HK side-steps delivering
                            > on his promises of protection
                            > and never has anything
                            > profound to share. And,
                            > where are those Higher
                            > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                            > yardsticks in measuring
                            > Consciousness and Spiritual
                            > Growth? Klemp is playing
                            > the long-con and is, thus,
                            > stingy and self-serving.
                            >
                            > Harold goes on to say that
                            > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                            > on the path to God instead
                            > of being stepping stones."
                            > Apparently, being creative
                            > and spontaneous and
                            > following "Inner Nudges"
                            > and/or "Signs" are not
                            > permitted if it conflicts
                            > with the LEM's outer,
                            > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                            >
                            > The LEM states that, "We
                            > are here to learn." However,
                            > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                            > from others since he never
                            > listens? He's the Top goD
                            > and doesn't partake in
                            > two-way dialogues with
                            > those under his authority.
                            >
                            > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                            > and unloving as he continues
                            > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                            > believe that if they sit still
                            > and breathe only enough to
                            > sustain life that they may
                            > well dodge the lightning
                            > strikes of irksome change."
                            > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                            > like KAL! However, by doing
                            > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                            > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                            > Don't EKists still die of all
                            > sorts of illnesses and situations
                            > that could have be averted
                            > if they had gotten proper
                            > and immediate care? Sure!
                            > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                            > ECKists and his veiled threats
                            > are meaningless... unless
                            > you've given this Black
                            > Magician power over you!
                            >
                            > But, it seems that HK
                            > has something else stuck
                            > in his craw. It seems to
                            > me that Klemp doesn't
                            > like his 7ths just sitting
                            > still and Contemplating
                            > or HUing, and enjoying
                            > life. But why shouldn't
                            > they take it easy after
                            > 40 years of doing PR
                            > work for Eckankar!
                            >
                            > So, what does Klemp
                            > the All compassionate,
                            > loving, positive, and
                            > empathetic icon of EK
                            > conclude?
                            >
                            > "An H.I. who blatantly
                            > refuses to adhere to
                            > the ECK Guidelines
                            > needs to be addressed
                            > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                            > I wonder what that
                            > really means? Well,
                            > unless you're already
                            > a 7th you can kiss that
                            > next initiation good-bye
                            > for like 10-20 years!
                            >
                            > Klemp continues to say,
                            > "These are big stakes!
                            > Continued refusal means
                            > it's time for a replacement
                            > to step in. A change is
                            > due. Change. isn't it
                            > funny how we have come
                            > full circle?" No! It's not
                            > really funny. Klemp
                            > abuses the concept
                            > of "change" and makes
                            > it into a misnomer.
                            >
                            > What "changes" are there
                            > in Eckankar? The same
                            > old things are merely
                            > revisited, updated, dusted
                            > off and made to seem
                            > "new." It's all a facade,
                            > smoke and mirrors, and
                            > a game of pretend by
                            > creating brightly colored
                            > straws to grab at and
                            > cling to when drowning.
                            >
                            > Too bad that EKists are
                            > so deluded and needy
                            > and aren't able to read
                            > between the lines and
                            > see the real truth behind
                            > Klemp's words and methods.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >





                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello Janice, Thanks for the interesting reply and the sharing of insights and experiences. I really really enjoyed it all. The reason why someone knew you
                            Message 13 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
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                              Hello Janice,
                              Thanks for the interesting
                              reply and the sharing of
                              insights and experiences.
                              I really really enjoyed it
                              all.

                              The reason why someone
                              knew you received your
                              pink slip is because the
                              RESA gets an initiation
                              eligibility list where he/
                              she will mark yea/nay
                              for an initiation. When
                              the yea is checked the
                              ESC (membership services)
                              will more than likely issue
                              the pink slip for the initiation.
                              Or, the file has been red
                              flagged for some reason.
                              Klemp, I'm told, will put
                              a temporary hold on higher
                              initiations. Maybe it's due
                              to pending requirements
                              for training/retraining.
                              The ESC will notify the
                              RESA when the pink slip
                              is sent.

                              Most Eckists don't know
                              how the initiation process
                              works.

                              The RESA has a membership
                              list generated by the ESC
                              for all those EKists in their
                              region and it will show
                              initiation level, one's status
                              and date of membership
                              among other info. If a
                              new person sends in a
                              membership form to the
                              ESC from anywhere in
                              the RESA's region the RESA
                              will be notified of who
                              they are and their mailing
                              address.

                              I was glad Ford Johnson
                              wrote his book and that
                              I was told about it by an
                              Eckist who is still an H.I.
                              The Irony is that he was
                              doing Public Information
                              and was quite the gossip.

                              I always was the skeptic
                              and had trouble with a lot
                              of what I saw and experienced
                              around H.I.s.

                              When I was a lower initiate
                              I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                              spiritual nor anywhere close
                              to being enlightened. There
                              were too many contradictions,
                              restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                              Once you're an EK member
                              the next step is to get you
                              to become a volunteer on
                              HK's sales team.

                              I always wondered how
                              was there an "inner" connection
                              to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                              were still smoking and
                              drinking alcohol, but
                              getting promoted with
                              more initiations? I knew
                              of two 5ths who smoked
                              and drank and got pink
                              slips for the 6th. It's clear
                              that Klemp knows nothing
                              unless informed via phone
                              or snailmail... email now!

                              Yes, Janice, we were the
                              ones awakened to the Truth
                              while all of those "Higher"
                              (pretend) Initiates are still
                              sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                              become very skilled at
                              regurgitating the PR and
                              at facilitating and public
                              speaking. But, H.I.s have
                              no idea of what it's like
                              to be Free thinkers and
                              free of religion and of the
                              EK Hierarchy. They think
                              that their "spiritual experiences"
                              are unique when these
                              are common and similar
                              experiences that all religious
                              seekers have had... even
                              Christians!

                              Yes, we needed Eckankar
                              in order to fill a void and
                              to learn some important
                              lessons about ourselves
                              and about religion in general.

                              IMO, Those who left
                              Eckankar but still have
                              a need for religion, haven't
                              really learned that they
                              will never find answers
                              via a group consciousness
                              or via a guru/master.
                              True, it is nice to know
                              people of like mind and
                              to share things, but this
                              can be a bad thing as well
                              if we become too attached
                              or lazy and want to play
                              follow the leader again.

                              It all comes down to one's
                              private and personal experiences
                              and inner revelations with
                              oneSelf and with whatever
                              catalyst of "divine" creation.

                              Prometheus



                              Janice wrote:
                              I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                              Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                              I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                              Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                              How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                              That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                              The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                              Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                              I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                              I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                              I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                              Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                              Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                              Blessings to all of you.


                              prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                              > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                              > in Satsang Society "settler"
                              > and "explorer" positions at
                              > the EK Centers would trip
                              > over their egos and go on
                              > power trips. Many seemed
                              > cliquish and would huddle
                              > together. Then, again, some
                              > weren't all that friendly or
                              > were very introverted and
                              > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                              > including the clerics, to
                              > greet and talk to all of the
                              > new or seldom seen faces
                              > that showed up. Many
                              > only saw other Eckists at
                              > the monthly EWS and this
                              > was a time to catch up on
                              > things. This is why I'd
                              > suggest going to lunch
                              > after the EWS and socializing.
                              >
                              > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                              > True? I think so!
                              >
                              > Klemp's volunteer duties
                              > and requirements for Eckists
                              > means that they must take
                              > on extroverted roles in
                              > order to become H.I.s.
                              > Eckists must force themselves,
                              > against their innate natures,
                              > to become extroverted and
                              > egocentric. These leadership
                              > requirements create conflict,
                              > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                              > Thus, this imbalance that
                              > Klemp has created and
                              > reenforces aids him in
                              > the brainwashing of his
                              > flock to have programmed
                              > religious faith, beliefs, and
                              > mystical experiences. But,
                              > this has its toll and is why
                              > many long-time H.I.s choose
                              > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                              > and his anal control tactics.
                              >
                              > Sometimes, at special
                              > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                              > and mini retreats the
                              > long-time H.I.s, former
                              > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                              > members would gather
                              > around and gossip about
                              > those absent or present.
                              > Only, it wasn't seen as
                              > gossip but rationalized
                              > as more of an evaluative/
                              > investigative discussion
                              > for possible initiation
                              > recommendation or for
                              > a Satsang position appointment.
                              > They wanted to know,
                              > from sources who knew
                              > them, if there were problems
                              > with these EKists and, if
                              > so, what the specific details
                              > were. It was all ego driven
                              > and subjective because we
                              > were all volunteers and
                              > had family and personal
                              > lives too. But, it did weed
                              > out those who weren't as
                              > well indoctrinated....
                              > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                              > crap (busy work) was pretty
                              > much always a waste of
                              > time so, in the long run,
                              > enthusiasm was probably
                              > more important than acting
                              > the part. The Satsang positions
                              > and duties kept people
                              > busy, gave them a purpose
                              > and made them feel good,
                              > although, very stressed out.
                              >
                              > The Initiation game has made
                              > Eckists struggle with denying
                              > how much more they want of
                              > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                              >
                              > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                              > that an ESA told you that the
                              > people at the EK Center were
                              > crazy. That just isn't done
                              > and is part of HK's agenda
                              > of Silence and retraining.
                              >
                              > There's that old Buddha quote
                              > that Eckists sing and talk about
                              > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                              > and this is supposed to keep
                              > ECKists quiet or else they will
                              > sometimes get reported:
                              > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                              > this I ask myself before I
                              > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                              > following this criteria is very
                              > subjective and could or would
                              > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                              > conservations.
                              >
                              > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                              > may be "true" for you and
                              > for most people but not
                              > not for all people. And, is
                              > it "necessary" to exclaim
                              > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                              > this within earshot of people
                              > who aren't feeling well or
                              > who can't enjoy the day?
                              > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                              > to keep the critics of his
                              > policies and of his H.I.s
                              > to a minimum.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                              > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                              > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                              > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                              > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                              > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                              > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                              > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                              > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                              > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                              >
                              > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                              > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                              >
                              > Good to be away from it.
                              >
                              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              >
                              > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                              > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                              > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                              > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                              > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                              > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                              > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                              > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                              > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                              > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                              > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                              > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                              > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                              > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                              > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                              > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                              > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                              > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                              > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                              > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                              > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                              > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                              > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                              > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                              > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                              > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                              > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                              > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                              >
                              > Russ wrote:
                              > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                              > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                              > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                              > made him so popular in the eck community.
                              >
                              > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                              > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                              > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                              > things.
                              >
                              > Russ
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                              > What has me ROFLMAO is
                              > that Klemp has enough of
                              > a problem that he used it
                              > in the ASK The MASTER
                              > section of the H.I. Letter!
                              > And, it was the only question!
                              > They had, supposedly, an
                              > H.I. write-in and point out
                              > the problem. No name given.
                              >
                              > I remember when I had
                              > to deal with some older
                              > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                              > coordinator and director
                              > positions and it was
                              > impossible to get this
                              > one to follow the Guidelines
                              > on EK Worship Services
                              > (EWS). Many long-time
                              > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                              > Guidelines and my
                              > RESA turned a blind-
                              > eye to it all. We had
                              > so many former RESAs
                              > in volunteer positions
                              > that it was impossible
                              > to get them on the
                              > same page and to follow
                              > procedures. I think
                              > that some were just
                              > burned out and tired
                              > of Klemp's B.S. but
                              > didn't want to leave.
                              > Maybe they had too
                              > many friendships to
                              > lose. Plus, let's face
                              > it. A lot of these people
                              > are losers in the real
                              > world but are big shots
                              > in Eckankar. Those
                              > Higher Initiations are
                              > a big deal to the ego!
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                              > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                              > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                              > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                              > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                              > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                              >
                              > Non ;)
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hello All,
                              > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                              > > Letter I've read that
                              > > Klemp still needs to
                              > > update his Guidelines
                              > > for the H.I.s in the
                              > > field and chastise
                              > > those who are slow
                              > > to get with the program.
                              > >
                              > > Many long-time H.I.s
                              > > want the freedom
                              > > of Soul to be more
                              > > individualistic,
                              > > spontaneous, and
                              > > creative by thinking
                              > > they (Soul) can operate
                              > > outside-of-the-box,
                              > > thus, being channels
                              > > for the ECK. Klemp
                              > > has previously stated
                              > > that he's imperfect,
                              > > but that's not the case
                              > > with the ECK, correct?
                              > >
                              > > Why, then, shouldn't
                              > > their current (Present)
                              > > Inner EK Guidance be
                              > > followed versus that
                              > > of outer set-in-stone
                              > > ESC Guidelines printed
                              > > in the Past and approved
                              > > by a committee of imperfect
                              > > people on a plane ruled
                              > > by the KAL?
                              > >
                              > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                              > > that freedom of expression
                              > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                              > > version of ECKankar.
                              > > It's a hierarchy where
                              > > everything is spelled
                              > > out and controlled
                              > > by him and his secret
                              > > RESA police, plus, all
                              > > field work must be
                              > > approved via the
                              > > current Guidelines.
                              > >
                              > > Many inexperienced
                              > > EKists like the idea of
                              > > being told how to do
                              > > this or that and what
                              > > approved books to use
                              > > and what to say and
                              > > other details to make
                              > > the promotion of
                              > > Eckankar easier.
                              > >
                              > > But the real point the
                              > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                              > > is to have EK PR more
                              > > consistent and cookie
                              > > cutter looking/sounding
                              > > for the public.
                              > >
                              > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                              > > are like following a
                              > > recipe set-in-stone
                              > > that disregards individual
                              > > or regional tastes and
                              > > disallows any additions
                              > > or omissions of other
                              > > ingredients, methods,
                              > > and/or spices.
                              > >
                              > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                              > > are about H.I.s resisting
                              > > change. He says they "rock
                              > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                              > > that "it's all about fear."
                              > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                              > > and "reinforce in each other
                              > > a group's opposition to
                              > > anything new." Strange
                              > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                              > > subject to fear since he's
                              > > supposed to protect them!
                              > > This is how the KAL works.
                              > > Klemp is his agent.
                              > >
                              > > However, the real 'change'
                              > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                              > > Klemp's nonsense and
                              > > heavy handed control tactics.
                              > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                              > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                              > > being bound to dogma.
                              > > HK side-steps delivering
                              > > on his promises of protection
                              > > and never has anything
                              > > profound to share. And,
                              > > where are those Higher
                              > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                              > > yardsticks in measuring
                              > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                              > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                              > > the long-con and is, thus,
                              > > stingy and self-serving.
                              > >
                              > > Harold goes on to say that
                              > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                              > > on the path to God instead
                              > > of being stepping stones."
                              > > Apparently, being creative
                              > > and spontaneous and
                              > > following "Inner Nudges"
                              > > and/or "Signs" are not
                              > > permitted if it conflicts
                              > > with the LEM's outer,
                              > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                              > >
                              > > The LEM states that, "We
                              > > are here to learn." However,
                              > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                              > > from others since he never
                              > > listens? He's the Top goD
                              > > and doesn't partake in
                              > > two-way dialogues with
                              > > those under his authority.
                              > >
                              > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                              > > and unloving as he continues
                              > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                              > > believe that if they sit still
                              > > and breathe only enough to
                              > > sustain life that they may
                              > > well dodge the lightning
                              > > strikes of irksome change."
                              > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                              > > like KAL! However, by doing
                              > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                              > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                              > > Don't EKists still die of all
                              > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                              > > that could have be averted
                              > > if they had gotten proper
                              > > and immediate care? Sure!
                              > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                              > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                              > > are meaningless... unless
                              > > you've given this Black
                              > > Magician power over you!
                              > >
                              > > But, it seems that HK
                              > > has something else stuck
                              > > in his craw. It seems to
                              > > me that Klemp doesn't
                              > > like his 7ths just sitting
                              > > still and Contemplating
                              > > or HUing, and enjoying
                              > > life. But why shouldn't
                              > > they take it easy after
                              > > 40 years of doing PR
                              > > work for Eckankar!
                              > >
                              > > So, what does Klemp
                              > > the All compassionate,
                              > > loving, positive, and
                              > > empathetic icon of EK
                              > > conclude?
                              > >
                              > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                              > > refuses to adhere to
                              > > the ECK Guidelines
                              > > needs to be addressed
                              > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                              > > I wonder what that
                              > > really means? Well,
                              > > unless you're already
                              > > a 7th you can kiss that
                              > > next initiation good-bye
                              > > for like 10-20 years!
                              > >
                              > > Klemp continues to say,
                              > > "These are big stakes!
                              > > Continued refusal means
                              > > it's time for a replacement
                              > > to step in. A change is
                              > > due. Change. isn't it
                              > > funny how we have come
                              > > full circle?" No! It's not
                              > > really funny. Klemp
                              > > abuses the concept
                              > > of "change" and makes
                              > > it into a misnomer.
                              > >
                              > > What "changes" are there
                              > > in Eckankar? The same
                              > > old things are merely
                              > > revisited, updated, dusted
                              > > off and made to seem
                              > > "new." It's all a facade,
                              > > smoke and mirrors, and
                              > > a game of pretend by
                              > > creating brightly colored
                              > > straws to grab at and
                              > > cling to when drowning.
                              > >
                              > > Too bad that EKists are
                              > > so deluded and needy
                              > > and aren't able to read
                              > > between the lines and
                              > > see the real truth behind
                              > > Klemp's words and methods.
                              > >
                              > > Prometheus
                              >
                            • Janice Pfeiffer
                              Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.    Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it
                              Message 14 of 25 , Dec 14, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                                 
                                Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                                 
                                That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                                 
                                In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                                 
                                 I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                                 
                                The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                                 
                                It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                                 
                                When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                                 
                                Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                                 
                                I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                                --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                                 
                                Hello Janice,
                                Thanks for the interesting
                                reply and the sharing of
                                insights and experiences.
                                I really really enjoyed it
                                all.

                                The reason why someone
                                knew you received your
                                pink slip is because the
                                RESA gets an initiation
                                eligibility list where he/
                                she will mark yea/nay
                                for an initiation. When
                                the yea is checked the
                                ESC (membership services)
                                will more than likely issue
                                the pink slip for the initiation.
                                Or, the file has been red
                                flagged for some reason.
                                Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                a temporary hold on higher
                                initiations. Maybe it's due
                                to pending requirements
                                for training/retraining.
                                The ESC will notify the
                                RESA when the pink slip
                                is sent.

                                Most Eckists don't know
                                how the initiation process
                                works.

                                The RESA has a membership
                                list generated by the ESC
                                for all those EKists in their
                                region and it will show
                                initiation level, one's status
                                and date of membership
                                among other info. If a
                                new person sends in a
                                membership form to the
                                ESC from anywhere in
                                the RESA's region the RESA
                                will be notified of who
                                they are and their mailing
                                address.

                                I was glad Ford Johnson
                                wrote his book and that
                                I was told about it by an
                                Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                The Irony is that he was
                                doing Public Information
                                and was quite the gossip.

                                I always was the skeptic
                                and had trouble with a lot
                                of what I saw and experienced
                                around H.I.s.

                                When I was a lower initiate
                                I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                spiritual nor anywhere close
                                to being enlightened. There
                                were too many contradictions,
                                restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                Once you're an EK member
                                the next step is to get you
                                to become a volunteer on
                                HK's sales team.

                                I always wondered how
                                was there an "inner" connection
                                to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                were still smoking and
                                drinking alcohol, but
                                getting promoted with
                                more initiations? I knew
                                of two 5ths who smoked
                                and drank and got pink
                                slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                that Klemp knows nothing
                                unless informed via phone
                                or snailmail... email now!

                                Yes, Janice, we were the
                                ones awakened to the Truth
                                while all of those "Higher"
                                (pretend) Initiates are still
                                sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                become very skilled at
                                regurgitating the PR and
                                at facilitating and public
                                speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                no idea of what it's like
                                to be Free thinkers and
                                free of religion and of the
                                EK Hierarchy. They think
                                that their "spiritual experiences"
                                are unique when these
                                are common and similar
                                experiences that all religious
                                seekers have had... even
                                Christians!

                                Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                in order to fill a void and
                                to learn some important
                                lessons about ourselves
                                and about religion in general.

                                IMO, Those who left
                                Eckankar but still have
                                a need for religion, haven't
                                really learned that they
                                will never find answers
                                via a group consciousness
                                or via a guru/master.
                                True, it is nice to know
                                people of like mind and
                                to share things, but this
                                can be a bad thing as well
                                if we become too attached
                                or lazy and want to play
                                follow the leader again.

                                It all comes down to one's
                                private and personal experiences
                                and inner revelations with
                                oneSelf and with whatever
                                catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                Prometheus

                                Janice wrote:
                                I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                Blessings to all of you.


                                prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                > and "explorer" positions at
                                > the EK Centers would trip
                                > over their egos and go on
                                > power trips. Many seemed
                                > cliquish and would huddle
                                > together. Then, again, some
                                > weren't all that friendly or
                                > were very introverted and
                                > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                > including the clerics, to
                                > greet and talk to all of the
                                > new or seldom seen faces
                                > that showed up. Many
                                > only saw other Eckists at
                                > the monthly EWS and this
                                > was a time to catch up on
                                > things. This is why I'd
                                > suggest going to lunch
                                > after the EWS and socializing.
                                >
                                > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                > True? I think so!
                                >
                                > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                > and requirements for Eckists
                                > means that they must take
                                > on extroverted roles in
                                > order to become H.I.s.
                                > Eckists must force themselves,
                                > against their innate natures,
                                > to become extroverted and
                                > egocentric. These leadership
                                > requirements create conflict,
                                > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                > Thus, this imbalance that
                                > Klemp has created and
                                > reenforces aids him in
                                > the brainwashing of his
                                > flock to have programmed
                                > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                > mystical experiences. But,
                                > this has its toll and is why
                                > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                > and his anal control tactics.
                                >
                                > Sometimes, at special
                                > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                > and mini retreats the
                                > long-time H.I.s, former
                                > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                > members would gather
                                > around and gossip about
                                > those absent or present.
                                > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                > gossip but rationalized
                                > as more of an evaluative/
                                > investigative discussion
                                > for possible initiation
                                > recommendation or for
                                > a Satsang position appointment.
                                > They wanted to know,
                                > from sources who knew
                                > them, if there were problems
                                > with these EKists and, if
                                > so, what the specific details
                                > were. It was all ego driven
                                > and subjective because we
                                > were all volunteers and
                                > had family and personal
                                > lives too. But, it did weed
                                > out those who weren't as
                                > well indoctrinated....
                                > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                > much always a waste of
                                > time so, in the long run,
                                > enthusiasm was probably
                                > more important than acting
                                > the part. The Satsang positions
                                > and duties kept people
                                > busy, gave them a purpose
                                > and made them feel good,
                                > although, very stressed out.
                                >
                                > The Initiation game has made
                                > Eckists struggle with denying
                                > how much more they want of
                                > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                >
                                > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                > that an ESA told you that the
                                > people at the EK Center were
                                > crazy. That just isn't done
                                > and is part of HK's agenda
                                > of Silence and retraining.
                                >
                                > There's that old Buddha quote
                                > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                > and this is supposed to keep
                                > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                > sometimes get reported:
                                > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                > this I ask myself before I
                                > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                > following this criteria is very
                                > subjective and could or would
                                > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                > conservations.
                                >
                                > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                > may be "true" for you and
                                > for most people but not
                                > not for all people. And, is
                                > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                > this within earshot of people
                                > who aren't feeling well or
                                > who can't enjoy the day?
                                > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                > to keep the critics of his
                                > policies and of his H.I.s
                                > to a minimum.
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                >
                                > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                >
                                > Good to be away from it.
                                >
                                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                >
                                > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                >
                                > Russ wrote:
                                > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                >
                                > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                > things.
                                >
                                > Russ
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > prometheus wrote:
                                > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                > that Klemp has enough of
                                > a problem that he used it
                                > in the ASK The MASTER
                                > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                > And, it was the only question!
                                > They had, supposedly, an
                                > H.I. write-in and point out
                                > the problem. No name given.
                                >
                                > I remember when I had
                                > to deal with some older
                                > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                > coordinator and director
                                > positions and it was
                                > impossible to get this
                                > one to follow the Guidelines
                                > on EK Worship Services
                                > (EWS). Many long-time
                                > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                > Guidelines and my
                                > RESA turned a blind-
                                > eye to it all. We had
                                > so many former RESAs
                                > in volunteer positions
                                > that it was impossible
                                > to get them on the
                                > same page and to follow
                                > procedures. I think
                                > that some were just
                                > burned out and tired
                                > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                > didn't want to leave.
                                > Maybe they had too
                                > many friendships to
                                > lose. Plus, let's face
                                > it. A lot of these people
                                > are losers in the real
                                > world but are big shots
                                > in Eckankar. Those
                                > Higher Initiations are
                                > a big deal to the ego!
                                >
                                > Prometheus
                                >
                                >
                                > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                >
                                > Non ;)
                                >
                                > prometheus wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hello All,
                                > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                > > Letter I've read that
                                > > Klemp still needs to
                                > > update his Guidelines
                                > > for the H.I.s in the
                                > > field and chastise
                                > > those who are slow
                                > > to get with the program.
                                > >
                                > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                > > want the freedom
                                > > of Soul to be more
                                > > individualistic,
                                > > spontaneous, and
                                > > creative by thinking
                                > > they (Soul) can operate
                                > > outside-of-the-box,
                                > > thus, being channels
                                > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                > > has previously stated
                                > > that he's imperfect,
                                > > but that's not the case
                                > > with the ECK, correct?
                                > >
                                > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                > > their current (Present)
                                > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                > > followed versus that
                                > > of outer set-in-stone
                                > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                > > in the Past and approved
                                > > by a committee of imperfect
                                > > people on a plane ruled
                                > > by the KAL?
                                > >
                                > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                > > that freedom of expression
                                > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                > > version of ECKankar.
                                > > It's a hierarchy where
                                > > everything is spelled
                                > > out and controlled
                                > > by him and his secret
                                > > RESA police, plus, all
                                > > field work must be
                                > > approved via the
                                > > current Guidelines.
                                > >
                                > > Many inexperienced
                                > > EKists like the idea of
                                > > being told how to do
                                > > this or that and what
                                > > approved books to use
                                > > and what to say and
                                > > other details to make
                                > > the promotion of
                                > > Eckankar easier.
                                > >
                                > > But the real point the
                                > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                > > is to have EK PR more
                                > > consistent and cookie
                                > > cutter looking/sounding
                                > > for the public.
                                > >
                                > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                > > are like following a
                                > > recipe set-in-stone
                                > > that disregards individual
                                > > or regional tastes and
                                > > disallows any additions
                                > > or omissions of other
                                > > ingredients, methods,
                                > > and/or spices.
                                > >
                                > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                > > change. He says they "rock
                                > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                > > that "it's all about fear."
                                > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                > > and "reinforce in each other
                                > > a group's opposition to
                                > > anything new." Strange
                                > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                > > subject to fear since he's
                                > > supposed to protect them!
                                > > This is how the KAL works.
                                > > Klemp is his agent.
                                > >
                                > > However, the real 'change'
                                > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                > > being bound to dogma.
                                > > HK side-steps delivering
                                > > on his promises of protection
                                > > and never has anything
                                > > profound to share. And,
                                > > where are those Higher
                                > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                > > yardsticks in measuring
                                > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                > > stingy and self-serving.
                                > >
                                > > Harold goes on to say that
                                > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                > > on the path to God instead
                                > > of being stepping stones."
                                > > Apparently, being creative
                                > > and spontaneous and
                                > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                > > permitted if it conflicts
                                > > with the LEM's outer,
                                > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                > >
                                > > The LEM states that, "We
                                > > are here to learn." However,
                                > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                > > from others since he never
                                > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                > > and doesn't partake in
                                > > two-way dialogues with
                                > > those under his authority.
                                > >
                                > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                > > and unloving as he continues
                                > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                > > believe that if they sit still
                                > > and breathe only enough to
                                > > sustain life that they may
                                > > well dodge the lightning
                                > > strikes of irksome change."
                                > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                > > that could have be averted
                                > > if they had gotten proper
                                > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                > > are meaningless... unless
                                > > you've given this Black
                                > > Magician power over you!
                                > >
                                > > But, it seems that HK
                                > > has something else stuck
                                > > in his craw. It seems to
                                > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                > > still and Contemplating
                                > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                > > life. But why shouldn't
                                > > they take it easy after
                                > > 40 years of doing PR
                                > > work for Eckankar!
                                > >
                                > > So, what does Klemp
                                > > the All compassionate,
                                > > loving, positive, and
                                > > empathetic icon of EK
                                > > conclude?
                                > >
                                > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                > > refuses to adhere to
                                > > the ECK Guidelines
                                > > needs to be addressed
                                > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                > > I wonder what that
                                > > really means? Well,
                                > > unless you're already
                                > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                > > next initiation good-bye
                                > > for like 10-20 years!
                                > >
                                > > Klemp continues to say,
                                > > "These are big stakes!
                                > > Continued refusal means
                                > > it's time for a replacement
                                > > to step in. A change is
                                > > due. Change. isn't it
                                > > funny how we have come
                                > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                > > really funny. Klemp
                                > > abuses the concept
                                > > of "change" and makes
                                > > it into a misnomer.
                                > >
                                > > What "changes" are there
                                > > in Eckankar? The same
                                > > old things are merely
                                > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                > > off and made to seem
                                > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                > > a game of pretend by
                                > > creating brightly colored
                                > > straws to grab at and
                                > > cling to when drowning.
                                > >
                                > > Too bad that EKists are
                                > > so deluded and needy
                                > > and aren't able to read
                                > > between the lines and
                                > > see the real truth behind
                                > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                > >
                                > > Prometheus
                                >

                              • prometheus_973
                                Hello Janice, Most H.I.s have no idea how the EK Initiation process works. It s sad because there are some really nice and gentile chelas who have been passed
                                Message 15 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello Janice,
                                  Most H.I.s have no idea
                                  how the EK Initiation
                                  process works. It's sad
                                  because there are some
                                  really nice and gentile
                                  chelas who have been
                                  passed over on the 5th.
                                  Some died as 4ths when
                                  they should have had
                                  some happiness, peace
                                  of mind, and contentment
                                  by receiving that 5th.
                                  I've know several eckists
                                  where this has happened.
                                  It was no big deal to give
                                  them their 5th initiation,
                                  but some RESAs are mean-
                                  spirited, lack empathy,
                                  and are petty. They've
                                  gotten caught up in HK's
                                  game. All Eckists should
                                  get the 5th after no more
                                  than 20 years, especially,
                                  when they participate
                                  and are kept current on
                                  their membership. However,
                                  that's not the way the
                                  power trip is played by
                                  some RESAs.

                                  I hate to admit this but
                                  I helped the RESA when
                                  asked about people. I
                                  was quizzed about those
                                  up for, usually, the 5th
                                  and 6th initiation. I was
                                  asked about what the EKist
                                  said, how they acted and
                                  conducted themselves
                                  and any unusual things
                                  that I noticed about
                                  their behavior or performance.
                                  And then I was asked for
                                  my opinion. Unfortunately
                                  my replies, I know, had
                                  some initiations delayed
                                  for these people and I
                                  regret that I got caught
                                  up in this petty mind game.
                                  Some of these people are
                                  still H.I.s and have no idea
                                  why they had to wait so
                                  long for their 5th or 6th.
                                  Many probably think that
                                  the Mahanta was testing
                                  them! LOL! On the other
                                  hand maybe some of them,
                                  by now, have been asked
                                  to evaluate people too.
                                  I wonder if they put two
                                  and two together and
                                  figured it out, unless,
                                  they were told why like
                                  I had been told.

                                  Why, though, should
                                  Klemp have a system
                                  for initiations that judges
                                  and punishes Eckists
                                  based upon our evaluations?
                                  Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                  of the Mahanta?

                                  Besides, a 5th is no big
                                  deal, and it's not like one
                                  becomes a cleric automatically
                                  with a 5th. Really, being
                                  an 5th is no more being
                                  an official representative
                                  of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                  Yes, most Eckists have
                                  no idea that a computer
                                  generated eligibility list
                                  is sent to the RESA by the
                                  ESC and that phone calls
                                  are made asking questions
                                  where subjective answers
                                  are given and that the RESA
                                  uses these to either approve
                                  and give a recommendation
                                  for initiation or doesn't.
                                  However, I will say that
                                  any "No" has to have an
                                  valid reason. The ESC
                                  usually follows the RESAs'
                                  recommendations.

                                  BTW- Janice, I think that
                                  your RESA approved of
                                  your initiation because
                                  he felt guilty for having
                                  yelled at you, plus, you
                                  could have reported him
                                  to the ESC. Maybe the
                                  initiation approval was
                                  meant to appease you?

                                  Prometheus



                                  Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                  Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person?

                                  That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless.

                                  In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                  I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all.

                                  The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his time and hung up.

                                  It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if that was part of it.

                                  When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It was enough.

                                  Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                  I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                  prometheus wrote:

                                  Hello Janice,
                                  Thanks for the interesting
                                  reply and the sharing of
                                  insights and experiences.
                                  I really really enjoyed it
                                  all.

                                  The reason why someone
                                  knew you received your
                                  pink slip is because the
                                  RESA gets an initiation
                                  eligibility list where he/
                                  she will mark yea/nay
                                  for an initiation. When
                                  the yea is checked the
                                  ESC (membership services)
                                  will more than likely issue
                                  the pink slip for the initiation.
                                  Or, the file has been red
                                  flagged for some reason.
                                  Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                  a temporary hold on higher
                                  initiations. Maybe it's due
                                  to pending requirements
                                  for training/retraining.
                                  The ESC will notify the
                                  RESA when the pink slip
                                  is sent.

                                  Most Eckists don't know
                                  how the initiation process
                                  works.

                                  The RESA has a membership
                                  list generated by the ESC
                                  for all those EKists in their
                                  region and it will show
                                  initiation level, one's status
                                  and date of membership
                                  among other info. If a
                                  new person sends in a
                                  membership form to the
                                  ESC from anywhere in
                                  the RESA's region the RESA
                                  will be notified of who
                                  they are and their mailing
                                  address.

                                  I was glad Ford Johnson
                                  wrote his book and that
                                  I was told about it by an
                                  Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                  The Irony is that he was
                                  doing Public Information
                                  and was quite the gossip.

                                  I always was the skeptic
                                  and had trouble with a lot
                                  of what I saw and experienced
                                  around H.I.s.

                                  When I was a lower initiate
                                  I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                  spiritual nor anywhere close
                                  to being enlightened. There
                                  were too many contradictions,
                                  restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                  Once you're an EK member
                                  the next step is to get you
                                  to become a volunteer on
                                  HK's sales team.

                                  I always wondered how
                                  was there an "inner" connection
                                  to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                  were still smoking and
                                  drinking alcohol, but
                                  getting promoted with
                                  more initiations? I knew
                                  of two 5ths who smoked
                                  and drank and got pink
                                  slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                  that Klemp knows nothing
                                  unless informed via phone
                                  or snailmail... email now!

                                  Yes, Janice, we were the
                                  ones awakened to the Truth
                                  while all of those "Higher"
                                  (pretend) Initiates are still
                                  sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                  become very skilled at
                                  regurgitating the PR and
                                  at facilitating and public
                                  speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                  no idea of what it's like
                                  to be Free thinkers and
                                  free of religion and of the
                                  EK Hierarchy. They think
                                  that their "spiritual experiences"
                                  are unique when these
                                  are common and similar
                                  experiences that all religious
                                  seekers have had... even
                                  Christians!

                                  Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                  in order to fill a void and
                                  to learn some important
                                  lessons about ourselves
                                  and about religion in general.

                                  IMO, Those who left
                                  Eckankar but still have
                                  a need for religion, haven't
                                  really learned that they
                                  will never find answers
                                  via a group consciousness
                                  or via a guru/master.
                                  True, it is nice to know
                                  people of like mind and
                                  to share things, but this
                                  can be a bad thing as well
                                  if we become too attached
                                  or lazy and want to play
                                  follow the leader again.

                                  It all comes down to one's
                                  private and personal experiences
                                  and inner revelations with
                                  oneSelf and with whatever
                                  catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                  Prometheus

                                  Janice wrote:
                                  I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                  Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                  I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                  Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                  How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                  That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                  The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                  Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                  I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                  I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                  I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                  Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                  Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                  Blessings to all of you.


                                  prometheus wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                  > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                  > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                  > and "explorer" positions at
                                  > the EK Centers would trip
                                  > over their egos and go on
                                  > power trips. Many seemed
                                  > cliquish and would huddle
                                  > together. Then, again, some
                                  > weren't all that friendly or
                                  > were very introverted and
                                  > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                  > including the clerics, to
                                  > greet and talk to all of the
                                  > new or seldom seen faces
                                  > that showed up. Many
                                  > only saw other Eckists at
                                  > the monthly EWS and this
                                  > was a time to catch up on
                                  > things. This is why I'd
                                  > suggest going to lunch
                                  > after the EWS and socializing.
                                  >
                                  > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                  > True? I think so!
                                  >
                                  > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                  > and requirements for Eckists
                                  > means that they must take
                                  > on extroverted roles in
                                  > order to become H.I.s.
                                  > Eckists must force themselves,
                                  > against their innate natures,
                                  > to become extroverted and
                                  > egocentric. These leadership
                                  > requirements create conflict,
                                  > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                  > Thus, this imbalance that
                                  > Klemp has created and
                                  > reenforces aids him in
                                  > the brainwashing of his
                                  > flock to have programmed
                                  > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                  > mystical experiences. But,
                                  > this has its toll and is why
                                  > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                  > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                  > and his anal control tactics.
                                  >
                                  > Sometimes, at special
                                  > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                  > and mini retreats the
                                  > long-time H.I.s, former
                                  > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                  > members would gather
                                  > around and gossip about
                                  > those absent or present.
                                  > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                  > gossip but rationalized
                                  > as more of an evaluative/
                                  > investigative discussion
                                  > for possible initiation
                                  > recommendation or for
                                  > a Satsang position appointment.
                                  > They wanted to know,
                                  > from sources who knew
                                  > them, if there were problems
                                  > with these EKists and, if
                                  > so, what the specific details
                                  > were. It was all ego driven
                                  > and subjective because we
                                  > were all volunteers and
                                  > had family and personal
                                  > lives too. But, it did weed
                                  > out those who weren't as
                                  > well indoctrinated....
                                  > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                  > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                  > much always a waste of
                                  > time so, in the long run,
                                  > enthusiasm was probably
                                  > more important than acting
                                  > the part. The Satsang positions
                                  > and duties kept people
                                  > busy, gave them a purpose
                                  > and made them feel good,
                                  > although, very stressed out.
                                  >
                                  > The Initiation game has made
                                  > Eckists struggle with denying
                                  > how much more they want of
                                  > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                  >
                                  > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                  > that an ESA told you that the
                                  > people at the EK Center were
                                  > crazy. That just isn't done
                                  > and is part of HK's agenda
                                  > of Silence and retraining.
                                  >
                                  > There's that old Buddha quote
                                  > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                  > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                  > and this is supposed to keep
                                  > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                  > sometimes get reported:
                                  > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                  > this I ask myself before I
                                  > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                  > following this criteria is very
                                  > subjective and could or would
                                  > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                  > conservations.
                                  >
                                  > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                  > may be "true" for you and
                                  > for most people but not
                                  > not for all people. And, is
                                  > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                  > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                  > this within earshot of people
                                  > who aren't feeling well or
                                  > who can't enjoy the day?
                                  > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                  > to keep the critics of his
                                  > policies and of his H.I.s
                                  > to a minimum.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                  > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                  > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                  > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                  > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                  > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                  > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                  > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                  > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                  > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                  >
                                  > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                  > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                  >
                                  > Good to be away from it.
                                  >
                                  > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                  > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                  > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                  > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                  > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                  > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                  > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                  > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                  > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                  > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                  > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                  > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                  > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                  > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                  > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                  > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                  > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                  > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                  > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                  > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                  > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                  > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                  > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                  > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                  > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                  > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                  > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                  > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                  >
                                  > Russ wrote:
                                  > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                  > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                  > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                  > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                  >
                                  > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                  > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                  > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                  > things.
                                  >
                                  > Russ
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                  > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                  > that Klemp has enough of
                                  > a problem that he used it
                                  > in the ASK The MASTER
                                  > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                  > And, it was the only question!
                                  > They had, supposedly, an
                                  > H.I. write-in and point out
                                  > the problem. No name given.
                                  >
                                  > I remember when I had
                                  > to deal with some older
                                  > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                  > coordinator and director
                                  > positions and it was
                                  > impossible to get this
                                  > one to follow the Guidelines
                                  > on EK Worship Services
                                  > (EWS). Many long-time
                                  > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                  > Guidelines and my
                                  > RESA turned a blind-
                                  > eye to it all. We had
                                  > so many former RESAs
                                  > in volunteer positions
                                  > that it was impossible
                                  > to get them on the
                                  > same page and to follow
                                  > procedures. I think
                                  > that some were just
                                  > burned out and tired
                                  > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                  > didn't want to leave.
                                  > Maybe they had too
                                  > many friendships to
                                  > lose. Plus, let's face
                                  > it. A lot of these people
                                  > are losers in the real
                                  > world but are big shots
                                  > in Eckankar. Those
                                  > Higher Initiations are
                                  > a big deal to the ego!
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                  > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                  > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                  > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                  > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                  > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                  >
                                  > Non ;)
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hello All,
                                  > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                  > > Letter I've read that
                                  > > Klemp still needs to
                                  > > update his Guidelines
                                  > > for the H.I.s in the
                                  > > field and chastise
                                  > > those who are slow
                                  > > to get with the program.
                                  > >
                                  > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                  > > want the freedom
                                  > > of Soul to be more
                                  > > individualistic,
                                  > > spontaneous, and
                                  > > creative by thinking
                                  > > they (Soul) can operate
                                  > > outside-of-the-box,
                                  > > thus, being channels
                                  > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                  > > has previously stated
                                  > > that he's imperfect,
                                  > > but that's not the case
                                  > > with the ECK, correct?
                                  > >
                                  > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                  > > their current (Present)
                                  > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                  > > followed versus that
                                  > > of outer set-in-stone
                                  > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                  > > in the Past and approved
                                  > > by a committee of imperfect
                                  > > people on a plane ruled
                                  > > by the KAL?
                                  > >
                                  > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                  > > that freedom of expression
                                  > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                  > > version of ECKankar.
                                  > > It's a hierarchy where
                                  > > everything is spelled
                                  > > out and controlled
                                  > > by him and his secret
                                  > > RESA police, plus, all
                                  > > field work must be
                                  > > approved via the
                                  > > current Guidelines.
                                  > >
                                  > > Many inexperienced
                                  > > EKists like the idea of
                                  > > being told how to do
                                  > > this or that and what
                                  > > approved books to use
                                  > > and what to say and
                                  > > other details to make
                                  > > the promotion of
                                  > > Eckankar easier.
                                  > >
                                  > > But the real point the
                                  > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                  > > is to have EK PR more
                                  > > consistent and cookie
                                  > > cutter looking/sounding
                                  > > for the public.
                                  > >
                                  > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                  > > are like following a
                                  > > recipe set-in-stone
                                  > > that disregards individual
                                  > > or regional tastes and
                                  > > disallows any additions
                                  > > or omissions of other
                                  > > ingredients, methods,
                                  > > and/or spices.
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                  > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                  > > change. He says they "rock
                                  > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                  > > that "it's all about fear."
                                  > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                  > > and "reinforce in each other
                                  > > a group's opposition to
                                  > > anything new." Strange
                                  > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                  > > subject to fear since he's
                                  > > supposed to protect them!
                                  > > This is how the KAL works.
                                  > > Klemp is his agent.
                                  > >
                                  > > However, the real 'change'
                                  > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                  > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                  > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                  > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                  > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                  > > being bound to dogma.
                                  > > HK side-steps delivering
                                  > > on his promises of protection
                                  > > and never has anything
                                  > > profound to share. And,
                                  > > where are those Higher
                                  > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                  > > yardsticks in measuring
                                  > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                  > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                  > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                  > > stingy and self-serving.
                                  > >
                                  > > Harold goes on to say that
                                  > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                  > > on the path to God instead
                                  > > of being stepping stones."
                                  > > Apparently, being creative
                                  > > and spontaneous and
                                  > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                  > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                  > > permitted if it conflicts
                                  > > with the LEM's outer,
                                  > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                  > >
                                  > > The LEM states that, "We
                                  > > are here to learn." However,
                                  > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                  > > from others since he never
                                  > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                  > > and doesn't partake in
                                  > > two-way dialogues with
                                  > > those under his authority.
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                  > > and unloving as he continues
                                  > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                  > > believe that if they sit still
                                  > > and breathe only enough to
                                  > > sustain life that they may
                                  > > well dodge the lightning
                                  > > strikes of irksome change."
                                  > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                  > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                  > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                  > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                  > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                  > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                  > > that could have be averted
                                  > > if they had gotten proper
                                  > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                  > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                  > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                  > > are meaningless... unless
                                  > > you've given this Black
                                  > > Magician power over you!
                                  > >
                                  > > But, it seems that HK
                                  > > has something else stuck
                                  > > in his craw. It seems to
                                  > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                  > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                  > > still and Contemplating
                                  > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                  > > life. But why shouldn't
                                  > > they take it easy after
                                  > > 40 years of doing PR
                                  > > work for Eckankar!
                                  > >
                                  > > So, what does Klemp
                                  > > the All compassionate,
                                  > > loving, positive, and
                                  > > empathetic icon of EK
                                  > > conclude?
                                  > >
                                  > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                  > > refuses to adhere to
                                  > > the ECK Guidelines
                                  > > needs to be addressed
                                  > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                  > > I wonder what that
                                  > > really means? Well,
                                  > > unless you're already
                                  > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                  > > next initiation good-bye
                                  > > for like 10-20 years!
                                  > >
                                  > > Klemp continues to say,
                                  > > "These are big stakes!
                                  > > Continued refusal means
                                  > > it's time for a replacement
                                  > > to step in. A change is
                                  > > due. Change. isn't it
                                  > > funny how we have come
                                  > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                  > > really funny. Klemp
                                  > > abuses the concept
                                  > > of "change" and makes
                                  > > it into a misnomer.
                                  > >
                                  > > What "changes" are there
                                  > > in Eckankar? The same
                                  > > old things are merely
                                  > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                  > > off and made to seem
                                  > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                  > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                  > > a game of pretend by
                                  > > creating brightly colored
                                  > > straws to grab at and
                                  > > cling to when drowning.
                                  > >
                                  > > Too bad that EKists are
                                  > > so deluded and needy
                                  > > and aren't able to read
                                  > > between the lines and
                                  > > see the real truth behind
                                  > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                  > >
                                  > > Prometheus
                                • Janice Pfeiffer
                                  Thanks again Prometheus,   The very fact that this resa thought I was asking about my own initiations and he had to insist that he had said nothing about me
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Thanks again Prometheus,
                                     
                                    The very fact that this resa thought I was asking about my own initiations and he had to insist that he had said nothing about me was proof that what I had been told,  was in fact true.  I didn't ask about my own and I said nothing about anything he might have said.  I was asking about how all initiations came about.  Yes, the initial info I got was the computer generated the list and  then the locals were questioned.
                                     
                                    For the longest time I did consider writing Minneapolis about my experiences.  The reason I finally decided against it was, I thought it would only help eckankar sharpen it's con game by telling them about it's weaknesses.  Why help people become better liars and cheaters? 
                                     
                                    It never occurred to me to try and take action about the resa screaming at me.  He was clearly out of control.  When I am dealing with a person whose behavior is so erratic, I just can't take their opinions seriously.  Besides, it was just more proof that the whole org ran like a circus filled with clowns and the bigger the nut job, the more likely they would advance.  I don't think klemp himself would give me a straight answer for what I ask and most likely if I got one at all, it wouldn't be an intelligent one.
                                     
                                    According to what you are saying even HI's didn't know the truth about initiations. I take it only those in some kind of local leadership roles were asked about individuals.
                                     
                                    After hearing what  you say, I feel very lucky that I found out as early as I did.  It must be a closely guarded secret.  Until now, I assumed that all HI's did know and I couldn't understand why the lies about it kept being perpetuated down. 
                                     
                                    You have given me just what I needed to know.  Most eckist remain in the dark no matter how long they are in.  Wow, that's a mind blower.  You have to admit, it is quite an ingenious con.  I do appreciate your frank answer. 
                                     
                                    As always, thanks for all you give.
                                     

                                    --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 8:14 AM

                                     
                                    Hello Janice,
                                    Most H.I.s have no idea
                                    how the EK Initiation
                                    process works. It's sad
                                    because there are some
                                    really nice and gentile
                                    chelas who have been
                                    passed over on the 5th.
                                    Some died as 4ths when
                                    they should have had
                                    some happiness, peace
                                    of mind, and contentment
                                    by receiving that 5th.
                                    I've know several eckists
                                    where this has happened.
                                    It was no big deal to give
                                    them their 5th initiation,
                                    but some RESAs are mean-
                                    spirited, lack empathy,
                                    and are petty. They've
                                    gotten caught up in HK's
                                    game. All Eckists should
                                    get the 5th after no more
                                    than 20 years, especially,
                                    when they participate
                                    and are kept current on
                                    their membership. However,
                                    that's not the way the
                                    power trip is played by
                                    some RESAs.

                                    I hate to admit this but
                                    I helped the RESA when
                                    asked about people. I
                                    was quizzed about those
                                    up for, usually, the 5th
                                    and 6th initiation. I was
                                    asked about what the EKist
                                    said, how they acted and
                                    conducted themselves
                                    and any unusual things
                                    that I noticed about
                                    their behavior or performance.
                                    And then I was asked for
                                    my opinion. Unfortunately
                                    my replies, I know, had
                                    some initiations delayed
                                    for these people and I
                                    regret that I got caught
                                    up in this petty mind game.
                                    Some of these people are
                                    still H.I.s and have no idea
                                    why they had to wait so
                                    long for their 5th or 6th.
                                    Many probably think that
                                    the Mahanta was testing
                                    them! LOL! On the other
                                    hand maybe some of them,
                                    by now, have been asked
                                    to evaluate people too.
                                    I wonder if they put two
                                    and two together and
                                    figured it out, unless,
                                    they were told why like
                                    I had been told.

                                    Why, though, should
                                    Klemp have a system
                                    for initiations that judges
                                    and punishes Eckists
                                    based upon our evaluations?
                                    Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                    of the Mahanta?

                                    Besides, a 5th is no big
                                    deal, and it's not like one
                                    becomes a cleric automatically
                                    with a 5th. Really, being
                                    an 5th is no more being
                                    an official representative
                                    of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                    Yes, most Eckists have
                                    no idea that a computer
                                    generated eligibility list
                                    is sent to the RESA by the
                                    ESC and that phone calls
                                    are made asking questions
                                    where subjective answers
                                    are given and that the RESA
                                    uses these to either approve
                                    and give a recommendation
                                    for initiation or doesn't.
                                    However, I will say that
                                    any "No" has to have an
                                    valid reason. The ESC
                                    usually follows the RESAs'
                                    recommendations.

                                    BTW- Janice, I think that
                                    your RESA approved of
                                    your initiation because
                                    he felt guilty for having
                                    yelled at you, plus, you
                                    could have reported him
                                    to the ESC. Maybe the
                                    initiation approval was
                                    meant to appease you?

                                    Prometheus


                                    Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                    Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person?

                                    That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless.

                                    In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                    I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all.

                                    The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his time and hung up.

                                    It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if that was part of it.

                                    When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It was enough.

                                    Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                    I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                    prometheus wrote:

                                    Hello Janice,
                                    Thanks for the interesting
                                    reply and the sharing of
                                    insights and experiences.
                                    I really really enjoyed it
                                    all.

                                    The reason why someone
                                    knew you received your
                                    pink slip is because the
                                    RESA gets an initiation
                                    eligibility list where he/
                                    she will mark yea/nay
                                    for an initiation. When
                                    the yea is checked the
                                    ESC (membership services)
                                    will more than likely issue
                                    the pink slip for the initiation.
                                    Or, the file has been red
                                    flagged for some reason.
                                    Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                    a temporary hold on higher
                                    initiations. Maybe it's due
                                    to pending requirements
                                    for training/retraining.
                                    The ESC will notify the
                                    RESA when the pink slip
                                    is sent.

                                    Most Eckists don't know
                                    how the initiation process
                                    works.

                                    The RESA has a membership
                                    list generated by the ESC
                                    for all those EKists in their
                                    region and it will show
                                    initiation level, one's status
                                    and date of membership
                                    among other info. If a
                                    new person sends in a
                                    membership form to the
                                    ESC from anywhere in
                                    the RESA's region the RESA
                                    will be notified of who
                                    they are and their mailing
                                    address.

                                    I was glad Ford Johnson
                                    wrote his book and that
                                    I was told about it by an
                                    Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                    The Irony is that he was
                                    doing Public Information
                                    and was quite the gossip.

                                    I always was the skeptic
                                    and had trouble with a lot
                                    of what I saw and experienced
                                    around H.I.s.

                                    When I was a lower initiate
                                    I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                    spiritual nor anywhere close
                                    to being enlightened. There
                                    were too many contradictions,
                                    restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                    Once you're an EK member
                                    the next step is to get you
                                    to become a volunteer on
                                    HK's sales team.

                                    I always wondered how
                                    was there an "inner" connection
                                    to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                    were still smoking and
                                    drinking alcohol, but
                                    getting promoted with
                                    more initiations? I knew
                                    of two 5ths who smoked
                                    and drank and got pink
                                    slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                    that Klemp knows nothing
                                    unless informed via phone
                                    or snailmail... email now!

                                    Yes, Janice, we were the
                                    ones awakened to the Truth
                                    while all of those "Higher"
                                    (pretend) Initiates are still
                                    sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                    become very skilled at
                                    regurgitating the PR and
                                    at facilitating and public
                                    speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                    no idea of what it's like
                                    to be Free thinkers and
                                    free of religion and of the
                                    EK Hierarchy. They think
                                    that their "spiritual experiences"
                                    are unique when these
                                    are common and similar
                                    experiences that all religious
                                    seekers have had... even
                                    Christians!

                                    Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                    in order to fill a void and
                                    to learn some important
                                    lessons about ourselves
                                    and about religion in general.

                                    IMO, Those who left
                                    Eckankar but still have
                                    a need for religion, haven't
                                    really learned that they
                                    will never find answers
                                    via a group consciousness
                                    or via a guru/master.
                                    True, it is nice to know
                                    people of like mind and
                                    to share things, but this
                                    can be a bad thing as well
                                    if we become too attached
                                    or lazy and want to play
                                    follow the leader again.

                                    It all comes down to one's
                                    private and personal experiences
                                    and inner revelations with
                                    oneSelf and with whatever
                                    catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                    Prometheus

                                    Janice wrote:
                                    I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                    Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                    I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                    Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                    How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                    That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                    The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                    Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                    I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                    I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                    I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                    Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                    Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                    Blessings to all of you.

                                    prometheus wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                    > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                    > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                    > and "explorer" positions at
                                    > the EK Centers would trip
                                    > over their egos and go on
                                    > power trips. Many seemed
                                    > cliquish and would huddle
                                    > together. Then, again, some
                                    > weren't all that friendly or
                                    > were very introverted and
                                    > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                    > including the clerics, to
                                    > greet and talk to all of the
                                    > new or seldom seen faces
                                    > that showed up. Many
                                    > only saw other Eckists at
                                    > the monthly EWS and this
                                    > was a time to catch up on
                                    > things. This is why I'd
                                    > suggest going to lunch
                                    > after the EWS and socializing.
                                    >
                                    > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                    > True? I think so!
                                    >
                                    > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                    > and requirements for Eckists
                                    > means that they must take
                                    > on extroverted roles in
                                    > order to become H.I.s.
                                    > Eckists must force themselves,
                                    > against their innate natures,
                                    > to become extroverted and
                                    > egocentric. These leadership
                                    > requirements create conflict,
                                    > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                    > Thus, this imbalance that
                                    > Klemp has created and
                                    > reenforces aids him in
                                    > the brainwashing of his
                                    > flock to have programmed
                                    > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                    > mystical experiences. But,
                                    > this has its toll and is why
                                    > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                    > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                    > and his anal control tactics.
                                    >
                                    > Sometimes, at special
                                    > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                    > and mini retreats the
                                    > long-time H.I.s, former
                                    > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                    > members would gather
                                    > around and gossip about
                                    > those absent or present.
                                    > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                    > gossip but rationalized
                                    > as more of an evaluative/
                                    > investigative discussion
                                    > for possible initiation
                                    > recommendation or for
                                    > a Satsang position appointment.
                                    > They wanted to know,
                                    > from sources who knew
                                    > them, if there were problems
                                    > with these EKists and, if
                                    > so, what the specific details
                                    > were. It was all ego driven
                                    > and subjective because we
                                    > were all volunteers and
                                    > had family and personal
                                    > lives too. But, it did weed
                                    > out those who weren't as
                                    > well indoctrinated....
                                    > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                    > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                    > much always a waste of
                                    > time so, in the long run,
                                    > enthusiasm was probably
                                    > more important than acting
                                    > the part. The Satsang positions
                                    > and duties kept people
                                    > busy, gave them a purpose
                                    > and made them feel good,
                                    > although, very stressed out.
                                    >
                                    > The Initiation game has made
                                    > Eckists struggle with denying
                                    > how much more they want of
                                    > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                    >
                                    > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                    > that an ESA told you that the
                                    > people at the EK Center were
                                    > crazy. That just isn't done
                                    > and is part of HK's agenda
                                    > of Silence and retraining.
                                    >
                                    > There's that old Buddha quote
                                    > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                    > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                    > and this is supposed to keep
                                    > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                    > sometimes get reported:
                                    > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                    > this I ask myself before I
                                    > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                    > following this criteria is very
                                    > subjective and could or would
                                    > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                    > conservations.
                                    >
                                    > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                    > may be "true" for you and
                                    > for most people but not
                                    > not for all people. And, is
                                    > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                    > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                    > this within earshot of people
                                    > who aren't feeling well or
                                    > who can't enjoy the day?
                                    > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                    > to keep the critics of his
                                    > policies and of his H.I.s
                                    > to a minimum.
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                    > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                    > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                    > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                    > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                    > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                    > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                    > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                    > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                    > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                    >
                                    > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                    > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                    >
                                    > Good to be away from it.
                                    >
                                    > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                    > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                    > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                    > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                    > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                    > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                    > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                    > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                    > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                    > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                    > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                    > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                    > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                    > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                    > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                    > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                    > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                    > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                    > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                    > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                    > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                    > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                    > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                    > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                    > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                    > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                    > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                    > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                    >
                                    > Russ wrote:
                                    > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                    > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                    > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                    > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                    >
                                    > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                    > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                    > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                    > things.
                                    >
                                    > Russ
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > prometheus wrote:
                                    > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                    > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                    > that Klemp has enough of
                                    > a problem that he used it
                                    > in the ASK The MASTER
                                    > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                    > And, it was the only question!
                                    > They had, supposedly, an
                                    > H.I. write-in and point out
                                    > the problem. No name given.
                                    >
                                    > I remember when I had
                                    > to deal with some older
                                    > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                    > coordinator and director
                                    > positions and it was
                                    > impossible to get this
                                    > one to follow the Guidelines
                                    > on EK Worship Services
                                    > (EWS). Many long-time
                                    > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                    > Guidelines and my
                                    > RESA turned a blind-
                                    > eye to it all. We had
                                    > so many former RESAs
                                    > in volunteer positions
                                    > that it was impossible
                                    > to get them on the
                                    > same page and to follow
                                    > procedures. I think
                                    > that some were just
                                    > burned out and tired
                                    > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                    > didn't want to leave.
                                    > Maybe they had too
                                    > many friendships to
                                    > lose. Plus, let's face
                                    > it. A lot of these people
                                    > are losers in the real
                                    > world but are big shots
                                    > in Eckankar. Those
                                    > Higher Initiations are
                                    > a big deal to the ego!
                                    >
                                    > Prometheus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                    > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                    > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                    > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                    > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                    > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                    >
                                    > Non ;)
                                    >
                                    > prometheus wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello All,
                                    > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                    > > Letter I've read that
                                    > > Klemp still needs to
                                    > > update his Guidelines
                                    > > for the H.I.s in the
                                    > > field and chastise
                                    > > those who are slow
                                    > > to get with the program.
                                    > >
                                    > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                    > > want the freedom
                                    > > of Soul to be more
                                    > > individualistic,
                                    > > spontaneous, and
                                    > > creative by thinking
                                    > > they (Soul) can operate
                                    > > outside-of-the-box,
                                    > > thus, being channels
                                    > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                    > > has previously stated
                                    > > that he's imperfect,
                                    > > but that's not the case
                                    > > with the ECK, correct?
                                    > >
                                    > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                    > > their current (Present)
                                    > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                    > > followed versus that
                                    > > of outer set-in-stone
                                    > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                    > > in the Past and approved
                                    > > by a committee of imperfect
                                    > > people on a plane ruled
                                    > > by the KAL?
                                    > >
                                    > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                    > > that freedom of expression
                                    > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                    > > version of ECKankar.
                                    > > It's a hierarchy where
                                    > > everything is spelled
                                    > > out and controlled
                                    > > by him and his secret
                                    > > RESA police, plus, all
                                    > > field work must be
                                    > > approved via the
                                    > > current Guidelines.
                                    > >
                                    > > Many inexperienced
                                    > > EKists like the idea of
                                    > > being told how to do
                                    > > this or that and what
                                    > > approved books to use
                                    > > and what to say and
                                    > > other details to make
                                    > > the promotion of
                                    > > Eckankar easier.
                                    > >
                                    > > But the real point the
                                    > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                    > > is to have EK PR more
                                    > > consistent and cookie
                                    > > cutter looking/sounding
                                    > > for the public.
                                    > >
                                    > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                    > > are like following a
                                    > > recipe set-in-stone
                                    > > that disregards individual
                                    > > or regional tastes and
                                    > > disallows any additions
                                    > > or omissions of other
                                    > > ingredients, methods,
                                    > > and/or spices.
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                    > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                    > > change. He says they "rock
                                    > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                    > > that "it's all about fear."
                                    > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                    > > and "reinforce in each other
                                    > > a group's opposition to
                                    > > anything new." Strange
                                    > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                    > > subject to fear since he's
                                    > > supposed to protect them!
                                    > > This is how the KAL works.
                                    > > Klemp is his agent.
                                    > >
                                    > > However, the real 'change'
                                    > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                    > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                    > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                    > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                    > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                    > > being bound to dogma.
                                    > > HK side-steps delivering
                                    > > on his promises of protection
                                    > > and never has anything
                                    > > profound to share. And,
                                    > > where are those Higher
                                    > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                    > > yardsticks in measuring
                                    > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                    > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                    > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                    > > stingy and self-serving.
                                    > >
                                    > > Harold goes on to say that
                                    > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                    > > on the path to God instead
                                    > > of being stepping stones."
                                    > > Apparently, being creative
                                    > > and spontaneous and
                                    > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                    > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                    > > permitted if it conflicts
                                    > > with the LEM's outer,
                                    > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                    > >
                                    > > The LEM states that, "We
                                    > > are here to learn." However,
                                    > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                    > > from others since he never
                                    > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                    > > and doesn't partake in
                                    > > two-way dialogues with
                                    > > those under his authority.
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                    > > and unloving as he continues
                                    > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                    > > believe that if they sit still
                                    > > and breathe only enough to
                                    > > sustain life that they may
                                    > > well dodge the lightning
                                    > > strikes of irksome change."
                                    > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                    > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                    > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                    > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                    > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                    > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                    > > that could have be averted
                                    > > if they had gotten proper
                                    > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                    > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                    > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                    > > are meaningless... unless
                                    > > you've given this Black
                                    > > Magician power over you!
                                    > >
                                    > > But, it seems that HK
                                    > > has something else stuck
                                    > > in his craw. It seems to
                                    > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                    > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                    > > still and Contemplating
                                    > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                    > > life. But why shouldn't
                                    > > they take it easy after
                                    > > 40 years of doing PR
                                    > > work for Eckankar!
                                    > >
                                    > > So, what does Klemp
                                    > > the All compassionate,
                                    > > loving, positive, and
                                    > > empathetic icon of EK
                                    > > conclude?
                                    > >
                                    > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                    > > refuses to adhere to
                                    > > the ECK Guidelines
                                    > > needs to be addressed
                                    > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                    > > I wonder what that
                                    > > really means? Well,
                                    > > unless you're already
                                    > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                    > > next initiation good-bye
                                    > > for like 10-20 years!
                                    > >
                                    > > Klemp continues to say,
                                    > > "These are big stakes!
                                    > > Continued refusal means
                                    > > it's time for a replacement
                                    > > to step in. A change is
                                    > > due. Change. isn't it
                                    > > funny how we have come
                                    > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                    > > really funny. Klemp
                                    > > abuses the concept
                                    > > of "change" and makes
                                    > > it into a misnomer.
                                    > >
                                    > > What "changes" are there
                                    > > in Eckankar? The same
                                    > > old things are merely
                                    > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                    > > off and made to seem
                                    > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                    > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                    > > a game of pretend by
                                    > > creating brightly colored
                                    > > straws to grab at and
                                    > > cling to when drowning.
                                    > >
                                    > > Too bad that EKists are
                                    > > so deluded and needy
                                    > > and aren't able to read
                                    > > between the lines and
                                    > > see the real truth behind
                                    > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                    > >
                                    > > Prometheus

                                  • Russ Rodnick
                                    Janice, I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member.  I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Janice,

                                      I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member. 

                                      I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'. 

                                      That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                                      On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                                      I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know. 

                                      Later,
                                      Russ


                                      From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:37 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                                       
                                      Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                                       
                                      Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                                       
                                      That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                                       
                                      In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                                       
                                       I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                                       
                                      The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                                       
                                      It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                                       
                                      When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                                       
                                      Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                                       
                                      I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                                      --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                                       
                                      Hello Janice,
                                      Thanks for the interesting
                                      reply and the sharing of
                                      insights and experiences.
                                      I really really enjoyed it
                                      all.

                                      The reason why someone
                                      knew you received your
                                      pink slip is because the
                                      RESA gets an initiation
                                      eligibility list where he/
                                      she will mark yea/nay
                                      for an initiation. When
                                      the yea is checked the
                                      ESC (membership services)
                                      will more than likely issue
                                      the pink slip for the initiation.
                                      Or, the file has been red
                                      flagged for some reason.
                                      Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                      a temporary hold on higher
                                      initiations. Maybe it's due
                                      to pending requirements
                                      for training/retraining.
                                      The ESC will notify the
                                      RESA when the pink slip
                                      is sent.

                                      Most Eckists don't know
                                      how the initiation process
                                      works.

                                      The RESA has a membership
                                      list generated by the ESC
                                      for all those EKists in their
                                      region and it will show
                                      initiation level, one's status
                                      and date of membership
                                      among other info. If a
                                      new person sends in a
                                      membership form to the
                                      ESC from anywhere in
                                      the RESA's region the RESA
                                      will be notified of who
                                      they are and their mailing
                                      address.

                                      I was glad Ford Johnson
                                      wrote his book and that
                                      I was told about it by an
                                      Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                      The Irony is that he was
                                      doing Public Information
                                      and was quite the gossip.

                                      I always was the skeptic
                                      and had trouble with a lot
                                      of what I saw and experienced
                                      around H.I.s.

                                      When I was a lower initiate
                                      I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                      spiritual nor anywhere close
                                      to being enlightened. There
                                      were too many contradictions,
                                      restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                      Once you're an EK member
                                      the next step is to get you
                                      to become a volunteer on
                                      HK's sales team.

                                      I always wondered how
                                      was there an "inner" connection
                                      to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                      were still smoking and
                                      drinking alcohol, but
                                      getting promoted with
                                      more initiations? I knew
                                      of two 5ths who smoked
                                      and drank and got pink
                                      slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                      that Klemp knows nothing
                                      unless informed via phone
                                      or snailmail... email now!

                                      Yes, Janice, we were the
                                      ones awakened to the Truth
                                      while all of those "Higher"
                                      (pretend) Initiates are still
                                      sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                      become very skilled at
                                      regurgitating the PR and
                                      at facilitating and public
                                      speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                      no idea of what it's like
                                      to be Free thinkers and
                                      free of religion and of the
                                      EK Hierarchy. They think
                                      that their "spiritual experiences"
                                      are unique when these
                                      are common and similar
                                      experiences that all religious
                                      seekers have had... even
                                      Christians!

                                      Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                      in order to fill a void and
                                      to learn some important
                                      lessons about ourselves
                                      and about religion in general.

                                      IMO, Those who left
                                      Eckankar but still have
                                      a need for religion, haven't
                                      really learned that they
                                      will never find answers
                                      via a group consciousness
                                      or via a guru/master.
                                      True, it is nice to know
                                      people of like mind and
                                      to share things, but this
                                      can be a bad thing as well
                                      if we become too attached
                                      or lazy and want to play
                                      follow the leader again.

                                      It all comes down to one's
                                      private and personal experiences
                                      and inner revelations with
                                      oneSelf and with whatever
                                      catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                      Prometheus

                                      Janice wrote:
                                      I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                      Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                      I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                      Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                      How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                      That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                      The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                      Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                      I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                      I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                      I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                      Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                      Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                      Blessings to all of you.


                                      prometheus wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                      > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                      > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                      > and "explorer" positions at
                                      > the EK Centers would trip
                                      > over their egos and go on
                                      > power trips. Many seemed
                                      > cliquish and would huddle
                                      > together. Then, again, some
                                      > weren't all that friendly or
                                      > were very introverted and
                                      > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                      > including the clerics, to
                                      > greet and talk to all of the
                                      > new or seldom seen faces
                                      > that showed up. Many
                                      > only saw other Eckists at
                                      > the monthly EWS and this
                                      > was a time to catch up on
                                      > things. This is why I'd
                                      > suggest going to lunch
                                      > after the EWS and socializing.
                                      >
                                      > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                      > True? I think so!
                                      >
                                      > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                      > and requirements for Eckists
                                      > means that they must take
                                      > on extroverted roles in
                                      > order to become H.I.s.
                                      > Eckists must force themselves,
                                      > against their innate natures,
                                      > to become extroverted and
                                      > egocentric. These leadership
                                      > requirements create conflict,
                                      > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                      > Thus, this imbalance that
                                      > Klemp has created and
                                      > reenforces aids him in
                                      > the brainwashing of his
                                      > flock to have programmed
                                      > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                      > mystical experiences. But,
                                      > this has its toll and is why
                                      > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                      > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                      > and his anal control tactics.
                                      >
                                      > Sometimes, at special
                                      > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                      > and mini retreats the
                                      > long-time H.I.s, former
                                      > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                      > members would gather
                                      > around and gossip about
                                      > those absent or present.
                                      > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                      > gossip but rationalized
                                      > as more of an evaluative/
                                      > investigative discussion
                                      > for possible initiation
                                      > recommendation or for
                                      > a Satsang position appointment.
                                      > They wanted to know,
                                      > from sources who knew
                                      > them, if there were problems
                                      > with these EKists and, if
                                      > so, what the specific details
                                      > were. It was all ego driven
                                      > and subjective because we
                                      > were all volunteers and
                                      > had family and personal
                                      > lives too. But, it did weed
                                      > out those who weren't as
                                      > well indoctrinated....
                                      > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                      > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                      > much always a waste of
                                      > time so, in the long run,
                                      > enthusiasm was probably
                                      > more important than acting
                                      > the part. The Satsang positions
                                      > and duties kept people
                                      > busy, gave them a purpose
                                      > and made them feel good,
                                      > although, very stressed out.
                                      >
                                      > The Initiation game has made
                                      > Eckists struggle with denying
                                      > how much more they want of
                                      > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                      >
                                      > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                      > that an ESA told you that the
                                      > people at the EK Center were
                                      > crazy. That just isn't done
                                      > and is part of HK's agenda
                                      > of Silence and retraining.
                                      >
                                      > There's that old Buddha quote
                                      > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                      > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                      > and this is supposed to keep
                                      > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                      > sometimes get reported:
                                      > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                      > this I ask myself before I
                                      > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                      > following this criteria is very
                                      > subjective and could or would
                                      > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                      > conservations.
                                      >
                                      > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                      > may be "true" for you and
                                      > for most people but not
                                      > not for all people. And, is
                                      > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                      > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                      > this within earshot of people
                                      > who aren't feeling well or
                                      > who can't enjoy the day?
                                      > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                      > to keep the critics of his
                                      > policies and of his H.I.s
                                      > to a minimum.
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                      > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                      > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                      > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                      > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                      > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                      > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                      > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                      > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                      > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                      >
                                      > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                      > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                      >
                                      > Good to be away from it.
                                      >
                                      > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                      > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                      > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                      > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                      > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                      > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                      > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                      > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                      > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                      > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                      > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                      > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                      > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                      > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                      > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                      > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                      > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                      > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                      > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                      > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                      > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                      > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                      > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                      > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                      > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                      > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                      > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                      > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                      >
                                      > Russ wrote:
                                      > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                      > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                      > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                      > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                      >
                                      > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                      > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                      > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                      > things.
                                      >
                                      > Russ
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > prometheus wrote:
                                      > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                      > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                      > that Klemp has enough of
                                      > a problem that he used it
                                      > in the ASK The MASTER
                                      > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                      > And, it was the only question!
                                      > They had, supposedly, an
                                      > H.I. write-in and point out
                                      > the problem. No name given.
                                      >
                                      > I remember when I had
                                      > to deal with some older
                                      > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                      > coordinator and director
                                      > positions and it was
                                      > impossible to get this
                                      > one to follow the Guidelines
                                      > on EK Worship Services
                                      > (EWS). Many long-time
                                      > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                      > Guidelines and my
                                      > RESA turned a blind-
                                      > eye to it all. We had
                                      > so many former RESAs
                                      > in volunteer positions
                                      > that it was impossible
                                      > to get them on the
                                      > same page and to follow
                                      > procedures. I think
                                      > that some were just
                                      > burned out and tired
                                      > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                      > didn't want to leave.
                                      > Maybe they had too
                                      > many friendships to
                                      > lose. Plus, let's face
                                      > it. A lot of these people
                                      > are losers in the real
                                      > world but are big shots
                                      > in Eckankar. Those
                                      > Higher Initiations are
                                      > a big deal to the ego!
                                      >
                                      > Prometheus
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                      > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                      > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                      > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                      > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                      > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                      >
                                      > Non ;)
                                      >
                                      > prometheus wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello All,
                                      > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                      > > Letter I've read that
                                      > > Klemp still needs to
                                      > > update his Guidelines
                                      > > for the H.I.s in the
                                      > > field and chastise
                                      > > those who are slow
                                      > > to get with the program.
                                      > >
                                      > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                      > > want the freedom
                                      > > of Soul to be more
                                      > > individualistic,
                                      > > spontaneous, and
                                      > > creative by thinking
                                      > > they (Soul) can operate
                                      > > outside-of-the-box,
                                      > > thus, being channels
                                      > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                      > > has previously stated
                                      > > that he's imperfect,
                                      > > but that's not the case
                                      > > with the ECK, correct?
                                      > >
                                      > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                      > > their current (Present)
                                      > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                      > > followed versus that
                                      > > of outer set-in-stone
                                      > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                      > > in the Past and approved
                                      > > by a committee of imperfect
                                      > > people on a plane ruled
                                      > > by the KAL?
                                      > >
                                      > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                      > > that freedom of expression
                                      > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                      > > version of ECKankar.
                                      > > It's a hierarchy where
                                      > > everything is spelled
                                      > > out and controlled
                                      > > by him and his secret
                                      > > RESA police, plus, all
                                      > > field work must be
                                      > > approved via the
                                      > > current Guidelines.
                                      > >
                                      > > Many inexperienced
                                      > > EKists like the idea of
                                      > > being told how to do
                                      > > this or that and what
                                      > > approved books to use
                                      > > and what to say and
                                      > > other details to make
                                      > > the promotion of
                                      > > Eckankar easier.
                                      > >
                                      > > But the real point the
                                      > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                      > > is to have EK PR more
                                      > > consistent and cookie
                                      > > cutter looking/sounding
                                      > > for the public.
                                      > >
                                      > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                      > > are like following a
                                      > > recipe set-in-stone
                                      > > that disregards individual
                                      > > or regional tastes and
                                      > > disallows any additions
                                      > > or omissions of other
                                      > > ingredients, methods,
                                      > > and/or spices.
                                      > >
                                      > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                      > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                      > > change. He says they "rock
                                      > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                      > > that "it's all about fear."
                                      > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                      > > and "reinforce in each other
                                      > > a group's opposition to
                                      > > anything new." Strange
                                      > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                      > > subject to fear since he's
                                      > > supposed to protect them!
                                      > > This is how the KAL works.
                                      > > Klemp is his agent.
                                      > >
                                      > > However, the real 'change'
                                      > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                      > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                      > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                      > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                      > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                      > > being bound to dogma.
                                      > > HK side-steps delivering
                                      > > on his promises of protection
                                      > > and never has anything
                                      > > profound to share. And,
                                      > > where are those Higher
                                      > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                      > > yardsticks in measuring
                                      > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                      > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                      > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                      > > stingy and self-serving.
                                      > >
                                      > > Harold goes on to say that
                                      > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                      > > on the path to God instead
                                      > > of being stepping stones."
                                      > > Apparently, being creative
                                      > > and spontaneous and
                                      > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                      > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                      > > permitted if it conflicts
                                      > > with the LEM's outer,
                                      > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                      > >
                                      > > The LEM states that, "We
                                      > > are here to learn." However,
                                      > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                      > > from others since he never
                                      > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                      > > and doesn't partake in
                                      > > two-way dialogues with
                                      > > those under his authority.
                                      > >
                                      > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                      > > and unloving as he continues
                                      > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                      > > believe that if they sit still
                                      > > and breathe only enough to
                                      > > sustain life that they may
                                      > > well dodge the lightning
                                      > > strikes of irksome change."
                                      > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                      > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                      > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                      > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                      > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                      > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                      > > that could have be averted
                                      > > if they had gotten proper
                                      > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                      > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                      > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                      > > are meaningless... unless
                                      > > you've given this Black
                                      > > Magician power over you!
                                      > >
                                      > > But, it seems that HK
                                      > > has something else stuck
                                      > > in his craw. It seems to
                                      > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                      > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                      > > still and Contemplating
                                      > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                      > > life. But why shouldn't
                                      > > they take it easy after
                                      > > 40 years of doing PR
                                      > > work for Eckankar!
                                      > >
                                      > > So, what does Klemp
                                      > > the All compassionate,
                                      > > loving, positive, and
                                      > > empathetic icon of EK
                                      > > conclude?
                                      > >
                                      > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                      > > refuses to adhere to
                                      > > the ECK Guidelines
                                      > > needs to be addressed
                                      > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                      > > I wonder what that
                                      > > really means? Well,
                                      > > unless you're already
                                      > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                      > > next initiation good-bye
                                      > > for like 10-20 years!
                                      > >
                                      > > Klemp continues to say,
                                      > > "These are big stakes!
                                      > > Continued refusal means
                                      > > it's time for a replacement
                                      > > to step in. A change is
                                      > > due. Change. isn't it
                                      > > funny how we have come
                                      > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                      > > really funny. Klemp
                                      > > abuses the concept
                                      > > of "change" and makes
                                      > > it into a misnomer.
                                      > >
                                      > > What "changes" are there
                                      > > in Eckankar? The same
                                      > > old things are merely
                                      > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                      > > off and made to seem
                                      > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                      > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                      > > a game of pretend by
                                      > > creating brightly colored
                                      > > straws to grab at and
                                      > > cling to when drowning.
                                      > >
                                      > > Too bad that EKists are
                                      > > so deluded and needy
                                      > > and aren't able to read
                                      > > between the lines and
                                      > > see the real truth behind
                                      > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                      > >
                                      > > Prometheus
                                      >



                                    • prometheus_973
                                      Hello Russ, Janice, and All, The initiation eligibility list is generated on eckists after they have completed so many years and/or requirements as members in
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
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                                        Hello Russ, Janice, and All,
                                        The initiation eligibility list
                                        is generated on eckists
                                        after they have completed
                                        so many years and/or
                                        requirements as members
                                        in good standing. Delays
                                        in payment of membership
                                        fees (i.e. breaks) or rest
                                        periods will affect people's
                                        names from appearing
                                        on the eligibility list.

                                        Sometimes Eckists can call
                                        Membership Services with
                                        concern that they've been
                                        passed over. If, in fact, they've
                                        waited longer than normal
                                        and there are No red flags
                                        in their file sometimes the
                                        ESC will generate a pink
                                        slip without RESA input.
                                        Plus, it always helps to
                                        know people in high places.
                                        I suggested doing this to
                                        a 4th who had been waiting
                                        longer than normal and
                                        within a month or so she
                                        got her pink slip. Funny!
                                        BTW- I swore her to secrecy
                                        and Not to mention my name!

                                        Many H.I.s don't know about
                                        how the EK Initiation system
                                        really works because it's very
                                        secretive. If anyone shared this
                                        info they would be banned from
                                        holding any Satsang positions,
                                        receiving any more initiations,
                                        and have their file at the ESC
                                        red flagged. [Klemp generally
                                        states that those EKists divulging
                                        secrets will have their spiritual
                                        growth halted, but doesn't say
                                        how it's done].

                                        In any case, I've known people
                                        who suspected their files were
                                        red flagged and was told that
                                        when calling into the ESC to
                                        renew their membership that
                                        when their data came up that
                                        there was a long pause and
                                        the tone of voice of the staffer
                                        changed.

                                        Eckists should know that they
                                        are under scrutiny at all times
                                        and certain innocent comments
                                        or behaviour will stand out to
                                        those judging and looking to
                                        find fault. The devil is in the
                                        details. For Eckists to know
                                        and follow the current Guidelines,
                                        the Four Zoas, to volunteer
                                        and always sound like an EK
                                        Brochure is still not enough.
                                        They need to make friendships
                                        with the H.I.s in their region,
                                        with their RESA, and with those
                                        at the ESC via seminars. One
                                        has to psyche themselves
                                        into seeing all of the flawed,
                                        ego driven, power hungry
                                        H.I.s as their friend whether
                                        it's true or not. And, you still
                                        have to watch what you say.

                                        An example of watching what
                                        you say is to never bring up
                                        Darwin's name. You don't know
                                        whether or not someone within
                                        earshot is going to tell the RESA
                                        about this. There are RESA spys
                                        and members of the RESA's
                                        secret police everywhere.
                                        They might be in "official" roles
                                        but they are used in the same
                                        way. And, don't be talking about
                                        and promoting Metaphysics,
                                        psyche readings, etc. around
                                        Eckists or selling some product,
                                        especially, at the EK Center!
                                        This will get one's next initiation
                                        delayed as well.

                                        As I stated before, those
                                        EKists involved with charting
                                        their ancestry are taking
                                        a chance on being passed
                                        over too. Eckists believe in
                                        reincarnation and Soul, thus,
                                        tracing ancestry and getting
                                        caught up with one's "heritage"
                                        is seen as a moot point, a
                                        distraction, and not being
                                        well grounded in the ECK
                                        teachings. It's seen as a
                                        detriment and will prevent
                                        one from "advancing" to that
                                        next coveted EK initiation.

                                        The initiation game, whether
                                        Eckists want to admit to it
                                        or not, is the most powerful
                                        driving force within Eckankar.

                                        Prometheus

                                        Russ wrote:
                                        Janice,

                                        I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member.

                                        I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'.

                                        That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                                        On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                                        I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know.

                                        Later,
                                        Russ




                                        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Thanks again Prometheus,
                                         
                                        > The very fact that this resa thought I was asking about my own initiations and he had to insist that he had said nothing about me was proof that what I had been told,  was in fact true.  I didn't ask about my own and I said nothing about anything he might have said.  I was asking about how all initiations came about.  Yes, the initial info I got was the computer generated the list and  then the locals were questioned.
                                        >  
                                        > For the longest time I did consider writing Minneapolis about my experiences.  The reason I finally decided against it was, I thought it would only help eckankar sharpen it's con game by telling them about it's weaknesses.  Why help people become better liars and cheaters?
                                        >  
                                        > It never occurred to me to try and take action about the resa screaming at me.  He was clearly out of control.  When I am dealing with a person whose behavior is so erratic, I just can't take their opinions seriously.  Besides, it was just more proof that the whole org ran like a circus filled with clowns and the bigger the nut job, the more likely they would advance.  I don't think klemp himself would give me a straight answer for what I ask and most likely if I got one at all, it wouldn't be an intelligent one.
                                        >  
                                        > According to what you are saying even HI's didn't know the truth about initiations. I take it only those in some kind of local leadership roles were asked about individuals.
                                        >  
                                        > After hearing what  you say, I feel very lucky that I found out as early as I did.  It must be a closely guarded secret. Until now, I assumed that all HI's did know and I couldn't understand why the lies about it kept being perpetuated down. 
                                        >  
                                        > You have given me just what I needed to know.  Most eckist remain in the dark no matter how long they are in.  Wow, that's a mind blower.  You have to admit, it is quite an ingenious con.  I do appreciate your frank answer. 
                                        >  
                                        > As always, thanks for all you give.
                                        >  

                                        prometheus wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello Janice,
                                        > Most H.I.s have no idea
                                        > how the EK Initiation
                                        > process works. It's sad
                                        > because there are some
                                        > really nice and gentile
                                        > chelas who have been
                                        > passed over on the 5th.
                                        > Some died as 4ths when
                                        > they should have had
                                        > some happiness, peace
                                        > of mind, and contentment
                                        > by receiving that 5th.
                                        > I've know several eckists
                                        > where this has happened.
                                        > It was no big deal to give
                                        > them their 5th initiation,
                                        > but some RESAs are mean-
                                        > spirited, lack empathy,
                                        > and are petty. They've
                                        > gotten caught up in HK's
                                        > game. All Eckists should
                                        > get the 5th after no more
                                        > than 20 years, especially,
                                        > when they participate
                                        > and are kept current on
                                        > their membership. However,
                                        > that's not the way the
                                        > power trip is played by
                                        > some RESAs.
                                        >
                                        > I hate to admit this but
                                        > I helped the RESA when
                                        > asked about people. I
                                        > was quizzed about those
                                        > up for, usually, the 5th
                                        > and 6th initiation. I was
                                        > asked about what the EKist
                                        > said, how they acted and
                                        > conducted themselves
                                        > and any unusual things
                                        > that I noticed about
                                        > their behavior or performance.
                                        > And then I was asked for
                                        > my opinion. Unfortunately
                                        > my replies, I know, had
                                        > some initiations delayed
                                        > for these people and I
                                        > regret that I got caught
                                        > up in this petty mind game.
                                        > Some of these people are
                                        > still H.I.s and have no idea
                                        > why they had to wait so
                                        > long for their 5th or 6th.
                                        > Many probably think that
                                        > the Mahanta was testing
                                        > them! LOL! On the other
                                        > hand maybe some of them,
                                        > by now, have been asked
                                        > to evaluate people too.
                                        > I wonder if they put two
                                        > and two together and
                                        > figured it out, unless,
                                        > they were told why like
                                        > I had been told.
                                        >
                                        > Why, though, should
                                        > Klemp have a system
                                        > for initiations that judges
                                        > and punishes Eckists
                                        > based upon our evaluations?
                                        > Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                        > of the Mahanta?
                                        >
                                        > Besides, a 5th is no big
                                        > deal, and it's not like one
                                        > becomes a cleric automatically
                                        > with a 5th. Really, being
                                        > an 5th is no more being
                                        > an official representative
                                        > of Eckankar than is a 4th.
                                        >
                                        > Yes, most Eckists have
                                        > no idea that a computer
                                        > generated eligibility list
                                        > is sent to the RESA by the
                                        > ESC and that phone calls
                                        > are made asking questions
                                        > where subjective answers
                                        > are given and that the RESA
                                        > uses these to either approve
                                        > and give a recommendation
                                        > for initiation or doesn't.
                                        > However, I will say that
                                        > any "No" has to have an
                                        > valid reason. The ESC
                                        > usually follows the RESAs'
                                        > recommendations.
                                        >
                                        > BTW- Janice, I think that
                                        > your RESA approved of
                                        > your initiation because
                                        > he felt guilty for having
                                        > yelled at you, plus, you
                                        > could have reported him
                                        > to the ESC. Maybe the
                                        > initiation approval was
                                        > meant to appease you?
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                        > Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.
                                        >
                                        > Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person?
                                        >
                                        > That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless.
                                        >
                                        > In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?
                                        >
                                        > I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all.
                                        >
                                        > The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his time and hung up.
                                        >
                                        > It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if that was part of it.
                                        >
                                        > When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It was enough.
                                        >
                                        > Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.
                                        >
                                        > I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.
                                        >
                                        > prometheus wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello Janice,
                                        > Thanks for the interesting
                                        > reply and the sharing of
                                        > insights and experiences.
                                        > I really really enjoyed it
                                        > all.
                                        >
                                        > The reason why someone
                                        > knew you received your
                                        > pink slip is because the
                                        > RESA gets an initiation
                                        > eligibility list where he/
                                        > she will mark yea/nay
                                        > for an initiation. When
                                        > the yea is checked the
                                        > ESC (membership services)
                                        > will more than likely issue
                                        > the pink slip for the initiation.
                                        > Or, the file has been red
                                        > flagged for some reason.
                                        > Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                        > a temporary hold on higher
                                        > initiations. Maybe it's due
                                        > to pending requirements
                                        > for training/retraining.
                                        > The ESC will notify the
                                        > RESA when the pink slip
                                        > is sent.
                                        >
                                        > Most Eckists don't know
                                        > how the initiation process
                                        > works.
                                        >
                                        > The RESA has a membership
                                        > list generated by the ESC
                                        > for all those EKists in their
                                        > region and it will show
                                        > initiation level, one's status
                                        > and date of membership
                                        > among other info. If a
                                        > new person sends in a
                                        > membership form to the
                                        > ESC from anywhere in
                                        > the RESA's region the RESA
                                        > will be notified of who
                                        > they are and their mailing
                                        > address.
                                        >
                                        > I was glad Ford Johnson
                                        > wrote his book and that
                                        > I was told about it by an
                                        > Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                        > The Irony is that he was
                                        > doing Public Information
                                        > and was quite the gossip.
                                        >
                                        > I always was the skeptic
                                        > and had trouble with a lot
                                        > of what I saw and experienced
                                        > around H.I.s.
                                        >
                                        > When I was a lower initiate
                                        > I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                        > spiritual nor anywhere close
                                        > to being enlightened. There
                                        > were too many contradictions,
                                        > restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                        > Once you're an EK member
                                        > the next step is to get you
                                        > to become a volunteer on
                                        > HK's sales team.
                                        >
                                        > I always wondered how
                                        > was there an "inner" connection
                                        > to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                        > were still smoking and
                                        > drinking alcohol, but
                                        > getting promoted with
                                        > more initiations? I knew
                                        > of two 5ths who smoked
                                        > and drank and got pink
                                        > slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                        > that Klemp knows nothing
                                        > unless informed via phone
                                        > or snailmail... email now!
                                        >
                                        > Yes, Janice, we were the
                                        > ones awakened to the Truth
                                        > while all of those "Higher"
                                        > (pretend) Initiates are still
                                        > sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                        > become very skilled at
                                        > regurgitating the PR and
                                        > at facilitating and public
                                        > speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                        > no idea of what it's like
                                        > to be Free thinkers and
                                        > free of religion and of the
                                        > EK Hierarchy. They think
                                        > that their "spiritual experiences"
                                        > are unique when these
                                        > are common and similar
                                        > experiences that all religious
                                        > seekers have had... even
                                        > Christians!
                                        >
                                        > Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                        > in order to fill a void and
                                        > to learn some important
                                        > lessons about ourselves
                                        > and about religion in general.
                                        >
                                        > IMO, Those who left
                                        > Eckankar but still have
                                        > a need for religion, haven't
                                        > really learned that they
                                        > will never find answers
                                        > via a group consciousness
                                        > or via a guru/master.
                                        > True, it is nice to know
                                        > people of like mind and
                                        > to share things, but this
                                        > can be a bad thing as well
                                        > if we become too attached
                                        > or lazy and want to play
                                        > follow the leader again.
                                        >
                                        > It all comes down to one's
                                        > private and personal experiences
                                        > and inner revelations with
                                        > oneSelf and with whatever
                                        > catalyst of "divine" creation.
                                        >
                                        > Prometheus
                                        >
                                        > Janice wrote:
                                        > I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.
                                        >
                                        > Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.
                                        >
                                        > I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.
                                        >
                                        > Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.
                                        >
                                        > How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.
                                        >
                                        > That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.
                                        >
                                        > The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.
                                        >
                                        > Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.
                                        >
                                        > I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.
                                        >
                                        > I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.
                                        >
                                        > I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.
                                        >
                                        > Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.
                                        >
                                        > Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.
                                        >
                                        > Blessings to all of you.
                                        >
                                        > prometheus wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                        > > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                        > > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                        > > and "explorer" positions at
                                        > > the EK Centers would trip
                                        > > over their egos and go on
                                        > > power trips. Many seemed
                                        > > cliquish and would huddle
                                        > > together. Then, again, some
                                        > > weren't all that friendly or
                                        > > were very introverted and
                                        > > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                        > > including the clerics, to
                                        > > greet and talk to all of the
                                        > > new or seldom seen faces
                                        > > that showed up. Many
                                        > > only saw other Eckists at
                                        > > the monthly EWS and this
                                        > > was a time to catch up on
                                        > > things. This is why I'd
                                        > > suggest going to lunch
                                        > > after the EWS and socializing.
                                        > >
                                        > > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                        > > True? I think so!
                                        > >
                                        > > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                        > > and requirements for Eckists
                                        > > means that they must take
                                        > > on extroverted roles in
                                        > > order to become H.I.s.
                                        > > Eckists must force themselves,
                                        > > against their innate natures,
                                        > > to become extroverted and
                                        > > egocentric. These leadership
                                        > > requirements create conflict,
                                        > > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                        > > Thus, this imbalance that
                                        > > Klemp has created and
                                        > > reenforces aids him in
                                        > > the brainwashing of his
                                        > > flock to have programmed
                                        > > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                        > > mystical experiences. But,
                                        > > this has its toll and is why
                                        > > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                        > > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                        > > and his anal control tactics.
                                        > >
                                        > > Sometimes, at special
                                        > > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                        > > and mini retreats the
                                        > > long-time H.I.s, former
                                        > > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                        > > members would gather
                                        > > around and gossip about
                                        > > those absent or present.
                                        > > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                        > > gossip but rationalized
                                        > > as more of an evaluative/
                                        > > investigative discussion
                                        > > for possible initiation
                                        > > recommendation or for
                                        > > a Satsang position appointment.
                                        > > They wanted to know,
                                        > > from sources who knew
                                        > > them, if there were problems
                                        > > with these EKists and, if
                                        > > so, what the specific details
                                        > > were. It was all ego driven
                                        > > and subjective because we
                                        > > were all volunteers and
                                        > > had family and personal
                                        > > lives too. But, it did weed
                                        > > out those who weren't as
                                        > > well indoctrinated....
                                        > > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                        > > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                        > > much always a waste of
                                        > > time so, in the long run,
                                        > > enthusiasm was probably
                                        > > more important than acting
                                        > > the part. The Satsang positions
                                        > > and duties kept people
                                        > > busy, gave them a purpose
                                        > > and made them feel good,
                                        > > although, very stressed out.
                                        > >
                                        > > The Initiation game has made
                                        > > Eckists struggle with denying
                                        > > how much more they want of
                                        > > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                        > >
                                        > > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                        > > that an ESA told you that the
                                        > > people at the EK Center were
                                        > > crazy. That just isn't done
                                        > > and is part of HK's agenda
                                        > > of Silence and retraining.
                                        > >
                                        > > There's that old Buddha quote
                                        > > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                        > > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                        > > and this is supposed to keep
                                        > > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                        > > sometimes get reported:
                                        > > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                        > > this I ask myself before I
                                        > > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                        > > following this criteria is very
                                        > > subjective and could or would
                                        > > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                        > > conservations.
                                        > >
                                        > > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                        > > may be "true" for you and
                                        > > for most people but not
                                        > > not for all people. And, is
                                        > > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                        > > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                        > > this within earshot of people
                                        > > who aren't feeling well or
                                        > > who can't enjoy the day?
                                        > > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                        > > to keep the critics of his
                                        > > policies and of his H.I.s
                                        > > to a minimum.
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                        > > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                        > > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                        > > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                        > > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                        > > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                        > > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                        > > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                        > > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                        > > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                        > >
                                        > > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                        > > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                        > >
                                        > > Good to be away from it.
                                        > >
                                        > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                        > > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                        > > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                        > > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                        > > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                        > > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                        > > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                        > > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                        > > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                        > > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                        > > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                        > > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                        > > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                        > > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                        > > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                        > > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                        > > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                        > > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                        > > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                        > > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                        > > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                        > > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                        > > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                        > > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                        > > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                        > > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                        > > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                        > > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                        > >
                                        > > Russ wrote:
                                        > > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                        > > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                        > > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                        > > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                        > >
                                        > > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                        > > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                        > > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                        > > things.
                                        > >
                                        > > Russ
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > prometheus wrote:
                                        > > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                        > > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                        > > that Klemp has enough of
                                        > > a problem that he used it
                                        > > in the ASK The MASTER
                                        > > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                        > > And, it was the only question!
                                        > > They had, supposedly, an
                                        > > H.I. write-in and point out
                                        > > the problem. No name given.
                                        > >
                                        > > I remember when I had
                                        > > to deal with some older
                                        > > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                        > > coordinator and director
                                        > > positions and it was
                                        > > impossible to get this
                                        > > one to follow the Guidelines
                                        > > on EK Worship Services
                                        > > (EWS). Many long-time
                                        > > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                        > > Guidelines and my
                                        > > RESA turned a blind-
                                        > > eye to it all. We had
                                        > > so many former RESAs
                                        > > in volunteer positions
                                        > > that it was impossible
                                        > > to get them on the
                                        > > same page and to follow
                                        > > procedures. I think
                                        > > that some were just
                                        > > burned out and tired
                                        > > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                        > > didn't want to leave.
                                        > > Maybe they had too
                                        > > many friendships to
                                        > > lose. Plus, let's face
                                        > > it. A lot of these people
                                        > > are losers in the real
                                        > > world but are big shots
                                        > > in Eckankar. Those
                                        > > Higher Initiations are
                                        > > a big deal to the ego!
                                        > >
                                        > > Prometheus
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                        > > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                        > > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                        > > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                        > > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                        > > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                        > >
                                        > > Non ;)
                                        > >
                                        > > prometheus wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Hello All,
                                        > > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                        > > > Letter I've read that
                                        > > > Klemp still needs to
                                        > > > update his Guidelines
                                        > > > for the H.I.s in the
                                        > > > field and chastise
                                        > > > those who are slow
                                        > > > to get with the program.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                        > > > want the freedom
                                        > > > of Soul to be more
                                        > > > individualistic,
                                        > > > spontaneous, and
                                        > > > creative by thinking
                                        > > > they (Soul) can operate
                                        > > > outside-of-the-box,
                                        > > > thus, being channels
                                        > > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                        > > > has previously stated
                                        > > > that he's imperfect,
                                        > > > but that's not the case
                                        > > > with the ECK, correct?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                        > > > their current (Present)
                                        > > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                        > > > followed versus that
                                        > > > of outer set-in-stone
                                        > > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                        > > > in the Past and approved
                                        > > > by a committee of imperfect
                                        > > > people on a plane ruled
                                        > > > by the KAL?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                        > > > that freedom of expression
                                        > > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                        > > > version of ECKankar.
                                        > > > It's a hierarchy where
                                        > > > everything is spelled
                                        > > > out and controlled
                                        > > > by him and his secret
                                        > > > RESA police, plus, all
                                        > > > field work must be
                                        > > > approved via the
                                        > > > current Guidelines.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Many inexperienced
                                        > > > EKists like the idea of
                                        > > > being told how to do
                                        > > > this or that and what
                                        > > > approved books to use
                                        > > > and what to say and
                                        > > > other details to make
                                        > > > the promotion of
                                        > > > Eckankar easier.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > But the real point the
                                        > > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                        > > > is to have EK PR more
                                        > > > consistent and cookie
                                        > > > cutter looking/sounding
                                        > > > for the public.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                        > > > are like following a
                                        > > > recipe set-in-stone
                                        > > > that disregards individual
                                        > > > or regional tastes and
                                        > > > disallows any additions
                                        > > > or omissions of other
                                        > > > ingredients, methods,
                                        > > > and/or spices.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                        > > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                        > > > change. He says they "rock
                                        > > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                        > > > that "it's all about fear."
                                        > > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                        > > > and "reinforce in each other
                                        > > > a group's opposition to
                                        > > > anything new." Strange
                                        > > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                        > > > subject to fear since he's
                                        > > > supposed to protect them!
                                        > > > This is how the KAL works.
                                        > > > Klemp is his agent.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > However, the real 'change'
                                        > > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                        > > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                        > > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                        > > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                        > > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                        > > > being bound to dogma.
                                        > > > HK side-steps delivering
                                        > > > on his promises of protection
                                        > > > and never has anything
                                        > > > profound to share. And,
                                        > > > where are those Higher
                                        > > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                        > > > yardsticks in measuring
                                        > > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                        > > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                        > > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                        > > > stingy and self-serving.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Harold goes on to say that
                                        > > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                        > > > on the path to God instead
                                        > > > of being stepping stones."
                                        > > > Apparently, being creative
                                        > > > and spontaneous and
                                        > > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                        > > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                        > > > permitted if it conflicts
                                        > > > with the LEM's outer,
                                        > > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The LEM states that, "We
                                        > > > are here to learn." However,
                                        > > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                        > > > from others since he never
                                        > > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                        > > > and doesn't partake in
                                        > > > two-way dialogues with
                                        > > > those under his authority.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                        > > > and unloving as he continues
                                        > > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                        > > > believe that if they sit still
                                        > > > and breathe only enough to
                                        > > > sustain life that they may
                                        > > > well dodge the lightning
                                        > > > strikes of irksome change."
                                        > > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                        > > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                        > > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                        > > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                        > > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                        > > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                        > > > that could have be averted
                                        > > > if they had gotten proper
                                        > > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                        > > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                        > > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                        > > > are meaningless... unless
                                        > > > you've given this Black
                                        > > > Magician power over you!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > But, it seems that HK
                                        > > > has something else stuck
                                        > > > in his craw. It seems to
                                        > > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                        > > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                        > > > still and Contemplating
                                        > > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                        > > > life. But why shouldn't
                                        > > > they take it easy after
                                        > > > 40 years of doing PR
                                        > > > work for Eckankar!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > So, what does Klemp
                                        > > > the All compassionate,
                                        > > > loving, positive, and
                                        > > > empathetic icon of EK
                                        > > > conclude?
                                        > > >
                                        > > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                        > > > refuses to adhere to
                                        > > > the ECK Guidelines
                                        > > > needs to be addressed
                                        > > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                        > > > I wonder what that
                                        > > > really means? Well,
                                        > > > unless you're already
                                        > > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                        > > > next initiation good-bye
                                        > > > for like 10-20 years!
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Klemp continues to say,
                                        > > > "These are big stakes!
                                        > > > Continued refusal means
                                        > > > it's time for a replacement
                                        > > > to step in. A change is
                                        > > > due. Change. isn't it
                                        > > > funny how we have come
                                        > > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                        > > > really funny. Klemp
                                        > > > abuses the concept
                                        > > > of "change" and makes
                                        > > > it into a misnomer.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > What "changes" are there
                                        > > > in Eckankar? The same
                                        > > > old things are merely
                                        > > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                        > > > off and made to seem
                                        > > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                        > > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                        > > > a game of pretend by
                                        > > > creating brightly colored
                                        > > > straws to grab at and
                                        > > > cling to when drowning.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Too bad that EKists are
                                        > > > so deluded and needy
                                        > > > and aren't able to read
                                        > > > between the lines and
                                        > > > see the real truth behind
                                        > > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Prometheus
                                        >
                                      • Non
                                        Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Dec 15, 2012
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                          Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                          http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                          Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                          In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                          I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                          Blessings

                                          Non ;)

                                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >Hello Janice,
                                          Most H.I.s have no idea
                                          how the EK Initiation
                                          process works. It's sad
                                          because there are some
                                          really nice and gentile
                                          chelas who have been
                                          passed over on the 5th.
                                          Some died as 4ths when
                                          they should have had
                                          some happiness, peace
                                          of mind, and contentment
                                          by receiving that 5th.
                                          I've know several eckists
                                          where this has happened.
                                          It was no big deal to give
                                          them their 5th initiation,
                                          but some RESAs are mean-
                                          spirited, lack empathy,
                                          and are petty. They've
                                          gotten caught up in HK's
                                          game. All Eckists should
                                          get the 5th after no more
                                          than 20 years, especially,
                                          when they participate
                                          and are kept current on
                                          their membership. However,
                                          that's not the way the
                                          power trip is played by
                                          some RESAs.

                                          I hate to admit this but
                                          I helped the RESA when
                                          asked about people. I
                                          was quizzed about those
                                          up for, usually, the 5th
                                          and 6th initiation. I was
                                          asked about what the EKist
                                          said, how they acted and
                                          conducted themselves
                                          and any unusual things
                                          that I noticed about
                                          their behavior or performance.
                                          And then I was asked for
                                          my opinion. Unfortunately
                                          my replies, I know, had
                                          some initiations delayed
                                          for these people and I
                                          regret that I got caught
                                          up in this petty mind game.
                                          Some of these people are
                                          still H.I.s and have no idea
                                          why they had to wait so
                                          long for their 5th or 6th.
                                          Many probably think that
                                          the Mahanta was testing
                                          them! LOL! On the other
                                          hand maybe some of them,
                                          by now, have been asked
                                          to evaluate people too.
                                          I wonder if they put two
                                          and two together and
                                          figured it out, unless,
                                          they were told why like
                                          I had been told.

                                          Why, though, should
                                          Klemp have a system
                                          for initiations that judges
                                          and punishes Eckists
                                          based upon our evaluations?
                                          Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                          of the Mahanta?

                                          Besides, a 5th is no big
                                          deal, and it's not like one
                                          becomes a cleric automatically
                                          with a 5th. Really, being
                                          an 5th is no more being
                                          an official representative
                                          of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                          Yes, most Eckists have
                                          no idea that a computer
                                          generated eligibility list
                                          is sent to the RESA by the
                                          ESC and that phone calls
                                          are made asking questions
                                          where subjective answers
                                          are given and that the RESA
                                          uses these to either approve
                                          and give a recommendation
                                          for initiation or doesn't.
                                          However, I will say that
                                          any "No" has to have an
                                          valid reason. The ESC
                                          usually follows the RESAs'
                                          recommendations.

                                          BTW- Janice, I think that
                                          your RESA approved of
                                          your initiation because
                                          he felt guilty for having
                                          yelled at you, plus, you
                                          could have reported him
                                          to the ESC. Maybe the
                                          initiation approval was
                                          meant to appease you?

                                          Prometheus



                                          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                          Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                          teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                          person?

                                          That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                          was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                          on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                          crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                          that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                          was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                          totally useless.

                                          In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                          about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                          I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                          of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                          didn't use his name at all.

                                          The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                          seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                          had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                          then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                          asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                          times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                          along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                          his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                          point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                          time and hung up.

                                          It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                          up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                          called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                          appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                          paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                          performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                          that was part of it.

                                          When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                          thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                          there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                          was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                          the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                          insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                          was enough.

                                          Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                          true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                          I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                          I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                          opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                          like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                          prometheus wrote:

                                          Hello Janice,
                                          Thanks for the interesting
                                          reply and the sharing of
                                          insights and experiences.
                                          I really really enjoyed it
                                          all.

                                          The reason why someone
                                          knew you received your
                                          pink slip is because the
                                          RESA gets an initiation
                                          eligibility list where he/
                                          she will mark yea/nay
                                          for an initiation. When
                                          the yea is checked the
                                          ESC (membership services)
                                          will more than likely issue
                                          the pink slip for the initiation.
                                          Or, the file has been red
                                          flagged for some reason.
                                          Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                          a temporary hold on higher
                                          initiations. Maybe it's due
                                          to pending requirements
                                          for training/retraining.
                                          The ESC will notify the
                                          RESA when the pink slip
                                          is sent.

                                          Most Eckists don't know
                                          how the initiation process
                                          works.

                                          The RESA has a membership
                                          list generated by the ESC
                                          for all those EKists in their
                                          region and it will show
                                          initiation level, one's status
                                          and date of membership
                                          among other info. If a
                                          new person sends in a
                                          membership form to the
                                          ESC from anywhere in
                                          the RESA's region the RESA
                                          will be notified of who
                                          they are and their mailing
                                          address.

                                          I was glad Ford Johnson
                                          wrote his book and that
                                          I was told about it by an
                                          Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                          The Irony is that he was
                                          doing Public Information
                                          and was quite the gossip.

                                          I always was the skeptic
                                          and had trouble with a lot
                                          of what I saw and experienced
                                          around H.I.s.

                                          When I was a lower initiate
                                          I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                          spiritual nor anywhere close
                                          to being enlightened. There
                                          were too many contradictions,
                                          restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                          Once you're an EK member
                                          the next step is to get you
                                          to become a volunteer on
                                          HK's sales team.

                                          I always wondered how
                                          was there an "inner" connection
                                          to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                          were still smoking and
                                          drinking alcohol, but
                                          getting promoted with
                                          more initiations? I knew
                                          of two 5ths who smoked
                                          and drank and got pink
                                          slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                          that Klemp knows nothing
                                          unless informed via phone
                                          or snailmail... email now!

                                          Yes, Janice, we were the
                                          ones awakened to the Truth
                                          while all of those "Higher"
                                          (pretend) Initiates are still
                                          sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                          become very skilled at
                                          regurgitating the PR and
                                          at facilitating and public
                                          speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                          no idea of what it's like
                                          to be Free thinkers and
                                          free of religion and of the
                                          EK Hierarchy. They think
                                          that their "spiritual experiences"
                                          are unique when these
                                          are common and similar
                                          experiences that all religious
                                          seekers have had... even
                                          Christians!

                                          Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                          in order to fill a void and
                                          to learn some important
                                          lessons about ourselves
                                          and about religion in general.

                                          IMO, Those who left
                                          Eckankar but still have
                                          a need for religion, haven't
                                          really learned that they
                                          will never find answers
                                          via a group consciousness
                                          or via a guru/master.
                                          True, it is nice to know
                                          people of like mind and
                                          to share things, but this
                                          can be a bad thing as well
                                          if we become too attached
                                          or lazy and want to play
                                          follow the leader again.

                                          It all comes down to one's
                                          private and personal experiences
                                          and inner revelations with
                                          oneSelf and with whatever
                                          catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                          Prometheus

                                          Janice wrote:
                                          I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                          it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                          people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                          The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                          new people.

                                          Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                          little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                          to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                          you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                          you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                          to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                          initiations.

                                          I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                          contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                          questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                          he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                          not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                          Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                          me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                          about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                          even.

                                          How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                          supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                          about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                          getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                          seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                          games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                          opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                          Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                          tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                          become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                          That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                          for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                          eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                          instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                          the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                          Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                          lucky that I got out when I did.

                                          The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                          lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                          they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                          in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                          good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                          that point the lies.

                                          Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                          like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                          not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                          define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                          individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                          responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                          after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                          I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                          individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                          the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                          in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                          this.

                                          I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                          maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                          spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                          all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                          the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                          own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                          quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                          I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                          mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                          there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                          Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                          they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                          spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                          slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                          getting out could lead to better things.

                                          Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                          reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                          your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                          to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                          serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                          the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                          are.

                                          Blessings to all of you.


                                          prometheus wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                          > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                          > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                          > and "explorer" positions at
                                          > the EK Centers would trip
                                          > over their egos and go on
                                          > power trips. Many seemed
                                          > cliquish and would huddle
                                          > together. Then, again, some
                                          > weren't all that friendly or
                                          > were very introverted and
                                          > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                          > including the clerics, to
                                          > greet and talk to all of the
                                          > new or seldom seen faces
                                          > that showed up. Many
                                          > only saw other Eckists at
                                          > the monthly EWS and this
                                          > was a time to catch up on
                                          > things. This is why I'd
                                          > suggest going to lunch
                                          > after the EWS and socializing.
                                          >
                                          > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                          > True? I think so!
                                          >
                                          > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                          > and requirements for Eckists
                                          > means that they must take
                                          > on extroverted roles in
                                          > order to become H.I.s.
                                          > Eckists must force themselves,
                                          > against their innate natures,
                                          > to become extroverted and
                                          > egocentric. These leadership
                                          > requirements create conflict,
                                          > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                          > Thus, this imbalance that
                                          > Klemp has created and
                                          > reenforces aids him in
                                          > the brainwashing of his
                                          > flock to have programmed
                                          > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                          > mystical experiences. But,
                                          > this has its toll and is why
                                          > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                          > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                          > and his anal control tactics.
                                          >
                                          > Sometimes, at special
                                          > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                          > and mini retreats the
                                          > long-time H.I.s, former
                                          > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                          > members would gather
                                          > around and gossip about
                                          > those absent or present.
                                          > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                          > gossip but rationalized
                                          > as more of an evaluative/
                                          > investigative discussion
                                          > for possible initiation
                                          > recommendation or for
                                          > a Satsang position appointment.
                                          > They wanted to know,
                                          > from sources who knew
                                          > them, if there were problems
                                          > with these EKists and, if
                                          > so, what the specific details
                                          > were. It was all ego driven
                                          > and subjective because we
                                          > were all volunteers and
                                          > had family and personal
                                          > lives too. But, it did weed
                                          > out those who weren't as
                                          > well indoctrinated....
                                          > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                          > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                          > much always a waste of
                                          > time so, in the long run,
                                          > enthusiasm was probably
                                          > more important than acting
                                          > the part. The Satsang positions
                                          > and duties kept people
                                          > busy, gave them a purpose
                                          > and made them feel good,
                                          > although, very stressed out.
                                          >
                                          > The Initiation game has made
                                          > Eckists struggle with denying
                                          > how much more they want of
                                          > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                          >
                                          > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                          > that an ESA told you that the
                                          > people at the EK Center were
                                          > crazy. That just isn't done
                                          > and is part of HK's agenda
                                          > of Silence and retraining.
                                          >
                                          > There's that old Buddha quote
                                          > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                          > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                          > and this is supposed to keep
                                          > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                          > sometimes get reported:
                                          > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                          > this I ask myself before I
                                          > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                          > following this criteria is very
                                          > subjective and could or would
                                          > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                          > conservations.
                                          >
                                          > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                          > may be "true" for you and
                                          > for most people but not
                                          > not for all people. And, is
                                          > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                          > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                          > this within earshot of people
                                          > who aren't feeling well or
                                          > who can't enjoy the day?
                                          > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                          > to keep the critics of his
                                          > policies and of his H.I.s
                                          > to a minimum.
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                          > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                          > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                          > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                          > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned
                                          off
                                          > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my
                                          job
                                          > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's
                                          been
                                          > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                          > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                          > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                          >
                                          > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                          > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                          >
                                          > Good to be away from it.
                                          >
                                          > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from
                                          the
                                          > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                          > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because
                                          certainly
                                          > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                          > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                          > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                          > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                          > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                          > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                          > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                          > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                          > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any
                                          of
                                          > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                          > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                          > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony.
                                          I
                                          > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me
                                          in
                                          > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                          > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                          > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                          > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                          > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                          > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was
                                          asked
                                          > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                          > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                          > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                          > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                          > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                          > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                          >
                                          > Russ wrote:
                                          > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                          > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set
                                          him
                                          > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                          > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                          >
                                          > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense
                                          of
                                          > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                          > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among
                                          other
                                          > things.
                                          >
                                          > Russ
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > prometheus wrote:
                                          > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                          > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                          > that Klemp has enough of
                                          > a problem that he used it
                                          > in the ASK The MASTER
                                          > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                          > And, it was the only question!
                                          > They had, supposedly, an
                                          > H.I. write-in and point out
                                          > the problem. No name given.
                                          >
                                          > I remember when I had
                                          > to deal with some older
                                          > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                          > coordinator and director
                                          > positions and it was
                                          > impossible to get this
                                          > one to follow the Guidelines
                                          > on EK Worship Services
                                          > (EWS). Many long-time
                                          > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                          > Guidelines and my
                                          > RESA turned a blind-
                                          > eye to it all. We had
                                          > so many former RESAs
                                          > in volunteer positions
                                          > that it was impossible
                                          > to get them on the
                                          > same page and to follow
                                          > procedures. I think
                                          > that some were just
                                          > burned out and tired
                                          > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                          > didn't want to leave.
                                          > Maybe they had too
                                          > many friendships to
                                          > lose. Plus, let's face
                                          > it. A lot of these people
                                          > are losers in the real
                                          > world but are big shots
                                          > in Eckankar. Those
                                          > Higher Initiations are
                                          > a big deal to the ego!
                                          >
                                          > Prometheus
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                          > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones.
                                          I
                                          > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing
                                          to
                                          > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become
                                          brittle
                                          > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity
                                          and
                                          > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                          >
                                          > Non ;)
                                          >
                                          > prometheus wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Hello All,
                                          > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                          > > Letter I've read that
                                          > > Klemp still needs to
                                          > > update his Guidelines
                                          > > for the H.I.s in the
                                          > > field and chastise
                                          > > those who are slow
                                          > > to get with the program.
                                          > >
                                          > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                          > > want the freedom
                                          > > of Soul to be more
                                          > > individualistic,
                                          > > spontaneous, and
                                          > > creative by thinking
                                          > > they (Soul) can operate
                                          > > outside-of-the-box,
                                          > > thus, being channels
                                          > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                          > > has previously stated
                                          > > that he's imperfect,
                                          > > but that's not the case
                                          > > with the ECK, correct?
                                          > >
                                          > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                          > > their current (Present)
                                          > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                          > > followed versus that
                                          > > of outer set-in-stone
                                          > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                          > > in the Past and approved
                                          > > by a committee of imperfect
                                          > > people on a plane ruled
                                          > > by the KAL?
                                          > >
                                          > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                          > > that freedom of expression
                                          > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                          > > version of ECKankar.
                                          > > It's a hierarchy where
                                          > > everything is spelled
                                          > > out and controlled
                                          > > by him and his secret
                                          > > RESA police, plus, all
                                          > > field work must be
                                          > > approved via the
                                          > > current Guidelines.
                                          > >
                                          > > Many inexperienced
                                          > > EKists like the idea of
                                          > > being told how to do
                                          > > this or that and what
                                          > > approved books to use
                                          > > and what to say and
                                          > > other details to make
                                          > > the promotion of
                                          > > Eckankar easier.
                                          > >
                                          > > But the real point the
                                          > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                          > > is to have EK PR more
                                          > > consistent and cookie
                                          > > cutter looking/sounding
                                          > > for the public.
                                          > >
                                          > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                          > > are like following a
                                          > > recipe set-in-stone
                                          > > that disregards individual
                                          > > or regional tastes and
                                          > > disallows any additions
                                          > > or omissions of other
                                          > > ingredients, methods,
                                          > > and/or spices.
                                          > >
                                          > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                          > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                          > > change. He says they "rock
                                          > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                          > > that "it's all about fear."
                                          > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                          > > and "reinforce in each other
                                          > > a group's opposition to
                                          > > anything new." Strange
                                          > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                          > > subject to fear since he's
                                          > > supposed to protect them!
                                          > > This is how the KAL works.
                                          > > Klemp is his agent.
                                          > >
                                          > > However, the real 'change'
                                          > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                          > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                          > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                          > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                          > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                          > > being bound to dogma.
                                          > > HK side-steps delivering
                                          > > on his promises of protection
                                          > > and never has anything
                                          > > profound to share. And,
                                          > > where are those Higher
                                          > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                          > > yardsticks in measuring
                                          > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                          > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                          > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                          > > stingy and self-serving.
                                          > >
                                          > > Harold goes on to say that
                                          > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                          > > on the path to God instead
                                          > > of being stepping stones."
                                          > > Apparently, being creative
                                          > > and spontaneous and
                                          > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                          > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                          > > permitted if it conflicts
                                          > > with the LEM's outer,
                                          > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                          > >
                                          > > The LEM states that, "We
                                          > > are here to learn." However,
                                          > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                          > > from others since he never
                                          > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                          > > and doesn't partake in
                                          > > two-way dialogues with
                                          > > those under his authority.
                                          > >
                                          > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                          > > and unloving as he continues
                                          > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                          > > believe that if they sit still
                                          > > and breathe only enough to
                                          > > sustain life that they may
                                          > > well dodge the lightning
                                          > > strikes of irksome change."
                                          > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                          > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                          > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                          > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                          > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                          > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                          > > that could have be averted
                                          > > if they had gotten proper
                                          > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                          > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                          > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                          > > are meaningless... unless
                                          > > you've given this Black
                                          > > Magician power over you!
                                          > >
                                          > > But, it seems that HK
                                          > > has something else stuck
                                          > > in his craw. It seems to
                                          > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                          > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                          > > still and Contemplating
                                          > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                          > > life. But why shouldn't
                                          > > they take it easy after
                                          > > 40 years of doing PR
                                          > > work for Eckankar!
                                          > >
                                          > > So, what does Klemp
                                          > > the All compassionate,
                                          > > loving, positive, and
                                          > > empathetic icon of EK
                                          > > conclude?
                                          > >
                                          > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                          > > refuses to adhere to
                                          > > the ECK Guidelines
                                          > > needs to be addressed
                                          > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                          > > I wonder what that
                                          > > really means? Well,
                                          > > unless you're already
                                          > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                          > > next initiation good-bye
                                          > > for like 10-20 years!
                                          > >
                                          > > Klemp continues to say,
                                          > > "These are big stakes!
                                          > > Continued refusal means
                                          > > it's time for a replacement
                                          > > to step in. A change is
                                          > > due. Change. isn't it
                                          > > funny how we have come
                                          > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                          > > really funny. Klemp
                                          > > abuses the concept
                                          > > of "change" and makes
                                          > > it into a misnomer.
                                          > >
                                          > > What "changes" are there
                                          > > in Eckankar? The same
                                          > > old things are merely
                                          > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                          > > off and made to seem
                                          > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                          > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                          > > a game of pretend by
                                          > > creating brightly colored
                                          > > straws to grab at and
                                          > > cling to when drowning.
                                          > >
                                          > > Too bad that EKists are
                                          > > so deluded and needy
                                          > > and aren't able to read
                                          > > between the lines and
                                          > > see the real truth behind
                                          > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                          > >
                                          > > Prometheus
                                        • Janice Pfeiffer
                                          I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things.  I should have told you that in response when you told me what
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
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                                            I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things.  I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations.  I did admire you for it also.  I apologize for not telling you then.
                                             
                                            At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time.  There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others. 
                                             
                                            Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join.  I did go in of my own free will like everybody else.  I opened myself up to it, like everybody else.  So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts.  We chose to join eckankar.
                                             
                                            Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it.  You were one of those. 
                                             
                                            Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people?    Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others. 
                                             
                                            I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get.  Do you think those who passed on, do?  It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.
                                             
                                            By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart. 
                                             
                                            Be at peace 
                                             
                                            Janice
                                             
                                             
                                             


                                            --- On Sun, 12/16/12, Non <eckchains@...> wrote:

                                            From: Non <eckchains@...>
                                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Sunday, December 16, 2012, 6:02 AM

                                             
                                            Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                            Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                            http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                            Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                            In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                            I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                            Blessings

                                            Non ;)

                                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >Hello Janice,
                                            Most H.I.s have no idea
                                            how the EK Initiation
                                            process works. It's sad
                                            because there are some
                                            really nice and gentile
                                            chelas who have been
                                            passed over on the 5th.
                                            Some died as 4ths when
                                            they should have had
                                            some happiness, peace
                                            of mind, and contentment
                                            by receiving that 5th.
                                            I've know several eckists
                                            where this has happened.
                                            It was no big deal to give
                                            them their 5th initiation,
                                            but some RESAs are mean-
                                            spirited, lack empathy,
                                            and are petty. They've
                                            gotten caught up in HK's
                                            game. All Eckists should
                                            get the 5th after no more
                                            than 20 years, especially,
                                            when they participate
                                            and are kept current on
                                            their membership. However,
                                            that's not the way the
                                            power trip is played by
                                            some RESAs.

                                            I hate to admit this but
                                            I helped the RESA when
                                            asked about people. I
                                            was quizzed about those
                                            up for, usually, the 5th
                                            and 6th initiation. I was
                                            asked about what the EKist
                                            said, how they acted and
                                            conducted themselves
                                            and any unusual things
                                            that I noticed about
                                            their behavior or performance.
                                            And then I was asked for
                                            my opinion. Unfortunately
                                            my replies, I know, had
                                            some initiations delayed
                                            for these people and I
                                            regret that I got caught
                                            up in this petty mind game.
                                            Some of these people are
                                            still H.I.s and have no idea
                                            why they had to wait so
                                            long for their 5th or 6th.
                                            Many probably think that
                                            the Mahanta was testing
                                            them! LOL! On the other
                                            hand maybe some of them,
                                            by now, have been asked
                                            to evaluate people too.
                                            I wonder if they put two
                                            and two together and
                                            figured it out, unless,
                                            they were told why like
                                            I had been told.

                                            Why, though, should
                                            Klemp have a system
                                            for initiations that judges
                                            and punishes Eckists
                                            based upon our evaluations?
                                            Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                            of the Mahanta?

                                            Besides, a 5th is no big
                                            deal, and it's not like one
                                            becomes a cleric automatically
                                            with a 5th. Really, being
                                            an 5th is no more being
                                            an official representative
                                            of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                            Yes, most Eckists have
                                            no idea that a computer
                                            generated eligibility list
                                            is sent to the RESA by the
                                            ESC and that phone calls
                                            are made asking questions
                                            where subjective answers
                                            are given and that the RESA
                                            uses these to either approve
                                            and give a recommendation
                                            for initiation or doesn't.
                                            However, I will say that
                                            any "No" has to have an
                                            valid reason. The ESC
                                            usually follows the RESAs'
                                            recommendations.

                                            BTW- Janice, I think that
                                            your RESA approved of
                                            your initiation because
                                            he felt guilty for having
                                            yelled at you, plus, you
                                            could have reported him
                                            to the ESC. Maybe the
                                            initiation approval was
                                            meant to appease you?

                                            Prometheus

                                            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                            Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                            Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                            teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                            person?

                                            That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                            was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                            on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                            crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                            that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                            was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                            totally useless.

                                            In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                            about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                            I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                            of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                            didn't use his name at all.

                                            The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                            seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                            had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                            then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                            asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                            times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                            along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                            his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                            point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                            time and hung up.

                                            It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                            up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                            called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                            appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                            paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                            performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                            that was part of it.

                                            When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                            thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                            there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                            was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                            the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                            insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                            was enough.

                                            Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                            true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                            I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                            I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                            opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                            like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                            prometheus wrote:

                                            Hello Janice,
                                            Thanks for the interesting
                                            reply and the sharing of
                                            insights and experiences.
                                            I really really enjoyed it
                                            all.

                                            The reason why someone
                                            knew you received your
                                            pink slip is because the
                                            RESA gets an initiation
                                            eligibility list where he/
                                            she will mark yea/nay
                                            for an initiation. When
                                            the yea is checked the
                                            ESC (membership services)
                                            will more than likely issue
                                            the pink slip for the initiation.
                                            Or, the file has been red
                                            flagged for some reason.
                                            Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                            a temporary hold on higher
                                            initiations. Maybe it's due
                                            to pending requirements
                                            for training/retraining.
                                            The ESC will notify the
                                            RESA when the pink slip
                                            is sent.

                                            Most Eckists don't know
                                            how the initiation process
                                            works.

                                            The RESA has a membership
                                            list generated by the ESC
                                            for all those EKists in their
                                            region and it will show
                                            initiation level, one's status
                                            and date of membership
                                            among other info. If a
                                            new person sends in a
                                            membership form to the
                                            ESC from anywhere in
                                            the RESA's region the RESA
                                            will be notified of who
                                            they are and their mailing
                                            address.

                                            I was glad Ford Johnson
                                            wrote his book and that
                                            I was told about it by an
                                            Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                            The Irony is that he was
                                            doing Public Information
                                            and was quite the gossip.

                                            I always was the skeptic
                                            and had trouble with a lot
                                            of what I saw and experienced
                                            around H.I.s.

                                            When I was a lower initiate
                                            I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                            spiritual nor anywhere close
                                            to being enlightened. There
                                            were too many contradictions,
                                            restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                            Once you're an EK member
                                            the next step is to get you
                                            to become a volunteer on
                                            HK's sales team.

                                            I always wondered how
                                            was there an "inner" connection
                                            to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                            were still smoking and
                                            drinking alcohol, but
                                            getting promoted with
                                            more initiations? I knew
                                            of two 5ths who smoked
                                            and drank and got pink
                                            slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                            that Klemp knows nothing
                                            unless informed via phone
                                            or snailmail... email now!

                                            Yes, Janice, we were the
                                            ones awakened to the Truth
                                            while all of those "Higher"
                                            (pretend) Initiates are still
                                            sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                            become very skilled at
                                            regurgitating the PR and
                                            at facilitating and public
                                            speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                            no idea of what it's like
                                            to be Free thinkers and
                                            free of religion and of the
                                            EK Hierarchy. They think
                                            that their "spiritual experiences"
                                            are unique when these
                                            are common and similar
                                            experiences that all religious
                                            seekers have had... even
                                            Christians!

                                            Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                            in order to fill a void and
                                            to learn some important
                                            lessons about ourselves
                                            and about religion in general.

                                            IMO, Those who left
                                            Eckankar but still have
                                            a need for religion, haven't
                                            really learned that they
                                            will never find answers
                                            via a group consciousness
                                            or via a guru/master.
                                            True, it is nice to know
                                            people of like mind and
                                            to share things, but this
                                            can be a bad thing as well
                                            if we become too attached
                                            or lazy and want to play
                                            follow the leader again.

                                            It all comes down to one's
                                            private and personal experiences
                                            and inner revelations with
                                            oneSelf and with whatever
                                            catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                            Prometheus

                                            Janice wrote:
                                            I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                            it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                            people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                            The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                            new people.

                                            Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                            little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                            to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                            you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                            you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                            to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                            initiations.

                                            I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                            contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                            questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                            he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                            not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                            Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                            me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                            about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                            even.

                                            How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                            supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                            about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                            getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                            seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                            games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                            opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                            Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                            tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                            become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                            That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                            for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                            eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                            instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                            the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                            Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                            lucky that I got out when I did.

                                            The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                            lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                            they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                            in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                            good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                            that point the lies.

                                            Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                            like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                            not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                            define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                            individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                            responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                            after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                            I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                            individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                            the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                            in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                            this.

                                            I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                            maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                            spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                            all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                            the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                            own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                            quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                            I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                            mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                            there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                            Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                            they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                            spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                            slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                            getting out could lead to better things.

                                            Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                            reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                            your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                            to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                            serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                            the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                            are.

                                            Blessings to all of you.

                                            prometheus wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                            > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                            > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                            > and "explorer" positions at
                                            > the EK Centers would trip
                                            > over their egos and go on
                                            > power trips. Many seemed
                                            > cliquish and would huddle
                                            > together. Then, again, some
                                            > weren't all that friendly or
                                            > were very introverted and
                                            > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                            > including the clerics, to
                                            > greet and talk to all of the
                                            > new or seldom seen faces
                                            > that showed up. Many
                                            > only saw other Eckists at
                                            > the monthly EWS and this
                                            > was a time to catch up on
                                            > things. This is why I'd
                                            > suggest going to lunch
                                            > after the EWS and socializing.
                                            >
                                            > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                            > True? I think so!
                                            >
                                            > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                            > and requirements for Eckists
                                            > means that they must take
                                            > on extroverted roles in
                                            > order to become H.I.s.
                                            > Eckists must force themselves,
                                            > against their innate natures,
                                            > to become extroverted and
                                            > egocentric. These leadership
                                            > requirements create conflict,
                                            > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                            > Thus, this imbalance that
                                            > Klemp has created and
                                            > reenforces aids him in
                                            > the brainwashing of his
                                            > flock to have programmed
                                            > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                            > mystical experiences. But,
                                            > this has its toll and is why
                                            > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                            > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                            > and his anal control tactics.
                                            >
                                            > Sometimes, at special
                                            > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                            > and mini retreats the
                                            > long-time H.I.s, former
                                            > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                            > members would gather
                                            > around and gossip about
                                            > those absent or present.
                                            > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                            > gossip but rationalized
                                            > as more of an evaluative/
                                            > investigative discussion
                                            > for possible initiation
                                            > recommendation or for
                                            > a Satsang position appointment.
                                            > They wanted to know,
                                            > from sources who knew
                                            > them, if there were problems
                                            > with these EKists and, if
                                            > so, what the specific details
                                            > were. It was all ego driven
                                            > and subjective because we
                                            > were all volunteers and
                                            > had family and personal
                                            > lives too. But, it did weed
                                            > out those who weren't as
                                            > well indoctrinated....
                                            > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                            > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                            > much always a waste of
                                            > time so, in the long run,
                                            > enthusiasm was probably
                                            > more important than acting
                                            > the part. The Satsang positions
                                            > and duties kept people
                                            > busy, gave them a purpose
                                            > and made them feel good,
                                            > although, very stressed out.
                                            >
                                            > The Initiation game has made
                                            > Eckists struggle with denying
                                            > how much more they want of
                                            > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                            >
                                            > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                            > that an ESA told you that the
                                            > people at the EK Center were
                                            > crazy. That just isn't done
                                            > and is part of HK's agenda
                                            > of Silence and retraining.
                                            >
                                            > There's that old Buddha quote
                                            > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                            > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                            > and this is supposed to keep
                                            > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                            > sometimes get reported:
                                            > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                            > this I ask myself before I
                                            > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                            > following this criteria is very
                                            > subjective and could or would
                                            > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                            > conservations.
                                            >
                                            > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                            > may be "true" for you and
                                            > for most people but not
                                            > not for all people. And, is
                                            > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                            > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                            > this within earshot of people
                                            > who aren't feeling well or
                                            > who can't enjoy the day?
                                            > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                            > to keep the critics of his
                                            > policies and of his H.I.s
                                            > to a minimum.
                                            >
                                            > Prometheus
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                            > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                            > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                            > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                            > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned
                                            off
                                            > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my
                                            job
                                            > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's
                                            been
                                            > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                            > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                            > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                            >
                                            > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                            > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                            >
                                            > Good to be away from it.
                                            >
                                            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from
                                            the
                                            > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                            > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because
                                            certainly
                                            > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                            > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                            > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                            > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                            > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                            > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                            > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                            > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                            > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any
                                            of
                                            > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                            > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                            > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony.
                                            I
                                            > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me
                                            in
                                            > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                            > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                            > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                            > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                            > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                            > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was
                                            asked
                                            > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                            > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                            > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                            > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                            > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                            > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                            >
                                            > Russ wrote:
                                            > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                            > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set
                                            him
                                            > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                            > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                            >
                                            > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense
                                            of
                                            > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                            > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among
                                            other
                                            > things.
                                            >
                                            > Russ
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > prometheus wrote:
                                            > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                            > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                            > that Klemp has enough of
                                            > a problem that he used it
                                            > in the ASK The MASTER
                                            > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                            > And, it was the only question!
                                            > They had, supposedly, an
                                            > H.I. write-in and point out
                                            > the problem. No name given.
                                            >
                                            > I remember when I had
                                            > to deal with some older
                                            > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                            > coordinator and director
                                            > positions and it was
                                            > impossible to get this
                                            > one to follow the Guidelines
                                            > on EK Worship Services
                                            > (EWS). Many long-time
                                            > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                            > Guidelines and my
                                            > RESA turned a blind-
                                            > eye to it all. We had
                                            > so many former RESAs
                                            > in volunteer positions
                                            > that it was impossible
                                            > to get them on the
                                            > same page and to follow
                                            > procedures. I think
                                            > that some were just
                                            > burned out and tired
                                            > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                            > didn't want to leave.
                                            > Maybe they had too
                                            > many friendships to
                                            > lose. Plus, let's face
                                            > it. A lot of these people
                                            > are losers in the real
                                            > world but are big shots
                                            > in Eckankar. Those
                                            > Higher Initiations are
                                            > a big deal to the ego!
                                            >
                                            > Prometheus
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                            > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones.
                                            I
                                            > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing
                                            to
                                            > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become
                                            brittle
                                            > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity
                                            and
                                            > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                            >
                                            > Non ;)
                                            >
                                            > prometheus wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > Hello All,
                                            > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                            > > Letter I've read that
                                            > > Klemp still needs to
                                            > > update his Guidelines
                                            > > for the H.I.s in the
                                            > > field and chastise
                                            > > those who are slow
                                            > > to get with the program.
                                            > >
                                            > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                            > > want the freedom
                                            > > of Soul to be more
                                            > > individualistic,
                                            > > spontaneous, and
                                            > > creative by thinking
                                            > > they (Soul) can operate
                                            > > outside-of-the-box,
                                            > > thus, being channels
                                            > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                            > > has previously stated
                                            > > that he's imperfect,
                                            > > but that's not the case
                                            > > with the ECK, correct?
                                            > >
                                            > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                            > > their current (Present)
                                            > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                            > > followed versus that
                                            > > of outer set-in-stone
                                            > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                            > > in the Past and approved
                                            > > by a committee of imperfect
                                            > > people on a plane ruled
                                            > > by the KAL?
                                            > >
                                            > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                            > > that freedom of expression
                                            > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                            > > version of ECKankar.
                                            > > It's a hierarchy where
                                            > > everything is spelled
                                            > > out and controlled
                                            > > by him and his secret
                                            > > RESA police, plus, all
                                            > > field work must be
                                            > > approved via the
                                            > > current Guidelines.
                                            > >
                                            > > Many inexperienced
                                            > > EKists like the idea of
                                            > > being told how to do
                                            > > this or that and what
                                            > > approved books to use
                                            > > and what to say and
                                            > > other details to make
                                            > > the promotion of
                                            > > Eckankar easier.
                                            > >
                                            > > But the real point the
                                            > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                            > > is to have EK PR more
                                            > > consistent and cookie
                                            > > cutter looking/sounding
                                            > > for the public.
                                            > >
                                            > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                            > > are like following a
                                            > > recipe set-in-stone
                                            > > that disregards individual
                                            > > or regional tastes and
                                            > > disallows any additions
                                            > > or omissions of other
                                            > > ingredients, methods,
                                            > > and/or spices.
                                            > >
                                            > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                            > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                            > > change. He says they "rock
                                            > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                            > > that "it's all about fear."
                                            > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                            > > and "reinforce in each other
                                            > > a group's opposition to
                                            > > anything new." Strange
                                            > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                            > > subject to fear since he's
                                            > > supposed to protect them!
                                            > > This is how the KAL works.
                                            > > Klemp is his agent.
                                            > >
                                            > > However, the real 'change'
                                            > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                            > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                            > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                            > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                            > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                            > > being bound to dogma.
                                            > > HK side-steps delivering
                                            > > on his promises of protection
                                            > > and never has anything
                                            > > profound to share. And,
                                            > > where are those Higher
                                            > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                            > > yardsticks in measuring
                                            > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                            > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                            > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                            > > stingy and self-serving.
                                            > >
                                            > > Harold goes on to say that
                                            > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                            > > on the path to God instead
                                            > > of being stepping stones."
                                            > > Apparently, being creative
                                            > > and spontaneous and
                                            > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                            > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                            > > permitted if it conflicts
                                            > > with the LEM's outer,
                                            > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                            > >
                                            > > The LEM states that, "We
                                            > > are here to learn." However,
                                            > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                            > > from others since he never
                                            > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                            > > and doesn't partake in
                                            > > two-way dialogues with
                                            > > those under his authority.
                                            > >
                                            > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                            > > and unloving as he continues
                                            > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                            > > believe that if they sit still
                                            > > and breathe only enough to
                                            > > sustain life that they may
                                            > > well dodge the lightning
                                            > > strikes of irksome change."
                                            > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                            > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                            > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                            > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                            > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                            > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                            > > that could have be averted
                                            > > if they had gotten proper
                                            > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                            > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                            > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                            > > are meaningless... unless
                                            > > you've given this Black
                                            > > Magician power over you!
                                            > >
                                            > > But, it seems that HK
                                            > > has something else stuck
                                            > > in his craw. It seems to
                                            > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                            > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                            > > still and Contemplating
                                            > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                            > > life. But why shouldn't
                                            > > they take it easy after
                                            > > 40 years of doing PR
                                            > > work for Eckankar!
                                            > >
                                            > > So, what does Klemp
                                            > > the All compassionate,
                                            > > loving, positive, and
                                            > > empathetic icon of EK
                                            > > conclude?
                                            > >
                                            > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                            > > refuses to adhere to
                                            > > the ECK Guidelines
                                            > > needs to be addressed
                                            > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                            > > I wonder what that
                                            > > really means? Well,
                                            > > unless you're already
                                            > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                            > > next initiation good-bye
                                            > > for like 10-20 years!
                                            > >
                                            > > Klemp continues to say,
                                            > > "These are big stakes!
                                            > > Continued refusal means
                                            > > it's time for a replacement
                                            > > to step in. A change is
                                            > > due. Change. isn't it
                                            > > funny how we have come
                                            > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                            > > really funny. Klemp
                                            > > abuses the concept
                                            > > of "change" and makes
                                            > > it into a misnomer.
                                            > >
                                            > > What "changes" are there
                                            > > in Eckankar? The same
                                            > > old things are merely
                                            > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                            > > off and made to seem
                                            > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                            > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                            > > a game of pretend by
                                            > > creating brightly colored
                                            > > straws to grab at and
                                            > > cling to when drowning.
                                            > >
                                            > > Too bad that EKists are
                                            > > so deluded and needy
                                            > > and aren't able to read
                                            > > between the lines and
                                            > > see the real truth behind
                                            > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                            > >
                                            > > Prometheus

                                          • Janice Pfeiffer
                                            Hi Russ,   I am sorry if my talk about initiations disturbed you in any way.  It is a disturbing thing to come to grips with since you are told right from
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Hi Russ,
                                               
                                              I am sorry if my talk about initiations disturbed you in any way.  It is a disturbing thing to come to grips with since you are told right from the start that those sacred initiations come from the mahanta. 
                                               
                                              I hope all goes well with you as you take the final stages of leaving eckankar.  I hope you will find comfort in knowing that you can stand on your own and any growth you had while in, you still have.  All along you were doing it for yourself, and you still can.
                                               
                                              I know you have the strength and courage to do anything you feel you have to do.  I hope you know that this site is a great place to get support should you needed. 
                                               
                                              Please know I will be thinking of you in the coming weeks and I will be sending warm thoughts your way.
                                               
                                              Keep your chin up and please know you are a very good person person.
                                               
                                              Janice

                                              --- On Sat, 12/15/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                                              From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                              To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 3:35 PM

                                               
                                              Janice,

                                              I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member. 

                                              I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'. 

                                              That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                                              On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                                              I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know. 

                                              Later,
                                              Russ


                                              From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:37 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                                               
                                              Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                                               
                                              Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                                               
                                              That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                                               
                                              In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                                               
                                               I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                                               
                                              The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                                               
                                              It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                                               
                                              When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                                               
                                              Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                                               
                                              I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                                              --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                                               
                                              Hello Janice,
                                              Thanks for the interesting
                                              reply and the sharing of
                                              insights and experiences.
                                              I really really enjoyed it
                                              all.

                                              The reason why someone
                                              knew you received your
                                              pink slip is because the
                                              RESA gets an initiation
                                              eligibility list where he/
                                              she will mark yea/nay
                                              for an initiation. When
                                              the yea is checked the
                                              ESC (membership services)
                                              will more than likely issue
                                              the pink slip for the initiation.
                                              Or, the file has been red
                                              flagged for some reason.
                                              Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                              a temporary hold on higher
                                              initiations. Maybe it's due
                                              to pending requirements
                                              for training/retraining.
                                              The ESC will notify the
                                              RESA when the pink slip
                                              is sent.

                                              Most Eckists don't know
                                              how the initiation process
                                              works.

                                              The RESA has a membership
                                              list generated by the ESC
                                              for all those EKists in their
                                              region and it will show
                                              initiation level, one's status
                                              and date of membership
                                              among other info. If a
                                              new person sends in a
                                              membership form to the
                                              ESC from anywhere in
                                              the RESA's region the RESA
                                              will be notified of who
                                              they are and their mailing
                                              address.

                                              I was glad Ford Johnson
                                              wrote his book and that
                                              I was told about it by an
                                              Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                              The Irony is that he was
                                              doing Public Information
                                              and was quite the gossip.

                                              I always was the skeptic
                                              and had trouble with a lot
                                              of what I saw and experienced
                                              around H.I.s.

                                              When I was a lower initiate
                                              I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                              spiritual nor anywhere close
                                              to being enlightened. There
                                              were too many contradictions,
                                              restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                              Once you're an EK member
                                              the next step is to get you
                                              to become a volunteer on
                                              HK's sales team.

                                              I always wondered how
                                              was there an "inner" connection
                                              to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                              were still smoking and
                                              drinking alcohol, but
                                              getting promoted with
                                              more initiations? I knew
                                              of two 5ths who smoked
                                              and drank and got pink
                                              slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                              that Klemp knows nothing
                                              unless informed via phone
                                              or snailmail... email now!

                                              Yes, Janice, we were the
                                              ones awakened to the Truth
                                              while all of those "Higher"
                                              (pretend) Initiates are still
                                              sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                              become very skilled at
                                              regurgitating the PR and
                                              at facilitating and public
                                              speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                              no idea of what it's like
                                              to be Free thinkers and
                                              free of religion and of the
                                              EK Hierarchy. They think
                                              that their "spiritual experiences"
                                              are unique when these
                                              are common and similar
                                              experiences that all religious
                                              seekers have had... even
                                              Christians!

                                              Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                              in order to fill a void and
                                              to learn some important
                                              lessons about ourselves
                                              and about religion in general.

                                              IMO, Those who left
                                              Eckankar but still have
                                              a need for religion, haven't
                                              really learned that they
                                              will never find answers
                                              via a group consciousness
                                              or via a guru/master.
                                              True, it is nice to know
                                              people of like mind and
                                              to share things, but this
                                              can be a bad thing as well
                                              if we become too attached
                                              or lazy and want to play
                                              follow the leader again.

                                              It all comes down to one's
                                              private and personal experiences
                                              and inner revelations with
                                              oneSelf and with whatever
                                              catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                              Prometheus

                                              Janice wrote:
                                              I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                              Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                              I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                              Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                              How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                              That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                              The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                              Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                              I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                              I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                              I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                              Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                              Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                              Blessings to all of you.


                                              prometheus wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                              > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                              > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                              > and "explorer" positions at
                                              > the EK Centers would trip
                                              > over their egos and go on
                                              > power trips. Many seemed
                                              > cliquish and would huddle
                                              > together. Then, again, some
                                              > weren't all that friendly or
                                              > were very introverted and
                                              > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                              > including the clerics, to
                                              > greet and talk to all of the
                                              > new or seldom seen faces
                                              > that showed up. Many
                                              > only saw other Eckists at
                                              > the monthly EWS and this
                                              > was a time to catch up on
                                              > things. This is why I'd
                                              > suggest going to lunch
                                              > after the EWS and socializing.
                                              >
                                              > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                              > True? I think so!
                                              >
                                              > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                              > and requirements for Eckists
                                              > means that they must take
                                              > on extroverted roles in
                                              > order to become H.I.s.
                                              > Eckists must force themselves,
                                              > against their innate natures,
                                              > to become extroverted and
                                              > egocentric. These leadership
                                              > requirements create conflict,
                                              > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                              > Thus, this imbalance that
                                              > Klemp has created and
                                              > reenforces aids him in
                                              > the brainwashing of his
                                              > flock to have programmed
                                              > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                              > mystical experiences. But,
                                              > this has its toll and is why
                                              > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                              > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                              > and his anal control tactics.
                                              >
                                              > Sometimes, at special
                                              > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                              > and mini retreats the
                                              > long-time H.I.s, former
                                              > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                              > members would gather
                                              > around and gossip about
                                              > those absent or present.
                                              > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                              > gossip but rationalized
                                              > as more of an evaluative/
                                              > investigative discussion
                                              > for possible initiation
                                              > recommendation or for
                                              > a Satsang position appointment.
                                              > They wanted to know,
                                              > from sources who knew
                                              > them, if there were problems
                                              > with these EKists and, if
                                              > so, what the specific details
                                              > were. It was all ego driven
                                              > and subjective because we
                                              > were all volunteers and
                                              > had family and personal
                                              > lives too. But, it did weed
                                              > out those who weren't as
                                              > well indoctrinated....
                                              > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                              > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                              > much always a waste of
                                              > time so, in the long run,
                                              > enthusiasm was probably
                                              > more important than acting
                                              > the part. The Satsang positions
                                              > and duties kept people
                                              > busy, gave them a purpose
                                              > and made them feel good,
                                              > although, very stressed out.
                                              >
                                              > The Initiation game has made
                                              > Eckists struggle with denying
                                              > how much more they want of
                                              > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                              >
                                              > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                              > that an ESA told you that the
                                              > people at the EK Center were
                                              > crazy. That just isn't done
                                              > and is part of HK's agenda
                                              > of Silence and retraining.
                                              >
                                              > There's that old Buddha quote
                                              > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                              > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                              > and this is supposed to keep
                                              > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                              > sometimes get reported:
                                              > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                              > this I ask myself before I
                                              > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                              > following this criteria is very
                                              > subjective and could or would
                                              > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                              > conservations.
                                              >
                                              > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                              > may be "true" for you and
                                              > for most people but not
                                              > not for all people. And, is
                                              > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                              > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                              > this within earshot of people
                                              > who aren't feeling well or
                                              > who can't enjoy the day?
                                              > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                              > to keep the critics of his
                                              > policies and of his H.I.s
                                              > to a minimum.
                                              >
                                              > Prometheus
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                              > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                              > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                              > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                              > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                              > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                              > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                              > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                              > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                              > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                              >
                                              > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                              > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                              >
                                              > Good to be away from it.
                                              >
                                              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                              > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                              > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                              > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                              > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                              > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                              > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                              > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                              > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                              > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                              > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                              > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                              > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                              > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                              > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                              > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                              > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                              > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                              > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                              > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                              > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                              > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                              > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                              > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                              > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                              > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                              > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                              > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                              >
                                              > Russ wrote:
                                              > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                              > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                              > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                              > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                              >
                                              > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                              > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                              > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                              > things.
                                              >
                                              > Russ
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > prometheus wrote:
                                              > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                              > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                              > that Klemp has enough of
                                              > a problem that he used it
                                              > in the ASK The MASTER
                                              > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                              > And, it was the only question!
                                              > They had, supposedly, an
                                              > H.I. write-in and point out
                                              > the problem. No name given.
                                              >
                                              > I remember when I had
                                              > to deal with some older
                                              > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                              > coordinator and director
                                              > positions and it was
                                              > impossible to get this
                                              > one to follow the Guidelines
                                              > on EK Worship Services
                                              > (EWS). Many long-time
                                              > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                              > Guidelines and my
                                              > RESA turned a blind-
                                              > eye to it all. We had
                                              > so many former RESAs
                                              > in volunteer positions
                                              > that it was impossible
                                              > to get them on the
                                              > same page and to follow
                                              > procedures. I think
                                              > that some were just
                                              > burned out and tired
                                              > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                              > didn't want to leave.
                                              > Maybe they had too
                                              > many friendships to
                                              > lose. Plus, let's face
                                              > it. A lot of these people
                                              > are losers in the real
                                              > world but are big shots
                                              > in Eckankar. Those
                                              > Higher Initiations are
                                              > a big deal to the ego!
                                              >
                                              > Prometheus
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                              > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                              > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                              > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                              > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                              > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                              >
                                              > Non ;)
                                              >
                                              > prometheus wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Hello All,
                                              > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                              > > Letter I've read that
                                              > > Klemp still needs to
                                              > > update his Guidelines
                                              > > for the H.I.s in the
                                              > > field and chastise
                                              > > those who are slow
                                              > > to get with the program.
                                              > >
                                              > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                              > > want the freedom
                                              > > of Soul to be more
                                              > > individualistic,
                                              > > spontaneous, and
                                              > > creative by thinking
                                              > > they (Soul) can operate
                                              > > outside-of-the-box,
                                              > > thus, being channels
                                              > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                              > > has previously stated
                                              > > that he's imperfect,
                                              > > but that's not the case
                                              > > with the ECK, correct?
                                              > >
                                              > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                              > > their current (Present)
                                              > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                              > > followed versus that
                                              > > of outer set-in-stone
                                              > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                              > > in the Past and approved
                                              > > by a committee of imperfect
                                              > > people on a plane ruled
                                              > > by the KAL?
                                              > >
                                              > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                              > > that freedom of expression
                                              > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                              > > version of ECKankar.
                                              > > It's a hierarchy where
                                              > > everything is spelled
                                              > > out and controlled
                                              > > by him and his secret
                                              > > RESA police, plus, all
                                              > > field work must be
                                              > > approved via the
                                              > > current Guidelines.
                                              > >
                                              > > Many inexperienced
                                              > > EKists like the idea of
                                              > > being told how to do
                                              > > this or that and what
                                              > > approved books to use
                                              > > and what to say and
                                              > > other details to make
                                              > > the promotion of
                                              > > Eckankar easier.
                                              > >
                                              > > But the real point the
                                              > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                              > > is to have EK PR more
                                              > > consistent and cookie
                                              > > cutter looking/sounding
                                              > > for the public.
                                              > >
                                              > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                              > > are like following a
                                              > > recipe set-in-stone
                                              > > that disregards individual
                                              > > or regional tastes and
                                              > > disallows any additions
                                              > > or omissions of other
                                              > > ingredients, methods,
                                              > > and/or spices.
                                              > >
                                              > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                              > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                              > > change. He says they "rock
                                              > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                              > > that "it's all about fear."
                                              > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                              > > and "reinforce in each other
                                              > > a group's opposition to
                                              > > anything new." Strange
                                              > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                              > > subject to fear since he's
                                              > > supposed to protect them!
                                              > > This is how the KAL works.
                                              > > Klemp is his agent.
                                              > >
                                              > > However, the real 'change'
                                              > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                              > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                              > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                              > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                              > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                              > > being bound to dogma.
                                              > > HK side-steps delivering
                                              > > on his promises of protection
                                              > > and never has anything
                                              > > profound to share. And,
                                              > > where are those Higher
                                              > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                              > > yardsticks in measuring
                                              > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                              > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                              > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                              > > stingy and self-serving.
                                              > >
                                              > > Harold goes on to say that
                                              > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                              > > on the path to God instead
                                              > > of being stepping stones."
                                              > > Apparently, being creative
                                              > > and spontaneous and
                                              > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                              > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                              > > permitted if it conflicts
                                              > > with the LEM's outer,
                                              > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                              > >
                                              > > The LEM states that, "We
                                              > > are here to learn." However,
                                              > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                              > > from others since he never
                                              > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                              > > and doesn't partake in
                                              > > two-way dialogues with
                                              > > those under his authority.
                                              > >
                                              > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                              > > and unloving as he continues
                                              > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                              > > believe that if they sit still
                                              > > and breathe only enough to
                                              > > sustain life that they may
                                              > > well dodge the lightning
                                              > > strikes of irksome change."
                                              > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                              > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                              > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                              > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                              > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                              > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                              > > that could have be averted
                                              > > if they had gotten proper
                                              > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                              > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                              > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                              > > are meaningless... unless
                                              > > you've given this Black
                                              > > Magician power over you!
                                              > >
                                              > > But, it seems that HK
                                              > > has something else stuck
                                              > > in his craw. It seems to
                                              > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                              > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                              > > still and Contemplating
                                              > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                              > > life. But why shouldn't
                                              > > they take it easy after
                                              > > 40 years of doing PR
                                              > > work for Eckankar!
                                              > >
                                              > > So, what does Klemp
                                              > > the All compassionate,
                                              > > loving, positive, and
                                              > > empathetic icon of EK
                                              > > conclude?
                                              > >
                                              > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                              > > refuses to adhere to
                                              > > the ECK Guidelines
                                              > > needs to be addressed
                                              > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                              > > I wonder what that
                                              > > really means? Well,
                                              > > unless you're already
                                              > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                              > > next initiation good-bye
                                              > > for like 10-20 years!
                                              > >
                                              > > Klemp continues to say,
                                              > > "These are big stakes!
                                              > > Continued refusal means
                                              > > it's time for a replacement
                                              > > to step in. A change is
                                              > > due. Change. isn't it
                                              > > funny how we have come
                                              > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                              > > really funny. Klemp
                                              > > abuses the concept
                                              > > of "change" and makes
                                              > > it into a misnomer.
                                              > >
                                              > > What "changes" are there
                                              > > in Eckankar? The same
                                              > > old things are merely
                                              > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                              > > off and made to seem
                                              > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                              > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                              > > a game of pretend by
                                              > > creating brightly colored
                                              > > straws to grab at and
                                              > > cling to when drowning.
                                              > >
                                              > > Too bad that EKists are
                                              > > so deluded and needy
                                              > > and aren't able to read
                                              > > between the lines and
                                              > > see the real truth behind
                                              > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                              > >
                                              > > Prometheus
                                              >



                                            • Russ Rodnick
                                              Janice, you are so kind , thank you. Russ ________________________________ From: Janice Pfeiffer To:
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Janice,
                                                you are so kind , thank you.

                                                Russ


                                                From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 2:35 AM
                                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                                                 
                                                Hi Russ,
                                                 
                                                I am sorry if my talk about initiations disturbed you in any way.  It is a disturbing thing to come to grips with since you are told right from the start that those sacred initiations come from the mahanta. 
                                                 
                                                I hope all goes well with you as you take the final stages of leaving eckankar.  I hope you will find comfort in knowing that you can stand on your own and any growth you had while in, you still have.  All along you were doing it for yourself, and you still can.
                                                 
                                                I know you have the strength and courage to do anything you feel you have to do.  I hope you know that this site is a great place to get support should you needed. 
                                                 
                                                Please know I will be thinking of you in the coming weeks and I will be sending warm thoughts your way.
                                                 
                                                Keep your chin up and please know you are a very good person person.
                                                 
                                                Janice

                                                --- On Sat, 12/15/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                                                From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                                To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 3:35 PM

                                                 
                                                Janice,

                                                I was an HI for 12 years and this is my last year as a dues paying member. 

                                                I never knew there was local area input to esc concerning initiations and I am shocked to learn it was institutionalized, as you say. I guess I wasn't in the 'in-crowd'. 

                                                That said, I have mixed feeling concerning these initiations. I approached them with reverence and I always felt up-lifted after them, for some time. I really felt changed.

                                                On the other hand, I think that it was the group consciousness and my expectations that had a hand in my experience. I am so suggestible.

                                                I respect your attitude and actions when you learned how this process was conducted. I don't know I would have been so quick to give it all up because I was a fraidy cat. Just part of my personal history when it comes to leaving what I know. 

                                                Later,
                                                Russ


                                                From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                                Sent: Friday, December 14, 2012 11:37 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"

                                                 
                                                Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement. 
                                                 
                                                Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area person? 
                                                 
                                                That was what angered me so much.  The teachings described it as something that was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready.  To find it was based on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most crushing thing I ever learned.  After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation was more than I could tolerate.  It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations totally useless. 
                                                 
                                                In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey? 
                                                 
                                                 I learned it by accident.  It was a slip of the tongue by an HI.  He was afraid of the effect his slip would have on himself.  When I questioned the resa, I didn't use his name at all. 
                                                 
                                                The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations.  He resonded by sayng he had said nothing concerning me.  I had to repeat the question several times.  He then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was asking.  I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer.  At all times I was respectful.  It was then he began yelling about my inability to get along with others.  Duh, where did this come from.  When I asked a third time, his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me.  At this point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know.  I thanked him for his time and hung up. 
                                                 
                                                It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed up.  It really teed me off to see it.  A couple of days later, the eck person called to inquire about my getting one.  I told no one about getting it so it appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it.  I was also performing and paying for a service the local area really needed.  I wondered if that was part of it. 
                                                 
                                                When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I thought about all of it.  I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and there could be repurcussions.  I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response.  I was sure the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist.  It was enough. 
                                                 
                                                Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are true to the best of my ability.  A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and I didn't feel intimidated.  The game was over.  That's how I left. 
                                                 
                                                I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local opinion.  If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it.  I would like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it.  Thanks so much.
                                                --- On Sat, 12/15/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                                Date: Saturday, December 15, 2012, 2:55 AM

                                                 
                                                Hello Janice,
                                                Thanks for the interesting
                                                reply and the sharing of
                                                insights and experiences.
                                                I really really enjoyed it
                                                all.

                                                The reason why someone
                                                knew you received your
                                                pink slip is because the
                                                RESA gets an initiation
                                                eligibility list where he/
                                                she will mark yea/nay
                                                for an initiation. When
                                                the yea is checked the
                                                ESC (membership services)
                                                will more than likely issue
                                                the pink slip for the initiation.
                                                Or, the file has been red
                                                flagged for some reason.
                                                Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                                a temporary hold on higher
                                                initiations. Maybe it's due
                                                to pending requirements
                                                for training/retraining.
                                                The ESC will notify the
                                                RESA when the pink slip
                                                is sent.

                                                Most Eckists don't know
                                                how the initiation process
                                                works.

                                                The RESA has a membership
                                                list generated by the ESC
                                                for all those EKists in their
                                                region and it will show
                                                initiation level, one's status
                                                and date of membership
                                                among other info. If a
                                                new person sends in a
                                                membership form to the
                                                ESC from anywhere in
                                                the RESA's region the RESA
                                                will be notified of who
                                                they are and their mailing
                                                address.

                                                I was glad Ford Johnson
                                                wrote his book and that
                                                I was told about it by an
                                                Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                                The Irony is that he was
                                                doing Public Information
                                                and was quite the gossip.

                                                I always was the skeptic
                                                and had trouble with a lot
                                                of what I saw and experienced
                                                around H.I.s.

                                                When I was a lower initiate
                                                I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                                spiritual nor anywhere close
                                                to being enlightened. There
                                                were too many contradictions,
                                                restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                                Once you're an EK member
                                                the next step is to get you
                                                to become a volunteer on
                                                HK's sales team.

                                                I always wondered how
                                                was there an "inner" connection
                                                to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                                were still smoking and
                                                drinking alcohol, but
                                                getting promoted with
                                                more initiations? I knew
                                                of two 5ths who smoked
                                                and drank and got pink
                                                slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                                that Klemp knows nothing
                                                unless informed via phone
                                                or snailmail... email now!

                                                Yes, Janice, we were the
                                                ones awakened to the Truth
                                                while all of those "Higher"
                                                (pretend) Initiates are still
                                                sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                                become very skilled at
                                                regurgitating the PR and
                                                at facilitating and public
                                                speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                                no idea of what it's like
                                                to be Free thinkers and
                                                free of religion and of the
                                                EK Hierarchy. They think
                                                that their "spiritual experiences"
                                                are unique when these
                                                are common and similar
                                                experiences that all religious
                                                seekers have had... even
                                                Christians!

                                                Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                                in order to fill a void and
                                                to learn some important
                                                lessons about ourselves
                                                and about religion in general.

                                                IMO, Those who left
                                                Eckankar but still have
                                                a need for religion, haven't
                                                really learned that they
                                                will never find answers
                                                via a group consciousness
                                                or via a guru/master.
                                                True, it is nice to know
                                                people of like mind and
                                                to share things, but this
                                                can be a bad thing as well
                                                if we become too attached
                                                or lazy and want to play
                                                follow the leader again.

                                                It all comes down to one's
                                                private and personal experiences
                                                and inner revelations with
                                                oneSelf and with whatever
                                                catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                                Prometheus

                                                Janice wrote:
                                                I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening. The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for new people.

                                                Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about initiations.

                                                I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                                Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper even.

                                                How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it, getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk. Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                                That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself lucky that I got out when I did.

                                                The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at that point the lies.

                                                Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                                I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see this.

                                                I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                                I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                                Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that getting out could lead to better things.

                                                Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you are.

                                                Blessings to all of you.


                                                prometheus wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hello Janice, Russ and All,
                                                > Yes, some EK Volunteers
                                                > in Satsang Society "settler"
                                                > and "explorer" positions at
                                                > the EK Centers would trip
                                                > over their egos and go on
                                                > power trips. Many seemed
                                                > cliquish and would huddle
                                                > together. Then, again, some
                                                > weren't all that friendly or
                                                > were very introverted and
                                                > shy. I'd encourage everyone,
                                                > including the clerics, to
                                                > greet and talk to all of the
                                                > new or seldom seen faces
                                                > that showed up. Many
                                                > only saw other Eckists at
                                                > the monthly EWS and this
                                                > was a time to catch up on
                                                > things. This is why I'd
                                                > suggest going to lunch
                                                > after the EWS and socializing.
                                                >
                                                > Many Eckists are Introverts.
                                                > True? I think so!
                                                >
                                                > Klemp's volunteer duties
                                                > and requirements for Eckists
                                                > means that they must take
                                                > on extroverted roles in
                                                > order to become H.I.s.
                                                > Eckists must force themselves,
                                                > against their innate natures,
                                                > to become extroverted and
                                                > egocentric. These leadership
                                                > requirements create conflict,
                                                > stress, and a form of schizophrenia.
                                                > Thus, this imbalance that
                                                > Klemp has created and
                                                > reenforces aids him in
                                                > the brainwashing of his
                                                > flock to have programmed
                                                > religious faith, beliefs, and
                                                > mystical experiences. But,
                                                > this has its toll and is why
                                                > many long-time H.I.s choose
                                                > to reject Klemp's Guidelines
                                                > and his anal control tactics.
                                                >
                                                > Sometimes, at special
                                                > harji potlucks, H.I. meetings,
                                                > and mini retreats the
                                                > long-time H.I.s, former
                                                > RESAs, the RESA, and Board
                                                > members would gather
                                                > around and gossip about
                                                > those absent or present.
                                                > Only, it wasn't seen as
                                                > gossip but rationalized
                                                > as more of an evaluative/
                                                > investigative discussion
                                                > for possible initiation
                                                > recommendation or for
                                                > a Satsang position appointment.
                                                > They wanted to know,
                                                > from sources who knew
                                                > them, if there were problems
                                                > with these EKists and, if
                                                > so, what the specific details
                                                > were. It was all ego driven
                                                > and subjective because we
                                                > were all volunteers and
                                                > had family and personal
                                                > lives too. But, it did weed
                                                > out those who weren't as
                                                > well indoctrinated....
                                                > supposedly. But, HK's eck
                                                > crap (busy work) was pretty
                                                > much always a waste of
                                                > time so, in the long run,
                                                > enthusiasm was probably
                                                > more important than acting
                                                > the part. The Satsang positions
                                                > and duties kept people
                                                > busy, gave them a purpose
                                                > and made them feel good,
                                                > although, very stressed out.
                                                >
                                                > The Initiation game has made
                                                > Eckists struggle with denying
                                                > how much more they want of
                                                > this magical, imaginary, elixir.
                                                >
                                                > Janice, that was crazy, too,
                                                > that an ESA told you that the
                                                > people at the EK Center were
                                                > crazy. That just isn't done
                                                > and is part of HK's agenda
                                                > of Silence and retraining.
                                                >
                                                > There's that old Buddha quote
                                                > that Eckists sing and talk about
                                                > (but don't attribute to Buddha)
                                                > and this is supposed to keep
                                                > ECKists quiet or else they will
                                                > sometimes get reported:
                                                > "Is it true, necessary, or kind;
                                                > this I ask myself before I
                                                > speak my mind." Interestingly,
                                                > following this criteria is very
                                                > subjective and could or would
                                                > Not, necessarily, stifle most
                                                > conservations.
                                                >
                                                > "It's a beautiful day!" This
                                                > may be "true" for you and
                                                > for most people but not
                                                > not for all people. And, is
                                                > it "necessary" to exclaim
                                                > this? And, is it "kind" to say
                                                > this within earshot of people
                                                > who aren't feeling well or
                                                > who can't enjoy the day?
                                                > Yet, it's used by Klemp
                                                > to keep the critics of his
                                                > policies and of his H.I.s
                                                > to a minimum.
                                                >
                                                > Prometheus
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Russ Rodnick wrote:
                                                > You've seen the way things are and it seemed odd to me too. Especially
                                                > considering that Harold and Paul both spoke out against gossip publicly as a
                                                > very harmful activity. As I mentioned I have attended classes in a few states
                                                > over my 30 plus years as an eck chela and many good people have been turned off
                                                > by the antics and power trippers at the centers. I always thought it was my job
                                                > to remain aloof from negativity and seek out people I could relate to. It's been
                                                > very clear to me that we all of us have struggled with our human nature but
                                                > rather than share this very human reality and how we have perhaps learned to
                                                > handle it eckists retreat into a front or veneer of divine love.
                                                >
                                                > Anyway it's one of the reasons I left. I've always craved 'real' sincere
                                                > communication and didn't find too many willing people at the eck centers.
                                                >
                                                > Good to be away from it.
                                                >
                                                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                >
                                                > I always felt turned off by the gossip and back biting that I saw right from the
                                                > beginning. I couldn't help but think "where is the Love". But I was willing to
                                                > think it was my own lack of understanding that was the problem because certainly
                                                > spiritually advanced people could not be unloving. They would say awful things
                                                > about each other and then talk quietly to each other at the beginning of hu
                                                > sings and such like they were all good buddies. I am a loyal type person to
                                                > those who are my friends and those I think well of. I could not understand
                                                > these things coming from so called well developed people. I even think a male
                                                > that introduced me to eckankar might have been feeding them gossip about me at
                                                > times although I don't know that to be a fact. Also, some of the other females
                                                > would ask blatant personal questions to me right in the middle of a group. I
                                                > got some pretty stern looks when I told one that I didn't think that was any of
                                                > her business. Over all those people had no respect for any ones privacy and I
                                                > thought the way they slammed each other behind each others backs was very
                                                > disrespectful. I can only sum it up by saying they came across as very phony. I
                                                > could not form friendships with any of them. It was what I read that held me in
                                                > eckankar. The quality of the people in the center was terrible. It bothered me
                                                > so bad that I sought a spiritual session. I told the adviser what I was
                                                > thinking. Although she was kind to me, her answer for me, was in itself
                                                > shocking. She said she didn't go to the center because they were all crazy and
                                                > she preferred not to be involved with their activities. It only made me feel
                                                > more confused as a fairly new person. I would perform tasks anytime I was asked
                                                > but I started avoiding the center also. Finally, seeing the truth about the
                                                > teachings was enough to cause me to want to walk away. I decided that being a
                                                > long term eckist robbed people of any sense of discretion. it seems they open
                                                > their mouths and let whatever is going on between their two ears fly out no
                                                > matter who it was about. Gossip collectors and gossip spreaders seemed to be
                                                > what they were. It was crazy; all of it.
                                                >
                                                > Russ wrote:
                                                > I was in three states and two of three state spiritual services directors were
                                                > fascist about the guidelines. One of them inherited a sum of money that set him
                                                > up in business and I always thought his ability to donate 5 figures was what
                                                > made him so popular in the eck community.
                                                >
                                                > There ws such little love and tolerance toward one another and a strong sense of
                                                > self importance toward what we were doing. The face of love and smiling was
                                                > present, but not a real connection, which in the end is why I left, among other
                                                > things.
                                                >
                                                > Russ
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > prometheus wrote:
                                                > Hello Non eckchains and All,
                                                > What has me ROFLMAO is
                                                > that Klemp has enough of
                                                > a problem that he used it
                                                > in the ASK The MASTER
                                                > section of the H.I. Letter!
                                                > And, it was the only question!
                                                > They had, supposedly, an
                                                > H.I. write-in and point out
                                                > the problem. No name given.
                                                >
                                                > I remember when I had
                                                > to deal with some older
                                                > H.I.s (former RESAs) in
                                                > coordinator and director
                                                > positions and it was
                                                > impossible to get this
                                                > one to follow the Guidelines
                                                > on EK Worship Services
                                                > (EWS). Many long-time
                                                > H.I.s really resist H.K.'s
                                                > Guidelines and my
                                                > RESA turned a blind-
                                                > eye to it all. We had
                                                > so many former RESAs
                                                > in volunteer positions
                                                > that it was impossible
                                                > to get them on the
                                                > same page and to follow
                                                > procedures. I think
                                                > that some were just
                                                > burned out and tired
                                                > of Klemp's B.S. but
                                                > didn't want to leave.
                                                > Maybe they had too
                                                > many friendships to
                                                > lose. Plus, let's face
                                                > it. A lot of these people
                                                > are losers in the real
                                                > world but are big shots
                                                > in Eckankar. Those
                                                > Higher Initiations are
                                                > a big deal to the ego!
                                                >
                                                > Prometheus
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > "Non" eckchains wrote:
                                                > It is so really boring when you look at it, the one man show with his clones. I
                                                > don't really get why the H.I.'s don't just implode. The klempster has nothing to
                                                > offer. Then again, true believers are just blobs of beliefs that become brittle
                                                > over time, concentrated self-delusion, and yes a lot of fear and insecurity and
                                                > even pent up rage. H.I. stands for Higher Idiot. :)
                                                >
                                                > Non ;)
                                                >
                                                > prometheus wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Hello All,
                                                > > In the Dec. 2012 H.I.
                                                > > Letter I've read that
                                                > > Klemp still needs to
                                                > > update his Guidelines
                                                > > for the H.I.s in the
                                                > > field and chastise
                                                > > those who are slow
                                                > > to get with the program.
                                                > >
                                                > > Many long-time H.I.s
                                                > > want the freedom
                                                > > of Soul to be more
                                                > > individualistic,
                                                > > spontaneous, and
                                                > > creative by thinking
                                                > > they (Soul) can operate
                                                > > outside-of-the-box,
                                                > > thus, being channels
                                                > > for the ECK. Klemp
                                                > > has previously stated
                                                > > that he's imperfect,
                                                > > but that's not the case
                                                > > with the ECK, correct?
                                                > >
                                                > > Why, then, shouldn't
                                                > > their current (Present)
                                                > > Inner EK Guidance be
                                                > > followed versus that
                                                > > of outer set-in-stone
                                                > > ESC Guidelines printed
                                                > > in the Past and approved
                                                > > by a committee of imperfect
                                                > > people on a plane ruled
                                                > > by the KAL?
                                                > >
                                                > > H.I.s still haven't learned
                                                > > that freedom of expression
                                                > > doesn't work in Klemp's
                                                > > version of ECKankar.
                                                > > It's a hierarchy where
                                                > > everything is spelled
                                                > > out and controlled
                                                > > by him and his secret
                                                > > RESA police, plus, all
                                                > > field work must be
                                                > > approved via the
                                                > > current Guidelines.
                                                > >
                                                > > Many inexperienced
                                                > > EKists like the idea of
                                                > > being told how to do
                                                > > this or that and what
                                                > > approved books to use
                                                > > and what to say and
                                                > > other details to make
                                                > > the promotion of
                                                > > Eckankar easier.
                                                > >
                                                > > But the real point the
                                                > > ESC (Klemp) is making
                                                > > is to have EK PR more
                                                > > consistent and cookie
                                                > > cutter looking/sounding
                                                > > for the public.
                                                > >
                                                > > Plus, the EK Guidelines
                                                > > are like following a
                                                > > recipe set-in-stone
                                                > > that disregards individual
                                                > > or regional tastes and
                                                > > disallows any additions
                                                > > or omissions of other
                                                > > ingredients, methods,
                                                > > and/or spices.
                                                > >
                                                > > Klemp's foretold admonishments
                                                > > are about H.I.s resisting
                                                > > change. He says they "rock
                                                > > the boat" out of "fear" and
                                                > > that "it's all about fear."
                                                > > Also, "they huddle in packs"
                                                > > and "reinforce in each other
                                                > > a group's opposition to
                                                > > anything new." Strange
                                                > > that Klemp's H.I.s are
                                                > > subject to fear since he's
                                                > > supposed to protect them!
                                                > > This is how the KAL works.
                                                > > Klemp is his agent.
                                                > >
                                                > > However, the real 'change'
                                                > > that H.I.s resist is in rejecting
                                                > > Klemp's nonsense and
                                                > > heavy handed control tactics.
                                                > > Many H.I.s, however, chose
                                                > > the Freedom of Soul versus
                                                > > being bound to dogma.
                                                > > HK side-steps delivering
                                                > > on his promises of protection
                                                > > and never has anything
                                                > > profound to share. And,
                                                > > where are those Higher
                                                > > Initiations that are, supposedly,
                                                > > yardsticks in measuring
                                                > > Consciousness and Spiritual
                                                > > Growth? Klemp is playing
                                                > > the long-con and is, thus,
                                                > > stingy and self-serving.
                                                > >
                                                > > Harold goes on to say that
                                                > > these H.I.s are "obstructions
                                                > > on the path to God instead
                                                > > of being stepping stones."
                                                > > Apparently, being creative
                                                > > and spontaneous and
                                                > > following "Inner Nudges"
                                                > > and/or "Signs" are not
                                                > > permitted if it conflicts
                                                > > with the LEM's outer,
                                                > > Physical (1st) Plane, Guidelines!
                                                > >
                                                > > The LEM states that, "We
                                                > > are here to learn." However,
                                                > > what is it that Klemp "learns"
                                                > > from others since he never
                                                > > listens? He's the Top goD
                                                > > and doesn't partake in
                                                > > two-way dialogues with
                                                > > those under his authority.
                                                > >
                                                > > Klemp sounds quite intolerant
                                                > > and unloving as he continues
                                                > > to chastise his H.I.s. "They
                                                > > believe that if they sit still
                                                > > and breathe only enough to
                                                > > sustain life that they may
                                                > > well dodge the lightning
                                                > > strikes of irksome change."
                                                > > Is that a threat? HK sounds
                                                > > like KAL! However, by doing
                                                > > Klemp's bidding do ECKists
                                                > > really avoid "lightning strikes?"
                                                > > Don't EKists still die of all
                                                > > sorts of illnesses and situations
                                                > > that could have be averted
                                                > > if they had gotten proper
                                                > > and immediate care? Sure!
                                                > > Therefore, Klemp can't protect
                                                > > ECKists and his veiled threats
                                                > > are meaningless... unless
                                                > > you've given this Black
                                                > > Magician power over you!
                                                > >
                                                > > But, it seems that HK
                                                > > has something else stuck
                                                > > in his craw. It seems to
                                                > > me that Klemp doesn't
                                                > > like his 7ths just sitting
                                                > > still and Contemplating
                                                > > or HUing, and enjoying
                                                > > life. But why shouldn't
                                                > > they take it easy after
                                                > > 40 years of doing PR
                                                > > work for Eckankar!
                                                > >
                                                > > So, what does Klemp
                                                > > the All compassionate,
                                                > > loving, positive, and
                                                > > empathetic icon of EK
                                                > > conclude?
                                                > >
                                                > > "An H.I. who blatantly
                                                > > refuses to adhere to
                                                > > the ECK Guidelines
                                                > > needs to be addressed
                                                > > on the issues." Hmmmm.
                                                > > I wonder what that
                                                > > really means? Well,
                                                > > unless you're already
                                                > > a 7th you can kiss that
                                                > > next initiation good-bye
                                                > > for like 10-20 years!
                                                > >
                                                > > Klemp continues to say,
                                                > > "These are big stakes!
                                                > > Continued refusal means
                                                > > it's time for a replacement
                                                > > to step in. A change is
                                                > > due. Change. isn't it
                                                > > funny how we have come
                                                > > full circle?" No! It's not
                                                > > really funny. Klemp
                                                > > abuses the concept
                                                > > of "change" and makes
                                                > > it into a misnomer.
                                                > >
                                                > > What "changes" are there
                                                > > in Eckankar? The same
                                                > > old things are merely
                                                > > revisited, updated, dusted
                                                > > off and made to seem
                                                > > "new." It's all a facade,
                                                > > smoke and mirrors, and
                                                > > a game of pretend by
                                                > > creating brightly colored
                                                > > straws to grab at and
                                                > > cling to when drowning.
                                                > >
                                                > > Too bad that EKists are
                                                > > so deluded and needy
                                                > > and aren't able to read
                                                > > between the lines and
                                                > > see the real truth behind
                                                > > Klemp's words and methods.
                                                > >
                                                > > Prometheus
                                                >





                                              • prometheus_973
                                                Hello Janice, Non and All, Thank you for the kind words and understanding. It got me to thinking about the basis for the whole EK initiation eligibility
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Dec 16, 2012
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                                                  Hello Janice, Non and All,
                                                  Thank you for the kind
                                                  words and understanding.
                                                  It got me to thinking about
                                                  the basis for the whole EK
                                                  initiation eligibility screening.

                                                  I think that we've all heard
                                                  about the importance of
                                                  keeping the EK Teachings
                                                  "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
                                                  must be current on procedures,
                                                  and guidelines which will,
                                                  also, ensure that they are
                                                  able to regurgitate the
                                                  approved propaganda.
                                                  The initiation eligibility
                                                  screenings are to sort out
                                                  those who still need more
                                                  training or are ready to
                                                  advance to the next stage
                                                  and take on more responsibilities
                                                  with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
                                                  Sales Teams.

                                                  Plus, the initiation screenings
                                                  ensure that Klemp will have
                                                  people who are willing to
                                                  participate in the promotion
                                                  of the organization. It has
                                                  nothing to do with one's
                                                  spiritual growth. But, sincerity
                                                  and believability goes a
                                                  long way in convincing others.
                                                  However, one can't be too
                                                  deluded. One needs to be
                                                  believable and this is why
                                                  the faithful are the ones most
                                                  shocked when they can finally
                                                  open their minds to hear
                                                  the truth.

                                                  Maybe most of the heavy
                                                  handed methods, lack of
                                                  empathy and compassion,
                                                  are rationalizations where
                                                  the RESAs are thinking
                                                  they are toughening up
                                                  and strengthening Soul
                                                  while, also, protecting
                                                  the Mahanta, supporting
                                                  his "Mission," and keeping
                                                  the EK Teachings "pure"
                                                  and unchangeable over
                                                  time.

                                                  When taking a second look;
                                                  HK has his RESAs confused.
                                                  How does Klemp continue
                                                  to promote "change" and
                                                  is always updating things
                                                  while keeping the "original"
                                                  EK Teachings by Twitchell
                                                  "pure?" The truth is that,
                                                  as LEM, Klemp has the
                                                  authority to Change and
                                                  revisit all EK Dogma and
                                                  "update" and revise it
                                                  with his own spin.

                                                  Therefore, only the current
                                                  EK teachings (Guidelines
                                                  included) are "pure" according
                                                  to what Klemp is suggesting.
                                                  Except, the reason why HK
                                                  has chosen not to reprint
                                                  most of Twitchell's books
                                                  is because they are highly
                                                  plagiarized versus being
                                                  "current" with today's higher
                                                  consciousness.

                                                  The foundation of Eckankar
                                                  is built upon a con and a
                                                  hoax and is not even copied
                                                  from the highest "truths"
                                                  of other religions since these
                                                  religions are flawed as well.
                                                  Twitchell's books are more
                                                  evidence to prove the case
                                                  and to show that he was
                                                  simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
                                                  and a narcissistic wannabe.

                                                  Prometheus


                                                  Prometheus

                                                  Janice wrote:
                                                  I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things. I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations. I did admire you for it also. I apologize for not telling you then.

                                                  At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time. There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others.

                                                  Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join. I did go in of my own free will like everybody else. I opened myself up to it, like everybody else. So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts. We chose to join eckankar.

                                                  Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it. You were one of those.

                                                  Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people? Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others.

                                                  I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get. Do you think those who passed on, do? It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.

                                                  By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart.

                                                  Be at peace

                                                  Janice


                                                  Non ekchains:

                                                  Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                                  Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                                  http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                                  Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                                  In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                                  I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                                  Blessings

                                                  Non ;)


                                                  prometheus wrote:

                                                  Hello Janice,
                                                  Most H.I.s have no idea
                                                  how the EK Initiation
                                                  process works. It's sad
                                                  because there are some
                                                  really nice and gentile
                                                  chelas who have been
                                                  passed over on the 5th.
                                                  Some died as 4ths when
                                                  they should have had
                                                  some happiness, peace
                                                  of mind, and contentment
                                                  by receiving that 5th.
                                                  I've know several eckists
                                                  where this has happened.
                                                  It was no big deal to give
                                                  them their 5th initiation,
                                                  but some RESAs are mean-
                                                  spirited, lack empathy,
                                                  and are petty. They've
                                                  gotten caught up in HK's
                                                  game. All Eckists should
                                                  get the 5th after no more
                                                  than 20 years, especially,
                                                  when they participate
                                                  and are kept current on
                                                  their membership. However,
                                                  that's not the way the
                                                  power trip is played by
                                                  some RESAs.

                                                  I hate to admit this but
                                                  I helped the RESA when
                                                  asked about people. I
                                                  was quizzed about those
                                                  up for, usually, the 5th
                                                  and 6th initiation. I was
                                                  asked about what the EKist
                                                  said, how they acted and
                                                  conducted themselves
                                                  and any unusual things
                                                  that I noticed about
                                                  their behavior or performance.
                                                  And then I was asked for
                                                  my opinion. Unfortunately
                                                  my replies, I know, had
                                                  some initiations delayed
                                                  for these people and I
                                                  regret that I got caught
                                                  up in this petty mind game.
                                                  Some of these people are
                                                  still H.I.s and have no idea
                                                  why they had to wait so
                                                  long for their 5th or 6th.
                                                  Many probably think that
                                                  the Mahanta was testing
                                                  them! LOL! On the other
                                                  hand maybe some of them,
                                                  by now, have been asked
                                                  to evaluate people too.
                                                  I wonder if they put two
                                                  and two together and
                                                  figured it out.

                                                  Why, though, should
                                                  Klemp have a system
                                                  for initiations that judges
                                                  and punishes Eckists
                                                  based upon our evaluations?
                                                  Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                                  of the Mahanta?

                                                  Besides, a 5th is no big
                                                  deal, and it's not like one
                                                  becomes a cleric automatically
                                                  with a 5th. Really, being
                                                  an 5th is no more being
                                                  an official representative
                                                  of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                                  Yes, most Eckists have
                                                  no idea that a computer
                                                  generated eligibility list
                                                  is sent to the RESA by the
                                                  ESC and that phone calls
                                                  are made asking questions
                                                  where subjective answers
                                                  are given and that the RESA
                                                  uses these to either approve
                                                  and give a recommendation
                                                  for initiation or doesn't.
                                                  However, I will say that
                                                  any "No" has to have an
                                                  valid reason. The ESC
                                                  usually follows the RESAs'
                                                  recommendations.

                                                  BTW- Janice, I think that
                                                  your RESA approved of
                                                  your initiation because
                                                  he felt guilty for having
                                                  yelled at you, plus, you
                                                  could have reported him
                                                  to the ESC. Maybe the
                                                  initiation approval was
                                                  meant to appease you?

                                                  Prometheus

                                                  Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                  Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                                  Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                                  teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                                  person?

                                                  That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                                  was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                                  on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                                  crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                                  that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                                  was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                                  totally useless.

                                                  In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                                  about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                                  I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                                  of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                                  didn't use his name at all.

                                                  The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                                  seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                                  had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                                  then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                                  asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                                  times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                                  along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                                  his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                                  point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                                  time and hung up.

                                                  It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                                  up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                                  called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                                  appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                                  paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                                  performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                                  that was part of it.

                                                  When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                                  thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                                  there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                                  was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                                  the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                                  insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                                  was enough.

                                                  Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                                  true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                                  I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                                  I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                                  opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                                  like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                                  prometheus wrote:

                                                  Hello Janice,
                                                  Thanks for the interesting
                                                  reply and the sharing of
                                                  insights and experiences.
                                                  I really really enjoyed it
                                                  all.

                                                  The reason why someone
                                                  knew you received your
                                                  pink slip is because the
                                                  RESA gets an initiation
                                                  eligibility list where he/
                                                  she will mark yea/nay
                                                  for an initiation. When
                                                  the yea is checked the
                                                  ESC (membership services)
                                                  will more than likely issue
                                                  the pink slip for the initiation.
                                                  Or, the file has been red
                                                  flagged for some reason.
                                                  Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                                  a temporary hold on higher
                                                  initiations. Maybe it's due
                                                  to pending requirements
                                                  for training/retraining.
                                                  The ESC will notify the
                                                  RESA when the pink slip
                                                  is sent.

                                                  Most Eckists don't know
                                                  how the initiation process
                                                  works.

                                                  The RESA has a membership
                                                  list generated by the ESC
                                                  for all those EKists in their
                                                  region and it will show
                                                  initiation level, one's status
                                                  and date of membership
                                                  among other info. If a
                                                  new person sends in a
                                                  membership form to the
                                                  ESC from anywhere in
                                                  the RESA's region the RESA
                                                  will be notified of who
                                                  they are and their mailing
                                                  address.

                                                  I was glad Ford Johnson
                                                  wrote his book and that
                                                  I was told about it by an
                                                  Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                                  The Irony is that he was
                                                  doing Public Information
                                                  and was quite the gossip.

                                                  I always was the skeptic
                                                  and had trouble with a lot
                                                  of what I saw and experienced
                                                  around H.I.s.

                                                  When I was a lower initiate
                                                  I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                                  spiritual nor anywhere close
                                                  to being enlightened. There
                                                  were too many contradictions,
                                                  restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                                  Once you're an EK member
                                                  the next step is to get you
                                                  to become a volunteer on
                                                  HK's sales team.

                                                  I always wondered how
                                                  was there an "inner" connection
                                                  to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                                  were still smoking and
                                                  drinking alcohol, but
                                                  getting promoted with
                                                  more initiations? I knew
                                                  of two 5ths who smoked
                                                  and drank and got pink
                                                  slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                                  that Klemp knows nothing
                                                  unless informed via phone
                                                  or snailmail... email now!

                                                  Yes, Janice, we were the
                                                  ones awakened to the Truth
                                                  while all of those "Higher"
                                                  (pretend) Initiates are still
                                                  sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                                  become very skilled at
                                                  regurgitating the PR and
                                                  at facilitating and public
                                                  speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                                  no idea of what it's like
                                                  to be Free thinkers and
                                                  free of religion and of the
                                                  EK Hierarchy. They think
                                                  that their "spiritual experiences"
                                                  are unique when these
                                                  are common and similar
                                                  experiences that all religious
                                                  seekers have had... even
                                                  Christians!

                                                  Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                                  in order to fill a void and
                                                  to learn some important
                                                  lessons about ourselves
                                                  and about religion in general.

                                                  IMO, Those who left
                                                  Eckankar but still have
                                                  a need for religion, haven't
                                                  really learned that they
                                                  will never find answers
                                                  via a group consciousness
                                                  or via a guru/master.
                                                  True, it is nice to know
                                                  people of like mind and
                                                  to share things, but this
                                                  can be a bad thing as well
                                                  if we become too attached
                                                  or lazy and want to play
                                                  follow the leader again.

                                                  It all comes down to one's
                                                  private and personal experiences
                                                  and inner revelations with
                                                  oneSelf and with whatever
                                                  catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                                  Prometheus

                                                  Janice wrote:
                                                  I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                                  it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                                  people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                                  The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                                  new people.

                                                  Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                                  little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                                  to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                                  you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                                  you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                                  to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                                  initiations.

                                                  I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                                  contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                                  questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                                  he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                                  not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                                  Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                                  me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                                  about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                                  even.

                                                  How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                                  supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                                  about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                                  getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                                  seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                                  games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                                  opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                                  Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                                  tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                                  become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                                  That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                                  for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                                  eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                                  instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                                  the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                                  Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                                  lucky that I got out when I did.

                                                  The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                                  lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                                  they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                                  in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                                  good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                                  that point the lies.

                                                  Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                                  like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                                  not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                                  define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                                  individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                                  responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                                  after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                                  I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                                  individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                                  the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                                  in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                                  this.

                                                  I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                                  maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                                  spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                                  all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                                  the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                                  own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                                  quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                                  I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                                  mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                                  there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                                  Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                                  they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                                  spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                                  slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                                  getting out could lead to better things.

                                                  Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                                  reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                                  your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                                  to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                                  serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                                  the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                                  are.

                                                  Blessings to all of you.
                                                • Janice Pfeiffer
                                                  Prometheus,   The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.   As a young person, I blamed my parents
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Dec 17, 2012
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                                                    Prometheus,
                                                     
                                                    The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.
                                                     
                                                    As a young person, I blamed my parents for all I didn't get growing up.  I think most of us do get critical of the job our parents did at some point.  I must say my upbringing wasn't very good over all. 
                                                     
                                                    Well, the way I worked it out for myself was I decided they gave me the best they knew how to give at the time.  There was love there and they did give me as much as they were capable of.  They gave what they could.  They were not capable of more.
                                                     
                                                    I like most people have done things that I now consider mistakes, even some really bad mistakes.  But just like my parents I acted under the best info I had at the time. 
                                                     
                                                    It is not an excuse and it is not a victim type attitude.  If you don't know better, you can't do better.
                                                     
                                                    If I knew when I was born, all I know now, I could have avoided most of the mistakes I ever made.
                                                     
                                                    We all know that's not possible.  
                                                     
                                                    I know some of us come in as more advanced souls but we don't get here and immediately know what we are; not with out some experience in life.  It's the bumps and scrapes that helps us define who we are. 
                                                     
                                                    You did no permanent damage to anyone in eckankar because nothing we experience has a forever affect.  If they held on to resentment about an initiation, that is theirs to work out.
                                                     
                                                    You weren't even told the real lies that the org perpetrates to keep people in.
                                                     
                                                    You were forced to play a guessing game about the whole thing with the half truths you got.
                                                     
                                                    Besides you were indoctrinated into the world of how to be a good eckist, good HI and all  positions you may have held.
                                                     
                                                    You believed in what you were doing because you believed in the the teachings and the org.
                                                     
                                                    How can you be wrong if you don't know you are wrong?
                                                     
                                                    You got to a point where you decided you were wrong.
                                                     
                                                    You changed course. 
                                                     
                                                    A not so strong person might have stayed in the circus knowing they were wrong but wouldn't change it.
                                                     
                                                    In my eyes that makes you blameless for anything that happened in the org.
                                                     
                                                    I do have a question.  You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations.  What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development?  I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons.  It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org.  Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone.  Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar?  Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money.  Is that it?
                                                     
                                                    I read every eckankar book available at the time I was in.  I even had access to some that were out of print which were loaned to me by some one who was in during Paul's time.  I got to read Letters to Gail and Paul's books of fiction which I have forgotten the names of now.  If eckankar is now depending on that dry, uninspiring crap hk writes, eckankar is doomed.  There's no way, new people will get hooked on that stuff. 
                                                     
                                                    Thank you Prometheus
                                                     


                                                    --- On Sun, 12/16/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                                                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Chastises H.I.s About "Guidelines"
                                                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Date: Sunday, December 16, 2012, 6:44 PM

                                                     
                                                    Hello Janice, Non and All,
                                                    Thank you for the kind
                                                    words and understanding.
                                                    It got me to thinking about
                                                    the basis for the whole EK
                                                    initiation eligibility screening.

                                                    I think that we've all heard
                                                    about the importance of
                                                    keeping the EK Teachings
                                                    "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
                                                    must be current on procedures,
                                                    and guidelines which will,
                                                    also, ensure that they are
                                                    able to regurgitate the
                                                    approved propaganda.
                                                    The initiation eligibility
                                                    screenings are to sort out
                                                    those who still need more
                                                    training or are ready to
                                                    advance to the next stage
                                                    and take on more responsibilities
                                                    with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
                                                    Sales Teams.

                                                    Plus, the initiation screenings
                                                    ensure that Klemp will have
                                                    people who are willing to
                                                    participate in the promotion
                                                    of the organization. It has
                                                    nothing to do with one's
                                                    spiritual growth. But, sincerity
                                                    and believability goes a
                                                    long way in convincing others.
                                                    However, one can't be too
                                                    deluded. One needs to be
                                                    believable and this is why
                                                    the faithful are the ones most
                                                    shocked when they can finally
                                                    open their minds to hear
                                                    the truth.

                                                    Maybe most of the heavy
                                                    handed methods, lack of
                                                    empathy and compassion,
                                                    are rationalizations where
                                                    the RESAs are thinking
                                                    they are toughening up
                                                    and strengthening Soul
                                                    while, also, protecting
                                                    the Mahanta, supporting
                                                    his "Mission," and keeping
                                                    the EK Teachings "pure"
                                                    and unchangeable over
                                                    time.

                                                    When taking a second look;
                                                    HK has his RESAs confused.
                                                    How does Klemp continue
                                                    to promote "change" and
                                                    is always updating things
                                                    while keeping the "original"
                                                    EK Teachings by Twitchell
                                                    "pure?" The truth is that,
                                                    as LEM, Klemp has the
                                                    authority to Change and
                                                    revisit all EK Dogma and
                                                    "update" and revise it
                                                    with his own spin.

                                                    Therefore, only the current
                                                    EK teachings (Guidelines
                                                    included) are "pure" according
                                                    to what Klemp is suggesting.
                                                    Except, the reason why HK
                                                    has chosen not to reprint
                                                    most of Twitchell's books
                                                    is because they are highly
                                                    plagiarized versus being
                                                    "current" with today's higher
                                                    consciousness.

                                                    The foundation of Eckankar
                                                    is built upon a con and a
                                                    hoax and is not even copied
                                                    from the highest "truths"
                                                    of other religions since these
                                                    religions are flawed as well.
                                                    Twitchell's books are more
                                                    evidence to prove the case
                                                    and to show that he was
                                                    simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
                                                    and a narcissistic wannabe.

                                                    Prometheus

                                                    Prometheus

                                                    Janice wrote:
                                                    I agree with Non, Prometheus, It shows what a well adjusted person you are to say those things. I should have told you that in response when you told me what you knew about initiations. I did admire you for it also. I apologize for not telling you then.

                                                    At the same time, while in eckankar, you were doing the best you could with what you knew at the time. There's no need to blame youself for the effect anything you did at the time had on others.

                                                    Eckankar might deceive people and it might use people for it's own gain but I don't recall anyone sticking a gun to my head and telling me I had to join. I did go in of my own free will like everybody else. I opened myself up to it, like everybody else. So in a sense, we are all responsible for what we got while in even if we weren't given all the facts. We chose to join eckankar.

                                                    Yes, the lies are inexcusable and after reading the postings by you and others who knew a lot more than me, I believe eckankar is basically a heartless org and the only value it ever had are those good hearts of all those who are deceived from within it. You were one of those.

                                                    Besides, how do you know that a delay in initations didn't serve a positve purpose to those people? Regardless of what eckankar may claim, none of us can see what is going on in the spiritual growth of others.

                                                    I now do not miss all those fake initiations I didn't get. Do you think those who passed on, do? It doesn't seem likely they would need such a thing now.

                                                    By the powers of simply me, I declare you not guilty of anything other than having a kind heart.

                                                    Be at peace

                                                    Janice


                                                    Non ekchains:

                                                    Prometheus, I was touched by your regrets as far as your involvement with the ek initiation process. I have to say though, on your behalf that there are few that would be willing to be so open. Also, I too have done things I regret in the past based on my study of New Age Religion, whether as an eckist or something related.

                                                    Phillip Zimbardo PHD, a Social Psychologist, is famous for his prison research study at a University, in which many student participants acted in very demeaning and even abusive ways, even though they knew that they were just play acting as part of a study. Professor Zimbardo's behavior changed as well, and I believe that the study was stopped for ethical reasons. Milligram's study also shows something similar, in that test subjects would shock someone as long as there was an authority figure telling them to proceed. All it took was someone in a lab coat. I found this related site.

                                                    http://www.lucifereffect.com/

                                                    Unfortunately, this type of thing goes on quite a bit in daily life, although I have noticed that some in the millennial generation who are educated are fairly lucid and not as easily fooled as I was, imo. Of course, not all. I think it has to do with how authoritarian the generation or the family environment is/was.

                                                    In my case, I remember being rather callous towards a man who was telling me about a recent bout with testicular cancer. I think I was on some New Age kick about how we cause bad health or whatever by our beliefs or bad karma. This man was offended and went to great lengths to describe in detail what it was like for him, the symptoms, the doctor's visits, the worry that the cancer would spread, and of course having to have one of his testicles surgically removed. I did listen, but it didn't change my mind or state of denial, or level of compassion. In fact, I lived in a state of guilt and fear, blaming myself any time something went wrong.

                                                    I also did a lot of good things, usually when I was studying Humanistic Psychology, which is more compassionate and self-actualizing.

                                                    Blessings

                                                    Non ;)

                                                    prometheus wrote:

                                                    Hello Janice,
                                                    Most H.I.s have no idea
                                                    how the EK Initiation
                                                    process works. It's sad
                                                    because there are some
                                                    really nice and gentile
                                                    chelas who have been
                                                    passed over on the 5th.
                                                    Some died as 4ths when
                                                    they should have had
                                                    some happiness, peace
                                                    of mind, and contentment
                                                    by receiving that 5th.
                                                    I've know several eckists
                                                    where this has happened.
                                                    It was no big deal to give
                                                    them their 5th initiation,
                                                    but some RESAs are mean-
                                                    spirited, lack empathy,
                                                    and are petty. They've
                                                    gotten caught up in HK's
                                                    game. All Eckists should
                                                    get the 5th after no more
                                                    than 20 years, especially,
                                                    when they participate
                                                    and are kept current on
                                                    their membership. However,
                                                    that's not the way the
                                                    power trip is played by
                                                    some RESAs.

                                                    I hate to admit this but
                                                    I helped the RESA when
                                                    asked about people. I
                                                    was quizzed about those
                                                    up for, usually, the 5th
                                                    and 6th initiation. I was
                                                    asked about what the EKist
                                                    said, how they acted and
                                                    conducted themselves
                                                    and any unusual things
                                                    that I noticed about
                                                    their behavior or performance.
                                                    And then I was asked for
                                                    my opinion. Unfortunately
                                                    my replies, I know, had
                                                    some initiations delayed
                                                    for these people and I
                                                    regret that I got caught
                                                    up in this petty mind game.
                                                    Some of these people are
                                                    still H.I.s and have no idea
                                                    why they had to wait so
                                                    long for their 5th or 6th.
                                                    Many probably think that
                                                    the Mahanta was testing
                                                    them! LOL! On the other
                                                    hand maybe some of them,
                                                    by now, have been asked
                                                    to evaluate people too.
                                                    I wonder if they put two
                                                    and two together and
                                                    figured it out.

                                                    Why, though, should
                                                    Klemp have a system
                                                    for initiations that judges
                                                    and punishes Eckists
                                                    based upon our evaluations?
                                                    Where's that Inner Knowingness
                                                    of the Mahanta?

                                                    Besides, a 5th is no big
                                                    deal, and it's not like one
                                                    becomes a cleric automatically
                                                    with a 5th. Really, being
                                                    an 5th is no more being
                                                    an official representative
                                                    of Eckankar than is a 4th.

                                                    Yes, most Eckists have
                                                    no idea that a computer
                                                    generated eligibility list
                                                    is sent to the RESA by the
                                                    ESC and that phone calls
                                                    are made asking questions
                                                    where subjective answers
                                                    are given and that the RESA
                                                    uses these to either approve
                                                    and give a recommendation
                                                    for initiation or doesn't.
                                                    However, I will say that
                                                    any "No" has to have an
                                                    valid reason. The ESC
                                                    usually follows the RESAs'
                                                    recommendations.

                                                    BTW- Janice, I think that
                                                    your RESA approved of
                                                    your initiation because
                                                    he felt guilty for having
                                                    yelled at you, plus, you
                                                    could have reported him
                                                    to the ESC. Maybe the
                                                    initiation approval was
                                                    meant to appease you?

                                                    Prometheus

                                                    Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                    Thank you very much Prometheus for your encouragement.

                                                    Can you tell me how an eckist can view an initiation as sacred like the
                                                    teachings say it is if it is prompted by the recommendations of a local area
                                                    person?

                                                    That was what angered me so much. The teachings described it as something that
                                                    was prompted by the mahanta when the individual was ready. To find it was based
                                                    on the local people's personal opinions of an individual was about the most
                                                    crushing thing I ever learned. After the stupid crap I had witnessed, the idea
                                                    that the local gossip machine was what would or would not get me an initiation
                                                    was more than I could tolerate. It also in my eyes, rendered those initiations
                                                    totally useless.

                                                    In short, why do HI's continue to value initiations after learning how they come
                                                    about and why perpetrate it on others knowing it is a lot of whoey?

                                                    I learned it by accident. It was a slip of the tongue by an HI. He was afraid
                                                    of the effect his slip would have on himself. When I questioned the resa, I
                                                    didn't use his name at all.

                                                    The resa I questioned I had known before he was our area resa. At first he
                                                    seemed to think I was asking about my own initiations. He resonded by sayng he
                                                    had said nothing concerning me. I had to repeat the question several times. He
                                                    then told me he could not discuss that subject once he realized what I was
                                                    asking. I told him it was very important to me and I needed an answer. At all
                                                    times I was respectful. It was then he began yelling about my inability to get
                                                    along with others. Duh, where did this come from. When I asked a third time,
                                                    his yelling became screaming as he repeated his comments about me. At this
                                                    point, I told him that I had heard all I needed to know. I thanked him for his
                                                    time and hung up.

                                                    It was past my renewal date but with in a few days that scanky pink slip showed
                                                    up. It really teed me off to see it. A couple of days later, the eck person
                                                    called to inquire about my getting one. I told no one about getting it so it
                                                    appeared I got it cuz they would rather give an initiation than lose one dues
                                                    paying member and his purpose was to incourage me to go for it. I was also
                                                    performing and paying for a service the local area really needed. I wondered if
                                                    that was part of it.

                                                    When I first left, I thought about writing Minneapolis and telling them what I
                                                    thought about all of it. I some how knew they didn't care how angry I was and
                                                    there could be repurcussions. I decided that if the only info Minneapolis got
                                                    was from the locals then my continued silence was the best response. I was sure
                                                    the eckist who called conveyed my sentiments about the pinks slip and that
                                                    insult to their "sacred" practices would probably gall any steadfast eckist. It
                                                    was enough.

                                                    Everything I have said during my postings about my experiences with eckankar are
                                                    true to the best of my ability. A screaming resa is not an impressive thing and
                                                    I didn't feel intimidated. The game was over. That's how I left.

                                                    I do not understand how an HI can continue to value an initiation based on local
                                                    opinion. If you can put it into words for me, I would appreciate it. I would
                                                    like to see it from an HI position to make sense of it. Thanks so much.

                                                    prometheus wrote:

                                                    Hello Janice,
                                                    Thanks for the interesting
                                                    reply and the sharing of
                                                    insights and experiences.
                                                    I really really enjoyed it
                                                    all.

                                                    The reason why someone
                                                    knew you received your
                                                    pink slip is because the
                                                    RESA gets an initiation
                                                    eligibility list where he/
                                                    she will mark yea/nay
                                                    for an initiation. When
                                                    the yea is checked the
                                                    ESC (membership services)
                                                    will more than likely issue
                                                    the pink slip for the initiation.
                                                    Or, the file has been red
                                                    flagged for some reason.
                                                    Klemp, I'm told, will put
                                                    a temporary hold on higher
                                                    initiations. Maybe it's due
                                                    to pending requirements
                                                    for training/retraining.
                                                    The ESC will notify the
                                                    RESA when the pink slip
                                                    is sent.

                                                    Most Eckists don't know
                                                    how the initiation process
                                                    works.

                                                    The RESA has a membership
                                                    list generated by the ESC
                                                    for all those EKists in their
                                                    region and it will show
                                                    initiation level, one's status
                                                    and date of membership
                                                    among other info. If a
                                                    new person sends in a
                                                    membership form to the
                                                    ESC from anywhere in
                                                    the RESA's region the RESA
                                                    will be notified of who
                                                    they are and their mailing
                                                    address.

                                                    I was glad Ford Johnson
                                                    wrote his book and that
                                                    I was told about it by an
                                                    Eckist who is still an H.I.
                                                    The Irony is that he was
                                                    doing Public Information
                                                    and was quite the gossip.

                                                    I always was the skeptic
                                                    and had trouble with a lot
                                                    of what I saw and experienced
                                                    around H.I.s.

                                                    When I was a lower initiate
                                                    I knew that many H.I.s weren't
                                                    spiritual nor anywhere close
                                                    to being enlightened. There
                                                    were too many contradictions,
                                                    restrictions, and hypocrisy.
                                                    Once you're an EK member
                                                    the next step is to get you
                                                    to become a volunteer on
                                                    HK's sales team.

                                                    I always wondered how
                                                    was there an "inner" connection
                                                    to the Mahanta if H.I.s
                                                    were still smoking and
                                                    drinking alcohol, but
                                                    getting promoted with
                                                    more initiations? I knew
                                                    of two 5ths who smoked
                                                    and drank and got pink
                                                    slips for the 6th. It's clear
                                                    that Klemp knows nothing
                                                    unless informed via phone
                                                    or snailmail... email now!

                                                    Yes, Janice, we were the
                                                    ones awakened to the Truth
                                                    while all of those "Higher"
                                                    (pretend) Initiates are still
                                                    sleeping. Many H.I.s have
                                                    become very skilled at
                                                    regurgitating the PR and
                                                    at facilitating and public
                                                    speaking. But, H.I.s have
                                                    no idea of what it's like
                                                    to be Free thinkers and
                                                    free of religion and of the
                                                    EK Hierarchy. They think
                                                    that their "spiritual experiences"
                                                    are unique when these
                                                    are common and similar
                                                    experiences that all religious
                                                    seekers have had... even
                                                    Christians!

                                                    Yes, we needed Eckankar
                                                    in order to fill a void and
                                                    to learn some important
                                                    lessons about ourselves
                                                    and about religion in general.

                                                    IMO, Those who left
                                                    Eckankar but still have
                                                    a need for religion, haven't
                                                    really learned that they
                                                    will never find answers
                                                    via a group consciousness
                                                    or via a guru/master.
                                                    True, it is nice to know
                                                    people of like mind and
                                                    to share things, but this
                                                    can be a bad thing as well
                                                    if we become too attached
                                                    or lazy and want to play
                                                    follow the leader again.

                                                    It all comes down to one's
                                                    private and personal experiences
                                                    and inner revelations with
                                                    oneSelf and with whatever
                                                    catalyst of "divine" creation.

                                                    Prometheus

                                                    Janice wrote:
                                                    I think the people of eckankar are giving such a bad impression of eckankar that
                                                    it is a real turn off. So now it sounds like klemp is trying to regulate his
                                                    people into being better representatives of eckankar. I can't see it happening.
                                                    The hierarchy is what causes all the arrogance and is what causes a turn off for
                                                    new people.

                                                    Personally, I had no desire to be like what I saw. To see adult people act like
                                                    little children and call themselves spiritually advanced is sickening enough but
                                                    to find out that these same ill mannered people are allowed to pass judgments on
                                                    you which decides whether or not you get an initiation is about as screwed up as
                                                    you can get. Not at any time did I see anyone handle these things well right up
                                                    to the area resa who yelled at me when I started asking the questions about
                                                    initiations.

                                                    I finally had to admit to myself how pathetic the whole set up was. I just broke
                                                    contact. I was told by the one eckist I did happen upon after I left, that
                                                    questions were being asked about me. I told that person that I would prefer that
                                                    he didn't discuss our meeting and if he were asked to let it be known that I did
                                                    not want anymore attention from any eckist at all.

                                                    Shortly after that, I got a pink slip for an initiation which I guess was to woo
                                                    me back into the fold. It went in the trash. This same person I had met asked me
                                                    about the pink slip by phone. I told him I wouldn't use it for toilet paper
                                                    even.

                                                    How is it that everyone knows what is going on with an individual when it is
                                                    supposed to be between the person and the mahanta? The word gets passed upstairs
                                                    about who is being a good little eckist but when it comes right down to it,
                                                    getting my dues was more important than anything else. From all appearances it
                                                    seems the way to get ahead in eckankar was either to play the stupid gossip
                                                    games or to bully your way up the ladder. Neither of these is desirable in my
                                                    opinion but it did explain why the old folk try to bully the new folk.
                                                    Apparently, being able to whip other people into submission is a very desirable
                                                    tool in the eyes of the org. That is what is so sick about eckankar. You either
                                                    become a sheep or a wolf. I wouldn't be either.

                                                    That is why I could not adjust to eckankar. Seeing it was a freeing experience
                                                    for me. It also destroyed what I had felt about the teachings. I threw away all
                                                    eckankar material. I wouldn't even donate the books for fear that I might be an
                                                    instrument to hook others. Stolen works and irresponsible, immature people are
                                                    the concepts I walked away with about eckankar. Much later when I read Ford
                                                    Johnson's book, I realized it went all the way to the top. I considered myself
                                                    lucky that I got out when I did.

                                                    The chelas of eckankar are well meaning but they have become so blind to the
                                                    lies that they can not see they are serving a money driven org and that is all
                                                    they are serving. I feel pity for them. A lot of them will never see the truth
                                                    in this life time. I wonder how shocking it must be to a soul who has spent a
                                                    good part of their life working for eckankar to pass over and have to face at
                                                    that point the lies.

                                                    Eckankar speaks of waking up to the truth. Yet it is they who are in a trance
                                                    like stupor. I am a better person I think for having experienced eckankar but
                                                    not because of what it taught me. I learned never to let another person or org
                                                    define me as a spiritual being. Although belonging to a group of like
                                                    individuals is a comforting thing for sure, each of us as individuals are soley
                                                    responsible for our own growth. In short I have become a more responsible person
                                                    after seeing where blind obedience leads.

                                                    I view eckankar as something I needed to experience to become a responsible
                                                    individual. No savior is coming to save me from myself and no master can show me
                                                    the way. Instead of being a daunting task, I see it as liberating to know I am
                                                    in control of my own fate. With out eckankar, I would not have been able to see
                                                    this.

                                                    I dislike the idea that others might get suckered into eckankar very much. But
                                                    maybe it has a necessary purpose to show those who are really ready for
                                                    spiritual freedom by first experiencing their brand of spiritual bondage. And so
                                                    all my enlightened ex-eckist friends, I hope all of you can feel that you are
                                                    the lucky ones for having experienced the bonds and having broken them of your
                                                    own accord. Xcuse me if I sound like an ego ridden eckist but I think that is
                                                    quiet a lot to learn in a lifetime.

                                                    I see us all ex-eckist as the lucky ones. Well, that is what goes through my
                                                    mind when I think of my experience with eckankar. I feel lucky because I was
                                                    there and I did walk away of my own free will.

                                                    Eckankar can damn me all it will. It has no hold on me. It's even funny that
                                                    they would do that. They make a good force for their kal. Holding people in
                                                    spiritual slavery can not be a positive thing. Wrapped in their own blind
                                                    slavery, I guess they would need to think I am damned. It is inconceivable that
                                                    getting out could lead to better things.

                                                    Thank you all for being part of my journey. You've added much to my life by
                                                    reinforcing what I did experience myself. Gifts to my life, you have become with
                                                    your knowledge and I do hope all of you know how valuable you all are in helping
                                                    to dispel the evil of cults like eckankar. That is a lot higher function than
                                                    serving some crappy money master. I do hope you all can appreciate yourselves as
                                                    the real way showers that eckankar once told you that you were. Well, now you
                                                    are.

                                                    Blessings to all of you.

                                                  • prometheus_973
                                                    Hello Janice, You wrote: I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Dec 17, 2012
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                                                      Hello Janice,
                                                      You wrote: "I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations. What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development? I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons. It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org. Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone. Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar? Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money. Is that it?"

                                                      I guess that I see it all as
                                                      a puzzle that PT created,
                                                      DG played with, and that
                                                      Klemp altered, added to,
                                                      omitted and scrambled
                                                      up the pieces on. Trying
                                                      to piece it all together and
                                                      make sense of it all is what
                                                      I'm attempting.

                                                      The "spiritual" aspect of
                                                      eckankar is comprised
                                                      of shifting paradigms and
                                                      wishful thinking (imagination)
                                                      is encouraged. It's acting
                                                      "as if." And, there are many
                                                      mistakes in judgment and
                                                      perception that are overlooked
                                                      or seen as magical/mystical.
                                                      One's status/level in Eckankar
                                                      is what strengthens the
                                                      illusion powered by ego.
                                                      However, when all is said
                                                      and done one is left with
                                                      their own private and personal
                                                      reality which cannot be
                                                      fully shared with even
                                                      those we view as intimate.

                                                      If Initiations were given
                                                      for "spiritual reasons"
                                                      there would, also, be
                                                      inner knowledge and
                                                      inner communication
                                                      with the Mahanta. EK
                                                      Seminars would be
                                                      conducted on the "Inner"
                                                      via the Soul body and
                                                      these would be free
                                                      of charge!

                                                      Yes, Service is key for
                                                      Klemp's volunteer Sales
                                                      Team and is promoted
                                                      regularly. However, training
                                                      is required in order for
                                                      EKists to seem and sound
                                                      more professional and
                                                      knowledgable and to prepare
                                                      Eckists to be flexible and
                                                      unscathed in all situations.
                                                      Plus, the training will aid
                                                      in promoting those on the
                                                      "fast track" and update
                                                      the old timers to the new
                                                      procedures.

                                                      Basically, Service to the
                                                      Mahanta's Mission is
                                                      key. Getting noticed, in
                                                      a positive way, is key as
                                                      well. Training is also a
                                                      key element in getting
                                                      promoted. Being in Satsang
                                                      and teaching a class is
                                                      a plus as well. Doing intros
                                                      will help and being seen
                                                      at the EWS will help too.
                                                      Always smile and know
                                                      the current info from
                                                      HK's stories and books.

                                                      According to Eckankar
                                                      the initiation numbers
                                                      are yardstick measurements
                                                      of one's spiritual growth.
                                                      It's an enticing sounding
                                                      spin but the reality is very
                                                      bureaucratic and religious
                                                      in the end.

                                                      Prometheus





                                                      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                                      Prometheus,

                                                      The way we blame ourselves for what we see as mistakes is something I have thought about quite a bit.

                                                      As a young person, I blamed my parents for all I didn't get growing up. I think most of us do get critical of the job our parents did at some point. I must say my upbringing wasn't very good over all.

                                                      Well, the way I worked it out for myself was I decided they gave me the best they knew how to give at the time. There was love there and they did give me as much as they were capable of. They gave what they could. They were not capable of more.

                                                      I like most people have done things that I now consider mistakes, even some really bad mistakes. But just like my parents I acted under the best info I had at the time.

                                                      It is not an excuse and it is not a victim type attitude. If you don't know better, you can't do better.

                                                      If I knew when I was born, all I know now, I could have avoided most of the mistakes I ever made.

                                                      We all know that's not possible.

                                                      I know some of us come in as more advanced souls but we don't get here and immediately know what we are; not with out some experience in life. It's the bumps and scrapes that helps us define who we are.

                                                      You did no permanent damage to anyone in eckankar because nothing we experience has a forever affect. If they held on to resentment about an initiation, that is theirs to work out.

                                                      You weren't even told the real lies that the org perpetrates to keep people in.

                                                      You were forced to play a guessing game about the whole thing with the half truths you got.

                                                      Besides you were indoctrinated into the world of how to be a good eckist, good HI and all positions you may have held.

                                                      You believed in what you were doing because you believed in the the teachings and the org.

                                                      How can you be wrong if you don't know you are wrong?

                                                      You got to a point where you decided you were wrong.

                                                      You changed course.

                                                      A not so strong person might have stayed in the circus knowing they were wrong but wouldn't change it.

                                                      In my eyes that makes you blameless for anything that happened in the org.

                                                      I do have a question. You explained a lot about the thinking behind what is done like the claims of more training in eckankar procedures and such when a person is being for considered for initiations. What does training in the org have to do with spiritual development? I thught an initiation was given for spiritual reasons. It seems to me that in eckankar, although all the books were about spiritual development and contemplation techniques, over all, eckankar was blatantly showing HI's that the most important thing was service to the org. Doesn't sound like they cared one bit about real spiritual growth for anyone. Was it directly implied that your spiritual growth depended on service to eckankar? Maybe it was meant that you are responsible for your own spiritual growth while you owe service to eckankar with both your time and money. Is that it?

                                                      I read every eckankar book available at the time I was in. I even had access to some that were out of print which were loaned to me by some one who was in during Paul's time. I got to read Letters to Gail and Paul's books of fiction which I have forgotten the names of now. If eckankar is now depending on that dry, uninspiring crap hk writes, eckankar is doomed. There's no way, new people will get hooked on that stuff.

                                                      Thank you Prometheus


                                                      prometheus wrote:

                                                      Hello Janice, Non and All,
                                                      Thank you for the kind
                                                      words and understanding.
                                                      It got me to thinking about
                                                      the basis for the whole EK
                                                      initiation eligibility screening.

                                                      I think that we've all heard
                                                      about the importance of
                                                      keeping the EK Teachings
                                                      "pure." Therefore, ECK leaders
                                                      must be current on procedures,
                                                      and guidelines which will,
                                                      also, ensure that they are
                                                      able to regurgitate the
                                                      approved propaganda.
                                                      The initiation eligibility
                                                      screenings are to sort out
                                                      those who still need more
                                                      training or are ready to
                                                      advance to the next stage
                                                      and take on more responsibilities
                                                      with the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
                                                      Sales Teams.

                                                      Plus, the initiation screenings
                                                      ensure that Klemp will have
                                                      people who are willing to
                                                      participate in the promotion
                                                      of the organization. It has
                                                      nothing to do with one's
                                                      spiritual growth. But, sincerity
                                                      and believability goes a
                                                      long way in convincing others.
                                                      However, one can't be too
                                                      deluded. One needs to be
                                                      believable and this is why
                                                      the faithful are the ones most
                                                      shocked when they can finally
                                                      open their minds to hear
                                                      the truth.

                                                      Maybe most of the heavy
                                                      handed methods, lack of
                                                      empathy and compassion,
                                                      are rationalizations where
                                                      the RESAs are thinking
                                                      they are toughening up
                                                      and strengthening Soul
                                                      while, also, protecting
                                                      the Mahanta, supporting
                                                      his "Mission," and keeping
                                                      the EK Teachings "pure"
                                                      and unchangeable over
                                                      time.

                                                      When taking a second look;
                                                      HK has his RESAs confused.
                                                      How does Klemp continue
                                                      to promote "change" and
                                                      is always updating things
                                                      while keeping the "original"
                                                      EK Teachings by Twitchell
                                                      "pure?" The truth is that,
                                                      as LEM, Klemp has the
                                                      authority to Change and
                                                      revisit all EK Dogma and
                                                      "update" and revise it
                                                      with his own spin.

                                                      Therefore, only the current
                                                      EK teachings (Guidelines
                                                      included) are "pure" according
                                                      to what Klemp is suggesting.
                                                      Except, the reason why HK
                                                      has chosen not to reprint
                                                      most of Twitchell's books
                                                      is because they are highly
                                                      plagiarized versus being
                                                      "current" with today's higher
                                                      consciousness.

                                                      The foundation of Eckankar
                                                      is built upon a con and a
                                                      hoax and is not even copied
                                                      from the highest "truths"
                                                      of other religions since these
                                                      religions are flawed as well.
                                                      Twitchell's books are more
                                                      evidence to prove the case
                                                      and to show that he was
                                                      simply a liar, con man, plagiarist
                                                      and a narcissistic wannabe.

                                                      Prometheus
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