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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:

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  • Lady Rowan
    Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 22, 2012
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      Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  

      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:

       
      Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
      As far as my religious views...
      well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
      I don't believe in any religion.
      In some ways I'm both theist
      and deist, thus, I'm neither
      agnostic or atheist. I do believe
      that a deity or deities of some
      sort exist or existed and they
      began or seeded the universes.

      And, (IMO) I believe that there
      is some sort of "intervention."
      This is merely one reason as
      to why "spiritual/religious"
      experiences i.e. miracles were
      explained. People will naturally
      imagine/create, via the mind,
      all sorts of things. Religions
      have simply used these events/
      experiences to reenforce their
      hold upon people. Still, IMO,
      there are unexplainable mysterious
      non-religious connections.
      We can even call this a Soul
      to Soul connection linked to
      an overall network (Over-Soul
      i.e. Spirit).

      Thus, I do believe that there
      is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
      whereby, people can experience
      and/or tap into this "divine"
      (or not) mental-energy source.
      IMO We are all "plugged" into
      this network by various ways
      and means and at various
      levels (not planes).

      There are many variables.
      It could be that this "Source"
      is a mental and DNA link
      that expands as we open
      up certain areas of the mind.
      Thus, our potential is enabled
      more and more as we naturally
      use our curiosity to explore
      and expand via technology
      and new thought patterns.
      It's obvious, to me, that
      every individual is at their
      own unique stage of evolution.

      Group religions create a plateau
      and will merely close off and
      stunt potential growth/expansion
      of awareness for individuals.
      This is why all religions will
      use and rely upon "belief" and
      "faith" to reenforce their religious
      foundation. Klemp has done
      the same with Eckankar.

      ********************************

      When I was an EK leader I would
      go out of my way to talk to people
      individually, especially, after the
      EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
      would even encourage the cleric
      and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
      to the newbies whether EKists
      or non-EKists instead of gathering
      in groups with their friends.

      I tried to give people what they
      were seeking but via of the EK
      teachings. Still, there's a lot of
      subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
      Guidelines and EK Dogma does
      tend to limit what one is supposed
      to share. And, it was difficult
      and somewhat frustrating to
      discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
      with people who had not read
      of or understood (been suckered
      into) that special (pretend)
      relationship with the Inner
      Mahanta. This is where one
      develops a codependent
      relationship with an imaginary
      being who is, actually, ones
      own "inner" self.

      Anyway, I did greet, listen to
      and welcome-in those EKists
      who didn't show up often at
      EK events and those non-EKists
      who were curious about Eckankar
      and seeing what "ECKists" looked
      like.

      However, regardless of one's
      sincerity and confidence of
      belief, discussions of the "Divine"
      are still very subjective, and
      uniquely personal. Therefore
      I'm sure that everyone on this
      site (ESA) has a different and
      unique view, as well as, unique
      and private "spiritual" experiences
      that have led us to where we
      are now... wherever that is!
      I'm sure that it's still in flux
      as we continue to explore
      within our own semi-established
      beliefs.

      Prometheus

      "Lady" wrote:
      Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
      mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
      group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
      boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
      introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
      to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
      just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
      became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
      but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
      was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
      that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
      wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
      live it.

      etznab wrote:
      >
      > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
      > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they
      suddenly
      > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
      > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
      >
      > ***
      >
      > That's ironic. Here's why.
      >
      > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
      > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
      >
      > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
      > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
      > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
      > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
      > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
      >
      > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
      > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
      >
      > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
      > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the
      whole ECK,' he was
      > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
      > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
      > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
      >
      >
      > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
      > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
      >
      > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
      > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
      > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
      > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
      > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
      > Divine Grace.'"
      >
      > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
      > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The
      Princes":
      >
      > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
      > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
      > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
      > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
      > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
      > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
      > Grace.'"
      >
      > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
      >
      > OK. You'll love this next one :)
      >
      > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
      > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
      > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors.
      When Jesus,
      > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
      > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
      > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
      > splendors of Rome. [....]"
      >
      > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
      > 432, 2nd paragraph.
      >
      http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
      >
      >
      > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
      > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
      > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
      > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
      > walked the dusty
      streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
      > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
      > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
      >
      > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
      > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
      > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
      > paragraph.
      >
      > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
      > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
      >
      > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
      > corresponding quotes).
      >
      > TKTE - p. 40
      >
      >
      https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
      Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

      >
      > PTP p. 21
      >
      >
      http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
      th

      >
      > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
      > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
      > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
      > version.
      >
      > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
      > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
      > text.
      >
      >
      prometheus wrote:
      > Hello All,
      > Thanks for sharing and
      > bringing up this subject.
      > Many
      H.I.s, unfortunately
      > for them, feel rather aloof
      > and spiritually advanced
      > due to the "number" on
      > their EK membership cards.
      >
      > They are deluded enough
      > to think that this number
      > is an indication of Higher
      > Con because the liar Twitchell
      > said it was in order to
      > sell more memberships
      > and materials. Klemp
      > continues the lie!
      >
      > The biggest argument for
      > these deluded people are
      > the few stories told of Twit,
      > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
      > seen somewhere on the
      > streets, etc. or in a dream
      > before these newbies saw
      > their pictures and were
      > told that these were EK
      > "Masters."
      >
      > Klemp has even revamped
      > people's experiences of having
      > seen Jesus by having Ekists
      > show them pics of Gopal Das,
      > whereby, they suddenly realized
      > that it wasn't
      Jesus after all.
      > It was a mistake in identity
      > and was actually Gopal Das
      > whom they saw!
      >
      > The truth is most H.I.s have
      > little to no actual spiritual
      > experiences or dreams and
      > they grab at straws. The
      > amount of experiences are
      > no more than any other group
      > that focuses upon mental
      > techniques during meditation
      > or before going to sleep.
      >
      > As with all religions it is
      > a matter of faith and belief
      > and Klemp has even mentioned
      > that was this was the real
      > key to Eckankar.
      >
      > I remember once that Klemp
      > told 4th initiates to hang out
      > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
      > to share in their consciousness
      > and prepare for their 5th. One
      > person I knew quit hanging
      > out with her non-H.I. friends
      > and even looked down her nose
      > at lower initiates (like
      herself).
      >
      > Basically, as it is within any
      > hierarchy, the long timers
      > want to see the newbies go
      > through the same amount
      > of crap they had to go through.
      > It's jealously and envy.
      >
      > These H.I.s don't know anymore
      > about spiritual matters than
      > the next person because it's
      > all subjective.
      >
      > Basically, old outdated techniques
      > like focusing upon the Third-
      > Eye versus the Crown chakra
      > will never be changed even
      > though an older EK discourse
      > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
      >
      > Other than that it's all about
      > selling and supporting Klemp's
      > ego and the EK Organization
      > which is Klemp's inherited
      > vocation and spiritual con.
      >
      > Thus, the survival of the EK
      > Org. and support of Klemp's
      > second rate books will continue
      > to be the central focus of
      Eckankar
      >
      > Prometheus
      >

      > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

      > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
      > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
      > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
      > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
      > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
      > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
      > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
      > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
      > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
      >
      > Lady wrote:
      >
      > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
      > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
      > some history
      behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
      > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
      > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
      > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
      > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
      > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
      > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
      > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
      > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
      > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
      > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
      > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
      > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated
      words of the
      > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
      > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
      > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
      > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
      > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
      > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
      > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
      > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
      > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
      > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
      > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
      > the truth or will figure it out.

      Rowan.



    • Non
      Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 2, 2012
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        Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics, depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

        For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive and change into a hunter or prey....

        I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it. We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or just is what it is.

        We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

        Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the pretentious fake promises.

        Non ; )

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...> wrote:
        >
        > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind
        > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:
        >
        >
        >  
        > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
        > As far as my religious views...
        > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
        > I don't believe in any religion.
        > In some ways I'm both theist
        > and deist, thus, I'm neither
        > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
        > that a deity or deities of some
        > sort exist or existed and they
        > began or seeded the universes.
        >
        > And, (IMO) I believe that there
        > is some sort of "intervention."
        > This is merely one reason as
        > to why "spiritual/religious"
        > experiences i.e. miracles were
        > explained. People will naturally
        > imagine/create, via the mind,
        > all sorts of things. Religions
        > have simply used these events/
        > experiences to reenforce their
        > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
        > there are unexplainable mysterious
        > non-religious connections.
        > We can even call this a Soul
        > to Soul connection linked to
        > an overall network (Over-Soul
        > i.e. Spirit).
        >
        > Thus, I do believe that there
        > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
        > whereby, people can experience
        > and/or tap into this "divine"
        > (or not) mental-energy source.
        > IMO We are all "plugged" into
        > this network by various ways
        > and means and at various
        > levels (not planes).
        >
        > There are many variables.
        > It could be that this "Source"
        > is a mental and DNA link
        > that expands as we open
        > up certain areas of the mind.
        > Thus, our potential is enabled
        > more and more as we naturally
        > use our curiosity to explore
        > and expand via technology
        > and new thought patterns.
        > It's obvious, to me, that
        > every individual is at their
        > own unique stage of evolution.
        >
        > Group religions create a plateau
        > and will merely close off and
        > stunt potential growth/expansion
        > of awareness for individuals.
        > This is why all religions will
        > use and rely upon "belief" and
        > "faith" to reenforce their religious
        > foundation. Klemp has done
        > the same with Eckankar.
        >
        > ********************************
        >
        > When I was an EK leader I would
        > go out of my way to talk to people
        > individually, especially, after the
        > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
        > would even encourage the cleric
        > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
        > to the newbies whether EKists
        > or non-EKists instead of gathering
        > in groups with their friends.
        >
        > I tried to give people what they
        > were seeking but via of the EK
        > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
        > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
        > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
        > tend to limit what one is supposed
        > to share. And, it was difficult
        > and somewhat frustrating to
        > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
        > with people who had not read
        > of or understood (been suckered
        > into) that special (pretend)
        > relationship with the Inner
        > Mahanta. This is where one
        > develops a codependent
        > relationship with an imaginary
        > being who is, actually, ones
        > own "inner" self.
        >
        > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
        > and welcome-in those EKists
        > who didn't show up often at
        > EK events and those non-EKists
        > who were curious about Eckankar
        > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
        > like.
        >
        > However, regardless of one's
        > sincerity and confidence of
        > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
        > are still very subjective, and
        > uniquely personal. Therefore
        > I'm sure that everyone on this
        > site (ESA) has a different and
        > unique view, as well as, unique
        > and private "spiritual" experiences
        > that have led us to where we
        > are now... wherever that is!
        > I'm sure that it's still in flux
        > as we continue to explore
        > within our own semi-established
        > beliefs.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > "Lady" wrote:
        > Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
        > mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
        > group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
        > boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
        > introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
        > to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
        > just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
        > became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
        > but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
        > was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
        > that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
        > wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
        > live it.
        >
        > etznab wrote:
        > >
        > > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
        > > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
        > > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
        > > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
        > >
        > > ***
        > >
        > > That's ironic. Here's why.
        > >
        > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
        > > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
        > >
        > > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
        > > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
        > > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
        > > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
        > > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
        > >
        > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
        > > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
        > >
        > > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
        > > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
        > > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
        > > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
        > > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
        > >
        > >
        > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
        > > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
        > >
        > > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
        > > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
        > > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
        > > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
        > > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
        > > Divine Grace.'"
        > >
        > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
        > > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
        > >
        > > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
        > > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
        > > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
        > > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
        > > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
        > > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
        > > Grace.'"
        > >
        > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
        > >
        > > OK. You'll love this next one :)
        > >
        > > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
        > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
        > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
        > > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
        > > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
        > > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
        > > splendors of Rome. [....]"
        > >
        > > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
        > > 432, 2nd paragraph.
        > >
        > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
        > >
        > >
        > > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
        > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
        > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
        > > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
        > > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
        > > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
        > > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
        > >
        > > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
        > > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
        > > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
        > > paragraph.
        > >
        > > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
        > > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
        > >
        > > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
        > > corresponding quotes).
        > >
        > > TKTE - p. 40
        > >
        > >
        > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
        > Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
        > >
        > > PTP p. 21
        > >
        > >
        > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
        > th
        > >
        > > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
        > > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
        > > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
        > > version.
        > >
        > > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
        > > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
        > > text.
        > >
        > >
        > prometheus wrote:
        > > Hello All,
        > > Thanks for sharing and
        > > bringing up this subject.
        > > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
        > > for them, feel rather aloof
        > > and spiritually advanced
        > > due to the "number" on
        > > their EK membership cards.
        > >
        > > They are deluded enough
        > > to think that this number
        > > is an indication of Higher
        > > Con because the liar Twitchell
        > > said it was in order to
        > > sell more memberships
        > > and materials. Klemp
        > > continues the lie!
        > >
        > > The biggest argument for
        > > these deluded people are
        > > the few stories told of Twit,
        > > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
        > > seen somewhere on the
        > > streets, etc. or in a dream
        > > before these newbies saw
        > > their pictures and were
        > > told that these were EK
        > > "Masters."
        > >
        > > Klemp has even revamped
        > > people's experiences of having
        > > seen Jesus by having Ekists
        > > show them pics of Gopal Das,
        > > whereby, they suddenly realized
        > > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
        > > It was a mistake in identity
        > > and was actually Gopal Das
        > > whom they saw!
        > >
        > > The truth is most H.I.s have
        > > little to no actual spiritual
        > > experiences or dreams and
        > > they grab at straws. The
        > > amount of experiences are
        > > no more than any other group
        > > that focuses upon mental
        > > techniques during meditation
        > > or before going to sleep.
        > >
        > > As with all religions it is
        > > a matter of faith and belief
        > > and Klemp has even mentioned
        > > that was this was the real
        > > key to Eckankar.
        > >
        > > I remember once that Klemp
        > > told 4th initiates to hang out
        > > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
        > > to share in their consciousness
        > > and prepare for their 5th. One
        > > person I knew quit hanging
        > > out with her non-H.I. friends
        > > and even looked down her nose
        > > at lower initiates (like herself).
        > >
        > > Basically, as it is within any
        > > hierarchy, the long timers
        > > want to see the newbies go
        > > through the same amount
        > > of crap they had to go through.
        > > It's jealously and envy.
        > >
        > > These H.I.s don't know anymore
        > > about spiritual matters than
        > > the next person because it's
        > > all subjective.
        > >
        > > Basically, old outdated techniques
        > > like focusing upon the Third-
        > > Eye versus the Crown chakra
        > > will never be changed even
        > > though an older EK discourse
        > > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
        > >
        > > Other than that it's all about
        > > selling and supporting Klemp's
        > > ego and the EK Organization
        > > which is Klemp's inherited
        > > vocation and spiritual con.
        > >
        > > Thus, the survival of the EK
        > > Org. and support of Klemp's
        > > second rate books will continue
        > > to be the central focus of Eckankar
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        >
        > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        >
        > > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
        > > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
        > > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
        > > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
        > > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
        > > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
        > > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
        > > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
        > > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
        > >
        > > Lady wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
        > > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
        > > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
        > > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
        > > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
        > > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
        > > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
        > > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
        > > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
        > > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
        > > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
        > > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
        > > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
        > > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
        > > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
        > > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
        > > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
        > > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
        > > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
        > > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
        > > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
        > > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
        > > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
        > > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
        > > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
        > > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
        > > the truth or will figure it out.
        >
        > Rowan.
        >
      • Lady Rowan
        Yup, I agree with you about Ramtha...she creeps me out, even in the movie...but I m talking about the science of quantum physics, M theory, and string theory,
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 5, 2012
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          Yup, I agree with you about Ramtha...she creeps me out, even in the movie...but I'm talking about the science of quantum physics, M theory, and string theory, which have nothing to do with JZ Knight's 'religion' and to me, very disturbing teaching if you see all of it.  I just find it very interesting.  Thanks for sharing.  R

          From: Non <eckchains@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 2:15 AM
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:

           
          Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics, depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

          For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive and change into a hunter or prey....

          I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it. We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or just is what it is.

          We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

          Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the pretentious fake promises.

          Non ; )

          --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...> wrote:
          >
          > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind
          > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          > To: mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:
          >
          >
          >  
          > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
          > As far as my religious views...
          > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
          > I don't believe in any religion.
          > In some ways I'm both theist
          > and deist, thus, I'm neither
          > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
          > that a deity or deities of some
          > sort exist or existed and they
          > began or seeded the universes.
          >
          > And, (IMO) I believe that there
          > is some sort of "intervention."
          > This is merely one reason as
          > to why "spiritual/religious"
          > experiences i.e. miracles were
          > explained. People will naturally
          > imagine/create, via the mind,
          > all sorts of things. Religions
          > have simply used these events/
          > experiences to reenforce their
          > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
          > there are unexplainable mysterious
          > non-religious connections.
          > We can even call this a Soul
          > to Soul connection linked to
          > an overall network (Over-Soul
          > i.e. Spirit).
          >
          > Thus, I do believe that there
          > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
          > whereby, people can experience
          > and/or tap into this "divine"
          > (or not) mental-energy source.
          > IMO We are all "plugged" into
          > this network by various ways
          > and means and at various
          > levels (not planes).
          >
          > There are many variables.
          > It could be that this "Source"
          > is a mental and DNA link
          > that expands as we open
          > up certain areas of the mind.
          > Thus, our potential is enabled
          > more and more as we naturally
          > use our curiosity to explore
          > and expand via technology
          > and new thought patterns.
          > It's obvious, to me, that
          > every individual is at their
          > own unique stage of evolution.
          >
          > Group religions create a plateau
          > and will merely close off and
          > stunt potential growth/expansion
          > of awareness for individuals.
          > This is why all religions will
          > use and rely upon "belief" and
          > "faith" to reenforce their religious
          > foundation. Klemp has done
          > the same with Eckankar.
          >
          > ********************************
          >
          > When I was an EK leader I would
          > go out of my way to talk to people
          > individually, especially, after the
          > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
          > would even encourage the cleric
          > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
          > to the newbies whether EKists
          > or non-EKists instead of gathering
          > in groups with their friends.
          >
          > I tried to give people what they
          > were seeking but via of the EK
          > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
          > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
          > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
          > tend to limit what one is supposed
          > to share. And, it was difficult
          > and somewhat frustrating to
          > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
          > with people who had not read
          > of or understood (been suckered
          > into) that special (pretend)
          > relationship with the Inner
          > Mahanta. This is where one
          > develops a codependent
          > relationship with an imaginary
          > being who is, actually, ones
          > own "inner" self.
          >
          > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
          > and welcome-in those EKists
          > who didn't show up often at
          > EK events and those non-EKists
          > who were curious about Eckankar
          > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
          > like.
          >
          > However, regardless of one's
          > sincerity and confidence of
          > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
          > are still very subjective, and
          > uniquely personal. Therefore
          > I'm sure that everyone on this
          > site (ESA) has a different and
          > unique view, as well as, unique
          > and private "spiritual" experiences
          > that have led us to where we
          > are now... wherever that is!
          > I'm sure that it's still in flux
          > as we continue to explore
          > within our own semi-established
          > beliefs.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > "Lady" wrote:
          > Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
          > mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
          > group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
          > boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
          > introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
          > to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
          > just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
          > became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
          > but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
          > was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
          > that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
          > wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
          > live it.
          >
          > etznab wrote:
          > >
          > > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
          > > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
          > > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
          > > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
          > >
          > > ***
          > >
          > > That's ironic. Here's why.
          > >
          > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
          > > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
          > >
          > > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
          > > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
          > > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
          > > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
          > > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
          > >
          > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
          > > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
          > >
          > > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
          > > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
          > > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
          > > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
          > > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
          > >
          > >
          > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
          > > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
          > >
          > > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
          > > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
          > > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
          > > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
          > > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
          > > Divine Grace.'"
          > >
          > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
          > > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
          > >
          > > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
          > > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
          > > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
          > > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
          > > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
          > > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
          > > Grace.'"
          > >
          > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
          > >
          > > OK. You'll love this next one :)
          > >
          > > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
          > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
          > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
          > > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
          > > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
          > > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
          > > splendors of Rome. [....]"
          > >
          > > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
          > > 432, 2nd paragraph.
          > >
          > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
          > >
          > >
          > > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
          > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
          > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
          > > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
          > > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
          > > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
          > > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
          > >
          > > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
          > > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
          > > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
          > > paragraph.
          > >
          > > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
          > > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
          > >
          > > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
          > > corresponding quotes).
          > >
          > > TKTE - p. 40
          > >
          > >
          > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
          > Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
          > >
          > > PTP p. 21
          > >
          > >
          > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
          > th
          > >
          > > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
          > > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
          > > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
          > > version.
          > >
          > > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
          > > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
          > > text.
          > >
          > >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > > Hello All,
          > > Thanks for sharing and
          > > bringing up this subject.
          > > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
          > > for them, feel rather aloof
          > > and spiritually advanced
          > > due to the "number" on
          > > their EK membership cards.
          > >
          > > They are deluded enough
          > > to think that this number
          > > is an indication of Higher
          > > Con because the liar Twitchell
          > > said it was in order to
          > > sell more memberships
          > > and materials. Klemp
          > > continues the lie!
          > >
          > > The biggest argument for
          > > these deluded people are
          > > the few stories told of Twit,
          > > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
          > > seen somewhere on the
          > > streets, etc. or in a dream
          > > before these newbies saw
          > > their pictures and were
          > > told that these were EK
          > > "Masters."
          > >
          > > Klemp has even revamped
          > > people's experiences of having
          > > seen Jesus by having Ekists
          > > show them pics of Gopal Das,
          > > whereby, they suddenly realized
          > > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
          > > It was a mistake in identity
          > > and was actually Gopal Das
          > > whom they saw!
          > >
          > > The truth is most H.I.s have
          > > little to no actual spiritual
          > > experiences or dreams and
          > > they grab at straws. The
          > > amount of experiences are
          > > no more than any other group
          > > that focuses upon mental
          > > techniques during meditation
          > > or before going to sleep.
          > >
          > > As with all religions it is
          > > a matter of faith and belief
          > > and Klemp has even mentioned
          > > that was this was the real
          > > key to Eckankar.
          > >
          > > I remember once that Klemp
          > > told 4th initiates to hang out
          > > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
          > > to share in their consciousness
          > > and prepare for their 5th. One
          > > person I knew quit hanging
          > > out with her non-H.I. friends
          > > and even looked down her nose
          > > at lower initiates (like herself).
          > >
          > > Basically, as it is within any
          > > hierarchy, the long timers
          > > want to see the newbies go
          > > through the same amount
          > > of crap they had to go through.
          > > It's jealously and envy.
          > >
          > > These H.I.s don't know anymore
          > > about spiritual matters than
          > > the next person because it's
          > > all subjective.
          > >
          > > Basically, old outdated techniques
          > > like focusing upon the Third-
          > > Eye versus the Crown chakra
          > > will never be changed even
          > > though an older EK discourse
          > > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
          > >
          > > Other than that it's all about
          > > selling and supporting Klemp's
          > > ego and the EK Organization
          > > which is Klemp's inherited
          > > vocation and spiritual con.
          > >
          > > Thus, the survival of the EK
          > > Org. and support of Klemp's
          > > second rate books will continue
          > > to be the central focus of Eckankar
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          >
          > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          >
          > > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
          > > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
          > > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
          > > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
          > > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
          > > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
          > > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
          > > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
          > > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
          > >
          > > Lady wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
          > > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
          > > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
          > > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
          > > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
          > > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
          > > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
          > > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
          > > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
          > > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
          > > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
          > > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
          > > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
          > > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
          > > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
          > > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
          > > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
          > > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
          > > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
          > > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
          > > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
          > > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
          > > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
          > > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
          > > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
          > > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
          > > the truth or will figure it out.
          >
          > Rowan.
          >



        • prometheus_973
          Hello Non eckchains, I ll have to admit that I didn t like What the Bleep. I know it had a big Canadian following like Adam Dreamhealer who, btw, also used
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 11, 2012
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            Hello Non eckchains,
            I'll have to admit that
            I didn't like "What the Bleep."
            I know it had a big Canadian
            following like Adam Dreamhealer
            who, btw, also used the
            Quantum whatever speak.
            Dreamhealer is a young
            con artist whose father, mother,
            and sister were all part of
            the con. Adam had a ghost
            writer co-author and do his
            first book. Have you ever heard
            the New Age term "organic"
            being used to describe all
            sorts of things. It's like with
            "quantum." All of these people
            are looking for a following
            and to use the right "hook"
            depending upon their audience
            of perspective suckers... like
            with Eckankar.

            Prometheus


            "Non" eckchains wrote:
            Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with
            Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very
            Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum
            physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call
            Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the
            micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics,
            depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking
            across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

            For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social
            animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are
            there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of
            exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a
            gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy
            animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive
            and change into a hunter or prey....

            I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed
            real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it.
            We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or
            just is what it is.

            We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of
            overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we
            have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

            Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another
            dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality
            and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too
            carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes
            so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or
            later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last
            legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the
            pretentious fake promises.

            Non ; )

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I
            thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any
            kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion
            or following. About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What
            The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it
            fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically
            the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people
            like me), but again always hungered for more. Another fav is Brian Greene's
            The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string
            theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for
            this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but IÂ got
            the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and
            still have a hard time wrapping my mind
            > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most
            High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate
            any of it, as it is so rich. But I do like the fact that science has
            acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to
            me) way.  It's awesome. Rowan Â
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting
            Comments on this site:
            >
            >
            > Â
            > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
            > As far as my religious views...
            > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
            > I don't believe in any religion.
            > In some ways I'm both theist
            > and deist, thus, I'm neither
            > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
            > that a deity or deities of some
            > sort exist or existed and they
            > began or seeded the universes.
            >
            > And, (IMO) I believe that there
            > is some sort of "intervention."
            > This is merely one reason as
            > to why "spiritual/religious"
            > experiences i.e. miracles were
            > explained. People will naturally
            > imagine/create, via the mind,
            > all sorts of things. Religions
            > have simply used these events/
            > experiences to reenforce their
            > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
            > there are unexplainable mysterious
            > non-religious connections.
            > We can even call this a Soul
            > to Soul connection linked to
            > an overall network (Over-Soul
            > i.e. Spirit).
            >
            > Thus, I do believe that there
            > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
            > whereby, people can experience
            > and/or tap into this "divine"
            > (or not) mental-energy source.
            > IMO We are all "plugged" into
            > this network by various ways
            > and means and at various
            > levels (not planes).
            >
            > There are many variables.
            > It could be that this "Source"
            > is a mental and DNA link
            > that expands as we open
            > up certain areas of the mind.
            > Thus, our potential is enabled
            > more and more as we naturally
            > use our curiosity to explore
            > and expand via technology
            > and new thought patterns.
            > It's obvious, to me, that
            > every individual is at their
            > own unique stage of evolution.
            >
            > Group religions create a plateau
            > and will merely close off and
            > stunt potential growth/expansion
            > of awareness for individuals.
            > This is why all religions will
            > use and rely upon "belief" and
            > "faith" to reenforce their religious
            > foundation. Klemp has done
            > the same with Eckankar.
            >
            > ********************************
            >
            > When I was an EK leader I would
            > go out of my way to talk to people
            > individually, especially, after the
            > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
            > would even encourage the cleric
            > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
            > to the newbies whether EKists
            > or non-EKists instead of gathering
            > in groups with their friends.
            >
            > I tried to give people what they
            > were seeking but via of the EK
            > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
            > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
            > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
            > tend to limit what one is supposed
            > to share. And, it was difficult
            > and somewhat frustrating to
            > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
            > with people who had not read
            > of or understood (been suckered
            > into) that special (pretend)
            > relationship with the Inner
            > Mahanta. This is where one
            > develops a codependent
            > relationship with an imaginary
            > being who is, actually, ones
            > own "inner" self.
            >
            > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
            > and welcome-in those EKists
            > who didn't show up often at
            > EK events and those non-EKists
            > who were curious about Eckankar
            > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
            > like.
            >
            > However, regardless of one's
            > sincerity and confidence of
            > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
            > are still very subjective, and
            > uniquely personal. Therefore
            > I'm sure that everyone on this
            > site (ESA) has a different and
            > unique view, as well as, unique
            > and private "spiritual" experiences
            > that have led us to where we
            > are now... wherever that is!
            > I'm sure that it's still in flux
            > as we continue to explore
            > within our own semi-established
            > beliefs.
            >
            > Prometheus
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