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  • Lady
    Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 19, 2012
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      Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative, but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to live it.

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
      >
      > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
      > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
      > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
      > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
      >
      > ***
      >
      > That's ironic. Here's why.
      >
      >  The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
      > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
      >
      > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
      > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
      > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
      > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
      > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
      >
      >    The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
      > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
      >
      > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
      > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
      > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
      > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
      > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
      >
      >
      > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
      > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
      >
      > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
      > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
      > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
      > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
      > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
      > Divine Grace.'"
      >
      >  The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
      > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
      >
      > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
      > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
      > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
      > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
      > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
      > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
      > Grace.'"
      >
      > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
      >
      > OK. You'll love this next one :)
      >
      > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
      > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
      > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
      > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
      > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
      > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
      > splendors of Rome. [....]"
      >
      > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
      > 432, 2nd paragraph.
      >
      > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
      >
      >
      > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
      > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
      > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
      > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
      > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
      > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
      > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
      >
      > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
      > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
      > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
      > paragraph.
      >
      > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
      > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
      >
      > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
      > corresponding quotes).
      >
      > TKTE - p. 40
      >
      > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
      >
      > PTP p. 21
      >
      > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith
      >
      > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
      > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
      > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
      > version.
      >
      > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
      > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
      > text.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Wed, Sep 19, 2012 6:49 pm
      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or
      > Posting Comments on this site:
      >
      >  
      > Hello All,
      > Thanks for sharing and
      > bringing up this subject.
      > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
      > for them, feel rather aloof
      > and spiritually advanced
      > due to the "number" on
      > their EK membership cards.
      >
      > They are deluded enough
      > to think that this number
      > is an indication of Higher
      > Con because the liar Twitchell
      > said it was in order to
      > sell more memberships
      > and materials. Klemp
      > continues the lie!
      >
      > The biggest argument for
      > these deluded people are
      > the few stories told of Twit,
      > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
      > seen somewhere on the
      > streets, etc. or in a dream
      > before these newbies saw
      > their pictures and were
      > told that these were EK
      > "Masters."
      >
      > Klemp has even revamped
      > people's experiences of having
      > seen Jesus by having Ekists
      > show them pics of Gopal Das,
      > whereby, they suddenly realized
      > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
      > It was a mistake in identity
      > and was actually Gopal Das
      > whom they saw!
      >
      > The truth is most H.I.s have
      > little to no actual spiritual
      > experiences or dreams and
      > they grab at straws. The
      > amount of experiences are
      > no more than any other group
      > that focuses upon mental
      > techniques during meditation
      > or before going to sleep.
      >
      > As with all religions it is
      > a matter of faith and belief
      > and Klemp has even mentioned
      > that was this was the real
      > key to Eckankar.
      >
      > I remember once that Klemp
      > told 4th initiates to hang out
      > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
      > to share in their consciousness
      > and prepare for their 5th. One
      > person I knew quit hanging
      > out with her non-H.I. friends
      > and even looked down her nose
      > at lower initiates (like herself).
      >
      > Basically, as it is within any
      > hierarchy, the long timers
      > want to see the newbies go
      > through the same amount
      > of crap they had to go through.
      > It's jealously and envy.
      >
      > These H.I.s don't know anymore
      > about spiritual matters than
      > the next person because it's
      > all subjective.
      >
      > Basically, old outdated techniques
      > like focusing upon the Third-
      > Eye versus the Crown chakra
      > will never be changed even
      > though an older EK discourse
      > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
      >
      > Other than that it's all about
      > selling and supporting Klemp's
      > ego and the EK Organization
      > which is Klemp's inherited
      > vocation and spiritual con.
      >
      > Thus, the survival of the EK
      > Org. and support of Klemp's
      > second rate books will continue
      > to be the central focus of Eckankar
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
      > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
      > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
      > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
      > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
      > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
      > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
      > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
      > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
      >
      > Lady wrote:
      >
      > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
      > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
      > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
      > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
      > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
      > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
      > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
      > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
      > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
      > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
      > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
      > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
      > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
      > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
      > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
      > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
      > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
      > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
      > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
      > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
      > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
      > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
      > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
      > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
      > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
      > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
      > the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      > >
      > > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
      > > you want to join this site (ESA) and
      > > whether you have: any connections
      > > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
      > > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
      > > & insights involving Harold Klemp
      > > and/or Eckankar.
      > >
      > > Thanks,
      > > Prometheus
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All, As far as my religious views... well, I can t even say I m a pagan. I don t believe in any religion. In some ways I m both
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 21, 2012
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        Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
        As far as my religious views...
        well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
        I don't believe in any religion.
        In some ways I'm both theist
        and deist, thus, I'm neither
        agnostic or atheist. I do believe
        that a deity or deities of some
        sort exist or existed and they
        began or seeded the universes.

        And, (IMO) I believe that there
        is some sort of "intervention."
        This is merely one reason as
        to why "spiritual/religious"
        experiences i.e. miracles were
        explained. People will naturally
        imagine/create, via the mind,
        all sorts of things. Religions
        have simply used these events/
        experiences to reenforce their
        hold upon people. Still, IMO,
        there are unexplainable mysterious
        non-religious connections.
        We can even call this a Soul
        to Soul connection linked to
        an overall network (Over-Soul
        i.e. Spirit).

        Thus, I do believe that there
        is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
        whereby, people can experience
        and/or tap into this "divine"
        (or not) mental-energy source.
        IMO We are all "plugged" into
        this network by various ways
        and means and at various
        levels (not planes).

        There are many variables.
        It could be that this "Source"
        is a mental and DNA link
        that expands as we open
        up certain areas of the mind.
        Thus, our potential is enabled
        more and more as we naturally
        use our curiosity to explore
        and expand via technology
        and new thought patterns.
        It's obvious, to me, that
        every individual is at their
        own unique stage of evolution.

        Group religions create a plateau
        and will merely close off and
        stunt potential growth/expansion
        of awareness for individuals.
        This is why all religions will
        use and rely upon "belief" and
        "faith" to reenforce their religious
        foundation. Klemp has done
        the same with Eckankar.

        ********************************

        When I was an EK leader I would
        go out of my way to talk to people
        individually, especially, after the
        EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
        would even encourage the cleric
        and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
        to the newbies whether EKists
        or non-EKists instead of gathering
        in groups with their friends.

        I tried to give people what they
        were seeking but via of the EK
        teachings. Still, there's a lot of
        subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
        Guidelines and EK Dogma does
        tend to limit what one is supposed
        to share. And, it was difficult
        and somewhat frustrating to
        discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
        with people who had not read
        of or understood (been suckered
        into) that special (pretend)
        relationship with the Inner
        Mahanta. This is where one
        develops a codependent
        relationship with an imaginary
        being who is, actually, ones
        own "inner" self.

        Anyway, I did greet, listen to
        and welcome-in those EKists
        who didn't show up often at
        EK events and those non-EKists
        who were curious about Eckankar
        and seeing what "ECKists" looked
        like.

        However, regardless of one's
        sincerity and confidence of
        belief, discussions of the "Divine"
        are still very subjective, and
        uniquely personal. Therefore
        I'm sure that everyone on this
        site (ESA) has a different and
        unique view, as well as, unique
        and private "spiritual" experiences
        that have led us to where we
        are now... wherever that is!
        I'm sure that it's still in flux
        as we continue to explore
        within our own semi-established
        beliefs.

        Prometheus



        "Lady" wrote:
        Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
        mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
        group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
        boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
        introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
        to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
        just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
        became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
        but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
        was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
        that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
        wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
        live it.

        etznab wrote:
        >
        > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
        > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
        > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
        > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
        >
        > ***
        >
        > That's ironic. Here's why.
        >
        > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
        > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
        >
        > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
        > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
        > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
        > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
        > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
        >
        > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
        > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
        >
        > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
        > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
        > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
        > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
        > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
        >
        >
        > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
        > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
        >
        > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
        > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
        > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
        > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
        > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
        > Divine Grace.'"
        >
        > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
        > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
        >
        > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
        > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
        > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
        > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
        > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
        > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
        > Grace.'"
        >
        > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
        >
        > OK. You'll love this next one :)
        >
        > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
        > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
        > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
        > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
        > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
        > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
        > splendors of Rome. [....]"
        >
        > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
        > 432, 2nd paragraph.
        >
        http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
        >
        >
        > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
        > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
        > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
        > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
        > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
        > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
        > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
        >
        > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
        > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
        > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
        > paragraph.
        >
        > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
        > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
        >
        > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
        > corresponding quotes).
        >
        > TKTE - p. 40
        >
        >
        https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
        Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
        >
        > PTP p. 21
        >
        >
        http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
        th
        >
        > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
        > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
        > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
        > version.
        >
        > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
        > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
        > text.
        >
        >
        prometheus wrote:
        > Hello All,
        > Thanks for sharing and
        > bringing up this subject.
        > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
        > for them, feel rather aloof
        > and spiritually advanced
        > due to the "number" on
        > their EK membership cards.
        >
        > They are deluded enough
        > to think that this number
        > is an indication of Higher
        > Con because the liar Twitchell
        > said it was in order to
        > sell more memberships
        > and materials. Klemp
        > continues the lie!
        >
        > The biggest argument for
        > these deluded people are
        > the few stories told of Twit,
        > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
        > seen somewhere on the
        > streets, etc. or in a dream
        > before these newbies saw
        > their pictures and were
        > told that these were EK
        > "Masters."
        >
        > Klemp has even revamped
        > people's experiences of having
        > seen Jesus by having Ekists
        > show them pics of Gopal Das,
        > whereby, they suddenly realized
        > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
        > It was a mistake in identity
        > and was actually Gopal Das
        > whom they saw!
        >
        > The truth is most H.I.s have
        > little to no actual spiritual
        > experiences or dreams and
        > they grab at straws. The
        > amount of experiences are
        > no more than any other group
        > that focuses upon mental
        > techniques during meditation
        > or before going to sleep.
        >
        > As with all religions it is
        > a matter of faith and belief
        > and Klemp has even mentioned
        > that was this was the real
        > key to Eckankar.
        >
        > I remember once that Klemp
        > told 4th initiates to hang out
        > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
        > to share in their consciousness
        > and prepare for their 5th. One
        > person I knew quit hanging
        > out with her non-H.I. friends
        > and even looked down her nose
        > at lower initiates (like herself).
        >
        > Basically, as it is within any
        > hierarchy, the long timers
        > want to see the newbies go
        > through the same amount
        > of crap they had to go through.
        > It's jealously and envy.
        >
        > These H.I.s don't know anymore
        > about spiritual matters than
        > the next person because it's
        > all subjective.
        >
        > Basically, old outdated techniques
        > like focusing upon the Third-
        > Eye versus the Crown chakra
        > will never be changed even
        > though an older EK discourse
        > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
        >
        > Other than that it's all about
        > selling and supporting Klemp's
        > ego and the EK Organization
        > which is Klemp's inherited
        > vocation and spiritual con.
        >
        > Thus, the survival of the EK
        > Org. and support of Klemp's
        > second rate books will continue
        > to be the central focus of Eckankar
        >
        > Prometheus
        >


        > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

        > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
        > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
        > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
        > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
        > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
        > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
        > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
        > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
        > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
        >
        > Lady wrote:
        >
        > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
        > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
        > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
        > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
        > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
        > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
        > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
        > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
        > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
        > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
        > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
        > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
        > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
        > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
        > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
        > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
        > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
        > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
        > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
        > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
        > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
        > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
        > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
        > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
        > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
        > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
        > the truth or will figure it out.

        Rowan.
      • Lady Rowan
        Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 22, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  

          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:

           
          Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
          As far as my religious views...
          well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
          I don't believe in any religion.
          In some ways I'm both theist
          and deist, thus, I'm neither
          agnostic or atheist. I do believe
          that a deity or deities of some
          sort exist or existed and they
          began or seeded the universes.

          And, (IMO) I believe that there
          is some sort of "intervention."
          This is merely one reason as
          to why "spiritual/religious"
          experiences i.e. miracles were
          explained. People will naturally
          imagine/create, via the mind,
          all sorts of things. Religions
          have simply used these events/
          experiences to reenforce their
          hold upon people. Still, IMO,
          there are unexplainable mysterious
          non-religious connections.
          We can even call this a Soul
          to Soul connection linked to
          an overall network (Over-Soul
          i.e. Spirit).

          Thus, I do believe that there
          is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
          whereby, people can experience
          and/or tap into this "divine"
          (or not) mental-energy source.
          IMO We are all "plugged" into
          this network by various ways
          and means and at various
          levels (not planes).

          There are many variables.
          It could be that this "Source"
          is a mental and DNA link
          that expands as we open
          up certain areas of the mind.
          Thus, our potential is enabled
          more and more as we naturally
          use our curiosity to explore
          and expand via technology
          and new thought patterns.
          It's obvious, to me, that
          every individual is at their
          own unique stage of evolution.

          Group religions create a plateau
          and will merely close off and
          stunt potential growth/expansion
          of awareness for individuals.
          This is why all religions will
          use and rely upon "belief" and
          "faith" to reenforce their religious
          foundation. Klemp has done
          the same with Eckankar.

          ********************************

          When I was an EK leader I would
          go out of my way to talk to people
          individually, especially, after the
          EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
          would even encourage the cleric
          and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
          to the newbies whether EKists
          or non-EKists instead of gathering
          in groups with their friends.

          I tried to give people what they
          were seeking but via of the EK
          teachings. Still, there's a lot of
          subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
          Guidelines and EK Dogma does
          tend to limit what one is supposed
          to share. And, it was difficult
          and somewhat frustrating to
          discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
          with people who had not read
          of or understood (been suckered
          into) that special (pretend)
          relationship with the Inner
          Mahanta. This is where one
          develops a codependent
          relationship with an imaginary
          being who is, actually, ones
          own "inner" self.

          Anyway, I did greet, listen to
          and welcome-in those EKists
          who didn't show up often at
          EK events and those non-EKists
          who were curious about Eckankar
          and seeing what "ECKists" looked
          like.

          However, regardless of one's
          sincerity and confidence of
          belief, discussions of the "Divine"
          are still very subjective, and
          uniquely personal. Therefore
          I'm sure that everyone on this
          site (ESA) has a different and
          unique view, as well as, unique
          and private "spiritual" experiences
          that have led us to where we
          are now... wherever that is!
          I'm sure that it's still in flux
          as we continue to explore
          within our own semi-established
          beliefs.

          Prometheus

          "Lady" wrote:
          Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
          mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
          group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
          boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
          introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
          to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
          just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
          became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
          but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
          was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
          that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
          wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
          live it.

          etznab wrote:
          >
          > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
          > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they
          suddenly
          > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
          > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
          >
          > ***
          >
          > That's ironic. Here's why.
          >
          > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
          > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
          >
          > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
          > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
          > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
          > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
          > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
          >
          > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
          > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
          >
          > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
          > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the
          whole ECK,' he was
          > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
          > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
          > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
          >
          >
          > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
          > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
          >
          > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
          > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
          > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
          > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
          > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
          > Divine Grace.'"
          >
          > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
          > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The
          Princes":
          >
          > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
          > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
          > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
          > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
          > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
          > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
          > Grace.'"
          >
          > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
          >
          > OK. You'll love this next one :)
          >
          > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
          > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
          > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors.
          When Jesus,
          > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
          > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
          > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
          > splendors of Rome. [....]"
          >
          > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
          > 432, 2nd paragraph.
          >
          http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
          >
          >
          > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
          > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
          > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
          > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
          > walked the dusty
          streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
          > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
          > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
          >
          > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
          > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
          > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
          > paragraph.
          >
          > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
          > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
          >
          > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
          > corresponding quotes).
          >
          > TKTE - p. 40
          >
          >
          https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
          Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

          >
          > PTP p. 21
          >
          >
          http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
          th

          >
          > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
          > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
          > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
          > version.
          >
          > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
          > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
          > text.
          >
          >
          prometheus wrote:
          > Hello All,
          > Thanks for sharing and
          > bringing up this subject.
          > Many
          H.I.s, unfortunately
          > for them, feel rather aloof
          > and spiritually advanced
          > due to the "number" on
          > their EK membership cards.
          >
          > They are deluded enough
          > to think that this number
          > is an indication of Higher
          > Con because the liar Twitchell
          > said it was in order to
          > sell more memberships
          > and materials. Klemp
          > continues the lie!
          >
          > The biggest argument for
          > these deluded people are
          > the few stories told of Twit,
          > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
          > seen somewhere on the
          > streets, etc. or in a dream
          > before these newbies saw
          > their pictures and were
          > told that these were EK
          > "Masters."
          >
          > Klemp has even revamped
          > people's experiences of having
          > seen Jesus by having Ekists
          > show them pics of Gopal Das,
          > whereby, they suddenly realized
          > that it wasn't
          Jesus after all.
          > It was a mistake in identity
          > and was actually Gopal Das
          > whom they saw!
          >
          > The truth is most H.I.s have
          > little to no actual spiritual
          > experiences or dreams and
          > they grab at straws. The
          > amount of experiences are
          > no more than any other group
          > that focuses upon mental
          > techniques during meditation
          > or before going to sleep.
          >
          > As with all religions it is
          > a matter of faith and belief
          > and Klemp has even mentioned
          > that was this was the real
          > key to Eckankar.
          >
          > I remember once that Klemp
          > told 4th initiates to hang out
          > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
          > to share in their consciousness
          > and prepare for their 5th. One
          > person I knew quit hanging
          > out with her non-H.I. friends
          > and even looked down her nose
          > at lower initiates (like
          herself).
          >
          > Basically, as it is within any
          > hierarchy, the long timers
          > want to see the newbies go
          > through the same amount
          > of crap they had to go through.
          > It's jealously and envy.
          >
          > These H.I.s don't know anymore
          > about spiritual matters than
          > the next person because it's
          > all subjective.
          >
          > Basically, old outdated techniques
          > like focusing upon the Third-
          > Eye versus the Crown chakra
          > will never be changed even
          > though an older EK discourse
          > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
          >
          > Other than that it's all about
          > selling and supporting Klemp's
          > ego and the EK Organization
          > which is Klemp's inherited
          > vocation and spiritual con.
          >
          > Thus, the survival of the EK
          > Org. and support of Klemp's
          > second rate books will continue
          > to be the central focus of
          Eckankar
          >
          > Prometheus
          >

          > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

          > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
          > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
          > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
          > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
          > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
          > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
          > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
          > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
          > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
          >
          > Lady wrote:
          >
          > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
          > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
          > some history
          behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
          > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
          > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
          > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
          > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
          > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
          > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
          > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
          > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
          > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
          > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
          > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
          > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated
          words of the
          > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
          > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
          > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
          > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
          > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
          > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
          > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
          > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
          > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
          > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
          > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
          > the truth or will figure it out.

          Rowan.



        • Non
          Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 2, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics, depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

            For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive and change into a hunter or prey....

            I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it. We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or just is what it is.

            We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

            Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the pretentious fake promises.

            Non ; )

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...> wrote:
            >
            > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind
            > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:
            >
            >
            >  
            > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
            > As far as my religious views...
            > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
            > I don't believe in any religion.
            > In some ways I'm both theist
            > and deist, thus, I'm neither
            > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
            > that a deity or deities of some
            > sort exist or existed and they
            > began or seeded the universes.
            >
            > And, (IMO) I believe that there
            > is some sort of "intervention."
            > This is merely one reason as
            > to why "spiritual/religious"
            > experiences i.e. miracles were
            > explained. People will naturally
            > imagine/create, via the mind,
            > all sorts of things. Religions
            > have simply used these events/
            > experiences to reenforce their
            > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
            > there are unexplainable mysterious
            > non-religious connections.
            > We can even call this a Soul
            > to Soul connection linked to
            > an overall network (Over-Soul
            > i.e. Spirit).
            >
            > Thus, I do believe that there
            > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
            > whereby, people can experience
            > and/or tap into this "divine"
            > (or not) mental-energy source.
            > IMO We are all "plugged" into
            > this network by various ways
            > and means and at various
            > levels (not planes).
            >
            > There are many variables.
            > It could be that this "Source"
            > is a mental and DNA link
            > that expands as we open
            > up certain areas of the mind.
            > Thus, our potential is enabled
            > more and more as we naturally
            > use our curiosity to explore
            > and expand via technology
            > and new thought patterns.
            > It's obvious, to me, that
            > every individual is at their
            > own unique stage of evolution.
            >
            > Group religions create a plateau
            > and will merely close off and
            > stunt potential growth/expansion
            > of awareness for individuals.
            > This is why all religions will
            > use and rely upon "belief" and
            > "faith" to reenforce their religious
            > foundation. Klemp has done
            > the same with Eckankar.
            >
            > ********************************
            >
            > When I was an EK leader I would
            > go out of my way to talk to people
            > individually, especially, after the
            > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
            > would even encourage the cleric
            > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
            > to the newbies whether EKists
            > or non-EKists instead of gathering
            > in groups with their friends.
            >
            > I tried to give people what they
            > were seeking but via of the EK
            > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
            > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
            > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
            > tend to limit what one is supposed
            > to share. And, it was difficult
            > and somewhat frustrating to
            > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
            > with people who had not read
            > of or understood (been suckered
            > into) that special (pretend)
            > relationship with the Inner
            > Mahanta. This is where one
            > develops a codependent
            > relationship with an imaginary
            > being who is, actually, ones
            > own "inner" self.
            >
            > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
            > and welcome-in those EKists
            > who didn't show up often at
            > EK events and those non-EKists
            > who were curious about Eckankar
            > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
            > like.
            >
            > However, regardless of one's
            > sincerity and confidence of
            > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
            > are still very subjective, and
            > uniquely personal. Therefore
            > I'm sure that everyone on this
            > site (ESA) has a different and
            > unique view, as well as, unique
            > and private "spiritual" experiences
            > that have led us to where we
            > are now... wherever that is!
            > I'm sure that it's still in flux
            > as we continue to explore
            > within our own semi-established
            > beliefs.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > "Lady" wrote:
            > Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
            > mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
            > group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
            > boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
            > introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
            > to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
            > just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
            > became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
            > but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
            > was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
            > that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
            > wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
            > live it.
            >
            > etznab wrote:
            > >
            > > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
            > > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
            > > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
            > > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
            > >
            > > ***
            > >
            > > That's ironic. Here's why.
            > >
            > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
            > > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
            > >
            > > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
            > > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
            > > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
            > > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
            > > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
            > >
            > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
            > > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
            > >
            > > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
            > > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
            > > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
            > > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
            > > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
            > >
            > >
            > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
            > > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
            > >
            > > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
            > > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
            > > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
            > > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
            > > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
            > > Divine Grace.'"
            > >
            > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
            > > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
            > >
            > > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
            > > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
            > > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
            > > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
            > > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
            > > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
            > > Grace.'"
            > >
            > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
            > >
            > > OK. You'll love this next one :)
            > >
            > > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
            > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
            > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
            > > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
            > > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
            > > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
            > > splendors of Rome. [....]"
            > >
            > > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
            > > 432, 2nd paragraph.
            > >
            > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
            > >
            > >
            > > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
            > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
            > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
            > > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
            > > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
            > > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
            > > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
            > >
            > > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
            > > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
            > > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
            > > paragraph.
            > >
            > > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
            > > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
            > >
            > > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
            > > corresponding quotes).
            > >
            > > TKTE - p. 40
            > >
            > >
            > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
            > Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
            > >
            > > PTP p. 21
            > >
            > >
            > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
            > th
            > >
            > > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
            > > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
            > > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
            > > version.
            > >
            > > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
            > > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
            > > text.
            > >
            > >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > > Hello All,
            > > Thanks for sharing and
            > > bringing up this subject.
            > > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
            > > for them, feel rather aloof
            > > and spiritually advanced
            > > due to the "number" on
            > > their EK membership cards.
            > >
            > > They are deluded enough
            > > to think that this number
            > > is an indication of Higher
            > > Con because the liar Twitchell
            > > said it was in order to
            > > sell more memberships
            > > and materials. Klemp
            > > continues the lie!
            > >
            > > The biggest argument for
            > > these deluded people are
            > > the few stories told of Twit,
            > > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
            > > seen somewhere on the
            > > streets, etc. or in a dream
            > > before these newbies saw
            > > their pictures and were
            > > told that these were EK
            > > "Masters."
            > >
            > > Klemp has even revamped
            > > people's experiences of having
            > > seen Jesus by having Ekists
            > > show them pics of Gopal Das,
            > > whereby, they suddenly realized
            > > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
            > > It was a mistake in identity
            > > and was actually Gopal Das
            > > whom they saw!
            > >
            > > The truth is most H.I.s have
            > > little to no actual spiritual
            > > experiences or dreams and
            > > they grab at straws. The
            > > amount of experiences are
            > > no more than any other group
            > > that focuses upon mental
            > > techniques during meditation
            > > or before going to sleep.
            > >
            > > As with all religions it is
            > > a matter of faith and belief
            > > and Klemp has even mentioned
            > > that was this was the real
            > > key to Eckankar.
            > >
            > > I remember once that Klemp
            > > told 4th initiates to hang out
            > > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
            > > to share in their consciousness
            > > and prepare for their 5th. One
            > > person I knew quit hanging
            > > out with her non-H.I. friends
            > > and even looked down her nose
            > > at lower initiates (like herself).
            > >
            > > Basically, as it is within any
            > > hierarchy, the long timers
            > > want to see the newbies go
            > > through the same amount
            > > of crap they had to go through.
            > > It's jealously and envy.
            > >
            > > These H.I.s don't know anymore
            > > about spiritual matters than
            > > the next person because it's
            > > all subjective.
            > >
            > > Basically, old outdated techniques
            > > like focusing upon the Third-
            > > Eye versus the Crown chakra
            > > will never be changed even
            > > though an older EK discourse
            > > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
            > >
            > > Other than that it's all about
            > > selling and supporting Klemp's
            > > ego and the EK Organization
            > > which is Klemp's inherited
            > > vocation and spiritual con.
            > >
            > > Thus, the survival of the EK
            > > Org. and support of Klemp's
            > > second rate books will continue
            > > to be the central focus of Eckankar
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            >
            > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            >
            > > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
            > > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
            > > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
            > > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
            > > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
            > > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
            > > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
            > > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
            > > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
            > >
            > > Lady wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
            > > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
            > > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
            > > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
            > > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
            > > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
            > > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
            > > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
            > > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
            > > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
            > > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
            > > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
            > > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
            > > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
            > > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
            > > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
            > > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
            > > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
            > > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
            > > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
            > > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
            > > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
            > > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
            > > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
            > > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
            > > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
            > > the truth or will figure it out.
            >
            > Rowan.
            >
          • Lady Rowan
            Yup, I agree with you about Ramtha...she creeps me out, even in the movie...but I m talking about the science of quantum physics, M theory, and string theory,
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 5, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Yup, I agree with you about Ramtha...she creeps me out, even in the movie...but I'm talking about the science of quantum physics, M theory, and string theory, which have nothing to do with JZ Knight's 'religion' and to me, very disturbing teaching if you see all of it.  I just find it very interesting.  Thanks for sharing.  R

              From: Non <eckchains@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 2:15 AM
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:

               
              Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics, depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

              For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive and change into a hunter or prey....

              I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it. We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or just is what it is.

              We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

              Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the pretentious fake promises.

              Non ; )

              --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...> wrote:
              >
              > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind
              > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              > To: mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:
              >
              >
              >  
              > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
              > As far as my religious views...
              > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
              > I don't believe in any religion.
              > In some ways I'm both theist
              > and deist, thus, I'm neither
              > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
              > that a deity or deities of some
              > sort exist or existed and they
              > began or seeded the universes.
              >
              > And, (IMO) I believe that there
              > is some sort of "intervention."
              > This is merely one reason as
              > to why "spiritual/religious"
              > experiences i.e. miracles were
              > explained. People will naturally
              > imagine/create, via the mind,
              > all sorts of things. Religions
              > have simply used these events/
              > experiences to reenforce their
              > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
              > there are unexplainable mysterious
              > non-religious connections.
              > We can even call this a Soul
              > to Soul connection linked to
              > an overall network (Over-Soul
              > i.e. Spirit).
              >
              > Thus, I do believe that there
              > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
              > whereby, people can experience
              > and/or tap into this "divine"
              > (or not) mental-energy source.
              > IMO We are all "plugged" into
              > this network by various ways
              > and means and at various
              > levels (not planes).
              >
              > There are many variables.
              > It could be that this "Source"
              > is a mental and DNA link
              > that expands as we open
              > up certain areas of the mind.
              > Thus, our potential is enabled
              > more and more as we naturally
              > use our curiosity to explore
              > and expand via technology
              > and new thought patterns.
              > It's obvious, to me, that
              > every individual is at their
              > own unique stage of evolution.
              >
              > Group religions create a plateau
              > and will merely close off and
              > stunt potential growth/expansion
              > of awareness for individuals.
              > This is why all religions will
              > use and rely upon "belief" and
              > "faith" to reenforce their religious
              > foundation. Klemp has done
              > the same with Eckankar.
              >
              > ********************************
              >
              > When I was an EK leader I would
              > go out of my way to talk to people
              > individually, especially, after the
              > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
              > would even encourage the cleric
              > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
              > to the newbies whether EKists
              > or non-EKists instead of gathering
              > in groups with their friends.
              >
              > I tried to give people what they
              > were seeking but via of the EK
              > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
              > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
              > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
              > tend to limit what one is supposed
              > to share. And, it was difficult
              > and somewhat frustrating to
              > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
              > with people who had not read
              > of or understood (been suckered
              > into) that special (pretend)
              > relationship with the Inner
              > Mahanta. This is where one
              > develops a codependent
              > relationship with an imaginary
              > being who is, actually, ones
              > own "inner" self.
              >
              > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
              > and welcome-in those EKists
              > who didn't show up often at
              > EK events and those non-EKists
              > who were curious about Eckankar
              > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
              > like.
              >
              > However, regardless of one's
              > sincerity and confidence of
              > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
              > are still very subjective, and
              > uniquely personal. Therefore
              > I'm sure that everyone on this
              > site (ESA) has a different and
              > unique view, as well as, unique
              > and private "spiritual" experiences
              > that have led us to where we
              > are now... wherever that is!
              > I'm sure that it's still in flux
              > as we continue to explore
              > within our own semi-established
              > beliefs.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > "Lady" wrote:
              > Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
              > mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
              > group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
              > boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
              > introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
              > to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
              > just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
              > became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
              > but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
              > was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
              > that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
              > wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
              > live it.
              >
              > etznab wrote:
              > >
              > > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
              > > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
              > > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
              > > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
              > >
              > > ***
              > >
              > > That's ironic. Here's why.
              > >
              > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
              > > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
              > >
              > > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
              > > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
              > > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
              > > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
              > > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
              > >
              > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
              > > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
              > >
              > > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
              > > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
              > > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
              > > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
              > > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
              > >
              > >
              > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
              > > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
              > >
              > > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
              > > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
              > > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
              > > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
              > > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
              > > Divine Grace.'"
              > >
              > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
              > > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
              > >
              > > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
              > > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
              > > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
              > > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
              > > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
              > > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
              > > Grace.'"
              > >
              > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
              > >
              > > OK. You'll love this next one :)
              > >
              > > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
              > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
              > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
              > > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
              > > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
              > > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
              > > splendors of Rome. [....]"
              > >
              > > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
              > > 432, 2nd paragraph.
              > >
              > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
              > >
              > >
              > > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
              > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
              > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
              > > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
              > > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
              > > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
              > > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
              > >
              > > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
              > > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
              > > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
              > > paragraph.
              > >
              > > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
              > > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
              > >
              > > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
              > > corresponding quotes).
              > >
              > > TKTE - p. 40
              > >
              > >
              > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
              > Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
              > >
              > > PTP p. 21
              > >
              > >
              > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
              > th
              > >
              > > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
              > > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
              > > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
              > > version.
              > >
              > > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
              > > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
              > > text.
              > >
              > >
              > prometheus wrote:
              > > Hello All,
              > > Thanks for sharing and
              > > bringing up this subject.
              > > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
              > > for them, feel rather aloof
              > > and spiritually advanced
              > > due to the "number" on
              > > their EK membership cards.
              > >
              > > They are deluded enough
              > > to think that this number
              > > is an indication of Higher
              > > Con because the liar Twitchell
              > > said it was in order to
              > > sell more memberships
              > > and materials. Klemp
              > > continues the lie!
              > >
              > > The biggest argument for
              > > these deluded people are
              > > the few stories told of Twit,
              > > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
              > > seen somewhere on the
              > > streets, etc. or in a dream
              > > before these newbies saw
              > > their pictures and were
              > > told that these were EK
              > > "Masters."
              > >
              > > Klemp has even revamped
              > > people's experiences of having
              > > seen Jesus by having Ekists
              > > show them pics of Gopal Das,
              > > whereby, they suddenly realized
              > > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
              > > It was a mistake in identity
              > > and was actually Gopal Das
              > > whom they saw!
              > >
              > > The truth is most H.I.s have
              > > little to no actual spiritual
              > > experiences or dreams and
              > > they grab at straws. The
              > > amount of experiences are
              > > no more than any other group
              > > that focuses upon mental
              > > techniques during meditation
              > > or before going to sleep.
              > >
              > > As with all religions it is
              > > a matter of faith and belief
              > > and Klemp has even mentioned
              > > that was this was the real
              > > key to Eckankar.
              > >
              > > I remember once that Klemp
              > > told 4th initiates to hang out
              > > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
              > > to share in their consciousness
              > > and prepare for their 5th. One
              > > person I knew quit hanging
              > > out with her non-H.I. friends
              > > and even looked down her nose
              > > at lower initiates (like herself).
              > >
              > > Basically, as it is within any
              > > hierarchy, the long timers
              > > want to see the newbies go
              > > through the same amount
              > > of crap they had to go through.
              > > It's jealously and envy.
              > >
              > > These H.I.s don't know anymore
              > > about spiritual matters than
              > > the next person because it's
              > > all subjective.
              > >
              > > Basically, old outdated techniques
              > > like focusing upon the Third-
              > > Eye versus the Crown chakra
              > > will never be changed even
              > > though an older EK discourse
              > > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
              > >
              > > Other than that it's all about
              > > selling and supporting Klemp's
              > > ego and the EK Organization
              > > which is Klemp's inherited
              > > vocation and spiritual con.
              > >
              > > Thus, the survival of the EK
              > > Org. and support of Klemp's
              > > second rate books will continue
              > > to be the central focus of Eckankar
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              >
              > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              >
              > > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
              > > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
              > > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
              > > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
              > > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
              > > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
              > > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
              > > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
              > > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
              > >
              > > Lady wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
              > > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
              > > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
              > > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
              > > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
              > > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
              > > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
              > > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
              > > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
              > > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
              > > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
              > > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
              > > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
              > > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
              > > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
              > > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
              > > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
              > > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
              > > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
              > > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
              > > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
              > > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
              > > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
              > > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
              > > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
              > > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
              > > the truth or will figure it out.
              >
              > Rowan.
              >



            • prometheus_973
              Hello Non eckchains, I ll have to admit that I didn t like What the Bleep. I know it had a big Canadian following like Adam Dreamhealer who, btw, also used
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 11, 2012
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                Hello Non eckchains,
                I'll have to admit that
                I didn't like "What the Bleep."
                I know it had a big Canadian
                following like Adam Dreamhealer
                who, btw, also used the
                Quantum whatever speak.
                Dreamhealer is a young
                con artist whose father, mother,
                and sister were all part of
                the con. Adam had a ghost
                writer co-author and do his
                first book. Have you ever heard
                the New Age term "organic"
                being used to describe all
                sorts of things. It's like with
                "quantum." All of these people
                are looking for a following
                and to use the right "hook"
                depending upon their audience
                of perspective suckers... like
                with Eckankar.

                Prometheus


                "Non" eckchains wrote:
                Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with
                Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very
                Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum
                physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call
                Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the
                micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics,
                depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking
                across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

                For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social
                animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are
                there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of
                exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a
                gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy
                animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive
                and change into a hunter or prey....

                I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed
                real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it.
                We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or
                just is what it is.

                We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of
                overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we
                have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

                Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another
                dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality
                and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too
                carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes
                so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or
                later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last
                legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the
                pretentious fake promises.

                Non ; )

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I
                thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any
                kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion
                or following. About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What
                The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it
                fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically
                the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people
                like me), but again always hungered for more. Another fav is Brian Greene's
                The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string
                theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for
                this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but IÂ got
                the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and
                still have a hard time wrapping my mind
                > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most
                High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate
                any of it, as it is so rich. But I do like the fact that science has
                acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to
                me) way.  It's awesome. Rowan Â
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting
                Comments on this site:
                >
                >
                > Â
                > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
                > As far as my religious views...
                > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
                > I don't believe in any religion.
                > In some ways I'm both theist
                > and deist, thus, I'm neither
                > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
                > that a deity or deities of some
                > sort exist or existed and they
                > began or seeded the universes.
                >
                > And, (IMO) I believe that there
                > is some sort of "intervention."
                > This is merely one reason as
                > to why "spiritual/religious"
                > experiences i.e. miracles were
                > explained. People will naturally
                > imagine/create, via the mind,
                > all sorts of things. Religions
                > have simply used these events/
                > experiences to reenforce their
                > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
                > there are unexplainable mysterious
                > non-religious connections.
                > We can even call this a Soul
                > to Soul connection linked to
                > an overall network (Over-Soul
                > i.e. Spirit).
                >
                > Thus, I do believe that there
                > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
                > whereby, people can experience
                > and/or tap into this "divine"
                > (or not) mental-energy source.
                > IMO We are all "plugged" into
                > this network by various ways
                > and means and at various
                > levels (not planes).
                >
                > There are many variables.
                > It could be that this "Source"
                > is a mental and DNA link
                > that expands as we open
                > up certain areas of the mind.
                > Thus, our potential is enabled
                > more and more as we naturally
                > use our curiosity to explore
                > and expand via technology
                > and new thought patterns.
                > It's obvious, to me, that
                > every individual is at their
                > own unique stage of evolution.
                >
                > Group religions create a plateau
                > and will merely close off and
                > stunt potential growth/expansion
                > of awareness for individuals.
                > This is why all religions will
                > use and rely upon "belief" and
                > "faith" to reenforce their religious
                > foundation. Klemp has done
                > the same with Eckankar.
                >
                > ********************************
                >
                > When I was an EK leader I would
                > go out of my way to talk to people
                > individually, especially, after the
                > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
                > would even encourage the cleric
                > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
                > to the newbies whether EKists
                > or non-EKists instead of gathering
                > in groups with their friends.
                >
                > I tried to give people what they
                > were seeking but via of the EK
                > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
                > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
                > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
                > tend to limit what one is supposed
                > to share. And, it was difficult
                > and somewhat frustrating to
                > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
                > with people who had not read
                > of or understood (been suckered
                > into) that special (pretend)
                > relationship with the Inner
                > Mahanta. This is where one
                > develops a codependent
                > relationship with an imaginary
                > being who is, actually, ones
                > own "inner" self.
                >
                > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
                > and welcome-in those EKists
                > who didn't show up often at
                > EK events and those non-EKists
                > who were curious about Eckankar
                > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
                > like.
                >
                > However, regardless of one's
                > sincerity and confidence of
                > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
                > are still very subjective, and
                > uniquely personal. Therefore
                > I'm sure that everyone on this
                > site (ESA) has a different and
                > unique view, as well as, unique
                > and private "spiritual" experiences
                > that have led us to where we
                > are now... wherever that is!
                > I'm sure that it's still in flux
                > as we continue to explore
                > within our own semi-established
                > beliefs.
                >
                > Prometheus
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