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Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, Thanks for sharing and bringing up this subject. Many H.I.s, unfortunately for them, feel rather aloof and spiritually advanced due to the number
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 19, 2012
      Hello All,
      Thanks for sharing and
      bringing up this subject.
      Many H.I.s, unfortunately
      for them, feel rather aloof
      and spiritually advanced
      due to the "number" on
      their EK membership cards.

      They are deluded enough
      to think that this number
      is an indication of Higher
      Con because the liar Twitchell
      said it was in order to
      sell more memberships
      and materials. Klemp
      continues the lie!

      The biggest argument for
      these deluded people are
      the few stories told of Twit,
      Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
      seen somewhere on the
      streets, etc. or in a dream
      before these newbies saw
      their pictures and were
      told that these were EK
      "Masters."

      Klemp has even revamped
      people's experiences of having
      seen Jesus by having Ekists
      show them pics of Gopal Das,
      whereby, they suddenly realized
      that it wasn't Jesus after all.
      It was a mistake in identity
      and was actually Gopal Das
      whom they saw!

      The truth is most H.I.s have
      little to no actual spiritual
      experiences or dreams and
      they grab at straws. The
      amount of experiences are
      no more than any other group
      that focuses upon mental
      techniques during meditation
      or before going to sleep.

      As with all religions it is
      a matter of faith and belief
      and Klemp has even mentioned
      that was this was the real
      key to Eckankar.

      I remember once that Klemp
      told 4th initiates to hang out
      with 5ths and 6ths as a way
      to share in their consciousness
      and prepare for their 5th. One
      person I knew quit hanging
      out with her non-H.I. friends
      and even looked down her nose
      at lower initiates (like herself).

      Basically, as it is within any
      hierarchy, the long timers
      want to see the newbies go
      through the same amount
      of crap they had to go through.
      It's jealously and envy.

      These H.I.s don't know anymore
      about spiritual matters than
      the next person because it's
      all subjective.

      Basically, old outdated techniques
      like focusing upon the Third-
      Eye versus the Crown chakra
      will never be changed even
      though an older EK discourse
      uses the Crown Chakra technique.

      Other than that it's all about
      selling and supporting Klemp's
      ego and the EK Organization
      which is Klemp's inherited
      vocation and spiritual con.

      Thus, the survival of the EK
      Org. and support of Klemp's
      second rate books will continue
      to be the central focus of Eckankar

      Prometheus




      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.

      Lady wrote:

      Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up. I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!! But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy, and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite enough, there was no real substance, just regurgitated words of the same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.

      prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
      > you want to join this site (ESA) and
      > whether you have: any connections
      > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
      > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
      > & insights involving Harold Klemp
      > and/or Eckankar.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Prometheus
    • etznab@aol.com
      Klemp has even revamped people s experiences of having seen Jesus by having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly realized that it wasn t
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 19, 2012
        "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
        having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
        realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
        and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"

        ***

        That's ironic. Here's why.

         The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
        Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:

        "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
        more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
        were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
        To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
        exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."

           The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
        Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:

        "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
        `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
        saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
        grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
        for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."


        The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
        Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":

        Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
        live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
        way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
        Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
        by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
        Divine Grace.'"

         The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
        Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":

        Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
        have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
        said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
        Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
        Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
        conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
        Grace.'"

        http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html

        OK. You'll love this next one :)

        "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
        spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
        when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
        who might have commanded any army — so great was his mental energy —
        walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
        the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
        splendors of Rome. [....]"

        Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
        432, 2nd paragraph.

        http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt


        "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
        spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
        when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
        Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
        walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
        that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
        greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"

        Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
        Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
        copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
        paragraph.

        Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
        Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.

        Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
        corresponding quotes).

        TKTE - p. 40

        https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

        PTP p. 21

        http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith

        Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
        Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
        the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
        version.

        Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
        the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
        text.






        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wed, Sep 19, 2012 6:49 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or
        Posting Comments on this site:

         
        Hello All,
        Thanks for sharing and
        bringing up this subject.
        Many H.I.s, unfortunately
        for them, feel rather aloof
        and spiritually advanced
        due to the "number" on
        their EK membership cards.

        They are deluded enough
        to think that this number
        is an indication of Higher
        Con because the liar Twitchell
        said it was in order to
        sell more memberships
        and materials. Klemp
        continues the lie!

        The biggest argument for
        these deluded people are
        the few stories told of Twit,
        Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
        seen somewhere on the
        streets, etc. or in a dream
        before these newbies saw
        their pictures and were
        told that these were EK
        "Masters."

        Klemp has even revamped
        people's experiences of having
        seen Jesus by having Ekists
        show them pics of Gopal Das,
        whereby, they suddenly realized
        that it wasn't Jesus after all.
        It was a mistake in identity
        and was actually Gopal Das
        whom they saw!

        The truth is most H.I.s have
        little to no actual spiritual
        experiences or dreams and
        they grab at straws. The
        amount of experiences are
        no more than any other group
        that focuses upon mental
        techniques during meditation
        or before going to sleep.

        As with all religions it is
        a matter of faith and belief
        and Klemp has even mentioned
        that was this was the real
        key to Eckankar.

        I remember once that Klemp
        told 4th initiates to hang out
        with 5ths and 6ths as a way
        to share in their consciousness
        and prepare for their 5th. One
        person I knew quit hanging
        out with her non-H.I. friends
        and even looked down her nose
        at lower initiates (like herself).

        Basically, as it is within any
        hierarchy, the long timers
        want to see the newbies go
        through the same amount
        of crap they had to go through.
        It's jealously and envy.

        These H.I.s don't know anymore
        about spiritual matters than
        the next person because it's
        all subjective.

        Basically, old outdated techniques
        like focusing upon the Third-
        Eye versus the Crown chakra
        will never be changed even
        though an older EK discourse
        uses the Crown Chakra technique.

        Other than that it's all about
        selling and supporting Klemp's
        ego and the EK Organization
        which is Klemp's inherited
        vocation and spiritual con.

        Thus, the survival of the EK
        Org. and support of Klemp's
        second rate books will continue
        to be the central focus of Eckankar

        Prometheus

        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
        it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
        shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
        they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
        like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
        and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
        jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
        kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
        they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.

        Lady wrote:

        Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
        because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
        some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
        I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
        clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
        people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
        having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
        somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
        ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
        eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
        than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
        time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
        But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
        and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
        enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
        same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
        wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
        how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
        thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
        me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
        episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
        doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
        best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
        for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
        pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
        the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
        the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.

        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
        > you want to join this site (ESA) and
        > whether you have: any connections
        > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
        > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
        > & insights involving Harold Klemp
        > and/or Eckankar.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Prometheus
      • Lady
        Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 19, 2012
          Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative, but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to live it.

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
          >
          > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
          > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
          > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
          > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
          >
          > ***
          >
          > That's ironic. Here's why.
          >
          >  The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
          > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
          >
          > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
          > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
          > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
          > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
          > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
          >
          >    The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
          > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
          >
          > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
          > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
          > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
          > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
          > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
          >
          >
          > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
          > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
          >
          > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
          > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
          > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
          > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
          > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
          > Divine Grace.'"
          >
          >  The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
          > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
          >
          > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
          > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
          > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
          > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
          > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
          > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
          > Grace.'"
          >
          > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
          >
          > OK. You'll love this next one :)
          >
          > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
          > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
          > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
          > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
          > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
          > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
          > splendors of Rome. [....]"
          >
          > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
          > 432, 2nd paragraph.
          >
          > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
          >
          >
          > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
          > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
          > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
          > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
          > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
          > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
          > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
          >
          > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
          > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
          > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
          > paragraph.
          >
          > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
          > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
          >
          > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
          > corresponding quotes).
          >
          > TKTE - p. 40
          >
          > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
          >
          > PTP p. 21
          >
          > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith
          >
          > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
          > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
          > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
          > version.
          >
          > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
          > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
          > text.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Wed, Sep 19, 2012 6:49 pm
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or
          > Posting Comments on this site:
          >
          >  
          > Hello All,
          > Thanks for sharing and
          > bringing up this subject.
          > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
          > for them, feel rather aloof
          > and spiritually advanced
          > due to the "number" on
          > their EK membership cards.
          >
          > They are deluded enough
          > to think that this number
          > is an indication of Higher
          > Con because the liar Twitchell
          > said it was in order to
          > sell more memberships
          > and materials. Klemp
          > continues the lie!
          >
          > The biggest argument for
          > these deluded people are
          > the few stories told of Twit,
          > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
          > seen somewhere on the
          > streets, etc. or in a dream
          > before these newbies saw
          > their pictures and were
          > told that these were EK
          > "Masters."
          >
          > Klemp has even revamped
          > people's experiences of having
          > seen Jesus by having Ekists
          > show them pics of Gopal Das,
          > whereby, they suddenly realized
          > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
          > It was a mistake in identity
          > and was actually Gopal Das
          > whom they saw!
          >
          > The truth is most H.I.s have
          > little to no actual spiritual
          > experiences or dreams and
          > they grab at straws. The
          > amount of experiences are
          > no more than any other group
          > that focuses upon mental
          > techniques during meditation
          > or before going to sleep.
          >
          > As with all religions it is
          > a matter of faith and belief
          > and Klemp has even mentioned
          > that was this was the real
          > key to Eckankar.
          >
          > I remember once that Klemp
          > told 4th initiates to hang out
          > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
          > to share in their consciousness
          > and prepare for their 5th. One
          > person I knew quit hanging
          > out with her non-H.I. friends
          > and even looked down her nose
          > at lower initiates (like herself).
          >
          > Basically, as it is within any
          > hierarchy, the long timers
          > want to see the newbies go
          > through the same amount
          > of crap they had to go through.
          > It's jealously and envy.
          >
          > These H.I.s don't know anymore
          > about spiritual matters than
          > the next person because it's
          > all subjective.
          >
          > Basically, old outdated techniques
          > like focusing upon the Third-
          > Eye versus the Crown chakra
          > will never be changed even
          > though an older EK discourse
          > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
          >
          > Other than that it's all about
          > selling and supporting Klemp's
          > ego and the EK Organization
          > which is Klemp's inherited
          > vocation and spiritual con.
          >
          > Thus, the survival of the EK
          > Org. and support of Klemp's
          > second rate books will continue
          > to be the central focus of Eckankar
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
          > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
          > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
          > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
          > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
          > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
          > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
          > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
          > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
          >
          > Lady wrote:
          >
          > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
          > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
          > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
          > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
          > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
          > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
          > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
          > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
          > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
          > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
          > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
          > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
          > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
          > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
          > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
          > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
          > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
          > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
          > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
          > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
          > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
          > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
          > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
          > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
          > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
          > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
          > the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
          > > you want to join this site (ESA) and
          > > whether you have: any connections
          > > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
          > > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
          > > & insights involving Harold Klemp
          > > and/or Eckankar.
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Prometheus
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All, As far as my religious views... well, I can t even say I m a pagan. I don t believe in any religion. In some ways I m both
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 21, 2012
            Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
            As far as my religious views...
            well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
            I don't believe in any religion.
            In some ways I'm both theist
            and deist, thus, I'm neither
            agnostic or atheist. I do believe
            that a deity or deities of some
            sort exist or existed and they
            began or seeded the universes.

            And, (IMO) I believe that there
            is some sort of "intervention."
            This is merely one reason as
            to why "spiritual/religious"
            experiences i.e. miracles were
            explained. People will naturally
            imagine/create, via the mind,
            all sorts of things. Religions
            have simply used these events/
            experiences to reenforce their
            hold upon people. Still, IMO,
            there are unexplainable mysterious
            non-religious connections.
            We can even call this a Soul
            to Soul connection linked to
            an overall network (Over-Soul
            i.e. Spirit).

            Thus, I do believe that there
            is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
            whereby, people can experience
            and/or tap into this "divine"
            (or not) mental-energy source.
            IMO We are all "plugged" into
            this network by various ways
            and means and at various
            levels (not planes).

            There are many variables.
            It could be that this "Source"
            is a mental and DNA link
            that expands as we open
            up certain areas of the mind.
            Thus, our potential is enabled
            more and more as we naturally
            use our curiosity to explore
            and expand via technology
            and new thought patterns.
            It's obvious, to me, that
            every individual is at their
            own unique stage of evolution.

            Group religions create a plateau
            and will merely close off and
            stunt potential growth/expansion
            of awareness for individuals.
            This is why all religions will
            use and rely upon "belief" and
            "faith" to reenforce their religious
            foundation. Klemp has done
            the same with Eckankar.

            ********************************

            When I was an EK leader I would
            go out of my way to talk to people
            individually, especially, after the
            EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
            would even encourage the cleric
            and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
            to the newbies whether EKists
            or non-EKists instead of gathering
            in groups with their friends.

            I tried to give people what they
            were seeking but via of the EK
            teachings. Still, there's a lot of
            subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
            Guidelines and EK Dogma does
            tend to limit what one is supposed
            to share. And, it was difficult
            and somewhat frustrating to
            discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
            with people who had not read
            of or understood (been suckered
            into) that special (pretend)
            relationship with the Inner
            Mahanta. This is where one
            develops a codependent
            relationship with an imaginary
            being who is, actually, ones
            own "inner" self.

            Anyway, I did greet, listen to
            and welcome-in those EKists
            who didn't show up often at
            EK events and those non-EKists
            who were curious about Eckankar
            and seeing what "ECKists" looked
            like.

            However, regardless of one's
            sincerity and confidence of
            belief, discussions of the "Divine"
            are still very subjective, and
            uniquely personal. Therefore
            I'm sure that everyone on this
            site (ESA) has a different and
            unique view, as well as, unique
            and private "spiritual" experiences
            that have led us to where we
            are now... wherever that is!
            I'm sure that it's still in flux
            as we continue to explore
            within our own semi-established
            beliefs.

            Prometheus



            "Lady" wrote:
            Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
            mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
            group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
            boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
            introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
            to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
            just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
            became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
            but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
            was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
            that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
            wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
            live it.

            etznab wrote:
            >
            > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
            > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
            > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
            > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
            >
            > ***
            >
            > That's ironic. Here's why.
            >
            > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
            > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
            >
            > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
            > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
            > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
            > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
            > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
            >
            > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
            > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
            >
            > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
            > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
            > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
            > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
            > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
            >
            >
            > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
            > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
            >
            > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
            > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
            > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
            > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
            > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
            > Divine Grace.'"
            >
            > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
            > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
            >
            > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
            > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
            > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
            > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
            > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
            > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
            > Grace.'"
            >
            > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
            >
            > OK. You'll love this next one :)
            >
            > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
            > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
            > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
            > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
            > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
            > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
            > splendors of Rome. [....]"
            >
            > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
            > 432, 2nd paragraph.
            >
            http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
            >
            >
            > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
            > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
            > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
            > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
            > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
            > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
            > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
            >
            > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
            > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
            > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
            > paragraph.
            >
            > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
            > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
            >
            > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
            > corresponding quotes).
            >
            > TKTE - p. 40
            >
            >
            https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
            Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
            >
            > PTP p. 21
            >
            >
            http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
            th
            >
            > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
            > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
            > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
            > version.
            >
            > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
            > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
            > text.
            >
            >
            prometheus wrote:
            > Hello All,
            > Thanks for sharing and
            > bringing up this subject.
            > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
            > for them, feel rather aloof
            > and spiritually advanced
            > due to the "number" on
            > their EK membership cards.
            >
            > They are deluded enough
            > to think that this number
            > is an indication of Higher
            > Con because the liar Twitchell
            > said it was in order to
            > sell more memberships
            > and materials. Klemp
            > continues the lie!
            >
            > The biggest argument for
            > these deluded people are
            > the few stories told of Twit,
            > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
            > seen somewhere on the
            > streets, etc. or in a dream
            > before these newbies saw
            > their pictures and were
            > told that these were EK
            > "Masters."
            >
            > Klemp has even revamped
            > people's experiences of having
            > seen Jesus by having Ekists
            > show them pics of Gopal Das,
            > whereby, they suddenly realized
            > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
            > It was a mistake in identity
            > and was actually Gopal Das
            > whom they saw!
            >
            > The truth is most H.I.s have
            > little to no actual spiritual
            > experiences or dreams and
            > they grab at straws. The
            > amount of experiences are
            > no more than any other group
            > that focuses upon mental
            > techniques during meditation
            > or before going to sleep.
            >
            > As with all religions it is
            > a matter of faith and belief
            > and Klemp has even mentioned
            > that was this was the real
            > key to Eckankar.
            >
            > I remember once that Klemp
            > told 4th initiates to hang out
            > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
            > to share in their consciousness
            > and prepare for their 5th. One
            > person I knew quit hanging
            > out with her non-H.I. friends
            > and even looked down her nose
            > at lower initiates (like herself).
            >
            > Basically, as it is within any
            > hierarchy, the long timers
            > want to see the newbies go
            > through the same amount
            > of crap they had to go through.
            > It's jealously and envy.
            >
            > These H.I.s don't know anymore
            > about spiritual matters than
            > the next person because it's
            > all subjective.
            >
            > Basically, old outdated techniques
            > like focusing upon the Third-
            > Eye versus the Crown chakra
            > will never be changed even
            > though an older EK discourse
            > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
            >
            > Other than that it's all about
            > selling and supporting Klemp's
            > ego and the EK Organization
            > which is Klemp's inherited
            > vocation and spiritual con.
            >
            > Thus, the survival of the EK
            > Org. and support of Klemp's
            > second rate books will continue
            > to be the central focus of Eckankar
            >
            > Prometheus
            >


            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

            > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
            > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
            > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
            > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
            > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
            > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
            > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
            > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
            > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
            >
            > Lady wrote:
            >
            > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
            > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
            > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
            > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
            > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
            > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
            > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
            > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
            > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
            > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
            > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
            > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
            > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
            > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
            > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
            > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
            > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
            > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
            > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
            > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
            > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
            > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
            > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
            > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
            > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
            > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
            > the truth or will figure it out.

            Rowan.
          • Lady Rowan
            Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 22, 2012
              Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  

              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:

               
              Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
              As far as my religious views...
              well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
              I don't believe in any religion.
              In some ways I'm both theist
              and deist, thus, I'm neither
              agnostic or atheist. I do believe
              that a deity or deities of some
              sort exist or existed and they
              began or seeded the universes.

              And, (IMO) I believe that there
              is some sort of "intervention."
              This is merely one reason as
              to why "spiritual/religious"
              experiences i.e. miracles were
              explained. People will naturally
              imagine/create, via the mind,
              all sorts of things. Religions
              have simply used these events/
              experiences to reenforce their
              hold upon people. Still, IMO,
              there are unexplainable mysterious
              non-religious connections.
              We can even call this a Soul
              to Soul connection linked to
              an overall network (Over-Soul
              i.e. Spirit).

              Thus, I do believe that there
              is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
              whereby, people can experience
              and/or tap into this "divine"
              (or not) mental-energy source.
              IMO We are all "plugged" into
              this network by various ways
              and means and at various
              levels (not planes).

              There are many variables.
              It could be that this "Source"
              is a mental and DNA link
              that expands as we open
              up certain areas of the mind.
              Thus, our potential is enabled
              more and more as we naturally
              use our curiosity to explore
              and expand via technology
              and new thought patterns.
              It's obvious, to me, that
              every individual is at their
              own unique stage of evolution.

              Group religions create a plateau
              and will merely close off and
              stunt potential growth/expansion
              of awareness for individuals.
              This is why all religions will
              use and rely upon "belief" and
              "faith" to reenforce their religious
              foundation. Klemp has done
              the same with Eckankar.

              ********************************

              When I was an EK leader I would
              go out of my way to talk to people
              individually, especially, after the
              EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
              would even encourage the cleric
              and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
              to the newbies whether EKists
              or non-EKists instead of gathering
              in groups with their friends.

              I tried to give people what they
              were seeking but via of the EK
              teachings. Still, there's a lot of
              subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
              Guidelines and EK Dogma does
              tend to limit what one is supposed
              to share. And, it was difficult
              and somewhat frustrating to
              discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
              with people who had not read
              of or understood (been suckered
              into) that special (pretend)
              relationship with the Inner
              Mahanta. This is where one
              develops a codependent
              relationship with an imaginary
              being who is, actually, ones
              own "inner" self.

              Anyway, I did greet, listen to
              and welcome-in those EKists
              who didn't show up often at
              EK events and those non-EKists
              who were curious about Eckankar
              and seeing what "ECKists" looked
              like.

              However, regardless of one's
              sincerity and confidence of
              belief, discussions of the "Divine"
              are still very subjective, and
              uniquely personal. Therefore
              I'm sure that everyone on this
              site (ESA) has a different and
              unique view, as well as, unique
              and private "spiritual" experiences
              that have led us to where we
              are now... wherever that is!
              I'm sure that it's still in flux
              as we continue to explore
              within our own semi-established
              beliefs.

              Prometheus

              "Lady" wrote:
              Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
              mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
              group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
              boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
              introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
              to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
              just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
              became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
              but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
              was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
              that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
              wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
              live it.

              etznab wrote:
              >
              > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
              > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they
              suddenly
              > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
              > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
              >
              > ***
              >
              > That's ironic. Here's why.
              >
              > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
              > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
              >
              > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
              > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
              > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
              > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
              > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
              >
              > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
              > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
              >
              > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
              > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the
              whole ECK,' he was
              > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
              > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
              > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
              >
              >
              > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
              > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
              >
              > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
              > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
              > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
              > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
              > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
              > Divine Grace.'"
              >
              > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
              > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The
              Princes":
              >
              > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
              > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
              > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
              > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
              > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
              > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
              > Grace.'"
              >
              > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
              >
              > OK. You'll love this next one :)
              >
              > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
              > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
              > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors.
              When Jesus,
              > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
              > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
              > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
              > splendors of Rome. [....]"
              >
              > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
              > 432, 2nd paragraph.
              >
              http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
              >
              >
              > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
              > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
              > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
              > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
              > walked the dusty
              streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
              > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
              > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
              >
              > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
              > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
              > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
              > paragraph.
              >
              > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
              > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
              >
              > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
              > corresponding quotes).
              >
              > TKTE - p. 40
              >
              >
              https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
              Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

              >
              > PTP p. 21
              >
              >
              http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
              th

              >
              > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
              > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
              > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
              > version.
              >
              > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
              > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
              > text.
              >
              >
              prometheus wrote:
              > Hello All,
              > Thanks for sharing and
              > bringing up this subject.
              > Many
              H.I.s, unfortunately
              > for them, feel rather aloof
              > and spiritually advanced
              > due to the "number" on
              > their EK membership cards.
              >
              > They are deluded enough
              > to think that this number
              > is an indication of Higher
              > Con because the liar Twitchell
              > said it was in order to
              > sell more memberships
              > and materials. Klemp
              > continues the lie!
              >
              > The biggest argument for
              > these deluded people are
              > the few stories told of Twit,
              > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
              > seen somewhere on the
              > streets, etc. or in a dream
              > before these newbies saw
              > their pictures and were
              > told that these were EK
              > "Masters."
              >
              > Klemp has even revamped
              > people's experiences of having
              > seen Jesus by having Ekists
              > show them pics of Gopal Das,
              > whereby, they suddenly realized
              > that it wasn't
              Jesus after all.
              > It was a mistake in identity
              > and was actually Gopal Das
              > whom they saw!
              >
              > The truth is most H.I.s have
              > little to no actual spiritual
              > experiences or dreams and
              > they grab at straws. The
              > amount of experiences are
              > no more than any other group
              > that focuses upon mental
              > techniques during meditation
              > or before going to sleep.
              >
              > As with all religions it is
              > a matter of faith and belief
              > and Klemp has even mentioned
              > that was this was the real
              > key to Eckankar.
              >
              > I remember once that Klemp
              > told 4th initiates to hang out
              > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
              > to share in their consciousness
              > and prepare for their 5th. One
              > person I knew quit hanging
              > out with her non-H.I. friends
              > and even looked down her nose
              > at lower initiates (like
              herself).
              >
              > Basically, as it is within any
              > hierarchy, the long timers
              > want to see the newbies go
              > through the same amount
              > of crap they had to go through.
              > It's jealously and envy.
              >
              > These H.I.s don't know anymore
              > about spiritual matters than
              > the next person because it's
              > all subjective.
              >
              > Basically, old outdated techniques
              > like focusing upon the Third-
              > Eye versus the Crown chakra
              > will never be changed even
              > though an older EK discourse
              > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
              >
              > Other than that it's all about
              > selling and supporting Klemp's
              > ego and the EK Organization
              > which is Klemp's inherited
              > vocation and spiritual con.
              >
              > Thus, the survival of the EK
              > Org. and support of Klemp's
              > second rate books will continue
              > to be the central focus of
              Eckankar
              >
              > Prometheus
              >

              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

              > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
              > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
              > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
              > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
              > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
              > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
              > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
              > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
              > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
              >
              > Lady wrote:
              >
              > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
              > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
              > some history
              behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
              > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
              > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
              > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
              > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
              > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
              > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
              > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
              > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
              > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
              > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
              > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
              > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated
              words of the
              > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
              > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
              > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
              > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
              > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
              > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
              > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
              > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
              > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
              > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
              > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
              > the truth or will figure it out.

              Rowan.



            • Non
              Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 2, 2012
                Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics, depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

                For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive and change into a hunter or prey....

                I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it. We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or just is what it is.

                We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

                Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the pretentious fake promises.

                Non ; )

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...> wrote:
                >
                > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind
                > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:
                >
                >
                >  
                > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
                > As far as my religious views...
                > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
                > I don't believe in any religion.
                > In some ways I'm both theist
                > and deist, thus, I'm neither
                > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
                > that a deity or deities of some
                > sort exist or existed and they
                > began or seeded the universes.
                >
                > And, (IMO) I believe that there
                > is some sort of "intervention."
                > This is merely one reason as
                > to why "spiritual/religious"
                > experiences i.e. miracles were
                > explained. People will naturally
                > imagine/create, via the mind,
                > all sorts of things. Religions
                > have simply used these events/
                > experiences to reenforce their
                > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
                > there are unexplainable mysterious
                > non-religious connections.
                > We can even call this a Soul
                > to Soul connection linked to
                > an overall network (Over-Soul
                > i.e. Spirit).
                >
                > Thus, I do believe that there
                > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
                > whereby, people can experience
                > and/or tap into this "divine"
                > (or not) mental-energy source.
                > IMO We are all "plugged" into
                > this network by various ways
                > and means and at various
                > levels (not planes).
                >
                > There are many variables.
                > It could be that this "Source"
                > is a mental and DNA link
                > that expands as we open
                > up certain areas of the mind.
                > Thus, our potential is enabled
                > more and more as we naturally
                > use our curiosity to explore
                > and expand via technology
                > and new thought patterns.
                > It's obvious, to me, that
                > every individual is at their
                > own unique stage of evolution.
                >
                > Group religions create a plateau
                > and will merely close off and
                > stunt potential growth/expansion
                > of awareness for individuals.
                > This is why all religions will
                > use and rely upon "belief" and
                > "faith" to reenforce their religious
                > foundation. Klemp has done
                > the same with Eckankar.
                >
                > ********************************
                >
                > When I was an EK leader I would
                > go out of my way to talk to people
                > individually, especially, after the
                > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
                > would even encourage the cleric
                > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
                > to the newbies whether EKists
                > or non-EKists instead of gathering
                > in groups with their friends.
                >
                > I tried to give people what they
                > were seeking but via of the EK
                > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
                > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
                > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
                > tend to limit what one is supposed
                > to share. And, it was difficult
                > and somewhat frustrating to
                > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
                > with people who had not read
                > of or understood (been suckered
                > into) that special (pretend)
                > relationship with the Inner
                > Mahanta. This is where one
                > develops a codependent
                > relationship with an imaginary
                > being who is, actually, ones
                > own "inner" self.
                >
                > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
                > and welcome-in those EKists
                > who didn't show up often at
                > EK events and those non-EKists
                > who were curious about Eckankar
                > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
                > like.
                >
                > However, regardless of one's
                > sincerity and confidence of
                > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
                > are still very subjective, and
                > uniquely personal. Therefore
                > I'm sure that everyone on this
                > site (ESA) has a different and
                > unique view, as well as, unique
                > and private "spiritual" experiences
                > that have led us to where we
                > are now... wherever that is!
                > I'm sure that it's still in flux
                > as we continue to explore
                > within our own semi-established
                > beliefs.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > "Lady" wrote:
                > Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
                > mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
                > group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
                > boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
                > introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
                > to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
                > just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
                > became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
                > but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
                > was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
                > that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
                > wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
                > live it.
                >
                > etznab wrote:
                > >
                > > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
                > > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
                > > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
                > > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
                > >
                > > ***
                > >
                > > That's ironic. Here's why.
                > >
                > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
                > > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
                > >
                > > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
                > > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
                > > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
                > > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
                > > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                > >
                > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
                > > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
                > >
                > > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
                > > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
                > > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
                > > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
                > > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                > >
                > >
                > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
                > > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                > >
                > > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
                > > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
                > > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
                > > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
                > > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
                > > Divine Grace.'"
                > >
                > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
                > > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                > >
                > > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
                > > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
                > > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
                > > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
                > > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
                > > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
                > > Grace.'"
                > >
                > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
                > >
                > > OK. You'll love this next one :)
                > >
                > > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
                > > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
                > > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
                > > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
                > > splendors of Rome. [....]"
                > >
                > > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
                > > 432, 2nd paragraph.
                > >
                > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
                > >
                > >
                > > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
                > > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
                > > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
                > > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
                > > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
                > >
                > > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
                > > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
                > > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
                > > paragraph.
                > >
                > > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
                > > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
                > >
                > > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
                > > corresponding quotes).
                > >
                > > TKTE - p. 40
                > >
                > >
                > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
                > Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
                > >
                > > PTP p. 21
                > >
                > >
                > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
                > th
                > >
                > > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
                > > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
                > > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
                > > version.
                > >
                > > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
                > > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
                > > text.
                > >
                > >
                > prometheus wrote:
                > > Hello All,
                > > Thanks for sharing and
                > > bringing up this subject.
                > > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
                > > for them, feel rather aloof
                > > and spiritually advanced
                > > due to the "number" on
                > > their EK membership cards.
                > >
                > > They are deluded enough
                > > to think that this number
                > > is an indication of Higher
                > > Con because the liar Twitchell
                > > said it was in order to
                > > sell more memberships
                > > and materials. Klemp
                > > continues the lie!
                > >
                > > The biggest argument for
                > > these deluded people are
                > > the few stories told of Twit,
                > > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
                > > seen somewhere on the
                > > streets, etc. or in a dream
                > > before these newbies saw
                > > their pictures and were
                > > told that these were EK
                > > "Masters."
                > >
                > > Klemp has even revamped
                > > people's experiences of having
                > > seen Jesus by having Ekists
                > > show them pics of Gopal Das,
                > > whereby, they suddenly realized
                > > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
                > > It was a mistake in identity
                > > and was actually Gopal Das
                > > whom they saw!
                > >
                > > The truth is most H.I.s have
                > > little to no actual spiritual
                > > experiences or dreams and
                > > they grab at straws. The
                > > amount of experiences are
                > > no more than any other group
                > > that focuses upon mental
                > > techniques during meditation
                > > or before going to sleep.
                > >
                > > As with all religions it is
                > > a matter of faith and belief
                > > and Klemp has even mentioned
                > > that was this was the real
                > > key to Eckankar.
                > >
                > > I remember once that Klemp
                > > told 4th initiates to hang out
                > > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
                > > to share in their consciousness
                > > and prepare for their 5th. One
                > > person I knew quit hanging
                > > out with her non-H.I. friends
                > > and even looked down her nose
                > > at lower initiates (like herself).
                > >
                > > Basically, as it is within any
                > > hierarchy, the long timers
                > > want to see the newbies go
                > > through the same amount
                > > of crap they had to go through.
                > > It's jealously and envy.
                > >
                > > These H.I.s don't know anymore
                > > about spiritual matters than
                > > the next person because it's
                > > all subjective.
                > >
                > > Basically, old outdated techniques
                > > like focusing upon the Third-
                > > Eye versus the Crown chakra
                > > will never be changed even
                > > though an older EK discourse
                > > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
                > >
                > > Other than that it's all about
                > > selling and supporting Klemp's
                > > ego and the EK Organization
                > > which is Klemp's inherited
                > > vocation and spiritual con.
                > >
                > > Thus, the survival of the EK
                > > Org. and support of Klemp's
                > > second rate books will continue
                > > to be the central focus of Eckankar
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                >
                > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                >
                > > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
                > > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
                > > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
                > > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
                > > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
                > > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
                > > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
                > > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
                > > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
                > >
                > > Lady wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
                > > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
                > > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
                > > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
                > > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
                > > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
                > > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
                > > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
                > > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
                > > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
                > > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
                > > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
                > > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
                > > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
                > > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
                > > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
                > > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
                > > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
                > > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
                > > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
                > > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
                > > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
                > > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
                > > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
                > > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
                > > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
                > > the truth or will figure it out.
                >
                > Rowan.
                >
              • Lady Rowan
                Yup, I agree with you about Ramtha...she creeps me out, even in the movie...but I m talking about the science of quantum physics, M theory, and string theory,
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 5, 2012
                  Yup, I agree with you about Ramtha...she creeps me out, even in the movie...but I'm talking about the science of quantum physics, M theory, and string theory, which have nothing to do with JZ Knight's 'religion' and to me, very disturbing teaching if you see all of it.  I just find it very interesting.  Thanks for sharing.  R

                  From: Non <eckchains@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 2:15 AM
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:

                   
                  Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics, depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

                  For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive and change into a hunter or prey....

                  I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it. We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or just is what it is.

                  We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

                  Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the pretentious fake promises.

                  Non ; )

                  --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind
                  > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  > To: mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
                  > As far as my religious views...
                  > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
                  > I don't believe in any religion.
                  > In some ways I'm both theist
                  > and deist, thus, I'm neither
                  > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
                  > that a deity or deities of some
                  > sort exist or existed and they
                  > began or seeded the universes.
                  >
                  > And, (IMO) I believe that there
                  > is some sort of "intervention."
                  > This is merely one reason as
                  > to why "spiritual/religious"
                  > experiences i.e. miracles were
                  > explained. People will naturally
                  > imagine/create, via the mind,
                  > all sorts of things. Religions
                  > have simply used these events/
                  > experiences to reenforce their
                  > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
                  > there are unexplainable mysterious
                  > non-religious connections.
                  > We can even call this a Soul
                  > to Soul connection linked to
                  > an overall network (Over-Soul
                  > i.e. Spirit).
                  >
                  > Thus, I do believe that there
                  > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
                  > whereby, people can experience
                  > and/or tap into this "divine"
                  > (or not) mental-energy source.
                  > IMO We are all "plugged" into
                  > this network by various ways
                  > and means and at various
                  > levels (not planes).
                  >
                  > There are many variables.
                  > It could be that this "Source"
                  > is a mental and DNA link
                  > that expands as we open
                  > up certain areas of the mind.
                  > Thus, our potential is enabled
                  > more and more as we naturally
                  > use our curiosity to explore
                  > and expand via technology
                  > and new thought patterns.
                  > It's obvious, to me, that
                  > every individual is at their
                  > own unique stage of evolution.
                  >
                  > Group religions create a plateau
                  > and will merely close off and
                  > stunt potential growth/expansion
                  > of awareness for individuals.
                  > This is why all religions will
                  > use and rely upon "belief" and
                  > "faith" to reenforce their religious
                  > foundation. Klemp has done
                  > the same with Eckankar.
                  >
                  > ********************************
                  >
                  > When I was an EK leader I would
                  > go out of my way to talk to people
                  > individually, especially, after the
                  > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
                  > would even encourage the cleric
                  > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
                  > to the newbies whether EKists
                  > or non-EKists instead of gathering
                  > in groups with their friends.
                  >
                  > I tried to give people what they
                  > were seeking but via of the EK
                  > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
                  > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
                  > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
                  > tend to limit what one is supposed
                  > to share. And, it was difficult
                  > and somewhat frustrating to
                  > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
                  > with people who had not read
                  > of or understood (been suckered
                  > into) that special (pretend)
                  > relationship with the Inner
                  > Mahanta. This is where one
                  > develops a codependent
                  > relationship with an imaginary
                  > being who is, actually, ones
                  > own "inner" self.
                  >
                  > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
                  > and welcome-in those EKists
                  > who didn't show up often at
                  > EK events and those non-EKists
                  > who were curious about Eckankar
                  > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
                  > like.
                  >
                  > However, regardless of one's
                  > sincerity and confidence of
                  > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
                  > are still very subjective, and
                  > uniquely personal. Therefore
                  > I'm sure that everyone on this
                  > site (ESA) has a different and
                  > unique view, as well as, unique
                  > and private "spiritual" experiences
                  > that have led us to where we
                  > are now... wherever that is!
                  > I'm sure that it's still in flux
                  > as we continue to explore
                  > within our own semi-established
                  > beliefs.
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > "Lady" wrote:
                  > Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
                  > mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
                  > group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
                  > boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
                  > introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
                  > to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
                  > just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
                  > became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
                  > but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
                  > was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
                  > that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
                  > wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
                  > live it.
                  >
                  > etznab wrote:
                  > >
                  > > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
                  > > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
                  > > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
                  > > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
                  > >
                  > > ***
                  > >
                  > > That's ironic. Here's why.
                  > >
                  > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
                  > > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
                  > >
                  > > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
                  > > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
                  > > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
                  > > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
                  > > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                  > >
                  > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
                  > > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
                  > >
                  > > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
                  > > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
                  > > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
                  > > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
                  > > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
                  > > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                  > >
                  > > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
                  > > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
                  > > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
                  > > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
                  > > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
                  > > Divine Grace.'"
                  > >
                  > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
                  > > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                  > >
                  > > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
                  > > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
                  > > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
                  > > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
                  > > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
                  > > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
                  > > Grace.'"
                  > >
                  > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
                  > >
                  > > OK. You'll love this next one :)
                  > >
                  > > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                  > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                  > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
                  > > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
                  > > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
                  > > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
                  > > splendors of Rome. [....]"
                  > >
                  > > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
                  > > 432, 2nd paragraph.
                  > >
                  > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                  > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                  > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
                  > > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
                  > > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
                  > > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
                  > > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
                  > >
                  > > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
                  > > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
                  > > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
                  > > paragraph.
                  > >
                  > > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
                  > > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
                  > >
                  > > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
                  > > corresponding quotes).
                  > >
                  > > TKTE - p. 40
                  > >
                  > >
                  > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
                  > Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
                  > >
                  > > PTP p. 21
                  > >
                  > >
                  > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
                  > th
                  > >
                  > > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
                  > > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
                  > > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
                  > > version.
                  > >
                  > > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
                  > > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
                  > > text.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  > > Hello All,
                  > > Thanks for sharing and
                  > > bringing up this subject.
                  > > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
                  > > for them, feel rather aloof
                  > > and spiritually advanced
                  > > due to the "number" on
                  > > their EK membership cards.
                  > >
                  > > They are deluded enough
                  > > to think that this number
                  > > is an indication of Higher
                  > > Con because the liar Twitchell
                  > > said it was in order to
                  > > sell more memberships
                  > > and materials. Klemp
                  > > continues the lie!
                  > >
                  > > The biggest argument for
                  > > these deluded people are
                  > > the few stories told of Twit,
                  > > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
                  > > seen somewhere on the
                  > > streets, etc. or in a dream
                  > > before these newbies saw
                  > > their pictures and were
                  > > told that these were EK
                  > > "Masters."
                  > >
                  > > Klemp has even revamped
                  > > people's experiences of having
                  > > seen Jesus by having Ekists
                  > > show them pics of Gopal Das,
                  > > whereby, they suddenly realized
                  > > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
                  > > It was a mistake in identity
                  > > and was actually Gopal Das
                  > > whom they saw!
                  > >
                  > > The truth is most H.I.s have
                  > > little to no actual spiritual
                  > > experiences or dreams and
                  > > they grab at straws. The
                  > > amount of experiences are
                  > > no more than any other group
                  > > that focuses upon mental
                  > > techniques during meditation
                  > > or before going to sleep.
                  > >
                  > > As with all religions it is
                  > > a matter of faith and belief
                  > > and Klemp has even mentioned
                  > > that was this was the real
                  > > key to Eckankar.
                  > >
                  > > I remember once that Klemp
                  > > told 4th initiates to hang out
                  > > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
                  > > to share in their consciousness
                  > > and prepare for their 5th. One
                  > > person I knew quit hanging
                  > > out with her non-H.I. friends
                  > > and even looked down her nose
                  > > at lower initiates (like herself).
                  > >
                  > > Basically, as it is within any
                  > > hierarchy, the long timers
                  > > want to see the newbies go
                  > > through the same amount
                  > > of crap they had to go through.
                  > > It's jealously and envy.
                  > >
                  > > These H.I.s don't know anymore
                  > > about spiritual matters than
                  > > the next person because it's
                  > > all subjective.
                  > >
                  > > Basically, old outdated techniques
                  > > like focusing upon the Third-
                  > > Eye versus the Crown chakra
                  > > will never be changed even
                  > > though an older EK discourse
                  > > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
                  > >
                  > > Other than that it's all about
                  > > selling and supporting Klemp's
                  > > ego and the EK Organization
                  > > which is Klemp's inherited
                  > > vocation and spiritual con.
                  > >
                  > > Thus, the survival of the EK
                  > > Org. and support of Klemp's
                  > > second rate books will continue
                  > > to be the central focus of Eckankar
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  >
                  > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                  >
                  > > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
                  > > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
                  > > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
                  > > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
                  > > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
                  > > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
                  > > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
                  > > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
                  > > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
                  > >
                  > > Lady wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
                  > > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
                  > > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
                  > > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
                  > > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
                  > > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
                  > > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
                  > > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
                  > > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
                  > > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
                  > > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
                  > > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
                  > > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
                  > > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
                  > > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
                  > > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
                  > > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
                  > > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
                  > > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
                  > > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
                  > > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
                  > > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
                  > > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
                  > > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
                  > > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
                  > > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
                  > > the truth or will figure it out.
                  >
                  > Rowan.
                  >



                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Non eckchains, I ll have to admit that I didn t like What the Bleep. I know it had a big Canadian following like Adam Dreamhealer who, btw, also used
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 11, 2012
                    Hello Non eckchains,
                    I'll have to admit that
                    I didn't like "What the Bleep."
                    I know it had a big Canadian
                    following like Adam Dreamhealer
                    who, btw, also used the
                    Quantum whatever speak.
                    Dreamhealer is a young
                    con artist whose father, mother,
                    and sister were all part of
                    the con. Adam had a ghost
                    writer co-author and do his
                    first book. Have you ever heard
                    the New Age term "organic"
                    being used to describe all
                    sorts of things. It's like with
                    "quantum." All of these people
                    are looking for a following
                    and to use the right "hook"
                    depending upon their audience
                    of perspective suckers... like
                    with Eckankar.

                    Prometheus


                    "Non" eckchains wrote:
                    Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with
                    Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very
                    Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum
                    physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call
                    Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the
                    micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics,
                    depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking
                    across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

                    For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social
                    animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are
                    there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of
                    exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a
                    gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy
                    animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive
                    and change into a hunter or prey....

                    I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed
                    real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it.
                    We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or
                    just is what it is.

                    We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of
                    overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we
                    have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

                    Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another
                    dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality
                    and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too
                    carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes
                    so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or
                    later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last
                    legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the
                    pretentious fake promises.

                    Non ; )

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I
                    thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any
                    kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion
                    or following. About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What
                    The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it
                    fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically
                    the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people
                    like me), but again always hungered for more. Another fav is Brian Greene's
                    The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string
                    theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for
                    this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but IÂ got
                    the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and
                    still have a hard time wrapping my mind
                    > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most
                    High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate
                    any of it, as it is so rich. But I do like the fact that science has
                    acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to
                    me) way.  It's awesome. Rowan Â
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting
                    Comments on this site:
                    >
                    >
                    > Â
                    > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
                    > As far as my religious views...
                    > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
                    > I don't believe in any religion.
                    > In some ways I'm both theist
                    > and deist, thus, I'm neither
                    > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
                    > that a deity or deities of some
                    > sort exist or existed and they
                    > began or seeded the universes.
                    >
                    > And, (IMO) I believe that there
                    > is some sort of "intervention."
                    > This is merely one reason as
                    > to why "spiritual/religious"
                    > experiences i.e. miracles were
                    > explained. People will naturally
                    > imagine/create, via the mind,
                    > all sorts of things. Religions
                    > have simply used these events/
                    > experiences to reenforce their
                    > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
                    > there are unexplainable mysterious
                    > non-religious connections.
                    > We can even call this a Soul
                    > to Soul connection linked to
                    > an overall network (Over-Soul
                    > i.e. Spirit).
                    >
                    > Thus, I do believe that there
                    > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
                    > whereby, people can experience
                    > and/or tap into this "divine"
                    > (or not) mental-energy source.
                    > IMO We are all "plugged" into
                    > this network by various ways
                    > and means and at various
                    > levels (not planes).
                    >
                    > There are many variables.
                    > It could be that this "Source"
                    > is a mental and DNA link
                    > that expands as we open
                    > up certain areas of the mind.
                    > Thus, our potential is enabled
                    > more and more as we naturally
                    > use our curiosity to explore
                    > and expand via technology
                    > and new thought patterns.
                    > It's obvious, to me, that
                    > every individual is at their
                    > own unique stage of evolution.
                    >
                    > Group religions create a plateau
                    > and will merely close off and
                    > stunt potential growth/expansion
                    > of awareness for individuals.
                    > This is why all religions will
                    > use and rely upon "belief" and
                    > "faith" to reenforce their religious
                    > foundation. Klemp has done
                    > the same with Eckankar.
                    >
                    > ********************************
                    >
                    > When I was an EK leader I would
                    > go out of my way to talk to people
                    > individually, especially, after the
                    > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
                    > would even encourage the cleric
                    > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
                    > to the newbies whether EKists
                    > or non-EKists instead of gathering
                    > in groups with their friends.
                    >
                    > I tried to give people what they
                    > were seeking but via of the EK
                    > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
                    > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
                    > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
                    > tend to limit what one is supposed
                    > to share. And, it was difficult
                    > and somewhat frustrating to
                    > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
                    > with people who had not read
                    > of or understood (been suckered
                    > into) that special (pretend)
                    > relationship with the Inner
                    > Mahanta. This is where one
                    > develops a codependent
                    > relationship with an imaginary
                    > being who is, actually, ones
                    > own "inner" self.
                    >
                    > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
                    > and welcome-in those EKists
                    > who didn't show up often at
                    > EK events and those non-EKists
                    > who were curious about Eckankar
                    > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
                    > like.
                    >
                    > However, regardless of one's
                    > sincerity and confidence of
                    > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
                    > are still very subjective, and
                    > uniquely personal. Therefore
                    > I'm sure that everyone on this
                    > site (ESA) has a different and
                    > unique view, as well as, unique
                    > and private "spiritual" experiences
                    > that have led us to where we
                    > are now... wherever that is!
                    > I'm sure that it's still in flux
                    > as we continue to explore
                    > within our own semi-established
                    > beliefs.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
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