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Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:

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  • Lady
    Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is because I was curious. I was actually googling the Hu looking for some history behind it
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 19 7:37 AM
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      Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up. I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!! But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy, and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite enough, there was no real substance, just regurgitated words of the same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
      > you want to join this site (ESA) and
      > whether you have: any connections
      > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
      > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
      > & insights involving Harold Klemp
      > and/or Eckankar.
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Prometheus
      >
    • Janice Pfeiffer
      Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in.  You did it so well.  Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates shy away from
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 19 8:33 AM
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        Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in.  You did it so well.  Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also like you say show they don't know a lot anyway.  When I was very new and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so.  It was kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences they had not had.  Thanks again for your posting.

        --- On Wed, 9/19/12, Lady <ladyrowan07@...> wrote:

        From: Lady <ladyrowan07@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 2:37 PM

         
        Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up. I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!! But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy, and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite enough, there was no real substance, just regurgitated words of the same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
        > you want to join this site (ESA) and
        > whether you have: any connections
        > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
        > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
        > & insights involving Harold Klemp
        > and/or Eckankar.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Prometheus
        >

      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, Thanks for sharing and bringing up this subject. Many H.I.s, unfortunately for them, feel rather aloof and spiritually advanced due to the number
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 19 4:49 PM
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          Hello All,
          Thanks for sharing and
          bringing up this subject.
          Many H.I.s, unfortunately
          for them, feel rather aloof
          and spiritually advanced
          due to the "number" on
          their EK membership cards.

          They are deluded enough
          to think that this number
          is an indication of Higher
          Con because the liar Twitchell
          said it was in order to
          sell more memberships
          and materials. Klemp
          continues the lie!

          The biggest argument for
          these deluded people are
          the few stories told of Twit,
          Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
          seen somewhere on the
          streets, etc. or in a dream
          before these newbies saw
          their pictures and were
          told that these were EK
          "Masters."

          Klemp has even revamped
          people's experiences of having
          seen Jesus by having Ekists
          show them pics of Gopal Das,
          whereby, they suddenly realized
          that it wasn't Jesus after all.
          It was a mistake in identity
          and was actually Gopal Das
          whom they saw!

          The truth is most H.I.s have
          little to no actual spiritual
          experiences or dreams and
          they grab at straws. The
          amount of experiences are
          no more than any other group
          that focuses upon mental
          techniques during meditation
          or before going to sleep.

          As with all religions it is
          a matter of faith and belief
          and Klemp has even mentioned
          that was this was the real
          key to Eckankar.

          I remember once that Klemp
          told 4th initiates to hang out
          with 5ths and 6ths as a way
          to share in their consciousness
          and prepare for their 5th. One
          person I knew quit hanging
          out with her non-H.I. friends
          and even looked down her nose
          at lower initiates (like herself).

          Basically, as it is within any
          hierarchy, the long timers
          want to see the newbies go
          through the same amount
          of crap they had to go through.
          It's jealously and envy.

          These H.I.s don't know anymore
          about spiritual matters than
          the next person because it's
          all subjective.

          Basically, old outdated techniques
          like focusing upon the Third-
          Eye versus the Crown chakra
          will never be changed even
          though an older EK discourse
          uses the Crown Chakra technique.

          Other than that it's all about
          selling and supporting Klemp's
          ego and the EK Organization
          which is Klemp's inherited
          vocation and spiritual con.

          Thus, the survival of the EK
          Org. and support of Klemp's
          second rate books will continue
          to be the central focus of Eckankar

          Prometheus




          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.

          Lady wrote:

          Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up. I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!! But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy, and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite enough, there was no real substance, just regurgitated words of the same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
          > you want to join this site (ESA) and
          > whether you have: any connections
          > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
          > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
          > & insights involving Harold Klemp
          > and/or Eckankar.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Prometheus
        • etznab@aol.com
          Klemp has even revamped people s experiences of having seen Jesus by having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly realized that it wasn t
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 19 5:38 PM
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            "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
            having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
            realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
            and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"

            ***

            That's ironic. Here's why.

             The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
            Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:

            "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
            more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
            were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
            To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
            exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."

               The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
            Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:

            "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
            `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
            saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
            grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
            for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."


            The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
            Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":

            Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
            live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
            way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
            Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
            by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
            Divine Grace.'"

             The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
            Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":

            Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
            have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
            said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
            Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
            Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
            conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
            Grace.'"

            http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html

            OK. You'll love this next one :)

            "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
            spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
            when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
            who might have commanded any army — so great was his mental energy —
            walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
            the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
            splendors of Rome. [....]"

            Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
            432, 2nd paragraph.

            http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt


            "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
            spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
            when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
            Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
            walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
            that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
            greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"

            Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
            Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
            copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
            paragraph.

            Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
            Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.

            Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
            corresponding quotes).

            TKTE - p. 40

            https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

            PTP p. 21

            http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith

            Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
            Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
            the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
            version.

            Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
            the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
            text.






            -----Original Message-----
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wed, Sep 19, 2012 6:49 pm
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or
            Posting Comments on this site:

             
            Hello All,
            Thanks for sharing and
            bringing up this subject.
            Many H.I.s, unfortunately
            for them, feel rather aloof
            and spiritually advanced
            due to the "number" on
            their EK membership cards.

            They are deluded enough
            to think that this number
            is an indication of Higher
            Con because the liar Twitchell
            said it was in order to
            sell more memberships
            and materials. Klemp
            continues the lie!

            The biggest argument for
            these deluded people are
            the few stories told of Twit,
            Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
            seen somewhere on the
            streets, etc. or in a dream
            before these newbies saw
            their pictures and were
            told that these were EK
            "Masters."

            Klemp has even revamped
            people's experiences of having
            seen Jesus by having Ekists
            show them pics of Gopal Das,
            whereby, they suddenly realized
            that it wasn't Jesus after all.
            It was a mistake in identity
            and was actually Gopal Das
            whom they saw!

            The truth is most H.I.s have
            little to no actual spiritual
            experiences or dreams and
            they grab at straws. The
            amount of experiences are
            no more than any other group
            that focuses upon mental
            techniques during meditation
            or before going to sleep.

            As with all religions it is
            a matter of faith and belief
            and Klemp has even mentioned
            that was this was the real
            key to Eckankar.

            I remember once that Klemp
            told 4th initiates to hang out
            with 5ths and 6ths as a way
            to share in their consciousness
            and prepare for their 5th. One
            person I knew quit hanging
            out with her non-H.I. friends
            and even looked down her nose
            at lower initiates (like herself).

            Basically, as it is within any
            hierarchy, the long timers
            want to see the newbies go
            through the same amount
            of crap they had to go through.
            It's jealously and envy.

            These H.I.s don't know anymore
            about spiritual matters than
            the next person because it's
            all subjective.

            Basically, old outdated techniques
            like focusing upon the Third-
            Eye versus the Crown chakra
            will never be changed even
            though an older EK discourse
            uses the Crown Chakra technique.

            Other than that it's all about
            selling and supporting Klemp's
            ego and the EK Organization
            which is Klemp's inherited
            vocation and spiritual con.

            Thus, the survival of the EK
            Org. and support of Klemp's
            second rate books will continue
            to be the central focus of Eckankar

            Prometheus

            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
            it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
            shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
            they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
            like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
            and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
            jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
            kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
            they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.

            Lady wrote:

            Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
            because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
            some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
            I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
            clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
            people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
            having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
            somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
            ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
            eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
            than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
            time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
            But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
            and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
            enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
            same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
            wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
            how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
            thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
            me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
            episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
            doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
            best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
            for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
            pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
            the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
            the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
            > you want to join this site (ESA) and
            > whether you have: any connections
            > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
            > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
            > & insights involving Harold Klemp
            > and/or Eckankar.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Prometheus
          • Lady
            Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 19 6:32 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative, but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to live it.

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
              >
              > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
              > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
              > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
              > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
              >
              > ***
              >
              > That's ironic. Here's why.
              >
              >  The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
              > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
              >
              > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
              > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
              > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
              > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
              > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
              >
              >    The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
              > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
              >
              > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
              > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
              > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
              > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
              > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
              >
              >
              > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
              > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
              >
              > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
              > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
              > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
              > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
              > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
              > Divine Grace.'"
              >
              >  The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
              > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
              >
              > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
              > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
              > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
              > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
              > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
              > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
              > Grace.'"
              >
              > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
              >
              > OK. You'll love this next one :)
              >
              > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
              > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
              > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
              > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
              > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
              > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
              > splendors of Rome. [....]"
              >
              > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
              > 432, 2nd paragraph.
              >
              > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
              >
              >
              > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
              > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
              > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
              > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
              > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
              > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
              > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
              >
              > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
              > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
              > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
              > paragraph.
              >
              > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
              > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
              >
              > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
              > corresponding quotes).
              >
              > TKTE - p. 40
              >
              > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
              >
              > PTP p. 21
              >
              > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith
              >
              > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
              > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
              > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
              > version.
              >
              > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
              > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
              > text.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Wed, Sep 19, 2012 6:49 pm
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or
              > Posting Comments on this site:
              >
              >  
              > Hello All,
              > Thanks for sharing and
              > bringing up this subject.
              > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
              > for them, feel rather aloof
              > and spiritually advanced
              > due to the "number" on
              > their EK membership cards.
              >
              > They are deluded enough
              > to think that this number
              > is an indication of Higher
              > Con because the liar Twitchell
              > said it was in order to
              > sell more memberships
              > and materials. Klemp
              > continues the lie!
              >
              > The biggest argument for
              > these deluded people are
              > the few stories told of Twit,
              > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
              > seen somewhere on the
              > streets, etc. or in a dream
              > before these newbies saw
              > their pictures and were
              > told that these were EK
              > "Masters."
              >
              > Klemp has even revamped
              > people's experiences of having
              > seen Jesus by having Ekists
              > show them pics of Gopal Das,
              > whereby, they suddenly realized
              > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
              > It was a mistake in identity
              > and was actually Gopal Das
              > whom they saw!
              >
              > The truth is most H.I.s have
              > little to no actual spiritual
              > experiences or dreams and
              > they grab at straws. The
              > amount of experiences are
              > no more than any other group
              > that focuses upon mental
              > techniques during meditation
              > or before going to sleep.
              >
              > As with all religions it is
              > a matter of faith and belief
              > and Klemp has even mentioned
              > that was this was the real
              > key to Eckankar.
              >
              > I remember once that Klemp
              > told 4th initiates to hang out
              > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
              > to share in their consciousness
              > and prepare for their 5th. One
              > person I knew quit hanging
              > out with her non-H.I. friends
              > and even looked down her nose
              > at lower initiates (like herself).
              >
              > Basically, as it is within any
              > hierarchy, the long timers
              > want to see the newbies go
              > through the same amount
              > of crap they had to go through.
              > It's jealously and envy.
              >
              > These H.I.s don't know anymore
              > about spiritual matters than
              > the next person because it's
              > all subjective.
              >
              > Basically, old outdated techniques
              > like focusing upon the Third-
              > Eye versus the Crown chakra
              > will never be changed even
              > though an older EK discourse
              > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
              >
              > Other than that it's all about
              > selling and supporting Klemp's
              > ego and the EK Organization
              > which is Klemp's inherited
              > vocation and spiritual con.
              >
              > Thus, the survival of the EK
              > Org. and support of Klemp's
              > second rate books will continue
              > to be the central focus of Eckankar
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
              > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
              > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
              > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
              > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
              > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
              > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
              > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
              > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
              >
              > Lady wrote:
              >
              > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
              > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
              > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
              > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
              > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
              > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
              > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
              > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
              > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
              > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
              > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
              > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
              > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
              > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
              > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
              > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
              > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
              > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
              > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
              > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
              > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
              > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
              > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
              > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
              > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
              > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
              > the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
              > > you want to join this site (ESA) and
              > > whether you have: any connections
              > > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
              > > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
              > > & insights involving Harold Klemp
              > > and/or Eckankar.
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > > Prometheus
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All, As far as my religious views... well, I can t even say I m a pagan. I don t believe in any religion. In some ways I m both
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 21 10:04 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
                As far as my religious views...
                well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
                I don't believe in any religion.
                In some ways I'm both theist
                and deist, thus, I'm neither
                agnostic or atheist. I do believe
                that a deity or deities of some
                sort exist or existed and they
                began or seeded the universes.

                And, (IMO) I believe that there
                is some sort of "intervention."
                This is merely one reason as
                to why "spiritual/religious"
                experiences i.e. miracles were
                explained. People will naturally
                imagine/create, via the mind,
                all sorts of things. Religions
                have simply used these events/
                experiences to reenforce their
                hold upon people. Still, IMO,
                there are unexplainable mysterious
                non-religious connections.
                We can even call this a Soul
                to Soul connection linked to
                an overall network (Over-Soul
                i.e. Spirit).

                Thus, I do believe that there
                is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
                whereby, people can experience
                and/or tap into this "divine"
                (or not) mental-energy source.
                IMO We are all "plugged" into
                this network by various ways
                and means and at various
                levels (not planes).

                There are many variables.
                It could be that this "Source"
                is a mental and DNA link
                that expands as we open
                up certain areas of the mind.
                Thus, our potential is enabled
                more and more as we naturally
                use our curiosity to explore
                and expand via technology
                and new thought patterns.
                It's obvious, to me, that
                every individual is at their
                own unique stage of evolution.

                Group religions create a plateau
                and will merely close off and
                stunt potential growth/expansion
                of awareness for individuals.
                This is why all religions will
                use and rely upon "belief" and
                "faith" to reenforce their religious
                foundation. Klemp has done
                the same with Eckankar.

                ********************************

                When I was an EK leader I would
                go out of my way to talk to people
                individually, especially, after the
                EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
                would even encourage the cleric
                and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
                to the newbies whether EKists
                or non-EKists instead of gathering
                in groups with their friends.

                I tried to give people what they
                were seeking but via of the EK
                teachings. Still, there's a lot of
                subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
                Guidelines and EK Dogma does
                tend to limit what one is supposed
                to share. And, it was difficult
                and somewhat frustrating to
                discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
                with people who had not read
                of or understood (been suckered
                into) that special (pretend)
                relationship with the Inner
                Mahanta. This is where one
                develops a codependent
                relationship with an imaginary
                being who is, actually, ones
                own "inner" self.

                Anyway, I did greet, listen to
                and welcome-in those EKists
                who didn't show up often at
                EK events and those non-EKists
                who were curious about Eckankar
                and seeing what "ECKists" looked
                like.

                However, regardless of one's
                sincerity and confidence of
                belief, discussions of the "Divine"
                are still very subjective, and
                uniquely personal. Therefore
                I'm sure that everyone on this
                site (ESA) has a different and
                unique view, as well as, unique
                and private "spiritual" experiences
                that have led us to where we
                are now... wherever that is!
                I'm sure that it's still in flux
                as we continue to explore
                within our own semi-established
                beliefs.

                Prometheus



                "Lady" wrote:
                Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
                mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
                group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
                boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
                introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
                to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
                just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
                became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
                but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
                was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
                that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
                wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
                live it.

                etznab wrote:
                >
                > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
                > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
                > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
                > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
                >
                > ***
                >
                > That's ironic. Here's why.
                >
                > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
                > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
                >
                > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
                > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
                > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
                > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
                > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                >
                > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
                > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
                >
                > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
                > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
                > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
                > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
                > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                >
                >
                > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
                > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                >
                > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
                > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
                > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
                > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
                > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
                > Divine Grace.'"
                >
                > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
                > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                >
                > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
                > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
                > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
                > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
                > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
                > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
                > Grace.'"
                >
                > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
                >
                > OK. You'll love this next one :)
                >
                > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
                > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
                > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
                > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
                > splendors of Rome. [....]"
                >
                > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
                > 432, 2nd paragraph.
                >
                http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
                >
                >
                > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
                > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
                > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
                > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
                > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
                >
                > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
                > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
                > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
                > paragraph.
                >
                > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
                > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
                >
                > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
                > corresponding quotes).
                >
                > TKTE - p. 40
                >
                >
                https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
                Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
                >
                > PTP p. 21
                >
                >
                http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
                th
                >
                > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
                > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
                > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
                > version.
                >
                > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
                > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
                > text.
                >
                >
                prometheus wrote:
                > Hello All,
                > Thanks for sharing and
                > bringing up this subject.
                > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
                > for them, feel rather aloof
                > and spiritually advanced
                > due to the "number" on
                > their EK membership cards.
                >
                > They are deluded enough
                > to think that this number
                > is an indication of Higher
                > Con because the liar Twitchell
                > said it was in order to
                > sell more memberships
                > and materials. Klemp
                > continues the lie!
                >
                > The biggest argument for
                > these deluded people are
                > the few stories told of Twit,
                > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
                > seen somewhere on the
                > streets, etc. or in a dream
                > before these newbies saw
                > their pictures and were
                > told that these were EK
                > "Masters."
                >
                > Klemp has even revamped
                > people's experiences of having
                > seen Jesus by having Ekists
                > show them pics of Gopal Das,
                > whereby, they suddenly realized
                > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
                > It was a mistake in identity
                > and was actually Gopal Das
                > whom they saw!
                >
                > The truth is most H.I.s have
                > little to no actual spiritual
                > experiences or dreams and
                > they grab at straws. The
                > amount of experiences are
                > no more than any other group
                > that focuses upon mental
                > techniques during meditation
                > or before going to sleep.
                >
                > As with all religions it is
                > a matter of faith and belief
                > and Klemp has even mentioned
                > that was this was the real
                > key to Eckankar.
                >
                > I remember once that Klemp
                > told 4th initiates to hang out
                > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
                > to share in their consciousness
                > and prepare for their 5th. One
                > person I knew quit hanging
                > out with her non-H.I. friends
                > and even looked down her nose
                > at lower initiates (like herself).
                >
                > Basically, as it is within any
                > hierarchy, the long timers
                > want to see the newbies go
                > through the same amount
                > of crap they had to go through.
                > It's jealously and envy.
                >
                > These H.I.s don't know anymore
                > about spiritual matters than
                > the next person because it's
                > all subjective.
                >
                > Basically, old outdated techniques
                > like focusing upon the Third-
                > Eye versus the Crown chakra
                > will never be changed even
                > though an older EK discourse
                > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
                >
                > Other than that it's all about
                > selling and supporting Klemp's
                > ego and the EK Organization
                > which is Klemp's inherited
                > vocation and spiritual con.
                >
                > Thus, the survival of the EK
                > Org. and support of Klemp's
                > second rate books will continue
                > to be the central focus of Eckankar
                >
                > Prometheus
                >


                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
                > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
                > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
                > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
                > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
                > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
                > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
                > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
                > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
                >
                > Lady wrote:
                >
                > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
                > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
                > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
                > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
                > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
                > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
                > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
                > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
                > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
                > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
                > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
                > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
                > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
                > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
                > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
                > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
                > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
                > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
                > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
                > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
                > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
                > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
                > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
                > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
                > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
                > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
                > the truth or will figure it out.

                Rowan.
              • Lady Rowan
                Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 22 11:04 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  

                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:

                   
                  Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
                  As far as my religious views...
                  well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
                  I don't believe in any religion.
                  In some ways I'm both theist
                  and deist, thus, I'm neither
                  agnostic or atheist. I do believe
                  that a deity or deities of some
                  sort exist or existed and they
                  began or seeded the universes.

                  And, (IMO) I believe that there
                  is some sort of "intervention."
                  This is merely one reason as
                  to why "spiritual/religious"
                  experiences i.e. miracles were
                  explained. People will naturally
                  imagine/create, via the mind,
                  all sorts of things. Religions
                  have simply used these events/
                  experiences to reenforce their
                  hold upon people. Still, IMO,
                  there are unexplainable mysterious
                  non-religious connections.
                  We can even call this a Soul
                  to Soul connection linked to
                  an overall network (Over-Soul
                  i.e. Spirit).

                  Thus, I do believe that there
                  is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
                  whereby, people can experience
                  and/or tap into this "divine"
                  (or not) mental-energy source.
                  IMO We are all "plugged" into
                  this network by various ways
                  and means and at various
                  levels (not planes).

                  There are many variables.
                  It could be that this "Source"
                  is a mental and DNA link
                  that expands as we open
                  up certain areas of the mind.
                  Thus, our potential is enabled
                  more and more as we naturally
                  use our curiosity to explore
                  and expand via technology
                  and new thought patterns.
                  It's obvious, to me, that
                  every individual is at their
                  own unique stage of evolution.

                  Group religions create a plateau
                  and will merely close off and
                  stunt potential growth/expansion
                  of awareness for individuals.
                  This is why all religions will
                  use and rely upon "belief" and
                  "faith" to reenforce their religious
                  foundation. Klemp has done
                  the same with Eckankar.

                  ********************************

                  When I was an EK leader I would
                  go out of my way to talk to people
                  individually, especially, after the
                  EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
                  would even encourage the cleric
                  and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
                  to the newbies whether EKists
                  or non-EKists instead of gathering
                  in groups with their friends.

                  I tried to give people what they
                  were seeking but via of the EK
                  teachings. Still, there's a lot of
                  subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
                  Guidelines and EK Dogma does
                  tend to limit what one is supposed
                  to share. And, it was difficult
                  and somewhat frustrating to
                  discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
                  with people who had not read
                  of or understood (been suckered
                  into) that special (pretend)
                  relationship with the Inner
                  Mahanta. This is where one
                  develops a codependent
                  relationship with an imaginary
                  being who is, actually, ones
                  own "inner" self.

                  Anyway, I did greet, listen to
                  and welcome-in those EKists
                  who didn't show up often at
                  EK events and those non-EKists
                  who were curious about Eckankar
                  and seeing what "ECKists" looked
                  like.

                  However, regardless of one's
                  sincerity and confidence of
                  belief, discussions of the "Divine"
                  are still very subjective, and
                  uniquely personal. Therefore
                  I'm sure that everyone on this
                  site (ESA) has a different and
                  unique view, as well as, unique
                  and private "spiritual" experiences
                  that have led us to where we
                  are now... wherever that is!
                  I'm sure that it's still in flux
                  as we continue to explore
                  within our own semi-established
                  beliefs.

                  Prometheus

                  "Lady" wrote:
                  Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
                  mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
                  group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
                  boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
                  introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
                  to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
                  just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
                  became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
                  but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
                  was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
                  that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
                  wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
                  live it.

                  etznab wrote:
                  >
                  > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
                  > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they
                  suddenly
                  > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
                  > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
                  >
                  > ***
                  >
                  > That's ironic. Here's why.
                  >
                  > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
                  > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
                  >
                  > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
                  > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
                  > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
                  > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
                  > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                  >
                  > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
                  > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
                  >
                  > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
                  > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the
                  whole ECK,' he was
                  > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
                  > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
                  > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                  >
                  >
                  > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
                  > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                  >
                  > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
                  > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
                  > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
                  > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
                  > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
                  > Divine Grace.'"
                  >
                  > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
                  > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The
                  Princes":
                  >
                  > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
                  > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
                  > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
                  > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
                  > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
                  > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
                  > Grace.'"
                  >
                  > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
                  >
                  > OK. You'll love this next one :)
                  >
                  > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                  > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                  > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors.
                  When Jesus,
                  > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
                  > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
                  > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
                  > splendors of Rome. [....]"
                  >
                  > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
                  > 432, 2nd paragraph.
                  >
                  http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
                  >
                  >
                  > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                  > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                  > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
                  > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
                  > walked the dusty
                  streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
                  > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
                  > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
                  >
                  > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
                  > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
                  > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
                  > paragraph.
                  >
                  > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
                  > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
                  >
                  > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
                  > corresponding quotes).
                  >
                  > TKTE - p. 40
                  >
                  >
                  https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
                  Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

                  >
                  > PTP p. 21
                  >
                  >
                  http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
                  th

                  >
                  > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
                  > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
                  > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
                  > version.
                  >
                  > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
                  > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
                  > text.
                  >
                  >
                  prometheus wrote:
                  > Hello All,
                  > Thanks for sharing and
                  > bringing up this subject.
                  > Many
                  H.I.s, unfortunately
                  > for them, feel rather aloof
                  > and spiritually advanced
                  > due to the "number" on
                  > their EK membership cards.
                  >
                  > They are deluded enough
                  > to think that this number
                  > is an indication of Higher
                  > Con because the liar Twitchell
                  > said it was in order to
                  > sell more memberships
                  > and materials. Klemp
                  > continues the lie!
                  >
                  > The biggest argument for
                  > these deluded people are
                  > the few stories told of Twit,
                  > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
                  > seen somewhere on the
                  > streets, etc. or in a dream
                  > before these newbies saw
                  > their pictures and were
                  > told that these were EK
                  > "Masters."
                  >
                  > Klemp has even revamped
                  > people's experiences of having
                  > seen Jesus by having Ekists
                  > show them pics of Gopal Das,
                  > whereby, they suddenly realized
                  > that it wasn't
                  Jesus after all.
                  > It was a mistake in identity
                  > and was actually Gopal Das
                  > whom they saw!
                  >
                  > The truth is most H.I.s have
                  > little to no actual spiritual
                  > experiences or dreams and
                  > they grab at straws. The
                  > amount of experiences are
                  > no more than any other group
                  > that focuses upon mental
                  > techniques during meditation
                  > or before going to sleep.
                  >
                  > As with all religions it is
                  > a matter of faith and belief
                  > and Klemp has even mentioned
                  > that was this was the real
                  > key to Eckankar.
                  >
                  > I remember once that Klemp
                  > told 4th initiates to hang out
                  > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
                  > to share in their consciousness
                  > and prepare for their 5th. One
                  > person I knew quit hanging
                  > out with her non-H.I. friends
                  > and even looked down her nose
                  > at lower initiates (like
                  herself).
                  >
                  > Basically, as it is within any
                  > hierarchy, the long timers
                  > want to see the newbies go
                  > through the same amount
                  > of crap they had to go through.
                  > It's jealously and envy.
                  >
                  > These H.I.s don't know anymore
                  > about spiritual matters than
                  > the next person because it's
                  > all subjective.
                  >
                  > Basically, old outdated techniques
                  > like focusing upon the Third-
                  > Eye versus the Crown chakra
                  > will never be changed even
                  > though an older EK discourse
                  > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
                  >
                  > Other than that it's all about
                  > selling and supporting Klemp's
                  > ego and the EK Organization
                  > which is Klemp's inherited
                  > vocation and spiritual con.
                  >
                  > Thus, the survival of the EK
                  > Org. and support of Klemp's
                  > second rate books will continue
                  > to be the central focus of
                  Eckankar
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >

                  > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                  > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
                  > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
                  > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
                  > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
                  > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
                  > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
                  > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
                  > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
                  > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
                  >
                  > Lady wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
                  > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
                  > some history
                  behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
                  > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
                  > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
                  > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
                  > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
                  > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
                  > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
                  > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
                  > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
                  > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
                  > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
                  > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
                  > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated
                  words of the
                  > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
                  > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
                  > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
                  > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
                  > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
                  > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
                  > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
                  > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
                  > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
                  > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
                  > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
                  > the truth or will figure it out.

                  Rowan.



                • Non
                  Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 2, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics, depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

                    For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive and change into a hunter or prey....

                    I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it. We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or just is what it is.

                    We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

                    Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the pretentious fake promises.

                    Non ; )

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind
                    > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
                    > As far as my religious views...
                    > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
                    > I don't believe in any religion.
                    > In some ways I'm both theist
                    > and deist, thus, I'm neither
                    > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
                    > that a deity or deities of some
                    > sort exist or existed and they
                    > began or seeded the universes.
                    >
                    > And, (IMO) I believe that there
                    > is some sort of "intervention."
                    > This is merely one reason as
                    > to why "spiritual/religious"
                    > experiences i.e. miracles were
                    > explained. People will naturally
                    > imagine/create, via the mind,
                    > all sorts of things. Religions
                    > have simply used these events/
                    > experiences to reenforce their
                    > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
                    > there are unexplainable mysterious
                    > non-religious connections.
                    > We can even call this a Soul
                    > to Soul connection linked to
                    > an overall network (Over-Soul
                    > i.e. Spirit).
                    >
                    > Thus, I do believe that there
                    > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
                    > whereby, people can experience
                    > and/or tap into this "divine"
                    > (or not) mental-energy source.
                    > IMO We are all "plugged" into
                    > this network by various ways
                    > and means and at various
                    > levels (not planes).
                    >
                    > There are many variables.
                    > It could be that this "Source"
                    > is a mental and DNA link
                    > that expands as we open
                    > up certain areas of the mind.
                    > Thus, our potential is enabled
                    > more and more as we naturally
                    > use our curiosity to explore
                    > and expand via technology
                    > and new thought patterns.
                    > It's obvious, to me, that
                    > every individual is at their
                    > own unique stage of evolution.
                    >
                    > Group religions create a plateau
                    > and will merely close off and
                    > stunt potential growth/expansion
                    > of awareness for individuals.
                    > This is why all religions will
                    > use and rely upon "belief" and
                    > "faith" to reenforce their religious
                    > foundation. Klemp has done
                    > the same with Eckankar.
                    >
                    > ********************************
                    >
                    > When I was an EK leader I would
                    > go out of my way to talk to people
                    > individually, especially, after the
                    > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
                    > would even encourage the cleric
                    > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
                    > to the newbies whether EKists
                    > or non-EKists instead of gathering
                    > in groups with their friends.
                    >
                    > I tried to give people what they
                    > were seeking but via of the EK
                    > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
                    > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
                    > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
                    > tend to limit what one is supposed
                    > to share. And, it was difficult
                    > and somewhat frustrating to
                    > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
                    > with people who had not read
                    > of or understood (been suckered
                    > into) that special (pretend)
                    > relationship with the Inner
                    > Mahanta. This is where one
                    > develops a codependent
                    > relationship with an imaginary
                    > being who is, actually, ones
                    > own "inner" self.
                    >
                    > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
                    > and welcome-in those EKists
                    > who didn't show up often at
                    > EK events and those non-EKists
                    > who were curious about Eckankar
                    > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
                    > like.
                    >
                    > However, regardless of one's
                    > sincerity and confidence of
                    > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
                    > are still very subjective, and
                    > uniquely personal. Therefore
                    > I'm sure that everyone on this
                    > site (ESA) has a different and
                    > unique view, as well as, unique
                    > and private "spiritual" experiences
                    > that have led us to where we
                    > are now... wherever that is!
                    > I'm sure that it's still in flux
                    > as we continue to explore
                    > within our own semi-established
                    > beliefs.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > "Lady" wrote:
                    > Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
                    > mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
                    > group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
                    > boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
                    > introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
                    > to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
                    > just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
                    > became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
                    > but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
                    > was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
                    > that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
                    > wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
                    > live it.
                    >
                    > etznab wrote:
                    > >
                    > > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
                    > > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
                    > > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
                    > > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
                    > >
                    > > ***
                    > >
                    > > That's ironic. Here's why.
                    > >
                    > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
                    > > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
                    > >
                    > > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
                    > > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
                    > > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
                    > > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
                    > > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                    > >
                    > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
                    > > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
                    > >
                    > > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
                    > > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
                    > > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
                    > > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
                    > > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
                    > > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                    > >
                    > > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
                    > > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
                    > > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
                    > > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
                    > > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
                    > > Divine Grace.'"
                    > >
                    > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
                    > > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                    > >
                    > > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
                    > > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
                    > > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
                    > > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
                    > > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
                    > > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
                    > > Grace.'"
                    > >
                    > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
                    > >
                    > > OK. You'll love this next one :)
                    > >
                    > > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                    > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                    > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
                    > > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
                    > > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
                    > > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
                    > > splendors of Rome. [....]"
                    > >
                    > > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
                    > > 432, 2nd paragraph.
                    > >
                    > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                    > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                    > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
                    > > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
                    > > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
                    > > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
                    > > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
                    > >
                    > > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
                    > > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
                    > > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
                    > > paragraph.
                    > >
                    > > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
                    > > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
                    > >
                    > > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
                    > > corresponding quotes).
                    > >
                    > > TKTE - p. 40
                    > >
                    > >
                    > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
                    > Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
                    > >
                    > > PTP p. 21
                    > >
                    > >
                    > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
                    > th
                    > >
                    > > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
                    > > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
                    > > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
                    > > version.
                    > >
                    > > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
                    > > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
                    > > text.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    > > Hello All,
                    > > Thanks for sharing and
                    > > bringing up this subject.
                    > > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
                    > > for them, feel rather aloof
                    > > and spiritually advanced
                    > > due to the "number" on
                    > > their EK membership cards.
                    > >
                    > > They are deluded enough
                    > > to think that this number
                    > > is an indication of Higher
                    > > Con because the liar Twitchell
                    > > said it was in order to
                    > > sell more memberships
                    > > and materials. Klemp
                    > > continues the lie!
                    > >
                    > > The biggest argument for
                    > > these deluded people are
                    > > the few stories told of Twit,
                    > > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
                    > > seen somewhere on the
                    > > streets, etc. or in a dream
                    > > before these newbies saw
                    > > their pictures and were
                    > > told that these were EK
                    > > "Masters."
                    > >
                    > > Klemp has even revamped
                    > > people's experiences of having
                    > > seen Jesus by having Ekists
                    > > show them pics of Gopal Das,
                    > > whereby, they suddenly realized
                    > > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
                    > > It was a mistake in identity
                    > > and was actually Gopal Das
                    > > whom they saw!
                    > >
                    > > The truth is most H.I.s have
                    > > little to no actual spiritual
                    > > experiences or dreams and
                    > > they grab at straws. The
                    > > amount of experiences are
                    > > no more than any other group
                    > > that focuses upon mental
                    > > techniques during meditation
                    > > or before going to sleep.
                    > >
                    > > As with all religions it is
                    > > a matter of faith and belief
                    > > and Klemp has even mentioned
                    > > that was this was the real
                    > > key to Eckankar.
                    > >
                    > > I remember once that Klemp
                    > > told 4th initiates to hang out
                    > > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
                    > > to share in their consciousness
                    > > and prepare for their 5th. One
                    > > person I knew quit hanging
                    > > out with her non-H.I. friends
                    > > and even looked down her nose
                    > > at lower initiates (like herself).
                    > >
                    > > Basically, as it is within any
                    > > hierarchy, the long timers
                    > > want to see the newbies go
                    > > through the same amount
                    > > of crap they had to go through.
                    > > It's jealously and envy.
                    > >
                    > > These H.I.s don't know anymore
                    > > about spiritual matters than
                    > > the next person because it's
                    > > all subjective.
                    > >
                    > > Basically, old outdated techniques
                    > > like focusing upon the Third-
                    > > Eye versus the Crown chakra
                    > > will never be changed even
                    > > though an older EK discourse
                    > > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
                    > >
                    > > Other than that it's all about
                    > > selling and supporting Klemp's
                    > > ego and the EK Organization
                    > > which is Klemp's inherited
                    > > vocation and spiritual con.
                    > >
                    > > Thus, the survival of the EK
                    > > Org. and support of Klemp's
                    > > second rate books will continue
                    > > to be the central focus of Eckankar
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                    >
                    > > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
                    > > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
                    > > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
                    > > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
                    > > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
                    > > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
                    > > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
                    > > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
                    > > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
                    > >
                    > > Lady wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
                    > > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
                    > > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
                    > > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
                    > > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
                    > > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
                    > > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
                    > > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
                    > > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
                    > > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
                    > > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
                    > > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
                    > > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
                    > > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
                    > > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
                    > > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
                    > > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
                    > > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
                    > > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
                    > > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
                    > > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
                    > > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
                    > > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
                    > > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
                    > > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
                    > > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
                    > > the truth or will figure it out.
                    >
                    > Rowan.
                    >
                  • Lady Rowan
                    Yup, I agree with you about Ramtha...she creeps me out, even in the movie...but I m talking about the science of quantum physics, M theory, and string theory,
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 5, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yup, I agree with you about Ramtha...she creeps me out, even in the movie...but I'm talking about the science of quantum physics, M theory, and string theory, which have nothing to do with JZ Knight's 'religion' and to me, very disturbing teaching if you see all of it.  I just find it very interesting.  Thanks for sharing.  R

                      From: Non <eckchains@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 2:15 AM
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:

                       
                      Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics, depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

                      For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive and change into a hunter or prey....

                      I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it. We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or just is what it is.

                      We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

                      Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the pretentious fake promises.

                      Non ; )

                      --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind
                      > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      > To: mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
                      > As far as my religious views...
                      > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
                      > I don't believe in any religion.
                      > In some ways I'm both theist
                      > and deist, thus, I'm neither
                      > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
                      > that a deity or deities of some
                      > sort exist or existed and they
                      > began or seeded the universes.
                      >
                      > And, (IMO) I believe that there
                      > is some sort of "intervention."
                      > This is merely one reason as
                      > to why "spiritual/religious"
                      > experiences i.e. miracles were
                      > explained. People will naturally
                      > imagine/create, via the mind,
                      > all sorts of things. Religions
                      > have simply used these events/
                      > experiences to reenforce their
                      > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
                      > there are unexplainable mysterious
                      > non-religious connections.
                      > We can even call this a Soul
                      > to Soul connection linked to
                      > an overall network (Over-Soul
                      > i.e. Spirit).
                      >
                      > Thus, I do believe that there
                      > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
                      > whereby, people can experience
                      > and/or tap into this "divine"
                      > (or not) mental-energy source.
                      > IMO We are all "plugged" into
                      > this network by various ways
                      > and means and at various
                      > levels (not planes).
                      >
                      > There are many variables.
                      > It could be that this "Source"
                      > is a mental and DNA link
                      > that expands as we open
                      > up certain areas of the mind.
                      > Thus, our potential is enabled
                      > more and more as we naturally
                      > use our curiosity to explore
                      > and expand via technology
                      > and new thought patterns.
                      > It's obvious, to me, that
                      > every individual is at their
                      > own unique stage of evolution.
                      >
                      > Group religions create a plateau
                      > and will merely close off and
                      > stunt potential growth/expansion
                      > of awareness for individuals.
                      > This is why all religions will
                      > use and rely upon "belief" and
                      > "faith" to reenforce their religious
                      > foundation. Klemp has done
                      > the same with Eckankar.
                      >
                      > ********************************
                      >
                      > When I was an EK leader I would
                      > go out of my way to talk to people
                      > individually, especially, after the
                      > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
                      > would even encourage the cleric
                      > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
                      > to the newbies whether EKists
                      > or non-EKists instead of gathering
                      > in groups with their friends.
                      >
                      > I tried to give people what they
                      > were seeking but via of the EK
                      > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
                      > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
                      > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
                      > tend to limit what one is supposed
                      > to share. And, it was difficult
                      > and somewhat frustrating to
                      > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
                      > with people who had not read
                      > of or understood (been suckered
                      > into) that special (pretend)
                      > relationship with the Inner
                      > Mahanta. This is where one
                      > develops a codependent
                      > relationship with an imaginary
                      > being who is, actually, ones
                      > own "inner" self.
                      >
                      > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
                      > and welcome-in those EKists
                      > who didn't show up often at
                      > EK events and those non-EKists
                      > who were curious about Eckankar
                      > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
                      > like.
                      >
                      > However, regardless of one's
                      > sincerity and confidence of
                      > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
                      > are still very subjective, and
                      > uniquely personal. Therefore
                      > I'm sure that everyone on this
                      > site (ESA) has a different and
                      > unique view, as well as, unique
                      > and private "spiritual" experiences
                      > that have led us to where we
                      > are now... wherever that is!
                      > I'm sure that it's still in flux
                      > as we continue to explore
                      > within our own semi-established
                      > beliefs.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > "Lady" wrote:
                      > Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
                      > mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
                      > group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
                      > boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
                      > introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
                      > to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
                      > just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
                      > became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
                      > but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
                      > was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
                      > that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
                      > wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
                      > live it.
                      >
                      > etznab wrote:
                      > >
                      > > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
                      > > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
                      > > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
                      > > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
                      > >
                      > > ***
                      > >
                      > > That's ironic. Here's why.
                      > >
                      > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
                      > > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
                      > >
                      > > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
                      > > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
                      > > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
                      > > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
                      > > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                      > >
                      > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
                      > > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
                      > >
                      > > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
                      > > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
                      > > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
                      > > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
                      > > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
                      > > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                      > >
                      > > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
                      > > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
                      > > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
                      > > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
                      > > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
                      > > Divine Grace.'"
                      > >
                      > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
                      > > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                      > >
                      > > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
                      > > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
                      > > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
                      > > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
                      > > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
                      > > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
                      > > Grace.'"
                      > >
                      > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
                      > >
                      > > OK. You'll love this next one :)
                      > >
                      > > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                      > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                      > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
                      > > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
                      > > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
                      > > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
                      > > splendors of Rome. [....]"
                      > >
                      > > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
                      > > 432, 2nd paragraph.
                      > >
                      > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                      > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                      > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
                      > > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
                      > > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
                      > > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
                      > > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
                      > >
                      > > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
                      > > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
                      > > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
                      > > paragraph.
                      > >
                      > > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
                      > > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
                      > >
                      > > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
                      > > corresponding quotes).
                      > >
                      > > TKTE - p. 40
                      > >
                      > >
                      > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
                      > Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
                      > >
                      > > PTP p. 21
                      > >
                      > >
                      > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
                      > th
                      > >
                      > > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
                      > > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
                      > > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
                      > > version.
                      > >
                      > > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
                      > > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
                      > > text.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      > > Hello All,
                      > > Thanks for sharing and
                      > > bringing up this subject.
                      > > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
                      > > for them, feel rather aloof
                      > > and spiritually advanced
                      > > due to the "number" on
                      > > their EK membership cards.
                      > >
                      > > They are deluded enough
                      > > to think that this number
                      > > is an indication of Higher
                      > > Con because the liar Twitchell
                      > > said it was in order to
                      > > sell more memberships
                      > > and materials. Klemp
                      > > continues the lie!
                      > >
                      > > The biggest argument for
                      > > these deluded people are
                      > > the few stories told of Twit,
                      > > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
                      > > seen somewhere on the
                      > > streets, etc. or in a dream
                      > > before these newbies saw
                      > > their pictures and were
                      > > told that these were EK
                      > > "Masters."
                      > >
                      > > Klemp has even revamped
                      > > people's experiences of having
                      > > seen Jesus by having Ekists
                      > > show them pics of Gopal Das,
                      > > whereby, they suddenly realized
                      > > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
                      > > It was a mistake in identity
                      > > and was actually Gopal Das
                      > > whom they saw!
                      > >
                      > > The truth is most H.I.s have
                      > > little to no actual spiritual
                      > > experiences or dreams and
                      > > they grab at straws. The
                      > > amount of experiences are
                      > > no more than any other group
                      > > that focuses upon mental
                      > > techniques during meditation
                      > > or before going to sleep.
                      > >
                      > > As with all religions it is
                      > > a matter of faith and belief
                      > > and Klemp has even mentioned
                      > > that was this was the real
                      > > key to Eckankar.
                      > >
                      > > I remember once that Klemp
                      > > told 4th initiates to hang out
                      > > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
                      > > to share in their consciousness
                      > > and prepare for their 5th. One
                      > > person I knew quit hanging
                      > > out with her non-H.I. friends
                      > > and even looked down her nose
                      > > at lower initiates (like herself).
                      > >
                      > > Basically, as it is within any
                      > > hierarchy, the long timers
                      > > want to see the newbies go
                      > > through the same amount
                      > > of crap they had to go through.
                      > > It's jealously and envy.
                      > >
                      > > These H.I.s don't know anymore
                      > > about spiritual matters than
                      > > the next person because it's
                      > > all subjective.
                      > >
                      > > Basically, old outdated techniques
                      > > like focusing upon the Third-
                      > > Eye versus the Crown chakra
                      > > will never be changed even
                      > > though an older EK discourse
                      > > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
                      > >
                      > > Other than that it's all about
                      > > selling and supporting Klemp's
                      > > ego and the EK Organization
                      > > which is Klemp's inherited
                      > > vocation and spiritual con.
                      > >
                      > > Thus, the survival of the EK
                      > > Org. and support of Klemp's
                      > > second rate books will continue
                      > > to be the central focus of Eckankar
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      >
                      > > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
                      > > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
                      > > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
                      > > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
                      > > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
                      > > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
                      > > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
                      > > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
                      > > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
                      > >
                      > > Lady wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
                      > > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
                      > > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
                      > > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
                      > > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
                      > > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
                      > > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
                      > > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
                      > > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
                      > > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
                      > > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
                      > > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
                      > > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
                      > > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
                      > > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
                      > > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
                      > > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
                      > > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
                      > > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
                      > > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
                      > > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
                      > > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
                      > > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
                      > > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
                      > > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
                      > > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
                      > > the truth or will figure it out.
                      >
                      > Rowan.
                      >



                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Non eckchains, I ll have to admit that I didn t like What the Bleep. I know it had a big Canadian following like Adam Dreamhealer who, btw, also used
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 11, 2012
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                        Hello Non eckchains,
                        I'll have to admit that
                        I didn't like "What the Bleep."
                        I know it had a big Canadian
                        following like Adam Dreamhealer
                        who, btw, also used the
                        Quantum whatever speak.
                        Dreamhealer is a young
                        con artist whose father, mother,
                        and sister were all part of
                        the con. Adam had a ghost
                        writer co-author and do his
                        first book. Have you ever heard
                        the New Age term "organic"
                        being used to describe all
                        sorts of things. It's like with
                        "quantum." All of these people
                        are looking for a following
                        and to use the right "hook"
                        depending upon their audience
                        of perspective suckers... like
                        with Eckankar.

                        Prometheus


                        "Non" eckchains wrote:
                        Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with
                        Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very
                        Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum
                        physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call
                        Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the
                        micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics,
                        depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking
                        across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

                        For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social
                        animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are
                        there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of
                        exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a
                        gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy
                        animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive
                        and change into a hunter or prey....

                        I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed
                        real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it.
                        We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or
                        just is what it is.

                        We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of
                        overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we
                        have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

                        Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another
                        dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality
                        and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too
                        carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes
                        so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or
                        later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last
                        legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the
                        pretentious fake promises.

                        Non ; )

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I
                        thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any
                        kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion
                        or following. About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What
                        The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it
                        fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically
                        the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people
                        like me), but again always hungered for more. Another fav is Brian Greene's
                        The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string
                        theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for
                        this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but IÂ got
                        the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and
                        still have a hard time wrapping my mind
                        > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most
                        High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate
                        any of it, as it is so rich. But I do like the fact that science has
                        acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to
                        me) way.  It's awesome. Rowan Â
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting
                        Comments on this site:
                        >
                        >
                        > Â
                        > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
                        > As far as my religious views...
                        > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
                        > I don't believe in any religion.
                        > In some ways I'm both theist
                        > and deist, thus, I'm neither
                        > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
                        > that a deity or deities of some
                        > sort exist or existed and they
                        > began or seeded the universes.
                        >
                        > And, (IMO) I believe that there
                        > is some sort of "intervention."
                        > This is merely one reason as
                        > to why "spiritual/religious"
                        > experiences i.e. miracles were
                        > explained. People will naturally
                        > imagine/create, via the mind,
                        > all sorts of things. Religions
                        > have simply used these events/
                        > experiences to reenforce their
                        > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
                        > there are unexplainable mysterious
                        > non-religious connections.
                        > We can even call this a Soul
                        > to Soul connection linked to
                        > an overall network (Over-Soul
                        > i.e. Spirit).
                        >
                        > Thus, I do believe that there
                        > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
                        > whereby, people can experience
                        > and/or tap into this "divine"
                        > (or not) mental-energy source.
                        > IMO We are all "plugged" into
                        > this network by various ways
                        > and means and at various
                        > levels (not planes).
                        >
                        > There are many variables.
                        > It could be that this "Source"
                        > is a mental and DNA link
                        > that expands as we open
                        > up certain areas of the mind.
                        > Thus, our potential is enabled
                        > more and more as we naturally
                        > use our curiosity to explore
                        > and expand via technology
                        > and new thought patterns.
                        > It's obvious, to me, that
                        > every individual is at their
                        > own unique stage of evolution.
                        >
                        > Group religions create a plateau
                        > and will merely close off and
                        > stunt potential growth/expansion
                        > of awareness for individuals.
                        > This is why all religions will
                        > use and rely upon "belief" and
                        > "faith" to reenforce their religious
                        > foundation. Klemp has done
                        > the same with Eckankar.
                        >
                        > ********************************
                        >
                        > When I was an EK leader I would
                        > go out of my way to talk to people
                        > individually, especially, after the
                        > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
                        > would even encourage the cleric
                        > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
                        > to the newbies whether EKists
                        > or non-EKists instead of gathering
                        > in groups with their friends.
                        >
                        > I tried to give people what they
                        > were seeking but via of the EK
                        > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
                        > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
                        > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
                        > tend to limit what one is supposed
                        > to share. And, it was difficult
                        > and somewhat frustrating to
                        > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
                        > with people who had not read
                        > of or understood (been suckered
                        > into) that special (pretend)
                        > relationship with the Inner
                        > Mahanta. This is where one
                        > develops a codependent
                        > relationship with an imaginary
                        > being who is, actually, ones
                        > own "inner" self.
                        >
                        > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
                        > and welcome-in those EKists
                        > who didn't show up often at
                        > EK events and those non-EKists
                        > who were curious about Eckankar
                        > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
                        > like.
                        >
                        > However, regardless of one's
                        > sincerity and confidence of
                        > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
                        > are still very subjective, and
                        > uniquely personal. Therefore
                        > I'm sure that everyone on this
                        > site (ESA) has a different and
                        > unique view, as well as, unique
                        > and private "spiritual" experiences
                        > that have led us to where we
                        > are now... wherever that is!
                        > I'm sure that it's still in flux
                        > as we continue to explore
                        > within our own semi-established
                        > beliefs.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
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