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  • prometheus_973
    Please POST (no emails please) Why you want to join this site (ESA) and whether you have: any connections to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have a story
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 16, 2012
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      Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
      you want to join this site (ESA) and
      whether you have: any connections
      to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
      a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
      & insights involving Harold Klemp
      and/or Eckankar.

      Thanks,
      Prometheus
    • Lady
      Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is because I was curious. I was actually googling the Hu looking for some history behind it
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 19, 2012
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        Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up. I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!! But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy, and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite enough, there was no real substance, just regurgitated words of the same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
        > you want to join this site (ESA) and
        > whether you have: any connections
        > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
        > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
        > & insights involving Harold Klemp
        > and/or Eckankar.
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Prometheus
        >
      • Janice Pfeiffer
        Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in.  You did it so well.  Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates shy away from
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 19, 2012
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          Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in.  You did it so well.  Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also like you say show they don't know a lot anyway.  When I was very new and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so.  It was kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences they had not had.  Thanks again for your posting.

          --- On Wed, 9/19/12, Lady <ladyrowan07@...> wrote:

          From: Lady <ladyrowan07@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 2:37 PM

           
          Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up. I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!! But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy, and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite enough, there was no real substance, just regurgitated words of the same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
          > you want to join this site (ESA) and
          > whether you have: any connections
          > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
          > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
          > & insights involving Harold Klemp
          > and/or Eckankar.
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Prometheus
          >

        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, Thanks for sharing and bringing up this subject. Many H.I.s, unfortunately for them, feel rather aloof and spiritually advanced due to the number
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 19, 2012
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            Hello All,
            Thanks for sharing and
            bringing up this subject.
            Many H.I.s, unfortunately
            for them, feel rather aloof
            and spiritually advanced
            due to the "number" on
            their EK membership cards.

            They are deluded enough
            to think that this number
            is an indication of Higher
            Con because the liar Twitchell
            said it was in order to
            sell more memberships
            and materials. Klemp
            continues the lie!

            The biggest argument for
            these deluded people are
            the few stories told of Twit,
            Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
            seen somewhere on the
            streets, etc. or in a dream
            before these newbies saw
            their pictures and were
            told that these were EK
            "Masters."

            Klemp has even revamped
            people's experiences of having
            seen Jesus by having Ekists
            show them pics of Gopal Das,
            whereby, they suddenly realized
            that it wasn't Jesus after all.
            It was a mistake in identity
            and was actually Gopal Das
            whom they saw!

            The truth is most H.I.s have
            little to no actual spiritual
            experiences or dreams and
            they grab at straws. The
            amount of experiences are
            no more than any other group
            that focuses upon mental
            techniques during meditation
            or before going to sleep.

            As with all religions it is
            a matter of faith and belief
            and Klemp has even mentioned
            that was this was the real
            key to Eckankar.

            I remember once that Klemp
            told 4th initiates to hang out
            with 5ths and 6ths as a way
            to share in their consciousness
            and prepare for their 5th. One
            person I knew quit hanging
            out with her non-H.I. friends
            and even looked down her nose
            at lower initiates (like herself).

            Basically, as it is within any
            hierarchy, the long timers
            want to see the newbies go
            through the same amount
            of crap they had to go through.
            It's jealously and envy.

            These H.I.s don't know anymore
            about spiritual matters than
            the next person because it's
            all subjective.

            Basically, old outdated techniques
            like focusing upon the Third-
            Eye versus the Crown chakra
            will never be changed even
            though an older EK discourse
            uses the Crown Chakra technique.

            Other than that it's all about
            selling and supporting Klemp's
            ego and the EK Organization
            which is Klemp's inherited
            vocation and spiritual con.

            Thus, the survival of the EK
            Org. and support of Klemp's
            second rate books will continue
            to be the central focus of Eckankar

            Prometheus




            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.

            Lady wrote:

            Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up. I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!! But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy, and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite enough, there was no real substance, just regurgitated words of the same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
            > you want to join this site (ESA) and
            > whether you have: any connections
            > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
            > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
            > & insights involving Harold Klemp
            > and/or Eckankar.
            >
            > Thanks,
            > Prometheus
          • etznab@aol.com
            Klemp has even revamped people s experiences of having seen Jesus by having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly realized that it wasn t
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 19, 2012
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              "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
              having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
              realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
              and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"

              ***

              That's ironic. Here's why.

               The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
              Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:

              "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
              more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
              were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
              To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
              exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."

                 The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
              Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:

              "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
              `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
              saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
              grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
              for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."


              The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
              Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":

              Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
              live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
              way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
              Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
              by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
              Divine Grace.'"

               The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
              Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":

              Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
              have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
              said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
              Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
              Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
              conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
              Grace.'"

              http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html

              OK. You'll love this next one :)

              "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
              spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
              when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
              who might have commanded any army — so great was his mental energy —
              walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
              the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
              splendors of Rome. [....]"

              Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
              432, 2nd paragraph.

              http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt


              "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
              spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
              when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
              Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
              walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
              that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
              greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"

              Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
              Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
              copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
              paragraph.

              Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
              Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.

              Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
              corresponding quotes).

              TKTE - p. 40

              https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

              PTP p. 21

              http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith

              Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
              Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
              the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
              version.

              Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
              the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
              text.






              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wed, Sep 19, 2012 6:49 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or
              Posting Comments on this site:

               
              Hello All,
              Thanks for sharing and
              bringing up this subject.
              Many H.I.s, unfortunately
              for them, feel rather aloof
              and spiritually advanced
              due to the "number" on
              their EK membership cards.

              They are deluded enough
              to think that this number
              is an indication of Higher
              Con because the liar Twitchell
              said it was in order to
              sell more memberships
              and materials. Klemp
              continues the lie!

              The biggest argument for
              these deluded people are
              the few stories told of Twit,
              Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
              seen somewhere on the
              streets, etc. or in a dream
              before these newbies saw
              their pictures and were
              told that these were EK
              "Masters."

              Klemp has even revamped
              people's experiences of having
              seen Jesus by having Ekists
              show them pics of Gopal Das,
              whereby, they suddenly realized
              that it wasn't Jesus after all.
              It was a mistake in identity
              and was actually Gopal Das
              whom they saw!

              The truth is most H.I.s have
              little to no actual spiritual
              experiences or dreams and
              they grab at straws. The
              amount of experiences are
              no more than any other group
              that focuses upon mental
              techniques during meditation
              or before going to sleep.

              As with all religions it is
              a matter of faith and belief
              and Klemp has even mentioned
              that was this was the real
              key to Eckankar.

              I remember once that Klemp
              told 4th initiates to hang out
              with 5ths and 6ths as a way
              to share in their consciousness
              and prepare for their 5th. One
              person I knew quit hanging
              out with her non-H.I. friends
              and even looked down her nose
              at lower initiates (like herself).

              Basically, as it is within any
              hierarchy, the long timers
              want to see the newbies go
              through the same amount
              of crap they had to go through.
              It's jealously and envy.

              These H.I.s don't know anymore
              about spiritual matters than
              the next person because it's
              all subjective.

              Basically, old outdated techniques
              like focusing upon the Third-
              Eye versus the Crown chakra
              will never be changed even
              though an older EK discourse
              uses the Crown Chakra technique.

              Other than that it's all about
              selling and supporting Klemp's
              ego and the EK Organization
              which is Klemp's inherited
              vocation and spiritual con.

              Thus, the survival of the EK
              Org. and support of Klemp's
              second rate books will continue
              to be the central focus of Eckankar

              Prometheus

              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
              it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
              shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
              they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
              like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
              and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
              jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
              kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
              they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.

              Lady wrote:

              Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
              because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
              some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
              I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
              clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
              people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
              having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
              somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
              ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
              eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
              than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
              time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
              But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
              and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
              enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
              same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
              wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
              how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
              thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
              me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
              episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
              doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
              best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
              for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
              pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
              the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
              the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.

              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
              > you want to join this site (ESA) and
              > whether you have: any connections
              > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
              > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
              > & insights involving Harold Klemp
              > and/or Eckankar.
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Prometheus
            • Lady
              Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 19, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative, but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to live it.

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, etznab@... wrote:
                >
                > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
                > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
                > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
                > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
                >
                > ***
                >
                > That's ironic. Here's why.
                >
                >  The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
                > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
                >
                > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
                > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
                > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
                > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
                > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                >
                >    The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
                > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
                >
                > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
                > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
                > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
                > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
                > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                >
                >
                > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
                > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                >
                > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
                > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
                > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
                > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
                > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
                > Divine Grace.'"
                >
                >  The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
                > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                >
                > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
                > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
                > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
                > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
                > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
                > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
                > Grace.'"
                >
                > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
                >
                > OK. You'll love this next one :)
                >
                > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
                > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
                > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
                > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
                > splendors of Rome. [....]"
                >
                > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
                > 432, 2nd paragraph.
                >
                > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
                >
                >
                > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
                > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
                > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
                > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
                > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
                >
                > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
                > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
                > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
                > paragraph.
                >
                > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
                > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
                >
                > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
                > corresponding quotes).
                >
                > TKTE - p. 40
                >
                > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
                >
                > PTP p. 21
                >
                > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmith
                >
                > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
                > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
                > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
                > version.
                >
                > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
                > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
                > text.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wed, Sep 19, 2012 6:49 pm
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or
                > Posting Comments on this site:
                >
                >  
                > Hello All,
                > Thanks for sharing and
                > bringing up this subject.
                > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
                > for them, feel rather aloof
                > and spiritually advanced
                > due to the "number" on
                > their EK membership cards.
                >
                > They are deluded enough
                > to think that this number
                > is an indication of Higher
                > Con because the liar Twitchell
                > said it was in order to
                > sell more memberships
                > and materials. Klemp
                > continues the lie!
                >
                > The biggest argument for
                > these deluded people are
                > the few stories told of Twit,
                > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
                > seen somewhere on the
                > streets, etc. or in a dream
                > before these newbies saw
                > their pictures and were
                > told that these were EK
                > "Masters."
                >
                > Klemp has even revamped
                > people's experiences of having
                > seen Jesus by having Ekists
                > show them pics of Gopal Das,
                > whereby, they suddenly realized
                > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
                > It was a mistake in identity
                > and was actually Gopal Das
                > whom they saw!
                >
                > The truth is most H.I.s have
                > little to no actual spiritual
                > experiences or dreams and
                > they grab at straws. The
                > amount of experiences are
                > no more than any other group
                > that focuses upon mental
                > techniques during meditation
                > or before going to sleep.
                >
                > As with all religions it is
                > a matter of faith and belief
                > and Klemp has even mentioned
                > that was this was the real
                > key to Eckankar.
                >
                > I remember once that Klemp
                > told 4th initiates to hang out
                > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
                > to share in their consciousness
                > and prepare for their 5th. One
                > person I knew quit hanging
                > out with her non-H.I. friends
                > and even looked down her nose
                > at lower initiates (like herself).
                >
                > Basically, as it is within any
                > hierarchy, the long timers
                > want to see the newbies go
                > through the same amount
                > of crap they had to go through.
                > It's jealously and envy.
                >
                > These H.I.s don't know anymore
                > about spiritual matters than
                > the next person because it's
                > all subjective.
                >
                > Basically, old outdated techniques
                > like focusing upon the Third-
                > Eye versus the Crown chakra
                > will never be changed even
                > though an older EK discourse
                > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
                >
                > Other than that it's all about
                > selling and supporting Klemp's
                > ego and the EK Organization
                > which is Klemp's inherited
                > vocation and spiritual con.
                >
                > Thus, the survival of the EK
                > Org. and support of Klemp's
                > second rate books will continue
                > to be the central focus of Eckankar
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
                > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
                > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
                > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
                > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
                > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
                > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
                > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
                > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
                >
                > Lady wrote:
                >
                > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
                > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
                > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
                > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
                > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
                > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
                > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
                > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
                > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
                > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
                > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
                > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
                > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
                > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
                > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
                > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
                > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
                > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
                > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
                > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
                > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
                > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
                > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
                > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
                > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
                > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
                > the truth or will figure it out. Rowan.
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > > Please POST (no emails please) "Why"
                > > you want to join this site (ESA) and
                > > whether you have: any connections
                > > to Eckankar; know any ECKists; have
                > > a story involving Eckankar; have opinions
                > > & insights involving Harold Klemp
                > > and/or Eckankar.
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > > Prometheus
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All, As far as my religious views... well, I can t even say I m a pagan. I don t believe in any religion. In some ways I m both
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 21, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
                  As far as my religious views...
                  well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
                  I don't believe in any religion.
                  In some ways I'm both theist
                  and deist, thus, I'm neither
                  agnostic or atheist. I do believe
                  that a deity or deities of some
                  sort exist or existed and they
                  began or seeded the universes.

                  And, (IMO) I believe that there
                  is some sort of "intervention."
                  This is merely one reason as
                  to why "spiritual/religious"
                  experiences i.e. miracles were
                  explained. People will naturally
                  imagine/create, via the mind,
                  all sorts of things. Religions
                  have simply used these events/
                  experiences to reenforce their
                  hold upon people. Still, IMO,
                  there are unexplainable mysterious
                  non-religious connections.
                  We can even call this a Soul
                  to Soul connection linked to
                  an overall network (Over-Soul
                  i.e. Spirit).

                  Thus, I do believe that there
                  is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
                  whereby, people can experience
                  and/or tap into this "divine"
                  (or not) mental-energy source.
                  IMO We are all "plugged" into
                  this network by various ways
                  and means and at various
                  levels (not planes).

                  There are many variables.
                  It could be that this "Source"
                  is a mental and DNA link
                  that expands as we open
                  up certain areas of the mind.
                  Thus, our potential is enabled
                  more and more as we naturally
                  use our curiosity to explore
                  and expand via technology
                  and new thought patterns.
                  It's obvious, to me, that
                  every individual is at their
                  own unique stage of evolution.

                  Group religions create a plateau
                  and will merely close off and
                  stunt potential growth/expansion
                  of awareness for individuals.
                  This is why all religions will
                  use and rely upon "belief" and
                  "faith" to reenforce their religious
                  foundation. Klemp has done
                  the same with Eckankar.

                  ********************************

                  When I was an EK leader I would
                  go out of my way to talk to people
                  individually, especially, after the
                  EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
                  would even encourage the cleric
                  and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
                  to the newbies whether EKists
                  or non-EKists instead of gathering
                  in groups with their friends.

                  I tried to give people what they
                  were seeking but via of the EK
                  teachings. Still, there's a lot of
                  subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
                  Guidelines and EK Dogma does
                  tend to limit what one is supposed
                  to share. And, it was difficult
                  and somewhat frustrating to
                  discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
                  with people who had not read
                  of or understood (been suckered
                  into) that special (pretend)
                  relationship with the Inner
                  Mahanta. This is where one
                  develops a codependent
                  relationship with an imaginary
                  being who is, actually, ones
                  own "inner" self.

                  Anyway, I did greet, listen to
                  and welcome-in those EKists
                  who didn't show up often at
                  EK events and those non-EKists
                  who were curious about Eckankar
                  and seeing what "ECKists" looked
                  like.

                  However, regardless of one's
                  sincerity and confidence of
                  belief, discussions of the "Divine"
                  are still very subjective, and
                  uniquely personal. Therefore
                  I'm sure that everyone on this
                  site (ESA) has a different and
                  unique view, as well as, unique
                  and private "spiritual" experiences
                  that have led us to where we
                  are now... wherever that is!
                  I'm sure that it's still in flux
                  as we continue to explore
                  within our own semi-established
                  beliefs.

                  Prometheus



                  "Lady" wrote:
                  Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
                  mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
                  group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
                  boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
                  introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
                  to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
                  just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
                  became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
                  but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
                  was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
                  that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
                  wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
                  live it.

                  etznab wrote:
                  >
                  > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
                  > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
                  > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
                  > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
                  >
                  > ***
                  >
                  > That's ironic. Here's why.
                  >
                  > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
                  > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
                  >
                  > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
                  > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
                  > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
                  > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
                  > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                  >
                  > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
                  > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
                  >
                  > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
                  > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
                  > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
                  > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
                  > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                  >
                  >
                  > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
                  > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                  >
                  > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
                  > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
                  > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
                  > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
                  > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
                  > Divine Grace.'"
                  >
                  > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
                  > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                  >
                  > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
                  > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
                  > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
                  > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
                  > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
                  > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
                  > Grace.'"
                  >
                  > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
                  >
                  > OK. You'll love this next one :)
                  >
                  > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                  > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                  > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
                  > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
                  > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
                  > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
                  > splendors of Rome. [....]"
                  >
                  > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
                  > 432, 2nd paragraph.
                  >
                  http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
                  >
                  >
                  > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                  > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                  > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
                  > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
                  > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
                  > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
                  > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
                  >
                  > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
                  > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
                  > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
                  > paragraph.
                  >
                  > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
                  > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
                  >
                  > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
                  > corresponding quotes).
                  >
                  > TKTE - p. 40
                  >
                  >
                  https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
                  Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
                  >
                  > PTP p. 21
                  >
                  >
                  http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
                  th
                  >
                  > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
                  > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
                  > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
                  > version.
                  >
                  > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
                  > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
                  > text.
                  >
                  >
                  prometheus wrote:
                  > Hello All,
                  > Thanks for sharing and
                  > bringing up this subject.
                  > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
                  > for them, feel rather aloof
                  > and spiritually advanced
                  > due to the "number" on
                  > their EK membership cards.
                  >
                  > They are deluded enough
                  > to think that this number
                  > is an indication of Higher
                  > Con because the liar Twitchell
                  > said it was in order to
                  > sell more memberships
                  > and materials. Klemp
                  > continues the lie!
                  >
                  > The biggest argument for
                  > these deluded people are
                  > the few stories told of Twit,
                  > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
                  > seen somewhere on the
                  > streets, etc. or in a dream
                  > before these newbies saw
                  > their pictures and were
                  > told that these were EK
                  > "Masters."
                  >
                  > Klemp has even revamped
                  > people's experiences of having
                  > seen Jesus by having Ekists
                  > show them pics of Gopal Das,
                  > whereby, they suddenly realized
                  > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
                  > It was a mistake in identity
                  > and was actually Gopal Das
                  > whom they saw!
                  >
                  > The truth is most H.I.s have
                  > little to no actual spiritual
                  > experiences or dreams and
                  > they grab at straws. The
                  > amount of experiences are
                  > no more than any other group
                  > that focuses upon mental
                  > techniques during meditation
                  > or before going to sleep.
                  >
                  > As with all religions it is
                  > a matter of faith and belief
                  > and Klemp has even mentioned
                  > that was this was the real
                  > key to Eckankar.
                  >
                  > I remember once that Klemp
                  > told 4th initiates to hang out
                  > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
                  > to share in their consciousness
                  > and prepare for their 5th. One
                  > person I knew quit hanging
                  > out with her non-H.I. friends
                  > and even looked down her nose
                  > at lower initiates (like herself).
                  >
                  > Basically, as it is within any
                  > hierarchy, the long timers
                  > want to see the newbies go
                  > through the same amount
                  > of crap they had to go through.
                  > It's jealously and envy.
                  >
                  > These H.I.s don't know anymore
                  > about spiritual matters than
                  > the next person because it's
                  > all subjective.
                  >
                  > Basically, old outdated techniques
                  > like focusing upon the Third-
                  > Eye versus the Crown chakra
                  > will never be changed even
                  > though an older EK discourse
                  > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
                  >
                  > Other than that it's all about
                  > selling and supporting Klemp's
                  > ego and the EK Organization
                  > which is Klemp's inherited
                  > vocation and spiritual con.
                  >
                  > Thus, the survival of the EK
                  > Org. and support of Klemp's
                  > second rate books will continue
                  > to be the central focus of Eckankar
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >


                  > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                  > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
                  > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
                  > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
                  > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
                  > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
                  > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
                  > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
                  > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
                  > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
                  >
                  > Lady wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
                  > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
                  > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
                  > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
                  > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
                  > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
                  > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
                  > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
                  > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
                  > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
                  > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
                  > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
                  > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
                  > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
                  > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
                  > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
                  > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
                  > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
                  > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
                  > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
                  > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
                  > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
                  > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
                  > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
                  > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
                  > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
                  > the truth or will figure it out.

                  Rowan.
                • Lady Rowan
                  Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 22, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  

                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:

                     
                    Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
                    As far as my religious views...
                    well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
                    I don't believe in any religion.
                    In some ways I'm both theist
                    and deist, thus, I'm neither
                    agnostic or atheist. I do believe
                    that a deity or deities of some
                    sort exist or existed and they
                    began or seeded the universes.

                    And, (IMO) I believe that there
                    is some sort of "intervention."
                    This is merely one reason as
                    to why "spiritual/religious"
                    experiences i.e. miracles were
                    explained. People will naturally
                    imagine/create, via the mind,
                    all sorts of things. Religions
                    have simply used these events/
                    experiences to reenforce their
                    hold upon people. Still, IMO,
                    there are unexplainable mysterious
                    non-religious connections.
                    We can even call this a Soul
                    to Soul connection linked to
                    an overall network (Over-Soul
                    i.e. Spirit).

                    Thus, I do believe that there
                    is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
                    whereby, people can experience
                    and/or tap into this "divine"
                    (or not) mental-energy source.
                    IMO We are all "plugged" into
                    this network by various ways
                    and means and at various
                    levels (not planes).

                    There are many variables.
                    It could be that this "Source"
                    is a mental and DNA link
                    that expands as we open
                    up certain areas of the mind.
                    Thus, our potential is enabled
                    more and more as we naturally
                    use our curiosity to explore
                    and expand via technology
                    and new thought patterns.
                    It's obvious, to me, that
                    every individual is at their
                    own unique stage of evolution.

                    Group religions create a plateau
                    and will merely close off and
                    stunt potential growth/expansion
                    of awareness for individuals.
                    This is why all religions will
                    use and rely upon "belief" and
                    "faith" to reenforce their religious
                    foundation. Klemp has done
                    the same with Eckankar.

                    ********************************

                    When I was an EK leader I would
                    go out of my way to talk to people
                    individually, especially, after the
                    EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
                    would even encourage the cleric
                    and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
                    to the newbies whether EKists
                    or non-EKists instead of gathering
                    in groups with their friends.

                    I tried to give people what they
                    were seeking but via of the EK
                    teachings. Still, there's a lot of
                    subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
                    Guidelines and EK Dogma does
                    tend to limit what one is supposed
                    to share. And, it was difficult
                    and somewhat frustrating to
                    discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
                    with people who had not read
                    of or understood (been suckered
                    into) that special (pretend)
                    relationship with the Inner
                    Mahanta. This is where one
                    develops a codependent
                    relationship with an imaginary
                    being who is, actually, ones
                    own "inner" self.

                    Anyway, I did greet, listen to
                    and welcome-in those EKists
                    who didn't show up often at
                    EK events and those non-EKists
                    who were curious about Eckankar
                    and seeing what "ECKists" looked
                    like.

                    However, regardless of one's
                    sincerity and confidence of
                    belief, discussions of the "Divine"
                    are still very subjective, and
                    uniquely personal. Therefore
                    I'm sure that everyone on this
                    site (ESA) has a different and
                    unique view, as well as, unique
                    and private "spiritual" experiences
                    that have led us to where we
                    are now... wherever that is!
                    I'm sure that it's still in flux
                    as we continue to explore
                    within our own semi-established
                    beliefs.

                    Prometheus

                    "Lady" wrote:
                    Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
                    mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
                    group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
                    boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
                    introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
                    to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
                    just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
                    became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
                    but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
                    was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
                    that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
                    wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
                    live it.

                    etznab wrote:
                    >
                    > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
                    > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they
                    suddenly
                    > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
                    > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
                    >
                    > ***
                    >
                    > That's ironic. Here's why.
                    >
                    > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
                    > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
                    >
                    > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
                    > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
                    > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
                    > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
                    > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                    >
                    > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
                    > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
                    >
                    > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
                    > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the
                    whole ECK,' he was
                    > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
                    > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
                    > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                    >
                    >
                    > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
                    > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                    >
                    > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
                    > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
                    > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
                    > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
                    > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
                    > Divine Grace.'"
                    >
                    > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
                    > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The
                    Princes":
                    >
                    > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
                    > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
                    > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
                    > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
                    > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
                    > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
                    > Grace.'"
                    >
                    > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
                    >
                    > OK. You'll love this next one :)
                    >
                    > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                    > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                    > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors.
                    When Jesus,
                    > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
                    > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
                    > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
                    > splendors of Rome. [....]"
                    >
                    > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
                    > 432, 2nd paragraph.
                    >
                    http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
                    >
                    >
                    > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                    > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                    > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
                    > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
                    > walked the dusty
                    streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
                    > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
                    > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
                    >
                    > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
                    > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
                    > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
                    > paragraph.
                    >
                    > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
                    > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
                    >
                    > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
                    > corresponding quotes).
                    >
                    > TKTE - p. 40
                    >
                    >
                    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
                    Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1

                    >
                    > PTP p. 21
                    >
                    >
                    http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
                    th

                    >
                    > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
                    > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
                    > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
                    > version.
                    >
                    > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
                    > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
                    > text.
                    >
                    >
                    prometheus wrote:
                    > Hello All,
                    > Thanks for sharing and
                    > bringing up this subject.
                    > Many
                    H.I.s, unfortunately
                    > for them, feel rather aloof
                    > and spiritually advanced
                    > due to the "number" on
                    > their EK membership cards.
                    >
                    > They are deluded enough
                    > to think that this number
                    > is an indication of Higher
                    > Con because the liar Twitchell
                    > said it was in order to
                    > sell more memberships
                    > and materials. Klemp
                    > continues the lie!
                    >
                    > The biggest argument for
                    > these deluded people are
                    > the few stories told of Twit,
                    > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
                    > seen somewhere on the
                    > streets, etc. or in a dream
                    > before these newbies saw
                    > their pictures and were
                    > told that these were EK
                    > "Masters."
                    >
                    > Klemp has even revamped
                    > people's experiences of having
                    > seen Jesus by having Ekists
                    > show them pics of Gopal Das,
                    > whereby, they suddenly realized
                    > that it wasn't
                    Jesus after all.
                    > It was a mistake in identity
                    > and was actually Gopal Das
                    > whom they saw!
                    >
                    > The truth is most H.I.s have
                    > little to no actual spiritual
                    > experiences or dreams and
                    > they grab at straws. The
                    > amount of experiences are
                    > no more than any other group
                    > that focuses upon mental
                    > techniques during meditation
                    > or before going to sleep.
                    >
                    > As with all religions it is
                    > a matter of faith and belief
                    > and Klemp has even mentioned
                    > that was this was the real
                    > key to Eckankar.
                    >
                    > I remember once that Klemp
                    > told 4th initiates to hang out
                    > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
                    > to share in their consciousness
                    > and prepare for their 5th. One
                    > person I knew quit hanging
                    > out with her non-H.I. friends
                    > and even looked down her nose
                    > at lower initiates (like
                    herself).
                    >
                    > Basically, as it is within any
                    > hierarchy, the long timers
                    > want to see the newbies go
                    > through the same amount
                    > of crap they had to go through.
                    > It's jealously and envy.
                    >
                    > These H.I.s don't know anymore
                    > about spiritual matters than
                    > the next person because it's
                    > all subjective.
                    >
                    > Basically, old outdated techniques
                    > like focusing upon the Third-
                    > Eye versus the Crown chakra
                    > will never be changed even
                    > though an older EK discourse
                    > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
                    >
                    > Other than that it's all about
                    > selling and supporting Klemp's
                    > ego and the EK Organization
                    > which is Klemp's inherited
                    > vocation and spiritual con.
                    >
                    > Thus, the survival of the EK
                    > Org. and support of Klemp's
                    > second rate books will continue
                    > to be the central focus of
                    Eckankar
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >

                    > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                    > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
                    > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
                    > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
                    > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
                    > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
                    > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
                    > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
                    > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
                    > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
                    >
                    > Lady wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
                    > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
                    > some history
                    behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
                    > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
                    > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
                    > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
                    > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
                    > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
                    > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
                    > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
                    > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
                    > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
                    > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
                    > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
                    > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated
                    words of the
                    > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
                    > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
                    > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
                    > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
                    > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
                    > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
                    > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
                    > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
                    > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
                    > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
                    > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
                    > the truth or will figure it out.

                    Rowan.



                  • Non
                    Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 2, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics, depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

                      For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive and change into a hunter or prey....

                      I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it. We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or just is what it is.

                      We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

                      Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the pretentious fake promises.

                      Non ; )

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind
                      > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
                      > As far as my religious views...
                      > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
                      > I don't believe in any religion.
                      > In some ways I'm both theist
                      > and deist, thus, I'm neither
                      > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
                      > that a deity or deities of some
                      > sort exist or existed and they
                      > began or seeded the universes.
                      >
                      > And, (IMO) I believe that there
                      > is some sort of "intervention."
                      > This is merely one reason as
                      > to why "spiritual/religious"
                      > experiences i.e. miracles were
                      > explained. People will naturally
                      > imagine/create, via the mind,
                      > all sorts of things. Religions
                      > have simply used these events/
                      > experiences to reenforce their
                      > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
                      > there are unexplainable mysterious
                      > non-religious connections.
                      > We can even call this a Soul
                      > to Soul connection linked to
                      > an overall network (Over-Soul
                      > i.e. Spirit).
                      >
                      > Thus, I do believe that there
                      > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
                      > whereby, people can experience
                      > and/or tap into this "divine"
                      > (or not) mental-energy source.
                      > IMO We are all "plugged" into
                      > this network by various ways
                      > and means and at various
                      > levels (not planes).
                      >
                      > There are many variables.
                      > It could be that this "Source"
                      > is a mental and DNA link
                      > that expands as we open
                      > up certain areas of the mind.
                      > Thus, our potential is enabled
                      > more and more as we naturally
                      > use our curiosity to explore
                      > and expand via technology
                      > and new thought patterns.
                      > It's obvious, to me, that
                      > every individual is at their
                      > own unique stage of evolution.
                      >
                      > Group religions create a plateau
                      > and will merely close off and
                      > stunt potential growth/expansion
                      > of awareness for individuals.
                      > This is why all religions will
                      > use and rely upon "belief" and
                      > "faith" to reenforce their religious
                      > foundation. Klemp has done
                      > the same with Eckankar.
                      >
                      > ********************************
                      >
                      > When I was an EK leader I would
                      > go out of my way to talk to people
                      > individually, especially, after the
                      > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
                      > would even encourage the cleric
                      > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
                      > to the newbies whether EKists
                      > or non-EKists instead of gathering
                      > in groups with their friends.
                      >
                      > I tried to give people what they
                      > were seeking but via of the EK
                      > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
                      > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
                      > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
                      > tend to limit what one is supposed
                      > to share. And, it was difficult
                      > and somewhat frustrating to
                      > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
                      > with people who had not read
                      > of or understood (been suckered
                      > into) that special (pretend)
                      > relationship with the Inner
                      > Mahanta. This is where one
                      > develops a codependent
                      > relationship with an imaginary
                      > being who is, actually, ones
                      > own "inner" self.
                      >
                      > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
                      > and welcome-in those EKists
                      > who didn't show up often at
                      > EK events and those non-EKists
                      > who were curious about Eckankar
                      > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
                      > like.
                      >
                      > However, regardless of one's
                      > sincerity and confidence of
                      > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
                      > are still very subjective, and
                      > uniquely personal. Therefore
                      > I'm sure that everyone on this
                      > site (ESA) has a different and
                      > unique view, as well as, unique
                      > and private "spiritual" experiences
                      > that have led us to where we
                      > are now... wherever that is!
                      > I'm sure that it's still in flux
                      > as we continue to explore
                      > within our own semi-established
                      > beliefs.
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > "Lady" wrote:
                      > Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
                      > mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
                      > group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
                      > boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
                      > introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
                      > to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
                      > just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
                      > became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
                      > but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
                      > was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
                      > that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
                      > wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
                      > live it.
                      >
                      > etznab wrote:
                      > >
                      > > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
                      > > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
                      > > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
                      > > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
                      > >
                      > > ***
                      > >
                      > > That's ironic. Here's why.
                      > >
                      > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
                      > > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
                      > >
                      > > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
                      > > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
                      > > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
                      > > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
                      > > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                      > >
                      > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
                      > > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
                      > >
                      > > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
                      > > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
                      > > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
                      > > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
                      > > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
                      > > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                      > >
                      > > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
                      > > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
                      > > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
                      > > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
                      > > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
                      > > Divine Grace.'"
                      > >
                      > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
                      > > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                      > >
                      > > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
                      > > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
                      > > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
                      > > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
                      > > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
                      > > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
                      > > Grace.'"
                      > >
                      > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
                      > >
                      > > OK. You'll love this next one :)
                      > >
                      > > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                      > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                      > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
                      > > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
                      > > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
                      > > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
                      > > splendors of Rome. [....]"
                      > >
                      > > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
                      > > 432, 2nd paragraph.
                      > >
                      > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                      > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                      > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
                      > > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
                      > > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
                      > > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
                      > > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
                      > >
                      > > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
                      > > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
                      > > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
                      > > paragraph.
                      > >
                      > > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
                      > > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
                      > >
                      > > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
                      > > corresponding quotes).
                      > >
                      > > TKTE - p. 40
                      > >
                      > >
                      > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
                      > Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
                      > >
                      > > PTP p. 21
                      > >
                      > >
                      > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
                      > th
                      > >
                      > > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
                      > > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
                      > > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
                      > > version.
                      > >
                      > > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
                      > > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
                      > > text.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      > > Hello All,
                      > > Thanks for sharing and
                      > > bringing up this subject.
                      > > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
                      > > for them, feel rather aloof
                      > > and spiritually advanced
                      > > due to the "number" on
                      > > their EK membership cards.
                      > >
                      > > They are deluded enough
                      > > to think that this number
                      > > is an indication of Higher
                      > > Con because the liar Twitchell
                      > > said it was in order to
                      > > sell more memberships
                      > > and materials. Klemp
                      > > continues the lie!
                      > >
                      > > The biggest argument for
                      > > these deluded people are
                      > > the few stories told of Twit,
                      > > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
                      > > seen somewhere on the
                      > > streets, etc. or in a dream
                      > > before these newbies saw
                      > > their pictures and were
                      > > told that these were EK
                      > > "Masters."
                      > >
                      > > Klemp has even revamped
                      > > people's experiences of having
                      > > seen Jesus by having Ekists
                      > > show them pics of Gopal Das,
                      > > whereby, they suddenly realized
                      > > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
                      > > It was a mistake in identity
                      > > and was actually Gopal Das
                      > > whom they saw!
                      > >
                      > > The truth is most H.I.s have
                      > > little to no actual spiritual
                      > > experiences or dreams and
                      > > they grab at straws. The
                      > > amount of experiences are
                      > > no more than any other group
                      > > that focuses upon mental
                      > > techniques during meditation
                      > > or before going to sleep.
                      > >
                      > > As with all religions it is
                      > > a matter of faith and belief
                      > > and Klemp has even mentioned
                      > > that was this was the real
                      > > key to Eckankar.
                      > >
                      > > I remember once that Klemp
                      > > told 4th initiates to hang out
                      > > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
                      > > to share in their consciousness
                      > > and prepare for their 5th. One
                      > > person I knew quit hanging
                      > > out with her non-H.I. friends
                      > > and even looked down her nose
                      > > at lower initiates (like herself).
                      > >
                      > > Basically, as it is within any
                      > > hierarchy, the long timers
                      > > want to see the newbies go
                      > > through the same amount
                      > > of crap they had to go through.
                      > > It's jealously and envy.
                      > >
                      > > These H.I.s don't know anymore
                      > > about spiritual matters than
                      > > the next person because it's
                      > > all subjective.
                      > >
                      > > Basically, old outdated techniques
                      > > like focusing upon the Third-
                      > > Eye versus the Crown chakra
                      > > will never be changed even
                      > > though an older EK discourse
                      > > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
                      > >
                      > > Other than that it's all about
                      > > selling and supporting Klemp's
                      > > ego and the EK Organization
                      > > which is Klemp's inherited
                      > > vocation and spiritual con.
                      > >
                      > > Thus, the survival of the EK
                      > > Org. and support of Klemp's
                      > > second rate books will continue
                      > > to be the central focus of Eckankar
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus
                      > >
                      >
                      > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      >
                      > > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
                      > > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
                      > > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
                      > > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
                      > > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
                      > > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
                      > > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
                      > > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
                      > > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
                      > >
                      > > Lady wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
                      > > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
                      > > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
                      > > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
                      > > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
                      > > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
                      > > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
                      > > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
                      > > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
                      > > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
                      > > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
                      > > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
                      > > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
                      > > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
                      > > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
                      > > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
                      > > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
                      > > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
                      > > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
                      > > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
                      > > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
                      > > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
                      > > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
                      > > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
                      > > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
                      > > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
                      > > the truth or will figure it out.
                      >
                      > Rowan.
                      >
                    • Lady Rowan
                      Yup, I agree with you about Ramtha...she creeps me out, even in the movie...but I m talking about the science of quantum physics, M theory, and string theory,
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 5, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Yup, I agree with you about Ramtha...she creeps me out, even in the movie...but I'm talking about the science of quantum physics, M theory, and string theory, which have nothing to do with JZ Knight's 'religion' and to me, very disturbing teaching if you see all of it.  I just find it very interesting.  Thanks for sharing.  R

                        From: Non <eckchains@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2012 2:15 AM
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:

                         
                        Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics, depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

                        For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive and change into a hunter or prey....

                        I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it. We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or just is what it is.

                        We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

                        Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the pretentious fake promises.

                        Non ; )

                        --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion or following.  About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people like me), but again always hungered for more.  Another fav is Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but I got the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and still have a hard time wrapping my mind
                        > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate any of it, as it is so rich.  But I do like the fact that science has acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to me) way.  It's awesome.  Rowan  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        > To: mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting Comments on this site:
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
                        > As far as my religious views...
                        > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
                        > I don't believe in any religion.
                        > In some ways I'm both theist
                        > and deist, thus, I'm neither
                        > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
                        > that a deity or deities of some
                        > sort exist or existed and they
                        > began or seeded the universes.
                        >
                        > And, (IMO) I believe that there
                        > is some sort of "intervention."
                        > This is merely one reason as
                        > to why "spiritual/religious"
                        > experiences i.e. miracles were
                        > explained. People will naturally
                        > imagine/create, via the mind,
                        > all sorts of things. Religions
                        > have simply used these events/
                        > experiences to reenforce their
                        > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
                        > there are unexplainable mysterious
                        > non-religious connections.
                        > We can even call this a Soul
                        > to Soul connection linked to
                        > an overall network (Over-Soul
                        > i.e. Spirit).
                        >
                        > Thus, I do believe that there
                        > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
                        > whereby, people can experience
                        > and/or tap into this "divine"
                        > (or not) mental-energy source.
                        > IMO We are all "plugged" into
                        > this network by various ways
                        > and means and at various
                        > levels (not planes).
                        >
                        > There are many variables.
                        > It could be that this "Source"
                        > is a mental and DNA link
                        > that expands as we open
                        > up certain areas of the mind.
                        > Thus, our potential is enabled
                        > more and more as we naturally
                        > use our curiosity to explore
                        > and expand via technology
                        > and new thought patterns.
                        > It's obvious, to me, that
                        > every individual is at their
                        > own unique stage of evolution.
                        >
                        > Group religions create a plateau
                        > and will merely close off and
                        > stunt potential growth/expansion
                        > of awareness for individuals.
                        > This is why all religions will
                        > use and rely upon "belief" and
                        > "faith" to reenforce their religious
                        > foundation. Klemp has done
                        > the same with Eckankar.
                        >
                        > ********************************
                        >
                        > When I was an EK leader I would
                        > go out of my way to talk to people
                        > individually, especially, after the
                        > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
                        > would even encourage the cleric
                        > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
                        > to the newbies whether EKists
                        > or non-EKists instead of gathering
                        > in groups with their friends.
                        >
                        > I tried to give people what they
                        > were seeking but via of the EK
                        > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
                        > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
                        > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
                        > tend to limit what one is supposed
                        > to share. And, it was difficult
                        > and somewhat frustrating to
                        > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
                        > with people who had not read
                        > of or understood (been suckered
                        > into) that special (pretend)
                        > relationship with the Inner
                        > Mahanta. This is where one
                        > develops a codependent
                        > relationship with an imaginary
                        > being who is, actually, ones
                        > own "inner" self.
                        >
                        > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
                        > and welcome-in those EKists
                        > who didn't show up often at
                        > EK events and those non-EKists
                        > who were curious about Eckankar
                        > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
                        > like.
                        >
                        > However, regardless of one's
                        > sincerity and confidence of
                        > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
                        > are still very subjective, and
                        > uniquely personal. Therefore
                        > I'm sure that everyone on this
                        > site (ESA) has a different and
                        > unique view, as well as, unique
                        > and private "spiritual" experiences
                        > that have led us to where we
                        > are now... wherever that is!
                        > I'm sure that it's still in flux
                        > as we continue to explore
                        > within our own semi-established
                        > beliefs.
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >
                        > "Lady" wrote:
                        > Just to clarify, really the only time I felt dismissed and had problems with the
                        > mixed messages I was getting, was when I went to class to learn about Eck at the
                        > group center. I only attended worship a few times, and found it VERY
                        > boring...yawn... But, a man (outside of Eck) who later became a friend that
                        > introduced me to Eck, was always very polite and kind, and told me what I wanted
                        > to know when I asked, but I really didn't always asked specific questions, I
                        > just wanted to know the spiritual stuff. Then a lady (also outside of Eck) who
                        > became a friend of mine told me she was an Eck, and she was pretty informative,
                        > but I couldn't wrap my head around all the details. She had been pagan, like I
                        > was at the time, and so we did talk a lot about soul travel and things like
                        > that. But, her life was so messed up and she was always so depressed, I
                        > wondered how her spiritual knowledge was helping her since she didn't seem to
                        > live it.
                        >
                        > etznab wrote:
                        > >
                        > > "Klemp has even revamped people's experiences of having seen Jesus by
                        > > having Ekists show them pics of Gopal Das, whereby, they suddenly
                        > > realized that it wasn't Jesus after all. It was a mistake in identity
                        > > and was actually Gopal Das whom they saw!"
                        > >
                        > > ***
                        > >
                        > > That's ironic. Here's why.
                        > >
                        > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installment in
                        > > Orion Magazine. Ch. I, Par. 41:
                        > >
                        > > "When Jesus looked upon His people and said, `I cannot tell you
                        > > more because you cannot hear the whole truth.' He was saying that they
                        > > were so far down the spiral of life they could not grasp His meaning.
                        > > To tell them all would bring disorder into their lives, for once
                        > > exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                        > >
                        > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated
                        > > Way Press (1970). Ch. I, Par. 42:
                        > >
                        > > "When the ECK Master, Gopal Das, looked upon his people and said,
                        > > `I cannot tell you more because you cannot hear the whole ECK,' he was
                        > > saying that they were so far down the spiral of life they could not
                        > > grasp his meaning. To tell them would bring disorder into their lives,
                        > > for once exposed to Truth, those not understanding develop hostility."
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as it appeared in installments in
                        > > Orion Magazine. Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                        > >
                        > > Par. 12: "Therefore, the principal (sic) involved here is: `We
                        > > live and have our being in the Supreme Being.' Jesus said it in another
                        > > way as `we move and have our being in God.' Other savants e.g.,
                        > > Jalalddin Maulana Rumi put it another way, `Divine Grace is not limited
                        > > by the conditions of ability, but ability, in fact, is conditioned by
                        > > Divine Grace.'"
                        > >
                        > > The Flute Of God by Paul Twitchell as published by Illuminated Way
                        > > Press (1970). Chapter II - "The Symbol of The Princes":
                        > >
                        > > Par. 11: "Therefore, the principle involved here is,`We live and
                        > > have our being in the Supreme Being.' Lai Tsi, the Chinese ECK Master,
                        > > said it this way, `We live and move and have our being in the SUGMAD.'
                        > > Other savants state it in a slightly different vein. For instance,
                        > > Jalaluddin Maulana Rumi said, `Divine Grace is not limited by the
                        > > conditions of ability - but ability, in fact, is conditioned by Divine
                        > > Grace.'"
                        > >
                        > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
                        > >
                        > > OK. You'll love this next one :)
                        > >
                        > > "[...] When the great Buddha was a poor hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                        > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                        > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Jesus,
                        > > who might have commanded any army â€" so great was his mental energy â€"
                        > > walked the dusty streets, tired and hungry in order that he might carry
                        > > the bread of life to the multitudes, his greatness eclipsed all the
                        > > splendors of Rome. [....]"
                        > >
                        > > Based on: The Path Of The Masters - THE GREAT WORK OF THE MASTERS, p.
                        > > 432, 2nd paragraph.
                        > >
                        > http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > "[...] When Buddha was a poor, hungry beggar in pursuit of his
                        > > spiritual objectives, his true nobility stood out far more than it did
                        > > when he was in the midst of his father's royal splendors. When Rebazar
                        > > Tarzs might have commanded any army, so great was his mental energy,
                        > > walked the dusty streets when in his youth, tired and hungry, in order
                        > > that he might carry the spiritual message to the multitudes, his
                        > > greatness eclipsed all the splendors of this world. [....]"
                        > >
                        > > Based on: Letters to Gail, Volume 1, by Paul Twitchell (d. 1971),
                        > > Copyright 1973 ECKANKAR, Original copyright 1973 by Gail A. Twitchell;
                        > > copyright transferred to ECKANKAR 1982, 5th Printing-1983, p. 117, 2nd
                        > > paragraph.
                        > >
                        > > Are Gopal Das, Lai Tsi and Rebazar Tarzs all Jesus? Wait just a minute.
                        > > Don't forget Yaubl Sacabi.
                        > >
                        > > Here's another interesting quote (search the link pages for
                        > > corresponding quotes).
                        > >
                        > > TKTE - p. 40
                        > >
                        > >
                        > https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0KObtCQpPKbZDhiNjhkZmQtNjI5Yy00ZTZlLWJjZDYtYjY3\
                        > Yzg1Y2I4Mzhj/edit?pli=1
                        > >
                        > > PTP p. 21
                        > >
                        > >
                        > http://www.scribd.com/doc/82916572/Practicing-the-Presence-of-God-Joel-S-Goldsmi\
                        > th
                        > >
                        > > Notice how Jesus and Father - in Goldsmith's version - appear where Eck
                        > > Master Yaubl Sacabi & Sugmad appear in Twitchell's version. Notice also
                        > > the many words in Twitchell's version similar to those in Goldsmith's
                        > > version.
                        > >
                        > > Are they all Jesus? The earlier versions don't mention Eck Masters. By
                        > > the looks of it those Eck Masters were used to cover-up the earlier
                        > > text.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > prometheus wrote:
                        > > Hello All,
                        > > Thanks for sharing and
                        > > bringing up this subject.
                        > > Many H.I.s, unfortunately
                        > > for them, feel rather aloof
                        > > and spiritually advanced
                        > > due to the "number" on
                        > > their EK membership cards.
                        > >
                        > > They are deluded enough
                        > > to think that this number
                        > > is an indication of Higher
                        > > Con because the liar Twitchell
                        > > said it was in order to
                        > > sell more memberships
                        > > and materials. Klemp
                        > > continues the lie!
                        > >
                        > > The biggest argument for
                        > > these deluded people are
                        > > the few stories told of Twit,
                        > > Klemp, Rebazar, etc. were
                        > > seen somewhere on the
                        > > streets, etc. or in a dream
                        > > before these newbies saw
                        > > their pictures and were
                        > > told that these were EK
                        > > "Masters."
                        > >
                        > > Klemp has even revamped
                        > > people's experiences of having
                        > > seen Jesus by having Ekists
                        > > show them pics of Gopal Das,
                        > > whereby, they suddenly realized
                        > > that it wasn't Jesus after all.
                        > > It was a mistake in identity
                        > > and was actually Gopal Das
                        > > whom they saw!
                        > >
                        > > The truth is most H.I.s have
                        > > little to no actual spiritual
                        > > experiences or dreams and
                        > > they grab at straws. The
                        > > amount of experiences are
                        > > no more than any other group
                        > > that focuses upon mental
                        > > techniques during meditation
                        > > or before going to sleep.
                        > >
                        > > As with all religions it is
                        > > a matter of faith and belief
                        > > and Klemp has even mentioned
                        > > that was this was the real
                        > > key to Eckankar.
                        > >
                        > > I remember once that Klemp
                        > > told 4th initiates to hang out
                        > > with 5ths and 6ths as a way
                        > > to share in their consciousness
                        > > and prepare for their 5th. One
                        > > person I knew quit hanging
                        > > out with her non-H.I. friends
                        > > and even looked down her nose
                        > > at lower initiates (like herself).
                        > >
                        > > Basically, as it is within any
                        > > hierarchy, the long timers
                        > > want to see the newbies go
                        > > through the same amount
                        > > of crap they had to go through.
                        > > It's jealously and envy.
                        > >
                        > > These H.I.s don't know anymore
                        > > about spiritual matters than
                        > > the next person because it's
                        > > all subjective.
                        > >
                        > > Basically, old outdated techniques
                        > > like focusing upon the Third-
                        > > Eye versus the Crown chakra
                        > > will never be changed even
                        > > though an older EK discourse
                        > > uses the Crown Chakra technique.
                        > >
                        > > Other than that it's all about
                        > > selling and supporting Klemp's
                        > > ego and the EK Organization
                        > > which is Klemp's inherited
                        > > vocation and spiritual con.
                        > >
                        > > Thus, the survival of the EK
                        > > Org. and support of Klemp's
                        > > second rate books will continue
                        > > to be the central focus of Eckankar
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        >
                        > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        >
                        > > Thank you Lady for expressing just how I felt while I was in. You did
                        > > it so well. Looking back, I am wondering if a lot of high initiates
                        > > shy away from answering questions for newbies because they are afraid
                        > > they will say something that is frowned upon by Minneapolis and also
                        > > like you say show they don't know a lot anyway. When I was very new
                        > > and would talk about some experience I had, I often wondered if it was
                        > > jealousy that made some of them snap at me because I did so. It was
                        > > kind of like as a newbie, they couldn't tolerate you having experiences
                        > > they had not had. Thanks again for your posting.
                        > >
                        > > Lady wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello Prometheus et al. The reason I joined this group mostly is
                        > > because I was curious. I was actually googling the "Hu" looking for
                        > > some history behind it other than what Eck says it is and this came up.
                        > > I still enjoy singing the Hu, but I like chanting and doing chakra
                        > > clearing, etc. But, wow, I was so surprised to find out there were
                        > > people who felt about Eck like I did. I wasn't in it very long, but
                        > > having been a seeker for such a long time, I just had this feeling
                        > > somethings were just off. The biggest red flags for me was when I would
                        > > ask a higher intiate any questions, I just got the brush off and
                        > > eventually realized that most of them probably didn't know much more
                        > > than I did. I was born into the Catholic church, and I felt like every
                        > > time I asked a question, it was like I was committing a 'sin.' LOL!!!
                        > > But, I was looking for spiritual truth, not someone else's philosophy,
                        > > and although I felt that most of the people were nice and polite
                        > > enough, there was no re al substance, just regurgitated words of the
                        > > same thing. I have no animosity toward HK or Eck, probably because I
                        > > wasn't in that long, but it's nice to know I'm not deluded...which is
                        > > how I felt they were treating me when I wanted to know more. It's like
                        > > thinking I'm crazy when I finally come to realize everyone else around
                        > > me is and I'm the only sane one...It reminds me of the Twilight Zone
                        > > episode where this beautiful girl's face is wrapped in gauze, and the
                        > > doctors come in with surgical masks on and tell her they did their
                        > > best, but there was nothing they could do, that she would remain ugly
                        > > for the rest of her life, and they take their masks off and all have
                        > > pig faces...anyway. We can only hope the best for those still caught in
                        > > the deception, but I believe somewhere in their 'knower' that they know
                        > > the truth or will figure it out.
                        >
                        > Rowan.
                        >



                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Non eckchains, I ll have to admit that I didn t like What the Bleep. I know it had a big Canadian following like Adam Dreamhealer who, btw, also used
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 11, 2012
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                          Hello Non eckchains,
                          I'll have to admit that
                          I didn't like "What the Bleep."
                          I know it had a big Canadian
                          following like Adam Dreamhealer
                          who, btw, also used the
                          Quantum whatever speak.
                          Dreamhealer is a young
                          con artist whose father, mother,
                          and sister were all part of
                          the con. Adam had a ghost
                          writer co-author and do his
                          first book. Have you ever heard
                          the New Age term "organic"
                          being used to describe all
                          sorts of things. It's like with
                          "quantum." All of these people
                          are looking for a following
                          and to use the right "hook"
                          depending upon their audience
                          of perspective suckers... like
                          with Eckankar.

                          Prometheus


                          "Non" eckchains wrote:
                          Just had to respond about What the Bleep... and how it had a lot to do with
                          Ramtha, I believe, who was a woman claiming to channel and this was a very
                          Cultic group. Anyway, be careful about exchanging one Cult for another. Quantum
                          physics is very interesting and may apply in some cases to what you can call
                          Soul or Being etc., but even quantum physicists admit that it all depends on the
                          micro or the macro. Newtonian physics is just as valid as quantum physics,
                          depending on what you're looking at and what you're trying to do, like walking
                          across the street vs. a scientific lab with special equipment and so on.

                          For me it's that there is a presence that I am a part of, but I'm also a social
                          animal and what I know is always in process, and also what I don't know. Are
                          there really any Known Knowns anyway : )? I used to have this feeling of
                          exquisite ecstasy when I just let my thoughts flow and be and there would be a
                          gap when this state would happen and it was non-conceptual. I sometimes envy
                          animals when they are in a state of just being. But then they have to survive
                          and change into a hunter or prey....

                          I saw that Movie The Master and this Cult leader keeps referring to the supposed
                          real state Of "Perfect", that is so obviously absurd when you really look at it.
                          We can only do our best imo. Sometimes it's really nice and sometimes not, or
                          just is what it is.

                          We'd all be a lot better off if we could just increasingly develop a sense of
                          overall compassion, cause us humans have more responsibility imo, because we
                          have brains that give us more options for good or worse.

                          Just my take, but I shy away from anything that starts to sound like another
                          dogma. We don't really know anything do we. We can only theorize about reality
                          and our experience is then kind of a virtual reality, but even that can get too
                          carried away. Just like the wild animal in its element, but that too only goes
                          so far. Those who can't adapt and lack flexibility become extinct sooner or
                          later...... eckankar like other new age religions are kind of on their last
                          legs, but a lot of people still get fooled by the grandiosity and the
                          pretentious fake promises.

                          Non ; )

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Lady Rowan <ladyrowan07@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Well said Prometheus... I too, after seeking spiritual knowledge which I
                          thought I could find in any certain group or individuals who would have any
                          kind of answer, but came up short, feel the same toward any specific religion
                          or following. About 5 years ago, a friend of my turned me onto the movie "What
                          The BLEEP Do We Know," which was about quantum theory, and I found it
                          fascinating and I read other books and some of Gary Zukov's books on basically
                          the same concepts, my fav book being The Dancing Wu Li Masters (for lay people
                          like me), but again always hungered for more. Another fav is Brian Greene's
                          The Elegant Universe, which delves in deeper into quantum physics, string
                          theory, and M theory, which was beautifully done and easily understandable for
                          this lay person...the book was a little hard for me to understand, but IÂ got
                          the video of it from the library and watched it as many times as I could (and
                          still have a hard time wrapping my mind
                          > around its awesomeness)...and as elegant as our universe is and that most
                          High Power that keeps us all connected is, I couldn't even begin to regurgitate
                          any of it, as it is so rich. But I do like the fact that science has
                          acknowledged that connected creation in such a beautiful (almost spiritual to
                          me) way.  It's awesome. Rowan Â
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 12:04 PM
                          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Becoming a New Member and/or Posting
                          Comments on this site:
                          >
                          >
                          > Â
                          > Hello Lady, Etznab, Janice, and All,
                          > As far as my religious views...
                          > well, I can't even say I'm a pagan.
                          > I don't believe in any religion.
                          > In some ways I'm both theist
                          > and deist, thus, I'm neither
                          > agnostic or atheist. I do believe
                          > that a deity or deities of some
                          > sort exist or existed and they
                          > began or seeded the universes.
                          >
                          > And, (IMO) I believe that there
                          > is some sort of "intervention."
                          > This is merely one reason as
                          > to why "spiritual/religious"
                          > experiences i.e. miracles were
                          > explained. People will naturally
                          > imagine/create, via the mind,
                          > all sorts of things. Religions
                          > have simply used these events/
                          > experiences to reenforce their
                          > hold upon people. Still, IMO,
                          > there are unexplainable mysterious
                          > non-religious connections.
                          > We can even call this a Soul
                          > to Soul connection linked to
                          > an overall network (Over-Soul
                          > i.e. Spirit).
                          >
                          > Thus, I do believe that there
                          > is a divine harmony of "spirit,"
                          > whereby, people can experience
                          > and/or tap into this "divine"
                          > (or not) mental-energy source.
                          > IMO We are all "plugged" into
                          > this network by various ways
                          > and means and at various
                          > levels (not planes).
                          >
                          > There are many variables.
                          > It could be that this "Source"
                          > is a mental and DNA link
                          > that expands as we open
                          > up certain areas of the mind.
                          > Thus, our potential is enabled
                          > more and more as we naturally
                          > use our curiosity to explore
                          > and expand via technology
                          > and new thought patterns.
                          > It's obvious, to me, that
                          > every individual is at their
                          > own unique stage of evolution.
                          >
                          > Group religions create a plateau
                          > and will merely close off and
                          > stunt potential growth/expansion
                          > of awareness for individuals.
                          > This is why all religions will
                          > use and rely upon "belief" and
                          > "faith" to reenforce their religious
                          > foundation. Klemp has done
                          > the same with Eckankar.
                          >
                          > ********************************
                          >
                          > When I was an EK leader I would
                          > go out of my way to talk to people
                          > individually, especially, after the
                          > EWS (ECK Worship Service). I
                          > would even encourage the cleric
                          > and other H.I.s or 4ths to talk
                          > to the newbies whether EKists
                          > or non-EKists instead of gathering
                          > in groups with their friends.
                          >
                          > I tried to give people what they
                          > were seeking but via of the EK
                          > teachings. Still, there's a lot of
                          > subjectivity. Unfortunately, the
                          > Guidelines and EK Dogma does
                          > tend to limit what one is supposed
                          > to share. And, it was difficult
                          > and somewhat frustrating to
                          > discuss the Eckankar dogma/belief
                          > with people who had not read
                          > of or understood (been suckered
                          > into) that special (pretend)
                          > relationship with the Inner
                          > Mahanta. This is where one
                          > develops a codependent
                          > relationship with an imaginary
                          > being who is, actually, ones
                          > own "inner" self.
                          >
                          > Anyway, I did greet, listen to
                          > and welcome-in those EKists
                          > who didn't show up often at
                          > EK events and those non-EKists
                          > who were curious about Eckankar
                          > and seeing what "ECKists" looked
                          > like.
                          >
                          > However, regardless of one's
                          > sincerity and confidence of
                          > belief, discussions of the "Divine"
                          > are still very subjective, and
                          > uniquely personal. Therefore
                          > I'm sure that everyone on this
                          > site (ESA) has a different and
                          > unique view, as well as, unique
                          > and private "spiritual" experiences
                          > that have led us to where we
                          > are now... wherever that is!
                          > I'm sure that it's still in flux
                          > as we continue to explore
                          > within our own semi-established
                          > beliefs.
                          >
                          > Prometheus
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