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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley

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  • Janice Pfeiffer
    Exceptionally, good point etznab. Thank you very much.  My you guys are sharp!  ... From: etznab@aol.com Subject: Re:
    Message 1 of 40 , Sep 4, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Exceptionally, good point etznab. Thank you very much.  My you guys are sharp! 

      --- On Mon, 8/27/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

      From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, August 27, 2012, 7:27 PM

       
      "Can you give any ideas of why the vision of the man was shrouded in
      blue light which is most definitely sounds like an eckankar connection?"

      People in European cultures (at least) used to paint themselves blue
      before battle. Any idea why? I think it has to do with the afterlife.

      And in India (at least) numerous people and deities were pictured blue.
      It's not a new thing.

      http://www.hindu-blog.com/2009/06/hindu-gods-and-blue-color-why-hindu.html

      Egypt too.

      "Blue was symbolic of the sky and of water. In a cosmic sense, this
      extended its symbolism to the heavens and of the primeval floods. In
      both of these cases, blue took on a meaning of life and re-birth.
      [etc., etc.]"

      http://www.egyptianmyths.net/colors.htm

      In other spiritual traditions, as even with certain Eckankar writings,
      blue is a color associated with the "Mental" plane.

      Think about the largest objects visible by day, like the sky and the
      ocean. Blue is a major color that people are familiar with.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sun, Aug 26, 2012 10:38 pm
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley

       
      Hi Russ,
       
      The psychic sensitivity thing is great and I know it is what prompted
      me to have experiences with the lem and others in my early eck days. 
      But I am still struggling with the idea of the experiences such as you
      originally described that happens to a lot of people before knowing
      about eckankar.  Seeing what you wrote helped me remember that it was a
      pre-experience that indeed allowed eckankar to get me hooked and I
      realized, I couldn't explain mine either. 
       
      So I take it that you feel you may have seen a master of some kind and
      it really had nothing to do with eckankar even though you wanted to
      believe that it did?
       
      I really like the way you tied it all together in this second posting. 
      I can see how a person might be influenced on a conscious level.  I am
      still grappling with this thing that happened before even knowing about
      eckankar,  My mind rebels against the fact that it could be a
      reoccuring coinsidence and the idea that it is an influence on a
      unconscious level is intolerable.  To believe the latter, gives
      eckankar more power than I would wish them to have.
       
      Can you give any ideas of why the vision of the man was shrouded in
      blue light which is most definitely sounds like an eckankar
      connection? 
       
      Would you have associated this sighting with eckankar if the man was
      surrounded by white light?
       
      For me, before I found eckankar, not only was I seeing the blue light,
      I was buying light blue clothes almost exclusively and people started
      commenting that I almost always wore light blue. 
       
      Sorry if I am harping on this thing but I realized how what I
      experienced influenced me to be open to eckankar and I feel a strong
      need to understand how it could happen with out my conscious
      knowledge.  Maybe it insults my dignity a little. 
       
      I am not disturbed that I had the experiences but I am disturbed that
      they were so easily tied to eckankar.  I just can't get a grip on how
      that could be.  Did I absorb some eckankar culture with out having any
      experience with them?  At least enough to be susceptible.
       
      Again I am wondering if the org or people of eckankar have the ability
      to influenece others on an unconscious level before introduction to
      eckankar.  That sounds a bit nuts to me and I am not really comfortable
      with that idea but the fact is it happened with me, you and others. 
       
      Again and again the question comes back.  How can you have an
      experience seemingly related to something that you have had no
      experience with.  Why was I seeing a blue light and not a white light. 
      A white light I had seen before.  I even saw a golden light years
      before.  So why at that particular time was it a blue light? 
       
      I sure hope you ,Russ and others have more you can throw out to help me
      clarify this thing.  For me it is like an accident happened yet there
      are no real clues about how it happened.  Thanks for bearing with me. 
      I enjoyed your writing.  I just don't know how to use it for me.
       
       
       

      --- On Mon, 8/27/12, Russ Rodnick &lt;russrodnick@...&gt; wrote:

      From: Russ Rodnick &lt;russrodnick@...&gt;
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley
      To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com"
      &lt;EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com&gt;
      Date: Monday, August 27, 2012, 2:09 AM

        One thing that occurred to me is that in certain mental atmospheres,
      experiences of this kind are possible. A certain 'psychic sensitivity'
      happens and people can see and sense entities or energies of a
      meta-physical nature. Eckankar, knowing this may take advantage of this
      phenomenon, supplying people with a particular mythology, giving them a
      sense of personal connection which may have nothing whatsoever to do
      with the original phenom. I think the mental atmosphere is sustained
      bya state of being open to this type of experience. A receptivity to
      something 'more'.
       
      SO, interesting to me is that the process of 'opening' to somethng more
      can be done, without any organized religion but for me this requires a
      strong belief in my worthiness to live this way.And an awareness that
      the essence of self is non-physical and can live without the physical
      body,, inhabiting other planes of existence, now and after death of the
      PB.
      There I go  again...
      Russ

      From: "etznab@..." &lt;etznab@...&gt;
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 8:55 PM
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley

        "So, in short: Why do people have experiences that appear to be
      related
      to eckankar before hearing about eckankar."

      Just adding comments about this. The experiences before Eckankar
      (especially those of having met Eck Masters) is now one of the core
      "selling points" of Eckankar (in my opinion). However, I can't recall
      any experiences where the person(s) (Masters) that people met before
      Eckankar gave their names.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Janice Pfeiffer &lt;mailto:jepfeiffer%40sbcglobal.net&gt;
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      &lt;mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogro ups.com&gt;
      Sent: Sun, Aug 26, 2012 8:48 pm
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley

       
      Hi Prometheus,
       
      The dream experience I had was so real that I took it as a gift.  I
      value it still.
       
      What hooked me on eckankar is their claims concerning the spiritual
      significance of dreams.  Also, I was seeing the blue light.
       
      I felt a need to comment on Russ' question about his vision before
      finding eckankar and the fact that it seem to be a prerequisite to
      finding eckankar. 
       
      I heard other people talk about something happening that kind of set
      them up to accept eckankar.
       
      Can you give any insight to the fact that some people do seem to
      have an experience that is similar to what eck teachings describe
      before knowing anything about eckankar? 
       
      I like Russ, do wonder how this happens if we don't know anything about
      eckankar.
       
      Previously a discussion went on about what keeps people believing in
      eckankar even after hearing the truth.
       
      I didn't think about it during the previous discussion but it probably
      was the thing that brought me in and that held me in longer than it
      would have with out the pre-experience.
       
      I think this is a common occurence and a possible explanation of why we
      hang on even realizing the lies. I remember holding on to my
      pre-experience at times when I had doubts about the org.  It was like;
      to negate eckankar would negate the pre-experience.  So I stayed and
      thought I just didn't understand until finally, the stupid stuff I saw
      just couldn't be ignored any longer and I finally saw that it had
      nothing to do with me. 
       
      So, in short: Why do people have experiences that appear to be related
      to eckankar before hearing about eckankar.
       
      Thanks, As you can see, Russ' comments really got me worked up.
       

      --- On Mon, 8/27/12, prometheus_973
      &lt;mailto:prometheus_973%40yahoo.com&gt;
      wrote:

      From: prometheus_973 &lt;mailto:prometheus_973%40yahoo.com&gt;
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley
      To: mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, August 27, 2012, 12:25 AM

        Hello All,
      IMO most of the time we
      are simply setting ourselves
      up for whatever imagined
      experience our minds can
      create by tricking our eyes
      and other senses because
      we are so desperately needing
      and wanting to know about
      God and the mysteries of
      the universe. Are there real
      phenomena outside of the
      creations of the mind? Yes!
      But, is it related to a God?
      Maybe, maybe not. It all
      depends and is not for me
      to convince others either
      one way or another. If one
      has a real God experience
      then in what way and to
      what known purpose?

      I do know that Twitchell,
      Gross, Klemp, L. Ron Hubbard,
      and Joseph Smith (to name
      a few) are/were all liars and
      conmen and not "spiritual"
      due to their dishonesty and
      lack of morals and ethics.

      Religion, in the beginning,
      can inspire and prime the
      pump, so to speak, but then
      it (people and dogma) get
      in the way of the seeker
      where the group "path"
      becomes a trap for the weak
      minded via ego and delusion.
      Most religionists are programmed
      to see their doubts as tests
      while overlooking the possibility
      of it being a trap... either
      manmade or other worldly
      made. Because if we assume
      God exists then shouldn't
      we consider that the Devil
      or a Kal exists as well? Maybe
      not directly in a divine sense
      which means that most all
      religions have it wrong!

      The truth is that any "spiritual"
      experience will always be
      subjective even if we think
      there are objective factors
      having taken place.

      Prometheus

      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      You know from what I heard Russ and it was true for me also, there did
      appear to be some prompting to accept it before finding eckankar in the
      lives of a lot of individuals.

      It definitely makes you wonder. For me it was something of great value
      that I experienced.

      I don't regret disconnecting from eckankar but like you I too wonder
      why these things happen before introduction.

      Could it be a type of witch craft? I had some experiences with local
      eckist that made me feel like some of them had powers to invade my
      personal space. Maybe it is done unbeknownst to us even before we know
      eckankar. Maybe there is an eck force that has nothing to do with love
      but can trick people into making the connection

      Once I was in, I had to fight against myself continually when I saw the
      unhealthy things that went on. Eckankar seemed like the source of true
      chaos instead of real truth. I struggled with the difference between
      what I saw and what I read on a constant basis and for a long time, I
      was willing to accept that I was not reading things right.

      I wish I could provide an answer for you.

      What I can say is that while what I experienced that prompted entry
      into eckankar seemed like a positive thing, my whole life seemed to
      become as chaotic as eckankar itself once I was hooked. For me it was a
      bad fit altogether except for some of the books.

      Question? If we can be influenced to believe the lies even when we
      become fully aware of the facts, is it not possible that the influence
      began before we even knew of eckankars existance? Could it be that
      being open to something new, we were given something that appeared to
      have a touch of magic in it, so that once we heard of eckankar we would
      naturally make the association?

      Sounds far fetched for sure.

      I would certainly like to hear what more experienced ex eckist have to
      say about it.

      Thank you Russ for raising the question. I wonder also.

      From: Russ Rodnick &lt;mailto:russrodnick%40yahoo.com&gt;
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley
      To: "mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com"
      &lt;mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com&gt;
      Date: Sunday, August 26, 2012, 5:42 PM

      whenever we talk about the idea that twitch creaated the lineage and
      the idea of the mahanta, my mind searches for a justification of an
      experience that occured to me one day in the early 80's. I was driving
      my taxicab one evening, late and a brilliant being of blue light
      appeared, for a few seconds by the side of the road.

      One idea of the Pole of the World comes ( I think) from Sufi literature.

      Something occured, and for me it has been like an affirmation of the
      existence of the mahanta. but if twitch created the mahanta, then what
      was it that I SAW?

      I believe there are developed beings, human but more than human.. I
      don't think they care one whit about ANY organized religion, preferring
      to work with individuals. I don't have any evidence per se, i just
      believe this.

      Food for thought, yes?

      Russ

      From: prometheus_973 &lt;mailto :prometheus_973%40yahoo.com&gt;
      To: mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 11:17 PM
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley

      Some additional thoughts:
      Twitchell created Rebazar in
      order to initiate himself as
      a Master. He created the
      "lineage" of EK Masters to
      validate Rebazar. However,
      PT made Rebazar not just
      a master, but a great master
      in order to succeed him and
      rise above him to become
      even greater. Thus, the more
      laudations he gave to Rebazar
      the more he gave to himself.
      Here's an interesting site to
      explore:

      http://dosmangoes.xanga.com/137397966/item/&lt; /A&gt;

      Prometheus

      prometheus wrote:
      &gt;
      &gt; Hello Etznab,
      &gt; It's interesting that Twit referred
      &gt; to these Bourchakoun Masters
      &gt; or Eagle-Eyed Adepts as "space
      &gt; visitors" when most, supposedly,
      &gt; originated on earth and that "soul
      &gt; travel" didn't actually involve physical
      &gt; travel. Maybe "Plane Jumpers or
      &gt; Shifters" would have been more
      &gt; apropos if in fact they did exist...
      &gt; which they don't!
      &gt;
      &gt; Early on, however, Paul, used
      &gt; the term "bi-location" to describe
      &gt; the out-of-body ekperience.
      &gt;
      &gt; Interesting, too, that Darwin
      &gt; Gross used the uncopyrighted
      &gt; term "Bourchakoun Master" to
      &gt; describe himself. Klemp overlooked
      &gt; that one!
      &gt;
      &gt; Yes, the "Blue-Eyed" adept version
      &gt; was because Paul had blue eyes.
      &gt; Thus, he had to do rewrites in order
      &gt; to taylor the material to fit himself
      &gt; and make it seem that he was above
      &gt; all other real religious "masters," as
      &gt; well as, his own creation of fictional
      &gt; ECK masters.
      &gt;
      &gt; So, Paul used both terms "Eagle-Eyed"
      &gt; and "Blue-Eyed" Adept to describe
      &gt; himself and to place himself above
      &gt; the others. Paul, later (Jan.1968),
      &gt; reenforced his position by having
      &gt; Rebazar (Paul himself) affirm that
      &gt; he was the Mahanta and above and
      &gt; beyond reproach by all critics. He
      &gt; was now the "spiritual" master in this
      &gt; "outer" world and in all "inner" worlds/
      &gt; planes. It was all very much a "retro-
      &gt; rewrite" to truth as we are, now, seeing
      &gt; in the current political realm with Romney.
      &gt;
      &gt; Prometheus
      &gt;
      &gt;
      &gt; etznab@ wrote:
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt; OK. This comes from a 1966 book;
      &gt; which would have been before the 1969
      &gt; &gt; Eckankar: The Key to Secret Worlds.
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt; ***
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt; "[....] These space visitors are generally members of the
      same order
      &gt; &gt; known to most of us as the Bourchakoun or Eagle-Eyed Adepts*
      An example
      &gt; &gt; is Rebazar Tarzs, who has shining coal black eyes that see
      like X-rays,
      &gt; &gt; penetrating anyone he gazes upon. Their Bible is called the
      &gt; &gt; Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, or the way of the Eternal. [....]" *They
      are also
      &gt; &gt; known in India as the Vairagis, the Mystic Adepts of the
      Himalayas. (&lt;
      &gt; &gt; in italics)
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt; - Based on Introduction to Eckankar, Chapter: SPACE TRAVEL BY
      &gt; &gt; OUT-OF-THE-BODY PROJECTION, 3rd-last paragraph (and * at
      bottom of
      &gt; &gt; page)
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt; ***
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt; So yes, it does look like Paul added "blue-eyed" (in at least
      one
      &gt; &gt; place) at a later date.
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----
      &gt; &gt; From: etznab &lt;etznab@&gt;
      &gt; &gt; To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      &gt; &gt; &lt;mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com&gt;
      &gt; &gt; Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 8:55 pm
      &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana
      Stanley
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt; Related link.
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt;
      http://survive2012.com/news/2008/02/thankys-cataclysm-for-blue-eyes-165.html
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----
      &gt; &gt; From: etznab etznab@
      &gt; &gt; To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      &gt; &gt; mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com
      &gt; &gt; Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 8:33 pm
      &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana
      Stanley
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt; Think I maybe found what Diane was referring to. This is from
      a 1969
      &gt; &gt; book; blue-eyed is also in the Second Printing 1988 version.
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt; "The entirety of the universes can be divided into four grand
      divisions
      &gt; &gt; according to the ancient order of adepts, whom we know as the
      &gt; &gt; Eshwar-Khanewale, or Vairagis, the blue-eyed adepts. Although
      not a
      &gt; &gt; blue-eyed being, Rebazar Tarzs, the Tibetan sage, is a member
      of this
      &gt; &gt; secret group. A large number of saviors, avatars, adepts, and
      others
      &gt; &gt; are listed in the Eshwar-Khanewale. [... .]"
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt;
      http://vielewelten.at/pdf_en/eckanar%20the%20key%20to%20secret%20worlds.pdf
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt; Is there another reference?
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----
      &gt; &gt; From: etznab etznab@
      &gt; &gt; To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      &gt; &gt; mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com
      &gt; &gt; Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 8:14 pm
      &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana
      Stanley
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt;
      &gt; &gt; My memory isn't good, but I think maybe the blue eyes was in
      reference
      &gt; &gt; to something about blue-eyed vs. eagle-eyed adepts. I could
      be wrong.
      &gt; &gt; This is just a guess from memory. I'm thinking that maybe one
      version
      &gt; &gt; of the story had "blue-eyed" where another version had
      "eagle-eyed".
      &gt; &gt; Does that sound familiar to anybody? I can't know for sure
      without
      &gt; &gt; finding the illustration where blue eyes are mentioned for
      Eck Masters.
      &gt; &gt; I am trying to substantiate what Diane said. Will see what I
      can find
      &gt; &gt; about this.

    • Janice Pfeiffer
      Exceptionally, good point etznab. Thank you very much.  My you guys are sharp!  ... From: etznab@aol.com Subject: Re:
      Message 40 of 40 , Sep 4, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Exceptionally, good point etznab. Thank you very much.  My you guys are sharp! 

        --- On Mon, 8/27/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

        From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, August 27, 2012, 7:27 PM

         
        "Can you give any ideas of why the vision of the man was shrouded in
        blue light which is most definitely sounds like an eckankar connection?"

        People in European cultures (at least) used to paint themselves blue
        before battle. Any idea why? I think it has to do with the afterlife.

        And in India (at least) numerous people and deities were pictured blue.
        It's not a new thing.

        http://www.hindu-blog.com/2009/06/hindu-gods-and-blue-color-why-hindu.html

        Egypt too.

        "Blue was symbolic of the sky and of water. In a cosmic sense, this
        extended its symbolism to the heavens and of the primeval floods. In
        both of these cases, blue took on a meaning of life and re-birth.
        [etc., etc.]"

        http://www.egyptianmyths.net/colors.htm

        In other spiritual traditions, as even with certain Eckankar writings,
        blue is a color associated with the "Mental" plane.

        Think about the largest objects visible by day, like the sky and the
        ocean. Blue is a major color that people are familiar with.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sun, Aug 26, 2012 10:38 pm
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley

         
        Hi Russ,
         
        The psychic sensitivity thing is great and I know it is what prompted
        me to have experiences with the lem and others in my early eck days. 
        But I am still struggling with the idea of the experiences such as you
        originally described that happens to a lot of people before knowing
        about eckankar.  Seeing what you wrote helped me remember that it was a
        pre-experience that indeed allowed eckankar to get me hooked and I
        realized, I couldn't explain mine either. 
         
        So I take it that you feel you may have seen a master of some kind and
        it really had nothing to do with eckankar even though you wanted to
        believe that it did?
         
        I really like the way you tied it all together in this second posting. 
        I can see how a person might be influenced on a conscious level.  I am
        still grappling with this thing that happened before even knowing about
        eckankar,  My mind rebels against the fact that it could be a
        reoccuring coinsidence and the idea that it is an influence on a
        unconscious level is intolerable.  To believe the latter, gives
        eckankar more power than I would wish them to have.
         
        Can you give any ideas of why the vision of the man was shrouded in
        blue light which is most definitely sounds like an eckankar
        connection? 
         
        Would you have associated this sighting with eckankar if the man was
        surrounded by white light?
         
        For me, before I found eckankar, not only was I seeing the blue light,
        I was buying light blue clothes almost exclusively and people started
        commenting that I almost always wore light blue. 
         
        Sorry if I am harping on this thing but I realized how what I
        experienced influenced me to be open to eckankar and I feel a strong
        need to understand how it could happen with out my conscious
        knowledge.  Maybe it insults my dignity a little. 
         
        I am not disturbed that I had the experiences but I am disturbed that
        they were so easily tied to eckankar.  I just can't get a grip on how
        that could be.  Did I absorb some eckankar culture with out having any
        experience with them?  At least enough to be susceptible.
         
        Again I am wondering if the org or people of eckankar have the ability
        to influenece others on an unconscious level before introduction to
        eckankar.  That sounds a bit nuts to me and I am not really comfortable
        with that idea but the fact is it happened with me, you and others. 
         
        Again and again the question comes back.  How can you have an
        experience seemingly related to something that you have had no
        experience with.  Why was I seeing a blue light and not a white light. 
        A white light I had seen before.  I even saw a golden light years
        before.  So why at that particular time was it a blue light? 
         
        I sure hope you ,Russ and others have more you can throw out to help me
        clarify this thing.  For me it is like an accident happened yet there
        are no real clues about how it happened.  Thanks for bearing with me. 
        I enjoyed your writing.  I just don't know how to use it for me.
         
         
         

        --- On Mon, 8/27/12, Russ Rodnick &lt;russrodnick@...&gt; wrote:

        From: Russ Rodnick &lt;russrodnick@...&gt;
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley
        To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com"
        &lt;EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com&gt;
        Date: Monday, August 27, 2012, 2:09 AM

          One thing that occurred to me is that in certain mental atmospheres,
        experiences of this kind are possible. A certain 'psychic sensitivity'
        happens and people can see and sense entities or energies of a
        meta-physical nature. Eckankar, knowing this may take advantage of this
        phenomenon, supplying people with a particular mythology, giving them a
        sense of personal connection which may have nothing whatsoever to do
        with the original phenom. I think the mental atmosphere is sustained
        bya state of being open to this type of experience. A receptivity to
        something 'more'.
         
        SO, interesting to me is that the process of 'opening' to somethng more
        can be done, without any organized religion but for me this requires a
        strong belief in my worthiness to live this way.And an awareness that
        the essence of self is non-physical and can live without the physical
        body,, inhabiting other planes of existence, now and after death of the
        PB.
        There I go  again...
        Russ

        From: "etznab@..." &lt;etznab@...&gt;
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 8:55 PM
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley

          "So, in short: Why do people have experiences that appear to be
        related
        to eckankar before hearing about eckankar."

        Just adding comments about this. The experiences before Eckankar
        (especially those of having met Eck Masters) is now one of the core
        "selling points" of Eckankar (in my opinion). However, I can't recall
        any experiences where the person(s) (Masters) that people met before
        Eckankar gave their names.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Janice Pfeiffer &lt;mailto:jepfeiffer%40sbcglobal.net&gt;
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        &lt;mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogro ups.com&gt;
        Sent: Sun, Aug 26, 2012 8:48 pm
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley

         
        Hi Prometheus,
         
        The dream experience I had was so real that I took it as a gift.  I
        value it still.
         
        What hooked me on eckankar is their claims concerning the spiritual
        significance of dreams.  Also, I was seeing the blue light.
         
        I felt a need to comment on Russ' question about his vision before
        finding eckankar and the fact that it seem to be a prerequisite to
        finding eckankar. 
         
        I heard other people talk about something happening that kind of set
        them up to accept eckankar.
         
        Can you give any insight to the fact that some people do seem to
        have an experience that is similar to what eck teachings describe
        before knowing anything about eckankar? 
         
        I like Russ, do wonder how this happens if we don't know anything about
        eckankar.
         
        Previously a discussion went on about what keeps people believing in
        eckankar even after hearing the truth.
         
        I didn't think about it during the previous discussion but it probably
        was the thing that brought me in and that held me in longer than it
        would have with out the pre-experience.
         
        I think this is a common occurence and a possible explanation of why we
        hang on even realizing the lies. I remember holding on to my
        pre-experience at times when I had doubts about the org.  It was like;
        to negate eckankar would negate the pre-experience.  So I stayed and
        thought I just didn't understand until finally, the stupid stuff I saw
        just couldn't be ignored any longer and I finally saw that it had
        nothing to do with me. 
         
        So, in short: Why do people have experiences that appear to be related
        to eckankar before hearing about eckankar.
         
        Thanks, As you can see, Russ' comments really got me worked up.
         

        --- On Mon, 8/27/12, prometheus_973
        &lt;mailto:prometheus_973%40yahoo.com&gt;
        wrote:

        From: prometheus_973 &lt;mailto:prometheus_973%40yahoo.com&gt;
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley
        To: mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, August 27, 2012, 12:25 AM

          Hello All,
        IMO most of the time we
        are simply setting ourselves
        up for whatever imagined
        experience our minds can
        create by tricking our eyes
        and other senses because
        we are so desperately needing
        and wanting to know about
        God and the mysteries of
        the universe. Are there real
        phenomena outside of the
        creations of the mind? Yes!
        But, is it related to a God?
        Maybe, maybe not. It all
        depends and is not for me
        to convince others either
        one way or another. If one
        has a real God experience
        then in what way and to
        what known purpose?

        I do know that Twitchell,
        Gross, Klemp, L. Ron Hubbard,
        and Joseph Smith (to name
        a few) are/were all liars and
        conmen and not "spiritual"
        due to their dishonesty and
        lack of morals and ethics.

        Religion, in the beginning,
        can inspire and prime the
        pump, so to speak, but then
        it (people and dogma) get
        in the way of the seeker
        where the group "path"
        becomes a trap for the weak
        minded via ego and delusion.
        Most religionists are programmed
        to see their doubts as tests
        while overlooking the possibility
        of it being a trap... either
        manmade or other worldly
        made. Because if we assume
        God exists then shouldn't
        we consider that the Devil
        or a Kal exists as well? Maybe
        not directly in a divine sense
        which means that most all
        religions have it wrong!

        The truth is that any "spiritual"
        experience will always be
        subjective even if we think
        there are objective factors
        having taken place.

        Prometheus

        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        You know from what I heard Russ and it was true for me also, there did
        appear to be some prompting to accept it before finding eckankar in the
        lives of a lot of individuals.

        It definitely makes you wonder. For me it was something of great value
        that I experienced.

        I don't regret disconnecting from eckankar but like you I too wonder
        why these things happen before introduction.

        Could it be a type of witch craft? I had some experiences with local
        eckist that made me feel like some of them had powers to invade my
        personal space. Maybe it is done unbeknownst to us even before we know
        eckankar. Maybe there is an eck force that has nothing to do with love
        but can trick people into making the connection

        Once I was in, I had to fight against myself continually when I saw the
        unhealthy things that went on. Eckankar seemed like the source of true
        chaos instead of real truth. I struggled with the difference between
        what I saw and what I read on a constant basis and for a long time, I
        was willing to accept that I was not reading things right.

        I wish I could provide an answer for you.

        What I can say is that while what I experienced that prompted entry
        into eckankar seemed like a positive thing, my whole life seemed to
        become as chaotic as eckankar itself once I was hooked. For me it was a
        bad fit altogether except for some of the books.

        Question? If we can be influenced to believe the lies even when we
        become fully aware of the facts, is it not possible that the influence
        began before we even knew of eckankars existance? Could it be that
        being open to something new, we were given something that appeared to
        have a touch of magic in it, so that once we heard of eckankar we would
        naturally make the association?

        Sounds far fetched for sure.

        I would certainly like to hear what more experienced ex eckist have to
        say about it.

        Thank you Russ for raising the question. I wonder also.

        From: Russ Rodnick &lt;mailto:russrodnick%40yahoo.com&gt;
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley
        To: "mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com"
        &lt;mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com&gt;
        Date: Sunday, August 26, 2012, 5:42 PM

        whenever we talk about the idea that twitch creaated the lineage and
        the idea of the mahanta, my mind searches for a justification of an
        experience that occured to me one day in the early 80's. I was driving
        my taxicab one evening, late and a brilliant being of blue light
        appeared, for a few seconds by the side of the road.

        One idea of the Pole of the World comes ( I think) from Sufi literature.

        Something occured, and for me it has been like an affirmation of the
        existence of the mahanta. but if twitch created the mahanta, then what
        was it that I SAW?

        I believe there are developed beings, human but more than human.. I
        don't think they care one whit about ANY organized religion, preferring
        to work with individuals. I don't have any evidence per se, i just
        believe this.

        Food for thought, yes?

        Russ

        From: prometheus_973 &lt;mailto :prometheus_973%40yahoo.com&gt;
        To: mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 11:17 PM
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana Stanley

        Some additional thoughts:
        Twitchell created Rebazar in
        order to initiate himself as
        a Master. He created the
        "lineage" of EK Masters to
        validate Rebazar. However,
        PT made Rebazar not just
        a master, but a great master
        in order to succeed him and
        rise above him to become
        even greater. Thus, the more
        laudations he gave to Rebazar
        the more he gave to himself.
        Here's an interesting site to
        explore:

        http://dosmangoes.xanga.com/137397966/item/&lt; /A&gt;

        Prometheus

        prometheus wrote:
        &gt;
        &gt; Hello Etznab,
        &gt; It's interesting that Twit referred
        &gt; to these Bourchakoun Masters
        &gt; or Eagle-Eyed Adepts as "space
        &gt; visitors" when most, supposedly,
        &gt; originated on earth and that "soul
        &gt; travel" didn't actually involve physical
        &gt; travel. Maybe "Plane Jumpers or
        &gt; Shifters" would have been more
        &gt; apropos if in fact they did exist...
        &gt; which they don't!
        &gt;
        &gt; Early on, however, Paul, used
        &gt; the term "bi-location" to describe
        &gt; the out-of-body ekperience.
        &gt;
        &gt; Interesting, too, that Darwin
        &gt; Gross used the uncopyrighted
        &gt; term "Bourchakoun Master" to
        &gt; describe himself. Klemp overlooked
        &gt; that one!
        &gt;
        &gt; Yes, the "Blue-Eyed" adept version
        &gt; was because Paul had blue eyes.
        &gt; Thus, he had to do rewrites in order
        &gt; to taylor the material to fit himself
        &gt; and make it seem that he was above
        &gt; all other real religious "masters," as
        &gt; well as, his own creation of fictional
        &gt; ECK masters.
        &gt;
        &gt; So, Paul used both terms "Eagle-Eyed"
        &gt; and "Blue-Eyed" Adept to describe
        &gt; himself and to place himself above
        &gt; the others. Paul, later (Jan.1968),
        &gt; reenforced his position by having
        &gt; Rebazar (Paul himself) affirm that
        &gt; he was the Mahanta and above and
        &gt; beyond reproach by all critics. He
        &gt; was now the "spiritual" master in this
        &gt; "outer" world and in all "inner" worlds/
        &gt; planes. It was all very much a "retro-
        &gt; rewrite" to truth as we are, now, seeing
        &gt; in the current political realm with Romney.
        &gt;
        &gt; Prometheus
        &gt;
        &gt;
        &gt; etznab@ wrote:
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt; OK. This comes from a 1966 book;
        &gt; which would have been before the 1969
        &gt; &gt; Eckankar: The Key to Secret Worlds.
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt; ***
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt; "[....] These space visitors are generally members of the
        same order
        &gt; &gt; known to most of us as the Bourchakoun or Eagle-Eyed Adepts*
        An example
        &gt; &gt; is Rebazar Tarzs, who has shining coal black eyes that see
        like X-rays,
        &gt; &gt; penetrating anyone he gazes upon. Their Bible is called the
        &gt; &gt; Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, or the way of the Eternal. [....]" *They
        are also
        &gt; &gt; known in India as the Vairagis, the Mystic Adepts of the
        Himalayas. (&lt;
        &gt; &gt; in italics)
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt; - Based on Introduction to Eckankar, Chapter: SPACE TRAVEL BY
        &gt; &gt; OUT-OF-THE-BODY PROJECTION, 3rd-last paragraph (and * at
        bottom of
        &gt; &gt; page)
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt; ***
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt; So yes, it does look like Paul added "blue-eyed" (in at least
        one
        &gt; &gt; place) at a later date.
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----
        &gt; &gt; From: etznab &lt;etznab@&gt;
        &gt; &gt; To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        &gt; &gt; &lt;mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com&gt;
        &gt; &gt; Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 8:55 pm
        &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana
        Stanley
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt; Related link.
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt;
        http://survive2012.com/news/2008/02/thankys-cataclysm-for-blue-eyes-165.html
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----
        &gt; &gt; From: etznab etznab@
        &gt; &gt; To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        &gt; &gt; mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com
        &gt; &gt; Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 8:33 pm
        &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana
        Stanley
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt; Think I maybe found what Diane was referring to. This is from
        a 1969
        &gt; &gt; book; blue-eyed is also in the Second Printing 1988 version.
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt; "The entirety of the universes can be divided into four grand
        divisions
        &gt; &gt; according to the ancient order of adepts, whom we know as the
        &gt; &gt; Eshwar-Khanewale, or Vairagis, the blue-eyed adepts. Although
        not a
        &gt; &gt; blue-eyed being, Rebazar Tarzs, the Tibetan sage, is a member
        of this
        &gt; &gt; secret group. A large number of saviors, avatars, adepts, and
        others
        &gt; &gt; are listed in the Eshwar-Khanewale. [... .]"
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt;
        http://vielewelten.at/pdf_en/eckanar%20the%20key%20to%20secret%20worlds.pdf
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt; Is there another reference?
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt; -----Original Message-----
        &gt; &gt; From: etznab etznab@
        &gt; &gt; To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        &gt; &gt; mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com
        &gt; &gt; Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 8:14 pm
        &gt; &gt; Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Art work Diana
        Stanley
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt;
        &gt; &gt; My memory isn't good, but I think maybe the blue eyes was in
        reference
        &gt; &gt; to something about blue-eyed vs. eagle-eyed adepts. I could
        be wrong.
        &gt; &gt; This is just a guess from memory. I'm thinking that maybe one
        version
        &gt; &gt; of the story had "blue-eyed" where another version had
        "eagle-eyed".
        &gt; &gt; Does that sound familiar to anybody? I can't know for sure
        without
        &gt; &gt; finding the illustration where blue eyes are mentioned for
        Eck Masters.
        &gt; &gt; I am trying to substantiate what Diane said. Will see what I
        can find
        &gt; &gt; about this.

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