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Is ECKANKAR a "true path"?

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  • Caesi
    From time to time I am read this, and read the most recent posts about comments about whether the path of ECK is real, and also very negative slanderous /
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 28 8:48 AM
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      From time to time I am read this, and read the most recent posts about comments about whether the "path" of ECK is real, and also very negative slanderous / libelous remarks against Harold Klemp, Paul Twitchell, l. Ron Hubbard, et.al.

      If the goal of the "group" here is to explore spiritual experiences and share, does it need to often take a negative "tone"? I believe this group serves a valuable purpose. But detouring off on tangents which could get it shut down, or create a legal "mess" for stating accusations against public figure -- unless you have SOLID PROOF - then post it for everyone to see - what is the point? Slander and libel are causable legal actions. Why bring that down on this group?

      There are so many other topics that can be discussed openly. Discussing the parallels between Paul's writings and where he possibly sourced the reference material - other paths and religions, other teachings - that educational and "helpful".

      Sometimes, I feel like some posters are "splitting hairs". Paul probably did come up with the word "Mahanta". I sense it derived from the word "Mantra". Earlier writings of Paul's talks about chanting the word "Mahanta". Does it really matter what the labels are called?

      Acknowledging Paul as a genius at self-branding and branding a new path - how many people could not only found a religious path (that is fairly easy), but grow it to the point the seedling actually began to grow at the pace ECKANKAR did? On some level the Universe wanted Paul to be successful.

      For me, I don't know about for you all, I find it easy to separate "the path" from the "corporation". Harold Klemp is the legal spiritual leader of the corporation. He is not the path. ECKANKAR path and organization will out-survive him. At best, he is a corporate chairman of the board who is a mouthpiece for the mission of the corporation. There will be another after him, etc. Most chairmen's of boards know more about the mission statement and how to carry it out, than their boards' directors, officers, and regional heads.

      It feels, to me, like we are splitting semantics...

      Do most of us agree there is "something"  - Inner world experiences tend to stick with us, like strong memories and have impact. TV shows from last night have a different type of stored memory.

      Even if you dislike the corporation of ECKANKAR and how it carries out its mission statement - - does it discount the path itself?

      Paul's research tracked similar experiences and beliefs across a number of spiritual paths and teachings. Where they all intersected - that was what he NAMED ECKANKAR. (perhaps altering the name Eckumkar). Many of the experiences, spiritual beings, etc. transcend across paths - and beyond earthworld languaging.

      Recently someone commented to me there are more HIs now. I countered with "Really? How can you be 'sure'?" I sure don't know. If spiritual teachers are across all paths and go back to the beginning of time, who is to say? And yes, Paul did brand a set for himself as ECK Masters. (Attempt at humor - do you think the being signed some sort of "exclusive contract" with Paul on the Inner planes?)

      For me, it's not a situation to 'throw out the baby with the bath water'. Paul delivered hope and acceptance to people who had experiences that either they couldn't explain, or were afraid from. It was a gift he gave to this world, and his writings live on.

      Spiritual Leaders still have human traits while in physical bodies. Undoubtedly, if we want to sit around and put them under a microscope we will find something we can judge them or anyone else for. Is that really how you see yourself growing spiritually - pointing our flaws in others trying to do their best?

      Where you put your spiritual attention you go. There is so much that can be learned from Paul and the others. Whatever you want to call your personal spiritual experience, I believe something exists we are all apart of on the other side.

      If you don't accept the Chairman of the Board of any corporation - pick any product - or service - do you stop using the product or service? Unless you are looking at the recent situation with Chik-a-Fil, most people focus on whether they need or want the product or service and couldn't name the Chairman of the Board of the corporation  - unless maybe it is Disney, Microsoft, or Apple.  Get over Harold Klemp. He's (personality Harold Klemp) is not stopping you from being on the Path - whatever you want to call it. He's a Chairman of a Board of a corporation. Only "you"  can stop your spiritual growth in whatever way you want to grow. Pick who you want to study with on the Inner - named or unnamed - and just do it.








    • prometheus_973
      Hello Caesi (aka Tigeroverflow; Paulji_teen), One of the problems, it seems, is that you only come in to read from time to time. You ve missed out on reading
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 28 3:51 PM
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        Hello Caesi (aka Tigeroverflow; Paulji_teen),
        One of the problems, it seems,
        is that you only come in to read
        "from time to time." You've missed
        out on reading more facts and
        evidence supporting our comments.
        I'll address some of your opinions
        below as (ME).



        Caesi tigeroverflow wrote:
        From time to time I am read this, and read the most recent posts about comments about whether the "path" of ECK is real, and also very negative slanderous / libelous remarks against Harold Klemp, Paul Twitchell, l. Ron Hubbard, et.al.

        ME: Twitchell was a liar and a conman,
        as was Gross, L. Ron Hubbard and as
        is Klemp. One can't get much more
        "negative" than these pseudo masters!
        Sure the Truth hurts the deluded
        sheep, such as yourself, but it's not
        slanderous nor libelous. Truth is Truth!


        If the goal of the "group" here is to explore spiritual experiences and share, does it need to often take a negative "tone"? I believe this group serves a valuable purpose. But detouring off on tangents which could get it shut down, or create a legal "mess" for stating accusations against public figure -- unless you have SOLID PROOF - then post it for everyone to see - what is the point? Slander and libel are causable legal actions. Why bring that down on this group?


        ME: Perhaps you really should read
        more. The introduction to this group
        spells it out rather clearly. Our goal
        is to discuss, educate, and share our
        EKperiences and point out the flaws
        in the dogma and various reasons as
        to why, in our opinion, Eckankar is
        a cult and scam. We don't fear "legal
        action" because public figures are
        fair game and we have more proof
        to disprove their claims than they
        do ours. Plus, we are the "victims"
        of this scam and were tricked and
        cheated out of thousands of dollars!
        Your fear tactics, which you have
        learned as a cultist (ECKist), don't
        work here. Besides, I really can't wait
        to hear testimony by Rebazar Tarzs
        and some of the other 500 year old,
        and older, ECK Masters who are still
        here on earth with "physical bodies."
        LOL!



        There are so many other topics that can be discussed openly. Discussing the parallels between Paul's writings and where he possibly sourced the reference material - other paths and religions, other teachings - that educational and "helpful".


        ME: This has been discussed and can
        be found in the Links and Files. It's
        documented proof that Twitchell
        Plagiarized much of his material from
        "The Path of the Masters." His previous
        comments about meeting Sudar/Kirpal
        in Paris, France (Paris, Kentucky) has
        also been noted. Thus, there was no
        first trip to India when PT was 15 years
        old. Therefore, the second trip and
        the meeting of Rebazar and the continued
        initiations 3-7 did not happen either.
        Nor a third trip where PT received the
        rest of his initiations 8-12 in circa
        1952.


        Sometimes, I feel like some posters are "splitting hairs". Paul probably did come up with the word "Mahanta". I sense it derived from the word "Mantra". Earlier writings of Paul's talks about chanting the word "Mahanta". Does it really matter what the labels are called?

        ME: Your not very aware are you?
        It's been pointed out that Twit
        found the definition of Mahanta
        in the book "The Holy Science"
        by Swami Sri Yukteswar of the
        Self-Realization Fellowship. On
        the introduction page (vi) it
        states that, In 1894, when this
        book was written" that the author,
        Swami Sri Yuketswar was "initiated
        into the Swami Order by the
        Mahanta (monastery head) of
        the Buddha Gaya, Bihar, and took
        the monastic name of Sri Yukestwar."
        Therefore, Twit lied about Rebazar
        and the other masters he created
        being the "Mahanta" since this
        title and position was created by
        Twitchell in 1968. Lies built upon
        more lies!


        Acknowledging Paul as a genius at self-branding and branding a new path - how many people could not only found a religious path (that is fairly easy), but grow it to the point the seedling actually began to grow at the pace ECKANKAR did? On some level the Universe wanted Paul to be successful.

        ME: Twit a Genius? That's a laugh.
        You're either deluded, stupid, or
        naive! Or, you might be as criminal
        as Twit and that's why you're protecting
        his PR image.


        For me, I don't know about for you all, I find it easy to separate "the path" from the "corporation". Harold Klemp is the legal spiritual leader of the corporation. He is not the path. ECKANKAR path and organization will out-survive him. At best, he is a corporate chairman of the board who is a mouthpiece for the mission of the corporation. There will be another after him, etc. Most chairmen's of boards know more about the mission statement and how to carry it out, than their boards' directors, officers, and regional heads.


        ME: That's part of your problem.
        The "Path" doesn't exist. Eckankar
        is a "religion" like Scientology and
        Mormonism and it's a business just
        like all religions. It's even named
        Eckankar, Religion of the Light and
        Sound of God.


        It feels, to me, like we are splitting semantics...

        ME: No, we aren't.
        BTW- That's "splitting hairs!"

        Do most of us agree there is "something" - Inner world experiences tend to stick with us, like strong memories and have impact. TV shows from last night have a different type of stored memory.

        Even if you dislike the corporation of ECKANKAR and how it carries out its mission statement - - does it discount the path itself?


        ME: Yes! It's dishonest and
        is bait and switch! The fact
        that I have to point that out
        to you is a "red flag" and is
        of concern regarding your
        critical thinking and decision
        making process.



        Paul's research tracked similar experiences and beliefs across a number of spiritual paths and teachings. Where they all intersected - that was what he NAMED ECKANKAR. (perhaps altering the name Eckumkar). Many of the experiences, spiritual beings, etc. transcend across paths - and beyond earthworld languaging.


        ME: Research! Don't make me laugh.
        Paul was a follower of Kirpal Singh
        of Radsoami Satsang for ten years.
        Kirpal returned PT's "The Tiger's Fang"
        manuscript to him in 1966. They had
        a falling out because Twit lied his arse
        off and embellished everything in the
        book. Kirpal, in the book, was in the
        earlier role that was later assigned to
        Rebazar. Even Klemp pointed out that
        at age 27, in 1935, that Twit was lying
        to get into Who's Who in Kentucky.


        Recently someone commented to me there are more HIs now. I countered with "Really? How can you be 'sure'?" I sure don't know. If spiritual teachers are across all paths and go back to the beginning of time, who is to say? And yes, Paul did brand a set for himself as ECK Masters. (Attempt at humor - do you think the being signed some sort of "exclusive contract" with Paul on the Inner planes?)


        ME: It's only logical that there would
        be more H.I.s now since not that many
        people are recruited or stay. Therefore,
        even with HK slowing initiations down,
        there would have to be more 5ths.


        For me, it's not a situation to 'throw out the baby with the bath water'. Paul delivered hope and acceptance to people who had experiences that either they couldn't explain, or were afraid from. It was a gift he gave to this world, and his writings live on.


        ME: It's not about throwing the
        baby out with the dirty bath water.
        The foundation of Eckankar is
        built upon lies (sand) and these
        lies have been accepted as truth
        and have become a corrupted
        part of people's dreams, thinking,
        and mindset in general.


        Spiritual Leaders still have human traits while in physical bodies. Undoubtedly, if we want to sit around and put them under a microscope we will find something we can judge them or anyone else for. Is that really how you see yourself growing spiritually - pointing our flaws in others trying to do their best?


        ME: You are deluded! You
        need religion don't you!
        Your weak and need to be
        led around by the nose by
        some fake master. What was
        Twit's promise? Self-Mastery
        and Spiritual Liberation in
        this lifetime? Yeah right!
        Early on, Paul wrote about
        The Cliff Hanger who was
        his own religion and a law
        unto himself. But, Eckists
        will never see that they are
        their own religion, as well,
        and don't need to be followers.
        Except, it always easier to
        follow than to think for yourself.



        Where you put your spiritual attention you go. There is so much that can be learned from Paul and the others. Whatever you want to call your personal spiritual experience, I believe something exists we are all apart of on the other side.


        ME: And, thus, you are going nowhere!
        You are living in a pretend world constructed
        by a liar and conman with a hodgepodge
        of mumbo-jumbo and subjective material.
        Why believe in others when you can write
        your own book by walking your own unique
        and individual path? You sound like a sheep
        seeking justification to remain in the flock
        of lower group consciousness. Besides, those
        "initiations" are phony. I'd like to see Klemp
        prove that they aren't!


        If you don't accept the Chairman of the Board of any corporation - pick any product - or service - do you stop using the product or service? Unless you are looking at the recent situation with Chik-a-Fil, most people focus on whether they need or want the product or service and couldn't name the Chairman of the Board of the corporation - unless maybe it is Disney, Microsoft, or Apple. Get over Harold Klemp. He's (personality Harold Klemp) is not stopping you from being on the Path - whatever you want to call it. He's a Chairman of a Board of a corporation. Only "you" can stop your spiritual growth in whatever way you want to grow. Pick who you want to study with on the Inner - named or unnamed - and just do it.


        ME: "Just do it?" Really?
        I don't wear Nikes or EK!
        You can't stand it that
        your heroes are being
        outed for being conmen
        and liars. You sound like
        EK apologist Doug Marman.

        No, we won't take our eye
        off the goal of telling the
        Truth about the Eckankar
        Cult.

        You're playing Klemp's role
        down by pretending that he
        hasn't made outrageous claims
        that he'll never be able to prove.
        Why is the "Mahanta" still having
        ECKists write IROs/HIROs via
        snail mail? Why will there be
        a 2012 ECK World Wide Seminar
        on the Physical and lowest Plane
        of Con?

        Why not, at least, have the H.I.
        Meeting on the "Inner" somewhere?
        But, no, it'll be in the main hall.
        BTW- Why is the fearless Mahanta
        (Klemp) still have people searched
        and going through Metal Detectors
        when he gives his Saturday Night
        Talk? That's not very detached is it!

        Prometheus
      • etznab@aol.com
        Do most of us agree there is something - Inner world experiences tend to stick with us, like strong memories and have impact. TV shows from last night have
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 28 4:19 PM
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          Do most of us agree there is "something" - Inner world experiences
          tend to stick with us, like strong memories and have impact. TV shows
          from last night have a different type of stored memory.

          ***

          Inner world experiences sounds like a broad term, including astral, and
          mental planes. And Soul Travel through the lower planes is what Paul
          Twitchell associated with Eckankar. Eck, on the other hand, was
          something beyond that. Eck was the Spirit of God.

          So I think it helps to be more specific concerning "inner experiences".

          One could probably say the same thing for the "Inner Master". There was
          a trinity mentioned in the Shariyat concerning Mahanta as vehicle for
          the Sugmad (God). It had to do with three aspects of the Sugmad, which
          were the three bodies of the Mahanta. This was spelled out on page 33
          of Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book Two.

          There was mentioned of the historical Mahanta (the Living Eck Master),
          there was a body of glory; the Eck, the Cosmic Spirit, and there was
          the primordial, the eternal Mahanta. These were basically called the
          three bodies of the Mahanta, or the three aspects of Sugmad (God).

          Most trinities have "God" and "Spirit", or the essence of God. But see,
          in the trinity of Eckankar there is "God", "Spirit" and a "Living Eck
          Master" (Master in a human body); which is also not so totally
          different from other religious schemes.

          So far as "Inner Experiences" are concerned I believe one has to
          consider the LEM has bodies on the various planes below the Soul Plane
          (according to Eckankar writings). Astral Body, Mental Body, etc.
          Besides that there is the Eck, or "Spirit" and also Sugmad, or "God".
          So when one has an "Inner Experience" it could be of an Astral, Casual,
          Mental, Soul, etc. nature. That is a very broad spectrum, IMO.

          About the historical Mahanta it was written:

          "[...] The historical Mahanta possesses the same qualities as the
          Divine One in Its second aspect, and manifests them as far as they can
          be manifested within the limitations of human nature within a definite
          point of history." (Page. 33 SKS Book One)

          ***

          In the early writings Paul Twitchell seemed (to me) to use the terms
          Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup interchangeably, but these are not the same
          term. The Nuri, or light body, is the astral body. The Eckankar Lexicon
          calls the Nuri Sarup (among other things) "The inner form of the Living
          ECK Master; his Light form. See also ASTRAL BODY."

          The Atma Sarup is the Soul Body which dwells on the fifth plane. Both
          the Eckankar Dictionary and Lexicon also mention "light body" in the
          definitions. The point being that Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup are not
          exactly the same thing.

          Isn't it interesting to know that Mahanta has a physical, astral,
          causal, mental and soul body just like everyone else? And that
          "Mahanta" is a broad term as well? It was once called the highest state
          of consciousness, but technically speaking this is relative, IMO. For
          example, How could the Living Eck Masters after Paul Twitchell NOT KNOW
          about his various plagiarisms of material by other authors that were
          instead attributed to Eck Masters? How could they NOT KNOW about the
          untruths in Paul Twitchell's biography? Better yet, How could the Board
          of Eckankar, the Eckankar lawyers and legal counsel, Clergy and
          Eckankar Members NOT KNOW the difference between a literary fiction and
          a literal fact? If all are following the "highest consciousness" would
          that not entail knowing and following the truth? Wherever that leads?

          Yes, a very broad spectrum are "Inner Experiences", IMHO. And when a
          single person acts as top authority concerning what "Inner Experiences"
          of others mean.

          Long ago it was "Inner Experiences" of Eckists who believed Rebazar
          Tarzs and Yaubl Sacabi, etc., had Harold Klemp removed. And that wasn't
          even a TV program!

          Example:

          [....] These excerpts (sic) from letters come from Eckists around the
          world:

          Very quietly, this was what was spoken from the Eck. "Harold has been
          removed." I asked by whom? "Yaubl Sacabi." Who is the replacement, I
          asked? "Darwin Gross."

          With love and blessing in Spirit,

          Sri Darwin Gross

          http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm9.html

          "According to testimony taken on May 31st, 1984, the former Living ECK
          Master, Darwin Gross, apparently claimed that in January his successor,
          Harold Klemp, was asked to step aside. Reportedly, it was Rebazar Tarz
          and Yaubl Sacabi who asked Harold Klemp to step aside."

          [Based on: Confessions of a God Seeker, A Journey to Higher
          Consciousness, p. 239] 

          What many people may not know is that these were not namely Darwin
          Gross experiences. They were given as experiences reported by chelas!

          Are these the type of inner world experiences that tend to stick with
          us, like strong memories and have impact?

          All I'm saying is that "Inner Experiences" is a broad spectrum topic.
          Also, that imagination has a negative side along with the positive. A
          negative side that can be abused. And at this point I'm not about to be
          abused by other people's imaginations. One way I know to prevent that
          is by doing my own research and NOT accepting on faith and trusting
          what other members of Eckankar say as if they are always somehow in
          league with the "highest consciousness". For all I know they could be
          in league with misguided imagination as well. The same goes for members
          of other religions as well (far as I'm concerned).

          *********

          If the goal of the "group" here is to explore spiritual experiences and
          share, does it need to often take a negative "tone"? I believe this
          group serves a valuable purpose. But detouring off on tangents which
          could get it shut down, or create a legal "mess" for stating
          accusations against public figure -- unless you have SOLID PROOF - then
          post it for everyone to see - what is the point? Slander and libel are
          causable legal actions. Why bring that down on this group?

          There are so many other topics that can be discussed openly. Discussing
          the parallels between Paul's writings and where he possibly sourced the
          reference material - other paths and religions, other teachings - that
          educational and "helpful".

          Sometimes, I feel like some posters are "splitting hairs". Paul
          probably did come up with the word "Mahanta". I sense it derived from
          the word "Mantra". Earlier writings of Paul's talks about chanting the
          word "Mahanta". Does it really matter what the labels are called?

          Acknowledging Paul as a genius at self-branding and branding a new path
          - how many people could not only found a religious path (that is fairly
          easy), but grow it to the point the seedling actually began to grow at
          the pace ECKANKAR did? On some level the Universe wanted Paul to be
          successful.

          For me, I don't know about for you all, I find it easy to separate "the
          path" from the "corporation". Harold Klemp is the legal spiritual
          leader of the corporation. He is not the path. ECKANKAR path and
          organization will out-survive him. At best, he is a corporate chairman
          of the board who is a mouthpiece for the mission of the corporation.
          There will be another after him, etc. Most chairmen's of boards know
          more about the mission statement and how to carry it out, than their
          boards' directors, officers, and regional heads.

          It feels, to me, like we are splitting semantics...

          Do most of us agree there is "something"  - Inner world experiences
          tend to stick with us, like strong memories and have impact. TV shows
          from last night have a different type of stored memory.

          Even if you dislike the corporation of ECKANKAR and how it carries out
          its mission statement - - does it discount the path itself?

          Paul's research tracked similar experiences and beliefs across a number
          of spiritual paths and teachings. Where they all intersected - that was
          what he NAMED ECKANKAR. (perhaps altering the name Eckumkar). Many of
          the experiences, spiritual beings, etc. transcend across paths - and
          beyond earthworld languaging.

          Recently someone commented to me there are more HIs now. I countered
          with "Really? How can you be 'sure'?" I sure don't know. If spiritual
          teachers are across all paths and go back to the beginning of time, who
          is to say? And yes, Paul did brand a set for himself as ECK Masters.
          (Attempt at humor - do you think the being signed some sort of
          "exclusive contract" with Paul on the Inner planes?)

          For me, it's not a situation to 'throw out the baby with the bath
          water'. Paul delivered hope and acceptance to people who had
          experiences that either they couldn't explain, or were afraid from. It
          was a gift he gave to this world, and his writings live on.

          Spiritual Leaders still have human traits while in physical bodies.
          Undoubtedly, if we want to sit around and put them under a microscope
          we will find something we can judge them or anyone else for. Is that
          really how you see yourself growing spiritually - pointing our flaws in
          others trying to do their best?

          Where you put your spiritual attention you go. There is so much that
          can be learned from Paul and the others. Whatever you want to call your
          personal spiritual experience, I believe something exists we are all
          apart of on the other side.

          If you don't accept the Chairman of the Board of any corporation - pick
          any product - or service - do you stop using the product or service?
          Unless you are looking at the recent situation with Chik-a-Fil, most
          people focus on whether they need or want the product or service and
          couldn't name the Chairman of the Board of the corporation  - unless
          maybe it is Disney, Microsoft, or Apple.  Get over Harold Klemp. He's
          (personality Harold Klemp) is not stopping you from being on the Path -
          whatever you want to call it. He's a Chairman of a Board of a
          corporation. Only "you"  can stop your spiritual growth in whatever way
          you want to grow. Pick who you want to study with on the Inner - named
          or unnamed - and just do it.
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Etznab and All, Let me add my two cents. etznab wrote: Do most of us agree there is something - Inner world experiences tend to stick with us, like
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 28 5:16 PM
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            Hello Etznab and All,
            Let me add my two cents.

            etznab wrote:
            Do most of us agree there is "something" - Inner world experiences
            tend to stick with us, like strong memories and have impact. TV shows
            from last night have a different type of stored memory.

            ME: Maybe. I don't know
            if I want to refer to these
            as "inner world experiences."
            Why? What's the difference?
            Seeing is done with eyes
            and without eyes... it's
            a balance and even an
            imbalance that can give
            meaning.


            ***

            Inner world experiences sounds like a broad term, including astral, and
            mental planes. And Soul Travel through the lower planes is what Paul
            Twitchell associated with Eckankar. Eck, on the other hand, was
            something beyond that. Eck was the Spirit of God.

            So I think it helps to be more specific concerning "inner experiences".


            ME: I don't. Besides Twit stole these
            terms from Sant Mat and other sources
            so why give him any credit for retelling
            subjective religious dogma that is, itself,
            questionable? And, why have different
            planes? Who says so? Prove it! Just because
            most people see a Blue light doesn't mean
            this is a different plane. Plus, the "Colors"
            of these "Inner planes" are associated
            with and are created on the physical via
            the light spectrum and seen by the human
            eye. Perhaps these are mere memories
            of color? To me it's silly to associate
            colors and numbers with something
            that is supposed to be "spiritual."



            One could probably say the same thing for the "Inner Master". There was
            a trinity mentioned in the Shariyat concerning Mahanta as vehicle for
            the Sugmad (God). It had to do with three aspects of the Sugmad, which
            were the three bodies of the Mahanta. This was spelled out on page 33
            of Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book Two.


            ME: That's the rewrite after 1968
            where PT introduced the Mahanta
            into the material he had previously
            plagiarized right?

            There was mentioned of the historical Mahanta (the Living Eck Master),
            there was a body of glory; the Eck, the Cosmic Spirit, and there was
            the primordial, the eternal Mahanta. These were basically called the
            three bodies of the Mahanta, or the three aspects of Sugmad (God).

            ME: How did a "monastery head"
            (Mahanta) acquire so much God
            knowledge? BTW-I read about these
            three aspects (un-tweaked) in The
            Path of the Masters. Twitchell was
            quite the conman and liar! And jokester!


            Most trinities have "God" and "Spirit", or the essence of God. But see,
            in the trinity of Eckankar there is "God", "Spirit" and a "Living Eck
            Master" (Master in a human body); which is also not so totally
            different from other religious schemes.

            So far as "Inner Experiences" are concerned I believe one has to
            consider the LEM has bodies on the various planes below the Soul Plane
            (according to Eckankar writings). Astral Body, Mental Body, etc.
            Besides that there is the Eck, or "Spirit" and also Sugmad, or "God".
            So when one has an "Inner Experience" it could be of an Astral, Casual,
            Mental, Soul, etc. nature. That is a very broad spectrum, IMO.

            About the historical Mahanta it was written:

            "[...] The historical Mahanta possesses the same qualities as the
            Divine One in Its second aspect, and manifests them as far as they can
            be manifested within the limitations of human nature within a definite
            point of history." (Page. 33 SKS Book One)

            ***

            In the early writings Paul Twitchell seemed (to me) to use the terms
            Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup interchangeably, but these are not the same
            term. The Nuri, or light body, is the astral body. The Eckankar Lexicon
            calls the Nuri Sarup (among other things) "The inner form of the Living
            ECK Master; his Light form. See also ASTRAL BODY."

            The Atma Sarup is the Soul Body which dwells on the fifth plane. Both
            the Eckankar Dictionary and Lexicon also mention "light body" in the
            definitions. The point being that Nuri Sarup and Atma Sarup are not
            exactly the same thing.

            Isn't it interesting to know that Mahanta has a physical, astral,
            causal, mental and soul body just like everyone else? And that
            "Mahanta" is a broad term as well? It was once called the highest state
            of consciousness, but technically speaking this is relative, IMO. For
            example, How could the Living Eck Masters after Paul Twitchell NOT KNOW
            about his various plagiarisms of material by other authors that were
            instead attributed to Eck Masters? How could they NOT KNOW about the
            untruths in Paul Twitchell's biography? Better yet, How could the Board
            of Eckankar, the Eckankar lawyers and legal counsel, Clergy and
            Eckankar Members NOT KNOW the difference between a literary fiction and
            a literal fact? If all are following the "highest consciousness" would
            that not entail knowing and following the truth? Wherever that leads?

            Yes, a very broad spectrum are "Inner Experiences", IMHO. And when a
            single person acts as top authority concerning what "Inner Experiences"
            of others mean.

            Long ago it was "Inner Experiences" of Eckists who believed Rebazar
            Tarzs and Yaubl Sacabi, etc., had Harold Klemp removed. And that wasn't
            even a TV program!

            Example:

            [....] These excerpts (sic) from letters come from Eckists around the
            world:

            Very quietly, this was what was spoken from the Eck. "Harold has been
            removed." I asked by whom? "Yaubl Sacabi." Who is the replacement, I
            asked? "Darwin Gross."

            With love and blessing in Spirit,

            Sri Darwin Gross

            http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm9.html

            "According to testimony taken on May 31st, 1984, the former Living ECK
            Master, Darwin Gross, apparently claimed that in January his successor,
            Harold Klemp, was asked to step aside. Reportedly, it was Rebazar Tarz
            and Yaubl Sacabi who asked Harold Klemp to step aside."

            [Based on: Confessions of a God Seeker, A Journey to Higher
            Consciousness, p. 239]Â

            What many people may not know is that these were not namely Darwin
            Gross experiences. They were given as experiences reported by chelas!

            Are these the type of inner world experiences that tend to stick with
            us, like strong memories and have impact?

            All I'm saying is that "Inner Experiences" is a broad spectrum topic.
            Also, that imagination has a negative side along with the positive. A
            negative side that can be abused. And at this point I'm not about to be
            abused by other people's imaginations. One way I know to prevent that
            is by doing my own research and NOT accepting on faith and trusting
            what other members of Eckankar say as if they are always somehow in
            league with the "highest consciousness". For all I know they could be
            in league with misguided imagination as well. The same goes for members
            of other religions as well (far as I'm concerned).

            *********

            If the goal of the "group" here is to explore spiritual experiences and
            share, does it need to often take a negative "tone"? I believe this
            group serves a valuable purpose. But detouring off on tangents which
            could get it shut down, or create a legal "mess" for stating
            accusations against public figure -- unless you have SOLID PROOF - then
            post it for everyone to see - what is the point? Slander and libel are
            causable legal actions. Why bring that down on this group?

            There are so many other topics that can be discussed openly. Discussing
            the parallels between Paul's writings and where he possibly sourced the
            reference material - other paths and religions, other teachings - that
            educational and "helpful".

            Sometimes, I feel like some posters are "splitting hairs". Paul
            probably did come up with the word "Mahanta". I sense it derived from
            the word "Mantra". Earlier writings of Paul's talks about chanting the
            word "Mahanta". Does it really matter what the labels are called?

            Acknowledging Paul as a genius at self-branding and branding a new path
            - how many people could not only found a religious path (that is fairly
            easy), but grow it to the point the seedling actually began to grow at
            the pace ECKANKAR did? On some level the Universe wanted Paul to be
            successful.

            For me, I don't know about for you all, I find it easy to separate "the
            path" from the "corporation". Harold Klemp is the legal spiritual
            leader of the corporation. He is not the path. ECKANKAR path and
            organization will out-survive him. At best, he is a corporate chairman
            of the board who is a mouthpiece for the mission of the corporation.
            There will be another after him, etc. Most chairmen's of boards know
            more about the mission statement and how to carry it out, than their
            boards' directors, officers, and regional heads.

            It feels, to me, like we are splitting semantics...

            Do most of us agree there is "something"Â - Inner world experiences
            tend to stick with us, like strong memories and have impact. TV shows
            from last night have a different type of stored memory.

            Even if you dislike the corporation of ECKANKAR and how it carries out
            its mission statement - - does it discount the path itself?

            Paul's research tracked similar experiences and beliefs across a number
            of spiritual paths and teachings. Where they all intersected - that was
            what he NAMED ECKANKAR. (perhaps altering the name Eckumkar). Many of
            the experiences, spiritual beings, etc. transcend across paths - and
            beyond earthworld languaging.

            Recently someone commented to me there are more HIs now. I countered
            with "Really? How can you be 'sure'?" I sure don't know. If spiritual
            teachers are across all paths and go back to the beginning of time, who
            is to say? And yes, Paul did brand a set for himself as ECK Masters.
            (Attempt at humor - do you think the being signed some sort of
            "exclusive contract" with Paul on the Inner planes?)

            For me, it's not a situation to 'throw out the baby with the bath
            water'. Paul delivered hope and acceptance to people who had
            experiences that either they couldn't explain, or were afraid from. It
            was a gift he gave to this world, and his writings live on.

            Spiritual Leaders still have human traits while in physical bodies.
            Undoubtedly, if we want to sit around and put them under a microscope
            we will find something we can judge them or anyone else for. Is that
            really how you see yourself growing spiritually - pointing our flaws in
            others trying to do their best?

            Where you put your spiritual attention you go. There is so much that
            can be learned from Paul and the others. Whatever you want to call your
            personal spiritual experience, I believe something exists we are all
            apart of on the other side.

            If you don't accept the Chairman of the Board of any corporation - pick
            any product - or service - do you stop using the product or service?
            Unless you are looking at the recent situation with Chik-a-Fil, most
            people focus on whether they need or want the product or service and
            couldn't name the Chairman of the Board of the corporation - unless
            maybe it is Disney, Microsoft, or Apple. Get over Harold Klemp. He's
            (personality Harold Klemp) is not stopping you from being on the Path -
            whatever you want to call it. He's a Chairman of a Board of a
            corporation. Only "you"Â can stop your spiritual growth in whatever way
            you want to grow. Pick who you want to study with on the Inner - named
            or unnamed - and just do it.
          • prometheus_973
            Hello All, I thought I d bring this post back to comment on the last statement: If you don t accept the Chairman of the Board of any corporation - pick any
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 2, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello All,
              I thought I'd bring this
              post back to comment
              on the last statement:

              "If you don't accept the Chairman of the Board of any corporation - pick any product - or service - do you stop using the product or service? Unless you are looking at the recent situation with Chik-a-Fil, most people focus on whether they need or want the product or service and couldn't name the Chairman of the Board of the corporation - unless maybe it is Disney, Microsoft, or Apple. Get over Harold Klemp. He's (personality Harold Klemp) is not stopping you from being on the Path - whatever you want to call it. He's a Chairman of a Board of a corporation. Only "you" can stop your spiritual growth in whatever way you want to grow. Pick who you want to study with on the Inner - named or unnamed - and just do it"

              ME: This comment about
              laying off any criticisms of
              Klemp because he's merely
              the CEO of Eckankar and
              doesn't represent the product
              is silly. If one follows this
              line of thought HK shouldn't
              be held personally responsible
              for false advertising or for
              the spiritual growth of Ekists.
              The truth is HK's "product"
              is ineffective and can be
              dangerous. It teaches self-
              hypnosis.

              And, what's the point of
              having a LEM or a Mahanta
              if he has nothing to do with
              an ECKist's spiritual growth...
              the product? After all, who
              approves of and hands out
              initiations? Aren't these
              associated with spiritual
              growth? If not, then, why
              not just resign from Eckankar
              and give up those coveted
              initiations and proceed upon
              the "path" without Klemp's
              help?

              What this EK apologist is
              refusing to see is that Klemp
              is actually selling himself
              as the "product." Everything
              EK is designed around the
              LEM/Mahanta and Klemp's
              Books, CDs, DVDs, Pictures,
              Brochures and Seminar talks.

              Anyway, this EKist has
              a solution. Just "Pick who
              you want to study with
              on the Inner - named
              or unnamed - and just
              do it." In other words
              just pretend and dream
              up anyone. It can be an
              "unnamed" or "unknown"
              master of some sort. Or,
              the Paulji fans can just
              look to him for guidance
              and imagine that he's
              helping them! Paul would
              love to know that his
              joke is being perpetuated.
              It's all quite delusional,
              but also quite easy and
              is a comfortable belief
              which doesn't require
              much thought or effort.
              It's no wonder Paul had
              a discourse named The
              Easy Way.

              Prometheus



              Caesi tigeroverflow wrote:
              >
              > From time to time I am read this, and read the most recent posts about comments about whether the "path" of ECK is real, and also very negative slanderous / libelous remarks against Harold Klemp, Paul Twitchell, l. Ron Hubbard, et.al.
              >
              > If the goal of the "group" here is to explore spiritual experiences and share, does it need to often take a negative "tone"? I believe this group serves a valuable purpose. But detouring off on tangents which could get it shut down, or create a legal "mess" for stating accusations against public figure -- unless you have SOLID PROOF - then post it for everyone to see - what is the point? Slander and libel are causable legal actions. Why bring that down on this group?
              >
              > There are so many other topics that can be discussed openly. Discussing the parallels between Paul's writings and where he possibly sourced the reference material - other paths and religions, other teachings - that educational and "helpful".
              >
              > Sometimes, I feel like some posters are "splitting hairs". Paul probably did come up with the word "Mahanta". I sense it derived from the word "Mantra". Earlier writings of Paul's talks about chanting the word "Mahanta". Does it really matter what the labels are called?
              >
              > Acknowledging Paul as a genius at self-branding and branding a new path - how many people could not only found a religious path (that is fairly easy), but grow it to the point the seedling actually began to grow at the pace ECKANKAR did? On some level the Universe wanted Paul to be successful.
              >
              > For me, I don't know about for you all, I find it easy to separate "the path" from the "corporation". Harold Klemp is the legal spiritual leader of the corporation. He is not the path. ECKANKAR path and organization will out-survive him. At best, he is a corporate chairman of the board who is a mouthpiece for the mission of the corporation. There will be another after him, etc. Most chairmen's of boards know more about the mission statement and how to carry it out, than their boards' directors, officers, and regional heads.
              >
              > It feels, to me, like we are splitting semantics...
              >
              > Do most of us agree there is "something"  - Inner world experiences tend to stick with us, like strong memories and have impact. TV shows from last night have a different type of stored memory.
              >
              > Even if you dislike the corporation of ECKANKAR and how it carries out its mission statement - - does it discount the path itself?
              >
              > Paul's research tracked similar experiences and beliefs across a number of spiritual paths and teachings. Where they all intersected - that was what he NAMED ECKANKAR. (perhaps altering the name Eckumkar). Many of the experiences, spiritual beings, etc. transcend across paths - and beyond earthworld languaging.
              >
              > Recently someone commented to me there are more HIs now. I countered with "Really? How can you be 'sure'?" I sure don't know. If spiritual teachers are across all paths and go back to the beginning of time, who is to say? And yes, Paul did brand a set for himself as ECK Masters. (Attempt at humor - do you think the being signed some sort of "exclusive contract" with Paul on the Inner planes?)
              >
              > For me, it's not a situation to 'throw out the baby with the bath water'. Paul delivered hope and acceptance to people who had experiences that either they couldn't explain, or were afraid from. It was a gift he gave to this world, and his writings live on.
              >
              > Spiritual Leaders still have human traits while in physical bodies. Undoubtedly, if we want to sit around and put them under a microscope we will find something we can judge them or anyone else for. Is that really how you see yourself growing spiritually - pointing our flaws in others trying to do their best?
              >
              > Where you put your spiritual attention you go. There is so much that can be learned from Paul and the others. Whatever you want to call your personal spiritual experience, I believe something exists we are all apart of on the other side.
              >
              > If you don't accept the Chairman of the Board of any corporation - pick any product - or service - do you stop using the product or service? Unless you are looking at the recent situation with Chik-a-Fil, most people focus on whether they need or want the product or service and couldn't name the Chairman of the Board of the corporation  - unless maybe it is Disney, Microsoft, or Apple.  Get over Harold Klemp. He's (personality Harold Klemp) is not stopping you from being on the Path - whatever you want to call it. He's a Chairman of a Board of a corporation. Only "you"  can stop your spiritual growth in whatever way you want to grow. Pick who you want to study with on the Inner - named or unnamed - and just do it.
              >
            • Janice Pfeiffer
              I ve been a way.  I am catching up on posts.  I have only one thing to say about this question about Is eckankar a true path....   WAY TO GO PROMETHEUS! 
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 4, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                I've been a way.  I am catching up on posts.  I have only one thing to say about this question about Is eckankar a true path....
                 
                WAY TO GO PROMETHEUS!  With your words today, you have become my hero!  You have dispatched this fault finder with our group with alacrity.  Loved it!

                --- On Tue, 8/28/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is ECKANKAR a "true path"?
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, August 28, 2012, 10:51 PM

                 
                Hello Caesi (aka Tigeroverflow; Paulji_teen),
                One of the problems, it seems,
                is that you only come in to read
                "from time to time." You've missed
                out on reading more facts and
                evidence supporting our comments.
                I'll address some of your opinions
                below as (ME).

                Caesi tigeroverflow wrote:
                From time to time I am read this, and read the most recent posts about comments about whether the "path" of ECK is real, and also very negative slanderous / libelous remarks against Harold Klemp, Paul Twitchell, l. Ron Hubbard, et.al.

                ME: Twitchell was a liar and a conman,
                as was Gross, L. Ron Hubbard and as
                is Klemp. One can't get much more
                "negative" than these pseudo masters!
                Sure the Truth hurts the deluded
                sheep, such as yourself, but it's not
                slanderous nor libelous. Truth is Truth!

                If the goal of the "group" here is to explore spiritual experiences and share, does it need to often take a negative "tone"? I believe this group serves a valuable purpose. But detouring off on tangents which could get it shut down, or create a legal "mess" for stating accusations against public figure -- unless you have SOLID PROOF - then post it for everyone to see - what is the point? Slander and libel are causable legal actions. Why bring that down on this group?

                ME: Perhaps you really should read
                more. The introduction to this group
                spells it out rather clearly. Our goal
                is to discuss, educate, and share our
                EKperiences and point out the flaws
                in the dogma and various reasons as
                to why, in our opinion, Eckankar is
                a cult and scam. We don't fear "legal
                action" because public figures are
                fair game and we have more proof
                to disprove their claims than they
                do ours. Plus, we are the "victims"
                of this scam and were tricked and
                cheated out of thousands of dollars!
                Your fear tactics, which you have
                learned as a cultist (ECKist), don't
                work here. Besides, I really can't wait
                to hear testimony by Rebazar Tarzs
                and some of the other 500 year old,
                and older, ECK Masters who are still
                here on earth with "physical bodies."
                LOL!


                There are so many other topics that can be discussed openly. Discussing the parallels between Paul's writings and where he possibly sourced the reference material - other paths and religions, other teachings - that educational and "helpful".

                ME: This has been discussed and can
                be found in the Links and Files. It's
                documented proof that Twitchell
                Plagiarized much of his material from
                "The Path of the Masters." His previous
                comments about meeting Sudar/Kirpal
                in Paris, France (Paris, Kentucky) has
                also been noted. Thus, there was no
                first trip to India when PT was 15 years
                old. Therefore, the second trip and
                the meeting of Rebazar and the continued
                initiations 3-7 did not happen either.
                Nor a third trip where PT received the
                rest of his initiations 8-12 in circa
                1952.

                Sometimes, I feel like some posters are "splitting hairs". Paul probably did come up with the word "Mahanta". I sense it derived from the word "Mantra". Earlier writings of Paul's talks about chanting the word "Mahanta". Does it really matter what the labels are called?

                ME: Your not very aware are you?
                It's been pointed out that Twit
                found the definition of Mahanta
                in the book "The Holy Science"
                by Swami Sri Yukteswar of the
                Self-Realization Fellowship. On
                the introduction page (vi) it
                states that, In 1894, when this
                book was written" that the author,
                Swami Sri Yuketswar was "initiated
                into the Swami Order by the
                Mahanta (monastery head) of
                the Buddha Gaya, Bihar, and took
                the monastic name of Sri Yukestwar."
                Therefore, Twit lied about Rebazar
                and the other masters he created
                being the "Mahanta" since this
                title and position was created by
                Twitchell in 1968. Lies built upon
                more lies!


                Acknowledging Paul as a genius at self-branding and branding a new path - how many people could not only found a religious path (that is fairly easy), but grow it to the point the seedling actually began to grow at the pace ECKANKAR did? On some level the Universe wanted Paul to be successful.

                ME: Twit a Genius? That's a laugh.
                You're either deluded, stupid, or
                naive! Or, you might be as criminal
                as Twit and that's why you're protecting
                his PR image.

                For me, I don't know about for you all, I find it easy to separate "the path" from the "corporation". Harold Klemp is the legal spiritual leader of the corporation. He is not the path. ECKANKAR path and organization will out-survive him. At best, he is a corporate chairman of the board who is a mouthpiece for the mission of the corporation. There will be another after him, etc. Most chairmen's of boards know more about the mission statement and how to carry it out, than their boards' directors, officers, and regional heads.

                ME: That's part of your problem.
                The "Path" doesn't exist. Eckankar
                is a "religion" like Scientology and
                Mormonism and it's a business just
                like all religions. It's even named
                Eckankar, Religion of the Light and
                Sound of God.

                It feels, to me, like we are splitting semantics...

                ME: No, we aren't.
                BTW- That's "splitting hairs!"

                Do most of us agree there is "something" - Inner world experiences tend to stick with us, like strong memories and have impact. TV shows from last night have a different type of stored memory.

                Even if you dislike the corporation of ECKANKAR and how it carries out its mission statement - - does it discount the path itself?

                ME: Yes! It's dishonest and
                is bait and switch! The fact
                that I have to point that out
                to you is a "red flag" and is
                of concern regarding your
                critical thinking and decision
                making process.

                Paul's research tracked similar experiences and beliefs across a number of spiritual paths and teachings. Where they all intersected - that was what he NAMED ECKANKAR. (perhaps altering the name Eckumkar). Many of the experiences, spiritual beings, etc. transcend across paths - and beyond earthworld languaging.

                ME: Research! Don't make me laugh.
                Paul was a follower of Kirpal Singh
                of Radsoami Satsang for ten years.
                Kirpal returned PT's "The Tiger's Fang"
                manuscript to him in 1966. They had
                a falling out because Twit lied his arse
                off and embellished everything in the
                book. Kirpal, in the book, was in the
                earlier role that was later assigned to
                Rebazar. Even Klemp pointed out that
                at age 27, in 1935, that Twit was lying
                to get into Who's Who in Kentucky.


                Recently someone commented to me there are more HIs now. I countered with "Really? How can you be 'sure'?" I sure don't know. If spiritual teachers are across all paths and go back to the beginning of time, who is to say? And yes, Paul did brand a set for himself as ECK Masters. (Attempt at humor - do you think the being signed some sort of "exclusive contract" with Paul on the Inner planes?)

                ME: It's only logical that there would
                be more H.I.s now since not that many
                people are recruited or stay. Therefore,
                even with HK slowing initiations down,
                there would have to be more 5ths.

                For me, it's not a situation to 'throw out the baby with the bath water'. Paul delivered hope and acceptance to people who had experiences that either they couldn't explain, or were afraid from. It was a gift he gave to this world, and his writings live on.

                ME: It's not about throwing the
                baby out with the dirty bath water.
                The foundation of Eckankar is
                built upon lies (sand) and these
                lies have been accepted as truth
                and have become a corrupted
                part of people's dreams, thinking,
                and mindset in general.


                Spiritual Leaders still have human traits while in physical bodies. Undoubtedly, if we want to sit around and put them under a microscope we will find something we can judge them or anyone else for. Is that really how you see yourself growing spiritually - pointing our flaws in others trying to do their best?

                ME: You are deluded! You
                need religion don't you!
                Your weak and need to be
                led around by the nose by
                some fake master. What was
                Twit's promise? Self-Mastery
                and Spiritual Liberation in
                this lifetime? Yeah right!
                Early on, Paul wrote about
                The Cliff Hanger who was
                his own religion and a law
                unto himself. But, Eckists
                will never see that they are
                their own religion, as well,
                and don't need to be followers.
                Except, it always easier to
                follow than to think for yourself.

                Where you put your spiritual attention you go. There is so much that can be learned from Paul and the others. Whatever you want to call your personal spiritual experience, I believe something exists we are all apart of on the other side.

                ME: And, thus, you are going nowhere!
                You are living in a pretend world constructed
                by a liar and conman with a hodgepodge
                of mumbo-jumbo and subjective material.
                Why believe in others when you can write
                your own book by walking your own unique
                and individual path? You sound like a sheep
                seeking justification to remain in the flock
                of lower group consciousness. Besides, those
                "initiations" are phony. I'd like to see Klemp
                prove that they aren't!

                If you don't accept the Chairman of the Board of any corporation - pick any product - or service - do you stop using the product or service? Unless you are looking at the recent situation with Chik-a-Fil, most people focus on whether they need or want the product or service and couldn't name the Chairman of the Board of the corporation - unless maybe it is Disney, Microsoft, or Apple. Get over Harold Klemp. He's (personality Harold Klemp) is not stopping you from being on the Path - whatever you want to call it. He's a Chairman of a Board of a corporation. Only "you" can stop your spiritual growth in whatever way you want to grow. Pick who you want to study with on the Inner - named or unnamed - and just do it.

                ME: "Just do it?" Really?
                I don't wear Nikes or EK!
                You can't stand it that
                your heroes are being
                outed for being conmen
                and liars. You sound like
                EK apologist Doug Marman.

                No, we won't take our eye
                off the goal of telling the
                Truth about the Eckankar
                Cult.

                You're playing Klemp's role
                down by pretending that he
                hasn't made outrageous claims
                that he'll never be able to prove.
                Why is the "Mahanta" still having
                ECKists write IROs/HIROs via
                snail mail? Why will there be
                a 2012 ECK World Wide Seminar
                on the Physical and lowest Plane
                of Con?

                Why not, at least, have the H.I.
                Meeting on the "Inner" somewhere?
                But, no, it'll be in the main hall.
                BTW- Why is the fearless Mahanta
                (Klemp) still have people searched
                and going through Metal Detectors
                when he gives his Saturday Night
                Talk? That's not very detached is it!

                Prometheus


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