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Re: An Interesting Article That Applies to the "Path" of Eckankar

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Non eckchains, Thanks for the opines. I, also, liked the quote: Don t talk of different religions. The one reality is everywhere, not just in a Hindu,
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 26, 2012
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      Hello Non eckchains,
      Thanks for the opines.
      I, also, liked the quote:

      "Don't talk of different
      religions. The one reality
      is everywhere, not just
      in a Hindu, or a Muslim,
      or anywhere else!

      Realize: your awareness
      is the truth about God.

      - Lalla 14th Century North Indian mystic"

      It's interesting to see how
      many renown people, even
      today, plagiarize and/or
      use "ghost writers" in order
      to save time and effort.

      Twitchell, certainly, wasn't
      the first plagiarist and won't
      be the last. I don't think
      PT used ghost writers, but
      Klemp comes close to doing
      so because he publishes
      the articles mailed to him
      using pseudonyms for these
      Eckists, but under his byline.

      These Eckists give Klemp the
      ideas for his articles and, then,
      present the embellished filler
      which he merely recycles and
      comments/tweaks upon. So,
      in a way, HK's fans are also
      his ghost writers. The use of
      pseudonyms make them ghost
      like. Therefore, HK could have
      Joan, Peter, or other select staff
      members, from time-to-time,
      write the "letters," supposedly,
      mailed in to the ESC. I've noticed,
      too, that with certain questions
      submitted in these ECK Pubs
      that, at times, no name or even
      initials are given for the person
      submitting the questions. It
      appears, to me, that if Klemp
      wants to address a specific
      topic, which seems stuck in
      his craw, that he'll pretend he's
      an EKist and ask himself the
      question in order to give himself
      a platform to rebuke his H.I.s

      But, what should we expect?!
      Eckankar is similar to other
      cults with their secrecy and
      dishonestly in order to fulfill
      the agendas and goals of the
      hierarchy and/or the sole owner
      of the group like Klemp is
      to Eckankar.

      And, Eckankar is not unlike
      Scientology or Mormonism
      in that there are many nice
      people that have become
      fooled and deluded, or more
      deluded, by the lies and
      propaganda which has brain-
      washed them over the years.
      Plus, all three of these religions
      were founded by liars and
      conmen. Paul Twitchell,
      L. Ron Hubbard, and Joseph
      Smith... all were psychotic!

      Plus, Religion becomes not
      only a security blanket but,
      also, a means for the introverted
      masses to socialize while
      the extroverts climb the
      hierarchical ladder to even
      greater ego trips with power
      and titles and initiations
      to bind them, even more
      so, to the illusion of "spirituality."
      Membership in a religion
      is controlled by one clever/
      deceitful individual in charge.

      And, "consciousness" is
      limited by rules, scripture,
      expected behaviour, organizational
      structure, tradition, busy
      work, "acceptance" and a
      group consciousness of
      naive, and closed minded
      conformists who view themselves
      and their religion as "unique"
      and as the highest path to
      God.

      Prometheus

      "Non" eckchains wrote:
      I used to read Castaneda's books and found them interesting, but just because
      they were written by an anthropologist doesn't mean that they are still probably
      fiction. As I read the quotes of don Juan now, it seems obvious that this is not
      how even a teacher or professor or know it all would speak in person. An actor
      in a movie would have a hard time reciting all of that non stop without at some
      point eliciting, well laughter. I used to take books very seriously, and that
      there must be some level of Authority, otherwise it would never have gotten
      published. right? That's why Twit was able to get away with his plagiarism,
      because those old books were written with an air of Authority, even if there was
      not a shred of truth or evidence to it. He could copy and paste as much as he
      wanted to and quote fake eck masters spouting their mouths off, but it was after
      all just Science Fiction. Hubbard did the same thing with Scientology. Make it
      SEEM scientific or empirical or experiential and for many that is "proof"
      enough.

      Anyway, I think there is some truth here and there, but I am literally unable
      anymore to accept anything as So just because it is stated as So. Just My
      opinion. Sure we are programed by our cultural conditioning, but we are also
      biological material beings and savants when it comes to imagination and
      language, and utterly curious, as well as really dumb. Oh how I long for being
      OK with not knowing it all. And I am also very curious and won't stop wanting to
      learn more and more.....

      I like this from the same web page:

      Don't talk of different religions.
      The one reality is everywhere,
      not just in a Hindu, or a Muslim,
      or anywhere else! Realize:
      your awareness is
      the truth about God.

      - Lalla 14th Century North Indian mystic

      Non ; )

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
      <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > This is from the link in my
      > previous post.
      >
      > "A man of knowledge is one
      > who has followed truthfully
      > the hardships of learning,
      > a man who has, without rushing
      > or without faltering, gone
      > as far as he can in unraveling
      > the secrets of power and
      > knowledge. To become a
      > man of knowledge one must
      > challenge and defeat his
      > four natural enemies.
      >
      > When a man starts to learn,
      > he is never clear about his
      > objectives. His purpose is
      > faulty; his intent is vague.
      >
      > (1) He hopes for rewards
      > that will never materialize
      > for he knows nothing of
      > the hardships of learning.
      >
      > He slowly begins to learn--
      > bit by bit at first, then in
      > big chunks. And his thoughts
      > soon clash. What he learns
      > is never what he pictured,
      > or imagined, and so he
      > begins to be afraid. Learning
      > is never what one expects.
      >
      > Every step of learning is
      > a new task, and the fear
      > the man is experiencing
      > begins to mount mercilessly,
      > unyieldingly. His purpose
      > becomes a battlefield.
      > And thus he has stumbled
      > upon the first of his natural
      > enemies: fear!
      >
      > A terrible enemy--treacherous,
      > and difficult to overcome.
      > It remains concealed at every
      > turn of the way, prowling,
      > waiting. And if the man, terrified
      > in its presence, runs away,
      > his enemy will have put an
      > end to his quest and he will
      > never learn. He will never
      > become a man of knowledge.
      > He will perhaps be a bully,
      > or a harmless, scared man;
      > at any rate, he will be a
      > defeated man. His first enemy
      > will have put an end to his
      > cravings. It is not possible
      > for a man to abandon himself
      > to fear for years, then finally
      > conquer it. If he gives in to
      > fear he will never conquer it,
      > because he will shy away from
      > learning and never try again.
      >
      > But if he tries to learn for years
      > in the midst of his fear, he
      > will eventually conquer it
      > because he will never have
      > really abandoned himself
      > to it. Therefore he must not
      > run away. He must defy his
      > fear, and in spite of it he
      > must take the next step in
      > learning, and the next, and
      > the next.
      >
      > He must be fully afraid, and
      > yet he must not stop. That
      > is the rule! And a moment
      > will come when his first enemy
      > retreats. The man begins to
      > feel sure of himself. His intent
      > becomes stronger. Learning
      > is no longer a terrifying task.
      > When this joyful moment comes,
      > the man can say without hesitation
      > that he has defeated his first
      > natural enemy. It happens little
      > by little, and yet the fear is
      > vanquished suddenly and fast.
      >
      > Once a man has vanquished
      > fear, he is free from it for the
      > rest of his life because, instead
      > of fear, he has acquired clarity--
      > a clarity of mind which erases
      > fear. By then a man knows his
      > desires; he knows how to satisfy
      > those desires. He can anticipate
      > the new steps of learning and
      > a sharp clarity surrounds everything.
      >
      > The man feels that nothing is
      > concealed. And thus he has
      > encountered his second enemy:
      > (2) Clarity! That clarity of mind,
      > which is so hard to obtain,
      > dispels fear, but also blinds.
      > It forces the man never to doubt
      > himself. It gives him the assurance
      > he can do anything he pleases,
      > for he sees clearly into everything.
      > And he is courageous because
      > he is clear, and he stops at nothing
      > because he is clear. But all that
      > is a mistake; it is like something
      > incomplete.
      >
      >
      > If the man yields to this make-
      > believe power, he has succumbed
      > to his second enemy and will
      > be patient when he should rush.
      > And he will fumble with learning
      > until he winds up incapable of
      > learning anything more. His second
      > enemy has just stopped him cold
      > from trying to become a man of
      > knowledge. Instead, the man may
      > turn into a buoyant warrior, or
      > a clown. Yet the clarity for which
      > he has paid so dearly will never
      > change to darkness and fear again.
      > He will be clear as long as he lives,
      > but he will no longer learn, or
      > yearn for, anything. He must do
      > what he did with fear: he must
      > defy his clarity and use it only
      > to see, and wait patiently and
      > measure carefully before taking
      > new steps; he must think, above
      > all, that his clarity is almost
      > a mistake.
      >
      > And a moment will come when
      > he will understand that his clarity
      > was only a point before his eyes.
      > And thus he will have overcome
      > his second enemy, and will arrive
      > at a position where nothing can
      > harm him anymore.
      >
      > This will not be a mistake. It will
      > not be only a point before his
      > eyes. It will be true power. He
      > will know at this point that the
      > power he has been pursuing for
      > so long is finally his. He can do
      > with it whatever he pleases. His
      > ally is at his command. His wish
      > is the rule. He sees all that is
      > around him. But he has also
      > come across his third enemy:
      > (3) Power! Power is the strongest
      > of all enemies. And naturally
      > the easiest thing to do is to
      > give in; after all, the man is
      > truly invincible. He commands;
      > he begins by taking calculated
      > risks, andends in making rules,
      > because he is a master.
      >
      > A man at this stage hardly notices
      > his third enemy closing in on him.
      > And suddenly, without knowing,
      > he will certainly have lost the battle.
      > His enemy will have turned him
      > into a cruel, capricious man, but
      > he will never lose his clarity or
      > his power. A man who is defeated
      > by power dies without really knowing
      > how to handle it. Power is only
      > a burden upon his fate. Such
      > a man has no command over
      > himself, and cannot tell when
      > or how to use his power.
      >
      > Once one of these enemies
      > overpowers a man there is
      > nothing he can do. It is not
      > possible, for instance, that
      > a man who is defeated by
      > power may see his error and
      > mend his ways. Once a man
      > gives in he is through. If,
      > however, he is temporarily
      > blinded by power, and then
      > refuses it, his battle is still
      > on. That means he is still
      > trying to become a man of
      > knowledge. A man is defeated
      > only when he no longer tries,
      > and abandons himself. He
      > has to come to realize that
      > the power he has seemingly
      > conquered is in reality never
      > his. He must keep himself
      > in line at all times, handling
      > carefully and faithfully all
      > that he has learned. If he
      > can see that clarity and
      > power, without his control
      > over himself, are worse than
      > mistakes, he will reach
      > a point where everything
      > is held in check. He will
      > know then when and how
      > to use his power.
      >
      > And thus he will have
      > defeated his third enemy.
      > The man will be, by then,
      > at the end of his journey
      > of learning, and almost
      > without warning he will
      > come upon the last of his
      > enemies: (4.) Old age!
      > This enemy is the cruelest
      > of all, the one he won't
      > be able to defeat completely,
      > but only fight away.
      >
      > This is the time when a
      > man has no more fears,
      > no more impatient clarity
      > of mind--a time when all
      > his power is in check, but
      > also the time when he has
      > an unyielding desire to rest.
      >
      > If he gives in totally to his
      > desire to lie down and forget,
      > if he soothes himself in
      > tiredness, he will have lost
      > his last round, and his enemy
      > will cut him down into a
      > feeble old creature. His
      > desire to retreat will overrule
      > all his clarity, his power,
      > and his knowledge.
      >
      > But if the man sloughs off
      > his tiredness, and lives his
      > fate though, he can then be
      > called a man of knowledge,
      > if only for the brief moment
      > when he succeeds in fighting
      > off his last, invincible enemy.
      > That moment of clarity, power,
      > and knowledge is enough.
      >
      > Anything is one of a million
      > paths. Therefore you must
      > always keep in mind that a
      > path is only a path; if you feel
      > you should not follow it, you
      > must not stay with it under
      > any conditions.
      >
      > To have such clarity you must
      > lead a disciplined life. Only
      > then will you know that any
      > path is only a path and there
      > is no affront, to oneself or to
      > others, in dropping it if that
      > is what your heart tells you to
      > do.
      >
      > But your decision to keep on
      > the path or to leave it must
      > be free of fear or ambition.
      >
      > I warn you. Look at every
      > path closely and deliberately.
      > Try it as many times as you
      > think necessary. This question
      > is one that only a very old
      > man asks. Does this path have
      > a heart?
      >
      > All paths are the same: they
      > lead nowhere. They are paths
      > going through the bush, or
      > into the bush. In my own life
      > I could say I have traversed
      > long long paths, but I am not
      > anywhere.
      >
      > Does this path have a heart?
      > If it does, the path is good;
      > if it doesn't, it is of no use.
      >
      > Both paths lead nowhere;
      > but one has a heart, the
      > other doesn't. One makes
      > for a joyful journey; as long
      > as you follow it, you are one
      > with it. The other will make
      > you curse your life. One makes
      > you strong; the other weakens
      > you.
      >
      > Before you embark on any path
      > [once again] ask the question:
      >
      > Does this path have a heart?
      >
      > If the answer is no, you will know
      > it, and then you must choose
      > another path. The trouble is
      > nobody asks the question; and
      > when a man finally realizes that
      > he has taken a path without a
      > heart, the path is ready to kill
      > him. At that point very few men
      > can stop to deliberate, and leave
      > the path. A path without a heart
      > is never enjoyable. You have to
      > work hard even to take it.
      >
      > On the other hand, a path with
      > heart is easy; it does not make
      > you work at liking it.
      >
      > I have told you that to choose
      > a path you must be free from
      > fear and ambition. The desire
      > to learn is not ambition. It is
      > our lot as men to want to know.
      >
      > The path without a heart will
      > turn against men and destroy
      > them. It does not take much
      > to die, and to seek death is
      > to seek nothing.
      >
      > For me there is only the traveling
      > on the paths that have a heart,
      > on any path that may have a heart.
      > There I travel, and the only worthwhile
      > challenge for me is to traverse
      > its full length. And there I travel--
      > looking, looking, breathlessly.
      >
      > 1 fear = what we experience
      > clashes on close examination
      > with our thoughts. What he
      > learns is never what he pictured,
      > or imagined, and so he begins
      > to be afraid. (fear is the mind killer!)
      >
      > 2 Clarity = clarity of mind which
      > erases fear. By then a man knows
      > his desires; he knows how to
      > satisfy those desires. He can
      > anticipate the new steps of learning
      > and a sharp clarity surrounds
      > everything. The man feels that
      > nothing is concealed.
      >
      > 3 power = He has to come to
      > realize that the power he has
      > seemingly conquered is in reality
      > never his. He must keep himself
      > in line at all times, handling
      > carefully and faithfully all that
      > he has learned. If he can see
      > that clarity and power, without
      > his control over himself, are
      > worse than mistakes, he will
      > reach a point where everything
      > is held in check. He will know
      > then when and how to use his
      > power. And thus he will have
      > defeated his third enemy
      >
      > 4. OLd AGE= This is the time
      > when a man has no more fears,
      > no more impatient clarity of mind--
      > a time when all his power is in
      > check, but also the time when
      > he has an unyielding desire to
      > rest. If he gives in totally to his
      > desire to lie down and forget,
      > if he soothes himself in tiredness,
      > he will have lost his last round,
      > and his enemy will cut him down
      > into a feeble old creature. His
      > desire to retreat will overrule
      > all his clarity, his power, and
      > his knowledge." [end]
    • Non
      Thanks Prometheus, as far as psychotic religious leaders and the introverted followers, I think that often the followers bring their own bias, prejudice and
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 27, 2012
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        Thanks Prometheus,

        as far as psychotic religious leaders and the introverted followers, I think that often the followers bring their own bias, prejudice and even hatred to whom they follow. They are looking for someone to give them a personification of who they really are. Those who don't question much may tend to gravitate toward an authoritarian leader. If the leader is a pathological liar, that doesn't seem to bother them. But then I'm sure it is also much more complicated than that. Many may not have the education or experience to know better and are easily persuaded. (Current Romney politics and Tea Bagers is a pretty good example.)

        In some ways, trying to have a discussion with a follower is worse than if you were to have that same discussion with the Cult leader himself, like HK. At least with HK his idiocy would be so obvious that he would have to excuse himself and leave the room. I've seen similar things with Scientology leaders. They usually through a tantrum and leave as they rip the mics off of themselves. Klemp would probably rip his clothes off. : )

        Non ; )

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        >Hello Non eckchains,
        Thanks for the opines.
        I, also, liked the quote:

        "Don't talk of different
        religions. The one reality
        is everywhere, not just
        in a Hindu, or a Muslim,
        or anywhere else!

        Realize: your awareness
        is the truth about God.

        - Lalla 14th Century North Indian mystic"

        It's interesting to see how
        many renown people, even
        today, plagiarize and/or
        use "ghost writers" in order
        to save time and effort.

        Twitchell, certainly, wasn't
        the first plagiarist and won't
        be the last. I don't think
        PT used ghost writers, but
        Klemp comes close to doing
        so because he publishes
        the articles mailed to him
        using pseudonyms for these
        Eckists, but under his byline.

        These Eckists give Klemp the
        ideas for his articles and, then,
        present the embellished filler
        which he merely recycles and
        comments/tweaks upon. So,
        in a way, HK's fans are also
        his ghost writers. The use of
        pseudonyms make them ghost
        like. Therefore, HK could have
        Joan, Peter, or other select staff
        members, from time-to-time,
        write the "letters," supposedly,
        mailed in to the ESC. I've noticed,
        too, that with certain questions
        submitted in these ECK Pubs
        that, at times, no name or even
        initials are given for the person
        submitting the questions. It
        appears, to me, that if Klemp
        wants to address a specific
        topic, which seems stuck in
        his craw, that he'll pretend he's
        an EKist and ask himself the
        question in order to give himself
        a platform to rebuke his H.I.s

        But, what should we expect?!
        Eckankar is similar to other
        cults with their secrecy and
        dishonestly in order to fulfill
        the agendas and goals of the
        hierarchy and/or the sole owner
        of the group like Klemp is
        to Eckankar.

        And, Eckankar is not unlike
        Scientology or Mormonism
        in that there are many nice
        people that have become
        fooled and deluded, or more
        deluded, by the lies and
        propaganda which has brain-
        washed them over the years.
        Plus, all three of these religions
        were founded by liars and
        conmen. Paul Twitchell,
        L. Ron Hubbard, and Joseph
        Smith... all were psychotic!

        Plus, Religion becomes not
        only a security blanket but,
        also, a means for the introverted
        masses to socialize while
        the extroverts climb the
        hierarchical ladder to even
        greater ego trips with power
        and titles and initiations
        to bind them, even more
        so, to the illusion of "spirituality."
        Membership in a religion
        is controlled by one clever/
        deceitful individual in charge.

        And, "consciousness" is
        limited by rules, scripture,
        expected behaviour, organizational
        structure, tradition, busy
        work, "acceptance" and a
        group consciousness of
        naive, and closed minded
        conformists who view themselves
        and their religion as "unique"
        and as the highest path to
        God.

        Prometheus

        "Non" eckchains wrote:
        I used to read Castaneda's books and found them interesting, but just because
        they were written by an anthropologist doesn't mean that they are still probably
        fiction. As I read the quotes of don Juan now, it seems obvious that this is not
        how even a teacher or professor or know it all would speak in person. An actor
        in a movie would have a hard time reciting all of that non stop without at some
        point eliciting, well laughter. I used to take books very seriously, and that
        there must be some level of Authority, otherwise it would never have gotten
        published. right? That's why Twit was able to get away with his plagiarism,
        because those old books were written with an air of Authority, even if there was
        not a shred of truth or evidence to it. He could copy and paste as much as he
        wanted to and quote fake eck masters spouting their mouths off, but it was after
        all just Science Fiction. Hubbard did the same thing with Scientology. Make it
        SEEM scientific or empirical or experiential and for many that is "proof"
        enough.

        Anyway, I think there is some truth here and there, but I am literally unable
        anymore to accept anything as So just because it is stated as So. Just My
        opinion. Sure we are programed by our cultural conditioning, but we are also
        biological material beings and savants when it comes to imagination and
        language, and utterly curious, as well as really dumb. Oh how I long for being
        OK with not knowing it all. And I am also very curious and won't stop wanting to
        learn more and more.....

        I like this from the same web page:

        Don't talk of different religions.
        The one reality is everywhere,
        not just in a Hindu, or a Muslim,
        or anywhere else! Realize:
        your awareness is
        the truth about God.

        - Lalla 14th Century North Indian mystic

        Non ; )

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > This is from the link in my
        > previous post.
        >
        > "A man of knowledge is one
        > who has followed truthfully
        > the hardships of learning,
        > a man who has, without rushing
        > or without faltering, gone
        > as far as he can in unraveling
        > the secrets of power and
        > knowledge. To become a
        > man of knowledge one must
        > challenge and defeat his
        > four natural enemies.
        >
        > When a man starts to learn,
        > he is never clear about his
        > objectives. His purpose is
        > faulty; his intent is vague.
        >
        > (1) He hopes for rewards
        > that will never materialize
        > for he knows nothing of
        > the hardships of learning.
        >
        > He slowly begins to learn--
        > bit by bit at first, then in
        > big chunks. And his thoughts
        > soon clash. What he learns
        > is never what he pictured,
        > or imagined, and so he
        > begins to be afraid. Learning
        > is never what one expects.
        >
        > Every step of learning is
        > a new task, and the fear
        > the man is experiencing
        > begins to mount mercilessly,
        > unyieldingly. His purpose
        > becomes a battlefield.
        > And thus he has stumbled
        > upon the first of his natural
        > enemies: fear!
        >
        > A terrible enemy--treacherous,
        > and difficult to overcome.
        > It remains concealed at every
        > turn of the way, prowling,
        > waiting. And if the man, terrified
        > in its presence, runs away,
        > his enemy will have put an
        > end to his quest and he will
        > never learn. He will never
        > become a man of knowledge.
        > He will perhaps be a bully,
        > or a harmless, scared man;
        > at any rate, he will be a
        > defeated man. His first enemy
        > will have put an end to his
        > cravings. It is not possible
        > for a man to abandon himself
        > to fear for years, then finally
        > conquer it. If he gives in to
        > fear he will never conquer it,
        > because he will shy away from
        > learning and never try again.
        >
        > But if he tries to learn for years
        > in the midst of his fear, he
        > will eventually conquer it
        > because he will never have
        > really abandoned himself
        > to it. Therefore he must not
        > run away. He must defy his
        > fear, and in spite of it he
        > must take the next step in
        > learning, and the next, and
        > the next.
        >
        > He must be fully afraid, and
        > yet he must not stop. That
        > is the rule! And a moment
        > will come when his first enemy
        > retreats. The man begins to
        > feel sure of himself. His intent
        > becomes stronger. Learning
        > is no longer a terrifying task.
        > When this joyful moment comes,
        > the man can say without hesitation
        > that he has defeated his first
        > natural enemy. It happens little
        > by little, and yet the fear is
        > vanquished suddenly and fast.
        >
        > Once a man has vanquished
        > fear, he is free from it for the
        > rest of his life because, instead
        > of fear, he has acquired clarity--
        > a clarity of mind which erases
        > fear. By then a man knows his
        > desires; he knows how to satisfy
        > those desires. He can anticipate
        > the new steps of learning and
        > a sharp clarity surrounds everything.
        >
        > The man feels that nothing is
        > concealed. And thus he has
        > encountered his second enemy:
        > (2) Clarity! That clarity of mind,
        > which is so hard to obtain,
        > dispels fear, but also blinds.
        > It forces the man never to doubt
        > himself. It gives him the assurance
        > he can do anything he pleases,
        > for he sees clearly into everything.
        > And he is courageous because
        > he is clear, and he stops at nothing
        > because he is clear. But all that
        > is a mistake; it is like something
        > incomplete.
        >
        >
        > If the man yields to this make-
        > believe power, he has succumbed
        > to his second enemy and will
        > be patient when he should rush.
        > And he will fumble with learning
        > until he winds up incapable of
        > learning anything more. His second
        > enemy has just stopped him cold
        > from trying to become a man of
        > knowledge. Instead, the man may
        > turn into a buoyant warrior, or
        > a clown. Yet the clarity for which
        > he has paid so dearly will never
        > change to darkness and fear again.
        > He will be clear as long as he lives,
        > but he will no longer learn, or
        > yearn for, anything. He must do
        > what he did with fear: he must
        > defy his clarity and use it only
        > to see, and wait patiently and
        > measure carefully before taking
        > new steps; he must think, above
        > all, that his clarity is almost
        > a mistake.
        >
        > And a moment will come when
        > he will understand that his clarity
        > was only a point before his eyes.
        > And thus he will have overcome
        > his second enemy, and will arrive
        > at a position where nothing can
        > harm him anymore.
        >
        > This will not be a mistake. It will
        > not be only a point before his
        > eyes. It will be true power. He
        > will know at this point that the
        > power he has been pursuing for
        > so long is finally his. He can do
        > with it whatever he pleases. His
        > ally is at his command. His wish
        > is the rule. He sees all that is
        > around him. But he has also
        > come across his third enemy:
        > (3) Power! Power is the strongest
        > of all enemies. And naturally
        > the easiest thing to do is to
        > give in; after all, the man is
        > truly invincible. He commands;
        > he begins by taking calculated
        > risks, andends in making rules,
        > because he is a master.
        >
        > A man at this stage hardly notices
        > his third enemy closing in on him.
        > And suddenly, without knowing,
        > he will certainly have lost the battle.
        > His enemy will have turned him
        > into a cruel, capricious man, but
        > he will never lose his clarity or
        > his power. A man who is defeated
        > by power dies without really knowing
        > how to handle it. Power is only
        > a burden upon his fate. Such
        > a man has no command over
        > himself, and cannot tell when
        > or how to use his power.
        >
        > Once one of these enemies
        > overpowers a man there is
        > nothing he can do. It is not
        > possible, for instance, that
        > a man who is defeated by
        > power may see his error and
        > mend his ways. Once a man
        > gives in he is through. If,
        > however, he is temporarily
        > blinded by power, and then
        > refuses it, his battle is still
        > on. That means he is still
        > trying to become a man of
        > knowledge. A man is defeated
        > only when he no longer tries,
        > and abandons himself. He
        > has to come to realize that
        > the power he has seemingly
        > conquered is in reality never
        > his. He must keep himself
        > in line at all times, handling
        > carefully and faithfully all
        > that he has learned. If he
        > can see that clarity and
        > power, without his control
        > over himself, are worse than
        > mistakes, he will reach
        > a point where everything
        > is held in check. He will
        > know then when and how
        > to use his power.
        >
        > And thus he will have
        > defeated his third enemy.
        > The man will be, by then,
        > at the end of his journey
        > of learning, and almost
        > without warning he will
        > come upon the last of his
        > enemies: (4.) Old age!
        > This enemy is the cruelest
        > of all, the one he won't
        > be able to defeat completely,
        > but only fight away.
        >
        > This is the time when a
        > man has no more fears,
        > no more impatient clarity
        > of mind--a time when all
        > his power is in check, but
        > also the time when he has
        > an unyielding desire to rest.
        >
        > If he gives in totally to his
        > desire to lie down and forget,
        > if he soothes himself in
        > tiredness, he will have lost
        > his last round, and his enemy
        > will cut him down into a
        > feeble old creature. His
        > desire to retreat will overrule
        > all his clarity, his power,
        > and his knowledge.
        >
        > But if the man sloughs off
        > his tiredness, and lives his
        > fate though, he can then be
        > called a man of knowledge,
        > if only for the brief moment
        > when he succeeds in fighting
        > off his last, invincible enemy.
        > That moment of clarity, power,
        > and knowledge is enough.
        >
        > Anything is one of a million
        > paths. Therefore you must
        > always keep in mind that a
        > path is only a path; if you feel
        > you should not follow it, you
        > must not stay with it under
        > any conditions.
        >
        > To have such clarity you must
        > lead a disciplined life. Only
        > then will you know that any
        > path is only a path and there
        > is no affront, to oneself or to
        > others, in dropping it if that
        > is what your heart tells you to
        > do.
        >
        > But your decision to keep on
        > the path or to leave it must
        > be free of fear or ambition.
        >
        > I warn you. Look at every
        > path closely and deliberately.
        > Try it as many times as you
        > think necessary. This question
        > is one that only a very old
        > man asks. Does this path have
        > a heart?
        >
        > All paths are the same: they
        > lead nowhere. They are paths
        > going through the bush, or
        > into the bush. In my own life
        > I could say I have traversed
        > long long paths, but I am not
        > anywhere.
        >
        > Does this path have a heart?
        > If it does, the path is good;
        > if it doesn't, it is of no use.
        >
        > Both paths lead nowhere;
        > but one has a heart, the
        > other doesn't. One makes
        > for a joyful journey; as long
        > as you follow it, you are one
        > with it. The other will make
        > you curse your life. One makes
        > you strong; the other weakens
        > you.
        >
        > Before you embark on any path
        > [once again] ask the question:
        >
        > Does this path have a heart?
        >
        > If the answer is no, you will know
        > it, and then you must choose
        > another path. The trouble is
        > nobody asks the question; and
        > when a man finally realizes that
        > he has taken a path without a
        > heart, the path is ready to kill
        > him. At that point very few men
        > can stop to deliberate, and leave
        > the path. A path without a heart
        > is never enjoyable. You have to
        > work hard even to take it.
        >
        > On the other hand, a path with
        > heart is easy; it does not make
        > you work at liking it.
        >
        > I have told you that to choose
        > a path you must be free from
        > fear and ambition. The desire
        > to learn is not ambition. It is
        > our lot as men to want to know.
        >
        > The path without a heart will
        > turn against men and destroy
        > them. It does not take much
        > to die, and to seek death is
        > to seek nothing.
        >
        > For me there is only the traveling
        > on the paths that have a heart,
        > on any path that may have a heart.
        > There I travel, and the only worthwhile
        > challenge for me is to traverse
        > its full length. And there I travel--
        > looking, looking, breathlessly.
        >
        > 1 fear = what we experience
        > clashes on close examination
        > with our thoughts. What he
        > learns is never what he pictured,
        > or imagined, and so he begins
        > to be afraid. (fear is the mind killer!)
        >
        > 2 Clarity = clarity of mind which
        > erases fear. By then a man knows
        > his desires; he knows how to
        > satisfy those desires. He can
        > anticipate the new steps of learning
        > and a sharp clarity surrounds
        > everything. The man feels that
        > nothing is concealed.
        >
        > 3 power = He has to come to
        > realize that the power he has
        > seemingly conquered is in reality
        > never his. He must keep himself
        > in line at all times, handling
        > carefully and faithfully all that
        > he has learned. If he can see
        > that clarity and power, without
        > his control over himself, are
        > worse than mistakes, he will
        > reach a point where everything
        > is held in check. He will know
        > then when and how to use his
        > power. And thus he will have
        > defeated his third enemy
        >
        > 4. OLd AGE= This is the time
        > when a man has no more fears,
        > no more impatient clarity of mind--
        > a time when all his power is in
        > check, but also the time when
        > he has an unyielding desire to
        > rest. If he gives in totally to his
        > desire to lie down and forget,
        > if he soothes himself in tiredness,
        > he will have lost his last round,
        > and his enemy will cut him down
        > into a feeble old creature. His
        > desire to retreat will overrule
        > all his clarity, his power, and
        > his knowledge." [end]
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Non eckchains, It does seem that a lot of what you ve pointed out can be applied to the nutty comments and defense of Eckankar by Paulji_teen. However, I
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 28, 2012
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          Hello Non eckchains,
          It does seem that a lot
          of what you've pointed
          out can be applied to
          the nutty comments
          and defense of Eckankar
          by Paulji_teen. However,
          I doubt that she'll be
          able to see the symmetry
          or look into the mirror.

          Prometheus

          "Non" eckchains wrote:
          Thanks Prometheus,

          as far as psychotic religious leaders and the introverted followers, I think
          that often the followers bring their own bias, prejudice and even hatred to whom
          they follow. They are looking for someone to give them a personification of who
          they really are. Those who don't question much may tend to gravitate toward an
          authoritarian leader. If the leader is a pathological liar, that doesn't seem to
          bother them. But then I'm sure it is also much more complicated than that. Many
          may not have the education or experience to know better and are easily
          persuaded. (Current Romney politics and Tea Bagers is a pretty good example.)

          In some ways, trying to have a discussion with a follower is worse than if you
          were to have that same discussion with the Cult leader himself, like HK. At
          least with HK his idiocy would be so obvious that he would have to excuse
          himself and leave the room. I've seen similar things with Scientology leaders.
          They usually through a tantrum and leave as they rip the mics off of themselves.
          Klemp would probably rip his clothes off. : )

          Non ; )

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          >Hello Non eckchains,
          Thanks for the opines.
          I, also, liked the quote:

          "Don't talk of different
          religions. The one reality
          is everywhere, not just
          in a Hindu, or a Muslim,
          or anywhere else!

          Realize: your awareness
          is the truth about God.

          - Lalla 14th Century North Indian mystic"

          It's interesting to see how
          many renown people, even
          today, plagiarize and/or
          use "ghost writers" in order
          to save time and effort.

          Twitchell, certainly, wasn't
          the first plagiarist and won't
          be the last. I don't think
          PT used ghost writers, but
          Klemp comes close to doing
          so because he publishes
          the articles mailed to him
          using pseudonyms for these
          Eckists, but under his byline.

          These Eckists give Klemp the
          ideas for his articles and, then,
          present the embellished filler
          which he merely recycles and
          comments/tweaks upon. So,
          in a way, HK's fans are also
          his ghost writers. The use of
          pseudonyms make them ghost
          like. Therefore, HK could have
          Joan, Peter, or other select staff
          members, from time-to-time,
          write the "letters," supposedly,
          mailed in to the ESC. I've noticed,
          too, that with certain questions
          submitted in these ECK Pubs
          that, at times, no name or even
          initials are given for the person
          submitting the questions. It
          appears, to me, that if Klemp
          wants to address a specific
          topic, which seems stuck in
          his craw, that he'll pretend he's
          an EKist and ask himself the
          question in order to give himself
          a platform to rebuke his H.I.s

          But, what should we expect?!
          Eckankar is similar to other
          cults with their secrecy and
          dishonestly in order to fulfill
          the agendas and goals of the
          hierarchy and/or the sole owner
          of the group like Klemp is
          to Eckankar.

          And, Eckankar is not unlike
          Scientology or Mormonism
          in that there are many nice
          people that have become
          fooled and deluded, or more
          deluded, by the lies and
          propaganda which has brain-
          washed them over the years.
          Plus, all three of these religions
          were founded by liars and
          conmen. Paul Twitchell,
          L. Ron Hubbard, and Joseph
          Smith... all were psychotic!

          Plus, Religion becomes not
          only a security blanket but,
          also, a means for the introverted
          masses to socialize while
          the extroverts climb the
          hierarchical ladder to even
          greater ego trips with power
          and titles and initiations
          to bind them, even more
          so, to the illusion of "spirituality."
          Membership in a religion
          is controlled by one clever/
          deceitful individual in charge.

          And, "consciousness" is
          limited by rules, scripture,
          expected behaviour, organizational
          structure, tradition, busy
          work, "acceptance" and a
          group consciousness of
          naive, and closed minded
          conformists who view themselves
          and their religion as "unique"
          and as the highest path to
          God.

          Prometheus

          "Non" eckchains wrote:
          I used to read Castaneda's books and found them interesting, but just because
          they were written by an anthropologist doesn't mean that they are still probably
          fiction. As I read the quotes of don Juan now, it seems obvious that this is not
          how even a teacher or professor or know it all would speak in person. An actor
          in a movie would have a hard time reciting all of that non stop without at some
          point eliciting, well laughter. I used to take books very seriously, and that
          there must be some level of Authority, otherwise it would never have gotten
          published. right? That's why Twit was able to get away with his plagiarism,
          because those old books were written with an air of Authority, even if there was
          not a shred of truth or evidence to it. He could copy and paste as much as he
          wanted to and quote fake eck masters spouting their mouths off, but it was after
          all just Science Fiction. Hubbard did the same thing with Scientology. Make it
          SEEM scientific or empirical or experiential and for many that is "proof"
          enough.

          Anyway, I think there is some truth here and there, but I am literally unable
          anymore to accept anything as So just because it is stated as So. Just My
          opinion. Sure we are programed by our cultural conditioning, but we are also
          biological material beings and savants when it comes to imagination and
          language, and utterly curious, as well as really dumb. Oh how I long for being
          OK with not knowing it all. And I am also very curious and won't stop wanting to
          learn more and more.....

          I like this from the same web page:

          Don't talk of different religions.
          The one reality is everywhere,
          not just in a Hindu, or a Muslim,
          or anywhere else! Realize:
          your awareness is
          the truth about God.

          - Lalla 14th Century North Indian mystic

          Non ; )

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > This is from the link in my
          > previous post.
          >
          > "A man of knowledge is one
          > who has followed truthfully
          > the hardships of learning,
          > a man who has, without rushing
          > or without faltering, gone
          > as far as he can in unraveling
          > the secrets of power and
          > knowledge. To become a
          > man of knowledge one must
          > challenge and defeat his
          > four natural enemies.
          >
          > When a man starts to learn,
          > he is never clear about his
          > objectives. His purpose is
          > faulty; his intent is vague.
          >
          > (1) He hopes for rewards
          > that will never materialize
          > for he knows nothing of
          > the hardships of learning.
          >
          > He slowly begins to learn--
          > bit by bit at first, then in
          > big chunks. And his thoughts
          > soon clash. What he learns
          > is never what he pictured,
          > or imagined, and so he
          > begins to be afraid. Learning
          > is never what one expects.
          >
          > Every step of learning is
          > a new task, and the fear
          > the man is experiencing
          > begins to mount mercilessly,
          > unyieldingly. His purpose
          > becomes a battlefield.
          > And thus he has stumbled
          > upon the first of his natural
          > enemies: fear!
          >
          > A terrible enemy--treacherous,
          > and difficult to overcome.
          > It remains concealed at every
          > turn of the way, prowling,
          > waiting. And if the man, terrified
          > in its presence, runs away,
          > his enemy will have put an
          > end to his quest and he will
          > never learn. He will never
          > become a man of knowledge.
          > He will perhaps be a bully,
          > or a harmless, scared man;
          > at any rate, he will be a
          > defeated man. His first enemy
          > will have put an end to his
          > cravings. It is not possible
          > for a man to abandon himself
          > to fear for years, then finally
          > conquer it. If he gives in to
          > fear he will never conquer it,
          > because he will shy away from
          > learning and never try again.
          >
          > But if he tries to learn for years
          > in the midst of his fear, he
          > will eventually conquer it
          > because he will never have
          > really abandoned himself
          > to it. Therefore he must not
          > run away. He must defy his
          > fear, and in spite of it he
          > must take the next step in
          > learning, and the next, and
          > the next.
          >
          > He must be fully afraid, and
          > yet he must not stop. That
          > is the rule! And a moment
          > will come when his first enemy
          > retreats. The man begins to
          > feel sure of himself. His intent
          > becomes stronger. Learning
          > is no longer a terrifying task.
          > When this joyful moment comes,
          > the man can say without hesitation
          > that he has defeated his first
          > natural enemy. It happens little
          > by little, and yet the fear is
          > vanquished suddenly and fast.
          >
          > Once a man has vanquished
          > fear, he is free from it for the
          > rest of his life because, instead
          > of fear, he has acquired clarity--
          > a clarity of mind which erases
          > fear. By then a man knows his
          > desires; he knows how to satisfy
          > those desires. He can anticipate
          > the new steps of learning and
          > a sharp clarity surrounds everything.
          >
          > The man feels that nothing is
          > concealed. And thus he has
          > encountered his second enemy:
          > (2) Clarity! That clarity of mind,
          > which is so hard to obtain,
          > dispels fear, but also blinds.
          > It forces the man never to doubt
          > himself. It gives him the assurance
          > he can do anything he pleases,
          > for he sees clearly into everything.
          > And he is courageous because
          > he is clear, and he stops at nothing
          > because he is clear. But all that
          > is a mistake; it is like something
          > incomplete.
          >
          >
          > If the man yields to this make-
          > believe power, he has succumbed
          > to his second enemy and will
          > be patient when he should rush.
          > And he will fumble with learning
          > until he winds up incapable of
          > learning anything more. His second
          > enemy has just stopped him cold
          > from trying to become a man of
          > knowledge. Instead, the man may
          > turn into a buoyant warrior, or
          > a clown. Yet the clarity for which
          > he has paid so dearly will never
          > change to darkness and fear again.
          > He will be clear as long as he lives,
          > but he will no longer learn, or
          > yearn for, anything. He must do
          > what he did with fear: he must
          > defy his clarity and use it only
          > to see, and wait patiently and
          > measure carefully before taking
          > new steps; he must think, above
          > all, that his clarity is almost
          > a mistake.
          >
          > And a moment will come when
          > he will understand that his clarity
          > was only a point before his eyes.
          > And thus he will have overcome
          > his second enemy, and will arrive
          > at a position where nothing can
          > harm him anymore.
          >
          > This will not be a mistake. It will
          > not be only a point before his
          > eyes. It will be true power. He
          > will know at this point that the
          > power he has been pursuing for
          > so long is finally his. He can do
          > with it whatever he pleases. His
          > ally is at his command. His wish
          > is the rule. He sees all that is
          > around him. But he has also
          > come across his third enemy:
          > (3) Power! Power is the strongest
          > of all enemies. And naturally
          > the easiest thing to do is to
          > give in; after all, the man is
          > truly invincible. He commands;
          > he begins by taking calculated
          > risks, andends in making rules,
          > because he is a master.
          >
          > A man at this stage hardly notices
          > his third enemy closing in on him.
          > And suddenly, without knowing,
          > he will certainly have lost the battle.
          > His enemy will have turned him
          > into a cruel, capricious man, but
          > he will never lose his clarity or
          > his power. A man who is defeated
          > by power dies without really knowing
          > how to handle it. Power is only
          > a burden upon his fate. Such
          > a man has no command over
          > himself, and cannot tell when
          > or how to use his power.
          >
          > Once one of these enemies
          > overpowers a man there is
          > nothing he can do. It is not
          > possible, for instance, that
          > a man who is defeated by
          > power may see his error and
          > mend his ways. Once a man
          > gives in he is through. If,
          > however, he is temporarily
          > blinded by power, and then
          > refuses it, his battle is still
          > on. That means he is still
          > trying to become a man of
          > knowledge. A man is defeated
          > only when he no longer tries,
          > and abandons himself. He
          > has to come to realize that
          > the power he has seemingly
          > conquered is in reality never
          > his. He must keep himself
          > in line at all times, handling
          > carefully and faithfully all
          > that he has learned. If he
          > can see that clarity and
          > power, without his control
          > over himself, are worse than
          > mistakes, he will reach
          > a point where everything
          > is held in check. He will
          > know then when and how
          > to use his power.
          >
          > And thus he will have
          > defeated his third enemy.
          > The man will be, by then,
          > at the end of his journey
          > of learning, and almost
          > without warning he will
          > come upon the last of his
          > enemies: (4.) Old age!
          > This enemy is the cruelest
          > of all, the one he won't
          > be able to defeat completely,
          > but only fight away.
          >
          > This is the time when a
          > man has no more fears,
          > no more impatient clarity
          > of mind--a time when all
          > his power is in check, but
          > also the time when he has
          > an unyielding desire to rest.
          >
          > If he gives in totally to his
          > desire to lie down and forget,
          > if he soothes himself in
          > tiredness, he will have lost
          > his last round, and his enemy
          > will cut him down into a
          > feeble old creature. His
          > desire to retreat will overrule
          > all his clarity, his power,
          > and his knowledge.
          >
          > But if the man sloughs off
          > his tiredness, and lives his
          > fate though, he can then be
          > called a man of knowledge,
          > if only for the brief moment
          > when he succeeds in fighting
          > off his last, invincible enemy.
          > That moment of clarity, power,
          > and knowledge is enough.
          >
          > Anything is one of a million
          > paths. Therefore you must
          > always keep in mind that a
          > path is only a path; if you feel
          > you should not follow it, you
          > must not stay with it under
          > any conditions.
          >
          > To have such clarity you must
          > lead a disciplined life. Only
          > then will you know that any
          > path is only a path and there
          > is no affront, to oneself or to
          > others, in dropping it if that
          > is what your heart tells you to
          > do.
          >
          > But your decision to keep on
          > the path or to leave it must
          > be free of fear or ambition.
          >
          > I warn you. Look at every
          > path closely and deliberately.
          > Try it as many times as you
          > think necessary. This question
          > is one that only a very old
          > man asks. Does this path have
          > a heart?
          >
          > All paths are the same: they
          > lead nowhere. They are paths
          > going through the bush, or
          > into the bush. In my own life
          > I could say I have traversed
          > long long paths, but I am not
          > anywhere.
          >
          > Does this path have a heart?
          > If it does, the path is good;
          > if it doesn't, it is of no use.
          >
          > Both paths lead nowhere;
          > but one has a heart, the
          > other doesn't. One makes
          > for a joyful journey; as long
          > as you follow it, you are one
          > with it. The other will make
          > you curse your life. One makes
          > you strong; the other weakens
          > you.
          >
          > Before you embark on any path
          > [once again] ask the question:
          >
          > Does this path have a heart?
          >
          > If the answer is no, you will know
          > it, and then you must choose
          > another path. The trouble is
          > nobody asks the question; and
          > when a man finally realizes that
          > he has taken a path without a
          > heart, the path is ready to kill
          > him. At that point very few men
          > can stop to deliberate, and leave
          > the path. A path without a heart
          > is never enjoyable. You have to
          > work hard even to take it.
          >
          > On the other hand, a path with
          > heart is easy; it does not make
          > you work at liking it.
          >
          > I have told you that to choose
          > a path you must be free from
          > fear and ambition. The desire
          > to learn is not ambition. It is
          > our lot as men to want to know.
          >
          > The path without a heart will
          > turn against men and destroy
          > them. It does not take much
          > to die, and to seek death is
          > to seek nothing.
          >
          > For me there is only the traveling
          > on the paths that have a heart,
          > on any path that may have a heart.
          > There I travel, and the only worthwhile
          > challenge for me is to traverse
          > its full length. And there I travel--
          > looking, looking, breathlessly.
          >
          > 1 fear = what we experience
          > clashes on close examination
          > with our thoughts. What he
          > learns is never what he pictured,
          > or imagined, and so he begins
          > to be afraid. (fear is the mind killer!)
          >
          > 2 Clarity = clarity of mind which
          > erases fear. By then a man knows
          > his desires; he knows how to
          > satisfy those desires. He can
          > anticipate the new steps of learning
          > and a sharp clarity surrounds
          > everything. The man feels that
          > nothing is concealed.
          >
          > 3 power = He has to come to
          > realize that the power he has
          > seemingly conquered is in reality
          > never his. He must keep himself
          > in line at all times, handling
          > carefully and faithfully all that
          > he has learned. If he can see
          > that clarity and power, without
          > his control over himself, are
          > worse than mistakes, he will
          > reach a point where everything
          > is held in check. He will know
          > then when and how to use his
          > power. And thus he will have
          > defeated his third enemy
          >
          > 4. OLd AGE= This is the time
          > when a man has no more fears,
          > no more impatient clarity of mind--
          > a time when all his power is in
          > check, but also the time when
          > he has an unyielding desire to
          > rest. If he gives in totally to his
          > desire to lie down and forget,
          > if he soothes himself in tiredness,
          > he will have lost his last round,
          > and his enemy will cut him down
          > into a feeble old creature. His
          > desire to retreat will overrule
          > all his clarity, his power, and
          > his knowledge." [end]
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