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An Interesting Article That Applies to the "Path" of Eckankar

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  • prometheus_973
    This is from the link in my previous post. A man of knowledge is one who has followed truthfully the hardships of learning, a man who has, without rushing or
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 25, 2012
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      This is from the link in my
      previous post.

      "A man of knowledge is one
      who has followed truthfully
      the hardships of learning,
      a man who has, without rushing
      or without faltering, gone
      as far as he can in unraveling
      the secrets of power and
      knowledge. To become a
      man of knowledge one must
      challenge and defeat his
      four natural enemies.

      When a man starts to learn,
      he is never clear about his
      objectives. His purpose is
      faulty; his intent is vague.

      (1) He hopes for rewards
      that will never materialize
      for he knows nothing of
      the hardships of learning.

      He slowly begins to learn--
      bit by bit at first, then in
      big chunks. And his thoughts
      soon clash. What he learns
      is never what he pictured,
      or imagined, and so he
      begins to be afraid. Learning
      is never what one expects.

      Every step of learning is
      a new task, and the fear
      the man is experiencing
      begins to mount mercilessly,
      unyieldingly. His purpose
      becomes a battlefield.
      And thus he has stumbled
      upon the first of his natural
      enemies: fear!

      A terrible enemy--treacherous,
      and difficult to overcome.
      It remains concealed at every
      turn of the way, prowling,
      waiting. And if the man, terrified
      in its presence, runs away,
      his enemy will have put an
      end to his quest and he will
      never learn. He will never
      become a man of knowledge.
      He will perhaps be a bully,
      or a harmless, scared man;
      at any rate, he will be a
      defeated man. His first enemy
      will have put an end to his
      cravings. It is not possible
      for a man to abandon himself
      to fear for years, then finally
      conquer it. If he gives in to
      fear he will never conquer it,
      because he will shy away from
      learning and never try again.

      But if he tries to learn for years
      in the midst of his fear, he
      will eventually conquer it
      because he will never have
      really abandoned himself
      to it. Therefore he must not
      run away. He must defy his
      fear, and in spite of it he
      must take the next step in
      learning, and the next, and
      the next.

      He must be fully afraid, and
      yet he must not stop. That
      is the rule! And a moment
      will come when his first enemy
      retreats. The man begins to
      feel sure of himself. His intent
      becomes stronger. Learning
      is no longer a terrifying task.
      When this joyful moment comes,
      the man can say without hesitation
      that he has defeated his first
      natural enemy. It happens little
      by little, and yet the fear is
      vanquished suddenly and fast.

      Once a man has vanquished
      fear, he is free from it for the
      rest of his life because, instead
      of fear, he has acquired clarity--
      a clarity of mind which erases
      fear. By then a man knows his
      desires; he knows how to satisfy
      those desires. He can anticipate
      the new steps of learning and
      a sharp clarity surrounds everything.

      The man feels that nothing is
      concealed. And thus he has
      encountered his second enemy:
      (2) Clarity! That clarity of mind,
      which is so hard to obtain,
      dispels fear, but also blinds.
      It forces the man never to doubt
      himself. It gives him the assurance
      he can do anything he pleases,
      for he sees clearly into everything.
      And he is courageous because
      he is clear, and he stops at nothing
      because he is clear. But all that
      is a mistake; it is like something
      incomplete.


      If the man yields to this make-
      believe power, he has succumbed
      to his second enemy and will
      be patient when he should rush.
      And he will fumble with learning
      until he winds up incapable of
      learning anything more. His second
      enemy has just stopped him cold
      from trying to become a man of
      knowledge. Instead, the man may
      turn into a buoyant warrior, or
      a clown. Yet the clarity for which
      he has paid so dearly will never
      change to darkness and fear again.
      He will be clear as long as he lives,
      but he will no longer learn, or
      yearn for, anything. He must do
      what he did with fear: he must
      defy his clarity and use it only
      to see, and wait patiently and
      measure carefully before taking
      new steps; he must think, above
      all, that his clarity is almost
      a mistake.

      And a moment will come when
      he will understand that his clarity
      was only a point before his eyes.
      And thus he will have overcome
      his second enemy, and will arrive
      at a position where nothing can
      harm him anymore.

      This will not be a mistake. It will
      not be only a point before his
      eyes. It will be true power. He
      will know at this point that the
      power he has been pursuing for
      so long is finally his. He can do
      with it whatever he pleases. His
      ally is at his command. His wish
      is the rule. He sees all that is
      around him. But he has also
      come across his third enemy:
      (3) Power! Power is the strongest
      of all enemies. And naturally
      the easiest thing to do is to
      give in; after all, the man is
      truly invincible. He commands;
      he begins by taking calculated
      risks, andends in making rules,
      because he is a master.

      A man at this stage hardly notices
      his third enemy closing in on him.
      And suddenly, without knowing,
      he will certainly have lost the battle.
      His enemy will have turned him
      into a cruel, capricious man, but
      he will never lose his clarity or
      his power. A man who is defeated
      by power dies without really knowing
      how to handle it. Power is only
      a burden upon his fate. Such
      a man has no command over
      himself, and cannot tell when
      or how to use his power.

      Once one of these enemies
      overpowers a man there is
      nothing he can do. It is not
      possible, for instance, that
      a man who is defeated by
      power may see his error and
      mend his ways. Once a man
      gives in he is through. If,
      however, he is temporarily
      blinded by power, and then
      refuses it, his battle is still
      on. That means he is still
      trying to become a man of
      knowledge. A man is defeated
      only when he no longer tries,
      and abandons himself. He
      has to come to realize that
      the power he has seemingly
      conquered is in reality never
      his. He must keep himself
      in line at all times, handling
      carefully and faithfully all
      that he has learned. If he
      can see that clarity and
      power, without his control
      over himself, are worse than
      mistakes, he will reach
      a point where everything
      is held in check. He will
      know then when and how
      to use his power.

      And thus he will have
      defeated his third enemy.
      The man will be, by then,
      at the end of his journey
      of learning, and almost
      without warning he will
      come upon the last of his
      enemies: (4.) Old age!
      This enemy is the cruelest
      of all, the one he won't
      be able to defeat completely,
      but only fight away.

      This is the time when a
      man has no more fears,
      no more impatient clarity
      of mind--a time when all
      his power is in check, but
      also the time when he has
      an unyielding desire to rest.

      If he gives in totally to his
      desire to lie down and forget,
      if he soothes himself in
      tiredness, he will have lost
      his last round, and his enemy
      will cut him down into a
      feeble old creature. His
      desire to retreat will overrule
      all his clarity, his power,
      and his knowledge.

      But if the man sloughs off
      his tiredness, and lives his
      fate though, he can then be
      called a man of knowledge,
      if only for the brief moment
      when he succeeds in fighting
      off his last, invincible enemy.
      That moment of clarity, power,
      and knowledge is enough.

      Anything is one of a million
      paths. Therefore you must
      always keep in mind that a
      path is only a path; if you feel
      you should not follow it, you
      must not stay with it under
      any conditions.

      To have such clarity you must
      lead a disciplined life. Only
      then will you know that any
      path is only a path and there
      is no affront, to oneself or to
      others, in dropping it if that
      is what your heart tells you to
      do.

      But your decision to keep on
      the path or to leave it must
      be free of fear or ambition.

      I warn you. Look at every
      path closely and deliberately.
      Try it as many times as you
      think necessary. This question
      is one that only a very old
      man asks. Does this path have
      a heart?

      All paths are the same: they
      lead nowhere. They are paths
      going through the bush, or
      into the bush. In my own life
      I could say I have traversed
      long long paths, but I am not
      anywhere.

      Does this path have a heart?
      If it does, the path is good;
      if it doesn't, it is of no use.

      Both paths lead nowhere;
      but one has a heart, the
      other doesn't. One makes
      for a joyful journey; as long
      as you follow it, you are one
      with it. The other will make
      you curse your life. One makes
      you strong; the other weakens
      you.

      Before you embark on any path
      [once again] ask the question:

      Does this path have a heart?

      If the answer is no, you will know
      it, and then you must choose
      another path. The trouble is
      nobody asks the question; and
      when a man finally realizes that
      he has taken a path without a
      heart, the path is ready to kill
      him. At that point very few men
      can stop to deliberate, and leave
      the path. A path without a heart
      is never enjoyable. You have to
      work hard even to take it.

      On the other hand, a path with
      heart is easy; it does not make
      you work at liking it.

      I have told you that to choose
      a path you must be free from
      fear and ambition. The desire
      to learn is not ambition. It is
      our lot as men to want to know.

      The path without a heart will
      turn against men and destroy
      them. It does not take much
      to die, and to seek death is
      to seek nothing.

      For me there is only the traveling
      on the paths that have a heart,
      on any path that may have a heart.
      There I travel, and the only worthwhile
      challenge for me is to traverse
      its full length. And there I travel--
      looking, looking, breathlessly.

      1 fear = what we experience
      clashes on close examination
      with our thoughts. What he
      learns is never what he pictured,
      or imagined, and so he begins
      to be afraid. (fear is the mind killer!)

      2 Clarity = clarity of mind which
      erases fear. By then a man knows
      his desires; he knows how to
      satisfy those desires. He can
      anticipate the new steps of learning
      and a sharp clarity surrounds
      everything. The man feels that
      nothing is concealed.

      3 power = He has to come to
      realize that the power he has
      seemingly conquered is in reality
      never his. He must keep himself
      in line at all times, handling
      carefully and faithfully all that
      he has learned. If he can see
      that clarity and power, without
      his control over himself, are
      worse than mistakes, he will
      reach a point where everything
      is held in check. He will know
      then when and how to use his
      power. And thus he will have
      defeated his third enemy

      4. OLd AGE= This is the time
      when a man has no more fears,
      no more impatient clarity of mind--
      a time when all his power is in
      check, but also the time when
      he has an unyielding desire to
      rest. If he gives in totally to his
      desire to lie down and forget,
      if he soothes himself in tiredness,
      he will have lost his last round,
      and his enemy will cut him down
      into a feeble old creature. His
      desire to retreat will overrule
      all his clarity, his power, and
      his knowledge." [end]
    • Non
      eckankar is a path without Heart, a puffed up pompous pretense. I used to read Castaneda s books and found them interesting, but just because they were written
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 26, 2012
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        eckankar is a path without Heart, a puffed up pompous pretense.

        I used to read Castaneda's books and found them interesting, but just because they were written by an anthropologist doesn't mean that they are still probably fiction. As I read the quotes of don Juan now, it seems obvious that this is not how even a teacher or professor or know it all would speak in person. An actor in a movie would have a hard time reciting all of that non stop without at some point eliciting, well laughter. I used to take books very seriously, and that there must be some level of Authority, otherwise it would never have gotten published. right? That's why Twit was able to get away with his plagiarism, because those old books were written with an air of Authority, even if there was not a shred of truth or evidence to it. He could copy and paste as much as he wanted to and quote fake eck masters spouting their mouths off, but it was after all just Science Fiction. Hubbard did the same thing with Scientology. Make it SEEM scientific or empirical or experiential and for many that is "proof" enough.

        Anyway, I think there is some truth here and there, but I am literally unable anymore to accept anything as So just because it is stated as So. Just My opinion. Sure we are programed by our cultural conditioning, but we are also biological material beings and savants when it comes to imagination and language, and utterly curious, as well as really dumb. Oh how I long for being OK with not knowing it all. And I am also very curious and won't stop wanting to learn more and more.....

        I like this from the same web page:

        Don't talk of different religions.
        The one reality is everywhere,
        not just in a Hindu, or a Muslim,
        or anywhere else! Realize:
        your awareness is
        the truth about God.

        - Lalla 14th Century North Indian mystic

        Non ; )

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > This is from the link in my
        > previous post.
        >
        > "A man of knowledge is one
        > who has followed truthfully
        > the hardships of learning,
        > a man who has, without rushing
        > or without faltering, gone
        > as far as he can in unraveling
        > the secrets of power and
        > knowledge. To become a
        > man of knowledge one must
        > challenge and defeat his
        > four natural enemies.
        >
        > When a man starts to learn,
        > he is never clear about his
        > objectives. His purpose is
        > faulty; his intent is vague.
        >
        > (1) He hopes for rewards
        > that will never materialize
        > for he knows nothing of
        > the hardships of learning.
        >
        > He slowly begins to learn--
        > bit by bit at first, then in
        > big chunks. And his thoughts
        > soon clash. What he learns
        > is never what he pictured,
        > or imagined, and so he
        > begins to be afraid. Learning
        > is never what one expects.
        >
        > Every step of learning is
        > a new task, and the fear
        > the man is experiencing
        > begins to mount mercilessly,
        > unyieldingly. His purpose
        > becomes a battlefield.
        > And thus he has stumbled
        > upon the first of his natural
        > enemies: fear!
        >
        > A terrible enemy--treacherous,
        > and difficult to overcome.
        > It remains concealed at every
        > turn of the way, prowling,
        > waiting. And if the man, terrified
        > in its presence, runs away,
        > his enemy will have put an
        > end to his quest and he will
        > never learn. He will never
        > become a man of knowledge.
        > He will perhaps be a bully,
        > or a harmless, scared man;
        > at any rate, he will be a
        > defeated man. His first enemy
        > will have put an end to his
        > cravings. It is not possible
        > for a man to abandon himself
        > to fear for years, then finally
        > conquer it. If he gives in to
        > fear he will never conquer it,
        > because he will shy away from
        > learning and never try again.
        >
        > But if he tries to learn for years
        > in the midst of his fear, he
        > will eventually conquer it
        > because he will never have
        > really abandoned himself
        > to it. Therefore he must not
        > run away. He must defy his
        > fear, and in spite of it he
        > must take the next step in
        > learning, and the next, and
        > the next.
        >
        > He must be fully afraid, and
        > yet he must not stop. That
        > is the rule! And a moment
        > will come when his first enemy
        > retreats. The man begins to
        > feel sure of himself. His intent
        > becomes stronger. Learning
        > is no longer a terrifying task.
        > When this joyful moment comes,
        > the man can say without hesitation
        > that he has defeated his first
        > natural enemy. It happens little
        > by little, and yet the fear is
        > vanquished suddenly and fast.
        >
        > Once a man has vanquished
        > fear, he is free from it for the
        > rest of his life because, instead
        > of fear, he has acquired clarity--
        > a clarity of mind which erases
        > fear. By then a man knows his
        > desires; he knows how to satisfy
        > those desires. He can anticipate
        > the new steps of learning and
        > a sharp clarity surrounds everything.
        >
        > The man feels that nothing is
        > concealed. And thus he has
        > encountered his second enemy:
        > (2) Clarity! That clarity of mind,
        > which is so hard to obtain,
        > dispels fear, but also blinds.
        > It forces the man never to doubt
        > himself. It gives him the assurance
        > he can do anything he pleases,
        > for he sees clearly into everything.
        > And he is courageous because
        > he is clear, and he stops at nothing
        > because he is clear. But all that
        > is a mistake; it is like something
        > incomplete.
        >
        >
        > If the man yields to this make-
        > believe power, he has succumbed
        > to his second enemy and will
        > be patient when he should rush.
        > And he will fumble with learning
        > until he winds up incapable of
        > learning anything more. His second
        > enemy has just stopped him cold
        > from trying to become a man of
        > knowledge. Instead, the man may
        > turn into a buoyant warrior, or
        > a clown. Yet the clarity for which
        > he has paid so dearly will never
        > change to darkness and fear again.
        > He will be clear as long as he lives,
        > but he will no longer learn, or
        > yearn for, anything. He must do
        > what he did with fear: he must
        > defy his clarity and use it only
        > to see, and wait patiently and
        > measure carefully before taking
        > new steps; he must think, above
        > all, that his clarity is almost
        > a mistake.
        >
        > And a moment will come when
        > he will understand that his clarity
        > was only a point before his eyes.
        > And thus he will have overcome
        > his second enemy, and will arrive
        > at a position where nothing can
        > harm him anymore.
        >
        > This will not be a mistake. It will
        > not be only a point before his
        > eyes. It will be true power. He
        > will know at this point that the
        > power he has been pursuing for
        > so long is finally his. He can do
        > with it whatever he pleases. His
        > ally is at his command. His wish
        > is the rule. He sees all that is
        > around him. But he has also
        > come across his third enemy:
        > (3) Power! Power is the strongest
        > of all enemies. And naturally
        > the easiest thing to do is to
        > give in; after all, the man is
        > truly invincible. He commands;
        > he begins by taking calculated
        > risks, andends in making rules,
        > because he is a master.
        >
        > A man at this stage hardly notices
        > his third enemy closing in on him.
        > And suddenly, without knowing,
        > he will certainly have lost the battle.
        > His enemy will have turned him
        > into a cruel, capricious man, but
        > he will never lose his clarity or
        > his power. A man who is defeated
        > by power dies without really knowing
        > how to handle it. Power is only
        > a burden upon his fate. Such
        > a man has no command over
        > himself, and cannot tell when
        > or how to use his power.
        >
        > Once one of these enemies
        > overpowers a man there is
        > nothing he can do. It is not
        > possible, for instance, that
        > a man who is defeated by
        > power may see his error and
        > mend his ways. Once a man
        > gives in he is through. If,
        > however, he is temporarily
        > blinded by power, and then
        > refuses it, his battle is still
        > on. That means he is still
        > trying to become a man of
        > knowledge. A man is defeated
        > only when he no longer tries,
        > and abandons himself. He
        > has to come to realize that
        > the power he has seemingly
        > conquered is in reality never
        > his. He must keep himself
        > in line at all times, handling
        > carefully and faithfully all
        > that he has learned. If he
        > can see that clarity and
        > power, without his control
        > over himself, are worse than
        > mistakes, he will reach
        > a point where everything
        > is held in check. He will
        > know then when and how
        > to use his power.
        >
        > And thus he will have
        > defeated his third enemy.
        > The man will be, by then,
        > at the end of his journey
        > of learning, and almost
        > without warning he will
        > come upon the last of his
        > enemies: (4.) Old age!
        > This enemy is the cruelest
        > of all, the one he won't
        > be able to defeat completely,
        > but only fight away.
        >
        > This is the time when a
        > man has no more fears,
        > no more impatient clarity
        > of mind--a time when all
        > his power is in check, but
        > also the time when he has
        > an unyielding desire to rest.
        >
        > If he gives in totally to his
        > desire to lie down and forget,
        > if he soothes himself in
        > tiredness, he will have lost
        > his last round, and his enemy
        > will cut him down into a
        > feeble old creature. His
        > desire to retreat will overrule
        > all his clarity, his power,
        > and his knowledge.
        >
        > But if the man sloughs off
        > his tiredness, and lives his
        > fate though, he can then be
        > called a man of knowledge,
        > if only for the brief moment
        > when he succeeds in fighting
        > off his last, invincible enemy.
        > That moment of clarity, power,
        > and knowledge is enough.
        >
        > Anything is one of a million
        > paths. Therefore you must
        > always keep in mind that a
        > path is only a path; if you feel
        > you should not follow it, you
        > must not stay with it under
        > any conditions.
        >
        > To have such clarity you must
        > lead a disciplined life. Only
        > then will you know that any
        > path is only a path and there
        > is no affront, to oneself or to
        > others, in dropping it if that
        > is what your heart tells you to
        > do.
        >
        > But your decision to keep on
        > the path or to leave it must
        > be free of fear or ambition.
        >
        > I warn you. Look at every
        > path closely and deliberately.
        > Try it as many times as you
        > think necessary. This question
        > is one that only a very old
        > man asks. Does this path have
        > a heart?
        >
        > All paths are the same: they
        > lead nowhere. They are paths
        > going through the bush, or
        > into the bush. In my own life
        > I could say I have traversed
        > long long paths, but I am not
        > anywhere.
        >
        > Does this path have a heart?
        > If it does, the path is good;
        > if it doesn't, it is of no use.
        >
        > Both paths lead nowhere;
        > but one has a heart, the
        > other doesn't. One makes
        > for a joyful journey; as long
        > as you follow it, you are one
        > with it. The other will make
        > you curse your life. One makes
        > you strong; the other weakens
        > you.
        >
        > Before you embark on any path
        > [once again] ask the question:
        >
        > Does this path have a heart?
        >
        > If the answer is no, you will know
        > it, and then you must choose
        > another path. The trouble is
        > nobody asks the question; and
        > when a man finally realizes that
        > he has taken a path without a
        > heart, the path is ready to kill
        > him. At that point very few men
        > can stop to deliberate, and leave
        > the path. A path without a heart
        > is never enjoyable. You have to
        > work hard even to take it.
        >
        > On the other hand, a path with
        > heart is easy; it does not make
        > you work at liking it.
        >
        > I have told you that to choose
        > a path you must be free from
        > fear and ambition. The desire
        > to learn is not ambition. It is
        > our lot as men to want to know.
        >
        > The path without a heart will
        > turn against men and destroy
        > them. It does not take much
        > to die, and to seek death is
        > to seek nothing.
        >
        > For me there is only the traveling
        > on the paths that have a heart,
        > on any path that may have a heart.
        > There I travel, and the only worthwhile
        > challenge for me is to traverse
        > its full length. And there I travel--
        > looking, looking, breathlessly.
        >
        > 1 fear = what we experience
        > clashes on close examination
        > with our thoughts. What he
        > learns is never what he pictured,
        > or imagined, and so he begins
        > to be afraid. (fear is the mind killer!)
        >
        > 2 Clarity = clarity of mind which
        > erases fear. By then a man knows
        > his desires; he knows how to
        > satisfy those desires. He can
        > anticipate the new steps of learning
        > and a sharp clarity surrounds
        > everything. The man feels that
        > nothing is concealed.
        >
        > 3 power = He has to come to
        > realize that the power he has
        > seemingly conquered is in reality
        > never his. He must keep himself
        > in line at all times, handling
        > carefully and faithfully all that
        > he has learned. If he can see
        > that clarity and power, without
        > his control over himself, are
        > worse than mistakes, he will
        > reach a point where everything
        > is held in check. He will know
        > then when and how to use his
        > power. And thus he will have
        > defeated his third enemy
        >
        > 4. OLd AGE= This is the time
        > when a man has no more fears,
        > no more impatient clarity of mind--
        > a time when all his power is in
        > check, but also the time when
        > he has an unyielding desire to
        > rest. If he gives in totally to his
        > desire to lie down and forget,
        > if he soothes himself in tiredness,
        > he will have lost his last round,
        > and his enemy will cut him down
        > into a feeble old creature. His
        > desire to retreat will overrule
        > all his clarity, his power, and
        > his knowledge." [end]
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Non eckchains, Thanks for the opines. I, also, liked the quote: Don t talk of different religions. The one reality is everywhere, not just in a Hindu,
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 26, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Non eckchains,
          Thanks for the opines.
          I, also, liked the quote:

          "Don't talk of different
          religions. The one reality
          is everywhere, not just
          in a Hindu, or a Muslim,
          or anywhere else!

          Realize: your awareness
          is the truth about God.

          - Lalla 14th Century North Indian mystic"

          It's interesting to see how
          many renown people, even
          today, plagiarize and/or
          use "ghost writers" in order
          to save time and effort.

          Twitchell, certainly, wasn't
          the first plagiarist and won't
          be the last. I don't think
          PT used ghost writers, but
          Klemp comes close to doing
          so because he publishes
          the articles mailed to him
          using pseudonyms for these
          Eckists, but under his byline.

          These Eckists give Klemp the
          ideas for his articles and, then,
          present the embellished filler
          which he merely recycles and
          comments/tweaks upon. So,
          in a way, HK's fans are also
          his ghost writers. The use of
          pseudonyms make them ghost
          like. Therefore, HK could have
          Joan, Peter, or other select staff
          members, from time-to-time,
          write the "letters," supposedly,
          mailed in to the ESC. I've noticed,
          too, that with certain questions
          submitted in these ECK Pubs
          that, at times, no name or even
          initials are given for the person
          submitting the questions. It
          appears, to me, that if Klemp
          wants to address a specific
          topic, which seems stuck in
          his craw, that he'll pretend he's
          an EKist and ask himself the
          question in order to give himself
          a platform to rebuke his H.I.s

          But, what should we expect?!
          Eckankar is similar to other
          cults with their secrecy and
          dishonestly in order to fulfill
          the agendas and goals of the
          hierarchy and/or the sole owner
          of the group like Klemp is
          to Eckankar.

          And, Eckankar is not unlike
          Scientology or Mormonism
          in that there are many nice
          people that have become
          fooled and deluded, or more
          deluded, by the lies and
          propaganda which has brain-
          washed them over the years.
          Plus, all three of these religions
          were founded by liars and
          conmen. Paul Twitchell,
          L. Ron Hubbard, and Joseph
          Smith... all were psychotic!

          Plus, Religion becomes not
          only a security blanket but,
          also, a means for the introverted
          masses to socialize while
          the extroverts climb the
          hierarchical ladder to even
          greater ego trips with power
          and titles and initiations
          to bind them, even more
          so, to the illusion of "spirituality."
          Membership in a religion
          is controlled by one clever/
          deceitful individual in charge.

          And, "consciousness" is
          limited by rules, scripture,
          expected behaviour, organizational
          structure, tradition, busy
          work, "acceptance" and a
          group consciousness of
          naive, and closed minded
          conformists who view themselves
          and their religion as "unique"
          and as the highest path to
          God.

          Prometheus

          "Non" eckchains wrote:
          I used to read Castaneda's books and found them interesting, but just because
          they were written by an anthropologist doesn't mean that they are still probably
          fiction. As I read the quotes of don Juan now, it seems obvious that this is not
          how even a teacher or professor or know it all would speak in person. An actor
          in a movie would have a hard time reciting all of that non stop without at some
          point eliciting, well laughter. I used to take books very seriously, and that
          there must be some level of Authority, otherwise it would never have gotten
          published. right? That's why Twit was able to get away with his plagiarism,
          because those old books were written with an air of Authority, even if there was
          not a shred of truth or evidence to it. He could copy and paste as much as he
          wanted to and quote fake eck masters spouting their mouths off, but it was after
          all just Science Fiction. Hubbard did the same thing with Scientology. Make it
          SEEM scientific or empirical or experiential and for many that is "proof"
          enough.

          Anyway, I think there is some truth here and there, but I am literally unable
          anymore to accept anything as So just because it is stated as So. Just My
          opinion. Sure we are programed by our cultural conditioning, but we are also
          biological material beings and savants when it comes to imagination and
          language, and utterly curious, as well as really dumb. Oh how I long for being
          OK with not knowing it all. And I am also very curious and won't stop wanting to
          learn more and more.....

          I like this from the same web page:

          Don't talk of different religions.
          The one reality is everywhere,
          not just in a Hindu, or a Muslim,
          or anywhere else! Realize:
          your awareness is
          the truth about God.

          - Lalla 14th Century North Indian mystic

          Non ; )

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > This is from the link in my
          > previous post.
          >
          > "A man of knowledge is one
          > who has followed truthfully
          > the hardships of learning,
          > a man who has, without rushing
          > or without faltering, gone
          > as far as he can in unraveling
          > the secrets of power and
          > knowledge. To become a
          > man of knowledge one must
          > challenge and defeat his
          > four natural enemies.
          >
          > When a man starts to learn,
          > he is never clear about his
          > objectives. His purpose is
          > faulty; his intent is vague.
          >
          > (1) He hopes for rewards
          > that will never materialize
          > for he knows nothing of
          > the hardships of learning.
          >
          > He slowly begins to learn--
          > bit by bit at first, then in
          > big chunks. And his thoughts
          > soon clash. What he learns
          > is never what he pictured,
          > or imagined, and so he
          > begins to be afraid. Learning
          > is never what one expects.
          >
          > Every step of learning is
          > a new task, and the fear
          > the man is experiencing
          > begins to mount mercilessly,
          > unyieldingly. His purpose
          > becomes a battlefield.
          > And thus he has stumbled
          > upon the first of his natural
          > enemies: fear!
          >
          > A terrible enemy--treacherous,
          > and difficult to overcome.
          > It remains concealed at every
          > turn of the way, prowling,
          > waiting. And if the man, terrified
          > in its presence, runs away,
          > his enemy will have put an
          > end to his quest and he will
          > never learn. He will never
          > become a man of knowledge.
          > He will perhaps be a bully,
          > or a harmless, scared man;
          > at any rate, he will be a
          > defeated man. His first enemy
          > will have put an end to his
          > cravings. It is not possible
          > for a man to abandon himself
          > to fear for years, then finally
          > conquer it. If he gives in to
          > fear he will never conquer it,
          > because he will shy away from
          > learning and never try again.
          >
          > But if he tries to learn for years
          > in the midst of his fear, he
          > will eventually conquer it
          > because he will never have
          > really abandoned himself
          > to it. Therefore he must not
          > run away. He must defy his
          > fear, and in spite of it he
          > must take the next step in
          > learning, and the next, and
          > the next.
          >
          > He must be fully afraid, and
          > yet he must not stop. That
          > is the rule! And a moment
          > will come when his first enemy
          > retreats. The man begins to
          > feel sure of himself. His intent
          > becomes stronger. Learning
          > is no longer a terrifying task.
          > When this joyful moment comes,
          > the man can say without hesitation
          > that he has defeated his first
          > natural enemy. It happens little
          > by little, and yet the fear is
          > vanquished suddenly and fast.
          >
          > Once a man has vanquished
          > fear, he is free from it for the
          > rest of his life because, instead
          > of fear, he has acquired clarity--
          > a clarity of mind which erases
          > fear. By then a man knows his
          > desires; he knows how to satisfy
          > those desires. He can anticipate
          > the new steps of learning and
          > a sharp clarity surrounds everything.
          >
          > The man feels that nothing is
          > concealed. And thus he has
          > encountered his second enemy:
          > (2) Clarity! That clarity of mind,
          > which is so hard to obtain,
          > dispels fear, but also blinds.
          > It forces the man never to doubt
          > himself. It gives him the assurance
          > he can do anything he pleases,
          > for he sees clearly into everything.
          > And he is courageous because
          > he is clear, and he stops at nothing
          > because he is clear. But all that
          > is a mistake; it is like something
          > incomplete.
          >
          >
          > If the man yields to this make-
          > believe power, he has succumbed
          > to his second enemy and will
          > be patient when he should rush.
          > And he will fumble with learning
          > until he winds up incapable of
          > learning anything more. His second
          > enemy has just stopped him cold
          > from trying to become a man of
          > knowledge. Instead, the man may
          > turn into a buoyant warrior, or
          > a clown. Yet the clarity for which
          > he has paid so dearly will never
          > change to darkness and fear again.
          > He will be clear as long as he lives,
          > but he will no longer learn, or
          > yearn for, anything. He must do
          > what he did with fear: he must
          > defy his clarity and use it only
          > to see, and wait patiently and
          > measure carefully before taking
          > new steps; he must think, above
          > all, that his clarity is almost
          > a mistake.
          >
          > And a moment will come when
          > he will understand that his clarity
          > was only a point before his eyes.
          > And thus he will have overcome
          > his second enemy, and will arrive
          > at a position where nothing can
          > harm him anymore.
          >
          > This will not be a mistake. It will
          > not be only a point before his
          > eyes. It will be true power. He
          > will know at this point that the
          > power he has been pursuing for
          > so long is finally his. He can do
          > with it whatever he pleases. His
          > ally is at his command. His wish
          > is the rule. He sees all that is
          > around him. But he has also
          > come across his third enemy:
          > (3) Power! Power is the strongest
          > of all enemies. And naturally
          > the easiest thing to do is to
          > give in; after all, the man is
          > truly invincible. He commands;
          > he begins by taking calculated
          > risks, andends in making rules,
          > because he is a master.
          >
          > A man at this stage hardly notices
          > his third enemy closing in on him.
          > And suddenly, without knowing,
          > he will certainly have lost the battle.
          > His enemy will have turned him
          > into a cruel, capricious man, but
          > he will never lose his clarity or
          > his power. A man who is defeated
          > by power dies without really knowing
          > how to handle it. Power is only
          > a burden upon his fate. Such
          > a man has no command over
          > himself, and cannot tell when
          > or how to use his power.
          >
          > Once one of these enemies
          > overpowers a man there is
          > nothing he can do. It is not
          > possible, for instance, that
          > a man who is defeated by
          > power may see his error and
          > mend his ways. Once a man
          > gives in he is through. If,
          > however, he is temporarily
          > blinded by power, and then
          > refuses it, his battle is still
          > on. That means he is still
          > trying to become a man of
          > knowledge. A man is defeated
          > only when he no longer tries,
          > and abandons himself. He
          > has to come to realize that
          > the power he has seemingly
          > conquered is in reality never
          > his. He must keep himself
          > in line at all times, handling
          > carefully and faithfully all
          > that he has learned. If he
          > can see that clarity and
          > power, without his control
          > over himself, are worse than
          > mistakes, he will reach
          > a point where everything
          > is held in check. He will
          > know then when and how
          > to use his power.
          >
          > And thus he will have
          > defeated his third enemy.
          > The man will be, by then,
          > at the end of his journey
          > of learning, and almost
          > without warning he will
          > come upon the last of his
          > enemies: (4.) Old age!
          > This enemy is the cruelest
          > of all, the one he won't
          > be able to defeat completely,
          > but only fight away.
          >
          > This is the time when a
          > man has no more fears,
          > no more impatient clarity
          > of mind--a time when all
          > his power is in check, but
          > also the time when he has
          > an unyielding desire to rest.
          >
          > If he gives in totally to his
          > desire to lie down and forget,
          > if he soothes himself in
          > tiredness, he will have lost
          > his last round, and his enemy
          > will cut him down into a
          > feeble old creature. His
          > desire to retreat will overrule
          > all his clarity, his power,
          > and his knowledge.
          >
          > But if the man sloughs off
          > his tiredness, and lives his
          > fate though, he can then be
          > called a man of knowledge,
          > if only for the brief moment
          > when he succeeds in fighting
          > off his last, invincible enemy.
          > That moment of clarity, power,
          > and knowledge is enough.
          >
          > Anything is one of a million
          > paths. Therefore you must
          > always keep in mind that a
          > path is only a path; if you feel
          > you should not follow it, you
          > must not stay with it under
          > any conditions.
          >
          > To have such clarity you must
          > lead a disciplined life. Only
          > then will you know that any
          > path is only a path and there
          > is no affront, to oneself or to
          > others, in dropping it if that
          > is what your heart tells you to
          > do.
          >
          > But your decision to keep on
          > the path or to leave it must
          > be free of fear or ambition.
          >
          > I warn you. Look at every
          > path closely and deliberately.
          > Try it as many times as you
          > think necessary. This question
          > is one that only a very old
          > man asks. Does this path have
          > a heart?
          >
          > All paths are the same: they
          > lead nowhere. They are paths
          > going through the bush, or
          > into the bush. In my own life
          > I could say I have traversed
          > long long paths, but I am not
          > anywhere.
          >
          > Does this path have a heart?
          > If it does, the path is good;
          > if it doesn't, it is of no use.
          >
          > Both paths lead nowhere;
          > but one has a heart, the
          > other doesn't. One makes
          > for a joyful journey; as long
          > as you follow it, you are one
          > with it. The other will make
          > you curse your life. One makes
          > you strong; the other weakens
          > you.
          >
          > Before you embark on any path
          > [once again] ask the question:
          >
          > Does this path have a heart?
          >
          > If the answer is no, you will know
          > it, and then you must choose
          > another path. The trouble is
          > nobody asks the question; and
          > when a man finally realizes that
          > he has taken a path without a
          > heart, the path is ready to kill
          > him. At that point very few men
          > can stop to deliberate, and leave
          > the path. A path without a heart
          > is never enjoyable. You have to
          > work hard even to take it.
          >
          > On the other hand, a path with
          > heart is easy; it does not make
          > you work at liking it.
          >
          > I have told you that to choose
          > a path you must be free from
          > fear and ambition. The desire
          > to learn is not ambition. It is
          > our lot as men to want to know.
          >
          > The path without a heart will
          > turn against men and destroy
          > them. It does not take much
          > to die, and to seek death is
          > to seek nothing.
          >
          > For me there is only the traveling
          > on the paths that have a heart,
          > on any path that may have a heart.
          > There I travel, and the only worthwhile
          > challenge for me is to traverse
          > its full length. And there I travel--
          > looking, looking, breathlessly.
          >
          > 1 fear = what we experience
          > clashes on close examination
          > with our thoughts. What he
          > learns is never what he pictured,
          > or imagined, and so he begins
          > to be afraid. (fear is the mind killer!)
          >
          > 2 Clarity = clarity of mind which
          > erases fear. By then a man knows
          > his desires; he knows how to
          > satisfy those desires. He can
          > anticipate the new steps of learning
          > and a sharp clarity surrounds
          > everything. The man feels that
          > nothing is concealed.
          >
          > 3 power = He has to come to
          > realize that the power he has
          > seemingly conquered is in reality
          > never his. He must keep himself
          > in line at all times, handling
          > carefully and faithfully all that
          > he has learned. If he can see
          > that clarity and power, without
          > his control over himself, are
          > worse than mistakes, he will
          > reach a point where everything
          > is held in check. He will know
          > then when and how to use his
          > power. And thus he will have
          > defeated his third enemy
          >
          > 4. OLd AGE= This is the time
          > when a man has no more fears,
          > no more impatient clarity of mind--
          > a time when all his power is in
          > check, but also the time when
          > he has an unyielding desire to
          > rest. If he gives in totally to his
          > desire to lie down and forget,
          > if he soothes himself in tiredness,
          > he will have lost his last round,
          > and his enemy will cut him down
          > into a feeble old creature. His
          > desire to retreat will overrule
          > all his clarity, his power, and
          > his knowledge." [end]
        • Non
          Thanks Prometheus, as far as psychotic religious leaders and the introverted followers, I think that often the followers bring their own bias, prejudice and
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 27, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks Prometheus,

            as far as psychotic religious leaders and the introverted followers, I think that often the followers bring their own bias, prejudice and even hatred to whom they follow. They are looking for someone to give them a personification of who they really are. Those who don't question much may tend to gravitate toward an authoritarian leader. If the leader is a pathological liar, that doesn't seem to bother them. But then I'm sure it is also much more complicated than that. Many may not have the education or experience to know better and are easily persuaded. (Current Romney politics and Tea Bagers is a pretty good example.)

            In some ways, trying to have a discussion with a follower is worse than if you were to have that same discussion with the Cult leader himself, like HK. At least with HK his idiocy would be so obvious that he would have to excuse himself and leave the room. I've seen similar things with Scientology leaders. They usually through a tantrum and leave as they rip the mics off of themselves. Klemp would probably rip his clothes off. : )

            Non ; )

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            >Hello Non eckchains,
            Thanks for the opines.
            I, also, liked the quote:

            "Don't talk of different
            religions. The one reality
            is everywhere, not just
            in a Hindu, or a Muslim,
            or anywhere else!

            Realize: your awareness
            is the truth about God.

            - Lalla 14th Century North Indian mystic"

            It's interesting to see how
            many renown people, even
            today, plagiarize and/or
            use "ghost writers" in order
            to save time and effort.

            Twitchell, certainly, wasn't
            the first plagiarist and won't
            be the last. I don't think
            PT used ghost writers, but
            Klemp comes close to doing
            so because he publishes
            the articles mailed to him
            using pseudonyms for these
            Eckists, but under his byline.

            These Eckists give Klemp the
            ideas for his articles and, then,
            present the embellished filler
            which he merely recycles and
            comments/tweaks upon. So,
            in a way, HK's fans are also
            his ghost writers. The use of
            pseudonyms make them ghost
            like. Therefore, HK could have
            Joan, Peter, or other select staff
            members, from time-to-time,
            write the "letters," supposedly,
            mailed in to the ESC. I've noticed,
            too, that with certain questions
            submitted in these ECK Pubs
            that, at times, no name or even
            initials are given for the person
            submitting the questions. It
            appears, to me, that if Klemp
            wants to address a specific
            topic, which seems stuck in
            his craw, that he'll pretend he's
            an EKist and ask himself the
            question in order to give himself
            a platform to rebuke his H.I.s

            But, what should we expect?!
            Eckankar is similar to other
            cults with their secrecy and
            dishonestly in order to fulfill
            the agendas and goals of the
            hierarchy and/or the sole owner
            of the group like Klemp is
            to Eckankar.

            And, Eckankar is not unlike
            Scientology or Mormonism
            in that there are many nice
            people that have become
            fooled and deluded, or more
            deluded, by the lies and
            propaganda which has brain-
            washed them over the years.
            Plus, all three of these religions
            were founded by liars and
            conmen. Paul Twitchell,
            L. Ron Hubbard, and Joseph
            Smith... all were psychotic!

            Plus, Religion becomes not
            only a security blanket but,
            also, a means for the introverted
            masses to socialize while
            the extroverts climb the
            hierarchical ladder to even
            greater ego trips with power
            and titles and initiations
            to bind them, even more
            so, to the illusion of "spirituality."
            Membership in a religion
            is controlled by one clever/
            deceitful individual in charge.

            And, "consciousness" is
            limited by rules, scripture,
            expected behaviour, organizational
            structure, tradition, busy
            work, "acceptance" and a
            group consciousness of
            naive, and closed minded
            conformists who view themselves
            and their religion as "unique"
            and as the highest path to
            God.

            Prometheus

            "Non" eckchains wrote:
            I used to read Castaneda's books and found them interesting, but just because
            they were written by an anthropologist doesn't mean that they are still probably
            fiction. As I read the quotes of don Juan now, it seems obvious that this is not
            how even a teacher or professor or know it all would speak in person. An actor
            in a movie would have a hard time reciting all of that non stop without at some
            point eliciting, well laughter. I used to take books very seriously, and that
            there must be some level of Authority, otherwise it would never have gotten
            published. right? That's why Twit was able to get away with his plagiarism,
            because those old books were written with an air of Authority, even if there was
            not a shred of truth or evidence to it. He could copy and paste as much as he
            wanted to and quote fake eck masters spouting their mouths off, but it was after
            all just Science Fiction. Hubbard did the same thing with Scientology. Make it
            SEEM scientific or empirical or experiential and for many that is "proof"
            enough.

            Anyway, I think there is some truth here and there, but I am literally unable
            anymore to accept anything as So just because it is stated as So. Just My
            opinion. Sure we are programed by our cultural conditioning, but we are also
            biological material beings and savants when it comes to imagination and
            language, and utterly curious, as well as really dumb. Oh how I long for being
            OK with not knowing it all. And I am also very curious and won't stop wanting to
            learn more and more.....

            I like this from the same web page:

            Don't talk of different religions.
            The one reality is everywhere,
            not just in a Hindu, or a Muslim,
            or anywhere else! Realize:
            your awareness is
            the truth about God.

            - Lalla 14th Century North Indian mystic

            Non ; )

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > This is from the link in my
            > previous post.
            >
            > "A man of knowledge is one
            > who has followed truthfully
            > the hardships of learning,
            > a man who has, without rushing
            > or without faltering, gone
            > as far as he can in unraveling
            > the secrets of power and
            > knowledge. To become a
            > man of knowledge one must
            > challenge and defeat his
            > four natural enemies.
            >
            > When a man starts to learn,
            > he is never clear about his
            > objectives. His purpose is
            > faulty; his intent is vague.
            >
            > (1) He hopes for rewards
            > that will never materialize
            > for he knows nothing of
            > the hardships of learning.
            >
            > He slowly begins to learn--
            > bit by bit at first, then in
            > big chunks. And his thoughts
            > soon clash. What he learns
            > is never what he pictured,
            > or imagined, and so he
            > begins to be afraid. Learning
            > is never what one expects.
            >
            > Every step of learning is
            > a new task, and the fear
            > the man is experiencing
            > begins to mount mercilessly,
            > unyieldingly. His purpose
            > becomes a battlefield.
            > And thus he has stumbled
            > upon the first of his natural
            > enemies: fear!
            >
            > A terrible enemy--treacherous,
            > and difficult to overcome.
            > It remains concealed at every
            > turn of the way, prowling,
            > waiting. And if the man, terrified
            > in its presence, runs away,
            > his enemy will have put an
            > end to his quest and he will
            > never learn. He will never
            > become a man of knowledge.
            > He will perhaps be a bully,
            > or a harmless, scared man;
            > at any rate, he will be a
            > defeated man. His first enemy
            > will have put an end to his
            > cravings. It is not possible
            > for a man to abandon himself
            > to fear for years, then finally
            > conquer it. If he gives in to
            > fear he will never conquer it,
            > because he will shy away from
            > learning and never try again.
            >
            > But if he tries to learn for years
            > in the midst of his fear, he
            > will eventually conquer it
            > because he will never have
            > really abandoned himself
            > to it. Therefore he must not
            > run away. He must defy his
            > fear, and in spite of it he
            > must take the next step in
            > learning, and the next, and
            > the next.
            >
            > He must be fully afraid, and
            > yet he must not stop. That
            > is the rule! And a moment
            > will come when his first enemy
            > retreats. The man begins to
            > feel sure of himself. His intent
            > becomes stronger. Learning
            > is no longer a terrifying task.
            > When this joyful moment comes,
            > the man can say without hesitation
            > that he has defeated his first
            > natural enemy. It happens little
            > by little, and yet the fear is
            > vanquished suddenly and fast.
            >
            > Once a man has vanquished
            > fear, he is free from it for the
            > rest of his life because, instead
            > of fear, he has acquired clarity--
            > a clarity of mind which erases
            > fear. By then a man knows his
            > desires; he knows how to satisfy
            > those desires. He can anticipate
            > the new steps of learning and
            > a sharp clarity surrounds everything.
            >
            > The man feels that nothing is
            > concealed. And thus he has
            > encountered his second enemy:
            > (2) Clarity! That clarity of mind,
            > which is so hard to obtain,
            > dispels fear, but also blinds.
            > It forces the man never to doubt
            > himself. It gives him the assurance
            > he can do anything he pleases,
            > for he sees clearly into everything.
            > And he is courageous because
            > he is clear, and he stops at nothing
            > because he is clear. But all that
            > is a mistake; it is like something
            > incomplete.
            >
            >
            > If the man yields to this make-
            > believe power, he has succumbed
            > to his second enemy and will
            > be patient when he should rush.
            > And he will fumble with learning
            > until he winds up incapable of
            > learning anything more. His second
            > enemy has just stopped him cold
            > from trying to become a man of
            > knowledge. Instead, the man may
            > turn into a buoyant warrior, or
            > a clown. Yet the clarity for which
            > he has paid so dearly will never
            > change to darkness and fear again.
            > He will be clear as long as he lives,
            > but he will no longer learn, or
            > yearn for, anything. He must do
            > what he did with fear: he must
            > defy his clarity and use it only
            > to see, and wait patiently and
            > measure carefully before taking
            > new steps; he must think, above
            > all, that his clarity is almost
            > a mistake.
            >
            > And a moment will come when
            > he will understand that his clarity
            > was only a point before his eyes.
            > And thus he will have overcome
            > his second enemy, and will arrive
            > at a position where nothing can
            > harm him anymore.
            >
            > This will not be a mistake. It will
            > not be only a point before his
            > eyes. It will be true power. He
            > will know at this point that the
            > power he has been pursuing for
            > so long is finally his. He can do
            > with it whatever he pleases. His
            > ally is at his command. His wish
            > is the rule. He sees all that is
            > around him. But he has also
            > come across his third enemy:
            > (3) Power! Power is the strongest
            > of all enemies. And naturally
            > the easiest thing to do is to
            > give in; after all, the man is
            > truly invincible. He commands;
            > he begins by taking calculated
            > risks, andends in making rules,
            > because he is a master.
            >
            > A man at this stage hardly notices
            > his third enemy closing in on him.
            > And suddenly, without knowing,
            > he will certainly have lost the battle.
            > His enemy will have turned him
            > into a cruel, capricious man, but
            > he will never lose his clarity or
            > his power. A man who is defeated
            > by power dies without really knowing
            > how to handle it. Power is only
            > a burden upon his fate. Such
            > a man has no command over
            > himself, and cannot tell when
            > or how to use his power.
            >
            > Once one of these enemies
            > overpowers a man there is
            > nothing he can do. It is not
            > possible, for instance, that
            > a man who is defeated by
            > power may see his error and
            > mend his ways. Once a man
            > gives in he is through. If,
            > however, he is temporarily
            > blinded by power, and then
            > refuses it, his battle is still
            > on. That means he is still
            > trying to become a man of
            > knowledge. A man is defeated
            > only when he no longer tries,
            > and abandons himself. He
            > has to come to realize that
            > the power he has seemingly
            > conquered is in reality never
            > his. He must keep himself
            > in line at all times, handling
            > carefully and faithfully all
            > that he has learned. If he
            > can see that clarity and
            > power, without his control
            > over himself, are worse than
            > mistakes, he will reach
            > a point where everything
            > is held in check. He will
            > know then when and how
            > to use his power.
            >
            > And thus he will have
            > defeated his third enemy.
            > The man will be, by then,
            > at the end of his journey
            > of learning, and almost
            > without warning he will
            > come upon the last of his
            > enemies: (4.) Old age!
            > This enemy is the cruelest
            > of all, the one he won't
            > be able to defeat completely,
            > but only fight away.
            >
            > This is the time when a
            > man has no more fears,
            > no more impatient clarity
            > of mind--a time when all
            > his power is in check, but
            > also the time when he has
            > an unyielding desire to rest.
            >
            > If he gives in totally to his
            > desire to lie down and forget,
            > if he soothes himself in
            > tiredness, he will have lost
            > his last round, and his enemy
            > will cut him down into a
            > feeble old creature. His
            > desire to retreat will overrule
            > all his clarity, his power,
            > and his knowledge.
            >
            > But if the man sloughs off
            > his tiredness, and lives his
            > fate though, he can then be
            > called a man of knowledge,
            > if only for the brief moment
            > when he succeeds in fighting
            > off his last, invincible enemy.
            > That moment of clarity, power,
            > and knowledge is enough.
            >
            > Anything is one of a million
            > paths. Therefore you must
            > always keep in mind that a
            > path is only a path; if you feel
            > you should not follow it, you
            > must not stay with it under
            > any conditions.
            >
            > To have such clarity you must
            > lead a disciplined life. Only
            > then will you know that any
            > path is only a path and there
            > is no affront, to oneself or to
            > others, in dropping it if that
            > is what your heart tells you to
            > do.
            >
            > But your decision to keep on
            > the path or to leave it must
            > be free of fear or ambition.
            >
            > I warn you. Look at every
            > path closely and deliberately.
            > Try it as many times as you
            > think necessary. This question
            > is one that only a very old
            > man asks. Does this path have
            > a heart?
            >
            > All paths are the same: they
            > lead nowhere. They are paths
            > going through the bush, or
            > into the bush. In my own life
            > I could say I have traversed
            > long long paths, but I am not
            > anywhere.
            >
            > Does this path have a heart?
            > If it does, the path is good;
            > if it doesn't, it is of no use.
            >
            > Both paths lead nowhere;
            > but one has a heart, the
            > other doesn't. One makes
            > for a joyful journey; as long
            > as you follow it, you are one
            > with it. The other will make
            > you curse your life. One makes
            > you strong; the other weakens
            > you.
            >
            > Before you embark on any path
            > [once again] ask the question:
            >
            > Does this path have a heart?
            >
            > If the answer is no, you will know
            > it, and then you must choose
            > another path. The trouble is
            > nobody asks the question; and
            > when a man finally realizes that
            > he has taken a path without a
            > heart, the path is ready to kill
            > him. At that point very few men
            > can stop to deliberate, and leave
            > the path. A path without a heart
            > is never enjoyable. You have to
            > work hard even to take it.
            >
            > On the other hand, a path with
            > heart is easy; it does not make
            > you work at liking it.
            >
            > I have told you that to choose
            > a path you must be free from
            > fear and ambition. The desire
            > to learn is not ambition. It is
            > our lot as men to want to know.
            >
            > The path without a heart will
            > turn against men and destroy
            > them. It does not take much
            > to die, and to seek death is
            > to seek nothing.
            >
            > For me there is only the traveling
            > on the paths that have a heart,
            > on any path that may have a heart.
            > There I travel, and the only worthwhile
            > challenge for me is to traverse
            > its full length. And there I travel--
            > looking, looking, breathlessly.
            >
            > 1 fear = what we experience
            > clashes on close examination
            > with our thoughts. What he
            > learns is never what he pictured,
            > or imagined, and so he begins
            > to be afraid. (fear is the mind killer!)
            >
            > 2 Clarity = clarity of mind which
            > erases fear. By then a man knows
            > his desires; he knows how to
            > satisfy those desires. He can
            > anticipate the new steps of learning
            > and a sharp clarity surrounds
            > everything. The man feels that
            > nothing is concealed.
            >
            > 3 power = He has to come to
            > realize that the power he has
            > seemingly conquered is in reality
            > never his. He must keep himself
            > in line at all times, handling
            > carefully and faithfully all that
            > he has learned. If he can see
            > that clarity and power, without
            > his control over himself, are
            > worse than mistakes, he will
            > reach a point where everything
            > is held in check. He will know
            > then when and how to use his
            > power. And thus he will have
            > defeated his third enemy
            >
            > 4. OLd AGE= This is the time
            > when a man has no more fears,
            > no more impatient clarity of mind--
            > a time when all his power is in
            > check, but also the time when
            > he has an unyielding desire to
            > rest. If he gives in totally to his
            > desire to lie down and forget,
            > if he soothes himself in tiredness,
            > he will have lost his last round,
            > and his enemy will cut him down
            > into a feeble old creature. His
            > desire to retreat will overrule
            > all his clarity, his power, and
            > his knowledge." [end]
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Non eckchains, It does seem that a lot of what you ve pointed out can be applied to the nutty comments and defense of Eckankar by Paulji_teen. However, I
            Message 5 of 5 , Aug 28, 2012
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              Hello Non eckchains,
              It does seem that a lot
              of what you've pointed
              out can be applied to
              the nutty comments
              and defense of Eckankar
              by Paulji_teen. However,
              I doubt that she'll be
              able to see the symmetry
              or look into the mirror.

              Prometheus

              "Non" eckchains wrote:
              Thanks Prometheus,

              as far as psychotic religious leaders and the introverted followers, I think
              that often the followers bring their own bias, prejudice and even hatred to whom
              they follow. They are looking for someone to give them a personification of who
              they really are. Those who don't question much may tend to gravitate toward an
              authoritarian leader. If the leader is a pathological liar, that doesn't seem to
              bother them. But then I'm sure it is also much more complicated than that. Many
              may not have the education or experience to know better and are easily
              persuaded. (Current Romney politics and Tea Bagers is a pretty good example.)

              In some ways, trying to have a discussion with a follower is worse than if you
              were to have that same discussion with the Cult leader himself, like HK. At
              least with HK his idiocy would be so obvious that he would have to excuse
              himself and leave the room. I've seen similar things with Scientology leaders.
              They usually through a tantrum and leave as they rip the mics off of themselves.
              Klemp would probably rip his clothes off. : )

              Non ; )

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              >Hello Non eckchains,
              Thanks for the opines.
              I, also, liked the quote:

              "Don't talk of different
              religions. The one reality
              is everywhere, not just
              in a Hindu, or a Muslim,
              or anywhere else!

              Realize: your awareness
              is the truth about God.

              - Lalla 14th Century North Indian mystic"

              It's interesting to see how
              many renown people, even
              today, plagiarize and/or
              use "ghost writers" in order
              to save time and effort.

              Twitchell, certainly, wasn't
              the first plagiarist and won't
              be the last. I don't think
              PT used ghost writers, but
              Klemp comes close to doing
              so because he publishes
              the articles mailed to him
              using pseudonyms for these
              Eckists, but under his byline.

              These Eckists give Klemp the
              ideas for his articles and, then,
              present the embellished filler
              which he merely recycles and
              comments/tweaks upon. So,
              in a way, HK's fans are also
              his ghost writers. The use of
              pseudonyms make them ghost
              like. Therefore, HK could have
              Joan, Peter, or other select staff
              members, from time-to-time,
              write the "letters," supposedly,
              mailed in to the ESC. I've noticed,
              too, that with certain questions
              submitted in these ECK Pubs
              that, at times, no name or even
              initials are given for the person
              submitting the questions. It
              appears, to me, that if Klemp
              wants to address a specific
              topic, which seems stuck in
              his craw, that he'll pretend he's
              an EKist and ask himself the
              question in order to give himself
              a platform to rebuke his H.I.s

              But, what should we expect?!
              Eckankar is similar to other
              cults with their secrecy and
              dishonestly in order to fulfill
              the agendas and goals of the
              hierarchy and/or the sole owner
              of the group like Klemp is
              to Eckankar.

              And, Eckankar is not unlike
              Scientology or Mormonism
              in that there are many nice
              people that have become
              fooled and deluded, or more
              deluded, by the lies and
              propaganda which has brain-
              washed them over the years.
              Plus, all three of these religions
              were founded by liars and
              conmen. Paul Twitchell,
              L. Ron Hubbard, and Joseph
              Smith... all were psychotic!

              Plus, Religion becomes not
              only a security blanket but,
              also, a means for the introverted
              masses to socialize while
              the extroverts climb the
              hierarchical ladder to even
              greater ego trips with power
              and titles and initiations
              to bind them, even more
              so, to the illusion of "spirituality."
              Membership in a religion
              is controlled by one clever/
              deceitful individual in charge.

              And, "consciousness" is
              limited by rules, scripture,
              expected behaviour, organizational
              structure, tradition, busy
              work, "acceptance" and a
              group consciousness of
              naive, and closed minded
              conformists who view themselves
              and their religion as "unique"
              and as the highest path to
              God.

              Prometheus

              "Non" eckchains wrote:
              I used to read Castaneda's books and found them interesting, but just because
              they were written by an anthropologist doesn't mean that they are still probably
              fiction. As I read the quotes of don Juan now, it seems obvious that this is not
              how even a teacher or professor or know it all would speak in person. An actor
              in a movie would have a hard time reciting all of that non stop without at some
              point eliciting, well laughter. I used to take books very seriously, and that
              there must be some level of Authority, otherwise it would never have gotten
              published. right? That's why Twit was able to get away with his plagiarism,
              because those old books were written with an air of Authority, even if there was
              not a shred of truth or evidence to it. He could copy and paste as much as he
              wanted to and quote fake eck masters spouting their mouths off, but it was after
              all just Science Fiction. Hubbard did the same thing with Scientology. Make it
              SEEM scientific or empirical or experiential and for many that is "proof"
              enough.

              Anyway, I think there is some truth here and there, but I am literally unable
              anymore to accept anything as So just because it is stated as So. Just My
              opinion. Sure we are programed by our cultural conditioning, but we are also
              biological material beings and savants when it comes to imagination and
              language, and utterly curious, as well as really dumb. Oh how I long for being
              OK with not knowing it all. And I am also very curious and won't stop wanting to
              learn more and more.....

              I like this from the same web page:

              Don't talk of different religions.
              The one reality is everywhere,
              not just in a Hindu, or a Muslim,
              or anywhere else! Realize:
              your awareness is
              the truth about God.

              - Lalla 14th Century North Indian mystic

              Non ; )

              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > This is from the link in my
              > previous post.
              >
              > "A man of knowledge is one
              > who has followed truthfully
              > the hardships of learning,
              > a man who has, without rushing
              > or without faltering, gone
              > as far as he can in unraveling
              > the secrets of power and
              > knowledge. To become a
              > man of knowledge one must
              > challenge and defeat his
              > four natural enemies.
              >
              > When a man starts to learn,
              > he is never clear about his
              > objectives. His purpose is
              > faulty; his intent is vague.
              >
              > (1) He hopes for rewards
              > that will never materialize
              > for he knows nothing of
              > the hardships of learning.
              >
              > He slowly begins to learn--
              > bit by bit at first, then in
              > big chunks. And his thoughts
              > soon clash. What he learns
              > is never what he pictured,
              > or imagined, and so he
              > begins to be afraid. Learning
              > is never what one expects.
              >
              > Every step of learning is
              > a new task, and the fear
              > the man is experiencing
              > begins to mount mercilessly,
              > unyieldingly. His purpose
              > becomes a battlefield.
              > And thus he has stumbled
              > upon the first of his natural
              > enemies: fear!
              >
              > A terrible enemy--treacherous,
              > and difficult to overcome.
              > It remains concealed at every
              > turn of the way, prowling,
              > waiting. And if the man, terrified
              > in its presence, runs away,
              > his enemy will have put an
              > end to his quest and he will
              > never learn. He will never
              > become a man of knowledge.
              > He will perhaps be a bully,
              > or a harmless, scared man;
              > at any rate, he will be a
              > defeated man. His first enemy
              > will have put an end to his
              > cravings. It is not possible
              > for a man to abandon himself
              > to fear for years, then finally
              > conquer it. If he gives in to
              > fear he will never conquer it,
              > because he will shy away from
              > learning and never try again.
              >
              > But if he tries to learn for years
              > in the midst of his fear, he
              > will eventually conquer it
              > because he will never have
              > really abandoned himself
              > to it. Therefore he must not
              > run away. He must defy his
              > fear, and in spite of it he
              > must take the next step in
              > learning, and the next, and
              > the next.
              >
              > He must be fully afraid, and
              > yet he must not stop. That
              > is the rule! And a moment
              > will come when his first enemy
              > retreats. The man begins to
              > feel sure of himself. His intent
              > becomes stronger. Learning
              > is no longer a terrifying task.
              > When this joyful moment comes,
              > the man can say without hesitation
              > that he has defeated his first
              > natural enemy. It happens little
              > by little, and yet the fear is
              > vanquished suddenly and fast.
              >
              > Once a man has vanquished
              > fear, he is free from it for the
              > rest of his life because, instead
              > of fear, he has acquired clarity--
              > a clarity of mind which erases
              > fear. By then a man knows his
              > desires; he knows how to satisfy
              > those desires. He can anticipate
              > the new steps of learning and
              > a sharp clarity surrounds everything.
              >
              > The man feels that nothing is
              > concealed. And thus he has
              > encountered his second enemy:
              > (2) Clarity! That clarity of mind,
              > which is so hard to obtain,
              > dispels fear, but also blinds.
              > It forces the man never to doubt
              > himself. It gives him the assurance
              > he can do anything he pleases,
              > for he sees clearly into everything.
              > And he is courageous because
              > he is clear, and he stops at nothing
              > because he is clear. But all that
              > is a mistake; it is like something
              > incomplete.
              >
              >
              > If the man yields to this make-
              > believe power, he has succumbed
              > to his second enemy and will
              > be patient when he should rush.
              > And he will fumble with learning
              > until he winds up incapable of
              > learning anything more. His second
              > enemy has just stopped him cold
              > from trying to become a man of
              > knowledge. Instead, the man may
              > turn into a buoyant warrior, or
              > a clown. Yet the clarity for which
              > he has paid so dearly will never
              > change to darkness and fear again.
              > He will be clear as long as he lives,
              > but he will no longer learn, or
              > yearn for, anything. He must do
              > what he did with fear: he must
              > defy his clarity and use it only
              > to see, and wait patiently and
              > measure carefully before taking
              > new steps; he must think, above
              > all, that his clarity is almost
              > a mistake.
              >
              > And a moment will come when
              > he will understand that his clarity
              > was only a point before his eyes.
              > And thus he will have overcome
              > his second enemy, and will arrive
              > at a position where nothing can
              > harm him anymore.
              >
              > This will not be a mistake. It will
              > not be only a point before his
              > eyes. It will be true power. He
              > will know at this point that the
              > power he has been pursuing for
              > so long is finally his. He can do
              > with it whatever he pleases. His
              > ally is at his command. His wish
              > is the rule. He sees all that is
              > around him. But he has also
              > come across his third enemy:
              > (3) Power! Power is the strongest
              > of all enemies. And naturally
              > the easiest thing to do is to
              > give in; after all, the man is
              > truly invincible. He commands;
              > he begins by taking calculated
              > risks, andends in making rules,
              > because he is a master.
              >
              > A man at this stage hardly notices
              > his third enemy closing in on him.
              > And suddenly, without knowing,
              > he will certainly have lost the battle.
              > His enemy will have turned him
              > into a cruel, capricious man, but
              > he will never lose his clarity or
              > his power. A man who is defeated
              > by power dies without really knowing
              > how to handle it. Power is only
              > a burden upon his fate. Such
              > a man has no command over
              > himself, and cannot tell when
              > or how to use his power.
              >
              > Once one of these enemies
              > overpowers a man there is
              > nothing he can do. It is not
              > possible, for instance, that
              > a man who is defeated by
              > power may see his error and
              > mend his ways. Once a man
              > gives in he is through. If,
              > however, he is temporarily
              > blinded by power, and then
              > refuses it, his battle is still
              > on. That means he is still
              > trying to become a man of
              > knowledge. A man is defeated
              > only when he no longer tries,
              > and abandons himself. He
              > has to come to realize that
              > the power he has seemingly
              > conquered is in reality never
              > his. He must keep himself
              > in line at all times, handling
              > carefully and faithfully all
              > that he has learned. If he
              > can see that clarity and
              > power, without his control
              > over himself, are worse than
              > mistakes, he will reach
              > a point where everything
              > is held in check. He will
              > know then when and how
              > to use his power.
              >
              > And thus he will have
              > defeated his third enemy.
              > The man will be, by then,
              > at the end of his journey
              > of learning, and almost
              > without warning he will
              > come upon the last of his
              > enemies: (4.) Old age!
              > This enemy is the cruelest
              > of all, the one he won't
              > be able to defeat completely,
              > but only fight away.
              >
              > This is the time when a
              > man has no more fears,
              > no more impatient clarity
              > of mind--a time when all
              > his power is in check, but
              > also the time when he has
              > an unyielding desire to rest.
              >
              > If he gives in totally to his
              > desire to lie down and forget,
              > if he soothes himself in
              > tiredness, he will have lost
              > his last round, and his enemy
              > will cut him down into a
              > feeble old creature. His
              > desire to retreat will overrule
              > all his clarity, his power,
              > and his knowledge.
              >
              > But if the man sloughs off
              > his tiredness, and lives his
              > fate though, he can then be
              > called a man of knowledge,
              > if only for the brief moment
              > when he succeeds in fighting
              > off his last, invincible enemy.
              > That moment of clarity, power,
              > and knowledge is enough.
              >
              > Anything is one of a million
              > paths. Therefore you must
              > always keep in mind that a
              > path is only a path; if you feel
              > you should not follow it, you
              > must not stay with it under
              > any conditions.
              >
              > To have such clarity you must
              > lead a disciplined life. Only
              > then will you know that any
              > path is only a path and there
              > is no affront, to oneself or to
              > others, in dropping it if that
              > is what your heart tells you to
              > do.
              >
              > But your decision to keep on
              > the path or to leave it must
              > be free of fear or ambition.
              >
              > I warn you. Look at every
              > path closely and deliberately.
              > Try it as many times as you
              > think necessary. This question
              > is one that only a very old
              > man asks. Does this path have
              > a heart?
              >
              > All paths are the same: they
              > lead nowhere. They are paths
              > going through the bush, or
              > into the bush. In my own life
              > I could say I have traversed
              > long long paths, but I am not
              > anywhere.
              >
              > Does this path have a heart?
              > If it does, the path is good;
              > if it doesn't, it is of no use.
              >
              > Both paths lead nowhere;
              > but one has a heart, the
              > other doesn't. One makes
              > for a joyful journey; as long
              > as you follow it, you are one
              > with it. The other will make
              > you curse your life. One makes
              > you strong; the other weakens
              > you.
              >
              > Before you embark on any path
              > [once again] ask the question:
              >
              > Does this path have a heart?
              >
              > If the answer is no, you will know
              > it, and then you must choose
              > another path. The trouble is
              > nobody asks the question; and
              > when a man finally realizes that
              > he has taken a path without a
              > heart, the path is ready to kill
              > him. At that point very few men
              > can stop to deliberate, and leave
              > the path. A path without a heart
              > is never enjoyable. You have to
              > work hard even to take it.
              >
              > On the other hand, a path with
              > heart is easy; it does not make
              > you work at liking it.
              >
              > I have told you that to choose
              > a path you must be free from
              > fear and ambition. The desire
              > to learn is not ambition. It is
              > our lot as men to want to know.
              >
              > The path without a heart will
              > turn against men and destroy
              > them. It does not take much
              > to die, and to seek death is
              > to seek nothing.
              >
              > For me there is only the traveling
              > on the paths that have a heart,
              > on any path that may have a heart.
              > There I travel, and the only worthwhile
              > challenge for me is to traverse
              > its full length. And there I travel--
              > looking, looking, breathlessly.
              >
              > 1 fear = what we experience
              > clashes on close examination
              > with our thoughts. What he
              > learns is never what he pictured,
              > or imagined, and so he begins
              > to be afraid. (fear is the mind killer!)
              >
              > 2 Clarity = clarity of mind which
              > erases fear. By then a man knows
              > his desires; he knows how to
              > satisfy those desires. He can
              > anticipate the new steps of learning
              > and a sharp clarity surrounds
              > everything. The man feels that
              > nothing is concealed.
              >
              > 3 power = He has to come to
              > realize that the power he has
              > seemingly conquered is in reality
              > never his. He must keep himself
              > in line at all times, handling
              > carefully and faithfully all that
              > he has learned. If he can see
              > that clarity and power, without
              > his control over himself, are
              > worse than mistakes, he will
              > reach a point where everything
              > is held in check. He will know
              > then when and how to use his
              > power. And thus he will have
              > defeated his third enemy
              >
              > 4. OLd AGE= This is the time
              > when a man has no more fears,
              > no more impatient clarity of mind--
              > a time when all his power is in
              > check, but also the time when
              > he has an unyielding desire to
              > rest. If he gives in totally to his
              > desire to lie down and forget,
              > if he soothes himself in tiredness,
              > he will have lost his last round,
              > and his enemy will cut him down
              > into a feeble old creature. His
              > desire to retreat will overrule
              > all his clarity, his power, and
              > his knowledge." [end]
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