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Re: Fw: RE Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

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  • Non
    This is really kind of suspect. Lots of words but little true understanding or compassion. I say this, because this person makes many opinions as if they were
    Message 1 of 2 , Aug 12, 2012
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      This is really kind of suspect. Lots of words but little true understanding or compassion. I say this, because this person makes many opinions as if they were fact, claiming to not have to know the persons involved in order to come to an absolute conclusion.

      There is a lot in here that sounds like blaming the victim, a very common pop reaction, "get over it" mentality.

      At least Psychologists are under the umbrella of Science and their knowledge is supposed to be evolving, and testing and skepticism is the expected norm, unlike authors who write books to become the next spiritual world teacher, or whatever...........

      Destructive cults have a hierarchy of supposed high holy enlightened leaders and followers who learn to emulate the big narcissistic leaders. Middle management of destructive cults do as they are brain washed to do. Questioning, skepticism and even criticizing are not allowed.

      Eckists are generally just like the lame living eck master. He is their role model. I was treated just as badly by eckists, unless I conformed. That's the bottom line.

      These forums are as much to provide information for those who may be considering destructive cults like eckankar, as it is a support for those leaving or who have left. I believe in the power of free expression and and speaking out against abuse. If more were outspoken there would be less of this destructive cult crap. We live in a culture that seems to prize having conviction in our beliefs, instead of being willing to admit not knowing. We live in a culture imo, that views this not knowing as weakness. Animals have more sense.

      It is also normal to want to believe that we are not being lied to, yet we must also be vigilant. Nazis thrived mainly because of an extremely authoritarian culture and a lack of vigilance that allowed for genocide on a mass scale. Oh, and it was a Nazi cult to begin with. YOu know, don't learn from the past and the past is very likely to repeat. Right?

      Non ; )

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Gnothe Seauton <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Forwarded Message -----
      > From: Santim Vah <santimvah@...>
      > To: "prometheus_973@..." <prometheus_973@...>
      > Cc: Sean Gmail <sean.arundell@...>
      > Sent: Friday, August 3, 2012 10:06 PM
      > Subject: RE Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
      >
      > Hi Prometheus,
      >
      > I'd like to share a few things about this thread topic and content from where I see it, fwiw. May be a help others. I'd rather not join the group in order to do so, if that's ok with you. 
      >
      > This post be Janice is a good quick summary of the dynamic imho.
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/6285
      >
      > What I would add to that is the thought that those folks doing this with newbies do so believing they are doing the right thing for the good of the newbie. Doesn't make them right of course, false beliefs cloud clarity.
      >
      > NON-eckster said:
      > My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
      > and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
      > denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
      > others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
      > and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
      > does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
      > Truth to them is just TWISTED.
      > --
      >
      > THAT is so true imho, and experience. The *pathological*, the disturbed power-seeking sociopath iow, is really the most dangerous and difficult type of personality to deal with. IN or out of eckankar.  Often narcissism is another thing that gets blended in as well, but it's all a matter of degrees. Each person is a different kettle of fish. Mixed in the larger group with these *nasty* heartless controlling folks are actually some genuine well meaning people who (just like say Janice and all the others) who simply come to a point of accepting and thus believing as if by default that the whole story must be true, if a portion benefits them. 
      >
      > I think it is really helpful to be able as much as possible to separate these two very different types of people inside of eckankar, even though at times they can be seen to be *telling the same story*. 
      >
      > Most of those in the secret Bright Future group that operated a behind the scenes *planning & attack* system against detractors on a.r.e. from the late 90's are a good example of how far the delusion can take one when left unchecked. Their aggressiveness and self-righteousness manifested in consciously and with intent to "head f***" and mentally disable whoever they could by whatever means possible they could bring to bear on the newsgroup. It was pretty sick. 
      >
      > The next they may be at a HU Chant, or a worship service, or leading a Satsang discussion talking about Love and Truth. Every picture tells a story. When one can actually see the picture. BUt when things are hidden from one, be the misrepresentations by Eckankar about their teachings, or the true nature of an individual in Bright Future masquerading as kind hearted elsewhere, then it is pretty difficult to work anything out accurately. 
      >
      > Which brings me to the main topic of my email here: Blaming "the other" and self-blame and self-criticism, are intrinsically connected - moving past this state is the key for the individual finding real relief and freedom from the past drama. 
      >
      > This other post by Janice is also really good. She speaks a lot of truth in this. Wow, it's just excellent. 
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/6283
      >
      > Though I want to pick up on one key line here, and bare with me as it takes a bit of explaining why, and what to do about it. I am not criticising janice, nor trying to put words in her mouth, it's a psychological issue I wish to point to here. IT's just an mental exercise, ok. 
      >
      > Quote: "I think we believed the lies because we simply wanted too."
      >
      > I feel that this statement is inaccurate/false, and has the power to take one down the wrong/unhealthy road. It's about the *language* we choose to use, within which is some signals worth noticing. 
      >
      > That statement places the emphasis/cause onto the individual where it does not belong by saying "we simply wanted to". Think about it, go back down the timeline of your own personal experience at the very beginning and I feel you will find that that is not actually correct at the time. 
      >
      > *pause* 
      >
      > Fact: You were not operating in a bubble, all alone. 
      >
      > You did not want to *believe* just anything for no reason except that you *simply wanted to*. In fact the opposite. I suspect that 99.9% of newbies were instead rather cautious and skeptical, in the beginning. 
      >
      > True? 
      >
      > You didn't make anything up all by yourself. It was implanted in you by another, be it Paul's writings, Harold's talks/image, or what people said to you one on one. People who were already immersed in the *belief system* and the culture of Eckankar ideology. 
      >
      > And they were simply quite convincing, because they did not know what the whole truth was either. And you had NO chance of knowing either. How could you? You can't know something before you know it, right? 
      >
      > So rather than thinking .. "because we simply wanted to", it may be more correct and true to look at this *key moment* in the past in a totally different way, and to stop blaming yourself for the words and actions of others that you accepted on FACE VALUE and in good faith. 
      >
      > It was NOT a mistake of your own making, because you had no knowledge nor personal experience with the group or the teaching upon which it was possible for you to NOT become *convinced*. There was in fact, no justifiable reason to NOT trust the others were genuinely not only telling you the truth, but that you see clearly that they very much accepted it themselves, and would have told numerous stories that backed up their own beliefs. 
      >
      > With that there must have been some key issue in your own life experience that was telling yourself, hey, this looks ok, this sounds right, this FITS with XYZ which is already something I believe/accept is more true than all those other options of paths, beliefs, or ideologies out there. 
      >
      > Everyone had some kind of direct personal experience or event, that pushed them over the edge to saying OK, I'll join up, this seems to be the real deal. 
      >
      > But even then, I believe that everyone remained somewhat sceptical and cautious during their first year or so. Most people still kept *testing* things out, and asking pointed questions along the way. Why? because you really wanted to be sure, you really wanted to be careful, and you really did NOT want to believe anything and everything .. just because you simply wanted to. 
      >
      > can you see what I mean here? can you see how subtle these things, these ideas, and even the beliefs we have about ourselves right now .. versus what might actually be the truth back at the beginning? 
      >
      > It's all quite confusing really, and not easy to work thru. Our own mind and memories can play tricks on us. WE can't always even believe our own eyes at times. 
      >
      > ---
      >
      > There is no weakness, no failure in making any mistake in this life. NONE. There is always a reason for it. There is never any good to come out of blaming yourself for that mistake either. NONE. No one is judging you here, only your own mind mechanics is doing this, NOT yourself. To believe it is yourself blaming yourself is a LIE that all too often people tell themselves. It's really just a mental/psychological program that is running on automatic.
      >
      > This is the main thing imho that needs to be addressed BEFORE one has any chance of getting a fuller understanding about what happened and how they became so *deluded* for want of a better word about Eckankar and their own beliefs and how much they changed, and how much that affected their own behaviours and choices. 
      >
      > There is an ocean of difference between blaming oneself, and accepting a healthy responsibility for one's own choices, past and present. It's not the same thing at all. Recognising a simply mis-take down the track, correcting it, and moving on has nothing to do with BLAME. Not about yourself, and not about the *others* either. 
      >
      > Blaming Eckankar as some kind of Borg consciousness, or those individuals in it who were either just misguided and in shoes similar to your own, or those callous sociopaths and ego-trips is likewise self-defeating and essentially not even true. 
      >
      > But recognising their degree of personal responsibility within the situation that is different to your own is another matter. Clearly seeing their own degrees of self-delusion, their own degree of false beliefs as best you can, in hindsight, is another matter entirely, and not blaming them for everything. It's a black hole that goes on forever, at sometime it becomes harmful all over again, rather than healing. 
      >
      > ----
      >
      > I looked at the cults info links given and wish to add a note of caution. There is some truth in what is said there, and yet it's a slippery slope. There's a mind set within Psychology circles and in politics these days, that there is always someone else to blame for what happened to you or them. It's subtle, and hard to see. Psychology also comes out of a kind of Ideology, and a Culture of beliefs. Not all Psychologists and Psychiatrists are the same, most are useless imho, so much like a spiritual teaching it's may be wise to pick the eyes of these ideas and not be too willing to adopt everything they might say about something, such as the *danger of cults and how they work*. 
      >
      > IMHO it is way to generalised, for each person each individual is a world unto themselves and so rather than rail against the beast of Cults, it's more effective imho to keep the focus on yourself and your state of being, and the specific issues that you may have on your plate .. for to project all your own experiences onto such a wide-ranging ideology about Cults is to lose yourself (your individual identity) in the * group consciousness* all over again. 
      >
      > Plus this approach very much has the distinct possibility of scape goating, placing all the responsibility for your own life onto the actions and behaviours of others. How any group deemed to be a cult operates is just irrelevant to YOU and your life, or should be. There's nothing to fix out there, but always something worthwhile to work on *in here*. You are far more important than any cult, or any ideology, or any *theory* that a group of Psychologists might come up with today or tomorrow. Just because they say it, just because they present themselves as *authorities* as genuine researchers, doesn't make what they say True by default. 
      >
      > So be careful with these folks, they can be as misguided and foolish and naive as your nearest RESA is. :-) 
      >
      > ---
      >
      > This is long, not because I love to hear myself speak, but because it is complex, and I want to be very careful how I put. I hope to be clear here, this stuff is not simple when one tries to get the info from one pole to another and not get it muddled up.
      >
      > So I have a few suggestions that I feel may offer some folks some real tools, insights, and support about the whole drama. 
      >
      > Eckart Tolle's books The Power of Now, and the The New Earth. 
      >
      > (beware the Oprah types now involved with Tolle, she may come up in various searches about Tolle. I still her very much as a groupie who doesn't truly *get it* herself. But she's trying .. last time I looked. Avoid the side show .. go to the source, and that's Eckart himself.)
      >
      > Byron Katie who was taught by Eckart. Especially her videos on Youtube where she takes questions form the audience. This is Eckarts wisdom in action. Watch carefully what comes thru, look at the changes in the individuals themselves. Really think about what she says, how she says it, and the love and wisdom that is there within her. 
      >
      > Manuel Ruiz and his The Four Agreements - simple easy allegorical but powerful. Reading the book and just nodding your head in agreement will not help one bit. You have to actually go out in your own life daily, and TEST and practice the guidance and see it working for you in the Now. It works, but only if it is practised as instructed. Give it 3 to 6 months .. and read a small bit everyday as a reminder trigger until it becomes second nature. 
      >
      > It is in total harmony with Tolle's ideas. Treat all as a tool to use, not a belief system to adopt in toto. 
      >
      > Virginia Satir (deceased) author of People Making (Revisited) Read her book, stay away from the current groupie psychologists and online therapists. She speaks about the wisdom in the words we use and that others use that tend to manipulate us and others. Our words are sign into the personality of the person. Speaks about 5 key modes of Human Communication : Blamer, Placater, Computer, Distractor and Levelling.
      >
      > Her book is a MUST READ imho, if you truly wish to see how people can be manipulated into Eckankar, and then remain there despite every force telling them to leave. You will see HOW the Sociopath HIs remain in power inside Eckankar. It's is also the individuals greatest tool for forcing others to tell the truth, and thus extricate themselves from the spiders web. 
      >
      > And like the 4 agreements, you have to PRACTICE what she preaches before you are able to comprehend exactly what she is saying .. you cannot get wisdom and power out of a book, you have put it into practice, test it, and then apply it properly. This is how I survived a.r.e. - but don't judge a book by it's cover either. If cultural and social norms rule you life, and you cant *go hard*, give back what is given out when required and still remain detached and caring, well this book by her is not for you. :-)  
      >
      > What else is there .. ?
      >
      > Oh yes. Non-eckster and his brother. Mate, take a moment to relax, go back to your childhood & teenage days, then ask yourself this critically important question: Wasn't my brother always like this, even before he joined Eckankar?  
      >
      > I know the answer, can you also see it now?
      >
      > I don't know you, and I don't know your brother, I don't need to. I have heard enough and can see enough already. For he is a classic Narcissist of the highest order. Do your own research and find some genuine support. There is ONLY one solution for dealing with extreme  narcissists, and that is to get as far away from them as humanly possible, and never let them into your space ever again. No matter what it takes, no matter what you feel you might lose as a result, get away from him and have no contact whatsoever. Cut the ties, you cannot help him, and you cannot help yourself until you remove him from your circle. It takes great personal strength to do so, get some support to help you through it. 
      >
      > No need to believe me just because I say so, it's got nothing to do with me, or me being right or not. Do your own research, check out what I say for yourself, and then make your own decisions. 
      >
      > ----
      >
      > Lastly, a quick word for Janice. I am very sorry for my emotional outbursts and upsetting you last time I wrote to Prometheus about Apollonius' posts months ago. To me it was a every serious matter, and couldnt contain myself at the time. 
      >
      > fwiw, he confirmed something on the *outer* I had suspected for a very long time, about a separate cabal of people within Eckankar working privately and dishonestly whilst presenting a totally different public face within the Org. That he would still be presenting his thoughts here, as if what those HIs had been doing for decades was somehow OK, really pushed me over the edge temporarily. Apollonius is as bad as they are according to me own personal ideals, and I cannot stand by and say nothing, no matter how badly I may say it. 
      >
      > What these people have done is far worse than I having a bad moment, and always will be. They allow the abuse and the lies and the manipulations to continue, and they allow the likes of Non-ecksters brother to have a venue and space to be a nasty piece of work.  
      >
      > The Truth will out in it's own good time, for each individual. Have faith in the Universe, whatever you believe that to be. 
      >
      > --
      >
      > Lastly, please as soon as possible stop believing that you have done anything wrong, or are to blame for the situation you became involved in within Eckankar. Life is full of making mistakes, it really doesn't matter in the long run. Or as I like to say, hey, shit happens, doesn't matter. 
      >
      > Yesterday doesn't matter what happened to you, or what you may consider now to be a poor call. Every choice in the past was RIGHT when you made, given what you knew and were aware of at the time. That's not a mistake then, only in hindsight can you now recognise that as a mistake. Learn from it and move on. 
      >
      > Your point of Power is always in the Present. 
      >
      > Take care, and enjoy Life. 
      >
      > Cheers Sean 
      >
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