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Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Non eckchains, Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences. I ll include some comments as well. Non eckchains wrote: Actually, and
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 6, 2012
      Hello Non eckchains,
      Thanks for taking the time
      to share your experiences.
      I'll include some comments
      as well.

      "Non" eckchains wrote:
      Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
      of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
      articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
      like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
      place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
      weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
      course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
      discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
      thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
      just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
      thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
      thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
      blah....!?


      ME: I think that many ECKists
      were very gung-ho when they
      started out. We, and those we
      associated with, were fanatics.
      We'd find the other fanatics at
      the seminars because we all
      volunteered in order to get
      close to and rub elbows with
      the higher ups and would be
      assigned backstage or in
      back hallways where the LEM
      would sneak in with his entourage.
      Sometimes a half dozen of us
      would stay in the same room.

      Also, In the old days it was okay
      to receive and study two discourses
      at the same time and my mentor,
      a 7th initiate, recommended
      that I do that. One discourse
      was for private study, one was
      for Satsang class.

      BTW-I wrote to celebrities recommending
      Eckankar too, but Nixon wasn't
      included. Quite frankly, I can't
      remember who they were, but
      that's okay because it would
      just embarrass me to remember.
      It was fun at first but became
      bullshit when I saw ECkists who
      were not as spiritually advanced
      as others getting promoted. And,
      it happened all the time because
      Gross and Klemp had no clue.
      They depend upon others to tell
      them who should be promoted.


      Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
      getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
      wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
      already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
      very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
      seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
      there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
      that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
      is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
      beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
      it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
      of kal, right?


      ME: Yes, that's about it. And, yes, one isn't
      permitted to keep asking questions, unless,
      you're new. After you get the 2nd initiation
      that's it for questions... no more! You're
      supposed to get your answers on the inner
      or have faith that you're being led by the
      inner master even if you can't dream of him.
      Generally, even non-eckists can see a blue
      light when they meditate. It's supposed to
      be the Blue Light of the Mental Plane versus
      the Mahanta. Maybe that's why it's interchangeable
      since more people tend to see a blue light.
      But, prior to EK I would see yellow and white
      lights too.



      I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
      on cults of all kinds and recovery.

      http://www.refocus.org/


      At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
      really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
      denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
      pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
      ever more deluded.


      ME: The thing is, most of us delude
      ourselves to varying degrees about
      all sorts of things whether known,
      or repressed and forgotten. It can
      be fun to dream and pretend and
      to deny reality, but it does catch
      up to people, usually, when it's
      almost too late. Being young at
      heart doesn't mean we shouldn't
      grow up and see beyond the make-
      believe or the lies. ECKists are generally
      very passive and this is what makes
      them lazy thinkers. They get too
      comfortable. But, Klemp keeps them
      busy so they don't have time to think
      about life without Eckankar. The
      irony is the Easy Way Discourse because
      Eckankar, itself, is the Easy Way.


      My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
      and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
      denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
      others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
      and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
      does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
      Truth to them is just TWISTED.


      ME: I always thought it was odd
      to claim that Jesus was a 2nd initiate
      and that Harold was a childhood
      friend of Jesus. It's especially odd
      when the liars Twitchell, Gross,
      and Klemp couldn't/can't hold a
      candle to what Jesus did and taught.
      EKists act like they are far above
      others in awareness/spiritual
      consciousness etc. with their fake
      initiations, but look at how H.I.s
      treat fellow EKists let alone what
      they think of the public. It's really
      very hypocritical of ECKists when
      they can't even follow the teachings
      of love, compassion, empathy
      (Klemp's nemesis), tolerance,
      and forgiveness as "2nd initiate"
      Jesus lived and taught. [end]
      -prometheus



      noneckster ; )
    • Non
      Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 6, 2012
        Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

        It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

        A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

        non eckster ; )

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

        Hello All,
        Thanks again for the insights.
        I think I'll make a few comments
        of my own.

        "Non"eckchains wrote:
        Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
        of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
        articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
        like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
        place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
        weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
        course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
        discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
        thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
        just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
        thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
        thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
        blah....!?

        Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
        getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
        wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
        already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
        very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
        seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
        there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
        that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
        is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
        beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
        it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
        of kal, right?

        ME: It's true that they always
        reflect the blame for your
        questions back at you in order
        to control and manipulate you.
        Klemp never takes responsibility
        for anything that happens within
        Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
        Yet, EKies will pray to him via
        asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
        ego) for parking spaces and
        for answers to their questions,
        or for job decisions and for
        health & prosperity. He's supposed
        to be taking care of his H.I.s
        but it doesn't happen anymore
        for Ekists than it does for
        Christians... actually "miracles"
        happen less for ECKists than
        for Christians. Google and
        compare the testimonials!


        I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
        on cults of all kinds and recovery.

        http://www.refocus.org/

        noneckster ; )

        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

        It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
        eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
        right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
        abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.


        ME: It's that way with all religions.
        The more the merrier... not! Yes,
        the more people believing the same
        lies and conforming to the same rules
        and laws is proof, for many, that the
        religion is valid and true. How can
        so many intelligent people be fooled
        an be wrong?



        I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
        sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
        they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
        to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
        institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
        driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
        that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
        suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
        about his beliefs.

        How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
        necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
        eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
        But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
        ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
        eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
        is.

        ME: One becomes focused upon
        how to explain questions away
        without considering the premise
        that those uniform explanations
        are inaccurate and are designed
        to be intentionally misleading.



        I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
        in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
        believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
        suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
        What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
        what the teachings did for you in your own life.


        ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
        ECK booth at a secular event that
        was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
        Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
        event you might have a different
        experience. I have. Think about
        a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
        750,000 in attendance. Or, how
        about an EK Booth at a street fair
        across from a major university.
        Anyway, we did come under verbal
        attack from time-to-time. Of course
        we really didn't care if they joined
        or not... that was their karma...
        we did our part by being there
        if nothing else. That reminds me.
        Remember how we were told that
        when we stir up deep seated truth
        that if will affect people negatively
        because they can't handle it. The
        same goes for what we're saying,
        here, about Eckankar. The Truth
        is being stirred up and ECkists
        can't handle it and that's what
        upsets them. Gotta Go... later!




        Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
        told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
        written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
        work.

        I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
        they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
        like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
        they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
        from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
        of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
        they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
        The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
        of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
        from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
        that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
        fed to me anyway.

        Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
        teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
        Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
        slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
        members.

        Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
        numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
        would be interesting to know however.

        I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
        supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
        worlds,
        so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
        he do
        something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?


        eckchains wrote:

        At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
        really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
        denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
        pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
        ever more deluded.
        >
        My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
        and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
        denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
        others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
        and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
        does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
        >
        Truth to them is just TWISTED.
        >
        noneckster ; )
      • Russ Rodnick
        I agree with your perception regarding the imaginary greatness. To reveal a personal truth, for me these ideals covered my insecurities allowing me to get out
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 7, 2012
          I agree with your perception regarding the imaginary greatness. To reveal a personal truth, for me these ideals covered my insecurities allowing me to get out of myself which is a good thing, I think. What good came of it, for me it was the first time that I felt an identification within myself with the idea of being a vehicle for spirit. Post-eck, I am still becoming a vehicle for spirit, but it doesn't have anything to do with HKor other imaginary masters. However, I do feel a Presence at times, that feels higher but is devoid of personality. I think it is a part of myself rather than another person or entity. Freedom.
           
          so, it's not all black and white for me, you know what I mean?
           
          Good wishes to you!

          Russ

          From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 11:24 PM
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
           
          I think we believed the lies because we simply wanted too.  We thought eckankar filled a void in our lives so we chose to believe the rediculous stuff that helped explain away the inconsistances.  Then, if you got any sense at all, one day, you just have to face the fact that, it is all quite rediculous and the man in charge isn't anything special and even all the other eckist start to appear to be really lacking in social and spiritual graces.  I give thanks everyday that I am not still among the blind.  I give thanks that there are others like you that came out of eckankar's web of spiritual death.  It would be nice if we could wave a magic wand and have all the still deceived become wide open to the truth about eckankar.  We all know it is not going to happen that way.  I believe it is a person's ego that keeps them spell bound in eckankar.  The belief that they are special and that they are set apart from the rest of the world in their specialness is too much to relinquish.  And so they continue to believe that klemp is God made flesh and eckankar is the path to spiritual freedom while they scurry around to do his bidding and give him as much money as they can afford to give.  So friends let us consider ourselves the lucky ones.  Where once we were among the deceived, we did survive the ordeal and maybe we are all just a bit wiser about con artists and how greed can cause some to inslave others for profit.  Bless each and all who did make the journey through the smoke and mirrors of eckankar and can today say it has no more hold on them.  And may all of us think of those still with in it's grasp with compassion.  Chosing the truth isn't always easy over a life of imaginary greatness. 

          --- On Tue, 7/31/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2012, 9:00 PM

           
          Hello All, I was thinking about some of the lies we were told while in Eckankar and of how and why we accepted them so readily. For instance, there's the long standing rule that EKists don't proselytize, in part, due to the Law of Non-Interference. But, all this actually meant is that ECKists don't go door-to-door like Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. Proselytizing means trying to: "proselytize |&#712;präs&#601;l&#601;&#716;t&#299;z| verb [ with obj. ] convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another: the program did have a tremendous evangelical effect, proselytizing many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing for converts | (as noun proselytizing) : no amount of proselytizing was going to change their minds. • advocate or promote (a belief or course of action): Davis wanted to share his concept and proselytize his ideas." Leaving books and brochures in laundromats or bookmarks in books at libraries and in bookstores is not following the Law of Non-Interference. Neither is having EK Internet Videos or booths at Psychic Fairs. BTW- Let me speak about another thought. Does Klemp have a sense of divine intercession? Does he sit in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man cave and HU/pray for the spiritual evolution of mankind or for world peace? Many religious leaders and Maharishis who don't go out and preach at least pray for intercession. What does Klemp do except write trashy books and promote his $$$ religious wares via his volunteer grass roots sales staff and via the pros at the ESC. Prometheus
        • Russ Rodnick
          I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path.
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 7, 2012
            I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path. Eckankar fit the bill. At the time I was really into magical thinking, dreams as a doorway to invisible worlds and the mythology of the superman. I couldn't believe in the normal, ordinary as being all there was. Now, however I feel that everyone who is 'doing' eckankar are believers. but not in themselves, as they really are, but in a 'thing' outside themselves. Courage isn't something born in the heart of those who follow blindly evading the 500 pound elephant in the room, in favor of courting the Darshan and being lifted into the higher planes. I think the experiences people are looking for are just inside the door. We don't have to be led to ourselves do we? just be it, create the flow and it will be your reality.
             
            Russ

            From: Non <eckchains@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 11:14 PM
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

             
            Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

            It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

            A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

            non eckster ; )

            --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

            Hello All,
            Thanks again for the insights.
            I think I'll make a few comments
            of my own.

            "Non"eckchains wrote:
            Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
            of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
            articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
            like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
            place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
            weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
            course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
            discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
            thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
            just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
            thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
            thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
            blah....!?

            Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
            getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
            wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
            already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
            very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
            seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
            there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
            that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
            is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
            beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
            it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
            of kal, right?

            ME: It's true that they always
            reflect the blame for your
            questions back at you in order
            to control and manipulate you.
            Klemp never takes responsibility
            for anything that happens within
            Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
            Yet, EKies will pray to him via
            asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
            ego) for parking spaces and
            for answers to their questions,
            or for job decisions and for
            health & prosperity. He's supposed
            to be taking care of his H.I.s
            but it doesn't happen anymore
            for Ekists than it does for
            Christians... actually "miracles"
            happen less for ECKists than
            for Christians. Google and
            compare the testimonials!

            I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
            on cults of all kinds and recovery.

            http://www.refocus.org/

            noneckster ; )

            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

            It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
            eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
            right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
            abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.

            ME: It's that way with all religions.
            The more the merrier... not! Yes,
            the more people believing the same
            lies and conforming to the same rules
            and laws is proof, for many, that the
            religion is valid and true. How can
            so many intelligent people be fooled
            an be wrong?

            I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
            sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
            they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
            to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
            institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
            driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
            that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
            suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
            about his beliefs.

            How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
            necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
            eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
            But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
            ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
            eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
            is.

            ME: One becomes focused upon
            how to explain questions away
            without considering the premise
            that those uniform explanations
            are inaccurate and are designed
            to be intentionally misleading.

            I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
            in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
            believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
            suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
            What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
            what the teachings did for you in your own life.

            ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
            ECK booth at a secular event that
            was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
            Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
            event you might have a different
            experience. I have. Think about
            a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
            750,000 in attendance. Or, how
            about an EK Booth at a street fair
            across from a major university.
            Anyway, we did come under verbal
            attack from time-to-time. Of course
            we really didn't care if they joined
            or not... that was their karma...
            we did our part by being there
            if nothing else. That reminds me.
            Remember how we were told that
            when we stir up deep seated truth
            that if will affect people negatively
            because they can't handle it. The
            same goes for what we're saying,
            here, about Eckankar. The Truth
            is being stirred up and ECkists
            can't handle it and that's what
            upsets them. Gotta Go... later!

            Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
            told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
            written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
            work.

            I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
            they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
            like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
            they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
            from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
            of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
            they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
            The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
            of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
            from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
            that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
            fed to me anyway.

            Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
            teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
            Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
            slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
            members.

            Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
            numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
            would be interesting to know however.

            I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
            supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
            worlds,
            so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
            he do
            something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?

            eckchains wrote:

            At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
            really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
            denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
            pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
            ever more deluded.
            >
            My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
            and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
            denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
            others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
            and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
            does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
            >
            Truth to them is just TWISTED.
            >
            noneckster ; )



          • Janice Pfeiffer
            I also thank you non eckester. Your contributions are invaluable to my learning and growth.  I feel most fortunate indeed to have the insights of all of
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 8, 2012
              I also thank you non eckester. Your contributions are invaluable to my learning and growth.  I feel most fortunate indeed to have the insights of all of you. 
               
              To Russ:  I found your mentioning living in a communial situation very interesting.  I would so like to hear more if you can share it.
               
              In closing, I would like you all to know that I feel blessed by being a part of this site and having the opportunity to see more of the hearts and minds of all of you as we discuss our experiences in eckankar. 
               
              Each and every one of you shows true beauty and wisdom, much more evident than that of devout eckist.  So my brothers and sisters, if we failed to fit into the eckankar scheme it must mean we had grown past it's boundaries. 
               
              Bless you all as you have blessed me with your knowledge.
               


              --- On Wed, 8/8/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

              From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
              To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Wednesday, August 8, 2012, 1:29 AM

               
              I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path. Eckankar fit the bill. At the time I was really into magical thinking, dreams as a doorway to invisible worlds and the mythology of the superman. I couldn't believe in the normal, ordinary as being all there was. Now, however I feel that everyone who is 'doing' eckankar are believers. but not in themselves, as they really are, but in a 'thing' outside themselves. Courage isn't something born in the heart of those who follow blindly evading the 500 pound elephant in the room, in favor of courting the Darshan and being lifted into the higher planes. I think the experiences people are looking for are just inside the door. We don't have to be led to ourselves do we? just be it, create the flow and it will be your reality.
               
              Russ

              From: Non <eckchains@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 11:14 PM
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

               
              Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

              It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

              A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

              non eckster ; )

              --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

              Hello All,
              Thanks again for the insights.
              I think I'll make a few comments
              of my own.

              "Non"eckchains wrote:
              Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
              of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
              articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
              like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
              place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
              weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
              course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
              discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
              thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
              just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
              thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
              thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
              blah....!?

              Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
              getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
              wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
              already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
              very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
              seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
              there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
              that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
              is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
              beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
              it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
              of kal, right?

              ME: It's true that they always
              reflect the blame for your
              questions back at you in order
              to control and manipulate you.
              Klemp never takes responsibility
              for anything that happens within
              Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
              Yet, EKies will pray to him via
              asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
              ego) for parking spaces and
              for answers to their questions,
              or for job decisions and for
              health & prosperity. He's supposed
              to be taking care of his H.I.s
              but it doesn't happen anymore
              for Ekists than it does for
              Christians... actually "miracles"
              happen less for ECKists than
              for Christians. Google and
              compare the testimonials!

              I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
              on cults of all kinds and recovery.

              http://www.refocus.org/

              noneckster ; )

              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

              It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
              eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
              right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
              abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.

              ME: It's that way with all religions.
              The more the merrier... not! Yes,
              the more people believing the same
              lies and conforming to the same rules
              and laws is proof, for many, that the
              religion is valid and true. How can
              so many intelligent people be fooled
              an be wrong?

              I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
              sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
              they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
              to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
              institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
              driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
              that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
              suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
              about his beliefs.

              How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
              necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
              eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
              But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
              ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
              eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
              is.

              ME: One becomes focused upon
              how to explain questions away
              without considering the premise
              that those uniform explanations
              are inaccurate and are designed
              to be intentionally misleading.

              I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
              in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
              believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
              suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
              What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
              what the teachings did for you in your own life.

              ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
              ECK booth at a secular event that
              was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
              Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
              event you might have a different
              experience. I have. Think about
              a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
              750,000 in attendance. Or, how
              about an EK Booth at a street fair
              across from a major university.
              Anyway, we did come under verbal
              attack from time-to-time. Of course
              we really didn't care if they joined
              or not... that was their karma...
              we did our part by being there
              if nothing else. That reminds me.
              Remember how we were told that
              when we stir up deep seated truth
              that if will affect people negatively
              because they can't handle it. The
              same goes for what we're saying,
              here, about Eckankar. The Truth
              is being stirred up and ECkists
              can't handle it and that's what
              upsets them. Gotta Go... later!

              Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
              told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
              written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
              work.

              I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
              they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
              like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
              they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
              from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
              of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
              they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
              The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
              of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
              from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
              that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
              fed to me anyway.

              Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
              teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
              Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
              slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
              members.

              Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
              numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
              would be interesting to know however.

              I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
              supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
              worlds,
              so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
              he do
              something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?

              eckchains wrote:

              At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
              really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
              denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
              pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
              ever more deluded.
              >
              My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
              and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
              denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
              others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
              and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
              does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
              >
              Truth to them is just TWISTED.
              >
              noneckster ; )



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