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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

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  • Janice Pfeiffer
    Thank you Prometheus,   You always say it so well.   It wasn t Ford s book that shook me awake.  It was being told by a high initiate how initiations really
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 5, 2012
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      Thank you Prometheus,
       
      You always say it so well.
       
      It wasn't Ford's book that shook me awake.  It was being told by a high initiate how initiations really come about and how high initiates report about lower people that usually causes an initiation or prevents one.  I saw so much back biting going on that I found it sincerely offensive that it was these people who would really decide whether or not I got an initiation.   At that time, initiations became worthless to me. 
       
      When I asked the questions about such things, the area resa went ballistic on me.  I guess I was supposed to feel bad about myself for asking.  Instead of being spiritually strong, eckist looked like a bunch of whiny cry babies and I felt that my own growth had taken a some what backwards turn since I joined eckankar.  There wasn't anything spiritual in what I was seeing and I decided I would rather decide for myself where I stood. 
       
      His behavior along with everything else I had learned was enough to clear my head.  I bought and read Ford's book a few months later.  Coming from some one who had been prominent in eckankar. it helped me deal with my angry feelings about the lies and betrayal. 
       
      Funny, high initiates can pass judgment on lower chelas but a lower person can't even ask questions about how things are done.  That to me says they want to hide the truth from you as long as possible.  Finally, I don't see any value of initiations based on gossip and another persons prejudiced observations.
       
      I got the pink slip after I had decided to quit.  I guess promoting an unworthy person was better than losing a dues paying member.  I threw the thing in the trash were it belonged.  I haven't spoken to an eckist since then nor do I care to. 
       
      I wish non of them any harm but I could never tolerate hearing that dribble again. 


      --- On Sun, 8/5/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, August 5, 2012, 6:10 PM

       
      Hello All,
      Thanks for the reply.
      Good insights! I'd like
      to comment as well.

      Janice Pfeiffer (JP) wrote:
      I think we believed the lies because
      we simply wanted too. We thought
      eckankar filled a void in our lives
      so we chose to believe the rediculous
      stuff that helped explain away the
      inconsistances.

      ME: EK does appeal to those
      who are nonconformists and
      who are interested in metaphysics,
      and New Age topics and agendas.
      Yes, it did fill a void because our
      former religions we were raised
      in did not answer questions that
      we wanted to "know." These religions
      were based upon belief, faith, and
      scripture written, edited, and rewritten
      by many authors and scribes, who
      are unknown. And it took place
      2,000-3,000 years ago (except for
      the many rewrites). But, religious
      history is much more recent if you're
      a Mormon, Scientologist, or an ECKist!

      JP: Then, if you got any sense at
      all, one day, you just have to face
      the fact that, it is all quite rediculous
      and the man in charge isn't anything
      special and even all the other eckist
      start to appear to be really lacking
      in social and spiritual graces.

      ME: So true! I knew quite a few
      who were high up in their local
      Satsang Orgs who seemed, and
      were, very unstable.


      JP: I give thanks everyday that I
      am not still among the blind. I give
      thanks that there are others like
      you that came out of eckankar's
      web of spiritual death. It would
      be nice if we could wave a magic
      wand and have all the still deceived
      become wide open to the truth
      about eckankar. We all know it
      is not going to happen that way.

      ME: If I had a magic wand I'd
      change more than just Eckankar.
      Ford's book (Confessions of A
      God-Seeker) opened things up
      for me. I'm just glad I heard about
      it and then paid the money to buy
      it and then took my time to read
      and reflect upon what was being
      said. I, of course, had to verify
      the information given by Ford
      Johnson and purchased "The
      Path of the Masters." I'd met Ford,
      knew he was a 7th initiate and
      a RESA, as well as a Harvard educated
      attorney, and I had heard him
      speak so I respected his intellect.
      I must admit that his book was
      not a pleasant read because it
      was shattering my whole belief
      system and trust.

      There're two or three funny
      stories about Ford's book.

      When it was in manuscript
      form Ford emailed some of
      it to 7th Initiates. I had one
      tell me about it and offered
      to print it out for me. I declined
      the offer.

      Later, a high ranking up and
      coming local EKist and wannabe
      RESA, who was a trustee on the
      local Board, told me about Ford's
      book. Of all people! Yes, he's
      still a member of EK and still
      looking for that 7th and RESA
      position.

      Then, there was this really
      strangely odd EK couple that
      speed read Ford's book and,
      then, threw it in the trash.
      Klemp had printed some of
      their embellished stories and
      during one seminar mentioned
      them by name and pointed
      them out. They were quite proud
      and thought they were above
      even HK's RESA's and a law unto
      themselves and shared in the
      "Mahanta Consciousness."
      Anywho, they put it out there
      that if anyone wanted to discuss
      Ford's book that they would
      take any calls and turn any
      confused EKists around and
      back to the "True Religion."

      JP: I believe it is a person's ego
      that keeps them spell bound in
      eckankar. The belief that they are
      special and that they are set apart
      from the rest of the world in their
      specialness is too much to relinquish.
      And so they continue to believe that
      klemp is God made flesh and eckankar
      is the path to spiritual freedom while
      they scurry around to do his bidding
      and give him as much money as
      they can afford to give.

      ME: Those Initiations are an ego
      Trap. ECKists claim to practice
      Detachment, but coveting initiations
      prevents Detachment. It's a tease
      or would HK call it a Test? Regardless
      of how Klemp would deflect it
      or how EKists rationalize it away
      the EK Initiations bind them to
      desires and to the ego.

      No "true blue" ECKist can say that
      they don't desire another Initiation.

      This is why some longtime 7ths,
      and former RESAs, like Fran Blackwell
      (bless her heart) will share that
      "on the Inner she is an 8th." H.I.s
      have discovered the loophole in
      The Masters 4 Discourse
      telling about the Ninth Initiation...
      that there must be Three Stages
      to every Initiation since there
      are Three Stages with the Ninth
      and everything EK must follow
      the Principle of the Threes. Thus,
      Two Stages are on the Inner
      and the Third and Final Stage
      is the Outer Confirmation. Therefore,
      ON THE INNER, before the Final
      Outer Confirmation Stage, every
      ECKist could claim to be One
      Initiation Higher that their EK
      Membership Card indicates.
      It's more delusion, but it's what
      makes all religions work!

      JP: So friends let us consider ourselves
      the lucky ones. Where once we were
      among the deceived, we did survive
      the ordeal and maybe we are all just
      a bit wiser about con artists and how
      greed can cause some to inslave others
      for profit. Bless each and all who did
      make the journey through the smoke
      and mirrors of eckankar and can today
      say it has no more hold on them. And
      may all of us think of those still with
      in it's grasp with compassion. Chosing
      the truth isn't always easy over a life
      of imaginary greatness.

      ME: I was always seeking the TRUTH
      and Klemp's presence and redundant
      message certainly isn't anywhere close
      to what I was looking for. At first it had
      promise, but after the trap had sprung
      I was kept too busy with distractions
      and wasn't allowed to question which
      would indicate that I was not "ready"
      for that next initiation.

      Prometheus

      prometheus wrote:

      Hello All,
      I was thinking about some
      of the lies we were told
      while in Eckankar and of
      how and why we accepted
      them so readily.

      For instance, there's the
      long standing rule that
      EKists don't proselytize,
      in part, due to the Law
      of Non-Interference.

      But, all this actually meant
      is that ECKists don't go
      door-to-door like Mormons
      and Jehovah Witnesses.
      Proselytizing means trying
      to:

      "proselytize
      verb [ with obj. ]
      convert or attempt to convert
      (someone) from one religion,
      belief, or opinion to another:

      the program did have a tremendous
      evangelical effect, proselytizing
      many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing

      for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
      no amount of proselytizing was
      going to change their minds.

      advocate or promote (a belief
      or course of action): Davis wanted
      to share his concept and proselytize
      his ideas."
      ***
      Leaving books and brochures
      in laundromats or bookmarks
      in books at libraries and in
      bookstores is not following
      the Law of Non-Interference.
      Neither is having EK Internet
      Videos or booths at Psychic
      Fairs.

      BTW- Let me speak about another
      thought. Does Klemp have a sense
      of divine intercession? Does he sit
      in his Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
      cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
      evolution of mankind or for world
      peace? Many religious leaders and
      Maharishis who don't go out and
      preach at least pray for intercession.
      What does Klemp do except write
      trashy books and promote his $$$
      religious wares via his volunteer
      grass roots sales staff and via the
      pros at the ESC.

      Prometheus

    • prometheus_973
      Hello Non eckchains, Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences. I ll include some comments as well. Non eckchains wrote: Actually, and
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 6, 2012
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        Hello Non eckchains,
        Thanks for taking the time
        to share your experiences.
        I'll include some comments
        as well.

        "Non" eckchains wrote:
        Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
        of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
        articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
        like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
        place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
        weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
        course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
        discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
        thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
        just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
        thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
        thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
        blah....!?


        ME: I think that many ECKists
        were very gung-ho when they
        started out. We, and those we
        associated with, were fanatics.
        We'd find the other fanatics at
        the seminars because we all
        volunteered in order to get
        close to and rub elbows with
        the higher ups and would be
        assigned backstage or in
        back hallways where the LEM
        would sneak in with his entourage.
        Sometimes a half dozen of us
        would stay in the same room.

        Also, In the old days it was okay
        to receive and study two discourses
        at the same time and my mentor,
        a 7th initiate, recommended
        that I do that. One discourse
        was for private study, one was
        for Satsang class.

        BTW-I wrote to celebrities recommending
        Eckankar too, but Nixon wasn't
        included. Quite frankly, I can't
        remember who they were, but
        that's okay because it would
        just embarrass me to remember.
        It was fun at first but became
        bullshit when I saw ECkists who
        were not as spiritually advanced
        as others getting promoted. And,
        it happened all the time because
        Gross and Klemp had no clue.
        They depend upon others to tell
        them who should be promoted.


        Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
        getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
        wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
        already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
        very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
        seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
        there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
        that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
        is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
        beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
        it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
        of kal, right?


        ME: Yes, that's about it. And, yes, one isn't
        permitted to keep asking questions, unless,
        you're new. After you get the 2nd initiation
        that's it for questions... no more! You're
        supposed to get your answers on the inner
        or have faith that you're being led by the
        inner master even if you can't dream of him.
        Generally, even non-eckists can see a blue
        light when they meditate. It's supposed to
        be the Blue Light of the Mental Plane versus
        the Mahanta. Maybe that's why it's interchangeable
        since more people tend to see a blue light.
        But, prior to EK I would see yellow and white
        lights too.



        I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
        on cults of all kinds and recovery.

        http://www.refocus.org/


        At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
        really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
        denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
        pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
        ever more deluded.


        ME: The thing is, most of us delude
        ourselves to varying degrees about
        all sorts of things whether known,
        or repressed and forgotten. It can
        be fun to dream and pretend and
        to deny reality, but it does catch
        up to people, usually, when it's
        almost too late. Being young at
        heart doesn't mean we shouldn't
        grow up and see beyond the make-
        believe or the lies. ECKists are generally
        very passive and this is what makes
        them lazy thinkers. They get too
        comfortable. But, Klemp keeps them
        busy so they don't have time to think
        about life without Eckankar. The
        irony is the Easy Way Discourse because
        Eckankar, itself, is the Easy Way.


        My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
        and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
        denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
        others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
        and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
        does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
        Truth to them is just TWISTED.


        ME: I always thought it was odd
        to claim that Jesus was a 2nd initiate
        and that Harold was a childhood
        friend of Jesus. It's especially odd
        when the liars Twitchell, Gross,
        and Klemp couldn't/can't hold a
        candle to what Jesus did and taught.
        EKists act like they are far above
        others in awareness/spiritual
        consciousness etc. with their fake
        initiations, but look at how H.I.s
        treat fellow EKists let alone what
        they think of the public. It's really
        very hypocritical of ECKists when
        they can't even follow the teachings
        of love, compassion, empathy
        (Klemp's nemesis), tolerance,
        and forgiveness as "2nd initiate"
        Jesus lived and taught. [end]
        -prometheus



        noneckster ; )
      • Non
        Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 6, 2012
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          Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

          It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

          A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

          non eckster ; )

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

          Hello All,
          Thanks again for the insights.
          I think I'll make a few comments
          of my own.

          "Non"eckchains wrote:
          Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
          of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
          articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
          like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
          place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
          weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
          course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
          discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
          thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
          just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
          thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
          thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
          blah....!?

          Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
          getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
          wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
          already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
          very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
          seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
          there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
          that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
          is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
          beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
          it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
          of kal, right?

          ME: It's true that they always
          reflect the blame for your
          questions back at you in order
          to control and manipulate you.
          Klemp never takes responsibility
          for anything that happens within
          Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
          Yet, EKies will pray to him via
          asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
          ego) for parking spaces and
          for answers to their questions,
          or for job decisions and for
          health & prosperity. He's supposed
          to be taking care of his H.I.s
          but it doesn't happen anymore
          for Ekists than it does for
          Christians... actually "miracles"
          happen less for ECKists than
          for Christians. Google and
          compare the testimonials!


          I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
          on cults of all kinds and recovery.

          http://www.refocus.org/

          noneckster ; )

          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

          It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
          eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
          right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
          abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.


          ME: It's that way with all religions.
          The more the merrier... not! Yes,
          the more people believing the same
          lies and conforming to the same rules
          and laws is proof, for many, that the
          religion is valid and true. How can
          so many intelligent people be fooled
          an be wrong?



          I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
          sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
          they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
          to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
          institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
          driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
          that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
          suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
          about his beliefs.

          How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
          necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
          eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
          But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
          ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
          eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
          is.

          ME: One becomes focused upon
          how to explain questions away
          without considering the premise
          that those uniform explanations
          are inaccurate and are designed
          to be intentionally misleading.



          I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
          in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
          believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
          suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
          What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
          what the teachings did for you in your own life.


          ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
          ECK booth at a secular event that
          was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
          Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
          event you might have a different
          experience. I have. Think about
          a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
          750,000 in attendance. Or, how
          about an EK Booth at a street fair
          across from a major university.
          Anyway, we did come under verbal
          attack from time-to-time. Of course
          we really didn't care if they joined
          or not... that was their karma...
          we did our part by being there
          if nothing else. That reminds me.
          Remember how we were told that
          when we stir up deep seated truth
          that if will affect people negatively
          because they can't handle it. The
          same goes for what we're saying,
          here, about Eckankar. The Truth
          is being stirred up and ECkists
          can't handle it and that's what
          upsets them. Gotta Go... later!




          Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
          told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
          written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
          work.

          I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
          they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
          like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
          they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
          from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
          of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
          they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
          The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
          of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
          from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
          that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
          fed to me anyway.

          Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
          teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
          Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
          slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
          members.

          Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
          numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
          would be interesting to know however.

          I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
          supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
          worlds,
          so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
          he do
          something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?


          eckchains wrote:

          At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
          really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
          denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
          pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
          ever more deluded.
          >
          My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
          and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
          denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
          others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
          and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
          does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
          >
          Truth to them is just TWISTED.
          >
          noneckster ; )
        • Russ Rodnick
          I agree with your perception regarding the imaginary greatness. To reveal a personal truth, for me these ideals covered my insecurities allowing me to get out
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 7, 2012
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            I agree with your perception regarding the imaginary greatness. To reveal a personal truth, for me these ideals covered my insecurities allowing me to get out of myself which is a good thing, I think. What good came of it, for me it was the first time that I felt an identification within myself with the idea of being a vehicle for spirit. Post-eck, I am still becoming a vehicle for spirit, but it doesn't have anything to do with HKor other imaginary masters. However, I do feel a Presence at times, that feels higher but is devoid of personality. I think it is a part of myself rather than another person or entity. Freedom.
             
            so, it's not all black and white for me, you know what I mean?
             
            Good wishes to you!

            Russ

            From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 11:24 PM
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
             
            I think we believed the lies because we simply wanted too.  We thought eckankar filled a void in our lives so we chose to believe the rediculous stuff that helped explain away the inconsistances.  Then, if you got any sense at all, one day, you just have to face the fact that, it is all quite rediculous and the man in charge isn't anything special and even all the other eckist start to appear to be really lacking in social and spiritual graces.  I give thanks everyday that I am not still among the blind.  I give thanks that there are others like you that came out of eckankar's web of spiritual death.  It would be nice if we could wave a magic wand and have all the still deceived become wide open to the truth about eckankar.  We all know it is not going to happen that way.  I believe it is a person's ego that keeps them spell bound in eckankar.  The belief that they are special and that they are set apart from the rest of the world in their specialness is too much to relinquish.  And so they continue to believe that klemp is God made flesh and eckankar is the path to spiritual freedom while they scurry around to do his bidding and give him as much money as they can afford to give.  So friends let us consider ourselves the lucky ones.  Where once we were among the deceived, we did survive the ordeal and maybe we are all just a bit wiser about con artists and how greed can cause some to inslave others for profit.  Bless each and all who did make the journey through the smoke and mirrors of eckankar and can today say it has no more hold on them.  And may all of us think of those still with in it's grasp with compassion.  Chosing the truth isn't always easy over a life of imaginary greatness. 

            --- On Tue, 7/31/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2012, 9:00 PM

             
            Hello All, I was thinking about some of the lies we were told while in Eckankar and of how and why we accepted them so readily. For instance, there's the long standing rule that EKists don't proselytize, in part, due to the Law of Non-Interference. But, all this actually meant is that ECKists don't go door-to-door like Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. Proselytizing means trying to: "proselytize |&#712;präs&#601;l&#601;&#716;t&#299;z| verb [ with obj. ] convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another: the program did have a tremendous evangelical effect, proselytizing many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing for converts | (as noun proselytizing) : no amount of proselytizing was going to change their minds. • advocate or promote (a belief or course of action): Davis wanted to share his concept and proselytize his ideas." Leaving books and brochures in laundromats or bookmarks in books at libraries and in bookstores is not following the Law of Non-Interference. Neither is having EK Internet Videos or booths at Psychic Fairs. BTW- Let me speak about another thought. Does Klemp have a sense of divine intercession? Does he sit in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man cave and HU/pray for the spiritual evolution of mankind or for world peace? Many religious leaders and Maharishis who don't go out and preach at least pray for intercession. What does Klemp do except write trashy books and promote his $$$ religious wares via his volunteer grass roots sales staff and via the pros at the ESC. Prometheus
          • Russ Rodnick
            I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path.
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 7, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path. Eckankar fit the bill. At the time I was really into magical thinking, dreams as a doorway to invisible worlds and the mythology of the superman. I couldn't believe in the normal, ordinary as being all there was. Now, however I feel that everyone who is 'doing' eckankar are believers. but not in themselves, as they really are, but in a 'thing' outside themselves. Courage isn't something born in the heart of those who follow blindly evading the 500 pound elephant in the room, in favor of courting the Darshan and being lifted into the higher planes. I think the experiences people are looking for are just inside the door. We don't have to be led to ourselves do we? just be it, create the flow and it will be your reality.
               
              Russ

              From: Non <eckchains@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 11:14 PM
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

               
              Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

              It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

              A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

              non eckster ; )

              --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

              Hello All,
              Thanks again for the insights.
              I think I'll make a few comments
              of my own.

              "Non"eckchains wrote:
              Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
              of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
              articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
              like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
              place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
              weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
              course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
              discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
              thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
              just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
              thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
              thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
              blah....!?

              Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
              getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
              wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
              already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
              very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
              seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
              there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
              that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
              is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
              beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
              it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
              of kal, right?

              ME: It's true that they always
              reflect the blame for your
              questions back at you in order
              to control and manipulate you.
              Klemp never takes responsibility
              for anything that happens within
              Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
              Yet, EKies will pray to him via
              asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
              ego) for parking spaces and
              for answers to their questions,
              or for job decisions and for
              health & prosperity. He's supposed
              to be taking care of his H.I.s
              but it doesn't happen anymore
              for Ekists than it does for
              Christians... actually "miracles"
              happen less for ECKists than
              for Christians. Google and
              compare the testimonials!

              I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
              on cults of all kinds and recovery.

              http://www.refocus.org/

              noneckster ; )

              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

              It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
              eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
              right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
              abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.

              ME: It's that way with all religions.
              The more the merrier... not! Yes,
              the more people believing the same
              lies and conforming to the same rules
              and laws is proof, for many, that the
              religion is valid and true. How can
              so many intelligent people be fooled
              an be wrong?

              I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
              sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
              they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
              to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
              institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
              driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
              that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
              suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
              about his beliefs.

              How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
              necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
              eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
              But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
              ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
              eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
              is.

              ME: One becomes focused upon
              how to explain questions away
              without considering the premise
              that those uniform explanations
              are inaccurate and are designed
              to be intentionally misleading.

              I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
              in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
              believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
              suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
              What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
              what the teachings did for you in your own life.

              ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
              ECK booth at a secular event that
              was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
              Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
              event you might have a different
              experience. I have. Think about
              a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
              750,000 in attendance. Or, how
              about an EK Booth at a street fair
              across from a major university.
              Anyway, we did come under verbal
              attack from time-to-time. Of course
              we really didn't care if they joined
              or not... that was their karma...
              we did our part by being there
              if nothing else. That reminds me.
              Remember how we were told that
              when we stir up deep seated truth
              that if will affect people negatively
              because they can't handle it. The
              same goes for what we're saying,
              here, about Eckankar. The Truth
              is being stirred up and ECkists
              can't handle it and that's what
              upsets them. Gotta Go... later!

              Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
              told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
              written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
              work.

              I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
              they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
              like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
              they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
              from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
              of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
              they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
              The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
              of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
              from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
              that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
              fed to me anyway.

              Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
              teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
              Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
              slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
              members.

              Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
              numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
              would be interesting to know however.

              I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
              supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
              worlds,
              so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
              he do
              something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?

              eckchains wrote:

              At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
              really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
              denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
              pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
              ever more deluded.
              >
              My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
              and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
              denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
              others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
              and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
              does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
              >
              Truth to them is just TWISTED.
              >
              noneckster ; )



            • Janice Pfeiffer
              I also thank you non eckester. Your contributions are invaluable to my learning and growth.  I feel most fortunate indeed to have the insights of all of
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 8, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                I also thank you non eckester. Your contributions are invaluable to my learning and growth.  I feel most fortunate indeed to have the insights of all of you. 
                 
                To Russ:  I found your mentioning living in a communial situation very interesting.  I would so like to hear more if you can share it.
                 
                In closing, I would like you all to know that I feel blessed by being a part of this site and having the opportunity to see more of the hearts and minds of all of you as we discuss our experiences in eckankar. 
                 
                Each and every one of you shows true beauty and wisdom, much more evident than that of devout eckist.  So my brothers and sisters, if we failed to fit into the eckankar scheme it must mean we had grown past it's boundaries. 
                 
                Bless you all as you have blessed me with your knowledge.
                 


                --- On Wed, 8/8/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
                To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Wednesday, August 8, 2012, 1:29 AM

                 
                I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path. Eckankar fit the bill. At the time I was really into magical thinking, dreams as a doorway to invisible worlds and the mythology of the superman. I couldn't believe in the normal, ordinary as being all there was. Now, however I feel that everyone who is 'doing' eckankar are believers. but not in themselves, as they really are, but in a 'thing' outside themselves. Courage isn't something born in the heart of those who follow blindly evading the 500 pound elephant in the room, in favor of courting the Darshan and being lifted into the higher planes. I think the experiences people are looking for are just inside the door. We don't have to be led to ourselves do we? just be it, create the flow and it will be your reality.
                 
                Russ

                From: Non <eckchains@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 11:14 PM
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                 
                Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

                It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

                A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

                non eckster ; )

                --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                Hello All,
                Thanks again for the insights.
                I think I'll make a few comments
                of my own.

                "Non"eckchains wrote:
                Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
                of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
                articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
                like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
                place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
                weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
                course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
                discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
                thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
                just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
                thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
                thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
                blah....!?

                Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
                getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
                wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
                already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
                very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
                seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
                there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
                that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
                is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
                beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
                it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
                of kal, right?

                ME: It's true that they always
                reflect the blame for your
                questions back at you in order
                to control and manipulate you.
                Klemp never takes responsibility
                for anything that happens within
                Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
                Yet, EKies will pray to him via
                asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
                ego) for parking spaces and
                for answers to their questions,
                or for job decisions and for
                health & prosperity. He's supposed
                to be taking care of his H.I.s
                but it doesn't happen anymore
                for Ekists than it does for
                Christians... actually "miracles"
                happen less for ECKists than
                for Christians. Google and
                compare the testimonials!

                I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
                on cults of all kinds and recovery.

                http://www.refocus.org/

                noneckster ; )

                Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
                eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
                right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
                abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.

                ME: It's that way with all religions.
                The more the merrier... not! Yes,
                the more people believing the same
                lies and conforming to the same rules
                and laws is proof, for many, that the
                religion is valid and true. How can
                so many intelligent people be fooled
                an be wrong?

                I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
                sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
                they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
                to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
                institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
                driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
                that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
                suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
                about his beliefs.

                How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
                necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
                eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
                But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
                ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
                eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
                is.

                ME: One becomes focused upon
                how to explain questions away
                without considering the premise
                that those uniform explanations
                are inaccurate and are designed
                to be intentionally misleading.

                I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
                in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
                believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
                suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
                What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
                what the teachings did for you in your own life.

                ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
                ECK booth at a secular event that
                was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
                Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
                event you might have a different
                experience. I have. Think about
                a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
                750,000 in attendance. Or, how
                about an EK Booth at a street fair
                across from a major university.
                Anyway, we did come under verbal
                attack from time-to-time. Of course
                we really didn't care if they joined
                or not... that was their karma...
                we did our part by being there
                if nothing else. That reminds me.
                Remember how we were told that
                when we stir up deep seated truth
                that if will affect people negatively
                because they can't handle it. The
                same goes for what we're saying,
                here, about Eckankar. The Truth
                is being stirred up and ECkists
                can't handle it and that's what
                upsets them. Gotta Go... later!

                Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
                told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
                written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
                work.

                I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
                they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
                like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
                they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
                from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
                of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
                they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
                The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
                of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
                from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
                that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
                fed to me anyway.

                Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
                teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
                Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
                slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
                members.

                Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
                numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
                would be interesting to know however.

                I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
                supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
                worlds,
                so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
                he do
                something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?

                eckchains wrote:

                At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
                really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
                denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
                pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
                ever more deluded.
                >
                My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
                and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
                denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
                others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
                and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
                does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
                >
                Truth to them is just TWISTED.
                >
                noneckster ; )



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