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Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, Thanks for the reply. Good insights! I d like to comment as well. Janice Pfeiffer (JP) wrote: I think we believed the lies because we simply wanted
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 5, 2012
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      Hello All,
      Thanks for the reply.
      Good insights! I'd like
      to comment as well.

      Janice Pfeiffer (JP) wrote:
      I think we believed the lies because
      we simply wanted too. We thought
      eckankar filled a void in our lives
      so we chose to believe the rediculous
      stuff that helped explain away the
      inconsistances.

      ME: EK does appeal to those
      who are nonconformists and
      who are interested in metaphysics,
      and New Age topics and agendas.
      Yes, it did fill a void because our
      former religions we were raised
      in did not answer questions that
      we wanted to "know." These religions
      were based upon belief, faith, and
      scripture written, edited, and rewritten
      by many authors and scribes, who
      are unknown. And it took place
      2,000-3,000 years ago (except for
      the many rewrites). But, religious
      history is much more recent if you're
      a Mormon, Scientologist, or an ECKist!


      JP: Then, if you got any sense at
      all, one day, you just have to face
      the fact that, it is all quite rediculous
      and the man in charge isn't anything
      special and even all the other eckist
      start to appear to be really lacking
      in social and spiritual graces.

      ME: So true! I knew quite a few
      who were high up in their local
      Satsang Orgs who seemed, and
      were, very unstable.


      JP: I give thanks everyday that I
      am not still among the blind. I give
      thanks that there are others like
      you that came out of eckankar's
      web of spiritual death. It would
      be nice if we could wave a magic
      wand and have all the still deceived
      become wide open to the truth
      about eckankar. We all know it
      is not going to happen that way.

      ME: If I had a magic wand I'd
      change more than just Eckankar.
      Ford's book (Confessions of A
      God-Seeker) opened things up
      for me. I'm just glad I heard about
      it and then paid the money to buy
      it and then took my time to read
      and reflect upon what was being
      said. I, of course, had to verify
      the information given by Ford
      Johnson and purchased "The
      Path of the Masters." I'd met Ford,
      knew he was a 7th initiate and
      a RESA, as well as a Harvard educated
      attorney, and I had heard him
      speak so I respected his intellect.
      I must admit that his book was
      not a pleasant read because it
      was shattering my whole belief
      system and trust.

      There're two or three funny
      stories about Ford's book.

      When it was in manuscript
      form Ford emailed some of
      it to 7th Initiates. I had one
      tell me about it and offered
      to print it out for me. I declined
      the offer.

      Later, a high ranking up and
      coming local EKist and wannabe
      RESA, who was a trustee on the
      local Board, told me about Ford's
      book. Of all people! Yes, he's
      still a member of EK and still
      looking for that 7th and RESA
      position.

      Then, there was this really
      strangely odd EK couple that
      speed read Ford's book and,
      then, threw it in the trash.
      Klemp had printed some of
      their embellished stories and
      during one seminar mentioned
      them by name and pointed
      them out. They were quite proud
      and thought they were above
      even HK's RESA's and a law unto
      themselves and shared in the
      "Mahanta Consciousness."
      Anywho, they put it out there
      that if anyone wanted to discuss
      Ford's book that they would
      take any calls and turn any
      confused EKists around and
      back to the "True Religion."



      JP: I believe it is a person's ego
      that keeps them spell bound in
      eckankar. The belief that they are
      special and that they are set apart
      from the rest of the world in their
      specialness is too much to relinquish.
      And so they continue to believe that
      klemp is God made flesh and eckankar
      is the path to spiritual freedom while
      they scurry around to do his bidding
      and give him as much money as
      they can afford to give.

      ME: Those Initiations are an ego
      Trap. ECKists claim to practice
      Detachment, but coveting initiations
      prevents Detachment. It's a tease
      or would HK call it a Test? Regardless
      of how Klemp would deflect it
      or how EKists rationalize it away
      the EK Initiations bind them to
      desires and to the ego.

      No "true blue" ECKist can say that
      they don't desire another Initiation.

      This is why some longtime 7ths,
      and former RESAs, like Fran Blackwell
      (bless her heart) will share that
      "on the Inner she is an 8th." H.I.s
      have discovered the loophole in
      The Masters 4 Discourse
      telling about the Ninth Initiation...
      that there must be Three Stages
      to every Initiation since there
      are Three Stages with the Ninth
      and everything EK must follow
      the Principle of the Threes. Thus,
      Two Stages are on the Inner
      and the Third and Final Stage
      is the Outer Confirmation. Therefore,
      ON THE INNER, before the Final
      Outer Confirmation Stage, every
      ECKist could claim to be One
      Initiation Higher that their EK
      Membership Card indicates.
      It's more delusion, but it's what
      makes all religions work!



      JP: So friends let us consider ourselves
      the lucky ones. Where once we were
      among the deceived, we did survive
      the ordeal and maybe we are all just
      a bit wiser about con artists and how
      greed can cause some to inslave others
      for profit. Bless each and all who did
      make the journey through the smoke
      and mirrors of eckankar and can today
      say it has no more hold on them. And
      may all of us think of those still with
      in it's grasp with compassion. Chosing
      the truth isn't always easy over a life
      of imaginary greatness.

      ME: I was always seeking the TRUTH
      and Klemp's presence and redundant
      message certainly isn't anywhere close
      to what I was looking for. At first it had
      promise, but after the trap had sprung
      I was kept too busy with distractions
      and wasn't allowed to question which
      would indicate that I was not "ready"
      for that next initiation.

      Prometheus


      prometheus wrote:

      Hello All,
      I was thinking about some
      of the lies we were told
      while in Eckankar and of
      how and why we accepted
      them so readily.

      For instance, there's the
      long standing rule that
      EKists don't proselytize,
      in part, due to the Law
      of Non-Interference.

      But, all this actually meant
      is that ECKists don't go
      door-to-door like Mormons
      and Jehovah Witnesses.
      Proselytizing means trying
      to:

      "proselytize
      verb [ with obj. ]
      convert or attempt to convert
      (someone) from one religion,
      belief, or opinion to another:

      the program did have a tremendous
      evangelical effect, proselytizing
      many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing

      for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
      no amount of proselytizing was
      going to change their minds.

      advocate or promote (a belief
      or course of action): Davis wanted
      to share his concept and proselytize
      his ideas."
      ***
      Leaving books and brochures
      in laundromats or bookmarks
      in books at libraries and in
      bookstores is not following
      the Law of Non-Interference.
      Neither is having EK Internet
      Videos or booths at Psychic
      Fairs.

      BTW- Let me speak about another
      thought. Does Klemp have a sense
      of divine intercession? Does he sit
      in his Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
      cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
      evolution of mankind or for world
      peace? Many religious leaders and
      Maharishis who don't go out and
      preach at least pray for intercession.
      What does Klemp do except write
      trashy books and promote his $$$
      religious wares via his volunteer
      grass roots sales staff and via the
      pros at the ESC.

      Prometheus
    • prometheus_973
      Hello All, Thanks again for the insights. I think I ll make a few comments of my own. Non eckchains wrote: Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 5, 2012
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        Hello All,
        Thanks again for the insights.
        I think I'll make a few comments
        of my own.

        "Non"eckchains wrote:
        Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
        of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
        articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
        like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
        place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
        weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
        course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
        discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
        thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
        just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
        thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
        thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
        blah....!?

        Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
        getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
        wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
        already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
        very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
        seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
        there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
        that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
        is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
        beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
        it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
        of kal, right?

        ME: It's true that they always
        reflect the blame for your
        questions back at you in order
        to control and manipulate you.
        Klemp never takes responsibility
        for anything that happens within
        Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
        Yet, EKies will pray to him via
        asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
        ego) for parking spaces and
        for answers to their questions,
        or for job decisions and for
        health & prosperity. He's supposed
        to be taking care of his H.I.s
        but it doesn't happen anymore
        for Ekists than it does for
        Christians... actually "miracles"
        happen less for ECKists than
        for Christians. Google and
        compare the testimonials!


        I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
        on cults of all kinds and recovery.

        http://www.refocus.org/

        noneckster ; )

        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

        It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
        eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
        right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
        abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.


        ME: It's that way with all religions.
        The more the merrier... not! Yes,
        the more people believing the same
        lies and conforming to the same rules
        and laws is proof, for many, that the
        religion is valid and true. How can
        so many intelligent people be fooled
        an be wrong?



        I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
        sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
        they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
        to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
        institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
        driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
        that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
        suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
        about his beliefs.

        How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
        necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
        eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
        But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
        ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
        eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
        is.

        ME: One becomes focused upon
        how to explain questions away
        without considering the premise
        that those uniform explanations
        are inaccurate and are designed
        to be intentionally misleading.



        I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
        in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
        believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
        suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
        What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
        what the teachings did for you in your own life.


        ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
        ECK booth at a secular event that
        was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
        Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
        event you might have a different
        experience. I have. Think about
        a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
        750,000 in attendance. Or, how
        about an EK Booth at a street fair
        across from a major university.
        Anyway, we did come under verbal
        attack from time-to-time. Of course
        we really didn't care if they joined
        or not... that was their karma...
        we did our part by being there
        if nothing else. That reminds me.
        Remember how we were told that
        when we stir up deep seated truth
        that if will affect people negatively
        because they can't handle it. The
        same goes for what we're saying,
        here, about Eckankar. The Truth
        is being stirred up and ECkists
        can't handle it and that's what
        upsets them. Gotta Go... later!




        Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
        told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
        written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
        work.

        I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
        they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
        like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
        they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
        from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
        of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
        they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
        The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
        of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
        from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
        that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
        fed to me anyway.

        Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
        teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
        Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
        slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
        members.

        Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
        numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
        would be interesting to know however.

        I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
        supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower worlds,
        so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't he do
        something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?


        eckchains wrote:

        At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
        really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
        denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
        pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
        ever more deluded.
        >
        My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
        and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
        denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
        others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
        and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
        does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
        >
        Truth to them is just TWISTED.
        >
        noneckster ; )
      • Janice Pfeiffer
        Thank you Prometheus,   You always say it so well.   It wasn t Ford s book that shook me awake.  It was being told by a high initiate how initiations really
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 5, 2012
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          Thank you Prometheus,
           
          You always say it so well.
           
          It wasn't Ford's book that shook me awake.  It was being told by a high initiate how initiations really come about and how high initiates report about lower people that usually causes an initiation or prevents one.  I saw so much back biting going on that I found it sincerely offensive that it was these people who would really decide whether or not I got an initiation.   At that time, initiations became worthless to me. 
           
          When I asked the questions about such things, the area resa went ballistic on me.  I guess I was supposed to feel bad about myself for asking.  Instead of being spiritually strong, eckist looked like a bunch of whiny cry babies and I felt that my own growth had taken a some what backwards turn since I joined eckankar.  There wasn't anything spiritual in what I was seeing and I decided I would rather decide for myself where I stood. 
           
          His behavior along with everything else I had learned was enough to clear my head.  I bought and read Ford's book a few months later.  Coming from some one who had been prominent in eckankar. it helped me deal with my angry feelings about the lies and betrayal. 
           
          Funny, high initiates can pass judgment on lower chelas but a lower person can't even ask questions about how things are done.  That to me says they want to hide the truth from you as long as possible.  Finally, I don't see any value of initiations based on gossip and another persons prejudiced observations.
           
          I got the pink slip after I had decided to quit.  I guess promoting an unworthy person was better than losing a dues paying member.  I threw the thing in the trash were it belonged.  I haven't spoken to an eckist since then nor do I care to. 
           
          I wish non of them any harm but I could never tolerate hearing that dribble again. 


          --- On Sun, 8/5/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, August 5, 2012, 6:10 PM

           
          Hello All,
          Thanks for the reply.
          Good insights! I'd like
          to comment as well.

          Janice Pfeiffer (JP) wrote:
          I think we believed the lies because
          we simply wanted too. We thought
          eckankar filled a void in our lives
          so we chose to believe the rediculous
          stuff that helped explain away the
          inconsistances.

          ME: EK does appeal to those
          who are nonconformists and
          who are interested in metaphysics,
          and New Age topics and agendas.
          Yes, it did fill a void because our
          former religions we were raised
          in did not answer questions that
          we wanted to "know." These religions
          were based upon belief, faith, and
          scripture written, edited, and rewritten
          by many authors and scribes, who
          are unknown. And it took place
          2,000-3,000 years ago (except for
          the many rewrites). But, religious
          history is much more recent if you're
          a Mormon, Scientologist, or an ECKist!

          JP: Then, if you got any sense at
          all, one day, you just have to face
          the fact that, it is all quite rediculous
          and the man in charge isn't anything
          special and even all the other eckist
          start to appear to be really lacking
          in social and spiritual graces.

          ME: So true! I knew quite a few
          who were high up in their local
          Satsang Orgs who seemed, and
          were, very unstable.


          JP: I give thanks everyday that I
          am not still among the blind. I give
          thanks that there are others like
          you that came out of eckankar's
          web of spiritual death. It would
          be nice if we could wave a magic
          wand and have all the still deceived
          become wide open to the truth
          about eckankar. We all know it
          is not going to happen that way.

          ME: If I had a magic wand I'd
          change more than just Eckankar.
          Ford's book (Confessions of A
          God-Seeker) opened things up
          for me. I'm just glad I heard about
          it and then paid the money to buy
          it and then took my time to read
          and reflect upon what was being
          said. I, of course, had to verify
          the information given by Ford
          Johnson and purchased "The
          Path of the Masters." I'd met Ford,
          knew he was a 7th initiate and
          a RESA, as well as a Harvard educated
          attorney, and I had heard him
          speak so I respected his intellect.
          I must admit that his book was
          not a pleasant read because it
          was shattering my whole belief
          system and trust.

          There're two or three funny
          stories about Ford's book.

          When it was in manuscript
          form Ford emailed some of
          it to 7th Initiates. I had one
          tell me about it and offered
          to print it out for me. I declined
          the offer.

          Later, a high ranking up and
          coming local EKist and wannabe
          RESA, who was a trustee on the
          local Board, told me about Ford's
          book. Of all people! Yes, he's
          still a member of EK and still
          looking for that 7th and RESA
          position.

          Then, there was this really
          strangely odd EK couple that
          speed read Ford's book and,
          then, threw it in the trash.
          Klemp had printed some of
          their embellished stories and
          during one seminar mentioned
          them by name and pointed
          them out. They were quite proud
          and thought they were above
          even HK's RESA's and a law unto
          themselves and shared in the
          "Mahanta Consciousness."
          Anywho, they put it out there
          that if anyone wanted to discuss
          Ford's book that they would
          take any calls and turn any
          confused EKists around and
          back to the "True Religion."

          JP: I believe it is a person's ego
          that keeps them spell bound in
          eckankar. The belief that they are
          special and that they are set apart
          from the rest of the world in their
          specialness is too much to relinquish.
          And so they continue to believe that
          klemp is God made flesh and eckankar
          is the path to spiritual freedom while
          they scurry around to do his bidding
          and give him as much money as
          they can afford to give.

          ME: Those Initiations are an ego
          Trap. ECKists claim to practice
          Detachment, but coveting initiations
          prevents Detachment. It's a tease
          or would HK call it a Test? Regardless
          of how Klemp would deflect it
          or how EKists rationalize it away
          the EK Initiations bind them to
          desires and to the ego.

          No "true blue" ECKist can say that
          they don't desire another Initiation.

          This is why some longtime 7ths,
          and former RESAs, like Fran Blackwell
          (bless her heart) will share that
          "on the Inner she is an 8th." H.I.s
          have discovered the loophole in
          The Masters 4 Discourse
          telling about the Ninth Initiation...
          that there must be Three Stages
          to every Initiation since there
          are Three Stages with the Ninth
          and everything EK must follow
          the Principle of the Threes. Thus,
          Two Stages are on the Inner
          and the Third and Final Stage
          is the Outer Confirmation. Therefore,
          ON THE INNER, before the Final
          Outer Confirmation Stage, every
          ECKist could claim to be One
          Initiation Higher that their EK
          Membership Card indicates.
          It's more delusion, but it's what
          makes all religions work!

          JP: So friends let us consider ourselves
          the lucky ones. Where once we were
          among the deceived, we did survive
          the ordeal and maybe we are all just
          a bit wiser about con artists and how
          greed can cause some to inslave others
          for profit. Bless each and all who did
          make the journey through the smoke
          and mirrors of eckankar and can today
          say it has no more hold on them. And
          may all of us think of those still with
          in it's grasp with compassion. Chosing
          the truth isn't always easy over a life
          of imaginary greatness.

          ME: I was always seeking the TRUTH
          and Klemp's presence and redundant
          message certainly isn't anywhere close
          to what I was looking for. At first it had
          promise, but after the trap had sprung
          I was kept too busy with distractions
          and wasn't allowed to question which
          would indicate that I was not "ready"
          for that next initiation.

          Prometheus

          prometheus wrote:

          Hello All,
          I was thinking about some
          of the lies we were told
          while in Eckankar and of
          how and why we accepted
          them so readily.

          For instance, there's the
          long standing rule that
          EKists don't proselytize,
          in part, due to the Law
          of Non-Interference.

          But, all this actually meant
          is that ECKists don't go
          door-to-door like Mormons
          and Jehovah Witnesses.
          Proselytizing means trying
          to:

          "proselytize
          verb [ with obj. ]
          convert or attempt to convert
          (someone) from one religion,
          belief, or opinion to another:

          the program did have a tremendous
          evangelical effect, proselytizing
          many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing

          for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
          no amount of proselytizing was
          going to change their minds.

          advocate or promote (a belief
          or course of action): Davis wanted
          to share his concept and proselytize
          his ideas."
          ***
          Leaving books and brochures
          in laundromats or bookmarks
          in books at libraries and in
          bookstores is not following
          the Law of Non-Interference.
          Neither is having EK Internet
          Videos or booths at Psychic
          Fairs.

          BTW- Let me speak about another
          thought. Does Klemp have a sense
          of divine intercession? Does he sit
          in his Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
          cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
          evolution of mankind or for world
          peace? Many religious leaders and
          Maharishis who don't go out and
          preach at least pray for intercession.
          What does Klemp do except write
          trashy books and promote his $$$
          religious wares via his volunteer
          grass roots sales staff and via the
          pros at the ESC.

          Prometheus

        • prometheus_973
          Hello Non eckchains, Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences. I ll include some comments as well. Non eckchains wrote: Actually, and
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 6, 2012
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            Hello Non eckchains,
            Thanks for taking the time
            to share your experiences.
            I'll include some comments
            as well.

            "Non" eckchains wrote:
            Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
            of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
            articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
            like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
            place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
            weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
            course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
            discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
            thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
            just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
            thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
            thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
            blah....!?


            ME: I think that many ECKists
            were very gung-ho when they
            started out. We, and those we
            associated with, were fanatics.
            We'd find the other fanatics at
            the seminars because we all
            volunteered in order to get
            close to and rub elbows with
            the higher ups and would be
            assigned backstage or in
            back hallways where the LEM
            would sneak in with his entourage.
            Sometimes a half dozen of us
            would stay in the same room.

            Also, In the old days it was okay
            to receive and study two discourses
            at the same time and my mentor,
            a 7th initiate, recommended
            that I do that. One discourse
            was for private study, one was
            for Satsang class.

            BTW-I wrote to celebrities recommending
            Eckankar too, but Nixon wasn't
            included. Quite frankly, I can't
            remember who they were, but
            that's okay because it would
            just embarrass me to remember.
            It was fun at first but became
            bullshit when I saw ECkists who
            were not as spiritually advanced
            as others getting promoted. And,
            it happened all the time because
            Gross and Klemp had no clue.
            They depend upon others to tell
            them who should be promoted.


            Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
            getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
            wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
            already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
            very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
            seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
            there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
            that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
            is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
            beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
            it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
            of kal, right?


            ME: Yes, that's about it. And, yes, one isn't
            permitted to keep asking questions, unless,
            you're new. After you get the 2nd initiation
            that's it for questions... no more! You're
            supposed to get your answers on the inner
            or have faith that you're being led by the
            inner master even if you can't dream of him.
            Generally, even non-eckists can see a blue
            light when they meditate. It's supposed to
            be the Blue Light of the Mental Plane versus
            the Mahanta. Maybe that's why it's interchangeable
            since more people tend to see a blue light.
            But, prior to EK I would see yellow and white
            lights too.



            I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
            on cults of all kinds and recovery.

            http://www.refocus.org/


            At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
            really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
            denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
            pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
            ever more deluded.


            ME: The thing is, most of us delude
            ourselves to varying degrees about
            all sorts of things whether known,
            or repressed and forgotten. It can
            be fun to dream and pretend and
            to deny reality, but it does catch
            up to people, usually, when it's
            almost too late. Being young at
            heart doesn't mean we shouldn't
            grow up and see beyond the make-
            believe or the lies. ECKists are generally
            very passive and this is what makes
            them lazy thinkers. They get too
            comfortable. But, Klemp keeps them
            busy so they don't have time to think
            about life without Eckankar. The
            irony is the Easy Way Discourse because
            Eckankar, itself, is the Easy Way.


            My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
            and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
            denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
            others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
            and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
            does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
            Truth to them is just TWISTED.


            ME: I always thought it was odd
            to claim that Jesus was a 2nd initiate
            and that Harold was a childhood
            friend of Jesus. It's especially odd
            when the liars Twitchell, Gross,
            and Klemp couldn't/can't hold a
            candle to what Jesus did and taught.
            EKists act like they are far above
            others in awareness/spiritual
            consciousness etc. with their fake
            initiations, but look at how H.I.s
            treat fellow EKists let alone what
            they think of the public. It's really
            very hypocritical of ECKists when
            they can't even follow the teachings
            of love, compassion, empathy
            (Klemp's nemesis), tolerance,
            and forgiveness as "2nd initiate"
            Jesus lived and taught. [end]
            -prometheus



            noneckster ; )
          • Non
            Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 6, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

              It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

              A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

              non eckster ; )

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

              Hello All,
              Thanks again for the insights.
              I think I'll make a few comments
              of my own.

              "Non"eckchains wrote:
              Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
              of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
              articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
              like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
              place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
              weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
              course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
              discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
              thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
              just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
              thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
              thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
              blah....!?

              Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
              getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
              wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
              already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
              very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
              seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
              there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
              that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
              is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
              beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
              it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
              of kal, right?

              ME: It's true that they always
              reflect the blame for your
              questions back at you in order
              to control and manipulate you.
              Klemp never takes responsibility
              for anything that happens within
              Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
              Yet, EKies will pray to him via
              asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
              ego) for parking spaces and
              for answers to their questions,
              or for job decisions and for
              health & prosperity. He's supposed
              to be taking care of his H.I.s
              but it doesn't happen anymore
              for Ekists than it does for
              Christians... actually "miracles"
              happen less for ECKists than
              for Christians. Google and
              compare the testimonials!


              I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
              on cults of all kinds and recovery.

              http://www.refocus.org/

              noneckster ; )

              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

              It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
              eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
              right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
              abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.


              ME: It's that way with all religions.
              The more the merrier... not! Yes,
              the more people believing the same
              lies and conforming to the same rules
              and laws is proof, for many, that the
              religion is valid and true. How can
              so many intelligent people be fooled
              an be wrong?



              I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
              sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
              they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
              to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
              institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
              driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
              that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
              suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
              about his beliefs.

              How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
              necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
              eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
              But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
              ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
              eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
              is.

              ME: One becomes focused upon
              how to explain questions away
              without considering the premise
              that those uniform explanations
              are inaccurate and are designed
              to be intentionally misleading.



              I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
              in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
              believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
              suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
              What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
              what the teachings did for you in your own life.


              ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
              ECK booth at a secular event that
              was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
              Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
              event you might have a different
              experience. I have. Think about
              a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
              750,000 in attendance. Or, how
              about an EK Booth at a street fair
              across from a major university.
              Anyway, we did come under verbal
              attack from time-to-time. Of course
              we really didn't care if they joined
              or not... that was their karma...
              we did our part by being there
              if nothing else. That reminds me.
              Remember how we were told that
              when we stir up deep seated truth
              that if will affect people negatively
              because they can't handle it. The
              same goes for what we're saying,
              here, about Eckankar. The Truth
              is being stirred up and ECkists
              can't handle it and that's what
              upsets them. Gotta Go... later!




              Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
              told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
              written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
              work.

              I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
              they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
              like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
              they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
              from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
              of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
              they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
              The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
              of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
              from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
              that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
              fed to me anyway.

              Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
              teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
              Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
              slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
              members.

              Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
              numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
              would be interesting to know however.

              I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
              supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
              worlds,
              so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
              he do
              something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?


              eckchains wrote:

              At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
              really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
              denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
              pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
              ever more deluded.
              >
              My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
              and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
              denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
              others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
              and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
              does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
              >
              Truth to them is just TWISTED.
              >
              noneckster ; )
            • Russ Rodnick
              I agree with your perception regarding the imaginary greatness. To reveal a personal truth, for me these ideals covered my insecurities allowing me to get out
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 7, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                I agree with your perception regarding the imaginary greatness. To reveal a personal truth, for me these ideals covered my insecurities allowing me to get out of myself which is a good thing, I think. What good came of it, for me it was the first time that I felt an identification within myself with the idea of being a vehicle for spirit. Post-eck, I am still becoming a vehicle for spirit, but it doesn't have anything to do with HKor other imaginary masters. However, I do feel a Presence at times, that feels higher but is devoid of personality. I think it is a part of myself rather than another person or entity. Freedom.
                 
                so, it's not all black and white for me, you know what I mean?
                 
                Good wishes to you!

                Russ

                From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 11:24 PM
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
                 
                I think we believed the lies because we simply wanted too.  We thought eckankar filled a void in our lives so we chose to believe the rediculous stuff that helped explain away the inconsistances.  Then, if you got any sense at all, one day, you just have to face the fact that, it is all quite rediculous and the man in charge isn't anything special and even all the other eckist start to appear to be really lacking in social and spiritual graces.  I give thanks everyday that I am not still among the blind.  I give thanks that there are others like you that came out of eckankar's web of spiritual death.  It would be nice if we could wave a magic wand and have all the still deceived become wide open to the truth about eckankar.  We all know it is not going to happen that way.  I believe it is a person's ego that keeps them spell bound in eckankar.  The belief that they are special and that they are set apart from the rest of the world in their specialness is too much to relinquish.  And so they continue to believe that klemp is God made flesh and eckankar is the path to spiritual freedom while they scurry around to do his bidding and give him as much money as they can afford to give.  So friends let us consider ourselves the lucky ones.  Where once we were among the deceived, we did survive the ordeal and maybe we are all just a bit wiser about con artists and how greed can cause some to inslave others for profit.  Bless each and all who did make the journey through the smoke and mirrors of eckankar and can today say it has no more hold on them.  And may all of us think of those still with in it's grasp with compassion.  Chosing the truth isn't always easy over a life of imaginary greatness. 

                --- On Tue, 7/31/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2012, 9:00 PM

                 
                Hello All, I was thinking about some of the lies we were told while in Eckankar and of how and why we accepted them so readily. For instance, there's the long standing rule that EKists don't proselytize, in part, due to the Law of Non-Interference. But, all this actually meant is that ECKists don't go door-to-door like Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. Proselytizing means trying to: "proselytize |&#712;präs&#601;l&#601;&#716;t&#299;z| verb [ with obj. ] convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another: the program did have a tremendous evangelical effect, proselytizing many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing for converts | (as noun proselytizing) : no amount of proselytizing was going to change their minds. • advocate or promote (a belief or course of action): Davis wanted to share his concept and proselytize his ideas." Leaving books and brochures in laundromats or bookmarks in books at libraries and in bookstores is not following the Law of Non-Interference. Neither is having EK Internet Videos or booths at Psychic Fairs. BTW- Let me speak about another thought. Does Klemp have a sense of divine intercession? Does he sit in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man cave and HU/pray for the spiritual evolution of mankind or for world peace? Many religious leaders and Maharishis who don't go out and preach at least pray for intercession. What does Klemp do except write trashy books and promote his $$$ religious wares via his volunteer grass roots sales staff and via the pros at the ESC. Prometheus
              • Russ Rodnick
                I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path.
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 7, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path. Eckankar fit the bill. At the time I was really into magical thinking, dreams as a doorway to invisible worlds and the mythology of the superman. I couldn't believe in the normal, ordinary as being all there was. Now, however I feel that everyone who is 'doing' eckankar are believers. but not in themselves, as they really are, but in a 'thing' outside themselves. Courage isn't something born in the heart of those who follow blindly evading the 500 pound elephant in the room, in favor of courting the Darshan and being lifted into the higher planes. I think the experiences people are looking for are just inside the door. We don't have to be led to ourselves do we? just be it, create the flow and it will be your reality.
                   
                  Russ

                  From: Non <eckchains@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 11:14 PM
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                   
                  Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

                  It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

                  A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

                  non eckster ; )

                  --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                  Hello All,
                  Thanks again for the insights.
                  I think I'll make a few comments
                  of my own.

                  "Non"eckchains wrote:
                  Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
                  of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
                  articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
                  like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
                  place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
                  weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
                  course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
                  discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
                  thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
                  just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
                  thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
                  thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
                  blah....!?

                  Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
                  getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
                  wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
                  already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
                  very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
                  seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
                  there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
                  that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
                  is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
                  beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
                  it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
                  of kal, right?

                  ME: It's true that they always
                  reflect the blame for your
                  questions back at you in order
                  to control and manipulate you.
                  Klemp never takes responsibility
                  for anything that happens within
                  Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
                  Yet, EKies will pray to him via
                  asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
                  ego) for parking spaces and
                  for answers to their questions,
                  or for job decisions and for
                  health & prosperity. He's supposed
                  to be taking care of his H.I.s
                  but it doesn't happen anymore
                  for Ekists than it does for
                  Christians... actually "miracles"
                  happen less for ECKists than
                  for Christians. Google and
                  compare the testimonials!

                  I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
                  on cults of all kinds and recovery.

                  http://www.refocus.org/

                  noneckster ; )

                  Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                  It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
                  eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
                  right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
                  abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.

                  ME: It's that way with all religions.
                  The more the merrier... not! Yes,
                  the more people believing the same
                  lies and conforming to the same rules
                  and laws is proof, for many, that the
                  religion is valid and true. How can
                  so many intelligent people be fooled
                  an be wrong?

                  I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
                  sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
                  they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
                  to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
                  institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
                  driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
                  that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
                  suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
                  about his beliefs.

                  How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
                  necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
                  eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
                  But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
                  ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
                  eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
                  is.

                  ME: One becomes focused upon
                  how to explain questions away
                  without considering the premise
                  that those uniform explanations
                  are inaccurate and are designed
                  to be intentionally misleading.

                  I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
                  in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
                  believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
                  suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
                  What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
                  what the teachings did for you in your own life.

                  ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
                  ECK booth at a secular event that
                  was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
                  Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
                  event you might have a different
                  experience. I have. Think about
                  a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
                  750,000 in attendance. Or, how
                  about an EK Booth at a street fair
                  across from a major university.
                  Anyway, we did come under verbal
                  attack from time-to-time. Of course
                  we really didn't care if they joined
                  or not... that was their karma...
                  we did our part by being there
                  if nothing else. That reminds me.
                  Remember how we were told that
                  when we stir up deep seated truth
                  that if will affect people negatively
                  because they can't handle it. The
                  same goes for what we're saying,
                  here, about Eckankar. The Truth
                  is being stirred up and ECkists
                  can't handle it and that's what
                  upsets them. Gotta Go... later!

                  Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
                  told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
                  written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
                  work.

                  I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
                  they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
                  like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
                  they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
                  from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
                  of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
                  they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
                  The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
                  of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
                  from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
                  that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
                  fed to me anyway.

                  Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
                  teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
                  Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
                  slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
                  members.

                  Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
                  numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
                  would be interesting to know however.

                  I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
                  supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
                  worlds,
                  so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
                  he do
                  something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?

                  eckchains wrote:

                  At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
                  really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
                  denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
                  pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
                  ever more deluded.
                  >
                  My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
                  and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
                  denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
                  others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
                  and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
                  does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
                  >
                  Truth to them is just TWISTED.
                  >
                  noneckster ; )



                • Janice Pfeiffer
                  I also thank you non eckester. Your contributions are invaluable to my learning and growth.  I feel most fortunate indeed to have the insights of all of
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 8, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I also thank you non eckester. Your contributions are invaluable to my learning and growth.  I feel most fortunate indeed to have the insights of all of you. 
                     
                    To Russ:  I found your mentioning living in a communial situation very interesting.  I would so like to hear more if you can share it.
                     
                    In closing, I would like you all to know that I feel blessed by being a part of this site and having the opportunity to see more of the hearts and minds of all of you as we discuss our experiences in eckankar. 
                     
                    Each and every one of you shows true beauty and wisdom, much more evident than that of devout eckist.  So my brothers and sisters, if we failed to fit into the eckankar scheme it must mean we had grown past it's boundaries. 
                     
                    Bless you all as you have blessed me with your knowledge.
                     


                    --- On Wed, 8/8/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                    From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
                    To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Wednesday, August 8, 2012, 1:29 AM

                     
                    I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path. Eckankar fit the bill. At the time I was really into magical thinking, dreams as a doorway to invisible worlds and the mythology of the superman. I couldn't believe in the normal, ordinary as being all there was. Now, however I feel that everyone who is 'doing' eckankar are believers. but not in themselves, as they really are, but in a 'thing' outside themselves. Courage isn't something born in the heart of those who follow blindly evading the 500 pound elephant in the room, in favor of courting the Darshan and being lifted into the higher planes. I think the experiences people are looking for are just inside the door. We don't have to be led to ourselves do we? just be it, create the flow and it will be your reality.
                     
                    Russ

                    From: Non <eckchains@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 11:14 PM
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                     
                    Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

                    It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

                    A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

                    non eckster ; )

                    --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                    Hello All,
                    Thanks again for the insights.
                    I think I'll make a few comments
                    of my own.

                    "Non"eckchains wrote:
                    Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
                    of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
                    articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
                    like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
                    place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
                    weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
                    course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
                    discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
                    thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
                    just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
                    thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
                    thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
                    blah....!?

                    Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
                    getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
                    wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
                    already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
                    very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
                    seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
                    there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
                    that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
                    is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
                    beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
                    it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
                    of kal, right?

                    ME: It's true that they always
                    reflect the blame for your
                    questions back at you in order
                    to control and manipulate you.
                    Klemp never takes responsibility
                    for anything that happens within
                    Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
                    Yet, EKies will pray to him via
                    asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
                    ego) for parking spaces and
                    for answers to their questions,
                    or for job decisions and for
                    health & prosperity. He's supposed
                    to be taking care of his H.I.s
                    but it doesn't happen anymore
                    for Ekists than it does for
                    Christians... actually "miracles"
                    happen less for ECKists than
                    for Christians. Google and
                    compare the testimonials!

                    I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
                    on cults of all kinds and recovery.

                    http://www.refocus.org/

                    noneckster ; )

                    Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                    It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
                    eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
                    right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
                    abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.

                    ME: It's that way with all religions.
                    The more the merrier... not! Yes,
                    the more people believing the same
                    lies and conforming to the same rules
                    and laws is proof, for many, that the
                    religion is valid and true. How can
                    so many intelligent people be fooled
                    an be wrong?

                    I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
                    sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
                    they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
                    to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
                    institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
                    driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
                    that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
                    suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
                    about his beliefs.

                    How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
                    necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
                    eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
                    But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
                    ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
                    eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
                    is.

                    ME: One becomes focused upon
                    how to explain questions away
                    without considering the premise
                    that those uniform explanations
                    are inaccurate and are designed
                    to be intentionally misleading.

                    I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
                    in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
                    believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
                    suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
                    What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
                    what the teachings did for you in your own life.

                    ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
                    ECK booth at a secular event that
                    was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
                    Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
                    event you might have a different
                    experience. I have. Think about
                    a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
                    750,000 in attendance. Or, how
                    about an EK Booth at a street fair
                    across from a major university.
                    Anyway, we did come under verbal
                    attack from time-to-time. Of course
                    we really didn't care if they joined
                    or not... that was their karma...
                    we did our part by being there
                    if nothing else. That reminds me.
                    Remember how we were told that
                    when we stir up deep seated truth
                    that if will affect people negatively
                    because they can't handle it. The
                    same goes for what we're saying,
                    here, about Eckankar. The Truth
                    is being stirred up and ECkists
                    can't handle it and that's what
                    upsets them. Gotta Go... later!

                    Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
                    told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
                    written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
                    work.

                    I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
                    they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
                    like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
                    they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
                    from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
                    of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
                    they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
                    The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
                    of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
                    from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
                    that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
                    fed to me anyway.

                    Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
                    teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
                    Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
                    slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
                    members.

                    Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
                    numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
                    would be interesting to know however.

                    I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
                    supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
                    worlds,
                    so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
                    he do
                    something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?

                    eckchains wrote:

                    At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
                    really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
                    denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
                    pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
                    ever more deluded.
                    >
                    My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
                    and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
                    denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
                    others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
                    and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
                    does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
                    >
                    Truth to them is just TWISTED.
                    >
                    noneckster ; )



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