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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

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  • Janice Pfeiffer
    I think we believed the lies because we simply wanted too.  We thought eckankar filled a void in our lives so we chose to believe the rediculous stuff that
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 1 9:24 PM
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      I think we believed the lies because we simply wanted too.  We thought eckankar filled a void in our lives so we chose to believe the rediculous stuff that helped explain away the inconsistances.  Then, if you got any sense at all, one day, you just have to face the fact that, it is all quite rediculous and the man in charge isn't anything special and even all the other eckist start to appear to be really lacking in social and spiritual graces.  I give thanks everyday that I am not still among the blind.  I give thanks that there are others like you that came out of eckankar's web of spiritual death.  It would be nice if we could wave a magic wand and have all the still deceived become wide open to the truth about eckankar.  We all know it is not going to happen that way.  I believe it is a person's ego that keeps them spell bound in eckankar.  The belief that they are special and that they are set apart from the rest of the world in their specialness is too much to relinquish.  And so they continue to believe that klemp is God made flesh and eckankar is the path to spiritual freedom while they scurry around to do his bidding and give him as much money as they can afford to give.  So friends let us consider ourselves the lucky ones.  Where once we were among the deceived, we did survive the ordeal and maybe we are all just a bit wiser about con artists and how greed can cause some to inslave others for profit.  Bless each and all who did make the journey through the smoke and mirrors of eckankar and can today say it has no more hold on them.  And may all of us think of those still with in it's grasp with compassion.  Chosing the truth isn't always easy over a life of imaginary greatness. 

      --- On Tue, 7/31/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2012, 9:00 PM

       
      Hello All,
      I was thinking about some
      of the lies we were told
      while in Eckankar and of
      how and why we accepted
      them so readily.

      For instance, there's the
      long standing rule that
      EKists don't proselytize,
      in part, due to the Law
      of Non-Interference.

      But, all this actually meant
      is that ECKists don't go
      door-to-door like Mormons
      and Jehovah Witnesses.
      Proselytizing means trying
      to:

      "proselytize |&#712;präs&#601;l&#601;&#716;t&#299;z|
      verb [ with obj. ]
      convert or attempt to convert
      (someone) from one religion,
      belief, or opinion to another:

      the program did have a tremendous
      evangelical effect, proselytizing
      many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing

      for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
      no amount of proselytizing was
      going to change their minds.

      • advocate or promote (a belief
      or course of action): Davis wanted
      to share his concept and proselytize
      his ideas."

      Leaving books and brochures
      in laundromats or bookmarks
      in books at libraries and in
      bookstores is not following
      the Law of Non-Interference.
      Neither is having EK Internet
      Videos or booths at Psychic
      Fairs.

      BTW- Let me speak about another
      thought. Does Klemp have a sense
      of divine intercession? Does he sit
      in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
      cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
      evolution of mankind or for world
      peace? Many religious leaders and
      Maharishis who don't go out and
      preach at least pray for intercession.
      What does Klemp do except write
      trashy books and promote his $$$
      religious wares via his volunteer
      grass roots sales staff and via the
      pros at the ESC.

      Prometheus

    • Non
      At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 1 9:31 PM
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        At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming ever more deluded.

        My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes, denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it does it is the fault of their victims somehow)

        Truth to them is just TWISTED.

        noneckster ; )

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        Hello All,
        I was thinking about some
        of the lies we were told
        while in Eckankar and of
        how and why we accepted
        them so readily.

        For instance, there's the
        long standing rule that
        EKists don't proselytize,
        in part, due to the Law
        of Non-Interference.

        But, all this actually meant
        is that ECKists don't go
        door-to-door like Mormons
        and Jehovah Witnesses.
        Proselytizing means trying
        to:

        "proselytize |ˈpräsələˌtīz|
        verb [ with obj. ]
        convert or attempt to convert
        (someone) from one religion,
        belief, or opinion to another:

        the program did have a tremendous
        evangelical effect, proselytizing
        many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing

        for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
        no amount of proselytizing was
        going to change their minds.

        • advocate or promote (a belief
        or course of action): Davis wanted
        to share his concept and proselytize
        his ideas."

        Leaving books and brochures
        in laundromats or bookmarks
        in books at libraries and in
        bookstores is not following
        the Law of Non-Interference.
        Neither is having EK Internet
        Videos or booths at Psychic
        Fairs.

        BTW- Let me speak about another
        thought. Does Klemp have a sense
        of divine intercession? Does he sit
        in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
        cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
        evolution of mankind or for world
        peace? Many religious leaders and
        Maharishis who don't go out and
        preach at least pray for intercession.
        What does Klemp do except write
        trashy books and promote his $$$
        religious wares via his volunteer
        grass roots sales staff and via the
        pros at the ESC.



        Prometheus
      • Janice Pfeiffer
        It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn t want eckankar.  I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 2 1:32 AM
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          It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want eckankar.  I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more right they can feel about believing.  It always seemed to me that they only abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors. 
           
           I don't blame you for resenting it.  It is uncalled for from any religious sect.  I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view.  Tell your brother to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental institution.  Give him material that debunks his eckankar.  Maybe eckankar is driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it.  If he is that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state.  Maybe you should suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control about his beliefs. 
           
          How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was necessary to get eckankar established.  These are things I was told as a new eckist by older eckist.  They know you are going to hear about the lies.   But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies.  It is drummed into you that eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it is. 
           
          I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are in.  There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non believers.  I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.  What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about what the teachings did for you in your own life. 
           
          Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees.  Newbies aren't told how the whole thing works.  They count on you getting hooked on the written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really work. 
           
          I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how they can keep holding on to something based on lies.  I think it is because like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that they think it is worth while.  Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered from various sources.  There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot of contradictions.  Some don't care that it was stolen material.  It is like they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.  The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see that eckankar is the original and true path.  Well, that is how it was spoon fed to me anyway. 
           
          Now, they even advertise on TV.  What a crock of crap.  The great secret teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial. Membership must be way down.  Klemp must be getting desperate.  Need more slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying members. 
           
          Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their numbers?  I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist.  That would be interesting to know however.
           
          I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes.  I remember that supposedly, the
          God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower worlds, so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad?  Why doesn't he do something about it?  Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it? 

          --- On Thu, 8/2/12, Non <eckchains@...> wrote:

          From: Non <eckchains@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, August 2, 2012, 4:31 AM

           
          At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming ever more deluded.

          My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes, denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it does it is the fault of their victims somehow)

          Truth to them is just TWISTED.

          noneckster ; )

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          Hello All,
          I was thinking about some
          of the lies we were told
          while in Eckankar and of
          how and why we accepted
          them so readily.

          For instance, there's the
          long standing rule that
          EKists don't proselytize,
          in part, due to the Law
          of Non-Interference.

          But, all this actually meant
          is that ECKists don't go
          door-to-door like Mormons
          and Jehovah Witnesses.
          Proselytizing means trying
          to:

          "proselytize |&#712;präs&#601;l&#601;&#716;t&#299;z|
          verb [ with obj. ]
          convert or attempt to convert
          (someone) from one religion,
          belief, or opinion to another:

          the program did have a tremendous
          evangelical effect, proselytizing
          many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing

          for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
          no amount of proselytizing was
          going to change their minds.

          • advocate or promote (a belief
          or course of action): Davis wanted
          to share his concept and proselytize
          his ideas."

          Leaving books and brochures
          in laundromats or bookmarks
          in books at libraries and in
          bookstores is not following
          the Law of Non-Interference.
          Neither is having EK Internet
          Videos or booths at Psychic
          Fairs.

          BTW- Let me speak about another
          thought. Does Klemp have a sense
          of divine intercession? Does he sit
          in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
          cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
          evolution of mankind or for world
          peace? Many religious leaders and
          Maharishis who don't go out and
          preach at least pray for intercession.
          What does Klemp do except write
          trashy books and promote his $$$
          religious wares via his volunteer
          grass roots sales staff and via the
          pros at the ESC.

          Prometheus

        • Non
          Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 2 11:35 PM
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            Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar, thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah, blah....!?

            Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent of kal, right?

            I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings on cults of all kinds and recovery.

            http://www.refocus.org/

            noneckster ; )

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
            >
            > It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want eckankar.  I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more right they can feel about believing.  It always seemed to me that they only abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors. 
            >  
            >  I don't blame you for resenting it.  It is uncalled for from any religious sect.  I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view.  Tell your brother to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental institution.  Give him material that debunks his eckankar.  Maybe eckankar is driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it.  If he is that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state.  Maybe you should suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control about his beliefs. 
            >  
            > How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was necessary to get eckankar established.  These are things I was told as a new eckist by older eckist.  They know you are going to hear about the lies.   But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies.  It is drummed into you that eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it is. 
            >  
            > I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are in.  There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non believers.  I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.  What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about what the teachings did for you in your own life. 
            >  
            > Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees.  Newbies aren't told how the whole thing works.  They count on you getting hooked on the written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really work. 
            >  
            > I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how they can keep holding on to something based on lies.  I think it is because like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that they think it is worth while.  Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered from various sources.  There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot of contradictions.  Some don't care that it was stolen material.  It is like they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.  The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see that eckankar is the original and true path.  Well, that is how it was spoon fed to me anyway. 
            >  
            > Now, they even advertise on TV.  What a crock of crap.  The great secret teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial. Membership must be way down.  Klemp must be getting desperate.  Need more slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying members. 
            >  
            > Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their numbers?  I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist.  That would be interesting to know however.
            >  
            > I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes.  I remember that supposedly, the
            > God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower worlds, so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad?  Why doesn't he do something about it?  Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it? 
            >
            > --- On Thu, 8/2/12, Non <eckchains@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: Non <eckchains@...>
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Thursday, August 2, 2012, 4:31 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            > At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming ever more deluded.
            >
            > My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes, denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
            >
            > Truth to them is just TWISTED.
            >
            > noneckster ; )
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > >
            > Hello All,
            > I was thinking about some
            > of the lies we were told
            > while in Eckankar and of
            > how and why we accepted
            > them so readily.
            >
            > For instance, there's the
            > long standing rule that
            > EKists don't proselytize,
            > in part, due to the Law
            > of Non-Interference.
            >
            > But, all this actually meant
            > is that ECKists don't go
            > door-to-door like Mormons
            > and Jehovah Witnesses.
            > Proselytizing means trying
            > to:
            >
            > "proselytize |ˈpräsələˌtīz|
            > verb [ with obj. ]
            > convert or attempt to convert
            > (someone) from one religion,
            > belief, or opinion to another:
            >
            > the program did have a tremendous
            > evangelical effect, proselytizing
            > many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing
            >
            > for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
            > no amount of proselytizing was
            > going to change their minds.
            >
            > • advocate or promote (a belief
            > or course of action): Davis wanted
            > to share his concept and proselytize
            > his ideas."
            >
            > Leaving books and brochures
            > in laundromats or bookmarks
            > in books at libraries and in
            > bookstores is not following
            > the Law of Non-Interference.
            > Neither is having EK Internet
            > Videos or booths at Psychic
            > Fairs.
            >
            > BTW- Let me speak about another
            > thought. Does Klemp have a sense
            > of divine intercession? Does he sit
            > in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
            > cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
            > evolution of mankind or for world
            > peace? Many religious leaders and
            > Maharishis who don't go out and
            > preach at least pray for intercession.
            > What does Klemp do except write
            > trashy books and promote his $$$
            > religious wares via his volunteer
            > grass roots sales staff and via the
            > pros at the ESC.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
          • Janice Pfeiffer
            Thanks for the link.  I will check it out.  I hope you can feel some pride in knowing that you went into eckankar and you had the sense to get out.  Thanks
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 4 1:29 PM
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              Thanks for the link.  I will check it out.  I hope you can feel some pride in knowing that you went into eckankar and you had the sense to get out.  Thanks for your story. 

              --- On Fri, 8/3/12, Non <eckchains@...> wrote:

              From: Non <eckchains@...>
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, August 3, 2012, 6:35 AM

               
              Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar, thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah, blah....!?

              Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent of kal, right?

              I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings on cults of all kinds and recovery.

              http://www.refocus.org/

              noneckster ; )

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
              >
              > It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want eckankar.  I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more right they can feel about believing.  It always seemed to me that they only abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors. 
              >  
              >  I don't blame you for resenting it.  It is uncalled for from any religious sect.  I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view.  Tell your brother to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental institution.  Give him material that debunks his eckankar.  Maybe eckankar is driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it.  If he is that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state.  Maybe you should suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control about his beliefs. 
              >  
              > How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was necessary to get eckankar established.  These are things I was told as a new eckist by older eckist.  They know you are going to hear about the lies.   But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies.  It is drummed into you that eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it is. 
              >  
              > I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are in.  There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non believers.  I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.  What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about what the teachings did for you in your own life. 
              >  
              > Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees.  Newbies aren't told how the whole thing works.  They count on you getting hooked on the written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really work. 
              >  
              > I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how they can keep holding on to something based on lies.  I think it is because like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that they think it is worth while.  Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered from various sources.  There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot of contradictions.  Some don't care that it was stolen material.  It is like they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.  The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see that eckankar is the original and true path.  Well, that is how it was spoon fed to me anyway. 
              >  
              > Now, they even advertise on TV.  What a crock of crap.  The great secret teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial. Membership must be way down.  Klemp must be getting desperate.  Need more slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying members. 
              >  
              > Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their numbers?  I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist.  That would be interesting to know however.
              >  
              > I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes.  I remember that supposedly, the
              > God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower worlds, so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad?  Why doesn't he do something about it?  Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it? 
              >
              > --- On Thu, 8/2/12, Non <eckchains@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Non <eckchains@...>
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thursday, August 2, 2012, 4:31 AM
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming ever more deluded.
              >
              > My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes, denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
              >
              > Truth to them is just TWISTED.
              >
              > noneckster ; )
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > >
              > Hello All,
              > I was thinking about some
              > of the lies we were told
              > while in Eckankar and of
              > how and why we accepted
              > them so readily.
              >
              > For instance, there's the
              > long standing rule that
              > EKists don't proselytize,
              > in part, due to the Law
              > of Non-Interference.
              >
              > But, all this actually meant
              > is that ECKists don't go
              > door-to-door like Mormons
              > and Jehovah Witnesses.
              > Proselytizing means trying
              > to:
              >
              > "proselytize |&#712;präs&#601;l&#601;&#716;t&#299;z|
              > verb [ with obj. ]
              > convert or attempt to convert
              > (someone) from one religion,
              > belief, or opinion to another:
              >
              > the program did have a tremendous
              > evangelical effect, proselytizing
              > many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing
              >
              > for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
              > no amount of proselytizing was
              > going to change their minds.
              >
              > • advocate or promote (a belief
              > or course of action): Davis wanted
              > to share his concept and proselytize
              > his ideas."
              >
              > Leaving books and brochures
              > in laundromats or bookmarks
              > in books at libraries and in
              > bookstores is not following
              > the Law of Non-Interference.
              > Neither is having EK Internet
              > Videos or booths at Psychic
              > Fairs.
              >
              > BTW- Let me speak about another
              > thought. Does Klemp have a sense
              > of divine intercession? Does he sit
              > in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
              > cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
              > evolution of mankind or for world
              > peace? Many religious leaders and
              > Maharishis who don't go out and
              > preach at least pray for intercession.
              > What does Klemp do except write
              > trashy books and promote his $$$
              > religious wares via his volunteer
              > grass roots sales staff and via the
              > pros at the ESC.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >

            • prometheus_973
              Hello All, Thanks for the reply. Good insights! I d like to comment as well. Janice Pfeiffer (JP) wrote: I think we believed the lies because we simply wanted
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 5 11:10 AM
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                Hello All,
                Thanks for the reply.
                Good insights! I'd like
                to comment as well.

                Janice Pfeiffer (JP) wrote:
                I think we believed the lies because
                we simply wanted too. We thought
                eckankar filled a void in our lives
                so we chose to believe the rediculous
                stuff that helped explain away the
                inconsistances.

                ME: EK does appeal to those
                who are nonconformists and
                who are interested in metaphysics,
                and New Age topics and agendas.
                Yes, it did fill a void because our
                former religions we were raised
                in did not answer questions that
                we wanted to "know." These religions
                were based upon belief, faith, and
                scripture written, edited, and rewritten
                by many authors and scribes, who
                are unknown. And it took place
                2,000-3,000 years ago (except for
                the many rewrites). But, religious
                history is much more recent if you're
                a Mormon, Scientologist, or an ECKist!


                JP: Then, if you got any sense at
                all, one day, you just have to face
                the fact that, it is all quite rediculous
                and the man in charge isn't anything
                special and even all the other eckist
                start to appear to be really lacking
                in social and spiritual graces.

                ME: So true! I knew quite a few
                who were high up in their local
                Satsang Orgs who seemed, and
                were, very unstable.


                JP: I give thanks everyday that I
                am not still among the blind. I give
                thanks that there are others like
                you that came out of eckankar's
                web of spiritual death. It would
                be nice if we could wave a magic
                wand and have all the still deceived
                become wide open to the truth
                about eckankar. We all know it
                is not going to happen that way.

                ME: If I had a magic wand I'd
                change more than just Eckankar.
                Ford's book (Confessions of A
                God-Seeker) opened things up
                for me. I'm just glad I heard about
                it and then paid the money to buy
                it and then took my time to read
                and reflect upon what was being
                said. I, of course, had to verify
                the information given by Ford
                Johnson and purchased "The
                Path of the Masters." I'd met Ford,
                knew he was a 7th initiate and
                a RESA, as well as a Harvard educated
                attorney, and I had heard him
                speak so I respected his intellect.
                I must admit that his book was
                not a pleasant read because it
                was shattering my whole belief
                system and trust.

                There're two or three funny
                stories about Ford's book.

                When it was in manuscript
                form Ford emailed some of
                it to 7th Initiates. I had one
                tell me about it and offered
                to print it out for me. I declined
                the offer.

                Later, a high ranking up and
                coming local EKist and wannabe
                RESA, who was a trustee on the
                local Board, told me about Ford's
                book. Of all people! Yes, he's
                still a member of EK and still
                looking for that 7th and RESA
                position.

                Then, there was this really
                strangely odd EK couple that
                speed read Ford's book and,
                then, threw it in the trash.
                Klemp had printed some of
                their embellished stories and
                during one seminar mentioned
                them by name and pointed
                them out. They were quite proud
                and thought they were above
                even HK's RESA's and a law unto
                themselves and shared in the
                "Mahanta Consciousness."
                Anywho, they put it out there
                that if anyone wanted to discuss
                Ford's book that they would
                take any calls and turn any
                confused EKists around and
                back to the "True Religion."



                JP: I believe it is a person's ego
                that keeps them spell bound in
                eckankar. The belief that they are
                special and that they are set apart
                from the rest of the world in their
                specialness is too much to relinquish.
                And so they continue to believe that
                klemp is God made flesh and eckankar
                is the path to spiritual freedom while
                they scurry around to do his bidding
                and give him as much money as
                they can afford to give.

                ME: Those Initiations are an ego
                Trap. ECKists claim to practice
                Detachment, but coveting initiations
                prevents Detachment. It's a tease
                or would HK call it a Test? Regardless
                of how Klemp would deflect it
                or how EKists rationalize it away
                the EK Initiations bind them to
                desires and to the ego.

                No "true blue" ECKist can say that
                they don't desire another Initiation.

                This is why some longtime 7ths,
                and former RESAs, like Fran Blackwell
                (bless her heart) will share that
                "on the Inner she is an 8th." H.I.s
                have discovered the loophole in
                The Masters 4 Discourse
                telling about the Ninth Initiation...
                that there must be Three Stages
                to every Initiation since there
                are Three Stages with the Ninth
                and everything EK must follow
                the Principle of the Threes. Thus,
                Two Stages are on the Inner
                and the Third and Final Stage
                is the Outer Confirmation. Therefore,
                ON THE INNER, before the Final
                Outer Confirmation Stage, every
                ECKist could claim to be One
                Initiation Higher that their EK
                Membership Card indicates.
                It's more delusion, but it's what
                makes all religions work!



                JP: So friends let us consider ourselves
                the lucky ones. Where once we were
                among the deceived, we did survive
                the ordeal and maybe we are all just
                a bit wiser about con artists and how
                greed can cause some to inslave others
                for profit. Bless each and all who did
                make the journey through the smoke
                and mirrors of eckankar and can today
                say it has no more hold on them. And
                may all of us think of those still with
                in it's grasp with compassion. Chosing
                the truth isn't always easy over a life
                of imaginary greatness.

                ME: I was always seeking the TRUTH
                and Klemp's presence and redundant
                message certainly isn't anywhere close
                to what I was looking for. At first it had
                promise, but after the trap had sprung
                I was kept too busy with distractions
                and wasn't allowed to question which
                would indicate that I was not "ready"
                for that next initiation.

                Prometheus


                prometheus wrote:

                Hello All,
                I was thinking about some
                of the lies we were told
                while in Eckankar and of
                how and why we accepted
                them so readily.

                For instance, there's the
                long standing rule that
                EKists don't proselytize,
                in part, due to the Law
                of Non-Interference.

                But, all this actually meant
                is that ECKists don't go
                door-to-door like Mormons
                and Jehovah Witnesses.
                Proselytizing means trying
                to:

                "proselytize
                verb [ with obj. ]
                convert or attempt to convert
                (someone) from one religion,
                belief, or opinion to another:

                the program did have a tremendous
                evangelical effect, proselytizing
                many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing

                for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
                no amount of proselytizing was
                going to change their minds.

                advocate or promote (a belief
                or course of action): Davis wanted
                to share his concept and proselytize
                his ideas."
                ***
                Leaving books and brochures
                in laundromats or bookmarks
                in books at libraries and in
                bookstores is not following
                the Law of Non-Interference.
                Neither is having EK Internet
                Videos or booths at Psychic
                Fairs.

                BTW- Let me speak about another
                thought. Does Klemp have a sense
                of divine intercession? Does he sit
                in his Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
                cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
                evolution of mankind or for world
                peace? Many religious leaders and
                Maharishis who don't go out and
                preach at least pray for intercession.
                What does Klemp do except write
                trashy books and promote his $$$
                religious wares via his volunteer
                grass roots sales staff and via the
                pros at the ESC.

                Prometheus
              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, Thanks again for the insights. I think I ll make a few comments of my own. Non eckchains wrote: Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 5 5:05 PM
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                  Hello All,
                  Thanks again for the insights.
                  I think I'll make a few comments
                  of my own.

                  "Non"eckchains wrote:
                  Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
                  of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
                  articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
                  like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
                  place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
                  weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
                  course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
                  discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
                  thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
                  just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
                  thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
                  thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
                  blah....!?

                  Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
                  getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
                  wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
                  already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
                  very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
                  seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
                  there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
                  that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
                  is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
                  beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
                  it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
                  of kal, right?

                  ME: It's true that they always
                  reflect the blame for your
                  questions back at you in order
                  to control and manipulate you.
                  Klemp never takes responsibility
                  for anything that happens within
                  Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
                  Yet, EKies will pray to him via
                  asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
                  ego) for parking spaces and
                  for answers to their questions,
                  or for job decisions and for
                  health & prosperity. He's supposed
                  to be taking care of his H.I.s
                  but it doesn't happen anymore
                  for Ekists than it does for
                  Christians... actually "miracles"
                  happen less for ECKists than
                  for Christians. Google and
                  compare the testimonials!


                  I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
                  on cults of all kinds and recovery.

                  http://www.refocus.org/

                  noneckster ; )

                  Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                  It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
                  eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
                  right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
                  abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.


                  ME: It's that way with all religions.
                  The more the merrier... not! Yes,
                  the more people believing the same
                  lies and conforming to the same rules
                  and laws is proof, for many, that the
                  religion is valid and true. How can
                  so many intelligent people be fooled
                  an be wrong?



                  I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
                  sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
                  they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
                  to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
                  institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
                  driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
                  that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
                  suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
                  about his beliefs.

                  How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
                  necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
                  eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
                  But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
                  ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
                  eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
                  is.

                  ME: One becomes focused upon
                  how to explain questions away
                  without considering the premise
                  that those uniform explanations
                  are inaccurate and are designed
                  to be intentionally misleading.



                  I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
                  in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
                  believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
                  suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
                  What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
                  what the teachings did for you in your own life.


                  ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
                  ECK booth at a secular event that
                  was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
                  Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
                  event you might have a different
                  experience. I have. Think about
                  a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
                  750,000 in attendance. Or, how
                  about an EK Booth at a street fair
                  across from a major university.
                  Anyway, we did come under verbal
                  attack from time-to-time. Of course
                  we really didn't care if they joined
                  or not... that was their karma...
                  we did our part by being there
                  if nothing else. That reminds me.
                  Remember how we were told that
                  when we stir up deep seated truth
                  that if will affect people negatively
                  because they can't handle it. The
                  same goes for what we're saying,
                  here, about Eckankar. The Truth
                  is being stirred up and ECkists
                  can't handle it and that's what
                  upsets them. Gotta Go... later!




                  Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
                  told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
                  written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
                  work.

                  I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
                  they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
                  like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
                  they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
                  from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
                  of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
                  they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
                  The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
                  of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
                  from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
                  that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
                  fed to me anyway.

                  Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
                  teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
                  Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
                  slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
                  members.

                  Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
                  numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
                  would be interesting to know however.

                  I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
                  supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower worlds,
                  so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't he do
                  something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?


                  eckchains wrote:

                  At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
                  really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
                  denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
                  pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
                  ever more deluded.
                  >
                  My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
                  and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
                  denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
                  others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
                  and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
                  does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
                  >
                  Truth to them is just TWISTED.
                  >
                  noneckster ; )
                • Janice Pfeiffer
                  Thank you Prometheus,   You always say it so well.   It wasn t Ford s book that shook me awake.  It was being told by a high initiate how initiations really
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 5 5:44 PM
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                    Thank you Prometheus,
                     
                    You always say it so well.
                     
                    It wasn't Ford's book that shook me awake.  It was being told by a high initiate how initiations really come about and how high initiates report about lower people that usually causes an initiation or prevents one.  I saw so much back biting going on that I found it sincerely offensive that it was these people who would really decide whether or not I got an initiation.   At that time, initiations became worthless to me. 
                     
                    When I asked the questions about such things, the area resa went ballistic on me.  I guess I was supposed to feel bad about myself for asking.  Instead of being spiritually strong, eckist looked like a bunch of whiny cry babies and I felt that my own growth had taken a some what backwards turn since I joined eckankar.  There wasn't anything spiritual in what I was seeing and I decided I would rather decide for myself where I stood. 
                     
                    His behavior along with everything else I had learned was enough to clear my head.  I bought and read Ford's book a few months later.  Coming from some one who had been prominent in eckankar. it helped me deal with my angry feelings about the lies and betrayal. 
                     
                    Funny, high initiates can pass judgment on lower chelas but a lower person can't even ask questions about how things are done.  That to me says they want to hide the truth from you as long as possible.  Finally, I don't see any value of initiations based on gossip and another persons prejudiced observations.
                     
                    I got the pink slip after I had decided to quit.  I guess promoting an unworthy person was better than losing a dues paying member.  I threw the thing in the trash were it belonged.  I haven't spoken to an eckist since then nor do I care to. 
                     
                    I wish non of them any harm but I could never tolerate hearing that dribble again. 


                    --- On Sun, 8/5/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Sunday, August 5, 2012, 6:10 PM

                     
                    Hello All,
                    Thanks for the reply.
                    Good insights! I'd like
                    to comment as well.

                    Janice Pfeiffer (JP) wrote:
                    I think we believed the lies because
                    we simply wanted too. We thought
                    eckankar filled a void in our lives
                    so we chose to believe the rediculous
                    stuff that helped explain away the
                    inconsistances.

                    ME: EK does appeal to those
                    who are nonconformists and
                    who are interested in metaphysics,
                    and New Age topics and agendas.
                    Yes, it did fill a void because our
                    former religions we were raised
                    in did not answer questions that
                    we wanted to "know." These religions
                    were based upon belief, faith, and
                    scripture written, edited, and rewritten
                    by many authors and scribes, who
                    are unknown. And it took place
                    2,000-3,000 years ago (except for
                    the many rewrites). But, religious
                    history is much more recent if you're
                    a Mormon, Scientologist, or an ECKist!

                    JP: Then, if you got any sense at
                    all, one day, you just have to face
                    the fact that, it is all quite rediculous
                    and the man in charge isn't anything
                    special and even all the other eckist
                    start to appear to be really lacking
                    in social and spiritual graces.

                    ME: So true! I knew quite a few
                    who were high up in their local
                    Satsang Orgs who seemed, and
                    were, very unstable.


                    JP: I give thanks everyday that I
                    am not still among the blind. I give
                    thanks that there are others like
                    you that came out of eckankar's
                    web of spiritual death. It would
                    be nice if we could wave a magic
                    wand and have all the still deceived
                    become wide open to the truth
                    about eckankar. We all know it
                    is not going to happen that way.

                    ME: If I had a magic wand I'd
                    change more than just Eckankar.
                    Ford's book (Confessions of A
                    God-Seeker) opened things up
                    for me. I'm just glad I heard about
                    it and then paid the money to buy
                    it and then took my time to read
                    and reflect upon what was being
                    said. I, of course, had to verify
                    the information given by Ford
                    Johnson and purchased "The
                    Path of the Masters." I'd met Ford,
                    knew he was a 7th initiate and
                    a RESA, as well as a Harvard educated
                    attorney, and I had heard him
                    speak so I respected his intellect.
                    I must admit that his book was
                    not a pleasant read because it
                    was shattering my whole belief
                    system and trust.

                    There're two or three funny
                    stories about Ford's book.

                    When it was in manuscript
                    form Ford emailed some of
                    it to 7th Initiates. I had one
                    tell me about it and offered
                    to print it out for me. I declined
                    the offer.

                    Later, a high ranking up and
                    coming local EKist and wannabe
                    RESA, who was a trustee on the
                    local Board, told me about Ford's
                    book. Of all people! Yes, he's
                    still a member of EK and still
                    looking for that 7th and RESA
                    position.

                    Then, there was this really
                    strangely odd EK couple that
                    speed read Ford's book and,
                    then, threw it in the trash.
                    Klemp had printed some of
                    their embellished stories and
                    during one seminar mentioned
                    them by name and pointed
                    them out. They were quite proud
                    and thought they were above
                    even HK's RESA's and a law unto
                    themselves and shared in the
                    "Mahanta Consciousness."
                    Anywho, they put it out there
                    that if anyone wanted to discuss
                    Ford's book that they would
                    take any calls and turn any
                    confused EKists around and
                    back to the "True Religion."

                    JP: I believe it is a person's ego
                    that keeps them spell bound in
                    eckankar. The belief that they are
                    special and that they are set apart
                    from the rest of the world in their
                    specialness is too much to relinquish.
                    And so they continue to believe that
                    klemp is God made flesh and eckankar
                    is the path to spiritual freedom while
                    they scurry around to do his bidding
                    and give him as much money as
                    they can afford to give.

                    ME: Those Initiations are an ego
                    Trap. ECKists claim to practice
                    Detachment, but coveting initiations
                    prevents Detachment. It's a tease
                    or would HK call it a Test? Regardless
                    of how Klemp would deflect it
                    or how EKists rationalize it away
                    the EK Initiations bind them to
                    desires and to the ego.

                    No "true blue" ECKist can say that
                    they don't desire another Initiation.

                    This is why some longtime 7ths,
                    and former RESAs, like Fran Blackwell
                    (bless her heart) will share that
                    "on the Inner she is an 8th." H.I.s
                    have discovered the loophole in
                    The Masters 4 Discourse
                    telling about the Ninth Initiation...
                    that there must be Three Stages
                    to every Initiation since there
                    are Three Stages with the Ninth
                    and everything EK must follow
                    the Principle of the Threes. Thus,
                    Two Stages are on the Inner
                    and the Third and Final Stage
                    is the Outer Confirmation. Therefore,
                    ON THE INNER, before the Final
                    Outer Confirmation Stage, every
                    ECKist could claim to be One
                    Initiation Higher that their EK
                    Membership Card indicates.
                    It's more delusion, but it's what
                    makes all religions work!

                    JP: So friends let us consider ourselves
                    the lucky ones. Where once we were
                    among the deceived, we did survive
                    the ordeal and maybe we are all just
                    a bit wiser about con artists and how
                    greed can cause some to inslave others
                    for profit. Bless each and all who did
                    make the journey through the smoke
                    and mirrors of eckankar and can today
                    say it has no more hold on them. And
                    may all of us think of those still with
                    in it's grasp with compassion. Chosing
                    the truth isn't always easy over a life
                    of imaginary greatness.

                    ME: I was always seeking the TRUTH
                    and Klemp's presence and redundant
                    message certainly isn't anywhere close
                    to what I was looking for. At first it had
                    promise, but after the trap had sprung
                    I was kept too busy with distractions
                    and wasn't allowed to question which
                    would indicate that I was not "ready"
                    for that next initiation.

                    Prometheus

                    prometheus wrote:

                    Hello All,
                    I was thinking about some
                    of the lies we were told
                    while in Eckankar and of
                    how and why we accepted
                    them so readily.

                    For instance, there's the
                    long standing rule that
                    EKists don't proselytize,
                    in part, due to the Law
                    of Non-Interference.

                    But, all this actually meant
                    is that ECKists don't go
                    door-to-door like Mormons
                    and Jehovah Witnesses.
                    Proselytizing means trying
                    to:

                    "proselytize
                    verb [ with obj. ]
                    convert or attempt to convert
                    (someone) from one religion,
                    belief, or opinion to another:

                    the program did have a tremendous
                    evangelical effect, proselytizing
                    many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing

                    for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
                    no amount of proselytizing was
                    going to change their minds.

                    advocate or promote (a belief
                    or course of action): Davis wanted
                    to share his concept and proselytize
                    his ideas."
                    ***
                    Leaving books and brochures
                    in laundromats or bookmarks
                    in books at libraries and in
                    bookstores is not following
                    the Law of Non-Interference.
                    Neither is having EK Internet
                    Videos or booths at Psychic
                    Fairs.

                    BTW- Let me speak about another
                    thought. Does Klemp have a sense
                    of divine intercession? Does he sit
                    in his Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
                    cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
                    evolution of mankind or for world
                    peace? Many religious leaders and
                    Maharishis who don't go out and
                    preach at least pray for intercession.
                    What does Klemp do except write
                    trashy books and promote his $$$
                    religious wares via his volunteer
                    grass roots sales staff and via the
                    pros at the ESC.

                    Prometheus

                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Non eckchains, Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences. I ll include some comments as well. Non eckchains wrote: Actually, and
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 6 8:48 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Non eckchains,
                      Thanks for taking the time
                      to share your experiences.
                      I'll include some comments
                      as well.

                      "Non" eckchains wrote:
                      Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
                      of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
                      articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
                      like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
                      place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
                      weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
                      course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
                      discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
                      thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
                      just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
                      thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
                      thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
                      blah....!?


                      ME: I think that many ECKists
                      were very gung-ho when they
                      started out. We, and those we
                      associated with, were fanatics.
                      We'd find the other fanatics at
                      the seminars because we all
                      volunteered in order to get
                      close to and rub elbows with
                      the higher ups and would be
                      assigned backstage or in
                      back hallways where the LEM
                      would sneak in with his entourage.
                      Sometimes a half dozen of us
                      would stay in the same room.

                      Also, In the old days it was okay
                      to receive and study two discourses
                      at the same time and my mentor,
                      a 7th initiate, recommended
                      that I do that. One discourse
                      was for private study, one was
                      for Satsang class.

                      BTW-I wrote to celebrities recommending
                      Eckankar too, but Nixon wasn't
                      included. Quite frankly, I can't
                      remember who they were, but
                      that's okay because it would
                      just embarrass me to remember.
                      It was fun at first but became
                      bullshit when I saw ECkists who
                      were not as spiritually advanced
                      as others getting promoted. And,
                      it happened all the time because
                      Gross and Klemp had no clue.
                      They depend upon others to tell
                      them who should be promoted.


                      Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
                      getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
                      wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
                      already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
                      very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
                      seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
                      there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
                      that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
                      is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
                      beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
                      it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
                      of kal, right?


                      ME: Yes, that's about it. And, yes, one isn't
                      permitted to keep asking questions, unless,
                      you're new. After you get the 2nd initiation
                      that's it for questions... no more! You're
                      supposed to get your answers on the inner
                      or have faith that you're being led by the
                      inner master even if you can't dream of him.
                      Generally, even non-eckists can see a blue
                      light when they meditate. It's supposed to
                      be the Blue Light of the Mental Plane versus
                      the Mahanta. Maybe that's why it's interchangeable
                      since more people tend to see a blue light.
                      But, prior to EK I would see yellow and white
                      lights too.



                      I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
                      on cults of all kinds and recovery.

                      http://www.refocus.org/


                      At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
                      really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
                      denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
                      pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
                      ever more deluded.


                      ME: The thing is, most of us delude
                      ourselves to varying degrees about
                      all sorts of things whether known,
                      or repressed and forgotten. It can
                      be fun to dream and pretend and
                      to deny reality, but it does catch
                      up to people, usually, when it's
                      almost too late. Being young at
                      heart doesn't mean we shouldn't
                      grow up and see beyond the make-
                      believe or the lies. ECKists are generally
                      very passive and this is what makes
                      them lazy thinkers. They get too
                      comfortable. But, Klemp keeps them
                      busy so they don't have time to think
                      about life without Eckankar. The
                      irony is the Easy Way Discourse because
                      Eckankar, itself, is the Easy Way.


                      My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
                      and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
                      denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
                      others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
                      and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
                      does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
                      Truth to them is just TWISTED.


                      ME: I always thought it was odd
                      to claim that Jesus was a 2nd initiate
                      and that Harold was a childhood
                      friend of Jesus. It's especially odd
                      when the liars Twitchell, Gross,
                      and Klemp couldn't/can't hold a
                      candle to what Jesus did and taught.
                      EKists act like they are far above
                      others in awareness/spiritual
                      consciousness etc. with their fake
                      initiations, but look at how H.I.s
                      treat fellow EKists let alone what
                      they think of the public. It's really
                      very hypocritical of ECKists when
                      they can't even follow the teachings
                      of love, compassion, empathy
                      (Klemp's nemesis), tolerance,
                      and forgiveness as "2nd initiate"
                      Jesus lived and taught. [end]
                      -prometheus



                      noneckster ; )
                    • Non
                      Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 6 9:14 PM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

                        It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

                        A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

                        non eckster ; )

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                        Hello All,
                        Thanks again for the insights.
                        I think I'll make a few comments
                        of my own.

                        "Non"eckchains wrote:
                        Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
                        of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
                        articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
                        like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
                        place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
                        weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
                        course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
                        discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
                        thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
                        just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
                        thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
                        thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
                        blah....!?

                        Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
                        getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
                        wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
                        already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
                        very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
                        seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
                        there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
                        that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
                        is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
                        beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
                        it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
                        of kal, right?

                        ME: It's true that they always
                        reflect the blame for your
                        questions back at you in order
                        to control and manipulate you.
                        Klemp never takes responsibility
                        for anything that happens within
                        Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
                        Yet, EKies will pray to him via
                        asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
                        ego) for parking spaces and
                        for answers to their questions,
                        or for job decisions and for
                        health & prosperity. He's supposed
                        to be taking care of his H.I.s
                        but it doesn't happen anymore
                        for Ekists than it does for
                        Christians... actually "miracles"
                        happen less for ECKists than
                        for Christians. Google and
                        compare the testimonials!


                        I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
                        on cults of all kinds and recovery.

                        http://www.refocus.org/

                        noneckster ; )

                        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                        It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
                        eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
                        right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
                        abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.


                        ME: It's that way with all religions.
                        The more the merrier... not! Yes,
                        the more people believing the same
                        lies and conforming to the same rules
                        and laws is proof, for many, that the
                        religion is valid and true. How can
                        so many intelligent people be fooled
                        an be wrong?



                        I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
                        sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
                        they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
                        to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
                        institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
                        driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
                        that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
                        suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
                        about his beliefs.

                        How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
                        necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
                        eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
                        But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
                        ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
                        eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
                        is.

                        ME: One becomes focused upon
                        how to explain questions away
                        without considering the premise
                        that those uniform explanations
                        are inaccurate and are designed
                        to be intentionally misleading.



                        I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
                        in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
                        believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
                        suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
                        What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
                        what the teachings did for you in your own life.


                        ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
                        ECK booth at a secular event that
                        was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
                        Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
                        event you might have a different
                        experience. I have. Think about
                        a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
                        750,000 in attendance. Or, how
                        about an EK Booth at a street fair
                        across from a major university.
                        Anyway, we did come under verbal
                        attack from time-to-time. Of course
                        we really didn't care if they joined
                        or not... that was their karma...
                        we did our part by being there
                        if nothing else. That reminds me.
                        Remember how we were told that
                        when we stir up deep seated truth
                        that if will affect people negatively
                        because they can't handle it. The
                        same goes for what we're saying,
                        here, about Eckankar. The Truth
                        is being stirred up and ECkists
                        can't handle it and that's what
                        upsets them. Gotta Go... later!




                        Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
                        told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
                        written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
                        work.

                        I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
                        they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
                        like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
                        they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
                        from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
                        of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
                        they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
                        The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
                        of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
                        from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
                        that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
                        fed to me anyway.

                        Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
                        teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
                        Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
                        slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
                        members.

                        Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
                        numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
                        would be interesting to know however.

                        I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
                        supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
                        worlds,
                        so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
                        he do
                        something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?


                        eckchains wrote:

                        At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
                        really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
                        denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
                        pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
                        ever more deluded.
                        >
                        My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
                        and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
                        denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
                        others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
                        and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
                        does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
                        >
                        Truth to them is just TWISTED.
                        >
                        noneckster ; )
                      • Russ Rodnick
                        I agree with your perception regarding the imaginary greatness. To reveal a personal truth, for me these ideals covered my insecurities allowing me to get out
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 7 6:08 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I agree with your perception regarding the imaginary greatness. To reveal a personal truth, for me these ideals covered my insecurities allowing me to get out of myself which is a good thing, I think. What good came of it, for me it was the first time that I felt an identification within myself with the idea of being a vehicle for spirit. Post-eck, I am still becoming a vehicle for spirit, but it doesn't have anything to do with HKor other imaginary masters. However, I do feel a Presence at times, that feels higher but is devoid of personality. I think it is a part of myself rather than another person or entity. Freedom.
                           
                          so, it's not all black and white for me, you know what I mean?
                           
                          Good wishes to you!

                          Russ

                          From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 11:24 PM
                          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
                           
                          I think we believed the lies because we simply wanted too.  We thought eckankar filled a void in our lives so we chose to believe the rediculous stuff that helped explain away the inconsistances.  Then, if you got any sense at all, one day, you just have to face the fact that, it is all quite rediculous and the man in charge isn't anything special and even all the other eckist start to appear to be really lacking in social and spiritual graces.  I give thanks everyday that I am not still among the blind.  I give thanks that there are others like you that came out of eckankar's web of spiritual death.  It would be nice if we could wave a magic wand and have all the still deceived become wide open to the truth about eckankar.  We all know it is not going to happen that way.  I believe it is a person's ego that keeps them spell bound in eckankar.  The belief that they are special and that they are set apart from the rest of the world in their specialness is too much to relinquish.  And so they continue to believe that klemp is God made flesh and eckankar is the path to spiritual freedom while they scurry around to do his bidding and give him as much money as they can afford to give.  So friends let us consider ourselves the lucky ones.  Where once we were among the deceived, we did survive the ordeal and maybe we are all just a bit wiser about con artists and how greed can cause some to inslave others for profit.  Bless each and all who did make the journey through the smoke and mirrors of eckankar and can today say it has no more hold on them.  And may all of us think of those still with in it's grasp with compassion.  Chosing the truth isn't always easy over a life of imaginary greatness. 

                          --- On Tue, 7/31/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2012, 9:00 PM

                           
                          Hello All, I was thinking about some of the lies we were told while in Eckankar and of how and why we accepted them so readily. For instance, there's the long standing rule that EKists don't proselytize, in part, due to the Law of Non-Interference. But, all this actually meant is that ECKists don't go door-to-door like Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. Proselytizing means trying to: "proselytize |&#712;präs&#601;l&#601;&#716;t&#299;z| verb [ with obj. ] convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another: the program did have a tremendous evangelical effect, proselytizing many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing for converts | (as noun proselytizing) : no amount of proselytizing was going to change their minds. • advocate or promote (a belief or course of action): Davis wanted to share his concept and proselytize his ideas." Leaving books and brochures in laundromats or bookmarks in books at libraries and in bookstores is not following the Law of Non-Interference. Neither is having EK Internet Videos or booths at Psychic Fairs. BTW- Let me speak about another thought. Does Klemp have a sense of divine intercession? Does he sit in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man cave and HU/pray for the spiritual evolution of mankind or for world peace? Many religious leaders and Maharishis who don't go out and preach at least pray for intercession. What does Klemp do except write trashy books and promote his $$$ religious wares via his volunteer grass roots sales staff and via the pros at the ESC. Prometheus
                        • Russ Rodnick
                          I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path.
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 7 6:29 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path. Eckankar fit the bill. At the time I was really into magical thinking, dreams as a doorway to invisible worlds and the mythology of the superman. I couldn't believe in the normal, ordinary as being all there was. Now, however I feel that everyone who is 'doing' eckankar are believers. but not in themselves, as they really are, but in a 'thing' outside themselves. Courage isn't something born in the heart of those who follow blindly evading the 500 pound elephant in the room, in favor of courting the Darshan and being lifted into the higher planes. I think the experiences people are looking for are just inside the door. We don't have to be led to ourselves do we? just be it, create the flow and it will be your reality.
                             
                            Russ

                            From: Non <eckchains@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 11:14 PM
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                             
                            Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

                            It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

                            A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

                            non eckster ; )

                            --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                            Hello All,
                            Thanks again for the insights.
                            I think I'll make a few comments
                            of my own.

                            "Non"eckchains wrote:
                            Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
                            of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
                            articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
                            like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
                            place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
                            weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
                            course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
                            discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
                            thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
                            just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
                            thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
                            thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
                            blah....!?

                            Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
                            getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
                            wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
                            already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
                            very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
                            seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
                            there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
                            that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
                            is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
                            beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
                            it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
                            of kal, right?

                            ME: It's true that they always
                            reflect the blame for your
                            questions back at you in order
                            to control and manipulate you.
                            Klemp never takes responsibility
                            for anything that happens within
                            Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
                            Yet, EKies will pray to him via
                            asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
                            ego) for parking spaces and
                            for answers to their questions,
                            or for job decisions and for
                            health & prosperity. He's supposed
                            to be taking care of his H.I.s
                            but it doesn't happen anymore
                            for Ekists than it does for
                            Christians... actually "miracles"
                            happen less for ECKists than
                            for Christians. Google and
                            compare the testimonials!

                            I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
                            on cults of all kinds and recovery.

                            http://www.refocus.org/

                            noneckster ; )

                            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                            It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
                            eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
                            right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
                            abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.

                            ME: It's that way with all religions.
                            The more the merrier... not! Yes,
                            the more people believing the same
                            lies and conforming to the same rules
                            and laws is proof, for many, that the
                            religion is valid and true. How can
                            so many intelligent people be fooled
                            an be wrong?

                            I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
                            sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
                            they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
                            to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
                            institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
                            driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
                            that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
                            suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
                            about his beliefs.

                            How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
                            necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
                            eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
                            But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
                            ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
                            eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
                            is.

                            ME: One becomes focused upon
                            how to explain questions away
                            without considering the premise
                            that those uniform explanations
                            are inaccurate and are designed
                            to be intentionally misleading.

                            I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
                            in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
                            believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
                            suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
                            What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
                            what the teachings did for you in your own life.

                            ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
                            ECK booth at a secular event that
                            was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
                            Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
                            event you might have a different
                            experience. I have. Think about
                            a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
                            750,000 in attendance. Or, how
                            about an EK Booth at a street fair
                            across from a major university.
                            Anyway, we did come under verbal
                            attack from time-to-time. Of course
                            we really didn't care if they joined
                            or not... that was their karma...
                            we did our part by being there
                            if nothing else. That reminds me.
                            Remember how we were told that
                            when we stir up deep seated truth
                            that if will affect people negatively
                            because they can't handle it. The
                            same goes for what we're saying,
                            here, about Eckankar. The Truth
                            is being stirred up and ECkists
                            can't handle it and that's what
                            upsets them. Gotta Go... later!

                            Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
                            told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
                            written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
                            work.

                            I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
                            they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
                            like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
                            they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
                            from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
                            of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
                            they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
                            The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
                            of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
                            from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
                            that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
                            fed to me anyway.

                            Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
                            teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
                            Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
                            slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
                            members.

                            Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
                            numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
                            would be interesting to know however.

                            I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
                            supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
                            worlds,
                            so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
                            he do
                            something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?

                            eckchains wrote:

                            At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
                            really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
                            denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
                            pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
                            ever more deluded.
                            >
                            My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
                            and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
                            denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
                            others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
                            and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
                            does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
                            >
                            Truth to them is just TWISTED.
                            >
                            noneckster ; )



                          • Janice Pfeiffer
                            I also thank you non eckester. Your contributions are invaluable to my learning and growth.  I feel most fortunate indeed to have the insights of all of
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 8 3:26 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I also thank you non eckester. Your contributions are invaluable to my learning and growth.  I feel most fortunate indeed to have the insights of all of you. 
                               
                              To Russ:  I found your mentioning living in a communial situation very interesting.  I would so like to hear more if you can share it.
                               
                              In closing, I would like you all to know that I feel blessed by being a part of this site and having the opportunity to see more of the hearts and minds of all of you as we discuss our experiences in eckankar. 
                               
                              Each and every one of you shows true beauty and wisdom, much more evident than that of devout eckist.  So my brothers and sisters, if we failed to fit into the eckankar scheme it must mean we had grown past it's boundaries. 
                               
                              Bless you all as you have blessed me with your knowledge.
                               


                              --- On Wed, 8/8/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                              From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
                              To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                              Date: Wednesday, August 8, 2012, 1:29 AM

                               
                              I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path. Eckankar fit the bill. At the time I was really into magical thinking, dreams as a doorway to invisible worlds and the mythology of the superman. I couldn't believe in the normal, ordinary as being all there was. Now, however I feel that everyone who is 'doing' eckankar are believers. but not in themselves, as they really are, but in a 'thing' outside themselves. Courage isn't something born in the heart of those who follow blindly evading the 500 pound elephant in the room, in favor of courting the Darshan and being lifted into the higher planes. I think the experiences people are looking for are just inside the door. We don't have to be led to ourselves do we? just be it, create the flow and it will be your reality.
                               
                              Russ

                              From: Non <eckchains@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 11:14 PM
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                               
                              Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

                              It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

                              A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

                              non eckster ; )

                              --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                              Hello All,
                              Thanks again for the insights.
                              I think I'll make a few comments
                              of my own.

                              "Non"eckchains wrote:
                              Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
                              of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
                              articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
                              like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
                              place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
                              weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
                              course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
                              discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
                              thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
                              just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
                              thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
                              thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
                              blah....!?

                              Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
                              getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
                              wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
                              already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
                              very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
                              seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
                              there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
                              that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
                              is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
                              beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
                              it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
                              of kal, right?

                              ME: It's true that they always
                              reflect the blame for your
                              questions back at you in order
                              to control and manipulate you.
                              Klemp never takes responsibility
                              for anything that happens within
                              Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
                              Yet, EKies will pray to him via
                              asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
                              ego) for parking spaces and
                              for answers to their questions,
                              or for job decisions and for
                              health & prosperity. He's supposed
                              to be taking care of his H.I.s
                              but it doesn't happen anymore
                              for Ekists than it does for
                              Christians... actually "miracles"
                              happen less for ECKists than
                              for Christians. Google and
                              compare the testimonials!

                              I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
                              on cults of all kinds and recovery.

                              http://www.refocus.org/

                              noneckster ; )

                              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                              It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
                              eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
                              right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
                              abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.

                              ME: It's that way with all religions.
                              The more the merrier... not! Yes,
                              the more people believing the same
                              lies and conforming to the same rules
                              and laws is proof, for many, that the
                              religion is valid and true. How can
                              so many intelligent people be fooled
                              an be wrong?

                              I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
                              sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
                              they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
                              to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
                              institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
                              driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
                              that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
                              suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
                              about his beliefs.

                              How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
                              necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
                              eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
                              But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
                              ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
                              eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
                              is.

                              ME: One becomes focused upon
                              how to explain questions away
                              without considering the premise
                              that those uniform explanations
                              are inaccurate and are designed
                              to be intentionally misleading.

                              I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
                              in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
                              believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
                              suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
                              What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
                              what the teachings did for you in your own life.

                              ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
                              ECK booth at a secular event that
                              was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
                              Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
                              event you might have a different
                              experience. I have. Think about
                              a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
                              750,000 in attendance. Or, how
                              about an EK Booth at a street fair
                              across from a major university.
                              Anyway, we did come under verbal
                              attack from time-to-time. Of course
                              we really didn't care if they joined
                              or not... that was their karma...
                              we did our part by being there
                              if nothing else. That reminds me.
                              Remember how we were told that
                              when we stir up deep seated truth
                              that if will affect people negatively
                              because they can't handle it. The
                              same goes for what we're saying,
                              here, about Eckankar. The Truth
                              is being stirred up and ECkists
                              can't handle it and that's what
                              upsets them. Gotta Go... later!

                              Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
                              told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
                              written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
                              work.

                              I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
                              they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
                              like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
                              they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
                              from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
                              of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
                              they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
                              The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
                              of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
                              from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
                              that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
                              fed to me anyway.

                              Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
                              teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
                              Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
                              slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
                              members.

                              Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
                              numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
                              would be interesting to know however.

                              I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
                              supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
                              worlds,
                              so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
                              he do
                              something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?

                              eckchains wrote:

                              At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
                              really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
                              denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
                              pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
                              ever more deluded.
                              >
                              My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
                              and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
                              denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
                              others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
                              and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
                              does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
                              >
                              Truth to them is just TWISTED.
                              >
                              noneckster ; )



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