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Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, I was thinking about some of the lies we were told while in Eckankar and of how and why we accepted them so readily. For instance, there s the long
    Message 1 of 14 , Jul 31 2:00 PM
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      Hello All,
      I was thinking about some
      of the lies we were told
      while in Eckankar and of
      how and why we accepted
      them so readily.

      For instance, there's the
      long standing rule that
      EKists don't proselytize,
      in part, due to the Law
      of Non-Interference.

      But, all this actually meant
      is that ECKists don't go
      door-to-door like Mormons
      and Jehovah Witnesses.
      Proselytizing means trying
      to:

      "proselytize |ˈpräsələˌtīz|
      verb [ with obj. ]
      convert or attempt to convert
      (someone) from one religion,
      belief, or opinion to another:

      the program did have a tremendous
      evangelical effect, proselytizing
      many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing

      for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
      no amount of proselytizing was
      going to change their minds.

      • advocate or promote (a belief
      or course of action): Davis wanted
      to share his concept and proselytize
      his ideas."

      Leaving books and brochures
      in laundromats or bookmarks
      in books at libraries and in
      bookstores is not following
      the Law of Non-Interference.
      Neither is having EK Internet
      Videos or booths at Psychic
      Fairs.

      BTW- Let me speak about another
      thought. Does Klemp have a sense
      of divine intercession? Does he sit
      in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
      cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
      evolution of mankind or for world
      peace? Many religious leaders and
      Maharishis who don't go out and
      preach at least pray for intercession.
      What does Klemp do except write
      trashy books and promote his $$$
      religious wares via his volunteer
      grass roots sales staff and via the
      pros at the ESC.



      Prometheus
    • Janice Pfeiffer
      I think we believed the lies because we simply wanted too.  We thought eckankar filled a void in our lives so we chose to believe the rediculous stuff that
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 1, 2012
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        I think we believed the lies because we simply wanted too.  We thought eckankar filled a void in our lives so we chose to believe the rediculous stuff that helped explain away the inconsistances.  Then, if you got any sense at all, one day, you just have to face the fact that, it is all quite rediculous and the man in charge isn't anything special and even all the other eckist start to appear to be really lacking in social and spiritual graces.  I give thanks everyday that I am not still among the blind.  I give thanks that there are others like you that came out of eckankar's web of spiritual death.  It would be nice if we could wave a magic wand and have all the still deceived become wide open to the truth about eckankar.  We all know it is not going to happen that way.  I believe it is a person's ego that keeps them spell bound in eckankar.  The belief that they are special and that they are set apart from the rest of the world in their specialness is too much to relinquish.  And so they continue to believe that klemp is God made flesh and eckankar is the path to spiritual freedom while they scurry around to do his bidding and give him as much money as they can afford to give.  So friends let us consider ourselves the lucky ones.  Where once we were among the deceived, we did survive the ordeal and maybe we are all just a bit wiser about con artists and how greed can cause some to inslave others for profit.  Bless each and all who did make the journey through the smoke and mirrors of eckankar and can today say it has no more hold on them.  And may all of us think of those still with in it's grasp with compassion.  Chosing the truth isn't always easy over a life of imaginary greatness. 

        --- On Tue, 7/31/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2012, 9:00 PM

         
        Hello All,
        I was thinking about some
        of the lies we were told
        while in Eckankar and of
        how and why we accepted
        them so readily.

        For instance, there's the
        long standing rule that
        EKists don't proselytize,
        in part, due to the Law
        of Non-Interference.

        But, all this actually meant
        is that ECKists don't go
        door-to-door like Mormons
        and Jehovah Witnesses.
        Proselytizing means trying
        to:

        "proselytize |&#712;präs&#601;l&#601;&#716;t&#299;z|
        verb [ with obj. ]
        convert or attempt to convert
        (someone) from one religion,
        belief, or opinion to another:

        the program did have a tremendous
        evangelical effect, proselytizing
        many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing

        for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
        no amount of proselytizing was
        going to change their minds.

        • advocate or promote (a belief
        or course of action): Davis wanted
        to share his concept and proselytize
        his ideas."

        Leaving books and brochures
        in laundromats or bookmarks
        in books at libraries and in
        bookstores is not following
        the Law of Non-Interference.
        Neither is having EK Internet
        Videos or booths at Psychic
        Fairs.

        BTW- Let me speak about another
        thought. Does Klemp have a sense
        of divine intercession? Does he sit
        in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
        cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
        evolution of mankind or for world
        peace? Many religious leaders and
        Maharishis who don't go out and
        preach at least pray for intercession.
        What does Klemp do except write
        trashy books and promote his $$$
        religious wares via his volunteer
        grass roots sales staff and via the
        pros at the ESC.

        Prometheus

      • Non
        At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 1, 2012
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          At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming ever more deluded.

          My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes, denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it does it is the fault of their victims somehow)

          Truth to them is just TWISTED.

          noneckster ; )

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          Hello All,
          I was thinking about some
          of the lies we were told
          while in Eckankar and of
          how and why we accepted
          them so readily.

          For instance, there's the
          long standing rule that
          EKists don't proselytize,
          in part, due to the Law
          of Non-Interference.

          But, all this actually meant
          is that ECKists don't go
          door-to-door like Mormons
          and Jehovah Witnesses.
          Proselytizing means trying
          to:

          "proselytize |ˈpräsələˌtīz|
          verb [ with obj. ]
          convert or attempt to convert
          (someone) from one religion,
          belief, or opinion to another:

          the program did have a tremendous
          evangelical effect, proselytizing
          many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing

          for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
          no amount of proselytizing was
          going to change their minds.

          • advocate or promote (a belief
          or course of action): Davis wanted
          to share his concept and proselytize
          his ideas."

          Leaving books and brochures
          in laundromats or bookmarks
          in books at libraries and in
          bookstores is not following
          the Law of Non-Interference.
          Neither is having EK Internet
          Videos or booths at Psychic
          Fairs.

          BTW- Let me speak about another
          thought. Does Klemp have a sense
          of divine intercession? Does he sit
          in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
          cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
          evolution of mankind or for world
          peace? Many religious leaders and
          Maharishis who don't go out and
          preach at least pray for intercession.
          What does Klemp do except write
          trashy books and promote his $$$
          religious wares via his volunteer
          grass roots sales staff and via the
          pros at the ESC.



          Prometheus
        • Janice Pfeiffer
          It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn t want eckankar.  I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 2, 2012
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            It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want eckankar.  I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more right they can feel about believing.  It always seemed to me that they only abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors. 
             
             I don't blame you for resenting it.  It is uncalled for from any religious sect.  I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view.  Tell your brother to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental institution.  Give him material that debunks his eckankar.  Maybe eckankar is driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it.  If he is that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state.  Maybe you should suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control about his beliefs. 
             
            How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was necessary to get eckankar established.  These are things I was told as a new eckist by older eckist.  They know you are going to hear about the lies.   But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies.  It is drummed into you that eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it is. 
             
            I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are in.  There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non believers.  I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.  What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about what the teachings did for you in your own life. 
             
            Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees.  Newbies aren't told how the whole thing works.  They count on you getting hooked on the written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really work. 
             
            I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how they can keep holding on to something based on lies.  I think it is because like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that they think it is worth while.  Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered from various sources.  There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot of contradictions.  Some don't care that it was stolen material.  It is like they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.  The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see that eckankar is the original and true path.  Well, that is how it was spoon fed to me anyway. 
             
            Now, they even advertise on TV.  What a crock of crap.  The great secret teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial. Membership must be way down.  Klemp must be getting desperate.  Need more slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying members. 
             
            Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their numbers?  I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist.  That would be interesting to know however.
             
            I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes.  I remember that supposedly, the
            God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower worlds, so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad?  Why doesn't he do something about it?  Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it? 

            --- On Thu, 8/2/12, Non <eckchains@...> wrote:

            From: Non <eckchains@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, August 2, 2012, 4:31 AM

             
            At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming ever more deluded.

            My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes, denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it does it is the fault of their victims somehow)

            Truth to them is just TWISTED.

            noneckster ; )

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            Hello All,
            I was thinking about some
            of the lies we were told
            while in Eckankar and of
            how and why we accepted
            them so readily.

            For instance, there's the
            long standing rule that
            EKists don't proselytize,
            in part, due to the Law
            of Non-Interference.

            But, all this actually meant
            is that ECKists don't go
            door-to-door like Mormons
            and Jehovah Witnesses.
            Proselytizing means trying
            to:

            "proselytize |&#712;präs&#601;l&#601;&#716;t&#299;z|
            verb [ with obj. ]
            convert or attempt to convert
            (someone) from one religion,
            belief, or opinion to another:

            the program did have a tremendous
            evangelical effect, proselytizing
            many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing

            for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
            no amount of proselytizing was
            going to change their minds.

            • advocate or promote (a belief
            or course of action): Davis wanted
            to share his concept and proselytize
            his ideas."

            Leaving books and brochures
            in laundromats or bookmarks
            in books at libraries and in
            bookstores is not following
            the Law of Non-Interference.
            Neither is having EK Internet
            Videos or booths at Psychic
            Fairs.

            BTW- Let me speak about another
            thought. Does Klemp have a sense
            of divine intercession? Does he sit
            in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
            cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
            evolution of mankind or for world
            peace? Many religious leaders and
            Maharishis who don't go out and
            preach at least pray for intercession.
            What does Klemp do except write
            trashy books and promote his $$$
            religious wares via his volunteer
            grass roots sales staff and via the
            pros at the ESC.

            Prometheus

          • Non
            Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 2, 2012
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              Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar, thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah, blah....!?

              Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent of kal, right?

              I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings on cults of all kinds and recovery.

              http://www.refocus.org/

              noneckster ; )

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
              >
              > It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want eckankar.  I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more right they can feel about believing.  It always seemed to me that they only abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors. 
              >  
              >  I don't blame you for resenting it.  It is uncalled for from any religious sect.  I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view.  Tell your brother to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental institution.  Give him material that debunks his eckankar.  Maybe eckankar is driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it.  If he is that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state.  Maybe you should suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control about his beliefs. 
              >  
              > How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was necessary to get eckankar established.  These are things I was told as a new eckist by older eckist.  They know you are going to hear about the lies.   But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies.  It is drummed into you that eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it is. 
              >  
              > I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are in.  There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non believers.  I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.  What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about what the teachings did for you in your own life. 
              >  
              > Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees.  Newbies aren't told how the whole thing works.  They count on you getting hooked on the written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really work. 
              >  
              > I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how they can keep holding on to something based on lies.  I think it is because like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that they think it is worth while.  Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered from various sources.  There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot of contradictions.  Some don't care that it was stolen material.  It is like they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.  The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see that eckankar is the original and true path.  Well, that is how it was spoon fed to me anyway. 
              >  
              > Now, they even advertise on TV.  What a crock of crap.  The great secret teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial. Membership must be way down.  Klemp must be getting desperate.  Need more slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying members. 
              >  
              > Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their numbers?  I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist.  That would be interesting to know however.
              >  
              > I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes.  I remember that supposedly, the
              > God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower worlds, so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad?  Why doesn't he do something about it?  Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it? 
              >
              > --- On Thu, 8/2/12, Non <eckchains@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Non <eckchains@...>
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thursday, August 2, 2012, 4:31 AM
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming ever more deluded.
              >
              > My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes, denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
              >
              > Truth to them is just TWISTED.
              >
              > noneckster ; )
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > >
              > Hello All,
              > I was thinking about some
              > of the lies we were told
              > while in Eckankar and of
              > how and why we accepted
              > them so readily.
              >
              > For instance, there's the
              > long standing rule that
              > EKists don't proselytize,
              > in part, due to the Law
              > of Non-Interference.
              >
              > But, all this actually meant
              > is that ECKists don't go
              > door-to-door like Mormons
              > and Jehovah Witnesses.
              > Proselytizing means trying
              > to:
              >
              > "proselytize |ˈpräsələˌtīz|
              > verb [ with obj. ]
              > convert or attempt to convert
              > (someone) from one religion,
              > belief, or opinion to another:
              >
              > the program did have a tremendous
              > evangelical effect, proselytizing
              > many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing
              >
              > for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
              > no amount of proselytizing was
              > going to change their minds.
              >
              > • advocate or promote (a belief
              > or course of action): Davis wanted
              > to share his concept and proselytize
              > his ideas."
              >
              > Leaving books and brochures
              > in laundromats or bookmarks
              > in books at libraries and in
              > bookstores is not following
              > the Law of Non-Interference.
              > Neither is having EK Internet
              > Videos or booths at Psychic
              > Fairs.
              >
              > BTW- Let me speak about another
              > thought. Does Klemp have a sense
              > of divine intercession? Does he sit
              > in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
              > cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
              > evolution of mankind or for world
              > peace? Many religious leaders and
              > Maharishis who don't go out and
              > preach at least pray for intercession.
              > What does Klemp do except write
              > trashy books and promote his $$$
              > religious wares via his volunteer
              > grass roots sales staff and via the
              > pros at the ESC.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
            • Janice Pfeiffer
              Thanks for the link.  I will check it out.  I hope you can feel some pride in knowing that you went into eckankar and you had the sense to get out.  Thanks
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 4, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Thanks for the link.  I will check it out.  I hope you can feel some pride in knowing that you went into eckankar and you had the sense to get out.  Thanks for your story. 

                --- On Fri, 8/3/12, Non <eckchains@...> wrote:

                From: Non <eckchains@...>
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, August 3, 2012, 6:35 AM

                 
                Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar, thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah, blah....!?

                Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent of kal, right?

                I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings on cults of all kinds and recovery.

                http://www.refocus.org/

                noneckster ; )

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                >
                > It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want eckankar.  I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more right they can feel about believing.  It always seemed to me that they only abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors. 
                >  
                >  I don't blame you for resenting it.  It is uncalled for from any religious sect.  I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view.  Tell your brother to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental institution.  Give him material that debunks his eckankar.  Maybe eckankar is driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it.  If he is that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state.  Maybe you should suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control about his beliefs. 
                >  
                > How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was necessary to get eckankar established.  These are things I was told as a new eckist by older eckist.  They know you are going to hear about the lies.   But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies.  It is drummed into you that eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it is. 
                >  
                > I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are in.  There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non believers.  I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.  What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about what the teachings did for you in your own life. 
                >  
                > Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees.  Newbies aren't told how the whole thing works.  They count on you getting hooked on the written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really work. 
                >  
                > I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how they can keep holding on to something based on lies.  I think it is because like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that they think it is worth while.  Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered from various sources.  There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot of contradictions.  Some don't care that it was stolen material.  It is like they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.  The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see that eckankar is the original and true path.  Well, that is how it was spoon fed to me anyway. 
                >  
                > Now, they even advertise on TV.  What a crock of crap.  The great secret teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial. Membership must be way down.  Klemp must be getting desperate.  Need more slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying members. 
                >  
                > Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their numbers?  I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist.  That would be interesting to know however.
                >  
                > I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes.  I remember that supposedly, the
                > God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower worlds, so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad?  Why doesn't he do something about it?  Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it? 
                >
                > --- On Thu, 8/2/12, Non <eckchains@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: Non <eckchains@...>
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Thursday, August 2, 2012, 4:31 AM
                >
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                > At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming ever more deluded.
                >
                > My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes, denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
                >
                > Truth to them is just TWISTED.
                >
                > noneckster ; )
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > >
                > Hello All,
                > I was thinking about some
                > of the lies we were told
                > while in Eckankar and of
                > how and why we accepted
                > them so readily.
                >
                > For instance, there's the
                > long standing rule that
                > EKists don't proselytize,
                > in part, due to the Law
                > of Non-Interference.
                >
                > But, all this actually meant
                > is that ECKists don't go
                > door-to-door like Mormons
                > and Jehovah Witnesses.
                > Proselytizing means trying
                > to:
                >
                > "proselytize |&#712;präs&#601;l&#601;&#716;t&#299;z|
                > verb [ with obj. ]
                > convert or attempt to convert
                > (someone) from one religion,
                > belief, or opinion to another:
                >
                > the program did have a tremendous
                > evangelical effect, proselytizing
                > many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing
                >
                > for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
                > no amount of proselytizing was
                > going to change their minds.
                >
                > • advocate or promote (a belief
                > or course of action): Davis wanted
                > to share his concept and proselytize
                > his ideas."
                >
                > Leaving books and brochures
                > in laundromats or bookmarks
                > in books at libraries and in
                > bookstores is not following
                > the Law of Non-Interference.
                > Neither is having EK Internet
                > Videos or booths at Psychic
                > Fairs.
                >
                > BTW- Let me speak about another
                > thought. Does Klemp have a sense
                > of divine intercession? Does he sit
                > in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
                > cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
                > evolution of mankind or for world
                > peace? Many religious leaders and
                > Maharishis who don't go out and
                > preach at least pray for intercession.
                > What does Klemp do except write
                > trashy books and promote his $$$
                > religious wares via his volunteer
                > grass roots sales staff and via the
                > pros at the ESC.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >

              • prometheus_973
                Hello All, Thanks for the reply. Good insights! I d like to comment as well. Janice Pfeiffer (JP) wrote: I think we believed the lies because we simply wanted
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 5, 2012
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                  Hello All,
                  Thanks for the reply.
                  Good insights! I'd like
                  to comment as well.

                  Janice Pfeiffer (JP) wrote:
                  I think we believed the lies because
                  we simply wanted too. We thought
                  eckankar filled a void in our lives
                  so we chose to believe the rediculous
                  stuff that helped explain away the
                  inconsistances.

                  ME: EK does appeal to those
                  who are nonconformists and
                  who are interested in metaphysics,
                  and New Age topics and agendas.
                  Yes, it did fill a void because our
                  former religions we were raised
                  in did not answer questions that
                  we wanted to "know." These religions
                  were based upon belief, faith, and
                  scripture written, edited, and rewritten
                  by many authors and scribes, who
                  are unknown. And it took place
                  2,000-3,000 years ago (except for
                  the many rewrites). But, religious
                  history is much more recent if you're
                  a Mormon, Scientologist, or an ECKist!


                  JP: Then, if you got any sense at
                  all, one day, you just have to face
                  the fact that, it is all quite rediculous
                  and the man in charge isn't anything
                  special and even all the other eckist
                  start to appear to be really lacking
                  in social and spiritual graces.

                  ME: So true! I knew quite a few
                  who were high up in their local
                  Satsang Orgs who seemed, and
                  were, very unstable.


                  JP: I give thanks everyday that I
                  am not still among the blind. I give
                  thanks that there are others like
                  you that came out of eckankar's
                  web of spiritual death. It would
                  be nice if we could wave a magic
                  wand and have all the still deceived
                  become wide open to the truth
                  about eckankar. We all know it
                  is not going to happen that way.

                  ME: If I had a magic wand I'd
                  change more than just Eckankar.
                  Ford's book (Confessions of A
                  God-Seeker) opened things up
                  for me. I'm just glad I heard about
                  it and then paid the money to buy
                  it and then took my time to read
                  and reflect upon what was being
                  said. I, of course, had to verify
                  the information given by Ford
                  Johnson and purchased "The
                  Path of the Masters." I'd met Ford,
                  knew he was a 7th initiate and
                  a RESA, as well as a Harvard educated
                  attorney, and I had heard him
                  speak so I respected his intellect.
                  I must admit that his book was
                  not a pleasant read because it
                  was shattering my whole belief
                  system and trust.

                  There're two or three funny
                  stories about Ford's book.

                  When it was in manuscript
                  form Ford emailed some of
                  it to 7th Initiates. I had one
                  tell me about it and offered
                  to print it out for me. I declined
                  the offer.

                  Later, a high ranking up and
                  coming local EKist and wannabe
                  RESA, who was a trustee on the
                  local Board, told me about Ford's
                  book. Of all people! Yes, he's
                  still a member of EK and still
                  looking for that 7th and RESA
                  position.

                  Then, there was this really
                  strangely odd EK couple that
                  speed read Ford's book and,
                  then, threw it in the trash.
                  Klemp had printed some of
                  their embellished stories and
                  during one seminar mentioned
                  them by name and pointed
                  them out. They were quite proud
                  and thought they were above
                  even HK's RESA's and a law unto
                  themselves and shared in the
                  "Mahanta Consciousness."
                  Anywho, they put it out there
                  that if anyone wanted to discuss
                  Ford's book that they would
                  take any calls and turn any
                  confused EKists around and
                  back to the "True Religion."



                  JP: I believe it is a person's ego
                  that keeps them spell bound in
                  eckankar. The belief that they are
                  special and that they are set apart
                  from the rest of the world in their
                  specialness is too much to relinquish.
                  And so they continue to believe that
                  klemp is God made flesh and eckankar
                  is the path to spiritual freedom while
                  they scurry around to do his bidding
                  and give him as much money as
                  they can afford to give.

                  ME: Those Initiations are an ego
                  Trap. ECKists claim to practice
                  Detachment, but coveting initiations
                  prevents Detachment. It's a tease
                  or would HK call it a Test? Regardless
                  of how Klemp would deflect it
                  or how EKists rationalize it away
                  the EK Initiations bind them to
                  desires and to the ego.

                  No "true blue" ECKist can say that
                  they don't desire another Initiation.

                  This is why some longtime 7ths,
                  and former RESAs, like Fran Blackwell
                  (bless her heart) will share that
                  "on the Inner she is an 8th." H.I.s
                  have discovered the loophole in
                  The Masters 4 Discourse
                  telling about the Ninth Initiation...
                  that there must be Three Stages
                  to every Initiation since there
                  are Three Stages with the Ninth
                  and everything EK must follow
                  the Principle of the Threes. Thus,
                  Two Stages are on the Inner
                  and the Third and Final Stage
                  is the Outer Confirmation. Therefore,
                  ON THE INNER, before the Final
                  Outer Confirmation Stage, every
                  ECKist could claim to be One
                  Initiation Higher that their EK
                  Membership Card indicates.
                  It's more delusion, but it's what
                  makes all religions work!



                  JP: So friends let us consider ourselves
                  the lucky ones. Where once we were
                  among the deceived, we did survive
                  the ordeal and maybe we are all just
                  a bit wiser about con artists and how
                  greed can cause some to inslave others
                  for profit. Bless each and all who did
                  make the journey through the smoke
                  and mirrors of eckankar and can today
                  say it has no more hold on them. And
                  may all of us think of those still with
                  in it's grasp with compassion. Chosing
                  the truth isn't always easy over a life
                  of imaginary greatness.

                  ME: I was always seeking the TRUTH
                  and Klemp's presence and redundant
                  message certainly isn't anywhere close
                  to what I was looking for. At first it had
                  promise, but after the trap had sprung
                  I was kept too busy with distractions
                  and wasn't allowed to question which
                  would indicate that I was not "ready"
                  for that next initiation.

                  Prometheus


                  prometheus wrote:

                  Hello All,
                  I was thinking about some
                  of the lies we were told
                  while in Eckankar and of
                  how and why we accepted
                  them so readily.

                  For instance, there's the
                  long standing rule that
                  EKists don't proselytize,
                  in part, due to the Law
                  of Non-Interference.

                  But, all this actually meant
                  is that ECKists don't go
                  door-to-door like Mormons
                  and Jehovah Witnesses.
                  Proselytizing means trying
                  to:

                  "proselytize
                  verb [ with obj. ]
                  convert or attempt to convert
                  (someone) from one religion,
                  belief, or opinion to another:

                  the program did have a tremendous
                  evangelical effect, proselytizing
                  many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing

                  for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
                  no amount of proselytizing was
                  going to change their minds.

                  advocate or promote (a belief
                  or course of action): Davis wanted
                  to share his concept and proselytize
                  his ideas."
                  ***
                  Leaving books and brochures
                  in laundromats or bookmarks
                  in books at libraries and in
                  bookstores is not following
                  the Law of Non-Interference.
                  Neither is having EK Internet
                  Videos or booths at Psychic
                  Fairs.

                  BTW- Let me speak about another
                  thought. Does Klemp have a sense
                  of divine intercession? Does he sit
                  in his Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
                  cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
                  evolution of mankind or for world
                  peace? Many religious leaders and
                  Maharishis who don't go out and
                  preach at least pray for intercession.
                  What does Klemp do except write
                  trashy books and promote his $$$
                  religious wares via his volunteer
                  grass roots sales staff and via the
                  pros at the ESC.

                  Prometheus
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello All, Thanks again for the insights. I think I ll make a few comments of my own. Non eckchains wrote: Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 5, 2012
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                    Hello All,
                    Thanks again for the insights.
                    I think I'll make a few comments
                    of my own.

                    "Non"eckchains wrote:
                    Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
                    of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
                    articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
                    like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
                    place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
                    weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
                    course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
                    discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
                    thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
                    just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
                    thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
                    thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
                    blah....!?

                    Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
                    getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
                    wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
                    already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
                    very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
                    seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
                    there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
                    that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
                    is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
                    beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
                    it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
                    of kal, right?

                    ME: It's true that they always
                    reflect the blame for your
                    questions back at you in order
                    to control and manipulate you.
                    Klemp never takes responsibility
                    for anything that happens within
                    Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
                    Yet, EKies will pray to him via
                    asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
                    ego) for parking spaces and
                    for answers to their questions,
                    or for job decisions and for
                    health & prosperity. He's supposed
                    to be taking care of his H.I.s
                    but it doesn't happen anymore
                    for Ekists than it does for
                    Christians... actually "miracles"
                    happen less for ECKists than
                    for Christians. Google and
                    compare the testimonials!


                    I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
                    on cults of all kinds and recovery.

                    http://www.refocus.org/

                    noneckster ; )

                    Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                    It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
                    eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
                    right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
                    abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.


                    ME: It's that way with all religions.
                    The more the merrier... not! Yes,
                    the more people believing the same
                    lies and conforming to the same rules
                    and laws is proof, for many, that the
                    religion is valid and true. How can
                    so many intelligent people be fooled
                    an be wrong?



                    I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
                    sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
                    they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
                    to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
                    institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
                    driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
                    that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
                    suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
                    about his beliefs.

                    How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
                    necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
                    eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
                    But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
                    ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
                    eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
                    is.

                    ME: One becomes focused upon
                    how to explain questions away
                    without considering the premise
                    that those uniform explanations
                    are inaccurate and are designed
                    to be intentionally misleading.



                    I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
                    in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
                    believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
                    suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
                    What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
                    what the teachings did for you in your own life.


                    ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
                    ECK booth at a secular event that
                    was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
                    Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
                    event you might have a different
                    experience. I have. Think about
                    a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
                    750,000 in attendance. Or, how
                    about an EK Booth at a street fair
                    across from a major university.
                    Anyway, we did come under verbal
                    attack from time-to-time. Of course
                    we really didn't care if they joined
                    or not... that was their karma...
                    we did our part by being there
                    if nothing else. That reminds me.
                    Remember how we were told that
                    when we stir up deep seated truth
                    that if will affect people negatively
                    because they can't handle it. The
                    same goes for what we're saying,
                    here, about Eckankar. The Truth
                    is being stirred up and ECkists
                    can't handle it and that's what
                    upsets them. Gotta Go... later!




                    Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
                    told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
                    written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
                    work.

                    I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
                    they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
                    like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
                    they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
                    from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
                    of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
                    they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
                    The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
                    of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
                    from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
                    that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
                    fed to me anyway.

                    Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
                    teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
                    Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
                    slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
                    members.

                    Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
                    numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
                    would be interesting to know however.

                    I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
                    supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower worlds,
                    so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't he do
                    something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?


                    eckchains wrote:

                    At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
                    really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
                    denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
                    pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
                    ever more deluded.
                    >
                    My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
                    and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
                    denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
                    others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
                    and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
                    does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
                    >
                    Truth to them is just TWISTED.
                    >
                    noneckster ; )
                  • Janice Pfeiffer
                    Thank you Prometheus,   You always say it so well.   It wasn t Ford s book that shook me awake.  It was being told by a high initiate how initiations really
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 5, 2012
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                      Thank you Prometheus,
                       
                      You always say it so well.
                       
                      It wasn't Ford's book that shook me awake.  It was being told by a high initiate how initiations really come about and how high initiates report about lower people that usually causes an initiation or prevents one.  I saw so much back biting going on that I found it sincerely offensive that it was these people who would really decide whether or not I got an initiation.   At that time, initiations became worthless to me. 
                       
                      When I asked the questions about such things, the area resa went ballistic on me.  I guess I was supposed to feel bad about myself for asking.  Instead of being spiritually strong, eckist looked like a bunch of whiny cry babies and I felt that my own growth had taken a some what backwards turn since I joined eckankar.  There wasn't anything spiritual in what I was seeing and I decided I would rather decide for myself where I stood. 
                       
                      His behavior along with everything else I had learned was enough to clear my head.  I bought and read Ford's book a few months later.  Coming from some one who had been prominent in eckankar. it helped me deal with my angry feelings about the lies and betrayal. 
                       
                      Funny, high initiates can pass judgment on lower chelas but a lower person can't even ask questions about how things are done.  That to me says they want to hide the truth from you as long as possible.  Finally, I don't see any value of initiations based on gossip and another persons prejudiced observations.
                       
                      I got the pink slip after I had decided to quit.  I guess promoting an unworthy person was better than losing a dues paying member.  I threw the thing in the trash were it belonged.  I haven't spoken to an eckist since then nor do I care to. 
                       
                      I wish non of them any harm but I could never tolerate hearing that dribble again. 


                      --- On Sun, 8/5/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Sunday, August 5, 2012, 6:10 PM

                       
                      Hello All,
                      Thanks for the reply.
                      Good insights! I'd like
                      to comment as well.

                      Janice Pfeiffer (JP) wrote:
                      I think we believed the lies because
                      we simply wanted too. We thought
                      eckankar filled a void in our lives
                      so we chose to believe the rediculous
                      stuff that helped explain away the
                      inconsistances.

                      ME: EK does appeal to those
                      who are nonconformists and
                      who are interested in metaphysics,
                      and New Age topics and agendas.
                      Yes, it did fill a void because our
                      former religions we were raised
                      in did not answer questions that
                      we wanted to "know." These religions
                      were based upon belief, faith, and
                      scripture written, edited, and rewritten
                      by many authors and scribes, who
                      are unknown. And it took place
                      2,000-3,000 years ago (except for
                      the many rewrites). But, religious
                      history is much more recent if you're
                      a Mormon, Scientologist, or an ECKist!

                      JP: Then, if you got any sense at
                      all, one day, you just have to face
                      the fact that, it is all quite rediculous
                      and the man in charge isn't anything
                      special and even all the other eckist
                      start to appear to be really lacking
                      in social and spiritual graces.

                      ME: So true! I knew quite a few
                      who were high up in their local
                      Satsang Orgs who seemed, and
                      were, very unstable.


                      JP: I give thanks everyday that I
                      am not still among the blind. I give
                      thanks that there are others like
                      you that came out of eckankar's
                      web of spiritual death. It would
                      be nice if we could wave a magic
                      wand and have all the still deceived
                      become wide open to the truth
                      about eckankar. We all know it
                      is not going to happen that way.

                      ME: If I had a magic wand I'd
                      change more than just Eckankar.
                      Ford's book (Confessions of A
                      God-Seeker) opened things up
                      for me. I'm just glad I heard about
                      it and then paid the money to buy
                      it and then took my time to read
                      and reflect upon what was being
                      said. I, of course, had to verify
                      the information given by Ford
                      Johnson and purchased "The
                      Path of the Masters." I'd met Ford,
                      knew he was a 7th initiate and
                      a RESA, as well as a Harvard educated
                      attorney, and I had heard him
                      speak so I respected his intellect.
                      I must admit that his book was
                      not a pleasant read because it
                      was shattering my whole belief
                      system and trust.

                      There're two or three funny
                      stories about Ford's book.

                      When it was in manuscript
                      form Ford emailed some of
                      it to 7th Initiates. I had one
                      tell me about it and offered
                      to print it out for me. I declined
                      the offer.

                      Later, a high ranking up and
                      coming local EKist and wannabe
                      RESA, who was a trustee on the
                      local Board, told me about Ford's
                      book. Of all people! Yes, he's
                      still a member of EK and still
                      looking for that 7th and RESA
                      position.

                      Then, there was this really
                      strangely odd EK couple that
                      speed read Ford's book and,
                      then, threw it in the trash.
                      Klemp had printed some of
                      their embellished stories and
                      during one seminar mentioned
                      them by name and pointed
                      them out. They were quite proud
                      and thought they were above
                      even HK's RESA's and a law unto
                      themselves and shared in the
                      "Mahanta Consciousness."
                      Anywho, they put it out there
                      that if anyone wanted to discuss
                      Ford's book that they would
                      take any calls and turn any
                      confused EKists around and
                      back to the "True Religion."

                      JP: I believe it is a person's ego
                      that keeps them spell bound in
                      eckankar. The belief that they are
                      special and that they are set apart
                      from the rest of the world in their
                      specialness is too much to relinquish.
                      And so they continue to believe that
                      klemp is God made flesh and eckankar
                      is the path to spiritual freedom while
                      they scurry around to do his bidding
                      and give him as much money as
                      they can afford to give.

                      ME: Those Initiations are an ego
                      Trap. ECKists claim to practice
                      Detachment, but coveting initiations
                      prevents Detachment. It's a tease
                      or would HK call it a Test? Regardless
                      of how Klemp would deflect it
                      or how EKists rationalize it away
                      the EK Initiations bind them to
                      desires and to the ego.

                      No "true blue" ECKist can say that
                      they don't desire another Initiation.

                      This is why some longtime 7ths,
                      and former RESAs, like Fran Blackwell
                      (bless her heart) will share that
                      "on the Inner she is an 8th." H.I.s
                      have discovered the loophole in
                      The Masters 4 Discourse
                      telling about the Ninth Initiation...
                      that there must be Three Stages
                      to every Initiation since there
                      are Three Stages with the Ninth
                      and everything EK must follow
                      the Principle of the Threes. Thus,
                      Two Stages are on the Inner
                      and the Third and Final Stage
                      is the Outer Confirmation. Therefore,
                      ON THE INNER, before the Final
                      Outer Confirmation Stage, every
                      ECKist could claim to be One
                      Initiation Higher that their EK
                      Membership Card indicates.
                      It's more delusion, but it's what
                      makes all religions work!

                      JP: So friends let us consider ourselves
                      the lucky ones. Where once we were
                      among the deceived, we did survive
                      the ordeal and maybe we are all just
                      a bit wiser about con artists and how
                      greed can cause some to inslave others
                      for profit. Bless each and all who did
                      make the journey through the smoke
                      and mirrors of eckankar and can today
                      say it has no more hold on them. And
                      may all of us think of those still with
                      in it's grasp with compassion. Chosing
                      the truth isn't always easy over a life
                      of imaginary greatness.

                      ME: I was always seeking the TRUTH
                      and Klemp's presence and redundant
                      message certainly isn't anywhere close
                      to what I was looking for. At first it had
                      promise, but after the trap had sprung
                      I was kept too busy with distractions
                      and wasn't allowed to question which
                      would indicate that I was not "ready"
                      for that next initiation.

                      Prometheus

                      prometheus wrote:

                      Hello All,
                      I was thinking about some
                      of the lies we were told
                      while in Eckankar and of
                      how and why we accepted
                      them so readily.

                      For instance, there's the
                      long standing rule that
                      EKists don't proselytize,
                      in part, due to the Law
                      of Non-Interference.

                      But, all this actually meant
                      is that ECKists don't go
                      door-to-door like Mormons
                      and Jehovah Witnesses.
                      Proselytizing means trying
                      to:

                      "proselytize
                      verb [ with obj. ]
                      convert or attempt to convert
                      (someone) from one religion,
                      belief, or opinion to another:

                      the program did have a tremendous
                      evangelical effect, proselytizing
                      many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing

                      for converts | (as noun proselytizing) :
                      no amount of proselytizing was
                      going to change their minds.

                      advocate or promote (a belief
                      or course of action): Davis wanted
                      to share his concept and proselytize
                      his ideas."
                      ***
                      Leaving books and brochures
                      in laundromats or bookmarks
                      in books at libraries and in
                      bookstores is not following
                      the Law of Non-Interference.
                      Neither is having EK Internet
                      Videos or booths at Psychic
                      Fairs.

                      BTW- Let me speak about another
                      thought. Does Klemp have a sense
                      of divine intercession? Does he sit
                      in his Eden Prairie (mahanta) man
                      cave and HU/pray for the spiritual
                      evolution of mankind or for world
                      peace? Many religious leaders and
                      Maharishis who don't go out and
                      preach at least pray for intercession.
                      What does Klemp do except write
                      trashy books and promote his $$$
                      religious wares via his volunteer
                      grass roots sales staff and via the
                      pros at the ESC.

                      Prometheus

                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Non eckchains, Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences. I ll include some comments as well. Non eckchains wrote: Actually, and
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 6, 2012
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                        Hello Non eckchains,
                        Thanks for taking the time
                        to share your experiences.
                        I'll include some comments
                        as well.

                        "Non" eckchains wrote:
                        Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
                        of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
                        articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
                        like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
                        place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
                        weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
                        course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
                        discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
                        thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
                        just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
                        thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
                        thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
                        blah....!?


                        ME: I think that many ECKists
                        were very gung-ho when they
                        started out. We, and those we
                        associated with, were fanatics.
                        We'd find the other fanatics at
                        the seminars because we all
                        volunteered in order to get
                        close to and rub elbows with
                        the higher ups and would be
                        assigned backstage or in
                        back hallways where the LEM
                        would sneak in with his entourage.
                        Sometimes a half dozen of us
                        would stay in the same room.

                        Also, In the old days it was okay
                        to receive and study two discourses
                        at the same time and my mentor,
                        a 7th initiate, recommended
                        that I do that. One discourse
                        was for private study, one was
                        for Satsang class.

                        BTW-I wrote to celebrities recommending
                        Eckankar too, but Nixon wasn't
                        included. Quite frankly, I can't
                        remember who they were, but
                        that's okay because it would
                        just embarrass me to remember.
                        It was fun at first but became
                        bullshit when I saw ECkists who
                        were not as spiritually advanced
                        as others getting promoted. And,
                        it happened all the time because
                        Gross and Klemp had no clue.
                        They depend upon others to tell
                        them who should be promoted.


                        Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
                        getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
                        wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
                        already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
                        very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
                        seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
                        there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
                        that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
                        is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
                        beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
                        it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
                        of kal, right?


                        ME: Yes, that's about it. And, yes, one isn't
                        permitted to keep asking questions, unless,
                        you're new. After you get the 2nd initiation
                        that's it for questions... no more! You're
                        supposed to get your answers on the inner
                        or have faith that you're being led by the
                        inner master even if you can't dream of him.
                        Generally, even non-eckists can see a blue
                        light when they meditate. It's supposed to
                        be the Blue Light of the Mental Plane versus
                        the Mahanta. Maybe that's why it's interchangeable
                        since more people tend to see a blue light.
                        But, prior to EK I would see yellow and white
                        lights too.



                        I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
                        on cults of all kinds and recovery.

                        http://www.refocus.org/


                        At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
                        really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
                        denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
                        pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
                        ever more deluded.


                        ME: The thing is, most of us delude
                        ourselves to varying degrees about
                        all sorts of things whether known,
                        or repressed and forgotten. It can
                        be fun to dream and pretend and
                        to deny reality, but it does catch
                        up to people, usually, when it's
                        almost too late. Being young at
                        heart doesn't mean we shouldn't
                        grow up and see beyond the make-
                        believe or the lies. ECKists are generally
                        very passive and this is what makes
                        them lazy thinkers. They get too
                        comfortable. But, Klemp keeps them
                        busy so they don't have time to think
                        about life without Eckankar. The
                        irony is the Easy Way Discourse because
                        Eckankar, itself, is the Easy Way.


                        My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
                        and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
                        denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
                        others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
                        and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
                        does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
                        Truth to them is just TWISTED.


                        ME: I always thought it was odd
                        to claim that Jesus was a 2nd initiate
                        and that Harold was a childhood
                        friend of Jesus. It's especially odd
                        when the liars Twitchell, Gross,
                        and Klemp couldn't/can't hold a
                        candle to what Jesus did and taught.
                        EKists act like they are far above
                        others in awareness/spiritual
                        consciousness etc. with their fake
                        initiations, but look at how H.I.s
                        treat fellow EKists let alone what
                        they think of the public. It's really
                        very hypocritical of ECKists when
                        they can't even follow the teachings
                        of love, compassion, empathy
                        (Klemp's nemesis), tolerance,
                        and forgiveness as "2nd initiate"
                        Jesus lived and taught. [end]
                        -prometheus



                        noneckster ; )
                      • Non
                        Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 6, 2012
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                          Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

                          It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

                          A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

                          non eckster ; )

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                          Hello All,
                          Thanks again for the insights.
                          I think I'll make a few comments
                          of my own.

                          "Non"eckchains wrote:
                          Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
                          of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
                          articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
                          like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
                          place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
                          weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
                          course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
                          discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
                          thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
                          just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
                          thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
                          thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
                          blah....!?

                          Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
                          getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
                          wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
                          already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
                          very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
                          seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
                          there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
                          that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
                          is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
                          beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
                          it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
                          of kal, right?

                          ME: It's true that they always
                          reflect the blame for your
                          questions back at you in order
                          to control and manipulate you.
                          Klemp never takes responsibility
                          for anything that happens within
                          Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
                          Yet, EKies will pray to him via
                          asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
                          ego) for parking spaces and
                          for answers to their questions,
                          or for job decisions and for
                          health & prosperity. He's supposed
                          to be taking care of his H.I.s
                          but it doesn't happen anymore
                          for Ekists than it does for
                          Christians... actually "miracles"
                          happen less for ECKists than
                          for Christians. Google and
                          compare the testimonials!


                          I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
                          on cults of all kinds and recovery.

                          http://www.refocus.org/

                          noneckster ; )

                          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                          It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
                          eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
                          right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
                          abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.


                          ME: It's that way with all religions.
                          The more the merrier... not! Yes,
                          the more people believing the same
                          lies and conforming to the same rules
                          and laws is proof, for many, that the
                          religion is valid and true. How can
                          so many intelligent people be fooled
                          an be wrong?



                          I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
                          sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
                          they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
                          to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
                          institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
                          driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
                          that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
                          suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
                          about his beliefs.

                          How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
                          necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
                          eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
                          But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
                          ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
                          eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
                          is.

                          ME: One becomes focused upon
                          how to explain questions away
                          without considering the premise
                          that those uniform explanations
                          are inaccurate and are designed
                          to be intentionally misleading.



                          I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
                          in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
                          believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
                          suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
                          What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
                          what the teachings did for you in your own life.


                          ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
                          ECK booth at a secular event that
                          was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
                          Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
                          event you might have a different
                          experience. I have. Think about
                          a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
                          750,000 in attendance. Or, how
                          about an EK Booth at a street fair
                          across from a major university.
                          Anyway, we did come under verbal
                          attack from time-to-time. Of course
                          we really didn't care if they joined
                          or not... that was their karma...
                          we did our part by being there
                          if nothing else. That reminds me.
                          Remember how we were told that
                          when we stir up deep seated truth
                          that if will affect people negatively
                          because they can't handle it. The
                          same goes for what we're saying,
                          here, about Eckankar. The Truth
                          is being stirred up and ECkists
                          can't handle it and that's what
                          upsets them. Gotta Go... later!




                          Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
                          told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
                          written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
                          work.

                          I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
                          they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
                          like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
                          they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
                          from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
                          of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
                          they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
                          The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
                          of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
                          from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
                          that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
                          fed to me anyway.

                          Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
                          teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
                          Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
                          slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
                          members.

                          Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
                          numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
                          would be interesting to know however.

                          I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
                          supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
                          worlds,
                          so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
                          he do
                          something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?


                          eckchains wrote:

                          At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
                          really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
                          denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
                          pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
                          ever more deluded.
                          >
                          My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
                          and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
                          denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
                          others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
                          and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
                          does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
                          >
                          Truth to them is just TWISTED.
                          >
                          noneckster ; )
                        • Russ Rodnick
                          I agree with your perception regarding the imaginary greatness. To reveal a personal truth, for me these ideals covered my insecurities allowing me to get out
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 7, 2012
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                            I agree with your perception regarding the imaginary greatness. To reveal a personal truth, for me these ideals covered my insecurities allowing me to get out of myself which is a good thing, I think. What good came of it, for me it was the first time that I felt an identification within myself with the idea of being a vehicle for spirit. Post-eck, I am still becoming a vehicle for spirit, but it doesn't have anything to do with HKor other imaginary masters. However, I do feel a Presence at times, that feels higher but is devoid of personality. I think it is a part of myself rather than another person or entity. Freedom.
                             
                            so, it's not all black and white for me, you know what I mean?
                             
                            Good wishes to you!

                            Russ

                            From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2012 11:24 PM
                            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
                             
                            I think we believed the lies because we simply wanted too.  We thought eckankar filled a void in our lives so we chose to believe the rediculous stuff that helped explain away the inconsistances.  Then, if you got any sense at all, one day, you just have to face the fact that, it is all quite rediculous and the man in charge isn't anything special and even all the other eckist start to appear to be really lacking in social and spiritual graces.  I give thanks everyday that I am not still among the blind.  I give thanks that there are others like you that came out of eckankar's web of spiritual death.  It would be nice if we could wave a magic wand and have all the still deceived become wide open to the truth about eckankar.  We all know it is not going to happen that way.  I believe it is a person's ego that keeps them spell bound in eckankar.  The belief that they are special and that they are set apart from the rest of the world in their specialness is too much to relinquish.  And so they continue to believe that klemp is God made flesh and eckankar is the path to spiritual freedom while they scurry around to do his bidding and give him as much money as they can afford to give.  So friends let us consider ourselves the lucky ones.  Where once we were among the deceived, we did survive the ordeal and maybe we are all just a bit wiser about con artists and how greed can cause some to inslave others for profit.  Bless each and all who did make the journey through the smoke and mirrors of eckankar and can today say it has no more hold on them.  And may all of us think of those still with in it's grasp with compassion.  Chosing the truth isn't always easy over a life of imaginary greatness. 

                            --- On Tue, 7/31/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Tuesday, July 31, 2012, 9:00 PM

                             
                            Hello All, I was thinking about some of the lies we were told while in Eckankar and of how and why we accepted them so readily. For instance, there's the long standing rule that EKists don't proselytize, in part, due to the Law of Non-Interference. But, all this actually meant is that ECKists don't go door-to-door like Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. Proselytizing means trying to: "proselytize |&#712;präs&#601;l&#601;&#716;t&#299;z| verb [ with obj. ] convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another: the program did have a tremendous evangelical effect, proselytizing many | [ no obj. ] : proselytizing for converts | (as noun proselytizing) : no amount of proselytizing was going to change their minds. • advocate or promote (a belief or course of action): Davis wanted to share his concept and proselytize his ideas." Leaving books and brochures in laundromats or bookmarks in books at libraries and in bookstores is not following the Law of Non-Interference. Neither is having EK Internet Videos or booths at Psychic Fairs. BTW- Let me speak about another thought. Does Klemp have a sense of divine intercession? Does he sit in this Eden Prairie (mahanta) man cave and HU/pray for the spiritual evolution of mankind or for world peace? Many religious leaders and Maharishis who don't go out and preach at least pray for intercession. What does Klemp do except write trashy books and promote his $$$ religious wares via his volunteer grass roots sales staff and via the pros at the ESC. Prometheus
                          • Russ Rodnick
                            I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path.
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 7, 2012
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                              I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path. Eckankar fit the bill. At the time I was really into magical thinking, dreams as a doorway to invisible worlds and the mythology of the superman. I couldn't believe in the normal, ordinary as being all there was. Now, however I feel that everyone who is 'doing' eckankar are believers. but not in themselves, as they really are, but in a 'thing' outside themselves. Courage isn't something born in the heart of those who follow blindly evading the 500 pound elephant in the room, in favor of courting the Darshan and being lifted into the higher planes. I think the experiences people are looking for are just inside the door. We don't have to be led to ourselves do we? just be it, create the flow and it will be your reality.
                               
                              Russ

                              From: Non <eckchains@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 11:14 PM
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                               
                              Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

                              It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

                              A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

                              non eckster ; )

                              --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                              Hello All,
                              Thanks again for the insights.
                              I think I'll make a few comments
                              of my own.

                              "Non"eckchains wrote:
                              Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
                              of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
                              articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
                              like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
                              place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
                              weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
                              course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
                              discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
                              thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
                              just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
                              thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
                              thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
                              blah....!?

                              Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
                              getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
                              wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
                              already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
                              very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
                              seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
                              there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
                              that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
                              is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
                              beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
                              it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
                              of kal, right?

                              ME: It's true that they always
                              reflect the blame for your
                              questions back at you in order
                              to control and manipulate you.
                              Klemp never takes responsibility
                              for anything that happens within
                              Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
                              Yet, EKies will pray to him via
                              asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
                              ego) for parking spaces and
                              for answers to their questions,
                              or for job decisions and for
                              health & prosperity. He's supposed
                              to be taking care of his H.I.s
                              but it doesn't happen anymore
                              for Ekists than it does for
                              Christians... actually "miracles"
                              happen less for ECKists than
                              for Christians. Google and
                              compare the testimonials!

                              I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
                              on cults of all kinds and recovery.

                              http://www.refocus.org/

                              noneckster ; )

                              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                              It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
                              eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
                              right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
                              abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.

                              ME: It's that way with all religions.
                              The more the merrier... not! Yes,
                              the more people believing the same
                              lies and conforming to the same rules
                              and laws is proof, for many, that the
                              religion is valid and true. How can
                              so many intelligent people be fooled
                              an be wrong?

                              I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
                              sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
                              they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
                              to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
                              institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
                              driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
                              that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
                              suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
                              about his beliefs.

                              How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
                              necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
                              eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
                              But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
                              ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
                              eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
                              is.

                              ME: One becomes focused upon
                              how to explain questions away
                              without considering the premise
                              that those uniform explanations
                              are inaccurate and are designed
                              to be intentionally misleading.

                              I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
                              in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
                              believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
                              suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
                              What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
                              what the teachings did for you in your own life.

                              ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
                              ECK booth at a secular event that
                              was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
                              Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
                              event you might have a different
                              experience. I have. Think about
                              a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
                              750,000 in attendance. Or, how
                              about an EK Booth at a street fair
                              across from a major university.
                              Anyway, we did come under verbal
                              attack from time-to-time. Of course
                              we really didn't care if they joined
                              or not... that was their karma...
                              we did our part by being there
                              if nothing else. That reminds me.
                              Remember how we were told that
                              when we stir up deep seated truth
                              that if will affect people negatively
                              because they can't handle it. The
                              same goes for what we're saying,
                              here, about Eckankar. The Truth
                              is being stirred up and ECkists
                              can't handle it and that's what
                              upsets them. Gotta Go... later!

                              Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
                              told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
                              written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
                              work.

                              I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
                              they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
                              like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
                              they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
                              from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
                              of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
                              they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
                              The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
                              of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
                              from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
                              that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
                              fed to me anyway.

                              Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
                              teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
                              Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
                              slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
                              members.

                              Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
                              numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
                              would be interesting to know however.

                              I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
                              supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
                              worlds,
                              so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
                              he do
                              something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?

                              eckchains wrote:

                              At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
                              really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
                              denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
                              pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
                              ever more deluded.
                              >
                              My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
                              and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
                              denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
                              others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
                              and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
                              does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
                              >
                              Truth to them is just TWISTED.
                              >
                              noneckster ; )



                            • Janice Pfeiffer
                              I also thank you non eckester. Your contributions are invaluable to my learning and growth.  I feel most fortunate indeed to have the insights of all of
                              Message 14 of 14 , Aug 8, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I also thank you non eckester. Your contributions are invaluable to my learning and growth.  I feel most fortunate indeed to have the insights of all of you. 
                                 
                                To Russ:  I found your mentioning living in a communial situation very interesting.  I would so like to hear more if you can share it.
                                 
                                In closing, I would like you all to know that I feel blessed by being a part of this site and having the opportunity to see more of the hearts and minds of all of you as we discuss our experiences in eckankar. 
                                 
                                Each and every one of you shows true beauty and wisdom, much more evident than that of devout eckist.  So my brothers and sisters, if we failed to fit into the eckankar scheme it must mean we had grown past it's boundaries. 
                                 
                                Bless you all as you have blessed me with your knowledge.
                                 


                                --- On Wed, 8/8/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                                From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?
                                To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                Date: Wednesday, August 8, 2012, 1:29 AM

                                 
                                I was living in a commune type environment for 10 years and after I left that I felt a void inside that I wanted to fill with an active spiritual path. Eckankar fit the bill. At the time I was really into magical thinking, dreams as a doorway to invisible worlds and the mythology of the superman. I couldn't believe in the normal, ordinary as being all there was. Now, however I feel that everyone who is 'doing' eckankar are believers. but not in themselves, as they really are, but in a 'thing' outside themselves. Courage isn't something born in the heart of those who follow blindly evading the 500 pound elephant in the room, in favor of courting the Darshan and being lifted into the higher planes. I think the experiences people are looking for are just inside the door. We don't have to be led to ourselves do we? just be it, create the flow and it will be your reality.
                                 
                                Russ

                                From: Non <eckchains@...>
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, August 6, 2012 11:14 PM
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                                 
                                Thanks Janice and Prometheus for your comments and empathy. I think some of us are more sensitive, while others are more resilient, and of course there are other factors that have to do with periods of transition where all of us may be more vulnerable to getting dragged into a destructive cult.

                                It is true that coming from a religious upbringing that relies on "faith" that the initial attraction of an eckankar like cult seems to offer proof through experience. Yet, as has been pointed out many times here, that if the lame living eck master/mahanta is so omnipotent, omnipresent, and all knowing etc. then why use HI spies and snail mail to watch over his flock. Experience is subjective and delusion is ripe for those who are told what their experience is supposed to be. Here's an experiment. Think of a certain car, and for that day you will see that kind of car every where you drive.

                                A previous post with a quote from the Dahlia Lama that their philosophy was simply kindness really speaks to me. If there is one thing I am beginning to learn, it is that coming back down to earth being is the basis for anything else we may discover spiritually or even psychologically. Tis a Gift to be Simple is a great little song.

                                non eckster ; )

                                --- In mailto:EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous%40yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Re: Why Don't ECKists See the Truth?

                                Hello All,
                                Thanks again for the insights.
                                I think I'll make a few comments
                                of my own.

                                "Non"eckchains wrote:
                                Actually, and unfortunately, I did join eckankar long enough to get a few years
                                of discourses and attended some classes, read all the current books and
                                articles. A lot of it was paid for by my brother. He got me in a car once acting
                                like we were just going for a drive in the country and ended up parking at some
                                place in the middle of nowhere to see Darwin Gross give a talk and so on. It was
                                weird and a real mind screw. Fortunately, I was in college at some point and of
                                course could not adhere to the not reading other books and to memorizing each
                                discourse. I even asked a professor of a class on comparative religion what he
                                thought. I was so brain washed that I could not head his suggestion that it was
                                just a mishmash of a made up mysticism/religion. At one point, I seriously
                                thought about sending President Nixon a letter telling him about eckankar,
                                thinking that this would set him on the right path to the godhead, blah,
                                blah....!?

                                Ultimately, I asked way too many questions at eck meetings that people started
                                getting pissed at me. Of course I took it to mean that there must be something
                                wrong with me for having doubts. I did have a tendency for lucid dreaming
                                already. But there were so many other types of cults at that time that I became
                                very confused by some of the experiences I would have and seeking a therapist
                                seemed to be out of the question. Cults make you feel so nuts that you feel like
                                there is no one to talk to. It has taken me years to come to terms with all of
                                that and the difficulty is unfortunately having to deal with a family member who
                                is still in the cult and sees you as a threat to their idiotic authoritarian
                                beliefs as an eck drone. eckists see all others as eckists who just don't know
                                it yet, and if you actually reject it, well then you are just a conscious agent
                                of kal, right?

                                ME: It's true that they always
                                reflect the blame for your
                                questions back at you in order
                                to control and manipulate you.
                                Klemp never takes responsibility
                                for anything that happens within
                                Eckankar or within chelas' lives.
                                Yet, EKies will pray to him via
                                asking the Mahanta (HK's alter
                                ego) for parking spaces and
                                for answers to their questions,
                                or for job decisions and for
                                health & prosperity. He's supposed
                                to be taking care of his H.I.s
                                but it doesn't happen anymore
                                for Ekists than it does for
                                Christians... actually "miracles"
                                happen less for ECKists than
                                for Christians. Google and
                                compare the testimonials!

                                I found some good stuff on this site that has some of Margaret Singer's writings
                                on cults of all kinds and recovery.

                                http://www.refocus.org/

                                noneckster ; )

                                Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

                                It is a shame your brother would be abusive toward you because you didn't want
                                eckankar. I guess they think the more people they can convince, then the more
                                right they can feel about believing. It always seemed to me that they only
                                abused lower members who didn't bow down and worship them as their superiors.

                                ME: It's that way with all religions.
                                The more the merrier... not! Yes,
                                the more people believing the same
                                lies and conforming to the same rules
                                and laws is proof, for many, that the
                                religion is valid and true. How can
                                so many intelligent people be fooled
                                an be wrong?

                                I don't blame you for resenting it. It is uncalled for from any religious
                                sect. I always disliked it when Christians would shovel out their beliefs like
                                they couldn't accept anything but their own point of view. Tell your brother
                                to follow the example of his beloved leader and check himself into a mental
                                institution. Give him material that debunks his eckankar. Maybe eckankar is
                                driving some people nuts if they need to get aggressive about it. If he is
                                that forceful about it, I would worry about his mental state. Maybe you should
                                suggest he gets some counselling since he can't exercise reasonable control
                                about his beliefs.

                                How they justify the lies that Paul and others told is by saying it was
                                necessary to get eckankar established. These are things I was told as a new
                                eckist by older eckist. They know you are going to hear about the lies.
                                But if you are told another version by eckist first, you are more likely to
                                ignore anyone who tries to point out the lies. It is drummed into you that
                                eckankar has to be protected from those who just don't understand how great it
                                is.

                                ME: One becomes focused upon
                                how to explain questions away
                                without considering the premise
                                that those uniform explanations
                                are inaccurate and are designed
                                to be intentionally misleading.

                                I think you do become numb about what others say about eckankar when you are
                                in. There's a subtle suggestion that eckankar is always under attack by non
                                believers. I never heard anyone suggest aggression because of it but it was
                                suggested that caution was needed when discussing eckankar with outsiders.
                                What I got was that you don't talk about the org but it was okay to talk about
                                what the teachings did for you in your own life.

                                ME: Well, if you've ever been in an
                                ECK booth at a secular event that
                                was Not a Psychic Fair or a Body,
                                Mind, Spirit Expo or a New Age
                                event you might have a different
                                experience. I have. Think about
                                a 2 1/2 week State Fair with about
                                750,000 in attendance. Or, how
                                about an EK Booth at a street fair
                                across from a major university.
                                Anyway, we did come under verbal
                                attack from time-to-time. Of course
                                we really didn't care if they joined
                                or not... that was their karma...
                                we did our part by being there
                                if nothing else. That reminds me.
                                Remember how we were told that
                                when we stir up deep seated truth
                                that if will affect people negatively
                                because they can't handle it. The
                                same goes for what we're saying,
                                here, about Eckankar. The Truth
                                is being stirred up and ECkists
                                can't handle it and that's what
                                upsets them. Gotta Go... later!

                                Besides, you only learn the truth about eckankar in degrees. Newbies aren't
                                told how the whole thing works. They count on you getting hooked on the
                                written works of eckankar before you learn the truth about how things really
                                work.

                                I take it you never were an eckist and it seems you want to understand how
                                they can keep holding on to something based on lies. I think it is because
                                like with all spiritual teachings there is enough truth in what they read that
                                they think it is worth while. Paul compiled a lot of material that he gathered
                                from various sources. There is some good stuff there while there is also a lot
                                of contradictions. Some don't care that it was stolen material. It is like
                                they think Paul brought all the great teachings together for their benefit.
                                The biggest lie in eckankar is that eckankar is an ancient religion and instead
                                of Paul stealing from other religions, they believe that other religions evolved
                                from the ancient teachings of eckankar and only a select few can hear and see
                                that eckankar is the original and true path. Well, that is how it was spoon
                                fed to me anyway.

                                Now, they even advertise on TV. What a crock of crap. The great secret
                                teachings of eckankar being peddled on TV like just another info-mercial.
                                Membership must be way down. Klemp must be getting desperate. Need more
                                slaves to bring in more money and continue dragging in new dues paying
                                members.

                                Are eckankar members in general getting more aggressive about increasing their
                                numbers? I couldn't say since I don't have any contact with any eckist. That
                                would be interesting to know however.

                                I got to have one final dig at eckankar so here goes. I remember that
                                supposedly, the God man klemp has the ability to control the higher and lower
                                worlds,
                                so is it his fault that the whole world economy has gotten so bad? Why doesn't
                                he do
                                something about it? Has anyone heard what the great one has to say about it?

                                eckchains wrote:

                                At what point does deception become self-deception and then it becomes what is
                                really just an outright lie. What does it take to lie to yourself? Denial. But
                                denial pays a price at some point. At first there may be some discomfort or even
                                pain. So to deny must involve some level of numbing out, covering up, becoming
                                ever more deluded.
                                >
                                My brother was quite forceful in his attempts to get me involved in eckankar
                                and to be a member. He became quite nasty about it even and still is. Yes,
                                denial is the root of hypocrisy, an attempt to not feel the harm they do to
                                others and to themselves. (and then there are those who are just pathological
                                and do not feeling normal guilt and this does not keep them up at night or if it
                                does it is the fault of their victims somehow)
                                >
                                Truth to them is just TWISTED.
                                >
                                noneckster ; )



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