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Attachment vs. Detachment

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  • mishmisha9
    Okay, here s a thought/question. In analyzing and considering what HK has written in his latest Wisdom Note (LOL), do you think he has exhibited attachment or
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 29, 2005
      Okay, here's a thought/question. In analyzing and considering what HK
      has written in his latest Wisdom Note (LOL), do you think he has
      exhibited attachment or detachment in the way he treats eckists and
      or former eckists who have gone astray of the eck teachings? Does
      HK's actions and words demonstrate the Five Passions of the Mind or
      the Five Virtues?

      Mish

      p.s. to Jamie: Graham Forsythe has posted on TruthSeeker, HCS,
      Eckankar Truth and A.R.E. as FS, Graham or Graham Forsythe. He's easy
      to find on those sites. I'm not sure of other places he has posted or
      pseudonyms he uses. Hope this helps.
    • ewickings@aol.com
      In a message dated 9/30/2005 1:46:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, ... eckists and or former eckists who have gone astray of the eck teachings? It is an issue
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 30, 2005
        In a message dated 9/30/2005 1:46:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mishmisha9@... writes:
         
        >do you think he has exhibited attachment or detachment in the way he treats eckists and or former eckists who have gone astray of the eck teachings?
        It is an issue of control....  and the lack thereof.  A huge indicator of immaturity, maybe caused from the lack of control from various problems while growing up.     How many people do you know that jumps off a bridge, runs raked in an airport and calls it god realization?  And his members buy it hook line and *stinker*?  Think of the message this gives other members in need of mental health.  They can stop their meds because it is a test in trusting the Mahanta.  A journey to god realization.....
         
        I recall how my mom would state how difficult it was for Harold to not go crazy during his purification.  She and my step dad also could relate to the movie with that Crow actor in "A Beautiful Mind".  They found it to be similar to their experiences.....  wasn't this story about Schizophrenia?       
         
        Liz
      • prometheus_973
        Hi Mish, I thought I would list the 5 Passions of the Mind and the 5 Remedies (Virtures) as listed in The Path of the Masters. Twitch, of course did a
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 30, 2005
          Hi Mish,
          I thought I would list the 5 Passions of the Mind and the 5 Remedies
          (Virtures) as listed in "The Path of the Masters." Twitch, of course
          did a rewrite of these in order to Westernize these and make them
          more attainable for the householder or normal seeker.

          Page 362 "Passions and their Remedies" (Virtures)

          "KAM (LUST) Shil Chastity, continence.
          KRODH (ANGER) Kshama Forgiveness, tolerance.
          LOBH (GREED) Santosha Contentment.
          MOH (ATTACHMENT) Viveka Discrimination.
          Vairag Detachment.
          AHANKAR (EGO;PRIDE) Dinta Humility."

          **************************************************************
          Page 73 Eckankar Lexicon:
          The Five Passions of the Mind The Five Virtures

          "KAMA (LUST) VIVEKA (DISCRIMINATION)
          KRODHA (ANGER) KSHAMA (forgiveness, tolerance)
          LOBHA (GREED) SANTOSHA (contentment)
          MOHA (ATTACHMENT) VAIRAG (DETACHMENT)
          AHANKARA (VANITY) DINTA (HUMILITY)"

          **************************************************************

          So, one can see how Twitchell rearranged these and motified the
          spellings to suit his purpose in stealing this and making this his
          own. To call this inventiveness and creativity is on the same level
          as applauding the 9/11 terrorists for their inventiveness and
          creativity!

          Klemp does Not demonstrate the Virtures of Forgiveness, Tolerance,
          Humility, Contentment, or Detachment when addressing this former
          Fourth Initiate in Case #2 of the September 2005 "The Wisdom Notes!"
          Instead, Klemp places this chela in an even more submissive position
          as a warning to others! Klemp's Lust and Greed of/for Power and
          control comes through loud and strong-- as does his Anger and Vanity
          as well as an Attachment for all of these!

          Actually, I think that some Eckists will be shocked at how Klump
          handled the whole matter, but even more shocked that he was so
          arrogant (and clueless) as to share it in The Mystic World of
          Eckankar!

          Prometheus

          mishmisha wrote:
          > Okay, here's a thought/question. In analyzing and considering what
          HK has written in his latest Wisdom Note (LOL),

          do you think he has exhibited attachment or detachment in the way he
          treats eckists and or former eckists who have gone astray of the eck
          teachings?

          Does HK's actions and words demonstrate the Five Passions of the
          Mind or the Five Virtures?
        • prometheus_973
          Hello All, I thought that I would point out the differences between the Radasoami/Sant Mat version and the Eckankar version. Page 362 Passions and their
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 30, 2005
            Hello All,

            I thought that I would point out the differences between the
            Radasoami/Sant Mat version and the Eckankar version.

            Page 362 Passions and their Remedies (Virtures):


            KAM(LUST)...*[Shil]...Chastity, continence

            KRODH(ANGER)...[Kshama]...Forgiveness, tolerance

            LOBH(GREED)...[Santosha]...Contentment

            MOH(ATTACHMENT)...*[Viveka]...Discrimination AND
            [Vairag]...Detachment

            AHANKAR (EGO; PRIDE)...[Dinta]...Humility

            **************************************************************
            Page 73 Eckankar Lexicon
            The Five Passions of the Mind...The Five Virtures:


            KAMA(LUST)...*[VIVEKA]...DISCRIMINATION

            KRODHA(ANGER)...[KSHAMA]...forgiveness, tolerance

            LOBHA(GREED)...[SANTOSHA]...contentment

            MOHA(ATTACHMENT)...[VAIRAG]...DETACHMENT

            AHANKARA(VANITY)...[DINTA]...HUMILITY

            **************************************************************
            So, Twitchell changed the Virtue for LUST! He took the first remedy
            (of two) listed for Attachment, [Viveka] Discrimination, from "Path"
            and switched it with the remedy or virture of *[Shil] Chastity and
            continence!

            This is why Eckists find it so difficult to recall and match up the
            Five Passions to the Five Virtues! But, isn't it also strange that
            the negative passions are recalled easier than the positive virtures!

            One can also see where Twitchell added the letter "A" to the Hindi
            words for the passions, but kept the Hindi words for the virtues.

            Prometheus
          • jjamie1977
            ... thanks so much, mish. this is exactly the info i needed. i ve tried and tried to find a copy (even an e copy) of in the many hands of god . no luck
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 1, 2005
              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
              <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
              > Okay, here's a thought/question. In analyzing and considering what HK
              > has written in his latest Wisdom Note (LOL), do you think he has
              > exhibited attachment or detachment in the way he treats eckists and
              > or former eckists who have gone astray of the eck teachings? Does
              > HK's actions and words demonstrate the Five Passions of the Mind or
              > the Five Virtues?
              >
              > Mish
              >
              > p.s. to Jamie: Graham Forsythe has posted on TruthSeeker, HCS,
              > Eckankar Truth and A.R.E. as FS, Graham or Graham Forsythe. He's easy
              > to find on those sites. I'm not sure of other places he has posted or
              > pseudonyms he uses. Hope this helps.

              --------------------------------------------------
              thanks so much, mish. this is exactly the info i needed. i've tried and
              tried to find a copy (even an e copy) of "in the many hands of god". no
              luck whatsoever.

              jamie...
              ----------------------------------------
            • l2eigh
              Hi Prometheus: The passions and virtues are one of the reasons why Eckankar fails. It s all pillar or post with no moderation. The Five Wisdoms on the other
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 1, 2005
                Hi Prometheus:
                The passions and virtues are one of the reasons why
                Eckankar fails. It's all pillar or post with no moderation. The Five
                Wisdoms on the other hand are moderation and they do work.
                The Five wisdoms are; the Wisdom that like a mirror
                reflects perceptions, the Wisdom acquired by Contemplation, which
                apprehends the fundamental identity in all things, the Wisdom that
                discerns, differentiates and classifies things according to their
                particular properties, the Wisdom applied to works, assuring their
                success, the universal Wisdom which penetrates everything, detects
                the elements of which things are formed, and then the elements which
                constitute each of those first detected elements, and so ad
                infinitum, and by the virtue of this process destroys the illusion of
                the permanent reality of form and personality.

                If you can't pick up on them anywhere else, you can
                find these in the novel Mipam by Lama Yongden, published in 1938. Now
                in reprint by Shambala, I think.
                Lama Yongden was an interesting guy, and the "adopted
                son" of Alexandra David-Neel. *Quite* an interesting woman.

                Leigh

                -- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                > Hello All,
                >
                > I thought that I would point out the differences between the
                > Radasoami/Sant Mat version and the Eckankar version.
                >
                > Page 362 Passions and their Remedies (Virtures):
                >
                >
                > KAMð )...*[Shil]...Chastity, continence
                >
                > KRODH(ANGER)...[Kshama]...Forgiveness, tolerance
                >
                > LOBH(GREED)...[Santosha]...Contentment
                >
                > MOH(ATTACHMENT)...*[Viveka]...Discrimination AND
                > [Vairag]...Detachment
                >
                > AHANKAR (EGO; PRIDE)...[Dinta]...Humility
                >
                > **************************************************************
                > Page 73 Eckankar Lexicon
                > The Five Passions of the Mind...The Five Virtures:
                >
                >
                > KAMAð )...*[VIVEKA]...DISCRIMINATION
                >
                > KRODHA(ANGER)...[KSHAMA]...forgiveness, tolerance
                >
                > LOBHA(GREED)...[SANTOSHA]...contentment
                >
                > MOHA(ATTACHMENT)...[VAIRAG]...DETACHMENT
                >
                > AHANKARA(VANITY)...[DINTA]...HUMILITY
                >
                > **************************************************************
                > So, Twitchell changed the Virtue for ! He took the first remedy
                > (of two) listed for Attachment, [Viveka] Discrimination,
                from "Path"
                > and switched it with the remedy or virture of *[Shil] Chastity and
                > continence!
                >
                > This is why Eckists find it so difficult to recall and match up the
                > Five Passions to the Five Virtues! But, isn't it also strange that
                > the negative passions are recalled easier than the positive
                virtures!
                >
                > One can also see where Twitchell added the letter "A" to the Hindi
                > words for the passions, but kept the Hindi words for the virtues.
                >
                > Prometheus
              • prometheus_973
                Hi Leigh, Thanks for posting the Five Wisdoms and their source. They are very interesting and insightful! Prometheus ... The passions and virtues are one of
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 1, 2005
                  Hi Leigh,
                  Thanks for posting the Five Wisdoms and their source. They are very
                  interesting and insightful!

                  Prometheus

                  lgrif wrote:
                  > Hi Prometheus:
                  The passions and virtues are one of the reasons why
                  Eckankar fails. It's all pillar or post with no moderation. The Five
                  Wisdoms on the other hand are moderation and they do work.

                  The Five wisdoms are;

                  the Wisdom that like a mirror reflects perceptions,

                  the Wisdom acquired by Contemplation, which apprehends the
                  fundamental identity in all things,

                  the Wisdom that discerns, differentiates and classifies things
                  according to their particular properties,

                  the Wisdom applied to works, assuring their success,

                  the universal Wisdom which penetrates everything, detects the
                  elements of which things are formed,

                  and then the elements which constitute each of those first detected
                  elements, and so ad infinitum, and by the virtue of this process
                  destroys the illusion of the permanent reality of form and
                  personality.

                  If you can't pick up on them anywhere else, you can find these in
                  the novel Mipam by Lama Yongden, published in 1938. Now in reprint
                  by Shambala, I think. Lama Yongden was an interesting guy, and
                  the "adopted son" of Alexandra David-Neel. *Quite* an interesting
                  woman.

                  Leigh
                  >
                  > -- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  > <prometheus_973@y...> wrote:
                  > > Hello All,
                  > >
                  > > I thought that I would point out the differences between the
                  > > Radasoami/Sant Mat version and the Eckankar version.

                  > >The Path of the Masters by Julian P. Johnson
                  > >Page 362 Passions and their Remedies (Virtures):
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > KAM (LUST)...*[Shil]...Chastity, continence
                  > >
                  > > KRODH (ANGER)...[Kshama]...Forgiveness, tolerance
                  > >
                  > > LOBH (GREED)...[Santosha]...Contentment
                  > >
                  > > MOH (ATTACHMENT)...*[Viveka]...Discrimination AND
                  > > [Vairag]...Detachment
                  > >
                  > > AHANKAR (EGO; PRIDE)...[Dinta]...Humility
                  > >
                  > > **************************************************************
                  > > Page 73 Eckankar Lexicon
                  > > The Five Passions of the Mind...The Five Virtures:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > KAMA (LUST)...*[VIVEKA]...DISCRIMINATION
                  > >
                  > > KRODHA (ANGER)...[KSHAMA]...forgiveness, tolerance
                  > >
                  > > LOBHA (GREED)...[SANTOSHA]...contentment
                  > >
                  > > MOHA (ATTACHMENT)...[VAIRAG]...DETACHMENT
                  > >
                  > > AHANKARA (VANITY)...[DINTA]...HUMILITY
                  > >
                  > > **************************************************************
                  > > So, Twitchell changed the Virtues or Remedies for LUST and
                  ATTACHMENT! He took the first Remedy (of two) listed for Attachment,
                  [Viveka] Discrimination, from "Path" and switched it with the remedy
                  or virture of *[Shil] Chastity and continence! [SHIL] and CHASTITY
                  and CONTINENCE were completely eliminated!

                  > > This is why Eckists find it so difficult to recall and match up
                  the Five Passions to the Five Virtues! But, isn't it also strange
                  that the negative passions are recalled easier by Eckists than the
                  positive virtures!

                  > > One can also see where Twitchell added the letter "A" to the
                  Hindi words for the passions, but kept the Hindi words for the
                  virtues.

                  > > Prometheus
                • truthdecider
                  Hey Jamie, I sent you some info on Graham. Due to the nature of the info, I sent it to you privately at your yahoo email address that s listed for you on here
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 2, 2005
                    Hey Jamie,

                    I sent you some info on Graham. Due to the nature of the info, I
                    sent it to you privately at your yahoo email address that's listed for
                    you on here on the ESA board. Did you receive the info?

                    Truthdecider


                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "jjamie1977"
                    <jjamie1977@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "mishmisha9"
                    > <mishmisha9@y...> wrote:
                    > > Okay, here's a thought/question. In analyzing and considering what HK
                    > > has written in his latest Wisdom Note (LOL), do you think he has
                    > > exhibited attachment or detachment in the way he treats eckists and
                    > > or former eckists who have gone astray of the eck teachings? Does
                    > > HK's actions and words demonstrate the Five Passions of the Mind or
                    > > the Five Virtues?
                    > >
                    > > Mish
                    > >
                    > > p.s. to Jamie: Graham Forsythe has posted on TruthSeeker, HCS,
                    > > Eckankar Truth and A.R.E. as FS, Graham or Graham Forsythe. He's easy
                    > > to find on those sites. I'm not sure of other places he has posted or
                    > > pseudonyms he uses. Hope this helps.
                    >
                    > --------------------------------------------------
                    > thanks so much, mish. this is exactly the info i needed. i've tried and
                    > tried to find a copy (even an e copy) of "in the many hands of god". no
                    > luck whatsoever.
                    >
                    > jamie...
                    > ----------------------------------------
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hi All, Twitchell created Eckankar based on the teachings of other religions that Eckankar views as 4th (Mental) Plane religions. I was talking to an Eckist
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 6, 2005
                      Hi All,

                      Twitchell created Eckankar based on the teachings of other religions
                      that Eckankar views as 4th (Mental) Plane religions.

                      I was talking to an Eckist friend a few months ago and she told me
                      that she didn't have a problem with Twitchell's plagiarisms and with
                      him borrowing things from other religions. She said that we all
                      borrow and use things from various sources and Twitchell was no
                      different. Interesting way to create a religion, but what made a
                      hodge-podge of these sources into the "highest teaching" in all of
                      the universes of SUGMAD? LOL!

                      I started thinking about this recently and thought about how
                      Eckankar views Jesus and his "Father" (God). Jesus was supposedly
                      the incarnation of God who resides on either the *2nd Astral or 4th
                      Mental Plane. Whereas... Twitchell, Gross, and Klemp claimed to be
                      the Mahanta incarnations of SUGMAD and 14th Plane or higher!
                      However, why are so many of the Eck teachings based on 4th Plane
                      religions when Klemp claims to be so much "higher" in consciousness?
                      [*Eckankar views some religions that it judges emotional (Astral) as
                      being 2nd Plane religions.]

                      The Five Passions of the Mind and Five Virtures are altered for the
                      western spiritual seeker and "borrowed" by Twitchell for use as part
                      of the Eckankar teachings. This is just one example, of duplication,
                      that Twitchell used to create Eckankar. The spin that is put on this
                      is that these other religions got this from the Eck or from
                      Eckankar. But, this is just more of the flip-flop spin and deception
                      that Twitchell began to use and that Klemp has continued.

                      This example shows just one of the Fourth Plane connections that
                      Eckankar has with Radasoami and Sant Mat.

                      "The Path of the Masters" by Julian P. Johnson
                      Page 362 Passions and their Remedies (Virtures):


                      KAM (LUST)...*[Shil]...Chastity, continence

                      KRODH (ANGER)...[Kshama]...Forgiveness, tolerance

                      LOBH (GREED)...[Santosha]...Contentment

                      MOH (ATTACHMENT)...*[Viveka]...Discrimination AND
                      [Vairag]...Detachment

                      AHANKAR (EGO; PRIDE)...[Dinta]...Humility

                      **************************************************************
                      Page 73 Eckankar Lexicon
                      The Five Passions of the Mind...The Five Virtures:


                      KAMA (LUST)...*[VIVEKA]...DISCRIMINATION

                      KRODHA (ANGER)...[KSHAMA]...forgiveness, tolerance

                      LOBHA (GREED)...[SANTOSHA]...contentment

                      MOHA (ATTACHMENT)...[VAIRAG]...DETACHMENT

                      AHANKARA (VANITY)...[DINTA]...HUMILITY

                      *Twitchell changed the remedy or virture for LUST to fit the western
                      seeker. Twitch took the first of two remedies for ATTACHMENT, which
                      was DISCRIMINATION, and uses this for the virture for LUST. Chastity
                      and continence were completely eliminated!

                      Prometheus
                      p.s. Isn't it interesting that in the 1966 Illuminated Way Letters
                      that Twitchell never mentions Rebazar Tarzs or the Mahanta. Yet,
                      Twitchell is supposedly the L.E.M. and at least a 12th Initiate! Who
                      initiated him? He was still corresponding with Kirpal Singh during
                      this time. Actually, the Mahanta was never mentioned by P.T. until
                      1969!
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