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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: karma

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  • Janice Pfeiffer
    There has to be a reason why some of us are sensitive to the sufferings of others and some aren t.  There has to be a reason why some of us have a conscience
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 12, 2012
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      There has to be a reason why some of us are sensitive to the sufferings of others and some aren't.  There has to be a reason why some of us have a conscience about how we treat others and some don't.  Karma could explain that.  It could be that sensitivity to what is considered wrong doing comes about when we have experienced wrong doing from both sides and inwardly feel the wrongness of being hurtful toward others.  The concept of karma depends on the concept of reincarnation.
       
      I had reason to believe in past lives before I was ever an eckist.  I guess I expected eckankar to be of assistance in delving into problems I might have that stemmed from past lives.  It wasn't.  Eckankar consumes an individual with eck duties to the point that further growth past what one has attained pre eckankar just doesn't happen.  For all their talk of spiritual freedom, it is really spiritual enslavement to the point that one is made to feel you will never ever be rid of the lem even in future lives.  If anything eckankar results in arrested spiritual growth. 
       
      I can not speak really about the merits surrounding the concept of karma in depth.  But I  have to believe that our purpose for rebirth has reason.  I tend to think that it is more a matter of learning than retribution for past wrongs.  At the same time, I believe that Klemp and his predecessors are creating a great wrong by misleading so many people and side tracking so many spiritually.  It certainly must be something that has to be corrected since they are knowingly using the time and resources of others for their on self gratification. 
       
      After what I experienced in eckankar, I only have one true wish concerning such things.  That being; may I never think I am the master of any people or individual.  I believe it is the gravest wrong of all.

      --- On Wed, 7/11/12, harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...> wrote:

      From: harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: karma
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2012, 11:05 PM

       
      Like so many other ideas, Karma doesn't hold water and seems to be a bastardized explanation of the way life works. It seems to have its origins in mythology and you'd need to read Joseph Campbell for an informed and intelligent look at the idea.

      Of course, Eckankar, as a notorious bullshit organization, goes to town with the karma idea. It's just another in a series of things people can latch onto by believing that their own mental impressions and fantasies have root in reality.

      I was recently watching a documentary on the Buddha for the third time. Curiously, Siddharta had an epiphany that life/nature goes through a cycle of being born, living, experiencing old age then decline, then at last dying. In the world of nature, rebirth is the next round of life that appears. This in no way suggests it's the same "soul" that reappears, but rather it's the way life works, in a cycle. And Siddharta realized that he was part of this cycle and there was no reason to keep trying to escape it. Instead he realized it's important to embrace life and these realities. All else is self-deceit. The illusion is that life and all of its problems has a basis in longevity and real importance. To paraphrase the Dalai Llama, being illusory doesn't mean it's not real, but rather its importance is illusory.

      Eckankar is all about manipulation of people, facts and world teachings. If Harold, Twitch or any of the other Disney characters had an conscience, they would be ashamed of what they do to people in the way of this manipulation.

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > The jury is still out for
      > me. Now, as far as all of
      > those different types of
      > karma that's different....
      > it's even more difficult
      > to see or buy into since
      > experts, like Twit and Klemp,
      > are mostly conmen. However,
      > buying into the cause and
      > effect of daily karma is
      > more believable and is
      > something people can
      > see or at least understand
      > at times. At other times
      > it doesn't equate.
      >
      > Basically, we're born,
      > we live, we die. All matter
      > decomposes and changes
      > its form within a set time
      > frame. But, these experiences
      > and memories of days,
      > months, and years are
      > all tied together in a
      > continuous Now because,
      > in reality, time is an illusion.
      >
      > The how and why of our
      > lives sometimes seems
      > within our awareness and
      > control, to a degree, but
      > mostly it's a crap shoot
      > that relies upon the fate
      > of our path via our conscious
      > and unconscious decisions.
      > Our choices and attitudes
      > either help or hinder us
      > (delay us) in achieving
      > what we desire most, IMO,
      > happiness and contentment
      > and some knowledge of
      > the "How" and "Why."
      >
      > With most people, however,
      > we've rationalized and deluded
      > ourselves to believe what we
      > and others have come to conveniently
      > think, sell, or believe and have
      > been convinced of what we need
      > and desire.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      > "Diana Stanley" wrote:
      > >
      > > I do'nt believe in Karma!
      > > diana
      > >
      >

    • Diana Stanley
      I belive our bodies and the mindstuff can be recyled and use to create a new form for Spirit to utalize but our personality is not reincarnated The personality
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 13, 2012
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        I belive our bodies and the mindstuff can be recyled and use to create a new form for Spirit to utalize but our personality is not reincarnated The personality is created by our personal experience in this life. It doesn't cross over to another life. A new personality is created every time Spitit asumes a physical form. Diana


        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > The jury is still out for
        > me. Now, as far as all of
        > those different types of
        > karma that's different....
        > it's even more difficult
        > to see or buy into since
        > experts, like Twit and Klemp,
        > are mostly conmen. However,
        > buying into the cause and
        > effect of daily karma is
        > more believable and is
        > something people can
        > see or at least understand
        > at times. At other times
        > it doesn't equate.
        >
        > Basically, we're born,
        > we live, we die. All matter
        > decomposes and changes
        > its form within a set time
        > frame. But, these experiences
        > and memories of days,
        > months, and years are
        > all tied together in a
        > continuous Now because,
        > in reality, time is an illusion.
        >
        > The how and why of our
        > lives sometimes seems
        > within our awareness and
        > control, to a degree, but
        > mostly it's a crap shoot
        > that relies upon the fate
        > of our path via our conscious
        > and unconscious decisions.
        > Our choices and attitudes
        > either help or hinder us
        > (delay us) in achieving
        > what we desire most, IMO,
        > happiness and contentment
        > and some knowledge of
        > the "How" and "Why."
        >
        > With most people, however,
        > we've rationalized and deluded
        > ourselves to believe what we
        > and others have come to conveniently
        > think, sell, or believe and have
        > been convinced of what we need
        > and desire.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > "Diana Stanley" wrote:
        > >
        > > I do'nt believe in Karma!
        > > diana
        > >
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Diana, That s interesting. IMO we all have ancestral DNA that brings forth choices that help or hinder with our spiritual evolution and this is how our
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 14, 2012
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          Hello Diana,
          That's interesting. IMO we all
          have ancestral DNA that brings
          forth choices that help or hinder
          with our "spiritual" evolution
          and this is how our bodies and
          mindstuff are recreated. I'm
          thinking that some DNA associated
          with personality is also passed
          on. Plus, the nurture aspect is
          where and how portions of the
          personality are newly formed
          and where heretical portions
          are stimulated. Thus, when we
          see a person who has a personality
          completely different from close
          family members it could be that
          this is simply a multi-generational
          jump. Of course there are also
          physical defects and changes
          due to environmental issues,
          etc. that will affect us as well.
          Whether this could be called
          karma might be too simple and
          passive of an explanation that
          prevents more investigation,
          involvement and solutions.

          The thing is, the mind can be
          extremely powerful but all of
          us never even come close to the
          potential. Even Hawkings and
          Einstein only use(d) about 11%
          of the brain's potential.

          It does make one wonder about
          "consciousness." Is the intellect
          associated with consciousness
          in some way? Perhaps and to
          a degree, however, I'm sure that
          we know of selfish or cruel people
          who have/had great intellects.
          So, what went wrong? Is this
          a learned or physical defect
          or a choice, or both? The mind
          is powerful and can rationalize,
          dream, imagine, pretend, can
          become fearful, can become
          jealous, hateful, and is easily
          distracted from a higher potential
          i.e. Self-Mastery, Self-Responsibility
          and Spiritual Freedom. Although,
          what these terms actually mean
          is for one to become their own
          Master via their own private
          "religion" with values, partially,
          gleaned from the insights of
          others versus others subjective
          experiences. Life is a journey
          of rediscovering daily balance
          and meaning that encompasses
          a lifetime.

          Spirit and Soul are another
          matter. Maybe Soul is actually
          like being "plugged into" the
          Universal Mind (all minds)
          and generally by limitations
          like phone wire is to wireless
          or fiberoptic. But, is Spirit merely
          the Universal Mind's potential?

          And GOD? Maybe that's the
          original source which caused
          and determined our human
          split from that of other animals?
        • Janice Pfeiffer
          Well written Prometheus, thank you for your insights ... From: prometheus_973 Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: karma To:
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 14, 2012
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            Well written Prometheus, thank you for your insights

            --- On Sat, 7/14/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: karma
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, July 14, 2012, 6:39 PM

             
            Hello Diana,
            That's interesting. IMO we all
            have ancestral DNA that brings
            forth choices that help or hinder
            with our "spiritual" evolution
            and this is how our bodies and
            mindstuff are recreated. I'm
            thinking that some DNA associated
            with personality is also passed
            on. Plus, the nurture aspect is
            where and how portions of the
            personality are newly formed
            and where heretical portions
            are stimulated. Thus, when we
            see a person who has a personality
            completely different from close
            family members it could be that
            this is simply a multi-generational
            jump. Of course there are also
            physical defects and changes
            due to environmental issues,
            etc. that will affect us as well.
            Whether this could be called
            karma might be too simple and
            passive of an explanation that
            prevents more investigation,
            involvement and solutions.

            The thing is, the mind can be
            extremely powerful but all of
            us never even come close to the
            potential. Even Hawkings and
            Einstein only use(d) about 11%
            of the brain's potential.

            It does make one wonder about
            "consciousness." Is the intellect
            associated with consciousness
            in some way? Perhaps and to
            a degree, however, I'm sure that
            we know of selfish or cruel people
            who have/had great intellects.
            So, what went wrong? Is this
            a learned or physical defect
            or a choice, or both? The mind
            is powerful and can rationalize,
            dream, imagine, pretend, can
            become fearful, can become
            jealous, hateful, and is easily
            distracted from a higher potential
            i.e. Self-Mastery, Self-Responsibility
            and Spiritual Freedom. Although,
            what these terms actually mean
            is for one to become their own
            Master via their own private
            "religion" with values, partially,
            gleaned from the insights of
            others versus others subjective
            experiences. Life is a journey
            of rediscovering daily balance
            and meaning that encompasses
            a lifetime.

            Spirit and Soul are another
            matter. Maybe Soul is actually
            like being "plugged into" the
            Universal Mind (all minds)
            and generally by limitations
            like phone wire is to wireless
            or fiberoptic. But, is Spirit merely
            the Universal Mind's potential?

            And GOD? Maybe that's the
            original source which caused
            and determined our human
            split from that of other animals?

          • prometheus_973
            Hello Harrison, Thanks! I enjoyed reading your comments. That s an interesting paraphrase of the Dali Llama: being illusory doesn t mean it s not real, but
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 14, 2012
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              Hello Harrison,
              Thanks! I enjoyed reading your
              comments. That's an interesting
              paraphrase of the Dali Llama:
              "being illusory doesn't mean it's
              not real, but rather its importance
              is illusory.

              It's quite a play on words which
              Buddhism does in order to get
              people to think with depth via
              creative introspection.

              However, I don't really agree with
              the second part (the twist) of the
              statement. To me, "it's importance"
              is Not Always "illusionary" due to
              the illusion's powerful mental
              potential to manifest and become
              "real" and to create circumstances
              that would end our physical existence
              or well being. For me, passiveness
              is self-deceit and non-attachment
              is simply a coping/survival technique
              (stress reducer) designed for the
              mind.

              However, various natural stress
              reducers do have the potential
              to alter our perspectives and to
              give us real insights into our individual
              Real Selves and that of this Real
              Life Experience and Purpose.

              Maybe, we are simply taking another
              step for the future development,
              or decline, of the Human Race and
              towards its full Mental potential.
              That's our part and our involvement
              with what we can call the Universal
              Mind's Potential. Perhaps, too, we
              are being guided, unconsciously,
              by this innate potential via video
              games and other imaginative and
              technological advances.

              Prometheus


              "harrisonferrel" wrote:
              Like so many other ideas, Karma doesn't hold water and seems to be a bastardized
              explanation of the way life works. It seems to have its origins in mythology and
              you'd need to read Joseph Campbell for an informed and intelligent look at the
              idea.

              Of course, Eckankar, as a notorious bullshit organization, goes to town with the
              karma idea. It's just another in a series of things people can latch onto by
              believing that their own mental impressions and fantasies have root in reality.

              I was recently watching a documentary on the Buddha for the third time.
              Curiously, Siddharta had an epiphany that life/nature goes through a cycle of
              being born, living, experiencing old age then decline, then at last dying. In
              the world of nature, rebirth is the next round of life that appears. This in no
              way suggests it's the same "soul" that reappears, but rather it's the way life
              works, in a cycle. And Siddharta realized that he was part of this cycle and
              there was no reason to keep trying to escape it. Instead he realized it's
              important to embrace life and these realities. All else is self-deceit. The
              illusion is that life and all of its problems has a basis in longevity and real
              importance. To paraphrase the Dalai Llama, being illusory doesn't mean it's not
              real, but rather its importance is illusory.

              Eckankar is all about manipulation of people, facts and world teachings. If
              Harold, Twitch or any of the other Disney characters had an conscience, they
              would be ashamed of what they do to people in the way of this manipulation.
            • postekcon
              Karma as taught by Ekult is very skewed and not the big picture ! Should one choose to believe in karma, it maybe better understood within contexts of
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 25, 2012
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                Karma as taught by Ekult is very skewed and not the 'big picture'!
                Should one choose to believe in karma, it maybe better understood within contexts of 'randomity' and 'quantum' theories.

                For me the jury is out.
                -Postekcon


                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Harrison,
                > Thanks! I enjoyed reading your
                > comments. That's an interesting
                > paraphrase of the Dali Llama:
                > "being illusory doesn't mean it's
                > not real, but rather its importance
                > is illusory.
                >
                > It's quite a play on words which
                > Buddhism does in order to get
                > people to think with depth via
                > creative introspection.
                >
                > However, I don't really agree with
                > the second part (the twist) of the
                > statement. To me, "it's importance"
                > is Not Always "illusionary" due to
                > the illusion's powerful mental
                > potential to manifest and become
                > "real" and to create circumstances
                > that would end our physical existence
                > or well being. For me, passiveness
                > is self-deceit and non-attachment
                > is simply a coping/survival technique
                > (stress reducer) designed for the
                > mind.
                >
                > However, various natural stress
                > reducers do have the potential
                > to alter our perspectives and to
                > give us real insights into our individual
                > Real Selves and that of this Real
                > Life Experience and Purpose.
                >
                > Maybe, we are simply taking another
                > step for the future development,
                > or decline, of the Human Race and
                > towards its full Mental potential.
                > That's our part and our involvement
                > with what we can call the Universal
                > Mind's Potential. Perhaps, too, we
                > are being guided, unconsciously,
                > by this innate potential via video
                > games and other imaginative and
                > technological advances.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > "harrisonferrel" wrote:
                > Like so many other ideas, Karma doesn't hold water and seems to be a bastardized
                > explanation of the way life works. It seems to have its origins in mythology and
                > you'd need to read Joseph Campbell for an informed and intelligent look at the
                > idea.
                >
                > Of course, Eckankar, as a notorious bullshit organization, goes to town with the
                > karma idea. It's just another in a series of things people can latch onto by
                > believing that their own mental impressions and fantasies have root in reality.
                >
                > I was recently watching a documentary on the Buddha for the third time.
                > Curiously, Siddharta had an epiphany that life/nature goes through a cycle of
                > being born, living, experiencing old age then decline, then at last dying. In
                > the world of nature, rebirth is the next round of life that appears. This in no
                > way suggests it's the same "soul" that reappears, but rather it's the way life
                > works, in a cycle. And Siddharta realized that he was part of this cycle and
                > there was no reason to keep trying to escape it. Instead he realized it's
                > important to embrace life and these realities. All else is self-deceit. The
                > illusion is that life and all of its problems has a basis in longevity and real
                > importance. To paraphrase the Dalai Llama, being illusory doesn't mean it's not
                > real, but rather its importance is illusory.
                >
                > Eckankar is all about manipulation of people, facts and world teachings. If
                > Harold, Twitch or any of the other Disney characters had an conscience, they
                > would be ashamed of what they do to people in the way of this manipulation.
                >
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