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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A Delusional Conman?

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  • Janice Pfeiffer
    I had already seen what a room full of psychics could produce before I became an eckist.   Eckist are busy reinforcing what the lem says so then they all
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 12 8:40 PM
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      I had already seen what a room full of psychics could produce before I became an eckist.   Eckist are busy reinforcing what the lem says so then they all are convinced it is so.  In my early days of eckankar I dreamed about the lem and other masters. Marvelous things did I see in my dreams.  I believe that was because I was influenced by what I read and what other eckist said.  I wanted to believe.  Near the end of my days in eckankar, my dreams concerning these eckist and the eck masters got really distorted.  They and the masters were doing weird and sometimes terrible things in my dreams.  As I fell away more and more, the worse my dreams about eckankar became.  The dreams about such things stopped all together once I was out.  I was no longer influenced by it. 
       
      Klemp is probably still just as delusional as the day he stripped in public and was locked up for it.  He believes he is the true lem.  From everything I have read the only real strong trait he has is that he is intolerant of other people.  This is then passed off as his being overly susceptible to things because of his great burden of carrying all those karma ridden chelas. 
       
       Klemp is uninspiring as a leader and for a god man seems to have no inclination toward creativity.  He like Paul, takes from any source he can and since he was a long term Lutheran, he relies on that experience the most. 
       
      In short, I believe that eckist suffer from mass hypnosis because of their strong belief in the all knowing powers of their dull witted lem.  How else could you explain why so many would find some one so nondescript to be worthy of that kind of devotion.  They see what they want to see. 

      --- On Wed, 7/11/12, harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...> wrote:

      From: harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A Delusional Conman?
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2012, 11:11 PM

       
      When I first got out of eckankar many years ago I too contemplated (forgive the term) whether Klemp was deluded, a nutjob or some other kind of lunatic. My conclusion is this: He is full of shit, knows he is full of shit and many of his followers knows he is full of shit. Most eckists think he's god incarnate. I have to imagine he could be a sociopath because if he had a conscience he would clearly have a difficult time living with himself for years on end spewing the same outrageous, absurd lies. He threatens people, writes dribble, creates a "lexicon" by merely changing the definitions of real words to suit his cult, and he imparts blessings on people. Think about it. It takes a nutjob to do this sort of thing.

      I only wished that I trusted my instincts before I ever got involved in eckankar more than 20 years ago after reading Twitchell's nonsense and hearing his illiterate, backwoods rhetoric. This was before I even knew there was a Harold Klemp.

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Etznab and All,
      > Thanks for the post.
      > It was right on! I'm
      > beginning to think
      > that Klemp might be
      > schizophrenic along
      > with a few other psychosis.
      >
      > For one thing, it's clear
      > that Klemp and his inner
      > circle are aware that he's
      > not in control of anyone
      > or anything except his
      > own followers, and that's
      > limited too. The effects of
      > what HK says works like
      > Voo Doo. It takes a true
      > believer to give his words
      > power. Thus, Klemp is
      > more the carnival hypnotist
      > as he programs via repeated
      > suggestions in order to have
      > his puppets act, talk, and
      > believe in a certain way.
      > ECKists are like chickens
      > in a hen house while HK is
      > the fox guarding it in their
      > dreams.
      >
      > IMO, half of Klemp knows
      > he's a fraud and the other
      > half is thinking that fate
      > has given him some magical
      > powers... and to be a messenger
      > of hope and for the good
      > of mankind. Basically, he's
      > scamming ECKists out of
      > their time and money like
      > other religious leaders are
      > doing with their followers.
      > And, there are probably
      > the same proportion of
      > EKists who are hypocrites
      > and heretics as with all
      > religions. This doesn't make
      > any ECKist "special" only
      > average. But, their egos
      > need to feel "special" in
      > order to believe all the lies!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > etznab wrote:
      > Apparently, a chief source for the Eckankar teachings has come from
      > imagination. Even since the beginning. And it looks this way still.
      >
      > Some things can be checked and some writings Paul Twitchell compiled /
      > copied / paraphrased from. However, imagination has always been a
      > source for what Eckankar and Eckists share.
      >
      > If what comes from "Eck Masters" on the inner is "real" I say it is
      > most likely real because people in their imaginations made it real.
      > Imaginations fed by stories concocted by people before them by
      > imagination and / or concocted deliberately for some other purposes.
      >
      > Imagination has and can bring many amazing things. Including many
      > inventions. So maybe it's better to call imagination the source of so
      > many spiritual teachings and not necessarily some largely anonymous
      > lineage, league, council, etc. of Masters hiding out in the background
      > of physical paintings, drawings and books?
      >
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      >
      > It was a Bait and Switch
      > when most long-time EKists
      > were fooled. We were told
      > EKankar was a "Spiritual
      > Path" and not really a religion,
      > but we were told Twitchell
      > needed to play-the-game
      > to protect the outer org
      > and for the tax free benefits
      > in order for the EK teachings
      > to survive. Years after his
      > death we found out that
      > Twitchell lied about everything
      > and had been a liar for all
      > his life.
      >
      > Then, later, Klemp came
      > on the scene by tricking
      > Gross into thinking he could
      > be trusted and that there was
      > room at the top for two ECK
      > Masters. This is when the
      > big changes in direction took
      > place and ECKankar became
      > an "official religion" for all
      > ECKists to see and to promote.
      > And, it's when Klemp began
      > to introduce his dogmatic
      > leanings toward the Lutheran
      > Church with quotes from
      > the distorted King James
      > version of the Bible.
      >
      > Now, HK is still looking for
      > volunteers to bring in more
      > money. He'll say things like,
      > "You, as ECKists, are very
      > special messengers of the
      > Mahanta." Yet, Klemp can't
      > deliver because he's not a
      > God nor a Master. Feeling
      > "special" is a trap. It's pretend!
      >
      > ECKists are asked to imagine
      > and dream and convince them-
      > selves that reality is not this
      > life... it's more, therefore,
      > don't look here, look over
      > there! But, in the mean time,
      > EKists need to sell more books
      > and CDs/DVDs and all sorts
      > of crap which make the same
      > promises as before, but has
      > new wrappings and testimonials.
      > Klemp's KAL trap is one of
      > distraction and to keep EKies
      > busy so they don't have time
      > to think about anything except
      > ECKankar.
      >
      > Plus, the reasons for why
      > Klemp is pushing for ECKists
      > to volunteer so much and
      > read his books is easy to
      > understand once it is pointed
      > out:
      >
      > 1. His ego needs the accolades.
      > HK has to live up to his listing
      > in "The International Who's
      > Who of Intellectuals" which
      > he paid for!
      >
      > 2. He has to impress the
      > other preachers and holy
      > men, not only in the Chanhassen/
      > Minneapolis area, around
      > the world, as well as, his
      > low/loyal servants/followers.
      >
      > 3. Klemp receives 50%
      > royalties on everything with
      > his name on it, therefore,
      > he needs to push out more
      > and more merchandise.
      >
      > 4. I'm thinking that Klemp
      > wants to set some kind of
      > a record for writing the most
      > "books." His followers will
      > feel proud of him, he will
      > feel proud, and it gives a
      > false sense of validation
      > for what he's writing. Plus,
      > EKists will buy his redundant
      > newly packaged merchandise
      > adding money to his pockets
      > while taking money from them.
      > But, they're paying to feel
      > good, so, if not him it would
      > be something/someone else...
      > like family.
      >
      > 5. His books manipulate and
      > hypnotize his followers. It
      > keeps them living in delusion.
      >
      > 6. It's a way to recruit more
      > people which means more
      > volunteers and more money.
      > Remember, Klemp has said
      > "there's no free lunch in
      > Eckankar."
      >
      > Here's a video from David Lane
      > that points out that these fake
      > Masters, like Klemp, simply get
      > in the way of Soul's freedom to
      > Be and to grow. Why become
      > codependent upon a "Mahanta"
      > or anyone?
      >
      > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i6RjV4ltY0
      >
      > Prometheus
      >

    • etznab@aol.com
      The power of suggestion can influence one s dreams. I am convinced of this. A lot of times my dreams will reflect what was playing on TV just before bed. If
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 12 9:13 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        The power of suggestion can influence one's dreams. I am convinced of
        this. A lot of times my dreams will reflect what was playing on TV just
        before bed. If not that, then they would be involved with what was on
        my mind just before sleep. I think it's a natural process for the mind
        to sort out experiences during the day. People actually re-live some of
        that stuff that went on during the day.

        Now if a person reads an Eck book and has Eck Masters on the brain just
        before bed, I don't see it unusual people would find these things
        turning up on the inner and in dreams.

        Perhaps one of the misunderstandings people have is that anything not a
        symbolical dream is a "real" experience. As if all vivid dreams and
        inner experiences are somehow more real compared with dreams that don't
        make sense because the information is scrambled, or symbolic.

        I never thought about this much, but I think delusions can be very
        vivid too. Especially when the subconscious is involved; and anything
        like inner planes. Moreover, on the inner planes entities can probably
        take various forms in order to influence the dreamer. The entities need
        not be some other thing outside the individual, but could be entities
        created by the individual instead. Like memes, or facimilies.
        Personally created, or borrowed from others.

        What I would really like to know more than anything else is what Paul
        Twitchell's original works and manuscripts show about his Eck Masters.
        Rebazar Tarzs chief among them. However, as I did not write the script
        and haven't the originals all I can do is read and listen to what was
        put in Eckankar books and Eckankar people say; which, IMO doesn't
        automatically equate with truth. Knowing the truth is the only way to
        purge the fictional characters though, IMO. Because so long as an
        inkling of belief in fiction as literal truth remains, I suspect people
        will be subject to an extent. At the same time, I think enough history
        remains to describe the truth more accurately. History like what exists
        in the Vatican archives though, and what so many are not allowed to
        see.

        Recently I was reminded that both Doug Marman and Harold Klemp probably
        knew about things many years ago. However, I think they chose to let
        some of the myths remain on account of the power and influence they can
        have over people that believe.

        ***

        a.r.e. repost ...

        Oh well, What the heck. I searched for just a little bit on the Net
        (about three minutes) when I found something of relevance. Here's a
        short excerpt to give the gist of what it's about.

        "As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has
        become misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I
        know that some could say that I am just offering another
        interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
        The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
        whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
        gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite
        straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
        swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
        with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
        clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library
        dream as well."

        http://www.mombu.com/religion/eckankar/t-another-question-for-doug-god-sense-books-clear-office-13150495.html

        I tried to find the original T.S. post for a time frame when Doug wrote
        that. It appears to be early 2004. See January 3rd, 2004 post: Response
        to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman

        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144

        ***

        https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8_wBxuhcsJg



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:40 pm
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
        Delusional Conman?

         
        I had already seen what a room full of psychics could produce before I
        became an eckist.   Eckist are busy reinforcing what the lem says
        so then they all are convinced it is so.  In my early days of eckankar
        I dreamed about the lem and other masters. Marvelous things did I see
        in my dreams.  I believe that was because I was influenced by what I
        read and what other eckist said.  I wanted to believe.  Near the end of
        my days in eckankar, my dreams concerning these eckist and the eck
        masters got really distorted.  They and the masters were doing weird
        and sometimes terrible things in my dreams.  As I fell away more and
        more, the worse my dreams about eckankar became.  The dreams about such
        things stopped all together once I was out.  I was no longer influenced
        by it. 
         
        Klemp is probably still just as delusional as the day he stripped in
        public and was locked up for it.  He believes he is the true lem.  From
        everything I have read the only real strong trait he has is that he is
        intolerant of other people.  This is then passed off as his being
        overly susceptible to things because of his great burden of carrying
        all those karma ridden chelas. 
         
         Klemp is uninspiring as a leader and for a god man seems to have no
        inclination toward creativity.  He like Paul, takes from any source he
        can and since he was a long term Lutheran, he relies on that experience
        the most. 
         
        In short, I believe that eckist suffer from mass hypnosis because of
        their strong belief in the all knowing powers of their dull witted
        lem.  How else could you explain why so many would find some one
        so nondescript to be worthy of that kind of devotion.  They see what
        they want to see. 

        --- On Wed, 7/11/12, harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...>
        wrote:


        From: harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
        Delusional Conman?
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2012, 11:11 PM

          When I first got out of eckankar many years ago I too contemplated
        (forgive the term) whether Klemp was deluded, a nutjob or some other
        kind of lunatic. My conclusion is this: He is full of shit, knows he is
        full of shit and many of his followers knows he is full of shit. Most
        eckists think he's god incarnate. I have to imagine he could be a
        sociopath because if he had a conscience he would clearly have a
        difficult time living with himself for years on end spewing the same
        outrageous, absurd lies. He threatens people, writes dribble, creates a
        "lexicon" by merely changing the definitions of real words to suit his
        cult, and he imparts blessings on people. Think about it. It takes a
        nutjob to do this sort of thing.

        I only wished that I trusted my instincts before I ever got involved in
        eckankar more than 20 years ago after reading Twitchell's nonsense and
        hearing his illiterate, backwoods rhetoric. This was before I even knew
        there was a Harold Klemp.

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
        <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Etznab and All,
        > Thanks for the post.
        > It was right on! I'm
        > beginning to think
        > that Klemp might be
        > schizophrenic along
        > with a few other psychosis.
        >
        > For one thing, it's clear
        > that Klemp and his inner
        > circle are aware that he's
        > not in control of anyone
        > or anything except his
        > own followers, and that's
        > limited too. The effects of
        > what HK says works like
        > Voo Doo. It takes a true
        > believer to give his words
        > power. Thus, Klemp is
        > more the carnival hypnotist
        > as he programs via repeated
        > suggestions in order to have
        > his puppets act, talk, and
        > believe in a certain way.
        > ECKists are like chickens
        > in a hen house while HK is
        > the fox guarding it in their
        > dreams.
        >
        > IMO, half of Klemp knows
        > he's a fraud and the other
        > half is thinking that fate
        > has given him some magical
        > powers... and to be a messenger
        > of hope and for the good
        > of mankind. Basically, he's
        > scamming ECKists out of
        > their time and money like
        > other religious leaders are
        > doing with their followers.
        > And, there are probably
        > the same proportion of
        > EKists who are hypocrites
        > and heretics as with all
        > religions. This doesn't make
        > any ECKist "special" only
        > average. But, their egos
        > need to feel "special" in
        > order to believe all the lies!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > etznab wrote:
        > Apparently, a chief source for the Eckankar teachings has come from
        > imagination. Even since the beginning. And it looks this way still.
        >
        > Some things can be checked and some writings Paul Twitchell
        compiled /
        > copied / paraphrased from. However, imagination has always been a
        > source for what Eckankar and Eckists share.
        >
        > If what comes from "Eck Masters" on the inner is "real" I say it is
        > most likely real because people in their imaginations made it real.
        > Imaginations fed by stories concocted by people before them by
        > imagination and / or concocted deliberately for some other
        purposes.
        >
        > Imagination has and can bring many amazing things. Including many
        > inventions. So maybe it's better to call imagination the source of
        so
        > many spiritual teachings and not necessarily some largely anonymous
        > lineage, league, council, etc. of Masters hiding out in the
        background
        > of physical paintings, drawings and books?
        >
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        >
        > It was a Bait and Switch
        > when most long-time EKists
        > were fooled. We were told
        > EKankar was a "Spiritual
        > Path" and not really a religion,
        > but we were told Twitchell
        > needed to play-the-game
        > to protect the outer org
        > and for the tax free benefits
        > in order for the EK teachings
        > to survive. Years after his
        > death we found out that
        > Twitchell lied about everything
        > and had been a liar for all
        > his life.
        >
        > Then, later, Klemp came
        > on the scene by tricking
        > Gross into thinking he could
        > be trusted and that there was
        > room at the top for two ECK
        > Masters. This is when the
        > big changes in direction took
        > place and ECKankar became
        > an "official religion" for all
        > ECKists to see and to promote.
        > And, it's when Klemp began
        > to introduce his dogmatic
        > leanings toward the Lutheran
        > Church with quotes from
        > the distorted King James
        > version of the Bible.
        >
        > Now, HK is still looking for
        > volunteers to bring in more
        > money. He'll say things like,
        > "You, as ECKists, are very
        > special messengers of the
        > Mahanta." Yet, Klemp can't
        > deliver because he's not a
        > God nor a Master. Feeling
        > "special" is a trap. It's pretend!
        >
        > ECKists are asked to imagine
        > and dream and convince them-
        > selves that reality is not this
        > life... it's more, therefore,
        > don't look here, look over
        > there! But, in the mean time,
        > EKists need to sell more books
        > and CDs/DVDs and all sorts
        > of crap which make the same
        > promises as before, but has
        > new wrappings and testimonials.
        > Klemp's KAL trap is one of
        > distraction and to keep EKies
        > busy so they don't have time
        > to think about anything except
        > ECKankar.
        >
        > Plus, the reasons for why
        > Klemp is pushing for ECKists
        > to volunteer so much and
        > read his books is easy to
        > understand once it is pointed
        > out:
        >
        > 1. His ego needs the accolades.
        > HK has to live up to his listing
        > in "The International Who's
        > Who of Intellectuals" which
        > he paid for!
        >
        > 2. He has to impress the
        > other preachers and holy
        > men, not only in the Chanhassen/
        > Minneapolis area, around
        > the world, as well as, his
        > low/loyal servants/followers.
        >
        > 3. Klemp receives 50%
        > royalties on everything with
        > his name on it, therefore,
        > he needs to push out more
        > and more merchandise.
        >
        > 4. I'm thinking that Klemp
        > wants to set some kind of
        > a record for writing the most
        > "books." His followers will
        > feel proud of him, he will
        > feel proud, and it gives a
        > false sense of validation
        > for what he's writing. Plus,
        > EKists will buy his redundant
        > newly packaged merchandise
        > adding money to his pockets
        > while taking money from them.
        > But, they're paying to feel
        > good, so, if not him it would
        > be something/someone else...
        > like family.
        >
        > 5. His books manipulate and
        > hypnotize his followers. It
        > keeps them living in delusion.
        >
        > 6. It's a way to recruit more
        > people which means more
        > volunteers and more money.
        > Remember, Klemp has said
        > "there's no free lunch in
        > Eckankar."
        >
        > Here's a video from David Lane
        > that points out that these fake
        > Masters, like Klemp, simply get
        > in the way of Soul's freedom to
        > Be and to grow. Why become
        > codependent upon a "Mahanta"
        > or anyone?
        >
        > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i6RjV4ltY0
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • Janice Pfeiffer
        I believe dreams have multiple purposes in our lives.  I too have had dreams that were triggered by something that happened during the day.  Even a small
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 12 10:28 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          I believe dreams have multiple purposes in our lives.  I too have had dreams that were triggered by something that happened during the day.  Even a small insignificant thing could reappear in the dream state.   Most of the time, this kind of dream wouldn't make a lot of sense.  It would come across like a random conglomeration of ideas that merged into something senseless. 
           
          Then I have had what is called lucid dreams in which I experienced sight, sound, smells and taste.  I'd feel truly alive and could even experience pain or pleasure.  These dreams were meaningful and usually brought about some new insight. 
           
          I believe the first kind of dream is just a stress reliever.  Just as we use movies, TV, music or physical activity to distract us from lifes stressors, our brains may need to let go with a little nonsensical play on its own.  And thus the mixed up dream comes about.
           
          But the lucid dream seems to be a whole different matter.  From these I always woke with something of lasting value.  These dreams had purpose.  Some I viewed as a gift.  Others imparted something of importance to me that maybe I wasn't paying real attention to in the waking state.  A few times I met people who had past away and had the chance to say the things that went unsaid in life.
           
          Our dreams may be just unrecognized parts of ourselves.  I kind of think that since there is so much of our brain that we don't use on a day to day basis, it can and doesl activate to impart to us things of value at time, unprompted by anything going on in our daily lives.  The subject of the lucid dreams usually was not prompted by anything that happened previously.  These seem to come out of left field.
           
          Anyway, for me these things have value and often give me things I can treasure.
           
          There is so much about us as beings that we can't fully understand.  The reason for our dreams may be one of them.  Are we capable of time travel in dreams?  Can we go places we can't in waking life?  Can we communicate with others in them?  I don't really know but I find purpose in my dreams at times.  That's enough for me.

          --- On Fri, 7/13/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

          From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A Delusional Conman?
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, July 13, 2012, 4:13 AM

           
          The power of suggestion can influence one's dreams. I am convinced of
          this. A lot of times my dreams will reflect what was playing on TV just
          before bed. If not that, then they would be involved with what was on
          my mind just before sleep. I think it's a natural process for the mind
          to sort out experiences during the day. People actually re-live some of
          that stuff that went on during the day.

          Now if a person reads an Eck book and has Eck Masters on the brain just
          before bed, I don't see it unusual people would find these things
          turning up on the inner and in dreams.

          Perhaps one of the misunderstandings people have is that anything not a
          symbolical dream is a "real" experience. As if all vivid dreams and
          inner experiences are somehow more real compared with dreams that don't
          make sense because the information is scrambled, or symbolic.

          I never thought about this much, but I think delusions can be very
          vivid too. Especially when the subconscious is involved; and anything
          like inner planes. Moreover, on the inner planes entities can probably
          take various forms in order to influence the dreamer. The entities need
          not be some other thing outside the individual, but could be entities
          created by the individual instead. Like memes, or facimilies.
          Personally created, or borrowed from others.

          What I would really like to know more than anything else is what Paul
          Twitchell's original works and manuscripts show about his Eck Masters.
          Rebazar Tarzs chief among them. However, as I did not write the script
          and haven't the originals all I can do is read and listen to what was
          put in Eckankar books and Eckankar people say; which, IMO doesn't
          automatically equate with truth. Knowing the truth is the only way to
          purge the fictional characters though, IMO. Because so long as an
          inkling of belief in fiction as literal truth remains, I suspect people
          will be subject to an extent. At the same time, I think enough history
          remains to describe the truth more accurately. History like what exists
          in the Vatican archives though, and what so many are not allowed to
          see.

          Recently I was reminded that both Doug Marman and Harold Klemp probably
          knew about things many years ago. However, I think they chose to let
          some of the myths remain on account of the power and influence they can
          have over people that believe.

          ***

          a.r.e. repost ...

          Oh well, What the heck. I searched for just a little bit on the Net
          (about three minutes) when I found something of relevance. Here's a
          short excerpt to give the gist of what it's about.

          "As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has
          become misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I
          know that some could say that I am just offering another
          interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
          The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
          whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
          gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite
          straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
          swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
          with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
          clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library
          dream as well."

          http://www.mombu.com/religion/eckankar/t-another-question-for-doug-god-sense-books-clear-office-13150495.html

          I tried to find the original T.S. post for a time frame when Doug wrote
          that. It appears to be early 2004. See January 3rd, 2004 post: Response
          to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman

          http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144

          ***

          https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8_wBxuhcsJg

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:40 pm
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
          Delusional Conman?

           
          I had already seen what a room full of psychics could produce before I
          became an eckist.   Eckist are busy reinforcing what the lem says
          so then they all are convinced it is so.  In my early days of eckankar
          I dreamed about the lem and other masters. Marvelous things did I see
          in my dreams.  I believe that was because I was influenced by what I
          read and what other eckist said.  I wanted to believe.  Near the end of
          my days in eckankar, my dreams concerning these eckist and the eck
          masters got really distorted.  They and the masters were doing weird
          and sometimes terrible things in my dreams.  As I fell away more and
          more, the worse my dreams about eckankar became.  The dreams about such
          things stopped all together once I was out.  I was no longer influenced
          by it. 
           
          Klemp is probably still just as delusional as the day he stripped in
          public and was locked up for it.  He believes he is the true lem.  From
          everything I have read the only real strong trait he has is that he is
          intolerant of other people.  This is then passed off as his being
          overly susceptible to things because of his great burden of carrying
          all those karma ridden chelas. 
           
           Klemp is uninspiring as a leader and for a god man seems to have no
          inclination toward creativity.  He like Paul, takes from any source he
          can and since he was a long term Lutheran, he relies on that experience
          the most. 
           
          In short, I believe that eckist suffer from mass hypnosis because of
          their strong belief in the all knowing powers of their dull witted
          lem.  How else could you explain why so many would find some one
          so nondescript to be worthy of that kind of devotion.  They see what
          they want to see. 

          --- On Wed, 7/11/12, harrisonferrel &lt;harrisonferrel@...&gt;
          wrote:

          From: harrisonferrel &lt;harrisonferrel@...&gt;
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
          Delusional Conman?
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2012, 11:11 PM

            When I first got out of eckankar many years ago I too contemplated
          (forgive the term) whether Klemp was deluded, a nutjob or some other
          kind of lunatic. My conclusion is this: He is full of shit, knows he is
          full of shit and many of his followers knows he is full of shit. Most
          eckists think he's god incarnate. I have to imagine he could be a
          sociopath because if he had a conscience he would clearly have a
          difficult time living with himself for years on end spewing the same
          outrageous, absurd lies. He threatens people, writes dribble, creates a
          "lexicon" by merely changing the definitions of real words to suit his
          cult, and he imparts blessings on people. Think about it. It takes a
          nutjob to do this sort of thing.

          I only wished that I trusted my instincts before I ever got involved in
          eckankar more than 20 years ago after reading Twitchell's nonsense and
          hearing his illiterate, backwoods rhetoric. This was before I even knew
          there was a Harold Klemp.

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          &lt;prometheus_973@...&gt; wrote:
          &gt;
          &gt; Hello Etznab and All,
          &gt; Thanks for the post.
          &gt; It was right on! I'm
          &gt; beginning to think
          &gt; that Klemp might be
          &gt; schizophrenic along
          &gt; with a few other psychosis.
          &gt;
          &gt; For one thing, it's clear
          &gt; that Klemp and his inner
          &gt; circle are aware that he's
          &gt; not in control of anyone
          &gt; or anything except his
          &gt; own followers, and that's
          &gt; limited too. The effects of
          &gt; what HK says works like
          &gt; Voo Doo. It takes a true
          &gt; believer to give his words
          &gt; power. Thus, Klemp is
          &gt; more the carnival hypnotist
          &gt; as he programs via repeated
          &gt; suggestions in order to have
          &gt; his puppets act, talk, and
          &gt; believe in a certain way.
          &gt; ECKists are like chickens
          &gt; in a hen house while HK is
          &gt; the fox guarding it in their
          &gt; dreams.
          &gt;
          &gt; IMO, half of Klemp knows
          &gt; he's a fraud and the other
          &gt; half is thinking that fate
          &gt; has given him some magical
          &gt; powers... and to be a messenger
          &gt; of hope and for the good
          &gt; of mankind. Basically, he's
          &gt; scamming ECKists out of
          &gt; their time and money like
          &gt; other religious leaders are
          &gt; doing with their followers.
          &gt; And, there are probably
          &gt; the same proportion of
          &gt; EKists who are hypocrites
          &gt; and heretics as with all
          &gt; religions. This doesn't make
          &gt; any ECKist "special" only
          &gt; average. But, their egos
          &gt; need to feel "special" in
          &gt; order to believe all the lies!
          &gt;
          &gt; Prometheus
          &gt;
          &gt;
          &gt;
          &gt;
          &gt; etznab wrote:
          &gt; Apparently, a chief source for the Eckankar teachings has come from
          &gt; imagination. Even since the beginning. And it looks this way still.
          &gt;
          &gt; Some things can be checked and some writings Paul Twitchell
          compiled /
          &gt; copied / paraphrased from. However, imagination has always been a
          &gt; source for what Eckankar and Eckists share.
          &gt;
          &gt; If what comes from "Eck Masters" on the inner is "real" I say it is
          &gt; most likely real because people in their imaginations made it real.
          &gt; Imaginations fed by stories concocted by people before them by
          &gt; imagination and / or concocted deliberately for some other
          purposes.
          &gt;
          &gt; Imagination has and can bring many amazing things. Including many
          &gt; inventions. So maybe it's better to call imagination the source of
          so
          &gt; many spiritual teachings and not necessarily some largely anonymous
          &gt; lineage, league, council, etc. of Masters hiding out in the
          background
          &gt; of physical paintings, drawings and books?
          &gt;
          &gt;
          &gt; prometheus wrote:
          &gt;
          &gt; It was a Bait and Switch
          &gt; when most long-time EKists
          &gt; were fooled. We were told
          &gt; EKankar was a "Spiritual
          &gt; Path" and not really a religion,
          &gt; but we were told Twitchell
          &gt; needed to play-the-game
          &gt; to protect the outer org
          &gt; and for the tax free benefits
          &gt; in order for the EK teachings
          &gt; to survive. Years after his
          &gt; death we found out that
          &gt; Twitchell lied about everything
          &gt; and had been a liar for all
          &gt; his life.
          &gt;
          &gt; Then, later, Klemp came
          &gt; on the scene by tricking
          &gt; Gross into thinking he could
          &gt; be trusted and that there was
          &gt; room at the top for two ECK
          &gt; Masters. This is when the
          &gt; big changes in direction took
          &gt; place and ECKankar became
          &gt; an "official religion" for all
          &gt; ECKists to see and to promote.
          &gt; And, it's when Klemp began
          &gt; to introduce his dogmatic
          &gt; leanings toward the Lutheran
          &gt; Church with quotes from
          &gt; the distorted King James
          &gt; version of the Bible.
          &gt;
          &gt; Now, HK is still looking for
          &gt; volunteers to bring in more
          &gt; money. He'll say things like,
          &gt; "You, as ECKists, are very
          &gt; special messengers of the
          &gt; Mahanta." Yet, Klemp can't
          &gt; deliver because he's not a
          &gt; God nor a Master. Feeling
          &gt; "special" is a trap. It's pretend!
          &gt;
          &gt; ECKists are asked to imagine
          &gt; and dream and convince them-
          &gt; selves that reality is not this
          &gt; life... it's more, therefore,
          &gt; don't look here, look over
          &gt; there! But, in the mean time,
          &gt; EKists need to sell more books
          &gt; and CDs/DVDs and all sorts
          &gt; of crap which make the same
          &gt; promises as before, but has
          &gt; new wrappings and testimonials.
          &gt; Klemp's KAL trap is one of
          &gt; distraction and to keep EKies
          &gt; busy so they don't have time
          &gt; to think about anything except
          &gt; ECKankar.
          &gt;
          &gt; Plus, the reasons for why
          &gt; Klemp is pushing for ECKists
          &gt; to volunteer so much and
          &gt; read his books is easy to
          &gt; understand once it is pointed
          &gt; out:
          &gt;
          &gt; 1. His ego needs the accolades.
          &gt; HK has to live up to his listing
          &gt; in "The International Who's
          &gt; Who of Intellectuals" which
          &gt; he paid for!
          &gt;
          &gt; 2. He has to impress the
          &gt; other preachers and holy
          &gt; men, not only in the Chanhassen/
          &gt; Minneapolis area, around
          &gt; the world, as well as, his
          &gt; low/loyal servants/followers.
          &gt;
          &gt; 3. Klemp receives 50%
          &gt; royalties on everything with
          &gt; his name on it, therefore,
          &gt; he needs to push out more
          &gt; and more merchandise.
          &gt;
          &gt; 4. I'm thinking that Klemp
          &gt; wants to set some kind of
          &gt; a record for writing the most
          &gt; "books." His followers will
          &gt; feel proud of him, he will
          &gt; feel proud, and it gives a
          &gt; false sense of validation
          &gt; for what he's writing. Plus,
          &gt; EKists will buy his redundant
          &gt; newly packaged merchandise
          &gt; adding money to his pockets
          &gt; while taking money from them.
          &gt; But, they're paying to feel
          &gt; good, so, if not him it would
          &gt; be something/someone else...
          &gt; like family.
          &gt;
          &gt; 5. His books manipulate and
          &gt; hypnotize his followers. It
          &gt; keeps them living in delusion.
          &gt;
          &gt; 6. It's a way to recruit more
          &gt; people which means more
          &gt; volunteers and more money.
          &gt; Remember, Klemp has said
          &gt; "there's no free lunch in
          &gt; Eckankar."
          &gt;
          &gt; Here's a video from David Lane
          &gt; that points out that these fake
          &gt; Masters, like Klemp, simply get
          &gt; in the way of Soul's freedom to
          &gt; Be and to grow. Why become
          &gt; codependent upon a "Mahanta"
          &gt; or anyone?
          &gt;
          &gt; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i6RjV4ltY0
          &gt;
          &gt; Prometheus
          &gt;

        • prometheus_973
          Hello Etznab and All, Forgive me for saying this but I m not so sure you would have believed the resurrection if you could have put your fingers into Jesus
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 13 12:45 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Etznab and All,
            Forgive me for saying this
            but I'm not so sure you would
            have believed the resurrection
            if you could have put your
            fingers into Jesus' wounds.

            Why think that seeing documents
            in the Vatican archives would
            expose the truth? Who wrote
            those documents and how
            many times were they edited
            and rewritten? Plus, it was all
            subjective from one person's
            POV and experience. What
            biases and influences did this
            person buy into during this
            ancient time and what was
            the level of their intellect?
            Were they superstitious? Thus,
            even if this person was another
            Albert Einstein are we to trust
            their personal religious experience?

            As far as Twitchell goes there
            is quite enough proof, via the
            timeline, to show his Rebazar
            lie. It's been pointed out Using
            PT's own words in "Difficulties
            Of Becoming The LEM."

            And, of course, Marman and
            Klemp are liars and have been
            covering up the Truth for years.

            Back in the Mid-'80s Klemp
            had Marge and others look
            into Twit's Kirpal and Sudar
            Singh claims and uncovered
            numerous lies. Klemp even
            mentions on the eckankar
            web site that Twit lied in
            order to get into "Who's Who
            in Kentucky." Plus, Marman
            admitted that Twit made up
            the whole Mahanta thing in
            1968. Also, Marman admitted
            that Twit lied about being in
            Paris, France and that it was
            actually Paris, Kentucky.

            Prometheus

            etznab@... wrote:
            >
            > The power of suggestion can influence one's dreams. I am convinced of
            > this. A lot of times my dreams will reflect what was playing on TV just
            > before bed. If not that, then they would be involved with what was on
            > my mind just before sleep. I think it's a natural process for the mind
            > to sort out experiences during the day. People actually re-live some of
            > that stuff that went on during the day.
            >
            > Now if a person reads an Eck book and has Eck Masters on the brain just
            > before bed, I don't see it unusual people would find these things
            > turning up on the inner and in dreams.
            >
            > Perhaps one of the misunderstandings people have is that anything not a
            > symbolical dream is a "real" experience. As if all vivid dreams and
            > inner experiences are somehow more real compared with dreams that don't
            > make sense because the information is scrambled, or symbolic.
            >
            > I never thought about this much, but I think delusions can be very
            > vivid too. Especially when the subconscious is involved; and anything
            > like inner planes. Moreover, on the inner planes entities can probably
            > take various forms in order to influence the dreamer. The entities need
            > not be some other thing outside the individual, but could be entities
            > created by the individual instead. Like memes, or facimilies.
            > Personally created, or borrowed from others.
            >
            > What I would really like to know more than anything else is what Paul
            > Twitchell's original works and manuscripts show about his Eck Masters.
            > Rebazar Tarzs chief among them. However, as I did not write the script
            > and haven't the originals all I can do is read and listen to what was
            > put in Eckankar books and Eckankar people say; which, IMO doesn't
            > automatically equate with truth. Knowing the truth is the only way to
            > purge the fictional characters though, IMO. Because so long as an
            > inkling of belief in fiction as literal truth remains, I suspect people
            > will be subject to an extent. At the same time, I think enough history
            > remains to describe the truth more accurately. History like what exists
            > in the Vatican archives though, and what so many are not allowed to
            > see.
            >
            > Recently I was reminded that both Doug Marman and Harold Klemp probably
            > knew about things many years ago. However, I think they chose to let
            > some of the myths remain on account of the power and influence they can
            > have over people that believe.
            >
            > ***
            >
            > a.r.e. repost ...
            >
            > Oh well, What the heck. I searched for just a little bit on the Net
            > (about three minutes) when I found something of relevance. Here's a
            > short excerpt to give the gist of what it's about.
            >
            > "As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has
            > become misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I
            > know that some could say that I am just offering another
            > interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
            > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
            > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
            > gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite
            > straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
            > swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
            > with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
            > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library
            > dream as well."
            >
            > http://www.mombu.com/religion/eckankar/t-another-question-for-doug-god-sense-books-clear-office-13150495.html
            >
            > I tried to find the original T.S. post for a time frame when Doug wrote
            > that. It appears to be early 2004. See January 3rd, 2004 post: Response
            > to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman
            >
            > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
            >
            > ***
            >
            > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8_wBxuhcsJg
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:40 pm
            > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
            > Delusional Conman?
            >
            >  
            > I had already seen what a room full of psychics could produce before I
            > became an eckist.   Eckist are busy reinforcing what the lem says
            > so then they all are convinced it is so.  In my early days of eckankar
            > I dreamed about the lem and other masters. Marvelous things did I see
            > in my dreams.  I believe that was because I was influenced by what I
            > read and what other eckist said.  I wanted to believe.  Near the end of
            > my days in eckankar, my dreams concerning these eckist and the eck
            > masters got really distorted.  They and the masters were doing weird
            > and sometimes terrible things in my dreams.  As I fell away more and
            > more, the worse my dreams about eckankar became.  The dreams about such
            > things stopped all together once I was out.  I was no longer influenced
            > by it. 
            >  
            > Klemp is probably still just as delusional as the day he stripped in
            > public and was locked up for it.  He believes he is the true lem.  From
            > everything I have read the only real strong trait he has is that he is
            > intolerant of other people.  This is then passed off as his being
            > overly susceptible to things because of his great burden of carrying
            > all those karma ridden chelas. 
            >  
            >  Klemp is uninspiring as a leader and for a god man seems to have no
            > inclination toward creativity.  He like Paul, takes from any source he
            > can and since he was a long term Lutheran, he relies on that experience
            > the most. 
            >  
            > In short, I believe that eckist suffer from mass hypnosis because of
            > their strong belief in the all knowing powers of their dull witted
            > lem.  How else could you explain why so many would find some one
            > so nondescript to be worthy of that kind of devotion.  They see what
            > they want to see. 
            >
            > --- On Wed, 7/11/12, harrisonferrel harrisonferrel@...
            > wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: harrisonferrel harrisonferrel@...
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
            > Delusional Conman?
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2012, 11:11 PM
            >
            >   When I first got out of eckankar many years ago I too contemplated
            > (forgive the term) whether Klemp was deluded, a nutjob or some other
            > kind of lunatic. My conclusion is this: He is full of shit, knows he is
            > full of shit and many of his followers knows he is full of shit. Most
            > eckists think he's god incarnate. I have to imagine he could be a
            > sociopath because if he had a conscience he would clearly have a
            > difficult time living with himself for years on end spewing the same
            > outrageous, absurd lies. He threatens people, writes dribble, creates a
            > "lexicon" by merely changing the definitions of real words to suit his
            > cult, and he imparts blessings on people. Think about it. It takes a
            > nutjob to do this sort of thing.
            >
            > I only wished that I trusted my instincts before I ever got involved in
            > eckankar more than 20 years ago after reading Twitchell's nonsense and
            > hearing his illiterate, backwoods rhetoric. This was before I even knew
            > there was a Harold Klemp.
            >
            > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
            > prometheus_973@ wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Etznab and All,
            > > Thanks for the post.
            > > It was right on! I'm
            > > beginning to think
            > > that Klemp might be
            > > schizophrenic along
            > > with a few other psychosis.
            > >
            > > For one thing, it's clear
            > > that Klemp and his inner
            > > circle are aware that he's
            > > not in control of anyone
            > > or anything except his
            > > own followers, and that's
            > > limited too. The effects of
            > > what HK says works like
            > > Voo Doo. It takes a true
            > > believer to give his words
            > > power. Thus, Klemp is
            > > more the carnival hypnotist
            > > as he programs via repeated
            > > suggestions in order to have
            > > his puppets act, talk, and
            > > believe in a certain way.
            > > ECKists are like chickens
            > > in a hen house while HK is
            > > the fox guarding it in their
            > > dreams.
            > >
            > > IMO, half of Klemp knows
            > > he's a fraud and the other
            > > half is thinking that fate
            > > has given him some magical
            > > powers... and to be a messenger
            > > of hope and for the good
            > > of mankind. Basically, he's
            > > scamming ECKists out of
            > > their time and money like
            > > other religious leaders are
            > > doing with their followers.
            > > And, there are probably
            > > the same proportion of
            > > EKists who are hypocrites
            > > and heretics as with all
            > > religions. This doesn't make
            > > any ECKist "special" only
            > > average. But, their egos
            > > need to feel "special" in
            > > order to believe all the lies!
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > etznab wrote:
            > > Apparently, a chief source for the Eckankar teachings has come from
            > > imagination. Even since the beginning. And it looks this way still.
            > >
            > > Some things can be checked and some writings Paul Twitchell
            > compiled /
            > > copied / paraphrased from. However, imagination has always been a
            > > source for what Eckankar and Eckists share.
            > >
            > > If what comes from "Eck Masters" on the inner is "real" I say it is
            > > most likely real because people in their imaginations made it real.
            > > Imaginations fed by stories concocted by people before them by
            > > imagination and / or concocted deliberately for some other
            > purposes.
            > >
            > > Imagination has and can bring many amazing things. Including many
            > > inventions. So maybe it's better to call imagination the source of
            > so
            > > many spiritual teachings and not necessarily some largely anonymous
            > > lineage, league, council, etc. of Masters hiding out in the
            > background
            > > of physical paintings, drawings and books?
            > >
            > >
            > > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > It was a Bait and Switch
            > > when most long-time EKists
            > > were fooled. We were told
            > > EKankar was a "Spiritual
            > > Path" and not really a religion,
            > > but we were told Twitchell
            > > needed to play-the-game
            > > to protect the outer org
            > > and for the tax free benefits
            > > in order for the EK teachings
            > > to survive. Years after his
            > > death we found out that
            > > Twitchell lied about everything
            > > and had been a liar for all
            > > his life.
            > >
            > > Then, later, Klemp came
            > > on the scene by tricking
            > > Gross into thinking he could
            > > be trusted and that there was
            > > room at the top for two ECK
            > > Masters. This is when the
            > > big changes in direction took
            > > place and ECKankar became
            > > an "official religion" for all
            > > ECKists to see and to promote.
            > > And, it's when Klemp began
            > > to introduce his dogmatic
            > > leanings toward the Lutheran
            > > Church with quotes from
            > > the distorted King James
            > > version of the Bible.
            > >
            > > Now, HK is still looking for
            > > volunteers to bring in more
            > > money. He'll say things like,
            > > "You, as ECKists, are very
            > > special messengers of the
            > > Mahanta." Yet, Klemp can't
            > > deliver because he's not a
            > > God nor a Master. Feeling
            > > "special" is a trap. It's pretend!
            > >
            > > ECKists are asked to imagine
            > > and dream and convince them-
            > > selves that reality is not this
            > > life... it's more, therefore,
            > > don't look here, look over
            > > there! But, in the mean time,
            > > EKists need to sell more books
            > > and CDs/DVDs and all sorts
            > > of crap which make the same
            > > promises as before, but has
            > > new wrappings and testimonials.
            > > Klemp's KAL trap is one of
            > > distraction and to keep EKies
            > > busy so they don't have time
            > > to think about anything except
            > > ECKankar.
            > >
            > > Plus, the reasons for why
            > > Klemp is pushing for ECKists
            > > to volunteer so much and
            > > read his books is easy to
            > > understand once it is pointed
            > > out:
            > >
            > > 1. His ego needs the accolades.
            > > HK has to live up to his listing
            > > in "The International Who's
            > > Who of Intellectuals" which
            > > he paid for!
            > >
            > > 2. He has to impress the
            > > other preachers and holy
            > > men, not only in the Chanhassen/
            > > Minneapolis area, around
            > > the world, as well as, his
            > > low/loyal servants/followers.
            > >
            > > 3. Klemp receives 50%
            > > royalties on everything with
            > > his name on it, therefore,
            > > he needs to push out more
            > > and more merchandise.
            > >
            > > 4. I'm thinking that Klemp
            > > wants to set some kind of
            > > a record for writing the most
            > > "books." His followers will
            > > feel proud of him, he will
            > > feel proud, and it gives a
            > > false sense of validation
            > > for what he's writing. Plus,
            > > EKists will buy his redundant
            > > newly packaged merchandise
            > > adding money to his pockets
            > > while taking money from them.
            > > But, they're paying to feel
            > > good, so, if not him it would
            > > be something/someone else...
            > > like family.
            > >
            > > 5. His books manipulate and
            > > hypnotize his followers. It
            > > keeps them living in delusion.
            > >
            > > 6. It's a way to recruit more
            > > people which means more
            > > volunteers and more money.
            > > Remember, Klemp has said
            > > "there's no free lunch in
            > > Eckankar."
            > >
            > > Here's a video from David Lane
            > > that points out that these fake
            > > Masters, like Klemp, simply get
            > > in the way of Soul's freedom to
            > > Be and to grow. Why become
            > > codependent upon a "Mahanta"
            > > or anyone?
            > >
            > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i6RjV4ltY0
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            >
          • Non
            Just look at the history of any cult/religious movement and you will find numerous examples of thousands of people being misled by some self-proclaimed
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 14 11:02 PM
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              Just look at the history of any cult/religious movement and you will find numerous examples of thousands of people being misled by some self-proclaimed prophet, master, etc. Once they are hooked by a strong feeling, overwhelming hypnogogic experiences, delusion and following the will of some authority figure is a very potent mix for disaster and suffering and quite often sadism. It may be intoxicating at first but without questioning and investigation then there you are with a bunch of other people to agree with you, and anyone else is then demonized.

              Reading the book "Under the Banner of Heaven" about the extremes of Mormonism in the past and the present is very interesting nonfiction about how a supposed "empirical" like ancient gold plates seen but then taken back by God's messenger, and also writing a fictitious Book of Mormon, adding The Doctrine and Covenants as documentation of Joseph Smith's "Revelations" is not so dissimilar to eckankar and the the LIAR LIVING ECK MASTER/MAHANTA, harold klemp, twitch and gross.

              Believe in reb tarz, but there are so many other cult/religious movements to choose from with fictional drawings of what they supposedly look like, and believe at your own peril.

              Better to just work on what is, create, love poetry, live and accept your humanness, find a cause that makes the earth a better place, and also maybe admit that we are all at least a little bit dirty and nasty as well as good. No such thing as a perfect highest holy state of consciousness for anyone. Some people I admire more than others, but even Oprah has her many flaws, and likes celebrities who espouse a cult/religious movement. Read her unauthorized biography by Kitty Kelley, quite the eye opener. Even the greatest philanthropist has human flaws and problems.

              eckankar is really really nasty as far as cult/religious movements go and don't forget it!

              noneckster ; )


              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Etznab and All,
              > Forgive me for saying this
              > but I'm not so sure you would
              > have believed the resurrection
              > if you could have put your
              > fingers into Jesus' wounds.
              >
              > Why think that seeing documents
              > in the Vatican archives would
              > expose the truth? Who wrote
              > those documents and how
              > many times were they edited
              > and rewritten? Plus, it was all
              > subjective from one person's
              > POV and experience. What
              > biases and influences did this
              > person buy into during this
              > ancient time and what was
              > the level of their intellect?
              > Were they superstitious? Thus,
              > even if this person was another
              > Albert Einstein are we to trust
              > their personal religious experience?
              >
              > As far as Twitchell goes there
              > is quite enough proof, via the
              > timeline, to show his Rebazar
              > lie. It's been pointed out Using
              > PT's own words in "Difficulties
              > Of Becoming The LEM."
              >
              > And, of course, Marman and
              > Klemp are liars and have been
              > covering up the Truth for years.
              >
              > Back in the Mid-'80s Klemp
              > had Marge and others look
              > into Twit's Kirpal and Sudar
              > Singh claims and uncovered
              > numerous lies. Klemp even
              > mentions on the eckankar
              > web site that Twit lied in
              > order to get into "Who's Who
              > in Kentucky." Plus, Marman
              > admitted that Twit made up
              > the whole Mahanta thing in
              > 1968. Also, Marman admitted
              > that Twit lied about being in
              > Paris, France and that it was
              > actually Paris, Kentucky.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > etznab@ wrote:
              > >
              > > The power of suggestion can influence one's dreams. I am convinced of
              > > this. A lot of times my dreams will reflect what was playing on TV just
              > > before bed. If not that, then they would be involved with what was on
              > > my mind just before sleep. I think it's a natural process for the mind
              > > to sort out experiences during the day. People actually re-live some of
              > > that stuff that went on during the day.
              > >
              > > Now if a person reads an Eck book and has Eck Masters on the brain just
              > > before bed, I don't see it unusual people would find these things
              > > turning up on the inner and in dreams.
              > >
              > > Perhaps one of the misunderstandings people have is that anything not a
              > > symbolical dream is a "real" experience. As if all vivid dreams and
              > > inner experiences are somehow more real compared with dreams that don't
              > > make sense because the information is scrambled, or symbolic.
              > >
              > > I never thought about this much, but I think delusions can be very
              > > vivid too. Especially when the subconscious is involved; and anything
              > > like inner planes. Moreover, on the inner planes entities can probably
              > > take various forms in order to influence the dreamer. The entities need
              > > not be some other thing outside the individual, but could be entities
              > > created by the individual instead. Like memes, or facimilies.
              > > Personally created, or borrowed from others.
              > >
              > > What I would really like to know more than anything else is what Paul
              > > Twitchell's original works and manuscripts show about his Eck Masters.
              > > Rebazar Tarzs chief among them. However, as I did not write the script
              > > and haven't the originals all I can do is read and listen to what was
              > > put in Eckankar books and Eckankar people say; which, IMO doesn't
              > > automatically equate with truth. Knowing the truth is the only way to
              > > purge the fictional characters though, IMO. Because so long as an
              > > inkling of belief in fiction as literal truth remains, I suspect people
              > > will be subject to an extent. At the same time, I think enough history
              > > remains to describe the truth more accurately. History like what exists
              > > in the Vatican archives though, and what so many are not allowed to
              > > see.
              > >
              > > Recently I was reminded that both Doug Marman and Harold Klemp probably
              > > knew about things many years ago. However, I think they chose to let
              > > some of the myths remain on account of the power and influence they can
              > > have over people that believe.
              > >
              > > ***
              > >
              > > a.r.e. repost ...
              > >
              > > Oh well, What the heck. I searched for just a little bit on the Net
              > > (about three minutes) when I found something of relevance. Here's a
              > > short excerpt to give the gist of what it's about.
              > >
              > > "As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has
              > > become misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I
              > > know that some could say that I am just offering another
              > > interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
              > > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
              > > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
              > > gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite
              > > straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
              > > swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
              > > with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
              > > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library
              > > dream as well."
              > >
              > > http://www.mombu.com/religion/eckankar/t-another-question-for-doug-god-sense-books-clear-office-13150495.html
              > >
              > > I tried to find the original T.S. post for a time frame when Doug wrote
              > > that. It appears to be early 2004. See January 3rd, 2004 post: Response
              > > to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman
              > >
              > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
              > >
              > > ***
              > >
              > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8_wBxuhcsJg
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@>
              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:40 pm
              > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
              > > Delusional Conman?
              > >
              > >  
              > > I had already seen what a room full of psychics could produce before I
              > > became an eckist.   Eckist are busy reinforcing what the lem says
              > > so then they all are convinced it is so.  In my early days of eckankar
              > > I dreamed about the lem and other masters. Marvelous things did I see
              > > in my dreams.  I believe that was because I was influenced by what I
              > > read and what other eckist said.  I wanted to believe.  Near the end of
              > > my days in eckankar, my dreams concerning these eckist and the eck
              > > masters got really distorted.  They and the masters were doing weird
              > > and sometimes terrible things in my dreams.  As I fell away more and
              > > more, the worse my dreams about eckankar became.  The dreams about such
              > > things stopped all together once I was out.  I was no longer influenced
              > > by it. 
              > >  
              > > Klemp is probably still just as delusional as the day he stripped in
              > > public and was locked up for it.  He believes he is the true lem.  From
              > > everything I have read the only real strong trait he has is that he is
              > > intolerant of other people.  This is then passed off as his being
              > > overly susceptible to things because of his great burden of carrying
              > > all those karma ridden chelas. 
              > >  
              > >  Klemp is uninspiring as a leader and for a god man seems to have no
              > > inclination toward creativity.  He like Paul, takes from any source he
              > > can and since he was a long term Lutheran, he relies on that experience
              > > the most. 
              > >  
              > > In short, I believe that eckist suffer from mass hypnosis because of
              > > their strong belief in the all knowing powers of their dull witted
              > > lem.  How else could you explain why so many would find some one
              > > so nondescript to be worthy of that kind of devotion.  They see what
              > > they want to see. 
              > >
              > > --- On Wed, 7/11/12, harrisonferrel harrisonferrel@
              > > wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > From: harrisonferrel harrisonferrel@
              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
              > > Delusional Conman?
              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2012, 11:11 PM
              > >
              > >   When I first got out of eckankar many years ago I too contemplated
              > > (forgive the term) whether Klemp was deluded, a nutjob or some other
              > > kind of lunatic. My conclusion is this: He is full of shit, knows he is
              > > full of shit and many of his followers knows he is full of shit. Most
              > > eckists think he's god incarnate. I have to imagine he could be a
              > > sociopath because if he had a conscience he would clearly have a
              > > difficult time living with himself for years on end spewing the same
              > > outrageous, absurd lies. He threatens people, writes dribble, creates a
              > > "lexicon" by merely changing the definitions of real words to suit his
              > > cult, and he imparts blessings on people. Think about it. It takes a
              > > nutjob to do this sort of thing.
              > >
              > > I only wished that I trusted my instincts before I ever got involved in
              > > eckankar more than 20 years ago after reading Twitchell's nonsense and
              > > hearing his illiterate, backwoods rhetoric. This was before I even knew
              > > there was a Harold Klemp.
              > >
              > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              > > prometheus_973@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello Etznab and All,
              > > > Thanks for the post.
              > > > It was right on! I'm
              > > > beginning to think
              > > > that Klemp might be
              > > > schizophrenic along
              > > > with a few other psychosis.
              > > >
              > > > For one thing, it's clear
              > > > that Klemp and his inner
              > > > circle are aware that he's
              > > > not in control of anyone
              > > > or anything except his
              > > > own followers, and that's
              > > > limited too. The effects of
              > > > what HK says works like
              > > > Voo Doo. It takes a true
              > > > believer to give his words
              > > > power. Thus, Klemp is
              > > > more the carnival hypnotist
              > > > as he programs via repeated
              > > > suggestions in order to have
              > > > his puppets act, talk, and
              > > > believe in a certain way.
              > > > ECKists are like chickens
              > > > in a hen house while HK is
              > > > the fox guarding it in their
              > > > dreams.
              > > >
              > > > IMO, half of Klemp knows
              > > > he's a fraud and the other
              > > > half is thinking that fate
              > > > has given him some magical
              > > > powers... and to be a messenger
              > > > of hope and for the good
              > > > of mankind. Basically, he's
              > > > scamming ECKists out of
              > > > their time and money like
              > > > other religious leaders are
              > > > doing with their followers.
              > > > And, there are probably
              > > > the same proportion of
              > > > EKists who are hypocrites
              > > > and heretics as with all
              > > > religions. This doesn't make
              > > > any ECKist "special" only
              > > > average. But, their egos
              > > > need to feel "special" in
              > > > order to believe all the lies!
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > etznab wrote:
              > > > Apparently, a chief source for the Eckankar teachings has come from
              > > > imagination. Even since the beginning. And it looks this way still.
              > > >
              > > > Some things can be checked and some writings Paul Twitchell
              > > compiled /
              > > > copied / paraphrased from. However, imagination has always been a
              > > > source for what Eckankar and Eckists share.
              > > >
              > > > If what comes from "Eck Masters" on the inner is "real" I say it is
              > > > most likely real because people in their imaginations made it real.
              > > > Imaginations fed by stories concocted by people before them by
              > > > imagination and / or concocted deliberately for some other
              > > purposes.
              > > >
              > > > Imagination has and can bring many amazing things. Including many
              > > > inventions. So maybe it's better to call imagination the source of
              > > so
              > > > many spiritual teachings and not necessarily some largely anonymous
              > > > lineage, league, council, etc. of Masters hiding out in the
              > > background
              > > > of physical paintings, drawings and books?
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > prometheus wrote:
              > > >
              > > > It was a Bait and Switch
              > > > when most long-time EKists
              > > > were fooled. We were told
              > > > EKankar was a "Spiritual
              > > > Path" and not really a religion,
              > > > but we were told Twitchell
              > > > needed to play-the-game
              > > > to protect the outer org
              > > > and for the tax free benefits
              > > > in order for the EK teachings
              > > > to survive. Years after his
              > > > death we found out that
              > > > Twitchell lied about everything
              > > > and had been a liar for all
              > > > his life.
              > > >
              > > > Then, later, Klemp came
              > > > on the scene by tricking
              > > > Gross into thinking he could
              > > > be trusted and that there was
              > > > room at the top for two ECK
              > > > Masters. This is when the
              > > > big changes in direction took
              > > > place and ECKankar became
              > > > an "official religion" for all
              > > > ECKists to see and to promote.
              > > > And, it's when Klemp began
              > > > to introduce his dogmatic
              > > > leanings toward the Lutheran
              > > > Church with quotes from
              > > > the distorted King James
              > > > version of the Bible.
              > > >
              > > > Now, HK is still looking for
              > > > volunteers to bring in more
              > > > money. He'll say things like,
              > > > "You, as ECKists, are very
              > > > special messengers of the
              > > > Mahanta." Yet, Klemp can't
              > > > deliver because he's not a
              > > > God nor a Master. Feeling
              > > > "special" is a trap. It's pretend!
              > > >
              > > > ECKists are asked to imagine
              > > > and dream and convince them-
              > > > selves that reality is not this
              > > > life... it's more, therefore,
              > > > don't look here, look over
              > > > there! But, in the mean time,
              > > > EKists need to sell more books
              > > > and CDs/DVDs and all sorts
              > > > of crap which make the same
              > > > promises as before, but has
              > > > new wrappings and testimonials.
              > > > Klemp's KAL trap is one of
              > > > distraction and to keep EKies
              > > > busy so they don't have time
              > > > to think about anything except
              > > > ECKankar.
              > > >
              > > > Plus, the reasons for why
              > > > Klemp is pushing for ECKists
              > > > to volunteer so much and
              > > > read his books is easy to
              > > > understand once it is pointed
              > > > out:
              > > >
              > > > 1. His ego needs the accolades.
              > > > HK has to live up to his listing
              > > > in "The International Who's
              > > > Who of Intellectuals" which
              > > > he paid for!
              > > >
              > > > 2. He has to impress the
              > > > other preachers and holy
              > > > men, not only in the Chanhassen/
              > > > Minneapolis area, around
              > > > the world, as well as, his
              > > > low/loyal servants/followers.
              > > >
              > > > 3. Klemp receives 50%
              > > > royalties on everything with
              > > > his name on it, therefore,
              > > > he needs to push out more
              > > > and more merchandise.
              > > >
              > > > 4. I'm thinking that Klemp
              > > > wants to set some kind of
              > > > a record for writing the most
              > > > "books." His followers will
              > > > feel proud of him, he will
              > > > feel proud, and it gives a
              > > > false sense of validation
              > > > for what he's writing. Plus,
              > > > EKists will buy his redundant
              > > > newly packaged merchandise
              > > > adding money to his pockets
              > > > while taking money from them.
              > > > But, they're paying to feel
              > > > good, so, if not him it would
              > > > be something/someone else...
              > > > like family.
              > > >
              > > > 5. His books manipulate and
              > > > hypnotize his followers. It
              > > > keeps them living in delusion.
              > > >
              > > > 6. It's a way to recruit more
              > > > people which means more
              > > > volunteers and more money.
              > > > Remember, Klemp has said
              > > > "there's no free lunch in
              > > > Eckankar."
              > > >
              > > > Here's a video from David Lane
              > > > that points out that these fake
              > > > Masters, like Klemp, simply get
              > > > in the way of Soul's freedom to
              > > > Be and to grow. Why become
              > > > codependent upon a "Mahanta"
              > > > or anyone?
              > > >
              > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i6RjV4ltY0
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > > >
              > >
              >
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