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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] The Religion of ECKankar Is Much Like Others

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  • etznab@aol.com
    Apparently, a chief source for the Eckankar teachings has come from imagination. Even since the beginning. And it looks this way still. Some things can be
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 18, 2012
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      Apparently, a chief source for the Eckankar teachings has come from
      imagination. Even since the beginning. And it looks this way still.

      Some things can be checked and some writings Paul Twitchell compiled /
      copied / paraphrased from. However, imagination has always been a
      source for what Eckankar and Eckists share.

      If what comes from "Eck Masters" on the inner is "real" I say it is
      most likely real because people in their imaginations made it real.
      Imaginations fed by stories concocted by people before them by
      imagination and / or concocted deliberately for some other purposes.

      Imagination has and can bring many amazing things. Including many
      inventions. So maybe it's better to call imagination the source of so
      many spiritual teachings and not necessarily some largely anonymous
      lineage, league, council, etc. of Masters hiding out in the background
      of physical paintings, drawings and books?

      -----Original Message-----
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, Jun 18, 2012 12:37 pm
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] The Religion of ECKankar Is Much
      Like Others

       
      It was a Bait and Switch
      when most long-time EKists
      were fooled. We were told
      EKankar was a "Spiritual
      Path" and not really a religion,
      but we were told Twitchell
      needed to play-the-game
      to protect the outer org
      and for the tax free benefits
      in order for the EK teachings
      to survive. Years after his
      death we found out that
      Twitchell lied about everything
      and had been a liar for all
      his life.

      Then, later, Klemp came
      on the scene by tricking
      Gross into thinking he could
      be trusted and that there was
      room at the top for two ECK
      Masters. This is when the
      big changes in direction took
      place and ECKankar became
      an "official religion" for all
      ECKists to see and to promote.
      And, it's when Klemp began
      to introduce his dogmatic
      leanings toward the Lutheran
      Church with quotes from
      the distorted King James
      version of the Bible.

      Now, HK is still looking for
      volunteers to bring in more
      money. He'll say things like,
      "You, as ECKists, are very
      special messengers of the
      Mahanta." Yet, Klemp can't
      deliver because he's not a
      God nor a Master. Feeling
      "special" is a trap. It's pretend!

      ECKists are asked to imagine
      and dream and convince them-
      selves that reality is not this
      life... it's more, therefore,
      don't look here, look over
      there! But, in the mean time,
      EKists need to sell more books
      and CDs/DVDs and all sorts
      of crap which make the same
      promises as before, but has
      new wrappings and testimonials.
      Klemp's KAL trap is one of
      distraction and to keep EKies
      busy so they don't have time
      to think about anything except
      ECKankar.

      Plus, the reasons for why
      Klemp is pushing for ECKists
      to volunteer so much and
      read his books is easy to
      understand once it is pointed
      out:

      1. His ego needs the accolades.
      HK has to live up to his listing
      in "The International Who's
      Who of Intellectuals" which
      he paid for!

      2. He has to impress the
      other preachers and holy
      men, not only in the Chanhassen/
      Minneapolis area, around
      the world, as well as, his
      low/loyal servants/followers.

      3. Klemp receives 50%
      royalties on everything with
      his name on it, therefore,
      he needs to push out more
      and more merchandise.

      4. I'm thinking that Klemp
      wants to set some kind of
      a record for writing the most
      "books." His followers will
      feel proud of him, he will
      feel proud, and it gives a
      false sense of validation
      for what he's writing. Plus,
      EKists will buy his redundant
      newly packaged merchandise
      adding money to his pockets
      while taking money from them.
      But, they're paying to feel
      good, so, if not him it would
      be something/someone else...
      like family.

      5. His books manipulate and
      hypnotize his followers. It
      keeps them living in delusion.

      6. It's a way to recruit more
      people which means more
      volunteers and more money.
      Remember, Klemp has said
      "there's no free lunch in
      Eckankar."

      Here's a video from David Lane
      that points out that these fake
      Masters, like Klemp, simply get
      in the way of Soul's freedom to
      Be and to grow. Why become
      codependent upon a "Mahanta"
      or anyone?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i6RjV4ltY0

      Prometheus
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Etznab and All, Thanks for the post. It was right on! I m beginning to think that Klemp might be schizophrenic along with a few other psychosis. For one
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 18, 2012
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        Hello Etznab and All,
        Thanks for the post.
        It was right on! I'm
        beginning to think
        that Klemp might be
        schizophrenic along
        with a few other psychosis.

        For one thing, it's clear
        that Klemp and his inner
        circle are aware that he's
        not in control of anyone
        or anything except his
        own followers, and that's
        limited too. The effects of
        what HK says works like
        Voo Doo. It takes a true
        believer to give his words
        power. Thus, Klemp is
        more the carnival hypnotist
        as he programs via repeated
        suggestions in order to have
        his puppets act, talk, and
        believe in a certain way.
        ECKists are like chickens
        in a hen house while HK is
        the fox guarding it in their
        dreams.

        IMO, half of Klemp knows
        he's a fraud and the other
        half is thinking that fate
        has given him some magical
        powers... and to be a messenger
        of hope and for the good
        of mankind. Basically, he's
        scamming ECKists out of
        their time and money like
        other religious leaders are
        doing with their followers.
        And, there are probably
        the same proportion of
        EKists who are hypocrites
        and heretics as with all
        religions. This doesn't make
        any ECKist "special" only
        average. But, their egos
        need to feel "special" in
        order to believe all the lies!

        Prometheus




        etznab wrote:
        Apparently, a chief source for the Eckankar teachings has come from
        imagination. Even since the beginning. And it looks this way still.

        Some things can be checked and some writings Paul Twitchell compiled /
        copied / paraphrased from. However, imagination has always been a
        source for what Eckankar and Eckists share.

        If what comes from "Eck Masters" on the inner is "real" I say it is
        most likely real because people in their imaginations made it real.
        Imaginations fed by stories concocted by people before them by
        imagination and / or concocted deliberately for some other purposes.

        Imagination has and can bring many amazing things. Including many
        inventions. So maybe it's better to call imagination the source of so
        many spiritual teachings and not necessarily some largely anonymous
        lineage, league, council, etc. of Masters hiding out in the background
        of physical paintings, drawings and books?


        prometheus wrote:

        It was a Bait and Switch
        when most long-time EKists
        were fooled. We were told
        EKankar was a "Spiritual
        Path" and not really a religion,
        but we were told Twitchell
        needed to play-the-game
        to protect the outer org
        and for the tax free benefits
        in order for the EK teachings
        to survive. Years after his
        death we found out that
        Twitchell lied about everything
        and had been a liar for all
        his life.

        Then, later, Klemp came
        on the scene by tricking
        Gross into thinking he could
        be trusted and that there was
        room at the top for two ECK
        Masters. This is when the
        big changes in direction took
        place and ECKankar became
        an "official religion" for all
        ECKists to see and to promote.
        And, it's when Klemp began
        to introduce his dogmatic
        leanings toward the Lutheran
        Church with quotes from
        the distorted King James
        version of the Bible.

        Now, HK is still looking for
        volunteers to bring in more
        money. He'll say things like,
        "You, as ECKists, are very
        special messengers of the
        Mahanta." Yet, Klemp can't
        deliver because he's not a
        God nor a Master. Feeling
        "special" is a trap. It's pretend!

        ECKists are asked to imagine
        and dream and convince them-
        selves that reality is not this
        life... it's more, therefore,
        don't look here, look over
        there! But, in the mean time,
        EKists need to sell more books
        and CDs/DVDs and all sorts
        of crap which make the same
        promises as before, but has
        new wrappings and testimonials.
        Klemp's KAL trap is one of
        distraction and to keep EKies
        busy so they don't have time
        to think about anything except
        ECKankar.

        Plus, the reasons for why
        Klemp is pushing for ECKists
        to volunteer so much and
        read his books is easy to
        understand once it is pointed
        out:

        1. His ego needs the accolades.
        HK has to live up to his listing
        in "The International Who's
        Who of Intellectuals" which
        he paid for!

        2. He has to impress the
        other preachers and holy
        men, not only in the Chanhassen/
        Minneapolis area, around
        the world, as well as, his
        low/loyal servants/followers.

        3. Klemp receives 50%
        royalties on everything with
        his name on it, therefore,
        he needs to push out more
        and more merchandise.

        4. I'm thinking that Klemp
        wants to set some kind of
        a record for writing the most
        "books." His followers will
        feel proud of him, he will
        feel proud, and it gives a
        false sense of validation
        for what he's writing. Plus,
        EKists will buy his redundant
        newly packaged merchandise
        adding money to his pockets
        while taking money from them.
        But, they're paying to feel
        good, so, if not him it would
        be something/someone else...
        like family.

        5. His books manipulate and
        hypnotize his followers. It
        keeps them living in delusion.

        6. It's a way to recruit more
        people which means more
        volunteers and more money.
        Remember, Klemp has said
        "there's no free lunch in
        Eckankar."

        Here's a video from David Lane
        that points out that these fake
        Masters, like Klemp, simply get
        in the way of Soul's freedom to
        Be and to grow. Why become
        codependent upon a "Mahanta"
        or anyone?

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i6RjV4ltY0

        Prometheus
      • harrisonferrel
        When I first got out of eckankar many years ago I too contemplated (forgive the term) whether Klemp was deluded, a nutjob or some other kind of lunatic. My
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 11 4:11 PM
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          When I first got out of eckankar many years ago I too contemplated (forgive the term) whether Klemp was deluded, a nutjob or some other kind of lunatic. My conclusion is this: He is full of shit, knows he is full of shit and many of his followers knows he is full of shit. Most eckists think he's god incarnate. I have to imagine he could be a sociopath because if he had a conscience he would clearly have a difficult time living with himself for years on end spewing the same outrageous, absurd lies. He threatens people, writes dribble, creates a "lexicon" by merely changing the definitions of real words to suit his cult, and he imparts blessings on people. Think about it. It takes a nutjob to do this sort of thing.

          I only wished that I trusted my instincts before I ever got involved in eckankar more than 20 years ago after reading Twitchell's nonsense and hearing his illiterate, backwoods rhetoric. This was before I even knew there was a Harold Klemp.

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Etznab and All,
          > Thanks for the post.
          > It was right on! I'm
          > beginning to think
          > that Klemp might be
          > schizophrenic along
          > with a few other psychosis.
          >
          > For one thing, it's clear
          > that Klemp and his inner
          > circle are aware that he's
          > not in control of anyone
          > or anything except his
          > own followers, and that's
          > limited too. The effects of
          > what HK says works like
          > Voo Doo. It takes a true
          > believer to give his words
          > power. Thus, Klemp is
          > more the carnival hypnotist
          > as he programs via repeated
          > suggestions in order to have
          > his puppets act, talk, and
          > believe in a certain way.
          > ECKists are like chickens
          > in a hen house while HK is
          > the fox guarding it in their
          > dreams.
          >
          > IMO, half of Klemp knows
          > he's a fraud and the other
          > half is thinking that fate
          > has given him some magical
          > powers... and to be a messenger
          > of hope and for the good
          > of mankind. Basically, he's
          > scamming ECKists out of
          > their time and money like
          > other religious leaders are
          > doing with their followers.
          > And, there are probably
          > the same proportion of
          > EKists who are hypocrites
          > and heretics as with all
          > religions. This doesn't make
          > any ECKist "special" only
          > average. But, their egos
          > need to feel "special" in
          > order to believe all the lies!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > etznab wrote:
          > Apparently, a chief source for the Eckankar teachings has come from
          > imagination. Even since the beginning. And it looks this way still.
          >
          > Some things can be checked and some writings Paul Twitchell compiled /
          > copied / paraphrased from. However, imagination has always been a
          > source for what Eckankar and Eckists share.
          >
          > If what comes from "Eck Masters" on the inner is "real" I say it is
          > most likely real because people in their imaginations made it real.
          > Imaginations fed by stories concocted by people before them by
          > imagination and / or concocted deliberately for some other purposes.
          >
          > Imagination has and can bring many amazing things. Including many
          > inventions. So maybe it's better to call imagination the source of so
          > many spiritual teachings and not necessarily some largely anonymous
          > lineage, league, council, etc. of Masters hiding out in the background
          > of physical paintings, drawings and books?
          >
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          >
          > It was a Bait and Switch
          > when most long-time EKists
          > were fooled. We were told
          > EKankar was a "Spiritual
          > Path" and not really a religion,
          > but we were told Twitchell
          > needed to play-the-game
          > to protect the outer org
          > and for the tax free benefits
          > in order for the EK teachings
          > to survive. Years after his
          > death we found out that
          > Twitchell lied about everything
          > and had been a liar for all
          > his life.
          >
          > Then, later, Klemp came
          > on the scene by tricking
          > Gross into thinking he could
          > be trusted and that there was
          > room at the top for two ECK
          > Masters. This is when the
          > big changes in direction took
          > place and ECKankar became
          > an "official religion" for all
          > ECKists to see and to promote.
          > And, it's when Klemp began
          > to introduce his dogmatic
          > leanings toward the Lutheran
          > Church with quotes from
          > the distorted King James
          > version of the Bible.
          >
          > Now, HK is still looking for
          > volunteers to bring in more
          > money. He'll say things like,
          > "You, as ECKists, are very
          > special messengers of the
          > Mahanta." Yet, Klemp can't
          > deliver because he's not a
          > God nor a Master. Feeling
          > "special" is a trap. It's pretend!
          >
          > ECKists are asked to imagine
          > and dream and convince them-
          > selves that reality is not this
          > life... it's more, therefore,
          > don't look here, look over
          > there! But, in the mean time,
          > EKists need to sell more books
          > and CDs/DVDs and all sorts
          > of crap which make the same
          > promises as before, but has
          > new wrappings and testimonials.
          > Klemp's KAL trap is one of
          > distraction and to keep EKies
          > busy so they don't have time
          > to think about anything except
          > ECKankar.
          >
          > Plus, the reasons for why
          > Klemp is pushing for ECKists
          > to volunteer so much and
          > read his books is easy to
          > understand once it is pointed
          > out:
          >
          > 1. His ego needs the accolades.
          > HK has to live up to his listing
          > in "The International Who's
          > Who of Intellectuals" which
          > he paid for!
          >
          > 2. He has to impress the
          > other preachers and holy
          > men, not only in the Chanhassen/
          > Minneapolis area, around
          > the world, as well as, his
          > low/loyal servants/followers.
          >
          > 3. Klemp receives 50%
          > royalties on everything with
          > his name on it, therefore,
          > he needs to push out more
          > and more merchandise.
          >
          > 4. I'm thinking that Klemp
          > wants to set some kind of
          > a record for writing the most
          > "books." His followers will
          > feel proud of him, he will
          > feel proud, and it gives a
          > false sense of validation
          > for what he's writing. Plus,
          > EKists will buy his redundant
          > newly packaged merchandise
          > adding money to his pockets
          > while taking money from them.
          > But, they're paying to feel
          > good, so, if not him it would
          > be something/someone else...
          > like family.
          >
          > 5. His books manipulate and
          > hypnotize his followers. It
          > keeps them living in delusion.
          >
          > 6. It's a way to recruit more
          > people which means more
          > volunteers and more money.
          > Remember, Klemp has said
          > "there's no free lunch in
          > Eckankar."
          >
          > Here's a video from David Lane
          > that points out that these fake
          > Masters, like Klemp, simply get
          > in the way of Soul's freedom to
          > Be and to grow. Why become
          > codependent upon a "Mahanta"
          > or anyone?
          >
          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i6RjV4ltY0
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
        • Janice Pfeiffer
          I had already seen what a room full of psychics could produce before I became an eckist.   Eckist are busy reinforcing what the lem says so then they all
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 12 8:40 PM
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            I had already seen what a room full of psychics could produce before I became an eckist.   Eckist are busy reinforcing what the lem says so then they all are convinced it is so.  In my early days of eckankar I dreamed about the lem and other masters. Marvelous things did I see in my dreams.  I believe that was because I was influenced by what I read and what other eckist said.  I wanted to believe.  Near the end of my days in eckankar, my dreams concerning these eckist and the eck masters got really distorted.  They and the masters were doing weird and sometimes terrible things in my dreams.  As I fell away more and more, the worse my dreams about eckankar became.  The dreams about such things stopped all together once I was out.  I was no longer influenced by it. 
             
            Klemp is probably still just as delusional as the day he stripped in public and was locked up for it.  He believes he is the true lem.  From everything I have read the only real strong trait he has is that he is intolerant of other people.  This is then passed off as his being overly susceptible to things because of his great burden of carrying all those karma ridden chelas. 
             
             Klemp is uninspiring as a leader and for a god man seems to have no inclination toward creativity.  He like Paul, takes from any source he can and since he was a long term Lutheran, he relies on that experience the most. 
             
            In short, I believe that eckist suffer from mass hypnosis because of their strong belief in the all knowing powers of their dull witted lem.  How else could you explain why so many would find some one so nondescript to be worthy of that kind of devotion.  They see what they want to see. 

            --- On Wed, 7/11/12, harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...> wrote:

            From: harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A Delusional Conman?
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2012, 11:11 PM

             
            When I first got out of eckankar many years ago I too contemplated (forgive the term) whether Klemp was deluded, a nutjob or some other kind of lunatic. My conclusion is this: He is full of shit, knows he is full of shit and many of his followers knows he is full of shit. Most eckists think he's god incarnate. I have to imagine he could be a sociopath because if he had a conscience he would clearly have a difficult time living with himself for years on end spewing the same outrageous, absurd lies. He threatens people, writes dribble, creates a "lexicon" by merely changing the definitions of real words to suit his cult, and he imparts blessings on people. Think about it. It takes a nutjob to do this sort of thing.

            I only wished that I trusted my instincts before I ever got involved in eckankar more than 20 years ago after reading Twitchell's nonsense and hearing his illiterate, backwoods rhetoric. This was before I even knew there was a Harold Klemp.

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Etznab and All,
            > Thanks for the post.
            > It was right on! I'm
            > beginning to think
            > that Klemp might be
            > schizophrenic along
            > with a few other psychosis.
            >
            > For one thing, it's clear
            > that Klemp and his inner
            > circle are aware that he's
            > not in control of anyone
            > or anything except his
            > own followers, and that's
            > limited too. The effects of
            > what HK says works like
            > Voo Doo. It takes a true
            > believer to give his words
            > power. Thus, Klemp is
            > more the carnival hypnotist
            > as he programs via repeated
            > suggestions in order to have
            > his puppets act, talk, and
            > believe in a certain way.
            > ECKists are like chickens
            > in a hen house while HK is
            > the fox guarding it in their
            > dreams.
            >
            > IMO, half of Klemp knows
            > he's a fraud and the other
            > half is thinking that fate
            > has given him some magical
            > powers... and to be a messenger
            > of hope and for the good
            > of mankind. Basically, he's
            > scamming ECKists out of
            > their time and money like
            > other religious leaders are
            > doing with their followers.
            > And, there are probably
            > the same proportion of
            > EKists who are hypocrites
            > and heretics as with all
            > religions. This doesn't make
            > any ECKist "special" only
            > average. But, their egos
            > need to feel "special" in
            > order to believe all the lies!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > etznab wrote:
            > Apparently, a chief source for the Eckankar teachings has come from
            > imagination. Even since the beginning. And it looks this way still.
            >
            > Some things can be checked and some writings Paul Twitchell compiled /
            > copied / paraphrased from. However, imagination has always been a
            > source for what Eckankar and Eckists share.
            >
            > If what comes from "Eck Masters" on the inner is "real" I say it is
            > most likely real because people in their imaginations made it real.
            > Imaginations fed by stories concocted by people before them by
            > imagination and / or concocted deliberately for some other purposes.
            >
            > Imagination has and can bring many amazing things. Including many
            > inventions. So maybe it's better to call imagination the source of so
            > many spiritual teachings and not necessarily some largely anonymous
            > lineage, league, council, etc. of Masters hiding out in the background
            > of physical paintings, drawings and books?
            >
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            >
            > It was a Bait and Switch
            > when most long-time EKists
            > were fooled. We were told
            > EKankar was a "Spiritual
            > Path" and not really a religion,
            > but we were told Twitchell
            > needed to play-the-game
            > to protect the outer org
            > and for the tax free benefits
            > in order for the EK teachings
            > to survive. Years after his
            > death we found out that
            > Twitchell lied about everything
            > and had been a liar for all
            > his life.
            >
            > Then, later, Klemp came
            > on the scene by tricking
            > Gross into thinking he could
            > be trusted and that there was
            > room at the top for two ECK
            > Masters. This is when the
            > big changes in direction took
            > place and ECKankar became
            > an "official religion" for all
            > ECKists to see and to promote.
            > And, it's when Klemp began
            > to introduce his dogmatic
            > leanings toward the Lutheran
            > Church with quotes from
            > the distorted King James
            > version of the Bible.
            >
            > Now, HK is still looking for
            > volunteers to bring in more
            > money. He'll say things like,
            > "You, as ECKists, are very
            > special messengers of the
            > Mahanta." Yet, Klemp can't
            > deliver because he's not a
            > God nor a Master. Feeling
            > "special" is a trap. It's pretend!
            >
            > ECKists are asked to imagine
            > and dream and convince them-
            > selves that reality is not this
            > life... it's more, therefore,
            > don't look here, look over
            > there! But, in the mean time,
            > EKists need to sell more books
            > and CDs/DVDs and all sorts
            > of crap which make the same
            > promises as before, but has
            > new wrappings and testimonials.
            > Klemp's KAL trap is one of
            > distraction and to keep EKies
            > busy so they don't have time
            > to think about anything except
            > ECKankar.
            >
            > Plus, the reasons for why
            > Klemp is pushing for ECKists
            > to volunteer so much and
            > read his books is easy to
            > understand once it is pointed
            > out:
            >
            > 1. His ego needs the accolades.
            > HK has to live up to his listing
            > in "The International Who's
            > Who of Intellectuals" which
            > he paid for!
            >
            > 2. He has to impress the
            > other preachers and holy
            > men, not only in the Chanhassen/
            > Minneapolis area, around
            > the world, as well as, his
            > low/loyal servants/followers.
            >
            > 3. Klemp receives 50%
            > royalties on everything with
            > his name on it, therefore,
            > he needs to push out more
            > and more merchandise.
            >
            > 4. I'm thinking that Klemp
            > wants to set some kind of
            > a record for writing the most
            > "books." His followers will
            > feel proud of him, he will
            > feel proud, and it gives a
            > false sense of validation
            > for what he's writing. Plus,
            > EKists will buy his redundant
            > newly packaged merchandise
            > adding money to his pockets
            > while taking money from them.
            > But, they're paying to feel
            > good, so, if not him it would
            > be something/someone else...
            > like family.
            >
            > 5. His books manipulate and
            > hypnotize his followers. It
            > keeps them living in delusion.
            >
            > 6. It's a way to recruit more
            > people which means more
            > volunteers and more money.
            > Remember, Klemp has said
            > "there's no free lunch in
            > Eckankar."
            >
            > Here's a video from David Lane
            > that points out that these fake
            > Masters, like Klemp, simply get
            > in the way of Soul's freedom to
            > Be and to grow. Why become
            > codependent upon a "Mahanta"
            > or anyone?
            >
            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i6RjV4ltY0
            >
            > Prometheus
            >

          • etznab@aol.com
            The power of suggestion can influence one s dreams. I am convinced of this. A lot of times my dreams will reflect what was playing on TV just before bed. If
            Message 5 of 9 , Jul 12 9:13 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              The power of suggestion can influence one's dreams. I am convinced of
              this. A lot of times my dreams will reflect what was playing on TV just
              before bed. If not that, then they would be involved with what was on
              my mind just before sleep. I think it's a natural process for the mind
              to sort out experiences during the day. People actually re-live some of
              that stuff that went on during the day.

              Now if a person reads an Eck book and has Eck Masters on the brain just
              before bed, I don't see it unusual people would find these things
              turning up on the inner and in dreams.

              Perhaps one of the misunderstandings people have is that anything not a
              symbolical dream is a "real" experience. As if all vivid dreams and
              inner experiences are somehow more real compared with dreams that don't
              make sense because the information is scrambled, or symbolic.

              I never thought about this much, but I think delusions can be very
              vivid too. Especially when the subconscious is involved; and anything
              like inner planes. Moreover, on the inner planes entities can probably
              take various forms in order to influence the dreamer. The entities need
              not be some other thing outside the individual, but could be entities
              created by the individual instead. Like memes, or facimilies.
              Personally created, or borrowed from others.

              What I would really like to know more than anything else is what Paul
              Twitchell's original works and manuscripts show about his Eck Masters.
              Rebazar Tarzs chief among them. However, as I did not write the script
              and haven't the originals all I can do is read and listen to what was
              put in Eckankar books and Eckankar people say; which, IMO doesn't
              automatically equate with truth. Knowing the truth is the only way to
              purge the fictional characters though, IMO. Because so long as an
              inkling of belief in fiction as literal truth remains, I suspect people
              will be subject to an extent. At the same time, I think enough history
              remains to describe the truth more accurately. History like what exists
              in the Vatican archives though, and what so many are not allowed to
              see.

              Recently I was reminded that both Doug Marman and Harold Klemp probably
              knew about things many years ago. However, I think they chose to let
              some of the myths remain on account of the power and influence they can
              have over people that believe.

              ***

              a.r.e. repost ...

              Oh well, What the heck. I searched for just a little bit on the Net
              (about three minutes) when I found something of relevance. Here's a
              short excerpt to give the gist of what it's about.

              "As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has
              become misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I
              know that some could say that I am just offering another
              interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
              The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
              whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
              gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite
              straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
              swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
              with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
              clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library
              dream as well."

              http://www.mombu.com/religion/eckankar/t-another-question-for-doug-god-sense-books-clear-office-13150495.html

              I tried to find the original T.S. post for a time frame when Doug wrote
              that. It appears to be early 2004. See January 3rd, 2004 post: Response
              to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman

              http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144

              ***

              https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8_wBxuhcsJg



              -----Original Message-----
              From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:40 pm
              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
              Delusional Conman?

               
              I had already seen what a room full of psychics could produce before I
              became an eckist.   Eckist are busy reinforcing what the lem says
              so then they all are convinced it is so.  In my early days of eckankar
              I dreamed about the lem and other masters. Marvelous things did I see
              in my dreams.  I believe that was because I was influenced by what I
              read and what other eckist said.  I wanted to believe.  Near the end of
              my days in eckankar, my dreams concerning these eckist and the eck
              masters got really distorted.  They and the masters were doing weird
              and sometimes terrible things in my dreams.  As I fell away more and
              more, the worse my dreams about eckankar became.  The dreams about such
              things stopped all together once I was out.  I was no longer influenced
              by it. 
               
              Klemp is probably still just as delusional as the day he stripped in
              public and was locked up for it.  He believes he is the true lem.  From
              everything I have read the only real strong trait he has is that he is
              intolerant of other people.  This is then passed off as his being
              overly susceptible to things because of his great burden of carrying
              all those karma ridden chelas. 
               
               Klemp is uninspiring as a leader and for a god man seems to have no
              inclination toward creativity.  He like Paul, takes from any source he
              can and since he was a long term Lutheran, he relies on that experience
              the most. 
               
              In short, I believe that eckist suffer from mass hypnosis because of
              their strong belief in the all knowing powers of their dull witted
              lem.  How else could you explain why so many would find some one
              so nondescript to be worthy of that kind of devotion.  They see what
              they want to see. 

              --- On Wed, 7/11/12, harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...>
              wrote:


              From: harrisonferrel <harrisonferrel@...>
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
              Delusional Conman?
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2012, 11:11 PM

                When I first got out of eckankar many years ago I too contemplated
              (forgive the term) whether Klemp was deluded, a nutjob or some other
              kind of lunatic. My conclusion is this: He is full of shit, knows he is
              full of shit and many of his followers knows he is full of shit. Most
              eckists think he's god incarnate. I have to imagine he could be a
              sociopath because if he had a conscience he would clearly have a
              difficult time living with himself for years on end spewing the same
              outrageous, absurd lies. He threatens people, writes dribble, creates a
              "lexicon" by merely changing the definitions of real words to suit his
              cult, and he imparts blessings on people. Think about it. It takes a
              nutjob to do this sort of thing.

              I only wished that I trusted my instincts before I ever got involved in
              eckankar more than 20 years ago after reading Twitchell's nonsense and
              hearing his illiterate, backwoods rhetoric. This was before I even knew
              there was a Harold Klemp.

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
              <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Etznab and All,
              > Thanks for the post.
              > It was right on! I'm
              > beginning to think
              > that Klemp might be
              > schizophrenic along
              > with a few other psychosis.
              >
              > For one thing, it's clear
              > that Klemp and his inner
              > circle are aware that he's
              > not in control of anyone
              > or anything except his
              > own followers, and that's
              > limited too. The effects of
              > what HK says works like
              > Voo Doo. It takes a true
              > believer to give his words
              > power. Thus, Klemp is
              > more the carnival hypnotist
              > as he programs via repeated
              > suggestions in order to have
              > his puppets act, talk, and
              > believe in a certain way.
              > ECKists are like chickens
              > in a hen house while HK is
              > the fox guarding it in their
              > dreams.
              >
              > IMO, half of Klemp knows
              > he's a fraud and the other
              > half is thinking that fate
              > has given him some magical
              > powers... and to be a messenger
              > of hope and for the good
              > of mankind. Basically, he's
              > scamming ECKists out of
              > their time and money like
              > other religious leaders are
              > doing with their followers.
              > And, there are probably
              > the same proportion of
              > EKists who are hypocrites
              > and heretics as with all
              > religions. This doesn't make
              > any ECKist "special" only
              > average. But, their egos
              > need to feel "special" in
              > order to believe all the lies!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > etznab wrote:
              > Apparently, a chief source for the Eckankar teachings has come from
              > imagination. Even since the beginning. And it looks this way still.
              >
              > Some things can be checked and some writings Paul Twitchell
              compiled /
              > copied / paraphrased from. However, imagination has always been a
              > source for what Eckankar and Eckists share.
              >
              > If what comes from "Eck Masters" on the inner is "real" I say it is
              > most likely real because people in their imaginations made it real.
              > Imaginations fed by stories concocted by people before them by
              > imagination and / or concocted deliberately for some other
              purposes.
              >
              > Imagination has and can bring many amazing things. Including many
              > inventions. So maybe it's better to call imagination the source of
              so
              > many spiritual teachings and not necessarily some largely anonymous
              > lineage, league, council, etc. of Masters hiding out in the
              background
              > of physical paintings, drawings and books?
              >
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              >
              > It was a Bait and Switch
              > when most long-time EKists
              > were fooled. We were told
              > EKankar was a "Spiritual
              > Path" and not really a religion,
              > but we were told Twitchell
              > needed to play-the-game
              > to protect the outer org
              > and for the tax free benefits
              > in order for the EK teachings
              > to survive. Years after his
              > death we found out that
              > Twitchell lied about everything
              > and had been a liar for all
              > his life.
              >
              > Then, later, Klemp came
              > on the scene by tricking
              > Gross into thinking he could
              > be trusted and that there was
              > room at the top for two ECK
              > Masters. This is when the
              > big changes in direction took
              > place and ECKankar became
              > an "official religion" for all
              > ECKists to see and to promote.
              > And, it's when Klemp began
              > to introduce his dogmatic
              > leanings toward the Lutheran
              > Church with quotes from
              > the distorted King James
              > version of the Bible.
              >
              > Now, HK is still looking for
              > volunteers to bring in more
              > money. He'll say things like,
              > "You, as ECKists, are very
              > special messengers of the
              > Mahanta." Yet, Klemp can't
              > deliver because he's not a
              > God nor a Master. Feeling
              > "special" is a trap. It's pretend!
              >
              > ECKists are asked to imagine
              > and dream and convince them-
              > selves that reality is not this
              > life... it's more, therefore,
              > don't look here, look over
              > there! But, in the mean time,
              > EKists need to sell more books
              > and CDs/DVDs and all sorts
              > of crap which make the same
              > promises as before, but has
              > new wrappings and testimonials.
              > Klemp's KAL trap is one of
              > distraction and to keep EKies
              > busy so they don't have time
              > to think about anything except
              > ECKankar.
              >
              > Plus, the reasons for why
              > Klemp is pushing for ECKists
              > to volunteer so much and
              > read his books is easy to
              > understand once it is pointed
              > out:
              >
              > 1. His ego needs the accolades.
              > HK has to live up to his listing
              > in "The International Who's
              > Who of Intellectuals" which
              > he paid for!
              >
              > 2. He has to impress the
              > other preachers and holy
              > men, not only in the Chanhassen/
              > Minneapolis area, around
              > the world, as well as, his
              > low/loyal servants/followers.
              >
              > 3. Klemp receives 50%
              > royalties on everything with
              > his name on it, therefore,
              > he needs to push out more
              > and more merchandise.
              >
              > 4. I'm thinking that Klemp
              > wants to set some kind of
              > a record for writing the most
              > "books." His followers will
              > feel proud of him, he will
              > feel proud, and it gives a
              > false sense of validation
              > for what he's writing. Plus,
              > EKists will buy his redundant
              > newly packaged merchandise
              > adding money to his pockets
              > while taking money from them.
              > But, they're paying to feel
              > good, so, if not him it would
              > be something/someone else...
              > like family.
              >
              > 5. His books manipulate and
              > hypnotize his followers. It
              > keeps them living in delusion.
              >
              > 6. It's a way to recruit more
              > people which means more
              > volunteers and more money.
              > Remember, Klemp has said
              > "there's no free lunch in
              > Eckankar."
              >
              > Here's a video from David Lane
              > that points out that these fake
              > Masters, like Klemp, simply get
              > in the way of Soul's freedom to
              > Be and to grow. Why become
              > codependent upon a "Mahanta"
              > or anyone?
              >
              > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i6RjV4ltY0
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
            • Janice Pfeiffer
              I believe dreams have multiple purposes in our lives.  I too have had dreams that were triggered by something that happened during the day.  Even a small
              Message 6 of 9 , Jul 12 10:28 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                I believe dreams have multiple purposes in our lives.  I too have had dreams that were triggered by something that happened during the day.  Even a small insignificant thing could reappear in the dream state.   Most of the time, this kind of dream wouldn't make a lot of sense.  It would come across like a random conglomeration of ideas that merged into something senseless. 
                 
                Then I have had what is called lucid dreams in which I experienced sight, sound, smells and taste.  I'd feel truly alive and could even experience pain or pleasure.  These dreams were meaningful and usually brought about some new insight. 
                 
                I believe the first kind of dream is just a stress reliever.  Just as we use movies, TV, music or physical activity to distract us from lifes stressors, our brains may need to let go with a little nonsensical play on its own.  And thus the mixed up dream comes about.
                 
                But the lucid dream seems to be a whole different matter.  From these I always woke with something of lasting value.  These dreams had purpose.  Some I viewed as a gift.  Others imparted something of importance to me that maybe I wasn't paying real attention to in the waking state.  A few times I met people who had past away and had the chance to say the things that went unsaid in life.
                 
                Our dreams may be just unrecognized parts of ourselves.  I kind of think that since there is so much of our brain that we don't use on a day to day basis, it can and doesl activate to impart to us things of value at time, unprompted by anything going on in our daily lives.  The subject of the lucid dreams usually was not prompted by anything that happened previously.  These seem to come out of left field.
                 
                Anyway, for me these things have value and often give me things I can treasure.
                 
                There is so much about us as beings that we can't fully understand.  The reason for our dreams may be one of them.  Are we capable of time travel in dreams?  Can we go places we can't in waking life?  Can we communicate with others in them?  I don't really know but I find purpose in my dreams at times.  That's enough for me.

                --- On Fri, 7/13/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

                From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A Delusional Conman?
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, July 13, 2012, 4:13 AM

                 
                The power of suggestion can influence one's dreams. I am convinced of
                this. A lot of times my dreams will reflect what was playing on TV just
                before bed. If not that, then they would be involved with what was on
                my mind just before sleep. I think it's a natural process for the mind
                to sort out experiences during the day. People actually re-live some of
                that stuff that went on during the day.

                Now if a person reads an Eck book and has Eck Masters on the brain just
                before bed, I don't see it unusual people would find these things
                turning up on the inner and in dreams.

                Perhaps one of the misunderstandings people have is that anything not a
                symbolical dream is a "real" experience. As if all vivid dreams and
                inner experiences are somehow more real compared with dreams that don't
                make sense because the information is scrambled, or symbolic.

                I never thought about this much, but I think delusions can be very
                vivid too. Especially when the subconscious is involved; and anything
                like inner planes. Moreover, on the inner planes entities can probably
                take various forms in order to influence the dreamer. The entities need
                not be some other thing outside the individual, but could be entities
                created by the individual instead. Like memes, or facimilies.
                Personally created, or borrowed from others.

                What I would really like to know more than anything else is what Paul
                Twitchell's original works and manuscripts show about his Eck Masters.
                Rebazar Tarzs chief among them. However, as I did not write the script
                and haven't the originals all I can do is read and listen to what was
                put in Eckankar books and Eckankar people say; which, IMO doesn't
                automatically equate with truth. Knowing the truth is the only way to
                purge the fictional characters though, IMO. Because so long as an
                inkling of belief in fiction as literal truth remains, I suspect people
                will be subject to an extent. At the same time, I think enough history
                remains to describe the truth more accurately. History like what exists
                in the Vatican archives though, and what so many are not allowed to
                see.

                Recently I was reminded that both Doug Marman and Harold Klemp probably
                knew about things many years ago. However, I think they chose to let
                some of the myths remain on account of the power and influence they can
                have over people that believe.

                ***

                a.r.e. repost ...

                Oh well, What the heck. I searched for just a little bit on the Net
                (about three minutes) when I found something of relevance. Here's a
                short excerpt to give the gist of what it's about.

                "As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has
                become misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I
                know that some could say that I am just offering another
                interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
                The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
                whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
                gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite
                straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
                swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
                with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
                clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library
                dream as well."

                http://www.mombu.com/religion/eckankar/t-another-question-for-doug-god-sense-books-clear-office-13150495.html

                I tried to find the original T.S. post for a time frame when Doug wrote
                that. It appears to be early 2004. See January 3rd, 2004 post: Response
                to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman

                http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144

                ***

                https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8_wBxuhcsJg

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:40 pm
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
                Delusional Conman?

                 
                I had already seen what a room full of psychics could produce before I
                became an eckist.   Eckist are busy reinforcing what the lem says
                so then they all are convinced it is so.  In my early days of eckankar
                I dreamed about the lem and other masters. Marvelous things did I see
                in my dreams.  I believe that was because I was influenced by what I
                read and what other eckist said.  I wanted to believe.  Near the end of
                my days in eckankar, my dreams concerning these eckist and the eck
                masters got really distorted.  They and the masters were doing weird
                and sometimes terrible things in my dreams.  As I fell away more and
                more, the worse my dreams about eckankar became.  The dreams about such
                things stopped all together once I was out.  I was no longer influenced
                by it. 
                 
                Klemp is probably still just as delusional as the day he stripped in
                public and was locked up for it.  He believes he is the true lem.  From
                everything I have read the only real strong trait he has is that he is
                intolerant of other people.  This is then passed off as his being
                overly susceptible to things because of his great burden of carrying
                all those karma ridden chelas. 
                 
                 Klemp is uninspiring as a leader and for a god man seems to have no
                inclination toward creativity.  He like Paul, takes from any source he
                can and since he was a long term Lutheran, he relies on that experience
                the most. 
                 
                In short, I believe that eckist suffer from mass hypnosis because of
                their strong belief in the all knowing powers of their dull witted
                lem.  How else could you explain why so many would find some one
                so nondescript to be worthy of that kind of devotion.  They see what
                they want to see. 

                --- On Wed, 7/11/12, harrisonferrel &lt;harrisonferrel@...&gt;
                wrote:

                From: harrisonferrel &lt;harrisonferrel@...&gt;
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
                Delusional Conman?
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2012, 11:11 PM

                  When I first got out of eckankar many years ago I too contemplated
                (forgive the term) whether Klemp was deluded, a nutjob or some other
                kind of lunatic. My conclusion is this: He is full of shit, knows he is
                full of shit and many of his followers knows he is full of shit. Most
                eckists think he's god incarnate. I have to imagine he could be a
                sociopath because if he had a conscience he would clearly have a
                difficult time living with himself for years on end spewing the same
                outrageous, absurd lies. He threatens people, writes dribble, creates a
                "lexicon" by merely changing the definitions of real words to suit his
                cult, and he imparts blessings on people. Think about it. It takes a
                nutjob to do this sort of thing.

                I only wished that I trusted my instincts before I ever got involved in
                eckankar more than 20 years ago after reading Twitchell's nonsense and
                hearing his illiterate, backwoods rhetoric. This was before I even knew
                there was a Harold Klemp.

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                &lt;prometheus_973@...&gt; wrote:
                &gt;
                &gt; Hello Etznab and All,
                &gt; Thanks for the post.
                &gt; It was right on! I'm
                &gt; beginning to think
                &gt; that Klemp might be
                &gt; schizophrenic along
                &gt; with a few other psychosis.
                &gt;
                &gt; For one thing, it's clear
                &gt; that Klemp and his inner
                &gt; circle are aware that he's
                &gt; not in control of anyone
                &gt; or anything except his
                &gt; own followers, and that's
                &gt; limited too. The effects of
                &gt; what HK says works like
                &gt; Voo Doo. It takes a true
                &gt; believer to give his words
                &gt; power. Thus, Klemp is
                &gt; more the carnival hypnotist
                &gt; as he programs via repeated
                &gt; suggestions in order to have
                &gt; his puppets act, talk, and
                &gt; believe in a certain way.
                &gt; ECKists are like chickens
                &gt; in a hen house while HK is
                &gt; the fox guarding it in their
                &gt; dreams.
                &gt;
                &gt; IMO, half of Klemp knows
                &gt; he's a fraud and the other
                &gt; half is thinking that fate
                &gt; has given him some magical
                &gt; powers... and to be a messenger
                &gt; of hope and for the good
                &gt; of mankind. Basically, he's
                &gt; scamming ECKists out of
                &gt; their time and money like
                &gt; other religious leaders are
                &gt; doing with their followers.
                &gt; And, there are probably
                &gt; the same proportion of
                &gt; EKists who are hypocrites
                &gt; and heretics as with all
                &gt; religions. This doesn't make
                &gt; any ECKist "special" only
                &gt; average. But, their egos
                &gt; need to feel "special" in
                &gt; order to believe all the lies!
                &gt;
                &gt; Prometheus
                &gt;
                &gt;
                &gt;
                &gt;
                &gt; etznab wrote:
                &gt; Apparently, a chief source for the Eckankar teachings has come from
                &gt; imagination. Even since the beginning. And it looks this way still.
                &gt;
                &gt; Some things can be checked and some writings Paul Twitchell
                compiled /
                &gt; copied / paraphrased from. However, imagination has always been a
                &gt; source for what Eckankar and Eckists share.
                &gt;
                &gt; If what comes from "Eck Masters" on the inner is "real" I say it is
                &gt; most likely real because people in their imaginations made it real.
                &gt; Imaginations fed by stories concocted by people before them by
                &gt; imagination and / or concocted deliberately for some other
                purposes.
                &gt;
                &gt; Imagination has and can bring many amazing things. Including many
                &gt; inventions. So maybe it's better to call imagination the source of
                so
                &gt; many spiritual teachings and not necessarily some largely anonymous
                &gt; lineage, league, council, etc. of Masters hiding out in the
                background
                &gt; of physical paintings, drawings and books?
                &gt;
                &gt;
                &gt; prometheus wrote:
                &gt;
                &gt; It was a Bait and Switch
                &gt; when most long-time EKists
                &gt; were fooled. We were told
                &gt; EKankar was a "Spiritual
                &gt; Path" and not really a religion,
                &gt; but we were told Twitchell
                &gt; needed to play-the-game
                &gt; to protect the outer org
                &gt; and for the tax free benefits
                &gt; in order for the EK teachings
                &gt; to survive. Years after his
                &gt; death we found out that
                &gt; Twitchell lied about everything
                &gt; and had been a liar for all
                &gt; his life.
                &gt;
                &gt; Then, later, Klemp came
                &gt; on the scene by tricking
                &gt; Gross into thinking he could
                &gt; be trusted and that there was
                &gt; room at the top for two ECK
                &gt; Masters. This is when the
                &gt; big changes in direction took
                &gt; place and ECKankar became
                &gt; an "official religion" for all
                &gt; ECKists to see and to promote.
                &gt; And, it's when Klemp began
                &gt; to introduce his dogmatic
                &gt; leanings toward the Lutheran
                &gt; Church with quotes from
                &gt; the distorted King James
                &gt; version of the Bible.
                &gt;
                &gt; Now, HK is still looking for
                &gt; volunteers to bring in more
                &gt; money. He'll say things like,
                &gt; "You, as ECKists, are very
                &gt; special messengers of the
                &gt; Mahanta." Yet, Klemp can't
                &gt; deliver because he's not a
                &gt; God nor a Master. Feeling
                &gt; "special" is a trap. It's pretend!
                &gt;
                &gt; ECKists are asked to imagine
                &gt; and dream and convince them-
                &gt; selves that reality is not this
                &gt; life... it's more, therefore,
                &gt; don't look here, look over
                &gt; there! But, in the mean time,
                &gt; EKists need to sell more books
                &gt; and CDs/DVDs and all sorts
                &gt; of crap which make the same
                &gt; promises as before, but has
                &gt; new wrappings and testimonials.
                &gt; Klemp's KAL trap is one of
                &gt; distraction and to keep EKies
                &gt; busy so they don't have time
                &gt; to think about anything except
                &gt; ECKankar.
                &gt;
                &gt; Plus, the reasons for why
                &gt; Klemp is pushing for ECKists
                &gt; to volunteer so much and
                &gt; read his books is easy to
                &gt; understand once it is pointed
                &gt; out:
                &gt;
                &gt; 1. His ego needs the accolades.
                &gt; HK has to live up to his listing
                &gt; in "The International Who's
                &gt; Who of Intellectuals" which
                &gt; he paid for!
                &gt;
                &gt; 2. He has to impress the
                &gt; other preachers and holy
                &gt; men, not only in the Chanhassen/
                &gt; Minneapolis area, around
                &gt; the world, as well as, his
                &gt; low/loyal servants/followers.
                &gt;
                &gt; 3. Klemp receives 50%
                &gt; royalties on everything with
                &gt; his name on it, therefore,
                &gt; he needs to push out more
                &gt; and more merchandise.
                &gt;
                &gt; 4. I'm thinking that Klemp
                &gt; wants to set some kind of
                &gt; a record for writing the most
                &gt; "books." His followers will
                &gt; feel proud of him, he will
                &gt; feel proud, and it gives a
                &gt; false sense of validation
                &gt; for what he's writing. Plus,
                &gt; EKists will buy his redundant
                &gt; newly packaged merchandise
                &gt; adding money to his pockets
                &gt; while taking money from them.
                &gt; But, they're paying to feel
                &gt; good, so, if not him it would
                &gt; be something/someone else...
                &gt; like family.
                &gt;
                &gt; 5. His books manipulate and
                &gt; hypnotize his followers. It
                &gt; keeps them living in delusion.
                &gt;
                &gt; 6. It's a way to recruit more
                &gt; people which means more
                &gt; volunteers and more money.
                &gt; Remember, Klemp has said
                &gt; "there's no free lunch in
                &gt; Eckankar."
                &gt;
                &gt; Here's a video from David Lane
                &gt; that points out that these fake
                &gt; Masters, like Klemp, simply get
                &gt; in the way of Soul's freedom to
                &gt; Be and to grow. Why become
                &gt; codependent upon a "Mahanta"
                &gt; or anyone?
                &gt;
                &gt; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i6RjV4ltY0
                &gt;
                &gt; Prometheus
                &gt;

              • prometheus_973
                Hello Etznab and All, Forgive me for saying this but I m not so sure you would have believed the resurrection if you could have put your fingers into Jesus
                Message 7 of 9 , Jul 13 12:45 PM
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                  Hello Etznab and All,
                  Forgive me for saying this
                  but I'm not so sure you would
                  have believed the resurrection
                  if you could have put your
                  fingers into Jesus' wounds.

                  Why think that seeing documents
                  in the Vatican archives would
                  expose the truth? Who wrote
                  those documents and how
                  many times were they edited
                  and rewritten? Plus, it was all
                  subjective from one person's
                  POV and experience. What
                  biases and influences did this
                  person buy into during this
                  ancient time and what was
                  the level of their intellect?
                  Were they superstitious? Thus,
                  even if this person was another
                  Albert Einstein are we to trust
                  their personal religious experience?

                  As far as Twitchell goes there
                  is quite enough proof, via the
                  timeline, to show his Rebazar
                  lie. It's been pointed out Using
                  PT's own words in "Difficulties
                  Of Becoming The LEM."

                  And, of course, Marman and
                  Klemp are liars and have been
                  covering up the Truth for years.

                  Back in the Mid-'80s Klemp
                  had Marge and others look
                  into Twit's Kirpal and Sudar
                  Singh claims and uncovered
                  numerous lies. Klemp even
                  mentions on the eckankar
                  web site that Twit lied in
                  order to get into "Who's Who
                  in Kentucky." Plus, Marman
                  admitted that Twit made up
                  the whole Mahanta thing in
                  1968. Also, Marman admitted
                  that Twit lied about being in
                  Paris, France and that it was
                  actually Paris, Kentucky.

                  Prometheus

                  etznab@... wrote:
                  >
                  > The power of suggestion can influence one's dreams. I am convinced of
                  > this. A lot of times my dreams will reflect what was playing on TV just
                  > before bed. If not that, then they would be involved with what was on
                  > my mind just before sleep. I think it's a natural process for the mind
                  > to sort out experiences during the day. People actually re-live some of
                  > that stuff that went on during the day.
                  >
                  > Now if a person reads an Eck book and has Eck Masters on the brain just
                  > before bed, I don't see it unusual people would find these things
                  > turning up on the inner and in dreams.
                  >
                  > Perhaps one of the misunderstandings people have is that anything not a
                  > symbolical dream is a "real" experience. As if all vivid dreams and
                  > inner experiences are somehow more real compared with dreams that don't
                  > make sense because the information is scrambled, or symbolic.
                  >
                  > I never thought about this much, but I think delusions can be very
                  > vivid too. Especially when the subconscious is involved; and anything
                  > like inner planes. Moreover, on the inner planes entities can probably
                  > take various forms in order to influence the dreamer. The entities need
                  > not be some other thing outside the individual, but could be entities
                  > created by the individual instead. Like memes, or facimilies.
                  > Personally created, or borrowed from others.
                  >
                  > What I would really like to know more than anything else is what Paul
                  > Twitchell's original works and manuscripts show about his Eck Masters.
                  > Rebazar Tarzs chief among them. However, as I did not write the script
                  > and haven't the originals all I can do is read and listen to what was
                  > put in Eckankar books and Eckankar people say; which, IMO doesn't
                  > automatically equate with truth. Knowing the truth is the only way to
                  > purge the fictional characters though, IMO. Because so long as an
                  > inkling of belief in fiction as literal truth remains, I suspect people
                  > will be subject to an extent. At the same time, I think enough history
                  > remains to describe the truth more accurately. History like what exists
                  > in the Vatican archives though, and what so many are not allowed to
                  > see.
                  >
                  > Recently I was reminded that both Doug Marman and Harold Klemp probably
                  > knew about things many years ago. However, I think they chose to let
                  > some of the myths remain on account of the power and influence they can
                  > have over people that believe.
                  >
                  > ***
                  >
                  > a.r.e. repost ...
                  >
                  > Oh well, What the heck. I searched for just a little bit on the Net
                  > (about three minutes) when I found something of relevance. Here's a
                  > short excerpt to give the gist of what it's about.
                  >
                  > "As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has
                  > become misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I
                  > know that some could say that I am just offering another
                  > interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
                  > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
                  > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
                  > gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite
                  > straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
                  > swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
                  > with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
                  > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library
                  > dream as well."
                  >
                  > http://www.mombu.com/religion/eckankar/t-another-question-for-doug-god-sense-books-clear-office-13150495.html
                  >
                  > I tried to find the original T.S. post for a time frame when Doug wrote
                  > that. It appears to be early 2004. See January 3rd, 2004 post: Response
                  > to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman
                  >
                  > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
                  >
                  > ***
                  >
                  > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8_wBxuhcsJg
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:40 pm
                  > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
                  > Delusional Conman?
                  >
                  >  
                  > I had already seen what a room full of psychics could produce before I
                  > became an eckist.   Eckist are busy reinforcing what the lem says
                  > so then they all are convinced it is so.  In my early days of eckankar
                  > I dreamed about the lem and other masters. Marvelous things did I see
                  > in my dreams.  I believe that was because I was influenced by what I
                  > read and what other eckist said.  I wanted to believe.  Near the end of
                  > my days in eckankar, my dreams concerning these eckist and the eck
                  > masters got really distorted.  They and the masters were doing weird
                  > and sometimes terrible things in my dreams.  As I fell away more and
                  > more, the worse my dreams about eckankar became.  The dreams about such
                  > things stopped all together once I was out.  I was no longer influenced
                  > by it. 
                  >  
                  > Klemp is probably still just as delusional as the day he stripped in
                  > public and was locked up for it.  He believes he is the true lem.  From
                  > everything I have read the only real strong trait he has is that he is
                  > intolerant of other people.  This is then passed off as his being
                  > overly susceptible to things because of his great burden of carrying
                  > all those karma ridden chelas. 
                  >  
                  >  Klemp is uninspiring as a leader and for a god man seems to have no
                  > inclination toward creativity.  He like Paul, takes from any source he
                  > can and since he was a long term Lutheran, he relies on that experience
                  > the most. 
                  >  
                  > In short, I believe that eckist suffer from mass hypnosis because of
                  > their strong belief in the all knowing powers of their dull witted
                  > lem.  How else could you explain why so many would find some one
                  > so nondescript to be worthy of that kind of devotion.  They see what
                  > they want to see. 
                  >
                  > --- On Wed, 7/11/12, harrisonferrel harrisonferrel@...
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: harrisonferrel harrisonferrel@...
                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
                  > Delusional Conman?
                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2012, 11:11 PM
                  >
                  >   When I first got out of eckankar many years ago I too contemplated
                  > (forgive the term) whether Klemp was deluded, a nutjob or some other
                  > kind of lunatic. My conclusion is this: He is full of shit, knows he is
                  > full of shit and many of his followers knows he is full of shit. Most
                  > eckists think he's god incarnate. I have to imagine he could be a
                  > sociopath because if he had a conscience he would clearly have a
                  > difficult time living with himself for years on end spewing the same
                  > outrageous, absurd lies. He threatens people, writes dribble, creates a
                  > "lexicon" by merely changing the definitions of real words to suit his
                  > cult, and he imparts blessings on people. Think about it. It takes a
                  > nutjob to do this sort of thing.
                  >
                  > I only wished that I trusted my instincts before I ever got involved in
                  > eckankar more than 20 years ago after reading Twitchell's nonsense and
                  > hearing his illiterate, backwoods rhetoric. This was before I even knew
                  > there was a Harold Klemp.
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                  > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello Etznab and All,
                  > > Thanks for the post.
                  > > It was right on! I'm
                  > > beginning to think
                  > > that Klemp might be
                  > > schizophrenic along
                  > > with a few other psychosis.
                  > >
                  > > For one thing, it's clear
                  > > that Klemp and his inner
                  > > circle are aware that he's
                  > > not in control of anyone
                  > > or anything except his
                  > > own followers, and that's
                  > > limited too. The effects of
                  > > what HK says works like
                  > > Voo Doo. It takes a true
                  > > believer to give his words
                  > > power. Thus, Klemp is
                  > > more the carnival hypnotist
                  > > as he programs via repeated
                  > > suggestions in order to have
                  > > his puppets act, talk, and
                  > > believe in a certain way.
                  > > ECKists are like chickens
                  > > in a hen house while HK is
                  > > the fox guarding it in their
                  > > dreams.
                  > >
                  > > IMO, half of Klemp knows
                  > > he's a fraud and the other
                  > > half is thinking that fate
                  > > has given him some magical
                  > > powers... and to be a messenger
                  > > of hope and for the good
                  > > of mankind. Basically, he's
                  > > scamming ECKists out of
                  > > their time and money like
                  > > other religious leaders are
                  > > doing with their followers.
                  > > And, there are probably
                  > > the same proportion of
                  > > EKists who are hypocrites
                  > > and heretics as with all
                  > > religions. This doesn't make
                  > > any ECKist "special" only
                  > > average. But, their egos
                  > > need to feel "special" in
                  > > order to believe all the lies!
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > etznab wrote:
                  > > Apparently, a chief source for the Eckankar teachings has come from
                  > > imagination. Even since the beginning. And it looks this way still.
                  > >
                  > > Some things can be checked and some writings Paul Twitchell
                  > compiled /
                  > > copied / paraphrased from. However, imagination has always been a
                  > > source for what Eckankar and Eckists share.
                  > >
                  > > If what comes from "Eck Masters" on the inner is "real" I say it is
                  > > most likely real because people in their imaginations made it real.
                  > > Imaginations fed by stories concocted by people before them by
                  > > imagination and / or concocted deliberately for some other
                  > purposes.
                  > >
                  > > Imagination has and can bring many amazing things. Including many
                  > > inventions. So maybe it's better to call imagination the source of
                  > so
                  > > many spiritual teachings and not necessarily some largely anonymous
                  > > lineage, league, council, etc. of Masters hiding out in the
                  > background
                  > > of physical paintings, drawings and books?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > prometheus wrote:
                  > >
                  > > It was a Bait and Switch
                  > > when most long-time EKists
                  > > were fooled. We were told
                  > > EKankar was a "Spiritual
                  > > Path" and not really a religion,
                  > > but we were told Twitchell
                  > > needed to play-the-game
                  > > to protect the outer org
                  > > and for the tax free benefits
                  > > in order for the EK teachings
                  > > to survive. Years after his
                  > > death we found out that
                  > > Twitchell lied about everything
                  > > and had been a liar for all
                  > > his life.
                  > >
                  > > Then, later, Klemp came
                  > > on the scene by tricking
                  > > Gross into thinking he could
                  > > be trusted and that there was
                  > > room at the top for two ECK
                  > > Masters. This is when the
                  > > big changes in direction took
                  > > place and ECKankar became
                  > > an "official religion" for all
                  > > ECKists to see and to promote.
                  > > And, it's when Klemp began
                  > > to introduce his dogmatic
                  > > leanings toward the Lutheran
                  > > Church with quotes from
                  > > the distorted King James
                  > > version of the Bible.
                  > >
                  > > Now, HK is still looking for
                  > > volunteers to bring in more
                  > > money. He'll say things like,
                  > > "You, as ECKists, are very
                  > > special messengers of the
                  > > Mahanta." Yet, Klemp can't
                  > > deliver because he's not a
                  > > God nor a Master. Feeling
                  > > "special" is a trap. It's pretend!
                  > >
                  > > ECKists are asked to imagine
                  > > and dream and convince them-
                  > > selves that reality is not this
                  > > life... it's more, therefore,
                  > > don't look here, look over
                  > > there! But, in the mean time,
                  > > EKists need to sell more books
                  > > and CDs/DVDs and all sorts
                  > > of crap which make the same
                  > > promises as before, but has
                  > > new wrappings and testimonials.
                  > > Klemp's KAL trap is one of
                  > > distraction and to keep EKies
                  > > busy so they don't have time
                  > > to think about anything except
                  > > ECKankar.
                  > >
                  > > Plus, the reasons for why
                  > > Klemp is pushing for ECKists
                  > > to volunteer so much and
                  > > read his books is easy to
                  > > understand once it is pointed
                  > > out:
                  > >
                  > > 1. His ego needs the accolades.
                  > > HK has to live up to his listing
                  > > in "The International Who's
                  > > Who of Intellectuals" which
                  > > he paid for!
                  > >
                  > > 2. He has to impress the
                  > > other preachers and holy
                  > > men, not only in the Chanhassen/
                  > > Minneapolis area, around
                  > > the world, as well as, his
                  > > low/loyal servants/followers.
                  > >
                  > > 3. Klemp receives 50%
                  > > royalties on everything with
                  > > his name on it, therefore,
                  > > he needs to push out more
                  > > and more merchandise.
                  > >
                  > > 4. I'm thinking that Klemp
                  > > wants to set some kind of
                  > > a record for writing the most
                  > > "books." His followers will
                  > > feel proud of him, he will
                  > > feel proud, and it gives a
                  > > false sense of validation
                  > > for what he's writing. Plus,
                  > > EKists will buy his redundant
                  > > newly packaged merchandise
                  > > adding money to his pockets
                  > > while taking money from them.
                  > > But, they're paying to feel
                  > > good, so, if not him it would
                  > > be something/someone else...
                  > > like family.
                  > >
                  > > 5. His books manipulate and
                  > > hypnotize his followers. It
                  > > keeps them living in delusion.
                  > >
                  > > 6. It's a way to recruit more
                  > > people which means more
                  > > volunteers and more money.
                  > > Remember, Klemp has said
                  > > "there's no free lunch in
                  > > Eckankar."
                  > >
                  > > Here's a video from David Lane
                  > > that points out that these fake
                  > > Masters, like Klemp, simply get
                  > > in the way of Soul's freedom to
                  > > Be and to grow. Why become
                  > > codependent upon a "Mahanta"
                  > > or anyone?
                  > >
                  > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i6RjV4ltY0
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  >
                • Non
                  Just look at the history of any cult/religious movement and you will find numerous examples of thousands of people being misled by some self-proclaimed
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jul 14 11:02 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Just look at the history of any cult/religious movement and you will find numerous examples of thousands of people being misled by some self-proclaimed prophet, master, etc. Once they are hooked by a strong feeling, overwhelming hypnogogic experiences, delusion and following the will of some authority figure is a very potent mix for disaster and suffering and quite often sadism. It may be intoxicating at first but without questioning and investigation then there you are with a bunch of other people to agree with you, and anyone else is then demonized.

                    Reading the book "Under the Banner of Heaven" about the extremes of Mormonism in the past and the present is very interesting nonfiction about how a supposed "empirical" like ancient gold plates seen but then taken back by God's messenger, and also writing a fictitious Book of Mormon, adding The Doctrine and Covenants as documentation of Joseph Smith's "Revelations" is not so dissimilar to eckankar and the the LIAR LIVING ECK MASTER/MAHANTA, harold klemp, twitch and gross.

                    Believe in reb tarz, but there are so many other cult/religious movements to choose from with fictional drawings of what they supposedly look like, and believe at your own peril.

                    Better to just work on what is, create, love poetry, live and accept your humanness, find a cause that makes the earth a better place, and also maybe admit that we are all at least a little bit dirty and nasty as well as good. No such thing as a perfect highest holy state of consciousness for anyone. Some people I admire more than others, but even Oprah has her many flaws, and likes celebrities who espouse a cult/religious movement. Read her unauthorized biography by Kitty Kelley, quite the eye opener. Even the greatest philanthropist has human flaws and problems.

                    eckankar is really really nasty as far as cult/religious movements go and don't forget it!

                    noneckster ; )


                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Etznab and All,
                    > Forgive me for saying this
                    > but I'm not so sure you would
                    > have believed the resurrection
                    > if you could have put your
                    > fingers into Jesus' wounds.
                    >
                    > Why think that seeing documents
                    > in the Vatican archives would
                    > expose the truth? Who wrote
                    > those documents and how
                    > many times were they edited
                    > and rewritten? Plus, it was all
                    > subjective from one person's
                    > POV and experience. What
                    > biases and influences did this
                    > person buy into during this
                    > ancient time and what was
                    > the level of their intellect?
                    > Were they superstitious? Thus,
                    > even if this person was another
                    > Albert Einstein are we to trust
                    > their personal religious experience?
                    >
                    > As far as Twitchell goes there
                    > is quite enough proof, via the
                    > timeline, to show his Rebazar
                    > lie. It's been pointed out Using
                    > PT's own words in "Difficulties
                    > Of Becoming The LEM."
                    >
                    > And, of course, Marman and
                    > Klemp are liars and have been
                    > covering up the Truth for years.
                    >
                    > Back in the Mid-'80s Klemp
                    > had Marge and others look
                    > into Twit's Kirpal and Sudar
                    > Singh claims and uncovered
                    > numerous lies. Klemp even
                    > mentions on the eckankar
                    > web site that Twit lied in
                    > order to get into "Who's Who
                    > in Kentucky." Plus, Marman
                    > admitted that Twit made up
                    > the whole Mahanta thing in
                    > 1968. Also, Marman admitted
                    > that Twit lied about being in
                    > Paris, France and that it was
                    > actually Paris, Kentucky.
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                    > etznab@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The power of suggestion can influence one's dreams. I am convinced of
                    > > this. A lot of times my dreams will reflect what was playing on TV just
                    > > before bed. If not that, then they would be involved with what was on
                    > > my mind just before sleep. I think it's a natural process for the mind
                    > > to sort out experiences during the day. People actually re-live some of
                    > > that stuff that went on during the day.
                    > >
                    > > Now if a person reads an Eck book and has Eck Masters on the brain just
                    > > before bed, I don't see it unusual people would find these things
                    > > turning up on the inner and in dreams.
                    > >
                    > > Perhaps one of the misunderstandings people have is that anything not a
                    > > symbolical dream is a "real" experience. As if all vivid dreams and
                    > > inner experiences are somehow more real compared with dreams that don't
                    > > make sense because the information is scrambled, or symbolic.
                    > >
                    > > I never thought about this much, but I think delusions can be very
                    > > vivid too. Especially when the subconscious is involved; and anything
                    > > like inner planes. Moreover, on the inner planes entities can probably
                    > > take various forms in order to influence the dreamer. The entities need
                    > > not be some other thing outside the individual, but could be entities
                    > > created by the individual instead. Like memes, or facimilies.
                    > > Personally created, or borrowed from others.
                    > >
                    > > What I would really like to know more than anything else is what Paul
                    > > Twitchell's original works and manuscripts show about his Eck Masters.
                    > > Rebazar Tarzs chief among them. However, as I did not write the script
                    > > and haven't the originals all I can do is read and listen to what was
                    > > put in Eckankar books and Eckankar people say; which, IMO doesn't
                    > > automatically equate with truth. Knowing the truth is the only way to
                    > > purge the fictional characters though, IMO. Because so long as an
                    > > inkling of belief in fiction as literal truth remains, I suspect people
                    > > will be subject to an extent. At the same time, I think enough history
                    > > remains to describe the truth more accurately. History like what exists
                    > > in the Vatican archives though, and what so many are not allowed to
                    > > see.
                    > >
                    > > Recently I was reminded that both Doug Marman and Harold Klemp probably
                    > > knew about things many years ago. However, I think they chose to let
                    > > some of the myths remain on account of the power and influence they can
                    > > have over people that believe.
                    > >
                    > > ***
                    > >
                    > > a.r.e. repost ...
                    > >
                    > > Oh well, What the heck. I searched for just a little bit on the Net
                    > > (about three minutes) when I found something of relevance. Here's a
                    > > short excerpt to give the gist of what it's about.
                    > >
                    > > "As for the Astral library dream, this is unfortunate that it has
                    > > become misunderstood in this way. I cover this in my book as well. I
                    > > know that some could say that I am just offering another
                    > > interpretation, but how do I know my interpretation is the correct one?
                    > > The reason I feel confident is because Harold talked with me about the
                    > > whole issue of Paul's plagiarism shortly before he had that dream and
                    > > gave those talks or started writing about it. He was quite
                    > > straightforward and told me that even though it might be hard to
                    > > swallow he was discovering a growing list. I know Harold was not happy
                    > > with what he had learned and felt that Paul had left him a mess to
                    > > clean up. This is exactly what he says at the end of his Astral Library
                    > > dream as well."
                    > >
                    > > http://www.mombu.com/religion/eckankar/t-another-question-for-doug-god-sense-books-clear-office-13150495.html
                    > >
                    > > I tried to find the original T.S. post for a time frame when Doug wrote
                    > > that. It appears to be early 2004. See January 3rd, 2004 post: Response
                    > > to Usually Skeptical: More Questions to Doug Marman
                    > >
                    > > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=152&page=179#m144
                    > >
                    > > ***
                    > >
                    > > https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!topic/alt.religion.eckankar/8_wBxuhcsJg
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@>
                    > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Thu, Jul 12, 2012 10:40 pm
                    > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
                    > > Delusional Conman?
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > > I had already seen what a room full of psychics could produce before I
                    > > became an eckist.   Eckist are busy reinforcing what the lem says
                    > > so then they all are convinced it is so.  In my early days of eckankar
                    > > I dreamed about the lem and other masters. Marvelous things did I see
                    > > in my dreams.  I believe that was because I was influenced by what I
                    > > read and what other eckist said.  I wanted to believe.  Near the end of
                    > > my days in eckankar, my dreams concerning these eckist and the eck
                    > > masters got really distorted.  They and the masters were doing weird
                    > > and sometimes terrible things in my dreams.  As I fell away more and
                    > > more, the worse my dreams about eckankar became.  The dreams about such
                    > > things stopped all together once I was out.  I was no longer influenced
                    > > by it. 
                    > >  
                    > > Klemp is probably still just as delusional as the day he stripped in
                    > > public and was locked up for it.  He believes he is the true lem.  From
                    > > everything I have read the only real strong trait he has is that he is
                    > > intolerant of other people.  This is then passed off as his being
                    > > overly susceptible to things because of his great burden of carrying
                    > > all those karma ridden chelas. 
                    > >  
                    > >  Klemp is uninspiring as a leader and for a god man seems to have no
                    > > inclination toward creativity.  He like Paul, takes from any source he
                    > > can and since he was a long term Lutheran, he relies on that experience
                    > > the most. 
                    > >  
                    > > In short, I believe that eckist suffer from mass hypnosis because of
                    > > their strong belief in the all knowing powers of their dull witted
                    > > lem.  How else could you explain why so many would find some one
                    > > so nondescript to be worthy of that kind of devotion.  They see what
                    > > they want to see. 
                    > >
                    > > --- On Wed, 7/11/12, harrisonferrel harrisonferrel@
                    > > wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: harrisonferrel harrisonferrel@
                    > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Is Klemp A Conman or A
                    > > Delusional Conman?
                    > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Date: Wednesday, July 11, 2012, 11:11 PM
                    > >
                    > >   When I first got out of eckankar many years ago I too contemplated
                    > > (forgive the term) whether Klemp was deluded, a nutjob or some other
                    > > kind of lunatic. My conclusion is this: He is full of shit, knows he is
                    > > full of shit and many of his followers knows he is full of shit. Most
                    > > eckists think he's god incarnate. I have to imagine he could be a
                    > > sociopath because if he had a conscience he would clearly have a
                    > > difficult time living with himself for years on end spewing the same
                    > > outrageous, absurd lies. He threatens people, writes dribble, creates a
                    > > "lexicon" by merely changing the definitions of real words to suit his
                    > > cult, and he imparts blessings on people. Think about it. It takes a
                    > > nutjob to do this sort of thing.
                    > >
                    > > I only wished that I trusted my instincts before I ever got involved in
                    > > eckankar more than 20 years ago after reading Twitchell's nonsense and
                    > > hearing his illiterate, backwoods rhetoric. This was before I even knew
                    > > there was a Harold Klemp.
                    > >
                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
                    > > prometheus_973@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hello Etznab and All,
                    > > > Thanks for the post.
                    > > > It was right on! I'm
                    > > > beginning to think
                    > > > that Klemp might be
                    > > > schizophrenic along
                    > > > with a few other psychosis.
                    > > >
                    > > > For one thing, it's clear
                    > > > that Klemp and his inner
                    > > > circle are aware that he's
                    > > > not in control of anyone
                    > > > or anything except his
                    > > > own followers, and that's
                    > > > limited too. The effects of
                    > > > what HK says works like
                    > > > Voo Doo. It takes a true
                    > > > believer to give his words
                    > > > power. Thus, Klemp is
                    > > > more the carnival hypnotist
                    > > > as he programs via repeated
                    > > > suggestions in order to have
                    > > > his puppets act, talk, and
                    > > > believe in a certain way.
                    > > > ECKists are like chickens
                    > > > in a hen house while HK is
                    > > > the fox guarding it in their
                    > > > dreams.
                    > > >
                    > > > IMO, half of Klemp knows
                    > > > he's a fraud and the other
                    > > > half is thinking that fate
                    > > > has given him some magical
                    > > > powers... and to be a messenger
                    > > > of hope and for the good
                    > > > of mankind. Basically, he's
                    > > > scamming ECKists out of
                    > > > their time and money like
                    > > > other religious leaders are
                    > > > doing with their followers.
                    > > > And, there are probably
                    > > > the same proportion of
                    > > > EKists who are hypocrites
                    > > > and heretics as with all
                    > > > religions. This doesn't make
                    > > > any ECKist "special" only
                    > > > average. But, their egos
                    > > > need to feel "special" in
                    > > > order to believe all the lies!
                    > > >
                    > > > Prometheus
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > etznab wrote:
                    > > > Apparently, a chief source for the Eckankar teachings has come from
                    > > > imagination. Even since the beginning. And it looks this way still.
                    > > >
                    > > > Some things can be checked and some writings Paul Twitchell
                    > > compiled /
                    > > > copied / paraphrased from. However, imagination has always been a
                    > > > source for what Eckankar and Eckists share.
                    > > >
                    > > > If what comes from "Eck Masters" on the inner is "real" I say it is
                    > > > most likely real because people in their imaginations made it real.
                    > > > Imaginations fed by stories concocted by people before them by
                    > > > imagination and / or concocted deliberately for some other
                    > > purposes.
                    > > >
                    > > > Imagination has and can bring many amazing things. Including many
                    > > > inventions. So maybe it's better to call imagination the source of
                    > > so
                    > > > many spiritual teachings and not necessarily some largely anonymous
                    > > > lineage, league, council, etc. of Masters hiding out in the
                    > > background
                    > > > of physical paintings, drawings and books?
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > prometheus wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > It was a Bait and Switch
                    > > > when most long-time EKists
                    > > > were fooled. We were told
                    > > > EKankar was a "Spiritual
                    > > > Path" and not really a religion,
                    > > > but we were told Twitchell
                    > > > needed to play-the-game
                    > > > to protect the outer org
                    > > > and for the tax free benefits
                    > > > in order for the EK teachings
                    > > > to survive. Years after his
                    > > > death we found out that
                    > > > Twitchell lied about everything
                    > > > and had been a liar for all
                    > > > his life.
                    > > >
                    > > > Then, later, Klemp came
                    > > > on the scene by tricking
                    > > > Gross into thinking he could
                    > > > be trusted and that there was
                    > > > room at the top for two ECK
                    > > > Masters. This is when the
                    > > > big changes in direction took
                    > > > place and ECKankar became
                    > > > an "official religion" for all
                    > > > ECKists to see and to promote.
                    > > > And, it's when Klemp began
                    > > > to introduce his dogmatic
                    > > > leanings toward the Lutheran
                    > > > Church with quotes from
                    > > > the distorted King James
                    > > > version of the Bible.
                    > > >
                    > > > Now, HK is still looking for
                    > > > volunteers to bring in more
                    > > > money. He'll say things like,
                    > > > "You, as ECKists, are very
                    > > > special messengers of the
                    > > > Mahanta." Yet, Klemp can't
                    > > > deliver because he's not a
                    > > > God nor a Master. Feeling
                    > > > "special" is a trap. It's pretend!
                    > > >
                    > > > ECKists are asked to imagine
                    > > > and dream and convince them-
                    > > > selves that reality is not this
                    > > > life... it's more, therefore,
                    > > > don't look here, look over
                    > > > there! But, in the mean time,
                    > > > EKists need to sell more books
                    > > > and CDs/DVDs and all sorts
                    > > > of crap which make the same
                    > > > promises as before, but has
                    > > > new wrappings and testimonials.
                    > > > Klemp's KAL trap is one of
                    > > > distraction and to keep EKies
                    > > > busy so they don't have time
                    > > > to think about anything except
                    > > > ECKankar.
                    > > >
                    > > > Plus, the reasons for why
                    > > > Klemp is pushing for ECKists
                    > > > to volunteer so much and
                    > > > read his books is easy to
                    > > > understand once it is pointed
                    > > > out:
                    > > >
                    > > > 1. His ego needs the accolades.
                    > > > HK has to live up to his listing
                    > > > in "The International Who's
                    > > > Who of Intellectuals" which
                    > > > he paid for!
                    > > >
                    > > > 2. He has to impress the
                    > > > other preachers and holy
                    > > > men, not only in the Chanhassen/
                    > > > Minneapolis area, around
                    > > > the world, as well as, his
                    > > > low/loyal servants/followers.
                    > > >
                    > > > 3. Klemp receives 50%
                    > > > royalties on everything with
                    > > > his name on it, therefore,
                    > > > he needs to push out more
                    > > > and more merchandise.
                    > > >
                    > > > 4. I'm thinking that Klemp
                    > > > wants to set some kind of
                    > > > a record for writing the most
                    > > > "books." His followers will
                    > > > feel proud of him, he will
                    > > > feel proud, and it gives a
                    > > > false sense of validation
                    > > > for what he's writing. Plus,
                    > > > EKists will buy his redundant
                    > > > newly packaged merchandise
                    > > > adding money to his pockets
                    > > > while taking money from them.
                    > > > But, they're paying to feel
                    > > > good, so, if not him it would
                    > > > be something/someone else...
                    > > > like family.
                    > > >
                    > > > 5. His books manipulate and
                    > > > hypnotize his followers. It
                    > > > keeps them living in delusion.
                    > > >
                    > > > 6. It's a way to recruit more
                    > > > people which means more
                    > > > volunteers and more money.
                    > > > Remember, Klemp has said
                    > > > "there's no free lunch in
                    > > > Eckankar."
                    > > >
                    > > > Here's a video from David Lane
                    > > > that points out that these fake
                    > > > Masters, like Klemp, simply get
                    > > > in the way of Soul's freedom to
                    > > > Be and to grow. Why become
                    > > > codependent upon a "Mahanta"
                    > > > or anyone?
                    > > >
                    > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i6RjV4ltY0
                    > > >
                    > > > Prometheus
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
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