Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)

Expand Messages
  • prometheus_973
    Hello Janice, Actually Marman kind of side-steps the Rebazar issue with some double talk. He agrees that there is no proof or records of Rebazar s existence,
    Message 1 of 14 , May 3, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello Janice,
      Actually Marman kind of
      side-steps the Rebazar
      issue with some double
      talk. He agrees that there
      is no proof or records
      of Rebazar's existence,
      but states that it can't
      be proven that Rebazar
      doesn't exist. How can
      anyone disprove a negative?

      Well, via a timeline! PT
      mentions in "Difficulties"
      of meeting Rebazar (pgs.
      70-71) in 1947 where he
      went up to the 7th initiation
      and then met with him
      again on a third visit
      to India around 1951
      where PT "got the finish
      of my initiations." Except,
      PT never knew of the term
      or rank of Mahanta until
      Jan. 1969... which Marman
      verifies and admits that
      this was when Paul created
      the Mahanta. That's rather
      strange isn't it since there's
      supposed to be an "Ancient
      Lineage of Mahantas."

      [On pg. 48 PT mentions that
      his first visit to India was in
      1924 when he was 15 (born
      1908)].

      Plus, let's not forget than
      Marman points out that
      Twitchell went to visit his
      sister in Paris, Kentucky
      and not Paris, France! Yes,
      Marman admits that Twit
      lied! So, how could Paul have
      met Sudar in Paris, France
      and then traveled to India
      with him where he received
      his 1st and 2nd initiations
      and then turned over, by
      Sudar, to Rebazar? It never
      happened!

      Apparently, Marman has
      trouble connecting the dots!

      Thus, how can there be
      an Ancient Lineage when
      the Mahanta was created
      in 1969? This, also, means
      that Rebazar was not a
      Mahanta nor were any so-
      called ECK (Spiritual) Masters
      prior to Rebazar. Actually,
      it points out that Twitchell
      never met Rebazar because
      he doesn't exist.

      Also, Marman states that
      the belief in saints, saviors,
      and spiritual masters is an
      intrinsic memory that Soul
      has remembered from past
      lifetimes... thus it must be
      true! These were never conmen,
      fakes, or snake oil salesmen
      and everyone knows that
      the Catholic Church and Sant
      Mat never exaggerated the
      PR of their saints!

      BTW- The following TS
      response can be found in
      the FILES section listed on
      the left under HOME,
      MESSAGES, and above
      LINKS.

      Doug Marman
      02/08/2004

      [FROM FORD JOHNSON'S (old) "THE TRUTH SEEKER" site]:

      A Few Responses:

      To Nacal [Prometheus]:

      [MARMAN ON REBAZAR]
      You went on:
      "Let's now go back up to the
      preceding paragraph since
      you seem to claim to like
      "facts" (why don't you give
      your sources?).

      "But it is a fact that his Master
      Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan
      lama, who appears to be in his
      early forties, was a young man
      when Columbus discovered America."
      Now, was that really a "fact," or
      a delusional belief, or a deliberate
      lie? Or, is it that, "There is a need
      of the people to believe in the magic
      of a saviour, and Sri Paul Twitchell
      knows this and acts out the part"
      (same article)."

      Marman: "It certainly is no fact,
      since there are no records nor
      anything else to prove that Rebazar
      Tarzs even exists, never mind
      how old he really is.

      However, there is no proof that
      it is a lie, either.

      It certainly sounds far-fetched.
      But I don't think the belief in
      saints, saviors and spiritual
      teachers comes from the desire
      to believe in magic. I think it
      comes from the innate memory
      within Soul that there is a truth
      and meaning to life that most
      of the world seems to have forgotten,
      but some remember."

      I don't think Eckankar is doing
      all that well. It's a limited audience
      with limited resources. Fortunately,
      Klemp is the main reason that
      Eckankar hasn't grown larger.

      Prometheus


      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      >
      > Prometheus,
      >  
      > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
      >  
      > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why? 

      The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
      >  
      > Thanks
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From: prometheus
      >
      >
      > Hello Janice and All,
      > Interesting. I think I'll
      > share some comments
      > to your insights below.
      >
      > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      > "Prometheus,
      >
      > Now that is very interesting.
      >
      > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
      >
      > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
      >
      > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
      >
      > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
      >
      > ME (Prometheus): I know that
      > many of us have had similar
      > experiences of being attacked
      > by negative entities and having
      > to defend ourselves. In this case
      > your RESA was, also, one of these
      > negative beings. Too bad you
      > couldn't protect yourself from
      > them, but it's deceptive when
      > one has placed trust in a RESA
      > by assuming they are always
      > positive and always on your side.
      > They are as closed minded and
      > defensive as is any religionist
      > when protecting their dogma
      > from too much scrutiny.
      >
      > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
      >
      > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
      > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
      > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
      > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
      > the catch is that there's a time limit for
      > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
      > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
      > meditation/contemplation one will change
      > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
      > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
      > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
      > dream and imagine all sorts of things
      > when attention is placed upon these
      > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
      > and every other conman knew and uses
      > and what Klemp continues to use as
      > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
      > the magician uses while the viewer's
      > attention is distracted elsewhere.
      >
      >
      > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
      >
      > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
      > are real. It could very well be that demons
      > are metaphors for those things that bother
      > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
      > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
      > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
      > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
      > have problems since they tend to pick and
      > choose what is easy for them to believe
      > since they tend to be more simple-minded
      > and tend to see most everything in literal,
      > narrow, terms.
      >
      >
      > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
      > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
      >
      > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
      > He had the by-laws changed
      > after he took over from D.G.
      > and neither the President nor
      > the EK Board has any voting
      > authority. Only Klemp can hire
      > and fire. The local Satsang
      > Societies and local Boards have
      > been set up the same (As Above).
      > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
      > fire the local Presidents and
      > Board members and the votes
      > of Board members carry no
      > authority! The RESA has the
      > sole authority, unless, a higher
      > authority at the ESC steps in.
      > However, when this is done
      > it is always with the approval
      > of Klemp and under his direction.
      >
      >
      > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
      >
      > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
      > ECK Master" was the best book written
      > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
      > There were three interviews done around
      > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
      > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
      > is that after all of these years he's still
      > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
      > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
      > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
      > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
      > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
      > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
      > 16 years old when he, first, went from
      > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
      > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
      > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
      > comments about how he confused things
      > and screwed up paperwork so that he
      > could take it easy during the start of
      > WWII showed a level of subversion and
      > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
      > accomplish!
      >
      > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
      >
      > ME: I think that we all have to get
      > over the guilt and shame of being
      > tricked. Look at all of those who
      > belong to a religion and donate
      > time and money in order to get
      > their "feel good" fix. Religions
      > are types of opiates... Eckankar
      > too! People need to believe in
      > something that can give them
      > hope and to help them to maintain
      > a positive outlook. And, conmen
      > know what people want and need.
      > Attitude is, also, important but
      > there's a fine line between being
      > positive and being delusional.
      > Sometimes it's difficult to know
      > where to draw the line and some
      > of us have more difficulty with
      > seeing the good versus seeing
      > the bad. However, I don't think
      > that seeing the glass half-empty
      > is always wrong, but it does present
      > more of a challenge to overcome.
      >
      > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
      > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
      >
      > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
      > ever needed to jump off a bridge
      > and do a strip tease at an airport
      > and choose jail or a mental institution
      > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
      > was a liar up to the moment of his
      > untimely death and, thus, was not
      > a "spiritual being." It was all about
      > him. Besides, many people have
      > done stupid things when confused
      > with life and have sought "spiritual
      > solutions." If one chose to, one could
      > claim that their mental missteps
      > and episodes were "spiritual
      > experiences" as Klemp has done.
      > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
      > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
      > excuse his mental confusion.
      > After all, HK's the leader of a
      > church and has to be above
      > and beyond reproach. It's a
      > pretend game where he has
      > to, partially, buy into the hype
      > in order to seem authentic.
      >
      > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
      >
      > ME: I, too, know and remember some
      > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
      > as long as they don't know who I am.
      > That could/would change I'm sure.
      > They would feel betrayed and insulted
      > and I could understand that, however,
      > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
      > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
      > not due to Eckankar or because of
      > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
      > That crap just gets in the way and
      > causes more codependency. Any
      > growth or realization leading to
      > an expanded awareness is learned
      > and earned by the individual. It's
      > their own personal and private
      > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
      > whatever one wants to call this
      > divine essence, or not, that leads
      > to a divine knowingness and to
      > contentment!
      >
      > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
      >
      > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
      > while knowing about the deceptions
      > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
      > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
      > why throw the baby out with the
      > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
      > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
      > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
      > works why complain? H.I.s have
      > put blinders on in order to stay
      > the course and maintain their
      > prestigious positions which took
      > them decades of time and money
      > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
      > part, HK's RESA structure and the
      > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
      > that did the same... picked and
      > chose what they wanted to follow
      > and believe. However, that's not
      > the way Eckankar is supposed to
      > work. One is supposed to take
      > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
      > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
      > only the best from all of the other
      > religions and experts, etc. in order
      > to create (or bring forth) the EK
      > dogma to the modern Western
      > world. Thus, how can one pick
      > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
      > relevant? If a person is not consciously
      > following the guidance and the will
      > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
      > they are heretics!
      >
      > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
      >
      > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
      > Humans are social animals
      > and most like to follow in
      > one way or another because
      > it's easier to follow than to
      > lead. Being a follower requires
      > less thought and energy. It's
      > less demanding, less consuming,
      > and is less stressful. It is true
      > that the Higher one is with
      > initiations, years, and titles
      > the more lost that individual
      > is. They've bought into it
      > to the extreme. Look at Marge
      > Klemp! However, the ones
      > to really feel sorry for are those
      > ESC staffers who know it's all
      > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
      > but they have to put on an act
      > in order to keep their jobs,
      > health care, retirement, etc.
      >
      >
      > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
      >
      > ME: Doug Marman is an old
      > friend of Klemp's who's an
      > apologist for Eckankar. I think
      > he's a 7th. He's got some books
      > out there that have overlooked
      > many facts and are based upon
      > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
      > however, is that Doug's stated
      > that Twitchell lied about traveling
      > to Paris, France to visit his sister
      > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
      > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
      > was probably made up by Twitchell.
      > After all, PT needed to have
      > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
      > his real master, initiate him.
      > Thus, PT created RT in order to
      > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
      > has admitted that Twitchell
      > created the Mahanta title in
      > January 1969. Yet, Marman
      > omits all of this information
      > in his books!
      >
      > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
      >
      > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
      >
      > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
      >
      > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
      > It was interesting for me to
      > comment.
      >
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      >
      > This is an entertaining approach.
      >
      > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • etznab@aol.com
      I have the information recorded someplace about Marman s Rebazar Tarzs comments. I believe it s on a.r.e. someplace. Give me some time to find it ... if you
      Message 2 of 14 , May 5, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        I have the information recorded someplace about Marman's Rebazar Tarzs
        comments. I believe it's on a.r.e. someplace. Give me some time to find
        it ... if you don't find it sooner.


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thu, May 3, 2012 4:28 pm
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
        (Revisited)







        Prometheus,
         
        You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me
        peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for
        being such a wise soul.
         
        Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted
        that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The
        circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced
        eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an
        organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more
        people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org
        is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by
        counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
         
        Thanks




        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
        (Revisited)
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM


         
        Hello Janice and All,
        Interesting. I think I'll
        share some comments
        to your insights below.

        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        "Prometheus,

        Now that is very interesting.

        I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so
        before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling
        in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My
        experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I
        heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know
        it started with a P.

        Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and
        then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I
        was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It
        was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly
        looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at
        me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I
        told it to get out now and never come back. It did.

        Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as
        being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams
        were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my
        favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found
        it very confusing to have these dreams.

        I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term
        relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that
        got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings
        since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true
        beauty in the teachings."

        ME (Prometheus): I know that
        many of us have had similar
        experiences of being attacked
        by negative entities and having
        to defend ourselves. In this case
        your RESA was, also, one of these
        negative beings. Too bad you
        couldn't protect yourself from
        them, but it's deceptive when
        one has placed trust in a RESA
        by assuming they are always
        positive and always on your side.
        They are as closed minded and
        defensive as is any religionist
        when protecting their dogma
        from too much scrutiny.

        "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it
        attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading
        all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another
        year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack
        seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of
        eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive
        thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I
        wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to
        them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many
        occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be
        respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories
        about the personal lives of other eckist."

        ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
        Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
        ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
        until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
        the catch is that there's a time limit for
        being skeptical. True, when one seeks
        the "Truth" via introspection and uses
        meditation/contemplation one will change
        and see with new eyes, but that's not due
        to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
        tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
        dream and imagine all sorts of things
        when attention is placed upon these
        areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
        and every other conman knew and uses
        and what Klemp continues to use as
        a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
        the magician uses while the viewer's
        attention is distracted elsewhere.


        "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind
        eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with
        demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have
        always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or
        demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say,
        I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't
        have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious
        hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature
        of eckankar."

        ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
        are real. It could very well be that demons
        are metaphors for those things that bother
        and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
        and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
        all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
        This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
        have problems since they tend to pick and
        choose what is easy for them to believe
        since they tend to be more simple-minded
        and tend to see most everything in literal,
        narrow, terms.


        "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and
        he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for
        the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
        see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest
        problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing
        using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even
        looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very
        intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like
        twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for
        spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As
        long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was
        easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate
        eckankar."

        ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
        He had the by-laws changed
        after he took over from D.G.
        and neither the President nor
        the EK Board has any voting
        authority. Only Klemp can hire
        and fire. The local Satsang
        Societies and local Boards have
        been set up the same (As Above).
        Thus, the RESAs can hire and
        fire the local Presidents and
        Board members and the votes
        of Board members carry no
        authority! The RESA has the
        sole authority, unless, a higher
        authority at the ESC steps in.
        However, when this is done
        it is always with the approval
        of Klemp and under his direction.


        "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by
        twitchell and others that the average person would think is not
        spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great
        power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been
        removed from print."

        ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
        ECK Master" was the best book written
        depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
        There were three interviews done around
        June 1971 while PT was the full blown
        self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
        is that after all of these years he's still
        lying about his past. Klemp has stated
        on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
        and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
        Who's Who and had never traveled all that
        far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
        1971 interview), is saying he was almost
        16 years old when he, first, went from
        Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
        Sudar Singh. There are more examples
        that are even more outlandish. Paul's
        comments about how he confused things
        and screwed up paperwork so that he
        could take it easy during the start of
        WWII showed a level of subversion and
        sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
        accomplish!

        "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so
        confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit
        nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable
        eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it
        was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of
        eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more
        money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that
        although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a
        single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I
        wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of
        myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people
        feel dumb, gullible and used."

        ME: I think that we all have to get
        over the guilt and shame of being
        tricked. Look at all of those who
        belong to a religion and donate
        time and money in order to get
        their "feel good" fix. Religions
        are types of opiates... Eckankar
        too! People need to believe in
        something that can give them
        hope and to help them to maintain
        a positive outlook. And, conmen
        know what people want and need.
        Attitude is, also, important but
        there's a fine line between being
        positive and being delusional.
        Sometimes it's difficult to know
        where to draw the line and some
        of us have more difficulty with
        seeing the good versus seeing
        the bad. However, I don't think
        that seeing the glass half-empty
        is always wrong, but it does present
        more of a challenge to overcome.

        "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I
        am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of
        them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I
        was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental
        conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this
        great living eck master help them over come these things or at least
        help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master
        had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is
        necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp
        describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with
        a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in
        public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed
        the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was
        woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary ordeal? Did he
        go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes
        and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"

        ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
        ever needed to jump off a bridge
        and do a strip tease at an airport
        and choose jail or a mental institution
        in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
        was a liar up to the moment of his
        untimely death and, thus, was not
        a "spiritual being." It was all about
        him. Besides, many people have
        done stupid things when confused
        with life and have sought "spiritual
        solutions." If one chose to, one could
        claim that their mental missteps
        and episodes were "spiritual
        experiences" as Klemp has done.
        Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
        hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
        excuse his mental confusion.
        After all, HK's the leader of a
        church and has to be above
        and beyond reproach. It's a
        pretend game where he has
        to, partially, buy into the hype
        in order to seem authentic.

        "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who
        appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well
        adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this
        article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is
        possible to grow in eckankar."

        ME: I, too, know and remember some
        H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
        as long as they don't know who I am.
        That could/would change I'm sure.
        They would feel betrayed and insulted
        and I could understand that, however,
        that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
        To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
        not due to Eckankar or because of
        inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
        That crap just gets in the way and
        causes more codependency. Any
        growth or realization leading to
        an expanded awareness is learned
        and earned by the individual. It's
        their own personal and private
        relationship to the Holy Spirit or
        whatever one wants to call this
        divine essence, or not, that leads
        to a divine knowingness and to
        contentment!

        "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came
        from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high
        initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply
        accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that
        the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed
        relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can
        use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings
        being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which
        ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth
        wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as
        needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this
        concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be
        knowingly condoned."

        ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
        while knowing about the deceptions
        and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
        if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
        why throw the baby out with the
        (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
        nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
        of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
        works why complain? H.I.s have
        put blinders on in order to stay
        the course and maintain their
        prestigious positions which took
        them decades of time and money
        to obtain. Many have rejected, in
        part, HK's RESA structure and the
        ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
        that did the same... picked and
        chose what they wanted to follow
        and believe. However, that's not
        the way Eckankar is supposed to
        work. One is supposed to take
        the bait and swallow it hook, line,
        and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
        only the best from all of the other
        religions and experts, etc. in order
        to create (or bring forth) the EK
        dogma to the modern Western
        world. Thus, how can one pick
        and chose when it's all, supposedly,
        relevant? If a person is not consciously
        following the guidance and the will
        of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
        they are heretics!

        "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than
        eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as
        greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still
        wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that
        eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel
        for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just
        remember the good and bless them in my heart."

        ME: True! It's nice to belong.
        Humans are social animals
        and most like to follow in
        one way or another because
        it's easier to follow than to
        lead. Being a follower requires
        less thought and energy. It's
        less demanding, less consuming,
        and is less stressful. It is true
        that the Higher one is with
        initiations, years, and titles
        the more lost that individual
        is. They've bought into it
        to the extreme. Look at Marge
        Klemp! However, the ones
        to really feel sorry for are those
        ESC staffers who know it's all
        a sham and Klemp is a poser,
        but they have to put on an act
        in order to keep their jobs,
        health care, retirement, etc.


        "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I
        will look them up but any info any of you can share would be
        appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are
        these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an
        eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."

        ME: Doug Marman is an old
        friend of Klemp's who's an
        apologist for Eckankar. I think
        he's a 7th. He's got some books
        out there that have overlooked
        many facts and are based upon
        lies and hearsay. What's funny,
        however, is that Doug's stated
        that Twitchell lied about traveling
        to Paris, France to visit his sister
        when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
        And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
        was probably made up by Twitchell.
        After all, PT needed to have
        someone other than Kirpal Singh,
        his real master, initiate him.
        Thus, PT created RT in order to
        initiate himself. Plus, Marman
        has admitted that Twitchell
        created the Mahanta title in
        January 1969. Yet, Marman
        omits all of this information
        in his books!

        "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a
        private person, I felt a need to write it.

        Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.

        May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual
        experiences."

        ME: Thanks for sharing this.
        It was interesting for me to
        comment.


        prometheus wrote:

        This is an entertaining approach.

        http://www.scribd.com
        /doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

        Prometheus
      • postekcon
        Ekult was born in the psychic era of the 1960s, TM (transcendental meditation), visiting Ashrams by pop groups such as The Beatles, and even Paul Twitchell!
        Message 3 of 14 , May 5, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Ekult was born in the psychic era of the 1960s, TM (transcendental meditation), visiting Ashrams by pop groups such as The Beatles, and even Paul Twitchell!

          World consciousness has since moved on, but ekult is still stuck in its roots. This is why it is unable to recruit from populations today. It is no longer 'current'!

          Ekult's foundation was built upon conjured-up entities, they called them 'masters'. These 'masters' were brought into manifestation and are solely kept in manifestation today by the constant focus of attention of ekult followers. Simply withdraw this attention- nada 'masters' and nada manifestations!

          But more importantly, the mahanta entity (created 1969), is the psychic engine which sucks ekult followers dry of their energies. This is why HK constantly demands: think of me; think of me; think of me all the time! This is one modus operandi of how the energy is transferred, others are via the 'initiation' process and 'surrender'.

          Should an ekult follower withdraw their energy, or leave the movement, to explain in simplistic terms; the mahanta entity is most displeased at its pending demise, and what we might call a psychic attack ensues.

          -Postekcon


          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Prometheus,
          >  
          > Now that is very interesting. 
          >  
          >  I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out.  I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy.  My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and  I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later.  I know it started with a P.  Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness.  This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake.  The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp.  It was a strong  male voice.  A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed.  In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back.  It did.  Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con
          > artist.  The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so.  While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character.  He seemed the most spiritual at the time.  I found it very confusing to have these dreams.   I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate.   I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa.  I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist.  I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings.   
          >  
          > And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down.  I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist.  It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person.  I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings.  It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly.  I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions.  Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist.    
          >  
          >  I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons.  I am not sure demons are real and separate entities.  I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if  I  read what they have to say, I  dismiss a lot of it.  If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist.   This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar. 
          >  
          >  I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good.  I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups.  I really don't s
          >  see anything really outstanding about klemp at all.  That was my biggest problem with eckankar.  When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man.  He even looked miserable.  I saw no power.  He wasn't charismatic.  He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see.  He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical.  As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar. 
          >  
          >  It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual.  I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print. 
          >  
          >  I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things.  Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated.  I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me.  They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence.  I wasn't doing that.  I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar.  Well, not that I know of anyway.  Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest.  I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member.  Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used.
          >  
          > Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy.  I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems.  Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot.   Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist.  But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world?    If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being?  Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public?  Not in my opinion anyway.  Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as
          > kind of a necessary ordeal?  Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience? 
          >  
          > I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings.  Some appeared to be well adjusted people.  Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving.  Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar. 
          >  
          >  I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time.  One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest.  I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep.  Also,  if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed.   Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person.  Lies should not be knowingly condoned.
          >  
          >   I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else.  They are under the eckankar spell.  I still wouldn't want contact with them though.  I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them.  It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them.  So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart. 
          >  
          > Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with.  I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated.  Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh?  Are these really old names in eckankar history?    Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article.  The other two appear to be writers. 
          >  
          > Telling my experience wasn't easy for me.  Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it. 
          >  
          > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus. 
          >  
          > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences.
          >  
          >
          >
          > --- On Thu, 5/3/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 12:29 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >  
          >
          >
          >
          > This is an entertaining approach.
          >
          > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
        • etznab18
          Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? Some select trivia
          Message 4 of 14 , May 5, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

            Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

            To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

            (1)

            Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

            [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

            The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

            So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

            It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

            http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

            (2)

            July 2001:

            "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

            Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

            http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

            (3)

            July 2003:

            Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
            What are your on that stuff ?
            I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
            As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
            It's all a matter of perspective.
            I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
            On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

            http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

            (4) February 2004:

            "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

            http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

            (5)

            March 2007:

            [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
            Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
            I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
            So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
            I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
            These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
            In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

            http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
            >
            > Prometheus,
            >  
            > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
            >  
            > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
            >  
            > Thanks
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello Janice and All,
            > Interesting. I think I'll
            > share some comments
            > to your insights below.
            >
            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            > "Prometheus,
            >
            > Now that is very interesting.
            >
            > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
            >
            > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
            >
            > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
            >
            > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
            >
            > ME (Prometheus): I know that
            > many of us have had similar
            > experiences of being attacked
            > by negative entities and having
            > to defend ourselves. In this case
            > your RESA was, also, one of these
            > negative beings. Too bad you
            > couldn't protect yourself from
            > them, but it's deceptive when
            > one has placed trust in a RESA
            > by assuming they are always
            > positive and always on your side.
            > They are as closed minded and
            > defensive as is any religionist
            > when protecting their dogma
            > from too much scrutiny.
            >
            > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
            >
            > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
            > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
            > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
            > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
            > the catch is that there's a time limit for
            > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
            > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
            > meditation/contemplation one will change
            > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
            > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
            > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
            > dream and imagine all sorts of things
            > when attention is placed upon these
            > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
            > and every other conman knew and uses
            > and what Klemp continues to use as
            > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
            > the magician uses while the viewer's
            > attention is distracted elsewhere.
            >
            >
            > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
            >
            > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
            > are real. It could very well be that demons
            > are metaphors for those things that bother
            > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
            > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
            > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
            > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
            > have problems since they tend to pick and
            > choose what is easy for them to believe
            > since they tend to be more simple-minded
            > and tend to see most everything in literal,
            > narrow, terms.
            >
            >
            > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
            > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
            >
            > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
            > He had the by-laws changed
            > after he took over from D.G.
            > and neither the President nor
            > the EK Board has any voting
            > authority. Only Klemp can hire
            > and fire. The local Satsang
            > Societies and local Boards have
            > been set up the same (As Above).
            > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
            > fire the local Presidents and
            > Board members and the votes
            > of Board members carry no
            > authority! The RESA has the
            > sole authority, unless, a higher
            > authority at the ESC steps in.
            > However, when this is done
            > it is always with the approval
            > of Klemp and under his direction.
            >
            >
            > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
            >
            > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
            > ECK Master" was the best book written
            > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
            > There were three interviews done around
            > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
            > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
            > is that after all of these years he's still
            > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
            > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
            > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
            > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
            > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
            > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
            > 16 years old when he, first, went from
            > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
            > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
            > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
            > comments about how he confused things
            > and screwed up paperwork so that he
            > could take it easy during the start of
            > WWII showed a level of subversion and
            > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
            > accomplish!
            >
            > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
            >
            > ME: I think that we all have to get
            > over the guilt and shame of being
            > tricked. Look at all of those who
            > belong to a religion and donate
            > time and money in order to get
            > their "feel good" fix. Religions
            > are types of opiates... Eckankar
            > too! People need to believe in
            > something that can give them
            > hope and to help them to maintain
            > a positive outlook. And, conmen
            > know what people want and need.
            > Attitude is, also, important but
            > there's a fine line between being
            > positive and being delusional.
            > Sometimes it's difficult to know
            > where to draw the line and some
            > of us have more difficulty with
            > seeing the good versus seeing
            > the bad. However, I don't think
            > that seeing the glass half-empty
            > is always wrong, but it does present
            > more of a challenge to overcome.
            >
            > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
            > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
            >
            > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
            > ever needed to jump off a bridge
            > and do a strip tease at an airport
            > and choose jail or a mental institution
            > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
            > was a liar up to the moment of his
            > untimely death and, thus, was not
            > a "spiritual being." It was all about
            > him. Besides, many people have
            > done stupid things when confused
            > with life and have sought "spiritual
            > solutions." If one chose to, one could
            > claim that their mental missteps
            > and episodes were "spiritual
            > experiences" as Klemp has done.
            > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
            > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
            > excuse his mental confusion.
            > After all, HK's the leader of a
            > church and has to be above
            > and beyond reproach. It's a
            > pretend game where he has
            > to, partially, buy into the hype
            > in order to seem authentic.
            >
            > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
            >
            > ME: I, too, know and remember some
            > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
            > as long as they don't know who I am.
            > That could/would change I'm sure.
            > They would feel betrayed and insulted
            > and I could understand that, however,
            > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
            > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
            > not due to Eckankar or because of
            > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
            > That crap just gets in the way and
            > causes more codependency. Any
            > growth or realization leading to
            > an expanded awareness is learned
            > and earned by the individual. It's
            > their own personal and private
            > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
            > whatever one wants to call this
            > divine essence, or not, that leads
            > to a divine knowingness and to
            > contentment!
            >
            > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
            >
            > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
            > while knowing about the deceptions
            > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
            > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
            > why throw the baby out with the
            > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
            > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
            > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
            > works why complain? H.I.s have
            > put blinders on in order to stay
            > the course and maintain their
            > prestigious positions which took
            > them decades of time and money
            > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
            > part, HK's RESA structure and the
            > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
            > that did the same... picked and
            > chose what they wanted to follow
            > and believe. However, that's not
            > the way Eckankar is supposed to
            > work. One is supposed to take
            > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
            > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
            > only the best from all of the other
            > religions and experts, etc. in order
            > to create (or bring forth) the EK
            > dogma to the modern Western
            > world. Thus, how can one pick
            > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
            > relevant? If a person is not consciously
            > following the guidance and the will
            > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
            > they are heretics!
            >
            > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
            >
            > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
            > Humans are social animals
            > and most like to follow in
            > one way or another because
            > it's easier to follow than to
            > lead. Being a follower requires
            > less thought and energy. It's
            > less demanding, less consuming,
            > and is less stressful. It is true
            > that the Higher one is with
            > initiations, years, and titles
            > the more lost that individual
            > is. They've bought into it
            > to the extreme. Look at Marge
            > Klemp! However, the ones
            > to really feel sorry for are those
            > ESC staffers who know it's all
            > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
            > but they have to put on an act
            > in order to keep their jobs,
            > health care, retirement, etc.
            >
            >
            > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
            >
            > ME: Doug Marman is an old
            > friend of Klemp's who's an
            > apologist for Eckankar. I think
            > he's a 7th. He's got some books
            > out there that have overlooked
            > many facts and are based upon
            > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
            > however, is that Doug's stated
            > that Twitchell lied about traveling
            > to Paris, France to visit his sister
            > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
            > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
            > was probably made up by Twitchell.
            > After all, PT needed to have
            > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
            > his real master, initiate him.
            > Thus, PT created RT in order to
            > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
            > has admitted that Twitchell
            > created the Mahanta title in
            > January 1969. Yet, Marman
            > omits all of this information
            > in his books!
            >
            > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
            >
            > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
            >
            > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
            >
            > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
            > It was interesting for me to
            > comment.
            >
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            >
            > This is an entertaining approach.
            >
            > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
          • prometheus_973
            BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus: A Calm And Peaceful Message For All Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is
            Message 5 of 14 , May 5, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus:



              A Calm And Peaceful Message For All


              Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is being
              typed. I have really been for the most part enjoying the dialogue on this message
              board.

              I would like to encourage Doug Marman to continue posting here. I think
              gradually we can all learn something that will help us move toward a greater
              understanding.

              We can do this together regardless of religious belief and possibly emerge in
              a place with no fences. I have many friends from different beliefs and something
              I have noticed in the last 10 years or so is that our differences don't separate
              us as much as they used to. There is a coming together of sorts and a move
              towards higher conciousness.

              I have seen this come about through heartfelt sharing of ideas.

              ***A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still an Eckist?

              I send all who read this my love

              Freeman


              Joey Ward
              02/09/2004
              Top

              Thanks Doug



              Thank you very much for the reply to the 5 questions that I asked of you. Also
              thanks for looking through Paul Twitchell's writings and finding the same thing that I
              found out about Paul not using the term MAHANTA until January 1969. It means a lot to me that you answered that question I ask a while back. I join Eckankar because the
              Mahanta was the highest state of consciousness in this world and in the inner
              worlds so said Paul Twitchell the 971st MAHANTA (the title he gave himself). I
              still wonder why Paul would say such a thing. To me this is the biggest lie that
              any person could say. To make up a line of Mahanta Masters, (highest state of
              consciousness and God made flesh) what was Paul thinking of. O' well !!! I
              guess the next time I see Paul in the astral library I will give him a kick in
              the pants.

              Thanks Doug,
              Joey Ward

              PS..... Doug, next time you see Harold, could you tell him that Joey would like
              to see Him start posting on The Truth Seeker Bulletin Board. It sure would be grand of
              Harold to do so. Thanks again for your help.


              Seeker For The Last Time
              02/08/2004
              Top

              Another X`Eckist Story



              I joined Eckankar in the early 80's, attracted partly because of their concept
              of Soul Travel and left in the mid-90's. I had become a 3rd Initiate by that time. Because of
              my outspoken aggressive remarks and asking too many questions about concealed facts about the organization, many wondered why the LEM had allowed me to reach that level.

              Initiations and secret words and the idea that we need a Master, mean nothing to
              me in this life because in my different existences I was connected to many of these
              concepts. There were times I needed these secret words and initiations and a Master and
              for those who need them now, it is OK. It is something many have to experience, if not in
              this lifetime, in a different one.

              In the mid-80's, I posted a few remarks on ARE. This was a good lesson for me,
              because some of the die-hard ECKists attempted to attack me with their "sword from the
              Sugmad" and "weed me out of the garden of ECK." I had no grudge against them because I
              knew they would learn to open their minds. At the time, they believed in what they
              did and that it was the right thing for them to do. I accepted it.

              I hadn't been on ARE for a long time but a few weeks ago I was impelled to go on
              it and out popped the information concerning Ford Johnson's book. In the past,
              ECKist would say it was the ECK or LEM. I ordered the book, which I am enjoying now.
              It brought back some memories of Eckankar.

              I was very surprised to see some of the die-hard and long-standing
              ECKists, including High Initiates, especially Nathan. This was a shock and it takes a lot to shock me. I am very happy for Nathan because we had communicated in the past. Nathan would make a very high class lawyer in this life(have no idea what he does). Boy, did he
              swing that sword for Eckankar. He left nothing standing. But that was then and now is now.
              I am happy, Nathan that you allowed yourself to open and move beyond the garden of
              ECK. There is so much more to learn.

              To some Eckankar is still a beautiful garden and I can respect that. I would like to stress that I have nothing against Eckankar and similar religions. They may be needed
              for souls to grow.

              I enjoyed reading the comments on this board..and I'll be back when I have time.

              I'll sign off with the name I used to use on ARE - Seeker, for the last time.



              Doug Marman
              02/08/2004
              Top

              A Few Responses



              I've received a number of comments to my last post.

              I will respond to some of the questions and comments.

              To Degar:

              I agree with you that no church, book or religion can replace the part of us
              that knows. We also both agree on the importance of fearlessness in seeing
              truth, and the importance of teachings with heart.

              My lights are fine, as are yours.


              To Joey Ward:

              I don't do yes or no questions, but I will try to keep my answers short:

              1. Did Paul Twitchell have the highest state of consciousness as the Godman
              as he told the world through his writings?

              I don't know how anyone could say who was highest or who is even higher than
              another. So, I would never say such a thing, myself. I don't even think having the
              highest state of consciousness should be anyone's goal. A person can gain a high state of
              consciousness and be unable to make a living here in the physical. That's not very useful.

              2. Does Harold Klemp have the highest state of consciousness as the Godman
              as he is telling the world throught his writings?

              Same as above, however, I will add this. I agree with the Sufis who say that there is what they call The Pole of The World. The Sufi teacher Ibn al' Arabi points out that this same principle applies at every level of human affairs. Another Sufi put it this way: "Just as there is someone who acts as the pole for the whole of humanity, so there are poles for every faith, community, occupation - even down to the level of towns."

              We sense when we are near such people since they seem to represent and carry the
              whole of the town or company or faith that they are a part of. Every age has
              those who carry the whole of things for the world at every level. We connect to that
              whole through their vision.

              However, I don't believe in saying who the Pole of the World is, since everyone
              needs to find this out for themselves. In fact, in most times through history the Pole
              of The World was hidden. The Sufis say this as well.

              3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?

              Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes.

              4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on
              them as if the Eck Master were saying them?

              Yes.

              5. Who do you Trust to tell the truth about Spiritual truths? Pick one only.
              [Names omitted]

              I see all teachings as mines. The good ones are gold mines, but they all need to be sorted through to find the pure gold. I have found no outer teachings that are pure gold.

              The only place to test the gold is within ourselves, when we try to use it in our lives.

              You might point to an outer person. I would rather point to our inner knowingness to recognize truth. We often do pick it up from others, however.


              To Journey:

              You asked: "If you are not trying to undermine Ford and his book "Confessions of
              a God Seeker," why did you give such a negative opinion about the book in The
              Chanhassen Villager last November?"

              If you read my comments to the Chanhassen Villager, just like in my last post, it is focused on the errors in what David Lane has reported and the unfortunate fact that Ford repeated these as if they were facts as David did. I am absolutely amazed at how far the distortion of truths from David Lane has spread. I was disappointed that the newspaper had not done better research, and that Ford had not as well, especially since David Lane himself suggested to Ford that he study my book more thoroughly to see what had been discussed via the Internet.

              I am just as amazed at how quickly and completely people assume that I am some
              kind of pawn in a battle or fighting some kind of war against Ford for pointing out
              the errors. I guess this goes to show how far off perceptions of someone else's motivations
              can be. People will imagine what my motivations are, but they are a million miles from
              the mark.

              I do agree that some people like to win their arguments no matter what, and since I have no interest in that, this is exactly why I have said I would say no more about such things unless folks here were interested. From the responses I've seen, there doesn't seem to be much interest in what I was writing about.

              I think you are right that we should all look at our motivations. I have certainly done so and have tried only to offer help in clearing up some of the confusions that have been going on for a while by getting to the facts. I have tried to stay far from criticizing anyone else's beliefs, although I do think some friendly dialogue in this area is good.

              I think it is just as important to look at the motivations for bringing up my personal motivations. I have not questioned Ford's motivations, nor would I. I think his intentions are sincere. Getting stuck over another person's so-called intentions is often the way our Censor stops us from seeing another person's point of view fairly.

              When we get so attached to our cause, anyone who says anything that appears to
              interfere with our cause becomes or enemy. The motivations of our enemies are always wrong in our minds. Ask them and they would say the same about their enemies.

              It is a sad fact that public dialogue over religious matters is almost impossible these days.
              This was not true in America during its early days. Public dialogue was often lively and contentious, but never came to people disowning their neighbors or rejecting their families and friends like it does today.

              As far as I am concerned, we are all friends here with a common interest in Spiritual Truth.
              That is how I see it. And we will each decide for ourselves what is true, as we should.


              To DD:

              You wrote: "You spend all of your time chipping away at the edges of the argument,
              finding miniscule points of contention (a minor date discrepancy here, a location there)
              but not once do you address the underlying core truth that is being and has been
              expressed here from the very beginning."

              Exactly right. So why is everyone getting so worked up about it? Why is no one
              simply acknowledging the minor points and letting it go? These are not core truths,
              just a matter of correcting errors in fact.

              No, I don't agree that my "can't we all get along" message doesn't help us get at the truth. In fact, let me say it this way: If we can not listen to those who see things differently than we do, then we will never see Truth. This doesn't mean we should all agree, but it certainly
              does mean that we should be able to hold respectful and friendly conversations
              with those who have a different way of seeing things. We should be open to learning from
              others.

              You wrote: "Your method is to find a few unimportant discrepancies and use them
              as an attempt to discredit the entire revelation of overall truth discovered."

              This is incorrect. I am only trying to point out the errors. I am not trying to discredit the entire message. But clearly, after we have seen the facts for what they are, the overall picture does change somewhat. That's natural.

              Since so many of David Lane's claims are in fact not based on facts at all, but merely
              on imagined intentions and speculations, I have also offered other possible interpretations.
              My point is not that David's guesses are wrong and mine are right, but simply to
              show how widely interpretations can vary when there are no facts.

              You are the one who is painting a picture of black and white, not I. I don't see David
              or Ford as all wrong, nor as all right. I say let's find the gold wherever we look.
              Why blame anyone for the fact that everything they offer is not pure gold?

              Lastly, you suggest that I am defending a teaching and that I am an apologist.
              Okay, perhaps I am. I don't feel that is what I am doing, but I can see it would
              look that way to you. But surely you see that your comments are the same. You are
              also defending your beliefs. In fact, everyone who has responded to my post on this
              bulletin board has picked at what I would call minor, technical details and
              completely avoided my points. This doesn't mean you or anyone else here is any less
              sincere, does it?


              To Nacal:

              You asked: "Where do you ever give a reference or a quote from your sources?"

              They are in my book, and have been thoroughly discussed on alt.religion.eckankar
              and can be found in the records there. I would be glad to present them here as
              well, if anyone was interested.

              You asked: "Why have you returned without answering the questions posed to you
              by site members in previous postings? When did Twitchell first write about the
              mahanta?

              Was it 1969 as one site member has stated?"

              I answered last time that I had just moved to a new home and my files were still
              packed in boxes. They are still packed in boxes, but a few are handy so I pulled out
              Paul's old Wisdom Notes and Illuminated Way Letters.

              You seem to be right. Paul didn't use the word, Mahanta, until the January 1969
              Illuminated Way Letter and the February 1969 Wisdom Note. Before then he mainly used, The
              Master, Spiritual Traveler, Teacher, etc. Not even the mention of Living ECK
              Master very often, although Outer Master and living Master were mentioned often.

              This is interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

              You wrote: "You are also being untruthful when you say that you, "… have no
              desire to interfere with the beliefs of anyone."

              And how would you know that? You seem to know my own desires and intentions
              better than I do. Clearly I will need to ask you next time what my intentions
              and desires are.

              This is foolishness. Do you realize how hard it is to know the desires of your
              own children?

              How often do parents misunderstand what their children are trying to do? Have
              you never had this happen to you when you were a child? Yet you think you can
              actually guess my desires, when you don't even know me? Have we even met?

              Why do people spend so much time imagining they KNOW the intentions of those
              they disagree with?

              I see this with ECKists just as often as with David Lane and the group here. So,
              I'm not picking on this group. I see it as a real trap and an excuse to justify
              rejecting what another person has to say.

              You wrote: "You also claim to "have enjoyed the conversations on this bulletin
              board" and yet you only respond to selective questions."

              That's right. That was what I came here to share, after Ford claimed that I was
              not after the kind of truth that could be discussed openly and that my book was
              not about encouraging open dialogue. I came here for just that kind of dialogue,
              but guess what? No one here wants to discuss the facts or the errors openly.

              If I were Ford, I would care enough to make sure the facts I was using were
              accurate. I thought, especially as a lawyer, he would want to know.

              You wrote: "You attempt to confuse (like Paul and Harold) by twisting and
              abusing truth in order to blind the reader with your distortions and illusions of reality."

              If you really believe this, then why not point out a quote where you feel this
              is what I am attempting to do, rather than making broad accusations about my
              motivations? Why not just address directly what what I am saying and point out
              how you see it differently? I have no intention of twisting the truth in anyway
              at all.

              You wrote: "Is what Harold's teaches (Eckankar) a myth?

              "Since I brought the subject up can you tell me if the Holocaust was a myth or
              not?

              "Some things ARE black and white so just give a yes or no answer to the
              previously mentioned two questions. Please, no long-winded explanation, yes or
              no to each question."

              Sorry, I don't do yes or no answers, but I'll be glad to discuss your questions.
              Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught about Eckankar is a myth. Yes, I think
              a lot of what people think about the Holocaust is made up of myth as well. This
              doesn't mean that the Holocaust didn't happen, or that many of the stories or
              facts are lies. It just means that people often try to simplify things.

              History is largely made up of myth. There are a million personal individual
              stories about World War II, for example, yet the history books treat it as one
              thing that happened. The people who go through it don't see it the way the
              history books do. They were there, but the myths are what we can deal with to
              understand. Otherwise it is too complex.

              You wrote: "Doug, instead of focusing on David Lane or Ford's book let's now
              focus on the writings of Twitchell and Klemp and see where we can find
              inaccuracies, or is the world still flat to you? Did you like the posting from
              the May-June-July 1971 Mystic World about Twitchell? "No one really knows for
              sure where he came from, when he was born, or if his true name is even Paul
              Twitchell. How long he has been on this Earth planet is not known." Or, how
              about this quote from the same article, "Paul is known to the world as Peddar
              Zaskq, which is his real name, is an occidental." Wasn't this also his name for
              his last incarnation and his spiritual name?"

              Obviously we now know where he came from and was born (Paducah, Kentucky) and
              that his true name was not Paul Twitchell, but was John Paul Twitchell. We also
              now know when he was born (1909). Paul certainly didn't ever talk about these
              things, nor would he answer questions about them directly, and I think he liked
              the idea that his past was mysterious, and he helped to create this mysterious
              past. Yes, Paul is only known to the world as Peddar Zaskq because he told the
              world that was his spiritual name.

              And yes, this is the kind of writing that is mythological. Did you think I would
              say something else?

              You went on: "Let's now go back up to the preceding paragraph since you seem to
              claim to like "facts" (why don't you give your sources?). "But it is a fact that
              his Master Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan lama, who appears to be in his
              early forties, was a young man when Columbus discovered America." Now, was that
              really a "fact," or a delusional belief, or a deliberate lie? Or, is it that,
              "There is a need of the people to believe in the magic of a saviour, and Sri
              Paul Twitchell knows this and acts out the part" (same article)."

              It certainly is no fact, since there are no records nor anything else to prove
              that Rebazar Tarzs even exists, never mind how old he really is. However, there
              is no proof that it is a lie, either. It certainly sounds far-fetched. But I
              don't think the belief in saints, saviors and spiritual teachers comes from the
              desire to believe in magic. I think it comes from the innate memory within Soul
              that there is a truth and meaning to life that most of the world seems to have
              forgotten, but some remember.

              As Rumi once said, the reason that false gold is so popular is because there is
              such a thing as real gold.

              Of course, mixed with this is that many people want a father figure, or want
              someone to take care of them and tell them what is right and wrong.

              You wrote: "The sad thing is that there is no freedom in religion… there is only
              control through the use of fear and surrender of the common sense of having an
              open mind, and of course, the dangled carrot of initiation and hope."

              It certainly seems that way. To me, without freedom there is no point to a
              spiritual teaching. It is simply a social group. There is more peer pressure and
              more influence from the people who want everyone to be harmonious rather than
              speaking honestly, than control from above, but in general I agree with you.

              You wrote: "Paul states, "Ramaji was one of the first initiates in the ancient
              Order of the Vairagi." It seems Paul has a problem spelling his name. "Ji" is a
              Hindu suffix used to denote respect and affection. But, Paul is not speaking of
              Rama."

              Why do you think that Paul is referring to someone different than Rama? The
              Hindus often add the "ji" to the end of a name, and sometimes it is written with
              only the "j". Take the name Shamus-i-Tabriz. Generally this is spelled, Shams of
              Tabriz. Same person. Jalalludin Rumi is spelled dozens of ways. Sometimes he is
              also called Mevlana. Same person. Sometimes it is written Shabda Yoga, sometimes
              Shabd Yog. Sometimes Yoga is spelled Joga. I interpret this quote from Paul to
              be referring to the same person as Rama, but if you feel otherwise I would find
              it interesting to hear why.

              You asked: "By the way, why has Harold evaded giving his birth date and age?"

              I don't know. Probably because it is a personal fact that has nothing to do with
              his role. But maybe it is just a hold-over from Paul. You would have to ask him.
              My guess is that he doesn't want people holding birthday parties because of his
              birthdate.

              You wrote: "Also, why is it Doug that on page 282 that Harold, the mahanta,
              doesn't even know today about an experience he had in1970. He states, "Was he
              really an ECK Master? Who can say?" Shouldn't the Master who is greater than the
              God of all religions know such things?"

              I would have to read the whole quote in context. It sounds to me as if Harold is
              asking a rhetorical question. In other words, who can say if he was a Master
              then?

              Actually the question I ask is how did Darwin know that he was the Mahanta, or
              how does Harold know this? Isn't this like any initiate who might think they
              have gained the next initiation? Isn't this the same question? How do they
              really know?

              You ask: "Are the initiations in Eckankar valid as a means to greater spiritual
              growth over those who are non-eckists? Or, is this a myth too?"

              I think the initiations are a mixed bag. There is definitely reality to them,
              from my personal experience. But they have become filled with myths as well. I
              can tell you that real Self-Realization is rare, HI or not. The initiation level
              doesn't prove anything. It is more meaningful as a personal matter than a
              comparison to others. I don't think anyone should be judging another person's
              worth or truth by what initiation level they are at. Including the Master.

              You asked: "Paul states on page 136 of Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK
              Master, "Cause with all of that, see, I write books in series. I have four books
              that are finished now; well, the Shariyat is a continued writing, but I've got
              three books actually." So Doug, where's book three? If it wasn't finished why
              didn't Harold go to the Astral Library to finish it?"

              Paul wrote a number of the first chapters to book three. I think he got to chapter three or four. That's as far as it has gotten. I think that Harold thought about completing book three but for some reason decided it wasn't his place to do so. I would be surprised if Harold ever finishes book three, or tries to. But you would have to ask him if you wanted to know.

              You wrote: "Was the "Moon Virus" that Twitchell warned of a myth or a self-promotional lie, or did he make an erroneous assumption or was it just conjecture (page 234 of "Difficulties")? Show me where Kirpal Singh's name is used with Sudar Singh's?"

              I have no idea where Paul got the idea of the Moon Virus from. He certainly used
              it to gain some news. It is similar in some ways to the HIV virus in the way it
              has stumped the scientists, but I have heard no connection to the moon.

              Here is the first quote of Paul's where he mentions Sudar Singh, from the
              January 1964 Orion magazine:

              "I began my study of bilocation under the tutelage of Satguru Sudar Singh, in
              Allahabad, India. Later, I switched to Sri Kirpal Singh of old Delhi. Both
              were teaching the Shabda Yoga, that which is called the Yoga of Sound Current. I
              had to learn to leave my body at will and return, without effort..."


              Here is another quote from my book:

              "I have since found two other early articles of Paul's, that show the same
              thing: An article that ran in early 1966 called, Can You Be In Two Places At The
              Same Time?, shows Sudar Singh, from Allahabad, India, along with Bernard of
              England, a Self-Realization Swami who has a retreat in Maryland, Kirpal Singh of
              Delhi, India, and Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan monk.



              "The second article was called, The God Eaters, and ran in the November 1964
              issue of The Psychic Observer. In the article Paul talks about Rebazar Tarzu
              [sic], who he "made contact with...through bilocation," and Kirpal Singh as his
              teachers. These examples clearly show that both Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs
              were referred to, side by side with Kirpal Singh. It was not until late 1966
              before Paul suddenly stopped referring to Kirpal Singh."



              You wrote: "You mention that you talked to Patti Simpson and basically she says
              it was "funny" how Paul would evade giving out information on himself. You wrote
              that Paul tried to leave information blank "when it came to filling out official
              forms," but found that, "they would gladly accept whatever he wrote whether it
              was right or wrong." In truth, Paul intentionally lied and mislead people.
              Ironically, this is one "fact" that you have supplied to help prove the validity
              of David Lane's claim! This is also proof that you don't even listen to your own
              words! Perhaps, this is because your conscious subjective (self) is to evade,
              and your unconscious objective Self (God-Soul) is to impart truth."


              If you want to imagine that, go ahead. I think there is a big difference between
              someone who is intentionally trying to mislead people about their age, and a
              person who refuses to give out their age. But if you want to say that both are
              technically lies, that's fine with me. It seems to me that you are just trying
              to make it look like something it isn't.

              Remember, the picture that David painted is that Paul lied to Gail about his
              age, as he had lied about his age his whole life. In fact, Gail knew perfectly
              well that Paul wasn't giving out his age, and so did everyone else. Pretty
              different picture if you ask me.

              Here's a similar example. David was accused of copyright infringment many years
              ago (ironic, isn't it?). It was over a book written about J R Hinkins group.
              Under oath he said one thing. In his deposition, also under oath, he said the
              opposite. The judge politely said that his testimony was untrustworthy. David
              claims that he was not trying to lie, he just didn't remember it correctly.
              However, the testimony shows that the first story he told seemed like the one
              that would best help his case. Later it turned out to be exactly the wrong
              thing, so when asked the same question in court, he answered the opposite way.
              He lost his case over this.

              Would you call that lying? David doesn't. I'll take David's word for it that he
              just forgot, even though it looks otherwise. I guess that's just how I am.

              You wrote: "Doug you have imagined facts through your own distorted belief
              system of myth being reality. You seem to be confused as you spread confusion to
              others (somewhat like Typhoid Mary).You have no idea of what fact or truth is
              because you are unable to hear truth."

              Mighty big claims. Why not just show me the quotes where you think I'm off base
              and share how you see it? Why imagine that I am unable to see truth?

              I'm sure I see it differently than you do. But I have few illusions about Paul.
              My point was to show how many illusions that David had, while claiming
              otherwise. Ford's book has got them now, too, since he was taken in by David's
              story. The irony is that those who are most concerned about pointing out the
              lies and illusions of others are often just as unwilling to admit and correct
              their own.

              However, if you feel that I've made any errors, please point them out. David
              caught a few, and I immediately corrected them. I would like to make my book as
              accurate as possible, and I'm in the process of making another edit to include
              the latest information, since we are always learning new things.

              Thanks for asking specific questions. More of this would make a real dialogue worthwhile. And I am glad to share the specific evidence behind my comments if anyone is
              interested.

              Doug.



              Degar
              02/08/2004
              Top

              Be The Now!!



              If you are a follower of the Clear Light and Silent Sound, then you follow the
              natural order of who you really are as Beingness. The secret between the truth
              and the lie, is intention. Intention is the prime mover of awareness. How many
              really see themselves as the observer and the observed, the now, the present.
              Look only to the temple within yourself, no church, building or outer temple
              will ever point the way. In fact remove or demolish all these objects of glory,
              pride and self righteousness for in the heart of the now resides the gift.
              "Remind all those that show you the way to the false temple of mortar and brick
              that you have out grown their cage and See now with the Spiritual eye only
              Truth."

              NO RELIGION can hold GOD to a given doctrine! Even the doctrine of Light and
              Sound…..

              Freedom can not be bound and Freedom will destroy all that try to hold it.

              Man is a funny creature, he seeks the company of the one and only primal cause
              even until death. He is even willing to kill to be near to it. He believes that
              distance exists between himself and his Maker and he must make a journey back to
              the Godhead. Knock, knock, is anyone home? Soul exists because it is GOD. God
              has never posed the question, "I love Soul". Your Higher Self JUST IS, no more
              - no less.

              Wake up!

              Dance, Sing and Be.

              "All thing must pass away" – George Harrison

              Hold on to the social consciousness if you must but as Ford and Gram are saying
              they only opened the door you must walk through and see Freedom for yourself. Not their
              truth, but yours.

              After the Temple of Eck was built, I made a number of visits to it. On one of my
              visits I noticed that the temples main entrance floor was cracked right down the
              middle. Eckankar had it repaired, so no one had any idea what had happened. If
              that had occurred in my life, I would have asked what Spirit was saying to me?
              Well I did….. What it told me was that the office(ORG) and the temple
              side(Spiritual) had a major division between them. Another way of seeing it was
              that the true teachings of Eck were no longer within the organization.

              Fear is the last thing to go…… Pure awareness of consciousness can only be
              experienced without fear.

              The events unfolding before us have the blessing of the Holy Order of the World
              Adepts or it would not be.

              This is not an end to something, but more of a beginning.

              Degar *




              Kermit
              02/08/2004
              Top

              Solipsist Reprieve: My Story -- Why I Left Eckankar



              Soul, if It exists, could have entered into the agreement to share the Eckankar
              dream. The purpose may have been for spiritual experience: to advance
              spiritually and learn to be of service in a better and higher way and to
              consciously learn a few other things, like the nature of illusion and deception.
              But if I believe that soul exists, then I am asking for another round of belief
              lessons. I had spiritual experiences, but how do I know that they are real now?
              All I know is that I am here now and even those two adverbs are suspect.

              Now it is the age of Aquarius and the Piscean age is over. Some astrologers say
              that the religions of the intercessor between man and God were an aspect of the
              Piscean phase. It is a strong aspect of the Aquarian age that the veils of the
              intercessors be lifted. And it implies a dark night for the wizard who commands
              his followers to "ignore that man behind the curtain." It is a bright day for
              expose' writers. Since reading the book, I have seen other works that expose
              Christianity and Judaism. All the political books are pointing out lies told by
              the governments and the other party and the history books. For the Christians
              out there: your version of "Confessions" may be the works of Timothy Freke and
              Peter Gandy. Lies and damn lies. All religions are of the cloth of deception,
              regardless of whose face is on the master.

              So it appears that Eckankar has decided to maintain its position as a spiritual
              middle school. We all saw this coming, felt it in many ways and Ford
              articulated it for our minds in a way that we could no longer ignore. We knew
              about David Lane and some of the plagiarism years ago and chose to forgive it.
              We wondered why Rebazar couldn't appear for a TV spot, if he was so physical.
              We were uncomfortable about Darwin being written out of history. The
              restrictive guidelines.

              When I went to receive my fifth initiation, the internal phrase kept repeating:
              "The bloom is off the rose. . . the bloom is off the rose." I wondered what
              that meant, but the meaning is emerging. The days of believing in Santa Clause
              are past. Time to take the next step in becoming emancipated. Joseph Campbell
              said that his studies gave him an overview of the myths and religions that
              precluded his having any spiritual experiences himself. It is like the old
              saying that he who carved the Buddha cannot worship it.

              But I had just finished the book and was casting about and asked spirit if it
              was true. The image of an animated Rebazar peered headfirst into my inner
              vision and then started to mirror every movement I made. I had never had an
              experience with him, but the message was that I was doing it and so I might as
              well quit struggling against the curriculum. "No more Mother Goose stories for
              you and you can pretty much forget about the tooth fairy," it told me.

              Now I suspect why Harold is always telling fairy tales. I see an image now of
              Paul laughing, after telling his audience that only a handful of them would
              understand what he was trying to say. What if he was trying to say that only
              deception exists in the world of illusion? Is Harold hinting that the teachings
              are a fairy tale used to teach a different lesson?

              Masters and lying liars do not come clean. But there may be more to this
              learning than is apparent. What if Harold had told us that he had discovered
              the truth about the whole sham and just said,

              "Well, you can call me Harold or you can call me Gerald, but you doesn't have to
              call me Sri anymore." Would that have been masterful? I do not know, but he
              didn't say that. He built a temple instead.

              One of the wake-up calls for me was an Ask-the-Master session for RESAs in one
              of the recent books. Those guys didn't know anything. They were asking
              questions and Harold was describing worlds and temples and I would like to think
              that RESAs should have been able to access that information themselves, if the
              path was working.

              But no mastership is happening here. With Eckankar producing only two and a
              half masters in almost 38 years, I was starting to worry that I wasn't on the
              short list, anyway. We're all better than we were and we are better public
              speakers, but that is not what we came for.

              We came onto the path because it promised mastership/enlightenment. One of the
              unspoken truths is that we don't have a chance of reaching it by way of
              Eckankar. It has been boiling us like frogs: slowly. By the time we have been
              around long enough to know that no one is going to go beyond the 8th initiation,
              except one guy, our minds are no longer independent enough to get that this path
              to mastership is not working and it not going to work.

              Now we have talked ourselves out of a way of life. Harold would probably say we
              have talked ourselves into a Dark Night of Soul. But that's the kind of beating
              we would be in for if we stayed around.

              I took a class with a lot of law enforcement types at one time. They said that
              everyone, except the most committed sociopath, has a need to tell the truth.
              The body language, tonal patterns and eye movements combine with other
              unconscious clues to betray a lie or a concealed truth. One way to conceal and
              deceive is to tell nothing but lies like Kevin Spacey's character in "The Usual
              Suspects." This may be how Paul Twitchell did it. There is a book about this
              subject called "Telling Lies" by Paul Ekman. It has been staring at me from my
              bookshelf for years and it has gradually dawned on me that the title and author
              may contain a hint.

              My inner voice says that there is only the one I Am that smears itself across
              the living tapestry and reabsorbs itself after one lifetime or many. So this
              baby is going out with the bath water.

              Thanks for tipping the scales.

              Kermit



              Journey
              02/07/2004
              Top

              Reply to GPk: On Unloving Attitudes



              Dear GPk,

              As to your unloving and lack of understanding attitude, I based that on what you
              said, especially in regards to your unkind words to Usually Skeptical.
              You also seem to be putting down people who are posting here on this message
              board. You continue to direct negative comments to others on this site. You come
              across as a very angry person so I am not surprised that my comments bothered
              you so much. You confused me because you sound like you are still an Eckist in
              your attacks.

              You are wrong in assuming I'm stuck/holding on to the teachings of Eckankar. I
              was not a member that long, but I read all of Harold's transcripts and several
              other books, attended Satsang classes, etc. From the get-go, it seemed like a
              lot of double talk and confusing--lots of contradictions. Your postings also
              attack Ford in that you said he was going to become the leader of a new
              religion, that would be no different from any other group. I think you are the
              one hung up on Eckankar. I am glad you are reading Ford's book. Then, I think
              your comments here would be made with a better perspective, regardless of your
              take on Ford's writings.

              It is obvious that the only self awareness that you have ever achieved has been
              of the little self. You seem to be still experiencing the brain washing of
              Eckankar. The comments that you have made indicate that you are only aware of
              the little self, rather than the higher self. Your initiation did not give you
              self-realization. This is the flaw I see in your reasoning. But this is all
              understandable because of the length of time you spent in the Eckankar
              organization--you have more to dump than I do. There is a massive amount of
              flawed concepts along with certain truths that have been mixed to such a degree
              that it is almost impossible to decipher it all. In addition to anger, there is
              fear that there is no truth out there--that you will not be able to find it.
              This is, perhaps, the root of your negativity that you have lashed out on this
              site. This is my understanding.

              Also, I have not touted the degree of my spirituality as you have. I am only a
              Truth Seeker.

              Best regards and good reading,
              Journey



              Willy
              02/07/2004
              Top

              FS Response To Ecki99 Plus 2 Laws



              Thanks for the thorough response to the questions raised by Ecki99 and others.
              As one other book (Christian Bible) often quoted notes "by their fruits ye shall
              know them". Why do so many Eckists see the activities of HCS and former
              members of Eckankar as a threat? There are no lawsuits filed, there are no
              media exposes, there is just the statement of spiritual truths as experienced by
              those who have taken the next step. There is no massive attempt to force Eck
              chelas to leave their path, if that is where they are comfortable. To each his
              own.

              Harold has made much of Richard Maybury's two laws namely:

              1. Do all you say you will do. (Your word is your bond, honor it.)
              2. Do not encroach on others or their property. (Respect the integrity of
              others.)

              I really like these two laws, since they contain so much of spiritual truth in
              so few words. And this world would surely be a much better place if they were
              practiced by more people as individuals, by nations, and by spiritual paths.
              Perhaps the organization of Eckankar and its leaders should consider how well
              they are honoring these two laws, especially in regard to former members and
              also in regard to current members.




              FS
              02/07/2004
              Top

              Response to Eckie_99: The Real Impact of Eckankar Mythology and The Role of HCS




              Dear eckie_99

              I may be starting to look predictable with the way I present my views to this
              website, but, as many of the questions put to this site are in defence of
              eckankar mythology, then one way of replying to these questions is to use the
              very mythology that is being defended in order to express the truer side of
              eckankar, the side the mahanta does not want to be seen. This reply therefore
              will be no exception. I feel sure that this will meet with your approval.,
              seeing as I am using the constructed, contrived, compilations of the master
              compiler, one Paul Twitchell.

              I quote your own words:

              b. A Person who builds a framework that can help people grow spiritually, and
              shows it to the world, to be judged on its own merits.

              There is one point that you have failed to address in your defence of eckankar
              being a framework that can help people grow, and that is, `The growth of people
              spiritually within the framework of eckankar is dependant on Harold's acceptance
              as to what he sees as spiritual growth, or more accurately stated, what he is
              prepared to accept as `Truth.' I will therefore show to the world, and to you,
              another side of how this framework of eckankar really operates in helping the
              individual grow spiritually, and let the world judge it on its own merits.
              Firstly, let the world see some of the teachings of eckankar that will be
              relevant to this reply.

              ME: This is a false premise.
              Klemp plays the role of a
              hypnotist and magician.
              Any "spiritual growth" is
              made by the individual
              and despite Klemp's
              interference via codependency.

              Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
              "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and the tests
              given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears. Every Spiritual
              Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela to call upon the Master.
              If the vision fails to reply then it is false".

              Shariyat, book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
              "Be on guard, lest he who seeks without the Vi-Guru finds those who only appear
              as the Holy One, claiming to be angels, or saints. Let none deceive the chela.
              If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be deceived by the kal
              Niranjan. If he has not the armour of Spirit, he can be misled".

              Shariyat, book 1, page 149. Third Printing 1972:
              "The ECKist knows that the presence of the Living ECK Master is always with
              him. He is never alone".

              What is presented here to the world, and yourself , is the truth of my own
              experience while within this framework of eckankar and its leader, the mahanta.
              Here is part of my letter to Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of recorded
              inner experiences that was sent to him while following this framework of
              eckankar, that you say, " can help people grow spiritually",

              "All that is contained within the journal has withstood the tests of the secret words that are required to be used to prove their validity and all that you are about to read, I stand by as true."

              Now friend, let the world see what the teachings of eckankar say about the inner
              experiences of a chela and how they are viewed within this framework.

              "The Shariyat book 2, pages 50-51: Second Edition 1988:
              "No ECK Master will acknowledge his appearance to another person. This is
              neither modesty nor is it a feeling of hiding something; in a sense he is
              letting the individual decide for themselves whether it was really him. He
              wants them to decide if it was reality. In this way he is not telling, nor
              confirming his presence with them in the Atma Sarup, but allowing them the
              independence of knowing and understanding whether it was actually him.

              If a person makes up his mind that the living ECK Master really appeared to him,
              then he knows it and this cannot be taken away from him, regardless. However,
              if he has to be told that it was the ECK Master, then he is always in doubt, for
              it was an outside source which gave him his information and not himself. It is
              superficial knowledge and not from his own inner source.

              He must always remember that the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master is not the one
              to tell him of his inner experiences, nor whether the ECK Master has appeared to
              him. But he must know this with a faith that is beyond anything that he has
              experienced and, therefore, it will stay with him. Otherwise it may fade in
              time, and the experiencer soon forgets whether it was really the ECK Master".

              Now let the world see the reply from the leader of this framework of eckankar
              that helps the individual to grow spiritually.

              Reply from Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of inner experiences while a
              chela under his claimed protection as the mahanta.

              "In response to your letter and journal of inner experiences which led you to
              think you have received the Rod of Eck Power. You have not.

              Your instincts were right not to believe this. The Kal misled you."

              Let it be explained to the world, and your own good self, that there was never
              any claim made to me having had received the rod of eck power, only that it was
              a possibility. Therefore, before we go any further, Harold Klemp is wrong in
              his statement. Now we must look at his other words, those of `The Kal Misled
              You`. Now friend, after being told I was misled by the kal, even though I have
              Harold's assurance that, `If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be
              deceived by the KAL Niranjan.`. he then fails to explain how this could have
              happened and failed to give any further guidance as to what I could do to
              prevent it happening again, although as we can see by the promise of this
              framework, I should never have been misled in the first place.

              Having now told me I was mistaken, Harold then goes on to lay the karmic
              responsibility upon me for being responsible for leading others off the path of
              eck.

              "This happens more often than one would care to believe. People who fall for
              this trick and mislead others off the path of eck become responsible for the karma."

              Let the world and yourself take note of these words, for we are told something
              very interesting here; "This happens more often than one would care to believe."
              Are not these words very thought provoking? Is Harold admitting that being
              misled by the kal while within this framework of eckankar,and, having his
              protection of the Vi-Guru, being misled by the kal is a common occurance? If
              this is so, then the claimed protection of the vi-guru must be failing to work.
              Not only that, the secret words must also be failing. Let the world see what
              eckankar has to say about the protection of its secret words:

              Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
              "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and the tests
              given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears. Every Spiritual
              Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela to call upon the Master.
              If the vision fails to reply then it is false".

              Let it go on record that the visions within the journal's inner experiences did
              reply and that I used the Word, and Words as is asked of the chela. Some of
              these words being Sugmad, Wah Z, HU, Mahanta, or any of the names of the masters
              of the vairagi.

              Here I think we should let the world know just how important this figure of the
              mahanta, the vi-guru really is, otherwise they may not fully realise just how
              powerful the mahanta truly is?

              Shariyat book 2 page 196. Second Edition 1988:
              "The eck works are the most powerful in this world; and the mahanta, the living
              eck master, who is the vehicle and channel for the eck, is the most powerful
              being within the physical world, as well as the planets and all the planes
              within the worlds of God."

              Shariyat, book 1 says on page 81. Third Printing 1972:
              "He is stronger than any man in intellect or spirit, for he has unlimited
              power, and yet this strength is combined with the noble virtues of the humble
              and gentle. All people find in him inspiration for the development of noble
              character".

              Shariyat, book 2 page 184 Second Edition 1988:
              "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master has other titles. He is the Godman, the
              Vi-Guru, the Light Giver, protector of the poor, the king of heaven, saviour of
              mankind, the scourge of evil, and the defender of the faithful. He is the real
              and only power in all the universes of God. No one can harm him without his
              consent, for all that is done to him is given permission by the ECK, with his
              consent".

              To help further my spiritual growth within this framework of eckankar, the
              mahanta now goes on to say:

              "As a spiritual discipline you are put back to the First Circle of initiation
              and are to stand aside from all eck duties for the present."

              We can show the world that this is also against what the framework of eckankar
              teaches:

              Dialogues With The Master page 172:
              First Printing 1990 "Remember this that those who demand respect and love of
              others to themselves are only exercising the negative or attracting power. The
              true teachings do not discipline in any way; do not set up duties or
              difficulties or tasks for teaching their disciples."

              This framework also tells the world, and its followers, that the teacher will
              bring about any changes needed within a chela without any pain or difficulties.


              Illuminated Way Letters 1966-1971 page 54 Copyright 1975 by Gail Twitchell
              Gross:

              "It is doubtful that the teacher will sit with his chela and discuss any
              character faults of the aspirant. Hardly ever will the teachers tell anyone
              what is wrong with himself, but he will concentrate on the error and bring about
              the change from the inner to the outer world, without pain or difficulty to the
              chelas, very often without the chela having any conscious awareness of it."

              Dear friend, and the world. I am fully aware of what this framework of eckankar
              has done to me, I am also fully aware of what this framework has done to many
              others, and this is the reason why the framework of the H.C.S. was brought
              about. It was brought about to help those who have suffered the injustice of
              eckankar at the hands of its mythological mahanta and to give them support and
              a free voice.

              We can now look to another aspect of this frameworks teachings, if not its
              practice, that of calling upon the master when the chela finds themselves in any
              difficulty:

              I was now left with no other recourse to attain further guidance other than to
              write to the mahanta at the physical level. As yet, nothing has been given. Now
              for the eckankar apologists they can say, "Get It On The Inner", but, and this
              is very very very important, how can the individual `Get It On The Inner` when
              the mahanta has just told the individual that all they have received on the
              inner is the misleadings of the kal? That the chela has the right to call upon
              the mahanta is given in the frameworks teachings. Not only has the chela the
              right to call upon the mahanta, but the mahanta is bound by his duty to answer
              each and every call of this nature. Let the world see the following exhibit:


              Illuminated Way Letters, 1966-1971, PAGE 130 Copyright 1975 by Gail Twitchell
              Gross:

              "Whenever the chela experiences any difficulty with himself such as
              falling into the negative trap, or even with Soul Travel, he should call upon
              the Master to assist him, or conduct him as the soul traveller to the spiritual
              worlds. For the Living ECK Master is bound by his mission to answer each and
              every call of this nature".


              Let it go on record, that the mahanta has failed in his duty, both to give the
              inner protection that his framework promises to give, and that he has also
              failed to assist a chela when called upon to do so. Now the world can see what
              the framework of eckankar says about a master failing in his duty:

              Shariyat, book 2, page 219. Second Edition 1988:
              "If he falters or fails; it is possible that he may be taken out of this
              position; and if he falters in his responsibility while serving as the Mahanta,
              the Living ECK Master, it is possible that he must step down for another to take
              his place".

              Unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to let all see the contents of my journal and
              come to their own understanding, and, unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to
              answer any questions that others may wish to ask. The framework of the H.C.S.
              has provided this facility for openness and free speech, the framework of
              eckankar has provided only threats to those who voice dissension and doubt.

              Shariyat, book 1, page 91. Third Printing 1972:
              "To ridicule, to scorn, to speak mockingly of the word of the Mahanta, and not
              to have faith in him and the cause of ECK is to bring woes on the advocator of
              doubt. It brings his karmic progress to a halt, increases his incarnations in
              this world, and causes him to suffer untold hardships".

              Even if a chela, or chela's tries to broach a question that is not wanted by the framework of eckankar and its leader, its teachings provide a guidance for the party faithful of how to view this dissesion within the ranks.

              Shariyat, book 2, pages 25-26. Second Edition 1988:
              " It must be remembered that all complaints and all arguments against the ECK,
              which are directed at the Mahanta, are the works of the Kal. Such assaults on
              the Mahanta are those which originate from the Kal using the minds and
              consciousness of those persons within its power to destroy the Mahanta and the
              ECK, if at all possible. These are the works of the Kal, who uses religion,
              ministers, and lay persons to bring about the downfall of the ECK, because it is
              the truth. There will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and disguise
              themselves under the robes of the ECK, but they are prophets with false faces
              who are lying to the ECKist`s , but few if any who are true followers of the ECK
              are ever deceived by these agents of the Kal".

              What Harold Klemp and the eckankar organisation have chosen to ignore is that
              truth, a truth that can be proven, is not an assault upon the mahanta, it is an
              assault upon that which is untrue. If Harold Klemp as the mahanta and the
              eckankar organisation see, and feel, that this as an assault upon them, then it
              can only be because they have something to hide. Truth knows no fear, so why
              does the framework of eckankar hide behind a wall of silence, instead of making
              a stand upon its proclaimed truth in order to defend the truth of the sugmad and
              its faithful followers?

              Let those who have the eyes to see and the ears to ear reach their own verdict
              from the `Facts` provided by the framework of eckankar itself , and its
              application of its teachings by the mahanta. `By Their Actions Ye Shall Know
              Them`

              Dear friend, and the world, I rest my case.



              Usually Skeptical
              02/07/2004
              Top

              Response to eckie_99: I Took Your Test and Got An "A" !



              Dear ekie,

              Well, I looked at your test questions and have the answers... !.)

              1.)
              Q- What is more ethically incorrect?
              A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold

              2.)
              Q- Who is less truthful?
              A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold (that was just like #1!)

              3.)
              Q- Who is spiritually more developed?
              A- "C" Those who are not afraid to see and hear truth

              4.)
              Q- What is a bigger spiritual crime?
              A- "C" Not to give people the opportunity to know and choose truth over lies

              That wasn't so hard after all... was it!

              I graded it myself and got 100% correct!

              Usually Skeptical

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that
              rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"
              >
              > Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for
              complete context.)
              >
              > To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a
              long post though.
              >
              > (1)
              >
              > Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:
              >
              > [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
              self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug
              Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a
              personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul
              was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of
              something like Dialogues With The Master.
              >
              > The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs.
              Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something
              like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar
              Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic.
              This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was
              amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it
              today.
              >
              > So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard
              anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was
              news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left
              it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would
              run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.
              >
              > It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep
              impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the
              tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying
              something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush."
              [... .]
              >
              > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm
              >
              > (2)
              >
              > July 2001:
              >
              > "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my
              invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]
              >
              > Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't
              David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that?
              Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in
              its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar
              Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]
              >
              > http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25
              >
              > (3)
              >
              > July 2003:
              >
              > Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most
              part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant
              fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar
              to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his
              part ???
              >
              What are your on that stuff ?

              > I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact
              that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means
              this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the
              words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word
              for word from Rebazar Tarzs.

              > As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back
              at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He
              influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start
              writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and
              just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees
              that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it
              looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a
              spin-off.

              > It's all a matter of perspective.

              > I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked
              them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very
              similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also
              writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The
              Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's
              students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.

              > On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote
              this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm
              glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his
              popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about
              that. - Doug.
              >
              > http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz
              >
              > (4) February 2004:
              >
              > "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I
              can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers
              words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying
              them? Yes. [....]"
              >
              > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
              >
              > (5)
              >
              > March 2007:
              >
              > [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book,
              Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?

              > Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he
              trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?

              > I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The
              River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have
              taken The Far Country as something different.

              > So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of
              art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were
              fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust
              issue for them.

              > I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much
              more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual
              teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.

              > These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I
              always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was
              trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.

              In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave
              the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really
              like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write
              about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later,
              wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts
              are not exactly right?
              >
              > http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd
              >
              > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
              <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Prometheus,
              > >
              > > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It gives me peace
              of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank you for being such a wise
              soul.
              > >
              > > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that
              rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? The circus of
              eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder
              it is to believe that it can stand as an organization. It appears like a house
              of cards. Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and
              do you think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their
              membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event. Any ideas?
              > >
              > > Thanks
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
              > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
              (Revisited)
              > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Hello Janice and All,
              > > Interesting. I think I'll
              > > share some comments
              > > to your insights below.
              > >
              > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              > > "Prometheus,
              > >
              > > Now that is very interesting.
              > >
              > > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before
              I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a
              good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I
              was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a
              word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
              > >
              > > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I
              felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half
              awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male
              voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like
              figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the
              foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back.
              It did.
              > >
              > > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being
              a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more
              so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed
              the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
              > >
              > > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term
              relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me
              yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming
              an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
              > >
              > > ME (Prometheus): I know that
              > > many of us have had similar
              > > experiences of being attacked
              > > by negative entities and having
              > > to defend ourselves. In this case
              > > your RESA was, also, one of these
              > > negative beings. Too bad you
              > > couldn't protect yourself from
              > > them, but it's deceptive when
              > > one has placed trust in a RESA
              > > by assuming they are always
              > > positive and always on your side.
              > > They are as closed minded and
              > > defensive as is any religionist
              > > when protecting their dogma
              > > from too much scrutiny.
              > >
              > > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it
              attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the
              things I would not read as a<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
            • etznab@aol.com
              What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug Marman s use of the word facts . In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my
              Message 6 of 14 , May 6, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug
                Marman's use of the word "facts".

                In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my questions
                about Rebazar Tarzs on a.r.e. - it seemed to me that in some respects
                "facts" were somehow "secondary" to spiritual experience.

                I thoiught about the a.r.e. thread last night trying to fathom what
                Doug was saying about Paul's stories and things said (some of them) not
                based on facts. And frankly, it still didn't jive with me. Off hand I
                can remember at least two places where Paul Twitchell illustrated that
                Rebazar Tarzs "told him" what to write. In one place (I believe)
                Rebazar Tarzs comes to Paul's room, wakes him up, tells him to take up
                the pencil and write. (I'm referring to Dialogues With The Master and
                The Far Country.) So how can Doug suggest those were Paul's words based
                on a spiritual experience?
                Paul wrote (in so many words) that Rebazar Tarzs came and materialized
                in his room, and in one instance (I believe) the mattress sank from the
                weight of R.T. sitting on it.

                It would be nice if everybody didn't go away, all those Eckists on the
                newsgroups, and if the string of dialogues could continue today. I say
                this because there is a lot more information and examples available to
                share where many of "Paul's words" read as plagiarized from various
                books by other authors - none of them by the name of Rebazar Tarzs, or
                other Eck masters.

                ***

                "They" didn't succeed at booting me from a.r.e., and I didn't "move on"
                as once suggested. To the contrary I continued to research the FACTS -
                whether anybody likeed it or not - and have reams of examples (which
                can be illustrated and verified by REAL evidence and FACTS) about many
                of the things people were chewing on and debating over for years before
                I arrived. Some of the examples I (and others) have since found are
                those that not even David Lane was aware of (I'm talking about examples
                of Paul's writings compared with other authors) and I think probably
                that Doug Marman was unaware of.

                So new information has come in since the D.L. / D.M. debates, etc. New
                FACTS are now known. How facts can be important in one instance and
                something else in another ... I am not sure what Doug was talking
                about.

                I recall from the newspapers that sometimes when something happens that
                embarrasses the government and people want to know who is responsible -
                such as torture of prisoners, etc. - those higher up in the ladder
                have responded with things like: The first time I heard about it was
                from the news / newspaper. Iow, people claim ignorance and that they
                didn't know about something until it became public via the news. Well,
                to admit otherwise - and that they did know about it (and for a long
                time) - would be damning to them and public opinion would have them on
                a spike!

                Now I recall that (for some reason) Harold Klemp doesn't use the
                Internet. I'm sure he reads the newspapers and watches the news, but
                how much about the trove of FACTS regarding Paul's writings compared
                with other authors - INCLUDING REBAZAR TARZS - is in the newspapers, or
                on the evening news? (Maybe it should be?) Much of the new information
                and research has been put on the Internet. That's where it is (also in
                some books). And even there, we've probably all seen how apologists can
                argue against certain information being true, try to marginalize people
                and their research, even to the extent of suggesting (in so many words)
                that facts don't matter. Or, it's not about facts.

                Well, I've seen where it looks like people want to have it both ways.
                Facts matter. Facts don't matter. As far as research goes, and besides
                the stories of "spiritual experiences" that people send in, When was
                the last time the Eckankar website posted something about people doing
                real research into the stories told by Paul Twitchell? (Not to mention
                "research" about the stories sent in by Eckists today?) It was 1984
                when Harold came out with all that stuff about Paul Twitchell and when
                Harold did research. I wonder if they continue to research, or if (for
                some reason) it stopped a long time ago?

                Oh yeah, I remember it now.

                "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
                researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
                turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to say
                that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I [Doug
                Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the records.
                Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past, which
                Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough study.
                   
                "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
                about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
                further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and worked
                for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early days.
                So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [....] A few
                months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
                began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
                share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
                anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
                unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
                see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [....]"

                [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]

                "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                Singh, who is not the same person at all.
                "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

                [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                Harold Klemp - see link]

                http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

                They got reports? Hmm ... then maybe I should send in a report? :)

                I could give other examples where it looks like Eckankar is interested
                in stories from other people, including what people found by research.
                Apparently though, the LEM. isn't going to simply look at the Eck-Vidya
                and share answers to all of the questions people have. At the same time
                though, it looks like people pick and choose from all the information
                only what "THEY WANT" the facts to be and put the rest under the rug.

                If one disregards the reported facts written by Paul Twitchell
                concerning his meetings, encounters, and relationships with Eck Masters
                then where does it leave you? In Never Never Land with Peter Pan and
                Tinker Bell, etc.? (Hey look! He's playing a flute!)

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverland

                Are "spiritual experiences", the "stories" (and the stories that people
                send in) somehow more REAL than factual accounts which can be
                researched and verified? Or, Are "spiritual experiences" sometimes used
                as a label for anything a person wants to be true? Iow, does the land
                of make believe trump the actual facts? This is what it comes down to,
                IMO.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sat, May 5, 2012 10:57 pm
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                (Revisited)

                 
                BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus:

                A Calm And Peaceful Message For All

                Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is
                being typed.
                I have really been for the most part enjoying the dialogue on this
                message board.

                I would like to encourage Doug Marman to continue posting here. I think
                gradually
                we can all learn something that will help us move toward a greater
                understanding.

                We can do this together regardless of religious belief and possibly
                emerge in
                a place with no fences. I have many friends from different beliefs and
                something
                I have noticed in the last 10 years or so is that our differences don't
                separate
                us as much as they used to. There is a coming together of sorts and a
                move
                towards higher conciousness.

                I have seen this come about through heartfelt sharing of ideas.

                ***A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still an Eckist?

                I send all who read this my love

                Freeman

                Joey Ward
                02/09/2004
                Top

                Thanks Doug

                Thank you very much for the reply to the 5 questions that I asked of
                you. Also thanks for
                looking through Paul Twitchell's writings and finding the same thing
                that I found out about
                Paul not using the term MAHANTA until January 1969. It means a lot to
                me that you answered that question I ask a while back. I join Eckankar
                because the Mahanta was the highest state of consciousness in this
                world and in the inner worlds so said Paul Twitchell the 971st MAHANTA
                (the title he gave himself). I still wonder why Paul would say such a
                thing. To me this is the biggest lie that any person could say. To make
                up a line of Mahanta Masters, (highest state of consciousness and God
                made flesh) what was Paul thinking of. O' well !!! I guess the next
                time I see Paul in the astral library I will give him a kick in the
                pants.

                Thanks Doug,
                Joey Ward

                PS..... Doug, next time you see Harold, could you tell him that Joey
                would like to see Him
                start posting on The Truth Seeker Bulletin Board. It sure would be
                grand of Harold to do so.
                Thanks again for your help.

                Seeker For The Last Time
                02/08/2004
                Top

                Another X`Eckist Story

                I joined Eckankar in the early 80's, attracted partly because of their
                concept of Soul Travel
                and left in the mid-90's. I had become a 3rd Initiate by that time.
                Because of my outspoken
                aggressive remarks and asking too many questions about concealed facts
                about the organization, many wondered why the LEM had allowed me to
                reach that level.

                Initiations and secret words and the idea that we need a Master, mean
                nothing to me
                in this life because in my different existences I was connected to many
                of these concepts.
                There were times I needed these secret words and initiations and a
                Master and for those
                who need them now, it is OK. It is something many have to experience,
                if not in this lifetime,
                in a different one.

                In the mid-80's, I posted a few remarks on ARE. This was a good lesson
                for me, because
                some of the die-hard ECKists attempted to attack me with their "sword
                from the Sugmad"
                and "weed me out of the garden of ECK." I had no grudge against them
                because I knew
                they would learn to open their minds. At the time, they believed in
                what they did and
                that it was the right thing for them to do. I accepted it.

                I hadn't been on ARE for a long time but a few weeks ago I was impelled
                to go on it
                and out popped the information concerning Ford Johnson's book. In the
                past, ECKist
                would say it was the ECK or LEM. I ordered the book, which I am
                enjoying now.
                It brought back some memories of Eckankar.

                I was very surprised to see some of the die-hard and long-standing
                ECKists,including
                High Initiates, especially Nathan. This was a shock and it takes a lot
                to shock me. I am
                very happy for Nathan because we had communicated in the past. Nathan
                would make
                a very high class lawyer in this life(have no idea what he does). Boy,
                did he swing that
                sword for Eckankar. He left nothing standing. But that was then and now
                is now. I am
                happy, Nathan that you allowed yourself to open and move beyond the
                garden of ECK.
                There is so much more to learn.

                To some Eckankar is still a beautiful garden and I can respect that. I
                would like to stress
                that I have nothing against Eckankar and similar religions. They may be
                needed for souls
                to grow.

                I enjoyed reading the comments on this board..and I'll be back when I
                have time.

                I'll sign off with the name I used to use on ARE - Seeker, for the last
                time.

                Doug Marman
                02/08/2004
                Top

                A Few Responses

                I've received a number of comments to my last post.

                I will respond to some of the questions and comments.

                To Degar:

                I agree with you that no church, book or religion can replace the part
                of us
                that knows. We also both agree on the importance of fearlessness in
                seeing
                truth, and the importance of teachings with heart.

                My lights are fine, as are yours.

                To Joey Ward:

                I don't do yes or no questions, but I will try to keep my answers
                short:

                1. Did Paul Twitchell have the highest state of consciousness as the
                Godman
                as he told the world through his writings?

                I don't know how anyone could say who was highest or who is even higher
                than another.
                So, I would never say such a thing, myself. I don't even think having
                the highest state
                of consciousness should be anyone's goal. A person can gain a high
                state of consciousness
                and be unable to make a living here in the physical. That's not very
                useful.

                2. Does Harold Klemp have the highest state of consciousness as the
                Godman
                as he is telling the world throught his writings?

                Same as above, however, I will add this. I agree with the Sufis who say
                that there is
                what they call The Pole of The World. The Sufi teacher Ibn al' Arabi
                points out that this
                same principle applies at every level of human affairs. Another Sufi
                put it this way:
                "Just as there is someone who acts as the pole for the whole of
                humanity, so there
                are poles for every faith, community, occupation - even down to the
                level of towns."

                We sense when we are near such people since they seem to represent and
                carry the
                whole of the town or company or faith that they are a part of. Every
                age has those
                who carry the whole of things for the world at every level. We connect
                to that whole
                through their vision.

                However, I don't believe in saying who the Pole of the World is, since
                everyone needs
                to find this out for themselves. In fact, in most times through history
                the Pole of The
                World was hidden. The Sufis say this as well.

                3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?

                Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes.

                4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters
                names on them
                as if the Eck Master were saying them?

                Yes.

                5. Who do you Trust to tell the truth about Spiritual truths? Pick
                one only. [Names omitted]

                I see all teachings as mines. The good ones are gold mines, but they
                all need to be sorted
                through to find the pure gold. I have found no outer teachings that are
                pure gold.

                The only place to test the gold is within ourselves, when we try to use
                it in our lives.

                You might point to an outer person. I would rather point to our inner
                knowingness
                to recognize truth. We often do pick it up from others, however.

                To Journey:

                You asked: "If you are not trying to undermine Ford and his book
                "Confessions of a God Seeker," why did you give such a negative opinion
                about the book in The Chanhassen Villager last November?"

                If you read my comments to the Chanhassen Villager, just like in my
                last post, it is focused
                on the errors in what David Lane has reported and the unfortunate fact
                that Ford repeated
                these as if they were facts as David did. I am absolutely amazed at how
                far the distortion
                of truths from David Lane has spread. I was disappointed that the
                newspaper had not done
                better research, and that Ford had not as well, especially since David
                Lane himself suggested
                to Ford that he study my book more thoroughly to see what had been
                discussed via the Internet.

                I am just as amazed at how quickly and completely people assume that I
                am some kind
                of pawn in a battle or fighting some kind of war against Ford for
                pointing out the errors.
                I guess this goes to show how far off perceptions of someone else's
                motivations can be.
                People will imagine what my motivations are, but they are a million
                miles from the mark.

                I do agree that some people like to win their arguments no matter what,
                and since I have
                no interest in that, this is exactly why I have said I would say no
                more about such things
                unless folks here were interested. From the responses I've seen, there
                doesn't seem to be
                much interest in what I was writing about.

                I think you are right that we should all look at our motivations. I
                have certainly done so and
                have tried only to offer help in clearing up some of the confusions
                that have been going on
                for a while by getting to the facts. I have tried to stay far from
                criticizing anyone else's beliefs, although I do think some friendly
                dialogue in this area is good.

                I think it is just as important to look at the motivations for bringing
                up my personal motivations. I have not questioned Ford's motivations,
                nor would I. I think his intentions are sincere. Getting stuck over
                another person's so-called intentions is often the way our Censor stops
                us from seeing another person's point of view fairly.

                When we get so attached to our cause, anyone who says anything that
                appears to interfere
                with our cause becomes or enemy. The motivations of our enemies are
                always wrong
                in our minds. Ask them and they would say the same about their enemies.

                It is a sad fact that public dialogue over religious matters is almost
                impossible these days.
                This was not true in America during its early days. Public dialogue was
                often lively and contentious, but never came to people disowning their
                neighbors or rejecting their families and friends like it does today.

                As far as I am concerned, we are all friends here with a common
                interest in Spiritual Truth.
                That is how I see it. And we will each decide for ourselves what is
                true, as we should.

                To DD:

                You wrote: "You spend all of your time chipping away at the edges of
                the argument,
                finding miniscule points of contention (a minor date discrepancy here,
                a location there)
                but not once do you address the underlying core truth that is being and
                has been expressed
                here from the very beginning."

                Exactly right. So why is everyone getting so worked up about it? Why is
                no one simply
                acknowledging the minor points and letting it go? These are not core
                truths, just a matter
                of correcting errors in fact.

                No, I don't agree that my "can't we all get along" message doesn't help
                us get at the truth.
                In fact, let me say it this way: If we can not listen to those who see
                things differently than
                we do, then we will never see Truth. This doesn't mean we should all
                agree, but it certainly
                does mean that we should be able to hold respectful and friendly
                conversations with those
                who have a different way of seeing things. We should be open to
                learning from others.

                You wrote: "Your method is to find a few unimportant discrepancies and
                use them
                as an attempt to discredit the entire revelation of overall truth
                discovered."

                This is incorrect. I am only trying to point out the errors. I am not
                trying to discredit
                the entire message. But clearly, after we have seen the facts for what
                they are, the
                overall picture does change somewhat. That's natural.

                Since so many of David Lane's claims are in fact not based on facts at
                all, but merely
                on imagined intentions and speculations, I have also offered other
                possible interpretations.
                My point is not that David's guesses are wrong and mine are right, but
                simply to show how
                widely interpretations can vary when there are no facts.

                You are the one who is painting a picture of black and white, not I. I
                don't see David
                or Ford as all wrong, nor as all right. I say let's find the gold
                wherever we look.
                Why blame anyone for the fact that everything they offer is not pure
                gold?

                Lastly, you suggest that I am defending a teaching and that I am an
                apologist.
                Okay, perhaps I am. I don't feel that is what I am doing, but I can see
                it would look
                that way to you. But surely you see that your comments are the same.
                You are also
                defending your beliefs. In fact, everyone who has responded to my post
                on this
                bulletin board has picked at what I would call minor, technical details
                and completely
                avoided my points. This doesn't mean you or anyone else here is any
                less sincere,
                does it?

                To Nacal:

                You asked: "Where do you ever give a reference or a quote from your
                sources?"

                They are in my book, and have been thoroughly discussed on
                alt.religion.eckankar
                and can be found in the records there. I would be glad to present them
                here as well,
                if anyone was interested.

                You asked: "Why have you returned without answering the questions posed
                to you
                by site members in previous postings? When did Twitchell first write
                about the mahanta?
                Was it 1969 as one site member has stated?"

                I answered last time that I had just moved to a new home and my files
                were still packed
                in boxes. They are still packed in boxes, but a few are handy so I
                pulled out Paul's old
                Wisdom Notes and Illuminated Way Letters.

                You seem to be right. Paul didn't use the word, Mahanta, until the
                January 1969 Illuminated
                Way Letter and the February 1969 Wisdom Note. Before then he mainly
                used, The Master, Spiritual Traveler, Teacher, etc. Not even the
                mention of Living ECK Master very often, although Outer Master and
                living Master were mentioned often.

                This is interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

                You wrote: "You are also being untruthful when you say that you, "…
                have no
                desire to interfere with the beliefs of anyone."

                And how would you know that? You seem to know my own desires and
                intentions
                better than I do. Clearly I will need to ask you next time what my
                intentions and
                desires are.

                This is foolishness. Do you realize how hard it is to know the desires
                of your own children?
                How often do parents misunderstand what their children are trying to
                do? Have you never had this happen to you when you were a child? Yet
                you think you can actually guess my desires, when you don't even know
                me? Have we even met?

                Why do people spend so much time imagining they KNOW the intentions of
                those they
                disagree with?

                I see this with ECKists just as often as with David Lane and the group
                here. So, I'm not picking on this group. I see it as a real trap and an
                excuse to justify rejecting what another person has to say.

                You wrote: "You also claim to "have enjoyed the conversations on this
                bulletin board" and yet
                you only respond to selective questions."

                That's right. That was what I came here to share, after Ford claimed
                that I was not after the kind of truth that could be discussed openly
                and that my book was not about encouraging open dialogue. I came here
                for just that kind of dialogue, but guess what? No one here wants to
                discuss the facts or the errors openly.

                If I were Ford, I would care enough to make sure the facts I was using
                were accurate.
                I thought, especially as a lawyer, he would want to know.

                You wrote: "You attempt to confuse (like Paul and Harold) by twisting
                and abusing truth
                in order to blind the reader with your distortions and illusions of
                reality."

                If you really believe this, then why not point out a quote where you
                feel this is what I am attempting to do, rather than making broad
                accusations about my motivations? Why not just address directly what
                what I am saying and point out how you see it differently? I have no
                intention of twisting the truth in anyway at all.

                You wrote: "Is what Harold's teaches (Eckankar) a myth?

                "Since I brought the subject up can you tell me if the Holocaust was a
                myth or not?

                "Some things ARE black and white so just give a yes or no answer to the
                previously mentioned two questions. Please, no long-winded explanation,
                yes or no to each question."

                Sorry, I don't do yes or no answers, but I'll be glad to discuss your
                questions. Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught about Eckankar is a
                myth. Yes, I think a lot of what people think about the Holocaust is
                made up of myth as well. This doesn't mean that the Holocaust didn't
                happen, or that many of the stories or facts are lies. It just means
                that people often try to simplify things.

                History is largely made up of myth. There are a million personal
                individual stories about World War II, for example, yet the history
                books treat it as one thing that happened. The people who go through it
                don't see it the way the history books do. They were there, but the
                myths are what we can deal with to understand. Otherwise it is too
                complex.

                You wrote: "Doug, instead of focusing on David Lane or Ford's book
                let's now focus on the writings of Twitchell and Klemp and see where we
                can find inaccuracies, or is the world still flat to you? Did you like
                the posting from the May-June-July 1971 Mystic World about Twitchell?
                "No one really knows for sure where he came from, when he was born, or
                if his true name is even Paul Twitchell. How long he has been on this
                Earth planet is not known." Or, how about this quote from the same
                article, "Paul is known to the world as Peddar Zaskq, which is his real
                name, is an occidental." Wasn't this also his name for his last
                incarnation and his spiritual name?"

                Obviously we now know where he came from and was born (Paducah,
                Kentucky) and that his true name was not Paul Twitchell, but was John
                Paul Twitchell. We also now know when he was born (1909). Paul
                certainly didn't ever talk about these things, nor would he answer
                questions about them directly, and I think he liked the idea that his
                past was mysterious, and he helped to create this mysterious past. Yes,
                Paul is only known to the world as Peddar Zaskq because he told the
                world that was his spiritual name.

                And yes, this is the kind of writing that is mythological. Did you
                think I would say something else?

                You went on: "Let's now go back up to the preceding paragraph since you
                seem to claim to like "facts" (why don't you give your sources?). "But
                it is a fact that his Master Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan lama,
                who appears to be in his early forties, was a young man when Columbus
                discovered America." Now, was that really a "fact," or a delusional
                belief, or a deliberate lie? Or, is it that, "There is a need of the
                people to believe in the magic of a saviour, and Sri Paul Twitchell
                knows this and acts out the part" (same article)."

                It certainly is no fact, since there are no records nor anything else
                to prove that Rebazar Tarzs even exists, never mind how old he really
                is. However, there is no proof that it is a lie, either. It certainly
                sounds far-fetched. But I don't think the belief in saints, saviors and
                spiritual teachers comes from the desire to believe in magic. I think
                it comes from the innate memory within Soul that there is a truth and
                meaning to life that most of the world seems to have forgotten, but
                some remember.

                As Rumi once said, the reason that false gold is so popular is because
                there is such a thing
                as real gold.

                Of course, mixed with this is that many people want a father figure, or
                want someone to take
                care of them and tell them what is right and wrong.

                You wrote: "The sad thing is that there is no freedom in religion…
                there is only control through the use of fear and surrender of the
                common sense of having an open mind, and of course, the dangled carrot
                of initiation and hope."

                It certainly seems that way. To me, without freedom there is no point
                to a spiritual teaching. It is simply a social group. There is more
                peer pressure and more influence from the people who want everyone to
                be harmonious rather than speaking honestly, than control from above,
                but in general I agree with you.

                You wrote: "Paul states, "Ramaji was one of the first initiates in the
                ancient Order of the Vairagi." It seems Paul has a problem spelling his
                name. "Ji" is a Hindu suffix used to denote respect and affection. But,
                Paul is not speaking of Rama."

                Why do you think that Paul is referring to someone different than Rama?
                The Hindus often add the "ji" to the end of a name, and sometimes it is
                written with only the "j". Take the name Shamus-i-Tabriz. Generally
                this is spelled, Shams of Tabriz. Same person. Jalalludin Rumi is
                spelled dozens of ways. Sometimes he is also called Mevlana. Same
                person. Sometimes it is written Shabda Yoga, sometimes Shabd Yog.
                Sometimes Yoga is spelled Joga. I interpret this quote from Paul to be
                referring to the same person as Rama, but if you feel otherwise I would
                find it interesting to hear why.

                You asked: "By the way, why has Harold evaded giving his birth date and
                age?"

                I don't know. Probably because it is a personal fact that has nothing
                to do with his role. But maybe it is just a hold-over from Paul. You
                would have to ask him. My guess is that he doesn't want people holding
                birthday parties because of his birthdate.

                You wrote: "Also, why is it Doug that on page 282 that Harold, the
                mahanta, doesn't even know today about an experience he had in1970. He
                states, "Was he really an ECK Master? Who can say?" Shouldn't the
                Master who is greater than the God of all religions know such things?"

                I would have to read the whole quote in context. It sounds to me as if
                Harold is asking a rhetorical question. In other words, who can say if
                he was a Master then?

                Actually the question I ask is how did Darwin know that he was the
                Mahanta, or how does Harold know this? Isn't this like any initiate who
                might think they have gained the next initiation? Isn't this the same
                question? How do they really know?

                You ask: "Are the initiations in Eckankar valid as a means to greater
                spiritual growth over those who are non-eckists? Or, is this a myth
                too?"

                I think the initiations are a mixed bag. There is definitely reality to
                them, from my personal experience. But they have become filled with
                myths as well. I can tell you that real Self-Realization is rare, HI or
                not. The initiation level doesn't prove anything. It is more meaningful
                as a personal matter than a comparison to others. I don't think anyone
                should be judging another person's worth or truth by what initiation
                level they are at. Including the Master.

                You asked: "Paul states on page 136 of Difficulties Of Becoming The
                Living ECK Master, "Cause with all of that, see, I write books in
                series. I have four books that are finished now; well, the Shariyat is
                a continued writing, but I've got three books actually." So Doug,
                where's book three? If it wasn't finished why didn't Harold go to the
                Astral Library to finish it?"

                Paul wrote a number of the first chapters to book three. I think he got
                to chapter three or four. That's as far as it has gotten. I think that
                Harold thought about completing book three but for some reason decided
                it wasn't his place to do so. I would be surprised if Harold ever
                finishes book three, or tries to. But you would have to ask him if you
                wanted to know.

                You wrote: "Was the "Moon Virus" that Twitchell warned of a myth or a
                self-promotional lie,
                or did he make an erroneous assumption or was it just conjecture (page
                234 of "Difficulties")? Show me where Kirpal Singh's name is used with
                Sudar Singh's?"

                I have no idea where Paul got the idea of the Moon Virus from. He
                certainly used it to gain some news. It is similar in some ways to the
                HIV virus in the way it has stumped the scientists, but I have heard no
                connection to the moon.

                Here is the first quote of Paul's where he mentions Sudar Singh, from
                the January 1964 Orion
                magazine:

                "I began my study of bilocation under the tutelage of Satguru Sudar
                Singh, in Allahabad, India. Later, I switched to Sri Kirpal Singh of
                old Delhi. Both were teaching the Shabda Yoga, that which is called
                the Yoga of Sound Current. I had to learn to leave my body at will and
                return, without effort..."

                Here is another quote from my book:

                "I have since found two other early articles of Paul's, that show the
                same thing: An article that ran in early 1966 called, Can You Be In Two
                Places At The Same Time?, shows Sudar Singh, from Allahabad, India,
                along with Bernard of England, a Self-Realization Swami who has a
                retreat in Maryland, Kirpal Singh of Delhi, India, and Rebazar Tarzs, a
                Tibetan monk.

                "The second article was called, The God Eaters, and ran in the November
                1964 issue of The Psychic Observer. In the article Paul talks about
                Rebazar Tarzu [sic], who he "made contact with...through bilocation,"
                and Kirpal Singh as his teachers. These examples clearly show that both
                Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs were referred to, side by side with
                Kirpal Singh. It was not until late 1966 before Paul suddenly stopped
                referring to Kirpal Singh."

                You wrote: "You mention that you talked to Patti Simpson and basically
                she says it was "funny" how Paul would evade giving out information on
                himself. You wrote that Paul tried to leave information blank "when it
                came to filling out official forms," but found that, "they would gladly
                accept whatever he wrote whether it was right or wrong." In truth,
                Paul intentionally lied and mislead people. Ironically, this is one
                "fact" that you have supplied to help prove the validity of David
                Lane's claim! This is also proof that you don't even listen to your own
                words! Perhaps, this is because your conscious subjective (self) is to
                evade, and your unconscious objective Self (God-Soul) is to impart
                truth."

                If you want to imagine that, go ahead. I think there is a big
                difference between someone who is intentionally trying to mislead
                people about their age, and a person who refuses to give out their age.
                But if you want to say that both are technically lies, that's fine with
                me. It seems to me that you are just trying to make it look like
                something it isn't.

                Remember, the picture that David painted is that Paul lied to Gail
                about his age, as he had lied about his age his whole life. In fact,
                Gail knew perfectly well that Paul wasn't giving out his age, and so
                did everyone else. Pretty different picture if you ask me.

                Here's a similar example. David was accused of copyright infringment
                many years ago (ironic, isn't it?). It was over a book written about J
                R Hinkins group. Under oath he said one thing. In his deposition, also
                under oath, he said the opposite. The judge politely said that his
                testimony was untrustworthy. David claims that he was not trying to
                lie, he just didn't remember it correctly. However, the testimony shows
                that the first story he told seemed like the one that would best help
                his case. Later it turned out to be exactly the wrong thing, so when
                asked the same question in court, he answered the opposite way. He lost
                his case over this.

                Would you call that lying? David doesn't. I'll take David's word for it
                that he just forgot, even though it looks otherwise. I guess that's
                just how I am.

                You wrote: "Doug you have imagined facts through your own distorted
                belief system of myth being reality. You seem to be confused as you
                spread confusion to others (somewhat like Typhoid Mary).You have no
                idea of what fact or truth is because you are unable to hear truth."

                Mighty big claims. Why not just show me the quotes where you think I'm
                off base and share how you see it? Why imagine that I am unable to see
                truth?

                I'm sure I see it differently than you do. But I have few illusions
                about Paul. My point was to show how many illusions that David had,
                while claiming otherwise. Ford's book has got them now, too, since he
                was taken in by David's story. The irony is that those who are most
                concerned about pointing out the lies and illusions of others are often
                just as unwilling to admit and correct their own.

                However, if you feel that I've made any errors, please point them out.
                David caught a few, and I immediately corrected them. I would like to
                make my book as accurate as possible, and I'm in the process of making
                another edit to include the latest information, since we are always
                learning new things.

                Thanks for asking specific questions. More of this would make a real
                dialogue worthwhile.
                And I am glad to share the specific evidence behind my comments if
                anyone is interested.

                Doug.

                Degar
                02/08/2004
                Top

                Be The Now!!

                If you are a follower of the Clear Light and Silent Sound, then you
                follow the natural order of who you really are as Beingness. The secret
                between the truth and the lie, is intention. Intention is the prime
                mover of awareness. How many really see themselves as the observer and
                the observed, the now, the present. Look only to the temple within
                yourself, no church, building or outer temple will ever point the way.
                In fact remove or demolish all these objects of glory, pride and self
                righteousness for in the heart of the now resides the gift. "Remind all
                those that show you the way to the false temple of mortar and brick
                that you have out grown their cage and See now with the Spiritual eye
                only Truth."

                NO RELIGION can hold GOD to a given doctrine! Even the doctrine of
                Light and Sound…..

                Freedom can not be bound and Freedom will destroy all that try to hold
                it.

                Man is a funny creature, he seeks the company of the one and only
                primal cause even until death. He is even willing to kill to be near to
                it. He believes that distance exists between himself and his Maker and
                he must make a journey back to the Godhead. Knock, knock, is anyone
                home? Soul exists because it is GOD. God has never posed the question,
                "I love Soul". Your Higher Self JUST IS, no more
                - no less.

                Wake up!

                Dance, Sing and Be.

                "All thing must pass away" – George Harrison

                Hold on to the social consciousness if you must but as Ford and Gram
                are saying they only
                opened the door you must walk through and see Freedom for yourself. Not
                their truth, but yours.

                After the Temple of Eck was built, I made a number of visits to it. On
                one of my visits I noticed that the temples main entrance floor was
                cracked right down the middle. Eckankar had it repaired, so no one had
                any idea what had happened. If that had occurred in my life, I would
                have asked what Spirit was saying to me? Well I did….. What it told me
                was that the office(ORG) and the temple side(Spiritual) had a major
                division between them. Another way of seeing it was that the true
                teachings of Eck were no longer within the organization.

                Fear is the last thing to go…… Pure awareness of consciousness can only
                be experienced
                without fear.

                The events unfolding before us have the blessing of the Holy Order of
                the World Adepts
                or it would not be.

                This is not an end to something, but more of a beginning.

                Degar *

                Kermit
                02/08/2004
                Top

                Solipsist Reprieve: My Story -- Why I Left Eckankar

                Soul, if It exists, could have entered into the agreement to share the
                Eckankar dream. The purpose may have been for spiritual experience: to
                advance spiritually and learn to be of service in a better and higher
                way and to consciously learn a few other things, like the nature of
                illusion and deception. But if I believe that soul exists, then I am
                asking for another round of belief lessons. I had spiritual
                experiences, but how do I know that they are real now? All I know is
                that I am here now and even those two adverbs are suspect.

                Now it is the age of Aquarius and the Piscean age is over. Some
                astrologers say that the religions of the intercessor between man and
                God were an aspect of the Piscean phase. It is a strong aspect of the
                Aquarian age that the veils of the intercessors be lifted. And it
                implies a dark night for the wizard who commands his followers to
                "ignore that man behind the curtain." It is a bright day for expose'
                writers. Since reading the book, I have seen other works that expose
                Christianity and Judaism. All the political books are pointing out
                lies told by the governments and the other party and the history books.
                For the Christians out there: your version of "Confessions" may be the
                works of Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. Lies and damn lies. All
                religions are of the cloth of deception, regardless of whose face is on
                the master.

                So it appears that Eckankar has decided to maintain its position as a
                spiritual middle school. We all saw this coming, felt it in many ways
                and Ford articulated it for our minds in a way that we could no longer
                ignore. We knew about David Lane and some of the plagiarism years ago
                and chose to forgive it. We wondered why Rebazar couldn't appear for a
                TV spot, if he was so physical. We were uncomfortable about Darwin
                being written out of history. The restrictive guidelines.

                When I went to receive my fifth initiation, the internal phrase kept
                repeating: "The bloom is off the rose. . . the bloom is off the rose."
                I wondered what that meant, but the meaning is emerging. The days of
                believing in Santa Clause are past. Time to take the next step in
                becoming emancipated. Joseph Campbell said that his studies gave him
                an overview of the myths and religions that precluded his having any
                spiritual experiences himself. It is like the old saying that he who
                carved the Buddha cannot worship it.

                But I had just finished the book and was casting about and asked spirit
                if it was true. The image of an animated Rebazar peered headfirst into
                my inner vision and then started to mirror every movement I made. I
                had never had an experience with him, but the message was that I was
                doing it and so I might as well quit struggling against the curriculum.
                "No more Mother Goose stories for you and you can pretty much forget
                about the tooth fairy," it told me.

                Now I suspect why Harold is always telling fairy tales. I see an image
                now of Paul laughing, after telling his audience that only a handful of
                them would understand what he was trying to say. What if he was trying
                to say that only deception exists in the world of illusion? Is Harold
                hinting that the teachings are a fairy tale used to teach a different
                lesson?

                Masters and lying liars do not come clean. But there may be more to
                this learning than is apparent. What if Harold had told us that he had
                discovered the truth about the whole sham and just said,

                "Well, you can call me Harold or you can call me Gerald, but you
                doesn't have to call me Sri anymore." Would that have been masterful?
                I do not know, but he didn't say that. He built a temple instead.

                One of the wake-up calls for me was an Ask-the-Master session for RESAs
                in one of the recent books. Those guys didn't know anything. They
                were asking questions and Harold was describing worlds and temples and
                I would like to think that RESAs should have been able to access that
                information themselves, if the path was working.

                But no mastership is happening here. With Eckankar producing only two
                and a half masters in almost 38 years, I was starting to worry that I
                wasn't on the short list, anyway. We're all better than we were and we
                are better public speakers, but that is not what we came for.

                We came onto the path because it promised mastership/enlightenment.
                One of the unspoken truths is that we don't have a chance of reaching
                it by way of Eckankar. It has been boiling us like frogs: slowly. By
                the time we have been around long enough to know that no one is going
                to go beyond the 8th initiation, except one guy, our minds are no
                longer independent enough to get that this path to mastership is not
                working and it not going to work.

                Now we have talked ourselves out of a way of life. Harold would
                probably say we have talked ourselves into a Dark Night of Soul. But
                that's the kind of beating we would be in for if we stayed around.

                I took a class with a lot of law enforcement types at one time. They
                said that everyone, except the most committed sociopath, has a need to
                tell the truth. The body language, tonal patterns and eye movements
                combine with other unconscious clues to betray a lie or a concealed
                truth. One way to conceal and deceive is to tell nothing but lies like
                Kevin Spacey's character in "The Usual Suspects." This may be how Paul
                Twitchell did it. There is a book about this subject called "Telling
                Lies" by Paul Ekman. It has been staring at me from my bookshelf for
                years and it has gradually dawned on me that the title and author may
                contain a hint.

                My inner voice says that there is only the one I Am that smears itself
                across the living tapestry and reabsorbs itself after one lifetime or
                many. So this baby is going out with the bath water.

                Thanks for tipping the scales.

                Kermit

                Journey
                02/07/2004
                Top

                Reply to GPk: On Unloving Attitudes

                Dear GPk,

                As to your unloving and lack of understanding attitude, I based that on
                what you said, especially in regards to your unkind words to Usually
                Skeptical.
                You also seem to be putting down people who are posting here on this
                message board. You continue to direct negative comments to others on
                this site. You come across as a very angry person so I am not
                surprised that my comments bothered you so much. You confused me
                because you sound like you are still an Eckist in your attacks.

                You are wrong in assuming I'm stuck/holding on to the teachings of
                Eckankar. I was not a member that long, but I read all of Harold's
                transcripts and several other books, attended Satsang classes, etc.
                From the get-go, it seemed like a lot of double talk and
                confusing--lots of contradictions. Your postings also attack Ford in
                that you said he was going to become the leader of a new religion, that
                would be no different from any other group. I think you are the one
                hung up on Eckankar. I am glad you are reading Ford's book. Then, I
                think your comments here would be made with a better perspective,
                regardless of your take on Ford's writings.

                It is obvious that the only self awareness that you have ever achieved
                has been of the little self. You seem to be still experiencing the
                brain washing of Eckankar. The comments that you have made indicate
                that you are only aware of the little self, rather than the higher
                self. Your initiation did not give you self-realization. This is the
                flaw I see in your reasoning. But this is all understandable because of
                the length of time you spent in the Eckankar organization--you have
                more to dump than I do. There is a massive amount of flawed concepts
                along with certain truths that have been mixed to such a degree that it
                is almost impossible to decipher it all. In addition to anger, there is
                fear that there is no truth out there--that you will not be able to
                find it. This is, perhaps, the root of your negativity that you have
                lashed out on this site. This is my understanding.

                Also, I have not touted the degree of my spirituality as you have. I am
                only a Truth Seeker.

                Best regards and good reading,
                Journey

                Willy
                02/07/2004
                Top

                FS Response To Ecki99 Plus 2 Laws

                Thanks for the thorough response to the questions raised by Ecki99 and
                others. As one other book (Christian Bible) often quoted notes "by
                their fruits ye shall know them". Why do so many Eckists see the
                activities of HCS and former members of Eckankar as a threat? There
                are no lawsuits filed, there are no media exposes, there is just the
                statement of spiritual truths as experienced by those who have taken
                the next step. There is no massive attempt to force Eck chelas to
                leave their path, if that is where they are comfortable. To each his
                own.

                Harold has made much of Richard Maybury's two laws namely:

                1. Do all you say you will do. (Your word is your bond, honor it.)
                2. Do not encroach on others or their property. (Respect the integrity
                of others.)

                I really like these two laws, since they contain so much of spiritual
                truth in so few words. And this world would surely be a much better
                place if they were practiced by more people as individuals, by nations,
                and by spiritual paths. Perhaps the organization of Eckankar and its
                leaders should consider how well they are honoring these two laws,
                especially in regard to former members and also in regard to current
                members.

                FS
                02/07/2004
                Top

                Response to Eckie_99: The Real Impact of Eckankar Mythology and The
                Role of HCS

                Dear eckie_99

                I may be starting to look predictable with the way I present my views
                to this website, but, as many of the questions put to this site are in
                defence of eckankar mythology, then one way of replying to these
                questions is to use the very mythology that is being defended in order
                to express the truer side of eckankar, the side the mahanta does not
                want to be seen. This reply therefore will be no exception. I feel sure
                that this will meet with your approval., seeing as I am using the
                constructed, contrived, compilations of the master compiler, one Paul
                Twitchell.

                I quote your own words:

                b. A Person who builds a framework that can help people grow
                spiritually, and shows it to the world, to be judged on its own merits.

                There is one point that you have failed to address in your defence of
                eckankar being a framework that can help people grow, and that is, `The
                growth of people spiritually within the framework of eckankar is
                dependant on Harold's acceptance as to what he sees as spiritual
                growth, or more accurately stated, what he is prepared to accept as
                `Truth`. I will therefore show to the world, and to you, another side
                of how this framework of eckankar really operates in helping the
                individual grow spiritually, and let the world judge it on its own
                merits. Firstly, let the world see some of the teachings of eckankar
                that will be relevant to this reply.

                Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                " Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and
                the tests given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears.
                Every Spiritual Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela
                to call upon the Master. If the vision fails to reply then it is
                false".

                Shariyat, book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                "Be on guard, lest he who seeks without the Vi-Guru finds those who
                only appear as the Holy One, claiming to be angels, or saints. Let
                none deceive the chela. If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he
                cannot be deceived by the kal Niranjan. If he has not the armour of
                Spirit, he can be misled".

                Shariyat, book 1, page 149. Third Printing 1972:
                "The ECKist knows that the presence of the Living ECK Master is always
                with him. He is never alone".

                What is presented here to the world, and yourself , is the truth of my
                own experience while within this framework of eckankar and its leader,
                the mahanta. Here is part of my letter to Harold Klemp in regards to my
                journal of recorded inner experiences that was sent to him while
                following this framework of eckankar, that you say, " can help people
                grow spiritually",

                "All that is contained within the journal has withstood the tests of
                the secret words that are
                required to be used to prove their validity and all that you are about
                to read, I stand by as true."

                Now friend, let the world see what the teachings of eckankar say about
                the inner experiences
                of a chela and how they are viewed within this framework.

                "The Shariyat book 2, pages 50-51: Second Edition 1988:
                "No ECK Master will acknowledge his appearance to another person.
                This is neither modesty nor is it a feeling of hiding something; in a
                sense he is letting the individual decide for themselves whether it was
                really him. He wants them to decide if it was reality. In this way he
                is not telling, nor confirming his presence with them in the Atma
                Sarup, but allowing them the independence of knowing and understanding
                whether it was actually him.

                If a person makes up his mind that the living ECK Master really
                appeared to him, then he knows it and this cannot be taken away from
                him, regardless. However, if he has to be told that it was the ECK
                Master, then he is always in doubt, for it was an outside source which
                gave him his information and not himself. It is superficial knowledge
                and not from his own inner source.

                He must always remember that the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master is not
                the one to tell him of his inner experiences, nor whether the ECK
                Master has appeared to him. But he must know this with a faith that is
                beyond anything that he has experienced and, therefore, it will stay
                with him. Otherwise it may fade in time, and the experiencer soon
                forgets whether it was really the ECK Master".

                Now let the world see the reply from the leader of this framework of
                eckankar that helps
                the individual to grow spiritually.

                Reply from Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of inner experiences
                while a chela under
                his claimed protection as the mahanta.

                "In response to your letter and journal of inner experiences which led
                you to think you have
                received the Rod of Eck Power. You have not.

                Your instincts were right not to believe this. The Kal misled you."

                Let it be explained to the world, and your own good self, that there
                was never any claim made to me having had received the rod of eck
                power, only that it was a possibility. Therefore, before we go any
                further, Harold Klemp is wrong in his statement. Now we must look at
                his other words, those of `The Kal Misled You`. Now friend, after
                being told I was misled by the kal, even though I have Harold's
                assurance that, `If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be
                deceived by the KAL Niranjan.`. he then fails to explain how this could
                have happened and failed to give any further guidance as to what I
                could do to prevent it happening again, although as we can see by the
                promise of this framework, I should never have been misled in the first
                place.

                Having now told me I was mistaken, Harold then goes on to lay the
                karmic responsibility upon me for being responsible for leading others
                off the path of eck.

                "This happens more often than one would care to believe. People who
                fall for this trick and
                mislead others off the path of eck become responsible for the karma."

                Let the world and yourself take note of these words, for we are told
                something very interesting here; "This happens more often than one
                would care to believe." Are not these words very thought provoking? Is
                Harold admitting that being misled by the kal while within this
                framework of eckankar,and, having his protection of the Vi-Guru, being
                misled by the kal is a common occurance? If this is so, then the
                claimed protection of the vi-guru must be failing to work. Not only
                that, the secret words must also be failing. Let the world see what
                eckankar has to say about the protection of its secret words:

                Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and
                the tests given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears.
                Every Spiritual Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela
                to call upon the Master. If the vision fails to reply then it is
                false".

                Let it go on record that the visions within the journal's inner
                experiences did reply and that I used the Word, and Words as is asked
                of the chela. Some of these words being Sugmad, Wah Z, HU, Mahanta, or
                any of the names of the masters of the vairagi.

                Here I think we should let the world know just how important this
                figure of the mahanta, the vi-guru really is, otherwise they may not
                fully realise just how powerful the mahanta truly is?

                Shariyat book 2 page 196. Second Edition 1988:
                "The eck works are the most powerful in this world; and the mahanta,
                the living eck master, who is the vehicle and channel for the eck, is
                the most powerful being within the physical world, as well as the
                planets and all the planes within the worlds of God."

                Shariyat, book 1 says on page 81. Third Printing 1972:
                "He is stronger than any man in intellect or spirit, for he has
                unlimited power, and yet this strength is combined with the noble
                virtues of the humble and gentle. All people find in him inspiration
                for the development of noble character".

                Shariyat, book 2 page 184 Second Edition 1988:
                "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master has other titles. He is the
                Godman, the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver, protector of the poor, the king
                of heaven, saviour of mankind, the scourge of evil, and the defender of
                the faithful. He is the real and only power in all the universes of
                God. No one can harm him without his consent, for all that is done to
                him is given permission by the ECK, with his consent".

                To help further my spiritual growth within this framework of eckankar,
                the mahanta now goes on to say:

                "As a spiritual discipline you are put back to the First Circle of
                initiation and are to stand aside from all eck duties for the present."

                We can show the world that this is also against what the framework of
                eckankar teaches:

                Dialogues With The Master page 172:
                First Printing 1990 "Remember this that those who demand respect and
                love of others to themselves are only exercising the negative or
                attracting power. The true teachings do not discipline in any way; do
                not set up duties or difficulties or tasks for teaching their
                disciples."

                This framework also tells the world, and its followers, that the
                teacher will bring about any changes needed within a chela without any
                pain or difficulties.

                Illuminated Way Letters 1966-1971 page 54 Copyright 1975 by Gail
                Twitchell Gross:
                "It is doubtful that the teacher will sit with his chela and discuss
                any character faults of the aspirant. Hardly ever will the teachers
                tell anyone what is wrong with himself, but he will concentrate on the
                error and bring about the change from the inner to the outer world,
                without pain or difficulty to the chelas, very often without the chela
                having any conscious awareness of it."

                Dear friend, and the world. I am fully aware of what this framework of
                eckankar has done to me, I am also fully aware of what this framework
                has done to many others, and this is the reason why the framework of
                the H.C.S. was brought about. It was brought about to help those who
                have suffered the injustice of eckankar at the hands of its
                mythological mahanta and to give them support and a free voice.

                We can now look to another aspect of this frameworks teachings, if not
                its practice, that of calling upon the master when the chela finds
                themselves in any difficulty:

                I was now left with no other recourse to attain further guidance other
                than to write to the mahanta at the physical level. As yet, nothing has
                been given. Now for the eckankar apologists they can say, "Get It On
                The Inner", but, and this is very very very important, how can the
                individual `Get It On The Inner` when the mahanta has just told the
                individual that all they have received on the inner is the misleadings
                of the kal? That the chela has the right to call upon the mahanta is
                given in the frameworks teachings. Not only has the chela the right to
                call upon the mahanta, but the mahanta is bound by his duty to answer
                each and every call of this nature. Let the world see the following
                exhibit:

                Illuminated Way Letters, 1966-1971, PAGE 130 Copyright 1975 by Gail
                Twitchell Gross: "Whenever the chela experiences any difficulty with
                himself such as falling into the negative trap, or even with Soul
                Travel, he should call upon the Master to assist him, or conduct him as
                the soul traveller to the spiritual worlds. For the Living ECK Master
                is bound by his mission to answer each and every call of this nature".

                Let it go on record, that the mahanta has failed in his duty, both to
                give the inner protection that his framework promises to give, and that
                he has also failed to assist a chela when called upon to do so. Now
                the world can see what the framework of eckankar says about a master
                failing in his duty:

                Shariyat, book 2, page 219. Second Edition 1988:
                "If he falters or fails; it is possible that he may be taken out of
                this position; and if he falters in his responsibility while serving as
                the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, it is possible that he must step
                down for another to take his place".

                Unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to let all see the contents of my
                journal and come to their own understanding, and, unlike the mahanta,
                I am prepared to answer any questions that others may wish to ask. The
                framework of the H.C.S. has provided this facility for openness and
                free speech, the framework of eckankar has provided only threats to
                those who voice dissension and doubt.

                Shariyat, book 1, page 91. Third Printing 1972:
                "To ridicule, to scorn, to speak mockingly of the word of the Mahanta,
                and not to have faith in him and the cause of ECK is to bring woes on
                the advocator of doubt. It brings his karmic progress to a halt,
                increases his incarnations in this world, and causes him to suffer
                untold hardships".

                Even if a chela, or chela's tries to broach a question that is not
                wanted by the framework of
                eckankar and its leader, its teachings provide a guidance for the party
                faithful of how to view
                this dissesion within the ranks.

                Shariyat, book 2, pages 25-26. Second Edition 1988:
                " It must be remembered that all complaints and all arguments against
                the ECK, which are directed at the Mahanta, are the works of the Kal.
                Such assaults on the Mahanta are those which originate from the Kal
                using the minds and consciousness of those persons within its power to
                destroy the Mahanta and the ECK, if at all possible. These are the
                works of the Kal, who uses religion, ministers, and lay persons to
                bring about the downfall of the ECK, because it is the truth. There
                will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and disguise themselves
                under the robes of the ECK, but they are prophets with false faces who
                are lying to the ECKist`s , but few if any who are true followers of
                the ECK are ever deceived by these agents of the Kal".

                What Harold Klemp and the eckankar organisation have chosen to ignore
                is that truth, a truth that can be proven, is not an assault upon the
                mahanta, it is an assault upon that which is untrue. If Harold Klemp as
                the mahanta and the eckankar organisation see, and feel, that this as
                an assault upon them, then it can only be because they have something
                to hide. Truth knows no fear, so why does the framework of eckankar
                hide behind a wall of silence, instead of making a stand upon its
                proclaimed truth in order to defend the truth of the sugmad and its
                faithful followers?

                Let those who have the eyes to see and the ears to ear reach their own
                verdict from the `Facts` provided by the framework of eckankar itself ,
                and its application of its teachings by the mahanta. `By Their Actions
                Ye Shall Know Them`

                Dear friend, and the world, I rest my case.

                Usually Skeptical
                02/07/2004
                Top

                Response to eckie_99: I Took Your Test and Got An "A" !

                Dear ekie,

                Well, I looked at your test questions and have the answers... !.)

                1.)
                Q- What is more ethically incorrect?
                A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold

                2.)
                Q- Who is less truthful?
                A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold (that was just like #1!)

                3.)
                Q- Who is spiritually more developed?
                A- "C" Those who are not afraid to see and hear truth

                4.)
                Q- What is a bigger spiritual crime?
                A- "C" Not to give people the opportunity to know and choose truth over
                lies

                That wasn't so hard after all... was it!

                I graded it myself and got 100% correct!

                Usually Skeptical

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"
                <etznab@...> wrote:
                >
                > "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"
                >
                > Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original
                links/threads for complete context.)
                >
                > To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is
                still a long post though.
                >
                > (1)
                >
                > Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online
                book:
                >
                > [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
                self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day
                I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in
                the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his
                home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was
                trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The
                Master.
                >
                > The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by
                Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely
                sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was
                mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a
                discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I
                can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and
                I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.
                >
                > So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had
                ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested,
                told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I
                told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes
                I was sorting through, but I would run ho<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Etznab and All, Yes, as you ve pointed out (below) both Marman and Klemp have similar versions about the facts concerning Twitchell s fictional account
                Message 7 of 14 , May 8, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hello Etznab and All,
                  Yes, as you've pointed
                  out (below) both Marman
                  and Klemp have similar
                  versions about the "facts"
                  concerning Twitchell's
                  fictional account of meeting
                  Rebazar Tarzs. Too bad
                  they overlooked Twitchell's
                  version, and the timeline
                  conflict, from his June,
                  1971 interviews which
                  are mentioned in "Difficulties
                  Of Becoming The Living
                  ECK Master":

                  [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]

                  "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                  Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                  1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                  Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                  Singh, who is not the same person at all.

                  "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                  whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                  all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                  more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                  initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                  "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                  just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                  report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                  Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

                  [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                  Harold Klemp - see link]

                  http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

                  ********************************

                  Fact: Twitchell was born on Oct. 22, 1908
                  (According to Harold Klemp).

                  Fact: Twitchell states on page 45 of "Difficulties:"
                  "Sudar Singh... He died, I believe, if I'm correct,
                  1937; could have been a year or two off someway
                  there, but it was approximately in that year he
                  passed away. We [Paul and his sister Kay-Dee]
                  stayed there almost a year and were shipped
                  home because our parents were screaming bloody-
                  murder, and then finally they cut our money off
                  and we were forced to return."

                  ME: PT is, basically, saying that at 15 years of
                  age this was his 1st trip to India. More "facts"
                  to prove this are listed later.

                  Fact: Harold Klemp attended and graduated
                  from a private Lutheran all boys school and
                  seminary.

                  Fact: Twitchell states on page 47 of "Difficulties"
                  "... the same thing occurs in the seminaries of
                  the Christian church. These Christian seminaries,
                  when you're training boys to grow up, they are
                  looking for all the things which will explain to
                  them manhood or the problems of life. It can
                  create sexual aberrations... you can walk around
                  the corner of one of the ashrams or the monasteries
                  and find the boys there abusing themselves." (pg 47)

                  ME: It's possible, according to Twitchell, that
                  this "abuse" contributed to Klemp's mental
                  break-down circa 1969-70.

                  Fact: Twitchell states on page 48 of "Difficulties:"
                  "After I had left India, came home, I was then about
                  sixteen, I had a year or so to do some work in order
                  to finish my degree."

                  ME: PT Born 1908, plus, age 15 equals 1923.

                  Fact: Twitchell states on page 70 of "Difficulties:"
                  "Well, anyway, in about 1947, it was right shortly
                  after the Indians nation, India received their freedom
                  from England and then became a nation, and they
                  had the great riots and that was over with. I went
                  over to Darjeeling in the east section of India.
                  Darjeeling is up in the northeast of India, right on
                  the Sikkim border.... I went up there at the time
                  after being over in Allahabad, and there wasn't
                  much left there after Sudar Singh had passed away."

                  FYI: [Actually PT changed Kirpal Singh's name to
                  Sudar Singh, and Kirpal died two years after Paul
                  in 1973]

                  PT: "But then I went there and I'd been told
                  that I would find the ECK Master Rebazar Tarzs.
                  I've got something about that in one of my books,
                  I think it's Introduction to ECK in which I have it...
                  I stayed there for quite some time with him, six
                  to seven months... Now, he initiated me there.
                  I had already been initiated by Sudar Singh, the
                  same as everybody else, the second initiation.
                  And then I got the third and the fourth. I went
                  up through about the seventh at this particular
                  time.

                  Then he moved across over into Kashmir,
                  up in the Hindu Kush Mountains, and later
                  [1951] but not on this trip, I followed him
                  up there and got the finish of my initiations."
                  [page 71]


                  Timeline of Facts:

                  1923 - PT claims that he and his sister met
                  Sudar in Paris and traveled with him to India.
                  This was PT's 1st trip to India at age 15 and
                  received his 1st and 2nd initiations from Sudar
                  Singh.

                  1935 - Harold Klemp (on Eckankar.org) states
                  that Twitchell, at age 27, was "exaggerating"
                  and "twisting facts" to get into "Who's Who in
                  Kentucky," and that Twitchell had never traveled
                  all that far from home.

                  1947 - PT claims he had his 2nd trip to India
                  (at age 35) and received his 3rd-7th initiations
                  from Rebazar while staying with him for six
                  to seven months.

                  1951 - PT claims he went back to India (his
                  3rd trip at age 39) and received the "finish"
                  of his initiations from Rebazar Tarzs.

                  Did Twitchell "finish" with a 9th or a 12th
                  initiation in 1951?

                  Fact: In any case, the 14th Mahanta was never
                  mentioned by Twitchell until January 1969.

                  Fact: Harold Klemp states on eckankar.org
                  that at age 27 (1935) that Twitchell was
                  "exaggerating" and "twisting facts" to get
                  into Who's Who in Kentucky and that PT
                  had never traveled all that far from home
                  as he was claiming.

                  Factual Conclusion:

                  Twitchell lied about going to India to
                  meet Sudar Singh at age 15, plus, he
                  lied about this in 1971 as the "Mahanta"
                  just months before his untimely death.

                  And, PT continued the lie with the story
                  of meeting Rebazar in 1947. He connected
                  that lie to the one about getting his 1st
                  and 2nd initiations from Sudar, in India,
                  at the age of 15.

                  Thus, the story about meeting Rebazar,
                  again, on a third visit, circa 1951, to
                  "finish" his initiations is also a fabrication
                  of truth! Paul couldn't help himself. PT
                  was a habitual liar and a narcissist, and
                  for Klemp to point that out just shows
                  that HK was not only ignorant of the
                  timeline, but isn't all that capable/aware
                  of connecting the dots.

                  Plus, after Twitchell, supposedly,
                  received the "finish" of his initiations,
                  in 1951, it took until 1969 [18 years!]
                  for Twitchell to mention the "Mahanta"
                  for the first time in an ECK publication.
                  This is more proof that Twitchell created
                  the Mahanta just as he created Rebazar
                  and the other ECK Masters... it's all
                  a big fat lie! Even the Sant Mat crap
                  that Twitchell copied and tweaked
                  is a false teaching.

                  These facts are the main reason this
                  book, "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                  Living ECK Master" will never ever be
                  reprinted.... without heavy handed
                  reediting.

                  Prometheus


                  etznab@... wrote:
                  >
                  > What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug
                  > Marman's use of the word "facts".
                  >
                  > In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my questions
                  > about Rebazar Tarzs on a.r.e. - it seemed to me that in some respects
                  > "facts" were somehow "secondary" to spiritual experience.
                  >
                  > I thoiught about the a.r.e. thread last night trying to fathom what
                  > Doug was saying about Paul's stories and things said (some of them) not
                  > based on facts. And frankly, it still didn't jive with me. Off hand I
                  > can remember at least two places where Paul Twitchell illustrated that
                  > Rebazar Tarzs "told him" what to write. In one place (I believe)
                  > Rebazar Tarzs comes to Paul's room, wakes him up, tells him to take up
                  > the pencil and write. (I'm referring to Dialogues With The Master and
                  > The Far Country.) So how can Doug suggest those were Paul's words based
                  > on a spiritual experience?
                  > Paul wrote (in so many words) that Rebazar Tarzs came and materialized
                  > in his room, and in one instance (I believe) the mattress sank from the
                  > weight of R.T. sitting on it.
                  >
                  > It would be nice if everybody didn't go away, all those Eckists on the
                  > newsgroups, and if the string of dialogues could continue today. I say
                  > this because there is a lot more information and examples available to
                  > share where many of "Paul's words" read as plagiarized from various
                  > books by other authors - none of them by the name of Rebazar Tarzs, or
                  > other Eck masters.
                  >
                  > ***
                  >
                  > "They" didn't succeed at booting me from a.r.e., and I didn't "move on"
                  > as once suggested. To the contrary I continued to research the FACTS -
                  > whether anybody likeed it or not - and have reams of examples (which
                  > can be illustrated and verified by REAL evidence and FACTS) about many
                  > of the things people were chewing on and debating over for years before
                  > I arrived. Some of the examples I (and others) have since found are
                  > those that not even David Lane was aware of (I'm talking about examples
                  > of Paul's writings compared with other authors) and I think probably
                  > that Doug Marman was unaware of.
                  >
                  > So new information has come in since the D.L. / D.M. debates, etc. New
                  > FACTS are now known. How facts can be important in one instance and
                  > something else in another ... I am not sure what Doug was talking
                  > about.
                  >
                  > I recall from the newspapers that sometimes when something happens that
                  > embarrasses the government and people want to know who is responsible -
                  > such as torture of prisoners, etc. - those higher up in the ladder
                  > have responded with things like: The first time I heard about it was
                  > from the news / newspaper. Iow, people claim ignorance and that they
                  > didn't know about something until it became public via the news. Well,
                  > to admit otherwise - and that they did know about it (and for a long
                  > time) - would be damning to them and public opinion would have them on
                  > a spike!
                  >
                  > Now I recall that (for some reason) Harold Klemp doesn't use the
                  > Internet. I'm sure he reads the newspapers and watches the news, but
                  > how much about the trove of FACTS regarding Paul's writings compared
                  > with other authors - INCLUDING REBAZAR TARZS - is in the newspapers, or
                  > on the evening news? (Maybe it should be?) Much of the new information
                  > and research has been put on the Internet. That's where it is (also in
                  > some books). And even there, we've probably all seen how apologists can
                  > argue against certain information being true, try to marginalize people
                  > and their research, even to the extent of suggesting (in so many words)
                  > that facts don't matter. Or, it's not about facts.
                  >
                  > Well, I've seen where it looks like people want to have it both ways.
                  > Facts matter. Facts don't matter. As far as research goes, and besides
                  > the stories of "spiritual experiences" that people send in, When was
                  > the last time the Eckankar website posted something about people doing
                  > real research into the stories told by Paul Twitchell? (Not to mention
                  > "research" about the stories sent in by Eckists today?) It was 1984
                  > when Harold came out with all that stuff about Paul Twitchell and when
                  > Harold did research. I wonder if they continue to research, or if (for
                  > some reason) it stopped a long time ago?
                  >
                  > Oh yeah, I remember it now.
                  >
                  > "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
                  > researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
                  > turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to say
                  > that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I [Doug
                  > Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the records.
                  > Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past, which
                  > Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough study.
                  > Â Â
                  > "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
                  > about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
                  > further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and worked
                  > for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early days.
                  > So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [....] A few
                  > months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
                  > began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
                  > share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
                  > anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
                  > unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
                  > see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [....]"
                  >
                  > [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
                  >
                  > "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                  > Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                  > 1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                  > Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                  > Singh, who is not the same person at all.
                  > "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                  > whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                  > all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                  > more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                  > initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                  > "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                  > just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                  > report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                  > Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."
                  >
                  > [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                  > Harold Klemp - see link]
                  >
                  > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training
                  >
                  > They got reports? Hmm ... then maybe I should send in a report? :)
                  >
                  > I could give other examples where it looks like Eckankar is interested
                  > in stories from other people, including what people found by research.
                  > Apparently though, the LEM. isn't going to simply look at the Eck-Vidya
                  > and share answers to all of the questions people have. At the same time
                  > though, it looks like people pick and choose from all the information
                  > only what "THEY WANT" the facts to be and put the rest under the rug.
                  >
                  > If one disregards the reported facts written by Paul Twitchell
                  > concerning his meetings, encounters, and relationships with Eck Masters
                  > then where does it leave you? In Never Never Land with Peter Pan and
                  > Tinker Bell, etc.? (Hey look! He's playing a flute!)
                  >
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverland
                  >
                  > Are "spiritual experiences", the "stories" (and the stories that people
                  > send in) somehow more REAL than factual accounts which can be
                  > researched and verified? Or, Are "spiritual experiences" sometimes used
                  > as a label for anything a person wants to be true? Iow, does the land
                  > of make believe trump the actual facts? This is what it comes down to,
                  > IMO.
                • Janice Pfeiffer
                  Thank you etznab for clarifying.  ... From: etznab18 Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited) To:
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 9, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thank you etznab for clarifying. 

                    --- On Sun, 5/6/12, etznab18 <etznab@...> wrote:

                    From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Sunday, May 6, 2012, 2:50 AM

                     
                    "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                    Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

                    To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

                    (1)

                    Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                    [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

                    The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                    So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                    It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

                    http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                    (2)

                    July 2001:

                    "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

                    Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                    http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                    (3)

                    July 2003:

                    Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                    What are your on that stuff ?
                    I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                    As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
                    It's all a matter of perspective.
                    I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
                    On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                    http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                    (4) February 2004:

                    "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                    http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                    (5)

                    March 2007:

                    [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
                    Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                    I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                    So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
                    I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                    These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                    In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                    http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Prometheus,
                    >  
                    > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
                    >  
                    > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
                    >  
                    > Thanks
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello Janice and All,
                    > Interesting. I think I'll
                    > share some comments
                    > to your insights below.
                    >
                    > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                    > "Prometheus,
                    >
                    > Now that is very interesting.
                    >
                    > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                    >
                    > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                    >
                    > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                    >
                    > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                    >
                    > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                    > many of us have had similar
                    > experiences of being attacked
                    > by negative entities and having
                    > to defend ourselves. In this case
                    > your RESA was, also, one of these
                    > negative beings. Too bad you
                    > couldn't protect yourself from
                    > them, but it's deceptive when
                    > one has placed trust in a RESA
                    > by assuming they are always
                    > positive and always on your side.
                    > They are as closed minded and
                    > defensive as is any religionist
                    > when protecting their dogma
                    > from too much scrutiny.
                    >
                    > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
                    >
                    > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                    > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                    > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                    > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                    > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                    > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                    > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                    > meditation/contemplation one will change
                    > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                    > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                    > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                    > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                    > when attention is placed upon these
                    > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                    > and every other conman knew and uses
                    > and what Klemp continues to use as
                    > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                    > the magician uses while the viewer's
                    > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                    >
                    >
                    > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
                    >
                    > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                    > are real. It could very well be that demons
                    > are metaphors for those things that bother
                    > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                    > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                    > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                    > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                    > have problems since they tend to pick and
                    > choose what is easy for them to believe
                    > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                    > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                    > narrow, terms.
                    >
                    >
                    > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                    > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
                    >
                    > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                    > He had the by-laws changed
                    > after he took over from D.G.
                    > and neither the President nor
                    > the EK Board has any voting
                    > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                    > and fire. The local Satsang
                    > Societies and local Boards have
                    > been set up the same (As Above).
                    > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                    > fire the local Presidents and
                    > Board members and the votes
                    > of Board members carry no
                    > authority! The RESA has the
                    > sole authority, unless, a higher
                    > authority at the ESC steps in.
                    > However, when this is done
                    > it is always with the approval
                    > of Klemp and under his direction.
                    >
                    >
                    > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
                    >
                    > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                    > ECK Master" was the best book written
                    > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                    > There were three interviews done around
                    > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                    > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                    > is that after all of these years he's still
                    > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                    > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                    > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                    > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                    > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                    > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                    > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                    > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                    > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                    > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                    > comments about how he confused things
                    > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                    > could take it easy during the start of
                    > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                    > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                    > accomplish!
                    >
                    > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                    >
                    > ME: I think that we all have to get
                    > over the guilt and shame of being
                    > tricked. Look at all of those who
                    > belong to a religion and donate
                    > time and money in order to get
                    > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                    > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                    > too! People need to believe in
                    > something that can give them
                    > hope and to help them to maintain
                    > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                    > know what people want and need.
                    > Attitude is, also, important but
                    > there's a fine line between being
                    > positive and being delusional.
                    > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                    > where to draw the line and some
                    > of us have more difficulty with
                    > seeing the good versus seeing
                    > the bad. However, I don't think
                    > that seeing the glass half-empty
                    > is always wrong, but it does present
                    > more of a challenge to overcome.
                    >
                    > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                    > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                    >
                    > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                    > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                    > and do a strip tease at an airport
                    > and choose jail or a mental institution
                    > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                    > was a liar up to the moment of his
                    > untimely death and, thus, was not
                    > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                    > him. Besides, many people have
                    > done stupid things when confused
                    > with life and have sought "spiritual
                    > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                    > claim that their mental missteps
                    > and episodes were "spiritual
                    > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                    > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                    > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                    > excuse his mental confusion.
                    > After all, HK's the leader of a
                    > church and has to be above
                    > and beyond reproach. It's a
                    > pretend game where he has
                    > to, partially, buy into the hype
                    > in order to seem authentic.
                    >
                    > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
                    >
                    > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                    > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                    > as long as they don't know who I am.
                    > That could/would change I'm sure.
                    > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                    > and I could understand that, however,
                    > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                    > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                    > not due to Eckankar or because of
                    > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                    > That crap just gets in the way and
                    > causes more codependency. Any
                    > growth or realization leading to
                    > an expanded awareness is learned
                    > and earned by the individual. It's
                    > their own personal and private
                    > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                    > whatever one wants to call this
                    > divine essence, or not, that leads
                    > to a divine knowingness and to
                    > contentment!
                    >
                    > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
                    >
                    > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                    > while knowing about the deceptions
                    > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                    > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                    > why throw the baby out with the
                    > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                    > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                    > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                    > works why complain? H.I.s have
                    > put blinders on in order to stay
                    > the course and maintain their
                    > prestigious positions which took
                    > them decades of time and money
                    > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                    > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                    > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                    > that did the same... picked and
                    > chose what they wanted to follow
                    > and believe. However, that's not
                    > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                    > work. One is supposed to take
                    > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                    > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                    > only the best from all of the other
                    > religions and experts, etc. in order
                    > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                    > dogma to the modern Western
                    > world. Thus, how can one pick
                    > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                    > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                    > following the guidance and the will
                    > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                    > they are heretics!
                    >
                    > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                    >
                    > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                    > Humans are social animals
                    > and most like to follow in
                    > one way or another because
                    > it's easier to follow than to
                    > lead. Being a follower requires
                    > less thought and energy. It's
                    > less demanding, less consuming,
                    > and is less stressful. It is true
                    > that the Higher one is with
                    > initiations, years, and titles
                    > the more lost that individual
                    > is. They've bought into it
                    > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                    > Klemp! However, the ones
                    > to really feel sorry for are those
                    > ESC staffers who know it's all
                    > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                    > but they have to put on an act
                    > in order to keep their jobs,
                    > health care, retirement, etc.
                    >
                    >
                    > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                    >
                    > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                    > friend of Klemp's who's an
                    > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                    > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                    > out there that have overlooked
                    > many facts and are based upon
                    > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                    > however, is that Doug's stated
                    > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                    > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                    > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                    > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                    > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                    > After all, PT needed to have
                    > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                    > his real master, initiate him.
                    > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                    > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                    > has admitted that Twitchell
                    > created the Mahanta title in
                    > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                    > omits all of this information
                    > in his books!
                    >
                    > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
                    >
                    > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                    >
                    > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
                    >
                    > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                    > It was interesting for me to
                    > comment.
                    >
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > This is an entertaining approach.
                    >
                    > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >

                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello All, What I found interesting is that Klemp mentions Kirpal s name 15 times and Sudar s name 4 times. Just check the Twitchell info on Eckankar.org and
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 9, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello All,
                      What I found interesting
                      is that Klemp mentions
                      Kirpal's name 15 times
                      and Sudar's name 4 times.

                      Just check the Twitchell
                      info on Eckankar.org and
                      count it up for yourselves.
                      HK mentions that Twit had
                      a falling out with Kirpal
                      (for some unknown reason)
                      and that Kirpal had possession
                      of Paul's "The Tiger's Fang"
                      manuscript which he, later,
                      returned circa June, 1966.

                      The "falling out" was because
                      Paul had "exaggerated" and
                      "twisted facts" as Klemp states
                      Twit had done at age 27 (1935)
                      to get into Who's Who in Kentucky.

                      Even though the Tiger's Fang
                      story made Kirpal (aka Rebazar,
                      et al.) appear to be a great master,
                      it also made Paul look like a
                      Master as well. PT was using
                      Kirpal to self-promote himself
                      and Kirpal was aware of Paul's
                      scam to place himself on a
                      plane of consciousness near
                      Kirpal's!

                      Think about this. Would Klemp
                      allow similar stories to be published
                      in EK Newsletters that would
                      place low level EKists on these
                      Higher Planes? Never! Klemp
                      would see it as a challenge to
                      his authority just as Kirpal did.

                      It's obvious that Kirpal Singh
                      was Paul's true master and
                      not Sudar Singh.

                      What's this mean?

                      Well, it means that Paul
                      lied and there are EK books
                      that perpetuate this same
                      lie.

                      It also means that Sudar
                      never existed. Thus, Paul
                      was never initiated by Sudar
                      into ECKankar. If anything,
                      Paul was initiated into Radhasoami
                      by Kirpal Singh (btw- Radhasoami
                      is a sect of Ruhani Satsang).

                      And, this means that Eckankar
                      is, actually, a sect of the sect
                      of Radhasoami. Look at the
                      dogma! Eckankar's is practically
                      identical to Radhasoami and
                      to Ruhani Satsang. Sects, basically,
                      follow the same dogma of the
                      original teaching but tend
                      to do some tweaking due to
                      a falling out regarding leadership.

                      Regardless of tapes that Twit
                      made, after-the-fact and about
                      fake masters like Rebazar, we
                      still have the June, 1971 interviews
                      that Twit did for "Difficulties
                      Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."

                      What Paul lied about in June 1971
                      as the "Full" Mahanta (created in 1969)
                      is more important than what he said
                      earlier.

                      Plus, we have the Timelines which
                      show more of PT's lies.

                      And, we have Klemp, on Eckankar.org,
                      stating that Kirpal Singh had possession
                      of PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript.
                      This was a manuscript... not a book!

                      Plus, we have Klemp stating that
                      Twitchell was a liar who "exaggerated"
                      and "twisted facts" along with several
                      on-going comments about Paul being
                      a (somewhat shameless) self-promoter.

                      The sum of these facts make it
                      almost impossible for any objective
                      person Not to be able to see the
                      truth and connect-the-dots and
                      know, without a reasonable doubt,
                      that Twitchell was a fake master,
                      plagiarist, and a conman.

                      Prometheus


                      Janice wrote:

                      Thank you etznab for clarifying.

                      Etznab wrote:

                      "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                      Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

                      To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

                      (1)

                      Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                      [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

                      The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                      So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                      It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

                      http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                      (2)

                      July 2001:

                      "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

                      Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                      http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                      (3)

                      July 2003:

                      Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                      What are your on that stuff ?
                      I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                      As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
                      It's all a matter of perspective.
                      I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
                      On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                      http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                      (4) February 2004:

                      "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                      http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                      (5)

                      March 2007:

                      [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
                      Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                      I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                      So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
                      I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                      These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                      In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                      http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Prometheus,
                      > Â
                      > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank you for being such a wise soul.
                      > Â
                      > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? The circus of eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization. It appears like a house of cards. Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event. Any ideas?
                      > Â
                      > Thanks
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Â
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello Janice and All,
                      > Interesting. I think I'll
                      > share some comments
                      > to your insights below.
                      >
                      > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      > "Prometheus,
                      >
                      > Now that is very interesting.
                      >
                      > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                      >
                      > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                      >
                      > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                      >
                      > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                      >
                      > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                      > many of us have had similar
                      > experiences of being attacked
                      > by negative entities and having
                      > to defend ourselves. In this case
                      > your RESA was, also, one of these
                      > negative beings. Too bad you
                      > couldn't protect yourself from
                      > them, but it's deceptive when
                      > one has placed trust in a RESA
                      > by assuming they are always
                      > positive and always on your side.
                      > They are as closed minded and
                      > defensive as is any religionist
                      > when protecting their dogma
                      > from too much scrutiny.
                      >
                      > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
                      >
                      > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                      > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                      > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                      > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                      > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                      > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                      > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                      > meditation/contemplation one will change
                      > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                      > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                      > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                      > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                      > when attention is placed upon these
                      > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                      > and every other conman knew and uses
                      > and what Klemp continues to use as
                      > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                      > the magician uses while the viewer's
                      > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                      >
                      >
                      > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
                      >
                      > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                      > are real. It could very well be that demons
                      > are metaphors for those things that bother
                      > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                      > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                      > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                      > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                      > have problems since they tend to pick and
                      > choose what is easy for them to believe
                      > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                      > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                      > narrow, terms.
                      >
                      >
                      > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                      > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
                      >
                      > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                      > He had the by-laws changed
                      > after he took over from D.G.
                      > and neither the President nor
                      > the EK Board has any voting
                      > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                      > and fire. The local Satsang
                      > Societies and local Boards have
                      > been set up the same (As Above).
                      > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                      > fire the local Presidents and
                      > Board members and the votes
                      > of Board members carry no
                      > authority! The RESA has the
                      > sole authority, unless, a higher
                      > authority at the ESC steps in.
                      > However, when this is done
                      > it is always with the approval
                      > of Klemp and under his direction.
                      >
                      >
                      > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
                      >
                      > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                      > ECK Master" was the best book written
                      > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                      > There were three interviews done around
                      > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                      > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                      > is that after all of these years he's still
                      > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                      > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                      > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                      > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                      > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                      > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                      > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                      > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                      > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                      > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                      > comments about how he confused things
                      > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                      > could take it easy during the start of
                      > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                      > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                      > accomplish!
                      >
                      > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                      >
                      > ME: I think that we all have to get
                      > over the guilt and shame of being
                      > tricked. Look at all of those who
                      > belong to a religion and donate
                      > time and money in order to get
                      > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                      > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                      > too! People need to believe in
                      > something that can give them
                      > hope and to help them to maintain
                      > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                      > know what people want and need.
                      > Attitude is, also, important but
                      > there's a fine line between being
                      > positive and being delusional.
                      > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                      > where to draw the line and some
                      > of us have more difficulty with
                      > seeing the good versus seeing
                      > the bad. However, I don't think
                      > that seeing the glass half-empty
                      > is always wrong, but it does present
                      > more of a challenge to overcome.
                      >
                      > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                      > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                      >
                      > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                      > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                      > and do a strip tease at an airport
                      > and choose jail or a mental institution
                      > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                      > was a liar up to the moment of his
                      > untimely death and, thus, was not
                      > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                      > him. Besides, many people have
                      > done stupid things when confused
                      > with life and have sought "spiritual
                      > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                      > claim that their mental missteps
                      > and episodes were "spiritual
                      > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                      > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                      > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                      > excuse his mental confusion.
                      > After all, HK's the leader of a
                      > church and has to be above
                      > and beyond reproach. It's a
                      > pretend game where he has
                      > to, partially, buy into the hype
                      > in order to seem authentic.
                      >
                      > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
                      >
                      > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                      > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                      > as long as they don't know who I am.
                      > That could/would change I'm sure.
                      > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                      > and I could understand that, however,
                      > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                      > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                      > not due to Eckankar or because of
                      > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                      > That crap just gets in the way and
                      > causes more codependency. Any
                      > growth or realization leading to
                      > an expanded awareness is learned
                      > and earned by the individual. It's
                      > their own personal and private
                      > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                      > whatever one wants to call this
                      > divine essence, or not, that leads
                      > to a divine knowingness and to
                      > contentment!
                      >
                      > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
                      >
                      > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                      > while knowing about the deceptions
                      > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                      > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                      > why throw the baby out with the
                      > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                      > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                      > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                      > works why complain? H.I.s have
                      > put blinders on in order to stay
                      > the course and maintain their
                      > prestigious positions which took
                      > them decades of time and money
                      > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                      > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                      > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                      > that did the same... picked and
                      > chose what they wanted to follow
                      > and believe. However, that's not
                      > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                      > work. One is supposed to take
                      > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                      > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                      > only the best from all of the other
                      > religions and experts, etc. in order
                      > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                      > dogma to the modern Western
                      > world. Thus, how can one pick
                      > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                      > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                      > following the guidance and the will
                      > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                      > they are heretics!
                      >
                      > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                      >
                      > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                      > Humans are social animals
                      > and most like to follow in
                      > one way or another because
                      > it's easier to follow than to
                      > lead. Being a follower requires
                      > less thought and energy. It's
                      > less demanding, less consuming,
                      > and is less stressful. It is true
                      > that the Higher one is with
                      > initiations, years, and titles
                      > the more lost that individual
                      > is. They've bought into it
                      > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                      > Klemp! However, the ones
                      > to really feel sorry for are those
                      > ESC staffers who know it's all
                      > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                      > but they have to put on an act
                      > in order to keep their jobs,
                      > health care, retirement, etc.
                      >
                      >
                      > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                      >
                      > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                      > friend of Klemp's who's an
                      > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                      > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                      > out there that have overlooked
                      > many facts and are based upon
                      > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                      > however, is that Doug's stated
                      > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                      > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                      > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                      > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                      > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                      > After all, PT needed to have
                      > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                      > his real master, initiate him.
                      > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                      > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                      > has admitted that Twitchell
                      > created the Mahanta title in
                      > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                      > omits all of this information
                      > in his books!
                      >
                      > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
                      >
                      > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                      >
                      > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
                      >
                      > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                      > It was interesting for me to
                      > comment.
                      >
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > This is an entertaining approach.
                      >
                      > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      Nice post there. Lots of good points. Thanks. ... From: prometheus_973 To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 10, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Nice post there. Lots of good points. Thanks.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wed, May 9, 2012 12:48 pm
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                        (Revisited)

                         
                        Hello All,
                        What I found interesting
                        is that Klemp mentions
                        Kirpal's name 15 times
                        and Sudar's name 4 times.

                        Just check the Twitchell
                        info on Eckankar.org and
                        count it up for yourselves.
                        HK mentions that Twit had
                        a falling out with Kirpal
                        (for some unknown reason)
                        and that Kirpal had possession
                        of Paul's "The Tiger's Fang"
                        manuscript which he, later,
                        returned circa June, 1966.

                        The "falling out" was because
                        Paul had "exaggerated" and
                        "twisted facts" as Klemp states
                        Twit had done at age 27 (1935)
                        to get into Who's Who in Kentucky.

                        Even though the Tiger's Fang
                        story made Kirpal (aka Rebazar,
                        et al.) appear to be a great master,
                        it also made Paul look like a
                        Master as well. PT was using
                        Kirpal to self-promote himself
                        and Kirpal was aware of Paul's
                        scam to place himself on a
                        plane of consciousness near
                        Kirpal's!

                        Think about this. Would Klemp
                        allow similar stories to be published
                        in EK Newsletters that would
                        place low level EKists on these
                        Higher Planes? Never! Klemp
                        would see it as a challenge to
                        his authority just as Kirpal did.

                        It's obvious that Kirpal Singh
                        was Paul's true master and
                        not Sudar Singh.

                        What's this mean?

                        Well, it means that Paul
                        lied and there are EK books
                        that perpetuate this same
                        lie.

                        It also means that Sudar
                        never existed. Thus, Paul
                        was never initiated by Sudar
                        into ECKankar. If anything,
                        Paul was initiated into Radhasoami
                        by Kirpal Singh (btw- Radhasoami
                        is a sect of Ruhani Satsang).

                        And, this means that Eckankar
                        is, actually, a sect of the sect
                        of Radhasoami. Look at the
                        dogma! Eckankar's is practically
                        identical to Radhasoami and
                        to Ruhani Satsang. Sects, basically,
                        follow the same dogma of the
                        original teaching but tend
                        to do some tweaking due to
                        a falling out regarding leadership.

                        Regardless of tapes that Twit
                        made, after-the-fact and about
                        fake masters like Rebazar, we
                        still have the June, 1971 interviews
                        that Twit did for "Difficulties
                        Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."

                        What Paul lied about in June 1971
                        as the "Full" Mahanta (created in 1969)
                        is more important than what he said
                        earlier.

                        Plus, we have the Timelines which
                        show more of PT's lies.

                        And, we have Klemp, on Eckankar.org,
                        stating that Kirpal Singh had possession
                        of PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript.
                        This was a manuscript... not a book!

                        Plus, we have Klemp stating that
                        Twitchell was a liar who "exaggerated"
                        and "twisted facts" along with several
                        on-going comments about Paul being
                        a (somewhat shameless) self-promoter.

                        The sum of these facts make it
                        almost impossible for any objective
                        person Not to be able to see the
                        truth and connect-the-dots and
                        know, without a reasonable doubt,
                        that Twitchell was a fake master,
                        plagiarist, and a conman.

                        Prometheus

                        Janice wrote:

                        Thank you etznab for clarifying.

                        Etznab wrote:

                        "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                        admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                        Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for
                        complete context.)

                        To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is
                        still a long post though.

                        (1)

                        Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                        [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
                        self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day
                        I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in
                        the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his
                        home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was
                        trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The
                        Master.

                        The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs.
                        Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying
                        something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the
                        voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from
                        Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember
                        much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could
                        hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                        So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard
                        anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me
                        that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told
                        Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I
                        was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I
                        immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                        It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a
                        deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire
                        to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused,
                        as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is
                        never any reason to rush." [... .]

                        http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                        (2)

                        July 2001:

                        "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT
                        my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David
                        Lane?]

                        Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't
                        David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought
                        that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's
                        Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but
                        was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967.
                        [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                        http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                        (3)

                        July 2003:

                        Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos
                        most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or
                        insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to
                        have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and
                        perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                        What are your on that stuff ?
                        I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the
                        fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual
                        dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different
                        picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from
                        other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                        As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look
                        back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with
                        Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to
                        leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I
                        took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the
                        new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are
                        almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I
                        was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a
                        spin-off.
                        It's all a matter of perspective.
                        I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously
                        liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even
                        used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country.
                        However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal
                        Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected
                        his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far
                        Country far differently.
                        On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he
                        wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's
                        books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a
                        serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure
                        Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                        http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                        (4) February 2004:

                        "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I
                        guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use
                        other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck
                        Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                        (5)

                        March 2007:

                        [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's
                        book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual
                        account?
                        Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is
                        he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                        I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By
                        The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works,
                        but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                        So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar
                        work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow
                        you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it
                        becomes a trust issue for them.
                        I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was
                        much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing
                        spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                        These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So,
                        I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he
                        was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                        In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book,
                        to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it
                        was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was
                        he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing
                        spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works
                        in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                        http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                        <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Prometheus,
                        > Â
                        > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It
                        gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank
                        you for being such a wise soul.
                        > Â
                        > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                        admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and
                        why? The circus of eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear
                        from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand
                        as an organization. It appears like a house of cards. Do you
                        think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you
                        think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their
                        membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.Â
                        Any ideas?
                        > Â
                        > Thanks
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of
                        ECKankar (Revisited)
                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Â
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello Janice and All,
                        > Interesting. I think I'll
                        > share some comments
                        > to your insights below.
                        >
                        > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        > "Prometheus,
                        >
                        > Now that is very interesting.
                        >
                        > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or
                        so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't
                        falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of
                        energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one
                        night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember
                        later. I know it started with a P.
                        >
                        > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind
                        and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but
                        I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp.
                        It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an
                        ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood
                        gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my
                        dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                        >
                        > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar
                        as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the
                        dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my
                        favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found
                        it very confusing to have these dreams.
                        >
                        > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long
                        term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions
                        that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck
                        teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was
                        true beauty in the teachings."
                        >
                        > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                        > many of us have had similar
                        > experiences of being attacked
                        > by negative entities and having
                        > to defend ourselves. In this case
                        > your RESA was, also, one of these
                        > negative beings. Too bad you
                        > couldn't protect yourself from
                        > them, but it's deceptive when
                        > one has placed trust in a RESA
                        > by assuming they are always
                        > positive and always on your side.
                        > They are as closed minded and
                        > defensive as is any religionist
                        > when protecting their dogma
                        > from too much scrutiny.
                        >
                        > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how
                        it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading
                        all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another
                        year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack
                        seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of
                        eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive
                        thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I
                        wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to
                        them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many
                        occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be
                        respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories
                        about the personal lives of other eckist."
                        >
                        > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                        > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                        > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                        > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                        > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                        > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                        > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                        > meditation/contemplation one will change
                        > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                        > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                        > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                        > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                        > when attention is placed upon these
                        > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                        > and every other conman knew and uses
                        > and what Klemp continues to use as
                        > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                        > the magician uses while the viewer's
                        > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                        >
                        >
                        > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind
                        eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with
                        demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have
                        always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or
                        demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say,
                        I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't
                        have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious
                        hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature
                        of eckankar."
                        >
                        > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                        > are real. It could very well be that demons
                        > are metaphors for those things that bother
                        > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                        > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                        > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                        > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                        > have problems since they tend to pick and
                        > choose what is easy for them to believe
                        > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                        > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                        > narrow, terms.
                        >
                        >
                        > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master
                        and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet
                        for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                        > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my
                        biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the
                        mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly
                        looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't
                        charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability
                        that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources
                        outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to
                        me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck
                        master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds
                        making up corporate eckankar."
                        >
                        > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                        > He had the by-laws changed
                        > after he took over from D.G.
                        > and neither the President nor
                        > the EK Board has any voting
                        > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                        > and fire. The local Satsang
                        > Societies and local Boards have
                        > been set up the same (As Above).
                        > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                        > fire the local Presidents and
                        > Board members and the votes
                        > of Board members carry no
                        > authority! The RESA has the
                        > sole authority, unless, a higher
                        > authority at the ESC steps in.
                        > However, when this is done
                        > it is always with the approval
                        > of Klemp and under his direction.
                        >
                        >
                        > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by
                        twitchell and others that the average person would think is not
                        spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great
                        power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been
                        removed from print."
                        >
                        > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                        > ECK Master" was the best book written
                        > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                        > There were three interviews done around
                        > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                        > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                        > is that after all of these years he's still
                        > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                        > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                        > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                        > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                        > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                        > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                        > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                        > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                        > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                        > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                        > comments about how he confused things
                        > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                        > could take it easy during the start of
                        > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                        > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                        > accomplish!
                        >
                        > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it
                        so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little
                        bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more
                        knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about
                        demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking
                        the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in
                        recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am
                        thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did
                        not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway.
                        Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am
                        ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think
                        most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                        >
                        > ME: I think that we all have to get
                        > over the guilt and shame of being
                        > tricked. Look at all of those who
                        > belong to a religion and donate
                        > time and money in order to get
                        > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                        > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                        > too! People need to believe in
                        > something that can give them
                        > hope and to help them to maintain
                        > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                        > know what people want and need.
                        > Attitude is, also, important but
                        > there's a fine line between being
                        > positive and being delusional.
                        > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                        > where to draw the line and some
                        > of us have more difficulty with
                        > seeing the good versus seeing
                        > the bad. However, I don't think
                        > that seeing the glass half-empty
                        > is always wrong, but it does present
                        > more of a challenge to overcome.
                        >
                        > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't
                        healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems.
                        Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot.
                        Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe
                        mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't
                        this great living eck master help them over come these things or at
                        least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck
                        master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is
                        necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp
                        describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with
                        a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in
                        public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed
                        the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was
                        woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                        > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in
                        twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                        >
                        > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                        > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                        > and do a strip tease at an airport
                        > and choose jail or a mental institution
                        > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                        > was a liar up to the moment of his
                        > untimely death and, thus, was not
                        > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                        > him. Besides, many people have
                        > done stupid things when confused
                        > with life and have sought "spiritual
                        > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                        > claim that their mental missteps
                        > and episodes were "spiritual
                        > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                        > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                        > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                        > excuse his mental confusion.
                        > After all, HK's the leader of a
                        > church and has to be above
                        > and beyond reproach. It's a
                        > pretend game where he has
                        > to, partially, buy into the hype
                        > in order to seem authentic.
                        >
                        > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and
                        who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well
                        adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this
                        article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is
                        possible to grow in eckankar."
                        >
                        > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                        > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                        > as long as they don't know who I am.
                        > That could/would change I'm sure.
                        > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                        > and I could understand that, however,
                        > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                        > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                        > not due to Eckankar or because of
                        > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                        > That crap just gets in the way and
                        > causes more codependency. Any
                        > growth or realization leading to
                        > an expanded awareness is learned
                        > and earned by the individual. It's
                        > their own personal and private
                        > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                        > whatever one wants to call this
                        > divine essence, or not, that leads
                        > to a divine knowingness and to
                        > contentment!
                        >
                        > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings
                        came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several
                        high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply
                        accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that
                        the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed
                        relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can
                        use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings
                        being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which
                        ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth
                        wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as
                        needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this
                        concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be
                        knowingly condoned."
                        >
                        > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                        > while knowing about the deceptions
                        > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                        > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                        > why throw the baby out with the
                        > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                        > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                        > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                        > works why complain? H.I.s have
                        > put blinders on in order to stay
                        > the course and maintain their
                        > prestigious positions which took
                        > them decades of time and money
                        > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                        > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                        > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                        > that did the same... picked and
                        > chose what they wanted to follow
                        > and believe. However, that's not
                        > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                        > work. One is supposed to take
                        > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                        > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                        > only the best from all of the other
                        > religions and experts, etc. in order
                        > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                        > dogma to the modern Western
                        > world. Thus, how can one pick
                        > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                        > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                        > following the guidance and the will
                        > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                        > they are heretics!
                        >
                        > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other
                        than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as
                        greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still
                        wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that
                        eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel
                        for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just
                        remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                        >
                        > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                        > Humans are social animals
                        > and most like to follow in
                        > one way or another because
                        > it's easier to follow than to
                        > lead. Being a follower requires
                        > less thought and energy. It's
                        > less demanding, less consuming,
                        > and is less stressful. It is true
                        > that the Higher one is with
                        > initiations, years, and titles
                        > the more lost that individual
                        > is. They've bought into it
                        > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                        > Klemp! However, the ones
                        > to really feel sorry for are those
                        > ESC staffers who know it's all
                        > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                        > but they have to put on an act
                        > in order to keep their jobs,
                        > health care, retirement, etc.
                        >
                        >
                        > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar
                        with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be
                        appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are
                        these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an
                        eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                        >
                        > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                        > friend of Klemp's who's an
                        > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                        > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                        > out there that have overlooked
                        > many facts and are based upon
                        > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                        > however, is that Doug's stated
                        > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                        > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                        > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                        > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                        > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                        > After all, PT needed to have
                        > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                        > his real master, initiate him.
                        > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                        > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                        > has admitted that Twitchell
                        > created the Mahanta title in
                        > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                        > omits all of this information
                        > in his books!
                        >
                        > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a
                        private person, I felt a need to write it.
                        >
                        > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                        >
                        > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful
                        spiritual experiences."
                        >
                        > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                        > It was interesting for me to
                        > comment.
                        >
                        >
                        > prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > This is an entertaining approach.
                        >
                        >
                        http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.