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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)

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  • Janice Pfeiffer
    Prometheus,   You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for
    Message 1 of 14 , May 3, 2012
      Prometheus,
       
      You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
       
      Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
       
      Thanks



      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM

       
      Hello Janice and All,
      Interesting. I think I'll
      share some comments
      to your insights below.

      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      "Prometheus,

      Now that is very interesting.

      I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.

      Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.

      Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.

      I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."

      ME (Prometheus): I know that
      many of us have had similar
      experiences of being attacked
      by negative entities and having
      to defend ourselves. In this case
      your RESA was, also, one of these
      negative beings. Too bad you
      couldn't protect yourself from
      them, but it's deceptive when
      one has placed trust in a RESA
      by assuming they are always
      positive and always on your side.
      They are as closed minded and
      defensive as is any religionist
      when protecting their dogma
      from too much scrutiny.

      "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."

      ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
      Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
      ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
      until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
      the catch is that there's a time limit for
      being skeptical. True, when one seeks
      the "Truth" via introspection and uses
      meditation/contemplation one will change
      and see with new eyes, but that's not due
      to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
      tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
      dream and imagine all sorts of things
      when attention is placed upon these
      areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
      and every other conman knew and uses
      and what Klemp continues to use as
      a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
      the magician uses while the viewer's
      attention is distracted elsewhere.


      "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."

      ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
      are real. It could very well be that demons
      are metaphors for those things that bother
      and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
      and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
      all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
      This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
      have problems since they tend to pick and
      choose what is easy for them to believe
      since they tend to be more simple-minded
      and tend to see most everything in literal,
      narrow, terms.


      "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
      see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."

      ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
      He had the by-laws changed
      after he took over from D.G.
      and neither the President nor
      the EK Board has any voting
      authority. Only Klemp can hire
      and fire. The local Satsang
      Societies and local Boards have
      been set up the same (As Above).
      Thus, the RESAs can hire and
      fire the local Presidents and
      Board members and the votes
      of Board members carry no
      authority! The RESA has the
      sole authority, unless, a higher
      authority at the ESC steps in.
      However, when this is done
      it is always with the approval
      of Klemp and under his direction.


      "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."

      ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
      ECK Master" was the best book written
      depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
      There were three interviews done around
      June 1971 while PT was the full blown
      self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
      is that after all of these years he's still
      lying about his past. Klemp has stated
      on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
      and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
      Who's Who and had never traveled all that
      far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
      1971 interview), is saying he was almost
      16 years old when he, first, went from
      Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
      Sudar Singh. There are more examples
      that are even more outlandish. Paul's
      comments about how he confused things
      and screwed up paperwork so that he
      could take it easy during the start of
      WWII showed a level of subversion and
      sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
      accomplish!

      "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."

      ME: I think that we all have to get
      over the guilt and shame of being
      tricked. Look at all of those who
      belong to a religion and donate
      time and money in order to get
      their "feel good" fix. Religions
      are types of opiates... Eckankar
      too! People need to believe in
      something that can give them
      hope and to help them to maintain
      a positive outlook. And, conmen
      know what people want and need.
      Attitude is, also, important but
      there's a fine line between being
      positive and being delusional.
      Sometimes it's difficult to know
      where to draw the line and some
      of us have more difficulty with
      seeing the good versus seeing
      the bad. However, I don't think
      that seeing the glass half-empty
      is always wrong, but it does present
      more of a challenge to overcome.

      "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"

      ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
      ever needed to jump off a bridge
      and do a strip tease at an airport
      and choose jail or a mental institution
      in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
      was a liar up to the moment of his
      untimely death and, thus, was not
      a "spiritual being." It was all about
      him. Besides, many people have
      done stupid things when confused
      with life and have sought "spiritual
      solutions." If one chose to, one could
      claim that their mental missteps
      and episodes were "spiritual
      experiences" as Klemp has done.
      Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
      hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
      excuse his mental confusion.
      After all, HK's the leader of a
      church and has to be above
      and beyond reproach. It's a
      pretend game where he has
      to, partially, buy into the hype
      in order to seem authentic.

      "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."

      ME: I, too, know and remember some
      H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
      as long as they don't know who I am.
      That could/would change I'm sure.
      They would feel betrayed and insulted
      and I could understand that, however,
      that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
      To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
      not due to Eckankar or because of
      inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
      That crap just gets in the way and
      causes more codependency. Any
      growth or realization leading to
      an expanded awareness is learned
      and earned by the individual. It's
      their own personal and private
      relationship to the Holy Spirit or
      whatever one wants to call this
      divine essence, or not, that leads
      to a divine knowingness and to
      contentment!

      "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."

      ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
      while knowing about the deceptions
      and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
      if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
      why throw the baby out with the
      (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
      nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
      of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
      works why complain? H.I.s have
      put blinders on in order to stay
      the course and maintain their
      prestigious positions which took
      them decades of time and money
      to obtain. Many have rejected, in
      part, HK's RESA structure and the
      ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
      that did the same... picked and
      chose what they wanted to follow
      and believe. However, that's not
      the way Eckankar is supposed to
      work. One is supposed to take
      the bait and swallow it hook, line,
      and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
      only the best from all of the other
      religions and experts, etc. in order
      to create (or bring forth) the EK
      dogma to the modern Western
      world. Thus, how can one pick
      and chose when it's all, supposedly,
      relevant? If a person is not consciously
      following the guidance and the will
      of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
      they are heretics!

      "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."

      ME: True! It's nice to belong.
      Humans are social animals
      and most like to follow in
      one way or another because
      it's easier to follow than to
      lead. Being a follower requires
      less thought and energy. It's
      less demanding, less consuming,
      and is less stressful. It is true
      that the Higher one is with
      initiations, years, and titles
      the more lost that individual
      is. They've bought into it
      to the extreme. Look at Marge
      Klemp! However, the ones
      to really feel sorry for are those
      ESC staffers who know it's all
      a sham and Klemp is a poser,
      but they have to put on an act
      in order to keep their jobs,
      health care, retirement, etc.


      "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."

      ME: Doug Marman is an old
      friend of Klemp's who's an
      apologist for Eckankar. I think
      he's a 7th. He's got some books
      out there that have overlooked
      many facts and are based upon
      lies and hearsay. What's funny,
      however, is that Doug's stated
      that Twitchell lied about traveling
      to Paris, France to visit his sister
      when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
      And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
      was probably made up by Twitchell.
      After all, PT needed to have
      someone other than Kirpal Singh,
      his real master, initiate him.
      Thus, PT created RT in order to
      initiate himself. Plus, Marman
      has admitted that Twitchell
      created the Mahanta title in
      January 1969. Yet, Marman
      omits all of this information
      in his books!

      "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.

      Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.

      May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."

      ME: Thanks for sharing this.
      It was interesting for me to
      comment.


      prometheus wrote:

      This is an entertaining approach.

      http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

      Prometheus

    • prometheus_973
      Hello Janice, Actually Marman kind of side-steps the Rebazar issue with some double talk. He agrees that there is no proof or records of Rebazar s existence,
      Message 2 of 14 , May 3, 2012
        Hello Janice,
        Actually Marman kind of
        side-steps the Rebazar
        issue with some double
        talk. He agrees that there
        is no proof or records
        of Rebazar's existence,
        but states that it can't
        be proven that Rebazar
        doesn't exist. How can
        anyone disprove a negative?

        Well, via a timeline! PT
        mentions in "Difficulties"
        of meeting Rebazar (pgs.
        70-71) in 1947 where he
        went up to the 7th initiation
        and then met with him
        again on a third visit
        to India around 1951
        where PT "got the finish
        of my initiations." Except,
        PT never knew of the term
        or rank of Mahanta until
        Jan. 1969... which Marman
        verifies and admits that
        this was when Paul created
        the Mahanta. That's rather
        strange isn't it since there's
        supposed to be an "Ancient
        Lineage of Mahantas."

        [On pg. 48 PT mentions that
        his first visit to India was in
        1924 when he was 15 (born
        1908)].

        Plus, let's not forget than
        Marman points out that
        Twitchell went to visit his
        sister in Paris, Kentucky
        and not Paris, France! Yes,
        Marman admits that Twit
        lied! So, how could Paul have
        met Sudar in Paris, France
        and then traveled to India
        with him where he received
        his 1st and 2nd initiations
        and then turned over, by
        Sudar, to Rebazar? It never
        happened!

        Apparently, Marman has
        trouble connecting the dots!

        Thus, how can there be
        an Ancient Lineage when
        the Mahanta was created
        in 1969? This, also, means
        that Rebazar was not a
        Mahanta nor were any so-
        called ECK (Spiritual) Masters
        prior to Rebazar. Actually,
        it points out that Twitchell
        never met Rebazar because
        he doesn't exist.

        Also, Marman states that
        the belief in saints, saviors,
        and spiritual masters is an
        intrinsic memory that Soul
        has remembered from past
        lifetimes... thus it must be
        true! These were never conmen,
        fakes, or snake oil salesmen
        and everyone knows that
        the Catholic Church and Sant
        Mat never exaggerated the
        PR of their saints!

        BTW- The following TS
        response can be found in
        the FILES section listed on
        the left under HOME,
        MESSAGES, and above
        LINKS.

        Doug Marman
        02/08/2004

        [FROM FORD JOHNSON'S (old) "THE TRUTH SEEKER" site]:

        A Few Responses:

        To Nacal [Prometheus]:

        [MARMAN ON REBAZAR]
        You went on:
        "Let's now go back up to the
        preceding paragraph since
        you seem to claim to like
        "facts" (why don't you give
        your sources?).

        "But it is a fact that his Master
        Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan
        lama, who appears to be in his
        early forties, was a young man
        when Columbus discovered America."
        Now, was that really a "fact," or
        a delusional belief, or a deliberate
        lie? Or, is it that, "There is a need
        of the people to believe in the magic
        of a saviour, and Sri Paul Twitchell
        knows this and acts out the part"
        (same article)."

        Marman: "It certainly is no fact,
        since there are no records nor
        anything else to prove that Rebazar
        Tarzs even exists, never mind
        how old he really is.

        However, there is no proof that
        it is a lie, either.

        It certainly sounds far-fetched.
        But I don't think the belief in
        saints, saviors and spiritual
        teachers comes from the desire
        to believe in magic. I think it
        comes from the innate memory
        within Soul that there is a truth
        and meaning to life that most
        of the world seems to have forgotten,
        but some remember."

        I don't think Eckankar is doing
        all that well. It's a limited audience
        with limited resources. Fortunately,
        Klemp is the main reason that
        Eckankar hasn't grown larger.

        Prometheus


        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        >
        > Prometheus,
        >  
        > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
        >  
        > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why? 

        The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
        >  
        > Thanks
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > From: prometheus
        >
        >
        > Hello Janice and All,
        > Interesting. I think I'll
        > share some comments
        > to your insights below.
        >
        > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        > "Prometheus,
        >
        > Now that is very interesting.
        >
        > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
        >
        > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
        >
        > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
        >
        > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
        >
        > ME (Prometheus): I know that
        > many of us have had similar
        > experiences of being attacked
        > by negative entities and having
        > to defend ourselves. In this case
        > your RESA was, also, one of these
        > negative beings. Too bad you
        > couldn't protect yourself from
        > them, but it's deceptive when
        > one has placed trust in a RESA
        > by assuming they are always
        > positive and always on your side.
        > They are as closed minded and
        > defensive as is any religionist
        > when protecting their dogma
        > from too much scrutiny.
        >
        > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
        >
        > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
        > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
        > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
        > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
        > the catch is that there's a time limit for
        > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
        > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
        > meditation/contemplation one will change
        > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
        > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
        > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
        > dream and imagine all sorts of things
        > when attention is placed upon these
        > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
        > and every other conman knew and uses
        > and what Klemp continues to use as
        > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
        > the magician uses while the viewer's
        > attention is distracted elsewhere.
        >
        >
        > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
        >
        > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
        > are real. It could very well be that demons
        > are metaphors for those things that bother
        > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
        > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
        > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
        > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
        > have problems since they tend to pick and
        > choose what is easy for them to believe
        > since they tend to be more simple-minded
        > and tend to see most everything in literal,
        > narrow, terms.
        >
        >
        > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
        > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
        >
        > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
        > He had the by-laws changed
        > after he took over from D.G.
        > and neither the President nor
        > the EK Board has any voting
        > authority. Only Klemp can hire
        > and fire. The local Satsang
        > Societies and local Boards have
        > been set up the same (As Above).
        > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
        > fire the local Presidents and
        > Board members and the votes
        > of Board members carry no
        > authority! The RESA has the
        > sole authority, unless, a higher
        > authority at the ESC steps in.
        > However, when this is done
        > it is always with the approval
        > of Klemp and under his direction.
        >
        >
        > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
        >
        > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
        > ECK Master" was the best book written
        > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
        > There were three interviews done around
        > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
        > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
        > is that after all of these years he's still
        > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
        > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
        > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
        > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
        > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
        > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
        > 16 years old when he, first, went from
        > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
        > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
        > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
        > comments about how he confused things
        > and screwed up paperwork so that he
        > could take it easy during the start of
        > WWII showed a level of subversion and
        > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
        > accomplish!
        >
        > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
        >
        > ME: I think that we all have to get
        > over the guilt and shame of being
        > tricked. Look at all of those who
        > belong to a religion and donate
        > time and money in order to get
        > their "feel good" fix. Religions
        > are types of opiates... Eckankar
        > too! People need to believe in
        > something that can give them
        > hope and to help them to maintain
        > a positive outlook. And, conmen
        > know what people want and need.
        > Attitude is, also, important but
        > there's a fine line between being
        > positive and being delusional.
        > Sometimes it's difficult to know
        > where to draw the line and some
        > of us have more difficulty with
        > seeing the good versus seeing
        > the bad. However, I don't think
        > that seeing the glass half-empty
        > is always wrong, but it does present
        > more of a challenge to overcome.
        >
        > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
        > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
        >
        > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
        > ever needed to jump off a bridge
        > and do a strip tease at an airport
        > and choose jail or a mental institution
        > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
        > was a liar up to the moment of his
        > untimely death and, thus, was not
        > a "spiritual being." It was all about
        > him. Besides, many people have
        > done stupid things when confused
        > with life and have sought "spiritual
        > solutions." If one chose to, one could
        > claim that their mental missteps
        > and episodes were "spiritual
        > experiences" as Klemp has done.
        > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
        > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
        > excuse his mental confusion.
        > After all, HK's the leader of a
        > church and has to be above
        > and beyond reproach. It's a
        > pretend game where he has
        > to, partially, buy into the hype
        > in order to seem authentic.
        >
        > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
        >
        > ME: I, too, know and remember some
        > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
        > as long as they don't know who I am.
        > That could/would change I'm sure.
        > They would feel betrayed and insulted
        > and I could understand that, however,
        > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
        > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
        > not due to Eckankar or because of
        > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
        > That crap just gets in the way and
        > causes more codependency. Any
        > growth or realization leading to
        > an expanded awareness is learned
        > and earned by the individual. It's
        > their own personal and private
        > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
        > whatever one wants to call this
        > divine essence, or not, that leads
        > to a divine knowingness and to
        > contentment!
        >
        > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
        >
        > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
        > while knowing about the deceptions
        > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
        > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
        > why throw the baby out with the
        > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
        > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
        > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
        > works why complain? H.I.s have
        > put blinders on in order to stay
        > the course and maintain their
        > prestigious positions which took
        > them decades of time and money
        > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
        > part, HK's RESA structure and the
        > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
        > that did the same... picked and
        > chose what they wanted to follow
        > and believe. However, that's not
        > the way Eckankar is supposed to
        > work. One is supposed to take
        > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
        > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
        > only the best from all of the other
        > religions and experts, etc. in order
        > to create (or bring forth) the EK
        > dogma to the modern Western
        > world. Thus, how can one pick
        > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
        > relevant? If a person is not consciously
        > following the guidance and the will
        > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
        > they are heretics!
        >
        > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
        >
        > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
        > Humans are social animals
        > and most like to follow in
        > one way or another because
        > it's easier to follow than to
        > lead. Being a follower requires
        > less thought and energy. It's
        > less demanding, less consuming,
        > and is less stressful. It is true
        > that the Higher one is with
        > initiations, years, and titles
        > the more lost that individual
        > is. They've bought into it
        > to the extreme. Look at Marge
        > Klemp! However, the ones
        > to really feel sorry for are those
        > ESC staffers who know it's all
        > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
        > but they have to put on an act
        > in order to keep their jobs,
        > health care, retirement, etc.
        >
        >
        > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
        >
        > ME: Doug Marman is an old
        > friend of Klemp's who's an
        > apologist for Eckankar. I think
        > he's a 7th. He's got some books
        > out there that have overlooked
        > many facts and are based upon
        > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
        > however, is that Doug's stated
        > that Twitchell lied about traveling
        > to Paris, France to visit his sister
        > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
        > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
        > was probably made up by Twitchell.
        > After all, PT needed to have
        > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
        > his real master, initiate him.
        > Thus, PT created RT in order to
        > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
        > has admitted that Twitchell
        > created the Mahanta title in
        > January 1969. Yet, Marman
        > omits all of this information
        > in his books!
        >
        > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
        >
        > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
        >
        > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
        >
        > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
        > It was interesting for me to
        > comment.
        >
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        >
        > This is an entertaining approach.
        >
        > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • etznab@aol.com
        I have the information recorded someplace about Marman s Rebazar Tarzs comments. I believe it s on a.r.e. someplace. Give me some time to find it ... if you
        Message 3 of 14 , May 5, 2012
          I have the information recorded someplace about Marman's Rebazar Tarzs
          comments. I believe it's on a.r.e. someplace. Give me some time to find
          it ... if you don't find it sooner.


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thu, May 3, 2012 4:28 pm
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
          (Revisited)







          Prometheus,
           
          You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me
          peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for
          being such a wise soul.
           
          Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted
          that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The
          circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced
          eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an
          organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more
          people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org
          is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by
          counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
           
          Thanks




          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
          (Revisited)
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM


           
          Hello Janice and All,
          Interesting. I think I'll
          share some comments
          to your insights below.

          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          "Prometheus,

          Now that is very interesting.

          I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so
          before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling
          in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My
          experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I
          heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know
          it started with a P.

          Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and
          then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I
          was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It
          was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly
          looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at
          me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I
          told it to get out now and never come back. It did.

          Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as
          being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams
          were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my
          favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found
          it very confusing to have these dreams.

          I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term
          relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that
          got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings
          since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true
          beauty in the teachings."

          ME (Prometheus): I know that
          many of us have had similar
          experiences of being attacked
          by negative entities and having
          to defend ourselves. In this case
          your RESA was, also, one of these
          negative beings. Too bad you
          couldn't protect yourself from
          them, but it's deceptive when
          one has placed trust in a RESA
          by assuming they are always
          positive and always on your side.
          They are as closed minded and
          defensive as is any religionist
          when protecting their dogma
          from too much scrutiny.

          "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it
          attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading
          all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another
          year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack
          seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of
          eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive
          thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I
          wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to
          them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many
          occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be
          respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories
          about the personal lives of other eckist."

          ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
          Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
          ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
          until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
          the catch is that there's a time limit for
          being skeptical. True, when one seeks
          the "Truth" via introspection and uses
          meditation/contemplation one will change
          and see with new eyes, but that's not due
          to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
          tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
          dream and imagine all sorts of things
          when attention is placed upon these
          areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
          and every other conman knew and uses
          and what Klemp continues to use as
          a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
          the magician uses while the viewer's
          attention is distracted elsewhere.


          "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind
          eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with
          demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have
          always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or
          demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say,
          I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't
          have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious
          hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature
          of eckankar."

          ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
          are real. It could very well be that demons
          are metaphors for those things that bother
          and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
          and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
          all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
          This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
          have problems since they tend to pick and
          choose what is easy for them to believe
          since they tend to be more simple-minded
          and tend to see most everything in literal,
          narrow, terms.


          "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and
          he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for
          the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
          see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest
          problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing
          using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even
          looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very
          intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like
          twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for
          spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As
          long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was
          easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate
          eckankar."

          ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
          He had the by-laws changed
          after he took over from D.G.
          and neither the President nor
          the EK Board has any voting
          authority. Only Klemp can hire
          and fire. The local Satsang
          Societies and local Boards have
          been set up the same (As Above).
          Thus, the RESAs can hire and
          fire the local Presidents and
          Board members and the votes
          of Board members carry no
          authority! The RESA has the
          sole authority, unless, a higher
          authority at the ESC steps in.
          However, when this is done
          it is always with the approval
          of Klemp and under his direction.


          "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by
          twitchell and others that the average person would think is not
          spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great
          power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been
          removed from print."

          ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
          ECK Master" was the best book written
          depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
          There were three interviews done around
          June 1971 while PT was the full blown
          self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
          is that after all of these years he's still
          lying about his past. Klemp has stated
          on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
          and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
          Who's Who and had never traveled all that
          far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
          1971 interview), is saying he was almost
          16 years old when he, first, went from
          Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
          Sudar Singh. There are more examples
          that are even more outlandish. Paul's
          comments about how he confused things
          and screwed up paperwork so that he
          could take it easy during the start of
          WWII showed a level of subversion and
          sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
          accomplish!

          "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so
          confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit
          nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable
          eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it
          was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of
          eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more
          money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that
          although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a
          single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I
          wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of
          myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people
          feel dumb, gullible and used."

          ME: I think that we all have to get
          over the guilt and shame of being
          tricked. Look at all of those who
          belong to a religion and donate
          time and money in order to get
          their "feel good" fix. Religions
          are types of opiates... Eckankar
          too! People need to believe in
          something that can give them
          hope and to help them to maintain
          a positive outlook. And, conmen
          know what people want and need.
          Attitude is, also, important but
          there's a fine line between being
          positive and being delusional.
          Sometimes it's difficult to know
          where to draw the line and some
          of us have more difficulty with
          seeing the good versus seeing
          the bad. However, I don't think
          that seeing the glass half-empty
          is always wrong, but it does present
          more of a challenge to overcome.

          "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I
          am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of
          them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I
          was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental
          conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this
          great living eck master help them over come these things or at least
          help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master
          had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is
          necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp
          describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with
          a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in
          public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed
          the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was
          woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary ordeal? Did he
          go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes
          and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"

          ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
          ever needed to jump off a bridge
          and do a strip tease at an airport
          and choose jail or a mental institution
          in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
          was a liar up to the moment of his
          untimely death and, thus, was not
          a "spiritual being." It was all about
          him. Besides, many people have
          done stupid things when confused
          with life and have sought "spiritual
          solutions." If one chose to, one could
          claim that their mental missteps
          and episodes were "spiritual
          experiences" as Klemp has done.
          Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
          hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
          excuse his mental confusion.
          After all, HK's the leader of a
          church and has to be above
          and beyond reproach. It's a
          pretend game where he has
          to, partially, buy into the hype
          in order to seem authentic.

          "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who
          appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well
          adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this
          article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is
          possible to grow in eckankar."

          ME: I, too, know and remember some
          H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
          as long as they don't know who I am.
          That could/would change I'm sure.
          They would feel betrayed and insulted
          and I could understand that, however,
          that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
          To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
          not due to Eckankar or because of
          inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
          That crap just gets in the way and
          causes more codependency. Any
          growth or realization leading to
          an expanded awareness is learned
          and earned by the individual. It's
          their own personal and private
          relationship to the Holy Spirit or
          whatever one wants to call this
          divine essence, or not, that leads
          to a divine knowingness and to
          contentment!

          "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came
          from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high
          initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply
          accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that
          the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed
          relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can
          use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings
          being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which
          ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth
          wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as
          needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this
          concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be
          knowingly condoned."

          ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
          while knowing about the deceptions
          and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
          if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
          why throw the baby out with the
          (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
          nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
          of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
          works why complain? H.I.s have
          put blinders on in order to stay
          the course and maintain their
          prestigious positions which took
          them decades of time and money
          to obtain. Many have rejected, in
          part, HK's RESA structure and the
          ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
          that did the same... picked and
          chose what they wanted to follow
          and believe. However, that's not
          the way Eckankar is supposed to
          work. One is supposed to take
          the bait and swallow it hook, line,
          and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
          only the best from all of the other
          religions and experts, etc. in order
          to create (or bring forth) the EK
          dogma to the modern Western
          world. Thus, how can one pick
          and chose when it's all, supposedly,
          relevant? If a person is not consciously
          following the guidance and the will
          of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
          they are heretics!

          "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than
          eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as
          greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still
          wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that
          eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel
          for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just
          remember the good and bless them in my heart."

          ME: True! It's nice to belong.
          Humans are social animals
          and most like to follow in
          one way or another because
          it's easier to follow than to
          lead. Being a follower requires
          less thought and energy. It's
          less demanding, less consuming,
          and is less stressful. It is true
          that the Higher one is with
          initiations, years, and titles
          the more lost that individual
          is. They've bought into it
          to the extreme. Look at Marge
          Klemp! However, the ones
          to really feel sorry for are those
          ESC staffers who know it's all
          a sham and Klemp is a poser,
          but they have to put on an act
          in order to keep their jobs,
          health care, retirement, etc.


          "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I
          will look them up but any info any of you can share would be
          appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are
          these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an
          eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."

          ME: Doug Marman is an old
          friend of Klemp's who's an
          apologist for Eckankar. I think
          he's a 7th. He's got some books
          out there that have overlooked
          many facts and are based upon
          lies and hearsay. What's funny,
          however, is that Doug's stated
          that Twitchell lied about traveling
          to Paris, France to visit his sister
          when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
          And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
          was probably made up by Twitchell.
          After all, PT needed to have
          someone other than Kirpal Singh,
          his real master, initiate him.
          Thus, PT created RT in order to
          initiate himself. Plus, Marman
          has admitted that Twitchell
          created the Mahanta title in
          January 1969. Yet, Marman
          omits all of this information
          in his books!

          "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a
          private person, I felt a need to write it.

          Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.

          May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual
          experiences."

          ME: Thanks for sharing this.
          It was interesting for me to
          comment.


          prometheus wrote:

          This is an entertaining approach.

          http://www.scribd.com
          /doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

          Prometheus
        • postekcon
          Ekult was born in the psychic era of the 1960s, TM (transcendental meditation), visiting Ashrams by pop groups such as The Beatles, and even Paul Twitchell!
          Message 4 of 14 , May 5, 2012
            Ekult was born in the psychic era of the 1960s, TM (transcendental meditation), visiting Ashrams by pop groups such as The Beatles, and even Paul Twitchell!

            World consciousness has since moved on, but ekult is still stuck in its roots. This is why it is unable to recruit from populations today. It is no longer 'current'!

            Ekult's foundation was built upon conjured-up entities, they called them 'masters'. These 'masters' were brought into manifestation and are solely kept in manifestation today by the constant focus of attention of ekult followers. Simply withdraw this attention- nada 'masters' and nada manifestations!

            But more importantly, the mahanta entity (created 1969), is the psychic engine which sucks ekult followers dry of their energies. This is why HK constantly demands: think of me; think of me; think of me all the time! This is one modus operandi of how the energy is transferred, others are via the 'initiation' process and 'surrender'.

            Should an ekult follower withdraw their energy, or leave the movement, to explain in simplistic terms; the mahanta entity is most displeased at its pending demise, and what we might call a psychic attack ensues.

            -Postekcon


            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Prometheus,
            >  
            > Now that is very interesting. 
            >  
            >  I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out.  I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy.  My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and  I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later.  I know it started with a P.  Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness.  This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake.  The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp.  It was a strong  male voice.  A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed.  In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back.  It did.  Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con
            > artist.  The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so.  While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character.  He seemed the most spiritual at the time.  I found it very confusing to have these dreams.   I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate.   I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa.  I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist.  I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings.   
            >  
            > And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down.  I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist.  It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person.  I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings.  It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly.  I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions.  Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist.    
            >  
            >  I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons.  I am not sure demons are real and separate entities.  I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if  I  read what they have to say, I  dismiss a lot of it.  If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist.   This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar. 
            >  
            >  I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good.  I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups.  I really don't s
            >  see anything really outstanding about klemp at all.  That was my biggest problem with eckankar.  When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man.  He even looked miserable.  I saw no power.  He wasn't charismatic.  He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see.  He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical.  As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar. 
            >  
            >  It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual.  I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print. 
            >  
            >  I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things.  Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated.  I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me.  They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence.  I wasn't doing that.  I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar.  Well, not that I know of anyway.  Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest.  I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member.  Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used.
            >  
            > Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy.  I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems.  Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot.   Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist.  But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world?    If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being?  Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public?  Not in my opinion anyway.  Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as
            > kind of a necessary ordeal?  Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience? 
            >  
            > I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings.  Some appeared to be well adjusted people.  Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving.  Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar. 
            >  
            >  I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time.  One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest.  I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep.  Also,  if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed.   Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person.  Lies should not be knowingly condoned.
            >  
            >   I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else.  They are under the eckankar spell.  I still wouldn't want contact with them though.  I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them.  It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them.  So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart. 
            >  
            > Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with.  I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated.  Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh?  Are these really old names in eckankar history?    Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article.  The other two appear to be writers. 
            >  
            > Telling my experience wasn't easy for me.  Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it. 
            >  
            > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus. 
            >  
            > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences.
            >  
            >
            >
            > --- On Thu, 5/3/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 12:29 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            >
            >
            > This is an entertaining approach.
            >
            > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
          • etznab18
            Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? Some select trivia
            Message 5 of 14 , May 5, 2012
              "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

              Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

              To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

              (1)

              Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

              [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

              The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

              So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

              It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

              http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

              (2)

              July 2001:

              "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

              Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

              http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

              (3)

              July 2003:

              Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
              What are your on that stuff ?
              I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
              As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
              It's all a matter of perspective.
              I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
              On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

              http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

              (4) February 2004:

              "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

              http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

              (5)

              March 2007:

              [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
              Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
              I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
              So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
              I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
              These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
              In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

              http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
              >
              > Prometheus,
              >  
              > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
              >  
              > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
              >  
              > Thanks
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > Hello Janice and All,
              > Interesting. I think I'll
              > share some comments
              > to your insights below.
              >
              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              > "Prometheus,
              >
              > Now that is very interesting.
              >
              > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
              >
              > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
              >
              > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
              >
              > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
              >
              > ME (Prometheus): I know that
              > many of us have had similar
              > experiences of being attacked
              > by negative entities and having
              > to defend ourselves. In this case
              > your RESA was, also, one of these
              > negative beings. Too bad you
              > couldn't protect yourself from
              > them, but it's deceptive when
              > one has placed trust in a RESA
              > by assuming they are always
              > positive and always on your side.
              > They are as closed minded and
              > defensive as is any religionist
              > when protecting their dogma
              > from too much scrutiny.
              >
              > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
              >
              > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
              > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
              > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
              > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
              > the catch is that there's a time limit for
              > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
              > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
              > meditation/contemplation one will change
              > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
              > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
              > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
              > dream and imagine all sorts of things
              > when attention is placed upon these
              > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
              > and every other conman knew and uses
              > and what Klemp continues to use as
              > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
              > the magician uses while the viewer's
              > attention is distracted elsewhere.
              >
              >
              > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
              >
              > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
              > are real. It could very well be that demons
              > are metaphors for those things that bother
              > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
              > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
              > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
              > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
              > have problems since they tend to pick and
              > choose what is easy for them to believe
              > since they tend to be more simple-minded
              > and tend to see most everything in literal,
              > narrow, terms.
              >
              >
              > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
              > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
              >
              > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
              > He had the by-laws changed
              > after he took over from D.G.
              > and neither the President nor
              > the EK Board has any voting
              > authority. Only Klemp can hire
              > and fire. The local Satsang
              > Societies and local Boards have
              > been set up the same (As Above).
              > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
              > fire the local Presidents and
              > Board members and the votes
              > of Board members carry no
              > authority! The RESA has the
              > sole authority, unless, a higher
              > authority at the ESC steps in.
              > However, when this is done
              > it is always with the approval
              > of Klemp and under his direction.
              >
              >
              > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
              >
              > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
              > ECK Master" was the best book written
              > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
              > There were three interviews done around
              > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
              > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
              > is that after all of these years he's still
              > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
              > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
              > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
              > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
              > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
              > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
              > 16 years old when he, first, went from
              > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
              > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
              > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
              > comments about how he confused things
              > and screwed up paperwork so that he
              > could take it easy during the start of
              > WWII showed a level of subversion and
              > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
              > accomplish!
              >
              > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
              >
              > ME: I think that we all have to get
              > over the guilt and shame of being
              > tricked. Look at all of those who
              > belong to a religion and donate
              > time and money in order to get
              > their "feel good" fix. Religions
              > are types of opiates... Eckankar
              > too! People need to believe in
              > something that can give them
              > hope and to help them to maintain
              > a positive outlook. And, conmen
              > know what people want and need.
              > Attitude is, also, important but
              > there's a fine line between being
              > positive and being delusional.
              > Sometimes it's difficult to know
              > where to draw the line and some
              > of us have more difficulty with
              > seeing the good versus seeing
              > the bad. However, I don't think
              > that seeing the glass half-empty
              > is always wrong, but it does present
              > more of a challenge to overcome.
              >
              > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
              > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
              >
              > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
              > ever needed to jump off a bridge
              > and do a strip tease at an airport
              > and choose jail or a mental institution
              > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
              > was a liar up to the moment of his
              > untimely death and, thus, was not
              > a "spiritual being." It was all about
              > him. Besides, many people have
              > done stupid things when confused
              > with life and have sought "spiritual
              > solutions." If one chose to, one could
              > claim that their mental missteps
              > and episodes were "spiritual
              > experiences" as Klemp has done.
              > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
              > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
              > excuse his mental confusion.
              > After all, HK's the leader of a
              > church and has to be above
              > and beyond reproach. It's a
              > pretend game where he has
              > to, partially, buy into the hype
              > in order to seem authentic.
              >
              > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
              >
              > ME: I, too, know and remember some
              > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
              > as long as they don't know who I am.
              > That could/would change I'm sure.
              > They would feel betrayed and insulted
              > and I could understand that, however,
              > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
              > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
              > not due to Eckankar or because of
              > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
              > That crap just gets in the way and
              > causes more codependency. Any
              > growth or realization leading to
              > an expanded awareness is learned
              > and earned by the individual. It's
              > their own personal and private
              > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
              > whatever one wants to call this
              > divine essence, or not, that leads
              > to a divine knowingness and to
              > contentment!
              >
              > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
              >
              > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
              > while knowing about the deceptions
              > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
              > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
              > why throw the baby out with the
              > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
              > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
              > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
              > works why complain? H.I.s have
              > put blinders on in order to stay
              > the course and maintain their
              > prestigious positions which took
              > them decades of time and money
              > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
              > part, HK's RESA structure and the
              > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
              > that did the same... picked and
              > chose what they wanted to follow
              > and believe. However, that's not
              > the way Eckankar is supposed to
              > work. One is supposed to take
              > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
              > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
              > only the best from all of the other
              > religions and experts, etc. in order
              > to create (or bring forth) the EK
              > dogma to the modern Western
              > world. Thus, how can one pick
              > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
              > relevant? If a person is not consciously
              > following the guidance and the will
              > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
              > they are heretics!
              >
              > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
              >
              > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
              > Humans are social animals
              > and most like to follow in
              > one way or another because
              > it's easier to follow than to
              > lead. Being a follower requires
              > less thought and energy. It's
              > less demanding, less consuming,
              > and is less stressful. It is true
              > that the Higher one is with
              > initiations, years, and titles
              > the more lost that individual
              > is. They've bought into it
              > to the extreme. Look at Marge
              > Klemp! However, the ones
              > to really feel sorry for are those
              > ESC staffers who know it's all
              > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
              > but they have to put on an act
              > in order to keep their jobs,
              > health care, retirement, etc.
              >
              >
              > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
              >
              > ME: Doug Marman is an old
              > friend of Klemp's who's an
              > apologist for Eckankar. I think
              > he's a 7th. He's got some books
              > out there that have overlooked
              > many facts and are based upon
              > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
              > however, is that Doug's stated
              > that Twitchell lied about traveling
              > to Paris, France to visit his sister
              > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
              > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
              > was probably made up by Twitchell.
              > After all, PT needed to have
              > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
              > his real master, initiate him.
              > Thus, PT created RT in order to
              > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
              > has admitted that Twitchell
              > created the Mahanta title in
              > January 1969. Yet, Marman
              > omits all of this information
              > in his books!
              >
              > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
              >
              > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
              >
              > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
              >
              > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
              > It was interesting for me to
              > comment.
              >
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              >
              > This is an entertaining approach.
              >
              > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
            • prometheus_973
              BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus: A Calm And Peaceful Message For All Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is
              Message 6 of 14 , May 5, 2012
                BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus:



                A Calm And Peaceful Message For All


                Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is being
                typed. I have really been for the most part enjoying the dialogue on this message
                board.

                I would like to encourage Doug Marman to continue posting here. I think
                gradually we can all learn something that will help us move toward a greater
                understanding.

                We can do this together regardless of religious belief and possibly emerge in
                a place with no fences. I have many friends from different beliefs and something
                I have noticed in the last 10 years or so is that our differences don't separate
                us as much as they used to. There is a coming together of sorts and a move
                towards higher conciousness.

                I have seen this come about through heartfelt sharing of ideas.

                ***A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still an Eckist?

                I send all who read this my love

                Freeman


                Joey Ward
                02/09/2004
                Top

                Thanks Doug



                Thank you very much for the reply to the 5 questions that I asked of you. Also
                thanks for looking through Paul Twitchell's writings and finding the same thing that I
                found out about Paul not using the term MAHANTA until January 1969. It means a lot to me that you answered that question I ask a while back. I join Eckankar because the
                Mahanta was the highest state of consciousness in this world and in the inner
                worlds so said Paul Twitchell the 971st MAHANTA (the title he gave himself). I
                still wonder why Paul would say such a thing. To me this is the biggest lie that
                any person could say. To make up a line of Mahanta Masters, (highest state of
                consciousness and God made flesh) what was Paul thinking of. O' well !!! I
                guess the next time I see Paul in the astral library I will give him a kick in
                the pants.

                Thanks Doug,
                Joey Ward

                PS..... Doug, next time you see Harold, could you tell him that Joey would like
                to see Him start posting on The Truth Seeker Bulletin Board. It sure would be grand of
                Harold to do so. Thanks again for your help.


                Seeker For The Last Time
                02/08/2004
                Top

                Another X`Eckist Story



                I joined Eckankar in the early 80's, attracted partly because of their concept
                of Soul Travel and left in the mid-90's. I had become a 3rd Initiate by that time. Because of
                my outspoken aggressive remarks and asking too many questions about concealed facts about the organization, many wondered why the LEM had allowed me to reach that level.

                Initiations and secret words and the idea that we need a Master, mean nothing to
                me in this life because in my different existences I was connected to many of these
                concepts. There were times I needed these secret words and initiations and a Master and
                for those who need them now, it is OK. It is something many have to experience, if not in
                this lifetime, in a different one.

                In the mid-80's, I posted a few remarks on ARE. This was a good lesson for me,
                because some of the die-hard ECKists attempted to attack me with their "sword from the
                Sugmad" and "weed me out of the garden of ECK." I had no grudge against them because I
                knew they would learn to open their minds. At the time, they believed in what they
                did and that it was the right thing for them to do. I accepted it.

                I hadn't been on ARE for a long time but a few weeks ago I was impelled to go on
                it and out popped the information concerning Ford Johnson's book. In the past,
                ECKist would say it was the ECK or LEM. I ordered the book, which I am enjoying now.
                It brought back some memories of Eckankar.

                I was very surprised to see some of the die-hard and long-standing
                ECKists, including High Initiates, especially Nathan. This was a shock and it takes a lot to shock me. I am very happy for Nathan because we had communicated in the past. Nathan would make a very high class lawyer in this life(have no idea what he does). Boy, did he
                swing that sword for Eckankar. He left nothing standing. But that was then and now is now.
                I am happy, Nathan that you allowed yourself to open and move beyond the garden of
                ECK. There is so much more to learn.

                To some Eckankar is still a beautiful garden and I can respect that. I would like to stress that I have nothing against Eckankar and similar religions. They may be needed
                for souls to grow.

                I enjoyed reading the comments on this board..and I'll be back when I have time.

                I'll sign off with the name I used to use on ARE - Seeker, for the last time.



                Doug Marman
                02/08/2004
                Top

                A Few Responses



                I've received a number of comments to my last post.

                I will respond to some of the questions and comments.

                To Degar:

                I agree with you that no church, book or religion can replace the part of us
                that knows. We also both agree on the importance of fearlessness in seeing
                truth, and the importance of teachings with heart.

                My lights are fine, as are yours.


                To Joey Ward:

                I don't do yes or no questions, but I will try to keep my answers short:

                1. Did Paul Twitchell have the highest state of consciousness as the Godman
                as he told the world through his writings?

                I don't know how anyone could say who was highest or who is even higher than
                another. So, I would never say such a thing, myself. I don't even think having the
                highest state of consciousness should be anyone's goal. A person can gain a high state of
                consciousness and be unable to make a living here in the physical. That's not very useful.

                2. Does Harold Klemp have the highest state of consciousness as the Godman
                as he is telling the world throught his writings?

                Same as above, however, I will add this. I agree with the Sufis who say that there is what they call The Pole of The World. The Sufi teacher Ibn al' Arabi points out that this same principle applies at every level of human affairs. Another Sufi put it this way: "Just as there is someone who acts as the pole for the whole of humanity, so there are poles for every faith, community, occupation - even down to the level of towns."

                We sense when we are near such people since they seem to represent and carry the
                whole of the town or company or faith that they are a part of. Every age has
                those who carry the whole of things for the world at every level. We connect to that
                whole through their vision.

                However, I don't believe in saying who the Pole of the World is, since everyone
                needs to find this out for themselves. In fact, in most times through history the Pole
                of The World was hidden. The Sufis say this as well.

                3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?

                Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes.

                4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on
                them as if the Eck Master were saying them?

                Yes.

                5. Who do you Trust to tell the truth about Spiritual truths? Pick one only.
                [Names omitted]

                I see all teachings as mines. The good ones are gold mines, but they all need to be sorted through to find the pure gold. I have found no outer teachings that are pure gold.

                The only place to test the gold is within ourselves, when we try to use it in our lives.

                You might point to an outer person. I would rather point to our inner knowingness to recognize truth. We often do pick it up from others, however.


                To Journey:

                You asked: "If you are not trying to undermine Ford and his book "Confessions of
                a God Seeker," why did you give such a negative opinion about the book in The
                Chanhassen Villager last November?"

                If you read my comments to the Chanhassen Villager, just like in my last post, it is focused on the errors in what David Lane has reported and the unfortunate fact that Ford repeated these as if they were facts as David did. I am absolutely amazed at how far the distortion of truths from David Lane has spread. I was disappointed that the newspaper had not done better research, and that Ford had not as well, especially since David Lane himself suggested to Ford that he study my book more thoroughly to see what had been discussed via the Internet.

                I am just as amazed at how quickly and completely people assume that I am some
                kind of pawn in a battle or fighting some kind of war against Ford for pointing out
                the errors. I guess this goes to show how far off perceptions of someone else's motivations
                can be. People will imagine what my motivations are, but they are a million miles from
                the mark.

                I do agree that some people like to win their arguments no matter what, and since I have no interest in that, this is exactly why I have said I would say no more about such things unless folks here were interested. From the responses I've seen, there doesn't seem to be much interest in what I was writing about.

                I think you are right that we should all look at our motivations. I have certainly done so and have tried only to offer help in clearing up some of the confusions that have been going on for a while by getting to the facts. I have tried to stay far from criticizing anyone else's beliefs, although I do think some friendly dialogue in this area is good.

                I think it is just as important to look at the motivations for bringing up my personal motivations. I have not questioned Ford's motivations, nor would I. I think his intentions are sincere. Getting stuck over another person's so-called intentions is often the way our Censor stops us from seeing another person's point of view fairly.

                When we get so attached to our cause, anyone who says anything that appears to
                interfere with our cause becomes or enemy. The motivations of our enemies are always wrong in our minds. Ask them and they would say the same about their enemies.

                It is a sad fact that public dialogue over religious matters is almost impossible these days.
                This was not true in America during its early days. Public dialogue was often lively and contentious, but never came to people disowning their neighbors or rejecting their families and friends like it does today.

                As far as I am concerned, we are all friends here with a common interest in Spiritual Truth.
                That is how I see it. And we will each decide for ourselves what is true, as we should.


                To DD:

                You wrote: "You spend all of your time chipping away at the edges of the argument,
                finding miniscule points of contention (a minor date discrepancy here, a location there)
                but not once do you address the underlying core truth that is being and has been
                expressed here from the very beginning."

                Exactly right. So why is everyone getting so worked up about it? Why is no one
                simply acknowledging the minor points and letting it go? These are not core truths,
                just a matter of correcting errors in fact.

                No, I don't agree that my "can't we all get along" message doesn't help us get at the truth. In fact, let me say it this way: If we can not listen to those who see things differently than we do, then we will never see Truth. This doesn't mean we should all agree, but it certainly
                does mean that we should be able to hold respectful and friendly conversations
                with those who have a different way of seeing things. We should be open to learning from
                others.

                You wrote: "Your method is to find a few unimportant discrepancies and use them
                as an attempt to discredit the entire revelation of overall truth discovered."

                This is incorrect. I am only trying to point out the errors. I am not trying to discredit the entire message. But clearly, after we have seen the facts for what they are, the overall picture does change somewhat. That's natural.

                Since so many of David Lane's claims are in fact not based on facts at all, but merely
                on imagined intentions and speculations, I have also offered other possible interpretations.
                My point is not that David's guesses are wrong and mine are right, but simply to
                show how widely interpretations can vary when there are no facts.

                You are the one who is painting a picture of black and white, not I. I don't see David
                or Ford as all wrong, nor as all right. I say let's find the gold wherever we look.
                Why blame anyone for the fact that everything they offer is not pure gold?

                Lastly, you suggest that I am defending a teaching and that I am an apologist.
                Okay, perhaps I am. I don't feel that is what I am doing, but I can see it would
                look that way to you. But surely you see that your comments are the same. You are
                also defending your beliefs. In fact, everyone who has responded to my post on this
                bulletin board has picked at what I would call minor, technical details and
                completely avoided my points. This doesn't mean you or anyone else here is any less
                sincere, does it?


                To Nacal:

                You asked: "Where do you ever give a reference or a quote from your sources?"

                They are in my book, and have been thoroughly discussed on alt.religion.eckankar
                and can be found in the records there. I would be glad to present them here as
                well, if anyone was interested.

                You asked: "Why have you returned without answering the questions posed to you
                by site members in previous postings? When did Twitchell first write about the
                mahanta?

                Was it 1969 as one site member has stated?"

                I answered last time that I had just moved to a new home and my files were still
                packed in boxes. They are still packed in boxes, but a few are handy so I pulled out
                Paul's old Wisdom Notes and Illuminated Way Letters.

                You seem to be right. Paul didn't use the word, Mahanta, until the January 1969
                Illuminated Way Letter and the February 1969 Wisdom Note. Before then he mainly used, The
                Master, Spiritual Traveler, Teacher, etc. Not even the mention of Living ECK
                Master very often, although Outer Master and living Master were mentioned often.

                This is interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

                You wrote: "You are also being untruthful when you say that you, "… have no
                desire to interfere with the beliefs of anyone."

                And how would you know that? You seem to know my own desires and intentions
                better than I do. Clearly I will need to ask you next time what my intentions
                and desires are.

                This is foolishness. Do you realize how hard it is to know the desires of your
                own children?

                How often do parents misunderstand what their children are trying to do? Have
                you never had this happen to you when you were a child? Yet you think you can
                actually guess my desires, when you don't even know me? Have we even met?

                Why do people spend so much time imagining they KNOW the intentions of those
                they disagree with?

                I see this with ECKists just as often as with David Lane and the group here. So,
                I'm not picking on this group. I see it as a real trap and an excuse to justify
                rejecting what another person has to say.

                You wrote: "You also claim to "have enjoyed the conversations on this bulletin
                board" and yet you only respond to selective questions."

                That's right. That was what I came here to share, after Ford claimed that I was
                not after the kind of truth that could be discussed openly and that my book was
                not about encouraging open dialogue. I came here for just that kind of dialogue,
                but guess what? No one here wants to discuss the facts or the errors openly.

                If I were Ford, I would care enough to make sure the facts I was using were
                accurate. I thought, especially as a lawyer, he would want to know.

                You wrote: "You attempt to confuse (like Paul and Harold) by twisting and
                abusing truth in order to blind the reader with your distortions and illusions of reality."

                If you really believe this, then why not point out a quote where you feel this
                is what I am attempting to do, rather than making broad accusations about my
                motivations? Why not just address directly what what I am saying and point out
                how you see it differently? I have no intention of twisting the truth in anyway
                at all.

                You wrote: "Is what Harold's teaches (Eckankar) a myth?

                "Since I brought the subject up can you tell me if the Holocaust was a myth or
                not?

                "Some things ARE black and white so just give a yes or no answer to the
                previously mentioned two questions. Please, no long-winded explanation, yes or
                no to each question."

                Sorry, I don't do yes or no answers, but I'll be glad to discuss your questions.
                Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught about Eckankar is a myth. Yes, I think
                a lot of what people think about the Holocaust is made up of myth as well. This
                doesn't mean that the Holocaust didn't happen, or that many of the stories or
                facts are lies. It just means that people often try to simplify things.

                History is largely made up of myth. There are a million personal individual
                stories about World War II, for example, yet the history books treat it as one
                thing that happened. The people who go through it don't see it the way the
                history books do. They were there, but the myths are what we can deal with to
                understand. Otherwise it is too complex.

                You wrote: "Doug, instead of focusing on David Lane or Ford's book let's now
                focus on the writings of Twitchell and Klemp and see where we can find
                inaccuracies, or is the world still flat to you? Did you like the posting from
                the May-June-July 1971 Mystic World about Twitchell? "No one really knows for
                sure where he came from, when he was born, or if his true name is even Paul
                Twitchell. How long he has been on this Earth planet is not known." Or, how
                about this quote from the same article, "Paul is known to the world as Peddar
                Zaskq, which is his real name, is an occidental." Wasn't this also his name for
                his last incarnation and his spiritual name?"

                Obviously we now know where he came from and was born (Paducah, Kentucky) and
                that his true name was not Paul Twitchell, but was John Paul Twitchell. We also
                now know when he was born (1909). Paul certainly didn't ever talk about these
                things, nor would he answer questions about them directly, and I think he liked
                the idea that his past was mysterious, and he helped to create this mysterious
                past. Yes, Paul is only known to the world as Peddar Zaskq because he told the
                world that was his spiritual name.

                And yes, this is the kind of writing that is mythological. Did you think I would
                say something else?

                You went on: "Let's now go back up to the preceding paragraph since you seem to
                claim to like "facts" (why don't you give your sources?). "But it is a fact that
                his Master Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan lama, who appears to be in his
                early forties, was a young man when Columbus discovered America." Now, was that
                really a "fact," or a delusional belief, or a deliberate lie? Or, is it that,
                "There is a need of the people to believe in the magic of a saviour, and Sri
                Paul Twitchell knows this and acts out the part" (same article)."

                It certainly is no fact, since there are no records nor anything else to prove
                that Rebazar Tarzs even exists, never mind how old he really is. However, there
                is no proof that it is a lie, either. It certainly sounds far-fetched. But I
                don't think the belief in saints, saviors and spiritual teachers comes from the
                desire to believe in magic. I think it comes from the innate memory within Soul
                that there is a truth and meaning to life that most of the world seems to have
                forgotten, but some remember.

                As Rumi once said, the reason that false gold is so popular is because there is
                such a thing as real gold.

                Of course, mixed with this is that many people want a father figure, or want
                someone to take care of them and tell them what is right and wrong.

                You wrote: "The sad thing is that there is no freedom in religion… there is only
                control through the use of fear and surrender of the common sense of having an
                open mind, and of course, the dangled carrot of initiation and hope."

                It certainly seems that way. To me, without freedom there is no point to a
                spiritual teaching. It is simply a social group. There is more peer pressure and
                more influence from the people who want everyone to be harmonious rather than
                speaking honestly, than control from above, but in general I agree with you.

                You wrote: "Paul states, "Ramaji was one of the first initiates in the ancient
                Order of the Vairagi." It seems Paul has a problem spelling his name. "Ji" is a
                Hindu suffix used to denote respect and affection. But, Paul is not speaking of
                Rama."

                Why do you think that Paul is referring to someone different than Rama? The
                Hindus often add the "ji" to the end of a name, and sometimes it is written with
                only the "j". Take the name Shamus-i-Tabriz. Generally this is spelled, Shams of
                Tabriz. Same person. Jalalludin Rumi is spelled dozens of ways. Sometimes he is
                also called Mevlana. Same person. Sometimes it is written Shabda Yoga, sometimes
                Shabd Yog. Sometimes Yoga is spelled Joga. I interpret this quote from Paul to
                be referring to the same person as Rama, but if you feel otherwise I would find
                it interesting to hear why.

                You asked: "By the way, why has Harold evaded giving his birth date and age?"

                I don't know. Probably because it is a personal fact that has nothing to do with
                his role. But maybe it is just a hold-over from Paul. You would have to ask him.
                My guess is that he doesn't want people holding birthday parties because of his
                birthdate.

                You wrote: "Also, why is it Doug that on page 282 that Harold, the mahanta,
                doesn't even know today about an experience he had in1970. He states, "Was he
                really an ECK Master? Who can say?" Shouldn't the Master who is greater than the
                God of all religions know such things?"

                I would have to read the whole quote in context. It sounds to me as if Harold is
                asking a rhetorical question. In other words, who can say if he was a Master
                then?

                Actually the question I ask is how did Darwin know that he was the Mahanta, or
                how does Harold know this? Isn't this like any initiate who might think they
                have gained the next initiation? Isn't this the same question? How do they
                really know?

                You ask: "Are the initiations in Eckankar valid as a means to greater spiritual
                growth over those who are non-eckists? Or, is this a myth too?"

                I think the initiations are a mixed bag. There is definitely reality to them,
                from my personal experience. But they have become filled with myths as well. I
                can tell you that real Self-Realization is rare, HI or not. The initiation level
                doesn't prove anything. It is more meaningful as a personal matter than a
                comparison to others. I don't think anyone should be judging another person's
                worth or truth by what initiation level they are at. Including the Master.

                You asked: "Paul states on page 136 of Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK
                Master, "Cause with all of that, see, I write books in series. I have four books
                that are finished now; well, the Shariyat is a continued writing, but I've got
                three books actually." So Doug, where's book three? If it wasn't finished why
                didn't Harold go to the Astral Library to finish it?"

                Paul wrote a number of the first chapters to book three. I think he got to chapter three or four. That's as far as it has gotten. I think that Harold thought about completing book three but for some reason decided it wasn't his place to do so. I would be surprised if Harold ever finishes book three, or tries to. But you would have to ask him if you wanted to know.

                You wrote: "Was the "Moon Virus" that Twitchell warned of a myth or a self-promotional lie, or did he make an erroneous assumption or was it just conjecture (page 234 of "Difficulties")? Show me where Kirpal Singh's name is used with Sudar Singh's?"

                I have no idea where Paul got the idea of the Moon Virus from. He certainly used
                it to gain some news. It is similar in some ways to the HIV virus in the way it
                has stumped the scientists, but I have heard no connection to the moon.

                Here is the first quote of Paul's where he mentions Sudar Singh, from the
                January 1964 Orion magazine:

                "I began my study of bilocation under the tutelage of Satguru Sudar Singh, in
                Allahabad, India. Later, I switched to Sri Kirpal Singh of old Delhi. Both
                were teaching the Shabda Yoga, that which is called the Yoga of Sound Current. I
                had to learn to leave my body at will and return, without effort..."


                Here is another quote from my book:

                "I have since found two other early articles of Paul's, that show the same
                thing: An article that ran in early 1966 called, Can You Be In Two Places At The
                Same Time?, shows Sudar Singh, from Allahabad, India, along with Bernard of
                England, a Self-Realization Swami who has a retreat in Maryland, Kirpal Singh of
                Delhi, India, and Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan monk.



                "The second article was called, The God Eaters, and ran in the November 1964
                issue of The Psychic Observer. In the article Paul talks about Rebazar Tarzu
                [sic], who he "made contact with...through bilocation," and Kirpal Singh as his
                teachers. These examples clearly show that both Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs
                were referred to, side by side with Kirpal Singh. It was not until late 1966
                before Paul suddenly stopped referring to Kirpal Singh."



                You wrote: "You mention that you talked to Patti Simpson and basically she says
                it was "funny" how Paul would evade giving out information on himself. You wrote
                that Paul tried to leave information blank "when it came to filling out official
                forms," but found that, "they would gladly accept whatever he wrote whether it
                was right or wrong." In truth, Paul intentionally lied and mislead people.
                Ironically, this is one "fact" that you have supplied to help prove the validity
                of David Lane's claim! This is also proof that you don't even listen to your own
                words! Perhaps, this is because your conscious subjective (self) is to evade,
                and your unconscious objective Self (God-Soul) is to impart truth."


                If you want to imagine that, go ahead. I think there is a big difference between
                someone who is intentionally trying to mislead people about their age, and a
                person who refuses to give out their age. But if you want to say that both are
                technically lies, that's fine with me. It seems to me that you are just trying
                to make it look like something it isn't.

                Remember, the picture that David painted is that Paul lied to Gail about his
                age, as he had lied about his age his whole life. In fact, Gail knew perfectly
                well that Paul wasn't giving out his age, and so did everyone else. Pretty
                different picture if you ask me.

                Here's a similar example. David was accused of copyright infringment many years
                ago (ironic, isn't it?). It was over a book written about J R Hinkins group.
                Under oath he said one thing. In his deposition, also under oath, he said the
                opposite. The judge politely said that his testimony was untrustworthy. David
                claims that he was not trying to lie, he just didn't remember it correctly.
                However, the testimony shows that the first story he told seemed like the one
                that would best help his case. Later it turned out to be exactly the wrong
                thing, so when asked the same question in court, he answered the opposite way.
                He lost his case over this.

                Would you call that lying? David doesn't. I'll take David's word for it that he
                just forgot, even though it looks otherwise. I guess that's just how I am.

                You wrote: "Doug you have imagined facts through your own distorted belief
                system of myth being reality. You seem to be confused as you spread confusion to
                others (somewhat like Typhoid Mary).You have no idea of what fact or truth is
                because you are unable to hear truth."

                Mighty big claims. Why not just show me the quotes where you think I'm off base
                and share how you see it? Why imagine that I am unable to see truth?

                I'm sure I see it differently than you do. But I have few illusions about Paul.
                My point was to show how many illusions that David had, while claiming
                otherwise. Ford's book has got them now, too, since he was taken in by David's
                story. The irony is that those who are most concerned about pointing out the
                lies and illusions of others are often just as unwilling to admit and correct
                their own.

                However, if you feel that I've made any errors, please point them out. David
                caught a few, and I immediately corrected them. I would like to make my book as
                accurate as possible, and I'm in the process of making another edit to include
                the latest information, since we are always learning new things.

                Thanks for asking specific questions. More of this would make a real dialogue worthwhile. And I am glad to share the specific evidence behind my comments if anyone is
                interested.

                Doug.



                Degar
                02/08/2004
                Top

                Be The Now!!



                If you are a follower of the Clear Light and Silent Sound, then you follow the
                natural order of who you really are as Beingness. The secret between the truth
                and the lie, is intention. Intention is the prime mover of awareness. How many
                really see themselves as the observer and the observed, the now, the present.
                Look only to the temple within yourself, no church, building or outer temple
                will ever point the way. In fact remove or demolish all these objects of glory,
                pride and self righteousness for in the heart of the now resides the gift.
                "Remind all those that show you the way to the false temple of mortar and brick
                that you have out grown their cage and See now with the Spiritual eye only
                Truth."

                NO RELIGION can hold GOD to a given doctrine! Even the doctrine of Light and
                Sound…..

                Freedom can not be bound and Freedom will destroy all that try to hold it.

                Man is a funny creature, he seeks the company of the one and only primal cause
                even until death. He is even willing to kill to be near to it. He believes that
                distance exists between himself and his Maker and he must make a journey back to
                the Godhead. Knock, knock, is anyone home? Soul exists because it is GOD. God
                has never posed the question, "I love Soul". Your Higher Self JUST IS, no more
                - no less.

                Wake up!

                Dance, Sing and Be.

                "All thing must pass away" – George Harrison

                Hold on to the social consciousness if you must but as Ford and Gram are saying
                they only opened the door you must walk through and see Freedom for yourself. Not their
                truth, but yours.

                After the Temple of Eck was built, I made a number of visits to it. On one of my
                visits I noticed that the temples main entrance floor was cracked right down the
                middle. Eckankar had it repaired, so no one had any idea what had happened. If
                that had occurred in my life, I would have asked what Spirit was saying to me?
                Well I did….. What it told me was that the office(ORG) and the temple
                side(Spiritual) had a major division between them. Another way of seeing it was
                that the true teachings of Eck were no longer within the organization.

                Fear is the last thing to go…… Pure awareness of consciousness can only be
                experienced without fear.

                The events unfolding before us have the blessing of the Holy Order of the World
                Adepts or it would not be.

                This is not an end to something, but more of a beginning.

                Degar *




                Kermit
                02/08/2004
                Top

                Solipsist Reprieve: My Story -- Why I Left Eckankar



                Soul, if It exists, could have entered into the agreement to share the Eckankar
                dream. The purpose may have been for spiritual experience: to advance
                spiritually and learn to be of service in a better and higher way and to
                consciously learn a few other things, like the nature of illusion and deception.
                But if I believe that soul exists, then I am asking for another round of belief
                lessons. I had spiritual experiences, but how do I know that they are real now?
                All I know is that I am here now and even those two adverbs are suspect.

                Now it is the age of Aquarius and the Piscean age is over. Some astrologers say
                that the religions of the intercessor between man and God were an aspect of the
                Piscean phase. It is a strong aspect of the Aquarian age that the veils of the
                intercessors be lifted. And it implies a dark night for the wizard who commands
                his followers to "ignore that man behind the curtain." It is a bright day for
                expose' writers. Since reading the book, I have seen other works that expose
                Christianity and Judaism. All the political books are pointing out lies told by
                the governments and the other party and the history books. For the Christians
                out there: your version of "Confessions" may be the works of Timothy Freke and
                Peter Gandy. Lies and damn lies. All religions are of the cloth of deception,
                regardless of whose face is on the master.

                So it appears that Eckankar has decided to maintain its position as a spiritual
                middle school. We all saw this coming, felt it in many ways and Ford
                articulated it for our minds in a way that we could no longer ignore. We knew
                about David Lane and some of the plagiarism years ago and chose to forgive it.
                We wondered why Rebazar couldn't appear for a TV spot, if he was so physical.
                We were uncomfortable about Darwin being written out of history. The
                restrictive guidelines.

                When I went to receive my fifth initiation, the internal phrase kept repeating:
                "The bloom is off the rose. . . the bloom is off the rose." I wondered what
                that meant, but the meaning is emerging. The days of believing in Santa Clause
                are past. Time to take the next step in becoming emancipated. Joseph Campbell
                said that his studies gave him an overview of the myths and religions that
                precluded his having any spiritual experiences himself. It is like the old
                saying that he who carved the Buddha cannot worship it.

                But I had just finished the book and was casting about and asked spirit if it
                was true. The image of an animated Rebazar peered headfirst into my inner
                vision and then started to mirror every movement I made. I had never had an
                experience with him, but the message was that I was doing it and so I might as
                well quit struggling against the curriculum. "No more Mother Goose stories for
                you and you can pretty much forget about the tooth fairy," it told me.

                Now I suspect why Harold is always telling fairy tales. I see an image now of
                Paul laughing, after telling his audience that only a handful of them would
                understand what he was trying to say. What if he was trying to say that only
                deception exists in the world of illusion? Is Harold hinting that the teachings
                are a fairy tale used to teach a different lesson?

                Masters and lying liars do not come clean. But there may be more to this
                learning than is apparent. What if Harold had told us that he had discovered
                the truth about the whole sham and just said,

                "Well, you can call me Harold or you can call me Gerald, but you doesn't have to
                call me Sri anymore." Would that have been masterful? I do not know, but he
                didn't say that. He built a temple instead.

                One of the wake-up calls for me was an Ask-the-Master session for RESAs in one
                of the recent books. Those guys didn't know anything. They were asking
                questions and Harold was describing worlds and temples and I would like to think
                that RESAs should have been able to access that information themselves, if the
                path was working.

                But no mastership is happening here. With Eckankar producing only two and a
                half masters in almost 38 years, I was starting to worry that I wasn't on the
                short list, anyway. We're all better than we were and we are better public
                speakers, but that is not what we came for.

                We came onto the path because it promised mastership/enlightenment. One of the
                unspoken truths is that we don't have a chance of reaching it by way of
                Eckankar. It has been boiling us like frogs: slowly. By the time we have been
                around long enough to know that no one is going to go beyond the 8th initiation,
                except one guy, our minds are no longer independent enough to get that this path
                to mastership is not working and it not going to work.

                Now we have talked ourselves out of a way of life. Harold would probably say we
                have talked ourselves into a Dark Night of Soul. But that's the kind of beating
                we would be in for if we stayed around.

                I took a class with a lot of law enforcement types at one time. They said that
                everyone, except the most committed sociopath, has a need to tell the truth.
                The body language, tonal patterns and eye movements combine with other
                unconscious clues to betray a lie or a concealed truth. One way to conceal and
                deceive is to tell nothing but lies like Kevin Spacey's character in "The Usual
                Suspects." This may be how Paul Twitchell did it. There is a book about this
                subject called "Telling Lies" by Paul Ekman. It has been staring at me from my
                bookshelf for years and it has gradually dawned on me that the title and author
                may contain a hint.

                My inner voice says that there is only the one I Am that smears itself across
                the living tapestry and reabsorbs itself after one lifetime or many. So this
                baby is going out with the bath water.

                Thanks for tipping the scales.

                Kermit



                Journey
                02/07/2004
                Top

                Reply to GPk: On Unloving Attitudes



                Dear GPk,

                As to your unloving and lack of understanding attitude, I based that on what you
                said, especially in regards to your unkind words to Usually Skeptical.
                You also seem to be putting down people who are posting here on this message
                board. You continue to direct negative comments to others on this site. You come
                across as a very angry person so I am not surprised that my comments bothered
                you so much. You confused me because you sound like you are still an Eckist in
                your attacks.

                You are wrong in assuming I'm stuck/holding on to the teachings of Eckankar. I
                was not a member that long, but I read all of Harold's transcripts and several
                other books, attended Satsang classes, etc. From the get-go, it seemed like a
                lot of double talk and confusing--lots of contradictions. Your postings also
                attack Ford in that you said he was going to become the leader of a new
                religion, that would be no different from any other group. I think you are the
                one hung up on Eckankar. I am glad you are reading Ford's book. Then, I think
                your comments here would be made with a better perspective, regardless of your
                take on Ford's writings.

                It is obvious that the only self awareness that you have ever achieved has been
                of the little self. You seem to be still experiencing the brain washing of
                Eckankar. The comments that you have made indicate that you are only aware of
                the little self, rather than the higher self. Your initiation did not give you
                self-realization. This is the flaw I see in your reasoning. But this is all
                understandable because of the length of time you spent in the Eckankar
                organization--you have more to dump than I do. There is a massive amount of
                flawed concepts along with certain truths that have been mixed to such a degree
                that it is almost impossible to decipher it all. In addition to anger, there is
                fear that there is no truth out there--that you will not be able to find it.
                This is, perhaps, the root of your negativity that you have lashed out on this
                site. This is my understanding.

                Also, I have not touted the degree of my spirituality as you have. I am only a
                Truth Seeker.

                Best regards and good reading,
                Journey



                Willy
                02/07/2004
                Top

                FS Response To Ecki99 Plus 2 Laws



                Thanks for the thorough response to the questions raised by Ecki99 and others.
                As one other book (Christian Bible) often quoted notes "by their fruits ye shall
                know them". Why do so many Eckists see the activities of HCS and former
                members of Eckankar as a threat? There are no lawsuits filed, there are no
                media exposes, there is just the statement of spiritual truths as experienced by
                those who have taken the next step. There is no massive attempt to force Eck
                chelas to leave their path, if that is where they are comfortable. To each his
                own.

                Harold has made much of Richard Maybury's two laws namely:

                1. Do all you say you will do. (Your word is your bond, honor it.)
                2. Do not encroach on others or their property. (Respect the integrity of
                others.)

                I really like these two laws, since they contain so much of spiritual truth in
                so few words. And this world would surely be a much better place if they were
                practiced by more people as individuals, by nations, and by spiritual paths.
                Perhaps the organization of Eckankar and its leaders should consider how well
                they are honoring these two laws, especially in regard to former members and
                also in regard to current members.




                FS
                02/07/2004
                Top

                Response to Eckie_99: The Real Impact of Eckankar Mythology and The Role of HCS




                Dear eckie_99

                I may be starting to look predictable with the way I present my views to this
                website, but, as many of the questions put to this site are in defence of
                eckankar mythology, then one way of replying to these questions is to use the
                very mythology that is being defended in order to express the truer side of
                eckankar, the side the mahanta does not want to be seen. This reply therefore
                will be no exception. I feel sure that this will meet with your approval.,
                seeing as I am using the constructed, contrived, compilations of the master
                compiler, one Paul Twitchell.

                I quote your own words:

                b. A Person who builds a framework that can help people grow spiritually, and
                shows it to the world, to be judged on its own merits.

                There is one point that you have failed to address in your defence of eckankar
                being a framework that can help people grow, and that is, `The growth of people
                spiritually within the framework of eckankar is dependant on Harold's acceptance
                as to what he sees as spiritual growth, or more accurately stated, what he is
                prepared to accept as `Truth.' I will therefore show to the world, and to you,
                another side of how this framework of eckankar really operates in helping the
                individual grow spiritually, and let the world judge it on its own merits.
                Firstly, let the world see some of the teachings of eckankar that will be
                relevant to this reply.

                ME: This is a false premise.
                Klemp plays the role of a
                hypnotist and magician.
                Any "spiritual growth" is
                made by the individual
                and despite Klemp's
                interference via codependency.

                Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and the tests
                given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears. Every Spiritual
                Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela to call upon the Master.
                If the vision fails to reply then it is false".

                Shariyat, book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                "Be on guard, lest he who seeks without the Vi-Guru finds those who only appear
                as the Holy One, claiming to be angels, or saints. Let none deceive the chela.
                If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be deceived by the kal
                Niranjan. If he has not the armour of Spirit, he can be misled".

                Shariyat, book 1, page 149. Third Printing 1972:
                "The ECKist knows that the presence of the Living ECK Master is always with
                him. He is never alone".

                What is presented here to the world, and yourself , is the truth of my own
                experience while within this framework of eckankar and its leader, the mahanta.
                Here is part of my letter to Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of recorded
                inner experiences that was sent to him while following this framework of
                eckankar, that you say, " can help people grow spiritually",

                "All that is contained within the journal has withstood the tests of the secret words that are required to be used to prove their validity and all that you are about to read, I stand by as true."

                Now friend, let the world see what the teachings of eckankar say about the inner
                experiences of a chela and how they are viewed within this framework.

                "The Shariyat book 2, pages 50-51: Second Edition 1988:
                "No ECK Master will acknowledge his appearance to another person. This is
                neither modesty nor is it a feeling of hiding something; in a sense he is
                letting the individual decide for themselves whether it was really him. He
                wants them to decide if it was reality. In this way he is not telling, nor
                confirming his presence with them in the Atma Sarup, but allowing them the
                independence of knowing and understanding whether it was actually him.

                If a person makes up his mind that the living ECK Master really appeared to him,
                then he knows it and this cannot be taken away from him, regardless. However,
                if he has to be told that it was the ECK Master, then he is always in doubt, for
                it was an outside source which gave him his information and not himself. It is
                superficial knowledge and not from his own inner source.

                He must always remember that the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master is not the one
                to tell him of his inner experiences, nor whether the ECK Master has appeared to
                him. But he must know this with a faith that is beyond anything that he has
                experienced and, therefore, it will stay with him. Otherwise it may fade in
                time, and the experiencer soon forgets whether it was really the ECK Master".

                Now let the world see the reply from the leader of this framework of eckankar
                that helps the individual to grow spiritually.

                Reply from Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of inner experiences while a
                chela under his claimed protection as the mahanta.

                "In response to your letter and journal of inner experiences which led you to
                think you have received the Rod of Eck Power. You have not.

                Your instincts were right not to believe this. The Kal misled you."

                Let it be explained to the world, and your own good self, that there was never
                any claim made to me having had received the rod of eck power, only that it was
                a possibility. Therefore, before we go any further, Harold Klemp is wrong in
                his statement. Now we must look at his other words, those of `The Kal Misled
                You`. Now friend, after being told I was misled by the kal, even though I have
                Harold's assurance that, `If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be
                deceived by the KAL Niranjan.`. he then fails to explain how this could have
                happened and failed to give any further guidance as to what I could do to
                prevent it happening again, although as we can see by the promise of this
                framework, I should never have been misled in the first place.

                Having now told me I was mistaken, Harold then goes on to lay the karmic
                responsibility upon me for being responsible for leading others off the path of
                eck.

                "This happens more often than one would care to believe. People who fall for
                this trick and mislead others off the path of eck become responsible for the karma."

                Let the world and yourself take note of these words, for we are told something
                very interesting here; "This happens more often than one would care to believe."
                Are not these words very thought provoking? Is Harold admitting that being
                misled by the kal while within this framework of eckankar,and, having his
                protection of the Vi-Guru, being misled by the kal is a common occurance? If
                this is so, then the claimed protection of the vi-guru must be failing to work.
                Not only that, the secret words must also be failing. Let the world see what
                eckankar has to say about the protection of its secret words:

                Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and the tests
                given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears. Every Spiritual
                Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela to call upon the Master.
                If the vision fails to reply then it is false".

                Let it go on record that the visions within the journal's inner experiences did
                reply and that I used the Word, and Words as is asked of the chela. Some of
                these words being Sugmad, Wah Z, HU, Mahanta, or any of the names of the masters
                of the vairagi.

                Here I think we should let the world know just how important this figure of the
                mahanta, the vi-guru really is, otherwise they may not fully realise just how
                powerful the mahanta truly is?

                Shariyat book 2 page 196. Second Edition 1988:
                "The eck works are the most powerful in this world; and the mahanta, the living
                eck master, who is the vehicle and channel for the eck, is the most powerful
                being within the physical world, as well as the planets and all the planes
                within the worlds of God."

                Shariyat, book 1 says on page 81. Third Printing 1972:
                "He is stronger than any man in intellect or spirit, for he has unlimited
                power, and yet this strength is combined with the noble virtues of the humble
                and gentle. All people find in him inspiration for the development of noble
                character".

                Shariyat, book 2 page 184 Second Edition 1988:
                "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master has other titles. He is the Godman, the
                Vi-Guru, the Light Giver, protector of the poor, the king of heaven, saviour of
                mankind, the scourge of evil, and the defender of the faithful. He is the real
                and only power in all the universes of God. No one can harm him without his
                consent, for all that is done to him is given permission by the ECK, with his
                consent".

                To help further my spiritual growth within this framework of eckankar, the
                mahanta now goes on to say:

                "As a spiritual discipline you are put back to the First Circle of initiation
                and are to stand aside from all eck duties for the present."

                We can show the world that this is also against what the framework of eckankar
                teaches:

                Dialogues With The Master page 172:
                First Printing 1990 "Remember this that those who demand respect and love of
                others to themselves are only exercising the negative or attracting power. The
                true teachings do not discipline in any way; do not set up duties or
                difficulties or tasks for teaching their disciples."

                This framework also tells the world, and its followers, that the teacher will
                bring about any changes needed within a chela without any pain or difficulties.


                Illuminated Way Letters 1966-1971 page 54 Copyright 1975 by Gail Twitchell
                Gross:

                "It is doubtful that the teacher will sit with his chela and discuss any
                character faults of the aspirant. Hardly ever will the teachers tell anyone
                what is wrong with himself, but he will concentrate on the error and bring about
                the change from the inner to the outer world, without pain or difficulty to the
                chelas, very often without the chela having any conscious awareness of it."

                Dear friend, and the world. I am fully aware of what this framework of eckankar
                has done to me, I am also fully aware of what this framework has done to many
                others, and this is the reason why the framework of the H.C.S. was brought
                about. It was brought about to help those who have suffered the injustice of
                eckankar at the hands of its mythological mahanta and to give them support and
                a free voice.

                We can now look to another aspect of this frameworks teachings, if not its
                practice, that of calling upon the master when the chela finds themselves in any
                difficulty:

                I was now left with no other recourse to attain further guidance other than to
                write to the mahanta at the physical level. As yet, nothing has been given. Now
                for the eckankar apologists they can say, "Get It On The Inner", but, and this
                is very very very important, how can the individual `Get It On The Inner` when
                the mahanta has just told the individual that all they have received on the
                inner is the misleadings of the kal? That the chela has the right to call upon
                the mahanta is given in the frameworks teachings. Not only has the chela the
                right to call upon the mahanta, but the mahanta is bound by his duty to answer
                each and every call of this nature. Let the world see the following exhibit:


                Illuminated Way Letters, 1966-1971, PAGE 130 Copyright 1975 by Gail Twitchell
                Gross:

                "Whenever the chela experiences any difficulty with himself such as
                falling into the negative trap, or even with Soul Travel, he should call upon
                the Master to assist him, or conduct him as the soul traveller to the spiritual
                worlds. For the Living ECK Master is bound by his mission to answer each and
                every call of this nature".


                Let it go on record, that the mahanta has failed in his duty, both to give the
                inner protection that his framework promises to give, and that he has also
                failed to assist a chela when called upon to do so. Now the world can see what
                the framework of eckankar says about a master failing in his duty:

                Shariyat, book 2, page 219. Second Edition 1988:
                "If he falters or fails; it is possible that he may be taken out of this
                position; and if he falters in his responsibility while serving as the Mahanta,
                the Living ECK Master, it is possible that he must step down for another to take
                his place".

                Unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to let all see the contents of my journal and
                come to their own understanding, and, unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to
                answer any questions that others may wish to ask. The framework of the H.C.S.
                has provided this facility for openness and free speech, the framework of
                eckankar has provided only threats to those who voice dissension and doubt.

                Shariyat, book 1, page 91. Third Printing 1972:
                "To ridicule, to scorn, to speak mockingly of the word of the Mahanta, and not
                to have faith in him and the cause of ECK is to bring woes on the advocator of
                doubt. It brings his karmic progress to a halt, increases his incarnations in
                this world, and causes him to suffer untold hardships".

                Even if a chela, or chela's tries to broach a question that is not wanted by the framework of eckankar and its leader, its teachings provide a guidance for the party faithful of how to view this dissesion within the ranks.

                Shariyat, book 2, pages 25-26. Second Edition 1988:
                " It must be remembered that all complaints and all arguments against the ECK,
                which are directed at the Mahanta, are the works of the Kal. Such assaults on
                the Mahanta are those which originate from the Kal using the minds and
                consciousness of those persons within its power to destroy the Mahanta and the
                ECK, if at all possible. These are the works of the Kal, who uses religion,
                ministers, and lay persons to bring about the downfall of the ECK, because it is
                the truth. There will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and disguise
                themselves under the robes of the ECK, but they are prophets with false faces
                who are lying to the ECKist`s , but few if any who are true followers of the ECK
                are ever deceived by these agents of the Kal".

                What Harold Klemp and the eckankar organisation have chosen to ignore is that
                truth, a truth that can be proven, is not an assault upon the mahanta, it is an
                assault upon that which is untrue. If Harold Klemp as the mahanta and the
                eckankar organisation see, and feel, that this as an assault upon them, then it
                can only be because they have something to hide. Truth knows no fear, so why
                does the framework of eckankar hide behind a wall of silence, instead of making
                a stand upon its proclaimed truth in order to defend the truth of the sugmad and
                its faithful followers?

                Let those who have the eyes to see and the ears to ear reach their own verdict
                from the `Facts` provided by the framework of eckankar itself , and its
                application of its teachings by the mahanta. `By Their Actions Ye Shall Know
                Them`

                Dear friend, and the world, I rest my case.



                Usually Skeptical
                02/07/2004
                Top

                Response to eckie_99: I Took Your Test and Got An "A" !



                Dear ekie,

                Well, I looked at your test questions and have the answers... !.)

                1.)
                Q- What is more ethically incorrect?
                A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold

                2.)
                Q- Who is less truthful?
                A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold (that was just like #1!)

                3.)
                Q- Who is spiritually more developed?
                A- "C" Those who are not afraid to see and hear truth

                4.)
                Q- What is a bigger spiritual crime?
                A- "C" Not to give people the opportunity to know and choose truth over lies

                That wasn't so hard after all... was it!

                I graded it myself and got 100% correct!

                Usually Skeptical

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that
                rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"
                >
                > Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for
                complete context.)
                >
                > To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a
                long post though.
                >
                > (1)
                >
                > Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:
                >
                > [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
                self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug
                Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a
                personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul
                was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of
                something like Dialogues With The Master.
                >
                > The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs.
                Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something
                like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar
                Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic.
                This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was
                amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it
                today.
                >
                > So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard
                anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was
                news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left
                it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would
                run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.
                >
                > It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep
                impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the
                tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying
                something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush."
                [... .]
                >
                > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm
                >
                > (2)
                >
                > July 2001:
                >
                > "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my
                invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]
                >
                > Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't
                David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that?
                Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in
                its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar
                Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]
                >
                > http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25
                >
                > (3)
                >
                > July 2003:
                >
                > Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most
                part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant
                fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar
                to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his
                part ???
                >
                What are your on that stuff ?

                > I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact
                that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means
                this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the
                words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word
                for word from Rebazar Tarzs.

                > As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back
                at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He
                influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start
                writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and
                just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees
                that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it
                looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a
                spin-off.

                > It's all a matter of perspective.

                > I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked
                them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very
                similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also
                writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The
                Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's
                students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.

                > On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote
                this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm
                glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his
                popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about
                that. - Doug.
                >
                > http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz
                >
                > (4) February 2004:
                >
                > "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I
                can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers
                words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying
                them? Yes. [....]"
                >
                > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
                >
                > (5)
                >
                > March 2007:
                >
                > [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book,
                Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?

                > Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he
                trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?

                > I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The
                River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have
                taken The Far Country as something different.

                > So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of
                art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were
                fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust
                issue for them.

                > I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much
                more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual
                teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.

                > These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I
                always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was
                trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.

                In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave
                the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really
                like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write
                about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later,
                wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts
                are not exactly right?
                >
                > http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Prometheus,
                > >
                > > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It gives me peace
                of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank you for being such a wise
                soul.
                > >
                > > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that
                rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? The circus of
                eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder
                it is to believe that it can stand as an organization. It appears like a house
                of cards. Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and
                do you think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their
                membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event. Any ideas?
                > >
                > > Thanks
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                (Revisited)
                > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hello Janice and All,
                > > Interesting. I think I'll
                > > share some comments
                > > to your insights below.
                > >
                > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                > > "Prometheus,
                > >
                > > Now that is very interesting.
                > >
                > > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before
                I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a
                good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I
                was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a
                word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                > >
                > > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I
                felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half
                awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male
                voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like
                figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the
                foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back.
                It did.
                > >
                > > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being
                a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more
                so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed
                the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                > >
                > > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term
                relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me
                yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming
                an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                > >
                > > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                > > many of us have had similar
                > > experiences of being attacked
                > > by negative entities and having
                > > to defend ourselves. In this case
                > > your RESA was, also, one of these
                > > negative beings. Too bad you
                > > couldn't protect yourself from
                > > them, but it's deceptive when
                > > one has placed trust in a RESA
                > > by assuming they are always
                > > positive and always on your side.
                > > They are as closed minded and
                > > defensive as is any religionist
                > > when protecting their dogma
                > > from too much scrutiny.
                > >
                > > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it
                attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the
                things I would not read as a<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
              • etznab@aol.com
                What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug Marman s use of the word facts . In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my
                Message 7 of 14 , May 6, 2012
                  What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug
                  Marman's use of the word "facts".

                  In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my questions
                  about Rebazar Tarzs on a.r.e. - it seemed to me that in some respects
                  "facts" were somehow "secondary" to spiritual experience.

                  I thoiught about the a.r.e. thread last night trying to fathom what
                  Doug was saying about Paul's stories and things said (some of them) not
                  based on facts. And frankly, it still didn't jive with me. Off hand I
                  can remember at least two places where Paul Twitchell illustrated that
                  Rebazar Tarzs "told him" what to write. In one place (I believe)
                  Rebazar Tarzs comes to Paul's room, wakes him up, tells him to take up
                  the pencil and write. (I'm referring to Dialogues With The Master and
                  The Far Country.) So how can Doug suggest those were Paul's words based
                  on a spiritual experience?
                  Paul wrote (in so many words) that Rebazar Tarzs came and materialized
                  in his room, and in one instance (I believe) the mattress sank from the
                  weight of R.T. sitting on it.

                  It would be nice if everybody didn't go away, all those Eckists on the
                  newsgroups, and if the string of dialogues could continue today. I say
                  this because there is a lot more information and examples available to
                  share where many of "Paul's words" read as plagiarized from various
                  books by other authors - none of them by the name of Rebazar Tarzs, or
                  other Eck masters.

                  ***

                  "They" didn't succeed at booting me from a.r.e., and I didn't "move on"
                  as once suggested. To the contrary I continued to research the FACTS -
                  whether anybody likeed it or not - and have reams of examples (which
                  can be illustrated and verified by REAL evidence and FACTS) about many
                  of the things people were chewing on and debating over for years before
                  I arrived. Some of the examples I (and others) have since found are
                  those that not even David Lane was aware of (I'm talking about examples
                  of Paul's writings compared with other authors) and I think probably
                  that Doug Marman was unaware of.

                  So new information has come in since the D.L. / D.M. debates, etc. New
                  FACTS are now known. How facts can be important in one instance and
                  something else in another ... I am not sure what Doug was talking
                  about.

                  I recall from the newspapers that sometimes when something happens that
                  embarrasses the government and people want to know who is responsible -
                  such as torture of prisoners, etc. - those higher up in the ladder
                  have responded with things like: The first time I heard about it was
                  from the news / newspaper. Iow, people claim ignorance and that they
                  didn't know about something until it became public via the news. Well,
                  to admit otherwise - and that they did know about it (and for a long
                  time) - would be damning to them and public opinion would have them on
                  a spike!

                  Now I recall that (for some reason) Harold Klemp doesn't use the
                  Internet. I'm sure he reads the newspapers and watches the news, but
                  how much about the trove of FACTS regarding Paul's writings compared
                  with other authors - INCLUDING REBAZAR TARZS - is in the newspapers, or
                  on the evening news? (Maybe it should be?) Much of the new information
                  and research has been put on the Internet. That's where it is (also in
                  some books). And even there, we've probably all seen how apologists can
                  argue against certain information being true, try to marginalize people
                  and their research, even to the extent of suggesting (in so many words)
                  that facts don't matter. Or, it's not about facts.

                  Well, I've seen where it looks like people want to have it both ways.
                  Facts matter. Facts don't matter. As far as research goes, and besides
                  the stories of "spiritual experiences" that people send in, When was
                  the last time the Eckankar website posted something about people doing
                  real research into the stories told by Paul Twitchell? (Not to mention
                  "research" about the stories sent in by Eckists today?) It was 1984
                  when Harold came out with all that stuff about Paul Twitchell and when
                  Harold did research. I wonder if they continue to research, or if (for
                  some reason) it stopped a long time ago?

                  Oh yeah, I remember it now.

                  "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
                  researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
                  turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to say
                  that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I [Doug
                  Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the records.
                  Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past, which
                  Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough study.
                     
                  "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
                  about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
                  further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and worked
                  for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early days.
                  So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [....] A few
                  months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
                  began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
                  share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
                  anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
                  unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
                  see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [....]"

                  [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]

                  "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                  Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                  1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                  Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                  Singh, who is not the same person at all.
                  "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                  whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                  all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                  more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                  initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                  "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                  just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                  report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                  Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

                  [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                  Harold Klemp - see link]

                  http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

                  They got reports? Hmm ... then maybe I should send in a report? :)

                  I could give other examples where it looks like Eckankar is interested
                  in stories from other people, including what people found by research.
                  Apparently though, the LEM. isn't going to simply look at the Eck-Vidya
                  and share answers to all of the questions people have. At the same time
                  though, it looks like people pick and choose from all the information
                  only what "THEY WANT" the facts to be and put the rest under the rug.

                  If one disregards the reported facts written by Paul Twitchell
                  concerning his meetings, encounters, and relationships with Eck Masters
                  then where does it leave you? In Never Never Land with Peter Pan and
                  Tinker Bell, etc.? (Hey look! He's playing a flute!)

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverland

                  Are "spiritual experiences", the "stories" (and the stories that people
                  send in) somehow more REAL than factual accounts which can be
                  researched and verified? Or, Are "spiritual experiences" sometimes used
                  as a label for anything a person wants to be true? Iow, does the land
                  of make believe trump the actual facts? This is what it comes down to,
                  IMO.

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sat, May 5, 2012 10:57 pm
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                  (Revisited)

                   
                  BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus:

                  A Calm And Peaceful Message For All

                  Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is
                  being typed.
                  I have really been for the most part enjoying the dialogue on this
                  message board.

                  I would like to encourage Doug Marman to continue posting here. I think
                  gradually
                  we can all learn something that will help us move toward a greater
                  understanding.

                  We can do this together regardless of religious belief and possibly
                  emerge in
                  a place with no fences. I have many friends from different beliefs and
                  something
                  I have noticed in the last 10 years or so is that our differences don't
                  separate
                  us as much as they used to. There is a coming together of sorts and a
                  move
                  towards higher conciousness.

                  I have seen this come about through heartfelt sharing of ideas.

                  ***A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still an Eckist?

                  I send all who read this my love

                  Freeman

                  Joey Ward
                  02/09/2004
                  Top

                  Thanks Doug

                  Thank you very much for the reply to the 5 questions that I asked of
                  you. Also thanks for
                  looking through Paul Twitchell's writings and finding the same thing
                  that I found out about
                  Paul not using the term MAHANTA until January 1969. It means a lot to
                  me that you answered that question I ask a while back. I join Eckankar
                  because the Mahanta was the highest state of consciousness in this
                  world and in the inner worlds so said Paul Twitchell the 971st MAHANTA
                  (the title he gave himself). I still wonder why Paul would say such a
                  thing. To me this is the biggest lie that any person could say. To make
                  up a line of Mahanta Masters, (highest state of consciousness and God
                  made flesh) what was Paul thinking of. O' well !!! I guess the next
                  time I see Paul in the astral library I will give him a kick in the
                  pants.

                  Thanks Doug,
                  Joey Ward

                  PS..... Doug, next time you see Harold, could you tell him that Joey
                  would like to see Him
                  start posting on The Truth Seeker Bulletin Board. It sure would be
                  grand of Harold to do so.
                  Thanks again for your help.

                  Seeker For The Last Time
                  02/08/2004
                  Top

                  Another X`Eckist Story

                  I joined Eckankar in the early 80's, attracted partly because of their
                  concept of Soul Travel
                  and left in the mid-90's. I had become a 3rd Initiate by that time.
                  Because of my outspoken
                  aggressive remarks and asking too many questions about concealed facts
                  about the organization, many wondered why the LEM had allowed me to
                  reach that level.

                  Initiations and secret words and the idea that we need a Master, mean
                  nothing to me
                  in this life because in my different existences I was connected to many
                  of these concepts.
                  There were times I needed these secret words and initiations and a
                  Master and for those
                  who need them now, it is OK. It is something many have to experience,
                  if not in this lifetime,
                  in a different one.

                  In the mid-80's, I posted a few remarks on ARE. This was a good lesson
                  for me, because
                  some of the die-hard ECKists attempted to attack me with their "sword
                  from the Sugmad"
                  and "weed me out of the garden of ECK." I had no grudge against them
                  because I knew
                  they would learn to open their minds. At the time, they believed in
                  what they did and
                  that it was the right thing for them to do. I accepted it.

                  I hadn't been on ARE for a long time but a few weeks ago I was impelled
                  to go on it
                  and out popped the information concerning Ford Johnson's book. In the
                  past, ECKist
                  would say it was the ECK or LEM. I ordered the book, which I am
                  enjoying now.
                  It brought back some memories of Eckankar.

                  I was very surprised to see some of the die-hard and long-standing
                  ECKists,including
                  High Initiates, especially Nathan. This was a shock and it takes a lot
                  to shock me. I am
                  very happy for Nathan because we had communicated in the past. Nathan
                  would make
                  a very high class lawyer in this life(have no idea what he does). Boy,
                  did he swing that
                  sword for Eckankar. He left nothing standing. But that was then and now
                  is now. I am
                  happy, Nathan that you allowed yourself to open and move beyond the
                  garden of ECK.
                  There is so much more to learn.

                  To some Eckankar is still a beautiful garden and I can respect that. I
                  would like to stress
                  that I have nothing against Eckankar and similar religions. They may be
                  needed for souls
                  to grow.

                  I enjoyed reading the comments on this board..and I'll be back when I
                  have time.

                  I'll sign off with the name I used to use on ARE - Seeker, for the last
                  time.

                  Doug Marman
                  02/08/2004
                  Top

                  A Few Responses

                  I've received a number of comments to my last post.

                  I will respond to some of the questions and comments.

                  To Degar:

                  I agree with you that no church, book or religion can replace the part
                  of us
                  that knows. We also both agree on the importance of fearlessness in
                  seeing
                  truth, and the importance of teachings with heart.

                  My lights are fine, as are yours.

                  To Joey Ward:

                  I don't do yes or no questions, but I will try to keep my answers
                  short:

                  1. Did Paul Twitchell have the highest state of consciousness as the
                  Godman
                  as he told the world through his writings?

                  I don't know how anyone could say who was highest or who is even higher
                  than another.
                  So, I would never say such a thing, myself. I don't even think having
                  the highest state
                  of consciousness should be anyone's goal. A person can gain a high
                  state of consciousness
                  and be unable to make a living here in the physical. That's not very
                  useful.

                  2. Does Harold Klemp have the highest state of consciousness as the
                  Godman
                  as he is telling the world throught his writings?

                  Same as above, however, I will add this. I agree with the Sufis who say
                  that there is
                  what they call The Pole of The World. The Sufi teacher Ibn al' Arabi
                  points out that this
                  same principle applies at every level of human affairs. Another Sufi
                  put it this way:
                  "Just as there is someone who acts as the pole for the whole of
                  humanity, so there
                  are poles for every faith, community, occupation - even down to the
                  level of towns."

                  We sense when we are near such people since they seem to represent and
                  carry the
                  whole of the town or company or faith that they are a part of. Every
                  age has those
                  who carry the whole of things for the world at every level. We connect
                  to that whole
                  through their vision.

                  However, I don't believe in saying who the Pole of the World is, since
                  everyone needs
                  to find this out for themselves. In fact, in most times through history
                  the Pole of The
                  World was hidden. The Sufis say this as well.

                  3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?

                  Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes.

                  4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters
                  names on them
                  as if the Eck Master were saying them?

                  Yes.

                  5. Who do you Trust to tell the truth about Spiritual truths? Pick
                  one only. [Names omitted]

                  I see all teachings as mines. The good ones are gold mines, but they
                  all need to be sorted
                  through to find the pure gold. I have found no outer teachings that are
                  pure gold.

                  The only place to test the gold is within ourselves, when we try to use
                  it in our lives.

                  You might point to an outer person. I would rather point to our inner
                  knowingness
                  to recognize truth. We often do pick it up from others, however.

                  To Journey:

                  You asked: "If you are not trying to undermine Ford and his book
                  "Confessions of a God Seeker," why did you give such a negative opinion
                  about the book in The Chanhassen Villager last November?"

                  If you read my comments to the Chanhassen Villager, just like in my
                  last post, it is focused
                  on the errors in what David Lane has reported and the unfortunate fact
                  that Ford repeated
                  these as if they were facts as David did. I am absolutely amazed at how
                  far the distortion
                  of truths from David Lane has spread. I was disappointed that the
                  newspaper had not done
                  better research, and that Ford had not as well, especially since David
                  Lane himself suggested
                  to Ford that he study my book more thoroughly to see what had been
                  discussed via the Internet.

                  I am just as amazed at how quickly and completely people assume that I
                  am some kind
                  of pawn in a battle or fighting some kind of war against Ford for
                  pointing out the errors.
                  I guess this goes to show how far off perceptions of someone else's
                  motivations can be.
                  People will imagine what my motivations are, but they are a million
                  miles from the mark.

                  I do agree that some people like to win their arguments no matter what,
                  and since I have
                  no interest in that, this is exactly why I have said I would say no
                  more about such things
                  unless folks here were interested. From the responses I've seen, there
                  doesn't seem to be
                  much interest in what I was writing about.

                  I think you are right that we should all look at our motivations. I
                  have certainly done so and
                  have tried only to offer help in clearing up some of the confusions
                  that have been going on
                  for a while by getting to the facts. I have tried to stay far from
                  criticizing anyone else's beliefs, although I do think some friendly
                  dialogue in this area is good.

                  I think it is just as important to look at the motivations for bringing
                  up my personal motivations. I have not questioned Ford's motivations,
                  nor would I. I think his intentions are sincere. Getting stuck over
                  another person's so-called intentions is often the way our Censor stops
                  us from seeing another person's point of view fairly.

                  When we get so attached to our cause, anyone who says anything that
                  appears to interfere
                  with our cause becomes or enemy. The motivations of our enemies are
                  always wrong
                  in our minds. Ask them and they would say the same about their enemies.

                  It is a sad fact that public dialogue over religious matters is almost
                  impossible these days.
                  This was not true in America during its early days. Public dialogue was
                  often lively and contentious, but never came to people disowning their
                  neighbors or rejecting their families and friends like it does today.

                  As far as I am concerned, we are all friends here with a common
                  interest in Spiritual Truth.
                  That is how I see it. And we will each decide for ourselves what is
                  true, as we should.

                  To DD:

                  You wrote: "You spend all of your time chipping away at the edges of
                  the argument,
                  finding miniscule points of contention (a minor date discrepancy here,
                  a location there)
                  but not once do you address the underlying core truth that is being and
                  has been expressed
                  here from the very beginning."

                  Exactly right. So why is everyone getting so worked up about it? Why is
                  no one simply
                  acknowledging the minor points and letting it go? These are not core
                  truths, just a matter
                  of correcting errors in fact.

                  No, I don't agree that my "can't we all get along" message doesn't help
                  us get at the truth.
                  In fact, let me say it this way: If we can not listen to those who see
                  things differently than
                  we do, then we will never see Truth. This doesn't mean we should all
                  agree, but it certainly
                  does mean that we should be able to hold respectful and friendly
                  conversations with those
                  who have a different way of seeing things. We should be open to
                  learning from others.

                  You wrote: "Your method is to find a few unimportant discrepancies and
                  use them
                  as an attempt to discredit the entire revelation of overall truth
                  discovered."

                  This is incorrect. I am only trying to point out the errors. I am not
                  trying to discredit
                  the entire message. But clearly, after we have seen the facts for what
                  they are, the
                  overall picture does change somewhat. That's natural.

                  Since so many of David Lane's claims are in fact not based on facts at
                  all, but merely
                  on imagined intentions and speculations, I have also offered other
                  possible interpretations.
                  My point is not that David's guesses are wrong and mine are right, but
                  simply to show how
                  widely interpretations can vary when there are no facts.

                  You are the one who is painting a picture of black and white, not I. I
                  don't see David
                  or Ford as all wrong, nor as all right. I say let's find the gold
                  wherever we look.
                  Why blame anyone for the fact that everything they offer is not pure
                  gold?

                  Lastly, you suggest that I am defending a teaching and that I am an
                  apologist.
                  Okay, perhaps I am. I don't feel that is what I am doing, but I can see
                  it would look
                  that way to you. But surely you see that your comments are the same.
                  You are also
                  defending your beliefs. In fact, everyone who has responded to my post
                  on this
                  bulletin board has picked at what I would call minor, technical details
                  and completely
                  avoided my points. This doesn't mean you or anyone else here is any
                  less sincere,
                  does it?

                  To Nacal:

                  You asked: "Where do you ever give a reference or a quote from your
                  sources?"

                  They are in my book, and have been thoroughly discussed on
                  alt.religion.eckankar
                  and can be found in the records there. I would be glad to present them
                  here as well,
                  if anyone was interested.

                  You asked: "Why have you returned without answering the questions posed
                  to you
                  by site members in previous postings? When did Twitchell first write
                  about the mahanta?
                  Was it 1969 as one site member has stated?"

                  I answered last time that I had just moved to a new home and my files
                  were still packed
                  in boxes. They are still packed in boxes, but a few are handy so I
                  pulled out Paul's old
                  Wisdom Notes and Illuminated Way Letters.

                  You seem to be right. Paul didn't use the word, Mahanta, until the
                  January 1969 Illuminated
                  Way Letter and the February 1969 Wisdom Note. Before then he mainly
                  used, The Master, Spiritual Traveler, Teacher, etc. Not even the
                  mention of Living ECK Master very often, although Outer Master and
                  living Master were mentioned often.

                  This is interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

                  You wrote: "You are also being untruthful when you say that you, "…
                  have no
                  desire to interfere with the beliefs of anyone."

                  And how would you know that? You seem to know my own desires and
                  intentions
                  better than I do. Clearly I will need to ask you next time what my
                  intentions and
                  desires are.

                  This is foolishness. Do you realize how hard it is to know the desires
                  of your own children?
                  How often do parents misunderstand what their children are trying to
                  do? Have you never had this happen to you when you were a child? Yet
                  you think you can actually guess my desires, when you don't even know
                  me? Have we even met?

                  Why do people spend so much time imagining they KNOW the intentions of
                  those they
                  disagree with?

                  I see this with ECKists just as often as with David Lane and the group
                  here. So, I'm not picking on this group. I see it as a real trap and an
                  excuse to justify rejecting what another person has to say.

                  You wrote: "You also claim to "have enjoyed the conversations on this
                  bulletin board" and yet
                  you only respond to selective questions."

                  That's right. That was what I came here to share, after Ford claimed
                  that I was not after the kind of truth that could be discussed openly
                  and that my book was not about encouraging open dialogue. I came here
                  for just that kind of dialogue, but guess what? No one here wants to
                  discuss the facts or the errors openly.

                  If I were Ford, I would care enough to make sure the facts I was using
                  were accurate.
                  I thought, especially as a lawyer, he would want to know.

                  You wrote: "You attempt to confuse (like Paul and Harold) by twisting
                  and abusing truth
                  in order to blind the reader with your distortions and illusions of
                  reality."

                  If you really believe this, then why not point out a quote where you
                  feel this is what I am attempting to do, rather than making broad
                  accusations about my motivations? Why not just address directly what
                  what I am saying and point out how you see it differently? I have no
                  intention of twisting the truth in anyway at all.

                  You wrote: "Is what Harold's teaches (Eckankar) a myth?

                  "Since I brought the subject up can you tell me if the Holocaust was a
                  myth or not?

                  "Some things ARE black and white so just give a yes or no answer to the
                  previously mentioned two questions. Please, no long-winded explanation,
                  yes or no to each question."

                  Sorry, I don't do yes or no answers, but I'll be glad to discuss your
                  questions. Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught about Eckankar is a
                  myth. Yes, I think a lot of what people think about the Holocaust is
                  made up of myth as well. This doesn't mean that the Holocaust didn't
                  happen, or that many of the stories or facts are lies. It just means
                  that people often try to simplify things.

                  History is largely made up of myth. There are a million personal
                  individual stories about World War II, for example, yet the history
                  books treat it as one thing that happened. The people who go through it
                  don't see it the way the history books do. They were there, but the
                  myths are what we can deal with to understand. Otherwise it is too
                  complex.

                  You wrote: "Doug, instead of focusing on David Lane or Ford's book
                  let's now focus on the writings of Twitchell and Klemp and see where we
                  can find inaccuracies, or is the world still flat to you? Did you like
                  the posting from the May-June-July 1971 Mystic World about Twitchell?
                  "No one really knows for sure where he came from, when he was born, or
                  if his true name is even Paul Twitchell. How long he has been on this
                  Earth planet is not known." Or, how about this quote from the same
                  article, "Paul is known to the world as Peddar Zaskq, which is his real
                  name, is an occidental." Wasn't this also his name for his last
                  incarnation and his spiritual name?"

                  Obviously we now know where he came from and was born (Paducah,
                  Kentucky) and that his true name was not Paul Twitchell, but was John
                  Paul Twitchell. We also now know when he was born (1909). Paul
                  certainly didn't ever talk about these things, nor would he answer
                  questions about them directly, and I think he liked the idea that his
                  past was mysterious, and he helped to create this mysterious past. Yes,
                  Paul is only known to the world as Peddar Zaskq because he told the
                  world that was his spiritual name.

                  And yes, this is the kind of writing that is mythological. Did you
                  think I would say something else?

                  You went on: "Let's now go back up to the preceding paragraph since you
                  seem to claim to like "facts" (why don't you give your sources?). "But
                  it is a fact that his Master Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan lama,
                  who appears to be in his early forties, was a young man when Columbus
                  discovered America." Now, was that really a "fact," or a delusional
                  belief, or a deliberate lie? Or, is it that, "There is a need of the
                  people to believe in the magic of a saviour, and Sri Paul Twitchell
                  knows this and acts out the part" (same article)."

                  It certainly is no fact, since there are no records nor anything else
                  to prove that Rebazar Tarzs even exists, never mind how old he really
                  is. However, there is no proof that it is a lie, either. It certainly
                  sounds far-fetched. But I don't think the belief in saints, saviors and
                  spiritual teachers comes from the desire to believe in magic. I think
                  it comes from the innate memory within Soul that there is a truth and
                  meaning to life that most of the world seems to have forgotten, but
                  some remember.

                  As Rumi once said, the reason that false gold is so popular is because
                  there is such a thing
                  as real gold.

                  Of course, mixed with this is that many people want a father figure, or
                  want someone to take
                  care of them and tell them what is right and wrong.

                  You wrote: "The sad thing is that there is no freedom in religion…
                  there is only control through the use of fear and surrender of the
                  common sense of having an open mind, and of course, the dangled carrot
                  of initiation and hope."

                  It certainly seems that way. To me, without freedom there is no point
                  to a spiritual teaching. It is simply a social group. There is more
                  peer pressure and more influence from the people who want everyone to
                  be harmonious rather than speaking honestly, than control from above,
                  but in general I agree with you.

                  You wrote: "Paul states, "Ramaji was one of the first initiates in the
                  ancient Order of the Vairagi." It seems Paul has a problem spelling his
                  name. "Ji" is a Hindu suffix used to denote respect and affection. But,
                  Paul is not speaking of Rama."

                  Why do you think that Paul is referring to someone different than Rama?
                  The Hindus often add the "ji" to the end of a name, and sometimes it is
                  written with only the "j". Take the name Shamus-i-Tabriz. Generally
                  this is spelled, Shams of Tabriz. Same person. Jalalludin Rumi is
                  spelled dozens of ways. Sometimes he is also called Mevlana. Same
                  person. Sometimes it is written Shabda Yoga, sometimes Shabd Yog.
                  Sometimes Yoga is spelled Joga. I interpret this quote from Paul to be
                  referring to the same person as Rama, but if you feel otherwise I would
                  find it interesting to hear why.

                  You asked: "By the way, why has Harold evaded giving his birth date and
                  age?"

                  I don't know. Probably because it is a personal fact that has nothing
                  to do with his role. But maybe it is just a hold-over from Paul. You
                  would have to ask him. My guess is that he doesn't want people holding
                  birthday parties because of his birthdate.

                  You wrote: "Also, why is it Doug that on page 282 that Harold, the
                  mahanta, doesn't even know today about an experience he had in1970. He
                  states, "Was he really an ECK Master? Who can say?" Shouldn't the
                  Master who is greater than the God of all religions know such things?"

                  I would have to read the whole quote in context. It sounds to me as if
                  Harold is asking a rhetorical question. In other words, who can say if
                  he was a Master then?

                  Actually the question I ask is how did Darwin know that he was the
                  Mahanta, or how does Harold know this? Isn't this like any initiate who
                  might think they have gained the next initiation? Isn't this the same
                  question? How do they really know?

                  You ask: "Are the initiations in Eckankar valid as a means to greater
                  spiritual growth over those who are non-eckists? Or, is this a myth
                  too?"

                  I think the initiations are a mixed bag. There is definitely reality to
                  them, from my personal experience. But they have become filled with
                  myths as well. I can tell you that real Self-Realization is rare, HI or
                  not. The initiation level doesn't prove anything. It is more meaningful
                  as a personal matter than a comparison to others. I don't think anyone
                  should be judging another person's worth or truth by what initiation
                  level they are at. Including the Master.

                  You asked: "Paul states on page 136 of Difficulties Of Becoming The
                  Living ECK Master, "Cause with all of that, see, I write books in
                  series. I have four books that are finished now; well, the Shariyat is
                  a continued writing, but I've got three books actually." So Doug,
                  where's book three? If it wasn't finished why didn't Harold go to the
                  Astral Library to finish it?"

                  Paul wrote a number of the first chapters to book three. I think he got
                  to chapter three or four. That's as far as it has gotten. I think that
                  Harold thought about completing book three but for some reason decided
                  it wasn't his place to do so. I would be surprised if Harold ever
                  finishes book three, or tries to. But you would have to ask him if you
                  wanted to know.

                  You wrote: "Was the "Moon Virus" that Twitchell warned of a myth or a
                  self-promotional lie,
                  or did he make an erroneous assumption or was it just conjecture (page
                  234 of "Difficulties")? Show me where Kirpal Singh's name is used with
                  Sudar Singh's?"

                  I have no idea where Paul got the idea of the Moon Virus from. He
                  certainly used it to gain some news. It is similar in some ways to the
                  HIV virus in the way it has stumped the scientists, but I have heard no
                  connection to the moon.

                  Here is the first quote of Paul's where he mentions Sudar Singh, from
                  the January 1964 Orion
                  magazine:

                  "I began my study of bilocation under the tutelage of Satguru Sudar
                  Singh, in Allahabad, India. Later, I switched to Sri Kirpal Singh of
                  old Delhi. Both were teaching the Shabda Yoga, that which is called
                  the Yoga of Sound Current. I had to learn to leave my body at will and
                  return, without effort..."

                  Here is another quote from my book:

                  "I have since found two other early articles of Paul's, that show the
                  same thing: An article that ran in early 1966 called, Can You Be In Two
                  Places At The Same Time?, shows Sudar Singh, from Allahabad, India,
                  along with Bernard of England, a Self-Realization Swami who has a
                  retreat in Maryland, Kirpal Singh of Delhi, India, and Rebazar Tarzs, a
                  Tibetan monk.

                  "The second article was called, The God Eaters, and ran in the November
                  1964 issue of The Psychic Observer. In the article Paul talks about
                  Rebazar Tarzu [sic], who he "made contact with...through bilocation,"
                  and Kirpal Singh as his teachers. These examples clearly show that both
                  Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs were referred to, side by side with
                  Kirpal Singh. It was not until late 1966 before Paul suddenly stopped
                  referring to Kirpal Singh."

                  You wrote: "You mention that you talked to Patti Simpson and basically
                  she says it was "funny" how Paul would evade giving out information on
                  himself. You wrote that Paul tried to leave information blank "when it
                  came to filling out official forms," but found that, "they would gladly
                  accept whatever he wrote whether it was right or wrong." In truth,
                  Paul intentionally lied and mislead people. Ironically, this is one
                  "fact" that you have supplied to help prove the validity of David
                  Lane's claim! This is also proof that you don't even listen to your own
                  words! Perhaps, this is because your conscious subjective (self) is to
                  evade, and your unconscious objective Self (God-Soul) is to impart
                  truth."

                  If you want to imagine that, go ahead. I think there is a big
                  difference between someone who is intentionally trying to mislead
                  people about their age, and a person who refuses to give out their age.
                  But if you want to say that both are technically lies, that's fine with
                  me. It seems to me that you are just trying to make it look like
                  something it isn't.

                  Remember, the picture that David painted is that Paul lied to Gail
                  about his age, as he had lied about his age his whole life. In fact,
                  Gail knew perfectly well that Paul wasn't giving out his age, and so
                  did everyone else. Pretty different picture if you ask me.

                  Here's a similar example. David was accused of copyright infringment
                  many years ago (ironic, isn't it?). It was over a book written about J
                  R Hinkins group. Under oath he said one thing. In his deposition, also
                  under oath, he said the opposite. The judge politely said that his
                  testimony was untrustworthy. David claims that he was not trying to
                  lie, he just didn't remember it correctly. However, the testimony shows
                  that the first story he told seemed like the one that would best help
                  his case. Later it turned out to be exactly the wrong thing, so when
                  asked the same question in court, he answered the opposite way. He lost
                  his case over this.

                  Would you call that lying? David doesn't. I'll take David's word for it
                  that he just forgot, even though it looks otherwise. I guess that's
                  just how I am.

                  You wrote: "Doug you have imagined facts through your own distorted
                  belief system of myth being reality. You seem to be confused as you
                  spread confusion to others (somewhat like Typhoid Mary).You have no
                  idea of what fact or truth is because you are unable to hear truth."

                  Mighty big claims. Why not just show me the quotes where you think I'm
                  off base and share how you see it? Why imagine that I am unable to see
                  truth?

                  I'm sure I see it differently than you do. But I have few illusions
                  about Paul. My point was to show how many illusions that David had,
                  while claiming otherwise. Ford's book has got them now, too, since he
                  was taken in by David's story. The irony is that those who are most
                  concerned about pointing out the lies and illusions of others are often
                  just as unwilling to admit and correct their own.

                  However, if you feel that I've made any errors, please point them out.
                  David caught a few, and I immediately corrected them. I would like to
                  make my book as accurate as possible, and I'm in the process of making
                  another edit to include the latest information, since we are always
                  learning new things.

                  Thanks for asking specific questions. More of this would make a real
                  dialogue worthwhile.
                  And I am glad to share the specific evidence behind my comments if
                  anyone is interested.

                  Doug.

                  Degar
                  02/08/2004
                  Top

                  Be The Now!!

                  If you are a follower of the Clear Light and Silent Sound, then you
                  follow the natural order of who you really are as Beingness. The secret
                  between the truth and the lie, is intention. Intention is the prime
                  mover of awareness. How many really see themselves as the observer and
                  the observed, the now, the present. Look only to the temple within
                  yourself, no church, building or outer temple will ever point the way.
                  In fact remove or demolish all these objects of glory, pride and self
                  righteousness for in the heart of the now resides the gift. "Remind all
                  those that show you the way to the false temple of mortar and brick
                  that you have out grown their cage and See now with the Spiritual eye
                  only Truth."

                  NO RELIGION can hold GOD to a given doctrine! Even the doctrine of
                  Light and Sound…..

                  Freedom can not be bound and Freedom will destroy all that try to hold
                  it.

                  Man is a funny creature, he seeks the company of the one and only
                  primal cause even until death. He is even willing to kill to be near to
                  it. He believes that distance exists between himself and his Maker and
                  he must make a journey back to the Godhead. Knock, knock, is anyone
                  home? Soul exists because it is GOD. God has never posed the question,
                  "I love Soul". Your Higher Self JUST IS, no more
                  - no less.

                  Wake up!

                  Dance, Sing and Be.

                  "All thing must pass away" – George Harrison

                  Hold on to the social consciousness if you must but as Ford and Gram
                  are saying they only
                  opened the door you must walk through and see Freedom for yourself. Not
                  their truth, but yours.

                  After the Temple of Eck was built, I made a number of visits to it. On
                  one of my visits I noticed that the temples main entrance floor was
                  cracked right down the middle. Eckankar had it repaired, so no one had
                  any idea what had happened. If that had occurred in my life, I would
                  have asked what Spirit was saying to me? Well I did….. What it told me
                  was that the office(ORG) and the temple side(Spiritual) had a major
                  division between them. Another way of seeing it was that the true
                  teachings of Eck were no longer within the organization.

                  Fear is the last thing to go…… Pure awareness of consciousness can only
                  be experienced
                  without fear.

                  The events unfolding before us have the blessing of the Holy Order of
                  the World Adepts
                  or it would not be.

                  This is not an end to something, but more of a beginning.

                  Degar *

                  Kermit
                  02/08/2004
                  Top

                  Solipsist Reprieve: My Story -- Why I Left Eckankar

                  Soul, if It exists, could have entered into the agreement to share the
                  Eckankar dream. The purpose may have been for spiritual experience: to
                  advance spiritually and learn to be of service in a better and higher
                  way and to consciously learn a few other things, like the nature of
                  illusion and deception. But if I believe that soul exists, then I am
                  asking for another round of belief lessons. I had spiritual
                  experiences, but how do I know that they are real now? All I know is
                  that I am here now and even those two adverbs are suspect.

                  Now it is the age of Aquarius and the Piscean age is over. Some
                  astrologers say that the religions of the intercessor between man and
                  God were an aspect of the Piscean phase. It is a strong aspect of the
                  Aquarian age that the veils of the intercessors be lifted. And it
                  implies a dark night for the wizard who commands his followers to
                  "ignore that man behind the curtain." It is a bright day for expose'
                  writers. Since reading the book, I have seen other works that expose
                  Christianity and Judaism. All the political books are pointing out
                  lies told by the governments and the other party and the history books.
                  For the Christians out there: your version of "Confessions" may be the
                  works of Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. Lies and damn lies. All
                  religions are of the cloth of deception, regardless of whose face is on
                  the master.

                  So it appears that Eckankar has decided to maintain its position as a
                  spiritual middle school. We all saw this coming, felt it in many ways
                  and Ford articulated it for our minds in a way that we could no longer
                  ignore. We knew about David Lane and some of the plagiarism years ago
                  and chose to forgive it. We wondered why Rebazar couldn't appear for a
                  TV spot, if he was so physical. We were uncomfortable about Darwin
                  being written out of history. The restrictive guidelines.

                  When I went to receive my fifth initiation, the internal phrase kept
                  repeating: "The bloom is off the rose. . . the bloom is off the rose."
                  I wondered what that meant, but the meaning is emerging. The days of
                  believing in Santa Clause are past. Time to take the next step in
                  becoming emancipated. Joseph Campbell said that his studies gave him
                  an overview of the myths and religions that precluded his having any
                  spiritual experiences himself. It is like the old saying that he who
                  carved the Buddha cannot worship it.

                  But I had just finished the book and was casting about and asked spirit
                  if it was true. The image of an animated Rebazar peered headfirst into
                  my inner vision and then started to mirror every movement I made. I
                  had never had an experience with him, but the message was that I was
                  doing it and so I might as well quit struggling against the curriculum.
                  "No more Mother Goose stories for you and you can pretty much forget
                  about the tooth fairy," it told me.

                  Now I suspect why Harold is always telling fairy tales. I see an image
                  now of Paul laughing, after telling his audience that only a handful of
                  them would understand what he was trying to say. What if he was trying
                  to say that only deception exists in the world of illusion? Is Harold
                  hinting that the teachings are a fairy tale used to teach a different
                  lesson?

                  Masters and lying liars do not come clean. But there may be more to
                  this learning than is apparent. What if Harold had told us that he had
                  discovered the truth about the whole sham and just said,

                  "Well, you can call me Harold or you can call me Gerald, but you
                  doesn't have to call me Sri anymore." Would that have been masterful?
                  I do not know, but he didn't say that. He built a temple instead.

                  One of the wake-up calls for me was an Ask-the-Master session for RESAs
                  in one of the recent books. Those guys didn't know anything. They
                  were asking questions and Harold was describing worlds and temples and
                  I would like to think that RESAs should have been able to access that
                  information themselves, if the path was working.

                  But no mastership is happening here. With Eckankar producing only two
                  and a half masters in almost 38 years, I was starting to worry that I
                  wasn't on the short list, anyway. We're all better than we were and we
                  are better public speakers, but that is not what we came for.

                  We came onto the path because it promised mastership/enlightenment.
                  One of the unspoken truths is that we don't have a chance of reaching
                  it by way of Eckankar. It has been boiling us like frogs: slowly. By
                  the time we have been around long enough to know that no one is going
                  to go beyond the 8th initiation, except one guy, our minds are no
                  longer independent enough to get that this path to mastership is not
                  working and it not going to work.

                  Now we have talked ourselves out of a way of life. Harold would
                  probably say we have talked ourselves into a Dark Night of Soul. But
                  that's the kind of beating we would be in for if we stayed around.

                  I took a class with a lot of law enforcement types at one time. They
                  said that everyone, except the most committed sociopath, has a need to
                  tell the truth. The body language, tonal patterns and eye movements
                  combine with other unconscious clues to betray a lie or a concealed
                  truth. One way to conceal and deceive is to tell nothing but lies like
                  Kevin Spacey's character in "The Usual Suspects." This may be how Paul
                  Twitchell did it. There is a book about this subject called "Telling
                  Lies" by Paul Ekman. It has been staring at me from my bookshelf for
                  years and it has gradually dawned on me that the title and author may
                  contain a hint.

                  My inner voice says that there is only the one I Am that smears itself
                  across the living tapestry and reabsorbs itself after one lifetime or
                  many. So this baby is going out with the bath water.

                  Thanks for tipping the scales.

                  Kermit

                  Journey
                  02/07/2004
                  Top

                  Reply to GPk: On Unloving Attitudes

                  Dear GPk,

                  As to your unloving and lack of understanding attitude, I based that on
                  what you said, especially in regards to your unkind words to Usually
                  Skeptical.
                  You also seem to be putting down people who are posting here on this
                  message board. You continue to direct negative comments to others on
                  this site. You come across as a very angry person so I am not
                  surprised that my comments bothered you so much. You confused me
                  because you sound like you are still an Eckist in your attacks.

                  You are wrong in assuming I'm stuck/holding on to the teachings of
                  Eckankar. I was not a member that long, but I read all of Harold's
                  transcripts and several other books, attended Satsang classes, etc.
                  From the get-go, it seemed like a lot of double talk and
                  confusing--lots of contradictions. Your postings also attack Ford in
                  that you said he was going to become the leader of a new religion, that
                  would be no different from any other group. I think you are the one
                  hung up on Eckankar. I am glad you are reading Ford's book. Then, I
                  think your comments here would be made with a better perspective,
                  regardless of your take on Ford's writings.

                  It is obvious that the only self awareness that you have ever achieved
                  has been of the little self. You seem to be still experiencing the
                  brain washing of Eckankar. The comments that you have made indicate
                  that you are only aware of the little self, rather than the higher
                  self. Your initiation did not give you self-realization. This is the
                  flaw I see in your reasoning. But this is all understandable because of
                  the length of time you spent in the Eckankar organization--you have
                  more to dump than I do. There is a massive amount of flawed concepts
                  along with certain truths that have been mixed to such a degree that it
                  is almost impossible to decipher it all. In addition to anger, there is
                  fear that there is no truth out there--that you will not be able to
                  find it. This is, perhaps, the root of your negativity that you have
                  lashed out on this site. This is my understanding.

                  Also, I have not touted the degree of my spirituality as you have. I am
                  only a Truth Seeker.

                  Best regards and good reading,
                  Journey

                  Willy
                  02/07/2004
                  Top

                  FS Response To Ecki99 Plus 2 Laws

                  Thanks for the thorough response to the questions raised by Ecki99 and
                  others. As one other book (Christian Bible) often quoted notes "by
                  their fruits ye shall know them". Why do so many Eckists see the
                  activities of HCS and former members of Eckankar as a threat? There
                  are no lawsuits filed, there are no media exposes, there is just the
                  statement of spiritual truths as experienced by those who have taken
                  the next step. There is no massive attempt to force Eck chelas to
                  leave their path, if that is where they are comfortable. To each his
                  own.

                  Harold has made much of Richard Maybury's two laws namely:

                  1. Do all you say you will do. (Your word is your bond, honor it.)
                  2. Do not encroach on others or their property. (Respect the integrity
                  of others.)

                  I really like these two laws, since they contain so much of spiritual
                  truth in so few words. And this world would surely be a much better
                  place if they were practiced by more people as individuals, by nations,
                  and by spiritual paths. Perhaps the organization of Eckankar and its
                  leaders should consider how well they are honoring these two laws,
                  especially in regard to former members and also in regard to current
                  members.

                  FS
                  02/07/2004
                  Top

                  Response to Eckie_99: The Real Impact of Eckankar Mythology and The
                  Role of HCS

                  Dear eckie_99

                  I may be starting to look predictable with the way I present my views
                  to this website, but, as many of the questions put to this site are in
                  defence of eckankar mythology, then one way of replying to these
                  questions is to use the very mythology that is being defended in order
                  to express the truer side of eckankar, the side the mahanta does not
                  want to be seen. This reply therefore will be no exception. I feel sure
                  that this will meet with your approval., seeing as I am using the
                  constructed, contrived, compilations of the master compiler, one Paul
                  Twitchell.

                  I quote your own words:

                  b. A Person who builds a framework that can help people grow
                  spiritually, and shows it to the world, to be judged on its own merits.

                  There is one point that you have failed to address in your defence of
                  eckankar being a framework that can help people grow, and that is, `The
                  growth of people spiritually within the framework of eckankar is
                  dependant on Harold's acceptance as to what he sees as spiritual
                  growth, or more accurately stated, what he is prepared to accept as
                  `Truth`. I will therefore show to the world, and to you, another side
                  of how this framework of eckankar really operates in helping the
                  individual grow spiritually, and let the world judge it on its own
                  merits. Firstly, let the world see some of the teachings of eckankar
                  that will be relevant to this reply.

                  Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                  " Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and
                  the tests given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears.
                  Every Spiritual Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela
                  to call upon the Master. If the vision fails to reply then it is
                  false".

                  Shariyat, book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                  "Be on guard, lest he who seeks without the Vi-Guru finds those who
                  only appear as the Holy One, claiming to be angels, or saints. Let
                  none deceive the chela. If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he
                  cannot be deceived by the kal Niranjan. If he has not the armour of
                  Spirit, he can be misled".

                  Shariyat, book 1, page 149. Third Printing 1972:
                  "The ECKist knows that the presence of the Living ECK Master is always
                  with him. He is never alone".

                  What is presented here to the world, and yourself , is the truth of my
                  own experience while within this framework of eckankar and its leader,
                  the mahanta. Here is part of my letter to Harold Klemp in regards to my
                  journal of recorded inner experiences that was sent to him while
                  following this framework of eckankar, that you say, " can help people
                  grow spiritually",

                  "All that is contained within the journal has withstood the tests of
                  the secret words that are
                  required to be used to prove their validity and all that you are about
                  to read, I stand by as true."

                  Now friend, let the world see what the teachings of eckankar say about
                  the inner experiences
                  of a chela and how they are viewed within this framework.

                  "The Shariyat book 2, pages 50-51: Second Edition 1988:
                  "No ECK Master will acknowledge his appearance to another person.
                  This is neither modesty nor is it a feeling of hiding something; in a
                  sense he is letting the individual decide for themselves whether it was
                  really him. He wants them to decide if it was reality. In this way he
                  is not telling, nor confirming his presence with them in the Atma
                  Sarup, but allowing them the independence of knowing and understanding
                  whether it was actually him.

                  If a person makes up his mind that the living ECK Master really
                  appeared to him, then he knows it and this cannot be taken away from
                  him, regardless. However, if he has to be told that it was the ECK
                  Master, then he is always in doubt, for it was an outside source which
                  gave him his information and not himself. It is superficial knowledge
                  and not from his own inner source.

                  He must always remember that the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master is not
                  the one to tell him of his inner experiences, nor whether the ECK
                  Master has appeared to him. But he must know this with a faith that is
                  beyond anything that he has experienced and, therefore, it will stay
                  with him. Otherwise it may fade in time, and the experiencer soon
                  forgets whether it was really the ECK Master".

                  Now let the world see the reply from the leader of this framework of
                  eckankar that helps
                  the individual to grow spiritually.

                  Reply from Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of inner experiences
                  while a chela under
                  his claimed protection as the mahanta.

                  "In response to your letter and journal of inner experiences which led
                  you to think you have
                  received the Rod of Eck Power. You have not.

                  Your instincts were right not to believe this. The Kal misled you."

                  Let it be explained to the world, and your own good self, that there
                  was never any claim made to me having had received the rod of eck
                  power, only that it was a possibility. Therefore, before we go any
                  further, Harold Klemp is wrong in his statement. Now we must look at
                  his other words, those of `The Kal Misled You`. Now friend, after
                  being told I was misled by the kal, even though I have Harold's
                  assurance that, `If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be
                  deceived by the KAL Niranjan.`. he then fails to explain how this could
                  have happened and failed to give any further guidance as to what I
                  could do to prevent it happening again, although as we can see by the
                  promise of this framework, I should never have been misled in the first
                  place.

                  Having now told me I was mistaken, Harold then goes on to lay the
                  karmic responsibility upon me for being responsible for leading others
                  off the path of eck.

                  "This happens more often than one would care to believe. People who
                  fall for this trick and
                  mislead others off the path of eck become responsible for the karma."

                  Let the world and yourself take note of these words, for we are told
                  something very interesting here; "This happens more often than one
                  would care to believe." Are not these words very thought provoking? Is
                  Harold admitting that being misled by the kal while within this
                  framework of eckankar,and, having his protection of the Vi-Guru, being
                  misled by the kal is a common occurance? If this is so, then the
                  claimed protection of the vi-guru must be failing to work. Not only
                  that, the secret words must also be failing. Let the world see what
                  eckankar has to say about the protection of its secret words:

                  Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                  "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and
                  the tests given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears.
                  Every Spiritual Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela
                  to call upon the Master. If the vision fails to reply then it is
                  false".

                  Let it go on record that the visions within the journal's inner
                  experiences did reply and that I used the Word, and Words as is asked
                  of the chela. Some of these words being Sugmad, Wah Z, HU, Mahanta, or
                  any of the names of the masters of the vairagi.

                  Here I think we should let the world know just how important this
                  figure of the mahanta, the vi-guru really is, otherwise they may not
                  fully realise just how powerful the mahanta truly is?

                  Shariyat book 2 page 196. Second Edition 1988:
                  "The eck works are the most powerful in this world; and the mahanta,
                  the living eck master, who is the vehicle and channel for the eck, is
                  the most powerful being within the physical world, as well as the
                  planets and all the planes within the worlds of God."

                  Shariyat, book 1 says on page 81. Third Printing 1972:
                  "He is stronger than any man in intellect or spirit, for he has
                  unlimited power, and yet this strength is combined with the noble
                  virtues of the humble and gentle. All people find in him inspiration
                  for the development of noble character".

                  Shariyat, book 2 page 184 Second Edition 1988:
                  "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master has other titles. He is the
                  Godman, the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver, protector of the poor, the king
                  of heaven, saviour of mankind, the scourge of evil, and the defender of
                  the faithful. He is the real and only power in all the universes of
                  God. No one can harm him without his consent, for all that is done to
                  him is given permission by the ECK, with his consent".

                  To help further my spiritual growth within this framework of eckankar,
                  the mahanta now goes on to say:

                  "As a spiritual discipline you are put back to the First Circle of
                  initiation and are to stand aside from all eck duties for the present."

                  We can show the world that this is also against what the framework of
                  eckankar teaches:

                  Dialogues With The Master page 172:
                  First Printing 1990 "Remember this that those who demand respect and
                  love of others to themselves are only exercising the negative or
                  attracting power. The true teachings do not discipline in any way; do
                  not set up duties or difficulties or tasks for teaching their
                  disciples."

                  This framework also tells the world, and its followers, that the
                  teacher will bring about any changes needed within a chela without any
                  pain or difficulties.

                  Illuminated Way Letters 1966-1971 page 54 Copyright 1975 by Gail
                  Twitchell Gross:
                  "It is doubtful that the teacher will sit with his chela and discuss
                  any character faults of the aspirant. Hardly ever will the teachers
                  tell anyone what is wrong with himself, but he will concentrate on the
                  error and bring about the change from the inner to the outer world,
                  without pain or difficulty to the chelas, very often without the chela
                  having any conscious awareness of it."

                  Dear friend, and the world. I am fully aware of what this framework of
                  eckankar has done to me, I am also fully aware of what this framework
                  has done to many others, and this is the reason why the framework of
                  the H.C.S. was brought about. It was brought about to help those who
                  have suffered the injustice of eckankar at the hands of its
                  mythological mahanta and to give them support and a free voice.

                  We can now look to another aspect of this frameworks teachings, if not
                  its practice, that of calling upon the master when the chela finds
                  themselves in any difficulty:

                  I was now left with no other recourse to attain further guidance other
                  than to write to the mahanta at the physical level. As yet, nothing has
                  been given. Now for the eckankar apologists they can say, "Get It On
                  The Inner", but, and this is very very very important, how can the
                  individual `Get It On The Inner` when the mahanta has just told the
                  individual that all they have received on the inner is the misleadings
                  of the kal? That the chela has the right to call upon the mahanta is
                  given in the frameworks teachings. Not only has the chela the right to
                  call upon the mahanta, but the mahanta is bound by his duty to answer
                  each and every call of this nature. Let the world see the following
                  exhibit:

                  Illuminated Way Letters, 1966-1971, PAGE 130 Copyright 1975 by Gail
                  Twitchell Gross: "Whenever the chela experiences any difficulty with
                  himself such as falling into the negative trap, or even with Soul
                  Travel, he should call upon the Master to assist him, or conduct him as
                  the soul traveller to the spiritual worlds. For the Living ECK Master
                  is bound by his mission to answer each and every call of this nature".

                  Let it go on record, that the mahanta has failed in his duty, both to
                  give the inner protection that his framework promises to give, and that
                  he has also failed to assist a chela when called upon to do so. Now
                  the world can see what the framework of eckankar says about a master
                  failing in his duty:

                  Shariyat, book 2, page 219. Second Edition 1988:
                  "If he falters or fails; it is possible that he may be taken out of
                  this position; and if he falters in his responsibility while serving as
                  the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, it is possible that he must step
                  down for another to take his place".

                  Unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to let all see the contents of my
                  journal and come to their own understanding, and, unlike the mahanta,
                  I am prepared to answer any questions that others may wish to ask. The
                  framework of the H.C.S. has provided this facility for openness and
                  free speech, the framework of eckankar has provided only threats to
                  those who voice dissension and doubt.

                  Shariyat, book 1, page 91. Third Printing 1972:
                  "To ridicule, to scorn, to speak mockingly of the word of the Mahanta,
                  and not to have faith in him and the cause of ECK is to bring woes on
                  the advocator of doubt. It brings his karmic progress to a halt,
                  increases his incarnations in this world, and causes him to suffer
                  untold hardships".

                  Even if a chela, or chela's tries to broach a question that is not
                  wanted by the framework of
                  eckankar and its leader, its teachings provide a guidance for the party
                  faithful of how to view
                  this dissesion within the ranks.

                  Shariyat, book 2, pages 25-26. Second Edition 1988:
                  " It must be remembered that all complaints and all arguments against
                  the ECK, which are directed at the Mahanta, are the works of the Kal.
                  Such assaults on the Mahanta are those which originate from the Kal
                  using the minds and consciousness of those persons within its power to
                  destroy the Mahanta and the ECK, if at all possible. These are the
                  works of the Kal, who uses religion, ministers, and lay persons to
                  bring about the downfall of the ECK, because it is the truth. There
                  will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and disguise themselves
                  under the robes of the ECK, but they are prophets with false faces who
                  are lying to the ECKist`s , but few if any who are true followers of
                  the ECK are ever deceived by these agents of the Kal".

                  What Harold Klemp and the eckankar organisation have chosen to ignore
                  is that truth, a truth that can be proven, is not an assault upon the
                  mahanta, it is an assault upon that which is untrue. If Harold Klemp as
                  the mahanta and the eckankar organisation see, and feel, that this as
                  an assault upon them, then it can only be because they have something
                  to hide. Truth knows no fear, so why does the framework of eckankar
                  hide behind a wall of silence, instead of making a stand upon its
                  proclaimed truth in order to defend the truth of the sugmad and its
                  faithful followers?

                  Let those who have the eyes to see and the ears to ear reach their own
                  verdict from the `Facts` provided by the framework of eckankar itself ,
                  and its application of its teachings by the mahanta. `By Their Actions
                  Ye Shall Know Them`

                  Dear friend, and the world, I rest my case.

                  Usually Skeptical
                  02/07/2004
                  Top

                  Response to eckie_99: I Took Your Test and Got An "A" !

                  Dear ekie,

                  Well, I looked at your test questions and have the answers... !.)

                  1.)
                  Q- What is more ethically incorrect?
                  A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold

                  2.)
                  Q- Who is less truthful?
                  A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold (that was just like #1!)

                  3.)
                  Q- Who is spiritually more developed?
                  A- "C" Those who are not afraid to see and hear truth

                  4.)
                  Q- What is a bigger spiritual crime?
                  A- "C" Not to give people the opportunity to know and choose truth over
                  lies

                  That wasn't so hard after all... was it!

                  I graded it myself and got 100% correct!

                  Usually Skeptical

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"
                  <etznab@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                  admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"
                  >
                  > Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original
                  links/threads for complete context.)
                  >
                  > To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is
                  still a long post though.
                  >
                  > (1)
                  >
                  > Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online
                  book:
                  >
                  > [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
                  self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day
                  I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in
                  the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his
                  home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was
                  trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The
                  Master.
                  >
                  > The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by
                  Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely
                  sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was
                  mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a
                  discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I
                  can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and
                  I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.
                  >
                  > So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had
                  ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested,
                  told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I
                  told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes
                  I was sorting through, but I would run ho<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                • prometheus_973
                  Hello Etznab and All, Yes, as you ve pointed out (below) both Marman and Klemp have similar versions about the facts concerning Twitchell s fictional account
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 8, 2012
                    Hello Etznab and All,
                    Yes, as you've pointed
                    out (below) both Marman
                    and Klemp have similar
                    versions about the "facts"
                    concerning Twitchell's
                    fictional account of meeting
                    Rebazar Tarzs. Too bad
                    they overlooked Twitchell's
                    version, and the timeline
                    conflict, from his June,
                    1971 interviews which
                    are mentioned in "Difficulties
                    Of Becoming The Living
                    ECK Master":

                    [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]

                    "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                    Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                    1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                    Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                    Singh, who is not the same person at all.

                    "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                    whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                    all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                    more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                    initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                    "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                    just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                    report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                    Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

                    [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                    Harold Klemp - see link]

                    http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

                    ********************************

                    Fact: Twitchell was born on Oct. 22, 1908
                    (According to Harold Klemp).

                    Fact: Twitchell states on page 45 of "Difficulties:"
                    "Sudar Singh... He died, I believe, if I'm correct,
                    1937; could have been a year or two off someway
                    there, but it was approximately in that year he
                    passed away. We [Paul and his sister Kay-Dee]
                    stayed there almost a year and were shipped
                    home because our parents were screaming bloody-
                    murder, and then finally they cut our money off
                    and we were forced to return."

                    ME: PT is, basically, saying that at 15 years of
                    age this was his 1st trip to India. More "facts"
                    to prove this are listed later.

                    Fact: Harold Klemp attended and graduated
                    from a private Lutheran all boys school and
                    seminary.

                    Fact: Twitchell states on page 47 of "Difficulties"
                    "... the same thing occurs in the seminaries of
                    the Christian church. These Christian seminaries,
                    when you're training boys to grow up, they are
                    looking for all the things which will explain to
                    them manhood or the problems of life. It can
                    create sexual aberrations... you can walk around
                    the corner of one of the ashrams or the monasteries
                    and find the boys there abusing themselves." (pg 47)

                    ME: It's possible, according to Twitchell, that
                    this "abuse" contributed to Klemp's mental
                    break-down circa 1969-70.

                    Fact: Twitchell states on page 48 of "Difficulties:"
                    "After I had left India, came home, I was then about
                    sixteen, I had a year or so to do some work in order
                    to finish my degree."

                    ME: PT Born 1908, plus, age 15 equals 1923.

                    Fact: Twitchell states on page 70 of "Difficulties:"
                    "Well, anyway, in about 1947, it was right shortly
                    after the Indians nation, India received their freedom
                    from England and then became a nation, and they
                    had the great riots and that was over with. I went
                    over to Darjeeling in the east section of India.
                    Darjeeling is up in the northeast of India, right on
                    the Sikkim border.... I went up there at the time
                    after being over in Allahabad, and there wasn't
                    much left there after Sudar Singh had passed away."

                    FYI: [Actually PT changed Kirpal Singh's name to
                    Sudar Singh, and Kirpal died two years after Paul
                    in 1973]

                    PT: "But then I went there and I'd been told
                    that I would find the ECK Master Rebazar Tarzs.
                    I've got something about that in one of my books,
                    I think it's Introduction to ECK in which I have it...
                    I stayed there for quite some time with him, six
                    to seven months... Now, he initiated me there.
                    I had already been initiated by Sudar Singh, the
                    same as everybody else, the second initiation.
                    And then I got the third and the fourth. I went
                    up through about the seventh at this particular
                    time.

                    Then he moved across over into Kashmir,
                    up in the Hindu Kush Mountains, and later
                    [1951] but not on this trip, I followed him
                    up there and got the finish of my initiations."
                    [page 71]


                    Timeline of Facts:

                    1923 - PT claims that he and his sister met
                    Sudar in Paris and traveled with him to India.
                    This was PT's 1st trip to India at age 15 and
                    received his 1st and 2nd initiations from Sudar
                    Singh.

                    1935 - Harold Klemp (on Eckankar.org) states
                    that Twitchell, at age 27, was "exaggerating"
                    and "twisting facts" to get into "Who's Who in
                    Kentucky," and that Twitchell had never traveled
                    all that far from home.

                    1947 - PT claims he had his 2nd trip to India
                    (at age 35) and received his 3rd-7th initiations
                    from Rebazar while staying with him for six
                    to seven months.

                    1951 - PT claims he went back to India (his
                    3rd trip at age 39) and received the "finish"
                    of his initiations from Rebazar Tarzs.

                    Did Twitchell "finish" with a 9th or a 12th
                    initiation in 1951?

                    Fact: In any case, the 14th Mahanta was never
                    mentioned by Twitchell until January 1969.

                    Fact: Harold Klemp states on eckankar.org
                    that at age 27 (1935) that Twitchell was
                    "exaggerating" and "twisting facts" to get
                    into Who's Who in Kentucky and that PT
                    had never traveled all that far from home
                    as he was claiming.

                    Factual Conclusion:

                    Twitchell lied about going to India to
                    meet Sudar Singh at age 15, plus, he
                    lied about this in 1971 as the "Mahanta"
                    just months before his untimely death.

                    And, PT continued the lie with the story
                    of meeting Rebazar in 1947. He connected
                    that lie to the one about getting his 1st
                    and 2nd initiations from Sudar, in India,
                    at the age of 15.

                    Thus, the story about meeting Rebazar,
                    again, on a third visit, circa 1951, to
                    "finish" his initiations is also a fabrication
                    of truth! Paul couldn't help himself. PT
                    was a habitual liar and a narcissist, and
                    for Klemp to point that out just shows
                    that HK was not only ignorant of the
                    timeline, but isn't all that capable/aware
                    of connecting the dots.

                    Plus, after Twitchell, supposedly,
                    received the "finish" of his initiations,
                    in 1951, it took until 1969 [18 years!]
                    for Twitchell to mention the "Mahanta"
                    for the first time in an ECK publication.
                    This is more proof that Twitchell created
                    the Mahanta just as he created Rebazar
                    and the other ECK Masters... it's all
                    a big fat lie! Even the Sant Mat crap
                    that Twitchell copied and tweaked
                    is a false teaching.

                    These facts are the main reason this
                    book, "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                    Living ECK Master" will never ever be
                    reprinted.... without heavy handed
                    reediting.

                    Prometheus


                    etznab@... wrote:
                    >
                    > What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug
                    > Marman's use of the word "facts".
                    >
                    > In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my questions
                    > about Rebazar Tarzs on a.r.e. - it seemed to me that in some respects
                    > "facts" were somehow "secondary" to spiritual experience.
                    >
                    > I thoiught about the a.r.e. thread last night trying to fathom what
                    > Doug was saying about Paul's stories and things said (some of them) not
                    > based on facts. And frankly, it still didn't jive with me. Off hand I
                    > can remember at least two places where Paul Twitchell illustrated that
                    > Rebazar Tarzs "told him" what to write. In one place (I believe)
                    > Rebazar Tarzs comes to Paul's room, wakes him up, tells him to take up
                    > the pencil and write. (I'm referring to Dialogues With The Master and
                    > The Far Country.) So how can Doug suggest those were Paul's words based
                    > on a spiritual experience?
                    > Paul wrote (in so many words) that Rebazar Tarzs came and materialized
                    > in his room, and in one instance (I believe) the mattress sank from the
                    > weight of R.T. sitting on it.
                    >
                    > It would be nice if everybody didn't go away, all those Eckists on the
                    > newsgroups, and if the string of dialogues could continue today. I say
                    > this because there is a lot more information and examples available to
                    > share where many of "Paul's words" read as plagiarized from various
                    > books by other authors - none of them by the name of Rebazar Tarzs, or
                    > other Eck masters.
                    >
                    > ***
                    >
                    > "They" didn't succeed at booting me from a.r.e., and I didn't "move on"
                    > as once suggested. To the contrary I continued to research the FACTS -
                    > whether anybody likeed it or not - and have reams of examples (which
                    > can be illustrated and verified by REAL evidence and FACTS) about many
                    > of the things people were chewing on and debating over for years before
                    > I arrived. Some of the examples I (and others) have since found are
                    > those that not even David Lane was aware of (I'm talking about examples
                    > of Paul's writings compared with other authors) and I think probably
                    > that Doug Marman was unaware of.
                    >
                    > So new information has come in since the D.L. / D.M. debates, etc. New
                    > FACTS are now known. How facts can be important in one instance and
                    > something else in another ... I am not sure what Doug was talking
                    > about.
                    >
                    > I recall from the newspapers that sometimes when something happens that
                    > embarrasses the government and people want to know who is responsible -
                    > such as torture of prisoners, etc. - those higher up in the ladder
                    > have responded with things like: The first time I heard about it was
                    > from the news / newspaper. Iow, people claim ignorance and that they
                    > didn't know about something until it became public via the news. Well,
                    > to admit otherwise - and that they did know about it (and for a long
                    > time) - would be damning to them and public opinion would have them on
                    > a spike!
                    >
                    > Now I recall that (for some reason) Harold Klemp doesn't use the
                    > Internet. I'm sure he reads the newspapers and watches the news, but
                    > how much about the trove of FACTS regarding Paul's writings compared
                    > with other authors - INCLUDING REBAZAR TARZS - is in the newspapers, or
                    > on the evening news? (Maybe it should be?) Much of the new information
                    > and research has been put on the Internet. That's where it is (also in
                    > some books). And even there, we've probably all seen how apologists can
                    > argue against certain information being true, try to marginalize people
                    > and their research, even to the extent of suggesting (in so many words)
                    > that facts don't matter. Or, it's not about facts.
                    >
                    > Well, I've seen where it looks like people want to have it both ways.
                    > Facts matter. Facts don't matter. As far as research goes, and besides
                    > the stories of "spiritual experiences" that people send in, When was
                    > the last time the Eckankar website posted something about people doing
                    > real research into the stories told by Paul Twitchell? (Not to mention
                    > "research" about the stories sent in by Eckists today?) It was 1984
                    > when Harold came out with all that stuff about Paul Twitchell and when
                    > Harold did research. I wonder if they continue to research, or if (for
                    > some reason) it stopped a long time ago?
                    >
                    > Oh yeah, I remember it now.
                    >
                    > "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
                    > researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
                    > turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to say
                    > that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I [Doug
                    > Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the records.
                    > Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past, which
                    > Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough study.
                    > Â Â
                    > "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
                    > about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
                    > further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and worked
                    > for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early days.
                    > So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [....] A few
                    > months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
                    > began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
                    > share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
                    > anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
                    > unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
                    > see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [....]"
                    >
                    > [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
                    >
                    > "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                    > Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                    > 1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                    > Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                    > Singh, who is not the same person at all.
                    > "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                    > whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                    > all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                    > more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                    > initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                    > "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                    > just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                    > report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                    > Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."
                    >
                    > [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                    > Harold Klemp - see link]
                    >
                    > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training
                    >
                    > They got reports? Hmm ... then maybe I should send in a report? :)
                    >
                    > I could give other examples where it looks like Eckankar is interested
                    > in stories from other people, including what people found by research.
                    > Apparently though, the LEM. isn't going to simply look at the Eck-Vidya
                    > and share answers to all of the questions people have. At the same time
                    > though, it looks like people pick and choose from all the information
                    > only what "THEY WANT" the facts to be and put the rest under the rug.
                    >
                    > If one disregards the reported facts written by Paul Twitchell
                    > concerning his meetings, encounters, and relationships with Eck Masters
                    > then where does it leave you? In Never Never Land with Peter Pan and
                    > Tinker Bell, etc.? (Hey look! He's playing a flute!)
                    >
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverland
                    >
                    > Are "spiritual experiences", the "stories" (and the stories that people
                    > send in) somehow more REAL than factual accounts which can be
                    > researched and verified? Or, Are "spiritual experiences" sometimes used
                    > as a label for anything a person wants to be true? Iow, does the land
                    > of make believe trump the actual facts? This is what it comes down to,
                    > IMO.
                  • Janice Pfeiffer
                    Thank you etznab for clarifying.  ... From: etznab18 Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited) To:
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 9, 2012
                      Thank you etznab for clarifying. 

                      --- On Sun, 5/6/12, etznab18 <etznab@...> wrote:

                      From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Sunday, May 6, 2012, 2:50 AM

                       
                      "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                      Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

                      To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

                      (1)

                      Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                      [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

                      The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                      So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                      It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

                      http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                      (2)

                      July 2001:

                      "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

                      Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                      http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                      (3)

                      July 2003:

                      Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                      What are your on that stuff ?
                      I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                      As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
                      It's all a matter of perspective.
                      I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
                      On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                      http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                      (4) February 2004:

                      "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                      http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                      (5)

                      March 2007:

                      [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
                      Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                      I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                      So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
                      I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                      These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                      In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                      http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Prometheus,
                      >  
                      > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
                      >  
                      > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
                      >  
                      > Thanks
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello Janice and All,
                      > Interesting. I think I'll
                      > share some comments
                      > to your insights below.
                      >
                      > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      > "Prometheus,
                      >
                      > Now that is very interesting.
                      >
                      > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                      >
                      > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                      >
                      > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                      >
                      > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                      >
                      > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                      > many of us have had similar
                      > experiences of being attacked
                      > by negative entities and having
                      > to defend ourselves. In this case
                      > your RESA was, also, one of these
                      > negative beings. Too bad you
                      > couldn't protect yourself from
                      > them, but it's deceptive when
                      > one has placed trust in a RESA
                      > by assuming they are always
                      > positive and always on your side.
                      > They are as closed minded and
                      > defensive as is any religionist
                      > when protecting their dogma
                      > from too much scrutiny.
                      >
                      > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
                      >
                      > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                      > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                      > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                      > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                      > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                      > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                      > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                      > meditation/contemplation one will change
                      > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                      > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                      > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                      > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                      > when attention is placed upon these
                      > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                      > and every other conman knew and uses
                      > and what Klemp continues to use as
                      > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                      > the magician uses while the viewer's
                      > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                      >
                      >
                      > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
                      >
                      > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                      > are real. It could very well be that demons
                      > are metaphors for those things that bother
                      > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                      > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                      > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                      > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                      > have problems since they tend to pick and
                      > choose what is easy for them to believe
                      > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                      > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                      > narrow, terms.
                      >
                      >
                      > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                      > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
                      >
                      > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                      > He had the by-laws changed
                      > after he took over from D.G.
                      > and neither the President nor
                      > the EK Board has any voting
                      > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                      > and fire. The local Satsang
                      > Societies and local Boards have
                      > been set up the same (As Above).
                      > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                      > fire the local Presidents and
                      > Board members and the votes
                      > of Board members carry no
                      > authority! The RESA has the
                      > sole authority, unless, a higher
                      > authority at the ESC steps in.
                      > However, when this is done
                      > it is always with the approval
                      > of Klemp and under his direction.
                      >
                      >
                      > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
                      >
                      > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                      > ECK Master" was the best book written
                      > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                      > There were three interviews done around
                      > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                      > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                      > is that after all of these years he's still
                      > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                      > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                      > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                      > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                      > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                      > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                      > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                      > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                      > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                      > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                      > comments about how he confused things
                      > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                      > could take it easy during the start of
                      > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                      > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                      > accomplish!
                      >
                      > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                      >
                      > ME: I think that we all have to get
                      > over the guilt and shame of being
                      > tricked. Look at all of those who
                      > belong to a religion and donate
                      > time and money in order to get
                      > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                      > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                      > too! People need to believe in
                      > something that can give them
                      > hope and to help them to maintain
                      > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                      > know what people want and need.
                      > Attitude is, also, important but
                      > there's a fine line between being
                      > positive and being delusional.
                      > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                      > where to draw the line and some
                      > of us have more difficulty with
                      > seeing the good versus seeing
                      > the bad. However, I don't think
                      > that seeing the glass half-empty
                      > is always wrong, but it does present
                      > more of a challenge to overcome.
                      >
                      > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                      > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                      >
                      > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                      > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                      > and do a strip tease at an airport
                      > and choose jail or a mental institution
                      > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                      > was a liar up to the moment of his
                      > untimely death and, thus, was not
                      > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                      > him. Besides, many people have
                      > done stupid things when confused
                      > with life and have sought "spiritual
                      > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                      > claim that their mental missteps
                      > and episodes were "spiritual
                      > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                      > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                      > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                      > excuse his mental confusion.
                      > After all, HK's the leader of a
                      > church and has to be above
                      > and beyond reproach. It's a
                      > pretend game where he has
                      > to, partially, buy into the hype
                      > in order to seem authentic.
                      >
                      > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
                      >
                      > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                      > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                      > as long as they don't know who I am.
                      > That could/would change I'm sure.
                      > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                      > and I could understand that, however,
                      > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                      > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                      > not due to Eckankar or because of
                      > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                      > That crap just gets in the way and
                      > causes more codependency. Any
                      > growth or realization leading to
                      > an expanded awareness is learned
                      > and earned by the individual. It's
                      > their own personal and private
                      > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                      > whatever one wants to call this
                      > divine essence, or not, that leads
                      > to a divine knowingness and to
                      > contentment!
                      >
                      > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
                      >
                      > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                      > while knowing about the deceptions
                      > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                      > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                      > why throw the baby out with the
                      > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                      > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                      > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                      > works why complain? H.I.s have
                      > put blinders on in order to stay
                      > the course and maintain their
                      > prestigious positions which took
                      > them decades of time and money
                      > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                      > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                      > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                      > that did the same... picked and
                      > chose what they wanted to follow
                      > and believe. However, that's not
                      > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                      > work. One is supposed to take
                      > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                      > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                      > only the best from all of the other
                      > religions and experts, etc. in order
                      > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                      > dogma to the modern Western
                      > world. Thus, how can one pick
                      > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                      > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                      > following the guidance and the will
                      > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                      > they are heretics!
                      >
                      > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                      >
                      > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                      > Humans are social animals
                      > and most like to follow in
                      > one way or another because
                      > it's easier to follow than to
                      > lead. Being a follower requires
                      > less thought and energy. It's
                      > less demanding, less consuming,
                      > and is less stressful. It is true
                      > that the Higher one is with
                      > initiations, years, and titles
                      > the more lost that individual
                      > is. They've bought into it
                      > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                      > Klemp! However, the ones
                      > to really feel sorry for are those
                      > ESC staffers who know it's all
                      > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                      > but they have to put on an act
                      > in order to keep their jobs,
                      > health care, retirement, etc.
                      >
                      >
                      > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                      >
                      > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                      > friend of Klemp's who's an
                      > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                      > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                      > out there that have overlooked
                      > many facts and are based upon
                      > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                      > however, is that Doug's stated
                      > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                      > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                      > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                      > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                      > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                      > After all, PT needed to have
                      > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                      > his real master, initiate him.
                      > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                      > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                      > has admitted that Twitchell
                      > created the Mahanta title in
                      > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                      > omits all of this information
                      > in his books!
                      >
                      > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
                      >
                      > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                      >
                      > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
                      >
                      > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                      > It was interesting for me to
                      > comment.
                      >
                      >
                      > prometheus wrote:
                      >
                      > This is an entertaining approach.
                      >
                      > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >

                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello All, What I found interesting is that Klemp mentions Kirpal s name 15 times and Sudar s name 4 times. Just check the Twitchell info on Eckankar.org and
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 9, 2012
                        Hello All,
                        What I found interesting
                        is that Klemp mentions
                        Kirpal's name 15 times
                        and Sudar's name 4 times.

                        Just check the Twitchell
                        info on Eckankar.org and
                        count it up for yourselves.
                        HK mentions that Twit had
                        a falling out with Kirpal
                        (for some unknown reason)
                        and that Kirpal had possession
                        of Paul's "The Tiger's Fang"
                        manuscript which he, later,
                        returned circa June, 1966.

                        The "falling out" was because
                        Paul had "exaggerated" and
                        "twisted facts" as Klemp states
                        Twit had done at age 27 (1935)
                        to get into Who's Who in Kentucky.

                        Even though the Tiger's Fang
                        story made Kirpal (aka Rebazar,
                        et al.) appear to be a great master,
                        it also made Paul look like a
                        Master as well. PT was using
                        Kirpal to self-promote himself
                        and Kirpal was aware of Paul's
                        scam to place himself on a
                        plane of consciousness near
                        Kirpal's!

                        Think about this. Would Klemp
                        allow similar stories to be published
                        in EK Newsletters that would
                        place low level EKists on these
                        Higher Planes? Never! Klemp
                        would see it as a challenge to
                        his authority just as Kirpal did.

                        It's obvious that Kirpal Singh
                        was Paul's true master and
                        not Sudar Singh.

                        What's this mean?

                        Well, it means that Paul
                        lied and there are EK books
                        that perpetuate this same
                        lie.

                        It also means that Sudar
                        never existed. Thus, Paul
                        was never initiated by Sudar
                        into ECKankar. If anything,
                        Paul was initiated into Radhasoami
                        by Kirpal Singh (btw- Radhasoami
                        is a sect of Ruhani Satsang).

                        And, this means that Eckankar
                        is, actually, a sect of the sect
                        of Radhasoami. Look at the
                        dogma! Eckankar's is practically
                        identical to Radhasoami and
                        to Ruhani Satsang. Sects, basically,
                        follow the same dogma of the
                        original teaching but tend
                        to do some tweaking due to
                        a falling out regarding leadership.

                        Regardless of tapes that Twit
                        made, after-the-fact and about
                        fake masters like Rebazar, we
                        still have the June, 1971 interviews
                        that Twit did for "Difficulties
                        Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."

                        What Paul lied about in June 1971
                        as the "Full" Mahanta (created in 1969)
                        is more important than what he said
                        earlier.

                        Plus, we have the Timelines which
                        show more of PT's lies.

                        And, we have Klemp, on Eckankar.org,
                        stating that Kirpal Singh had possession
                        of PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript.
                        This was a manuscript... not a book!

                        Plus, we have Klemp stating that
                        Twitchell was a liar who "exaggerated"
                        and "twisted facts" along with several
                        on-going comments about Paul being
                        a (somewhat shameless) self-promoter.

                        The sum of these facts make it
                        almost impossible for any objective
                        person Not to be able to see the
                        truth and connect-the-dots and
                        know, without a reasonable doubt,
                        that Twitchell was a fake master,
                        plagiarist, and a conman.

                        Prometheus


                        Janice wrote:

                        Thank you etznab for clarifying.

                        Etznab wrote:

                        "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                        Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

                        To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

                        (1)

                        Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                        [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

                        The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                        So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                        It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

                        http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                        (2)

                        July 2001:

                        "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

                        Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                        http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                        (3)

                        July 2003:

                        Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                        What are your on that stuff ?
                        I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                        As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
                        It's all a matter of perspective.
                        I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
                        On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                        http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                        (4) February 2004:

                        "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                        (5)

                        March 2007:

                        [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
                        Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                        I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                        So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
                        I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                        These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                        In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                        http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Prometheus,
                        > Â
                        > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank you for being such a wise soul.
                        > Â
                        > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? The circus of eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization. It appears like a house of cards. Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event. Any ideas?
                        > Â
                        > Thanks
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Â
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello Janice and All,
                        > Interesting. I think I'll
                        > share some comments
                        > to your insights below.
                        >
                        > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        > "Prometheus,
                        >
                        > Now that is very interesting.
                        >
                        > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                        >
                        > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                        >
                        > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                        >
                        > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                        >
                        > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                        > many of us have had similar
                        > experiences of being attacked
                        > by negative entities and having
                        > to defend ourselves. In this case
                        > your RESA was, also, one of these
                        > negative beings. Too bad you
                        > couldn't protect yourself from
                        > them, but it's deceptive when
                        > one has placed trust in a RESA
                        > by assuming they are always
                        > positive and always on your side.
                        > They are as closed minded and
                        > defensive as is any religionist
                        > when protecting their dogma
                        > from too much scrutiny.
                        >
                        > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
                        >
                        > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                        > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                        > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                        > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                        > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                        > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                        > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                        > meditation/contemplation one will change
                        > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                        > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                        > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                        > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                        > when attention is placed upon these
                        > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                        > and every other conman knew and uses
                        > and what Klemp continues to use as
                        > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                        > the magician uses while the viewer's
                        > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                        >
                        >
                        > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
                        >
                        > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                        > are real. It could very well be that demons
                        > are metaphors for those things that bother
                        > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                        > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                        > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                        > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                        > have problems since they tend to pick and
                        > choose what is easy for them to believe
                        > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                        > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                        > narrow, terms.
                        >
                        >
                        > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                        > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
                        >
                        > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                        > He had the by-laws changed
                        > after he took over from D.G.
                        > and neither the President nor
                        > the EK Board has any voting
                        > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                        > and fire. The local Satsang
                        > Societies and local Boards have
                        > been set up the same (As Above).
                        > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                        > fire the local Presidents and
                        > Board members and the votes
                        > of Board members carry no
                        > authority! The RESA has the
                        > sole authority, unless, a higher
                        > authority at the ESC steps in.
                        > However, when this is done
                        > it is always with the approval
                        > of Klemp and under his direction.
                        >
                        >
                        > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
                        >
                        > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                        > ECK Master" was the best book written
                        > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                        > There were three interviews done around
                        > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                        > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                        > is that after all of these years he's still
                        > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                        > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                        > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                        > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                        > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                        > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                        > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                        > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                        > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                        > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                        > comments about how he confused things
                        > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                        > could take it easy during the start of
                        > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                        > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                        > accomplish!
                        >
                        > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                        >
                        > ME: I think that we all have to get
                        > over the guilt and shame of being
                        > tricked. Look at all of those who
                        > belong to a religion and donate
                        > time and money in order to get
                        > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                        > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                        > too! People need to believe in
                        > something that can give them
                        > hope and to help them to maintain
                        > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                        > know what people want and need.
                        > Attitude is, also, important but
                        > there's a fine line between being
                        > positive and being delusional.
                        > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                        > where to draw the line and some
                        > of us have more difficulty with
                        > seeing the good versus seeing
                        > the bad. However, I don't think
                        > that seeing the glass half-empty
                        > is always wrong, but it does present
                        > more of a challenge to overcome.
                        >
                        > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                        > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                        >
                        > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                        > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                        > and do a strip tease at an airport
                        > and choose jail or a mental institution
                        > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                        > was a liar up to the moment of his
                        > untimely death and, thus, was not
                        > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                        > him. Besides, many people have
                        > done stupid things when confused
                        > with life and have sought "spiritual
                        > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                        > claim that their mental missteps
                        > and episodes were "spiritual
                        > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                        > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                        > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                        > excuse his mental confusion.
                        > After all, HK's the leader of a
                        > church and has to be above
                        > and beyond reproach. It's a
                        > pretend game where he has
                        > to, partially, buy into the hype
                        > in order to seem authentic.
                        >
                        > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
                        >
                        > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                        > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                        > as long as they don't know who I am.
                        > That could/would change I'm sure.
                        > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                        > and I could understand that, however,
                        > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                        > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                        > not due to Eckankar or because of
                        > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                        > That crap just gets in the way and
                        > causes more codependency. Any
                        > growth or realization leading to
                        > an expanded awareness is learned
                        > and earned by the individual. It's
                        > their own personal and private
                        > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                        > whatever one wants to call this
                        > divine essence, or not, that leads
                        > to a divine knowingness and to
                        > contentment!
                        >
                        > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
                        >
                        > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                        > while knowing about the deceptions
                        > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                        > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                        > why throw the baby out with the
                        > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                        > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                        > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                        > works why complain? H.I.s have
                        > put blinders on in order to stay
                        > the course and maintain their
                        > prestigious positions which took
                        > them decades of time and money
                        > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                        > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                        > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                        > that did the same... picked and
                        > chose what they wanted to follow
                        > and believe. However, that's not
                        > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                        > work. One is supposed to take
                        > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                        > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                        > only the best from all of the other
                        > religions and experts, etc. in order
                        > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                        > dogma to the modern Western
                        > world. Thus, how can one pick
                        > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                        > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                        > following the guidance and the will
                        > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                        > they are heretics!
                        >
                        > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                        >
                        > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                        > Humans are social animals
                        > and most like to follow in
                        > one way or another because
                        > it's easier to follow than to
                        > lead. Being a follower requires
                        > less thought and energy. It's
                        > less demanding, less consuming,
                        > and is less stressful. It is true
                        > that the Higher one is with
                        > initiations, years, and titles
                        > the more lost that individual
                        > is. They've bought into it
                        > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                        > Klemp! However, the ones
                        > to really feel sorry for are those
                        > ESC staffers who know it's all
                        > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                        > but they have to put on an act
                        > in order to keep their jobs,
                        > health care, retirement, etc.
                        >
                        >
                        > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                        >
                        > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                        > friend of Klemp's who's an
                        > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                        > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                        > out there that have overlooked
                        > many facts and are based upon
                        > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                        > however, is that Doug's stated
                        > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                        > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                        > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                        > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                        > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                        > After all, PT needed to have
                        > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                        > his real master, initiate him.
                        > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                        > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                        > has admitted that Twitchell
                        > created the Mahanta title in
                        > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                        > omits all of this information
                        > in his books!
                        >
                        > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
                        >
                        > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                        >
                        > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
                        >
                        > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                        > It was interesting for me to
                        > comment.
                        >
                        >
                        > prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > This is an entertaining approach.
                        >
                        > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                      • etznab@aol.com
                        Nice post there. Lots of good points. Thanks. ... From: prometheus_973 To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 10, 2012
                          Nice post there. Lots of good points. Thanks.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wed, May 9, 2012 12:48 pm
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                          (Revisited)

                           
                          Hello All,
                          What I found interesting
                          is that Klemp mentions
                          Kirpal's name 15 times
                          and Sudar's name 4 times.

                          Just check the Twitchell
                          info on Eckankar.org and
                          count it up for yourselves.
                          HK mentions that Twit had
                          a falling out with Kirpal
                          (for some unknown reason)
                          and that Kirpal had possession
                          of Paul's "The Tiger's Fang"
                          manuscript which he, later,
                          returned circa June, 1966.

                          The "falling out" was because
                          Paul had "exaggerated" and
                          "twisted facts" as Klemp states
                          Twit had done at age 27 (1935)
                          to get into Who's Who in Kentucky.

                          Even though the Tiger's Fang
                          story made Kirpal (aka Rebazar,
                          et al.) appear to be a great master,
                          it also made Paul look like a
                          Master as well. PT was using
                          Kirpal to self-promote himself
                          and Kirpal was aware of Paul's
                          scam to place himself on a
                          plane of consciousness near
                          Kirpal's!

                          Think about this. Would Klemp
                          allow similar stories to be published
                          in EK Newsletters that would
                          place low level EKists on these
                          Higher Planes? Never! Klemp
                          would see it as a challenge to
                          his authority just as Kirpal did.

                          It's obvious that Kirpal Singh
                          was Paul's true master and
                          not Sudar Singh.

                          What's this mean?

                          Well, it means that Paul
                          lied and there are EK books
                          that perpetuate this same
                          lie.

                          It also means that Sudar
                          never existed. Thus, Paul
                          was never initiated by Sudar
                          into ECKankar. If anything,
                          Paul was initiated into Radhasoami
                          by Kirpal Singh (btw- Radhasoami
                          is a sect of Ruhani Satsang).

                          And, this means that Eckankar
                          is, actually, a sect of the sect
                          of Radhasoami. Look at the
                          dogma! Eckankar's is practically
                          identical to Radhasoami and
                          to Ruhani Satsang. Sects, basically,
                          follow the same dogma of the
                          original teaching but tend
                          to do some tweaking due to
                          a falling out regarding leadership.

                          Regardless of tapes that Twit
                          made, after-the-fact and about
                          fake masters like Rebazar, we
                          still have the June, 1971 interviews
                          that Twit did for "Difficulties
                          Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."

                          What Paul lied about in June 1971
                          as the "Full" Mahanta (created in 1969)
                          is more important than what he said
                          earlier.

                          Plus, we have the Timelines which
                          show more of PT's lies.

                          And, we have Klemp, on Eckankar.org,
                          stating that Kirpal Singh had possession
                          of PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript.
                          This was a manuscript... not a book!

                          Plus, we have Klemp stating that
                          Twitchell was a liar who "exaggerated"
                          and "twisted facts" along with several
                          on-going comments about Paul being
                          a (somewhat shameless) self-promoter.

                          The sum of these facts make it
                          almost impossible for any objective
                          person Not to be able to see the
                          truth and connect-the-dots and
                          know, without a reasonable doubt,
                          that Twitchell was a fake master,
                          plagiarist, and a conman.

                          Prometheus

                          Janice wrote:

                          Thank you etznab for clarifying.

                          Etznab wrote:

                          "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                          admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                          Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for
                          complete context.)

                          To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is
                          still a long post though.

                          (1)

                          Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                          [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
                          self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day
                          I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in
                          the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his
                          home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was
                          trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The
                          Master.

                          The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs.
                          Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying
                          something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the
                          voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from
                          Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember
                          much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could
                          hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                          So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard
                          anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me
                          that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told
                          Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I
                          was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I
                          immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                          It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a
                          deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire
                          to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused,
                          as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is
                          never any reason to rush." [... .]

                          http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                          (2)

                          July 2001:

                          "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT
                          my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David
                          Lane?]

                          Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't
                          David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought
                          that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's
                          Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but
                          was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967.
                          [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                          http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                          (3)

                          July 2003:

                          Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos
                          most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or
                          insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to
                          have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and
                          perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                          What are your on that stuff ?
                          I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the
                          fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual
                          dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different
                          picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from
                          other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                          As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look
                          back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with
                          Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to
                          leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I
                          took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the
                          new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are
                          almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I
                          was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a
                          spin-off.
                          It's all a matter of perspective.
                          I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously
                          liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even
                          used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country.
                          However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal
                          Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected
                          his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far
                          Country far differently.
                          On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he
                          wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's
                          books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a
                          serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure
                          Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                          http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                          (4) February 2004:

                          "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I
                          guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use
                          other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck
                          Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                          http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                          (5)

                          March 2007:

                          [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's
                          book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual
                          account?
                          Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is
                          he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                          I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By
                          The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works,
                          but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                          So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar
                          work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow
                          you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it
                          becomes a trust issue for them.
                          I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was
                          much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing
                          spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                          These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So,
                          I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he
                          was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                          In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book,
                          to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it
                          was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was
                          he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing
                          spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works
                          in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                          http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                          <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Prometheus,
                          > Â
                          > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It
                          gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank
                          you for being such a wise soul.
                          > Â
                          > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                          admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and
                          why? The circus of eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear
                          from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand
                          as an organization. It appears like a house of cards. Do you
                          think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you
                          think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their
                          membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.Â
                          Any ideas?
                          > Â
                          > Thanks
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of
                          ECKankar (Revisited)
                          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Â
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hello Janice and All,
                          > Interesting. I think I'll
                          > share some comments
                          > to your insights below.
                          >
                          > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                          > "Prometheus,
                          >
                          > Now that is very interesting.
                          >
                          > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or
                          so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't
                          falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of
                          energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one
                          night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember
                          later. I know it started with a P.
                          >
                          > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind
                          and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but
                          I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp.
                          It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an
                          ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood
                          gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my
                          dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                          >
                          > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar
                          as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the
                          dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my
                          favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found
                          it very confusing to have these dreams.
                          >
                          > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long
                          term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions
                          that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck
                          teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was
                          true beauty in the teachings."
                          >
                          > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                          > many of us have had similar
                          > experiences of being attacked
                          > by negative entities and having
                          > to defend ourselves. In this case
                          > your RESA was, also, one of these
                          > negative beings. Too bad you
                          > couldn't protect yourself from
                          > them, but it's deceptive when
                          > one has placed trust in a RESA
                          > by assuming they are always
                          > positive and always on your side.
                          > They are as closed minded and
                          > defensive as is any religionist
                          > when protecting their dogma
                          > from too much scrutiny.
                          >
                          > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how
                          it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading
                          all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another
                          year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack
                          seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of
                          eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive
                          thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I
                          wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to
                          them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many
                          occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be
                          respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories
                          about the personal lives of other eckist."
                          >
                          > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                          > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                          > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                          > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                          > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                          > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                          > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                          > meditation/contemplation one will change
                          > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                          > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                          > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                          > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                          > when attention is placed upon these
                          > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                          > and every other conman knew and uses
                          > and what Klemp continues to use as
                          > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                          > the magician uses while the viewer's
                          > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                          >
                          >
                          > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind
                          eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with
                          demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have
                          always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or
                          demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say,
                          I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't
                          have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious
                          hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature
                          of eckankar."
                          >
                          > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                          > are real. It could very well be that demons
                          > are metaphors for those things that bother
                          > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                          > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                          > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                          > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                          > have problems since they tend to pick and
                          > choose what is easy for them to believe
                          > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                          > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                          > narrow, terms.
                          >
                          >
                          > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master
                          and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet
                          for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                          > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my
                          biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the
                          mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly
                          looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't
                          charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability
                          that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources
                          outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to
                          me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck
                          master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds
                          making up corporate eckankar."
                          >
                          > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                          > He had the by-laws changed
                          > after he took over from D.G.
                          > and neither the President nor
                          > the EK Board has any voting
                          > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                          > and fire. The local Satsang
                          > Societies and local Boards have
                          > been set up the same (As Above).
                          > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                          > fire the local Presidents and
                          > Board members and the votes
                          > of Board members carry no
                          > authority! The RESA has the
                          > sole authority, unless, a higher
                          > authority at the ESC steps in.
                          > However, when this is done
                          > it is always with the approval
                          > of Klemp and under his direction.
                          >
                          >
                          > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by
                          twitchell and others that the average person would think is not
                          spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great
                          power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been
                          removed from print."
                          >
                          > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                          > ECK Master" was the best book written
                          > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                          > There were three interviews done around
                          > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                          > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                          > is that after all of these years he's still
                          > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                          > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                          > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                          > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                          > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                          > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                          > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                          > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                          > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                          > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                          > comments about how he confused things
                          > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                          > could take it easy during the start of
                          > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                          > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                          > accomplish!
                          >
                          > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it
                          so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little
                          bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more
                          knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about
                          demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking
                          the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in
                          recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am
                          thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did
                          not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway.
                          Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am
                          ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think
                          most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                          >
                          > ME: I think that we all have to get
                          > over the guilt and shame of being
                          > tricked. Look at all of those who
                          > belong to a religion and donate
                          > time and money in order to get
                          > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                          > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                          > too! People need to believe in
                          > something that can give them
                          > hope and to help them to maintain
                          > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                          > know what people want and need.
                          > Attitude is, also, important but
                          > there's a fine line between being
                          > positive and being delusional.
                          > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                          > where to draw the line and some
                          > of us have more difficulty with
                          > seeing the good versus seeing
                          > the bad. However, I don't think
                          > that seeing the glass half-empty
                          > is always wrong, but it does present
                          > more of a challenge to overcome.
                          >
                          > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't
                          healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems.
                          Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot.
                          Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe
                          mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't
                          this great living eck master help them over come these things or at
                          least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck
                          master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is
                          necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp
                          describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with
                          a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in
                          public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed
                          the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was
                          woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                          > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in
                          twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                          >
                          > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                          > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                          > and do a strip tease at an airport
                          > and choose jail or a mental institution
                          > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                          > was a liar up to the moment of his
                          > untimely death and, thus, was not
                          > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                          > him. Besides, many people have
                          > done stupid things when confused
                          > with life and have sought "spiritual
                          > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                          > claim that their mental missteps
                          > and episodes were "spiritual
                          > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                          > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                          > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                          > excuse his mental confusion.
                          > After all, HK's the leader of a
                          > church and has to be above
                          > and beyond reproach. It's a
                          > pretend game where he has
                          > to, partially, buy into the hype
                          > in order to seem authentic.
                          >
                          > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and
                          who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well
                          adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this
                          article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is
                          possible to grow in eckankar."
                          >
                          > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                          > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                          > as long as they don't know who I am.
                          > That could/would change I'm sure.
                          > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                          > and I could understand that, however,
                          > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                          > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                          > not due to Eckankar or because of
                          > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                          > That crap just gets in the way and
                          > causes more codependency. Any
                          > growth or realization leading to
                          > an expanded awareness is learned
                          > and earned by the individual. It's
                          > their own personal and private
                          > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                          > whatever one wants to call this
                          > divine essence, or not, that leads
                          > to a divine knowingness and to
                          > contentment!
                          >
                          > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings
                          came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several
                          high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply
                          accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that
                          the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed
                          relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can
                          use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings
                          being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which
                          ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth
                          wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as
                          needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this
                          concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be
                          knowingly condoned."
                          >
                          > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                          > while knowing about the deceptions
                          > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                          > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                          > why throw the baby out with the
                          > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                          > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                          > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                          > works why complain? H.I.s have
                          > put blinders on in order to stay
                          > the course and maintain their
                          > prestigious positions which took
                          > them decades of time and money
                          > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                          > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                          > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                          > that did the same... picked and
                          > chose what they wanted to follow
                          > and believe. However, that's not
                          > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                          > work. One is supposed to take
                          > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                          > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                          > only the best from all of the other
                          > religions and experts, etc. in order
                          > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                          > dogma to the modern Western
                          > world. Thus, how can one pick
                          > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                          > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                          > following the guidance and the will
                          > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                          > they are heretics!
                          >
                          > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other
                          than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as
                          greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still
                          wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that
                          eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel
                          for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just
                          remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                          >
                          > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                          > Humans are social animals
                          > and most like to follow in
                          > one way or another because
                          > it's easier to follow than to
                          > lead. Being a follower requires
                          > less thought and energy. It's
                          > less demanding, less consuming,
                          > and is less stressful. It is true
                          > that the Higher one is with
                          > initiations, years, and titles
                          > the more lost that individual
                          > is. They've bought into it
                          > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                          > Klemp! However, the ones
                          > to really feel sorry for are those
                          > ESC staffers who know it's all
                          > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                          > but they have to put on an act
                          > in order to keep their jobs,
                          > health care, retirement, etc.
                          >
                          >
                          > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar
                          with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be
                          appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are
                          these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an
                          eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                          >
                          > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                          > friend of Klemp's who's an
                          > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                          > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                          > out there that have overlooked
                          > many facts and are based upon
                          > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                          > however, is that Doug's stated
                          > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                          > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                          > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                          > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                          > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                          > After all, PT needed to have
                          > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                          > his real master, initiate him.
                          > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                          > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                          > has admitted that Twitchell
                          > created the Mahanta title in
                          > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                          > omits all of this information
                          > in his books!
                          >
                          > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a
                          private person, I felt a need to write it.
                          >
                          > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                          >
                          > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful
                          spiritual experiences."
                          >
                          > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                          > It was interesting for me to
                          > comment.
                          >
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > This is an entertaining approach.
                          >
                          >
                          http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                          >
                          > Prometheus
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