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Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Janice and All, Interesting. I think I ll share some comments to your insights below. Janice Pfeiffer wrote: Prometheus, Now that is very interesting.
    Message 1 of 14 , May 3 12:33 PM
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      Hello Janice and All,
      Interesting. I think I'll
      share some comments
      to your insights below.


      Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
      "Prometheus,

      Now that is very interesting.

      I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.

      Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.

      Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.

      I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."


      ME (Prometheus): I know that
      many of us have had similar
      experiences of being attacked
      by negative entities and having
      to defend ourselves. In this case
      your RESA was, also, one of these
      negative beings. Too bad you
      couldn't protect yourself from
      them, but it's deceptive when
      one has placed trust in a RESA
      by assuming they are always
      positive and always on your side.
      They are as closed minded and
      defensive as is any religionist
      when protecting their dogma
      from too much scrutiny.


      "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."


      ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
      Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
      ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
      until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
      the catch is that there's a time limit for
      being skeptical. True, when one seeks
      the "Truth" via introspection and uses
      meditation/contemplation one will change
      and see with new eyes, but that's not due
      to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
      tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
      dream and imagine all sorts of things
      when attention is placed upon these
      areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
      and every other conman knew and uses
      and what Klemp continues to use as
      a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
      the magician uses while the viewer's
      attention is distracted elsewhere.


      "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."


      ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
      are real. It could very well be that demons
      are metaphors for those things that bother
      and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
      and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
      all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
      This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
      have problems since they tend to pick and
      choose what is easy for them to believe
      since they tend to be more simple-minded
      and tend to see most everything in literal,
      narrow, terms.


      "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
      see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."


      ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
      He had the by-laws changed
      after he took over from D.G.
      and neither the President nor
      the EK Board has any voting
      authority. Only Klemp can hire
      and fire. The local Satsang
      Societies and local Boards have
      been set up the same (As Above).
      Thus, the RESAs can hire and
      fire the local Presidents and
      Board members and the votes
      of Board members carry no
      authority! The RESA has the
      sole authority, unless, a higher
      authority at the ESC steps in.
      However, when this is done
      it is always with the approval
      of Klemp and under his direction.


      "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."


      ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
      ECK Master" was the best book written
      depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
      There were three interviews done around
      June 1971 while PT was the full blown
      self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
      is that after all of these years he's still
      lying about his past. Klemp has stated
      on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
      and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
      Who's Who and had never traveled all that
      far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
      1971 interview), is saying he was almost
      16 years old when he, first, went from
      Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
      Sudar Singh. There are more examples
      that are even more outlandish. Paul's
      comments about how he confused things
      and screwed up paperwork so that he
      could take it easy during the start of
      WWII showed a level of subversion and
      sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
      accomplish!




      "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."


      ME: I think that we all have to get
      over the guilt and shame of being
      tricked. Look at all of those who
      belong to a religion and donate
      time and money in order to get
      their "feel good" fix. Religions
      are types of opiates... Eckankar
      too! People need to believe in
      something that can give them
      hope and to help them to maintain
      a positive outlook. And, conmen
      know what people want and need.
      Attitude is, also, important but
      there's a fine line between being
      positive and being delusional.
      Sometimes it's difficult to know
      where to draw the line and some
      of us have more difficulty with
      seeing the good versus seeing
      the bad. However, I don't think
      that seeing the glass half-empty
      is always wrong, but it does present
      more of a challenge to overcome.

      "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"


      ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
      ever needed to jump off a bridge
      and do a strip tease at an airport
      and choose jail or a mental institution
      in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
      was a liar up to the moment of his
      untimely death and, thus, was not
      a "spiritual being." It was all about
      him. Besides, many people have
      done stupid things when confused
      with life and have sought "spiritual
      solutions." If one chose to, one could
      claim that their mental missteps
      and episodes were "spiritual
      experiences" as Klemp has done.
      Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
      hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
      excuse his mental confusion.
      After all, HK's the leader of a
      church and has to be above
      and beyond reproach. It's a
      pretend game where he has
      to, partially, buy into the hype
      in order to seem authentic.


      "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."


      ME: I, too, know and remember some
      H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
      as long as they don't know who I am.
      That could/would change I'm sure.
      They would feel betrayed and insulted
      and I could understand that, however,
      that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
      To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
      not due to Eckankar or because of
      inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
      That crap just gets in the way and
      causes more codependency. Any
      growth or realization leading to
      an expanded awareness is learned
      and earned by the individual. It's
      their own personal and private
      relationship to the Holy Spirit or
      whatever one wants to call this
      divine essence, or not, that leads
      to a divine knowingness and to
      contentment!



      "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."


      ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
      while knowing about the deceptions
      and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
      if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
      why throw the baby out with the
      (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
      nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
      of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
      works why complain? H.I.s have
      put blinders on in order to stay
      the course and maintain their
      prestigious positions which took
      them decades of time and money
      to obtain. Many have rejected, in
      part, HK's RESA structure and the
      ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
      that did the same... picked and
      chose what they wanted to follow
      and believe. However, that's not
      the way Eckankar is supposed to
      work. One is supposed to take
      the bait and swallow it hook, line,
      and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
      only the best from all of the other
      religions and experts, etc. in order
      to create (or bring forth) the EK
      dogma to the modern Western
      world. Thus, how can one pick
      and chose when it's all, supposedly,
      relevant? If a person is not consciously
      following the guidance and the will
      of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
      they are heretics!



      "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."


      ME: True! It's nice to belong.
      Humans are social animals
      and most like to follow in
      one way or another because
      it's easier to follow than to
      lead. Being a follower requires
      less thought and energy. It's
      less demanding, less consuming,
      and is less stressful. It is true
      that the Higher one is with
      initiations, years, and titles
      the more lost that individual
      is. They've bought into it
      to the extreme. Look at Marge
      Klemp! However, the ones
      to really feel sorry for are those
      ESC staffers who know it's all
      a sham and Klemp is a poser,
      but they have to put on an act
      in order to keep their jobs,
      health care, retirement, etc.


      "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."


      ME: Doug Marman is an old
      friend of Klemp's who's an
      apologist for Eckankar. I think
      he's a 7th. He's got some books
      out there that have overlooked
      many facts and are based upon
      lies and hearsay. What's funny,
      however, is that Doug's stated
      that Twitchell lied about traveling
      to Paris, France to visit his sister
      when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
      And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
      was probably made up by Twitchell.
      After all, PT needed to have
      someone other than Kirpal Singh,
      his real master, initiate him.
      Thus, PT created RT in order to
      initiate himself. Plus, Marman
      has admitted that Twitchell
      created the Mahanta title in
      January 1969. Yet, Marman
      omits all of this information
      in his books!

      "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.

      Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.

      May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."

      ME: Thanks for sharing this.
      It was interesting for me to
      comment.



      prometheus wrote:


      This is an entertaining approach.

      http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

      Prometheus
    • Janice Pfeiffer
      Prometheus,   You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for
      Message 2 of 14 , May 3 2:27 PM
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        Prometheus,
         
        You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
         
        Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
         
        Thanks



        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM

         
        Hello Janice and All,
        Interesting. I think I'll
        share some comments
        to your insights below.

        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        "Prometheus,

        Now that is very interesting.

        I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.

        Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.

        Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.

        I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."

        ME (Prometheus): I know that
        many of us have had similar
        experiences of being attacked
        by negative entities and having
        to defend ourselves. In this case
        your RESA was, also, one of these
        negative beings. Too bad you
        couldn't protect yourself from
        them, but it's deceptive when
        one has placed trust in a RESA
        by assuming they are always
        positive and always on your side.
        They are as closed minded and
        defensive as is any religionist
        when protecting their dogma
        from too much scrutiny.

        "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."

        ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
        Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
        ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
        until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
        the catch is that there's a time limit for
        being skeptical. True, when one seeks
        the "Truth" via introspection and uses
        meditation/contemplation one will change
        and see with new eyes, but that's not due
        to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
        tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
        dream and imagine all sorts of things
        when attention is placed upon these
        areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
        and every other conman knew and uses
        and what Klemp continues to use as
        a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
        the magician uses while the viewer's
        attention is distracted elsewhere.


        "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."

        ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
        are real. It could very well be that demons
        are metaphors for those things that bother
        and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
        and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
        all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
        This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
        have problems since they tend to pick and
        choose what is easy for them to believe
        since they tend to be more simple-minded
        and tend to see most everything in literal,
        narrow, terms.


        "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
        see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."

        ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
        He had the by-laws changed
        after he took over from D.G.
        and neither the President nor
        the EK Board has any voting
        authority. Only Klemp can hire
        and fire. The local Satsang
        Societies and local Boards have
        been set up the same (As Above).
        Thus, the RESAs can hire and
        fire the local Presidents and
        Board members and the votes
        of Board members carry no
        authority! The RESA has the
        sole authority, unless, a higher
        authority at the ESC steps in.
        However, when this is done
        it is always with the approval
        of Klemp and under his direction.


        "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."

        ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
        ECK Master" was the best book written
        depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
        There were three interviews done around
        June 1971 while PT was the full blown
        self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
        is that after all of these years he's still
        lying about his past. Klemp has stated
        on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
        and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
        Who's Who and had never traveled all that
        far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
        1971 interview), is saying he was almost
        16 years old when he, first, went from
        Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
        Sudar Singh. There are more examples
        that are even more outlandish. Paul's
        comments about how he confused things
        and screwed up paperwork so that he
        could take it easy during the start of
        WWII showed a level of subversion and
        sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
        accomplish!

        "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."

        ME: I think that we all have to get
        over the guilt and shame of being
        tricked. Look at all of those who
        belong to a religion and donate
        time and money in order to get
        their "feel good" fix. Religions
        are types of opiates... Eckankar
        too! People need to believe in
        something that can give them
        hope and to help them to maintain
        a positive outlook. And, conmen
        know what people want and need.
        Attitude is, also, important but
        there's a fine line between being
        positive and being delusional.
        Sometimes it's difficult to know
        where to draw the line and some
        of us have more difficulty with
        seeing the good versus seeing
        the bad. However, I don't think
        that seeing the glass half-empty
        is always wrong, but it does present
        more of a challenge to overcome.

        "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"

        ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
        ever needed to jump off a bridge
        and do a strip tease at an airport
        and choose jail or a mental institution
        in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
        was a liar up to the moment of his
        untimely death and, thus, was not
        a "spiritual being." It was all about
        him. Besides, many people have
        done stupid things when confused
        with life and have sought "spiritual
        solutions." If one chose to, one could
        claim that their mental missteps
        and episodes were "spiritual
        experiences" as Klemp has done.
        Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
        hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
        excuse his mental confusion.
        After all, HK's the leader of a
        church and has to be above
        and beyond reproach. It's a
        pretend game where he has
        to, partially, buy into the hype
        in order to seem authentic.

        "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."

        ME: I, too, know and remember some
        H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
        as long as they don't know who I am.
        That could/would change I'm sure.
        They would feel betrayed and insulted
        and I could understand that, however,
        that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
        To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
        not due to Eckankar or because of
        inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
        That crap just gets in the way and
        causes more codependency. Any
        growth or realization leading to
        an expanded awareness is learned
        and earned by the individual. It's
        their own personal and private
        relationship to the Holy Spirit or
        whatever one wants to call this
        divine essence, or not, that leads
        to a divine knowingness and to
        contentment!

        "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."

        ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
        while knowing about the deceptions
        and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
        if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
        why throw the baby out with the
        (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
        nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
        of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
        works why complain? H.I.s have
        put blinders on in order to stay
        the course and maintain their
        prestigious positions which took
        them decades of time and money
        to obtain. Many have rejected, in
        part, HK's RESA structure and the
        ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
        that did the same... picked and
        chose what they wanted to follow
        and believe. However, that's not
        the way Eckankar is supposed to
        work. One is supposed to take
        the bait and swallow it hook, line,
        and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
        only the best from all of the other
        religions and experts, etc. in order
        to create (or bring forth) the EK
        dogma to the modern Western
        world. Thus, how can one pick
        and chose when it's all, supposedly,
        relevant? If a person is not consciously
        following the guidance and the will
        of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
        they are heretics!

        "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."

        ME: True! It's nice to belong.
        Humans are social animals
        and most like to follow in
        one way or another because
        it's easier to follow than to
        lead. Being a follower requires
        less thought and energy. It's
        less demanding, less consuming,
        and is less stressful. It is true
        that the Higher one is with
        initiations, years, and titles
        the more lost that individual
        is. They've bought into it
        to the extreme. Look at Marge
        Klemp! However, the ones
        to really feel sorry for are those
        ESC staffers who know it's all
        a sham and Klemp is a poser,
        but they have to put on an act
        in order to keep their jobs,
        health care, retirement, etc.


        "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."

        ME: Doug Marman is an old
        friend of Klemp's who's an
        apologist for Eckankar. I think
        he's a 7th. He's got some books
        out there that have overlooked
        many facts and are based upon
        lies and hearsay. What's funny,
        however, is that Doug's stated
        that Twitchell lied about traveling
        to Paris, France to visit his sister
        when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
        And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
        was probably made up by Twitchell.
        After all, PT needed to have
        someone other than Kirpal Singh,
        his real master, initiate him.
        Thus, PT created RT in order to
        initiate himself. Plus, Marman
        has admitted that Twitchell
        created the Mahanta title in
        January 1969. Yet, Marman
        omits all of this information
        in his books!

        "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.

        Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.

        May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."

        ME: Thanks for sharing this.
        It was interesting for me to
        comment.


        prometheus wrote:

        This is an entertaining approach.

        http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

        Prometheus

      • prometheus_973
        Hello Janice, Actually Marman kind of side-steps the Rebazar issue with some double talk. He agrees that there is no proof or records of Rebazar s existence,
        Message 3 of 14 , May 3 4:53 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Janice,
          Actually Marman kind of
          side-steps the Rebazar
          issue with some double
          talk. He agrees that there
          is no proof or records
          of Rebazar's existence,
          but states that it can't
          be proven that Rebazar
          doesn't exist. How can
          anyone disprove a negative?

          Well, via a timeline! PT
          mentions in "Difficulties"
          of meeting Rebazar (pgs.
          70-71) in 1947 where he
          went up to the 7th initiation
          and then met with him
          again on a third visit
          to India around 1951
          where PT "got the finish
          of my initiations." Except,
          PT never knew of the term
          or rank of Mahanta until
          Jan. 1969... which Marman
          verifies and admits that
          this was when Paul created
          the Mahanta. That's rather
          strange isn't it since there's
          supposed to be an "Ancient
          Lineage of Mahantas."

          [On pg. 48 PT mentions that
          his first visit to India was in
          1924 when he was 15 (born
          1908)].

          Plus, let's not forget than
          Marman points out that
          Twitchell went to visit his
          sister in Paris, Kentucky
          and not Paris, France! Yes,
          Marman admits that Twit
          lied! So, how could Paul have
          met Sudar in Paris, France
          and then traveled to India
          with him where he received
          his 1st and 2nd initiations
          and then turned over, by
          Sudar, to Rebazar? It never
          happened!

          Apparently, Marman has
          trouble connecting the dots!

          Thus, how can there be
          an Ancient Lineage when
          the Mahanta was created
          in 1969? This, also, means
          that Rebazar was not a
          Mahanta nor were any so-
          called ECK (Spiritual) Masters
          prior to Rebazar. Actually,
          it points out that Twitchell
          never met Rebazar because
          he doesn't exist.

          Also, Marman states that
          the belief in saints, saviors,
          and spiritual masters is an
          intrinsic memory that Soul
          has remembered from past
          lifetimes... thus it must be
          true! These were never conmen,
          fakes, or snake oil salesmen
          and everyone knows that
          the Catholic Church and Sant
          Mat never exaggerated the
          PR of their saints!

          BTW- The following TS
          response can be found in
          the FILES section listed on
          the left under HOME,
          MESSAGES, and above
          LINKS.

          Doug Marman
          02/08/2004

          [FROM FORD JOHNSON'S (old) "THE TRUTH SEEKER" site]:

          A Few Responses:

          To Nacal [Prometheus]:

          [MARMAN ON REBAZAR]
          You went on:
          "Let's now go back up to the
          preceding paragraph since
          you seem to claim to like
          "facts" (why don't you give
          your sources?).

          "But it is a fact that his Master
          Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan
          lama, who appears to be in his
          early forties, was a young man
          when Columbus discovered America."
          Now, was that really a "fact," or
          a delusional belief, or a deliberate
          lie? Or, is it that, "There is a need
          of the people to believe in the magic
          of a saviour, and Sri Paul Twitchell
          knows this and acts out the part"
          (same article)."

          Marman: "It certainly is no fact,
          since there are no records nor
          anything else to prove that Rebazar
          Tarzs even exists, never mind
          how old he really is.

          However, there is no proof that
          it is a lie, either.

          It certainly sounds far-fetched.
          But I don't think the belief in
          saints, saviors and spiritual
          teachers comes from the desire
          to believe in magic. I think it
          comes from the innate memory
          within Soul that there is a truth
          and meaning to life that most
          of the world seems to have forgotten,
          but some remember."

          I don't think Eckankar is doing
          all that well. It's a limited audience
          with limited resources. Fortunately,
          Klemp is the main reason that
          Eckankar hasn't grown larger.

          Prometheus


          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          >
          > Prometheus,
          >  
          > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
          >  
          > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why? 

          The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
          >  
          > Thanks
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > From: prometheus
          >
          >
          > Hello Janice and All,
          > Interesting. I think I'll
          > share some comments
          > to your insights below.
          >
          > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          > "Prometheus,
          >
          > Now that is very interesting.
          >
          > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
          >
          > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
          >
          > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
          >
          > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
          >
          > ME (Prometheus): I know that
          > many of us have had similar
          > experiences of being attacked
          > by negative entities and having
          > to defend ourselves. In this case
          > your RESA was, also, one of these
          > negative beings. Too bad you
          > couldn't protect yourself from
          > them, but it's deceptive when
          > one has placed trust in a RESA
          > by assuming they are always
          > positive and always on your side.
          > They are as closed minded and
          > defensive as is any religionist
          > when protecting their dogma
          > from too much scrutiny.
          >
          > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
          >
          > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
          > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
          > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
          > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
          > the catch is that there's a time limit for
          > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
          > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
          > meditation/contemplation one will change
          > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
          > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
          > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
          > dream and imagine all sorts of things
          > when attention is placed upon these
          > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
          > and every other conman knew and uses
          > and what Klemp continues to use as
          > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
          > the magician uses while the viewer's
          > attention is distracted elsewhere.
          >
          >
          > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
          >
          > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
          > are real. It could very well be that demons
          > are metaphors for those things that bother
          > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
          > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
          > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
          > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
          > have problems since they tend to pick and
          > choose what is easy for them to believe
          > since they tend to be more simple-minded
          > and tend to see most everything in literal,
          > narrow, terms.
          >
          >
          > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
          > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
          >
          > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
          > He had the by-laws changed
          > after he took over from D.G.
          > and neither the President nor
          > the EK Board has any voting
          > authority. Only Klemp can hire
          > and fire. The local Satsang
          > Societies and local Boards have
          > been set up the same (As Above).
          > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
          > fire the local Presidents and
          > Board members and the votes
          > of Board members carry no
          > authority! The RESA has the
          > sole authority, unless, a higher
          > authority at the ESC steps in.
          > However, when this is done
          > it is always with the approval
          > of Klemp and under his direction.
          >
          >
          > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
          >
          > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
          > ECK Master" was the best book written
          > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
          > There were three interviews done around
          > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
          > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
          > is that after all of these years he's still
          > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
          > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
          > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
          > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
          > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
          > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
          > 16 years old when he, first, went from
          > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
          > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
          > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
          > comments about how he confused things
          > and screwed up paperwork so that he
          > could take it easy during the start of
          > WWII showed a level of subversion and
          > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
          > accomplish!
          >
          > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
          >
          > ME: I think that we all have to get
          > over the guilt and shame of being
          > tricked. Look at all of those who
          > belong to a religion and donate
          > time and money in order to get
          > their "feel good" fix. Religions
          > are types of opiates... Eckankar
          > too! People need to believe in
          > something that can give them
          > hope and to help them to maintain
          > a positive outlook. And, conmen
          > know what people want and need.
          > Attitude is, also, important but
          > there's a fine line between being
          > positive and being delusional.
          > Sometimes it's difficult to know
          > where to draw the line and some
          > of us have more difficulty with
          > seeing the good versus seeing
          > the bad. However, I don't think
          > that seeing the glass half-empty
          > is always wrong, but it does present
          > more of a challenge to overcome.
          >
          > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
          > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
          >
          > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
          > ever needed to jump off a bridge
          > and do a strip tease at an airport
          > and choose jail or a mental institution
          > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
          > was a liar up to the moment of his
          > untimely death and, thus, was not
          > a "spiritual being." It was all about
          > him. Besides, many people have
          > done stupid things when confused
          > with life and have sought "spiritual
          > solutions." If one chose to, one could
          > claim that their mental missteps
          > and episodes were "spiritual
          > experiences" as Klemp has done.
          > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
          > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
          > excuse his mental confusion.
          > After all, HK's the leader of a
          > church and has to be above
          > and beyond reproach. It's a
          > pretend game where he has
          > to, partially, buy into the hype
          > in order to seem authentic.
          >
          > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
          >
          > ME: I, too, know and remember some
          > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
          > as long as they don't know who I am.
          > That could/would change I'm sure.
          > They would feel betrayed and insulted
          > and I could understand that, however,
          > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
          > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
          > not due to Eckankar or because of
          > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
          > That crap just gets in the way and
          > causes more codependency. Any
          > growth or realization leading to
          > an expanded awareness is learned
          > and earned by the individual. It's
          > their own personal and private
          > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
          > whatever one wants to call this
          > divine essence, or not, that leads
          > to a divine knowingness and to
          > contentment!
          >
          > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
          >
          > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
          > while knowing about the deceptions
          > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
          > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
          > why throw the baby out with the
          > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
          > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
          > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
          > works why complain? H.I.s have
          > put blinders on in order to stay
          > the course and maintain their
          > prestigious positions which took
          > them decades of time and money
          > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
          > part, HK's RESA structure and the
          > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
          > that did the same... picked and
          > chose what they wanted to follow
          > and believe. However, that's not
          > the way Eckankar is supposed to
          > work. One is supposed to take
          > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
          > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
          > only the best from all of the other
          > religions and experts, etc. in order
          > to create (or bring forth) the EK
          > dogma to the modern Western
          > world. Thus, how can one pick
          > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
          > relevant? If a person is not consciously
          > following the guidance and the will
          > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
          > they are heretics!
          >
          > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
          >
          > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
          > Humans are social animals
          > and most like to follow in
          > one way or another because
          > it's easier to follow than to
          > lead. Being a follower requires
          > less thought and energy. It's
          > less demanding, less consuming,
          > and is less stressful. It is true
          > that the Higher one is with
          > initiations, years, and titles
          > the more lost that individual
          > is. They've bought into it
          > to the extreme. Look at Marge
          > Klemp! However, the ones
          > to really feel sorry for are those
          > ESC staffers who know it's all
          > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
          > but they have to put on an act
          > in order to keep their jobs,
          > health care, retirement, etc.
          >
          >
          > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
          >
          > ME: Doug Marman is an old
          > friend of Klemp's who's an
          > apologist for Eckankar. I think
          > he's a 7th. He's got some books
          > out there that have overlooked
          > many facts and are based upon
          > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
          > however, is that Doug's stated
          > that Twitchell lied about traveling
          > to Paris, France to visit his sister
          > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
          > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
          > was probably made up by Twitchell.
          > After all, PT needed to have
          > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
          > his real master, initiate him.
          > Thus, PT created RT in order to
          > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
          > has admitted that Twitchell
          > created the Mahanta title in
          > January 1969. Yet, Marman
          > omits all of this information
          > in his books!
          >
          > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
          >
          > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
          >
          > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
          >
          > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
          > It was interesting for me to
          > comment.
          >
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          >
          > This is an entertaining approach.
          >
          > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
        • etznab@aol.com
          I have the information recorded someplace about Marman s Rebazar Tarzs comments. I believe it s on a.r.e. someplace. Give me some time to find it ... if you
          Message 4 of 14 , May 5 12:06 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            I have the information recorded someplace about Marman's Rebazar Tarzs
            comments. I believe it's on a.r.e. someplace. Give me some time to find
            it ... if you don't find it sooner.


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thu, May 3, 2012 4:28 pm
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
            (Revisited)







            Prometheus,
             
            You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me
            peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for
            being such a wise soul.
             
            Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted
            that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The
            circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced
            eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an
            organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more
            people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org
            is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by
            counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
             
            Thanks




            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
            (Revisited)
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM


             
            Hello Janice and All,
            Interesting. I think I'll
            share some comments
            to your insights below.

            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            "Prometheus,

            Now that is very interesting.

            I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so
            before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling
            in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My
            experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I
            heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know
            it started with a P.

            Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and
            then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I
            was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It
            was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly
            looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at
            me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I
            told it to get out now and never come back. It did.

            Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as
            being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams
            were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my
            favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found
            it very confusing to have these dreams.

            I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term
            relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that
            got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings
            since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true
            beauty in the teachings."

            ME (Prometheus): I know that
            many of us have had similar
            experiences of being attacked
            by negative entities and having
            to defend ourselves. In this case
            your RESA was, also, one of these
            negative beings. Too bad you
            couldn't protect yourself from
            them, but it's deceptive when
            one has placed trust in a RESA
            by assuming they are always
            positive and always on your side.
            They are as closed minded and
            defensive as is any religionist
            when protecting their dogma
            from too much scrutiny.

            "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it
            attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading
            all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another
            year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack
            seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of
            eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive
            thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I
            wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to
            them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many
            occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be
            respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories
            about the personal lives of other eckist."

            ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
            Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
            ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
            until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
            the catch is that there's a time limit for
            being skeptical. True, when one seeks
            the "Truth" via introspection and uses
            meditation/contemplation one will change
            and see with new eyes, but that's not due
            to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
            tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
            dream and imagine all sorts of things
            when attention is placed upon these
            areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
            and every other conman knew and uses
            and what Klemp continues to use as
            a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
            the magician uses while the viewer's
            attention is distracted elsewhere.


            "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind
            eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with
            demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have
            always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or
            demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say,
            I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't
            have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious
            hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature
            of eckankar."

            ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
            are real. It could very well be that demons
            are metaphors for those things that bother
            and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
            and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
            all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
            This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
            have problems since they tend to pick and
            choose what is easy for them to believe
            since they tend to be more simple-minded
            and tend to see most everything in literal,
            narrow, terms.


            "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and
            he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for
            the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
            see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest
            problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing
            using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even
            looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very
            intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like
            twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for
            spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As
            long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was
            easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate
            eckankar."

            ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
            He had the by-laws changed
            after he took over from D.G.
            and neither the President nor
            the EK Board has any voting
            authority. Only Klemp can hire
            and fire. The local Satsang
            Societies and local Boards have
            been set up the same (As Above).
            Thus, the RESAs can hire and
            fire the local Presidents and
            Board members and the votes
            of Board members carry no
            authority! The RESA has the
            sole authority, unless, a higher
            authority at the ESC steps in.
            However, when this is done
            it is always with the approval
            of Klemp and under his direction.


            "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by
            twitchell and others that the average person would think is not
            spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great
            power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been
            removed from print."

            ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
            ECK Master" was the best book written
            depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
            There were three interviews done around
            June 1971 while PT was the full blown
            self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
            is that after all of these years he's still
            lying about his past. Klemp has stated
            on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
            and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
            Who's Who and had never traveled all that
            far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
            1971 interview), is saying he was almost
            16 years old when he, first, went from
            Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
            Sudar Singh. There are more examples
            that are even more outlandish. Paul's
            comments about how he confused things
            and screwed up paperwork so that he
            could take it easy during the start of
            WWII showed a level of subversion and
            sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
            accomplish!

            "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so
            confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit
            nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable
            eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it
            was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of
            eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more
            money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that
            although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a
            single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I
            wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of
            myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people
            feel dumb, gullible and used."

            ME: I think that we all have to get
            over the guilt and shame of being
            tricked. Look at all of those who
            belong to a religion and donate
            time and money in order to get
            their "feel good" fix. Religions
            are types of opiates... Eckankar
            too! People need to believe in
            something that can give them
            hope and to help them to maintain
            a positive outlook. And, conmen
            know what people want and need.
            Attitude is, also, important but
            there's a fine line between being
            positive and being delusional.
            Sometimes it's difficult to know
            where to draw the line and some
            of us have more difficulty with
            seeing the good versus seeing
            the bad. However, I don't think
            that seeing the glass half-empty
            is always wrong, but it does present
            more of a challenge to overcome.

            "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I
            am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of
            them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I
            was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental
            conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this
            great living eck master help them over come these things or at least
            help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master
            had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is
            necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp
            describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with
            a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in
            public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed
            the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was
            woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary ordeal? Did he
            go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes
            and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"

            ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
            ever needed to jump off a bridge
            and do a strip tease at an airport
            and choose jail or a mental institution
            in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
            was a liar up to the moment of his
            untimely death and, thus, was not
            a "spiritual being." It was all about
            him. Besides, many people have
            done stupid things when confused
            with life and have sought "spiritual
            solutions." If one chose to, one could
            claim that their mental missteps
            and episodes were "spiritual
            experiences" as Klemp has done.
            Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
            hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
            excuse his mental confusion.
            After all, HK's the leader of a
            church and has to be above
            and beyond reproach. It's a
            pretend game where he has
            to, partially, buy into the hype
            in order to seem authentic.

            "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who
            appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well
            adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this
            article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is
            possible to grow in eckankar."

            ME: I, too, know and remember some
            H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
            as long as they don't know who I am.
            That could/would change I'm sure.
            They would feel betrayed and insulted
            and I could understand that, however,
            that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
            To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
            not due to Eckankar or because of
            inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
            That crap just gets in the way and
            causes more codependency. Any
            growth or realization leading to
            an expanded awareness is learned
            and earned by the individual. It's
            their own personal and private
            relationship to the Holy Spirit or
            whatever one wants to call this
            divine essence, or not, that leads
            to a divine knowingness and to
            contentment!

            "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came
            from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high
            initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply
            accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that
            the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed
            relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can
            use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings
            being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which
            ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth
            wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as
            needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this
            concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be
            knowingly condoned."

            ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
            while knowing about the deceptions
            and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
            if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
            why throw the baby out with the
            (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
            nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
            of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
            works why complain? H.I.s have
            put blinders on in order to stay
            the course and maintain their
            prestigious positions which took
            them decades of time and money
            to obtain. Many have rejected, in
            part, HK's RESA structure and the
            ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
            that did the same... picked and
            chose what they wanted to follow
            and believe. However, that's not
            the way Eckankar is supposed to
            work. One is supposed to take
            the bait and swallow it hook, line,
            and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
            only the best from all of the other
            religions and experts, etc. in order
            to create (or bring forth) the EK
            dogma to the modern Western
            world. Thus, how can one pick
            and chose when it's all, supposedly,
            relevant? If a person is not consciously
            following the guidance and the will
            of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
            they are heretics!

            "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than
            eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as
            greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still
            wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that
            eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel
            for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just
            remember the good and bless them in my heart."

            ME: True! It's nice to belong.
            Humans are social animals
            and most like to follow in
            one way or another because
            it's easier to follow than to
            lead. Being a follower requires
            less thought and energy. It's
            less demanding, less consuming,
            and is less stressful. It is true
            that the Higher one is with
            initiations, years, and titles
            the more lost that individual
            is. They've bought into it
            to the extreme. Look at Marge
            Klemp! However, the ones
            to really feel sorry for are those
            ESC staffers who know it's all
            a sham and Klemp is a poser,
            but they have to put on an act
            in order to keep their jobs,
            health care, retirement, etc.


            "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I
            will look them up but any info any of you can share would be
            appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are
            these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an
            eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."

            ME: Doug Marman is an old
            friend of Klemp's who's an
            apologist for Eckankar. I think
            he's a 7th. He's got some books
            out there that have overlooked
            many facts and are based upon
            lies and hearsay. What's funny,
            however, is that Doug's stated
            that Twitchell lied about traveling
            to Paris, France to visit his sister
            when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
            And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
            was probably made up by Twitchell.
            After all, PT needed to have
            someone other than Kirpal Singh,
            his real master, initiate him.
            Thus, PT created RT in order to
            initiate himself. Plus, Marman
            has admitted that Twitchell
            created the Mahanta title in
            January 1969. Yet, Marman
            omits all of this information
            in his books!

            "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a
            private person, I felt a need to write it.

            Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.

            May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual
            experiences."

            ME: Thanks for sharing this.
            It was interesting for me to
            comment.


            prometheus wrote:

            This is an entertaining approach.

            http://www.scribd.com
            /doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

            Prometheus
          • postekcon
            Ekult was born in the psychic era of the 1960s, TM (transcendental meditation), visiting Ashrams by pop groups such as The Beatles, and even Paul Twitchell!
            Message 5 of 14 , May 5 7:20 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Ekult was born in the psychic era of the 1960s, TM (transcendental meditation), visiting Ashrams by pop groups such as The Beatles, and even Paul Twitchell!

              World consciousness has since moved on, but ekult is still stuck in its roots. This is why it is unable to recruit from populations today. It is no longer 'current'!

              Ekult's foundation was built upon conjured-up entities, they called them 'masters'. These 'masters' were brought into manifestation and are solely kept in manifestation today by the constant focus of attention of ekult followers. Simply withdraw this attention- nada 'masters' and nada manifestations!

              But more importantly, the mahanta entity (created 1969), is the psychic engine which sucks ekult followers dry of their energies. This is why HK constantly demands: think of me; think of me; think of me all the time! This is one modus operandi of how the energy is transferred, others are via the 'initiation' process and 'surrender'.

              Should an ekult follower withdraw their energy, or leave the movement, to explain in simplistic terms; the mahanta entity is most displeased at its pending demise, and what we might call a psychic attack ensues.

              -Postekcon


              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Prometheus,
              >  
              > Now that is very interesting. 
              >  
              >  I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out.  I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy.  My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and  I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later.  I know it started with a P.  Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness.  This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake.  The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp.  It was a strong  male voice.  A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed.  In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back.  It did.  Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con
              > artist.  The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so.  While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character.  He seemed the most spiritual at the time.  I found it very confusing to have these dreams.   I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate.   I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa.  I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist.  I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings.   
              >  
              > And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down.  I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist.  It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person.  I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings.  It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly.  I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions.  Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist.    
              >  
              >  I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons.  I am not sure demons are real and separate entities.  I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if  I  read what they have to say, I  dismiss a lot of it.  If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist.   This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar. 
              >  
              >  I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good.  I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups.  I really don't s
              >  see anything really outstanding about klemp at all.  That was my biggest problem with eckankar.  When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man.  He even looked miserable.  I saw no power.  He wasn't charismatic.  He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see.  He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical.  As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar. 
              >  
              >  It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual.  I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print. 
              >  
              >  I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things.  Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated.  I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me.  They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence.  I wasn't doing that.  I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar.  Well, not that I know of anyway.  Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest.  I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member.  Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used.
              >  
              > Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy.  I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems.  Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot.   Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist.  But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world?    If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being?  Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public?  Not in my opinion anyway.  Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as
              > kind of a necessary ordeal?  Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience? 
              >  
              > I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings.  Some appeared to be well adjusted people.  Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving.  Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar. 
              >  
              >  I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time.  One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest.  I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep.  Also,  if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed.   Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person.  Lies should not be knowingly condoned.
              >  
              >   I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else.  They are under the eckankar spell.  I still wouldn't want contact with them though.  I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them.  It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them.  So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart. 
              >  
              > Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with.  I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated.  Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh?  Are these really old names in eckankar history?    Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article.  The other two appear to be writers. 
              >  
              > Telling my experience wasn't easy for me.  Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it. 
              >  
              > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus. 
              >  
              > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences.
              >  
              >
              >
              > --- On Thu, 5/3/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 12:29 AM
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > This is an entertaining approach.
              >
              > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
            • etznab18
              Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? Some select trivia
              Message 6 of 14 , May 5 7:50 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

                To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

                (1)

                Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

                The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

                http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                (2)

                July 2001:

                "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

                Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                (3)

                July 2003:

                Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                What are your on that stuff ?
                I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
                It's all a matter of perspective.
                I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
                On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                (4) February 2004:

                "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                (5)

                March 2007:

                [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
                Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
                I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                >
                > Prometheus,
                >  
                > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
                >  
                > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
                >  
                > Thanks
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                >
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                > Hello Janice and All,
                > Interesting. I think I'll
                > share some comments
                > to your insights below.
                >
                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                > "Prometheus,
                >
                > Now that is very interesting.
                >
                > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                >
                > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                >
                > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                >
                > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                >
                > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                > many of us have had similar
                > experiences of being attacked
                > by negative entities and having
                > to defend ourselves. In this case
                > your RESA was, also, one of these
                > negative beings. Too bad you
                > couldn't protect yourself from
                > them, but it's deceptive when
                > one has placed trust in a RESA
                > by assuming they are always
                > positive and always on your side.
                > They are as closed minded and
                > defensive as is any religionist
                > when protecting their dogma
                > from too much scrutiny.
                >
                > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
                >
                > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                > meditation/contemplation one will change
                > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                > when attention is placed upon these
                > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                > and every other conman knew and uses
                > and what Klemp continues to use as
                > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                > the magician uses while the viewer's
                > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                >
                >
                > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
                >
                > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                > are real. It could very well be that demons
                > are metaphors for those things that bother
                > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                > have problems since they tend to pick and
                > choose what is easy for them to believe
                > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                > narrow, terms.
                >
                >
                > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
                >
                > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                > He had the by-laws changed
                > after he took over from D.G.
                > and neither the President nor
                > the EK Board has any voting
                > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                > and fire. The local Satsang
                > Societies and local Boards have
                > been set up the same (As Above).
                > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                > fire the local Presidents and
                > Board members and the votes
                > of Board members carry no
                > authority! The RESA has the
                > sole authority, unless, a higher
                > authority at the ESC steps in.
                > However, when this is done
                > it is always with the approval
                > of Klemp and under his direction.
                >
                >
                > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
                >
                > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                > ECK Master" was the best book written
                > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                > There were three interviews done around
                > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                > is that after all of these years he's still
                > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                > comments about how he confused things
                > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                > could take it easy during the start of
                > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                > accomplish!
                >
                > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                >
                > ME: I think that we all have to get
                > over the guilt and shame of being
                > tricked. Look at all of those who
                > belong to a religion and donate
                > time and money in order to get
                > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                > too! People need to believe in
                > something that can give them
                > hope and to help them to maintain
                > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                > know what people want and need.
                > Attitude is, also, important but
                > there's a fine line between being
                > positive and being delusional.
                > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                > where to draw the line and some
                > of us have more difficulty with
                > seeing the good versus seeing
                > the bad. However, I don't think
                > that seeing the glass half-empty
                > is always wrong, but it does present
                > more of a challenge to overcome.
                >
                > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                >
                > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                > and do a strip tease at an airport
                > and choose jail or a mental institution
                > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                > was a liar up to the moment of his
                > untimely death and, thus, was not
                > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                > him. Besides, many people have
                > done stupid things when confused
                > with life and have sought "spiritual
                > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                > claim that their mental missteps
                > and episodes were "spiritual
                > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                > excuse his mental confusion.
                > After all, HK's the leader of a
                > church and has to be above
                > and beyond reproach. It's a
                > pretend game where he has
                > to, partially, buy into the hype
                > in order to seem authentic.
                >
                > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
                >
                > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                > as long as they don't know who I am.
                > That could/would change I'm sure.
                > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                > and I could understand that, however,
                > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                > not due to Eckankar or because of
                > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                > That crap just gets in the way and
                > causes more codependency. Any
                > growth or realization leading to
                > an expanded awareness is learned
                > and earned by the individual. It's
                > their own personal and private
                > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                > whatever one wants to call this
                > divine essence, or not, that leads
                > to a divine knowingness and to
                > contentment!
                >
                > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
                >
                > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                > while knowing about the deceptions
                > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                > why throw the baby out with the
                > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                > works why complain? H.I.s have
                > put blinders on in order to stay
                > the course and maintain their
                > prestigious positions which took
                > them decades of time and money
                > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                > that did the same... picked and
                > chose what they wanted to follow
                > and believe. However, that's not
                > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                > work. One is supposed to take
                > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                > only the best from all of the other
                > religions and experts, etc. in order
                > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                > dogma to the modern Western
                > world. Thus, how can one pick
                > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                > following the guidance and the will
                > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                > they are heretics!
                >
                > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                >
                > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                > Humans are social animals
                > and most like to follow in
                > one way or another because
                > it's easier to follow than to
                > lead. Being a follower requires
                > less thought and energy. It's
                > less demanding, less consuming,
                > and is less stressful. It is true
                > that the Higher one is with
                > initiations, years, and titles
                > the more lost that individual
                > is. They've bought into it
                > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                > Klemp! However, the ones
                > to really feel sorry for are those
                > ESC staffers who know it's all
                > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                > but they have to put on an act
                > in order to keep their jobs,
                > health care, retirement, etc.
                >
                >
                > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                >
                > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                > friend of Klemp's who's an
                > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                > out there that have overlooked
                > many facts and are based upon
                > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                > however, is that Doug's stated
                > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                > After all, PT needed to have
                > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                > his real master, initiate him.
                > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                > has admitted that Twitchell
                > created the Mahanta title in
                > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                > omits all of this information
                > in his books!
                >
                > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
                >
                > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                >
                > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
                >
                > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                > It was interesting for me to
                > comment.
                >
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                >
                > This is an entertaining approach.
                >
                > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
              • prometheus_973
                BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus: A Calm And Peaceful Message For All Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is
                Message 7 of 14 , May 5 9:26 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus:



                  A Calm And Peaceful Message For All


                  Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is being
                  typed. I have really been for the most part enjoying the dialogue on this message
                  board.

                  I would like to encourage Doug Marman to continue posting here. I think
                  gradually we can all learn something that will help us move toward a greater
                  understanding.

                  We can do this together regardless of religious belief and possibly emerge in
                  a place with no fences. I have many friends from different beliefs and something
                  I have noticed in the last 10 years or so is that our differences don't separate
                  us as much as they used to. There is a coming together of sorts and a move
                  towards higher conciousness.

                  I have seen this come about through heartfelt sharing of ideas.

                  ***A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still an Eckist?

                  I send all who read this my love

                  Freeman


                  Joey Ward
                  02/09/2004
                  Top

                  Thanks Doug



                  Thank you very much for the reply to the 5 questions that I asked of you. Also
                  thanks for looking through Paul Twitchell's writings and finding the same thing that I
                  found out about Paul not using the term MAHANTA until January 1969. It means a lot to me that you answered that question I ask a while back. I join Eckankar because the
                  Mahanta was the highest state of consciousness in this world and in the inner
                  worlds so said Paul Twitchell the 971st MAHANTA (the title he gave himself). I
                  still wonder why Paul would say such a thing. To me this is the biggest lie that
                  any person could say. To make up a line of Mahanta Masters, (highest state of
                  consciousness and God made flesh) what was Paul thinking of. O' well !!! I
                  guess the next time I see Paul in the astral library I will give him a kick in
                  the pants.

                  Thanks Doug,
                  Joey Ward

                  PS..... Doug, next time you see Harold, could you tell him that Joey would like
                  to see Him start posting on The Truth Seeker Bulletin Board. It sure would be grand of
                  Harold to do so. Thanks again for your help.


                  Seeker For The Last Time
                  02/08/2004
                  Top

                  Another X`Eckist Story



                  I joined Eckankar in the early 80's, attracted partly because of their concept
                  of Soul Travel and left in the mid-90's. I had become a 3rd Initiate by that time. Because of
                  my outspoken aggressive remarks and asking too many questions about concealed facts about the organization, many wondered why the LEM had allowed me to reach that level.

                  Initiations and secret words and the idea that we need a Master, mean nothing to
                  me in this life because in my different existences I was connected to many of these
                  concepts. There were times I needed these secret words and initiations and a Master and
                  for those who need them now, it is OK. It is something many have to experience, if not in
                  this lifetime, in a different one.

                  In the mid-80's, I posted a few remarks on ARE. This was a good lesson for me,
                  because some of the die-hard ECKists attempted to attack me with their "sword from the
                  Sugmad" and "weed me out of the garden of ECK." I had no grudge against them because I
                  knew they would learn to open their minds. At the time, they believed in what they
                  did and that it was the right thing for them to do. I accepted it.

                  I hadn't been on ARE for a long time but a few weeks ago I was impelled to go on
                  it and out popped the information concerning Ford Johnson's book. In the past,
                  ECKist would say it was the ECK or LEM. I ordered the book, which I am enjoying now.
                  It brought back some memories of Eckankar.

                  I was very surprised to see some of the die-hard and long-standing
                  ECKists, including High Initiates, especially Nathan. This was a shock and it takes a lot to shock me. I am very happy for Nathan because we had communicated in the past. Nathan would make a very high class lawyer in this life(have no idea what he does). Boy, did he
                  swing that sword for Eckankar. He left nothing standing. But that was then and now is now.
                  I am happy, Nathan that you allowed yourself to open and move beyond the garden of
                  ECK. There is so much more to learn.

                  To some Eckankar is still a beautiful garden and I can respect that. I would like to stress that I have nothing against Eckankar and similar religions. They may be needed
                  for souls to grow.

                  I enjoyed reading the comments on this board..and I'll be back when I have time.

                  I'll sign off with the name I used to use on ARE - Seeker, for the last time.



                  Doug Marman
                  02/08/2004
                  Top

                  A Few Responses



                  I've received a number of comments to my last post.

                  I will respond to some of the questions and comments.

                  To Degar:

                  I agree with you that no church, book or religion can replace the part of us
                  that knows. We also both agree on the importance of fearlessness in seeing
                  truth, and the importance of teachings with heart.

                  My lights are fine, as are yours.


                  To Joey Ward:

                  I don't do yes or no questions, but I will try to keep my answers short:

                  1. Did Paul Twitchell have the highest state of consciousness as the Godman
                  as he told the world through his writings?

                  I don't know how anyone could say who was highest or who is even higher than
                  another. So, I would never say such a thing, myself. I don't even think having the
                  highest state of consciousness should be anyone's goal. A person can gain a high state of
                  consciousness and be unable to make a living here in the physical. That's not very useful.

                  2. Does Harold Klemp have the highest state of consciousness as the Godman
                  as he is telling the world throught his writings?

                  Same as above, however, I will add this. I agree with the Sufis who say that there is what they call The Pole of The World. The Sufi teacher Ibn al' Arabi points out that this same principle applies at every level of human affairs. Another Sufi put it this way: "Just as there is someone who acts as the pole for the whole of humanity, so there are poles for every faith, community, occupation - even down to the level of towns."

                  We sense when we are near such people since they seem to represent and carry the
                  whole of the town or company or faith that they are a part of. Every age has
                  those who carry the whole of things for the world at every level. We connect to that
                  whole through their vision.

                  However, I don't believe in saying who the Pole of the World is, since everyone
                  needs to find this out for themselves. In fact, in most times through history the Pole
                  of The World was hidden. The Sufis say this as well.

                  3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?

                  Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes.

                  4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on
                  them as if the Eck Master were saying them?

                  Yes.

                  5. Who do you Trust to tell the truth about Spiritual truths? Pick one only.
                  [Names omitted]

                  I see all teachings as mines. The good ones are gold mines, but they all need to be sorted through to find the pure gold. I have found no outer teachings that are pure gold.

                  The only place to test the gold is within ourselves, when we try to use it in our lives.

                  You might point to an outer person. I would rather point to our inner knowingness to recognize truth. We often do pick it up from others, however.


                  To Journey:

                  You asked: "If you are not trying to undermine Ford and his book "Confessions of
                  a God Seeker," why did you give such a negative opinion about the book in The
                  Chanhassen Villager last November?"

                  If you read my comments to the Chanhassen Villager, just like in my last post, it is focused on the errors in what David Lane has reported and the unfortunate fact that Ford repeated these as if they were facts as David did. I am absolutely amazed at how far the distortion of truths from David Lane has spread. I was disappointed that the newspaper had not done better research, and that Ford had not as well, especially since David Lane himself suggested to Ford that he study my book more thoroughly to see what had been discussed via the Internet.

                  I am just as amazed at how quickly and completely people assume that I am some
                  kind of pawn in a battle or fighting some kind of war against Ford for pointing out
                  the errors. I guess this goes to show how far off perceptions of someone else's motivations
                  can be. People will imagine what my motivations are, but they are a million miles from
                  the mark.

                  I do agree that some people like to win their arguments no matter what, and since I have no interest in that, this is exactly why I have said I would say no more about such things unless folks here were interested. From the responses I've seen, there doesn't seem to be much interest in what I was writing about.

                  I think you are right that we should all look at our motivations. I have certainly done so and have tried only to offer help in clearing up some of the confusions that have been going on for a while by getting to the facts. I have tried to stay far from criticizing anyone else's beliefs, although I do think some friendly dialogue in this area is good.

                  I think it is just as important to look at the motivations for bringing up my personal motivations. I have not questioned Ford's motivations, nor would I. I think his intentions are sincere. Getting stuck over another person's so-called intentions is often the way our Censor stops us from seeing another person's point of view fairly.

                  When we get so attached to our cause, anyone who says anything that appears to
                  interfere with our cause becomes or enemy. The motivations of our enemies are always wrong in our minds. Ask them and they would say the same about their enemies.

                  It is a sad fact that public dialogue over religious matters is almost impossible these days.
                  This was not true in America during its early days. Public dialogue was often lively and contentious, but never came to people disowning their neighbors or rejecting their families and friends like it does today.

                  As far as I am concerned, we are all friends here with a common interest in Spiritual Truth.
                  That is how I see it. And we will each decide for ourselves what is true, as we should.


                  To DD:

                  You wrote: "You spend all of your time chipping away at the edges of the argument,
                  finding miniscule points of contention (a minor date discrepancy here, a location there)
                  but not once do you address the underlying core truth that is being and has been
                  expressed here from the very beginning."

                  Exactly right. So why is everyone getting so worked up about it? Why is no one
                  simply acknowledging the minor points and letting it go? These are not core truths,
                  just a matter of correcting errors in fact.

                  No, I don't agree that my "can't we all get along" message doesn't help us get at the truth. In fact, let me say it this way: If we can not listen to those who see things differently than we do, then we will never see Truth. This doesn't mean we should all agree, but it certainly
                  does mean that we should be able to hold respectful and friendly conversations
                  with those who have a different way of seeing things. We should be open to learning from
                  others.

                  You wrote: "Your method is to find a few unimportant discrepancies and use them
                  as an attempt to discredit the entire revelation of overall truth discovered."

                  This is incorrect. I am only trying to point out the errors. I am not trying to discredit the entire message. But clearly, after we have seen the facts for what they are, the overall picture does change somewhat. That's natural.

                  Since so many of David Lane's claims are in fact not based on facts at all, but merely
                  on imagined intentions and speculations, I have also offered other possible interpretations.
                  My point is not that David's guesses are wrong and mine are right, but simply to
                  show how widely interpretations can vary when there are no facts.

                  You are the one who is painting a picture of black and white, not I. I don't see David
                  or Ford as all wrong, nor as all right. I say let's find the gold wherever we look.
                  Why blame anyone for the fact that everything they offer is not pure gold?

                  Lastly, you suggest that I am defending a teaching and that I am an apologist.
                  Okay, perhaps I am. I don't feel that is what I am doing, but I can see it would
                  look that way to you. But surely you see that your comments are the same. You are
                  also defending your beliefs. In fact, everyone who has responded to my post on this
                  bulletin board has picked at what I would call minor, technical details and
                  completely avoided my points. This doesn't mean you or anyone else here is any less
                  sincere, does it?


                  To Nacal:

                  You asked: "Where do you ever give a reference or a quote from your sources?"

                  They are in my book, and have been thoroughly discussed on alt.religion.eckankar
                  and can be found in the records there. I would be glad to present them here as
                  well, if anyone was interested.

                  You asked: "Why have you returned without answering the questions posed to you
                  by site members in previous postings? When did Twitchell first write about the
                  mahanta?

                  Was it 1969 as one site member has stated?"

                  I answered last time that I had just moved to a new home and my files were still
                  packed in boxes. They are still packed in boxes, but a few are handy so I pulled out
                  Paul's old Wisdom Notes and Illuminated Way Letters.

                  You seem to be right. Paul didn't use the word, Mahanta, until the January 1969
                  Illuminated Way Letter and the February 1969 Wisdom Note. Before then he mainly used, The
                  Master, Spiritual Traveler, Teacher, etc. Not even the mention of Living ECK
                  Master very often, although Outer Master and living Master were mentioned often.

                  This is interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

                  You wrote: "You are also being untruthful when you say that you, "… have no
                  desire to interfere with the beliefs of anyone."

                  And how would you know that? You seem to know my own desires and intentions
                  better than I do. Clearly I will need to ask you next time what my intentions
                  and desires are.

                  This is foolishness. Do you realize how hard it is to know the desires of your
                  own children?

                  How often do parents misunderstand what their children are trying to do? Have
                  you never had this happen to you when you were a child? Yet you think you can
                  actually guess my desires, when you don't even know me? Have we even met?

                  Why do people spend so much time imagining they KNOW the intentions of those
                  they disagree with?

                  I see this with ECKists just as often as with David Lane and the group here. So,
                  I'm not picking on this group. I see it as a real trap and an excuse to justify
                  rejecting what another person has to say.

                  You wrote: "You also claim to "have enjoyed the conversations on this bulletin
                  board" and yet you only respond to selective questions."

                  That's right. That was what I came here to share, after Ford claimed that I was
                  not after the kind of truth that could be discussed openly and that my book was
                  not about encouraging open dialogue. I came here for just that kind of dialogue,
                  but guess what? No one here wants to discuss the facts or the errors openly.

                  If I were Ford, I would care enough to make sure the facts I was using were
                  accurate. I thought, especially as a lawyer, he would want to know.

                  You wrote: "You attempt to confuse (like Paul and Harold) by twisting and
                  abusing truth in order to blind the reader with your distortions and illusions of reality."

                  If you really believe this, then why not point out a quote where you feel this
                  is what I am attempting to do, rather than making broad accusations about my
                  motivations? Why not just address directly what what I am saying and point out
                  how you see it differently? I have no intention of twisting the truth in anyway
                  at all.

                  You wrote: "Is what Harold's teaches (Eckankar) a myth?

                  "Since I brought the subject up can you tell me if the Holocaust was a myth or
                  not?

                  "Some things ARE black and white so just give a yes or no answer to the
                  previously mentioned two questions. Please, no long-winded explanation, yes or
                  no to each question."

                  Sorry, I don't do yes or no answers, but I'll be glad to discuss your questions.
                  Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught about Eckankar is a myth. Yes, I think
                  a lot of what people think about the Holocaust is made up of myth as well. This
                  doesn't mean that the Holocaust didn't happen, or that many of the stories or
                  facts are lies. It just means that people often try to simplify things.

                  History is largely made up of myth. There are a million personal individual
                  stories about World War II, for example, yet the history books treat it as one
                  thing that happened. The people who go through it don't see it the way the
                  history books do. They were there, but the myths are what we can deal with to
                  understand. Otherwise it is too complex.

                  You wrote: "Doug, instead of focusing on David Lane or Ford's book let's now
                  focus on the writings of Twitchell and Klemp and see where we can find
                  inaccuracies, or is the world still flat to you? Did you like the posting from
                  the May-June-July 1971 Mystic World about Twitchell? "No one really knows for
                  sure where he came from, when he was born, or if his true name is even Paul
                  Twitchell. How long he has been on this Earth planet is not known." Or, how
                  about this quote from the same article, "Paul is known to the world as Peddar
                  Zaskq, which is his real name, is an occidental." Wasn't this also his name for
                  his last incarnation and his spiritual name?"

                  Obviously we now know where he came from and was born (Paducah, Kentucky) and
                  that his true name was not Paul Twitchell, but was John Paul Twitchell. We also
                  now know when he was born (1909). Paul certainly didn't ever talk about these
                  things, nor would he answer questions about them directly, and I think he liked
                  the idea that his past was mysterious, and he helped to create this mysterious
                  past. Yes, Paul is only known to the world as Peddar Zaskq because he told the
                  world that was his spiritual name.

                  And yes, this is the kind of writing that is mythological. Did you think I would
                  say something else?

                  You went on: "Let's now go back up to the preceding paragraph since you seem to
                  claim to like "facts" (why don't you give your sources?). "But it is a fact that
                  his Master Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan lama, who appears to be in his
                  early forties, was a young man when Columbus discovered America." Now, was that
                  really a "fact," or a delusional belief, or a deliberate lie? Or, is it that,
                  "There is a need of the people to believe in the magic of a saviour, and Sri
                  Paul Twitchell knows this and acts out the part" (same article)."

                  It certainly is no fact, since there are no records nor anything else to prove
                  that Rebazar Tarzs even exists, never mind how old he really is. However, there
                  is no proof that it is a lie, either. It certainly sounds far-fetched. But I
                  don't think the belief in saints, saviors and spiritual teachers comes from the
                  desire to believe in magic. I think it comes from the innate memory within Soul
                  that there is a truth and meaning to life that most of the world seems to have
                  forgotten, but some remember.

                  As Rumi once said, the reason that false gold is so popular is because there is
                  such a thing as real gold.

                  Of course, mixed with this is that many people want a father figure, or want
                  someone to take care of them and tell them what is right and wrong.

                  You wrote: "The sad thing is that there is no freedom in religion… there is only
                  control through the use of fear and surrender of the common sense of having an
                  open mind, and of course, the dangled carrot of initiation and hope."

                  It certainly seems that way. To me, without freedom there is no point to a
                  spiritual teaching. It is simply a social group. There is more peer pressure and
                  more influence from the people who want everyone to be harmonious rather than
                  speaking honestly, than control from above, but in general I agree with you.

                  You wrote: "Paul states, "Ramaji was one of the first initiates in the ancient
                  Order of the Vairagi." It seems Paul has a problem spelling his name. "Ji" is a
                  Hindu suffix used to denote respect and affection. But, Paul is not speaking of
                  Rama."

                  Why do you think that Paul is referring to someone different than Rama? The
                  Hindus often add the "ji" to the end of a name, and sometimes it is written with
                  only the "j". Take the name Shamus-i-Tabriz. Generally this is spelled, Shams of
                  Tabriz. Same person. Jalalludin Rumi is spelled dozens of ways. Sometimes he is
                  also called Mevlana. Same person. Sometimes it is written Shabda Yoga, sometimes
                  Shabd Yog. Sometimes Yoga is spelled Joga. I interpret this quote from Paul to
                  be referring to the same person as Rama, but if you feel otherwise I would find
                  it interesting to hear why.

                  You asked: "By the way, why has Harold evaded giving his birth date and age?"

                  I don't know. Probably because it is a personal fact that has nothing to do with
                  his role. But maybe it is just a hold-over from Paul. You would have to ask him.
                  My guess is that he doesn't want people holding birthday parties because of his
                  birthdate.

                  You wrote: "Also, why is it Doug that on page 282 that Harold, the mahanta,
                  doesn't even know today about an experience he had in1970. He states, "Was he
                  really an ECK Master? Who can say?" Shouldn't the Master who is greater than the
                  God of all religions know such things?"

                  I would have to read the whole quote in context. It sounds to me as if Harold is
                  asking a rhetorical question. In other words, who can say if he was a Master
                  then?

                  Actually the question I ask is how did Darwin know that he was the Mahanta, or
                  how does Harold know this? Isn't this like any initiate who might think they
                  have gained the next initiation? Isn't this the same question? How do they
                  really know?

                  You ask: "Are the initiations in Eckankar valid as a means to greater spiritual
                  growth over those who are non-eckists? Or, is this a myth too?"

                  I think the initiations are a mixed bag. There is definitely reality to them,
                  from my personal experience. But they have become filled with myths as well. I
                  can tell you that real Self-Realization is rare, HI or not. The initiation level
                  doesn't prove anything. It is more meaningful as a personal matter than a
                  comparison to others. I don't think anyone should be judging another person's
                  worth or truth by what initiation level they are at. Including the Master.

                  You asked: "Paul states on page 136 of Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK
                  Master, "Cause with all of that, see, I write books in series. I have four books
                  that are finished now; well, the Shariyat is a continued writing, but I've got
                  three books actually." So Doug, where's book three? If it wasn't finished why
                  didn't Harold go to the Astral Library to finish it?"

                  Paul wrote a number of the first chapters to book three. I think he got to chapter three or four. That's as far as it has gotten. I think that Harold thought about completing book three but for some reason decided it wasn't his place to do so. I would be surprised if Harold ever finishes book three, or tries to. But you would have to ask him if you wanted to know.

                  You wrote: "Was the "Moon Virus" that Twitchell warned of a myth or a self-promotional lie, or did he make an erroneous assumption or was it just conjecture (page 234 of "Difficulties")? Show me where Kirpal Singh's name is used with Sudar Singh's?"

                  I have no idea where Paul got the idea of the Moon Virus from. He certainly used
                  it to gain some news. It is similar in some ways to the HIV virus in the way it
                  has stumped the scientists, but I have heard no connection to the moon.

                  Here is the first quote of Paul's where he mentions Sudar Singh, from the
                  January 1964 Orion magazine:

                  "I began my study of bilocation under the tutelage of Satguru Sudar Singh, in
                  Allahabad, India. Later, I switched to Sri Kirpal Singh of old Delhi. Both
                  were teaching the Shabda Yoga, that which is called the Yoga of Sound Current. I
                  had to learn to leave my body at will and return, without effort..."


                  Here is another quote from my book:

                  "I have since found two other early articles of Paul's, that show the same
                  thing: An article that ran in early 1966 called, Can You Be In Two Places At The
                  Same Time?, shows Sudar Singh, from Allahabad, India, along with Bernard of
                  England, a Self-Realization Swami who has a retreat in Maryland, Kirpal Singh of
                  Delhi, India, and Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan monk.



                  "The second article was called, The God Eaters, and ran in the November 1964
                  issue of The Psychic Observer. In the article Paul talks about Rebazar Tarzu
                  [sic], who he "made contact with...through bilocation," and Kirpal Singh as his
                  teachers. These examples clearly show that both Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs
                  were referred to, side by side with Kirpal Singh. It was not until late 1966
                  before Paul suddenly stopped referring to Kirpal Singh."



                  You wrote: "You mention that you talked to Patti Simpson and basically she says
                  it was "funny" how Paul would evade giving out information on himself. You wrote
                  that Paul tried to leave information blank "when it came to filling out official
                  forms," but found that, "they would gladly accept whatever he wrote whether it
                  was right or wrong." In truth, Paul intentionally lied and mislead people.
                  Ironically, this is one "fact" that you have supplied to help prove the validity
                  of David Lane's claim! This is also proof that you don't even listen to your own
                  words! Perhaps, this is because your conscious subjective (self) is to evade,
                  and your unconscious objective Self (God-Soul) is to impart truth."


                  If you want to imagine that, go ahead. I think there is a big difference between
                  someone who is intentionally trying to mislead people about their age, and a
                  person who refuses to give out their age. But if you want to say that both are
                  technically lies, that's fine with me. It seems to me that you are just trying
                  to make it look like something it isn't.

                  Remember, the picture that David painted is that Paul lied to Gail about his
                  age, as he had lied about his age his whole life. In fact, Gail knew perfectly
                  well that Paul wasn't giving out his age, and so did everyone else. Pretty
                  different picture if you ask me.

                  Here's a similar example. David was accused of copyright infringment many years
                  ago (ironic, isn't it?). It was over a book written about J R Hinkins group.
                  Under oath he said one thing. In his deposition, also under oath, he said the
                  opposite. The judge politely said that his testimony was untrustworthy. David
                  claims that he was not trying to lie, he just didn't remember it correctly.
                  However, the testimony shows that the first story he told seemed like the one
                  that would best help his case. Later it turned out to be exactly the wrong
                  thing, so when asked the same question in court, he answered the opposite way.
                  He lost his case over this.

                  Would you call that lying? David doesn't. I'll take David's word for it that he
                  just forgot, even though it looks otherwise. I guess that's just how I am.

                  You wrote: "Doug you have imagined facts through your own distorted belief
                  system of myth being reality. You seem to be confused as you spread confusion to
                  others (somewhat like Typhoid Mary).You have no idea of what fact or truth is
                  because you are unable to hear truth."

                  Mighty big claims. Why not just show me the quotes where you think I'm off base
                  and share how you see it? Why imagine that I am unable to see truth?

                  I'm sure I see it differently than you do. But I have few illusions about Paul.
                  My point was to show how many illusions that David had, while claiming
                  otherwise. Ford's book has got them now, too, since he was taken in by David's
                  story. The irony is that those who are most concerned about pointing out the
                  lies and illusions of others are often just as unwilling to admit and correct
                  their own.

                  However, if you feel that I've made any errors, please point them out. David
                  caught a few, and I immediately corrected them. I would like to make my book as
                  accurate as possible, and I'm in the process of making another edit to include
                  the latest information, since we are always learning new things.

                  Thanks for asking specific questions. More of this would make a real dialogue worthwhile. And I am glad to share the specific evidence behind my comments if anyone is
                  interested.

                  Doug.



                  Degar
                  02/08/2004
                  Top

                  Be The Now!!



                  If you are a follower of the Clear Light and Silent Sound, then you follow the
                  natural order of who you really are as Beingness. The secret between the truth
                  and the lie, is intention. Intention is the prime mover of awareness. How many
                  really see themselves as the observer and the observed, the now, the present.
                  Look only to the temple within yourself, no church, building or outer temple
                  will ever point the way. In fact remove or demolish all these objects of glory,
                  pride and self righteousness for in the heart of the now resides the gift.
                  "Remind all those that show you the way to the false temple of mortar and brick
                  that you have out grown their cage and See now with the Spiritual eye only
                  Truth."

                  NO RELIGION can hold GOD to a given doctrine! Even the doctrine of Light and
                  Sound…..

                  Freedom can not be bound and Freedom will destroy all that try to hold it.

                  Man is a funny creature, he seeks the company of the one and only primal cause
                  even until death. He is even willing to kill to be near to it. He believes that
                  distance exists between himself and his Maker and he must make a journey back to
                  the Godhead. Knock, knock, is anyone home? Soul exists because it is GOD. God
                  has never posed the question, "I love Soul". Your Higher Self JUST IS, no more
                  - no less.

                  Wake up!

                  Dance, Sing and Be.

                  "All thing must pass away" – George Harrison

                  Hold on to the social consciousness if you must but as Ford and Gram are saying
                  they only opened the door you must walk through and see Freedom for yourself. Not their
                  truth, but yours.

                  After the Temple of Eck was built, I made a number of visits to it. On one of my
                  visits I noticed that the temples main entrance floor was cracked right down the
                  middle. Eckankar had it repaired, so no one had any idea what had happened. If
                  that had occurred in my life, I would have asked what Spirit was saying to me?
                  Well I did….. What it told me was that the office(ORG) and the temple
                  side(Spiritual) had a major division between them. Another way of seeing it was
                  that the true teachings of Eck were no longer within the organization.

                  Fear is the last thing to go…… Pure awareness of consciousness can only be
                  experienced without fear.

                  The events unfolding before us have the blessing of the Holy Order of the World
                  Adepts or it would not be.

                  This is not an end to something, but more of a beginning.

                  Degar *




                  Kermit
                  02/08/2004
                  Top

                  Solipsist Reprieve: My Story -- Why I Left Eckankar



                  Soul, if It exists, could have entered into the agreement to share the Eckankar
                  dream. The purpose may have been for spiritual experience: to advance
                  spiritually and learn to be of service in a better and higher way and to
                  consciously learn a few other things, like the nature of illusion and deception.
                  But if I believe that soul exists, then I am asking for another round of belief
                  lessons. I had spiritual experiences, but how do I know that they are real now?
                  All I know is that I am here now and even those two adverbs are suspect.

                  Now it is the age of Aquarius and the Piscean age is over. Some astrologers say
                  that the religions of the intercessor between man and God were an aspect of the
                  Piscean phase. It is a strong aspect of the Aquarian age that the veils of the
                  intercessors be lifted. And it implies a dark night for the wizard who commands
                  his followers to "ignore that man behind the curtain." It is a bright day for
                  expose' writers. Since reading the book, I have seen other works that expose
                  Christianity and Judaism. All the political books are pointing out lies told by
                  the governments and the other party and the history books. For the Christians
                  out there: your version of "Confessions" may be the works of Timothy Freke and
                  Peter Gandy. Lies and damn lies. All religions are of the cloth of deception,
                  regardless of whose face is on the master.

                  So it appears that Eckankar has decided to maintain its position as a spiritual
                  middle school. We all saw this coming, felt it in many ways and Ford
                  articulated it for our minds in a way that we could no longer ignore. We knew
                  about David Lane and some of the plagiarism years ago and chose to forgive it.
                  We wondered why Rebazar couldn't appear for a TV spot, if he was so physical.
                  We were uncomfortable about Darwin being written out of history. The
                  restrictive guidelines.

                  When I went to receive my fifth initiation, the internal phrase kept repeating:
                  "The bloom is off the rose. . . the bloom is off the rose." I wondered what
                  that meant, but the meaning is emerging. The days of believing in Santa Clause
                  are past. Time to take the next step in becoming emancipated. Joseph Campbell
                  said that his studies gave him an overview of the myths and religions that
                  precluded his having any spiritual experiences himself. It is like the old
                  saying that he who carved the Buddha cannot worship it.

                  But I had just finished the book and was casting about and asked spirit if it
                  was true. The image of an animated Rebazar peered headfirst into my inner
                  vision and then started to mirror every movement I made. I had never had an
                  experience with him, but the message was that I was doing it and so I might as
                  well quit struggling against the curriculum. "No more Mother Goose stories for
                  you and you can pretty much forget about the tooth fairy," it told me.

                  Now I suspect why Harold is always telling fairy tales. I see an image now of
                  Paul laughing, after telling his audience that only a handful of them would
                  understand what he was trying to say. What if he was trying to say that only
                  deception exists in the world of illusion? Is Harold hinting that the teachings
                  are a fairy tale used to teach a different lesson?

                  Masters and lying liars do not come clean. But there may be more to this
                  learning than is apparent. What if Harold had told us that he had discovered
                  the truth about the whole sham and just said,

                  "Well, you can call me Harold or you can call me Gerald, but you doesn't have to
                  call me Sri anymore." Would that have been masterful? I do not know, but he
                  didn't say that. He built a temple instead.

                  One of the wake-up calls for me was an Ask-the-Master session for RESAs in one
                  of the recent books. Those guys didn't know anything. They were asking
                  questions and Harold was describing worlds and temples and I would like to think
                  that RESAs should have been able to access that information themselves, if the
                  path was working.

                  But no mastership is happening here. With Eckankar producing only two and a
                  half masters in almost 38 years, I was starting to worry that I wasn't on the
                  short list, anyway. We're all better than we were and we are better public
                  speakers, but that is not what we came for.

                  We came onto the path because it promised mastership/enlightenment. One of the
                  unspoken truths is that we don't have a chance of reaching it by way of
                  Eckankar. It has been boiling us like frogs: slowly. By the time we have been
                  around long enough to know that no one is going to go beyond the 8th initiation,
                  except one guy, our minds are no longer independent enough to get that this path
                  to mastership is not working and it not going to work.

                  Now we have talked ourselves out of a way of life. Harold would probably say we
                  have talked ourselves into a Dark Night of Soul. But that's the kind of beating
                  we would be in for if we stayed around.

                  I took a class with a lot of law enforcement types at one time. They said that
                  everyone, except the most committed sociopath, has a need to tell the truth.
                  The body language, tonal patterns and eye movements combine with other
                  unconscious clues to betray a lie or a concealed truth. One way to conceal and
                  deceive is to tell nothing but lies like Kevin Spacey's character in "The Usual
                  Suspects." This may be how Paul Twitchell did it. There is a book about this
                  subject called "Telling Lies" by Paul Ekman. It has been staring at me from my
                  bookshelf for years and it has gradually dawned on me that the title and author
                  may contain a hint.

                  My inner voice says that there is only the one I Am that smears itself across
                  the living tapestry and reabsorbs itself after one lifetime or many. So this
                  baby is going out with the bath water.

                  Thanks for tipping the scales.

                  Kermit



                  Journey
                  02/07/2004
                  Top

                  Reply to GPk: On Unloving Attitudes



                  Dear GPk,

                  As to your unloving and lack of understanding attitude, I based that on what you
                  said, especially in regards to your unkind words to Usually Skeptical.
                  You also seem to be putting down people who are posting here on this message
                  board. You continue to direct negative comments to others on this site. You come
                  across as a very angry person so I am not surprised that my comments bothered
                  you so much. You confused me because you sound like you are still an Eckist in
                  your attacks.

                  You are wrong in assuming I'm stuck/holding on to the teachings of Eckankar. I
                  was not a member that long, but I read all of Harold's transcripts and several
                  other books, attended Satsang classes, etc. From the get-go, it seemed like a
                  lot of double talk and confusing--lots of contradictions. Your postings also
                  attack Ford in that you said he was going to become the leader of a new
                  religion, that would be no different from any other group. I think you are the
                  one hung up on Eckankar. I am glad you are reading Ford's book. Then, I think
                  your comments here would be made with a better perspective, regardless of your
                  take on Ford's writings.

                  It is obvious that the only self awareness that you have ever achieved has been
                  of the little self. You seem to be still experiencing the brain washing of
                  Eckankar. The comments that you have made indicate that you are only aware of
                  the little self, rather than the higher self. Your initiation did not give you
                  self-realization. This is the flaw I see in your reasoning. But this is all
                  understandable because of the length of time you spent in the Eckankar
                  organization--you have more to dump than I do. There is a massive amount of
                  flawed concepts along with certain truths that have been mixed to such a degree
                  that it is almost impossible to decipher it all. In addition to anger, there is
                  fear that there is no truth out there--that you will not be able to find it.
                  This is, perhaps, the root of your negativity that you have lashed out on this
                  site. This is my understanding.

                  Also, I have not touted the degree of my spirituality as you have. I am only a
                  Truth Seeker.

                  Best regards and good reading,
                  Journey



                  Willy
                  02/07/2004
                  Top

                  FS Response To Ecki99 Plus 2 Laws



                  Thanks for the thorough response to the questions raised by Ecki99 and others.
                  As one other book (Christian Bible) often quoted notes "by their fruits ye shall
                  know them". Why do so many Eckists see the activities of HCS and former
                  members of Eckankar as a threat? There are no lawsuits filed, there are no
                  media exposes, there is just the statement of spiritual truths as experienced by
                  those who have taken the next step. There is no massive attempt to force Eck
                  chelas to leave their path, if that is where they are comfortable. To each his
                  own.

                  Harold has made much of Richard Maybury's two laws namely:

                  1. Do all you say you will do. (Your word is your bond, honor it.)
                  2. Do not encroach on others or their property. (Respect the integrity of
                  others.)

                  I really like these two laws, since they contain so much of spiritual truth in
                  so few words. And this world would surely be a much better place if they were
                  practiced by more people as individuals, by nations, and by spiritual paths.
                  Perhaps the organization of Eckankar and its leaders should consider how well
                  they are honoring these two laws, especially in regard to former members and
                  also in regard to current members.




                  FS
                  02/07/2004
                  Top

                  Response to Eckie_99: The Real Impact of Eckankar Mythology and The Role of HCS




                  Dear eckie_99

                  I may be starting to look predictable with the way I present my views to this
                  website, but, as many of the questions put to this site are in defence of
                  eckankar mythology, then one way of replying to these questions is to use the
                  very mythology that is being defended in order to express the truer side of
                  eckankar, the side the mahanta does not want to be seen. This reply therefore
                  will be no exception. I feel sure that this will meet with your approval.,
                  seeing as I am using the constructed, contrived, compilations of the master
                  compiler, one Paul Twitchell.

                  I quote your own words:

                  b. A Person who builds a framework that can help people grow spiritually, and
                  shows it to the world, to be judged on its own merits.

                  There is one point that you have failed to address in your defence of eckankar
                  being a framework that can help people grow, and that is, `The growth of people
                  spiritually within the framework of eckankar is dependant on Harold's acceptance
                  as to what he sees as spiritual growth, or more accurately stated, what he is
                  prepared to accept as `Truth.' I will therefore show to the world, and to you,
                  another side of how this framework of eckankar really operates in helping the
                  individual grow spiritually, and let the world judge it on its own merits.
                  Firstly, let the world see some of the teachings of eckankar that will be
                  relevant to this reply.

                  ME: This is a false premise.
                  Klemp plays the role of a
                  hypnotist and magician.
                  Any "spiritual growth" is
                  made by the individual
                  and despite Klemp's
                  interference via codependency.

                  Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                  "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and the tests
                  given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears. Every Spiritual
                  Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela to call upon the Master.
                  If the vision fails to reply then it is false".

                  Shariyat, book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                  "Be on guard, lest he who seeks without the Vi-Guru finds those who only appear
                  as the Holy One, claiming to be angels, or saints. Let none deceive the chela.
                  If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be deceived by the kal
                  Niranjan. If he has not the armour of Spirit, he can be misled".

                  Shariyat, book 1, page 149. Third Printing 1972:
                  "The ECKist knows that the presence of the Living ECK Master is always with
                  him. He is never alone".

                  What is presented here to the world, and yourself , is the truth of my own
                  experience while within this framework of eckankar and its leader, the mahanta.
                  Here is part of my letter to Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of recorded
                  inner experiences that was sent to him while following this framework of
                  eckankar, that you say, " can help people grow spiritually",

                  "All that is contained within the journal has withstood the tests of the secret words that are required to be used to prove their validity and all that you are about to read, I stand by as true."

                  Now friend, let the world see what the teachings of eckankar say about the inner
                  experiences of a chela and how they are viewed within this framework.

                  "The Shariyat book 2, pages 50-51: Second Edition 1988:
                  "No ECK Master will acknowledge his appearance to another person. This is
                  neither modesty nor is it a feeling of hiding something; in a sense he is
                  letting the individual decide for themselves whether it was really him. He
                  wants them to decide if it was reality. In this way he is not telling, nor
                  confirming his presence with them in the Atma Sarup, but allowing them the
                  independence of knowing and understanding whether it was actually him.

                  If a person makes up his mind that the living ECK Master really appeared to him,
                  then he knows it and this cannot be taken away from him, regardless. However,
                  if he has to be told that it was the ECK Master, then he is always in doubt, for
                  it was an outside source which gave him his information and not himself. It is
                  superficial knowledge and not from his own inner source.

                  He must always remember that the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master is not the one
                  to tell him of his inner experiences, nor whether the ECK Master has appeared to
                  him. But he must know this with a faith that is beyond anything that he has
                  experienced and, therefore, it will stay with him. Otherwise it may fade in
                  time, and the experiencer soon forgets whether it was really the ECK Master".

                  Now let the world see the reply from the leader of this framework of eckankar
                  that helps the individual to grow spiritually.

                  Reply from Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of inner experiences while a
                  chela under his claimed protection as the mahanta.

                  "In response to your letter and journal of inner experiences which led you to
                  think you have received the Rod of Eck Power. You have not.

                  Your instincts were right not to believe this. The Kal misled you."

                  Let it be explained to the world, and your own good self, that there was never
                  any claim made to me having had received the rod of eck power, only that it was
                  a possibility. Therefore, before we go any further, Harold Klemp is wrong in
                  his statement. Now we must look at his other words, those of `The Kal Misled
                  You`. Now friend, after being told I was misled by the kal, even though I have
                  Harold's assurance that, `If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be
                  deceived by the KAL Niranjan.`. he then fails to explain how this could have
                  happened and failed to give any further guidance as to what I could do to
                  prevent it happening again, although as we can see by the promise of this
                  framework, I should never have been misled in the first place.

                  Having now told me I was mistaken, Harold then goes on to lay the karmic
                  responsibility upon me for being responsible for leading others off the path of
                  eck.

                  "This happens more often than one would care to believe. People who fall for
                  this trick and mislead others off the path of eck become responsible for the karma."

                  Let the world and yourself take note of these words, for we are told something
                  very interesting here; "This happens more often than one would care to believe."
                  Are not these words very thought provoking? Is Harold admitting that being
                  misled by the kal while within this framework of eckankar,and, having his
                  protection of the Vi-Guru, being misled by the kal is a common occurance? If
                  this is so, then the claimed protection of the vi-guru must be failing to work.
                  Not only that, the secret words must also be failing. Let the world see what
                  eckankar has to say about the protection of its secret words:

                  Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                  "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and the tests
                  given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears. Every Spiritual
                  Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela to call upon the Master.
                  If the vision fails to reply then it is false".

                  Let it go on record that the visions within the journal's inner experiences did
                  reply and that I used the Word, and Words as is asked of the chela. Some of
                  these words being Sugmad, Wah Z, HU, Mahanta, or any of the names of the masters
                  of the vairagi.

                  Here I think we should let the world know just how important this figure of the
                  mahanta, the vi-guru really is, otherwise they may not fully realise just how
                  powerful the mahanta truly is?

                  Shariyat book 2 page 196. Second Edition 1988:
                  "The eck works are the most powerful in this world; and the mahanta, the living
                  eck master, who is the vehicle and channel for the eck, is the most powerful
                  being within the physical world, as well as the planets and all the planes
                  within the worlds of God."

                  Shariyat, book 1 says on page 81. Third Printing 1972:
                  "He is stronger than any man in intellect or spirit, for he has unlimited
                  power, and yet this strength is combined with the noble virtues of the humble
                  and gentle. All people find in him inspiration for the development of noble
                  character".

                  Shariyat, book 2 page 184 Second Edition 1988:
                  "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master has other titles. He is the Godman, the
                  Vi-Guru, the Light Giver, protector of the poor, the king of heaven, saviour of
                  mankind, the scourge of evil, and the defender of the faithful. He is the real
                  and only power in all the universes of God. No one can harm him without his
                  consent, for all that is done to him is given permission by the ECK, with his
                  consent".

                  To help further my spiritual growth within this framework of eckankar, the
                  mahanta now goes on to say:

                  "As a spiritual discipline you are put back to the First Circle of initiation
                  and are to stand aside from all eck duties for the present."

                  We can show the world that this is also against what the framework of eckankar
                  teaches:

                  Dialogues With The Master page 172:
                  First Printing 1990 "Remember this that those who demand respect and love of
                  others to themselves are only exercising the negative or attracting power. The
                  true teachings do not discipline in any way; do not set up duties or
                  difficulties or tasks for teaching their disciples."

                  This framework also tells the world, and its followers, that the teacher will
                  bring about any changes needed within a chela without any pain or difficulties.


                  Illuminated Way Letters 1966-1971 page 54 Copyright 1975 by Gail Twitchell
                  Gross:

                  "It is doubtful that the teacher will sit with his chela and discuss any
                  character faults of the aspirant. Hardly ever will the teachers tell anyone
                  what is wrong with himself, but he will concentrate on the error and bring about
                  the change from the inner to the outer world, without pain or difficulty to the
                  chelas, very often without the chela having any conscious awareness of it."

                  Dear friend, and the world. I am fully aware of what this framework of eckankar
                  has done to me, I am also fully aware of what this framework has done to many
                  others, and this is the reason why the framework of the H.C.S. was brought
                  about. It was brought about to help those who have suffered the injustice of
                  eckankar at the hands of its mythological mahanta and to give them support and
                  a free voice.

                  We can now look to another aspect of this frameworks teachings, if not its
                  practice, that of calling upon the master when the chela finds themselves in any
                  difficulty:

                  I was now left with no other recourse to attain further guidance other than to
                  write to the mahanta at the physical level. As yet, nothing has been given. Now
                  for the eckankar apologists they can say, "Get It On The Inner", but, and this
                  is very very very important, how can the individual `Get It On The Inner` when
                  the mahanta has just told the individual that all they have received on the
                  inner is the misleadings of the kal? That the chela has the right to call upon
                  the mahanta is given in the frameworks teachings. Not only has the chela the
                  right to call upon the mahanta, but the mahanta is bound by his duty to answer
                  each and every call of this nature. Let the world see the following exhibit:


                  Illuminated Way Letters, 1966-1971, PAGE 130 Copyright 1975 by Gail Twitchell
                  Gross:

                  "Whenever the chela experiences any difficulty with himself such as
                  falling into the negative trap, or even with Soul Travel, he should call upon
                  the Master to assist him, or conduct him as the soul traveller to the spiritual
                  worlds. For the Living ECK Master is bound by his mission to answer each and
                  every call of this nature".


                  Let it go on record, that the mahanta has failed in his duty, both to give the
                  inner protection that his framework promises to give, and that he has also
                  failed to assist a chela when called upon to do so. Now the world can see what
                  the framework of eckankar says about a master failing in his duty:

                  Shariyat, book 2, page 219. Second Edition 1988:
                  "If he falters or fails; it is possible that he may be taken out of this
                  position; and if he falters in his responsibility while serving as the Mahanta,
                  the Living ECK Master, it is possible that he must step down for another to take
                  his place".

                  Unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to let all see the contents of my journal and
                  come to their own understanding, and, unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to
                  answer any questions that others may wish to ask. The framework of the H.C.S.
                  has provided this facility for openness and free speech, the framework of
                  eckankar has provided only threats to those who voice dissension and doubt.

                  Shariyat, book 1, page 91. Third Printing 1972:
                  "To ridicule, to scorn, to speak mockingly of the word of the Mahanta, and not
                  to have faith in him and the cause of ECK is to bring woes on the advocator of
                  doubt. It brings his karmic progress to a halt, increases his incarnations in
                  this world, and causes him to suffer untold hardships".

                  Even if a chela, or chela's tries to broach a question that is not wanted by the framework of eckankar and its leader, its teachings provide a guidance for the party faithful of how to view this dissesion within the ranks.

                  Shariyat, book 2, pages 25-26. Second Edition 1988:
                  " It must be remembered that all complaints and all arguments against the ECK,
                  which are directed at the Mahanta, are the works of the Kal. Such assaults on
                  the Mahanta are those which originate from the Kal using the minds and
                  consciousness of those persons within its power to destroy the Mahanta and the
                  ECK, if at all possible. These are the works of the Kal, who uses religion,
                  ministers, and lay persons to bring about the downfall of the ECK, because it is
                  the truth. There will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and disguise
                  themselves under the robes of the ECK, but they are prophets with false faces
                  who are lying to the ECKist`s , but few if any who are true followers of the ECK
                  are ever deceived by these agents of the Kal".

                  What Harold Klemp and the eckankar organisation have chosen to ignore is that
                  truth, a truth that can be proven, is not an assault upon the mahanta, it is an
                  assault upon that which is untrue. If Harold Klemp as the mahanta and the
                  eckankar organisation see, and feel, that this as an assault upon them, then it
                  can only be because they have something to hide. Truth knows no fear, so why
                  does the framework of eckankar hide behind a wall of silence, instead of making
                  a stand upon its proclaimed truth in order to defend the truth of the sugmad and
                  its faithful followers?

                  Let those who have the eyes to see and the ears to ear reach their own verdict
                  from the `Facts` provided by the framework of eckankar itself , and its
                  application of its teachings by the mahanta. `By Their Actions Ye Shall Know
                  Them`

                  Dear friend, and the world, I rest my case.



                  Usually Skeptical
                  02/07/2004
                  Top

                  Response to eckie_99: I Took Your Test and Got An "A" !



                  Dear ekie,

                  Well, I looked at your test questions and have the answers... !.)

                  1.)
                  Q- What is more ethically incorrect?
                  A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold

                  2.)
                  Q- Who is less truthful?
                  A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold (that was just like #1!)

                  3.)
                  Q- Who is spiritually more developed?
                  A- "C" Those who are not afraid to see and hear truth

                  4.)
                  Q- What is a bigger spiritual crime?
                  A- "C" Not to give people the opportunity to know and choose truth over lies

                  That wasn't so hard after all... was it!

                  I graded it myself and got 100% correct!

                  Usually Skeptical

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that
                  rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"
                  >
                  > Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for
                  complete context.)
                  >
                  > To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a
                  long post though.
                  >
                  > (1)
                  >
                  > Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:
                  >
                  > [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
                  self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug
                  Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a
                  personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul
                  was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of
                  something like Dialogues With The Master.
                  >
                  > The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs.
                  Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something
                  like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar
                  Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic.
                  This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was
                  amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it
                  today.
                  >
                  > So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard
                  anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was
                  news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left
                  it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would
                  run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.
                  >
                  > It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep
                  impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the
                  tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying
                  something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush."
                  [... .]
                  >
                  > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm
                  >
                  > (2)
                  >
                  > July 2001:
                  >
                  > "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my
                  invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]
                  >
                  > Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't
                  David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that?
                  Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in
                  its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar
                  Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]
                  >
                  > http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25
                  >
                  > (3)
                  >
                  > July 2003:
                  >
                  > Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most
                  part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant
                  fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar
                  to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his
                  part ???
                  >
                  What are your on that stuff ?

                  > I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact
                  that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means
                  this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the
                  words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word
                  for word from Rebazar Tarzs.

                  > As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back
                  at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He
                  influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start
                  writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and
                  just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees
                  that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it
                  looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a
                  spin-off.

                  > It's all a matter of perspective.

                  > I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked
                  them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very
                  similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also
                  writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The
                  Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's
                  students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.

                  > On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote
                  this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm
                  glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his
                  popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about
                  that. - Doug.
                  >
                  > http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz
                  >
                  > (4) February 2004:
                  >
                  > "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I
                  can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers
                  words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying
                  them? Yes. [....]"
                  >
                  > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
                  >
                  > (5)
                  >
                  > March 2007:
                  >
                  > [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book,
                  Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?

                  > Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he
                  trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?

                  > I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The
                  River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have
                  taken The Far Country as something different.

                  > So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of
                  art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were
                  fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust
                  issue for them.

                  > I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much
                  more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual
                  teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.

                  > These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I
                  always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was
                  trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.

                  In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave
                  the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really
                  like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write
                  about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later,
                  wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts
                  are not exactly right?
                  >
                  > http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                  <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus,
                  > >
                  > > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It gives me peace
                  of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank you for being such a wise
                  soul.
                  > >
                  > > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that
                  rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? The circus of
                  eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder
                  it is to believe that it can stand as an organization. It appears like a house
                  of cards. Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and
                  do you think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their
                  membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event. Any ideas?
                  > >
                  > > Thanks
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                  > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                  (Revisited)
                  > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hello Janice and All,
                  > > Interesting. I think I'll
                  > > share some comments
                  > > to your insights below.
                  > >
                  > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                  > > "Prometheus,
                  > >
                  > > Now that is very interesting.
                  > >
                  > > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before
                  I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a
                  good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I
                  was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a
                  word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                  > >
                  > > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I
                  felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half
                  awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male
                  voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like
                  figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the
                  foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back.
                  It did.
                  > >
                  > > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being
                  a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more
                  so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed
                  the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                  > >
                  > > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term
                  relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me
                  yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming
                  an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                  > >
                  > > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                  > > many of us have had similar
                  > > experiences of being attacked
                  > > by negative entities and having
                  > > to defend ourselves. In this case
                  > > your RESA was, also, one of these
                  > > negative beings. Too bad you
                  > > couldn't protect yourself from
                  > > them, but it's deceptive when
                  > > one has placed trust in a RESA
                  > > by assuming they are always
                  > > positive and always on your side.
                  > > They are as closed minded and
                  > > defensive as is any religionist
                  > > when protecting their dogma
                  > > from too much scrutiny.
                  > >
                  > > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it
                  attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the
                  things I would not read as a<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                • etznab@aol.com
                  What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug Marman s use of the word facts . In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 6 8:21 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug
                    Marman's use of the word "facts".

                    In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my questions
                    about Rebazar Tarzs on a.r.e. - it seemed to me that in some respects
                    "facts" were somehow "secondary" to spiritual experience.

                    I thoiught about the a.r.e. thread last night trying to fathom what
                    Doug was saying about Paul's stories and things said (some of them) not
                    based on facts. And frankly, it still didn't jive with me. Off hand I
                    can remember at least two places where Paul Twitchell illustrated that
                    Rebazar Tarzs "told him" what to write. In one place (I believe)
                    Rebazar Tarzs comes to Paul's room, wakes him up, tells him to take up
                    the pencil and write. (I'm referring to Dialogues With The Master and
                    The Far Country.) So how can Doug suggest those were Paul's words based
                    on a spiritual experience?
                    Paul wrote (in so many words) that Rebazar Tarzs came and materialized
                    in his room, and in one instance (I believe) the mattress sank from the
                    weight of R.T. sitting on it.

                    It would be nice if everybody didn't go away, all those Eckists on the
                    newsgroups, and if the string of dialogues could continue today. I say
                    this because there is a lot more information and examples available to
                    share where many of "Paul's words" read as plagiarized from various
                    books by other authors - none of them by the name of Rebazar Tarzs, or
                    other Eck masters.

                    ***

                    "They" didn't succeed at booting me from a.r.e., and I didn't "move on"
                    as once suggested. To the contrary I continued to research the FACTS -
                    whether anybody likeed it or not - and have reams of examples (which
                    can be illustrated and verified by REAL evidence and FACTS) about many
                    of the things people were chewing on and debating over for years before
                    I arrived. Some of the examples I (and others) have since found are
                    those that not even David Lane was aware of (I'm talking about examples
                    of Paul's writings compared with other authors) and I think probably
                    that Doug Marman was unaware of.

                    So new information has come in since the D.L. / D.M. debates, etc. New
                    FACTS are now known. How facts can be important in one instance and
                    something else in another ... I am not sure what Doug was talking
                    about.

                    I recall from the newspapers that sometimes when something happens that
                    embarrasses the government and people want to know who is responsible -
                    such as torture of prisoners, etc. - those higher up in the ladder
                    have responded with things like: The first time I heard about it was
                    from the news / newspaper. Iow, people claim ignorance and that they
                    didn't know about something until it became public via the news. Well,
                    to admit otherwise - and that they did know about it (and for a long
                    time) - would be damning to them and public opinion would have them on
                    a spike!

                    Now I recall that (for some reason) Harold Klemp doesn't use the
                    Internet. I'm sure he reads the newspapers and watches the news, but
                    how much about the trove of FACTS regarding Paul's writings compared
                    with other authors - INCLUDING REBAZAR TARZS - is in the newspapers, or
                    on the evening news? (Maybe it should be?) Much of the new information
                    and research has been put on the Internet. That's where it is (also in
                    some books). And even there, we've probably all seen how apologists can
                    argue against certain information being true, try to marginalize people
                    and their research, even to the extent of suggesting (in so many words)
                    that facts don't matter. Or, it's not about facts.

                    Well, I've seen where it looks like people want to have it both ways.
                    Facts matter. Facts don't matter. As far as research goes, and besides
                    the stories of "spiritual experiences" that people send in, When was
                    the last time the Eckankar website posted something about people doing
                    real research into the stories told by Paul Twitchell? (Not to mention
                    "research" about the stories sent in by Eckists today?) It was 1984
                    when Harold came out with all that stuff about Paul Twitchell and when
                    Harold did research. I wonder if they continue to research, or if (for
                    some reason) it stopped a long time ago?

                    Oh yeah, I remember it now.

                    "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
                    researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
                    turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to say
                    that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I [Doug
                    Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the records.
                    Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past, which
                    Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough study.
                       
                    "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
                    about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
                    further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and worked
                    for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early days.
                    So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [....] A few
                    months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
                    began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
                    share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
                    anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
                    unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
                    see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [....]"

                    [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]

                    "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                    Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                    1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                    Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                    Singh, who is not the same person at all.
                    "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                    whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                    all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                    more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                    initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                    "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                    just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                    report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                    Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

                    [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                    Harold Klemp - see link]

                    http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

                    They got reports? Hmm ... then maybe I should send in a report? :)

                    I could give other examples where it looks like Eckankar is interested
                    in stories from other people, including what people found by research.
                    Apparently though, the LEM. isn't going to simply look at the Eck-Vidya
                    and share answers to all of the questions people have. At the same time
                    though, it looks like people pick and choose from all the information
                    only what "THEY WANT" the facts to be and put the rest under the rug.

                    If one disregards the reported facts written by Paul Twitchell
                    concerning his meetings, encounters, and relationships with Eck Masters
                    then where does it leave you? In Never Never Land with Peter Pan and
                    Tinker Bell, etc.? (Hey look! He's playing a flute!)

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverland

                    Are "spiritual experiences", the "stories" (and the stories that people
                    send in) somehow more REAL than factual accounts which can be
                    researched and verified? Or, Are "spiritual experiences" sometimes used
                    as a label for anything a person wants to be true? Iow, does the land
                    of make believe trump the actual facts? This is what it comes down to,
                    IMO.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Sat, May 5, 2012 10:57 pm
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                    (Revisited)

                     
                    BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus:

                    A Calm And Peaceful Message For All

                    Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is
                    being typed.
                    I have really been for the most part enjoying the dialogue on this
                    message board.

                    I would like to encourage Doug Marman to continue posting here. I think
                    gradually
                    we can all learn something that will help us move toward a greater
                    understanding.

                    We can do this together regardless of religious belief and possibly
                    emerge in
                    a place with no fences. I have many friends from different beliefs and
                    something
                    I have noticed in the last 10 years or so is that our differences don't
                    separate
                    us as much as they used to. There is a coming together of sorts and a
                    move
                    towards higher conciousness.

                    I have seen this come about through heartfelt sharing of ideas.

                    ***A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still an Eckist?

                    I send all who read this my love

                    Freeman

                    Joey Ward
                    02/09/2004
                    Top

                    Thanks Doug

                    Thank you very much for the reply to the 5 questions that I asked of
                    you. Also thanks for
                    looking through Paul Twitchell's writings and finding the same thing
                    that I found out about
                    Paul not using the term MAHANTA until January 1969. It means a lot to
                    me that you answered that question I ask a while back. I join Eckankar
                    because the Mahanta was the highest state of consciousness in this
                    world and in the inner worlds so said Paul Twitchell the 971st MAHANTA
                    (the title he gave himself). I still wonder why Paul would say such a
                    thing. To me this is the biggest lie that any person could say. To make
                    up a line of Mahanta Masters, (highest state of consciousness and God
                    made flesh) what was Paul thinking of. O' well !!! I guess the next
                    time I see Paul in the astral library I will give him a kick in the
                    pants.

                    Thanks Doug,
                    Joey Ward

                    PS..... Doug, next time you see Harold, could you tell him that Joey
                    would like to see Him
                    start posting on The Truth Seeker Bulletin Board. It sure would be
                    grand of Harold to do so.
                    Thanks again for your help.

                    Seeker For The Last Time
                    02/08/2004
                    Top

                    Another X`Eckist Story

                    I joined Eckankar in the early 80's, attracted partly because of their
                    concept of Soul Travel
                    and left in the mid-90's. I had become a 3rd Initiate by that time.
                    Because of my outspoken
                    aggressive remarks and asking too many questions about concealed facts
                    about the organization, many wondered why the LEM had allowed me to
                    reach that level.

                    Initiations and secret words and the idea that we need a Master, mean
                    nothing to me
                    in this life because in my different existences I was connected to many
                    of these concepts.
                    There were times I needed these secret words and initiations and a
                    Master and for those
                    who need them now, it is OK. It is something many have to experience,
                    if not in this lifetime,
                    in a different one.

                    In the mid-80's, I posted a few remarks on ARE. This was a good lesson
                    for me, because
                    some of the die-hard ECKists attempted to attack me with their "sword
                    from the Sugmad"
                    and "weed me out of the garden of ECK." I had no grudge against them
                    because I knew
                    they would learn to open their minds. At the time, they believed in
                    what they did and
                    that it was the right thing for them to do. I accepted it.

                    I hadn't been on ARE for a long time but a few weeks ago I was impelled
                    to go on it
                    and out popped the information concerning Ford Johnson's book. In the
                    past, ECKist
                    would say it was the ECK or LEM. I ordered the book, which I am
                    enjoying now.
                    It brought back some memories of Eckankar.

                    I was very surprised to see some of the die-hard and long-standing
                    ECKists,including
                    High Initiates, especially Nathan. This was a shock and it takes a lot
                    to shock me. I am
                    very happy for Nathan because we had communicated in the past. Nathan
                    would make
                    a very high class lawyer in this life(have no idea what he does). Boy,
                    did he swing that
                    sword for Eckankar. He left nothing standing. But that was then and now
                    is now. I am
                    happy, Nathan that you allowed yourself to open and move beyond the
                    garden of ECK.
                    There is so much more to learn.

                    To some Eckankar is still a beautiful garden and I can respect that. I
                    would like to stress
                    that I have nothing against Eckankar and similar religions. They may be
                    needed for souls
                    to grow.

                    I enjoyed reading the comments on this board..and I'll be back when I
                    have time.

                    I'll sign off with the name I used to use on ARE - Seeker, for the last
                    time.

                    Doug Marman
                    02/08/2004
                    Top

                    A Few Responses

                    I've received a number of comments to my last post.

                    I will respond to some of the questions and comments.

                    To Degar:

                    I agree with you that no church, book or religion can replace the part
                    of us
                    that knows. We also both agree on the importance of fearlessness in
                    seeing
                    truth, and the importance of teachings with heart.

                    My lights are fine, as are yours.

                    To Joey Ward:

                    I don't do yes or no questions, but I will try to keep my answers
                    short:

                    1. Did Paul Twitchell have the highest state of consciousness as the
                    Godman
                    as he told the world through his writings?

                    I don't know how anyone could say who was highest or who is even higher
                    than another.
                    So, I would never say such a thing, myself. I don't even think having
                    the highest state
                    of consciousness should be anyone's goal. A person can gain a high
                    state of consciousness
                    and be unable to make a living here in the physical. That's not very
                    useful.

                    2. Does Harold Klemp have the highest state of consciousness as the
                    Godman
                    as he is telling the world throught his writings?

                    Same as above, however, I will add this. I agree with the Sufis who say
                    that there is
                    what they call The Pole of The World. The Sufi teacher Ibn al' Arabi
                    points out that this
                    same principle applies at every level of human affairs. Another Sufi
                    put it this way:
                    "Just as there is someone who acts as the pole for the whole of
                    humanity, so there
                    are poles for every faith, community, occupation - even down to the
                    level of towns."

                    We sense when we are near such people since they seem to represent and
                    carry the
                    whole of the town or company or faith that they are a part of. Every
                    age has those
                    who carry the whole of things for the world at every level. We connect
                    to that whole
                    through their vision.

                    However, I don't believe in saying who the Pole of the World is, since
                    everyone needs
                    to find this out for themselves. In fact, in most times through history
                    the Pole of The
                    World was hidden. The Sufis say this as well.

                    3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?

                    Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes.

                    4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters
                    names on them
                    as if the Eck Master were saying them?

                    Yes.

                    5. Who do you Trust to tell the truth about Spiritual truths? Pick
                    one only. [Names omitted]

                    I see all teachings as mines. The good ones are gold mines, but they
                    all need to be sorted
                    through to find the pure gold. I have found no outer teachings that are
                    pure gold.

                    The only place to test the gold is within ourselves, when we try to use
                    it in our lives.

                    You might point to an outer person. I would rather point to our inner
                    knowingness
                    to recognize truth. We often do pick it up from others, however.

                    To Journey:

                    You asked: "If you are not trying to undermine Ford and his book
                    "Confessions of a God Seeker," why did you give such a negative opinion
                    about the book in The Chanhassen Villager last November?"

                    If you read my comments to the Chanhassen Villager, just like in my
                    last post, it is focused
                    on the errors in what David Lane has reported and the unfortunate fact
                    that Ford repeated
                    these as if they were facts as David did. I am absolutely amazed at how
                    far the distortion
                    of truths from David Lane has spread. I was disappointed that the
                    newspaper had not done
                    better research, and that Ford had not as well, especially since David
                    Lane himself suggested
                    to Ford that he study my book more thoroughly to see what had been
                    discussed via the Internet.

                    I am just as amazed at how quickly and completely people assume that I
                    am some kind
                    of pawn in a battle or fighting some kind of war against Ford for
                    pointing out the errors.
                    I guess this goes to show how far off perceptions of someone else's
                    motivations can be.
                    People will imagine what my motivations are, but they are a million
                    miles from the mark.

                    I do agree that some people like to win their arguments no matter what,
                    and since I have
                    no interest in that, this is exactly why I have said I would say no
                    more about such things
                    unless folks here were interested. From the responses I've seen, there
                    doesn't seem to be
                    much interest in what I was writing about.

                    I think you are right that we should all look at our motivations. I
                    have certainly done so and
                    have tried only to offer help in clearing up some of the confusions
                    that have been going on
                    for a while by getting to the facts. I have tried to stay far from
                    criticizing anyone else's beliefs, although I do think some friendly
                    dialogue in this area is good.

                    I think it is just as important to look at the motivations for bringing
                    up my personal motivations. I have not questioned Ford's motivations,
                    nor would I. I think his intentions are sincere. Getting stuck over
                    another person's so-called intentions is often the way our Censor stops
                    us from seeing another person's point of view fairly.

                    When we get so attached to our cause, anyone who says anything that
                    appears to interfere
                    with our cause becomes or enemy. The motivations of our enemies are
                    always wrong
                    in our minds. Ask them and they would say the same about their enemies.

                    It is a sad fact that public dialogue over religious matters is almost
                    impossible these days.
                    This was not true in America during its early days. Public dialogue was
                    often lively and contentious, but never came to people disowning their
                    neighbors or rejecting their families and friends like it does today.

                    As far as I am concerned, we are all friends here with a common
                    interest in Spiritual Truth.
                    That is how I see it. And we will each decide for ourselves what is
                    true, as we should.

                    To DD:

                    You wrote: "You spend all of your time chipping away at the edges of
                    the argument,
                    finding miniscule points of contention (a minor date discrepancy here,
                    a location there)
                    but not once do you address the underlying core truth that is being and
                    has been expressed
                    here from the very beginning."

                    Exactly right. So why is everyone getting so worked up about it? Why is
                    no one simply
                    acknowledging the minor points and letting it go? These are not core
                    truths, just a matter
                    of correcting errors in fact.

                    No, I don't agree that my "can't we all get along" message doesn't help
                    us get at the truth.
                    In fact, let me say it this way: If we can not listen to those who see
                    things differently than
                    we do, then we will never see Truth. This doesn't mean we should all
                    agree, but it certainly
                    does mean that we should be able to hold respectful and friendly
                    conversations with those
                    who have a different way of seeing things. We should be open to
                    learning from others.

                    You wrote: "Your method is to find a few unimportant discrepancies and
                    use them
                    as an attempt to discredit the entire revelation of overall truth
                    discovered."

                    This is incorrect. I am only trying to point out the errors. I am not
                    trying to discredit
                    the entire message. But clearly, after we have seen the facts for what
                    they are, the
                    overall picture does change somewhat. That's natural.

                    Since so many of David Lane's claims are in fact not based on facts at
                    all, but merely
                    on imagined intentions and speculations, I have also offered other
                    possible interpretations.
                    My point is not that David's guesses are wrong and mine are right, but
                    simply to show how
                    widely interpretations can vary when there are no facts.

                    You are the one who is painting a picture of black and white, not I. I
                    don't see David
                    or Ford as all wrong, nor as all right. I say let's find the gold
                    wherever we look.
                    Why blame anyone for the fact that everything they offer is not pure
                    gold?

                    Lastly, you suggest that I am defending a teaching and that I am an
                    apologist.
                    Okay, perhaps I am. I don't feel that is what I am doing, but I can see
                    it would look
                    that way to you. But surely you see that your comments are the same.
                    You are also
                    defending your beliefs. In fact, everyone who has responded to my post
                    on this
                    bulletin board has picked at what I would call minor, technical details
                    and completely
                    avoided my points. This doesn't mean you or anyone else here is any
                    less sincere,
                    does it?

                    To Nacal:

                    You asked: "Where do you ever give a reference or a quote from your
                    sources?"

                    They are in my book, and have been thoroughly discussed on
                    alt.religion.eckankar
                    and can be found in the records there. I would be glad to present them
                    here as well,
                    if anyone was interested.

                    You asked: "Why have you returned without answering the questions posed
                    to you
                    by site members in previous postings? When did Twitchell first write
                    about the mahanta?
                    Was it 1969 as one site member has stated?"

                    I answered last time that I had just moved to a new home and my files
                    were still packed
                    in boxes. They are still packed in boxes, but a few are handy so I
                    pulled out Paul's old
                    Wisdom Notes and Illuminated Way Letters.

                    You seem to be right. Paul didn't use the word, Mahanta, until the
                    January 1969 Illuminated
                    Way Letter and the February 1969 Wisdom Note. Before then he mainly
                    used, The Master, Spiritual Traveler, Teacher, etc. Not even the
                    mention of Living ECK Master very often, although Outer Master and
                    living Master were mentioned often.

                    This is interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

                    You wrote: "You are also being untruthful when you say that you, "…
                    have no
                    desire to interfere with the beliefs of anyone."

                    And how would you know that? You seem to know my own desires and
                    intentions
                    better than I do. Clearly I will need to ask you next time what my
                    intentions and
                    desires are.

                    This is foolishness. Do you realize how hard it is to know the desires
                    of your own children?
                    How often do parents misunderstand what their children are trying to
                    do? Have you never had this happen to you when you were a child? Yet
                    you think you can actually guess my desires, when you don't even know
                    me? Have we even met?

                    Why do people spend so much time imagining they KNOW the intentions of
                    those they
                    disagree with?

                    I see this with ECKists just as often as with David Lane and the group
                    here. So, I'm not picking on this group. I see it as a real trap and an
                    excuse to justify rejecting what another person has to say.

                    You wrote: "You also claim to "have enjoyed the conversations on this
                    bulletin board" and yet
                    you only respond to selective questions."

                    That's right. That was what I came here to share, after Ford claimed
                    that I was not after the kind of truth that could be discussed openly
                    and that my book was not about encouraging open dialogue. I came here
                    for just that kind of dialogue, but guess what? No one here wants to
                    discuss the facts or the errors openly.

                    If I were Ford, I would care enough to make sure the facts I was using
                    were accurate.
                    I thought, especially as a lawyer, he would want to know.

                    You wrote: "You attempt to confuse (like Paul and Harold) by twisting
                    and abusing truth
                    in order to blind the reader with your distortions and illusions of
                    reality."

                    If you really believe this, then why not point out a quote where you
                    feel this is what I am attempting to do, rather than making broad
                    accusations about my motivations? Why not just address directly what
                    what I am saying and point out how you see it differently? I have no
                    intention of twisting the truth in anyway at all.

                    You wrote: "Is what Harold's teaches (Eckankar) a myth?

                    "Since I brought the subject up can you tell me if the Holocaust was a
                    myth or not?

                    "Some things ARE black and white so just give a yes or no answer to the
                    previously mentioned two questions. Please, no long-winded explanation,
                    yes or no to each question."

                    Sorry, I don't do yes or no answers, but I'll be glad to discuss your
                    questions. Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught about Eckankar is a
                    myth. Yes, I think a lot of what people think about the Holocaust is
                    made up of myth as well. This doesn't mean that the Holocaust didn't
                    happen, or that many of the stories or facts are lies. It just means
                    that people often try to simplify things.

                    History is largely made up of myth. There are a million personal
                    individual stories about World War II, for example, yet the history
                    books treat it as one thing that happened. The people who go through it
                    don't see it the way the history books do. They were there, but the
                    myths are what we can deal with to understand. Otherwise it is too
                    complex.

                    You wrote: "Doug, instead of focusing on David Lane or Ford's book
                    let's now focus on the writings of Twitchell and Klemp and see where we
                    can find inaccuracies, or is the world still flat to you? Did you like
                    the posting from the May-June-July 1971 Mystic World about Twitchell?
                    "No one really knows for sure where he came from, when he was born, or
                    if his true name is even Paul Twitchell. How long he has been on this
                    Earth planet is not known." Or, how about this quote from the same
                    article, "Paul is known to the world as Peddar Zaskq, which is his real
                    name, is an occidental." Wasn't this also his name for his last
                    incarnation and his spiritual name?"

                    Obviously we now know where he came from and was born (Paducah,
                    Kentucky) and that his true name was not Paul Twitchell, but was John
                    Paul Twitchell. We also now know when he was born (1909). Paul
                    certainly didn't ever talk about these things, nor would he answer
                    questions about them directly, and I think he liked the idea that his
                    past was mysterious, and he helped to create this mysterious past. Yes,
                    Paul is only known to the world as Peddar Zaskq because he told the
                    world that was his spiritual name.

                    And yes, this is the kind of writing that is mythological. Did you
                    think I would say something else?

                    You went on: "Let's now go back up to the preceding paragraph since you
                    seem to claim to like "facts" (why don't you give your sources?). "But
                    it is a fact that his Master Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan lama,
                    who appears to be in his early forties, was a young man when Columbus
                    discovered America." Now, was that really a "fact," or a delusional
                    belief, or a deliberate lie? Or, is it that, "There is a need of the
                    people to believe in the magic of a saviour, and Sri Paul Twitchell
                    knows this and acts out the part" (same article)."

                    It certainly is no fact, since there are no records nor anything else
                    to prove that Rebazar Tarzs even exists, never mind how old he really
                    is. However, there is no proof that it is a lie, either. It certainly
                    sounds far-fetched. But I don't think the belief in saints, saviors and
                    spiritual teachers comes from the desire to believe in magic. I think
                    it comes from the innate memory within Soul that there is a truth and
                    meaning to life that most of the world seems to have forgotten, but
                    some remember.

                    As Rumi once said, the reason that false gold is so popular is because
                    there is such a thing
                    as real gold.

                    Of course, mixed with this is that many people want a father figure, or
                    want someone to take
                    care of them and tell them what is right and wrong.

                    You wrote: "The sad thing is that there is no freedom in religion…
                    there is only control through the use of fear and surrender of the
                    common sense of having an open mind, and of course, the dangled carrot
                    of initiation and hope."

                    It certainly seems that way. To me, without freedom there is no point
                    to a spiritual teaching. It is simply a social group. There is more
                    peer pressure and more influence from the people who want everyone to
                    be harmonious rather than speaking honestly, than control from above,
                    but in general I agree with you.

                    You wrote: "Paul states, "Ramaji was one of the first initiates in the
                    ancient Order of the Vairagi." It seems Paul has a problem spelling his
                    name. "Ji" is a Hindu suffix used to denote respect and affection. But,
                    Paul is not speaking of Rama."

                    Why do you think that Paul is referring to someone different than Rama?
                    The Hindus often add the "ji" to the end of a name, and sometimes it is
                    written with only the "j". Take the name Shamus-i-Tabriz. Generally
                    this is spelled, Shams of Tabriz. Same person. Jalalludin Rumi is
                    spelled dozens of ways. Sometimes he is also called Mevlana. Same
                    person. Sometimes it is written Shabda Yoga, sometimes Shabd Yog.
                    Sometimes Yoga is spelled Joga. I interpret this quote from Paul to be
                    referring to the same person as Rama, but if you feel otherwise I would
                    find it interesting to hear why.

                    You asked: "By the way, why has Harold evaded giving his birth date and
                    age?"

                    I don't know. Probably because it is a personal fact that has nothing
                    to do with his role. But maybe it is just a hold-over from Paul. You
                    would have to ask him. My guess is that he doesn't want people holding
                    birthday parties because of his birthdate.

                    You wrote: "Also, why is it Doug that on page 282 that Harold, the
                    mahanta, doesn't even know today about an experience he had in1970. He
                    states, "Was he really an ECK Master? Who can say?" Shouldn't the
                    Master who is greater than the God of all religions know such things?"

                    I would have to read the whole quote in context. It sounds to me as if
                    Harold is asking a rhetorical question. In other words, who can say if
                    he was a Master then?

                    Actually the question I ask is how did Darwin know that he was the
                    Mahanta, or how does Harold know this? Isn't this like any initiate who
                    might think they have gained the next initiation? Isn't this the same
                    question? How do they really know?

                    You ask: "Are the initiations in Eckankar valid as a means to greater
                    spiritual growth over those who are non-eckists? Or, is this a myth
                    too?"

                    I think the initiations are a mixed bag. There is definitely reality to
                    them, from my personal experience. But they have become filled with
                    myths as well. I can tell you that real Self-Realization is rare, HI or
                    not. The initiation level doesn't prove anything. It is more meaningful
                    as a personal matter than a comparison to others. I don't think anyone
                    should be judging another person's worth or truth by what initiation
                    level they are at. Including the Master.

                    You asked: "Paul states on page 136 of Difficulties Of Becoming The
                    Living ECK Master, "Cause with all of that, see, I write books in
                    series. I have four books that are finished now; well, the Shariyat is
                    a continued writing, but I've got three books actually." So Doug,
                    where's book three? If it wasn't finished why didn't Harold go to the
                    Astral Library to finish it?"

                    Paul wrote a number of the first chapters to book three. I think he got
                    to chapter three or four. That's as far as it has gotten. I think that
                    Harold thought about completing book three but for some reason decided
                    it wasn't his place to do so. I would be surprised if Harold ever
                    finishes book three, or tries to. But you would have to ask him if you
                    wanted to know.

                    You wrote: "Was the "Moon Virus" that Twitchell warned of a myth or a
                    self-promotional lie,
                    or did he make an erroneous assumption or was it just conjecture (page
                    234 of "Difficulties")? Show me where Kirpal Singh's name is used with
                    Sudar Singh's?"

                    I have no idea where Paul got the idea of the Moon Virus from. He
                    certainly used it to gain some news. It is similar in some ways to the
                    HIV virus in the way it has stumped the scientists, but I have heard no
                    connection to the moon.

                    Here is the first quote of Paul's where he mentions Sudar Singh, from
                    the January 1964 Orion
                    magazine:

                    "I began my study of bilocation under the tutelage of Satguru Sudar
                    Singh, in Allahabad, India. Later, I switched to Sri Kirpal Singh of
                    old Delhi. Both were teaching the Shabda Yoga, that which is called
                    the Yoga of Sound Current. I had to learn to leave my body at will and
                    return, without effort..."

                    Here is another quote from my book:

                    "I have since found two other early articles of Paul's, that show the
                    same thing: An article that ran in early 1966 called, Can You Be In Two
                    Places At The Same Time?, shows Sudar Singh, from Allahabad, India,
                    along with Bernard of England, a Self-Realization Swami who has a
                    retreat in Maryland, Kirpal Singh of Delhi, India, and Rebazar Tarzs, a
                    Tibetan monk.

                    "The second article was called, The God Eaters, and ran in the November
                    1964 issue of The Psychic Observer. In the article Paul talks about
                    Rebazar Tarzu [sic], who he "made contact with...through bilocation,"
                    and Kirpal Singh as his teachers. These examples clearly show that both
                    Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs were referred to, side by side with
                    Kirpal Singh. It was not until late 1966 before Paul suddenly stopped
                    referring to Kirpal Singh."

                    You wrote: "You mention that you talked to Patti Simpson and basically
                    she says it was "funny" how Paul would evade giving out information on
                    himself. You wrote that Paul tried to leave information blank "when it
                    came to filling out official forms," but found that, "they would gladly
                    accept whatever he wrote whether it was right or wrong." In truth,
                    Paul intentionally lied and mislead people. Ironically, this is one
                    "fact" that you have supplied to help prove the validity of David
                    Lane's claim! This is also proof that you don't even listen to your own
                    words! Perhaps, this is because your conscious subjective (self) is to
                    evade, and your unconscious objective Self (God-Soul) is to impart
                    truth."

                    If you want to imagine that, go ahead. I think there is a big
                    difference between someone who is intentionally trying to mislead
                    people about their age, and a person who refuses to give out their age.
                    But if you want to say that both are technically lies, that's fine with
                    me. It seems to me that you are just trying to make it look like
                    something it isn't.

                    Remember, the picture that David painted is that Paul lied to Gail
                    about his age, as he had lied about his age his whole life. In fact,
                    Gail knew perfectly well that Paul wasn't giving out his age, and so
                    did everyone else. Pretty different picture if you ask me.

                    Here's a similar example. David was accused of copyright infringment
                    many years ago (ironic, isn't it?). It was over a book written about J
                    R Hinkins group. Under oath he said one thing. In his deposition, also
                    under oath, he said the opposite. The judge politely said that his
                    testimony was untrustworthy. David claims that he was not trying to
                    lie, he just didn't remember it correctly. However, the testimony shows
                    that the first story he told seemed like the one that would best help
                    his case. Later it turned out to be exactly the wrong thing, so when
                    asked the same question in court, he answered the opposite way. He lost
                    his case over this.

                    Would you call that lying? David doesn't. I'll take David's word for it
                    that he just forgot, even though it looks otherwise. I guess that's
                    just how I am.

                    You wrote: "Doug you have imagined facts through your own distorted
                    belief system of myth being reality. You seem to be confused as you
                    spread confusion to others (somewhat like Typhoid Mary).You have no
                    idea of what fact or truth is because you are unable to hear truth."

                    Mighty big claims. Why not just show me the quotes where you think I'm
                    off base and share how you see it? Why imagine that I am unable to see
                    truth?

                    I'm sure I see it differently than you do. But I have few illusions
                    about Paul. My point was to show how many illusions that David had,
                    while claiming otherwise. Ford's book has got them now, too, since he
                    was taken in by David's story. The irony is that those who are most
                    concerned about pointing out the lies and illusions of others are often
                    just as unwilling to admit and correct their own.

                    However, if you feel that I've made any errors, please point them out.
                    David caught a few, and I immediately corrected them. I would like to
                    make my book as accurate as possible, and I'm in the process of making
                    another edit to include the latest information, since we are always
                    learning new things.

                    Thanks for asking specific questions. More of this would make a real
                    dialogue worthwhile.
                    And I am glad to share the specific evidence behind my comments if
                    anyone is interested.

                    Doug.

                    Degar
                    02/08/2004
                    Top

                    Be The Now!!

                    If you are a follower of the Clear Light and Silent Sound, then you
                    follow the natural order of who you really are as Beingness. The secret
                    between the truth and the lie, is intention. Intention is the prime
                    mover of awareness. How many really see themselves as the observer and
                    the observed, the now, the present. Look only to the temple within
                    yourself, no church, building or outer temple will ever point the way.
                    In fact remove or demolish all these objects of glory, pride and self
                    righteousness for in the heart of the now resides the gift. "Remind all
                    those that show you the way to the false temple of mortar and brick
                    that you have out grown their cage and See now with the Spiritual eye
                    only Truth."

                    NO RELIGION can hold GOD to a given doctrine! Even the doctrine of
                    Light and Sound…..

                    Freedom can not be bound and Freedom will destroy all that try to hold
                    it.

                    Man is a funny creature, he seeks the company of the one and only
                    primal cause even until death. He is even willing to kill to be near to
                    it. He believes that distance exists between himself and his Maker and
                    he must make a journey back to the Godhead. Knock, knock, is anyone
                    home? Soul exists because it is GOD. God has never posed the question,
                    "I love Soul". Your Higher Self JUST IS, no more
                    - no less.

                    Wake up!

                    Dance, Sing and Be.

                    "All thing must pass away" – George Harrison

                    Hold on to the social consciousness if you must but as Ford and Gram
                    are saying they only
                    opened the door you must walk through and see Freedom for yourself. Not
                    their truth, but yours.

                    After the Temple of Eck was built, I made a number of visits to it. On
                    one of my visits I noticed that the temples main entrance floor was
                    cracked right down the middle. Eckankar had it repaired, so no one had
                    any idea what had happened. If that had occurred in my life, I would
                    have asked what Spirit was saying to me? Well I did….. What it told me
                    was that the office(ORG) and the temple side(Spiritual) had a major
                    division between them. Another way of seeing it was that the true
                    teachings of Eck were no longer within the organization.

                    Fear is the last thing to go…… Pure awareness of consciousness can only
                    be experienced
                    without fear.

                    The events unfolding before us have the blessing of the Holy Order of
                    the World Adepts
                    or it would not be.

                    This is not an end to something, but more of a beginning.

                    Degar *

                    Kermit
                    02/08/2004
                    Top

                    Solipsist Reprieve: My Story -- Why I Left Eckankar

                    Soul, if It exists, could have entered into the agreement to share the
                    Eckankar dream. The purpose may have been for spiritual experience: to
                    advance spiritually and learn to be of service in a better and higher
                    way and to consciously learn a few other things, like the nature of
                    illusion and deception. But if I believe that soul exists, then I am
                    asking for another round of belief lessons. I had spiritual
                    experiences, but how do I know that they are real now? All I know is
                    that I am here now and even those two adverbs are suspect.

                    Now it is the age of Aquarius and the Piscean age is over. Some
                    astrologers say that the religions of the intercessor between man and
                    God were an aspect of the Piscean phase. It is a strong aspect of the
                    Aquarian age that the veils of the intercessors be lifted. And it
                    implies a dark night for the wizard who commands his followers to
                    "ignore that man behind the curtain." It is a bright day for expose'
                    writers. Since reading the book, I have seen other works that expose
                    Christianity and Judaism. All the political books are pointing out
                    lies told by the governments and the other party and the history books.
                    For the Christians out there: your version of "Confessions" may be the
                    works of Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. Lies and damn lies. All
                    religions are of the cloth of deception, regardless of whose face is on
                    the master.

                    So it appears that Eckankar has decided to maintain its position as a
                    spiritual middle school. We all saw this coming, felt it in many ways
                    and Ford articulated it for our minds in a way that we could no longer
                    ignore. We knew about David Lane and some of the plagiarism years ago
                    and chose to forgive it. We wondered why Rebazar couldn't appear for a
                    TV spot, if he was so physical. We were uncomfortable about Darwin
                    being written out of history. The restrictive guidelines.

                    When I went to receive my fifth initiation, the internal phrase kept
                    repeating: "The bloom is off the rose. . . the bloom is off the rose."
                    I wondered what that meant, but the meaning is emerging. The days of
                    believing in Santa Clause are past. Time to take the next step in
                    becoming emancipated. Joseph Campbell said that his studies gave him
                    an overview of the myths and religions that precluded his having any
                    spiritual experiences himself. It is like the old saying that he who
                    carved the Buddha cannot worship it.

                    But I had just finished the book and was casting about and asked spirit
                    if it was true. The image of an animated Rebazar peered headfirst into
                    my inner vision and then started to mirror every movement I made. I
                    had never had an experience with him, but the message was that I was
                    doing it and so I might as well quit struggling against the curriculum.
                    "No more Mother Goose stories for you and you can pretty much forget
                    about the tooth fairy," it told me.

                    Now I suspect why Harold is always telling fairy tales. I see an image
                    now of Paul laughing, after telling his audience that only a handful of
                    them would understand what he was trying to say. What if he was trying
                    to say that only deception exists in the world of illusion? Is Harold
                    hinting that the teachings are a fairy tale used to teach a different
                    lesson?

                    Masters and lying liars do not come clean. But there may be more to
                    this learning than is apparent. What if Harold had told us that he had
                    discovered the truth about the whole sham and just said,

                    "Well, you can call me Harold or you can call me Gerald, but you
                    doesn't have to call me Sri anymore." Would that have been masterful?
                    I do not know, but he didn't say that. He built a temple instead.

                    One of the wake-up calls for me was an Ask-the-Master session for RESAs
                    in one of the recent books. Those guys didn't know anything. They
                    were asking questions and Harold was describing worlds and temples and
                    I would like to think that RESAs should have been able to access that
                    information themselves, if the path was working.

                    But no mastership is happening here. With Eckankar producing only two
                    and a half masters in almost 38 years, I was starting to worry that I
                    wasn't on the short list, anyway. We're all better than we were and we
                    are better public speakers, but that is not what we came for.

                    We came onto the path because it promised mastership/enlightenment.
                    One of the unspoken truths is that we don't have a chance of reaching
                    it by way of Eckankar. It has been boiling us like frogs: slowly. By
                    the time we have been around long enough to know that no one is going
                    to go beyond the 8th initiation, except one guy, our minds are no
                    longer independent enough to get that this path to mastership is not
                    working and it not going to work.

                    Now we have talked ourselves out of a way of life. Harold would
                    probably say we have talked ourselves into a Dark Night of Soul. But
                    that's the kind of beating we would be in for if we stayed around.

                    I took a class with a lot of law enforcement types at one time. They
                    said that everyone, except the most committed sociopath, has a need to
                    tell the truth. The body language, tonal patterns and eye movements
                    combine with other unconscious clues to betray a lie or a concealed
                    truth. One way to conceal and deceive is to tell nothing but lies like
                    Kevin Spacey's character in "The Usual Suspects." This may be how Paul
                    Twitchell did it. There is a book about this subject called "Telling
                    Lies" by Paul Ekman. It has been staring at me from my bookshelf for
                    years and it has gradually dawned on me that the title and author may
                    contain a hint.

                    My inner voice says that there is only the one I Am that smears itself
                    across the living tapestry and reabsorbs itself after one lifetime or
                    many. So this baby is going out with the bath water.

                    Thanks for tipping the scales.

                    Kermit

                    Journey
                    02/07/2004
                    Top

                    Reply to GPk: On Unloving Attitudes

                    Dear GPk,

                    As to your unloving and lack of understanding attitude, I based that on
                    what you said, especially in regards to your unkind words to Usually
                    Skeptical.
                    You also seem to be putting down people who are posting here on this
                    message board. You continue to direct negative comments to others on
                    this site. You come across as a very angry person so I am not
                    surprised that my comments bothered you so much. You confused me
                    because you sound like you are still an Eckist in your attacks.

                    You are wrong in assuming I'm stuck/holding on to the teachings of
                    Eckankar. I was not a member that long, but I read all of Harold's
                    transcripts and several other books, attended Satsang classes, etc.
                    From the get-go, it seemed like a lot of double talk and
                    confusing--lots of contradictions. Your postings also attack Ford in
                    that you said he was going to become the leader of a new religion, that
                    would be no different from any other group. I think you are the one
                    hung up on Eckankar. I am glad you are reading Ford's book. Then, I
                    think your comments here would be made with a better perspective,
                    regardless of your take on Ford's writings.

                    It is obvious that the only self awareness that you have ever achieved
                    has been of the little self. You seem to be still experiencing the
                    brain washing of Eckankar. The comments that you have made indicate
                    that you are only aware of the little self, rather than the higher
                    self. Your initiation did not give you self-realization. This is the
                    flaw I see in your reasoning. But this is all understandable because of
                    the length of time you spent in the Eckankar organization--you have
                    more to dump than I do. There is a massive amount of flawed concepts
                    along with certain truths that have been mixed to such a degree that it
                    is almost impossible to decipher it all. In addition to anger, there is
                    fear that there is no truth out there--that you will not be able to
                    find it. This is, perhaps, the root of your negativity that you have
                    lashed out on this site. This is my understanding.

                    Also, I have not touted the degree of my spirituality as you have. I am
                    only a Truth Seeker.

                    Best regards and good reading,
                    Journey

                    Willy
                    02/07/2004
                    Top

                    FS Response To Ecki99 Plus 2 Laws

                    Thanks for the thorough response to the questions raised by Ecki99 and
                    others. As one other book (Christian Bible) often quoted notes "by
                    their fruits ye shall know them". Why do so many Eckists see the
                    activities of HCS and former members of Eckankar as a threat? There
                    are no lawsuits filed, there are no media exposes, there is just the
                    statement of spiritual truths as experienced by those who have taken
                    the next step. There is no massive attempt to force Eck chelas to
                    leave their path, if that is where they are comfortable. To each his
                    own.

                    Harold has made much of Richard Maybury's two laws namely:

                    1. Do all you say you will do. (Your word is your bond, honor it.)
                    2. Do not encroach on others or their property. (Respect the integrity
                    of others.)

                    I really like these two laws, since they contain so much of spiritual
                    truth in so few words. And this world would surely be a much better
                    place if they were practiced by more people as individuals, by nations,
                    and by spiritual paths. Perhaps the organization of Eckankar and its
                    leaders should consider how well they are honoring these two laws,
                    especially in regard to former members and also in regard to current
                    members.

                    FS
                    02/07/2004
                    Top

                    Response to Eckie_99: The Real Impact of Eckankar Mythology and The
                    Role of HCS

                    Dear eckie_99

                    I may be starting to look predictable with the way I present my views
                    to this website, but, as many of the questions put to this site are in
                    defence of eckankar mythology, then one way of replying to these
                    questions is to use the very mythology that is being defended in order
                    to express the truer side of eckankar, the side the mahanta does not
                    want to be seen. This reply therefore will be no exception. I feel sure
                    that this will meet with your approval., seeing as I am using the
                    constructed, contrived, compilations of the master compiler, one Paul
                    Twitchell.

                    I quote your own words:

                    b. A Person who builds a framework that can help people grow
                    spiritually, and shows it to the world, to be judged on its own merits.

                    There is one point that you have failed to address in your defence of
                    eckankar being a framework that can help people grow, and that is, `The
                    growth of people spiritually within the framework of eckankar is
                    dependant on Harold's acceptance as to what he sees as spiritual
                    growth, or more accurately stated, what he is prepared to accept as
                    `Truth`. I will therefore show to the world, and to you, another side
                    of how this framework of eckankar really operates in helping the
                    individual grow spiritually, and let the world judge it on its own
                    merits. Firstly, let the world see some of the teachings of eckankar
                    that will be relevant to this reply.

                    Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                    " Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and
                    the tests given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears.
                    Every Spiritual Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela
                    to call upon the Master. If the vision fails to reply then it is
                    false".

                    Shariyat, book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                    "Be on guard, lest he who seeks without the Vi-Guru finds those who
                    only appear as the Holy One, claiming to be angels, or saints. Let
                    none deceive the chela. If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he
                    cannot be deceived by the kal Niranjan. If he has not the armour of
                    Spirit, he can be misled".

                    Shariyat, book 1, page 149. Third Printing 1972:
                    "The ECKist knows that the presence of the Living ECK Master is always
                    with him. He is never alone".

                    What is presented here to the world, and yourself , is the truth of my
                    own experience while within this framework of eckankar and its leader,
                    the mahanta. Here is part of my letter to Harold Klemp in regards to my
                    journal of recorded inner experiences that was sent to him while
                    following this framework of eckankar, that you say, " can help people
                    grow spiritually",

                    "All that is contained within the journal has withstood the tests of
                    the secret words that are
                    required to be used to prove their validity and all that you are about
                    to read, I stand by as true."

                    Now friend, let the world see what the teachings of eckankar say about
                    the inner experiences
                    of a chela and how they are viewed within this framework.

                    "The Shariyat book 2, pages 50-51: Second Edition 1988:
                    "No ECK Master will acknowledge his appearance to another person.
                    This is neither modesty nor is it a feeling of hiding something; in a
                    sense he is letting the individual decide for themselves whether it was
                    really him. He wants them to decide if it was reality. In this way he
                    is not telling, nor confirming his presence with them in the Atma
                    Sarup, but allowing them the independence of knowing and understanding
                    whether it was actually him.

                    If a person makes up his mind that the living ECK Master really
                    appeared to him, then he knows it and this cannot be taken away from
                    him, regardless. However, if he has to be told that it was the ECK
                    Master, then he is always in doubt, for it was an outside source which
                    gave him his information and not himself. It is superficial knowledge
                    and not from his own inner source.

                    He must always remember that the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master is not
                    the one to tell him of his inner experiences, nor whether the ECK
                    Master has appeared to him. But he must know this with a faith that is
                    beyond anything that he has experienced and, therefore, it will stay
                    with him. Otherwise it may fade in time, and the experiencer soon
                    forgets whether it was really the ECK Master".

                    Now let the world see the reply from the leader of this framework of
                    eckankar that helps
                    the individual to grow spiritually.

                    Reply from Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of inner experiences
                    while a chela under
                    his claimed protection as the mahanta.

                    "In response to your letter and journal of inner experiences which led
                    you to think you have
                    received the Rod of Eck Power. You have not.

                    Your instincts were right not to believe this. The Kal misled you."

                    Let it be explained to the world, and your own good self, that there
                    was never any claim made to me having had received the rod of eck
                    power, only that it was a possibility. Therefore, before we go any
                    further, Harold Klemp is wrong in his statement. Now we must look at
                    his other words, those of `The Kal Misled You`. Now friend, after
                    being told I was misled by the kal, even though I have Harold's
                    assurance that, `If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be
                    deceived by the KAL Niranjan.`. he then fails to explain how this could
                    have happened and failed to give any further guidance as to what I
                    could do to prevent it happening again, although as we can see by the
                    promise of this framework, I should never have been misled in the first
                    place.

                    Having now told me I was mistaken, Harold then goes on to lay the
                    karmic responsibility upon me for being responsible for leading others
                    off the path of eck.

                    "This happens more often than one would care to believe. People who
                    fall for this trick and
                    mislead others off the path of eck become responsible for the karma."

                    Let the world and yourself take note of these words, for we are told
                    something very interesting here; "This happens more often than one
                    would care to believe." Are not these words very thought provoking? Is
                    Harold admitting that being misled by the kal while within this
                    framework of eckankar,and, having his protection of the Vi-Guru, being
                    misled by the kal is a common occurance? If this is so, then the
                    claimed protection of the vi-guru must be failing to work. Not only
                    that, the secret words must also be failing. Let the world see what
                    eckankar has to say about the protection of its secret words:

                    Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                    "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and
                    the tests given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears.
                    Every Spiritual Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela
                    to call upon the Master. If the vision fails to reply then it is
                    false".

                    Let it go on record that the visions within the journal's inner
                    experiences did reply and that I used the Word, and Words as is asked
                    of the chela. Some of these words being Sugmad, Wah Z, HU, Mahanta, or
                    any of the names of the masters of the vairagi.

                    Here I think we should let the world know just how important this
                    figure of the mahanta, the vi-guru really is, otherwise they may not
                    fully realise just how powerful the mahanta truly is?

                    Shariyat book 2 page 196. Second Edition 1988:
                    "The eck works are the most powerful in this world; and the mahanta,
                    the living eck master, who is the vehicle and channel for the eck, is
                    the most powerful being within the physical world, as well as the
                    planets and all the planes within the worlds of God."

                    Shariyat, book 1 says on page 81. Third Printing 1972:
                    "He is stronger than any man in intellect or spirit, for he has
                    unlimited power, and yet this strength is combined with the noble
                    virtues of the humble and gentle. All people find in him inspiration
                    for the development of noble character".

                    Shariyat, book 2 page 184 Second Edition 1988:
                    "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master has other titles. He is the
                    Godman, the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver, protector of the poor, the king
                    of heaven, saviour of mankind, the scourge of evil, and the defender of
                    the faithful. He is the real and only power in all the universes of
                    God. No one can harm him without his consent, for all that is done to
                    him is given permission by the ECK, with his consent".

                    To help further my spiritual growth within this framework of eckankar,
                    the mahanta now goes on to say:

                    "As a spiritual discipline you are put back to the First Circle of
                    initiation and are to stand aside from all eck duties for the present."

                    We can show the world that this is also against what the framework of
                    eckankar teaches:

                    Dialogues With The Master page 172:
                    First Printing 1990 "Remember this that those who demand respect and
                    love of others to themselves are only exercising the negative or
                    attracting power. The true teachings do not discipline in any way; do
                    not set up duties or difficulties or tasks for teaching their
                    disciples."

                    This framework also tells the world, and its followers, that the
                    teacher will bring about any changes needed within a chela without any
                    pain or difficulties.

                    Illuminated Way Letters 1966-1971 page 54 Copyright 1975 by Gail
                    Twitchell Gross:
                    "It is doubtful that the teacher will sit with his chela and discuss
                    any character faults of the aspirant. Hardly ever will the teachers
                    tell anyone what is wrong with himself, but he will concentrate on the
                    error and bring about the change from the inner to the outer world,
                    without pain or difficulty to the chelas, very often without the chela
                    having any conscious awareness of it."

                    Dear friend, and the world. I am fully aware of what this framework of
                    eckankar has done to me, I am also fully aware of what this framework
                    has done to many others, and this is the reason why the framework of
                    the H.C.S. was brought about. It was brought about to help those who
                    have suffered the injustice of eckankar at the hands of its
                    mythological mahanta and to give them support and a free voice.

                    We can now look to another aspect of this frameworks teachings, if not
                    its practice, that of calling upon the master when the chela finds
                    themselves in any difficulty:

                    I was now left with no other recourse to attain further guidance other
                    than to write to the mahanta at the physical level. As yet, nothing has
                    been given. Now for the eckankar apologists they can say, "Get It On
                    The Inner", but, and this is very very very important, how can the
                    individual `Get It On The Inner` when the mahanta has just told the
                    individual that all they have received on the inner is the misleadings
                    of the kal? That the chela has the right to call upon the mahanta is
                    given in the frameworks teachings. Not only has the chela the right to
                    call upon the mahanta, but the mahanta is bound by his duty to answer
                    each and every call of this nature. Let the world see the following
                    exhibit:

                    Illuminated Way Letters, 1966-1971, PAGE 130 Copyright 1975 by Gail
                    Twitchell Gross: "Whenever the chela experiences any difficulty with
                    himself such as falling into the negative trap, or even with Soul
                    Travel, he should call upon the Master to assist him, or conduct him as
                    the soul traveller to the spiritual worlds. For the Living ECK Master
                    is bound by his mission to answer each and every call of this nature".

                    Let it go on record, that the mahanta has failed in his duty, both to
                    give the inner protection that his framework promises to give, and that
                    he has also failed to assist a chela when called upon to do so. Now
                    the world can see what the framework of eckankar says about a master
                    failing in his duty:

                    Shariyat, book 2, page 219. Second Edition 1988:
                    "If he falters or fails; it is possible that he may be taken out of
                    this position; and if he falters in his responsibility while serving as
                    the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, it is possible that he must step
                    down for another to take his place".

                    Unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to let all see the contents of my
                    journal and come to their own understanding, and, unlike the mahanta,
                    I am prepared to answer any questions that others may wish to ask. The
                    framework of the H.C.S. has provided this facility for openness and
                    free speech, the framework of eckankar has provided only threats to
                    those who voice dissension and doubt.

                    Shariyat, book 1, page 91. Third Printing 1972:
                    "To ridicule, to scorn, to speak mockingly of the word of the Mahanta,
                    and not to have faith in him and the cause of ECK is to bring woes on
                    the advocator of doubt. It brings his karmic progress to a halt,
                    increases his incarnations in this world, and causes him to suffer
                    untold hardships".

                    Even if a chela, or chela's tries to broach a question that is not
                    wanted by the framework of
                    eckankar and its leader, its teachings provide a guidance for the party
                    faithful of how to view
                    this dissesion within the ranks.

                    Shariyat, book 2, pages 25-26. Second Edition 1988:
                    " It must be remembered that all complaints and all arguments against
                    the ECK, which are directed at the Mahanta, are the works of the Kal.
                    Such assaults on the Mahanta are those which originate from the Kal
                    using the minds and consciousness of those persons within its power to
                    destroy the Mahanta and the ECK, if at all possible. These are the
                    works of the Kal, who uses religion, ministers, and lay persons to
                    bring about the downfall of the ECK, because it is the truth. There
                    will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and disguise themselves
                    under the robes of the ECK, but they are prophets with false faces who
                    are lying to the ECKist`s , but few if any who are true followers of
                    the ECK are ever deceived by these agents of the Kal".

                    What Harold Klemp and the eckankar organisation have chosen to ignore
                    is that truth, a truth that can be proven, is not an assault upon the
                    mahanta, it is an assault upon that which is untrue. If Harold Klemp as
                    the mahanta and the eckankar organisation see, and feel, that this as
                    an assault upon them, then it can only be because they have something
                    to hide. Truth knows no fear, so why does the framework of eckankar
                    hide behind a wall of silence, instead of making a stand upon its
                    proclaimed truth in order to defend the truth of the sugmad and its
                    faithful followers?

                    Let those who have the eyes to see and the ears to ear reach their own
                    verdict from the `Facts` provided by the framework of eckankar itself ,
                    and its application of its teachings by the mahanta. `By Their Actions
                    Ye Shall Know Them`

                    Dear friend, and the world, I rest my case.

                    Usually Skeptical
                    02/07/2004
                    Top

                    Response to eckie_99: I Took Your Test and Got An "A" !

                    Dear ekie,

                    Well, I looked at your test questions and have the answers... !.)

                    1.)
                    Q- What is more ethically incorrect?
                    A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold

                    2.)
                    Q- Who is less truthful?
                    A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold (that was just like #1!)

                    3.)
                    Q- Who is spiritually more developed?
                    A- "C" Those who are not afraid to see and hear truth

                    4.)
                    Q- What is a bigger spiritual crime?
                    A- "C" Not to give people the opportunity to know and choose truth over
                    lies

                    That wasn't so hard after all... was it!

                    I graded it myself and got 100% correct!

                    Usually Skeptical

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"
                    <etznab@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                    admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"
                    >
                    > Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original
                    links/threads for complete context.)
                    >
                    > To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is
                    still a long post though.
                    >
                    > (1)
                    >
                    > Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online
                    book:
                    >
                    > [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
                    self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day
                    I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in
                    the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his
                    home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was
                    trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The
                    Master.
                    >
                    > The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by
                    Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely
                    sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was
                    mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a
                    discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I
                    can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and
                    I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.
                    >
                    > So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had
                    ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested,
                    told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I
                    told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes
                    I was sorting through, but I would run ho<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Etznab and All, Yes, as you ve pointed out (below) both Marman and Klemp have similar versions about the facts concerning Twitchell s fictional account
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 8 8:36 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Etznab and All,
                      Yes, as you've pointed
                      out (below) both Marman
                      and Klemp have similar
                      versions about the "facts"
                      concerning Twitchell's
                      fictional account of meeting
                      Rebazar Tarzs. Too bad
                      they overlooked Twitchell's
                      version, and the timeline
                      conflict, from his June,
                      1971 interviews which
                      are mentioned in "Difficulties
                      Of Becoming The Living
                      ECK Master":

                      [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]

                      "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                      Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                      1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                      Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                      Singh, who is not the same person at all.

                      "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                      whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                      all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                      more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                      initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                      "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                      just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                      report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                      Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

                      [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                      Harold Klemp - see link]

                      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

                      ********************************

                      Fact: Twitchell was born on Oct. 22, 1908
                      (According to Harold Klemp).

                      Fact: Twitchell states on page 45 of "Difficulties:"
                      "Sudar Singh... He died, I believe, if I'm correct,
                      1937; could have been a year or two off someway
                      there, but it was approximately in that year he
                      passed away. We [Paul and his sister Kay-Dee]
                      stayed there almost a year and were shipped
                      home because our parents were screaming bloody-
                      murder, and then finally they cut our money off
                      and we were forced to return."

                      ME: PT is, basically, saying that at 15 years of
                      age this was his 1st trip to India. More "facts"
                      to prove this are listed later.

                      Fact: Harold Klemp attended and graduated
                      from a private Lutheran all boys school and
                      seminary.

                      Fact: Twitchell states on page 47 of "Difficulties"
                      "... the same thing occurs in the seminaries of
                      the Christian church. These Christian seminaries,
                      when you're training boys to grow up, they are
                      looking for all the things which will explain to
                      them manhood or the problems of life. It can
                      create sexual aberrations... you can walk around
                      the corner of one of the ashrams or the monasteries
                      and find the boys there abusing themselves." (pg 47)

                      ME: It's possible, according to Twitchell, that
                      this "abuse" contributed to Klemp's mental
                      break-down circa 1969-70.

                      Fact: Twitchell states on page 48 of "Difficulties:"
                      "After I had left India, came home, I was then about
                      sixteen, I had a year or so to do some work in order
                      to finish my degree."

                      ME: PT Born 1908, plus, age 15 equals 1923.

                      Fact: Twitchell states on page 70 of "Difficulties:"
                      "Well, anyway, in about 1947, it was right shortly
                      after the Indians nation, India received their freedom
                      from England and then became a nation, and they
                      had the great riots and that was over with. I went
                      over to Darjeeling in the east section of India.
                      Darjeeling is up in the northeast of India, right on
                      the Sikkim border.... I went up there at the time
                      after being over in Allahabad, and there wasn't
                      much left there after Sudar Singh had passed away."

                      FYI: [Actually PT changed Kirpal Singh's name to
                      Sudar Singh, and Kirpal died two years after Paul
                      in 1973]

                      PT: "But then I went there and I'd been told
                      that I would find the ECK Master Rebazar Tarzs.
                      I've got something about that in one of my books,
                      I think it's Introduction to ECK in which I have it...
                      I stayed there for quite some time with him, six
                      to seven months... Now, he initiated me there.
                      I had already been initiated by Sudar Singh, the
                      same as everybody else, the second initiation.
                      And then I got the third and the fourth. I went
                      up through about the seventh at this particular
                      time.

                      Then he moved across over into Kashmir,
                      up in the Hindu Kush Mountains, and later
                      [1951] but not on this trip, I followed him
                      up there and got the finish of my initiations."
                      [page 71]


                      Timeline of Facts:

                      1923 - PT claims that he and his sister met
                      Sudar in Paris and traveled with him to India.
                      This was PT's 1st trip to India at age 15 and
                      received his 1st and 2nd initiations from Sudar
                      Singh.

                      1935 - Harold Klemp (on Eckankar.org) states
                      that Twitchell, at age 27, was "exaggerating"
                      and "twisting facts" to get into "Who's Who in
                      Kentucky," and that Twitchell had never traveled
                      all that far from home.

                      1947 - PT claims he had his 2nd trip to India
                      (at age 35) and received his 3rd-7th initiations
                      from Rebazar while staying with him for six
                      to seven months.

                      1951 - PT claims he went back to India (his
                      3rd trip at age 39) and received the "finish"
                      of his initiations from Rebazar Tarzs.

                      Did Twitchell "finish" with a 9th or a 12th
                      initiation in 1951?

                      Fact: In any case, the 14th Mahanta was never
                      mentioned by Twitchell until January 1969.

                      Fact: Harold Klemp states on eckankar.org
                      that at age 27 (1935) that Twitchell was
                      "exaggerating" and "twisting facts" to get
                      into Who's Who in Kentucky and that PT
                      had never traveled all that far from home
                      as he was claiming.

                      Factual Conclusion:

                      Twitchell lied about going to India to
                      meet Sudar Singh at age 15, plus, he
                      lied about this in 1971 as the "Mahanta"
                      just months before his untimely death.

                      And, PT continued the lie with the story
                      of meeting Rebazar in 1947. He connected
                      that lie to the one about getting his 1st
                      and 2nd initiations from Sudar, in India,
                      at the age of 15.

                      Thus, the story about meeting Rebazar,
                      again, on a third visit, circa 1951, to
                      "finish" his initiations is also a fabrication
                      of truth! Paul couldn't help himself. PT
                      was a habitual liar and a narcissist, and
                      for Klemp to point that out just shows
                      that HK was not only ignorant of the
                      timeline, but isn't all that capable/aware
                      of connecting the dots.

                      Plus, after Twitchell, supposedly,
                      received the "finish" of his initiations,
                      in 1951, it took until 1969 [18 years!]
                      for Twitchell to mention the "Mahanta"
                      for the first time in an ECK publication.
                      This is more proof that Twitchell created
                      the Mahanta just as he created Rebazar
                      and the other ECK Masters... it's all
                      a big fat lie! Even the Sant Mat crap
                      that Twitchell copied and tweaked
                      is a false teaching.

                      These facts are the main reason this
                      book, "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                      Living ECK Master" will never ever be
                      reprinted.... without heavy handed
                      reediting.

                      Prometheus


                      etznab@... wrote:
                      >
                      > What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug
                      > Marman's use of the word "facts".
                      >
                      > In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my questions
                      > about Rebazar Tarzs on a.r.e. - it seemed to me that in some respects
                      > "facts" were somehow "secondary" to spiritual experience.
                      >
                      > I thoiught about the a.r.e. thread last night trying to fathom what
                      > Doug was saying about Paul's stories and things said (some of them) not
                      > based on facts. And frankly, it still didn't jive with me. Off hand I
                      > can remember at least two places where Paul Twitchell illustrated that
                      > Rebazar Tarzs "told him" what to write. In one place (I believe)
                      > Rebazar Tarzs comes to Paul's room, wakes him up, tells him to take up
                      > the pencil and write. (I'm referring to Dialogues With The Master and
                      > The Far Country.) So how can Doug suggest those were Paul's words based
                      > on a spiritual experience?
                      > Paul wrote (in so many words) that Rebazar Tarzs came and materialized
                      > in his room, and in one instance (I believe) the mattress sank from the
                      > weight of R.T. sitting on it.
                      >
                      > It would be nice if everybody didn't go away, all those Eckists on the
                      > newsgroups, and if the string of dialogues could continue today. I say
                      > this because there is a lot more information and examples available to
                      > share where many of "Paul's words" read as plagiarized from various
                      > books by other authors - none of them by the name of Rebazar Tarzs, or
                      > other Eck masters.
                      >
                      > ***
                      >
                      > "They" didn't succeed at booting me from a.r.e., and I didn't "move on"
                      > as once suggested. To the contrary I continued to research the FACTS -
                      > whether anybody likeed it or not - and have reams of examples (which
                      > can be illustrated and verified by REAL evidence and FACTS) about many
                      > of the things people were chewing on and debating over for years before
                      > I arrived. Some of the examples I (and others) have since found are
                      > those that not even David Lane was aware of (I'm talking about examples
                      > of Paul's writings compared with other authors) and I think probably
                      > that Doug Marman was unaware of.
                      >
                      > So new information has come in since the D.L. / D.M. debates, etc. New
                      > FACTS are now known. How facts can be important in one instance and
                      > something else in another ... I am not sure what Doug was talking
                      > about.
                      >
                      > I recall from the newspapers that sometimes when something happens that
                      > embarrasses the government and people want to know who is responsible -
                      > such as torture of prisoners, etc. - those higher up in the ladder
                      > have responded with things like: The first time I heard about it was
                      > from the news / newspaper. Iow, people claim ignorance and that they
                      > didn't know about something until it became public via the news. Well,
                      > to admit otherwise - and that they did know about it (and for a long
                      > time) - would be damning to them and public opinion would have them on
                      > a spike!
                      >
                      > Now I recall that (for some reason) Harold Klemp doesn't use the
                      > Internet. I'm sure he reads the newspapers and watches the news, but
                      > how much about the trove of FACTS regarding Paul's writings compared
                      > with other authors - INCLUDING REBAZAR TARZS - is in the newspapers, or
                      > on the evening news? (Maybe it should be?) Much of the new information
                      > and research has been put on the Internet. That's where it is (also in
                      > some books). And even there, we've probably all seen how apologists can
                      > argue against certain information being true, try to marginalize people
                      > and their research, even to the extent of suggesting (in so many words)
                      > that facts don't matter. Or, it's not about facts.
                      >
                      > Well, I've seen where it looks like people want to have it both ways.
                      > Facts matter. Facts don't matter. As far as research goes, and besides
                      > the stories of "spiritual experiences" that people send in, When was
                      > the last time the Eckankar website posted something about people doing
                      > real research into the stories told by Paul Twitchell? (Not to mention
                      > "research" about the stories sent in by Eckists today?) It was 1984
                      > when Harold came out with all that stuff about Paul Twitchell and when
                      > Harold did research. I wonder if they continue to research, or if (for
                      > some reason) it stopped a long time ago?
                      >
                      > Oh yeah, I remember it now.
                      >
                      > "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
                      > researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
                      > turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to say
                      > that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I [Doug
                      > Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the records.
                      > Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past, which
                      > Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough study.
                      > Â Â
                      > "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
                      > about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
                      > further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and worked
                      > for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early days.
                      > So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [....] A few
                      > months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
                      > began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
                      > share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
                      > anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
                      > unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
                      > see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [....]"
                      >
                      > [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
                      >
                      > "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                      > Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                      > 1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                      > Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                      > Singh, who is not the same person at all.
                      > "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                      > whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                      > all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                      > more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                      > initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                      > "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                      > just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                      > report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                      > Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."
                      >
                      > [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                      > Harold Klemp - see link]
                      >
                      > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training
                      >
                      > They got reports? Hmm ... then maybe I should send in a report? :)
                      >
                      > I could give other examples where it looks like Eckankar is interested
                      > in stories from other people, including what people found by research.
                      > Apparently though, the LEM. isn't going to simply look at the Eck-Vidya
                      > and share answers to all of the questions people have. At the same time
                      > though, it looks like people pick and choose from all the information
                      > only what "THEY WANT" the facts to be and put the rest under the rug.
                      >
                      > If one disregards the reported facts written by Paul Twitchell
                      > concerning his meetings, encounters, and relationships with Eck Masters
                      > then where does it leave you? In Never Never Land with Peter Pan and
                      > Tinker Bell, etc.? (Hey look! He's playing a flute!)
                      >
                      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverland
                      >
                      > Are "spiritual experiences", the "stories" (and the stories that people
                      > send in) somehow more REAL than factual accounts which can be
                      > researched and verified? Or, Are "spiritual experiences" sometimes used
                      > as a label for anything a person wants to be true? Iow, does the land
                      > of make believe trump the actual facts? This is what it comes down to,
                      > IMO.
                    • Janice Pfeiffer
                      Thank you etznab for clarifying.  ... From: etznab18 Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited) To:
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 9 12:09 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thank you etznab for clarifying. 

                        --- On Sun, 5/6/12, etznab18 <etznab@...> wrote:

                        From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sunday, May 6, 2012, 2:50 AM

                         
                        "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                        Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

                        To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

                        (1)

                        Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                        [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

                        The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                        So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                        It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

                        http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                        (2)

                        July 2001:

                        "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

                        Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                        http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                        (3)

                        July 2003:

                        Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                        What are your on that stuff ?
                        I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                        As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
                        It's all a matter of perspective.
                        I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
                        On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                        http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                        (4) February 2004:

                        "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                        http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                        (5)

                        March 2007:

                        [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
                        Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                        I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                        So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
                        I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                        These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                        In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                        http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Prometheus,
                        >  
                        > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
                        >  
                        > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
                        >  
                        > Thanks
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello Janice and All,
                        > Interesting. I think I'll
                        > share some comments
                        > to your insights below.
                        >
                        > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                        > "Prometheus,
                        >
                        > Now that is very interesting.
                        >
                        > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                        >
                        > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                        >
                        > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                        >
                        > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                        >
                        > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                        > many of us have had similar
                        > experiences of being attacked
                        > by negative entities and having
                        > to defend ourselves. In this case
                        > your RESA was, also, one of these
                        > negative beings. Too bad you
                        > couldn't protect yourself from
                        > them, but it's deceptive when
                        > one has placed trust in a RESA
                        > by assuming they are always
                        > positive and always on your side.
                        > They are as closed minded and
                        > defensive as is any religionist
                        > when protecting their dogma
                        > from too much scrutiny.
                        >
                        > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
                        >
                        > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                        > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                        > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                        > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                        > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                        > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                        > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                        > meditation/contemplation one will change
                        > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                        > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                        > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                        > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                        > when attention is placed upon these
                        > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                        > and every other conman knew and uses
                        > and what Klemp continues to use as
                        > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                        > the magician uses while the viewer's
                        > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                        >
                        >
                        > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
                        >
                        > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                        > are real. It could very well be that demons
                        > are metaphors for those things that bother
                        > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                        > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                        > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                        > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                        > have problems since they tend to pick and
                        > choose what is easy for them to believe
                        > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                        > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                        > narrow, terms.
                        >
                        >
                        > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                        > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
                        >
                        > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                        > He had the by-laws changed
                        > after he took over from D.G.
                        > and neither the President nor
                        > the EK Board has any voting
                        > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                        > and fire. The local Satsang
                        > Societies and local Boards have
                        > been set up the same (As Above).
                        > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                        > fire the local Presidents and
                        > Board members and the votes
                        > of Board members carry no
                        > authority! The RESA has the
                        > sole authority, unless, a higher
                        > authority at the ESC steps in.
                        > However, when this is done
                        > it is always with the approval
                        > of Klemp and under his direction.
                        >
                        >
                        > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
                        >
                        > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                        > ECK Master" was the best book written
                        > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                        > There were three interviews done around
                        > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                        > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                        > is that after all of these years he's still
                        > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                        > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                        > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                        > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                        > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                        > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                        > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                        > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                        > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                        > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                        > comments about how he confused things
                        > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                        > could take it easy during the start of
                        > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                        > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                        > accomplish!
                        >
                        > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                        >
                        > ME: I think that we all have to get
                        > over the guilt and shame of being
                        > tricked. Look at all of those who
                        > belong to a religion and donate
                        > time and money in order to get
                        > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                        > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                        > too! People need to believe in
                        > something that can give them
                        > hope and to help them to maintain
                        > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                        > know what people want and need.
                        > Attitude is, also, important but
                        > there's a fine line between being
                        > positive and being delusional.
                        > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                        > where to draw the line and some
                        > of us have more difficulty with
                        > seeing the good versus seeing
                        > the bad. However, I don't think
                        > that seeing the glass half-empty
                        > is always wrong, but it does present
                        > more of a challenge to overcome.
                        >
                        > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                        > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                        >
                        > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                        > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                        > and do a strip tease at an airport
                        > and choose jail or a mental institution
                        > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                        > was a liar up to the moment of his
                        > untimely death and, thus, was not
                        > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                        > him. Besides, many people have
                        > done stupid things when confused
                        > with life and have sought "spiritual
                        > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                        > claim that their mental missteps
                        > and episodes were "spiritual
                        > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                        > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                        > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                        > excuse his mental confusion.
                        > After all, HK's the leader of a
                        > church and has to be above
                        > and beyond reproach. It's a
                        > pretend game where he has
                        > to, partially, buy into the hype
                        > in order to seem authentic.
                        >
                        > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
                        >
                        > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                        > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                        > as long as they don't know who I am.
                        > That could/would change I'm sure.
                        > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                        > and I could understand that, however,
                        > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                        > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                        > not due to Eckankar or because of
                        > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                        > That crap just gets in the way and
                        > causes more codependency. Any
                        > growth or realization leading to
                        > an expanded awareness is learned
                        > and earned by the individual. It's
                        > their own personal and private
                        > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                        > whatever one wants to call this
                        > divine essence, or not, that leads
                        > to a divine knowingness and to
                        > contentment!
                        >
                        > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
                        >
                        > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                        > while knowing about the deceptions
                        > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                        > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                        > why throw the baby out with the
                        > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                        > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                        > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                        > works why complain? H.I.s have
                        > put blinders on in order to stay
                        > the course and maintain their
                        > prestigious positions which took
                        > them decades of time and money
                        > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                        > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                        > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                        > that did the same... picked and
                        > chose what they wanted to follow
                        > and believe. However, that's not
                        > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                        > work. One is supposed to take
                        > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                        > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                        > only the best from all of the other
                        > religions and experts, etc. in order
                        > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                        > dogma to the modern Western
                        > world. Thus, how can one pick
                        > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                        > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                        > following the guidance and the will
                        > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                        > they are heretics!
                        >
                        > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                        >
                        > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                        > Humans are social animals
                        > and most like to follow in
                        > one way or another because
                        > it's easier to follow than to
                        > lead. Being a follower requires
                        > less thought and energy. It's
                        > less demanding, less consuming,
                        > and is less stressful. It is true
                        > that the Higher one is with
                        > initiations, years, and titles
                        > the more lost that individual
                        > is. They've bought into it
                        > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                        > Klemp! However, the ones
                        > to really feel sorry for are those
                        > ESC staffers who know it's all
                        > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                        > but they have to put on an act
                        > in order to keep their jobs,
                        > health care, retirement, etc.
                        >
                        >
                        > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                        >
                        > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                        > friend of Klemp's who's an
                        > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                        > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                        > out there that have overlooked
                        > many facts and are based upon
                        > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                        > however, is that Doug's stated
                        > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                        > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                        > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                        > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                        > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                        > After all, PT needed to have
                        > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                        > his real master, initiate him.
                        > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                        > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                        > has admitted that Twitchell
                        > created the Mahanta title in
                        > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                        > omits all of this information
                        > in his books!
                        >
                        > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
                        >
                        > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                        >
                        > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
                        >
                        > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                        > It was interesting for me to
                        > comment.
                        >
                        >
                        > prometheus wrote:
                        >
                        > This is an entertaining approach.
                        >
                        > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                        >
                        > Prometheus
                        >

                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello All, What I found interesting is that Klemp mentions Kirpal s name 15 times and Sudar s name 4 times. Just check the Twitchell info on Eckankar.org and
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 9 10:47 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello All,
                          What I found interesting
                          is that Klemp mentions
                          Kirpal's name 15 times
                          and Sudar's name 4 times.

                          Just check the Twitchell
                          info on Eckankar.org and
                          count it up for yourselves.
                          HK mentions that Twit had
                          a falling out with Kirpal
                          (for some unknown reason)
                          and that Kirpal had possession
                          of Paul's "The Tiger's Fang"
                          manuscript which he, later,
                          returned circa June, 1966.

                          The "falling out" was because
                          Paul had "exaggerated" and
                          "twisted facts" as Klemp states
                          Twit had done at age 27 (1935)
                          to get into Who's Who in Kentucky.

                          Even though the Tiger's Fang
                          story made Kirpal (aka Rebazar,
                          et al.) appear to be a great master,
                          it also made Paul look like a
                          Master as well. PT was using
                          Kirpal to self-promote himself
                          and Kirpal was aware of Paul's
                          scam to place himself on a
                          plane of consciousness near
                          Kirpal's!

                          Think about this. Would Klemp
                          allow similar stories to be published
                          in EK Newsletters that would
                          place low level EKists on these
                          Higher Planes? Never! Klemp
                          would see it as a challenge to
                          his authority just as Kirpal did.

                          It's obvious that Kirpal Singh
                          was Paul's true master and
                          not Sudar Singh.

                          What's this mean?

                          Well, it means that Paul
                          lied and there are EK books
                          that perpetuate this same
                          lie.

                          It also means that Sudar
                          never existed. Thus, Paul
                          was never initiated by Sudar
                          into ECKankar. If anything,
                          Paul was initiated into Radhasoami
                          by Kirpal Singh (btw- Radhasoami
                          is a sect of Ruhani Satsang).

                          And, this means that Eckankar
                          is, actually, a sect of the sect
                          of Radhasoami. Look at the
                          dogma! Eckankar's is practically
                          identical to Radhasoami and
                          to Ruhani Satsang. Sects, basically,
                          follow the same dogma of the
                          original teaching but tend
                          to do some tweaking due to
                          a falling out regarding leadership.

                          Regardless of tapes that Twit
                          made, after-the-fact and about
                          fake masters like Rebazar, we
                          still have the June, 1971 interviews
                          that Twit did for "Difficulties
                          Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."

                          What Paul lied about in June 1971
                          as the "Full" Mahanta (created in 1969)
                          is more important than what he said
                          earlier.

                          Plus, we have the Timelines which
                          show more of PT's lies.

                          And, we have Klemp, on Eckankar.org,
                          stating that Kirpal Singh had possession
                          of PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript.
                          This was a manuscript... not a book!

                          Plus, we have Klemp stating that
                          Twitchell was a liar who "exaggerated"
                          and "twisted facts" along with several
                          on-going comments about Paul being
                          a (somewhat shameless) self-promoter.

                          The sum of these facts make it
                          almost impossible for any objective
                          person Not to be able to see the
                          truth and connect-the-dots and
                          know, without a reasonable doubt,
                          that Twitchell was a fake master,
                          plagiarist, and a conman.

                          Prometheus


                          Janice wrote:

                          Thank you etznab for clarifying.

                          Etznab wrote:

                          "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                          Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

                          To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

                          (1)

                          Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                          [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

                          The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                          So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                          It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

                          http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                          (2)

                          July 2001:

                          "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

                          Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                          http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                          (3)

                          July 2003:

                          Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                          What are your on that stuff ?
                          I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                          As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
                          It's all a matter of perspective.
                          I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
                          On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                          http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                          (4) February 2004:

                          "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                          http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                          (5)

                          March 2007:

                          [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
                          Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                          I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                          So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
                          I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                          These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                          In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                          http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Prometheus,
                          > Â
                          > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank you for being such a wise soul.
                          > Â
                          > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? The circus of eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization. It appears like a house of cards. Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event. Any ideas?
                          > Â
                          > Thanks
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Â
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hello Janice and All,
                          > Interesting. I think I'll
                          > share some comments
                          > to your insights below.
                          >
                          > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                          > "Prometheus,
                          >
                          > Now that is very interesting.
                          >
                          > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                          >
                          > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                          >
                          > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                          >
                          > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                          >
                          > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                          > many of us have had similar
                          > experiences of being attacked
                          > by negative entities and having
                          > to defend ourselves. In this case
                          > your RESA was, also, one of these
                          > negative beings. Too bad you
                          > couldn't protect yourself from
                          > them, but it's deceptive when
                          > one has placed trust in a RESA
                          > by assuming they are always
                          > positive and always on your side.
                          > They are as closed minded and
                          > defensive as is any religionist
                          > when protecting their dogma
                          > from too much scrutiny.
                          >
                          > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
                          >
                          > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                          > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                          > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                          > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                          > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                          > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                          > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                          > meditation/contemplation one will change
                          > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                          > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                          > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                          > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                          > when attention is placed upon these
                          > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                          > and every other conman knew and uses
                          > and what Klemp continues to use as
                          > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                          > the magician uses while the viewer's
                          > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                          >
                          >
                          > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
                          >
                          > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                          > are real. It could very well be that demons
                          > are metaphors for those things that bother
                          > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                          > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                          > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                          > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                          > have problems since they tend to pick and
                          > choose what is easy for them to believe
                          > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                          > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                          > narrow, terms.
                          >
                          >
                          > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                          > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
                          >
                          > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                          > He had the by-laws changed
                          > after he took over from D.G.
                          > and neither the President nor
                          > the EK Board has any voting
                          > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                          > and fire. The local Satsang
                          > Societies and local Boards have
                          > been set up the same (As Above).
                          > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                          > fire the local Presidents and
                          > Board members and the votes
                          > of Board members carry no
                          > authority! The RESA has the
                          > sole authority, unless, a higher
                          > authority at the ESC steps in.
                          > However, when this is done
                          > it is always with the approval
                          > of Klemp and under his direction.
                          >
                          >
                          > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
                          >
                          > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                          > ECK Master" was the best book written
                          > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                          > There were three interviews done around
                          > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                          > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                          > is that after all of these years he's still
                          > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                          > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                          > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                          > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                          > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                          > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                          > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                          > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                          > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                          > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                          > comments about how he confused things
                          > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                          > could take it easy during the start of
                          > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                          > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                          > accomplish!
                          >
                          > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                          >
                          > ME: I think that we all have to get
                          > over the guilt and shame of being
                          > tricked. Look at all of those who
                          > belong to a religion and donate
                          > time and money in order to get
                          > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                          > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                          > too! People need to believe in
                          > something that can give them
                          > hope and to help them to maintain
                          > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                          > know what people want and need.
                          > Attitude is, also, important but
                          > there's a fine line between being
                          > positive and being delusional.
                          > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                          > where to draw the line and some
                          > of us have more difficulty with
                          > seeing the good versus seeing
                          > the bad. However, I don't think
                          > that seeing the glass half-empty
                          > is always wrong, but it does present
                          > more of a challenge to overcome.
                          >
                          > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                          > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                          >
                          > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                          > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                          > and do a strip tease at an airport
                          > and choose jail or a mental institution
                          > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                          > was a liar up to the moment of his
                          > untimely death and, thus, was not
                          > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                          > him. Besides, many people have
                          > done stupid things when confused
                          > with life and have sought "spiritual
                          > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                          > claim that their mental missteps
                          > and episodes were "spiritual
                          > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                          > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                          > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                          > excuse his mental confusion.
                          > After all, HK's the leader of a
                          > church and has to be above
                          > and beyond reproach. It's a
                          > pretend game where he has
                          > to, partially, buy into the hype
                          > in order to seem authentic.
                          >
                          > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
                          >
                          > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                          > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                          > as long as they don't know who I am.
                          > That could/would change I'm sure.
                          > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                          > and I could understand that, however,
                          > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                          > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                          > not due to Eckankar or because of
                          > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                          > That crap just gets in the way and
                          > causes more codependency. Any
                          > growth or realization leading to
                          > an expanded awareness is learned
                          > and earned by the individual. It's
                          > their own personal and private
                          > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                          > whatever one wants to call this
                          > divine essence, or not, that leads
                          > to a divine knowingness and to
                          > contentment!
                          >
                          > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
                          >
                          > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                          > while knowing about the deceptions
                          > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                          > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                          > why throw the baby out with the
                          > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                          > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                          > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                          > works why complain? H.I.s have
                          > put blinders on in order to stay
                          > the course and maintain their
                          > prestigious positions which took
                          > them decades of time and money
                          > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                          > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                          > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                          > that did the same... picked and
                          > chose what they wanted to follow
                          > and believe. However, that's not
                          > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                          > work. One is supposed to take
                          > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                          > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                          > only the best from all of the other
                          > religions and experts, etc. in order
                          > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                          > dogma to the modern Western
                          > world. Thus, how can one pick
                          > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                          > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                          > following the guidance and the will
                          > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                          > they are heretics!
                          >
                          > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                          >
                          > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                          > Humans are social animals
                          > and most like to follow in
                          > one way or another because
                          > it's easier to follow than to
                          > lead. Being a follower requires
                          > less thought and energy. It's
                          > less demanding, less consuming,
                          > and is less stressful. It is true
                          > that the Higher one is with
                          > initiations, years, and titles
                          > the more lost that individual
                          > is. They've bought into it
                          > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                          > Klemp! However, the ones
                          > to really feel sorry for are those
                          > ESC staffers who know it's all
                          > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                          > but they have to put on an act
                          > in order to keep their jobs,
                          > health care, retirement, etc.
                          >
                          >
                          > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                          >
                          > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                          > friend of Klemp's who's an
                          > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                          > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                          > out there that have overlooked
                          > many facts and are based upon
                          > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                          > however, is that Doug's stated
                          > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                          > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                          > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                          > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                          > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                          > After all, PT needed to have
                          > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                          > his real master, initiate him.
                          > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                          > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                          > has admitted that Twitchell
                          > created the Mahanta title in
                          > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                          > omits all of this information
                          > in his books!
                          >
                          > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
                          >
                          > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                          >
                          > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
                          >
                          > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                          > It was interesting for me to
                          > comment.
                          >
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > This is an entertaining approach.
                          >
                          > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                        • etznab@aol.com
                          Nice post there. Lots of good points. Thanks. ... From: prometheus_973 To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 10 3:35 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Nice post there. Lots of good points. Thanks.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wed, May 9, 2012 12:48 pm
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                            (Revisited)

                             
                            Hello All,
                            What I found interesting
                            is that Klemp mentions
                            Kirpal's name 15 times
                            and Sudar's name 4 times.

                            Just check the Twitchell
                            info on Eckankar.org and
                            count it up for yourselves.
                            HK mentions that Twit had
                            a falling out with Kirpal
                            (for some unknown reason)
                            and that Kirpal had possession
                            of Paul's "The Tiger's Fang"
                            manuscript which he, later,
                            returned circa June, 1966.

                            The "falling out" was because
                            Paul had "exaggerated" and
                            "twisted facts" as Klemp states
                            Twit had done at age 27 (1935)
                            to get into Who's Who in Kentucky.

                            Even though the Tiger's Fang
                            story made Kirpal (aka Rebazar,
                            et al.) appear to be a great master,
                            it also made Paul look like a
                            Master as well. PT was using
                            Kirpal to self-promote himself
                            and Kirpal was aware of Paul's
                            scam to place himself on a
                            plane of consciousness near
                            Kirpal's!

                            Think about this. Would Klemp
                            allow similar stories to be published
                            in EK Newsletters that would
                            place low level EKists on these
                            Higher Planes? Never! Klemp
                            would see it as a challenge to
                            his authority just as Kirpal did.

                            It's obvious that Kirpal Singh
                            was Paul's true master and
                            not Sudar Singh.

                            What's this mean?

                            Well, it means that Paul
                            lied and there are EK books
                            that perpetuate this same
                            lie.

                            It also means that Sudar
                            never existed. Thus, Paul
                            was never initiated by Sudar
                            into ECKankar. If anything,
                            Paul was initiated into Radhasoami
                            by Kirpal Singh (btw- Radhasoami
                            is a sect of Ruhani Satsang).

                            And, this means that Eckankar
                            is, actually, a sect of the sect
                            of Radhasoami. Look at the
                            dogma! Eckankar's is practically
                            identical to Radhasoami and
                            to Ruhani Satsang. Sects, basically,
                            follow the same dogma of the
                            original teaching but tend
                            to do some tweaking due to
                            a falling out regarding leadership.

                            Regardless of tapes that Twit
                            made, after-the-fact and about
                            fake masters like Rebazar, we
                            still have the June, 1971 interviews
                            that Twit did for "Difficulties
                            Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."

                            What Paul lied about in June 1971
                            as the "Full" Mahanta (created in 1969)
                            is more important than what he said
                            earlier.

                            Plus, we have the Timelines which
                            show more of PT's lies.

                            And, we have Klemp, on Eckankar.org,
                            stating that Kirpal Singh had possession
                            of PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript.
                            This was a manuscript... not a book!

                            Plus, we have Klemp stating that
                            Twitchell was a liar who "exaggerated"
                            and "twisted facts" along with several
                            on-going comments about Paul being
                            a (somewhat shameless) self-promoter.

                            The sum of these facts make it
                            almost impossible for any objective
                            person Not to be able to see the
                            truth and connect-the-dots and
                            know, without a reasonable doubt,
                            that Twitchell was a fake master,
                            plagiarist, and a conman.

                            Prometheus

                            Janice wrote:

                            Thank you etznab for clarifying.

                            Etznab wrote:

                            "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                            admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                            Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for
                            complete context.)

                            To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is
                            still a long post though.

                            (1)

                            Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                            [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
                            self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day
                            I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in
                            the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his
                            home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was
                            trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The
                            Master.

                            The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs.
                            Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying
                            something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the
                            voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from
                            Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember
                            much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could
                            hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                            So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard
                            anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me
                            that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told
                            Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I
                            was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I
                            immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                            It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a
                            deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire
                            to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused,
                            as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is
                            never any reason to rush." [... .]

                            http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                            (2)

                            July 2001:

                            "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT
                            my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David
                            Lane?]

                            Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't
                            David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought
                            that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's
                            Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but
                            was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967.
                            [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                            http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                            (3)

                            July 2003:

                            Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos
                            most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or
                            insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to
                            have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and
                            perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                            What are your on that stuff ?
                            I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the
                            fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual
                            dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different
                            picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from
                            other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                            As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look
                            back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with
                            Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to
                            leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I
                            took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the
                            new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are
                            almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I
                            was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a
                            spin-off.
                            It's all a matter of perspective.
                            I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously
                            liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even
                            used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country.
                            However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal
                            Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected
                            his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far
                            Country far differently.
                            On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he
                            wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's
                            books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a
                            serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure
                            Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                            http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                            (4) February 2004:

                            "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I
                            guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use
                            other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck
                            Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                            http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                            (5)

                            March 2007:

                            [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's
                            book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual
                            account?
                            Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is
                            he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                            I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By
                            The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works,
                            but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                            So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar
                            work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow
                            you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it
                            becomes a trust issue for them.
                            I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was
                            much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing
                            spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                            These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So,
                            I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he
                            was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                            In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book,
                            to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it
                            was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was
                            he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing
                            spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works
                            in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                            http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                            <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Prometheus,
                            > Â
                            > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It
                            gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank
                            you for being such a wise soul.
                            > Â
                            > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                            admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and
                            why? The circus of eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear
                            from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand
                            as an organization. It appears like a house of cards. Do you
                            think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you
                            think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their
                            membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.Â
                            Any ideas?
                            > Â
                            > Thanks
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of
                            ECKankar (Revisited)
                            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Â
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello Janice and All,
                            > Interesting. I think I'll
                            > share some comments
                            > to your insights below.
                            >
                            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            > "Prometheus,
                            >
                            > Now that is very interesting.
                            >
                            > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or
                            so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't
                            falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of
                            energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one
                            night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember
                            later. I know it started with a P.
                            >
                            > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind
                            and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but
                            I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp.
                            It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an
                            ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood
                            gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my
                            dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                            >
                            > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar
                            as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the
                            dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my
                            favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found
                            it very confusing to have these dreams.
                            >
                            > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long
                            term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions
                            that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck
                            teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was
                            true beauty in the teachings."
                            >
                            > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                            > many of us have had similar
                            > experiences of being attacked
                            > by negative entities and having
                            > to defend ourselves. In this case
                            > your RESA was, also, one of these
                            > negative beings. Too bad you
                            > couldn't protect yourself from
                            > them, but it's deceptive when
                            > one has placed trust in a RESA
                            > by assuming they are always
                            > positive and always on your side.
                            > They are as closed minded and
                            > defensive as is any religionist
                            > when protecting their dogma
                            > from too much scrutiny.
                            >
                            > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how
                            it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading
                            all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another
                            year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack
                            seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of
                            eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive
                            thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I
                            wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to
                            them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many
                            occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be
                            respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories
                            about the personal lives of other eckist."
                            >
                            > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                            > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                            > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                            > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                            > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                            > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                            > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                            > meditation/contemplation one will change
                            > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                            > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                            > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                            > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                            > when attention is placed upon these
                            > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                            > and every other conman knew and uses
                            > and what Klemp continues to use as
                            > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                            > the magician uses while the viewer's
                            > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                            >
                            >
                            > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind
                            eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with
                            demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have
                            always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or
                            demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say,
                            I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't
                            have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious
                            hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature
                            of eckankar."
                            >
                            > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                            > are real. It could very well be that demons
                            > are metaphors for those things that bother
                            > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                            > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                            > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                            > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                            > have problems since they tend to pick and
                            > choose what is easy for them to believe
                            > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                            > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                            > narrow, terms.
                            >
                            >
                            > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master
                            and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet
                            for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                            > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my
                            biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the
                            mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly
                            looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't
                            charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability
                            that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources
                            outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to
                            me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck
                            master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds
                            making up corporate eckankar."
                            >
                            > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                            > He had the by-laws changed
                            > after he took over from D.G.
                            > and neither the President nor
                            > the EK Board has any voting
                            > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                            > and fire. The local Satsang
                            > Societies and local Boards have
                            > been set up the same (As Above).
                            > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                            > fire the local Presidents and
                            > Board members and the votes
                            > of Board members carry no
                            > authority! The RESA has the
                            > sole authority, unless, a higher
                            > authority at the ESC steps in.
                            > However, when this is done
                            > it is always with the approval
                            > of Klemp and under his direction.
                            >
                            >
                            > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by
                            twitchell and others that the average person would think is not
                            spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great
                            power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been
                            removed from print."
                            >
                            > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                            > ECK Master" was the best book written
                            > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                            > There were three interviews done around
                            > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                            > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                            > is that after all of these years he's still
                            > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                            > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                            > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                            > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                            > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                            > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                            > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                            > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                            > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                            > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                            > comments about how he confused things
                            > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                            > could take it easy during the start of
                            > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                            > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                            > accomplish!
                            >
                            > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it
                            so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little
                            bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more
                            knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about
                            demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking
                            the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in
                            recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am
                            thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did
                            not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway.
                            Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am
                            ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think
                            most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                            >
                            > ME: I think that we all have to get
                            > over the guilt and shame of being
                            > tricked. Look at all of those who
                            > belong to a religion and donate
                            > time and money in order to get
                            > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                            > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                            > too! People need to believe in
                            > something that can give them
                            > hope and to help them to maintain
                            > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                            > know what people want and need.
                            > Attitude is, also, important but
                            > there's a fine line between being
                            > positive and being delusional.
                            > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                            > where to draw the line and some
                            > of us have more difficulty with
                            > seeing the good versus seeing
                            > the bad. However, I don't think
                            > that seeing the glass half-empty
                            > is always wrong, but it does present
                            > more of a challenge to overcome.
                            >
                            > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't
                            healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems.
                            Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot.
                            Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe
                            mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't
                            this great living eck master help them over come these things or at
                            least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck
                            master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is
                            necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp
                            describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with
                            a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in
                            public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed
                            the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was
                            woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                            > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in
                            twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                            >
                            > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                            > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                            > and do a strip tease at an airport
                            > and choose jail or a mental institution
                            > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                            > was a liar up to the moment of his
                            > untimely death and, thus, was not
                            > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                            > him. Besides, many people have
                            > done stupid things when confused
                            > with life and have sought "spiritual
                            > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                            > claim that their mental missteps
                            > and episodes were "spiritual
                            > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                            > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                            > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                            > excuse his mental confusion.
                            > After all, HK's the leader of a
                            > church and has to be above
                            > and beyond reproach. It's a
                            > pretend game where he has
                            > to, partially, buy into the hype
                            > in order to seem authentic.
                            >
                            > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and
                            who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well
                            adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this
                            article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is
                            possible to grow in eckankar."
                            >
                            > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                            > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                            > as long as they don't know who I am.
                            > That could/would change I'm sure.
                            > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                            > and I could understand that, however,
                            > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                            > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                            > not due to Eckankar or because of
                            > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                            > That crap just gets in the way and
                            > causes more codependency. Any
                            > growth or realization leading to
                            > an expanded awareness is learned
                            > and earned by the individual. It's
                            > their own personal and private
                            > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                            > whatever one wants to call this
                            > divine essence, or not, that leads
                            > to a divine knowingness and to
                            > contentment!
                            >
                            > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings
                            came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several
                            high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply
                            accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that
                            the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed
                            relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can
                            use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings
                            being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which
                            ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth
                            wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as
                            needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this
                            concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be
                            knowingly condoned."
                            >
                            > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                            > while knowing about the deceptions
                            > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                            > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                            > why throw the baby out with the
                            > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                            > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                            > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                            > works why complain? H.I.s have
                            > put blinders on in order to stay
                            > the course and maintain their
                            > prestigious positions which took
                            > them decades of time and money
                            > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                            > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                            > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                            > that did the same... picked and
                            > chose what they wanted to follow
                            > and believe. However, that's not
                            > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                            > work. One is supposed to take
                            > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                            > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                            > only the best from all of the other
                            > religions and experts, etc. in order
                            > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                            > dogma to the modern Western
                            > world. Thus, how can one pick
                            > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                            > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                            > following the guidance and the will
                            > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                            > they are heretics!
                            >
                            > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other
                            than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as
                            greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still
                            wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that
                            eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel
                            for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just
                            remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                            >
                            > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                            > Humans are social animals
                            > and most like to follow in
                            > one way or another because
                            > it's easier to follow than to
                            > lead. Being a follower requires
                            > less thought and energy. It's
                            > less demanding, less consuming,
                            > and is less stressful. It is true
                            > that the Higher one is with
                            > initiations, years, and titles
                            > the more lost that individual
                            > is. They've bought into it
                            > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                            > Klemp! However, the ones
                            > to really feel sorry for are those
                            > ESC staffers who know it's all
                            > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                            > but they have to put on an act
                            > in order to keep their jobs,
                            > health care, retirement, etc.
                            >
                            >
                            > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar
                            with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be
                            appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are
                            these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an
                            eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                            >
                            > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                            > friend of Klemp's who's an
                            > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                            > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                            > out there that have overlooked
                            > many facts and are based upon
                            > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                            > however, is that Doug's stated
                            > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                            > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                            > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                            > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                            > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                            > After all, PT needed to have
                            > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                            > his real master, initiate him.
                            > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                            > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                            > has admitted that Twitchell
                            > created the Mahanta title in
                            > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                            > omits all of this information
                            > in his books!
                            >
                            > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a
                            private person, I felt a need to write it.
                            >
                            > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                            >
                            > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful
                            spiritual experiences."
                            >
                            > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                            > It was interesting for me to
                            > comment.
                            >
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > This is an entertaining approach.
                            >
                            >
                            http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                            >
                            > Prometheus
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