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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)

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  • Janice Pfeiffer
    Prometheus,   Now that is very interesting.     I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out.  I believe it
    Message 1 of 14 , May 2, 2012
      Prometheus,
       
      Now that is very interesting. 
       
       I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out.  I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy.  My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and  I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later.  I know it started with a P.  Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness.  This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake.  The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp.  It was a strong  male voice.  A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed.  In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back.  It did.  Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist.  The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so.  While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character.  He seemed the most spiritual at the time.  I found it very confusing to have these dreams.   I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate.   I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa.  I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist.  I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings.   
       
      And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down.  I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist.  It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person.  I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings.  It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly.  I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions.  Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist.    
       
       I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons.  I am not sure demons are real and separate entities.  I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if  I  read what they have to say, I  dismiss a lot of it.  If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist.   This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar. 
       
       I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good.  I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups.  I really don't s
       see anything really outstanding about klemp at all.  That was my biggest problem with eckankar.  When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man.  He even looked miserable.  I saw no power.  He wasn't charismatic.  He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see.  He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical.  As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar. 
       
       It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual.  I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print. 
       
       I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things.  Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated.  I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me.  They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence.  I wasn't doing that.  I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar.  Well, not that I know of anyway.  Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest.  I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member.  Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used.
       
      Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy.  I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems.  Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot.   Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist.  But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world?    If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being?  Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public?  Not in my opinion anyway.  Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary ordeal?  Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience? 
       
      I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings.  Some appeared to be well adjusted people.  Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving.  Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar. 
       
       I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time.  One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest.  I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep.  Also,  if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed.   Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person.  Lies should not be knowingly condoned.
       
        I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else.  They are under the eckankar spell.  I still wouldn't want contact with them though.  I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them.  It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them.  So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart. 
       
      Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with.  I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated.  Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh?  Are these really old names in eckankar history?    Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article.  The other two appear to be writers. 
       
      Telling my experience wasn't easy for me.  Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it. 
       
      Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus. 
       
      May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences.
       


      --- On Thu, 5/3/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 12:29 AM

    • prometheus_973
      Hello Janice and All, Interesting. I think I ll share some comments to your insights below. Janice Pfeiffer wrote: Prometheus, Now that is very interesting.
      Message 2 of 14 , May 3, 2012
        Hello Janice and All,
        Interesting. I think I'll
        share some comments
        to your insights below.


        Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
        "Prometheus,

        Now that is very interesting.

        I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.

        Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.

        Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.

        I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."


        ME (Prometheus): I know that
        many of us have had similar
        experiences of being attacked
        by negative entities and having
        to defend ourselves. In this case
        your RESA was, also, one of these
        negative beings. Too bad you
        couldn't protect yourself from
        them, but it's deceptive when
        one has placed trust in a RESA
        by assuming they are always
        positive and always on your side.
        They are as closed minded and
        defensive as is any religionist
        when protecting their dogma
        from too much scrutiny.


        "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."


        ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
        Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
        ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
        until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
        the catch is that there's a time limit for
        being skeptical. True, when one seeks
        the "Truth" via introspection and uses
        meditation/contemplation one will change
        and see with new eyes, but that's not due
        to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
        tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
        dream and imagine all sorts of things
        when attention is placed upon these
        areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
        and every other conman knew and uses
        and what Klemp continues to use as
        a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
        the magician uses while the viewer's
        attention is distracted elsewhere.


        "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."


        ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
        are real. It could very well be that demons
        are metaphors for those things that bother
        and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
        and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
        all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
        This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
        have problems since they tend to pick and
        choose what is easy for them to believe
        since they tend to be more simple-minded
        and tend to see most everything in literal,
        narrow, terms.


        "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
        see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."


        ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
        He had the by-laws changed
        after he took over from D.G.
        and neither the President nor
        the EK Board has any voting
        authority. Only Klemp can hire
        and fire. The local Satsang
        Societies and local Boards have
        been set up the same (As Above).
        Thus, the RESAs can hire and
        fire the local Presidents and
        Board members and the votes
        of Board members carry no
        authority! The RESA has the
        sole authority, unless, a higher
        authority at the ESC steps in.
        However, when this is done
        it is always with the approval
        of Klemp and under his direction.


        "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."


        ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
        ECK Master" was the best book written
        depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
        There were three interviews done around
        June 1971 while PT was the full blown
        self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
        is that after all of these years he's still
        lying about his past. Klemp has stated
        on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
        and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
        Who's Who and had never traveled all that
        far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
        1971 interview), is saying he was almost
        16 years old when he, first, went from
        Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
        Sudar Singh. There are more examples
        that are even more outlandish. Paul's
        comments about how he confused things
        and screwed up paperwork so that he
        could take it easy during the start of
        WWII showed a level of subversion and
        sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
        accomplish!




        "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."


        ME: I think that we all have to get
        over the guilt and shame of being
        tricked. Look at all of those who
        belong to a religion and donate
        time and money in order to get
        their "feel good" fix. Religions
        are types of opiates... Eckankar
        too! People need to believe in
        something that can give them
        hope and to help them to maintain
        a positive outlook. And, conmen
        know what people want and need.
        Attitude is, also, important but
        there's a fine line between being
        positive and being delusional.
        Sometimes it's difficult to know
        where to draw the line and some
        of us have more difficulty with
        seeing the good versus seeing
        the bad. However, I don't think
        that seeing the glass half-empty
        is always wrong, but it does present
        more of a challenge to overcome.

        "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"


        ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
        ever needed to jump off a bridge
        and do a strip tease at an airport
        and choose jail or a mental institution
        in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
        was a liar up to the moment of his
        untimely death and, thus, was not
        a "spiritual being." It was all about
        him. Besides, many people have
        done stupid things when confused
        with life and have sought "spiritual
        solutions." If one chose to, one could
        claim that their mental missteps
        and episodes were "spiritual
        experiences" as Klemp has done.
        Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
        hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
        excuse his mental confusion.
        After all, HK's the leader of a
        church and has to be above
        and beyond reproach. It's a
        pretend game where he has
        to, partially, buy into the hype
        in order to seem authentic.


        "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."


        ME: I, too, know and remember some
        H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
        as long as they don't know who I am.
        That could/would change I'm sure.
        They would feel betrayed and insulted
        and I could understand that, however,
        that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
        To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
        not due to Eckankar or because of
        inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
        That crap just gets in the way and
        causes more codependency. Any
        growth or realization leading to
        an expanded awareness is learned
        and earned by the individual. It's
        their own personal and private
        relationship to the Holy Spirit or
        whatever one wants to call this
        divine essence, or not, that leads
        to a divine knowingness and to
        contentment!



        "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."


        ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
        while knowing about the deceptions
        and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
        if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
        why throw the baby out with the
        (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
        nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
        of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
        works why complain? H.I.s have
        put blinders on in order to stay
        the course and maintain their
        prestigious positions which took
        them decades of time and money
        to obtain. Many have rejected, in
        part, HK's RESA structure and the
        ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
        that did the same... picked and
        chose what they wanted to follow
        and believe. However, that's not
        the way Eckankar is supposed to
        work. One is supposed to take
        the bait and swallow it hook, line,
        and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
        only the best from all of the other
        religions and experts, etc. in order
        to create (or bring forth) the EK
        dogma to the modern Western
        world. Thus, how can one pick
        and chose when it's all, supposedly,
        relevant? If a person is not consciously
        following the guidance and the will
        of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
        they are heretics!



        "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."


        ME: True! It's nice to belong.
        Humans are social animals
        and most like to follow in
        one way or another because
        it's easier to follow than to
        lead. Being a follower requires
        less thought and energy. It's
        less demanding, less consuming,
        and is less stressful. It is true
        that the Higher one is with
        initiations, years, and titles
        the more lost that individual
        is. They've bought into it
        to the extreme. Look at Marge
        Klemp! However, the ones
        to really feel sorry for are those
        ESC staffers who know it's all
        a sham and Klemp is a poser,
        but they have to put on an act
        in order to keep their jobs,
        health care, retirement, etc.


        "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."


        ME: Doug Marman is an old
        friend of Klemp's who's an
        apologist for Eckankar. I think
        he's a 7th. He's got some books
        out there that have overlooked
        many facts and are based upon
        lies and hearsay. What's funny,
        however, is that Doug's stated
        that Twitchell lied about traveling
        to Paris, France to visit his sister
        when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
        And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
        was probably made up by Twitchell.
        After all, PT needed to have
        someone other than Kirpal Singh,
        his real master, initiate him.
        Thus, PT created RT in order to
        initiate himself. Plus, Marman
        has admitted that Twitchell
        created the Mahanta title in
        January 1969. Yet, Marman
        omits all of this information
        in his books!

        "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.

        Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.

        May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."

        ME: Thanks for sharing this.
        It was interesting for me to
        comment.



        prometheus wrote:


        This is an entertaining approach.

        http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

        Prometheus
      • Janice Pfeiffer
        Prometheus,   You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for
        Message 3 of 14 , May 3, 2012
          Prometheus,
           
          You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
           
          Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
           
          Thanks



          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM

           
          Hello Janice and All,
          Interesting. I think I'll
          share some comments
          to your insights below.

          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          "Prometheus,

          Now that is very interesting.

          I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.

          Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.

          Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.

          I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."

          ME (Prometheus): I know that
          many of us have had similar
          experiences of being attacked
          by negative entities and having
          to defend ourselves. In this case
          your RESA was, also, one of these
          negative beings. Too bad you
          couldn't protect yourself from
          them, but it's deceptive when
          one has placed trust in a RESA
          by assuming they are always
          positive and always on your side.
          They are as closed minded and
          defensive as is any religionist
          when protecting their dogma
          from too much scrutiny.

          "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."

          ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
          Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
          ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
          until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
          the catch is that there's a time limit for
          being skeptical. True, when one seeks
          the "Truth" via introspection and uses
          meditation/contemplation one will change
          and see with new eyes, but that's not due
          to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
          tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
          dream and imagine all sorts of things
          when attention is placed upon these
          areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
          and every other conman knew and uses
          and what Klemp continues to use as
          a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
          the magician uses while the viewer's
          attention is distracted elsewhere.


          "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."

          ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
          are real. It could very well be that demons
          are metaphors for those things that bother
          and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
          and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
          all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
          This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
          have problems since they tend to pick and
          choose what is easy for them to believe
          since they tend to be more simple-minded
          and tend to see most everything in literal,
          narrow, terms.


          "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
          see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."

          ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
          He had the by-laws changed
          after he took over from D.G.
          and neither the President nor
          the EK Board has any voting
          authority. Only Klemp can hire
          and fire. The local Satsang
          Societies and local Boards have
          been set up the same (As Above).
          Thus, the RESAs can hire and
          fire the local Presidents and
          Board members and the votes
          of Board members carry no
          authority! The RESA has the
          sole authority, unless, a higher
          authority at the ESC steps in.
          However, when this is done
          it is always with the approval
          of Klemp and under his direction.


          "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."

          ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
          ECK Master" was the best book written
          depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
          There were three interviews done around
          June 1971 while PT was the full blown
          self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
          is that after all of these years he's still
          lying about his past. Klemp has stated
          on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
          and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
          Who's Who and had never traveled all that
          far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
          1971 interview), is saying he was almost
          16 years old when he, first, went from
          Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
          Sudar Singh. There are more examples
          that are even more outlandish. Paul's
          comments about how he confused things
          and screwed up paperwork so that he
          could take it easy during the start of
          WWII showed a level of subversion and
          sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
          accomplish!

          "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."

          ME: I think that we all have to get
          over the guilt and shame of being
          tricked. Look at all of those who
          belong to a religion and donate
          time and money in order to get
          their "feel good" fix. Religions
          are types of opiates... Eckankar
          too! People need to believe in
          something that can give them
          hope and to help them to maintain
          a positive outlook. And, conmen
          know what people want and need.
          Attitude is, also, important but
          there's a fine line between being
          positive and being delusional.
          Sometimes it's difficult to know
          where to draw the line and some
          of us have more difficulty with
          seeing the good versus seeing
          the bad. However, I don't think
          that seeing the glass half-empty
          is always wrong, but it does present
          more of a challenge to overcome.

          "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"

          ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
          ever needed to jump off a bridge
          and do a strip tease at an airport
          and choose jail or a mental institution
          in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
          was a liar up to the moment of his
          untimely death and, thus, was not
          a "spiritual being." It was all about
          him. Besides, many people have
          done stupid things when confused
          with life and have sought "spiritual
          solutions." If one chose to, one could
          claim that their mental missteps
          and episodes were "spiritual
          experiences" as Klemp has done.
          Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
          hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
          excuse his mental confusion.
          After all, HK's the leader of a
          church and has to be above
          and beyond reproach. It's a
          pretend game where he has
          to, partially, buy into the hype
          in order to seem authentic.

          "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."

          ME: I, too, know and remember some
          H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
          as long as they don't know who I am.
          That could/would change I'm sure.
          They would feel betrayed and insulted
          and I could understand that, however,
          that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
          To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
          not due to Eckankar or because of
          inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
          That crap just gets in the way and
          causes more codependency. Any
          growth or realization leading to
          an expanded awareness is learned
          and earned by the individual. It's
          their own personal and private
          relationship to the Holy Spirit or
          whatever one wants to call this
          divine essence, or not, that leads
          to a divine knowingness and to
          contentment!

          "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."

          ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
          while knowing about the deceptions
          and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
          if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
          why throw the baby out with the
          (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
          nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
          of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
          works why complain? H.I.s have
          put blinders on in order to stay
          the course and maintain their
          prestigious positions which took
          them decades of time and money
          to obtain. Many have rejected, in
          part, HK's RESA structure and the
          ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
          that did the same... picked and
          chose what they wanted to follow
          and believe. However, that's not
          the way Eckankar is supposed to
          work. One is supposed to take
          the bait and swallow it hook, line,
          and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
          only the best from all of the other
          religions and experts, etc. in order
          to create (or bring forth) the EK
          dogma to the modern Western
          world. Thus, how can one pick
          and chose when it's all, supposedly,
          relevant? If a person is not consciously
          following the guidance and the will
          of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
          they are heretics!

          "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."

          ME: True! It's nice to belong.
          Humans are social animals
          and most like to follow in
          one way or another because
          it's easier to follow than to
          lead. Being a follower requires
          less thought and energy. It's
          less demanding, less consuming,
          and is less stressful. It is true
          that the Higher one is with
          initiations, years, and titles
          the more lost that individual
          is. They've bought into it
          to the extreme. Look at Marge
          Klemp! However, the ones
          to really feel sorry for are those
          ESC staffers who know it's all
          a sham and Klemp is a poser,
          but they have to put on an act
          in order to keep their jobs,
          health care, retirement, etc.


          "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."

          ME: Doug Marman is an old
          friend of Klemp's who's an
          apologist for Eckankar. I think
          he's a 7th. He's got some books
          out there that have overlooked
          many facts and are based upon
          lies and hearsay. What's funny,
          however, is that Doug's stated
          that Twitchell lied about traveling
          to Paris, France to visit his sister
          when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
          And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
          was probably made up by Twitchell.
          After all, PT needed to have
          someone other than Kirpal Singh,
          his real master, initiate him.
          Thus, PT created RT in order to
          initiate himself. Plus, Marman
          has admitted that Twitchell
          created the Mahanta title in
          January 1969. Yet, Marman
          omits all of this information
          in his books!

          "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.

          Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.

          May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."

          ME: Thanks for sharing this.
          It was interesting for me to
          comment.


          prometheus wrote:

          This is an entertaining approach.

          http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

          Prometheus

        • prometheus_973
          Hello Janice, Actually Marman kind of side-steps the Rebazar issue with some double talk. He agrees that there is no proof or records of Rebazar s existence,
          Message 4 of 14 , May 3, 2012
            Hello Janice,
            Actually Marman kind of
            side-steps the Rebazar
            issue with some double
            talk. He agrees that there
            is no proof or records
            of Rebazar's existence,
            but states that it can't
            be proven that Rebazar
            doesn't exist. How can
            anyone disprove a negative?

            Well, via a timeline! PT
            mentions in "Difficulties"
            of meeting Rebazar (pgs.
            70-71) in 1947 where he
            went up to the 7th initiation
            and then met with him
            again on a third visit
            to India around 1951
            where PT "got the finish
            of my initiations." Except,
            PT never knew of the term
            or rank of Mahanta until
            Jan. 1969... which Marman
            verifies and admits that
            this was when Paul created
            the Mahanta. That's rather
            strange isn't it since there's
            supposed to be an "Ancient
            Lineage of Mahantas."

            [On pg. 48 PT mentions that
            his first visit to India was in
            1924 when he was 15 (born
            1908)].

            Plus, let's not forget than
            Marman points out that
            Twitchell went to visit his
            sister in Paris, Kentucky
            and not Paris, France! Yes,
            Marman admits that Twit
            lied! So, how could Paul have
            met Sudar in Paris, France
            and then traveled to India
            with him where he received
            his 1st and 2nd initiations
            and then turned over, by
            Sudar, to Rebazar? It never
            happened!

            Apparently, Marman has
            trouble connecting the dots!

            Thus, how can there be
            an Ancient Lineage when
            the Mahanta was created
            in 1969? This, also, means
            that Rebazar was not a
            Mahanta nor were any so-
            called ECK (Spiritual) Masters
            prior to Rebazar. Actually,
            it points out that Twitchell
            never met Rebazar because
            he doesn't exist.

            Also, Marman states that
            the belief in saints, saviors,
            and spiritual masters is an
            intrinsic memory that Soul
            has remembered from past
            lifetimes... thus it must be
            true! These were never conmen,
            fakes, or snake oil salesmen
            and everyone knows that
            the Catholic Church and Sant
            Mat never exaggerated the
            PR of their saints!

            BTW- The following TS
            response can be found in
            the FILES section listed on
            the left under HOME,
            MESSAGES, and above
            LINKS.

            Doug Marman
            02/08/2004

            [FROM FORD JOHNSON'S (old) "THE TRUTH SEEKER" site]:

            A Few Responses:

            To Nacal [Prometheus]:

            [MARMAN ON REBAZAR]
            You went on:
            "Let's now go back up to the
            preceding paragraph since
            you seem to claim to like
            "facts" (why don't you give
            your sources?).

            "But it is a fact that his Master
            Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan
            lama, who appears to be in his
            early forties, was a young man
            when Columbus discovered America."
            Now, was that really a "fact," or
            a delusional belief, or a deliberate
            lie? Or, is it that, "There is a need
            of the people to believe in the magic
            of a saviour, and Sri Paul Twitchell
            knows this and acts out the part"
            (same article)."

            Marman: "It certainly is no fact,
            since there are no records nor
            anything else to prove that Rebazar
            Tarzs even exists, never mind
            how old he really is.

            However, there is no proof that
            it is a lie, either.

            It certainly sounds far-fetched.
            But I don't think the belief in
            saints, saviors and spiritual
            teachers comes from the desire
            to believe in magic. I think it
            comes from the innate memory
            within Soul that there is a truth
            and meaning to life that most
            of the world seems to have forgotten,
            but some remember."

            I don't think Eckankar is doing
            all that well. It's a limited audience
            with limited resources. Fortunately,
            Klemp is the main reason that
            Eckankar hasn't grown larger.

            Prometheus


            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            >
            > Prometheus,
            >  
            > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
            >  
            > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why? 

            The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
            >  
            > Thanks
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > From: prometheus
            >
            >
            > Hello Janice and All,
            > Interesting. I think I'll
            > share some comments
            > to your insights below.
            >
            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            > "Prometheus,
            >
            > Now that is very interesting.
            >
            > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
            >
            > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
            >
            > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
            >
            > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
            >
            > ME (Prometheus): I know that
            > many of us have had similar
            > experiences of being attacked
            > by negative entities and having
            > to defend ourselves. In this case
            > your RESA was, also, one of these
            > negative beings. Too bad you
            > couldn't protect yourself from
            > them, but it's deceptive when
            > one has placed trust in a RESA
            > by assuming they are always
            > positive and always on your side.
            > They are as closed minded and
            > defensive as is any religionist
            > when protecting their dogma
            > from too much scrutiny.
            >
            > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
            >
            > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
            > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
            > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
            > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
            > the catch is that there's a time limit for
            > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
            > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
            > meditation/contemplation one will change
            > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
            > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
            > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
            > dream and imagine all sorts of things
            > when attention is placed upon these
            > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
            > and every other conman knew and uses
            > and what Klemp continues to use as
            > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
            > the magician uses while the viewer's
            > attention is distracted elsewhere.
            >
            >
            > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
            >
            > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
            > are real. It could very well be that demons
            > are metaphors for those things that bother
            > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
            > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
            > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
            > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
            > have problems since they tend to pick and
            > choose what is easy for them to believe
            > since they tend to be more simple-minded
            > and tend to see most everything in literal,
            > narrow, terms.
            >
            >
            > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
            > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
            >
            > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
            > He had the by-laws changed
            > after he took over from D.G.
            > and neither the President nor
            > the EK Board has any voting
            > authority. Only Klemp can hire
            > and fire. The local Satsang
            > Societies and local Boards have
            > been set up the same (As Above).
            > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
            > fire the local Presidents and
            > Board members and the votes
            > of Board members carry no
            > authority! The RESA has the
            > sole authority, unless, a higher
            > authority at the ESC steps in.
            > However, when this is done
            > it is always with the approval
            > of Klemp and under his direction.
            >
            >
            > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
            >
            > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
            > ECK Master" was the best book written
            > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
            > There were three interviews done around
            > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
            > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
            > is that after all of these years he's still
            > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
            > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
            > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
            > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
            > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
            > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
            > 16 years old when he, first, went from
            > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
            > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
            > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
            > comments about how he confused things
            > and screwed up paperwork so that he
            > could take it easy during the start of
            > WWII showed a level of subversion and
            > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
            > accomplish!
            >
            > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
            >
            > ME: I think that we all have to get
            > over the guilt and shame of being
            > tricked. Look at all of those who
            > belong to a religion and donate
            > time and money in order to get
            > their "feel good" fix. Religions
            > are types of opiates... Eckankar
            > too! People need to believe in
            > something that can give them
            > hope and to help them to maintain
            > a positive outlook. And, conmen
            > know what people want and need.
            > Attitude is, also, important but
            > there's a fine line between being
            > positive and being delusional.
            > Sometimes it's difficult to know
            > where to draw the line and some
            > of us have more difficulty with
            > seeing the good versus seeing
            > the bad. However, I don't think
            > that seeing the glass half-empty
            > is always wrong, but it does present
            > more of a challenge to overcome.
            >
            > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
            > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
            >
            > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
            > ever needed to jump off a bridge
            > and do a strip tease at an airport
            > and choose jail or a mental institution
            > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
            > was a liar up to the moment of his
            > untimely death and, thus, was not
            > a "spiritual being." It was all about
            > him. Besides, many people have
            > done stupid things when confused
            > with life and have sought "spiritual
            > solutions." If one chose to, one could
            > claim that their mental missteps
            > and episodes were "spiritual
            > experiences" as Klemp has done.
            > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
            > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
            > excuse his mental confusion.
            > After all, HK's the leader of a
            > church and has to be above
            > and beyond reproach. It's a
            > pretend game where he has
            > to, partially, buy into the hype
            > in order to seem authentic.
            >
            > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
            >
            > ME: I, too, know and remember some
            > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
            > as long as they don't know who I am.
            > That could/would change I'm sure.
            > They would feel betrayed and insulted
            > and I could understand that, however,
            > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
            > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
            > not due to Eckankar or because of
            > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
            > That crap just gets in the way and
            > causes more codependency. Any
            > growth or realization leading to
            > an expanded awareness is learned
            > and earned by the individual. It's
            > their own personal and private
            > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
            > whatever one wants to call this
            > divine essence, or not, that leads
            > to a divine knowingness and to
            > contentment!
            >
            > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
            >
            > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
            > while knowing about the deceptions
            > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
            > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
            > why throw the baby out with the
            > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
            > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
            > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
            > works why complain? H.I.s have
            > put blinders on in order to stay
            > the course and maintain their
            > prestigious positions which took
            > them decades of time and money
            > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
            > part, HK's RESA structure and the
            > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
            > that did the same... picked and
            > chose what they wanted to follow
            > and believe. However, that's not
            > the way Eckankar is supposed to
            > work. One is supposed to take
            > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
            > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
            > only the best from all of the other
            > religions and experts, etc. in order
            > to create (or bring forth) the EK
            > dogma to the modern Western
            > world. Thus, how can one pick
            > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
            > relevant? If a person is not consciously
            > following the guidance and the will
            > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
            > they are heretics!
            >
            > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
            >
            > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
            > Humans are social animals
            > and most like to follow in
            > one way or another because
            > it's easier to follow than to
            > lead. Being a follower requires
            > less thought and energy. It's
            > less demanding, less consuming,
            > and is less stressful. It is true
            > that the Higher one is with
            > initiations, years, and titles
            > the more lost that individual
            > is. They've bought into it
            > to the extreme. Look at Marge
            > Klemp! However, the ones
            > to really feel sorry for are those
            > ESC staffers who know it's all
            > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
            > but they have to put on an act
            > in order to keep their jobs,
            > health care, retirement, etc.
            >
            >
            > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
            >
            > ME: Doug Marman is an old
            > friend of Klemp's who's an
            > apologist for Eckankar. I think
            > he's a 7th. He's got some books
            > out there that have overlooked
            > many facts and are based upon
            > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
            > however, is that Doug's stated
            > that Twitchell lied about traveling
            > to Paris, France to visit his sister
            > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
            > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
            > was probably made up by Twitchell.
            > After all, PT needed to have
            > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
            > his real master, initiate him.
            > Thus, PT created RT in order to
            > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
            > has admitted that Twitchell
            > created the Mahanta title in
            > January 1969. Yet, Marman
            > omits all of this information
            > in his books!
            >
            > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
            >
            > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
            >
            > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
            >
            > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
            > It was interesting for me to
            > comment.
            >
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            >
            > This is an entertaining approach.
            >
            > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
          • etznab@aol.com
            I have the information recorded someplace about Marman s Rebazar Tarzs comments. I believe it s on a.r.e. someplace. Give me some time to find it ... if you
            Message 5 of 14 , May 5, 2012
              I have the information recorded someplace about Marman's Rebazar Tarzs
              comments. I believe it's on a.r.e. someplace. Give me some time to find
              it ... if you don't find it sooner.


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thu, May 3, 2012 4:28 pm
              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
              (Revisited)







              Prometheus,
               
              You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me
              peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for
              being such a wise soul.
               
              Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted
              that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The
              circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced
              eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an
              organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more
              people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org
              is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by
              counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
               
              Thanks




              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
              (Revisited)
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM


               
              Hello Janice and All,
              Interesting. I think I'll
              share some comments
              to your insights below.

              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              "Prometheus,

              Now that is very interesting.

              I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so
              before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling
              in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My
              experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I
              heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know
              it started with a P.

              Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and
              then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I
              was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It
              was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly
              looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at
              me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I
              told it to get out now and never come back. It did.

              Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as
              being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams
              were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my
              favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found
              it very confusing to have these dreams.

              I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term
              relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that
              got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings
              since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true
              beauty in the teachings."

              ME (Prometheus): I know that
              many of us have had similar
              experiences of being attacked
              by negative entities and having
              to defend ourselves. In this case
              your RESA was, also, one of these
              negative beings. Too bad you
              couldn't protect yourself from
              them, but it's deceptive when
              one has placed trust in a RESA
              by assuming they are always
              positive and always on your side.
              They are as closed minded and
              defensive as is any religionist
              when protecting their dogma
              from too much scrutiny.

              "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it
              attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading
              all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another
              year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack
              seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of
              eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive
              thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I
              wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to
              them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many
              occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be
              respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories
              about the personal lives of other eckist."

              ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
              Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
              ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
              until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
              the catch is that there's a time limit for
              being skeptical. True, when one seeks
              the "Truth" via introspection and uses
              meditation/contemplation one will change
              and see with new eyes, but that's not due
              to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
              tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
              dream and imagine all sorts of things
              when attention is placed upon these
              areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
              and every other conman knew and uses
              and what Klemp continues to use as
              a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
              the magician uses while the viewer's
              attention is distracted elsewhere.


              "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind
              eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with
              demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have
              always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or
              demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say,
              I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't
              have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious
              hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature
              of eckankar."

              ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
              are real. It could very well be that demons
              are metaphors for those things that bother
              and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
              and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
              all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
              This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
              have problems since they tend to pick and
              choose what is easy for them to believe
              since they tend to be more simple-minded
              and tend to see most everything in literal,
              narrow, terms.


              "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and
              he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for
              the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
              see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest
              problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing
              using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even
              looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very
              intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like
              twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for
              spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As
              long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was
              easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate
              eckankar."

              ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
              He had the by-laws changed
              after he took over from D.G.
              and neither the President nor
              the EK Board has any voting
              authority. Only Klemp can hire
              and fire. The local Satsang
              Societies and local Boards have
              been set up the same (As Above).
              Thus, the RESAs can hire and
              fire the local Presidents and
              Board members and the votes
              of Board members carry no
              authority! The RESA has the
              sole authority, unless, a higher
              authority at the ESC steps in.
              However, when this is done
              it is always with the approval
              of Klemp and under his direction.


              "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by
              twitchell and others that the average person would think is not
              spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great
              power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been
              removed from print."

              ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
              ECK Master" was the best book written
              depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
              There were three interviews done around
              June 1971 while PT was the full blown
              self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
              is that after all of these years he's still
              lying about his past. Klemp has stated
              on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
              and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
              Who's Who and had never traveled all that
              far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
              1971 interview), is saying he was almost
              16 years old when he, first, went from
              Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
              Sudar Singh. There are more examples
              that are even more outlandish. Paul's
              comments about how he confused things
              and screwed up paperwork so that he
              could take it easy during the start of
              WWII showed a level of subversion and
              sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
              accomplish!

              "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so
              confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit
              nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable
              eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it
              was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of
              eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more
              money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that
              although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a
              single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I
              wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of
              myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people
              feel dumb, gullible and used."

              ME: I think that we all have to get
              over the guilt and shame of being
              tricked. Look at all of those who
              belong to a religion and donate
              time and money in order to get
              their "feel good" fix. Religions
              are types of opiates... Eckankar
              too! People need to believe in
              something that can give them
              hope and to help them to maintain
              a positive outlook. And, conmen
              know what people want and need.
              Attitude is, also, important but
              there's a fine line between being
              positive and being delusional.
              Sometimes it's difficult to know
              where to draw the line and some
              of us have more difficulty with
              seeing the good versus seeing
              the bad. However, I don't think
              that seeing the glass half-empty
              is always wrong, but it does present
              more of a challenge to overcome.

              "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I
              am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of
              them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I
              was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental
              conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this
              great living eck master help them over come these things or at least
              help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master
              had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is
              necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp
              describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with
              a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in
              public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed
              the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was
              woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary ordeal? Did he
              go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes
              and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"

              ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
              ever needed to jump off a bridge
              and do a strip tease at an airport
              and choose jail or a mental institution
              in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
              was a liar up to the moment of his
              untimely death and, thus, was not
              a "spiritual being." It was all about
              him. Besides, many people have
              done stupid things when confused
              with life and have sought "spiritual
              solutions." If one chose to, one could
              claim that their mental missteps
              and episodes were "spiritual
              experiences" as Klemp has done.
              Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
              hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
              excuse his mental confusion.
              After all, HK's the leader of a
              church and has to be above
              and beyond reproach. It's a
              pretend game where he has
              to, partially, buy into the hype
              in order to seem authentic.

              "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who
              appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well
              adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this
              article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is
              possible to grow in eckankar."

              ME: I, too, know and remember some
              H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
              as long as they don't know who I am.
              That could/would change I'm sure.
              They would feel betrayed and insulted
              and I could understand that, however,
              that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
              To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
              not due to Eckankar or because of
              inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
              That crap just gets in the way and
              causes more codependency. Any
              growth or realization leading to
              an expanded awareness is learned
              and earned by the individual. It's
              their own personal and private
              relationship to the Holy Spirit or
              whatever one wants to call this
              divine essence, or not, that leads
              to a divine knowingness and to
              contentment!

              "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came
              from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high
              initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply
              accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that
              the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed
              relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can
              use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings
              being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which
              ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth
              wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as
              needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this
              concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be
              knowingly condoned."

              ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
              while knowing about the deceptions
              and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
              if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
              why throw the baby out with the
              (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
              nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
              of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
              works why complain? H.I.s have
              put blinders on in order to stay
              the course and maintain their
              prestigious positions which took
              them decades of time and money
              to obtain. Many have rejected, in
              part, HK's RESA structure and the
              ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
              that did the same... picked and
              chose what they wanted to follow
              and believe. However, that's not
              the way Eckankar is supposed to
              work. One is supposed to take
              the bait and swallow it hook, line,
              and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
              only the best from all of the other
              religions and experts, etc. in order
              to create (or bring forth) the EK
              dogma to the modern Western
              world. Thus, how can one pick
              and chose when it's all, supposedly,
              relevant? If a person is not consciously
              following the guidance and the will
              of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
              they are heretics!

              "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than
              eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as
              greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still
              wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that
              eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel
              for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just
              remember the good and bless them in my heart."

              ME: True! It's nice to belong.
              Humans are social animals
              and most like to follow in
              one way or another because
              it's easier to follow than to
              lead. Being a follower requires
              less thought and energy. It's
              less demanding, less consuming,
              and is less stressful. It is true
              that the Higher one is with
              initiations, years, and titles
              the more lost that individual
              is. They've bought into it
              to the extreme. Look at Marge
              Klemp! However, the ones
              to really feel sorry for are those
              ESC staffers who know it's all
              a sham and Klemp is a poser,
              but they have to put on an act
              in order to keep their jobs,
              health care, retirement, etc.


              "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I
              will look them up but any info any of you can share would be
              appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are
              these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an
              eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."

              ME: Doug Marman is an old
              friend of Klemp's who's an
              apologist for Eckankar. I think
              he's a 7th. He's got some books
              out there that have overlooked
              many facts and are based upon
              lies and hearsay. What's funny,
              however, is that Doug's stated
              that Twitchell lied about traveling
              to Paris, France to visit his sister
              when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
              And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
              was probably made up by Twitchell.
              After all, PT needed to have
              someone other than Kirpal Singh,
              his real master, initiate him.
              Thus, PT created RT in order to
              initiate himself. Plus, Marman
              has admitted that Twitchell
              created the Mahanta title in
              January 1969. Yet, Marman
              omits all of this information
              in his books!

              "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a
              private person, I felt a need to write it.

              Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.

              May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual
              experiences."

              ME: Thanks for sharing this.
              It was interesting for me to
              comment.


              prometheus wrote:

              This is an entertaining approach.

              http://www.scribd.com
              /doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

              Prometheus
            • postekcon
              Ekult was born in the psychic era of the 1960s, TM (transcendental meditation), visiting Ashrams by pop groups such as The Beatles, and even Paul Twitchell!
              Message 6 of 14 , May 5, 2012
                Ekult was born in the psychic era of the 1960s, TM (transcendental meditation), visiting Ashrams by pop groups such as The Beatles, and even Paul Twitchell!

                World consciousness has since moved on, but ekult is still stuck in its roots. This is why it is unable to recruit from populations today. It is no longer 'current'!

                Ekult's foundation was built upon conjured-up entities, they called them 'masters'. These 'masters' were brought into manifestation and are solely kept in manifestation today by the constant focus of attention of ekult followers. Simply withdraw this attention- nada 'masters' and nada manifestations!

                But more importantly, the mahanta entity (created 1969), is the psychic engine which sucks ekult followers dry of their energies. This is why HK constantly demands: think of me; think of me; think of me all the time! This is one modus operandi of how the energy is transferred, others are via the 'initiation' process and 'surrender'.

                Should an ekult follower withdraw their energy, or leave the movement, to explain in simplistic terms; the mahanta entity is most displeased at its pending demise, and what we might call a psychic attack ensues.

                -Postekcon


                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Prometheus,
                >  
                > Now that is very interesting. 
                >  
                >  I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out.  I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy.  My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and  I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later.  I know it started with a P.  Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness.  This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake.  The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp.  It was a strong  male voice.  A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed.  In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back.  It did.  Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con
                > artist.  The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so.  While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character.  He seemed the most spiritual at the time.  I found it very confusing to have these dreams.   I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate.   I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa.  I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist.  I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings.   
                >  
                > And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down.  I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist.  It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person.  I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings.  It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly.  I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions.  Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist.    
                >  
                >  I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons.  I am not sure demons are real and separate entities.  I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if  I  read what they have to say, I  dismiss a lot of it.  If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist.   This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar. 
                >  
                >  I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good.  I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups.  I really don't s
                >  see anything really outstanding about klemp at all.  That was my biggest problem with eckankar.  When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man.  He even looked miserable.  I saw no power.  He wasn't charismatic.  He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see.  He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical.  As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar. 
                >  
                >  It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual.  I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print. 
                >  
                >  I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things.  Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated.  I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me.  They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence.  I wasn't doing that.  I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar.  Well, not that I know of anyway.  Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest.  I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member.  Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used.
                >  
                > Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy.  I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems.  Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot.   Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist.  But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world?    If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being?  Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public?  Not in my opinion anyway.  Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as
                > kind of a necessary ordeal?  Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience? 
                >  
                > I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings.  Some appeared to be well adjusted people.  Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving.  Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar. 
                >  
                >  I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time.  One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest.  I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep.  Also,  if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed.   Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person.  Lies should not be knowingly condoned.
                >  
                >   I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else.  They are under the eckankar spell.  I still wouldn't want contact with them though.  I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them.  It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them.  So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart. 
                >  
                > Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with.  I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated.  Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh?  Are these really old names in eckankar history?    Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article.  The other two appear to be writers. 
                >  
                > Telling my experience wasn't easy for me.  Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it. 
                >  
                > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus. 
                >  
                > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences.
                >  
                >
                >
                > --- On Thu, 5/3/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 12:29 AM
                >
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                > This is an entertaining approach.
                >
                > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
              • etznab18
                Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? Some select trivia
                Message 7 of 14 , May 5, 2012
                  "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                  Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

                  To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

                  (1)

                  Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                  [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

                  The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                  So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                  It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

                  http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                  (2)

                  July 2001:

                  "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

                  Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                  http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                  (3)

                  July 2003:

                  Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                  What are your on that stuff ?
                  I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                  As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
                  It's all a matter of perspective.
                  I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
                  On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                  http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                  (4) February 2004:

                  "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                  http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                  (5)

                  March 2007:

                  [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
                  Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                  I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                  So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
                  I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                  These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                  In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                  http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Prometheus,
                  >  
                  > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
                  >  
                  > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
                  >  
                  > Thanks
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello Janice and All,
                  > Interesting. I think I'll
                  > share some comments
                  > to your insights below.
                  >
                  > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                  > "Prometheus,
                  >
                  > Now that is very interesting.
                  >
                  > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                  >
                  > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                  >
                  > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                  >
                  > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                  >
                  > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                  > many of us have had similar
                  > experiences of being attacked
                  > by negative entities and having
                  > to defend ourselves. In this case
                  > your RESA was, also, one of these
                  > negative beings. Too bad you
                  > couldn't protect yourself from
                  > them, but it's deceptive when
                  > one has placed trust in a RESA
                  > by assuming they are always
                  > positive and always on your side.
                  > They are as closed minded and
                  > defensive as is any religionist
                  > when protecting their dogma
                  > from too much scrutiny.
                  >
                  > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
                  >
                  > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                  > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                  > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                  > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                  > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                  > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                  > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                  > meditation/contemplation one will change
                  > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                  > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                  > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                  > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                  > when attention is placed upon these
                  > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                  > and every other conman knew and uses
                  > and what Klemp continues to use as
                  > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                  > the magician uses while the viewer's
                  > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                  >
                  >
                  > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
                  >
                  > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                  > are real. It could very well be that demons
                  > are metaphors for those things that bother
                  > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                  > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                  > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                  > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                  > have problems since they tend to pick and
                  > choose what is easy for them to believe
                  > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                  > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                  > narrow, terms.
                  >
                  >
                  > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                  > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
                  >
                  > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                  > He had the by-laws changed
                  > after he took over from D.G.
                  > and neither the President nor
                  > the EK Board has any voting
                  > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                  > and fire. The local Satsang
                  > Societies and local Boards have
                  > been set up the same (As Above).
                  > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                  > fire the local Presidents and
                  > Board members and the votes
                  > of Board members carry no
                  > authority! The RESA has the
                  > sole authority, unless, a higher
                  > authority at the ESC steps in.
                  > However, when this is done
                  > it is always with the approval
                  > of Klemp and under his direction.
                  >
                  >
                  > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
                  >
                  > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                  > ECK Master" was the best book written
                  > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                  > There were three interviews done around
                  > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                  > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                  > is that after all of these years he's still
                  > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                  > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                  > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                  > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                  > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                  > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                  > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                  > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                  > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                  > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                  > comments about how he confused things
                  > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                  > could take it easy during the start of
                  > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                  > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                  > accomplish!
                  >
                  > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                  >
                  > ME: I think that we all have to get
                  > over the guilt and shame of being
                  > tricked. Look at all of those who
                  > belong to a religion and donate
                  > time and money in order to get
                  > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                  > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                  > too! People need to believe in
                  > something that can give them
                  > hope and to help them to maintain
                  > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                  > know what people want and need.
                  > Attitude is, also, important but
                  > there's a fine line between being
                  > positive and being delusional.
                  > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                  > where to draw the line and some
                  > of us have more difficulty with
                  > seeing the good versus seeing
                  > the bad. However, I don't think
                  > that seeing the glass half-empty
                  > is always wrong, but it does present
                  > more of a challenge to overcome.
                  >
                  > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                  > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                  >
                  > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                  > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                  > and do a strip tease at an airport
                  > and choose jail or a mental institution
                  > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                  > was a liar up to the moment of his
                  > untimely death and, thus, was not
                  > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                  > him. Besides, many people have
                  > done stupid things when confused
                  > with life and have sought "spiritual
                  > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                  > claim that their mental missteps
                  > and episodes were "spiritual
                  > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                  > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                  > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                  > excuse his mental confusion.
                  > After all, HK's the leader of a
                  > church and has to be above
                  > and beyond reproach. It's a
                  > pretend game where he has
                  > to, partially, buy into the hype
                  > in order to seem authentic.
                  >
                  > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
                  >
                  > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                  > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                  > as long as they don't know who I am.
                  > That could/would change I'm sure.
                  > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                  > and I could understand that, however,
                  > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                  > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                  > not due to Eckankar or because of
                  > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                  > That crap just gets in the way and
                  > causes more codependency. Any
                  > growth or realization leading to
                  > an expanded awareness is learned
                  > and earned by the individual. It's
                  > their own personal and private
                  > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                  > whatever one wants to call this
                  > divine essence, or not, that leads
                  > to a divine knowingness and to
                  > contentment!
                  >
                  > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
                  >
                  > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                  > while knowing about the deceptions
                  > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                  > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                  > why throw the baby out with the
                  > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                  > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                  > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                  > works why complain? H.I.s have
                  > put blinders on in order to stay
                  > the course and maintain their
                  > prestigious positions which took
                  > them decades of time and money
                  > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                  > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                  > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                  > that did the same... picked and
                  > chose what they wanted to follow
                  > and believe. However, that's not
                  > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                  > work. One is supposed to take
                  > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                  > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                  > only the best from all of the other
                  > religions and experts, etc. in order
                  > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                  > dogma to the modern Western
                  > world. Thus, how can one pick
                  > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                  > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                  > following the guidance and the will
                  > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                  > they are heretics!
                  >
                  > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                  >
                  > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                  > Humans are social animals
                  > and most like to follow in
                  > one way or another because
                  > it's easier to follow than to
                  > lead. Being a follower requires
                  > less thought and energy. It's
                  > less demanding, less consuming,
                  > and is less stressful. It is true
                  > that the Higher one is with
                  > initiations, years, and titles
                  > the more lost that individual
                  > is. They've bought into it
                  > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                  > Klemp! However, the ones
                  > to really feel sorry for are those
                  > ESC staffers who know it's all
                  > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                  > but they have to put on an act
                  > in order to keep their jobs,
                  > health care, retirement, etc.
                  >
                  >
                  > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                  >
                  > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                  > friend of Klemp's who's an
                  > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                  > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                  > out there that have overlooked
                  > many facts and are based upon
                  > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                  > however, is that Doug's stated
                  > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                  > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                  > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                  > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                  > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                  > After all, PT needed to have
                  > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                  > his real master, initiate him.
                  > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                  > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                  > has admitted that Twitchell
                  > created the Mahanta title in
                  > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                  > omits all of this information
                  > in his books!
                  >
                  > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
                  >
                  > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                  >
                  > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
                  >
                  > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                  > It was interesting for me to
                  > comment.
                  >
                  >
                  > prometheus wrote:
                  >
                  > This is an entertaining approach.
                  >
                  > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                • prometheus_973
                  BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus: A Calm And Peaceful Message For All Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 5, 2012
                    BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus:



                    A Calm And Peaceful Message For All


                    Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is being
                    typed. I have really been for the most part enjoying the dialogue on this message
                    board.

                    I would like to encourage Doug Marman to continue posting here. I think
                    gradually we can all learn something that will help us move toward a greater
                    understanding.

                    We can do this together regardless of religious belief and possibly emerge in
                    a place with no fences. I have many friends from different beliefs and something
                    I have noticed in the last 10 years or so is that our differences don't separate
                    us as much as they used to. There is a coming together of sorts and a move
                    towards higher conciousness.

                    I have seen this come about through heartfelt sharing of ideas.

                    ***A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still an Eckist?

                    I send all who read this my love

                    Freeman


                    Joey Ward
                    02/09/2004
                    Top

                    Thanks Doug



                    Thank you very much for the reply to the 5 questions that I asked of you. Also
                    thanks for looking through Paul Twitchell's writings and finding the same thing that I
                    found out about Paul not using the term MAHANTA until January 1969. It means a lot to me that you answered that question I ask a while back. I join Eckankar because the
                    Mahanta was the highest state of consciousness in this world and in the inner
                    worlds so said Paul Twitchell the 971st MAHANTA (the title he gave himself). I
                    still wonder why Paul would say such a thing. To me this is the biggest lie that
                    any person could say. To make up a line of Mahanta Masters, (highest state of
                    consciousness and God made flesh) what was Paul thinking of. O' well !!! I
                    guess the next time I see Paul in the astral library I will give him a kick in
                    the pants.

                    Thanks Doug,
                    Joey Ward

                    PS..... Doug, next time you see Harold, could you tell him that Joey would like
                    to see Him start posting on The Truth Seeker Bulletin Board. It sure would be grand of
                    Harold to do so. Thanks again for your help.


                    Seeker For The Last Time
                    02/08/2004
                    Top

                    Another X`Eckist Story



                    I joined Eckankar in the early 80's, attracted partly because of their concept
                    of Soul Travel and left in the mid-90's. I had become a 3rd Initiate by that time. Because of
                    my outspoken aggressive remarks and asking too many questions about concealed facts about the organization, many wondered why the LEM had allowed me to reach that level.

                    Initiations and secret words and the idea that we need a Master, mean nothing to
                    me in this life because in my different existences I was connected to many of these
                    concepts. There were times I needed these secret words and initiations and a Master and
                    for those who need them now, it is OK. It is something many have to experience, if not in
                    this lifetime, in a different one.

                    In the mid-80's, I posted a few remarks on ARE. This was a good lesson for me,
                    because some of the die-hard ECKists attempted to attack me with their "sword from the
                    Sugmad" and "weed me out of the garden of ECK." I had no grudge against them because I
                    knew they would learn to open their minds. At the time, they believed in what they
                    did and that it was the right thing for them to do. I accepted it.

                    I hadn't been on ARE for a long time but a few weeks ago I was impelled to go on
                    it and out popped the information concerning Ford Johnson's book. In the past,
                    ECKist would say it was the ECK or LEM. I ordered the book, which I am enjoying now.
                    It brought back some memories of Eckankar.

                    I was very surprised to see some of the die-hard and long-standing
                    ECKists, including High Initiates, especially Nathan. This was a shock and it takes a lot to shock me. I am very happy for Nathan because we had communicated in the past. Nathan would make a very high class lawyer in this life(have no idea what he does). Boy, did he
                    swing that sword for Eckankar. He left nothing standing. But that was then and now is now.
                    I am happy, Nathan that you allowed yourself to open and move beyond the garden of
                    ECK. There is so much more to learn.

                    To some Eckankar is still a beautiful garden and I can respect that. I would like to stress that I have nothing against Eckankar and similar religions. They may be needed
                    for souls to grow.

                    I enjoyed reading the comments on this board..and I'll be back when I have time.

                    I'll sign off with the name I used to use on ARE - Seeker, for the last time.



                    Doug Marman
                    02/08/2004
                    Top

                    A Few Responses



                    I've received a number of comments to my last post.

                    I will respond to some of the questions and comments.

                    To Degar:

                    I agree with you that no church, book or religion can replace the part of us
                    that knows. We also both agree on the importance of fearlessness in seeing
                    truth, and the importance of teachings with heart.

                    My lights are fine, as are yours.


                    To Joey Ward:

                    I don't do yes or no questions, but I will try to keep my answers short:

                    1. Did Paul Twitchell have the highest state of consciousness as the Godman
                    as he told the world through his writings?

                    I don't know how anyone could say who was highest or who is even higher than
                    another. So, I would never say such a thing, myself. I don't even think having the
                    highest state of consciousness should be anyone's goal. A person can gain a high state of
                    consciousness and be unable to make a living here in the physical. That's not very useful.

                    2. Does Harold Klemp have the highest state of consciousness as the Godman
                    as he is telling the world throught his writings?

                    Same as above, however, I will add this. I agree with the Sufis who say that there is what they call The Pole of The World. The Sufi teacher Ibn al' Arabi points out that this same principle applies at every level of human affairs. Another Sufi put it this way: "Just as there is someone who acts as the pole for the whole of humanity, so there are poles for every faith, community, occupation - even down to the level of towns."

                    We sense when we are near such people since they seem to represent and carry the
                    whole of the town or company or faith that they are a part of. Every age has
                    those who carry the whole of things for the world at every level. We connect to that
                    whole through their vision.

                    However, I don't believe in saying who the Pole of the World is, since everyone
                    needs to find this out for themselves. In fact, in most times through history the Pole
                    of The World was hidden. The Sufis say this as well.

                    3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?

                    Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes.

                    4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on
                    them as if the Eck Master were saying them?

                    Yes.

                    5. Who do you Trust to tell the truth about Spiritual truths? Pick one only.
                    [Names omitted]

                    I see all teachings as mines. The good ones are gold mines, but they all need to be sorted through to find the pure gold. I have found no outer teachings that are pure gold.

                    The only place to test the gold is within ourselves, when we try to use it in our lives.

                    You might point to an outer person. I would rather point to our inner knowingness to recognize truth. We often do pick it up from others, however.


                    To Journey:

                    You asked: "If you are not trying to undermine Ford and his book "Confessions of
                    a God Seeker," why did you give such a negative opinion about the book in The
                    Chanhassen Villager last November?"

                    If you read my comments to the Chanhassen Villager, just like in my last post, it is focused on the errors in what David Lane has reported and the unfortunate fact that Ford repeated these as if they were facts as David did. I am absolutely amazed at how far the distortion of truths from David Lane has spread. I was disappointed that the newspaper had not done better research, and that Ford had not as well, especially since David Lane himself suggested to Ford that he study my book more thoroughly to see what had been discussed via the Internet.

                    I am just as amazed at how quickly and completely people assume that I am some
                    kind of pawn in a battle or fighting some kind of war against Ford for pointing out
                    the errors. I guess this goes to show how far off perceptions of someone else's motivations
                    can be. People will imagine what my motivations are, but they are a million miles from
                    the mark.

                    I do agree that some people like to win their arguments no matter what, and since I have no interest in that, this is exactly why I have said I would say no more about such things unless folks here were interested. From the responses I've seen, there doesn't seem to be much interest in what I was writing about.

                    I think you are right that we should all look at our motivations. I have certainly done so and have tried only to offer help in clearing up some of the confusions that have been going on for a while by getting to the facts. I have tried to stay far from criticizing anyone else's beliefs, although I do think some friendly dialogue in this area is good.

                    I think it is just as important to look at the motivations for bringing up my personal motivations. I have not questioned Ford's motivations, nor would I. I think his intentions are sincere. Getting stuck over another person's so-called intentions is often the way our Censor stops us from seeing another person's point of view fairly.

                    When we get so attached to our cause, anyone who says anything that appears to
                    interfere with our cause becomes or enemy. The motivations of our enemies are always wrong in our minds. Ask them and they would say the same about their enemies.

                    It is a sad fact that public dialogue over religious matters is almost impossible these days.
                    This was not true in America during its early days. Public dialogue was often lively and contentious, but never came to people disowning their neighbors or rejecting their families and friends like it does today.

                    As far as I am concerned, we are all friends here with a common interest in Spiritual Truth.
                    That is how I see it. And we will each decide for ourselves what is true, as we should.


                    To DD:

                    You wrote: "You spend all of your time chipping away at the edges of the argument,
                    finding miniscule points of contention (a minor date discrepancy here, a location there)
                    but not once do you address the underlying core truth that is being and has been
                    expressed here from the very beginning."

                    Exactly right. So why is everyone getting so worked up about it? Why is no one
                    simply acknowledging the minor points and letting it go? These are not core truths,
                    just a matter of correcting errors in fact.

                    No, I don't agree that my "can't we all get along" message doesn't help us get at the truth. In fact, let me say it this way: If we can not listen to those who see things differently than we do, then we will never see Truth. This doesn't mean we should all agree, but it certainly
                    does mean that we should be able to hold respectful and friendly conversations
                    with those who have a different way of seeing things. We should be open to learning from
                    others.

                    You wrote: "Your method is to find a few unimportant discrepancies and use them
                    as an attempt to discredit the entire revelation of overall truth discovered."

                    This is incorrect. I am only trying to point out the errors. I am not trying to discredit the entire message. But clearly, after we have seen the facts for what they are, the overall picture does change somewhat. That's natural.

                    Since so many of David Lane's claims are in fact not based on facts at all, but merely
                    on imagined intentions and speculations, I have also offered other possible interpretations.
                    My point is not that David's guesses are wrong and mine are right, but simply to
                    show how widely interpretations can vary when there are no facts.

                    You are the one who is painting a picture of black and white, not I. I don't see David
                    or Ford as all wrong, nor as all right. I say let's find the gold wherever we look.
                    Why blame anyone for the fact that everything they offer is not pure gold?

                    Lastly, you suggest that I am defending a teaching and that I am an apologist.
                    Okay, perhaps I am. I don't feel that is what I am doing, but I can see it would
                    look that way to you. But surely you see that your comments are the same. You are
                    also defending your beliefs. In fact, everyone who has responded to my post on this
                    bulletin board has picked at what I would call minor, technical details and
                    completely avoided my points. This doesn't mean you or anyone else here is any less
                    sincere, does it?


                    To Nacal:

                    You asked: "Where do you ever give a reference or a quote from your sources?"

                    They are in my book, and have been thoroughly discussed on alt.religion.eckankar
                    and can be found in the records there. I would be glad to present them here as
                    well, if anyone was interested.

                    You asked: "Why have you returned without answering the questions posed to you
                    by site members in previous postings? When did Twitchell first write about the
                    mahanta?

                    Was it 1969 as one site member has stated?"

                    I answered last time that I had just moved to a new home and my files were still
                    packed in boxes. They are still packed in boxes, but a few are handy so I pulled out
                    Paul's old Wisdom Notes and Illuminated Way Letters.

                    You seem to be right. Paul didn't use the word, Mahanta, until the January 1969
                    Illuminated Way Letter and the February 1969 Wisdom Note. Before then he mainly used, The
                    Master, Spiritual Traveler, Teacher, etc. Not even the mention of Living ECK
                    Master very often, although Outer Master and living Master were mentioned often.

                    This is interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

                    You wrote: "You are also being untruthful when you say that you, "… have no
                    desire to interfere with the beliefs of anyone."

                    And how would you know that? You seem to know my own desires and intentions
                    better than I do. Clearly I will need to ask you next time what my intentions
                    and desires are.

                    This is foolishness. Do you realize how hard it is to know the desires of your
                    own children?

                    How often do parents misunderstand what their children are trying to do? Have
                    you never had this happen to you when you were a child? Yet you think you can
                    actually guess my desires, when you don't even know me? Have we even met?

                    Why do people spend so much time imagining they KNOW the intentions of those
                    they disagree with?

                    I see this with ECKists just as often as with David Lane and the group here. So,
                    I'm not picking on this group. I see it as a real trap and an excuse to justify
                    rejecting what another person has to say.

                    You wrote: "You also claim to "have enjoyed the conversations on this bulletin
                    board" and yet you only respond to selective questions."

                    That's right. That was what I came here to share, after Ford claimed that I was
                    not after the kind of truth that could be discussed openly and that my book was
                    not about encouraging open dialogue. I came here for just that kind of dialogue,
                    but guess what? No one here wants to discuss the facts or the errors openly.

                    If I were Ford, I would care enough to make sure the facts I was using were
                    accurate. I thought, especially as a lawyer, he would want to know.

                    You wrote: "You attempt to confuse (like Paul and Harold) by twisting and
                    abusing truth in order to blind the reader with your distortions and illusions of reality."

                    If you really believe this, then why not point out a quote where you feel this
                    is what I am attempting to do, rather than making broad accusations about my
                    motivations? Why not just address directly what what I am saying and point out
                    how you see it differently? I have no intention of twisting the truth in anyway
                    at all.

                    You wrote: "Is what Harold's teaches (Eckankar) a myth?

                    "Since I brought the subject up can you tell me if the Holocaust was a myth or
                    not?

                    "Some things ARE black and white so just give a yes or no answer to the
                    previously mentioned two questions. Please, no long-winded explanation, yes or
                    no to each question."

                    Sorry, I don't do yes or no answers, but I'll be glad to discuss your questions.
                    Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught about Eckankar is a myth. Yes, I think
                    a lot of what people think about the Holocaust is made up of myth as well. This
                    doesn't mean that the Holocaust didn't happen, or that many of the stories or
                    facts are lies. It just means that people often try to simplify things.

                    History is largely made up of myth. There are a million personal individual
                    stories about World War II, for example, yet the history books treat it as one
                    thing that happened. The people who go through it don't see it the way the
                    history books do. They were there, but the myths are what we can deal with to
                    understand. Otherwise it is too complex.

                    You wrote: "Doug, instead of focusing on David Lane or Ford's book let's now
                    focus on the writings of Twitchell and Klemp and see where we can find
                    inaccuracies, or is the world still flat to you? Did you like the posting from
                    the May-June-July 1971 Mystic World about Twitchell? "No one really knows for
                    sure where he came from, when he was born, or if his true name is even Paul
                    Twitchell. How long he has been on this Earth planet is not known." Or, how
                    about this quote from the same article, "Paul is known to the world as Peddar
                    Zaskq, which is his real name, is an occidental." Wasn't this also his name for
                    his last incarnation and his spiritual name?"

                    Obviously we now know where he came from and was born (Paducah, Kentucky) and
                    that his true name was not Paul Twitchell, but was John Paul Twitchell. We also
                    now know when he was born (1909). Paul certainly didn't ever talk about these
                    things, nor would he answer questions about them directly, and I think he liked
                    the idea that his past was mysterious, and he helped to create this mysterious
                    past. Yes, Paul is only known to the world as Peddar Zaskq because he told the
                    world that was his spiritual name.

                    And yes, this is the kind of writing that is mythological. Did you think I would
                    say something else?

                    You went on: "Let's now go back up to the preceding paragraph since you seem to
                    claim to like "facts" (why don't you give your sources?). "But it is a fact that
                    his Master Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan lama, who appears to be in his
                    early forties, was a young man when Columbus discovered America." Now, was that
                    really a "fact," or a delusional belief, or a deliberate lie? Or, is it that,
                    "There is a need of the people to believe in the magic of a saviour, and Sri
                    Paul Twitchell knows this and acts out the part" (same article)."

                    It certainly is no fact, since there are no records nor anything else to prove
                    that Rebazar Tarzs even exists, never mind how old he really is. However, there
                    is no proof that it is a lie, either. It certainly sounds far-fetched. But I
                    don't think the belief in saints, saviors and spiritual teachers comes from the
                    desire to believe in magic. I think it comes from the innate memory within Soul
                    that there is a truth and meaning to life that most of the world seems to have
                    forgotten, but some remember.

                    As Rumi once said, the reason that false gold is so popular is because there is
                    such a thing as real gold.

                    Of course, mixed with this is that many people want a father figure, or want
                    someone to take care of them and tell them what is right and wrong.

                    You wrote: "The sad thing is that there is no freedom in religion… there is only
                    control through the use of fear and surrender of the common sense of having an
                    open mind, and of course, the dangled carrot of initiation and hope."

                    It certainly seems that way. To me, without freedom there is no point to a
                    spiritual teaching. It is simply a social group. There is more peer pressure and
                    more influence from the people who want everyone to be harmonious rather than
                    speaking honestly, than control from above, but in general I agree with you.

                    You wrote: "Paul states, "Ramaji was one of the first initiates in the ancient
                    Order of the Vairagi." It seems Paul has a problem spelling his name. "Ji" is a
                    Hindu suffix used to denote respect and affection. But, Paul is not speaking of
                    Rama."

                    Why do you think that Paul is referring to someone different than Rama? The
                    Hindus often add the "ji" to the end of a name, and sometimes it is written with
                    only the "j". Take the name Shamus-i-Tabriz. Generally this is spelled, Shams of
                    Tabriz. Same person. Jalalludin Rumi is spelled dozens of ways. Sometimes he is
                    also called Mevlana. Same person. Sometimes it is written Shabda Yoga, sometimes
                    Shabd Yog. Sometimes Yoga is spelled Joga. I interpret this quote from Paul to
                    be referring to the same person as Rama, but if you feel otherwise I would find
                    it interesting to hear why.

                    You asked: "By the way, why has Harold evaded giving his birth date and age?"

                    I don't know. Probably because it is a personal fact that has nothing to do with
                    his role. But maybe it is just a hold-over from Paul. You would have to ask him.
                    My guess is that he doesn't want people holding birthday parties because of his
                    birthdate.

                    You wrote: "Also, why is it Doug that on page 282 that Harold, the mahanta,
                    doesn't even know today about an experience he had in1970. He states, "Was he
                    really an ECK Master? Who can say?" Shouldn't the Master who is greater than the
                    God of all religions know such things?"

                    I would have to read the whole quote in context. It sounds to me as if Harold is
                    asking a rhetorical question. In other words, who can say if he was a Master
                    then?

                    Actually the question I ask is how did Darwin know that he was the Mahanta, or
                    how does Harold know this? Isn't this like any initiate who might think they
                    have gained the next initiation? Isn't this the same question? How do they
                    really know?

                    You ask: "Are the initiations in Eckankar valid as a means to greater spiritual
                    growth over those who are non-eckists? Or, is this a myth too?"

                    I think the initiations are a mixed bag. There is definitely reality to them,
                    from my personal experience. But they have become filled with myths as well. I
                    can tell you that real Self-Realization is rare, HI or not. The initiation level
                    doesn't prove anything. It is more meaningful as a personal matter than a
                    comparison to others. I don't think anyone should be judging another person's
                    worth or truth by what initiation level they are at. Including the Master.

                    You asked: "Paul states on page 136 of Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK
                    Master, "Cause with all of that, see, I write books in series. I have four books
                    that are finished now; well, the Shariyat is a continued writing, but I've got
                    three books actually." So Doug, where's book three? If it wasn't finished why
                    didn't Harold go to the Astral Library to finish it?"

                    Paul wrote a number of the first chapters to book three. I think he got to chapter three or four. That's as far as it has gotten. I think that Harold thought about completing book three but for some reason decided it wasn't his place to do so. I would be surprised if Harold ever finishes book three, or tries to. But you would have to ask him if you wanted to know.

                    You wrote: "Was the "Moon Virus" that Twitchell warned of a myth or a self-promotional lie, or did he make an erroneous assumption or was it just conjecture (page 234 of "Difficulties")? Show me where Kirpal Singh's name is used with Sudar Singh's?"

                    I have no idea where Paul got the idea of the Moon Virus from. He certainly used
                    it to gain some news. It is similar in some ways to the HIV virus in the way it
                    has stumped the scientists, but I have heard no connection to the moon.

                    Here is the first quote of Paul's where he mentions Sudar Singh, from the
                    January 1964 Orion magazine:

                    "I began my study of bilocation under the tutelage of Satguru Sudar Singh, in
                    Allahabad, India. Later, I switched to Sri Kirpal Singh of old Delhi. Both
                    were teaching the Shabda Yoga, that which is called the Yoga of Sound Current. I
                    had to learn to leave my body at will and return, without effort..."


                    Here is another quote from my book:

                    "I have since found two other early articles of Paul's, that show the same
                    thing: An article that ran in early 1966 called, Can You Be In Two Places At The
                    Same Time?, shows Sudar Singh, from Allahabad, India, along with Bernard of
                    England, a Self-Realization Swami who has a retreat in Maryland, Kirpal Singh of
                    Delhi, India, and Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan monk.



                    "The second article was called, The God Eaters, and ran in the November 1964
                    issue of The Psychic Observer. In the article Paul talks about Rebazar Tarzu
                    [sic], who he "made contact with...through bilocation," and Kirpal Singh as his
                    teachers. These examples clearly show that both Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs
                    were referred to, side by side with Kirpal Singh. It was not until late 1966
                    before Paul suddenly stopped referring to Kirpal Singh."



                    You wrote: "You mention that you talked to Patti Simpson and basically she says
                    it was "funny" how Paul would evade giving out information on himself. You wrote
                    that Paul tried to leave information blank "when it came to filling out official
                    forms," but found that, "they would gladly accept whatever he wrote whether it
                    was right or wrong." In truth, Paul intentionally lied and mislead people.
                    Ironically, this is one "fact" that you have supplied to help prove the validity
                    of David Lane's claim! This is also proof that you don't even listen to your own
                    words! Perhaps, this is because your conscious subjective (self) is to evade,
                    and your unconscious objective Self (God-Soul) is to impart truth."


                    If you want to imagine that, go ahead. I think there is a big difference between
                    someone who is intentionally trying to mislead people about their age, and a
                    person who refuses to give out their age. But if you want to say that both are
                    technically lies, that's fine with me. It seems to me that you are just trying
                    to make it look like something it isn't.

                    Remember, the picture that David painted is that Paul lied to Gail about his
                    age, as he had lied about his age his whole life. In fact, Gail knew perfectly
                    well that Paul wasn't giving out his age, and so did everyone else. Pretty
                    different picture if you ask me.

                    Here's a similar example. David was accused of copyright infringment many years
                    ago (ironic, isn't it?). It was over a book written about J R Hinkins group.
                    Under oath he said one thing. In his deposition, also under oath, he said the
                    opposite. The judge politely said that his testimony was untrustworthy. David
                    claims that he was not trying to lie, he just didn't remember it correctly.
                    However, the testimony shows that the first story he told seemed like the one
                    that would best help his case. Later it turned out to be exactly the wrong
                    thing, so when asked the same question in court, he answered the opposite way.
                    He lost his case over this.

                    Would you call that lying? David doesn't. I'll take David's word for it that he
                    just forgot, even though it looks otherwise. I guess that's just how I am.

                    You wrote: "Doug you have imagined facts through your own distorted belief
                    system of myth being reality. You seem to be confused as you spread confusion to
                    others (somewhat like Typhoid Mary).You have no idea of what fact or truth is
                    because you are unable to hear truth."

                    Mighty big claims. Why not just show me the quotes where you think I'm off base
                    and share how you see it? Why imagine that I am unable to see truth?

                    I'm sure I see it differently than you do. But I have few illusions about Paul.
                    My point was to show how many illusions that David had, while claiming
                    otherwise. Ford's book has got them now, too, since he was taken in by David's
                    story. The irony is that those who are most concerned about pointing out the
                    lies and illusions of others are often just as unwilling to admit and correct
                    their own.

                    However, if you feel that I've made any errors, please point them out. David
                    caught a few, and I immediately corrected them. I would like to make my book as
                    accurate as possible, and I'm in the process of making another edit to include
                    the latest information, since we are always learning new things.

                    Thanks for asking specific questions. More of this would make a real dialogue worthwhile. And I am glad to share the specific evidence behind my comments if anyone is
                    interested.

                    Doug.



                    Degar
                    02/08/2004
                    Top

                    Be The Now!!



                    If you are a follower of the Clear Light and Silent Sound, then you follow the
                    natural order of who you really are as Beingness. The secret between the truth
                    and the lie, is intention. Intention is the prime mover of awareness. How many
                    really see themselves as the observer and the observed, the now, the present.
                    Look only to the temple within yourself, no church, building or outer temple
                    will ever point the way. In fact remove or demolish all these objects of glory,
                    pride and self righteousness for in the heart of the now resides the gift.
                    "Remind all those that show you the way to the false temple of mortar and brick
                    that you have out grown their cage and See now with the Spiritual eye only
                    Truth."

                    NO RELIGION can hold GOD to a given doctrine! Even the doctrine of Light and
                    Sound…..

                    Freedom can not be bound and Freedom will destroy all that try to hold it.

                    Man is a funny creature, he seeks the company of the one and only primal cause
                    even until death. He is even willing to kill to be near to it. He believes that
                    distance exists between himself and his Maker and he must make a journey back to
                    the Godhead. Knock, knock, is anyone home? Soul exists because it is GOD. God
                    has never posed the question, "I love Soul". Your Higher Self JUST IS, no more
                    - no less.

                    Wake up!

                    Dance, Sing and Be.

                    "All thing must pass away" – George Harrison

                    Hold on to the social consciousness if you must but as Ford and Gram are saying
                    they only opened the door you must walk through and see Freedom for yourself. Not their
                    truth, but yours.

                    After the Temple of Eck was built, I made a number of visits to it. On one of my
                    visits I noticed that the temples main entrance floor was cracked right down the
                    middle. Eckankar had it repaired, so no one had any idea what had happened. If
                    that had occurred in my life, I would have asked what Spirit was saying to me?
                    Well I did….. What it told me was that the office(ORG) and the temple
                    side(Spiritual) had a major division between them. Another way of seeing it was
                    that the true teachings of Eck were no longer within the organization.

                    Fear is the last thing to go…… Pure awareness of consciousness can only be
                    experienced without fear.

                    The events unfolding before us have the blessing of the Holy Order of the World
                    Adepts or it would not be.

                    This is not an end to something, but more of a beginning.

                    Degar *




                    Kermit
                    02/08/2004
                    Top

                    Solipsist Reprieve: My Story -- Why I Left Eckankar



                    Soul, if It exists, could have entered into the agreement to share the Eckankar
                    dream. The purpose may have been for spiritual experience: to advance
                    spiritually and learn to be of service in a better and higher way and to
                    consciously learn a few other things, like the nature of illusion and deception.
                    But if I believe that soul exists, then I am asking for another round of belief
                    lessons. I had spiritual experiences, but how do I know that they are real now?
                    All I know is that I am here now and even those two adverbs are suspect.

                    Now it is the age of Aquarius and the Piscean age is over. Some astrologers say
                    that the religions of the intercessor between man and God were an aspect of the
                    Piscean phase. It is a strong aspect of the Aquarian age that the veils of the
                    intercessors be lifted. And it implies a dark night for the wizard who commands
                    his followers to "ignore that man behind the curtain." It is a bright day for
                    expose' writers. Since reading the book, I have seen other works that expose
                    Christianity and Judaism. All the political books are pointing out lies told by
                    the governments and the other party and the history books. For the Christians
                    out there: your version of "Confessions" may be the works of Timothy Freke and
                    Peter Gandy. Lies and damn lies. All religions are of the cloth of deception,
                    regardless of whose face is on the master.

                    So it appears that Eckankar has decided to maintain its position as a spiritual
                    middle school. We all saw this coming, felt it in many ways and Ford
                    articulated it for our minds in a way that we could no longer ignore. We knew
                    about David Lane and some of the plagiarism years ago and chose to forgive it.
                    We wondered why Rebazar couldn't appear for a TV spot, if he was so physical.
                    We were uncomfortable about Darwin being written out of history. The
                    restrictive guidelines.

                    When I went to receive my fifth initiation, the internal phrase kept repeating:
                    "The bloom is off the rose. . . the bloom is off the rose." I wondered what
                    that meant, but the meaning is emerging. The days of believing in Santa Clause
                    are past. Time to take the next step in becoming emancipated. Joseph Campbell
                    said that his studies gave him an overview of the myths and religions that
                    precluded his having any spiritual experiences himself. It is like the old
                    saying that he who carved the Buddha cannot worship it.

                    But I had just finished the book and was casting about and asked spirit if it
                    was true. The image of an animated Rebazar peered headfirst into my inner
                    vision and then started to mirror every movement I made. I had never had an
                    experience with him, but the message was that I was doing it and so I might as
                    well quit struggling against the curriculum. "No more Mother Goose stories for
                    you and you can pretty much forget about the tooth fairy," it told me.

                    Now I suspect why Harold is always telling fairy tales. I see an image now of
                    Paul laughing, after telling his audience that only a handful of them would
                    understand what he was trying to say. What if he was trying to say that only
                    deception exists in the world of illusion? Is Harold hinting that the teachings
                    are a fairy tale used to teach a different lesson?

                    Masters and lying liars do not come clean. But there may be more to this
                    learning than is apparent. What if Harold had told us that he had discovered
                    the truth about the whole sham and just said,

                    "Well, you can call me Harold or you can call me Gerald, but you doesn't have to
                    call me Sri anymore." Would that have been masterful? I do not know, but he
                    didn't say that. He built a temple instead.

                    One of the wake-up calls for me was an Ask-the-Master session for RESAs in one
                    of the recent books. Those guys didn't know anything. They were asking
                    questions and Harold was describing worlds and temples and I would like to think
                    that RESAs should have been able to access that information themselves, if the
                    path was working.

                    But no mastership is happening here. With Eckankar producing only two and a
                    half masters in almost 38 years, I was starting to worry that I wasn't on the
                    short list, anyway. We're all better than we were and we are better public
                    speakers, but that is not what we came for.

                    We came onto the path because it promised mastership/enlightenment. One of the
                    unspoken truths is that we don't have a chance of reaching it by way of
                    Eckankar. It has been boiling us like frogs: slowly. By the time we have been
                    around long enough to know that no one is going to go beyond the 8th initiation,
                    except one guy, our minds are no longer independent enough to get that this path
                    to mastership is not working and it not going to work.

                    Now we have talked ourselves out of a way of life. Harold would probably say we
                    have talked ourselves into a Dark Night of Soul. But that's the kind of beating
                    we would be in for if we stayed around.

                    I took a class with a lot of law enforcement types at one time. They said that
                    everyone, except the most committed sociopath, has a need to tell the truth.
                    The body language, tonal patterns and eye movements combine with other
                    unconscious clues to betray a lie or a concealed truth. One way to conceal and
                    deceive is to tell nothing but lies like Kevin Spacey's character in "The Usual
                    Suspects." This may be how Paul Twitchell did it. There is a book about this
                    subject called "Telling Lies" by Paul Ekman. It has been staring at me from my
                    bookshelf for years and it has gradually dawned on me that the title and author
                    may contain a hint.

                    My inner voice says that there is only the one I Am that smears itself across
                    the living tapestry and reabsorbs itself after one lifetime or many. So this
                    baby is going out with the bath water.

                    Thanks for tipping the scales.

                    Kermit



                    Journey
                    02/07/2004
                    Top

                    Reply to GPk: On Unloving Attitudes



                    Dear GPk,

                    As to your unloving and lack of understanding attitude, I based that on what you
                    said, especially in regards to your unkind words to Usually Skeptical.
                    You also seem to be putting down people who are posting here on this message
                    board. You continue to direct negative comments to others on this site. You come
                    across as a very angry person so I am not surprised that my comments bothered
                    you so much. You confused me because you sound like you are still an Eckist in
                    your attacks.

                    You are wrong in assuming I'm stuck/holding on to the teachings of Eckankar. I
                    was not a member that long, but I read all of Harold's transcripts and several
                    other books, attended Satsang classes, etc. From the get-go, it seemed like a
                    lot of double talk and confusing--lots of contradictions. Your postings also
                    attack Ford in that you said he was going to become the leader of a new
                    religion, that would be no different from any other group. I think you are the
                    one hung up on Eckankar. I am glad you are reading Ford's book. Then, I think
                    your comments here would be made with a better perspective, regardless of your
                    take on Ford's writings.

                    It is obvious that the only self awareness that you have ever achieved has been
                    of the little self. You seem to be still experiencing the brain washing of
                    Eckankar. The comments that you have made indicate that you are only aware of
                    the little self, rather than the higher self. Your initiation did not give you
                    self-realization. This is the flaw I see in your reasoning. But this is all
                    understandable because of the length of time you spent in the Eckankar
                    organization--you have more to dump than I do. There is a massive amount of
                    flawed concepts along with certain truths that have been mixed to such a degree
                    that it is almost impossible to decipher it all. In addition to anger, there is
                    fear that there is no truth out there--that you will not be able to find it.
                    This is, perhaps, the root of your negativity that you have lashed out on this
                    site. This is my understanding.

                    Also, I have not touted the degree of my spirituality as you have. I am only a
                    Truth Seeker.

                    Best regards and good reading,
                    Journey



                    Willy
                    02/07/2004
                    Top

                    FS Response To Ecki99 Plus 2 Laws



                    Thanks for the thorough response to the questions raised by Ecki99 and others.
                    As one other book (Christian Bible) often quoted notes "by their fruits ye shall
                    know them". Why do so many Eckists see the activities of HCS and former
                    members of Eckankar as a threat? There are no lawsuits filed, there are no
                    media exposes, there is just the statement of spiritual truths as experienced by
                    those who have taken the next step. There is no massive attempt to force Eck
                    chelas to leave their path, if that is where they are comfortable. To each his
                    own.

                    Harold has made much of Richard Maybury's two laws namely:

                    1. Do all you say you will do. (Your word is your bond, honor it.)
                    2. Do not encroach on others or their property. (Respect the integrity of
                    others.)

                    I really like these two laws, since they contain so much of spiritual truth in
                    so few words. And this world would surely be a much better place if they were
                    practiced by more people as individuals, by nations, and by spiritual paths.
                    Perhaps the organization of Eckankar and its leaders should consider how well
                    they are honoring these two laws, especially in regard to former members and
                    also in regard to current members.




                    FS
                    02/07/2004
                    Top

                    Response to Eckie_99: The Real Impact of Eckankar Mythology and The Role of HCS




                    Dear eckie_99

                    I may be starting to look predictable with the way I present my views to this
                    website, but, as many of the questions put to this site are in defence of
                    eckankar mythology, then one way of replying to these questions is to use the
                    very mythology that is being defended in order to express the truer side of
                    eckankar, the side the mahanta does not want to be seen. This reply therefore
                    will be no exception. I feel sure that this will meet with your approval.,
                    seeing as I am using the constructed, contrived, compilations of the master
                    compiler, one Paul Twitchell.

                    I quote your own words:

                    b. A Person who builds a framework that can help people grow spiritually, and
                    shows it to the world, to be judged on its own merits.

                    There is one point that you have failed to address in your defence of eckankar
                    being a framework that can help people grow, and that is, `The growth of people
                    spiritually within the framework of eckankar is dependant on Harold's acceptance
                    as to what he sees as spiritual growth, or more accurately stated, what he is
                    prepared to accept as `Truth.' I will therefore show to the world, and to you,
                    another side of how this framework of eckankar really operates in helping the
                    individual grow spiritually, and let the world judge it on its own merits.
                    Firstly, let the world see some of the teachings of eckankar that will be
                    relevant to this reply.

                    ME: This is a false premise.
                    Klemp plays the role of a
                    hypnotist and magician.
                    Any "spiritual growth" is
                    made by the individual
                    and despite Klemp's
                    interference via codependency.

                    Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                    "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and the tests
                    given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears. Every Spiritual
                    Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela to call upon the Master.
                    If the vision fails to reply then it is false".

                    Shariyat, book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                    "Be on guard, lest he who seeks without the Vi-Guru finds those who only appear
                    as the Holy One, claiming to be angels, or saints. Let none deceive the chela.
                    If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be deceived by the kal
                    Niranjan. If he has not the armour of Spirit, he can be misled".

                    Shariyat, book 1, page 149. Third Printing 1972:
                    "The ECKist knows that the presence of the Living ECK Master is always with
                    him. He is never alone".

                    What is presented here to the world, and yourself , is the truth of my own
                    experience while within this framework of eckankar and its leader, the mahanta.
                    Here is part of my letter to Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of recorded
                    inner experiences that was sent to him while following this framework of
                    eckankar, that you say, " can help people grow spiritually",

                    "All that is contained within the journal has withstood the tests of the secret words that are required to be used to prove their validity and all that you are about to read, I stand by as true."

                    Now friend, let the world see what the teachings of eckankar say about the inner
                    experiences of a chela and how they are viewed within this framework.

                    "The Shariyat book 2, pages 50-51: Second Edition 1988:
                    "No ECK Master will acknowledge his appearance to another person. This is
                    neither modesty nor is it a feeling of hiding something; in a sense he is
                    letting the individual decide for themselves whether it was really him. He
                    wants them to decide if it was reality. In this way he is not telling, nor
                    confirming his presence with them in the Atma Sarup, but allowing them the
                    independence of knowing and understanding whether it was actually him.

                    If a person makes up his mind that the living ECK Master really appeared to him,
                    then he knows it and this cannot be taken away from him, regardless. However,
                    if he has to be told that it was the ECK Master, then he is always in doubt, for
                    it was an outside source which gave him his information and not himself. It is
                    superficial knowledge and not from his own inner source.

                    He must always remember that the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master is not the one
                    to tell him of his inner experiences, nor whether the ECK Master has appeared to
                    him. But he must know this with a faith that is beyond anything that he has
                    experienced and, therefore, it will stay with him. Otherwise it may fade in
                    time, and the experiencer soon forgets whether it was really the ECK Master".

                    Now let the world see the reply from the leader of this framework of eckankar
                    that helps the individual to grow spiritually.

                    Reply from Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of inner experiences while a
                    chela under his claimed protection as the mahanta.

                    "In response to your letter and journal of inner experiences which led you to
                    think you have received the Rod of Eck Power. You have not.

                    Your instincts were right not to believe this. The Kal misled you."

                    Let it be explained to the world, and your own good self, that there was never
                    any claim made to me having had received the rod of eck power, only that it was
                    a possibility. Therefore, before we go any further, Harold Klemp is wrong in
                    his statement. Now we must look at his other words, those of `The Kal Misled
                    You`. Now friend, after being told I was misled by the kal, even though I have
                    Harold's assurance that, `If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be
                    deceived by the KAL Niranjan.`. he then fails to explain how this could have
                    happened and failed to give any further guidance as to what I could do to
                    prevent it happening again, although as we can see by the promise of this
                    framework, I should never have been misled in the first place.

                    Having now told me I was mistaken, Harold then goes on to lay the karmic
                    responsibility upon me for being responsible for leading others off the path of
                    eck.

                    "This happens more often than one would care to believe. People who fall for
                    this trick and mislead others off the path of eck become responsible for the karma."

                    Let the world and yourself take note of these words, for we are told something
                    very interesting here; "This happens more often than one would care to believe."
                    Are not these words very thought provoking? Is Harold admitting that being
                    misled by the kal while within this framework of eckankar,and, having his
                    protection of the Vi-Guru, being misled by the kal is a common occurance? If
                    this is so, then the claimed protection of the vi-guru must be failing to work.
                    Not only that, the secret words must also be failing. Let the world see what
                    eckankar has to say about the protection of its secret words:

                    Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                    "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and the tests
                    given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears. Every Spiritual
                    Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela to call upon the Master.
                    If the vision fails to reply then it is false".

                    Let it go on record that the visions within the journal's inner experiences did
                    reply and that I used the Word, and Words as is asked of the chela. Some of
                    these words being Sugmad, Wah Z, HU, Mahanta, or any of the names of the masters
                    of the vairagi.

                    Here I think we should let the world know just how important this figure of the
                    mahanta, the vi-guru really is, otherwise they may not fully realise just how
                    powerful the mahanta truly is?

                    Shariyat book 2 page 196. Second Edition 1988:
                    "The eck works are the most powerful in this world; and the mahanta, the living
                    eck master, who is the vehicle and channel for the eck, is the most powerful
                    being within the physical world, as well as the planets and all the planes
                    within the worlds of God."

                    Shariyat, book 1 says on page 81. Third Printing 1972:
                    "He is stronger than any man in intellect or spirit, for he has unlimited
                    power, and yet this strength is combined with the noble virtues of the humble
                    and gentle. All people find in him inspiration for the development of noble
                    character".

                    Shariyat, book 2 page 184 Second Edition 1988:
                    "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master has other titles. He is the Godman, the
                    Vi-Guru, the Light Giver, protector of the poor, the king of heaven, saviour of
                    mankind, the scourge of evil, and the defender of the faithful. He is the real
                    and only power in all the universes of God. No one can harm him without his
                    consent, for all that is done to him is given permission by the ECK, with his
                    consent".

                    To help further my spiritual growth within this framework of eckankar, the
                    mahanta now goes on to say:

                    "As a spiritual discipline you are put back to the First Circle of initiation
                    and are to stand aside from all eck duties for the present."

                    We can show the world that this is also against what the framework of eckankar
                    teaches:

                    Dialogues With The Master page 172:
                    First Printing 1990 "Remember this that those who demand respect and love of
                    others to themselves are only exercising the negative or attracting power. The
                    true teachings do not discipline in any way; do not set up duties or
                    difficulties or tasks for teaching their disciples."

                    This framework also tells the world, and its followers, that the teacher will
                    bring about any changes needed within a chela without any pain or difficulties.


                    Illuminated Way Letters 1966-1971 page 54 Copyright 1975 by Gail Twitchell
                    Gross:

                    "It is doubtful that the teacher will sit with his chela and discuss any
                    character faults of the aspirant. Hardly ever will the teachers tell anyone
                    what is wrong with himself, but he will concentrate on the error and bring about
                    the change from the inner to the outer world, without pain or difficulty to the
                    chelas, very often without the chela having any conscious awareness of it."

                    Dear friend, and the world. I am fully aware of what this framework of eckankar
                    has done to me, I am also fully aware of what this framework has done to many
                    others, and this is the reason why the framework of the H.C.S. was brought
                    about. It was brought about to help those who have suffered the injustice of
                    eckankar at the hands of its mythological mahanta and to give them support and
                    a free voice.

                    We can now look to another aspect of this frameworks teachings, if not its
                    practice, that of calling upon the master when the chela finds themselves in any
                    difficulty:

                    I was now left with no other recourse to attain further guidance other than to
                    write to the mahanta at the physical level. As yet, nothing has been given. Now
                    for the eckankar apologists they can say, "Get It On The Inner", but, and this
                    is very very very important, how can the individual `Get It On The Inner` when
                    the mahanta has just told the individual that all they have received on the
                    inner is the misleadings of the kal? That the chela has the right to call upon
                    the mahanta is given in the frameworks teachings. Not only has the chela the
                    right to call upon the mahanta, but the mahanta is bound by his duty to answer
                    each and every call of this nature. Let the world see the following exhibit:


                    Illuminated Way Letters, 1966-1971, PAGE 130 Copyright 1975 by Gail Twitchell
                    Gross:

                    "Whenever the chela experiences any difficulty with himself such as
                    falling into the negative trap, or even with Soul Travel, he should call upon
                    the Master to assist him, or conduct him as the soul traveller to the spiritual
                    worlds. For the Living ECK Master is bound by his mission to answer each and
                    every call of this nature".


                    Let it go on record, that the mahanta has failed in his duty, both to give the
                    inner protection that his framework promises to give, and that he has also
                    failed to assist a chela when called upon to do so. Now the world can see what
                    the framework of eckankar says about a master failing in his duty:

                    Shariyat, book 2, page 219. Second Edition 1988:
                    "If he falters or fails; it is possible that he may be taken out of this
                    position; and if he falters in his responsibility while serving as the Mahanta,
                    the Living ECK Master, it is possible that he must step down for another to take
                    his place".

                    Unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to let all see the contents of my journal and
                    come to their own understanding, and, unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to
                    answer any questions that others may wish to ask. The framework of the H.C.S.
                    has provided this facility for openness and free speech, the framework of
                    eckankar has provided only threats to those who voice dissension and doubt.

                    Shariyat, book 1, page 91. Third Printing 1972:
                    "To ridicule, to scorn, to speak mockingly of the word of the Mahanta, and not
                    to have faith in him and the cause of ECK is to bring woes on the advocator of
                    doubt. It brings his karmic progress to a halt, increases his incarnations in
                    this world, and causes him to suffer untold hardships".

                    Even if a chela, or chela's tries to broach a question that is not wanted by the framework of eckankar and its leader, its teachings provide a guidance for the party faithful of how to view this dissesion within the ranks.

                    Shariyat, book 2, pages 25-26. Second Edition 1988:
                    " It must be remembered that all complaints and all arguments against the ECK,
                    which are directed at the Mahanta, are the works of the Kal. Such assaults on
                    the Mahanta are those which originate from the Kal using the minds and
                    consciousness of those persons within its power to destroy the Mahanta and the
                    ECK, if at all possible. These are the works of the Kal, who uses religion,
                    ministers, and lay persons to bring about the downfall of the ECK, because it is
                    the truth. There will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and disguise
                    themselves under the robes of the ECK, but they are prophets with false faces
                    who are lying to the ECKist`s , but few if any who are true followers of the ECK
                    are ever deceived by these agents of the Kal".

                    What Harold Klemp and the eckankar organisation have chosen to ignore is that
                    truth, a truth that can be proven, is not an assault upon the mahanta, it is an
                    assault upon that which is untrue. If Harold Klemp as the mahanta and the
                    eckankar organisation see, and feel, that this as an assault upon them, then it
                    can only be because they have something to hide. Truth knows no fear, so why
                    does the framework of eckankar hide behind a wall of silence, instead of making
                    a stand upon its proclaimed truth in order to defend the truth of the sugmad and
                    its faithful followers?

                    Let those who have the eyes to see and the ears to ear reach their own verdict
                    from the `Facts` provided by the framework of eckankar itself , and its
                    application of its teachings by the mahanta. `By Their Actions Ye Shall Know
                    Them`

                    Dear friend, and the world, I rest my case.



                    Usually Skeptical
                    02/07/2004
                    Top

                    Response to eckie_99: I Took Your Test and Got An "A" !



                    Dear ekie,

                    Well, I looked at your test questions and have the answers... !.)

                    1.)
                    Q- What is more ethically incorrect?
                    A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold

                    2.)
                    Q- Who is less truthful?
                    A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold (that was just like #1!)

                    3.)
                    Q- Who is spiritually more developed?
                    A- "C" Those who are not afraid to see and hear truth

                    4.)
                    Q- What is a bigger spiritual crime?
                    A- "C" Not to give people the opportunity to know and choose truth over lies

                    That wasn't so hard after all... was it!

                    I graded it myself and got 100% correct!

                    Usually Skeptical

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that
                    rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"
                    >
                    > Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for
                    complete context.)
                    >
                    > To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a
                    long post though.
                    >
                    > (1)
                    >
                    > Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:
                    >
                    > [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
                    self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug
                    Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a
                    personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul
                    was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of
                    something like Dialogues With The Master.
                    >
                    > The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs.
                    Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something
                    like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar
                    Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic.
                    This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was
                    amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it
                    today.
                    >
                    > So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard
                    anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was
                    news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left
                    it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would
                    run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.
                    >
                    > It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep
                    impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the
                    tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying
                    something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush."
                    [... .]
                    >
                    > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm
                    >
                    > (2)
                    >
                    > July 2001:
                    >
                    > "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my
                    invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]
                    >
                    > Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't
                    David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that?
                    Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in
                    its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar
                    Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]
                    >
                    > http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25
                    >
                    > (3)
                    >
                    > July 2003:
                    >
                    > Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most
                    part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant
                    fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar
                    to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his
                    part ???
                    >
                    What are your on that stuff ?

                    > I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact
                    that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means
                    this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the
                    words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word
                    for word from Rebazar Tarzs.

                    > As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back
                    at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He
                    influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start
                    writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and
                    just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees
                    that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it
                    looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a
                    spin-off.

                    > It's all a matter of perspective.

                    > I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked
                    them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very
                    similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also
                    writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The
                    Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's
                    students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.

                    > On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote
                    this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm
                    glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his
                    popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about
                    that. - Doug.
                    >
                    > http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz
                    >
                    > (4) February 2004:
                    >
                    > "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I
                    can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers
                    words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying
                    them? Yes. [....]"
                    >
                    > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
                    >
                    > (5)
                    >
                    > March 2007:
                    >
                    > [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book,
                    Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?

                    > Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he
                    trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?

                    > I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The
                    River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have
                    taken The Far Country as something different.

                    > So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of
                    art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were
                    fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust
                    issue for them.

                    > I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much
                    more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual
                    teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.

                    > These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I
                    always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was
                    trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.

                    In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave
                    the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really
                    like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write
                    about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later,
                    wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts
                    are not exactly right?
                    >
                    > http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                    <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus,
                    > >
                    > > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It gives me peace
                    of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank you for being such a wise
                    soul.
                    > >
                    > > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that
                    rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? The circus of
                    eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder
                    it is to believe that it can stand as an organization. It appears like a house
                    of cards. Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and
                    do you think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their
                    membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event. Any ideas?
                    > >
                    > > Thanks
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                    > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                    (Revisited)
                    > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hello Janice and All,
                    > > Interesting. I think I'll
                    > > share some comments
                    > > to your insights below.
                    > >
                    > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                    > > "Prometheus,
                    > >
                    > > Now that is very interesting.
                    > >
                    > > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before
                    I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a
                    good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I
                    was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a
                    word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                    > >
                    > > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I
                    felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half
                    awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male
                    voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like
                    figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the
                    foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back.
                    It did.
                    > >
                    > > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being
                    a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more
                    so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed
                    the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                    > >
                    > > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term
                    relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me
                    yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming
                    an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                    > >
                    > > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                    > > many of us have had similar
                    > > experiences of being attacked
                    > > by negative entities and having
                    > > to defend ourselves. In this case
                    > > your RESA was, also, one of these
                    > > negative beings. Too bad you
                    > > couldn't protect yourself from
                    > > them, but it's deceptive when
                    > > one has placed trust in a RESA
                    > > by assuming they are always
                    > > positive and always on your side.
                    > > They are as closed minded and
                    > > defensive as is any religionist
                    > > when protecting their dogma
                    > > from too much scrutiny.
                    > >
                    > > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it
                    attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the
                    things I would not read as a<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                  • etznab@aol.com
                    What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug Marman s use of the word facts . In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 6, 2012
                      What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug
                      Marman's use of the word "facts".

                      In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my questions
                      about Rebazar Tarzs on a.r.e. - it seemed to me that in some respects
                      "facts" were somehow "secondary" to spiritual experience.

                      I thoiught about the a.r.e. thread last night trying to fathom what
                      Doug was saying about Paul's stories and things said (some of them) not
                      based on facts. And frankly, it still didn't jive with me. Off hand I
                      can remember at least two places where Paul Twitchell illustrated that
                      Rebazar Tarzs "told him" what to write. In one place (I believe)
                      Rebazar Tarzs comes to Paul's room, wakes him up, tells him to take up
                      the pencil and write. (I'm referring to Dialogues With The Master and
                      The Far Country.) So how can Doug suggest those were Paul's words based
                      on a spiritual experience?
                      Paul wrote (in so many words) that Rebazar Tarzs came and materialized
                      in his room, and in one instance (I believe) the mattress sank from the
                      weight of R.T. sitting on it.

                      It would be nice if everybody didn't go away, all those Eckists on the
                      newsgroups, and if the string of dialogues could continue today. I say
                      this because there is a lot more information and examples available to
                      share where many of "Paul's words" read as plagiarized from various
                      books by other authors - none of them by the name of Rebazar Tarzs, or
                      other Eck masters.

                      ***

                      "They" didn't succeed at booting me from a.r.e., and I didn't "move on"
                      as once suggested. To the contrary I continued to research the FACTS -
                      whether anybody likeed it or not - and have reams of examples (which
                      can be illustrated and verified by REAL evidence and FACTS) about many
                      of the things people were chewing on and debating over for years before
                      I arrived. Some of the examples I (and others) have since found are
                      those that not even David Lane was aware of (I'm talking about examples
                      of Paul's writings compared with other authors) and I think probably
                      that Doug Marman was unaware of.

                      So new information has come in since the D.L. / D.M. debates, etc. New
                      FACTS are now known. How facts can be important in one instance and
                      something else in another ... I am not sure what Doug was talking
                      about.

                      I recall from the newspapers that sometimes when something happens that
                      embarrasses the government and people want to know who is responsible -
                      such as torture of prisoners, etc. - those higher up in the ladder
                      have responded with things like: The first time I heard about it was
                      from the news / newspaper. Iow, people claim ignorance and that they
                      didn't know about something until it became public via the news. Well,
                      to admit otherwise - and that they did know about it (and for a long
                      time) - would be damning to them and public opinion would have them on
                      a spike!

                      Now I recall that (for some reason) Harold Klemp doesn't use the
                      Internet. I'm sure he reads the newspapers and watches the news, but
                      how much about the trove of FACTS regarding Paul's writings compared
                      with other authors - INCLUDING REBAZAR TARZS - is in the newspapers, or
                      on the evening news? (Maybe it should be?) Much of the new information
                      and research has been put on the Internet. That's where it is (also in
                      some books). And even there, we've probably all seen how apologists can
                      argue against certain information being true, try to marginalize people
                      and their research, even to the extent of suggesting (in so many words)
                      that facts don't matter. Or, it's not about facts.

                      Well, I've seen where it looks like people want to have it both ways.
                      Facts matter. Facts don't matter. As far as research goes, and besides
                      the stories of "spiritual experiences" that people send in, When was
                      the last time the Eckankar website posted something about people doing
                      real research into the stories told by Paul Twitchell? (Not to mention
                      "research" about the stories sent in by Eckists today?) It was 1984
                      when Harold came out with all that stuff about Paul Twitchell and when
                      Harold did research. I wonder if they continue to research, or if (for
                      some reason) it stopped a long time ago?

                      Oh yeah, I remember it now.

                      "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
                      researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
                      turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to say
                      that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I [Doug
                      Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the records.
                      Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past, which
                      Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough study.
                         
                      "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
                      about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
                      further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and worked
                      for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early days.
                      So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [....] A few
                      months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
                      began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
                      share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
                      anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
                      unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
                      see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [....]"

                      [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]

                      "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                      Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                      1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                      Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                      Singh, who is not the same person at all.
                      "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                      whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                      all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                      more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                      initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                      "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                      just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                      report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                      Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

                      [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                      Harold Klemp - see link]

                      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

                      They got reports? Hmm ... then maybe I should send in a report? :)

                      I could give other examples where it looks like Eckankar is interested
                      in stories from other people, including what people found by research.
                      Apparently though, the LEM. isn't going to simply look at the Eck-Vidya
                      and share answers to all of the questions people have. At the same time
                      though, it looks like people pick and choose from all the information
                      only what "THEY WANT" the facts to be and put the rest under the rug.

                      If one disregards the reported facts written by Paul Twitchell
                      concerning his meetings, encounters, and relationships with Eck Masters
                      then where does it leave you? In Never Never Land with Peter Pan and
                      Tinker Bell, etc.? (Hey look! He's playing a flute!)

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverland

                      Are "spiritual experiences", the "stories" (and the stories that people
                      send in) somehow more REAL than factual accounts which can be
                      researched and verified? Or, Are "spiritual experiences" sometimes used
                      as a label for anything a person wants to be true? Iow, does the land
                      of make believe trump the actual facts? This is what it comes down to,
                      IMO.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                      <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sat, May 5, 2012 10:57 pm
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                      (Revisited)

                       
                      BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus:

                      A Calm And Peaceful Message For All

                      Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is
                      being typed.
                      I have really been for the most part enjoying the dialogue on this
                      message board.

                      I would like to encourage Doug Marman to continue posting here. I think
                      gradually
                      we can all learn something that will help us move toward a greater
                      understanding.

                      We can do this together regardless of religious belief and possibly
                      emerge in
                      a place with no fences. I have many friends from different beliefs and
                      something
                      I have noticed in the last 10 years or so is that our differences don't
                      separate
                      us as much as they used to. There is a coming together of sorts and a
                      move
                      towards higher conciousness.

                      I have seen this come about through heartfelt sharing of ideas.

                      ***A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still an Eckist?

                      I send all who read this my love

                      Freeman

                      Joey Ward
                      02/09/2004
                      Top

                      Thanks Doug

                      Thank you very much for the reply to the 5 questions that I asked of
                      you. Also thanks for
                      looking through Paul Twitchell's writings and finding the same thing
                      that I found out about
                      Paul not using the term MAHANTA until January 1969. It means a lot to
                      me that you answered that question I ask a while back. I join Eckankar
                      because the Mahanta was the highest state of consciousness in this
                      world and in the inner worlds so said Paul Twitchell the 971st MAHANTA
                      (the title he gave himself). I still wonder why Paul would say such a
                      thing. To me this is the biggest lie that any person could say. To make
                      up a line of Mahanta Masters, (highest state of consciousness and God
                      made flesh) what was Paul thinking of. O' well !!! I guess the next
                      time I see Paul in the astral library I will give him a kick in the
                      pants.

                      Thanks Doug,
                      Joey Ward

                      PS..... Doug, next time you see Harold, could you tell him that Joey
                      would like to see Him
                      start posting on The Truth Seeker Bulletin Board. It sure would be
                      grand of Harold to do so.
                      Thanks again for your help.

                      Seeker For The Last Time
                      02/08/2004
                      Top

                      Another X`Eckist Story

                      I joined Eckankar in the early 80's, attracted partly because of their
                      concept of Soul Travel
                      and left in the mid-90's. I had become a 3rd Initiate by that time.
                      Because of my outspoken
                      aggressive remarks and asking too many questions about concealed facts
                      about the organization, many wondered why the LEM had allowed me to
                      reach that level.

                      Initiations and secret words and the idea that we need a Master, mean
                      nothing to me
                      in this life because in my different existences I was connected to many
                      of these concepts.
                      There were times I needed these secret words and initiations and a
                      Master and for those
                      who need them now, it is OK. It is something many have to experience,
                      if not in this lifetime,
                      in a different one.

                      In the mid-80's, I posted a few remarks on ARE. This was a good lesson
                      for me, because
                      some of the die-hard ECKists attempted to attack me with their "sword
                      from the Sugmad"
                      and "weed me out of the garden of ECK." I had no grudge against them
                      because I knew
                      they would learn to open their minds. At the time, they believed in
                      what they did and
                      that it was the right thing for them to do. I accepted it.

                      I hadn't been on ARE for a long time but a few weeks ago I was impelled
                      to go on it
                      and out popped the information concerning Ford Johnson's book. In the
                      past, ECKist
                      would say it was the ECK or LEM. I ordered the book, which I am
                      enjoying now.
                      It brought back some memories of Eckankar.

                      I was very surprised to see some of the die-hard and long-standing
                      ECKists,including
                      High Initiates, especially Nathan. This was a shock and it takes a lot
                      to shock me. I am
                      very happy for Nathan because we had communicated in the past. Nathan
                      would make
                      a very high class lawyer in this life(have no idea what he does). Boy,
                      did he swing that
                      sword for Eckankar. He left nothing standing. But that was then and now
                      is now. I am
                      happy, Nathan that you allowed yourself to open and move beyond the
                      garden of ECK.
                      There is so much more to learn.

                      To some Eckankar is still a beautiful garden and I can respect that. I
                      would like to stress
                      that I have nothing against Eckankar and similar religions. They may be
                      needed for souls
                      to grow.

                      I enjoyed reading the comments on this board..and I'll be back when I
                      have time.

                      I'll sign off with the name I used to use on ARE - Seeker, for the last
                      time.

                      Doug Marman
                      02/08/2004
                      Top

                      A Few Responses

                      I've received a number of comments to my last post.

                      I will respond to some of the questions and comments.

                      To Degar:

                      I agree with you that no church, book or religion can replace the part
                      of us
                      that knows. We also both agree on the importance of fearlessness in
                      seeing
                      truth, and the importance of teachings with heart.

                      My lights are fine, as are yours.

                      To Joey Ward:

                      I don't do yes or no questions, but I will try to keep my answers
                      short:

                      1. Did Paul Twitchell have the highest state of consciousness as the
                      Godman
                      as he told the world through his writings?

                      I don't know how anyone could say who was highest or who is even higher
                      than another.
                      So, I would never say such a thing, myself. I don't even think having
                      the highest state
                      of consciousness should be anyone's goal. A person can gain a high
                      state of consciousness
                      and be unable to make a living here in the physical. That's not very
                      useful.

                      2. Does Harold Klemp have the highest state of consciousness as the
                      Godman
                      as he is telling the world throught his writings?

                      Same as above, however, I will add this. I agree with the Sufis who say
                      that there is
                      what they call The Pole of The World. The Sufi teacher Ibn al' Arabi
                      points out that this
                      same principle applies at every level of human affairs. Another Sufi
                      put it this way:
                      "Just as there is someone who acts as the pole for the whole of
                      humanity, so there
                      are poles for every faith, community, occupation - even down to the
                      level of towns."

                      We sense when we are near such people since they seem to represent and
                      carry the
                      whole of the town or company or faith that they are a part of. Every
                      age has those
                      who carry the whole of things for the world at every level. We connect
                      to that whole
                      through their vision.

                      However, I don't believe in saying who the Pole of the World is, since
                      everyone needs
                      to find this out for themselves. In fact, in most times through history
                      the Pole of The
                      World was hidden. The Sufis say this as well.

                      3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?

                      Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes.

                      4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters
                      names on them
                      as if the Eck Master were saying them?

                      Yes.

                      5. Who do you Trust to tell the truth about Spiritual truths? Pick
                      one only. [Names omitted]

                      I see all teachings as mines. The good ones are gold mines, but they
                      all need to be sorted
                      through to find the pure gold. I have found no outer teachings that are
                      pure gold.

                      The only place to test the gold is within ourselves, when we try to use
                      it in our lives.

                      You might point to an outer person. I would rather point to our inner
                      knowingness
                      to recognize truth. We often do pick it up from others, however.

                      To Journey:

                      You asked: "If you are not trying to undermine Ford and his book
                      "Confessions of a God Seeker," why did you give such a negative opinion
                      about the book in The Chanhassen Villager last November?"

                      If you read my comments to the Chanhassen Villager, just like in my
                      last post, it is focused
                      on the errors in what David Lane has reported and the unfortunate fact
                      that Ford repeated
                      these as if they were facts as David did. I am absolutely amazed at how
                      far the distortion
                      of truths from David Lane has spread. I was disappointed that the
                      newspaper had not done
                      better research, and that Ford had not as well, especially since David
                      Lane himself suggested
                      to Ford that he study my book more thoroughly to see what had been
                      discussed via the Internet.

                      I am just as amazed at how quickly and completely people assume that I
                      am some kind
                      of pawn in a battle or fighting some kind of war against Ford for
                      pointing out the errors.
                      I guess this goes to show how far off perceptions of someone else's
                      motivations can be.
                      People will imagine what my motivations are, but they are a million
                      miles from the mark.

                      I do agree that some people like to win their arguments no matter what,
                      and since I have
                      no interest in that, this is exactly why I have said I would say no
                      more about such things
                      unless folks here were interested. From the responses I've seen, there
                      doesn't seem to be
                      much interest in what I was writing about.

                      I think you are right that we should all look at our motivations. I
                      have certainly done so and
                      have tried only to offer help in clearing up some of the confusions
                      that have been going on
                      for a while by getting to the facts. I have tried to stay far from
                      criticizing anyone else's beliefs, although I do think some friendly
                      dialogue in this area is good.

                      I think it is just as important to look at the motivations for bringing
                      up my personal motivations. I have not questioned Ford's motivations,
                      nor would I. I think his intentions are sincere. Getting stuck over
                      another person's so-called intentions is often the way our Censor stops
                      us from seeing another person's point of view fairly.

                      When we get so attached to our cause, anyone who says anything that
                      appears to interfere
                      with our cause becomes or enemy. The motivations of our enemies are
                      always wrong
                      in our minds. Ask them and they would say the same about their enemies.

                      It is a sad fact that public dialogue over religious matters is almost
                      impossible these days.
                      This was not true in America during its early days. Public dialogue was
                      often lively and contentious, but never came to people disowning their
                      neighbors or rejecting their families and friends like it does today.

                      As far as I am concerned, we are all friends here with a common
                      interest in Spiritual Truth.
                      That is how I see it. And we will each decide for ourselves what is
                      true, as we should.

                      To DD:

                      You wrote: "You spend all of your time chipping away at the edges of
                      the argument,
                      finding miniscule points of contention (a minor date discrepancy here,
                      a location there)
                      but not once do you address the underlying core truth that is being and
                      has been expressed
                      here from the very beginning."

                      Exactly right. So why is everyone getting so worked up about it? Why is
                      no one simply
                      acknowledging the minor points and letting it go? These are not core
                      truths, just a matter
                      of correcting errors in fact.

                      No, I don't agree that my "can't we all get along" message doesn't help
                      us get at the truth.
                      In fact, let me say it this way: If we can not listen to those who see
                      things differently than
                      we do, then we will never see Truth. This doesn't mean we should all
                      agree, but it certainly
                      does mean that we should be able to hold respectful and friendly
                      conversations with those
                      who have a different way of seeing things. We should be open to
                      learning from others.

                      You wrote: "Your method is to find a few unimportant discrepancies and
                      use them
                      as an attempt to discredit the entire revelation of overall truth
                      discovered."

                      This is incorrect. I am only trying to point out the errors. I am not
                      trying to discredit
                      the entire message. But clearly, after we have seen the facts for what
                      they are, the
                      overall picture does change somewhat. That's natural.

                      Since so many of David Lane's claims are in fact not based on facts at
                      all, but merely
                      on imagined intentions and speculations, I have also offered other
                      possible interpretations.
                      My point is not that David's guesses are wrong and mine are right, but
                      simply to show how
                      widely interpretations can vary when there are no facts.

                      You are the one who is painting a picture of black and white, not I. I
                      don't see David
                      or Ford as all wrong, nor as all right. I say let's find the gold
                      wherever we look.
                      Why blame anyone for the fact that everything they offer is not pure
                      gold?

                      Lastly, you suggest that I am defending a teaching and that I am an
                      apologist.
                      Okay, perhaps I am. I don't feel that is what I am doing, but I can see
                      it would look
                      that way to you. But surely you see that your comments are the same.
                      You are also
                      defending your beliefs. In fact, everyone who has responded to my post
                      on this
                      bulletin board has picked at what I would call minor, technical details
                      and completely
                      avoided my points. This doesn't mean you or anyone else here is any
                      less sincere,
                      does it?

                      To Nacal:

                      You asked: "Where do you ever give a reference or a quote from your
                      sources?"

                      They are in my book, and have been thoroughly discussed on
                      alt.religion.eckankar
                      and can be found in the records there. I would be glad to present them
                      here as well,
                      if anyone was interested.

                      You asked: "Why have you returned without answering the questions posed
                      to you
                      by site members in previous postings? When did Twitchell first write
                      about the mahanta?
                      Was it 1969 as one site member has stated?"

                      I answered last time that I had just moved to a new home and my files
                      were still packed
                      in boxes. They are still packed in boxes, but a few are handy so I
                      pulled out Paul's old
                      Wisdom Notes and Illuminated Way Letters.

                      You seem to be right. Paul didn't use the word, Mahanta, until the
                      January 1969 Illuminated
                      Way Letter and the February 1969 Wisdom Note. Before then he mainly
                      used, The Master, Spiritual Traveler, Teacher, etc. Not even the
                      mention of Living ECK Master very often, although Outer Master and
                      living Master were mentioned often.

                      This is interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

                      You wrote: "You are also being untruthful when you say that you, "…
                      have no
                      desire to interfere with the beliefs of anyone."

                      And how would you know that? You seem to know my own desires and
                      intentions
                      better than I do. Clearly I will need to ask you next time what my
                      intentions and
                      desires are.

                      This is foolishness. Do you realize how hard it is to know the desires
                      of your own children?
                      How often do parents misunderstand what their children are trying to
                      do? Have you never had this happen to you when you were a child? Yet
                      you think you can actually guess my desires, when you don't even know
                      me? Have we even met?

                      Why do people spend so much time imagining they KNOW the intentions of
                      those they
                      disagree with?

                      I see this with ECKists just as often as with David Lane and the group
                      here. So, I'm not picking on this group. I see it as a real trap and an
                      excuse to justify rejecting what another person has to say.

                      You wrote: "You also claim to "have enjoyed the conversations on this
                      bulletin board" and yet
                      you only respond to selective questions."

                      That's right. That was what I came here to share, after Ford claimed
                      that I was not after the kind of truth that could be discussed openly
                      and that my book was not about encouraging open dialogue. I came here
                      for just that kind of dialogue, but guess what? No one here wants to
                      discuss the facts or the errors openly.

                      If I were Ford, I would care enough to make sure the facts I was using
                      were accurate.
                      I thought, especially as a lawyer, he would want to know.

                      You wrote: "You attempt to confuse (like Paul and Harold) by twisting
                      and abusing truth
                      in order to blind the reader with your distortions and illusions of
                      reality."

                      If you really believe this, then why not point out a quote where you
                      feel this is what I am attempting to do, rather than making broad
                      accusations about my motivations? Why not just address directly what
                      what I am saying and point out how you see it differently? I have no
                      intention of twisting the truth in anyway at all.

                      You wrote: "Is what Harold's teaches (Eckankar) a myth?

                      "Since I brought the subject up can you tell me if the Holocaust was a
                      myth or not?

                      "Some things ARE black and white so just give a yes or no answer to the
                      previously mentioned two questions. Please, no long-winded explanation,
                      yes or no to each question."

                      Sorry, I don't do yes or no answers, but I'll be glad to discuss your
                      questions. Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught about Eckankar is a
                      myth. Yes, I think a lot of what people think about the Holocaust is
                      made up of myth as well. This doesn't mean that the Holocaust didn't
                      happen, or that many of the stories or facts are lies. It just means
                      that people often try to simplify things.

                      History is largely made up of myth. There are a million personal
                      individual stories about World War II, for example, yet the history
                      books treat it as one thing that happened. The people who go through it
                      don't see it the way the history books do. They were there, but the
                      myths are what we can deal with to understand. Otherwise it is too
                      complex.

                      You wrote: "Doug, instead of focusing on David Lane or Ford's book
                      let's now focus on the writings of Twitchell and Klemp and see where we
                      can find inaccuracies, or is the world still flat to you? Did you like
                      the posting from the May-June-July 1971 Mystic World about Twitchell?
                      "No one really knows for sure where he came from, when he was born, or
                      if his true name is even Paul Twitchell. How long he has been on this
                      Earth planet is not known." Or, how about this quote from the same
                      article, "Paul is known to the world as Peddar Zaskq, which is his real
                      name, is an occidental." Wasn't this also his name for his last
                      incarnation and his spiritual name?"

                      Obviously we now know where he came from and was born (Paducah,
                      Kentucky) and that his true name was not Paul Twitchell, but was John
                      Paul Twitchell. We also now know when he was born (1909). Paul
                      certainly didn't ever talk about these things, nor would he answer
                      questions about them directly, and I think he liked the idea that his
                      past was mysterious, and he helped to create this mysterious past. Yes,
                      Paul is only known to the world as Peddar Zaskq because he told the
                      world that was his spiritual name.

                      And yes, this is the kind of writing that is mythological. Did you
                      think I would say something else?

                      You went on: "Let's now go back up to the preceding paragraph since you
                      seem to claim to like "facts" (why don't you give your sources?). "But
                      it is a fact that his Master Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan lama,
                      who appears to be in his early forties, was a young man when Columbus
                      discovered America." Now, was that really a "fact," or a delusional
                      belief, or a deliberate lie? Or, is it that, "There is a need of the
                      people to believe in the magic of a saviour, and Sri Paul Twitchell
                      knows this and acts out the part" (same article)."

                      It certainly is no fact, since there are no records nor anything else
                      to prove that Rebazar Tarzs even exists, never mind how old he really
                      is. However, there is no proof that it is a lie, either. It certainly
                      sounds far-fetched. But I don't think the belief in saints, saviors and
                      spiritual teachers comes from the desire to believe in magic. I think
                      it comes from the innate memory within Soul that there is a truth and
                      meaning to life that most of the world seems to have forgotten, but
                      some remember.

                      As Rumi once said, the reason that false gold is so popular is because
                      there is such a thing
                      as real gold.

                      Of course, mixed with this is that many people want a father figure, or
                      want someone to take
                      care of them and tell them what is right and wrong.

                      You wrote: "The sad thing is that there is no freedom in religion…
                      there is only control through the use of fear and surrender of the
                      common sense of having an open mind, and of course, the dangled carrot
                      of initiation and hope."

                      It certainly seems that way. To me, without freedom there is no point
                      to a spiritual teaching. It is simply a social group. There is more
                      peer pressure and more influence from the people who want everyone to
                      be harmonious rather than speaking honestly, than control from above,
                      but in general I agree with you.

                      You wrote: "Paul states, "Ramaji was one of the first initiates in the
                      ancient Order of the Vairagi." It seems Paul has a problem spelling his
                      name. "Ji" is a Hindu suffix used to denote respect and affection. But,
                      Paul is not speaking of Rama."

                      Why do you think that Paul is referring to someone different than Rama?
                      The Hindus often add the "ji" to the end of a name, and sometimes it is
                      written with only the "j". Take the name Shamus-i-Tabriz. Generally
                      this is spelled, Shams of Tabriz. Same person. Jalalludin Rumi is
                      spelled dozens of ways. Sometimes he is also called Mevlana. Same
                      person. Sometimes it is written Shabda Yoga, sometimes Shabd Yog.
                      Sometimes Yoga is spelled Joga. I interpret this quote from Paul to be
                      referring to the same person as Rama, but if you feel otherwise I would
                      find it interesting to hear why.

                      You asked: "By the way, why has Harold evaded giving his birth date and
                      age?"

                      I don't know. Probably because it is a personal fact that has nothing
                      to do with his role. But maybe it is just a hold-over from Paul. You
                      would have to ask him. My guess is that he doesn't want people holding
                      birthday parties because of his birthdate.

                      You wrote: "Also, why is it Doug that on page 282 that Harold, the
                      mahanta, doesn't even know today about an experience he had in1970. He
                      states, "Was he really an ECK Master? Who can say?" Shouldn't the
                      Master who is greater than the God of all religions know such things?"

                      I would have to read the whole quote in context. It sounds to me as if
                      Harold is asking a rhetorical question. In other words, who can say if
                      he was a Master then?

                      Actually the question I ask is how did Darwin know that he was the
                      Mahanta, or how does Harold know this? Isn't this like any initiate who
                      might think they have gained the next initiation? Isn't this the same
                      question? How do they really know?

                      You ask: "Are the initiations in Eckankar valid as a means to greater
                      spiritual growth over those who are non-eckists? Or, is this a myth
                      too?"

                      I think the initiations are a mixed bag. There is definitely reality to
                      them, from my personal experience. But they have become filled with
                      myths as well. I can tell you that real Self-Realization is rare, HI or
                      not. The initiation level doesn't prove anything. It is more meaningful
                      as a personal matter than a comparison to others. I don't think anyone
                      should be judging another person's worth or truth by what initiation
                      level they are at. Including the Master.

                      You asked: "Paul states on page 136 of Difficulties Of Becoming The
                      Living ECK Master, "Cause with all of that, see, I write books in
                      series. I have four books that are finished now; well, the Shariyat is
                      a continued writing, but I've got three books actually." So Doug,
                      where's book three? If it wasn't finished why didn't Harold go to the
                      Astral Library to finish it?"

                      Paul wrote a number of the first chapters to book three. I think he got
                      to chapter three or four. That's as far as it has gotten. I think that
                      Harold thought about completing book three but for some reason decided
                      it wasn't his place to do so. I would be surprised if Harold ever
                      finishes book three, or tries to. But you would have to ask him if you
                      wanted to know.

                      You wrote: "Was the "Moon Virus" that Twitchell warned of a myth or a
                      self-promotional lie,
                      or did he make an erroneous assumption or was it just conjecture (page
                      234 of "Difficulties")? Show me where Kirpal Singh's name is used with
                      Sudar Singh's?"

                      I have no idea where Paul got the idea of the Moon Virus from. He
                      certainly used it to gain some news. It is similar in some ways to the
                      HIV virus in the way it has stumped the scientists, but I have heard no
                      connection to the moon.

                      Here is the first quote of Paul's where he mentions Sudar Singh, from
                      the January 1964 Orion
                      magazine:

                      "I began my study of bilocation under the tutelage of Satguru Sudar
                      Singh, in Allahabad, India. Later, I switched to Sri Kirpal Singh of
                      old Delhi. Both were teaching the Shabda Yoga, that which is called
                      the Yoga of Sound Current. I had to learn to leave my body at will and
                      return, without effort..."

                      Here is another quote from my book:

                      "I have since found two other early articles of Paul's, that show the
                      same thing: An article that ran in early 1966 called, Can You Be In Two
                      Places At The Same Time?, shows Sudar Singh, from Allahabad, India,
                      along with Bernard of England, a Self-Realization Swami who has a
                      retreat in Maryland, Kirpal Singh of Delhi, India, and Rebazar Tarzs, a
                      Tibetan monk.

                      "The second article was called, The God Eaters, and ran in the November
                      1964 issue of The Psychic Observer. In the article Paul talks about
                      Rebazar Tarzu [sic], who he "made contact with...through bilocation,"
                      and Kirpal Singh as his teachers. These examples clearly show that both
                      Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs were referred to, side by side with
                      Kirpal Singh. It was not until late 1966 before Paul suddenly stopped
                      referring to Kirpal Singh."

                      You wrote: "You mention that you talked to Patti Simpson and basically
                      she says it was "funny" how Paul would evade giving out information on
                      himself. You wrote that Paul tried to leave information blank "when it
                      came to filling out official forms," but found that, "they would gladly
                      accept whatever he wrote whether it was right or wrong." In truth,
                      Paul intentionally lied and mislead people. Ironically, this is one
                      "fact" that you have supplied to help prove the validity of David
                      Lane's claim! This is also proof that you don't even listen to your own
                      words! Perhaps, this is because your conscious subjective (self) is to
                      evade, and your unconscious objective Self (God-Soul) is to impart
                      truth."

                      If you want to imagine that, go ahead. I think there is a big
                      difference between someone who is intentionally trying to mislead
                      people about their age, and a person who refuses to give out their age.
                      But if you want to say that both are technically lies, that's fine with
                      me. It seems to me that you are just trying to make it look like
                      something it isn't.

                      Remember, the picture that David painted is that Paul lied to Gail
                      about his age, as he had lied about his age his whole life. In fact,
                      Gail knew perfectly well that Paul wasn't giving out his age, and so
                      did everyone else. Pretty different picture if you ask me.

                      Here's a similar example. David was accused of copyright infringment
                      many years ago (ironic, isn't it?). It was over a book written about J
                      R Hinkins group. Under oath he said one thing. In his deposition, also
                      under oath, he said the opposite. The judge politely said that his
                      testimony was untrustworthy. David claims that he was not trying to
                      lie, he just didn't remember it correctly. However, the testimony shows
                      that the first story he told seemed like the one that would best help
                      his case. Later it turned out to be exactly the wrong thing, so when
                      asked the same question in court, he answered the opposite way. He lost
                      his case over this.

                      Would you call that lying? David doesn't. I'll take David's word for it
                      that he just forgot, even though it looks otherwise. I guess that's
                      just how I am.

                      You wrote: "Doug you have imagined facts through your own distorted
                      belief system of myth being reality. You seem to be confused as you
                      spread confusion to others (somewhat like Typhoid Mary).You have no
                      idea of what fact or truth is because you are unable to hear truth."

                      Mighty big claims. Why not just show me the quotes where you think I'm
                      off base and share how you see it? Why imagine that I am unable to see
                      truth?

                      I'm sure I see it differently than you do. But I have few illusions
                      about Paul. My point was to show how many illusions that David had,
                      while claiming otherwise. Ford's book has got them now, too, since he
                      was taken in by David's story. The irony is that those who are most
                      concerned about pointing out the lies and illusions of others are often
                      just as unwilling to admit and correct their own.

                      However, if you feel that I've made any errors, please point them out.
                      David caught a few, and I immediately corrected them. I would like to
                      make my book as accurate as possible, and I'm in the process of making
                      another edit to include the latest information, since we are always
                      learning new things.

                      Thanks for asking specific questions. More of this would make a real
                      dialogue worthwhile.
                      And I am glad to share the specific evidence behind my comments if
                      anyone is interested.

                      Doug.

                      Degar
                      02/08/2004
                      Top

                      Be The Now!!

                      If you are a follower of the Clear Light and Silent Sound, then you
                      follow the natural order of who you really are as Beingness. The secret
                      between the truth and the lie, is intention. Intention is the prime
                      mover of awareness. How many really see themselves as the observer and
                      the observed, the now, the present. Look only to the temple within
                      yourself, no church, building or outer temple will ever point the way.
                      In fact remove or demolish all these objects of glory, pride and self
                      righteousness for in the heart of the now resides the gift. "Remind all
                      those that show you the way to the false temple of mortar and brick
                      that you have out grown their cage and See now with the Spiritual eye
                      only Truth."

                      NO RELIGION can hold GOD to a given doctrine! Even the doctrine of
                      Light and Sound…..

                      Freedom can not be bound and Freedom will destroy all that try to hold
                      it.

                      Man is a funny creature, he seeks the company of the one and only
                      primal cause even until death. He is even willing to kill to be near to
                      it. He believes that distance exists between himself and his Maker and
                      he must make a journey back to the Godhead. Knock, knock, is anyone
                      home? Soul exists because it is GOD. God has never posed the question,
                      "I love Soul". Your Higher Self JUST IS, no more
                      - no less.

                      Wake up!

                      Dance, Sing and Be.

                      "All thing must pass away" – George Harrison

                      Hold on to the social consciousness if you must but as Ford and Gram
                      are saying they only
                      opened the door you must walk through and see Freedom for yourself. Not
                      their truth, but yours.

                      After the Temple of Eck was built, I made a number of visits to it. On
                      one of my visits I noticed that the temples main entrance floor was
                      cracked right down the middle. Eckankar had it repaired, so no one had
                      any idea what had happened. If that had occurred in my life, I would
                      have asked what Spirit was saying to me? Well I did….. What it told me
                      was that the office(ORG) and the temple side(Spiritual) had a major
                      division between them. Another way of seeing it was that the true
                      teachings of Eck were no longer within the organization.

                      Fear is the last thing to go…… Pure awareness of consciousness can only
                      be experienced
                      without fear.

                      The events unfolding before us have the blessing of the Holy Order of
                      the World Adepts
                      or it would not be.

                      This is not an end to something, but more of a beginning.

                      Degar *

                      Kermit
                      02/08/2004
                      Top

                      Solipsist Reprieve: My Story -- Why I Left Eckankar

                      Soul, if It exists, could have entered into the agreement to share the
                      Eckankar dream. The purpose may have been for spiritual experience: to
                      advance spiritually and learn to be of service in a better and higher
                      way and to consciously learn a few other things, like the nature of
                      illusion and deception. But if I believe that soul exists, then I am
                      asking for another round of belief lessons. I had spiritual
                      experiences, but how do I know that they are real now? All I know is
                      that I am here now and even those two adverbs are suspect.

                      Now it is the age of Aquarius and the Piscean age is over. Some
                      astrologers say that the religions of the intercessor between man and
                      God were an aspect of the Piscean phase. It is a strong aspect of the
                      Aquarian age that the veils of the intercessors be lifted. And it
                      implies a dark night for the wizard who commands his followers to
                      "ignore that man behind the curtain." It is a bright day for expose'
                      writers. Since reading the book, I have seen other works that expose
                      Christianity and Judaism. All the political books are pointing out
                      lies told by the governments and the other party and the history books.
                      For the Christians out there: your version of "Confessions" may be the
                      works of Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. Lies and damn lies. All
                      religions are of the cloth of deception, regardless of whose face is on
                      the master.

                      So it appears that Eckankar has decided to maintain its position as a
                      spiritual middle school. We all saw this coming, felt it in many ways
                      and Ford articulated it for our minds in a way that we could no longer
                      ignore. We knew about David Lane and some of the plagiarism years ago
                      and chose to forgive it. We wondered why Rebazar couldn't appear for a
                      TV spot, if he was so physical. We were uncomfortable about Darwin
                      being written out of history. The restrictive guidelines.

                      When I went to receive my fifth initiation, the internal phrase kept
                      repeating: "The bloom is off the rose. . . the bloom is off the rose."
                      I wondered what that meant, but the meaning is emerging. The days of
                      believing in Santa Clause are past. Time to take the next step in
                      becoming emancipated. Joseph Campbell said that his studies gave him
                      an overview of the myths and religions that precluded his having any
                      spiritual experiences himself. It is like the old saying that he who
                      carved the Buddha cannot worship it.

                      But I had just finished the book and was casting about and asked spirit
                      if it was true. The image of an animated Rebazar peered headfirst into
                      my inner vision and then started to mirror every movement I made. I
                      had never had an experience with him, but the message was that I was
                      doing it and so I might as well quit struggling against the curriculum.
                      "No more Mother Goose stories for you and you can pretty much forget
                      about the tooth fairy," it told me.

                      Now I suspect why Harold is always telling fairy tales. I see an image
                      now of Paul laughing, after telling his audience that only a handful of
                      them would understand what he was trying to say. What if he was trying
                      to say that only deception exists in the world of illusion? Is Harold
                      hinting that the teachings are a fairy tale used to teach a different
                      lesson?

                      Masters and lying liars do not come clean. But there may be more to
                      this learning than is apparent. What if Harold had told us that he had
                      discovered the truth about the whole sham and just said,

                      "Well, you can call me Harold or you can call me Gerald, but you
                      doesn't have to call me Sri anymore." Would that have been masterful?
                      I do not know, but he didn't say that. He built a temple instead.

                      One of the wake-up calls for me was an Ask-the-Master session for RESAs
                      in one of the recent books. Those guys didn't know anything. They
                      were asking questions and Harold was describing worlds and temples and
                      I would like to think that RESAs should have been able to access that
                      information themselves, if the path was working.

                      But no mastership is happening here. With Eckankar producing only two
                      and a half masters in almost 38 years, I was starting to worry that I
                      wasn't on the short list, anyway. We're all better than we were and we
                      are better public speakers, but that is not what we came for.

                      We came onto the path because it promised mastership/enlightenment.
                      One of the unspoken truths is that we don't have a chance of reaching
                      it by way of Eckankar. It has been boiling us like frogs: slowly. By
                      the time we have been around long enough to know that no one is going
                      to go beyond the 8th initiation, except one guy, our minds are no
                      longer independent enough to get that this path to mastership is not
                      working and it not going to work.

                      Now we have talked ourselves out of a way of life. Harold would
                      probably say we have talked ourselves into a Dark Night of Soul. But
                      that's the kind of beating we would be in for if we stayed around.

                      I took a class with a lot of law enforcement types at one time. They
                      said that everyone, except the most committed sociopath, has a need to
                      tell the truth. The body language, tonal patterns and eye movements
                      combine with other unconscious clues to betray a lie or a concealed
                      truth. One way to conceal and deceive is to tell nothing but lies like
                      Kevin Spacey's character in "The Usual Suspects." This may be how Paul
                      Twitchell did it. There is a book about this subject called "Telling
                      Lies" by Paul Ekman. It has been staring at me from my bookshelf for
                      years and it has gradually dawned on me that the title and author may
                      contain a hint.

                      My inner voice says that there is only the one I Am that smears itself
                      across the living tapestry and reabsorbs itself after one lifetime or
                      many. So this baby is going out with the bath water.

                      Thanks for tipping the scales.

                      Kermit

                      Journey
                      02/07/2004
                      Top

                      Reply to GPk: On Unloving Attitudes

                      Dear GPk,

                      As to your unloving and lack of understanding attitude, I based that on
                      what you said, especially in regards to your unkind words to Usually
                      Skeptical.
                      You also seem to be putting down people who are posting here on this
                      message board. You continue to direct negative comments to others on
                      this site. You come across as a very angry person so I am not
                      surprised that my comments bothered you so much. You confused me
                      because you sound like you are still an Eckist in your attacks.

                      You are wrong in assuming I'm stuck/holding on to the teachings of
                      Eckankar. I was not a member that long, but I read all of Harold's
                      transcripts and several other books, attended Satsang classes, etc.
                      From the get-go, it seemed like a lot of double talk and
                      confusing--lots of contradictions. Your postings also attack Ford in
                      that you said he was going to become the leader of a new religion, that
                      would be no different from any other group. I think you are the one
                      hung up on Eckankar. I am glad you are reading Ford's book. Then, I
                      think your comments here would be made with a better perspective,
                      regardless of your take on Ford's writings.

                      It is obvious that the only self awareness that you have ever achieved
                      has been of the little self. You seem to be still experiencing the
                      brain washing of Eckankar. The comments that you have made indicate
                      that you are only aware of the little self, rather than the higher
                      self. Your initiation did not give you self-realization. This is the
                      flaw I see in your reasoning. But this is all understandable because of
                      the length of time you spent in the Eckankar organization--you have
                      more to dump than I do. There is a massive amount of flawed concepts
                      along with certain truths that have been mixed to such a degree that it
                      is almost impossible to decipher it all. In addition to anger, there is
                      fear that there is no truth out there--that you will not be able to
                      find it. This is, perhaps, the root of your negativity that you have
                      lashed out on this site. This is my understanding.

                      Also, I have not touted the degree of my spirituality as you have. I am
                      only a Truth Seeker.

                      Best regards and good reading,
                      Journey

                      Willy
                      02/07/2004
                      Top

                      FS Response To Ecki99 Plus 2 Laws

                      Thanks for the thorough response to the questions raised by Ecki99 and
                      others. As one other book (Christian Bible) often quoted notes "by
                      their fruits ye shall know them". Why do so many Eckists see the
                      activities of HCS and former members of Eckankar as a threat? There
                      are no lawsuits filed, there are no media exposes, there is just the
                      statement of spiritual truths as experienced by those who have taken
                      the next step. There is no massive attempt to force Eck chelas to
                      leave their path, if that is where they are comfortable. To each his
                      own.

                      Harold has made much of Richard Maybury's two laws namely:

                      1. Do all you say you will do. (Your word is your bond, honor it.)
                      2. Do not encroach on others or their property. (Respect the integrity
                      of others.)

                      I really like these two laws, since they contain so much of spiritual
                      truth in so few words. And this world would surely be a much better
                      place if they were practiced by more people as individuals, by nations,
                      and by spiritual paths. Perhaps the organization of Eckankar and its
                      leaders should consider how well they are honoring these two laws,
                      especially in regard to former members and also in regard to current
                      members.

                      FS
                      02/07/2004
                      Top

                      Response to Eckie_99: The Real Impact of Eckankar Mythology and The
                      Role of HCS

                      Dear eckie_99

                      I may be starting to look predictable with the way I present my views
                      to this website, but, as many of the questions put to this site are in
                      defence of eckankar mythology, then one way of replying to these
                      questions is to use the very mythology that is being defended in order
                      to express the truer side of eckankar, the side the mahanta does not
                      want to be seen. This reply therefore will be no exception. I feel sure
                      that this will meet with your approval., seeing as I am using the
                      constructed, contrived, compilations of the master compiler, one Paul
                      Twitchell.

                      I quote your own words:

                      b. A Person who builds a framework that can help people grow
                      spiritually, and shows it to the world, to be judged on its own merits.

                      There is one point that you have failed to address in your defence of
                      eckankar being a framework that can help people grow, and that is, `The
                      growth of people spiritually within the framework of eckankar is
                      dependant on Harold's acceptance as to what he sees as spiritual
                      growth, or more accurately stated, what he is prepared to accept as
                      `Truth`. I will therefore show to the world, and to you, another side
                      of how this framework of eckankar really operates in helping the
                      individual grow spiritually, and let the world judge it on its own
                      merits. Firstly, let the world see some of the teachings of eckankar
                      that will be relevant to this reply.

                      Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                      " Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and
                      the tests given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears.
                      Every Spiritual Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela
                      to call upon the Master. If the vision fails to reply then it is
                      false".

                      Shariyat, book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                      "Be on guard, lest he who seeks without the Vi-Guru finds those who
                      only appear as the Holy One, claiming to be angels, or saints. Let
                      none deceive the chela. If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he
                      cannot be deceived by the kal Niranjan. If he has not the armour of
                      Spirit, he can be misled".

                      Shariyat, book 1, page 149. Third Printing 1972:
                      "The ECKist knows that the presence of the Living ECK Master is always
                      with him. He is never alone".

                      What is presented here to the world, and yourself , is the truth of my
                      own experience while within this framework of eckankar and its leader,
                      the mahanta. Here is part of my letter to Harold Klemp in regards to my
                      journal of recorded inner experiences that was sent to him while
                      following this framework of eckankar, that you say, " can help people
                      grow spiritually",

                      "All that is contained within the journal has withstood the tests of
                      the secret words that are
                      required to be used to prove their validity and all that you are about
                      to read, I stand by as true."

                      Now friend, let the world see what the teachings of eckankar say about
                      the inner experiences
                      of a chela and how they are viewed within this framework.

                      "The Shariyat book 2, pages 50-51: Second Edition 1988:
                      "No ECK Master will acknowledge his appearance to another person.
                      This is neither modesty nor is it a feeling of hiding something; in a
                      sense he is letting the individual decide for themselves whether it was
                      really him. He wants them to decide if it was reality. In this way he
                      is not telling, nor confirming his presence with them in the Atma
                      Sarup, but allowing them the independence of knowing and understanding
                      whether it was actually him.

                      If a person makes up his mind that the living ECK Master really
                      appeared to him, then he knows it and this cannot be taken away from
                      him, regardless. However, if he has to be told that it was the ECK
                      Master, then he is always in doubt, for it was an outside source which
                      gave him his information and not himself. It is superficial knowledge
                      and not from his own inner source.

                      He must always remember that the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master is not
                      the one to tell him of his inner experiences, nor whether the ECK
                      Master has appeared to him. But he must know this with a faith that is
                      beyond anything that he has experienced and, therefore, it will stay
                      with him. Otherwise it may fade in time, and the experiencer soon
                      forgets whether it was really the ECK Master".

                      Now let the world see the reply from the leader of this framework of
                      eckankar that helps
                      the individual to grow spiritually.

                      Reply from Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of inner experiences
                      while a chela under
                      his claimed protection as the mahanta.

                      "In response to your letter and journal of inner experiences which led
                      you to think you have
                      received the Rod of Eck Power. You have not.

                      Your instincts were right not to believe this. The Kal misled you."

                      Let it be explained to the world, and your own good self, that there
                      was never any claim made to me having had received the rod of eck
                      power, only that it was a possibility. Therefore, before we go any
                      further, Harold Klemp is wrong in his statement. Now we must look at
                      his other words, those of `The Kal Misled You`. Now friend, after
                      being told I was misled by the kal, even though I have Harold's
                      assurance that, `If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be
                      deceived by the KAL Niranjan.`. he then fails to explain how this could
                      have happened and failed to give any further guidance as to what I
                      could do to prevent it happening again, although as we can see by the
                      promise of this framework, I should never have been misled in the first
                      place.

                      Having now told me I was mistaken, Harold then goes on to lay the
                      karmic responsibility upon me for being responsible for leading others
                      off the path of eck.

                      "This happens more often than one would care to believe. People who
                      fall for this trick and
                      mislead others off the path of eck become responsible for the karma."

                      Let the world and yourself take note of these words, for we are told
                      something very interesting here; "This happens more often than one
                      would care to believe." Are not these words very thought provoking? Is
                      Harold admitting that being misled by the kal while within this
                      framework of eckankar,and, having his protection of the Vi-Guru, being
                      misled by the kal is a common occurance? If this is so, then the
                      claimed protection of the vi-guru must be failing to work. Not only
                      that, the secret words must also be failing. Let the world see what
                      eckankar has to say about the protection of its secret words:

                      Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                      "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and
                      the tests given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears.
                      Every Spiritual Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela
                      to call upon the Master. If the vision fails to reply then it is
                      false".

                      Let it go on record that the visions within the journal's inner
                      experiences did reply and that I used the Word, and Words as is asked
                      of the chela. Some of these words being Sugmad, Wah Z, HU, Mahanta, or
                      any of the names of the masters of the vairagi.

                      Here I think we should let the world know just how important this
                      figure of the mahanta, the vi-guru really is, otherwise they may not
                      fully realise just how powerful the mahanta truly is?

                      Shariyat book 2 page 196. Second Edition 1988:
                      "The eck works are the most powerful in this world; and the mahanta,
                      the living eck master, who is the vehicle and channel for the eck, is
                      the most powerful being within the physical world, as well as the
                      planets and all the planes within the worlds of God."

                      Shariyat, book 1 says on page 81. Third Printing 1972:
                      "He is stronger than any man in intellect or spirit, for he has
                      unlimited power, and yet this strength is combined with the noble
                      virtues of the humble and gentle. All people find in him inspiration
                      for the development of noble character".

                      Shariyat, book 2 page 184 Second Edition 1988:
                      "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master has other titles. He is the
                      Godman, the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver, protector of the poor, the king
                      of heaven, saviour of mankind, the scourge of evil, and the defender of
                      the faithful. He is the real and only power in all the universes of
                      God. No one can harm him without his consent, for all that is done to
                      him is given permission by the ECK, with his consent".

                      To help further my spiritual growth within this framework of eckankar,
                      the mahanta now goes on to say:

                      "As a spiritual discipline you are put back to the First Circle of
                      initiation and are to stand aside from all eck duties for the present."

                      We can show the world that this is also against what the framework of
                      eckankar teaches:

                      Dialogues With The Master page 172:
                      First Printing 1990 "Remember this that those who demand respect and
                      love of others to themselves are only exercising the negative or
                      attracting power. The true teachings do not discipline in any way; do
                      not set up duties or difficulties or tasks for teaching their
                      disciples."

                      This framework also tells the world, and its followers, that the
                      teacher will bring about any changes needed within a chela without any
                      pain or difficulties.

                      Illuminated Way Letters 1966-1971 page 54 Copyright 1975 by Gail
                      Twitchell Gross:
                      "It is doubtful that the teacher will sit with his chela and discuss
                      any character faults of the aspirant. Hardly ever will the teachers
                      tell anyone what is wrong with himself, but he will concentrate on the
                      error and bring about the change from the inner to the outer world,
                      without pain or difficulty to the chelas, very often without the chela
                      having any conscious awareness of it."

                      Dear friend, and the world. I am fully aware of what this framework of
                      eckankar has done to me, I am also fully aware of what this framework
                      has done to many others, and this is the reason why the framework of
                      the H.C.S. was brought about. It was brought about to help those who
                      have suffered the injustice of eckankar at the hands of its
                      mythological mahanta and to give them support and a free voice.

                      We can now look to another aspect of this frameworks teachings, if not
                      its practice, that of calling upon the master when the chela finds
                      themselves in any difficulty:

                      I was now left with no other recourse to attain further guidance other
                      than to write to the mahanta at the physical level. As yet, nothing has
                      been given. Now for the eckankar apologists they can say, "Get It On
                      The Inner", but, and this is very very very important, how can the
                      individual `Get It On The Inner` when the mahanta has just told the
                      individual that all they have received on the inner is the misleadings
                      of the kal? That the chela has the right to call upon the mahanta is
                      given in the frameworks teachings. Not only has the chela the right to
                      call upon the mahanta, but the mahanta is bound by his duty to answer
                      each and every call of this nature. Let the world see the following
                      exhibit:

                      Illuminated Way Letters, 1966-1971, PAGE 130 Copyright 1975 by Gail
                      Twitchell Gross: "Whenever the chela experiences any difficulty with
                      himself such as falling into the negative trap, or even with Soul
                      Travel, he should call upon the Master to assist him, or conduct him as
                      the soul traveller to the spiritual worlds. For the Living ECK Master
                      is bound by his mission to answer each and every call of this nature".

                      Let it go on record, that the mahanta has failed in his duty, both to
                      give the inner protection that his framework promises to give, and that
                      he has also failed to assist a chela when called upon to do so. Now
                      the world can see what the framework of eckankar says about a master
                      failing in his duty:

                      Shariyat, book 2, page 219. Second Edition 1988:
                      "If he falters or fails; it is possible that he may be taken out of
                      this position; and if he falters in his responsibility while serving as
                      the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, it is possible that he must step
                      down for another to take his place".

                      Unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to let all see the contents of my
                      journal and come to their own understanding, and, unlike the mahanta,
                      I am prepared to answer any questions that others may wish to ask. The
                      framework of the H.C.S. has provided this facility for openness and
                      free speech, the framework of eckankar has provided only threats to
                      those who voice dissension and doubt.

                      Shariyat, book 1, page 91. Third Printing 1972:
                      "To ridicule, to scorn, to speak mockingly of the word of the Mahanta,
                      and not to have faith in him and the cause of ECK is to bring woes on
                      the advocator of doubt. It brings his karmic progress to a halt,
                      increases his incarnations in this world, and causes him to suffer
                      untold hardships".

                      Even if a chela, or chela's tries to broach a question that is not
                      wanted by the framework of
                      eckankar and its leader, its teachings provide a guidance for the party
                      faithful of how to view
                      this dissesion within the ranks.

                      Shariyat, book 2, pages 25-26. Second Edition 1988:
                      " It must be remembered that all complaints and all arguments against
                      the ECK, which are directed at the Mahanta, are the works of the Kal.
                      Such assaults on the Mahanta are those which originate from the Kal
                      using the minds and consciousness of those persons within its power to
                      destroy the Mahanta and the ECK, if at all possible. These are the
                      works of the Kal, who uses religion, ministers, and lay persons to
                      bring about the downfall of the ECK, because it is the truth. There
                      will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and disguise themselves
                      under the robes of the ECK, but they are prophets with false faces who
                      are lying to the ECKist`s , but few if any who are true followers of
                      the ECK are ever deceived by these agents of the Kal".

                      What Harold Klemp and the eckankar organisation have chosen to ignore
                      is that truth, a truth that can be proven, is not an assault upon the
                      mahanta, it is an assault upon that which is untrue. If Harold Klemp as
                      the mahanta and the eckankar organisation see, and feel, that this as
                      an assault upon them, then it can only be because they have something
                      to hide. Truth knows no fear, so why does the framework of eckankar
                      hide behind a wall of silence, instead of making a stand upon its
                      proclaimed truth in order to defend the truth of the sugmad and its
                      faithful followers?

                      Let those who have the eyes to see and the ears to ear reach their own
                      verdict from the `Facts` provided by the framework of eckankar itself ,
                      and its application of its teachings by the mahanta. `By Their Actions
                      Ye Shall Know Them`

                      Dear friend, and the world, I rest my case.

                      Usually Skeptical
                      02/07/2004
                      Top

                      Response to eckie_99: I Took Your Test and Got An "A" !

                      Dear ekie,

                      Well, I looked at your test questions and have the answers... !.)

                      1.)
                      Q- What is more ethically incorrect?
                      A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold

                      2.)
                      Q- Who is less truthful?
                      A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold (that was just like #1!)

                      3.)
                      Q- Who is spiritually more developed?
                      A- "C" Those who are not afraid to see and hear truth

                      4.)
                      Q- What is a bigger spiritual crime?
                      A- "C" Not to give people the opportunity to know and choose truth over
                      lies

                      That wasn't so hard after all... was it!

                      I graded it myself and got 100% correct!

                      Usually Skeptical

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"
                      <etznab@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                      admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"
                      >
                      > Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original
                      links/threads for complete context.)
                      >
                      > To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is
                      still a long post though.
                      >
                      > (1)
                      >
                      > Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online
                      book:
                      >
                      > [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
                      self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day
                      I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in
                      the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his
                      home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was
                      trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The
                      Master.
                      >
                      > The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by
                      Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely
                      sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was
                      mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a
                      discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I
                      can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and
                      I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.
                      >
                      > So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had
                      ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested,
                      told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I
                      told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes
                      I was sorting through, but I would run ho<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Etznab and All, Yes, as you ve pointed out (below) both Marman and Klemp have similar versions about the facts concerning Twitchell s fictional account
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 8, 2012
                        Hello Etznab and All,
                        Yes, as you've pointed
                        out (below) both Marman
                        and Klemp have similar
                        versions about the "facts"
                        concerning Twitchell's
                        fictional account of meeting
                        Rebazar Tarzs. Too bad
                        they overlooked Twitchell's
                        version, and the timeline
                        conflict, from his June,
                        1971 interviews which
                        are mentioned in "Difficulties
                        Of Becoming The Living
                        ECK Master":

                        [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]

                        "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                        Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                        1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                        Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                        Singh, who is not the same person at all.

                        "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                        whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                        all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                        more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                        initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                        "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                        just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                        report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                        Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

                        [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                        Harold Klemp - see link]

                        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

                        ********************************

                        Fact: Twitchell was born on Oct. 22, 1908
                        (According to Harold Klemp).

                        Fact: Twitchell states on page 45 of "Difficulties:"
                        "Sudar Singh... He died, I believe, if I'm correct,
                        1937; could have been a year or two off someway
                        there, but it was approximately in that year he
                        passed away. We [Paul and his sister Kay-Dee]
                        stayed there almost a year and were shipped
                        home because our parents were screaming bloody-
                        murder, and then finally they cut our money off
                        and we were forced to return."

                        ME: PT is, basically, saying that at 15 years of
                        age this was his 1st trip to India. More "facts"
                        to prove this are listed later.

                        Fact: Harold Klemp attended and graduated
                        from a private Lutheran all boys school and
                        seminary.

                        Fact: Twitchell states on page 47 of "Difficulties"
                        "... the same thing occurs in the seminaries of
                        the Christian church. These Christian seminaries,
                        when you're training boys to grow up, they are
                        looking for all the things which will explain to
                        them manhood or the problems of life. It can
                        create sexual aberrations... you can walk around
                        the corner of one of the ashrams or the monasteries
                        and find the boys there abusing themselves." (pg 47)

                        ME: It's possible, according to Twitchell, that
                        this "abuse" contributed to Klemp's mental
                        break-down circa 1969-70.

                        Fact: Twitchell states on page 48 of "Difficulties:"
                        "After I had left India, came home, I was then about
                        sixteen, I had a year or so to do some work in order
                        to finish my degree."

                        ME: PT Born 1908, plus, age 15 equals 1923.

                        Fact: Twitchell states on page 70 of "Difficulties:"
                        "Well, anyway, in about 1947, it was right shortly
                        after the Indians nation, India received their freedom
                        from England and then became a nation, and they
                        had the great riots and that was over with. I went
                        over to Darjeeling in the east section of India.
                        Darjeeling is up in the northeast of India, right on
                        the Sikkim border.... I went up there at the time
                        after being over in Allahabad, and there wasn't
                        much left there after Sudar Singh had passed away."

                        FYI: [Actually PT changed Kirpal Singh's name to
                        Sudar Singh, and Kirpal died two years after Paul
                        in 1973]

                        PT: "But then I went there and I'd been told
                        that I would find the ECK Master Rebazar Tarzs.
                        I've got something about that in one of my books,
                        I think it's Introduction to ECK in which I have it...
                        I stayed there for quite some time with him, six
                        to seven months... Now, he initiated me there.
                        I had already been initiated by Sudar Singh, the
                        same as everybody else, the second initiation.
                        And then I got the third and the fourth. I went
                        up through about the seventh at this particular
                        time.

                        Then he moved across over into Kashmir,
                        up in the Hindu Kush Mountains, and later
                        [1951] but not on this trip, I followed him
                        up there and got the finish of my initiations."
                        [page 71]


                        Timeline of Facts:

                        1923 - PT claims that he and his sister met
                        Sudar in Paris and traveled with him to India.
                        This was PT's 1st trip to India at age 15 and
                        received his 1st and 2nd initiations from Sudar
                        Singh.

                        1935 - Harold Klemp (on Eckankar.org) states
                        that Twitchell, at age 27, was "exaggerating"
                        and "twisting facts" to get into "Who's Who in
                        Kentucky," and that Twitchell had never traveled
                        all that far from home.

                        1947 - PT claims he had his 2nd trip to India
                        (at age 35) and received his 3rd-7th initiations
                        from Rebazar while staying with him for six
                        to seven months.

                        1951 - PT claims he went back to India (his
                        3rd trip at age 39) and received the "finish"
                        of his initiations from Rebazar Tarzs.

                        Did Twitchell "finish" with a 9th or a 12th
                        initiation in 1951?

                        Fact: In any case, the 14th Mahanta was never
                        mentioned by Twitchell until January 1969.

                        Fact: Harold Klemp states on eckankar.org
                        that at age 27 (1935) that Twitchell was
                        "exaggerating" and "twisting facts" to get
                        into Who's Who in Kentucky and that PT
                        had never traveled all that far from home
                        as he was claiming.

                        Factual Conclusion:

                        Twitchell lied about going to India to
                        meet Sudar Singh at age 15, plus, he
                        lied about this in 1971 as the "Mahanta"
                        just months before his untimely death.

                        And, PT continued the lie with the story
                        of meeting Rebazar in 1947. He connected
                        that lie to the one about getting his 1st
                        and 2nd initiations from Sudar, in India,
                        at the age of 15.

                        Thus, the story about meeting Rebazar,
                        again, on a third visit, circa 1951, to
                        "finish" his initiations is also a fabrication
                        of truth! Paul couldn't help himself. PT
                        was a habitual liar and a narcissist, and
                        for Klemp to point that out just shows
                        that HK was not only ignorant of the
                        timeline, but isn't all that capable/aware
                        of connecting the dots.

                        Plus, after Twitchell, supposedly,
                        received the "finish" of his initiations,
                        in 1951, it took until 1969 [18 years!]
                        for Twitchell to mention the "Mahanta"
                        for the first time in an ECK publication.
                        This is more proof that Twitchell created
                        the Mahanta just as he created Rebazar
                        and the other ECK Masters... it's all
                        a big fat lie! Even the Sant Mat crap
                        that Twitchell copied and tweaked
                        is a false teaching.

                        These facts are the main reason this
                        book, "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                        Living ECK Master" will never ever be
                        reprinted.... without heavy handed
                        reediting.

                        Prometheus


                        etznab@... wrote:
                        >
                        > What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug
                        > Marman's use of the word "facts".
                        >
                        > In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my questions
                        > about Rebazar Tarzs on a.r.e. - it seemed to me that in some respects
                        > "facts" were somehow "secondary" to spiritual experience.
                        >
                        > I thoiught about the a.r.e. thread last night trying to fathom what
                        > Doug was saying about Paul's stories and things said (some of them) not
                        > based on facts. And frankly, it still didn't jive with me. Off hand I
                        > can remember at least two places where Paul Twitchell illustrated that
                        > Rebazar Tarzs "told him" what to write. In one place (I believe)
                        > Rebazar Tarzs comes to Paul's room, wakes him up, tells him to take up
                        > the pencil and write. (I'm referring to Dialogues With The Master and
                        > The Far Country.) So how can Doug suggest those were Paul's words based
                        > on a spiritual experience?
                        > Paul wrote (in so many words) that Rebazar Tarzs came and materialized
                        > in his room, and in one instance (I believe) the mattress sank from the
                        > weight of R.T. sitting on it.
                        >
                        > It would be nice if everybody didn't go away, all those Eckists on the
                        > newsgroups, and if the string of dialogues could continue today. I say
                        > this because there is a lot more information and examples available to
                        > share where many of "Paul's words" read as plagiarized from various
                        > books by other authors - none of them by the name of Rebazar Tarzs, or
                        > other Eck masters.
                        >
                        > ***
                        >
                        > "They" didn't succeed at booting me from a.r.e., and I didn't "move on"
                        > as once suggested. To the contrary I continued to research the FACTS -
                        > whether anybody likeed it or not - and have reams of examples (which
                        > can be illustrated and verified by REAL evidence and FACTS) about many
                        > of the things people were chewing on and debating over for years before
                        > I arrived. Some of the examples I (and others) have since found are
                        > those that not even David Lane was aware of (I'm talking about examples
                        > of Paul's writings compared with other authors) and I think probably
                        > that Doug Marman was unaware of.
                        >
                        > So new information has come in since the D.L. / D.M. debates, etc. New
                        > FACTS are now known. How facts can be important in one instance and
                        > something else in another ... I am not sure what Doug was talking
                        > about.
                        >
                        > I recall from the newspapers that sometimes when something happens that
                        > embarrasses the government and people want to know who is responsible -
                        > such as torture of prisoners, etc. - those higher up in the ladder
                        > have responded with things like: The first time I heard about it was
                        > from the news / newspaper. Iow, people claim ignorance and that they
                        > didn't know about something until it became public via the news. Well,
                        > to admit otherwise - and that they did know about it (and for a long
                        > time) - would be damning to them and public opinion would have them on
                        > a spike!
                        >
                        > Now I recall that (for some reason) Harold Klemp doesn't use the
                        > Internet. I'm sure he reads the newspapers and watches the news, but
                        > how much about the trove of FACTS regarding Paul's writings compared
                        > with other authors - INCLUDING REBAZAR TARZS - is in the newspapers, or
                        > on the evening news? (Maybe it should be?) Much of the new information
                        > and research has been put on the Internet. That's where it is (also in
                        > some books). And even there, we've probably all seen how apologists can
                        > argue against certain information being true, try to marginalize people
                        > and their research, even to the extent of suggesting (in so many words)
                        > that facts don't matter. Or, it's not about facts.
                        >
                        > Well, I've seen where it looks like people want to have it both ways.
                        > Facts matter. Facts don't matter. As far as research goes, and besides
                        > the stories of "spiritual experiences" that people send in, When was
                        > the last time the Eckankar website posted something about people doing
                        > real research into the stories told by Paul Twitchell? (Not to mention
                        > "research" about the stories sent in by Eckists today?) It was 1984
                        > when Harold came out with all that stuff about Paul Twitchell and when
                        > Harold did research. I wonder if they continue to research, or if (for
                        > some reason) it stopped a long time ago?
                        >
                        > Oh yeah, I remember it now.
                        >
                        > "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
                        > researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
                        > turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to say
                        > that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I [Doug
                        > Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the records.
                        > Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past, which
                        > Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough study.
                        > Â Â
                        > "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
                        > about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
                        > further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and worked
                        > for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early days.
                        > So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [....] A few
                        > months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
                        > began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
                        > share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
                        > anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
                        > unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
                        > see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [....]"
                        >
                        > [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
                        >
                        > "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                        > Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                        > 1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                        > Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                        > Singh, who is not the same person at all.
                        > "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                        > whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                        > all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                        > more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                        > initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                        > "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                        > just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                        > report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                        > Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."
                        >
                        > [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                        > Harold Klemp - see link]
                        >
                        > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training
                        >
                        > They got reports? Hmm ... then maybe I should send in a report? :)
                        >
                        > I could give other examples where it looks like Eckankar is interested
                        > in stories from other people, including what people found by research.
                        > Apparently though, the LEM. isn't going to simply look at the Eck-Vidya
                        > and share answers to all of the questions people have. At the same time
                        > though, it looks like people pick and choose from all the information
                        > only what "THEY WANT" the facts to be and put the rest under the rug.
                        >
                        > If one disregards the reported facts written by Paul Twitchell
                        > concerning his meetings, encounters, and relationships with Eck Masters
                        > then where does it leave you? In Never Never Land with Peter Pan and
                        > Tinker Bell, etc.? (Hey look! He's playing a flute!)
                        >
                        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverland
                        >
                        > Are "spiritual experiences", the "stories" (and the stories that people
                        > send in) somehow more REAL than factual accounts which can be
                        > researched and verified? Or, Are "spiritual experiences" sometimes used
                        > as a label for anything a person wants to be true? Iow, does the land
                        > of make believe trump the actual facts? This is what it comes down to,
                        > IMO.
                      • Janice Pfeiffer
                        Thank you etznab for clarifying.  ... From: etznab18 Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited) To:
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 9, 2012
                          Thank you etznab for clarifying. 

                          --- On Sun, 5/6/12, etznab18 <etznab@...> wrote:

                          From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, May 6, 2012, 2:50 AM

                           
                          "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                          Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

                          To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

                          (1)

                          Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                          [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

                          The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                          So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                          It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

                          http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                          (2)

                          July 2001:

                          "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

                          Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                          http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                          (3)

                          July 2003:

                          Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                          What are your on that stuff ?
                          I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                          As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
                          It's all a matter of perspective.
                          I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
                          On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                          http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                          (4) February 2004:

                          "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                          http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                          (5)

                          March 2007:

                          [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
                          Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                          I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                          So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
                          I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                          These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                          In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                          http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Prometheus,
                          >  
                          > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
                          >  
                          > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
                          >  
                          > Thanks
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                          > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Hello Janice and All,
                          > Interesting. I think I'll
                          > share some comments
                          > to your insights below.
                          >
                          > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                          > "Prometheus,
                          >
                          > Now that is very interesting.
                          >
                          > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                          >
                          > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                          >
                          > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                          >
                          > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                          >
                          > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                          > many of us have had similar
                          > experiences of being attacked
                          > by negative entities and having
                          > to defend ourselves. In this case
                          > your RESA was, also, one of these
                          > negative beings. Too bad you
                          > couldn't protect yourself from
                          > them, but it's deceptive when
                          > one has placed trust in a RESA
                          > by assuming they are always
                          > positive and always on your side.
                          > They are as closed minded and
                          > defensive as is any religionist
                          > when protecting their dogma
                          > from too much scrutiny.
                          >
                          > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
                          >
                          > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                          > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                          > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                          > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                          > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                          > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                          > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                          > meditation/contemplation one will change
                          > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                          > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                          > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                          > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                          > when attention is placed upon these
                          > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                          > and every other conman knew and uses
                          > and what Klemp continues to use as
                          > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                          > the magician uses while the viewer's
                          > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                          >
                          >
                          > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
                          >
                          > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                          > are real. It could very well be that demons
                          > are metaphors for those things that bother
                          > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                          > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                          > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                          > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                          > have problems since they tend to pick and
                          > choose what is easy for them to believe
                          > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                          > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                          > narrow, terms.
                          >
                          >
                          > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                          > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
                          >
                          > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                          > He had the by-laws changed
                          > after he took over from D.G.
                          > and neither the President nor
                          > the EK Board has any voting
                          > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                          > and fire. The local Satsang
                          > Societies and local Boards have
                          > been set up the same (As Above).
                          > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                          > fire the local Presidents and
                          > Board members and the votes
                          > of Board members carry no
                          > authority! The RESA has the
                          > sole authority, unless, a higher
                          > authority at the ESC steps in.
                          > However, when this is done
                          > it is always with the approval
                          > of Klemp and under his direction.
                          >
                          >
                          > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
                          >
                          > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                          > ECK Master" was the best book written
                          > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                          > There were three interviews done around
                          > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                          > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                          > is that after all of these years he's still
                          > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                          > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                          > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                          > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                          > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                          > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                          > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                          > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                          > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                          > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                          > comments about how he confused things
                          > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                          > could take it easy during the start of
                          > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                          > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                          > accomplish!
                          >
                          > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                          >
                          > ME: I think that we all have to get
                          > over the guilt and shame of being
                          > tricked. Look at all of those who
                          > belong to a religion and donate
                          > time and money in order to get
                          > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                          > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                          > too! People need to believe in
                          > something that can give them
                          > hope and to help them to maintain
                          > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                          > know what people want and need.
                          > Attitude is, also, important but
                          > there's a fine line between being
                          > positive and being delusional.
                          > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                          > where to draw the line and some
                          > of us have more difficulty with
                          > seeing the good versus seeing
                          > the bad. However, I don't think
                          > that seeing the glass half-empty
                          > is always wrong, but it does present
                          > more of a challenge to overcome.
                          >
                          > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                          > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                          >
                          > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                          > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                          > and do a strip tease at an airport
                          > and choose jail or a mental institution
                          > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                          > was a liar up to the moment of his
                          > untimely death and, thus, was not
                          > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                          > him. Besides, many people have
                          > done stupid things when confused
                          > with life and have sought "spiritual
                          > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                          > claim that their mental missteps
                          > and episodes were "spiritual
                          > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                          > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                          > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                          > excuse his mental confusion.
                          > After all, HK's the leader of a
                          > church and has to be above
                          > and beyond reproach. It's a
                          > pretend game where he has
                          > to, partially, buy into the hype
                          > in order to seem authentic.
                          >
                          > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
                          >
                          > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                          > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                          > as long as they don't know who I am.
                          > That could/would change I'm sure.
                          > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                          > and I could understand that, however,
                          > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                          > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                          > not due to Eckankar or because of
                          > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                          > That crap just gets in the way and
                          > causes more codependency. Any
                          > growth or realization leading to
                          > an expanded awareness is learned
                          > and earned by the individual. It's
                          > their own personal and private
                          > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                          > whatever one wants to call this
                          > divine essence, or not, that leads
                          > to a divine knowingness and to
                          > contentment!
                          >
                          > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
                          >
                          > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                          > while knowing about the deceptions
                          > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                          > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                          > why throw the baby out with the
                          > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                          > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                          > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                          > works why complain? H.I.s have
                          > put blinders on in order to stay
                          > the course and maintain their
                          > prestigious positions which took
                          > them decades of time and money
                          > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                          > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                          > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                          > that did the same... picked and
                          > chose what they wanted to follow
                          > and believe. However, that's not
                          > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                          > work. One is supposed to take
                          > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                          > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                          > only the best from all of the other
                          > religions and experts, etc. in order
                          > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                          > dogma to the modern Western
                          > world. Thus, how can one pick
                          > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                          > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                          > following the guidance and the will
                          > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                          > they are heretics!
                          >
                          > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                          >
                          > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                          > Humans are social animals
                          > and most like to follow in
                          > one way or another because
                          > it's easier to follow than to
                          > lead. Being a follower requires
                          > less thought and energy. It's
                          > less demanding, less consuming,
                          > and is less stressful. It is true
                          > that the Higher one is with
                          > initiations, years, and titles
                          > the more lost that individual
                          > is. They've bought into it
                          > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                          > Klemp! However, the ones
                          > to really feel sorry for are those
                          > ESC staffers who know it's all
                          > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                          > but they have to put on an act
                          > in order to keep their jobs,
                          > health care, retirement, etc.
                          >
                          >
                          > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                          >
                          > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                          > friend of Klemp's who's an
                          > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                          > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                          > out there that have overlooked
                          > many facts and are based upon
                          > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                          > however, is that Doug's stated
                          > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                          > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                          > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                          > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                          > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                          > After all, PT needed to have
                          > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                          > his real master, initiate him.
                          > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                          > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                          > has admitted that Twitchell
                          > created the Mahanta title in
                          > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                          > omits all of this information
                          > in his books!
                          >
                          > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
                          >
                          > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                          >
                          > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
                          >
                          > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                          > It was interesting for me to
                          > comment.
                          >
                          >
                          > prometheus wrote:
                          >
                          > This is an entertaining approach.
                          >
                          > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                          >
                          > Prometheus
                          >

                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello All, What I found interesting is that Klemp mentions Kirpal s name 15 times and Sudar s name 4 times. Just check the Twitchell info on Eckankar.org and
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 9, 2012
                            Hello All,
                            What I found interesting
                            is that Klemp mentions
                            Kirpal's name 15 times
                            and Sudar's name 4 times.

                            Just check the Twitchell
                            info on Eckankar.org and
                            count it up for yourselves.
                            HK mentions that Twit had
                            a falling out with Kirpal
                            (for some unknown reason)
                            and that Kirpal had possession
                            of Paul's "The Tiger's Fang"
                            manuscript which he, later,
                            returned circa June, 1966.

                            The "falling out" was because
                            Paul had "exaggerated" and
                            "twisted facts" as Klemp states
                            Twit had done at age 27 (1935)
                            to get into Who's Who in Kentucky.

                            Even though the Tiger's Fang
                            story made Kirpal (aka Rebazar,
                            et al.) appear to be a great master,
                            it also made Paul look like a
                            Master as well. PT was using
                            Kirpal to self-promote himself
                            and Kirpal was aware of Paul's
                            scam to place himself on a
                            plane of consciousness near
                            Kirpal's!

                            Think about this. Would Klemp
                            allow similar stories to be published
                            in EK Newsletters that would
                            place low level EKists on these
                            Higher Planes? Never! Klemp
                            would see it as a challenge to
                            his authority just as Kirpal did.

                            It's obvious that Kirpal Singh
                            was Paul's true master and
                            not Sudar Singh.

                            What's this mean?

                            Well, it means that Paul
                            lied and there are EK books
                            that perpetuate this same
                            lie.

                            It also means that Sudar
                            never existed. Thus, Paul
                            was never initiated by Sudar
                            into ECKankar. If anything,
                            Paul was initiated into Radhasoami
                            by Kirpal Singh (btw- Radhasoami
                            is a sect of Ruhani Satsang).

                            And, this means that Eckankar
                            is, actually, a sect of the sect
                            of Radhasoami. Look at the
                            dogma! Eckankar's is practically
                            identical to Radhasoami and
                            to Ruhani Satsang. Sects, basically,
                            follow the same dogma of the
                            original teaching but tend
                            to do some tweaking due to
                            a falling out regarding leadership.

                            Regardless of tapes that Twit
                            made, after-the-fact and about
                            fake masters like Rebazar, we
                            still have the June, 1971 interviews
                            that Twit did for "Difficulties
                            Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."

                            What Paul lied about in June 1971
                            as the "Full" Mahanta (created in 1969)
                            is more important than what he said
                            earlier.

                            Plus, we have the Timelines which
                            show more of PT's lies.

                            And, we have Klemp, on Eckankar.org,
                            stating that Kirpal Singh had possession
                            of PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript.
                            This was a manuscript... not a book!

                            Plus, we have Klemp stating that
                            Twitchell was a liar who "exaggerated"
                            and "twisted facts" along with several
                            on-going comments about Paul being
                            a (somewhat shameless) self-promoter.

                            The sum of these facts make it
                            almost impossible for any objective
                            person Not to be able to see the
                            truth and connect-the-dots and
                            know, without a reasonable doubt,
                            that Twitchell was a fake master,
                            plagiarist, and a conman.

                            Prometheus


                            Janice wrote:

                            Thank you etznab for clarifying.

                            Etznab wrote:

                            "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                            Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

                            To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

                            (1)

                            Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                            [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

                            The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                            So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                            It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

                            http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                            (2)

                            July 2001:

                            "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

                            Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                            http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                            (3)

                            July 2003:

                            Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                            What are your on that stuff ?
                            I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                            As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
                            It's all a matter of perspective.
                            I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
                            On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                            http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                            (4) February 2004:

                            "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                            http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                            (5)

                            March 2007:

                            [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
                            Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                            I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                            So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
                            I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                            These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                            In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                            http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Prometheus,
                            > Â
                            > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank you for being such a wise soul.
                            > Â
                            > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? The circus of eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization. It appears like a house of cards. Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event. Any ideas?
                            > Â
                            > Thanks
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Â
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello Janice and All,
                            > Interesting. I think I'll
                            > share some comments
                            > to your insights below.
                            >
                            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            > "Prometheus,
                            >
                            > Now that is very interesting.
                            >
                            > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                            >
                            > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                            >
                            > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                            >
                            > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                            >
                            > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                            > many of us have had similar
                            > experiences of being attacked
                            > by negative entities and having
                            > to defend ourselves. In this case
                            > your RESA was, also, one of these
                            > negative beings. Too bad you
                            > couldn't protect yourself from
                            > them, but it's deceptive when
                            > one has placed trust in a RESA
                            > by assuming they are always
                            > positive and always on your side.
                            > They are as closed minded and
                            > defensive as is any religionist
                            > when protecting their dogma
                            > from too much scrutiny.
                            >
                            > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
                            >
                            > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                            > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                            > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                            > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                            > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                            > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                            > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                            > meditation/contemplation one will change
                            > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                            > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                            > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                            > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                            > when attention is placed upon these
                            > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                            > and every other conman knew and uses
                            > and what Klemp continues to use as
                            > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                            > the magician uses while the viewer's
                            > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                            >
                            >
                            > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
                            >
                            > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                            > are real. It could very well be that demons
                            > are metaphors for those things that bother
                            > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                            > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                            > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                            > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                            > have problems since they tend to pick and
                            > choose what is easy for them to believe
                            > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                            > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                            > narrow, terms.
                            >
                            >
                            > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                            > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
                            >
                            > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                            > He had the by-laws changed
                            > after he took over from D.G.
                            > and neither the President nor
                            > the EK Board has any voting
                            > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                            > and fire. The local Satsang
                            > Societies and local Boards have
                            > been set up the same (As Above).
                            > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                            > fire the local Presidents and
                            > Board members and the votes
                            > of Board members carry no
                            > authority! The RESA has the
                            > sole authority, unless, a higher
                            > authority at the ESC steps in.
                            > However, when this is done
                            > it is always with the approval
                            > of Klemp and under his direction.
                            >
                            >
                            > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
                            >
                            > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                            > ECK Master" was the best book written
                            > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                            > There were three interviews done around
                            > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                            > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                            > is that after all of these years he's still
                            > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                            > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                            > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                            > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                            > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                            > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                            > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                            > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                            > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                            > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                            > comments about how he confused things
                            > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                            > could take it easy during the start of
                            > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                            > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                            > accomplish!
                            >
                            > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                            >
                            > ME: I think that we all have to get
                            > over the guilt and shame of being
                            > tricked. Look at all of those who
                            > belong to a religion and donate
                            > time and money in order to get
                            > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                            > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                            > too! People need to believe in
                            > something that can give them
                            > hope and to help them to maintain
                            > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                            > know what people want and need.
                            > Attitude is, also, important but
                            > there's a fine line between being
                            > positive and being delusional.
                            > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                            > where to draw the line and some
                            > of us have more difficulty with
                            > seeing the good versus seeing
                            > the bad. However, I don't think
                            > that seeing the glass half-empty
                            > is always wrong, but it does present
                            > more of a challenge to overcome.
                            >
                            > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                            > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                            >
                            > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                            > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                            > and do a strip tease at an airport
                            > and choose jail or a mental institution
                            > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                            > was a liar up to the moment of his
                            > untimely death and, thus, was not
                            > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                            > him. Besides, many people have
                            > done stupid things when confused
                            > with life and have sought "spiritual
                            > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                            > claim that their mental missteps
                            > and episodes were "spiritual
                            > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                            > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                            > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                            > excuse his mental confusion.
                            > After all, HK's the leader of a
                            > church and has to be above
                            > and beyond reproach. It's a
                            > pretend game where he has
                            > to, partially, buy into the hype
                            > in order to seem authentic.
                            >
                            > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
                            >
                            > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                            > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                            > as long as they don't know who I am.
                            > That could/would change I'm sure.
                            > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                            > and I could understand that, however,
                            > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                            > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                            > not due to Eckankar or because of
                            > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                            > That crap just gets in the way and
                            > causes more codependency. Any
                            > growth or realization leading to
                            > an expanded awareness is learned
                            > and earned by the individual. It's
                            > their own personal and private
                            > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                            > whatever one wants to call this
                            > divine essence, or not, that leads
                            > to a divine knowingness and to
                            > contentment!
                            >
                            > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
                            >
                            > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                            > while knowing about the deceptions
                            > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                            > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                            > why throw the baby out with the
                            > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                            > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                            > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                            > works why complain? H.I.s have
                            > put blinders on in order to stay
                            > the course and maintain their
                            > prestigious positions which took
                            > them decades of time and money
                            > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                            > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                            > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                            > that did the same... picked and
                            > chose what they wanted to follow
                            > and believe. However, that's not
                            > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                            > work. One is supposed to take
                            > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                            > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                            > only the best from all of the other
                            > religions and experts, etc. in order
                            > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                            > dogma to the modern Western
                            > world. Thus, how can one pick
                            > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                            > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                            > following the guidance and the will
                            > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                            > they are heretics!
                            >
                            > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                            >
                            > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                            > Humans are social animals
                            > and most like to follow in
                            > one way or another because
                            > it's easier to follow than to
                            > lead. Being a follower requires
                            > less thought and energy. It's
                            > less demanding, less consuming,
                            > and is less stressful. It is true
                            > that the Higher one is with
                            > initiations, years, and titles
                            > the more lost that individual
                            > is. They've bought into it
                            > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                            > Klemp! However, the ones
                            > to really feel sorry for are those
                            > ESC staffers who know it's all
                            > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                            > but they have to put on an act
                            > in order to keep their jobs,
                            > health care, retirement, etc.
                            >
                            >
                            > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                            >
                            > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                            > friend of Klemp's who's an
                            > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                            > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                            > out there that have overlooked
                            > many facts and are based upon
                            > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                            > however, is that Doug's stated
                            > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                            > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                            > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                            > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                            > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                            > After all, PT needed to have
                            > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                            > his real master, initiate him.
                            > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                            > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                            > has admitted that Twitchell
                            > created the Mahanta title in
                            > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                            > omits all of this information
                            > in his books!
                            >
                            > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
                            >
                            > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                            >
                            > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
                            >
                            > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                            > It was interesting for me to
                            > comment.
                            >
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > This is an entertaining approach.
                            >
                            > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            Nice post there. Lots of good points. Thanks. ... From: prometheus_973 To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 10, 2012
                              Nice post there. Lots of good points. Thanks.

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wed, May 9, 2012 12:48 pm
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                              (Revisited)

                               
                              Hello All,
                              What I found interesting
                              is that Klemp mentions
                              Kirpal's name 15 times
                              and Sudar's name 4 times.

                              Just check the Twitchell
                              info on Eckankar.org and
                              count it up for yourselves.
                              HK mentions that Twit had
                              a falling out with Kirpal
                              (for some unknown reason)
                              and that Kirpal had possession
                              of Paul's "The Tiger's Fang"
                              manuscript which he, later,
                              returned circa June, 1966.

                              The "falling out" was because
                              Paul had "exaggerated" and
                              "twisted facts" as Klemp states
                              Twit had done at age 27 (1935)
                              to get into Who's Who in Kentucky.

                              Even though the Tiger's Fang
                              story made Kirpal (aka Rebazar,
                              et al.) appear to be a great master,
                              it also made Paul look like a
                              Master as well. PT was using
                              Kirpal to self-promote himself
                              and Kirpal was aware of Paul's
                              scam to place himself on a
                              plane of consciousness near
                              Kirpal's!

                              Think about this. Would Klemp
                              allow similar stories to be published
                              in EK Newsletters that would
                              place low level EKists on these
                              Higher Planes? Never! Klemp
                              would see it as a challenge to
                              his authority just as Kirpal did.

                              It's obvious that Kirpal Singh
                              was Paul's true master and
                              not Sudar Singh.

                              What's this mean?

                              Well, it means that Paul
                              lied and there are EK books
                              that perpetuate this same
                              lie.

                              It also means that Sudar
                              never existed. Thus, Paul
                              was never initiated by Sudar
                              into ECKankar. If anything,
                              Paul was initiated into Radhasoami
                              by Kirpal Singh (btw- Radhasoami
                              is a sect of Ruhani Satsang).

                              And, this means that Eckankar
                              is, actually, a sect of the sect
                              of Radhasoami. Look at the
                              dogma! Eckankar's is practically
                              identical to Radhasoami and
                              to Ruhani Satsang. Sects, basically,
                              follow the same dogma of the
                              original teaching but tend
                              to do some tweaking due to
                              a falling out regarding leadership.

                              Regardless of tapes that Twit
                              made, after-the-fact and about
                              fake masters like Rebazar, we
                              still have the June, 1971 interviews
                              that Twit did for "Difficulties
                              Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."

                              What Paul lied about in June 1971
                              as the "Full" Mahanta (created in 1969)
                              is more important than what he said
                              earlier.

                              Plus, we have the Timelines which
                              show more of PT's lies.

                              And, we have Klemp, on Eckankar.org,
                              stating that Kirpal Singh had possession
                              of PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript.
                              This was a manuscript... not a book!

                              Plus, we have Klemp stating that
                              Twitchell was a liar who "exaggerated"
                              and "twisted facts" along with several
                              on-going comments about Paul being
                              a (somewhat shameless) self-promoter.

                              The sum of these facts make it
                              almost impossible for any objective
                              person Not to be able to see the
                              truth and connect-the-dots and
                              know, without a reasonable doubt,
                              that Twitchell was a fake master,
                              plagiarist, and a conman.

                              Prometheus

                              Janice wrote:

                              Thank you etznab for clarifying.

                              Etznab wrote:

                              "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                              admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                              Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for
                              complete context.)

                              To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is
                              still a long post though.

                              (1)

                              Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                              [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
                              self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day
                              I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in
                              the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his
                              home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was
                              trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The
                              Master.

                              The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs.
                              Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying
                              something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the
                              voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from
                              Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember
                              much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could
                              hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                              So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard
                              anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me
                              that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told
                              Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I
                              was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I
                              immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                              It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a
                              deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire
                              to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused,
                              as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is
                              never any reason to rush." [... .]

                              http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                              (2)

                              July 2001:

                              "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT
                              my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David
                              Lane?]

                              Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't
                              David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought
                              that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's
                              Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but
                              was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967.
                              [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                              http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                              (3)

                              July 2003:

                              Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos
                              most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or
                              insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to
                              have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and
                              perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                              What are your on that stuff ?
                              I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the
                              fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual
                              dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different
                              picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from
                              other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                              As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look
                              back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with
                              Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to
                              leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I
                              took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the
                              new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are
                              almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I
                              was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a
                              spin-off.
                              It's all a matter of perspective.
                              I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously
                              liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even
                              used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country.
                              However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal
                              Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected
                              his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far
                              Country far differently.
                              On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he
                              wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's
                              books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a
                              serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure
                              Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                              http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                              (4) February 2004:

                              "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I
                              guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use
                              other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck
                              Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                              http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                              (5)

                              March 2007:

                              [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's
                              book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual
                              account?
                              Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is
                              he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                              I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By
                              The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works,
                              but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                              So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar
                              work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow
                              you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it
                              becomes a trust issue for them.
                              I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was
                              much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing
                              spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                              These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So,
                              I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he
                              was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                              In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book,
                              to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it
                              was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was
                              he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing
                              spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works
                              in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                              http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                              <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Prometheus,
                              > Â
                              > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It
                              gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank
                              you for being such a wise soul.
                              > Â
                              > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                              admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and
                              why? The circus of eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear
                              from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand
                              as an organization. It appears like a house of cards. Do you
                              think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you
                              think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their
                              membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.Â
                              Any ideas?
                              > Â
                              > Thanks
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of
                              ECKankar (Revisited)
                              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Â
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hello Janice and All,
                              > Interesting. I think I'll
                              > share some comments
                              > to your insights below.
                              >
                              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              > "Prometheus,
                              >
                              > Now that is very interesting.
                              >
                              > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or
                              so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't
                              falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of
                              energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one
                              night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember
                              later. I know it started with a P.
                              >
                              > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind
                              and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but
                              I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp.
                              It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an
                              ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood
                              gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my
                              dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                              >
                              > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar
                              as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the
                              dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my
                              favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found
                              it very confusing to have these dreams.
                              >
                              > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long
                              term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions
                              that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck
                              teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was
                              true beauty in the teachings."
                              >
                              > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                              > many of us have had similar
                              > experiences of being attacked
                              > by negative entities and having
                              > to defend ourselves. In this case
                              > your RESA was, also, one of these
                              > negative beings. Too bad you
                              > couldn't protect yourself from
                              > them, but it's deceptive when
                              > one has placed trust in a RESA
                              > by assuming they are always
                              > positive and always on your side.
                              > They are as closed minded and
                              > defensive as is any religionist
                              > when protecting their dogma
                              > from too much scrutiny.
                              >
                              > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how
                              it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading
                              all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another
                              year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack
                              seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of
                              eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive
                              thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I
                              wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to
                              them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many
                              occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be
                              respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories
                              about the personal lives of other eckist."
                              >
                              > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                              > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                              > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                              > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                              > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                              > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                              > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                              > meditation/contemplation one will change
                              > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                              > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                              > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                              > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                              > when attention is placed upon these
                              > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                              > and every other conman knew and uses
                              > and what Klemp continues to use as
                              > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                              > the magician uses while the viewer's
                              > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                              >
                              >
                              > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind
                              eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with
                              demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have
                              always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or
                              demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say,
                              I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't
                              have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious
                              hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature
                              of eckankar."
                              >
                              > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                              > are real. It could very well be that demons
                              > are metaphors for those things that bother
                              > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                              > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                              > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                              > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                              > have problems since they tend to pick and
                              > choose what is easy for them to believe
                              > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                              > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                              > narrow, terms.
                              >
                              >
                              > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master
                              and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet
                              for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                              > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my
                              biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the
                              mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly
                              looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't
                              charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability
                              that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources
                              outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to
                              me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck
                              master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds
                              making up corporate eckankar."
                              >
                              > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                              > He had the by-laws changed
                              > after he took over from D.G.
                              > and neither the President nor
                              > the EK Board has any voting
                              > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                              > and fire. The local Satsang
                              > Societies and local Boards have
                              > been set up the same (As Above).
                              > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                              > fire the local Presidents and
                              > Board members and the votes
                              > of Board members carry no
                              > authority! The RESA has the
                              > sole authority, unless, a higher
                              > authority at the ESC steps in.
                              > However, when this is done
                              > it is always with the approval
                              > of Klemp and under his direction.
                              >
                              >
                              > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by
                              twitchell and others that the average person would think is not
                              spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great
                              power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been
                              removed from print."
                              >
                              > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                              > ECK Master" was the best book written
                              > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                              > There were three interviews done around
                              > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                              > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                              > is that after all of these years he's still
                              > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                              > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                              > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                              > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                              > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                              > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                              > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                              > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                              > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                              > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                              > comments about how he confused things
                              > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                              > could take it easy during the start of
                              > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                              > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                              > accomplish!
                              >
                              > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it
                              so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little
                              bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more
                              knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about
                              demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking
                              the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in
                              recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am
                              thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did
                              not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway.
                              Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am
                              ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think
                              most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                              >
                              > ME: I think that we all have to get
                              > over the guilt and shame of being
                              > tricked. Look at all of those who
                              > belong to a religion and donate
                              > time and money in order to get
                              > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                              > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                              > too! People need to believe in
                              > something that can give them
                              > hope and to help them to maintain
                              > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                              > know what people want and need.
                              > Attitude is, also, important but
                              > there's a fine line between being
                              > positive and being delusional.
                              > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                              > where to draw the line and some
                              > of us have more difficulty with
                              > seeing the good versus seeing
                              > the bad. However, I don't think
                              > that seeing the glass half-empty
                              > is always wrong, but it does present
                              > more of a challenge to overcome.
                              >
                              > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't
                              healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems.
                              Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot.
                              Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe
                              mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't
                              this great living eck master help them over come these things or at
                              least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck
                              master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is
                              necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp
                              describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with
                              a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in
                              public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed
                              the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was
                              woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                              > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in
                              twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                              >
                              > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                              > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                              > and do a strip tease at an airport
                              > and choose jail or a mental institution
                              > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                              > was a liar up to the moment of his
                              > untimely death and, thus, was not
                              > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                              > him. Besides, many people have
                              > done stupid things when confused
                              > with life and have sought "spiritual
                              > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                              > claim that their mental missteps
                              > and episodes were "spiritual
                              > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                              > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                              > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                              > excuse his mental confusion.
                              > After all, HK's the leader of a
                              > church and has to be above
                              > and beyond reproach. It's a
                              > pretend game where he has
                              > to, partially, buy into the hype
                              > in order to seem authentic.
                              >
                              > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and
                              who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well
                              adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this
                              article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is
                              possible to grow in eckankar."
                              >
                              > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                              > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                              > as long as they don't know who I am.
                              > That could/would change I'm sure.
                              > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                              > and I could understand that, however,
                              > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                              > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                              > not due to Eckankar or because of
                              > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                              > That crap just gets in the way and
                              > causes more codependency. Any
                              > growth or realization leading to
                              > an expanded awareness is learned
                              > and earned by the individual. It's
                              > their own personal and private
                              > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                              > whatever one wants to call this
                              > divine essence, or not, that leads
                              > to a divine knowingness and to
                              > contentment!
                              >
                              > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings
                              came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several
                              high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply
                              accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that
                              the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed
                              relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can
                              use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings
                              being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which
                              ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth
                              wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as
                              needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this
                              concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be
                              knowingly condoned."
                              >
                              > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                              > while knowing about the deceptions
                              > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                              > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                              > why throw the baby out with the
                              > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                              > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                              > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                              > works why complain? H.I.s have
                              > put blinders on in order to stay
                              > the course and maintain their
                              > prestigious positions which took
                              > them decades of time and money
                              > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                              > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                              > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                              > that did the same... picked and
                              > chose what they wanted to follow
                              > and believe. However, that's not
                              > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                              > work. One is supposed to take
                              > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                              > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                              > only the best from all of the other
                              > religions and experts, etc. in order
                              > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                              > dogma to the modern Western
                              > world. Thus, how can one pick
                              > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                              > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                              > following the guidance and the will
                              > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                              > they are heretics!
                              >
                              > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other
                              than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as
                              greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still
                              wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that
                              eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel
                              for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just
                              remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                              >
                              > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                              > Humans are social animals
                              > and most like to follow in
                              > one way or another because
                              > it's easier to follow than to
                              > lead. Being a follower requires
                              > less thought and energy. It's
                              > less demanding, less consuming,
                              > and is less stressful. It is true
                              > that the Higher one is with
                              > initiations, years, and titles
                              > the more lost that individual
                              > is. They've bought into it
                              > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                              > Klemp! However, the ones
                              > to really feel sorry for are those
                              > ESC staffers who know it's all
                              > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                              > but they have to put on an act
                              > in order to keep their jobs,
                              > health care, retirement, etc.
                              >
                              >
                              > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar
                              with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be
                              appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are
                              these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an
                              eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                              >
                              > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                              > friend of Klemp's who's an
                              > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                              > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                              > out there that have overlooked
                              > many facts and are based upon
                              > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                              > however, is that Doug's stated
                              > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                              > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                              > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                              > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                              > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                              > After all, PT needed to have
                              > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                              > his real master, initiate him.
                              > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                              > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                              > has admitted that Twitchell
                              > created the Mahanta title in
                              > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                              > omits all of this information
                              > in his books!
                              >
                              > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a
                              private person, I felt a need to write it.
                              >
                              > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                              >
                              > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful
                              spiritual experiences."
                              >
                              > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                              > It was interesting for me to
                              > comment.
                              >
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > This is an entertaining approach.
                              >
                              >
                              http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                              >
                              > Prometheus
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