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The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)

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  • prometheus_973
    This is an entertaining approach. http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson Prometheus
    Message 1 of 14 , May 2, 2012
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    • Janice Pfeiffer
      Prometheus,   Now that is very interesting.     I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out.  I believe it
      Message 2 of 14 , May 2, 2012
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        Prometheus,
         
        Now that is very interesting. 
         
         I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out.  I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy.  My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and  I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later.  I know it started with a P.  Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness.  This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake.  The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp.  It was a strong  male voice.  A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed.  In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back.  It did.  Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist.  The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so.  While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character.  He seemed the most spiritual at the time.  I found it very confusing to have these dreams.   I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate.   I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa.  I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist.  I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings.   
         
        And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down.  I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist.  It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person.  I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings.  It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly.  I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions.  Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist.    
         
         I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons.  I am not sure demons are real and separate entities.  I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if  I  read what they have to say, I  dismiss a lot of it.  If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist.   This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar. 
         
         I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good.  I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups.  I really don't s
         see anything really outstanding about klemp at all.  That was my biggest problem with eckankar.  When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man.  He even looked miserable.  I saw no power.  He wasn't charismatic.  He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see.  He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical.  As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar. 
         
         It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual.  I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print. 
         
         I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things.  Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated.  I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me.  They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence.  I wasn't doing that.  I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar.  Well, not that I know of anyway.  Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest.  I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member.  Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used.
         
        Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy.  I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems.  Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot.   Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist.  But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world?    If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being?  Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public?  Not in my opinion anyway.  Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary ordeal?  Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience? 
         
        I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings.  Some appeared to be well adjusted people.  Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving.  Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar. 
         
         I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time.  One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest.  I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep.  Also,  if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed.   Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person.  Lies should not be knowingly condoned.
         
          I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else.  They are under the eckankar spell.  I still wouldn't want contact with them though.  I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them.  It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them.  So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart. 
         
        Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with.  I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated.  Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh?  Are these really old names in eckankar history?    Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article.  The other two appear to be writers. 
         
        Telling my experience wasn't easy for me.  Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it. 
         
        Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus. 
         
        May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences.
         


        --- On Thu, 5/3/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 12:29 AM

      • prometheus_973
        Hello Janice and All, Interesting. I think I ll share some comments to your insights below. Janice Pfeiffer wrote: Prometheus, Now that is very interesting.
        Message 3 of 14 , May 3, 2012
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          Hello Janice and All,
          Interesting. I think I'll
          share some comments
          to your insights below.


          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          "Prometheus,

          Now that is very interesting.

          I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.

          Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.

          Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.

          I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."


          ME (Prometheus): I know that
          many of us have had similar
          experiences of being attacked
          by negative entities and having
          to defend ourselves. In this case
          your RESA was, also, one of these
          negative beings. Too bad you
          couldn't protect yourself from
          them, but it's deceptive when
          one has placed trust in a RESA
          by assuming they are always
          positive and always on your side.
          They are as closed minded and
          defensive as is any religionist
          when protecting their dogma
          from too much scrutiny.


          "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."


          ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
          Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
          ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
          until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
          the catch is that there's a time limit for
          being skeptical. True, when one seeks
          the "Truth" via introspection and uses
          meditation/contemplation one will change
          and see with new eyes, but that's not due
          to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
          tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
          dream and imagine all sorts of things
          when attention is placed upon these
          areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
          and every other conman knew and uses
          and what Klemp continues to use as
          a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
          the magician uses while the viewer's
          attention is distracted elsewhere.


          "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."


          ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
          are real. It could very well be that demons
          are metaphors for those things that bother
          and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
          and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
          all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
          This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
          have problems since they tend to pick and
          choose what is easy for them to believe
          since they tend to be more simple-minded
          and tend to see most everything in literal,
          narrow, terms.


          "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
          see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."


          ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
          He had the by-laws changed
          after he took over from D.G.
          and neither the President nor
          the EK Board has any voting
          authority. Only Klemp can hire
          and fire. The local Satsang
          Societies and local Boards have
          been set up the same (As Above).
          Thus, the RESAs can hire and
          fire the local Presidents and
          Board members and the votes
          of Board members carry no
          authority! The RESA has the
          sole authority, unless, a higher
          authority at the ESC steps in.
          However, when this is done
          it is always with the approval
          of Klemp and under his direction.


          "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."


          ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
          ECK Master" was the best book written
          depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
          There were three interviews done around
          June 1971 while PT was the full blown
          self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
          is that after all of these years he's still
          lying about his past. Klemp has stated
          on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
          and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
          Who's Who and had never traveled all that
          far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
          1971 interview), is saying he was almost
          16 years old when he, first, went from
          Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
          Sudar Singh. There are more examples
          that are even more outlandish. Paul's
          comments about how he confused things
          and screwed up paperwork so that he
          could take it easy during the start of
          WWII showed a level of subversion and
          sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
          accomplish!




          "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."


          ME: I think that we all have to get
          over the guilt and shame of being
          tricked. Look at all of those who
          belong to a religion and donate
          time and money in order to get
          their "feel good" fix. Religions
          are types of opiates... Eckankar
          too! People need to believe in
          something that can give them
          hope and to help them to maintain
          a positive outlook. And, conmen
          know what people want and need.
          Attitude is, also, important but
          there's a fine line between being
          positive and being delusional.
          Sometimes it's difficult to know
          where to draw the line and some
          of us have more difficulty with
          seeing the good versus seeing
          the bad. However, I don't think
          that seeing the glass half-empty
          is always wrong, but it does present
          more of a challenge to overcome.

          "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"


          ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
          ever needed to jump off a bridge
          and do a strip tease at an airport
          and choose jail or a mental institution
          in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
          was a liar up to the moment of his
          untimely death and, thus, was not
          a "spiritual being." It was all about
          him. Besides, many people have
          done stupid things when confused
          with life and have sought "spiritual
          solutions." If one chose to, one could
          claim that their mental missteps
          and episodes were "spiritual
          experiences" as Klemp has done.
          Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
          hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
          excuse his mental confusion.
          After all, HK's the leader of a
          church and has to be above
          and beyond reproach. It's a
          pretend game where he has
          to, partially, buy into the hype
          in order to seem authentic.


          "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."


          ME: I, too, know and remember some
          H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
          as long as they don't know who I am.
          That could/would change I'm sure.
          They would feel betrayed and insulted
          and I could understand that, however,
          that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
          To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
          not due to Eckankar or because of
          inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
          That crap just gets in the way and
          causes more codependency. Any
          growth or realization leading to
          an expanded awareness is learned
          and earned by the individual. It's
          their own personal and private
          relationship to the Holy Spirit or
          whatever one wants to call this
          divine essence, or not, that leads
          to a divine knowingness and to
          contentment!



          "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."


          ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
          while knowing about the deceptions
          and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
          if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
          why throw the baby out with the
          (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
          nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
          of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
          works why complain? H.I.s have
          put blinders on in order to stay
          the course and maintain their
          prestigious positions which took
          them decades of time and money
          to obtain. Many have rejected, in
          part, HK's RESA structure and the
          ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
          that did the same... picked and
          chose what they wanted to follow
          and believe. However, that's not
          the way Eckankar is supposed to
          work. One is supposed to take
          the bait and swallow it hook, line,
          and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
          only the best from all of the other
          religions and experts, etc. in order
          to create (or bring forth) the EK
          dogma to the modern Western
          world. Thus, how can one pick
          and chose when it's all, supposedly,
          relevant? If a person is not consciously
          following the guidance and the will
          of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
          they are heretics!



          "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."


          ME: True! It's nice to belong.
          Humans are social animals
          and most like to follow in
          one way or another because
          it's easier to follow than to
          lead. Being a follower requires
          less thought and energy. It's
          less demanding, less consuming,
          and is less stressful. It is true
          that the Higher one is with
          initiations, years, and titles
          the more lost that individual
          is. They've bought into it
          to the extreme. Look at Marge
          Klemp! However, the ones
          to really feel sorry for are those
          ESC staffers who know it's all
          a sham and Klemp is a poser,
          but they have to put on an act
          in order to keep their jobs,
          health care, retirement, etc.


          "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."


          ME: Doug Marman is an old
          friend of Klemp's who's an
          apologist for Eckankar. I think
          he's a 7th. He's got some books
          out there that have overlooked
          many facts and are based upon
          lies and hearsay. What's funny,
          however, is that Doug's stated
          that Twitchell lied about traveling
          to Paris, France to visit his sister
          when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
          And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
          was probably made up by Twitchell.
          After all, PT needed to have
          someone other than Kirpal Singh,
          his real master, initiate him.
          Thus, PT created RT in order to
          initiate himself. Plus, Marman
          has admitted that Twitchell
          created the Mahanta title in
          January 1969. Yet, Marman
          omits all of this information
          in his books!

          "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.

          Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.

          May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."

          ME: Thanks for sharing this.
          It was interesting for me to
          comment.



          prometheus wrote:


          This is an entertaining approach.

          http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

          Prometheus
        • Janice Pfeiffer
          Prometheus,   You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for
          Message 4 of 14 , May 3, 2012
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            Prometheus,
             
            You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
             
            Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
             
            Thanks



            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM

             
            Hello Janice and All,
            Interesting. I think I'll
            share some comments
            to your insights below.

            Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            "Prometheus,

            Now that is very interesting.

            I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.

            Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.

            Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.

            I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."

            ME (Prometheus): I know that
            many of us have had similar
            experiences of being attacked
            by negative entities and having
            to defend ourselves. In this case
            your RESA was, also, one of these
            negative beings. Too bad you
            couldn't protect yourself from
            them, but it's deceptive when
            one has placed trust in a RESA
            by assuming they are always
            positive and always on your side.
            They are as closed minded and
            defensive as is any religionist
            when protecting their dogma
            from too much scrutiny.

            "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."

            ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
            Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
            ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
            until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
            the catch is that there's a time limit for
            being skeptical. True, when one seeks
            the "Truth" via introspection and uses
            meditation/contemplation one will change
            and see with new eyes, but that's not due
            to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
            tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
            dream and imagine all sorts of things
            when attention is placed upon these
            areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
            and every other conman knew and uses
            and what Klemp continues to use as
            a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
            the magician uses while the viewer's
            attention is distracted elsewhere.


            "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."

            ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
            are real. It could very well be that demons
            are metaphors for those things that bother
            and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
            and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
            all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
            This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
            have problems since they tend to pick and
            choose what is easy for them to believe
            since they tend to be more simple-minded
            and tend to see most everything in literal,
            narrow, terms.


            "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
            see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."

            ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
            He had the by-laws changed
            after he took over from D.G.
            and neither the President nor
            the EK Board has any voting
            authority. Only Klemp can hire
            and fire. The local Satsang
            Societies and local Boards have
            been set up the same (As Above).
            Thus, the RESAs can hire and
            fire the local Presidents and
            Board members and the votes
            of Board members carry no
            authority! The RESA has the
            sole authority, unless, a higher
            authority at the ESC steps in.
            However, when this is done
            it is always with the approval
            of Klemp and under his direction.


            "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."

            ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
            ECK Master" was the best book written
            depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
            There were three interviews done around
            June 1971 while PT was the full blown
            self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
            is that after all of these years he's still
            lying about his past. Klemp has stated
            on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
            and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
            Who's Who and had never traveled all that
            far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
            1971 interview), is saying he was almost
            16 years old when he, first, went from
            Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
            Sudar Singh. There are more examples
            that are even more outlandish. Paul's
            comments about how he confused things
            and screwed up paperwork so that he
            could take it easy during the start of
            WWII showed a level of subversion and
            sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
            accomplish!

            "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."

            ME: I think that we all have to get
            over the guilt and shame of being
            tricked. Look at all of those who
            belong to a religion and donate
            time and money in order to get
            their "feel good" fix. Religions
            are types of opiates... Eckankar
            too! People need to believe in
            something that can give them
            hope and to help them to maintain
            a positive outlook. And, conmen
            know what people want and need.
            Attitude is, also, important but
            there's a fine line between being
            positive and being delusional.
            Sometimes it's difficult to know
            where to draw the line and some
            of us have more difficulty with
            seeing the good versus seeing
            the bad. However, I don't think
            that seeing the glass half-empty
            is always wrong, but it does present
            more of a challenge to overcome.

            "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"

            ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
            ever needed to jump off a bridge
            and do a strip tease at an airport
            and choose jail or a mental institution
            in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
            was a liar up to the moment of his
            untimely death and, thus, was not
            a "spiritual being." It was all about
            him. Besides, many people have
            done stupid things when confused
            with life and have sought "spiritual
            solutions." If one chose to, one could
            claim that their mental missteps
            and episodes were "spiritual
            experiences" as Klemp has done.
            Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
            hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
            excuse his mental confusion.
            After all, HK's the leader of a
            church and has to be above
            and beyond reproach. It's a
            pretend game where he has
            to, partially, buy into the hype
            in order to seem authentic.

            "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."

            ME: I, too, know and remember some
            H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
            as long as they don't know who I am.
            That could/would change I'm sure.
            They would feel betrayed and insulted
            and I could understand that, however,
            that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
            To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
            not due to Eckankar or because of
            inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
            That crap just gets in the way and
            causes more codependency. Any
            growth or realization leading to
            an expanded awareness is learned
            and earned by the individual. It's
            their own personal and private
            relationship to the Holy Spirit or
            whatever one wants to call this
            divine essence, or not, that leads
            to a divine knowingness and to
            contentment!

            "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."

            ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
            while knowing about the deceptions
            and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
            if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
            why throw the baby out with the
            (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
            nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
            of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
            works why complain? H.I.s have
            put blinders on in order to stay
            the course and maintain their
            prestigious positions which took
            them decades of time and money
            to obtain. Many have rejected, in
            part, HK's RESA structure and the
            ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
            that did the same... picked and
            chose what they wanted to follow
            and believe. However, that's not
            the way Eckankar is supposed to
            work. One is supposed to take
            the bait and swallow it hook, line,
            and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
            only the best from all of the other
            religions and experts, etc. in order
            to create (or bring forth) the EK
            dogma to the modern Western
            world. Thus, how can one pick
            and chose when it's all, supposedly,
            relevant? If a person is not consciously
            following the guidance and the will
            of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
            they are heretics!

            "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."

            ME: True! It's nice to belong.
            Humans are social animals
            and most like to follow in
            one way or another because
            it's easier to follow than to
            lead. Being a follower requires
            less thought and energy. It's
            less demanding, less consuming,
            and is less stressful. It is true
            that the Higher one is with
            initiations, years, and titles
            the more lost that individual
            is. They've bought into it
            to the extreme. Look at Marge
            Klemp! However, the ones
            to really feel sorry for are those
            ESC staffers who know it's all
            a sham and Klemp is a poser,
            but they have to put on an act
            in order to keep their jobs,
            health care, retirement, etc.


            "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."

            ME: Doug Marman is an old
            friend of Klemp's who's an
            apologist for Eckankar. I think
            he's a 7th. He's got some books
            out there that have overlooked
            many facts and are based upon
            lies and hearsay. What's funny,
            however, is that Doug's stated
            that Twitchell lied about traveling
            to Paris, France to visit his sister
            when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
            And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
            was probably made up by Twitchell.
            After all, PT needed to have
            someone other than Kirpal Singh,
            his real master, initiate him.
            Thus, PT created RT in order to
            initiate himself. Plus, Marman
            has admitted that Twitchell
            created the Mahanta title in
            January 1969. Yet, Marman
            omits all of this information
            in his books!

            "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.

            Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.

            May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."

            ME: Thanks for sharing this.
            It was interesting for me to
            comment.


            prometheus wrote:

            This is an entertaining approach.

            http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

            Prometheus

          • prometheus_973
            Hello Janice, Actually Marman kind of side-steps the Rebazar issue with some double talk. He agrees that there is no proof or records of Rebazar s existence,
            Message 5 of 14 , May 3, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello Janice,
              Actually Marman kind of
              side-steps the Rebazar
              issue with some double
              talk. He agrees that there
              is no proof or records
              of Rebazar's existence,
              but states that it can't
              be proven that Rebazar
              doesn't exist. How can
              anyone disprove a negative?

              Well, via a timeline! PT
              mentions in "Difficulties"
              of meeting Rebazar (pgs.
              70-71) in 1947 where he
              went up to the 7th initiation
              and then met with him
              again on a third visit
              to India around 1951
              where PT "got the finish
              of my initiations." Except,
              PT never knew of the term
              or rank of Mahanta until
              Jan. 1969... which Marman
              verifies and admits that
              this was when Paul created
              the Mahanta. That's rather
              strange isn't it since there's
              supposed to be an "Ancient
              Lineage of Mahantas."

              [On pg. 48 PT mentions that
              his first visit to India was in
              1924 when he was 15 (born
              1908)].

              Plus, let's not forget than
              Marman points out that
              Twitchell went to visit his
              sister in Paris, Kentucky
              and not Paris, France! Yes,
              Marman admits that Twit
              lied! So, how could Paul have
              met Sudar in Paris, France
              and then traveled to India
              with him where he received
              his 1st and 2nd initiations
              and then turned over, by
              Sudar, to Rebazar? It never
              happened!

              Apparently, Marman has
              trouble connecting the dots!

              Thus, how can there be
              an Ancient Lineage when
              the Mahanta was created
              in 1969? This, also, means
              that Rebazar was not a
              Mahanta nor were any so-
              called ECK (Spiritual) Masters
              prior to Rebazar. Actually,
              it points out that Twitchell
              never met Rebazar because
              he doesn't exist.

              Also, Marman states that
              the belief in saints, saviors,
              and spiritual masters is an
              intrinsic memory that Soul
              has remembered from past
              lifetimes... thus it must be
              true! These were never conmen,
              fakes, or snake oil salesmen
              and everyone knows that
              the Catholic Church and Sant
              Mat never exaggerated the
              PR of their saints!

              BTW- The following TS
              response can be found in
              the FILES section listed on
              the left under HOME,
              MESSAGES, and above
              LINKS.

              Doug Marman
              02/08/2004

              [FROM FORD JOHNSON'S (old) "THE TRUTH SEEKER" site]:

              A Few Responses:

              To Nacal [Prometheus]:

              [MARMAN ON REBAZAR]
              You went on:
              "Let's now go back up to the
              preceding paragraph since
              you seem to claim to like
              "facts" (why don't you give
              your sources?).

              "But it is a fact that his Master
              Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan
              lama, who appears to be in his
              early forties, was a young man
              when Columbus discovered America."
              Now, was that really a "fact," or
              a delusional belief, or a deliberate
              lie? Or, is it that, "There is a need
              of the people to believe in the magic
              of a saviour, and Sri Paul Twitchell
              knows this and acts out the part"
              (same article)."

              Marman: "It certainly is no fact,
              since there are no records nor
              anything else to prove that Rebazar
              Tarzs even exists, never mind
              how old he really is.

              However, there is no proof that
              it is a lie, either.

              It certainly sounds far-fetched.
              But I don't think the belief in
              saints, saviors and spiritual
              teachers comes from the desire
              to believe in magic. I think it
              comes from the innate memory
              within Soul that there is a truth
              and meaning to life that most
              of the world seems to have forgotten,
              but some remember."

              I don't think Eckankar is doing
              all that well. It's a limited audience
              with limited resources. Fortunately,
              Klemp is the main reason that
              Eckankar hasn't grown larger.

              Prometheus


              Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              >
              > Prometheus,
              >  
              > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
              >  
              > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why? 

              The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
              >  
              > Thanks
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > From: prometheus
              >
              >
              > Hello Janice and All,
              > Interesting. I think I'll
              > share some comments
              > to your insights below.
              >
              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              > "Prometheus,
              >
              > Now that is very interesting.
              >
              > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
              >
              > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
              >
              > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
              >
              > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
              >
              > ME (Prometheus): I know that
              > many of us have had similar
              > experiences of being attacked
              > by negative entities and having
              > to defend ourselves. In this case
              > your RESA was, also, one of these
              > negative beings. Too bad you
              > couldn't protect yourself from
              > them, but it's deceptive when
              > one has placed trust in a RESA
              > by assuming they are always
              > positive and always on your side.
              > They are as closed minded and
              > defensive as is any religionist
              > when protecting their dogma
              > from too much scrutiny.
              >
              > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
              >
              > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
              > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
              > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
              > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
              > the catch is that there's a time limit for
              > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
              > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
              > meditation/contemplation one will change
              > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
              > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
              > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
              > dream and imagine all sorts of things
              > when attention is placed upon these
              > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
              > and every other conman knew and uses
              > and what Klemp continues to use as
              > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
              > the magician uses while the viewer's
              > attention is distracted elsewhere.
              >
              >
              > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
              >
              > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
              > are real. It could very well be that demons
              > are metaphors for those things that bother
              > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
              > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
              > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
              > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
              > have problems since they tend to pick and
              > choose what is easy for them to believe
              > since they tend to be more simple-minded
              > and tend to see most everything in literal,
              > narrow, terms.
              >
              >
              > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
              > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
              >
              > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
              > He had the by-laws changed
              > after he took over from D.G.
              > and neither the President nor
              > the EK Board has any voting
              > authority. Only Klemp can hire
              > and fire. The local Satsang
              > Societies and local Boards have
              > been set up the same (As Above).
              > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
              > fire the local Presidents and
              > Board members and the votes
              > of Board members carry no
              > authority! The RESA has the
              > sole authority, unless, a higher
              > authority at the ESC steps in.
              > However, when this is done
              > it is always with the approval
              > of Klemp and under his direction.
              >
              >
              > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
              >
              > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
              > ECK Master" was the best book written
              > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
              > There were three interviews done around
              > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
              > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
              > is that after all of these years he's still
              > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
              > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
              > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
              > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
              > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
              > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
              > 16 years old when he, first, went from
              > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
              > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
              > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
              > comments about how he confused things
              > and screwed up paperwork so that he
              > could take it easy during the start of
              > WWII showed a level of subversion and
              > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
              > accomplish!
              >
              > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
              >
              > ME: I think that we all have to get
              > over the guilt and shame of being
              > tricked. Look at all of those who
              > belong to a religion and donate
              > time and money in order to get
              > their "feel good" fix. Religions
              > are types of opiates... Eckankar
              > too! People need to believe in
              > something that can give them
              > hope and to help them to maintain
              > a positive outlook. And, conmen
              > know what people want and need.
              > Attitude is, also, important but
              > there's a fine line between being
              > positive and being delusional.
              > Sometimes it's difficult to know
              > where to draw the line and some
              > of us have more difficulty with
              > seeing the good versus seeing
              > the bad. However, I don't think
              > that seeing the glass half-empty
              > is always wrong, but it does present
              > more of a challenge to overcome.
              >
              > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
              > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
              >
              > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
              > ever needed to jump off a bridge
              > and do a strip tease at an airport
              > and choose jail or a mental institution
              > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
              > was a liar up to the moment of his
              > untimely death and, thus, was not
              > a "spiritual being." It was all about
              > him. Besides, many people have
              > done stupid things when confused
              > with life and have sought "spiritual
              > solutions." If one chose to, one could
              > claim that their mental missteps
              > and episodes were "spiritual
              > experiences" as Klemp has done.
              > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
              > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
              > excuse his mental confusion.
              > After all, HK's the leader of a
              > church and has to be above
              > and beyond reproach. It's a
              > pretend game where he has
              > to, partially, buy into the hype
              > in order to seem authentic.
              >
              > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
              >
              > ME: I, too, know and remember some
              > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
              > as long as they don't know who I am.
              > That could/would change I'm sure.
              > They would feel betrayed and insulted
              > and I could understand that, however,
              > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
              > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
              > not due to Eckankar or because of
              > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
              > That crap just gets in the way and
              > causes more codependency. Any
              > growth or realization leading to
              > an expanded awareness is learned
              > and earned by the individual. It's
              > their own personal and private
              > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
              > whatever one wants to call this
              > divine essence, or not, that leads
              > to a divine knowingness and to
              > contentment!
              >
              > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
              >
              > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
              > while knowing about the deceptions
              > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
              > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
              > why throw the baby out with the
              > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
              > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
              > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
              > works why complain? H.I.s have
              > put blinders on in order to stay
              > the course and maintain their
              > prestigious positions which took
              > them decades of time and money
              > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
              > part, HK's RESA structure and the
              > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
              > that did the same... picked and
              > chose what they wanted to follow
              > and believe. However, that's not
              > the way Eckankar is supposed to
              > work. One is supposed to take
              > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
              > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
              > only the best from all of the other
              > religions and experts, etc. in order
              > to create (or bring forth) the EK
              > dogma to the modern Western
              > world. Thus, how can one pick
              > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
              > relevant? If a person is not consciously
              > following the guidance and the will
              > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
              > they are heretics!
              >
              > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
              >
              > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
              > Humans are social animals
              > and most like to follow in
              > one way or another because
              > it's easier to follow than to
              > lead. Being a follower requires
              > less thought and energy. It's
              > less demanding, less consuming,
              > and is less stressful. It is true
              > that the Higher one is with
              > initiations, years, and titles
              > the more lost that individual
              > is. They've bought into it
              > to the extreme. Look at Marge
              > Klemp! However, the ones
              > to really feel sorry for are those
              > ESC staffers who know it's all
              > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
              > but they have to put on an act
              > in order to keep their jobs,
              > health care, retirement, etc.
              >
              >
              > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
              >
              > ME: Doug Marman is an old
              > friend of Klemp's who's an
              > apologist for Eckankar. I think
              > he's a 7th. He's got some books
              > out there that have overlooked
              > many facts and are based upon
              > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
              > however, is that Doug's stated
              > that Twitchell lied about traveling
              > to Paris, France to visit his sister
              > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
              > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
              > was probably made up by Twitchell.
              > After all, PT needed to have
              > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
              > his real master, initiate him.
              > Thus, PT created RT in order to
              > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
              > has admitted that Twitchell
              > created the Mahanta title in
              > January 1969. Yet, Marman
              > omits all of this information
              > in his books!
              >
              > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
              >
              > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
              >
              > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
              >
              > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
              > It was interesting for me to
              > comment.
              >
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              >
              > This is an entertaining approach.
              >
              > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
            • etznab@aol.com
              I have the information recorded someplace about Marman s Rebazar Tarzs comments. I believe it s on a.r.e. someplace. Give me some time to find it ... if you
              Message 6 of 14 , May 5, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                I have the information recorded someplace about Marman's Rebazar Tarzs
                comments. I believe it's on a.r.e. someplace. Give me some time to find
                it ... if you don't find it sooner.


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thu, May 3, 2012 4:28 pm
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                (Revisited)







                Prometheus,
                 
                You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me
                peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for
                being such a wise soul.
                 
                Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted
                that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The
                circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced
                eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an
                organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more
                people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org
                is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by
                counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
                 
                Thanks




                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                (Revisited)
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM


                 
                Hello Janice and All,
                Interesting. I think I'll
                share some comments
                to your insights below.

                Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                "Prometheus,

                Now that is very interesting.

                I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so
                before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling
                in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My
                experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I
                heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know
                it started with a P.

                Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and
                then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I
                was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It
                was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly
                looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at
                me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I
                told it to get out now and never come back. It did.

                Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as
                being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams
                were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my
                favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found
                it very confusing to have these dreams.

                I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term
                relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that
                got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings
                since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true
                beauty in the teachings."

                ME (Prometheus): I know that
                many of us have had similar
                experiences of being attacked
                by negative entities and having
                to defend ourselves. In this case
                your RESA was, also, one of these
                negative beings. Too bad you
                couldn't protect yourself from
                them, but it's deceptive when
                one has placed trust in a RESA
                by assuming they are always
                positive and always on your side.
                They are as closed minded and
                defensive as is any religionist
                when protecting their dogma
                from too much scrutiny.

                "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it
                attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading
                all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another
                year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack
                seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of
                eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive
                thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I
                wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to
                them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many
                occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be
                respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories
                about the personal lives of other eckist."

                ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                the catch is that there's a time limit for
                being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                meditation/contemplation one will change
                and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                dream and imagine all sorts of things
                when attention is placed upon these
                areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                and every other conman knew and uses
                and what Klemp continues to use as
                a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                the magician uses while the viewer's
                attention is distracted elsewhere.


                "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind
                eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with
                demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have
                always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or
                demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say,
                I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't
                have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious
                hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature
                of eckankar."

                ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                are real. It could very well be that demons
                are metaphors for those things that bother
                and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                have problems since they tend to pick and
                choose what is easy for them to believe
                since they tend to be more simple-minded
                and tend to see most everything in literal,
                narrow, terms.


                "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and
                he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for
                the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest
                problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing
                using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even
                looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very
                intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like
                twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for
                spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As
                long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was
                easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate
                eckankar."

                ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                He had the by-laws changed
                after he took over from D.G.
                and neither the President nor
                the EK Board has any voting
                authority. Only Klemp can hire
                and fire. The local Satsang
                Societies and local Boards have
                been set up the same (As Above).
                Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                fire the local Presidents and
                Board members and the votes
                of Board members carry no
                authority! The RESA has the
                sole authority, unless, a higher
                authority at the ESC steps in.
                However, when this is done
                it is always with the approval
                of Klemp and under his direction.


                "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by
                twitchell and others that the average person would think is not
                spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great
                power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been
                removed from print."

                ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                ECK Master" was the best book written
                depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                There were three interviews done around
                June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                is that after all of these years he's still
                lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                16 years old when he, first, went from
                Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                comments about how he confused things
                and screwed up paperwork so that he
                could take it easy during the start of
                WWII showed a level of subversion and
                sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                accomplish!

                "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so
                confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit
                nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable
                eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it
                was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of
                eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more
                money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that
                although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a
                single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I
                wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of
                myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people
                feel dumb, gullible and used."

                ME: I think that we all have to get
                over the guilt and shame of being
                tricked. Look at all of those who
                belong to a religion and donate
                time and money in order to get
                their "feel good" fix. Religions
                are types of opiates... Eckankar
                too! People need to believe in
                something that can give them
                hope and to help them to maintain
                a positive outlook. And, conmen
                know what people want and need.
                Attitude is, also, important but
                there's a fine line between being
                positive and being delusional.
                Sometimes it's difficult to know
                where to draw the line and some
                of us have more difficulty with
                seeing the good versus seeing
                the bad. However, I don't think
                that seeing the glass half-empty
                is always wrong, but it does present
                more of a challenge to overcome.

                "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I
                am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of
                them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I
                was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental
                conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this
                great living eck master help them over come these things or at least
                help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master
                had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is
                necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp
                describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with
                a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in
                public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed
                the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was
                woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary ordeal? Did he
                go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes
                and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"

                ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                ever needed to jump off a bridge
                and do a strip tease at an airport
                and choose jail or a mental institution
                in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                was a liar up to the moment of his
                untimely death and, thus, was not
                a "spiritual being." It was all about
                him. Besides, many people have
                done stupid things when confused
                with life and have sought "spiritual
                solutions." If one chose to, one could
                claim that their mental missteps
                and episodes were "spiritual
                experiences" as Klemp has done.
                Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                excuse his mental confusion.
                After all, HK's the leader of a
                church and has to be above
                and beyond reproach. It's a
                pretend game where he has
                to, partially, buy into the hype
                in order to seem authentic.

                "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who
                appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well
                adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this
                article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is
                possible to grow in eckankar."

                ME: I, too, know and remember some
                H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                as long as they don't know who I am.
                That could/would change I'm sure.
                They would feel betrayed and insulted
                and I could understand that, however,
                that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                not due to Eckankar or because of
                inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                That crap just gets in the way and
                causes more codependency. Any
                growth or realization leading to
                an expanded awareness is learned
                and earned by the individual. It's
                their own personal and private
                relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                whatever one wants to call this
                divine essence, or not, that leads
                to a divine knowingness and to
                contentment!

                "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came
                from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high
                initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply
                accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that
                the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed
                relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can
                use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings
                being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which
                ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth
                wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as
                needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this
                concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be
                knowingly condoned."

                ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                while knowing about the deceptions
                and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                why throw the baby out with the
                (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                works why complain? H.I.s have
                put blinders on in order to stay
                the course and maintain their
                prestigious positions which took
                them decades of time and money
                to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                part, HK's RESA structure and the
                ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                that did the same... picked and
                chose what they wanted to follow
                and believe. However, that's not
                the way Eckankar is supposed to
                work. One is supposed to take
                the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                only the best from all of the other
                religions and experts, etc. in order
                to create (or bring forth) the EK
                dogma to the modern Western
                world. Thus, how can one pick
                and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                relevant? If a person is not consciously
                following the guidance and the will
                of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                they are heretics!

                "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than
                eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as
                greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still
                wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that
                eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel
                for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just
                remember the good and bless them in my heart."

                ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                Humans are social animals
                and most like to follow in
                one way or another because
                it's easier to follow than to
                lead. Being a follower requires
                less thought and energy. It's
                less demanding, less consuming,
                and is less stressful. It is true
                that the Higher one is with
                initiations, years, and titles
                the more lost that individual
                is. They've bought into it
                to the extreme. Look at Marge
                Klemp! However, the ones
                to really feel sorry for are those
                ESC staffers who know it's all
                a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                but they have to put on an act
                in order to keep their jobs,
                health care, retirement, etc.


                "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I
                will look them up but any info any of you can share would be
                appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are
                these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an
                eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."

                ME: Doug Marman is an old
                friend of Klemp's who's an
                apologist for Eckankar. I think
                he's a 7th. He's got some books
                out there that have overlooked
                many facts and are based upon
                lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                however, is that Doug's stated
                that Twitchell lied about traveling
                to Paris, France to visit his sister
                when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                was probably made up by Twitchell.
                After all, PT needed to have
                someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                his real master, initiate him.
                Thus, PT created RT in order to
                initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                has admitted that Twitchell
                created the Mahanta title in
                January 1969. Yet, Marman
                omits all of this information
                in his books!

                "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a
                private person, I felt a need to write it.

                Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.

                May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual
                experiences."

                ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                It was interesting for me to
                comment.


                prometheus wrote:

                This is an entertaining approach.

                http://www.scribd.com
                /doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson

                Prometheus
              • postekcon
                Ekult was born in the psychic era of the 1960s, TM (transcendental meditation), visiting Ashrams by pop groups such as The Beatles, and even Paul Twitchell!
                Message 7 of 14 , May 5, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Ekult was born in the psychic era of the 1960s, TM (transcendental meditation), visiting Ashrams by pop groups such as The Beatles, and even Paul Twitchell!

                  World consciousness has since moved on, but ekult is still stuck in its roots. This is why it is unable to recruit from populations today. It is no longer 'current'!

                  Ekult's foundation was built upon conjured-up entities, they called them 'masters'. These 'masters' were brought into manifestation and are solely kept in manifestation today by the constant focus of attention of ekult followers. Simply withdraw this attention- nada 'masters' and nada manifestations!

                  But more importantly, the mahanta entity (created 1969), is the psychic engine which sucks ekult followers dry of their energies. This is why HK constantly demands: think of me; think of me; think of me all the time! This is one modus operandi of how the energy is transferred, others are via the 'initiation' process and 'surrender'.

                  Should an ekult follower withdraw their energy, or leave the movement, to explain in simplistic terms; the mahanta entity is most displeased at its pending demise, and what we might call a psychic attack ensues.

                  -Postekcon


                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Prometheus,
                  >  
                  > Now that is very interesting. 
                  >  
                  >  I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out.  I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy.  My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and  I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later.  I know it started with a P.  Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness.  This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake.  The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp.  It was a strong  male voice.  A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed.  In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back.  It did.  Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con
                  > artist.  The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so.  While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character.  He seemed the most spiritual at the time.  I found it very confusing to have these dreams.   I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate.   I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa.  I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist.  I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings.   
                  >  
                  > And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down.  I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist.  It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person.  I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings.  It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly.  I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions.  Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist.    
                  >  
                  >  I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons.  I am not sure demons are real and separate entities.  I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if  I  read what they have to say, I  dismiss a lot of it.  If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist.   This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar. 
                  >  
                  >  I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good.  I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups.  I really don't s
                  >  see anything really outstanding about klemp at all.  That was my biggest problem with eckankar.  When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man.  He even looked miserable.  I saw no power.  He wasn't charismatic.  He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see.  He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical.  As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar. 
                  >  
                  >  It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual.  I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print. 
                  >  
                  >  I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things.  Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated.  I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me.  They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence.  I wasn't doing that.  I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar.  Well, not that I know of anyway.  Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest.  I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member.  Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used.
                  >  
                  > Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy.  I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems.  Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot.   Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist.  But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world?    If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being?  Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public?  Not in my opinion anyway.  Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as
                  > kind of a necessary ordeal?  Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience? 
                  >  
                  > I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings.  Some appeared to be well adjusted people.  Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving.  Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar. 
                  >  
                  >  I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time.  One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest.  I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep.  Also,  if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed.   Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person.  Lies should not be knowingly condoned.
                  >  
                  >   I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else.  They are under the eckankar spell.  I still wouldn't want contact with them though.  I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them.  It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them.  So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart. 
                  >  
                  > Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with.  I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated.  Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh?  Are these really old names in eckankar history?    Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article.  The other two appear to be writers. 
                  >  
                  > Telling my experience wasn't easy for me.  Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it. 
                  >  
                  > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus. 
                  >  
                  > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences.
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 5/3/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 12:29 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > This is an entertaining approach.
                  >
                  > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                • etznab18
                  Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? Some select trivia
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 5, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                    Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

                    To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

                    (1)

                    Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                    [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

                    The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                    So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                    It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

                    http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                    (2)

                    July 2001:

                    "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

                    Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                    http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                    (3)

                    July 2003:

                    Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                    What are your on that stuff ?
                    I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                    As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
                    It's all a matter of perspective.
                    I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
                    On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                    http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                    (4) February 2004:

                    "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                    http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                    (5)

                    March 2007:

                    [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
                    Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                    I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                    So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
                    I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                    These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                    In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                    http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Prometheus,
                    >  
                    > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
                    >  
                    > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
                    >  
                    > Thanks
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                    > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello Janice and All,
                    > Interesting. I think I'll
                    > share some comments
                    > to your insights below.
                    >
                    > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                    > "Prometheus,
                    >
                    > Now that is very interesting.
                    >
                    > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                    >
                    > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                    >
                    > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                    >
                    > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                    >
                    > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                    > many of us have had similar
                    > experiences of being attacked
                    > by negative entities and having
                    > to defend ourselves. In this case
                    > your RESA was, also, one of these
                    > negative beings. Too bad you
                    > couldn't protect yourself from
                    > them, but it's deceptive when
                    > one has placed trust in a RESA
                    > by assuming they are always
                    > positive and always on your side.
                    > They are as closed minded and
                    > defensive as is any religionist
                    > when protecting their dogma
                    > from too much scrutiny.
                    >
                    > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
                    >
                    > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                    > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                    > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                    > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                    > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                    > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                    > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                    > meditation/contemplation one will change
                    > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                    > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                    > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                    > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                    > when attention is placed upon these
                    > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                    > and every other conman knew and uses
                    > and what Klemp continues to use as
                    > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                    > the magician uses while the viewer's
                    > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                    >
                    >
                    > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
                    >
                    > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                    > are real. It could very well be that demons
                    > are metaphors for those things that bother
                    > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                    > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                    > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                    > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                    > have problems since they tend to pick and
                    > choose what is easy for them to believe
                    > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                    > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                    > narrow, terms.
                    >
                    >
                    > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                    > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
                    >
                    > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                    > He had the by-laws changed
                    > after he took over from D.G.
                    > and neither the President nor
                    > the EK Board has any voting
                    > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                    > and fire. The local Satsang
                    > Societies and local Boards have
                    > been set up the same (As Above).
                    > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                    > fire the local Presidents and
                    > Board members and the votes
                    > of Board members carry no
                    > authority! The RESA has the
                    > sole authority, unless, a higher
                    > authority at the ESC steps in.
                    > However, when this is done
                    > it is always with the approval
                    > of Klemp and under his direction.
                    >
                    >
                    > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
                    >
                    > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                    > ECK Master" was the best book written
                    > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                    > There were three interviews done around
                    > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                    > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                    > is that after all of these years he's still
                    > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                    > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                    > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                    > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                    > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                    > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                    > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                    > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                    > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                    > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                    > comments about how he confused things
                    > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                    > could take it easy during the start of
                    > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                    > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                    > accomplish!
                    >
                    > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                    >
                    > ME: I think that we all have to get
                    > over the guilt and shame of being
                    > tricked. Look at all of those who
                    > belong to a religion and donate
                    > time and money in order to get
                    > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                    > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                    > too! People need to believe in
                    > something that can give them
                    > hope and to help them to maintain
                    > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                    > know what people want and need.
                    > Attitude is, also, important but
                    > there's a fine line between being
                    > positive and being delusional.
                    > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                    > where to draw the line and some
                    > of us have more difficulty with
                    > seeing the good versus seeing
                    > the bad. However, I don't think
                    > that seeing the glass half-empty
                    > is always wrong, but it does present
                    > more of a challenge to overcome.
                    >
                    > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                    > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                    >
                    > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                    > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                    > and do a strip tease at an airport
                    > and choose jail or a mental institution
                    > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                    > was a liar up to the moment of his
                    > untimely death and, thus, was not
                    > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                    > him. Besides, many people have
                    > done stupid things when confused
                    > with life and have sought "spiritual
                    > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                    > claim that their mental missteps
                    > and episodes were "spiritual
                    > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                    > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                    > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                    > excuse his mental confusion.
                    > After all, HK's the leader of a
                    > church and has to be above
                    > and beyond reproach. It's a
                    > pretend game where he has
                    > to, partially, buy into the hype
                    > in order to seem authentic.
                    >
                    > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
                    >
                    > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                    > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                    > as long as they don't know who I am.
                    > That could/would change I'm sure.
                    > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                    > and I could understand that, however,
                    > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                    > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                    > not due to Eckankar or because of
                    > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                    > That crap just gets in the way and
                    > causes more codependency. Any
                    > growth or realization leading to
                    > an expanded awareness is learned
                    > and earned by the individual. It's
                    > their own personal and private
                    > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                    > whatever one wants to call this
                    > divine essence, or not, that leads
                    > to a divine knowingness and to
                    > contentment!
                    >
                    > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
                    >
                    > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                    > while knowing about the deceptions
                    > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                    > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                    > why throw the baby out with the
                    > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                    > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                    > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                    > works why complain? H.I.s have
                    > put blinders on in order to stay
                    > the course and maintain their
                    > prestigious positions which took
                    > them decades of time and money
                    > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                    > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                    > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                    > that did the same... picked and
                    > chose what they wanted to follow
                    > and believe. However, that's not
                    > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                    > work. One is supposed to take
                    > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                    > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                    > only the best from all of the other
                    > religions and experts, etc. in order
                    > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                    > dogma to the modern Western
                    > world. Thus, how can one pick
                    > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                    > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                    > following the guidance and the will
                    > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                    > they are heretics!
                    >
                    > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                    >
                    > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                    > Humans are social animals
                    > and most like to follow in
                    > one way or another because
                    > it's easier to follow than to
                    > lead. Being a follower requires
                    > less thought and energy. It's
                    > less demanding, less consuming,
                    > and is less stressful. It is true
                    > that the Higher one is with
                    > initiations, years, and titles
                    > the more lost that individual
                    > is. They've bought into it
                    > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                    > Klemp! However, the ones
                    > to really feel sorry for are those
                    > ESC staffers who know it's all
                    > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                    > but they have to put on an act
                    > in order to keep their jobs,
                    > health care, retirement, etc.
                    >
                    >
                    > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                    >
                    > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                    > friend of Klemp's who's an
                    > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                    > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                    > out there that have overlooked
                    > many facts and are based upon
                    > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                    > however, is that Doug's stated
                    > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                    > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                    > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                    > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                    > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                    > After all, PT needed to have
                    > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                    > his real master, initiate him.
                    > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                    > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                    > has admitted that Twitchell
                    > created the Mahanta title in
                    > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                    > omits all of this information
                    > in his books!
                    >
                    > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
                    >
                    > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                    >
                    > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
                    >
                    > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                    > It was interesting for me to
                    > comment.
                    >
                    >
                    > prometheus wrote:
                    >
                    > This is an entertaining approach.
                    >
                    > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                    >
                    > Prometheus
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus: A Calm And Peaceful Message For All Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 5, 2012
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                      BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus:



                      A Calm And Peaceful Message For All


                      Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is being
                      typed. I have really been for the most part enjoying the dialogue on this message
                      board.

                      I would like to encourage Doug Marman to continue posting here. I think
                      gradually we can all learn something that will help us move toward a greater
                      understanding.

                      We can do this together regardless of religious belief and possibly emerge in
                      a place with no fences. I have many friends from different beliefs and something
                      I have noticed in the last 10 years or so is that our differences don't separate
                      us as much as they used to. There is a coming together of sorts and a move
                      towards higher conciousness.

                      I have seen this come about through heartfelt sharing of ideas.

                      ***A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still an Eckist?

                      I send all who read this my love

                      Freeman


                      Joey Ward
                      02/09/2004
                      Top

                      Thanks Doug



                      Thank you very much for the reply to the 5 questions that I asked of you. Also
                      thanks for looking through Paul Twitchell's writings and finding the same thing that I
                      found out about Paul not using the term MAHANTA until January 1969. It means a lot to me that you answered that question I ask a while back. I join Eckankar because the
                      Mahanta was the highest state of consciousness in this world and in the inner
                      worlds so said Paul Twitchell the 971st MAHANTA (the title he gave himself). I
                      still wonder why Paul would say such a thing. To me this is the biggest lie that
                      any person could say. To make up a line of Mahanta Masters, (highest state of
                      consciousness and God made flesh) what was Paul thinking of. O' well !!! I
                      guess the next time I see Paul in the astral library I will give him a kick in
                      the pants.

                      Thanks Doug,
                      Joey Ward

                      PS..... Doug, next time you see Harold, could you tell him that Joey would like
                      to see Him start posting on The Truth Seeker Bulletin Board. It sure would be grand of
                      Harold to do so. Thanks again for your help.


                      Seeker For The Last Time
                      02/08/2004
                      Top

                      Another X`Eckist Story



                      I joined Eckankar in the early 80's, attracted partly because of their concept
                      of Soul Travel and left in the mid-90's. I had become a 3rd Initiate by that time. Because of
                      my outspoken aggressive remarks and asking too many questions about concealed facts about the organization, many wondered why the LEM had allowed me to reach that level.

                      Initiations and secret words and the idea that we need a Master, mean nothing to
                      me in this life because in my different existences I was connected to many of these
                      concepts. There were times I needed these secret words and initiations and a Master and
                      for those who need them now, it is OK. It is something many have to experience, if not in
                      this lifetime, in a different one.

                      In the mid-80's, I posted a few remarks on ARE. This was a good lesson for me,
                      because some of the die-hard ECKists attempted to attack me with their "sword from the
                      Sugmad" and "weed me out of the garden of ECK." I had no grudge against them because I
                      knew they would learn to open their minds. At the time, they believed in what they
                      did and that it was the right thing for them to do. I accepted it.

                      I hadn't been on ARE for a long time but a few weeks ago I was impelled to go on
                      it and out popped the information concerning Ford Johnson's book. In the past,
                      ECKist would say it was the ECK or LEM. I ordered the book, which I am enjoying now.
                      It brought back some memories of Eckankar.

                      I was very surprised to see some of the die-hard and long-standing
                      ECKists, including High Initiates, especially Nathan. This was a shock and it takes a lot to shock me. I am very happy for Nathan because we had communicated in the past. Nathan would make a very high class lawyer in this life(have no idea what he does). Boy, did he
                      swing that sword for Eckankar. He left nothing standing. But that was then and now is now.
                      I am happy, Nathan that you allowed yourself to open and move beyond the garden of
                      ECK. There is so much more to learn.

                      To some Eckankar is still a beautiful garden and I can respect that. I would like to stress that I have nothing against Eckankar and similar religions. They may be needed
                      for souls to grow.

                      I enjoyed reading the comments on this board..and I'll be back when I have time.

                      I'll sign off with the name I used to use on ARE - Seeker, for the last time.



                      Doug Marman
                      02/08/2004
                      Top

                      A Few Responses



                      I've received a number of comments to my last post.

                      I will respond to some of the questions and comments.

                      To Degar:

                      I agree with you that no church, book or religion can replace the part of us
                      that knows. We also both agree on the importance of fearlessness in seeing
                      truth, and the importance of teachings with heart.

                      My lights are fine, as are yours.


                      To Joey Ward:

                      I don't do yes or no questions, but I will try to keep my answers short:

                      1. Did Paul Twitchell have the highest state of consciousness as the Godman
                      as he told the world through his writings?

                      I don't know how anyone could say who was highest or who is even higher than
                      another. So, I would never say such a thing, myself. I don't even think having the
                      highest state of consciousness should be anyone's goal. A person can gain a high state of
                      consciousness and be unable to make a living here in the physical. That's not very useful.

                      2. Does Harold Klemp have the highest state of consciousness as the Godman
                      as he is telling the world throught his writings?

                      Same as above, however, I will add this. I agree with the Sufis who say that there is what they call The Pole of The World. The Sufi teacher Ibn al' Arabi points out that this same principle applies at every level of human affairs. Another Sufi put it this way: "Just as there is someone who acts as the pole for the whole of humanity, so there are poles for every faith, community, occupation - even down to the level of towns."

                      We sense when we are near such people since they seem to represent and carry the
                      whole of the town or company or faith that they are a part of. Every age has
                      those who carry the whole of things for the world at every level. We connect to that
                      whole through their vision.

                      However, I don't believe in saying who the Pole of the World is, since everyone
                      needs to find this out for themselves. In fact, in most times through history the Pole
                      of The World was hidden. The Sufis say this as well.

                      3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?

                      Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes.

                      4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on
                      them as if the Eck Master were saying them?

                      Yes.

                      5. Who do you Trust to tell the truth about Spiritual truths? Pick one only.
                      [Names omitted]

                      I see all teachings as mines. The good ones are gold mines, but they all need to be sorted through to find the pure gold. I have found no outer teachings that are pure gold.

                      The only place to test the gold is within ourselves, when we try to use it in our lives.

                      You might point to an outer person. I would rather point to our inner knowingness to recognize truth. We often do pick it up from others, however.


                      To Journey:

                      You asked: "If you are not trying to undermine Ford and his book "Confessions of
                      a God Seeker," why did you give such a negative opinion about the book in The
                      Chanhassen Villager last November?"

                      If you read my comments to the Chanhassen Villager, just like in my last post, it is focused on the errors in what David Lane has reported and the unfortunate fact that Ford repeated these as if they were facts as David did. I am absolutely amazed at how far the distortion of truths from David Lane has spread. I was disappointed that the newspaper had not done better research, and that Ford had not as well, especially since David Lane himself suggested to Ford that he study my book more thoroughly to see what had been discussed via the Internet.

                      I am just as amazed at how quickly and completely people assume that I am some
                      kind of pawn in a battle or fighting some kind of war against Ford for pointing out
                      the errors. I guess this goes to show how far off perceptions of someone else's motivations
                      can be. People will imagine what my motivations are, but they are a million miles from
                      the mark.

                      I do agree that some people like to win their arguments no matter what, and since I have no interest in that, this is exactly why I have said I would say no more about such things unless folks here were interested. From the responses I've seen, there doesn't seem to be much interest in what I was writing about.

                      I think you are right that we should all look at our motivations. I have certainly done so and have tried only to offer help in clearing up some of the confusions that have been going on for a while by getting to the facts. I have tried to stay far from criticizing anyone else's beliefs, although I do think some friendly dialogue in this area is good.

                      I think it is just as important to look at the motivations for bringing up my personal motivations. I have not questioned Ford's motivations, nor would I. I think his intentions are sincere. Getting stuck over another person's so-called intentions is often the way our Censor stops us from seeing another person's point of view fairly.

                      When we get so attached to our cause, anyone who says anything that appears to
                      interfere with our cause becomes or enemy. The motivations of our enemies are always wrong in our minds. Ask them and they would say the same about their enemies.

                      It is a sad fact that public dialogue over religious matters is almost impossible these days.
                      This was not true in America during its early days. Public dialogue was often lively and contentious, but never came to people disowning their neighbors or rejecting their families and friends like it does today.

                      As far as I am concerned, we are all friends here with a common interest in Spiritual Truth.
                      That is how I see it. And we will each decide for ourselves what is true, as we should.


                      To DD:

                      You wrote: "You spend all of your time chipping away at the edges of the argument,
                      finding miniscule points of contention (a minor date discrepancy here, a location there)
                      but not once do you address the underlying core truth that is being and has been
                      expressed here from the very beginning."

                      Exactly right. So why is everyone getting so worked up about it? Why is no one
                      simply acknowledging the minor points and letting it go? These are not core truths,
                      just a matter of correcting errors in fact.

                      No, I don't agree that my "can't we all get along" message doesn't help us get at the truth. In fact, let me say it this way: If we can not listen to those who see things differently than we do, then we will never see Truth. This doesn't mean we should all agree, but it certainly
                      does mean that we should be able to hold respectful and friendly conversations
                      with those who have a different way of seeing things. We should be open to learning from
                      others.

                      You wrote: "Your method is to find a few unimportant discrepancies and use them
                      as an attempt to discredit the entire revelation of overall truth discovered."

                      This is incorrect. I am only trying to point out the errors. I am not trying to discredit the entire message. But clearly, after we have seen the facts for what they are, the overall picture does change somewhat. That's natural.

                      Since so many of David Lane's claims are in fact not based on facts at all, but merely
                      on imagined intentions and speculations, I have also offered other possible interpretations.
                      My point is not that David's guesses are wrong and mine are right, but simply to
                      show how widely interpretations can vary when there are no facts.

                      You are the one who is painting a picture of black and white, not I. I don't see David
                      or Ford as all wrong, nor as all right. I say let's find the gold wherever we look.
                      Why blame anyone for the fact that everything they offer is not pure gold?

                      Lastly, you suggest that I am defending a teaching and that I am an apologist.
                      Okay, perhaps I am. I don't feel that is what I am doing, but I can see it would
                      look that way to you. But surely you see that your comments are the same. You are
                      also defending your beliefs. In fact, everyone who has responded to my post on this
                      bulletin board has picked at what I would call minor, technical details and
                      completely avoided my points. This doesn't mean you or anyone else here is any less
                      sincere, does it?


                      To Nacal:

                      You asked: "Where do you ever give a reference or a quote from your sources?"

                      They are in my book, and have been thoroughly discussed on alt.religion.eckankar
                      and can be found in the records there. I would be glad to present them here as
                      well, if anyone was interested.

                      You asked: "Why have you returned without answering the questions posed to you
                      by site members in previous postings? When did Twitchell first write about the
                      mahanta?

                      Was it 1969 as one site member has stated?"

                      I answered last time that I had just moved to a new home and my files were still
                      packed in boxes. They are still packed in boxes, but a few are handy so I pulled out
                      Paul's old Wisdom Notes and Illuminated Way Letters.

                      You seem to be right. Paul didn't use the word, Mahanta, until the January 1969
                      Illuminated Way Letter and the February 1969 Wisdom Note. Before then he mainly used, The
                      Master, Spiritual Traveler, Teacher, etc. Not even the mention of Living ECK
                      Master very often, although Outer Master and living Master were mentioned often.

                      This is interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

                      You wrote: "You are also being untruthful when you say that you, "… have no
                      desire to interfere with the beliefs of anyone."

                      And how would you know that? You seem to know my own desires and intentions
                      better than I do. Clearly I will need to ask you next time what my intentions
                      and desires are.

                      This is foolishness. Do you realize how hard it is to know the desires of your
                      own children?

                      How often do parents misunderstand what their children are trying to do? Have
                      you never had this happen to you when you were a child? Yet you think you can
                      actually guess my desires, when you don't even know me? Have we even met?

                      Why do people spend so much time imagining they KNOW the intentions of those
                      they disagree with?

                      I see this with ECKists just as often as with David Lane and the group here. So,
                      I'm not picking on this group. I see it as a real trap and an excuse to justify
                      rejecting what another person has to say.

                      You wrote: "You also claim to "have enjoyed the conversations on this bulletin
                      board" and yet you only respond to selective questions."

                      That's right. That was what I came here to share, after Ford claimed that I was
                      not after the kind of truth that could be discussed openly and that my book was
                      not about encouraging open dialogue. I came here for just that kind of dialogue,
                      but guess what? No one here wants to discuss the facts or the errors openly.

                      If I were Ford, I would care enough to make sure the facts I was using were
                      accurate. I thought, especially as a lawyer, he would want to know.

                      You wrote: "You attempt to confuse (like Paul and Harold) by twisting and
                      abusing truth in order to blind the reader with your distortions and illusions of reality."

                      If you really believe this, then why not point out a quote where you feel this
                      is what I am attempting to do, rather than making broad accusations about my
                      motivations? Why not just address directly what what I am saying and point out
                      how you see it differently? I have no intention of twisting the truth in anyway
                      at all.

                      You wrote: "Is what Harold's teaches (Eckankar) a myth?

                      "Since I brought the subject up can you tell me if the Holocaust was a myth or
                      not?

                      "Some things ARE black and white so just give a yes or no answer to the
                      previously mentioned two questions. Please, no long-winded explanation, yes or
                      no to each question."

                      Sorry, I don't do yes or no answers, but I'll be glad to discuss your questions.
                      Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught about Eckankar is a myth. Yes, I think
                      a lot of what people think about the Holocaust is made up of myth as well. This
                      doesn't mean that the Holocaust didn't happen, or that many of the stories or
                      facts are lies. It just means that people often try to simplify things.

                      History is largely made up of myth. There are a million personal individual
                      stories about World War II, for example, yet the history books treat it as one
                      thing that happened. The people who go through it don't see it the way the
                      history books do. They were there, but the myths are what we can deal with to
                      understand. Otherwise it is too complex.

                      You wrote: "Doug, instead of focusing on David Lane or Ford's book let's now
                      focus on the writings of Twitchell and Klemp and see where we can find
                      inaccuracies, or is the world still flat to you? Did you like the posting from
                      the May-June-July 1971 Mystic World about Twitchell? "No one really knows for
                      sure where he came from, when he was born, or if his true name is even Paul
                      Twitchell. How long he has been on this Earth planet is not known." Or, how
                      about this quote from the same article, "Paul is known to the world as Peddar
                      Zaskq, which is his real name, is an occidental." Wasn't this also his name for
                      his last incarnation and his spiritual name?"

                      Obviously we now know where he came from and was born (Paducah, Kentucky) and
                      that his true name was not Paul Twitchell, but was John Paul Twitchell. We also
                      now know when he was born (1909). Paul certainly didn't ever talk about these
                      things, nor would he answer questions about them directly, and I think he liked
                      the idea that his past was mysterious, and he helped to create this mysterious
                      past. Yes, Paul is only known to the world as Peddar Zaskq because he told the
                      world that was his spiritual name.

                      And yes, this is the kind of writing that is mythological. Did you think I would
                      say something else?

                      You went on: "Let's now go back up to the preceding paragraph since you seem to
                      claim to like "facts" (why don't you give your sources?). "But it is a fact that
                      his Master Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan lama, who appears to be in his
                      early forties, was a young man when Columbus discovered America." Now, was that
                      really a "fact," or a delusional belief, or a deliberate lie? Or, is it that,
                      "There is a need of the people to believe in the magic of a saviour, and Sri
                      Paul Twitchell knows this and acts out the part" (same article)."

                      It certainly is no fact, since there are no records nor anything else to prove
                      that Rebazar Tarzs even exists, never mind how old he really is. However, there
                      is no proof that it is a lie, either. It certainly sounds far-fetched. But I
                      don't think the belief in saints, saviors and spiritual teachers comes from the
                      desire to believe in magic. I think it comes from the innate memory within Soul
                      that there is a truth and meaning to life that most of the world seems to have
                      forgotten, but some remember.

                      As Rumi once said, the reason that false gold is so popular is because there is
                      such a thing as real gold.

                      Of course, mixed with this is that many people want a father figure, or want
                      someone to take care of them and tell them what is right and wrong.

                      You wrote: "The sad thing is that there is no freedom in religion… there is only
                      control through the use of fear and surrender of the common sense of having an
                      open mind, and of course, the dangled carrot of initiation and hope."

                      It certainly seems that way. To me, without freedom there is no point to a
                      spiritual teaching. It is simply a social group. There is more peer pressure and
                      more influence from the people who want everyone to be harmonious rather than
                      speaking honestly, than control from above, but in general I agree with you.

                      You wrote: "Paul states, "Ramaji was one of the first initiates in the ancient
                      Order of the Vairagi." It seems Paul has a problem spelling his name. "Ji" is a
                      Hindu suffix used to denote respect and affection. But, Paul is not speaking of
                      Rama."

                      Why do you think that Paul is referring to someone different than Rama? The
                      Hindus often add the "ji" to the end of a name, and sometimes it is written with
                      only the "j". Take the name Shamus-i-Tabriz. Generally this is spelled, Shams of
                      Tabriz. Same person. Jalalludin Rumi is spelled dozens of ways. Sometimes he is
                      also called Mevlana. Same person. Sometimes it is written Shabda Yoga, sometimes
                      Shabd Yog. Sometimes Yoga is spelled Joga. I interpret this quote from Paul to
                      be referring to the same person as Rama, but if you feel otherwise I would find
                      it interesting to hear why.

                      You asked: "By the way, why has Harold evaded giving his birth date and age?"

                      I don't know. Probably because it is a personal fact that has nothing to do with
                      his role. But maybe it is just a hold-over from Paul. You would have to ask him.
                      My guess is that he doesn't want people holding birthday parties because of his
                      birthdate.

                      You wrote: "Also, why is it Doug that on page 282 that Harold, the mahanta,
                      doesn't even know today about an experience he had in1970. He states, "Was he
                      really an ECK Master? Who can say?" Shouldn't the Master who is greater than the
                      God of all religions know such things?"

                      I would have to read the whole quote in context. It sounds to me as if Harold is
                      asking a rhetorical question. In other words, who can say if he was a Master
                      then?

                      Actually the question I ask is how did Darwin know that he was the Mahanta, or
                      how does Harold know this? Isn't this like any initiate who might think they
                      have gained the next initiation? Isn't this the same question? How do they
                      really know?

                      You ask: "Are the initiations in Eckankar valid as a means to greater spiritual
                      growth over those who are non-eckists? Or, is this a myth too?"

                      I think the initiations are a mixed bag. There is definitely reality to them,
                      from my personal experience. But they have become filled with myths as well. I
                      can tell you that real Self-Realization is rare, HI or not. The initiation level
                      doesn't prove anything. It is more meaningful as a personal matter than a
                      comparison to others. I don't think anyone should be judging another person's
                      worth or truth by what initiation level they are at. Including the Master.

                      You asked: "Paul states on page 136 of Difficulties Of Becoming The Living ECK
                      Master, "Cause with all of that, see, I write books in series. I have four books
                      that are finished now; well, the Shariyat is a continued writing, but I've got
                      three books actually." So Doug, where's book three? If it wasn't finished why
                      didn't Harold go to the Astral Library to finish it?"

                      Paul wrote a number of the first chapters to book three. I think he got to chapter three or four. That's as far as it has gotten. I think that Harold thought about completing book three but for some reason decided it wasn't his place to do so. I would be surprised if Harold ever finishes book three, or tries to. But you would have to ask him if you wanted to know.

                      You wrote: "Was the "Moon Virus" that Twitchell warned of a myth or a self-promotional lie, or did he make an erroneous assumption or was it just conjecture (page 234 of "Difficulties")? Show me where Kirpal Singh's name is used with Sudar Singh's?"

                      I have no idea where Paul got the idea of the Moon Virus from. He certainly used
                      it to gain some news. It is similar in some ways to the HIV virus in the way it
                      has stumped the scientists, but I have heard no connection to the moon.

                      Here is the first quote of Paul's where he mentions Sudar Singh, from the
                      January 1964 Orion magazine:

                      "I began my study of bilocation under the tutelage of Satguru Sudar Singh, in
                      Allahabad, India. Later, I switched to Sri Kirpal Singh of old Delhi. Both
                      were teaching the Shabda Yoga, that which is called the Yoga of Sound Current. I
                      had to learn to leave my body at will and return, without effort..."


                      Here is another quote from my book:

                      "I have since found two other early articles of Paul's, that show the same
                      thing: An article that ran in early 1966 called, Can You Be In Two Places At The
                      Same Time?, shows Sudar Singh, from Allahabad, India, along with Bernard of
                      England, a Self-Realization Swami who has a retreat in Maryland, Kirpal Singh of
                      Delhi, India, and Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan monk.



                      "The second article was called, The God Eaters, and ran in the November 1964
                      issue of The Psychic Observer. In the article Paul talks about Rebazar Tarzu
                      [sic], who he "made contact with...through bilocation," and Kirpal Singh as his
                      teachers. These examples clearly show that both Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs
                      were referred to, side by side with Kirpal Singh. It was not until late 1966
                      before Paul suddenly stopped referring to Kirpal Singh."



                      You wrote: "You mention that you talked to Patti Simpson and basically she says
                      it was "funny" how Paul would evade giving out information on himself. You wrote
                      that Paul tried to leave information blank "when it came to filling out official
                      forms," but found that, "they would gladly accept whatever he wrote whether it
                      was right or wrong." In truth, Paul intentionally lied and mislead people.
                      Ironically, this is one "fact" that you have supplied to help prove the validity
                      of David Lane's claim! This is also proof that you don't even listen to your own
                      words! Perhaps, this is because your conscious subjective (self) is to evade,
                      and your unconscious objective Self (God-Soul) is to impart truth."


                      If you want to imagine that, go ahead. I think there is a big difference between
                      someone who is intentionally trying to mislead people about their age, and a
                      person who refuses to give out their age. But if you want to say that both are
                      technically lies, that's fine with me. It seems to me that you are just trying
                      to make it look like something it isn't.

                      Remember, the picture that David painted is that Paul lied to Gail about his
                      age, as he had lied about his age his whole life. In fact, Gail knew perfectly
                      well that Paul wasn't giving out his age, and so did everyone else. Pretty
                      different picture if you ask me.

                      Here's a similar example. David was accused of copyright infringment many years
                      ago (ironic, isn't it?). It was over a book written about J R Hinkins group.
                      Under oath he said one thing. In his deposition, also under oath, he said the
                      opposite. The judge politely said that his testimony was untrustworthy. David
                      claims that he was not trying to lie, he just didn't remember it correctly.
                      However, the testimony shows that the first story he told seemed like the one
                      that would best help his case. Later it turned out to be exactly the wrong
                      thing, so when asked the same question in court, he answered the opposite way.
                      He lost his case over this.

                      Would you call that lying? David doesn't. I'll take David's word for it that he
                      just forgot, even though it looks otherwise. I guess that's just how I am.

                      You wrote: "Doug you have imagined facts through your own distorted belief
                      system of myth being reality. You seem to be confused as you spread confusion to
                      others (somewhat like Typhoid Mary).You have no idea of what fact or truth is
                      because you are unable to hear truth."

                      Mighty big claims. Why not just show me the quotes where you think I'm off base
                      and share how you see it? Why imagine that I am unable to see truth?

                      I'm sure I see it differently than you do. But I have few illusions about Paul.
                      My point was to show how many illusions that David had, while claiming
                      otherwise. Ford's book has got them now, too, since he was taken in by David's
                      story. The irony is that those who are most concerned about pointing out the
                      lies and illusions of others are often just as unwilling to admit and correct
                      their own.

                      However, if you feel that I've made any errors, please point them out. David
                      caught a few, and I immediately corrected them. I would like to make my book as
                      accurate as possible, and I'm in the process of making another edit to include
                      the latest information, since we are always learning new things.

                      Thanks for asking specific questions. More of this would make a real dialogue worthwhile. And I am glad to share the specific evidence behind my comments if anyone is
                      interested.

                      Doug.



                      Degar
                      02/08/2004
                      Top

                      Be The Now!!



                      If you are a follower of the Clear Light and Silent Sound, then you follow the
                      natural order of who you really are as Beingness. The secret between the truth
                      and the lie, is intention. Intention is the prime mover of awareness. How many
                      really see themselves as the observer and the observed, the now, the present.
                      Look only to the temple within yourself, no church, building or outer temple
                      will ever point the way. In fact remove or demolish all these objects of glory,
                      pride and self righteousness for in the heart of the now resides the gift.
                      "Remind all those that show you the way to the false temple of mortar and brick
                      that you have out grown their cage and See now with the Spiritual eye only
                      Truth."

                      NO RELIGION can hold GOD to a given doctrine! Even the doctrine of Light and
                      Sound…..

                      Freedom can not be bound and Freedom will destroy all that try to hold it.

                      Man is a funny creature, he seeks the company of the one and only primal cause
                      even until death. He is even willing to kill to be near to it. He believes that
                      distance exists between himself and his Maker and he must make a journey back to
                      the Godhead. Knock, knock, is anyone home? Soul exists because it is GOD. God
                      has never posed the question, "I love Soul". Your Higher Self JUST IS, no more
                      - no less.

                      Wake up!

                      Dance, Sing and Be.

                      "All thing must pass away" – George Harrison

                      Hold on to the social consciousness if you must but as Ford and Gram are saying
                      they only opened the door you must walk through and see Freedom for yourself. Not their
                      truth, but yours.

                      After the Temple of Eck was built, I made a number of visits to it. On one of my
                      visits I noticed that the temples main entrance floor was cracked right down the
                      middle. Eckankar had it repaired, so no one had any idea what had happened. If
                      that had occurred in my life, I would have asked what Spirit was saying to me?
                      Well I did….. What it told me was that the office(ORG) and the temple
                      side(Spiritual) had a major division between them. Another way of seeing it was
                      that the true teachings of Eck were no longer within the organization.

                      Fear is the last thing to go…… Pure awareness of consciousness can only be
                      experienced without fear.

                      The events unfolding before us have the blessing of the Holy Order of the World
                      Adepts or it would not be.

                      This is not an end to something, but more of a beginning.

                      Degar *




                      Kermit
                      02/08/2004
                      Top

                      Solipsist Reprieve: My Story -- Why I Left Eckankar



                      Soul, if It exists, could have entered into the agreement to share the Eckankar
                      dream. The purpose may have been for spiritual experience: to advance
                      spiritually and learn to be of service in a better and higher way and to
                      consciously learn a few other things, like the nature of illusion and deception.
                      But if I believe that soul exists, then I am asking for another round of belief
                      lessons. I had spiritual experiences, but how do I know that they are real now?
                      All I know is that I am here now and even those two adverbs are suspect.

                      Now it is the age of Aquarius and the Piscean age is over. Some astrologers say
                      that the religions of the intercessor between man and God were an aspect of the
                      Piscean phase. It is a strong aspect of the Aquarian age that the veils of the
                      intercessors be lifted. And it implies a dark night for the wizard who commands
                      his followers to "ignore that man behind the curtain." It is a bright day for
                      expose' writers. Since reading the book, I have seen other works that expose
                      Christianity and Judaism. All the political books are pointing out lies told by
                      the governments and the other party and the history books. For the Christians
                      out there: your version of "Confessions" may be the works of Timothy Freke and
                      Peter Gandy. Lies and damn lies. All religions are of the cloth of deception,
                      regardless of whose face is on the master.

                      So it appears that Eckankar has decided to maintain its position as a spiritual
                      middle school. We all saw this coming, felt it in many ways and Ford
                      articulated it for our minds in a way that we could no longer ignore. We knew
                      about David Lane and some of the plagiarism years ago and chose to forgive it.
                      We wondered why Rebazar couldn't appear for a TV spot, if he was so physical.
                      We were uncomfortable about Darwin being written out of history. The
                      restrictive guidelines.

                      When I went to receive my fifth initiation, the internal phrase kept repeating:
                      "The bloom is off the rose. . . the bloom is off the rose." I wondered what
                      that meant, but the meaning is emerging. The days of believing in Santa Clause
                      are past. Time to take the next step in becoming emancipated. Joseph Campbell
                      said that his studies gave him an overview of the myths and religions that
                      precluded his having any spiritual experiences himself. It is like the old
                      saying that he who carved the Buddha cannot worship it.

                      But I had just finished the book and was casting about and asked spirit if it
                      was true. The image of an animated Rebazar peered headfirst into my inner
                      vision and then started to mirror every movement I made. I had never had an
                      experience with him, but the message was that I was doing it and so I might as
                      well quit struggling against the curriculum. "No more Mother Goose stories for
                      you and you can pretty much forget about the tooth fairy," it told me.

                      Now I suspect why Harold is always telling fairy tales. I see an image now of
                      Paul laughing, after telling his audience that only a handful of them would
                      understand what he was trying to say. What if he was trying to say that only
                      deception exists in the world of illusion? Is Harold hinting that the teachings
                      are a fairy tale used to teach a different lesson?

                      Masters and lying liars do not come clean. But there may be more to this
                      learning than is apparent. What if Harold had told us that he had discovered
                      the truth about the whole sham and just said,

                      "Well, you can call me Harold or you can call me Gerald, but you doesn't have to
                      call me Sri anymore." Would that have been masterful? I do not know, but he
                      didn't say that. He built a temple instead.

                      One of the wake-up calls for me was an Ask-the-Master session for RESAs in one
                      of the recent books. Those guys didn't know anything. They were asking
                      questions and Harold was describing worlds and temples and I would like to think
                      that RESAs should have been able to access that information themselves, if the
                      path was working.

                      But no mastership is happening here. With Eckankar producing only two and a
                      half masters in almost 38 years, I was starting to worry that I wasn't on the
                      short list, anyway. We're all better than we were and we are better public
                      speakers, but that is not what we came for.

                      We came onto the path because it promised mastership/enlightenment. One of the
                      unspoken truths is that we don't have a chance of reaching it by way of
                      Eckankar. It has been boiling us like frogs: slowly. By the time we have been
                      around long enough to know that no one is going to go beyond the 8th initiation,
                      except one guy, our minds are no longer independent enough to get that this path
                      to mastership is not working and it not going to work.

                      Now we have talked ourselves out of a way of life. Harold would probably say we
                      have talked ourselves into a Dark Night of Soul. But that's the kind of beating
                      we would be in for if we stayed around.

                      I took a class with a lot of law enforcement types at one time. They said that
                      everyone, except the most committed sociopath, has a need to tell the truth.
                      The body language, tonal patterns and eye movements combine with other
                      unconscious clues to betray a lie or a concealed truth. One way to conceal and
                      deceive is to tell nothing but lies like Kevin Spacey's character in "The Usual
                      Suspects." This may be how Paul Twitchell did it. There is a book about this
                      subject called "Telling Lies" by Paul Ekman. It has been staring at me from my
                      bookshelf for years and it has gradually dawned on me that the title and author
                      may contain a hint.

                      My inner voice says that there is only the one I Am that smears itself across
                      the living tapestry and reabsorbs itself after one lifetime or many. So this
                      baby is going out with the bath water.

                      Thanks for tipping the scales.

                      Kermit



                      Journey
                      02/07/2004
                      Top

                      Reply to GPk: On Unloving Attitudes



                      Dear GPk,

                      As to your unloving and lack of understanding attitude, I based that on what you
                      said, especially in regards to your unkind words to Usually Skeptical.
                      You also seem to be putting down people who are posting here on this message
                      board. You continue to direct negative comments to others on this site. You come
                      across as a very angry person so I am not surprised that my comments bothered
                      you so much. You confused me because you sound like you are still an Eckist in
                      your attacks.

                      You are wrong in assuming I'm stuck/holding on to the teachings of Eckankar. I
                      was not a member that long, but I read all of Harold's transcripts and several
                      other books, attended Satsang classes, etc. From the get-go, it seemed like a
                      lot of double talk and confusing--lots of contradictions. Your postings also
                      attack Ford in that you said he was going to become the leader of a new
                      religion, that would be no different from any other group. I think you are the
                      one hung up on Eckankar. I am glad you are reading Ford's book. Then, I think
                      your comments here would be made with a better perspective, regardless of your
                      take on Ford's writings.

                      It is obvious that the only self awareness that you have ever achieved has been
                      of the little self. You seem to be still experiencing the brain washing of
                      Eckankar. The comments that you have made indicate that you are only aware of
                      the little self, rather than the higher self. Your initiation did not give you
                      self-realization. This is the flaw I see in your reasoning. But this is all
                      understandable because of the length of time you spent in the Eckankar
                      organization--you have more to dump than I do. There is a massive amount of
                      flawed concepts along with certain truths that have been mixed to such a degree
                      that it is almost impossible to decipher it all. In addition to anger, there is
                      fear that there is no truth out there--that you will not be able to find it.
                      This is, perhaps, the root of your negativity that you have lashed out on this
                      site. This is my understanding.

                      Also, I have not touted the degree of my spirituality as you have. I am only a
                      Truth Seeker.

                      Best regards and good reading,
                      Journey



                      Willy
                      02/07/2004
                      Top

                      FS Response To Ecki99 Plus 2 Laws



                      Thanks for the thorough response to the questions raised by Ecki99 and others.
                      As one other book (Christian Bible) often quoted notes "by their fruits ye shall
                      know them". Why do so many Eckists see the activities of HCS and former
                      members of Eckankar as a threat? There are no lawsuits filed, there are no
                      media exposes, there is just the statement of spiritual truths as experienced by
                      those who have taken the next step. There is no massive attempt to force Eck
                      chelas to leave their path, if that is where they are comfortable. To each his
                      own.

                      Harold has made much of Richard Maybury's two laws namely:

                      1. Do all you say you will do. (Your word is your bond, honor it.)
                      2. Do not encroach on others or their property. (Respect the integrity of
                      others.)

                      I really like these two laws, since they contain so much of spiritual truth in
                      so few words. And this world would surely be a much better place if they were
                      practiced by more people as individuals, by nations, and by spiritual paths.
                      Perhaps the organization of Eckankar and its leaders should consider how well
                      they are honoring these two laws, especially in regard to former members and
                      also in regard to current members.




                      FS
                      02/07/2004
                      Top

                      Response to Eckie_99: The Real Impact of Eckankar Mythology and The Role of HCS




                      Dear eckie_99

                      I may be starting to look predictable with the way I present my views to this
                      website, but, as many of the questions put to this site are in defence of
                      eckankar mythology, then one way of replying to these questions is to use the
                      very mythology that is being defended in order to express the truer side of
                      eckankar, the side the mahanta does not want to be seen. This reply therefore
                      will be no exception. I feel sure that this will meet with your approval.,
                      seeing as I am using the constructed, contrived, compilations of the master
                      compiler, one Paul Twitchell.

                      I quote your own words:

                      b. A Person who builds a framework that can help people grow spiritually, and
                      shows it to the world, to be judged on its own merits.

                      There is one point that you have failed to address in your defence of eckankar
                      being a framework that can help people grow, and that is, `The growth of people
                      spiritually within the framework of eckankar is dependant on Harold's acceptance
                      as to what he sees as spiritual growth, or more accurately stated, what he is
                      prepared to accept as `Truth.' I will therefore show to the world, and to you,
                      another side of how this framework of eckankar really operates in helping the
                      individual grow spiritually, and let the world judge it on its own merits.
                      Firstly, let the world see some of the teachings of eckankar that will be
                      relevant to this reply.

                      ME: This is a false premise.
                      Klemp plays the role of a
                      hypnotist and magician.
                      Any "spiritual growth" is
                      made by the individual
                      and despite Klemp's
                      interference via codependency.

                      Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                      "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and the tests
                      given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears. Every Spiritual
                      Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela to call upon the Master.
                      If the vision fails to reply then it is false".

                      Shariyat, book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                      "Be on guard, lest he who seeks without the Vi-Guru finds those who only appear
                      as the Holy One, claiming to be angels, or saints. Let none deceive the chela.
                      If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be deceived by the kal
                      Niranjan. If he has not the armour of Spirit, he can be misled".

                      Shariyat, book 1, page 149. Third Printing 1972:
                      "The ECKist knows that the presence of the Living ECK Master is always with
                      him. He is never alone".

                      What is presented here to the world, and yourself , is the truth of my own
                      experience while within this framework of eckankar and its leader, the mahanta.
                      Here is part of my letter to Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of recorded
                      inner experiences that was sent to him while following this framework of
                      eckankar, that you say, " can help people grow spiritually",

                      "All that is contained within the journal has withstood the tests of the secret words that are required to be used to prove their validity and all that you are about to read, I stand by as true."

                      Now friend, let the world see what the teachings of eckankar say about the inner
                      experiences of a chela and how they are viewed within this framework.

                      "The Shariyat book 2, pages 50-51: Second Edition 1988:
                      "No ECK Master will acknowledge his appearance to another person. This is
                      neither modesty nor is it a feeling of hiding something; in a sense he is
                      letting the individual decide for themselves whether it was really him. He
                      wants them to decide if it was reality. In this way he is not telling, nor
                      confirming his presence with them in the Atma Sarup, but allowing them the
                      independence of knowing and understanding whether it was actually him.

                      If a person makes up his mind that the living ECK Master really appeared to him,
                      then he knows it and this cannot be taken away from him, regardless. However,
                      if he has to be told that it was the ECK Master, then he is always in doubt, for
                      it was an outside source which gave him his information and not himself. It is
                      superficial knowledge and not from his own inner source.

                      He must always remember that the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master is not the one
                      to tell him of his inner experiences, nor whether the ECK Master has appeared to
                      him. But he must know this with a faith that is beyond anything that he has
                      experienced and, therefore, it will stay with him. Otherwise it may fade in
                      time, and the experiencer soon forgets whether it was really the ECK Master".

                      Now let the world see the reply from the leader of this framework of eckankar
                      that helps the individual to grow spiritually.

                      Reply from Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of inner experiences while a
                      chela under his claimed protection as the mahanta.

                      "In response to your letter and journal of inner experiences which led you to
                      think you have received the Rod of Eck Power. You have not.

                      Your instincts were right not to believe this. The Kal misled you."

                      Let it be explained to the world, and your own good self, that there was never
                      any claim made to me having had received the rod of eck power, only that it was
                      a possibility. Therefore, before we go any further, Harold Klemp is wrong in
                      his statement. Now we must look at his other words, those of `The Kal Misled
                      You`. Now friend, after being told I was misled by the kal, even though I have
                      Harold's assurance that, `If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be
                      deceived by the KAL Niranjan.`. he then fails to explain how this could have
                      happened and failed to give any further guidance as to what I could do to
                      prevent it happening again, although as we can see by the promise of this
                      framework, I should never have been misled in the first place.

                      Having now told me I was mistaken, Harold then goes on to lay the karmic
                      responsibility upon me for being responsible for leading others off the path of
                      eck.

                      "This happens more often than one would care to believe. People who fall for
                      this trick and mislead others off the path of eck become responsible for the karma."

                      Let the world and yourself take note of these words, for we are told something
                      very interesting here; "This happens more often than one would care to believe."
                      Are not these words very thought provoking? Is Harold admitting that being
                      misled by the kal while within this framework of eckankar,and, having his
                      protection of the Vi-Guru, being misled by the kal is a common occurance? If
                      this is so, then the claimed protection of the vi-guru must be failing to work.
                      Not only that, the secret words must also be failing. Let the world see what
                      eckankar has to say about the protection of its secret words:

                      Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                      "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and the tests
                      given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears. Every Spiritual
                      Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela to call upon the Master.
                      If the vision fails to reply then it is false".

                      Let it go on record that the visions within the journal's inner experiences did
                      reply and that I used the Word, and Words as is asked of the chela. Some of
                      these words being Sugmad, Wah Z, HU, Mahanta, or any of the names of the masters
                      of the vairagi.

                      Here I think we should let the world know just how important this figure of the
                      mahanta, the vi-guru really is, otherwise they may not fully realise just how
                      powerful the mahanta truly is?

                      Shariyat book 2 page 196. Second Edition 1988:
                      "The eck works are the most powerful in this world; and the mahanta, the living
                      eck master, who is the vehicle and channel for the eck, is the most powerful
                      being within the physical world, as well as the planets and all the planes
                      within the worlds of God."

                      Shariyat, book 1 says on page 81. Third Printing 1972:
                      "He is stronger than any man in intellect or spirit, for he has unlimited
                      power, and yet this strength is combined with the noble virtues of the humble
                      and gentle. All people find in him inspiration for the development of noble
                      character".

                      Shariyat, book 2 page 184 Second Edition 1988:
                      "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master has other titles. He is the Godman, the
                      Vi-Guru, the Light Giver, protector of the poor, the king of heaven, saviour of
                      mankind, the scourge of evil, and the defender of the faithful. He is the real
                      and only power in all the universes of God. No one can harm him without his
                      consent, for all that is done to him is given permission by the ECK, with his
                      consent".

                      To help further my spiritual growth within this framework of eckankar, the
                      mahanta now goes on to say:

                      "As a spiritual discipline you are put back to the First Circle of initiation
                      and are to stand aside from all eck duties for the present."

                      We can show the world that this is also against what the framework of eckankar
                      teaches:

                      Dialogues With The Master page 172:
                      First Printing 1990 "Remember this that those who demand respect and love of
                      others to themselves are only exercising the negative or attracting power. The
                      true teachings do not discipline in any way; do not set up duties or
                      difficulties or tasks for teaching their disciples."

                      This framework also tells the world, and its followers, that the teacher will
                      bring about any changes needed within a chela without any pain or difficulties.


                      Illuminated Way Letters 1966-1971 page 54 Copyright 1975 by Gail Twitchell
                      Gross:

                      "It is doubtful that the teacher will sit with his chela and discuss any
                      character faults of the aspirant. Hardly ever will the teachers tell anyone
                      what is wrong with himself, but he will concentrate on the error and bring about
                      the change from the inner to the outer world, without pain or difficulty to the
                      chelas, very often without the chela having any conscious awareness of it."

                      Dear friend, and the world. I am fully aware of what this framework of eckankar
                      has done to me, I am also fully aware of what this framework has done to many
                      others, and this is the reason why the framework of the H.C.S. was brought
                      about. It was brought about to help those who have suffered the injustice of
                      eckankar at the hands of its mythological mahanta and to give them support and
                      a free voice.

                      We can now look to another aspect of this frameworks teachings, if not its
                      practice, that of calling upon the master when the chela finds themselves in any
                      difficulty:

                      I was now left with no other recourse to attain further guidance other than to
                      write to the mahanta at the physical level. As yet, nothing has been given. Now
                      for the eckankar apologists they can say, "Get It On The Inner", but, and this
                      is very very very important, how can the individual `Get It On The Inner` when
                      the mahanta has just told the individual that all they have received on the
                      inner is the misleadings of the kal? That the chela has the right to call upon
                      the mahanta is given in the frameworks teachings. Not only has the chela the
                      right to call upon the mahanta, but the mahanta is bound by his duty to answer
                      each and every call of this nature. Let the world see the following exhibit:


                      Illuminated Way Letters, 1966-1971, PAGE 130 Copyright 1975 by Gail Twitchell
                      Gross:

                      "Whenever the chela experiences any difficulty with himself such as
                      falling into the negative trap, or even with Soul Travel, he should call upon
                      the Master to assist him, or conduct him as the soul traveller to the spiritual
                      worlds. For the Living ECK Master is bound by his mission to answer each and
                      every call of this nature".


                      Let it go on record, that the mahanta has failed in his duty, both to give the
                      inner protection that his framework promises to give, and that he has also
                      failed to assist a chela when called upon to do so. Now the world can see what
                      the framework of eckankar says about a master failing in his duty:

                      Shariyat, book 2, page 219. Second Edition 1988:
                      "If he falters or fails; it is possible that he may be taken out of this
                      position; and if he falters in his responsibility while serving as the Mahanta,
                      the Living ECK Master, it is possible that he must step down for another to take
                      his place".

                      Unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to let all see the contents of my journal and
                      come to their own understanding, and, unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to
                      answer any questions that others may wish to ask. The framework of the H.C.S.
                      has provided this facility for openness and free speech, the framework of
                      eckankar has provided only threats to those who voice dissension and doubt.

                      Shariyat, book 1, page 91. Third Printing 1972:
                      "To ridicule, to scorn, to speak mockingly of the word of the Mahanta, and not
                      to have faith in him and the cause of ECK is to bring woes on the advocator of
                      doubt. It brings his karmic progress to a halt, increases his incarnations in
                      this world, and causes him to suffer untold hardships".

                      Even if a chela, or chela's tries to broach a question that is not wanted by the framework of eckankar and its leader, its teachings provide a guidance for the party faithful of how to view this dissesion within the ranks.

                      Shariyat, book 2, pages 25-26. Second Edition 1988:
                      " It must be remembered that all complaints and all arguments against the ECK,
                      which are directed at the Mahanta, are the works of the Kal. Such assaults on
                      the Mahanta are those which originate from the Kal using the minds and
                      consciousness of those persons within its power to destroy the Mahanta and the
                      ECK, if at all possible. These are the works of the Kal, who uses religion,
                      ministers, and lay persons to bring about the downfall of the ECK, because it is
                      the truth. There will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and disguise
                      themselves under the robes of the ECK, but they are prophets with false faces
                      who are lying to the ECKist`s , but few if any who are true followers of the ECK
                      are ever deceived by these agents of the Kal".

                      What Harold Klemp and the eckankar organisation have chosen to ignore is that
                      truth, a truth that can be proven, is not an assault upon the mahanta, it is an
                      assault upon that which is untrue. If Harold Klemp as the mahanta and the
                      eckankar organisation see, and feel, that this as an assault upon them, then it
                      can only be because they have something to hide. Truth knows no fear, so why
                      does the framework of eckankar hide behind a wall of silence, instead of making
                      a stand upon its proclaimed truth in order to defend the truth of the sugmad and
                      its faithful followers?

                      Let those who have the eyes to see and the ears to ear reach their own verdict
                      from the `Facts` provided by the framework of eckankar itself , and its
                      application of its teachings by the mahanta. `By Their Actions Ye Shall Know
                      Them`

                      Dear friend, and the world, I rest my case.



                      Usually Skeptical
                      02/07/2004
                      Top

                      Response to eckie_99: I Took Your Test and Got An "A" !



                      Dear ekie,

                      Well, I looked at your test questions and have the answers... !.)

                      1.)
                      Q- What is more ethically incorrect?
                      A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold

                      2.)
                      Q- Who is less truthful?
                      A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold (that was just like #1!)

                      3.)
                      Q- Who is spiritually more developed?
                      A- "C" Those who are not afraid to see and hear truth

                      4.)
                      Q- What is a bigger spiritual crime?
                      A- "C" Not to give people the opportunity to know and choose truth over lies

                      That wasn't so hard after all... was it!

                      I graded it myself and got 100% correct!

                      Usually Skeptical

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that
                      rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"
                      >
                      > Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for
                      complete context.)
                      >
                      > To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a
                      long post though.
                      >
                      > (1)
                      >
                      > Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:
                      >
                      > [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
                      self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug
                      Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a
                      personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul
                      was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of
                      something like Dialogues With The Master.
                      >
                      > The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs.
                      Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something
                      like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar
                      Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic.
                      This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was
                      amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it
                      today.
                      >
                      > So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard
                      anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was
                      news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left
                      it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would
                      run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.
                      >
                      > It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep
                      impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the
                      tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying
                      something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush."
                      [... .]
                      >
                      > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm
                      >
                      > (2)
                      >
                      > July 2001:
                      >
                      > "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my
                      invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]
                      >
                      > Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't
                      David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that?
                      Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in
                      its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar
                      Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]
                      >
                      > http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25
                      >
                      > (3)
                      >
                      > July 2003:
                      >
                      > Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most
                      part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant
                      fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar
                      to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his
                      part ???
                      >
                      What are your on that stuff ?

                      > I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact
                      that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means
                      this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the
                      words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word
                      for word from Rebazar Tarzs.

                      > As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back
                      at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He
                      influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start
                      writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and
                      just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees
                      that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it
                      looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a
                      spin-off.

                      > It's all a matter of perspective.

                      > I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked
                      them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very
                      similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also
                      writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The
                      Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's
                      students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.

                      > On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote
                      this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm
                      glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his
                      popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about
                      that. - Doug.
                      >
                      > http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz
                      >
                      > (4) February 2004:
                      >
                      > "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I
                      can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers
                      words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying
                      them? Yes. [....]"
                      >
                      > http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264
                      >
                      > (5)
                      >
                      > March 2007:
                      >
                      > [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book,
                      Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?

                      > Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he
                      trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?

                      > I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The
                      River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have
                      taken The Far Country as something different.

                      > So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of
                      art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were
                      fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust
                      issue for them.

                      > I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much
                      more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual
                      teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.

                      > These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I
                      always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was
                      trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.

                      In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave
                      the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really
                      like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write
                      about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later,
                      wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts
                      are not exactly right?
                      >
                      > http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                      <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Prometheus,
                      > >
                      > > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It gives me peace
                      of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank you for being such a wise
                      soul.
                      > >
                      > > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that
                      rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? The circus of
                      eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder
                      it is to believe that it can stand as an organization. It appears like a house
                      of cards. Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and
                      do you think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their
                      membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event. Any ideas?
                      > >
                      > > Thanks
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                      > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                      (Revisited)
                      > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Hello Janice and All,
                      > > Interesting. I think I'll
                      > > share some comments
                      > > to your insights below.
                      > >
                      > > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                      > > "Prometheus,
                      > >
                      > > Now that is very interesting.
                      > >
                      > > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before
                      I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a
                      good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I
                      was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a
                      word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I
                      felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half
                      awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male
                      voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like
                      figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the
                      foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back.
                      It did.
                      > >
                      > > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being
                      a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more
                      so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed
                      the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                      > >
                      > > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term
                      relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me
                      yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming
                      an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                      > >
                      > > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                      > > many of us have had similar
                      > > experiences of being attacked
                      > > by negative entities and having
                      > > to defend ourselves. In this case
                      > > your RESA was, also, one of these
                      > > negative beings. Too bad you
                      > > couldn't protect yourself from
                      > > them, but it's deceptive when
                      > > one has placed trust in a RESA
                      > > by assuming they are always
                      > > positive and always on your side.
                      > > They are as closed minded and
                      > > defensive as is any religionist
                      > > when protecting their dogma
                      > > from too much scrutiny.
                      > >
                      > > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it
                      attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the
                      things I would not read as a<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug Marman s use of the word facts . In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 6, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug
                        Marman's use of the word "facts".

                        In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my questions
                        about Rebazar Tarzs on a.r.e. - it seemed to me that in some respects
                        "facts" were somehow "secondary" to spiritual experience.

                        I thoiught about the a.r.e. thread last night trying to fathom what
                        Doug was saying about Paul's stories and things said (some of them) not
                        based on facts. And frankly, it still didn't jive with me. Off hand I
                        can remember at least two places where Paul Twitchell illustrated that
                        Rebazar Tarzs "told him" what to write. In one place (I believe)
                        Rebazar Tarzs comes to Paul's room, wakes him up, tells him to take up
                        the pencil and write. (I'm referring to Dialogues With The Master and
                        The Far Country.) So how can Doug suggest those were Paul's words based
                        on a spiritual experience?
                        Paul wrote (in so many words) that Rebazar Tarzs came and materialized
                        in his room, and in one instance (I believe) the mattress sank from the
                        weight of R.T. sitting on it.

                        It would be nice if everybody didn't go away, all those Eckists on the
                        newsgroups, and if the string of dialogues could continue today. I say
                        this because there is a lot more information and examples available to
                        share where many of "Paul's words" read as plagiarized from various
                        books by other authors - none of them by the name of Rebazar Tarzs, or
                        other Eck masters.

                        ***

                        "They" didn't succeed at booting me from a.r.e., and I didn't "move on"
                        as once suggested. To the contrary I continued to research the FACTS -
                        whether anybody likeed it or not - and have reams of examples (which
                        can be illustrated and verified by REAL evidence and FACTS) about many
                        of the things people were chewing on and debating over for years before
                        I arrived. Some of the examples I (and others) have since found are
                        those that not even David Lane was aware of (I'm talking about examples
                        of Paul's writings compared with other authors) and I think probably
                        that Doug Marman was unaware of.

                        So new information has come in since the D.L. / D.M. debates, etc. New
                        FACTS are now known. How facts can be important in one instance and
                        something else in another ... I am not sure what Doug was talking
                        about.

                        I recall from the newspapers that sometimes when something happens that
                        embarrasses the government and people want to know who is responsible -
                        such as torture of prisoners, etc. - those higher up in the ladder
                        have responded with things like: The first time I heard about it was
                        from the news / newspaper. Iow, people claim ignorance and that they
                        didn't know about something until it became public via the news. Well,
                        to admit otherwise - and that they did know about it (and for a long
                        time) - would be damning to them and public opinion would have them on
                        a spike!

                        Now I recall that (for some reason) Harold Klemp doesn't use the
                        Internet. I'm sure he reads the newspapers and watches the news, but
                        how much about the trove of FACTS regarding Paul's writings compared
                        with other authors - INCLUDING REBAZAR TARZS - is in the newspapers, or
                        on the evening news? (Maybe it should be?) Much of the new information
                        and research has been put on the Internet. That's where it is (also in
                        some books). And even there, we've probably all seen how apologists can
                        argue against certain information being true, try to marginalize people
                        and their research, even to the extent of suggesting (in so many words)
                        that facts don't matter. Or, it's not about facts.

                        Well, I've seen where it looks like people want to have it both ways.
                        Facts matter. Facts don't matter. As far as research goes, and besides
                        the stories of "spiritual experiences" that people send in, When was
                        the last time the Eckankar website posted something about people doing
                        real research into the stories told by Paul Twitchell? (Not to mention
                        "research" about the stories sent in by Eckists today?) It was 1984
                        when Harold came out with all that stuff about Paul Twitchell and when
                        Harold did research. I wonder if they continue to research, or if (for
                        some reason) it stopped a long time ago?

                        Oh yeah, I remember it now.

                        "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
                        researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
                        turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to say
                        that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I [Doug
                        Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the records.
                        Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past, which
                        Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough study.
                           
                        "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
                        about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
                        further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and worked
                        for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early days.
                        So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [....] A few
                        months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
                        began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
                        share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
                        anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
                        unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
                        see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [....]"

                        [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]

                        "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                        Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                        1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                        Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                        Singh, who is not the same person at all.
                        "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                        whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                        all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                        more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                        initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                        "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                        just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                        report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                        Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

                        [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                        Harold Klemp - see link]

                        http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

                        They got reports? Hmm ... then maybe I should send in a report? :)

                        I could give other examples where it looks like Eckankar is interested
                        in stories from other people, including what people found by research.
                        Apparently though, the LEM. isn't going to simply look at the Eck-Vidya
                        and share answers to all of the questions people have. At the same time
                        though, it looks like people pick and choose from all the information
                        only what "THEY WANT" the facts to be and put the rest under the rug.

                        If one disregards the reported facts written by Paul Twitchell
                        concerning his meetings, encounters, and relationships with Eck Masters
                        then where does it leave you? In Never Never Land with Peter Pan and
                        Tinker Bell, etc.? (Hey look! He's playing a flute!)

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverland

                        Are "spiritual experiences", the "stories" (and the stories that people
                        send in) somehow more REAL than factual accounts which can be
                        researched and verified? Or, Are "spiritual experiences" sometimes used
                        as a label for anything a person wants to be true? Iow, does the land
                        of make believe trump the actual facts? This is what it comes down to,
                        IMO.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sat, May 5, 2012 10:57 pm
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                        (Revisited)

                         
                        BTW- Nacal and Usually Skeptical is (me) Prometheus:

                        A Calm And Peaceful Message For All

                        Please read this message in the calm and peaceful tone in which it is
                        being typed.
                        I have really been for the most part enjoying the dialogue on this
                        message board.

                        I would like to encourage Doug Marman to continue posting here. I think
                        gradually
                        we can all learn something that will help us move toward a greater
                        understanding.

                        We can do this together regardless of religious belief and possibly
                        emerge in
                        a place with no fences. I have many friends from different beliefs and
                        something
                        I have noticed in the last 10 years or so is that our differences don't
                        separate
                        us as much as they used to. There is a coming together of sorts and a
                        move
                        towards higher conciousness.

                        I have seen this come about through heartfelt sharing of ideas.

                        ***A question for Doug. Is Patti Simpson still an Eckist?

                        I send all who read this my love

                        Freeman

                        Joey Ward
                        02/09/2004
                        Top

                        Thanks Doug

                        Thank you very much for the reply to the 5 questions that I asked of
                        you. Also thanks for
                        looking through Paul Twitchell's writings and finding the same thing
                        that I found out about
                        Paul not using the term MAHANTA until January 1969. It means a lot to
                        me that you answered that question I ask a while back. I join Eckankar
                        because the Mahanta was the highest state of consciousness in this
                        world and in the inner worlds so said Paul Twitchell the 971st MAHANTA
                        (the title he gave himself). I still wonder why Paul would say such a
                        thing. To me this is the biggest lie that any person could say. To make
                        up a line of Mahanta Masters, (highest state of consciousness and God
                        made flesh) what was Paul thinking of. O' well !!! I guess the next
                        time I see Paul in the astral library I will give him a kick in the
                        pants.

                        Thanks Doug,
                        Joey Ward

                        PS..... Doug, next time you see Harold, could you tell him that Joey
                        would like to see Him
                        start posting on The Truth Seeker Bulletin Board. It sure would be
                        grand of Harold to do so.
                        Thanks again for your help.

                        Seeker For The Last Time
                        02/08/2004
                        Top

                        Another X`Eckist Story

                        I joined Eckankar in the early 80's, attracted partly because of their
                        concept of Soul Travel
                        and left in the mid-90's. I had become a 3rd Initiate by that time.
                        Because of my outspoken
                        aggressive remarks and asking too many questions about concealed facts
                        about the organization, many wondered why the LEM had allowed me to
                        reach that level.

                        Initiations and secret words and the idea that we need a Master, mean
                        nothing to me
                        in this life because in my different existences I was connected to many
                        of these concepts.
                        There were times I needed these secret words and initiations and a
                        Master and for those
                        who need them now, it is OK. It is something many have to experience,
                        if not in this lifetime,
                        in a different one.

                        In the mid-80's, I posted a few remarks on ARE. This was a good lesson
                        for me, because
                        some of the die-hard ECKists attempted to attack me with their "sword
                        from the Sugmad"
                        and "weed me out of the garden of ECK." I had no grudge against them
                        because I knew
                        they would learn to open their minds. At the time, they believed in
                        what they did and
                        that it was the right thing for them to do. I accepted it.

                        I hadn't been on ARE for a long time but a few weeks ago I was impelled
                        to go on it
                        and out popped the information concerning Ford Johnson's book. In the
                        past, ECKist
                        would say it was the ECK or LEM. I ordered the book, which I am
                        enjoying now.
                        It brought back some memories of Eckankar.

                        I was very surprised to see some of the die-hard and long-standing
                        ECKists,including
                        High Initiates, especially Nathan. This was a shock and it takes a lot
                        to shock me. I am
                        very happy for Nathan because we had communicated in the past. Nathan
                        would make
                        a very high class lawyer in this life(have no idea what he does). Boy,
                        did he swing that
                        sword for Eckankar. He left nothing standing. But that was then and now
                        is now. I am
                        happy, Nathan that you allowed yourself to open and move beyond the
                        garden of ECK.
                        There is so much more to learn.

                        To some Eckankar is still a beautiful garden and I can respect that. I
                        would like to stress
                        that I have nothing against Eckankar and similar religions. They may be
                        needed for souls
                        to grow.

                        I enjoyed reading the comments on this board..and I'll be back when I
                        have time.

                        I'll sign off with the name I used to use on ARE - Seeker, for the last
                        time.

                        Doug Marman
                        02/08/2004
                        Top

                        A Few Responses

                        I've received a number of comments to my last post.

                        I will respond to some of the questions and comments.

                        To Degar:

                        I agree with you that no church, book or religion can replace the part
                        of us
                        that knows. We also both agree on the importance of fearlessness in
                        seeing
                        truth, and the importance of teachings with heart.

                        My lights are fine, as are yours.

                        To Joey Ward:

                        I don't do yes or no questions, but I will try to keep my answers
                        short:

                        1. Did Paul Twitchell have the highest state of consciousness as the
                        Godman
                        as he told the world through his writings?

                        I don't know how anyone could say who was highest or who is even higher
                        than another.
                        So, I would never say such a thing, myself. I don't even think having
                        the highest state
                        of consciousness should be anyone's goal. A person can gain a high
                        state of consciousness
                        and be unable to make a living here in the physical. That's not very
                        useful.

                        2. Does Harold Klemp have the highest state of consciousness as the
                        Godman
                        as he is telling the world throught his writings?

                        Same as above, however, I will add this. I agree with the Sufis who say
                        that there is
                        what they call The Pole of The World. The Sufi teacher Ibn al' Arabi
                        points out that this
                        same principle applies at every level of human affairs. Another Sufi
                        put it this way:
                        "Just as there is someone who acts as the pole for the whole of
                        humanity, so there
                        are poles for every faith, community, occupation - even down to the
                        level of towns."

                        We sense when we are near such people since they seem to represent and
                        carry the
                        whole of the town or company or faith that they are a part of. Every
                        age has those
                        who carry the whole of things for the world at every level. We connect
                        to that whole
                        through their vision.

                        However, I don't believe in saying who the Pole of the World is, since
                        everyone needs
                        to find this out for themselves. In fact, in most times through history
                        the Pole of The
                        World was hidden. The Sufis say this as well.

                        3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works?

                        Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes.

                        4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters
                        names on them
                        as if the Eck Master were saying them?

                        Yes.

                        5. Who do you Trust to tell the truth about Spiritual truths? Pick
                        one only. [Names omitted]

                        I see all teachings as mines. The good ones are gold mines, but they
                        all need to be sorted
                        through to find the pure gold. I have found no outer teachings that are
                        pure gold.

                        The only place to test the gold is within ourselves, when we try to use
                        it in our lives.

                        You might point to an outer person. I would rather point to our inner
                        knowingness
                        to recognize truth. We often do pick it up from others, however.

                        To Journey:

                        You asked: "If you are not trying to undermine Ford and his book
                        "Confessions of a God Seeker," why did you give such a negative opinion
                        about the book in The Chanhassen Villager last November?"

                        If you read my comments to the Chanhassen Villager, just like in my
                        last post, it is focused
                        on the errors in what David Lane has reported and the unfortunate fact
                        that Ford repeated
                        these as if they were facts as David did. I am absolutely amazed at how
                        far the distortion
                        of truths from David Lane has spread. I was disappointed that the
                        newspaper had not done
                        better research, and that Ford had not as well, especially since David
                        Lane himself suggested
                        to Ford that he study my book more thoroughly to see what had been
                        discussed via the Internet.

                        I am just as amazed at how quickly and completely people assume that I
                        am some kind
                        of pawn in a battle or fighting some kind of war against Ford for
                        pointing out the errors.
                        I guess this goes to show how far off perceptions of someone else's
                        motivations can be.
                        People will imagine what my motivations are, but they are a million
                        miles from the mark.

                        I do agree that some people like to win their arguments no matter what,
                        and since I have
                        no interest in that, this is exactly why I have said I would say no
                        more about such things
                        unless folks here were interested. From the responses I've seen, there
                        doesn't seem to be
                        much interest in what I was writing about.

                        I think you are right that we should all look at our motivations. I
                        have certainly done so and
                        have tried only to offer help in clearing up some of the confusions
                        that have been going on
                        for a while by getting to the facts. I have tried to stay far from
                        criticizing anyone else's beliefs, although I do think some friendly
                        dialogue in this area is good.

                        I think it is just as important to look at the motivations for bringing
                        up my personal motivations. I have not questioned Ford's motivations,
                        nor would I. I think his intentions are sincere. Getting stuck over
                        another person's so-called intentions is often the way our Censor stops
                        us from seeing another person's point of view fairly.

                        When we get so attached to our cause, anyone who says anything that
                        appears to interfere
                        with our cause becomes or enemy. The motivations of our enemies are
                        always wrong
                        in our minds. Ask them and they would say the same about their enemies.

                        It is a sad fact that public dialogue over religious matters is almost
                        impossible these days.
                        This was not true in America during its early days. Public dialogue was
                        often lively and contentious, but never came to people disowning their
                        neighbors or rejecting their families and friends like it does today.

                        As far as I am concerned, we are all friends here with a common
                        interest in Spiritual Truth.
                        That is how I see it. And we will each decide for ourselves what is
                        true, as we should.

                        To DD:

                        You wrote: "You spend all of your time chipping away at the edges of
                        the argument,
                        finding miniscule points of contention (a minor date discrepancy here,
                        a location there)
                        but not once do you address the underlying core truth that is being and
                        has been expressed
                        here from the very beginning."

                        Exactly right. So why is everyone getting so worked up about it? Why is
                        no one simply
                        acknowledging the minor points and letting it go? These are not core
                        truths, just a matter
                        of correcting errors in fact.

                        No, I don't agree that my "can't we all get along" message doesn't help
                        us get at the truth.
                        In fact, let me say it this way: If we can not listen to those who see
                        things differently than
                        we do, then we will never see Truth. This doesn't mean we should all
                        agree, but it certainly
                        does mean that we should be able to hold respectful and friendly
                        conversations with those
                        who have a different way of seeing things. We should be open to
                        learning from others.

                        You wrote: "Your method is to find a few unimportant discrepancies and
                        use them
                        as an attempt to discredit the entire revelation of overall truth
                        discovered."

                        This is incorrect. I am only trying to point out the errors. I am not
                        trying to discredit
                        the entire message. But clearly, after we have seen the facts for what
                        they are, the
                        overall picture does change somewhat. That's natural.

                        Since so many of David Lane's claims are in fact not based on facts at
                        all, but merely
                        on imagined intentions and speculations, I have also offered other
                        possible interpretations.
                        My point is not that David's guesses are wrong and mine are right, but
                        simply to show how
                        widely interpretations can vary when there are no facts.

                        You are the one who is painting a picture of black and white, not I. I
                        don't see David
                        or Ford as all wrong, nor as all right. I say let's find the gold
                        wherever we look.
                        Why blame anyone for the fact that everything they offer is not pure
                        gold?

                        Lastly, you suggest that I am defending a teaching and that I am an
                        apologist.
                        Okay, perhaps I am. I don't feel that is what I am doing, but I can see
                        it would look
                        that way to you. But surely you see that your comments are the same.
                        You are also
                        defending your beliefs. In fact, everyone who has responded to my post
                        on this
                        bulletin board has picked at what I would call minor, technical details
                        and completely
                        avoided my points. This doesn't mean you or anyone else here is any
                        less sincere,
                        does it?

                        To Nacal:

                        You asked: "Where do you ever give a reference or a quote from your
                        sources?"

                        They are in my book, and have been thoroughly discussed on
                        alt.religion.eckankar
                        and can be found in the records there. I would be glad to present them
                        here as well,
                        if anyone was interested.

                        You asked: "Why have you returned without answering the questions posed
                        to you
                        by site members in previous postings? When did Twitchell first write
                        about the mahanta?
                        Was it 1969 as one site member has stated?"

                        I answered last time that I had just moved to a new home and my files
                        were still packed
                        in boxes. They are still packed in boxes, but a few are handy so I
                        pulled out Paul's old
                        Wisdom Notes and Illuminated Way Letters.

                        You seem to be right. Paul didn't use the word, Mahanta, until the
                        January 1969 Illuminated
                        Way Letter and the February 1969 Wisdom Note. Before then he mainly
                        used, The Master, Spiritual Traveler, Teacher, etc. Not even the
                        mention of Living ECK Master very often, although Outer Master and
                        living Master were mentioned often.

                        This is interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

                        You wrote: "You are also being untruthful when you say that you, "…
                        have no
                        desire to interfere with the beliefs of anyone."

                        And how would you know that? You seem to know my own desires and
                        intentions
                        better than I do. Clearly I will need to ask you next time what my
                        intentions and
                        desires are.

                        This is foolishness. Do you realize how hard it is to know the desires
                        of your own children?
                        How often do parents misunderstand what their children are trying to
                        do? Have you never had this happen to you when you were a child? Yet
                        you think you can actually guess my desires, when you don't even know
                        me? Have we even met?

                        Why do people spend so much time imagining they KNOW the intentions of
                        those they
                        disagree with?

                        I see this with ECKists just as often as with David Lane and the group
                        here. So, I'm not picking on this group. I see it as a real trap and an
                        excuse to justify rejecting what another person has to say.

                        You wrote: "You also claim to "have enjoyed the conversations on this
                        bulletin board" and yet
                        you only respond to selective questions."

                        That's right. That was what I came here to share, after Ford claimed
                        that I was not after the kind of truth that could be discussed openly
                        and that my book was not about encouraging open dialogue. I came here
                        for just that kind of dialogue, but guess what? No one here wants to
                        discuss the facts or the errors openly.

                        If I were Ford, I would care enough to make sure the facts I was using
                        were accurate.
                        I thought, especially as a lawyer, he would want to know.

                        You wrote: "You attempt to confuse (like Paul and Harold) by twisting
                        and abusing truth
                        in order to blind the reader with your distortions and illusions of
                        reality."

                        If you really believe this, then why not point out a quote where you
                        feel this is what I am attempting to do, rather than making broad
                        accusations about my motivations? Why not just address directly what
                        what I am saying and point out how you see it differently? I have no
                        intention of twisting the truth in anyway at all.

                        You wrote: "Is what Harold's teaches (Eckankar) a myth?

                        "Since I brought the subject up can you tell me if the Holocaust was a
                        myth or not?

                        "Some things ARE black and white so just give a yes or no answer to the
                        previously mentioned two questions. Please, no long-winded explanation,
                        yes or no to each question."

                        Sorry, I don't do yes or no answers, but I'll be glad to discuss your
                        questions. Yes, I would say a lot of what is taught about Eckankar is a
                        myth. Yes, I think a lot of what people think about the Holocaust is
                        made up of myth as well. This doesn't mean that the Holocaust didn't
                        happen, or that many of the stories or facts are lies. It just means
                        that people often try to simplify things.

                        History is largely made up of myth. There are a million personal
                        individual stories about World War II, for example, yet the history
                        books treat it as one thing that happened. The people who go through it
                        don't see it the way the history books do. They were there, but the
                        myths are what we can deal with to understand. Otherwise it is too
                        complex.

                        You wrote: "Doug, instead of focusing on David Lane or Ford's book
                        let's now focus on the writings of Twitchell and Klemp and see where we
                        can find inaccuracies, or is the world still flat to you? Did you like
                        the posting from the May-June-July 1971 Mystic World about Twitchell?
                        "No one really knows for sure where he came from, when he was born, or
                        if his true name is even Paul Twitchell. How long he has been on this
                        Earth planet is not known." Or, how about this quote from the same
                        article, "Paul is known to the world as Peddar Zaskq, which is his real
                        name, is an occidental." Wasn't this also his name for his last
                        incarnation and his spiritual name?"

                        Obviously we now know where he came from and was born (Paducah,
                        Kentucky) and that his true name was not Paul Twitchell, but was John
                        Paul Twitchell. We also now know when he was born (1909). Paul
                        certainly didn't ever talk about these things, nor would he answer
                        questions about them directly, and I think he liked the idea that his
                        past was mysterious, and he helped to create this mysterious past. Yes,
                        Paul is only known to the world as Peddar Zaskq because he told the
                        world that was his spiritual name.

                        And yes, this is the kind of writing that is mythological. Did you
                        think I would say something else?

                        You went on: "Let's now go back up to the preceding paragraph since you
                        seem to claim to like "facts" (why don't you give your sources?). "But
                        it is a fact that his Master Rebazar Tarzs, an ancient Tibetan lama,
                        who appears to be in his early forties, was a young man when Columbus
                        discovered America." Now, was that really a "fact," or a delusional
                        belief, or a deliberate lie? Or, is it that, "There is a need of the
                        people to believe in the magic of a saviour, and Sri Paul Twitchell
                        knows this and acts out the part" (same article)."

                        It certainly is no fact, since there are no records nor anything else
                        to prove that Rebazar Tarzs even exists, never mind how old he really
                        is. However, there is no proof that it is a lie, either. It certainly
                        sounds far-fetched. But I don't think the belief in saints, saviors and
                        spiritual teachers comes from the desire to believe in magic. I think
                        it comes from the innate memory within Soul that there is a truth and
                        meaning to life that most of the world seems to have forgotten, but
                        some remember.

                        As Rumi once said, the reason that false gold is so popular is because
                        there is such a thing
                        as real gold.

                        Of course, mixed with this is that many people want a father figure, or
                        want someone to take
                        care of them and tell them what is right and wrong.

                        You wrote: "The sad thing is that there is no freedom in religion…
                        there is only control through the use of fear and surrender of the
                        common sense of having an open mind, and of course, the dangled carrot
                        of initiation and hope."

                        It certainly seems that way. To me, without freedom there is no point
                        to a spiritual teaching. It is simply a social group. There is more
                        peer pressure and more influence from the people who want everyone to
                        be harmonious rather than speaking honestly, than control from above,
                        but in general I agree with you.

                        You wrote: "Paul states, "Ramaji was one of the first initiates in the
                        ancient Order of the Vairagi." It seems Paul has a problem spelling his
                        name. "Ji" is a Hindu suffix used to denote respect and affection. But,
                        Paul is not speaking of Rama."

                        Why do you think that Paul is referring to someone different than Rama?
                        The Hindus often add the "ji" to the end of a name, and sometimes it is
                        written with only the "j". Take the name Shamus-i-Tabriz. Generally
                        this is spelled, Shams of Tabriz. Same person. Jalalludin Rumi is
                        spelled dozens of ways. Sometimes he is also called Mevlana. Same
                        person. Sometimes it is written Shabda Yoga, sometimes Shabd Yog.
                        Sometimes Yoga is spelled Joga. I interpret this quote from Paul to be
                        referring to the same person as Rama, but if you feel otherwise I would
                        find it interesting to hear why.

                        You asked: "By the way, why has Harold evaded giving his birth date and
                        age?"

                        I don't know. Probably because it is a personal fact that has nothing
                        to do with his role. But maybe it is just a hold-over from Paul. You
                        would have to ask him. My guess is that he doesn't want people holding
                        birthday parties because of his birthdate.

                        You wrote: "Also, why is it Doug that on page 282 that Harold, the
                        mahanta, doesn't even know today about an experience he had in1970. He
                        states, "Was he really an ECK Master? Who can say?" Shouldn't the
                        Master who is greater than the God of all religions know such things?"

                        I would have to read the whole quote in context. It sounds to me as if
                        Harold is asking a rhetorical question. In other words, who can say if
                        he was a Master then?

                        Actually the question I ask is how did Darwin know that he was the
                        Mahanta, or how does Harold know this? Isn't this like any initiate who
                        might think they have gained the next initiation? Isn't this the same
                        question? How do they really know?

                        You ask: "Are the initiations in Eckankar valid as a means to greater
                        spiritual growth over those who are non-eckists? Or, is this a myth
                        too?"

                        I think the initiations are a mixed bag. There is definitely reality to
                        them, from my personal experience. But they have become filled with
                        myths as well. I can tell you that real Self-Realization is rare, HI or
                        not. The initiation level doesn't prove anything. It is more meaningful
                        as a personal matter than a comparison to others. I don't think anyone
                        should be judging another person's worth or truth by what initiation
                        level they are at. Including the Master.

                        You asked: "Paul states on page 136 of Difficulties Of Becoming The
                        Living ECK Master, "Cause with all of that, see, I write books in
                        series. I have four books that are finished now; well, the Shariyat is
                        a continued writing, but I've got three books actually." So Doug,
                        where's book three? If it wasn't finished why didn't Harold go to the
                        Astral Library to finish it?"

                        Paul wrote a number of the first chapters to book three. I think he got
                        to chapter three or four. That's as far as it has gotten. I think that
                        Harold thought about completing book three but for some reason decided
                        it wasn't his place to do so. I would be surprised if Harold ever
                        finishes book three, or tries to. But you would have to ask him if you
                        wanted to know.

                        You wrote: "Was the "Moon Virus" that Twitchell warned of a myth or a
                        self-promotional lie,
                        or did he make an erroneous assumption or was it just conjecture (page
                        234 of "Difficulties")? Show me where Kirpal Singh's name is used with
                        Sudar Singh's?"

                        I have no idea where Paul got the idea of the Moon Virus from. He
                        certainly used it to gain some news. It is similar in some ways to the
                        HIV virus in the way it has stumped the scientists, but I have heard no
                        connection to the moon.

                        Here is the first quote of Paul's where he mentions Sudar Singh, from
                        the January 1964 Orion
                        magazine:

                        "I began my study of bilocation under the tutelage of Satguru Sudar
                        Singh, in Allahabad, India. Later, I switched to Sri Kirpal Singh of
                        old Delhi. Both were teaching the Shabda Yoga, that which is called
                        the Yoga of Sound Current. I had to learn to leave my body at will and
                        return, without effort..."

                        Here is another quote from my book:

                        "I have since found two other early articles of Paul's, that show the
                        same thing: An article that ran in early 1966 called, Can You Be In Two
                        Places At The Same Time?, shows Sudar Singh, from Allahabad, India,
                        along with Bernard of England, a Self-Realization Swami who has a
                        retreat in Maryland, Kirpal Singh of Delhi, India, and Rebazar Tarzs, a
                        Tibetan monk.

                        "The second article was called, The God Eaters, and ran in the November
                        1964 issue of The Psychic Observer. In the article Paul talks about
                        Rebazar Tarzu [sic], who he "made contact with...through bilocation,"
                        and Kirpal Singh as his teachers. These examples clearly show that both
                        Sudar Singh and Rebazar Tarzs were referred to, side by side with
                        Kirpal Singh. It was not until late 1966 before Paul suddenly stopped
                        referring to Kirpal Singh."

                        You wrote: "You mention that you talked to Patti Simpson and basically
                        she says it was "funny" how Paul would evade giving out information on
                        himself. You wrote that Paul tried to leave information blank "when it
                        came to filling out official forms," but found that, "they would gladly
                        accept whatever he wrote whether it was right or wrong." In truth,
                        Paul intentionally lied and mislead people. Ironically, this is one
                        "fact" that you have supplied to help prove the validity of David
                        Lane's claim! This is also proof that you don't even listen to your own
                        words! Perhaps, this is because your conscious subjective (self) is to
                        evade, and your unconscious objective Self (God-Soul) is to impart
                        truth."

                        If you want to imagine that, go ahead. I think there is a big
                        difference between someone who is intentionally trying to mislead
                        people about their age, and a person who refuses to give out their age.
                        But if you want to say that both are technically lies, that's fine with
                        me. It seems to me that you are just trying to make it look like
                        something it isn't.

                        Remember, the picture that David painted is that Paul lied to Gail
                        about his age, as he had lied about his age his whole life. In fact,
                        Gail knew perfectly well that Paul wasn't giving out his age, and so
                        did everyone else. Pretty different picture if you ask me.

                        Here's a similar example. David was accused of copyright infringment
                        many years ago (ironic, isn't it?). It was over a book written about J
                        R Hinkins group. Under oath he said one thing. In his deposition, also
                        under oath, he said the opposite. The judge politely said that his
                        testimony was untrustworthy. David claims that he was not trying to
                        lie, he just didn't remember it correctly. However, the testimony shows
                        that the first story he told seemed like the one that would best help
                        his case. Later it turned out to be exactly the wrong thing, so when
                        asked the same question in court, he answered the opposite way. He lost
                        his case over this.

                        Would you call that lying? David doesn't. I'll take David's word for it
                        that he just forgot, even though it looks otherwise. I guess that's
                        just how I am.

                        You wrote: "Doug you have imagined facts through your own distorted
                        belief system of myth being reality. You seem to be confused as you
                        spread confusion to others (somewhat like Typhoid Mary).You have no
                        idea of what fact or truth is because you are unable to hear truth."

                        Mighty big claims. Why not just show me the quotes where you think I'm
                        off base and share how you see it? Why imagine that I am unable to see
                        truth?

                        I'm sure I see it differently than you do. But I have few illusions
                        about Paul. My point was to show how many illusions that David had,
                        while claiming otherwise. Ford's book has got them now, too, since he
                        was taken in by David's story. The irony is that those who are most
                        concerned about pointing out the lies and illusions of others are often
                        just as unwilling to admit and correct their own.

                        However, if you feel that I've made any errors, please point them out.
                        David caught a few, and I immediately corrected them. I would like to
                        make my book as accurate as possible, and I'm in the process of making
                        another edit to include the latest information, since we are always
                        learning new things.

                        Thanks for asking specific questions. More of this would make a real
                        dialogue worthwhile.
                        And I am glad to share the specific evidence behind my comments if
                        anyone is interested.

                        Doug.

                        Degar
                        02/08/2004
                        Top

                        Be The Now!!

                        If you are a follower of the Clear Light and Silent Sound, then you
                        follow the natural order of who you really are as Beingness. The secret
                        between the truth and the lie, is intention. Intention is the prime
                        mover of awareness. How many really see themselves as the observer and
                        the observed, the now, the present. Look only to the temple within
                        yourself, no church, building or outer temple will ever point the way.
                        In fact remove or demolish all these objects of glory, pride and self
                        righteousness for in the heart of the now resides the gift. "Remind all
                        those that show you the way to the false temple of mortar and brick
                        that you have out grown their cage and See now with the Spiritual eye
                        only Truth."

                        NO RELIGION can hold GOD to a given doctrine! Even the doctrine of
                        Light and Sound…..

                        Freedom can not be bound and Freedom will destroy all that try to hold
                        it.

                        Man is a funny creature, he seeks the company of the one and only
                        primal cause even until death. He is even willing to kill to be near to
                        it. He believes that distance exists between himself and his Maker and
                        he must make a journey back to the Godhead. Knock, knock, is anyone
                        home? Soul exists because it is GOD. God has never posed the question,
                        "I love Soul". Your Higher Self JUST IS, no more
                        - no less.

                        Wake up!

                        Dance, Sing and Be.

                        "All thing must pass away" – George Harrison

                        Hold on to the social consciousness if you must but as Ford and Gram
                        are saying they only
                        opened the door you must walk through and see Freedom for yourself. Not
                        their truth, but yours.

                        After the Temple of Eck was built, I made a number of visits to it. On
                        one of my visits I noticed that the temples main entrance floor was
                        cracked right down the middle. Eckankar had it repaired, so no one had
                        any idea what had happened. If that had occurred in my life, I would
                        have asked what Spirit was saying to me? Well I did….. What it told me
                        was that the office(ORG) and the temple side(Spiritual) had a major
                        division between them. Another way of seeing it was that the true
                        teachings of Eck were no longer within the organization.

                        Fear is the last thing to go…… Pure awareness of consciousness can only
                        be experienced
                        without fear.

                        The events unfolding before us have the blessing of the Holy Order of
                        the World Adepts
                        or it would not be.

                        This is not an end to something, but more of a beginning.

                        Degar *

                        Kermit
                        02/08/2004
                        Top

                        Solipsist Reprieve: My Story -- Why I Left Eckankar

                        Soul, if It exists, could have entered into the agreement to share the
                        Eckankar dream. The purpose may have been for spiritual experience: to
                        advance spiritually and learn to be of service in a better and higher
                        way and to consciously learn a few other things, like the nature of
                        illusion and deception. But if I believe that soul exists, then I am
                        asking for another round of belief lessons. I had spiritual
                        experiences, but how do I know that they are real now? All I know is
                        that I am here now and even those two adverbs are suspect.

                        Now it is the age of Aquarius and the Piscean age is over. Some
                        astrologers say that the religions of the intercessor between man and
                        God were an aspect of the Piscean phase. It is a strong aspect of the
                        Aquarian age that the veils of the intercessors be lifted. And it
                        implies a dark night for the wizard who commands his followers to
                        "ignore that man behind the curtain." It is a bright day for expose'
                        writers. Since reading the book, I have seen other works that expose
                        Christianity and Judaism. All the political books are pointing out
                        lies told by the governments and the other party and the history books.
                        For the Christians out there: your version of "Confessions" may be the
                        works of Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. Lies and damn lies. All
                        religions are of the cloth of deception, regardless of whose face is on
                        the master.

                        So it appears that Eckankar has decided to maintain its position as a
                        spiritual middle school. We all saw this coming, felt it in many ways
                        and Ford articulated it for our minds in a way that we could no longer
                        ignore. We knew about David Lane and some of the plagiarism years ago
                        and chose to forgive it. We wondered why Rebazar couldn't appear for a
                        TV spot, if he was so physical. We were uncomfortable about Darwin
                        being written out of history. The restrictive guidelines.

                        When I went to receive my fifth initiation, the internal phrase kept
                        repeating: "The bloom is off the rose. . . the bloom is off the rose."
                        I wondered what that meant, but the meaning is emerging. The days of
                        believing in Santa Clause are past. Time to take the next step in
                        becoming emancipated. Joseph Campbell said that his studies gave him
                        an overview of the myths and religions that precluded his having any
                        spiritual experiences himself. It is like the old saying that he who
                        carved the Buddha cannot worship it.

                        But I had just finished the book and was casting about and asked spirit
                        if it was true. The image of an animated Rebazar peered headfirst into
                        my inner vision and then started to mirror every movement I made. I
                        had never had an experience with him, but the message was that I was
                        doing it and so I might as well quit struggling against the curriculum.
                        "No more Mother Goose stories for you and you can pretty much forget
                        about the tooth fairy," it told me.

                        Now I suspect why Harold is always telling fairy tales. I see an image
                        now of Paul laughing, after telling his audience that only a handful of
                        them would understand what he was trying to say. What if he was trying
                        to say that only deception exists in the world of illusion? Is Harold
                        hinting that the teachings are a fairy tale used to teach a different
                        lesson?

                        Masters and lying liars do not come clean. But there may be more to
                        this learning than is apparent. What if Harold had told us that he had
                        discovered the truth about the whole sham and just said,

                        "Well, you can call me Harold or you can call me Gerald, but you
                        doesn't have to call me Sri anymore." Would that have been masterful?
                        I do not know, but he didn't say that. He built a temple instead.

                        One of the wake-up calls for me was an Ask-the-Master session for RESAs
                        in one of the recent books. Those guys didn't know anything. They
                        were asking questions and Harold was describing worlds and temples and
                        I would like to think that RESAs should have been able to access that
                        information themselves, if the path was working.

                        But no mastership is happening here. With Eckankar producing only two
                        and a half masters in almost 38 years, I was starting to worry that I
                        wasn't on the short list, anyway. We're all better than we were and we
                        are better public speakers, but that is not what we came for.

                        We came onto the path because it promised mastership/enlightenment.
                        One of the unspoken truths is that we don't have a chance of reaching
                        it by way of Eckankar. It has been boiling us like frogs: slowly. By
                        the time we have been around long enough to know that no one is going
                        to go beyond the 8th initiation, except one guy, our minds are no
                        longer independent enough to get that this path to mastership is not
                        working and it not going to work.

                        Now we have talked ourselves out of a way of life. Harold would
                        probably say we have talked ourselves into a Dark Night of Soul. But
                        that's the kind of beating we would be in for if we stayed around.

                        I took a class with a lot of law enforcement types at one time. They
                        said that everyone, except the most committed sociopath, has a need to
                        tell the truth. The body language, tonal patterns and eye movements
                        combine with other unconscious clues to betray a lie or a concealed
                        truth. One way to conceal and deceive is to tell nothing but lies like
                        Kevin Spacey's character in "The Usual Suspects." This may be how Paul
                        Twitchell did it. There is a book about this subject called "Telling
                        Lies" by Paul Ekman. It has been staring at me from my bookshelf for
                        years and it has gradually dawned on me that the title and author may
                        contain a hint.

                        My inner voice says that there is only the one I Am that smears itself
                        across the living tapestry and reabsorbs itself after one lifetime or
                        many. So this baby is going out with the bath water.

                        Thanks for tipping the scales.

                        Kermit

                        Journey
                        02/07/2004
                        Top

                        Reply to GPk: On Unloving Attitudes

                        Dear GPk,

                        As to your unloving and lack of understanding attitude, I based that on
                        what you said, especially in regards to your unkind words to Usually
                        Skeptical.
                        You also seem to be putting down people who are posting here on this
                        message board. You continue to direct negative comments to others on
                        this site. You come across as a very angry person so I am not
                        surprised that my comments bothered you so much. You confused me
                        because you sound like you are still an Eckist in your attacks.

                        You are wrong in assuming I'm stuck/holding on to the teachings of
                        Eckankar. I was not a member that long, but I read all of Harold's
                        transcripts and several other books, attended Satsang classes, etc.
                        From the get-go, it seemed like a lot of double talk and
                        confusing--lots of contradictions. Your postings also attack Ford in
                        that you said he was going to become the leader of a new religion, that
                        would be no different from any other group. I think you are the one
                        hung up on Eckankar. I am glad you are reading Ford's book. Then, I
                        think your comments here would be made with a better perspective,
                        regardless of your take on Ford's writings.

                        It is obvious that the only self awareness that you have ever achieved
                        has been of the little self. You seem to be still experiencing the
                        brain washing of Eckankar. The comments that you have made indicate
                        that you are only aware of the little self, rather than the higher
                        self. Your initiation did not give you self-realization. This is the
                        flaw I see in your reasoning. But this is all understandable because of
                        the length of time you spent in the Eckankar organization--you have
                        more to dump than I do. There is a massive amount of flawed concepts
                        along with certain truths that have been mixed to such a degree that it
                        is almost impossible to decipher it all. In addition to anger, there is
                        fear that there is no truth out there--that you will not be able to
                        find it. This is, perhaps, the root of your negativity that you have
                        lashed out on this site. This is my understanding.

                        Also, I have not touted the degree of my spirituality as you have. I am
                        only a Truth Seeker.

                        Best regards and good reading,
                        Journey

                        Willy
                        02/07/2004
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                        FS Response To Ecki99 Plus 2 Laws

                        Thanks for the thorough response to the questions raised by Ecki99 and
                        others. As one other book (Christian Bible) often quoted notes "by
                        their fruits ye shall know them". Why do so many Eckists see the
                        activities of HCS and former members of Eckankar as a threat? There
                        are no lawsuits filed, there are no media exposes, there is just the
                        statement of spiritual truths as experienced by those who have taken
                        the next step. There is no massive attempt to force Eck chelas to
                        leave their path, if that is where they are comfortable. To each his
                        own.

                        Harold has made much of Richard Maybury's two laws namely:

                        1. Do all you say you will do. (Your word is your bond, honor it.)
                        2. Do not encroach on others or their property. (Respect the integrity
                        of others.)

                        I really like these two laws, since they contain so much of spiritual
                        truth in so few words. And this world would surely be a much better
                        place if they were practiced by more people as individuals, by nations,
                        and by spiritual paths. Perhaps the organization of Eckankar and its
                        leaders should consider how well they are honoring these two laws,
                        especially in regard to former members and also in regard to current
                        members.

                        FS
                        02/07/2004
                        Top

                        Response to Eckie_99: The Real Impact of Eckankar Mythology and The
                        Role of HCS

                        Dear eckie_99

                        I may be starting to look predictable with the way I present my views
                        to this website, but, as many of the questions put to this site are in
                        defence of eckankar mythology, then one way of replying to these
                        questions is to use the very mythology that is being defended in order
                        to express the truer side of eckankar, the side the mahanta does not
                        want to be seen. This reply therefore will be no exception. I feel sure
                        that this will meet with your approval., seeing as I am using the
                        constructed, contrived, compilations of the master compiler, one Paul
                        Twitchell.

                        I quote your own words:

                        b. A Person who builds a framework that can help people grow
                        spiritually, and shows it to the world, to be judged on its own merits.

                        There is one point that you have failed to address in your defence of
                        eckankar being a framework that can help people grow, and that is, `The
                        growth of people spiritually within the framework of eckankar is
                        dependant on Harold's acceptance as to what he sees as spiritual
                        growth, or more accurately stated, what he is prepared to accept as
                        `Truth`. I will therefore show to the world, and to you, another side
                        of how this framework of eckankar really operates in helping the
                        individual grow spiritually, and let the world judge it on its own
                        merits. Firstly, let the world see some of the teachings of eckankar
                        that will be relevant to this reply.

                        Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                        " Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and
                        the tests given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears.
                        Every Spiritual Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela
                        to call upon the Master. If the vision fails to reply then it is
                        false".

                        Shariyat, book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                        "Be on guard, lest he who seeks without the Vi-Guru finds those who
                        only appear as the Holy One, claiming to be angels, or saints. Let
                        none deceive the chela. If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he
                        cannot be deceived by the kal Niranjan. If he has not the armour of
                        Spirit, he can be misled".

                        Shariyat, book 1, page 149. Third Printing 1972:
                        "The ECKist knows that the presence of the Living ECK Master is always
                        with him. He is never alone".

                        What is presented here to the world, and yourself , is the truth of my
                        own experience while within this framework of eckankar and its leader,
                        the mahanta. Here is part of my letter to Harold Klemp in regards to my
                        journal of recorded inner experiences that was sent to him while
                        following this framework of eckankar, that you say, " can help people
                        grow spiritually",

                        "All that is contained within the journal has withstood the tests of
                        the secret words that are
                        required to be used to prove their validity and all that you are about
                        to read, I stand by as true."

                        Now friend, let the world see what the teachings of eckankar say about
                        the inner experiences
                        of a chela and how they are viewed within this framework.

                        "The Shariyat book 2, pages 50-51: Second Edition 1988:
                        "No ECK Master will acknowledge his appearance to another person.
                        This is neither modesty nor is it a feeling of hiding something; in a
                        sense he is letting the individual decide for themselves whether it was
                        really him. He wants them to decide if it was reality. In this way he
                        is not telling, nor confirming his presence with them in the Atma
                        Sarup, but allowing them the independence of knowing and understanding
                        whether it was actually him.

                        If a person makes up his mind that the living ECK Master really
                        appeared to him, then he knows it and this cannot be taken away from
                        him, regardless. However, if he has to be told that it was the ECK
                        Master, then he is always in doubt, for it was an outside source which
                        gave him his information and not himself. It is superficial knowledge
                        and not from his own inner source.

                        He must always remember that the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master is not
                        the one to tell him of his inner experiences, nor whether the ECK
                        Master has appeared to him. But he must know this with a faith that is
                        beyond anything that he has experienced and, therefore, it will stay
                        with him. Otherwise it may fade in time, and the experiencer soon
                        forgets whether it was really the ECK Master".

                        Now let the world see the reply from the leader of this framework of
                        eckankar that helps
                        the individual to grow spiritually.

                        Reply from Harold Klemp in regards to my journal of inner experiences
                        while a chela under
                        his claimed protection as the mahanta.

                        "In response to your letter and journal of inner experiences which led
                        you to think you have
                        received the Rod of Eck Power. You have not.

                        Your instincts were right not to believe this. The Kal misled you."

                        Let it be explained to the world, and your own good self, that there
                        was never any claim made to me having had received the rod of eck
                        power, only that it was a possibility. Therefore, before we go any
                        further, Harold Klemp is wrong in his statement. Now we must look at
                        his other words, those of `The Kal Misled You`. Now friend, after
                        being told I was misled by the kal, even though I have Harold's
                        assurance that, `If he who seeks is a chela of a Vi-Guru, he cannot be
                        deceived by the KAL Niranjan.`. he then fails to explain how this could
                        have happened and failed to give any further guidance as to what I
                        could do to prevent it happening again, although as we can see by the
                        promise of this framework, I should never have been misled in the first
                        place.

                        Having now told me I was mistaken, Harold then goes on to lay the
                        karmic responsibility upon me for being responsible for leading others
                        off the path of eck.

                        "This happens more often than one would care to believe. People who
                        fall for this trick and
                        mislead others off the path of eck become responsible for the karma."

                        Let the world and yourself take note of these words, for we are told
                        something very interesting here; "This happens more often than one
                        would care to believe." Are not these words very thought provoking? Is
                        Harold admitting that being misled by the kal while within this
                        framework of eckankar,and, having his protection of the Vi-Guru, being
                        misled by the kal is a common occurance? If this is so, then the
                        claimed protection of the vi-guru must be failing to work. Not only
                        that, the secret words must also be failing. Let the world see what
                        eckankar has to say about the protection of its secret words:

                        Shariyat book 1, page 14. Third Printing 1972:
                        "Without the clear vision of the Vi-Guru- he who is the Master- and
                        the tests given by him, one cannot be assured of what he sees or hears.
                        Every Spiritual Traveller, or Vi-Guru will give the Word to the chela
                        to call upon the Master. If the vision fails to reply then it is
                        false".

                        Let it go on record that the visions within the journal's inner
                        experiences did reply and that I used the Word, and Words as is asked
                        of the chela. Some of these words being Sugmad, Wah Z, HU, Mahanta, or
                        any of the names of the masters of the vairagi.

                        Here I think we should let the world know just how important this
                        figure of the mahanta, the vi-guru really is, otherwise they may not
                        fully realise just how powerful the mahanta truly is?

                        Shariyat book 2 page 196. Second Edition 1988:
                        "The eck works are the most powerful in this world; and the mahanta,
                        the living eck master, who is the vehicle and channel for the eck, is
                        the most powerful being within the physical world, as well as the
                        planets and all the planes within the worlds of God."

                        Shariyat, book 1 says on page 81. Third Printing 1972:
                        "He is stronger than any man in intellect or spirit, for he has
                        unlimited power, and yet this strength is combined with the noble
                        virtues of the humble and gentle. All people find in him inspiration
                        for the development of noble character".

                        Shariyat, book 2 page 184 Second Edition 1988:
                        "The Mahanta, the Living ECK Master has other titles. He is the
                        Godman, the Vi-Guru, the Light Giver, protector of the poor, the king
                        of heaven, saviour of mankind, the scourge of evil, and the defender of
                        the faithful. He is the real and only power in all the universes of
                        God. No one can harm him without his consent, for all that is done to
                        him is given permission by the ECK, with his consent".

                        To help further my spiritual growth within this framework of eckankar,
                        the mahanta now goes on to say:

                        "As a spiritual discipline you are put back to the First Circle of
                        initiation and are to stand aside from all eck duties for the present."

                        We can show the world that this is also against what the framework of
                        eckankar teaches:

                        Dialogues With The Master page 172:
                        First Printing 1990 "Remember this that those who demand respect and
                        love of others to themselves are only exercising the negative or
                        attracting power. The true teachings do not discipline in any way; do
                        not set up duties or difficulties or tasks for teaching their
                        disciples."

                        This framework also tells the world, and its followers, that the
                        teacher will bring about any changes needed within a chela without any
                        pain or difficulties.

                        Illuminated Way Letters 1966-1971 page 54 Copyright 1975 by Gail
                        Twitchell Gross:
                        "It is doubtful that the teacher will sit with his chela and discuss
                        any character faults of the aspirant. Hardly ever will the teachers
                        tell anyone what is wrong with himself, but he will concentrate on the
                        error and bring about the change from the inner to the outer world,
                        without pain or difficulty to the chelas, very often without the chela
                        having any conscious awareness of it."

                        Dear friend, and the world. I am fully aware of what this framework of
                        eckankar has done to me, I am also fully aware of what this framework
                        has done to many others, and this is the reason why the framework of
                        the H.C.S. was brought about. It was brought about to help those who
                        have suffered the injustice of eckankar at the hands of its
                        mythological mahanta and to give them support and a free voice.

                        We can now look to another aspect of this frameworks teachings, if not
                        its practice, that of calling upon the master when the chela finds
                        themselves in any difficulty:

                        I was now left with no other recourse to attain further guidance other
                        than to write to the mahanta at the physical level. As yet, nothing has
                        been given. Now for the eckankar apologists they can say, "Get It On
                        The Inner", but, and this is very very very important, how can the
                        individual `Get It On The Inner` when the mahanta has just told the
                        individual that all they have received on the inner is the misleadings
                        of the kal? That the chela has the right to call upon the mahanta is
                        given in the frameworks teachings. Not only has the chela the right to
                        call upon the mahanta, but the mahanta is bound by his duty to answer
                        each and every call of this nature. Let the world see the following
                        exhibit:

                        Illuminated Way Letters, 1966-1971, PAGE 130 Copyright 1975 by Gail
                        Twitchell Gross: "Whenever the chela experiences any difficulty with
                        himself such as falling into the negative trap, or even with Soul
                        Travel, he should call upon the Master to assist him, or conduct him as
                        the soul traveller to the spiritual worlds. For the Living ECK Master
                        is bound by his mission to answer each and every call of this nature".

                        Let it go on record, that the mahanta has failed in his duty, both to
                        give the inner protection that his framework promises to give, and that
                        he has also failed to assist a chela when called upon to do so. Now
                        the world can see what the framework of eckankar says about a master
                        failing in his duty:

                        Shariyat, book 2, page 219. Second Edition 1988:
                        "If he falters or fails; it is possible that he may be taken out of
                        this position; and if he falters in his responsibility while serving as
                        the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master, it is possible that he must step
                        down for another to take his place".

                        Unlike the mahanta, I am prepared to let all see the contents of my
                        journal and come to their own understanding, and, unlike the mahanta,
                        I am prepared to answer any questions that others may wish to ask. The
                        framework of the H.C.S. has provided this facility for openness and
                        free speech, the framework of eckankar has provided only threats to
                        those who voice dissension and doubt.

                        Shariyat, book 1, page 91. Third Printing 1972:
                        "To ridicule, to scorn, to speak mockingly of the word of the Mahanta,
                        and not to have faith in him and the cause of ECK is to bring woes on
                        the advocator of doubt. It brings his karmic progress to a halt,
                        increases his incarnations in this world, and causes him to suffer
                        untold hardships".

                        Even if a chela, or chela's tries to broach a question that is not
                        wanted by the framework of
                        eckankar and its leader, its teachings provide a guidance for the party
                        faithful of how to view
                        this dissesion within the ranks.

                        Shariyat, book 2, pages 25-26. Second Edition 1988:
                        " It must be remembered that all complaints and all arguments against
                        the ECK, which are directed at the Mahanta, are the works of the Kal.
                        Such assaults on the Mahanta are those which originate from the Kal
                        using the minds and consciousness of those persons within its power to
                        destroy the Mahanta and the ECK, if at all possible. These are the
                        works of the Kal, who uses religion, ministers, and lay persons to
                        bring about the downfall of the ECK, because it is the truth. There
                        will be those who call themselves ECK Masters and disguise themselves
                        under the robes of the ECK, but they are prophets with false faces who
                        are lying to the ECKist`s , but few if any who are true followers of
                        the ECK are ever deceived by these agents of the Kal".

                        What Harold Klemp and the eckankar organisation have chosen to ignore
                        is that truth, a truth that can be proven, is not an assault upon the
                        mahanta, it is an assault upon that which is untrue. If Harold Klemp as
                        the mahanta and the eckankar organisation see, and feel, that this as
                        an assault upon them, then it can only be because they have something
                        to hide. Truth knows no fear, so why does the framework of eckankar
                        hide behind a wall of silence, instead of making a stand upon its
                        proclaimed truth in order to defend the truth of the sugmad and its
                        faithful followers?

                        Let those who have the eyes to see and the ears to ear reach their own
                        verdict from the `Facts` provided by the framework of eckankar itself ,
                        and its application of its teachings by the mahanta. `By Their Actions
                        Ye Shall Know Them`

                        Dear friend, and the world, I rest my case.

                        Usually Skeptical
                        02/07/2004
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                        Response to eckie_99: I Took Your Test and Got An "A" !

                        Dear ekie,

                        Well, I looked at your test questions and have the answers... !.)

                        1.)
                        Q- What is more ethically incorrect?
                        A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold

                        2.)
                        Q- Who is less truthful?
                        A- "C" Liars such as Paul, Darwin, and Harold (that was just like #1!)

                        3.)
                        Q- Who is spiritually more developed?
                        A- "C" Those who are not afraid to see and hear truth

                        4.)
                        Q- What is a bigger spiritual crime?
                        A- "C" Not to give people the opportunity to know and choose truth over
                        lies

                        That wasn't so hard after all... was it!

                        I graded it myself and got 100% correct!

                        Usually Skeptical

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18"
                        <etznab@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                        admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"
                        >
                        > Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original
                        links/threads for complete context.)
                        >
                        > To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is
                        still a long post though.
                        >
                        > (1)
                        >
                        > Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online
                        book:
                        >
                        > [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
                        self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day
                        I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in
                        the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his
                        home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was
                        trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The
                        Master.
                        >
                        > The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by
                        Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely
                        sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was
                        mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a
                        discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I
                        can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and
                        I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.
                        >
                        > So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had
                        ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested,
                        told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I
                        told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes
                        I was sorting through, but I would run ho<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Etznab and All, Yes, as you ve pointed out (below) both Marman and Klemp have similar versions about the facts concerning Twitchell s fictional account
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 8, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello Etznab and All,
                          Yes, as you've pointed
                          out (below) both Marman
                          and Klemp have similar
                          versions about the "facts"
                          concerning Twitchell's
                          fictional account of meeting
                          Rebazar Tarzs. Too bad
                          they overlooked Twitchell's
                          version, and the timeline
                          conflict, from his June,
                          1971 interviews which
                          are mentioned in "Difficulties
                          Of Becoming The Living
                          ECK Master":

                          [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]

                          "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                          Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                          1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                          Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                          Singh, who is not the same person at all.

                          "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                          whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                          all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                          more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                          initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                          "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                          just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                          report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                          Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."

                          [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                          Harold Klemp - see link]

                          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training

                          ********************************

                          Fact: Twitchell was born on Oct. 22, 1908
                          (According to Harold Klemp).

                          Fact: Twitchell states on page 45 of "Difficulties:"
                          "Sudar Singh... He died, I believe, if I'm correct,
                          1937; could have been a year or two off someway
                          there, but it was approximately in that year he
                          passed away. We [Paul and his sister Kay-Dee]
                          stayed there almost a year and were shipped
                          home because our parents were screaming bloody-
                          murder, and then finally they cut our money off
                          and we were forced to return."

                          ME: PT is, basically, saying that at 15 years of
                          age this was his 1st trip to India. More "facts"
                          to prove this are listed later.

                          Fact: Harold Klemp attended and graduated
                          from a private Lutheran all boys school and
                          seminary.

                          Fact: Twitchell states on page 47 of "Difficulties"
                          "... the same thing occurs in the seminaries of
                          the Christian church. These Christian seminaries,
                          when you're training boys to grow up, they are
                          looking for all the things which will explain to
                          them manhood or the problems of life. It can
                          create sexual aberrations... you can walk around
                          the corner of one of the ashrams or the monasteries
                          and find the boys there abusing themselves." (pg 47)

                          ME: It's possible, according to Twitchell, that
                          this "abuse" contributed to Klemp's mental
                          break-down circa 1969-70.

                          Fact: Twitchell states on page 48 of "Difficulties:"
                          "After I had left India, came home, I was then about
                          sixteen, I had a year or so to do some work in order
                          to finish my degree."

                          ME: PT Born 1908, plus, age 15 equals 1923.

                          Fact: Twitchell states on page 70 of "Difficulties:"
                          "Well, anyway, in about 1947, it was right shortly
                          after the Indians nation, India received their freedom
                          from England and then became a nation, and they
                          had the great riots and that was over with. I went
                          over to Darjeeling in the east section of India.
                          Darjeeling is up in the northeast of India, right on
                          the Sikkim border.... I went up there at the time
                          after being over in Allahabad, and there wasn't
                          much left there after Sudar Singh had passed away."

                          FYI: [Actually PT changed Kirpal Singh's name to
                          Sudar Singh, and Kirpal died two years after Paul
                          in 1973]

                          PT: "But then I went there and I'd been told
                          that I would find the ECK Master Rebazar Tarzs.
                          I've got something about that in one of my books,
                          I think it's Introduction to ECK in which I have it...
                          I stayed there for quite some time with him, six
                          to seven months... Now, he initiated me there.
                          I had already been initiated by Sudar Singh, the
                          same as everybody else, the second initiation.
                          And then I got the third and the fourth. I went
                          up through about the seventh at this particular
                          time.

                          Then he moved across over into Kashmir,
                          up in the Hindu Kush Mountains, and later
                          [1951] but not on this trip, I followed him
                          up there and got the finish of my initiations."
                          [page 71]


                          Timeline of Facts:

                          1923 - PT claims that he and his sister met
                          Sudar in Paris and traveled with him to India.
                          This was PT's 1st trip to India at age 15 and
                          received his 1st and 2nd initiations from Sudar
                          Singh.

                          1935 - Harold Klemp (on Eckankar.org) states
                          that Twitchell, at age 27, was "exaggerating"
                          and "twisting facts" to get into "Who's Who in
                          Kentucky," and that Twitchell had never traveled
                          all that far from home.

                          1947 - PT claims he had his 2nd trip to India
                          (at age 35) and received his 3rd-7th initiations
                          from Rebazar while staying with him for six
                          to seven months.

                          1951 - PT claims he went back to India (his
                          3rd trip at age 39) and received the "finish"
                          of his initiations from Rebazar Tarzs.

                          Did Twitchell "finish" with a 9th or a 12th
                          initiation in 1951?

                          Fact: In any case, the 14th Mahanta was never
                          mentioned by Twitchell until January 1969.

                          Fact: Harold Klemp states on eckankar.org
                          that at age 27 (1935) that Twitchell was
                          "exaggerating" and "twisting facts" to get
                          into Who's Who in Kentucky and that PT
                          had never traveled all that far from home
                          as he was claiming.

                          Factual Conclusion:

                          Twitchell lied about going to India to
                          meet Sudar Singh at age 15, plus, he
                          lied about this in 1971 as the "Mahanta"
                          just months before his untimely death.

                          And, PT continued the lie with the story
                          of meeting Rebazar in 1947. He connected
                          that lie to the one about getting his 1st
                          and 2nd initiations from Sudar, in India,
                          at the age of 15.

                          Thus, the story about meeting Rebazar,
                          again, on a third visit, circa 1951, to
                          "finish" his initiations is also a fabrication
                          of truth! Paul couldn't help himself. PT
                          was a habitual liar and a narcissist, and
                          for Klemp to point that out just shows
                          that HK was not only ignorant of the
                          timeline, but isn't all that capable/aware
                          of connecting the dots.

                          Plus, after Twitchell, supposedly,
                          received the "finish" of his initiations,
                          in 1951, it took until 1969 [18 years!]
                          for Twitchell to mention the "Mahanta"
                          for the first time in an ECK publication.
                          This is more proof that Twitchell created
                          the Mahanta just as he created Rebazar
                          and the other ECK Masters... it's all
                          a big fat lie! Even the Sant Mat crap
                          that Twitchell copied and tweaked
                          is a false teaching.

                          These facts are the main reason this
                          book, "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                          Living ECK Master" will never ever be
                          reprinted.... without heavy handed
                          reediting.

                          Prometheus


                          etznab@... wrote:
                          >
                          > What stood out to me most from the examples you listed was Doug
                          > Marman's use of the word "facts".
                          >
                          > In the examples I gave - especially when Doug addressed my questions
                          > about Rebazar Tarzs on a.r.e. - it seemed to me that in some respects
                          > "facts" were somehow "secondary" to spiritual experience.
                          >
                          > I thoiught about the a.r.e. thread last night trying to fathom what
                          > Doug was saying about Paul's stories and things said (some of them) not
                          > based on facts. And frankly, it still didn't jive with me. Off hand I
                          > can remember at least two places where Paul Twitchell illustrated that
                          > Rebazar Tarzs "told him" what to write. In one place (I believe)
                          > Rebazar Tarzs comes to Paul's room, wakes him up, tells him to take up
                          > the pencil and write. (I'm referring to Dialogues With The Master and
                          > The Far Country.) So how can Doug suggest those were Paul's words based
                          > on a spiritual experience?
                          > Paul wrote (in so many words) that Rebazar Tarzs came and materialized
                          > in his room, and in one instance (I believe) the mattress sank from the
                          > weight of R.T. sitting on it.
                          >
                          > It would be nice if everybody didn't go away, all those Eckists on the
                          > newsgroups, and if the string of dialogues could continue today. I say
                          > this because there is a lot more information and examples available to
                          > share where many of "Paul's words" read as plagiarized from various
                          > books by other authors - none of them by the name of Rebazar Tarzs, or
                          > other Eck masters.
                          >
                          > ***
                          >
                          > "They" didn't succeed at booting me from a.r.e., and I didn't "move on"
                          > as once suggested. To the contrary I continued to research the FACTS -
                          > whether anybody likeed it or not - and have reams of examples (which
                          > can be illustrated and verified by REAL evidence and FACTS) about many
                          > of the things people were chewing on and debating over for years before
                          > I arrived. Some of the examples I (and others) have since found are
                          > those that not even David Lane was aware of (I'm talking about examples
                          > of Paul's writings compared with other authors) and I think probably
                          > that Doug Marman was unaware of.
                          >
                          > So new information has come in since the D.L. / D.M. debates, etc. New
                          > FACTS are now known. How facts can be important in one instance and
                          > something else in another ... I am not sure what Doug was talking
                          > about.
                          >
                          > I recall from the newspapers that sometimes when something happens that
                          > embarrasses the government and people want to know who is responsible -
                          > such as torture of prisoners, etc. - those higher up in the ladder
                          > have responded with things like: The first time I heard about it was
                          > from the news / newspaper. Iow, people claim ignorance and that they
                          > didn't know about something until it became public via the news. Well,
                          > to admit otherwise - and that they did know about it (and for a long
                          > time) - would be damning to them and public opinion would have them on
                          > a spike!
                          >
                          > Now I recall that (for some reason) Harold Klemp doesn't use the
                          > Internet. I'm sure he reads the newspapers and watches the news, but
                          > how much about the trove of FACTS regarding Paul's writings compared
                          > with other authors - INCLUDING REBAZAR TARZS - is in the newspapers, or
                          > on the evening news? (Maybe it should be?) Much of the new information
                          > and research has been put on the Internet. That's where it is (also in
                          > some books). And even there, we've probably all seen how apologists can
                          > argue against certain information being true, try to marginalize people
                          > and their research, even to the extent of suggesting (in so many words)
                          > that facts don't matter. Or, it's not about facts.
                          >
                          > Well, I've seen where it looks like people want to have it both ways.
                          > Facts matter. Facts don't matter. As far as research goes, and besides
                          > the stories of "spiritual experiences" that people send in, When was
                          > the last time the Eckankar website posted something about people doing
                          > real research into the stories told by Paul Twitchell? (Not to mention
                          > "research" about the stories sent in by Eckists today?) It was 1984
                          > when Harold came out with all that stuff about Paul Twitchell and when
                          > Harold did research. I wonder if they continue to research, or if (for
                          > some reason) it stopped a long time ago?
                          >
                          > Oh yeah, I remember it now.
                          >
                          > "[....] A few years after Harold became the Master [1984?], he began
                          > researching and going through Paul's old files. That was after Darwin
                          > turned Paul's library over to Harold. It certainly would be true to say
                          > that Harold saw a side of Paul he had not seen before, as did I [Doug
                          > Marman] when Harold gave me permission to look through the records.
                          > Paul's files gave some interesting insights into Paul's past, which
                          > Paul never spoke about. So Harold began to make a more thorough study.
                          > Â Â
                          > "About this same time, Harold began hearing from a number of ECKists
                          > about passages in other books that sounded similar to Paul's, and
                          > further stories about how Paul had studied with Kirpal Singh and worked
                          > for L. Ron Hubbard, which had circulated around since the early days.
                          > So, with Paul's files handy, Harold started digging. [....] A few
                          > months later, after researching Paul's files more thoroughly, Harold
                          > began giving a series of talks and writing a series of articles to
                          > share the information he found. Although Harold never tried to force
                          > anyone to change their perceptions of Paul, he was clearly working to
                          > unfreeze the ideas that had developed over time so that we could all
                          > see Paul from a fresh viewpoint. [....]"
                          >
                          > [Based on: Doug Marman: Dialogue in the Age of Criticism, Chap. 10]
                          >
                          > "[...] Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the
                          > Himalayas near Darjeeling. Before that on his first trip to India in
                          > 1935, he met Sudar Singh. We are still looking for information on Sudar
                          > Singh. We have gotten a lot of reports about an individual named Sundar
                          > Singh, who is not the same person at all.
                          > "Somebody asked Paul why he didn't simply look into the ECK-Vidya
                          > whenever he needed to know something. He said he didn't want to take
                          > all the surprise and adventure out of life. I feel the same way. It's
                          > more fun to find out yourself rather than be told. This is why the ECK
                          > initiates go out and find material about Sudar Singh themselves.
                          > "Some people wonder if Rebazar Tarzs really exists. They ask if Paul
                          > just borrowed a name from the Far East and made him up. Yet people
                          > report having met the ECK Masters even before they ever heard of
                          > Eckankar. The ECK Masters are real."
                          >
                          > [Based on: Article (Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons) by
                          > Harold Klemp - see link]
                          >
                          > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man.html#training
                          >
                          > They got reports? Hmm ... then maybe I should send in a report? :)
                          >
                          > I could give other examples where it looks like Eckankar is interested
                          > in stories from other people, including what people found by research.
                          > Apparently though, the LEM. isn't going to simply look at the Eck-Vidya
                          > and share answers to all of the questions people have. At the same time
                          > though, it looks like people pick and choose from all the information
                          > only what "THEY WANT" the facts to be and put the rest under the rug.
                          >
                          > If one disregards the reported facts written by Paul Twitchell
                          > concerning his meetings, encounters, and relationships with Eck Masters
                          > then where does it leave you? In Never Never Land with Peter Pan and
                          > Tinker Bell, etc.? (Hey look! He's playing a flute!)
                          >
                          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverland
                          >
                          > Are "spiritual experiences", the "stories" (and the stories that people
                          > send in) somehow more REAL than factual accounts which can be
                          > researched and verified? Or, Are "spiritual experiences" sometimes used
                          > as a label for anything a person wants to be true? Iow, does the land
                          > of make believe trump the actual facts? This is what it comes down to,
                          > IMO.
                        • Janice Pfeiffer
                          Thank you etznab for clarifying.  ... From: etznab18 Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited) To:
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 9, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thank you etznab for clarifying. 

                            --- On Sun, 5/6/12, etznab18 <etznab@...> wrote:

                            From: etznab18 <etznab@...>
                            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Sunday, May 6, 2012, 2:50 AM

                             
                            "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                            Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

                            To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

                            (1)

                            Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                            [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

                            The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                            So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                            It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

                            http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                            (2)

                            July 2001:

                            "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

                            Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                            http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                            (3)

                            July 2003:

                            Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                            What are your on that stuff ?
                            I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                            As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
                            It's all a matter of perspective.
                            I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
                            On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                            http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                            (4) February 2004:

                            "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                            http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                            (5)

                            March 2007:

                            [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
                            Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                            I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                            So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
                            I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                            These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                            In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                            http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Prometheus,
                            >  
                            > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me.  It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too.  Thank you for being such a wise soul.
                            >  
                            > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary?  To whom did he tell this and why?  The circus of eckankar is mind boggling.  The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization.  It appears like a house of cards.  Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground?  I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.  Any ideas?
                            >  
                            > Thanks
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                            > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                            > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >  
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Hello Janice and All,
                            > Interesting. I think I'll
                            > share some comments
                            > to your insights below.
                            >
                            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                            > "Prometheus,
                            >
                            > Now that is very interesting.
                            >
                            > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                            >
                            > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                            >
                            > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                            >
                            > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                            >
                            > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                            > many of us have had similar
                            > experiences of being attacked
                            > by negative entities and having
                            > to defend ourselves. In this case
                            > your RESA was, also, one of these
                            > negative beings. Too bad you
                            > couldn't protect yourself from
                            > them, but it's deceptive when
                            > one has placed trust in a RESA
                            > by assuming they are always
                            > positive and always on your side.
                            > They are as closed minded and
                            > defensive as is any religionist
                            > when protecting their dogma
                            > from too much scrutiny.
                            >
                            > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
                            >
                            > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                            > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                            > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                            > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                            > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                            > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                            > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                            > meditation/contemplation one will change
                            > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                            > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                            > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                            > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                            > when attention is placed upon these
                            > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                            > and every other conman knew and uses
                            > and what Klemp continues to use as
                            > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                            > the magician uses while the viewer's
                            > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                            >
                            >
                            > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
                            >
                            > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                            > are real. It could very well be that demons
                            > are metaphors for those things that bother
                            > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                            > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                            > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                            > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                            > have problems since they tend to pick and
                            > choose what is easy for them to believe
                            > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                            > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                            > narrow, terms.
                            >
                            >
                            > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                            > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
                            >
                            > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                            > He had the by-laws changed
                            > after he took over from D.G.
                            > and neither the President nor
                            > the EK Board has any voting
                            > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                            > and fire. The local Satsang
                            > Societies and local Boards have
                            > been set up the same (As Above).
                            > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                            > fire the local Presidents and
                            > Board members and the votes
                            > of Board members carry no
                            > authority! The RESA has the
                            > sole authority, unless, a higher
                            > authority at the ESC steps in.
                            > However, when this is done
                            > it is always with the approval
                            > of Klemp and under his direction.
                            >
                            >
                            > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
                            >
                            > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                            > ECK Master" was the best book written
                            > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                            > There were three interviews done around
                            > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                            > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                            > is that after all of these years he's still
                            > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                            > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                            > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                            > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                            > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                            > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                            > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                            > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                            > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                            > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                            > comments about how he confused things
                            > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                            > could take it easy during the start of
                            > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                            > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                            > accomplish!
                            >
                            > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                            >
                            > ME: I think that we all have to get
                            > over the guilt and shame of being
                            > tricked. Look at all of those who
                            > belong to a religion and donate
                            > time and money in order to get
                            > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                            > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                            > too! People need to believe in
                            > something that can give them
                            > hope and to help them to maintain
                            > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                            > know what people want and need.
                            > Attitude is, also, important but
                            > there's a fine line between being
                            > positive and being delusional.
                            > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                            > where to draw the line and some
                            > of us have more difficulty with
                            > seeing the good versus seeing
                            > the bad. However, I don't think
                            > that seeing the glass half-empty
                            > is always wrong, but it does present
                            > more of a challenge to overcome.
                            >
                            > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                            > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                            >
                            > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                            > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                            > and do a strip tease at an airport
                            > and choose jail or a mental institution
                            > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                            > was a liar up to the moment of his
                            > untimely death and, thus, was not
                            > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                            > him. Besides, many people have
                            > done stupid things when confused
                            > with life and have sought "spiritual
                            > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                            > claim that their mental missteps
                            > and episodes were "spiritual
                            > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                            > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                            > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                            > excuse his mental confusion.
                            > After all, HK's the leader of a
                            > church and has to be above
                            > and beyond reproach. It's a
                            > pretend game where he has
                            > to, partially, buy into the hype
                            > in order to seem authentic.
                            >
                            > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
                            >
                            > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                            > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                            > as long as they don't know who I am.
                            > That could/would change I'm sure.
                            > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                            > and I could understand that, however,
                            > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                            > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                            > not due to Eckankar or because of
                            > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                            > That crap just gets in the way and
                            > causes more codependency. Any
                            > growth or realization leading to
                            > an expanded awareness is learned
                            > and earned by the individual. It's
                            > their own personal and private
                            > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                            > whatever one wants to call this
                            > divine essence, or not, that leads
                            > to a divine knowingness and to
                            > contentment!
                            >
                            > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
                            >
                            > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                            > while knowing about the deceptions
                            > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                            > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                            > why throw the baby out with the
                            > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                            > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                            > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                            > works why complain? H.I.s have
                            > put blinders on in order to stay
                            > the course and maintain their
                            > prestigious positions which took
                            > them decades of time and money
                            > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                            > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                            > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                            > that did the same... picked and
                            > chose what they wanted to follow
                            > and believe. However, that's not
                            > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                            > work. One is supposed to take
                            > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                            > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                            > only the best from all of the other
                            > religions and experts, etc. in order
                            > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                            > dogma to the modern Western
                            > world. Thus, how can one pick
                            > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                            > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                            > following the guidance and the will
                            > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                            > they are heretics!
                            >
                            > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                            >
                            > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                            > Humans are social animals
                            > and most like to follow in
                            > one way or another because
                            > it's easier to follow than to
                            > lead. Being a follower requires
                            > less thought and energy. It's
                            > less demanding, less consuming,
                            > and is less stressful. It is true
                            > that the Higher one is with
                            > initiations, years, and titles
                            > the more lost that individual
                            > is. They've bought into it
                            > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                            > Klemp! However, the ones
                            > to really feel sorry for are those
                            > ESC staffers who know it's all
                            > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                            > but they have to put on an act
                            > in order to keep their jobs,
                            > health care, retirement, etc.
                            >
                            >
                            > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                            >
                            > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                            > friend of Klemp's who's an
                            > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                            > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                            > out there that have overlooked
                            > many facts and are based upon
                            > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                            > however, is that Doug's stated
                            > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                            > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                            > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                            > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                            > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                            > After all, PT needed to have
                            > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                            > his real master, initiate him.
                            > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                            > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                            > has admitted that Twitchell
                            > created the Mahanta title in
                            > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                            > omits all of this information
                            > in his books!
                            >
                            > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
                            >
                            > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                            >
                            > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
                            >
                            > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                            > It was interesting for me to
                            > comment.
                            >
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > This is an entertaining approach.
                            >
                            > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >

                          • prometheus_973
                            Hello All, What I found interesting is that Klemp mentions Kirpal s name 15 times and Sudar s name 4 times. Just check the Twitchell info on Eckankar.org and
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 9, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hello All,
                              What I found interesting
                              is that Klemp mentions
                              Kirpal's name 15 times
                              and Sudar's name 4 times.

                              Just check the Twitchell
                              info on Eckankar.org and
                              count it up for yourselves.
                              HK mentions that Twit had
                              a falling out with Kirpal
                              (for some unknown reason)
                              and that Kirpal had possession
                              of Paul's "The Tiger's Fang"
                              manuscript which he, later,
                              returned circa June, 1966.

                              The "falling out" was because
                              Paul had "exaggerated" and
                              "twisted facts" as Klemp states
                              Twit had done at age 27 (1935)
                              to get into Who's Who in Kentucky.

                              Even though the Tiger's Fang
                              story made Kirpal (aka Rebazar,
                              et al.) appear to be a great master,
                              it also made Paul look like a
                              Master as well. PT was using
                              Kirpal to self-promote himself
                              and Kirpal was aware of Paul's
                              scam to place himself on a
                              plane of consciousness near
                              Kirpal's!

                              Think about this. Would Klemp
                              allow similar stories to be published
                              in EK Newsletters that would
                              place low level EKists on these
                              Higher Planes? Never! Klemp
                              would see it as a challenge to
                              his authority just as Kirpal did.

                              It's obvious that Kirpal Singh
                              was Paul's true master and
                              not Sudar Singh.

                              What's this mean?

                              Well, it means that Paul
                              lied and there are EK books
                              that perpetuate this same
                              lie.

                              It also means that Sudar
                              never existed. Thus, Paul
                              was never initiated by Sudar
                              into ECKankar. If anything,
                              Paul was initiated into Radhasoami
                              by Kirpal Singh (btw- Radhasoami
                              is a sect of Ruhani Satsang).

                              And, this means that Eckankar
                              is, actually, a sect of the sect
                              of Radhasoami. Look at the
                              dogma! Eckankar's is practically
                              identical to Radhasoami and
                              to Ruhani Satsang. Sects, basically,
                              follow the same dogma of the
                              original teaching but tend
                              to do some tweaking due to
                              a falling out regarding leadership.

                              Regardless of tapes that Twit
                              made, after-the-fact and about
                              fake masters like Rebazar, we
                              still have the June, 1971 interviews
                              that Twit did for "Difficulties
                              Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."

                              What Paul lied about in June 1971
                              as the "Full" Mahanta (created in 1969)
                              is more important than what he said
                              earlier.

                              Plus, we have the Timelines which
                              show more of PT's lies.

                              And, we have Klemp, on Eckankar.org,
                              stating that Kirpal Singh had possession
                              of PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript.
                              This was a manuscript... not a book!

                              Plus, we have Klemp stating that
                              Twitchell was a liar who "exaggerated"
                              and "twisted facts" along with several
                              on-going comments about Paul being
                              a (somewhat shameless) self-promoter.

                              The sum of these facts make it
                              almost impossible for any objective
                              person Not to be able to see the
                              truth and connect-the-dots and
                              know, without a reasonable doubt,
                              that Twitchell was a fake master,
                              plagiarist, and a conman.

                              Prometheus


                              Janice wrote:

                              Thank you etznab for clarifying.

                              Etznab wrote:

                              "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                              Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for complete context.)

                              To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is still a long post though.

                              (1)

                              Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                              [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The Master.

                              The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs. Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                              So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                              It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused, as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is never any reason to rush." [... .]

                              http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                              (2)

                              July 2001:

                              "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David Lane?]

                              Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967. [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                              http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                              (3)

                              July 2003:

                              Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                              What are your on that stuff ?
                              I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                              As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a spin-off.
                              It's all a matter of perspective.
                              I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country. However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far Country far differently.
                              On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                              http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                              (4) February 2004:

                              "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                              http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                              (5)

                              March 2007:

                              [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual account?
                              Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                              I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works, but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                              So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it becomes a trust issue for them.
                              I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                              These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So, I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                              In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book, to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                              http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Prometheus,
                              > Â
                              > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank you for being such a wise soul.
                              > Â
                              > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why? The circus of eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand as an organization. It appears like a house of cards. Do you think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event. Any ideas?
                              > Â
                              > Thanks
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar (Revisited)
                              > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Â
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hello Janice and All,
                              > Interesting. I think I'll
                              > share some comments
                              > to your insights below.
                              >
                              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                              > "Prometheus,
                              >
                              > Now that is very interesting.
                              >
                              > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember later. I know it started with a P.
                              >
                              > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp. It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                              >
                              > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found it very confusing to have these dreams.
                              >
                              > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was true beauty in the teachings."
                              >
                              > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                              > many of us have had similar
                              > experiences of being attacked
                              > by negative entities and having
                              > to defend ourselves. In this case
                              > your RESA was, also, one of these
                              > negative beings. Too bad you
                              > couldn't protect yourself from
                              > them, but it's deceptive when
                              > one has placed trust in a RESA
                              > by assuming they are always
                              > positive and always on your side.
                              > They are as closed minded and
                              > defensive as is any religionist
                              > when protecting their dogma
                              > from too much scrutiny.
                              >
                              > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories about the personal lives of other eckist."
                              >
                              > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                              > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                              > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                              > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                              > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                              > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                              > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                              > meditation/contemplation one will change
                              > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                              > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                              > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                              > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                              > when attention is placed upon these
                              > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                              > and every other conman knew and uses
                              > and what Klemp continues to use as
                              > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                              > the magician uses while the viewer's
                              > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                              >
                              >
                              > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say, I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature of eckankar."
                              >
                              > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                              > are real. It could very well be that demons
                              > are metaphors for those things that bother
                              > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                              > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                              > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                              > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                              > have problems since they tend to pick and
                              > choose what is easy for them to believe
                              > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                              > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                              > narrow, terms.
                              >
                              >
                              > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                              > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds making up corporate eckankar."
                              >
                              > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                              > He had the by-laws changed
                              > after he took over from D.G.
                              > and neither the President nor
                              > the EK Board has any voting
                              > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                              > and fire. The local Satsang
                              > Societies and local Boards have
                              > been set up the same (As Above).
                              > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                              > fire the local Presidents and
                              > Board members and the votes
                              > of Board members carry no
                              > authority! The RESA has the
                              > sole authority, unless, a higher
                              > authority at the ESC steps in.
                              > However, when this is done
                              > it is always with the approval
                              > of Klemp and under his direction.
                              >
                              >
                              > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by twitchell and others that the average person would think is not spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been removed from print."
                              >
                              > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                              > ECK Master" was the best book written
                              > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                              > There were three interviews done around
                              > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                              > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                              > is that after all of these years he's still
                              > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                              > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                              > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                              > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                              > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                              > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                              > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                              > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                              > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                              > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                              > comments about how he confused things
                              > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                              > could take it easy during the start of
                              > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                              > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                              > accomplish!
                              >
                              > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway. Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                              >
                              > ME: I think that we all have to get
                              > over the guilt and shame of being
                              > tricked. Look at all of those who
                              > belong to a religion and donate
                              > time and money in order to get
                              > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                              > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                              > too! People need to believe in
                              > something that can give them
                              > hope and to help them to maintain
                              > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                              > know what people want and need.
                              > Attitude is, also, important but
                              > there's a fine line between being
                              > positive and being delusional.
                              > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                              > where to draw the line and some
                              > of us have more difficulty with
                              > seeing the good versus seeing
                              > the bad. However, I don't think
                              > that seeing the glass half-empty
                              > is always wrong, but it does present
                              > more of a challenge to overcome.
                              >
                              > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems. Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot. Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't this great living eck master help them over come these things or at least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                              > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                              >
                              > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                              > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                              > and do a strip tease at an airport
                              > and choose jail or a mental institution
                              > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                              > was a liar up to the moment of his
                              > untimely death and, thus, was not
                              > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                              > him. Besides, many people have
                              > done stupid things when confused
                              > with life and have sought "spiritual
                              > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                              > claim that their mental missteps
                              > and episodes were "spiritual
                              > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                              > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                              > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                              > excuse his mental confusion.
                              > After all, HK's the leader of a
                              > church and has to be above
                              > and beyond reproach. It's a
                              > pretend game where he has
                              > to, partially, buy into the hype
                              > in order to seem authentic.
                              >
                              > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is possible to grow in eckankar."
                              >
                              > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                              > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                              > as long as they don't know who I am.
                              > That could/would change I'm sure.
                              > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                              > and I could understand that, however,
                              > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                              > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                              > not due to Eckankar or because of
                              > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                              > That crap just gets in the way and
                              > causes more codependency. Any
                              > growth or realization leading to
                              > an expanded awareness is learned
                              > and earned by the individual. It's
                              > their own personal and private
                              > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                              > whatever one wants to call this
                              > divine essence, or not, that leads
                              > to a divine knowingness and to
                              > contentment!
                              >
                              > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be knowingly condoned."
                              >
                              > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                              > while knowing about the deceptions
                              > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                              > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                              > why throw the baby out with the
                              > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                              > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                              > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                              > works why complain? H.I.s have
                              > put blinders on in order to stay
                              > the course and maintain their
                              > prestigious positions which took
                              > them decades of time and money
                              > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                              > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                              > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                              > that did the same... picked and
                              > chose what they wanted to follow
                              > and believe. However, that's not
                              > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                              > work. One is supposed to take
                              > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                              > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                              > only the best from all of the other
                              > religions and experts, etc. in order
                              > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                              > dogma to the modern Western
                              > world. Thus, how can one pick
                              > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                              > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                              > following the guidance and the will
                              > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                              > they are heretics!
                              >
                              > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                              >
                              > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                              > Humans are social animals
                              > and most like to follow in
                              > one way or another because
                              > it's easier to follow than to
                              > lead. Being a follower requires
                              > less thought and energy. It's
                              > less demanding, less consuming,
                              > and is less stressful. It is true
                              > that the Higher one is with
                              > initiations, years, and titles
                              > the more lost that individual
                              > is. They've bought into it
                              > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                              > Klemp! However, the ones
                              > to really feel sorry for are those
                              > ESC staffers who know it's all
                              > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                              > but they have to put on an act
                              > in order to keep their jobs,
                              > health care, retirement, etc.
                              >
                              >
                              > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                              >
                              > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                              > friend of Klemp's who's an
                              > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                              > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                              > out there that have overlooked
                              > many facts and are based upon
                              > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                              > however, is that Doug's stated
                              > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                              > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                              > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                              > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                              > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                              > After all, PT needed to have
                              > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                              > his real master, initiate him.
                              > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                              > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                              > has admitted that Twitchell
                              > created the Mahanta title in
                              > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                              > omits all of this information
                              > in his books!
                              >
                              > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a private person, I felt a need to write it.
                              >
                              > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                              >
                              > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful spiritual experiences."
                              >
                              > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                              > It was interesting for me to
                              > comment.
                              >
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > This is an entertaining approach.
                              >
                              > http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                            • etznab@aol.com
                              Nice post there. Lots of good points. Thanks. ... From: prometheus_973 To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                              Message 14 of 14 , May 10, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Nice post there. Lots of good points. Thanks.

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                                <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wed, May 9, 2012 12:48 pm
                                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of ECKankar
                                (Revisited)

                                 
                                Hello All,
                                What I found interesting
                                is that Klemp mentions
                                Kirpal's name 15 times
                                and Sudar's name 4 times.

                                Just check the Twitchell
                                info on Eckankar.org and
                                count it up for yourselves.
                                HK mentions that Twit had
                                a falling out with Kirpal
                                (for some unknown reason)
                                and that Kirpal had possession
                                of Paul's "The Tiger's Fang"
                                manuscript which he, later,
                                returned circa June, 1966.

                                The "falling out" was because
                                Paul had "exaggerated" and
                                "twisted facts" as Klemp states
                                Twit had done at age 27 (1935)
                                to get into Who's Who in Kentucky.

                                Even though the Tiger's Fang
                                story made Kirpal (aka Rebazar,
                                et al.) appear to be a great master,
                                it also made Paul look like a
                                Master as well. PT was using
                                Kirpal to self-promote himself
                                and Kirpal was aware of Paul's
                                scam to place himself on a
                                plane of consciousness near
                                Kirpal's!

                                Think about this. Would Klemp
                                allow similar stories to be published
                                in EK Newsletters that would
                                place low level EKists on these
                                Higher Planes? Never! Klemp
                                would see it as a challenge to
                                his authority just as Kirpal did.

                                It's obvious that Kirpal Singh
                                was Paul's true master and
                                not Sudar Singh.

                                What's this mean?

                                Well, it means that Paul
                                lied and there are EK books
                                that perpetuate this same
                                lie.

                                It also means that Sudar
                                never existed. Thus, Paul
                                was never initiated by Sudar
                                into ECKankar. If anything,
                                Paul was initiated into Radhasoami
                                by Kirpal Singh (btw- Radhasoami
                                is a sect of Ruhani Satsang).

                                And, this means that Eckankar
                                is, actually, a sect of the sect
                                of Radhasoami. Look at the
                                dogma! Eckankar's is practically
                                identical to Radhasoami and
                                to Ruhani Satsang. Sects, basically,
                                follow the same dogma of the
                                original teaching but tend
                                to do some tweaking due to
                                a falling out regarding leadership.

                                Regardless of tapes that Twit
                                made, after-the-fact and about
                                fake masters like Rebazar, we
                                still have the June, 1971 interviews
                                that Twit did for "Difficulties
                                Of Becoming The Living ECK Master."

                                What Paul lied about in June 1971
                                as the "Full" Mahanta (created in 1969)
                                is more important than what he said
                                earlier.

                                Plus, we have the Timelines which
                                show more of PT's lies.

                                And, we have Klemp, on Eckankar.org,
                                stating that Kirpal Singh had possession
                                of PT's "The Tiger's Fang" manuscript.
                                This was a manuscript... not a book!

                                Plus, we have Klemp stating that
                                Twitchell was a liar who "exaggerated"
                                and "twisted facts" along with several
                                on-going comments about Paul being
                                a (somewhat shameless) self-promoter.

                                The sum of these facts make it
                                almost impossible for any objective
                                person Not to be able to see the
                                truth and connect-the-dots and
                                know, without a reasonable doubt,
                                that Twitchell was a fake master,
                                plagiarist, and a conman.

                                Prometheus

                                Janice wrote:

                                Thank you etznab for clarifying.

                                Etznab wrote:

                                "Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                                admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and why?"

                                Some select trivia about Rebazar Tarzs. (See original links/threads for
                                complete context.)

                                To try and save space I chose to illustrate excerpts only. This is
                                still a long post though.

                                (1)

                                Reference to event from 1970s shared in Doug Marman's 2001 online book:

                                [...] Anyway, back to the story: Darwin was very supportive of my
                                self-assigned task and would ask me about it from time to time. One day
                                I [Doug Marman] told him that I'd discovered a tape like no others in
                                the box. It was a personal recording by Paul, apparently done in his
                                home. It sounded like Paul was experimenting again. This time he was
                                trying to create an audio version of something like Dialogues With The
                                Master.

                                The tape started with Paul's voice describing a visit by Rebazar Tarzs.
                                Then we hear Paul's voice lower into a deep, gravely sound, saying
                                something like, "Well, Paul, are you ready?" Paul was mimicking the
                                voice of Rebazar Tarzs! The tape went on to give a discourse from
                                Rebazar on a spiritual topic. This was so long ago I can't remember
                                much more than that, but the tape was amazing to me, and I wish I could
                                hear it again to see what I might think of it today.

                                So, when I told Darwin about the tape, I asked him if he had ever heard
                                anything about it before. He immediately became interested, told me
                                that it was news to him, and asked if I could get it for him. I told
                                Darwin that I had left it in my apartment with all the other tapes I
                                was sorting through, but I would run home to get it for him. I
                                immediately jumped up to head for my car.

                                It was at this point that Darwin said something that left me with a
                                deep impression. He saw that I was hurrying toward my car in my desire
                                to get the tape for him, and he said, "Take your time." He then paused,
                                as if he was saying something very important, and he added, "There is
                                never any reason to rush." [... .]

                                http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Nine.htm

                                (2)

                                July 2001:

                                "The idea of Twitchell denying his association with Kirpal Singh is NOT
                                my invention. Kirpal Singh thought Twitchell was denying it. - [David
                                Lane?]

                                Kirpal "thought" Twitchell was denying it. How interesting. Why doesn't
                                David show us the rest of the quote, which explains why Kirpal thought
                                that? Kirpal makes it very clear that he is referring to The Tiger's
                                Fang, which in its first draft mentioned Kirpal as Paul's teacher, but
                                was changed to Rebazar Tarzs by the time it was published in 1967.
                                [....]" - [Doug Marman?]

                                http://tinyurl.com/4x3kl25

                                (3)

                                July 2003:

                                Interesting, Doug. I have mixed feeling about the "plagerism". For thos
                                most part, I see the copied info as generally either common themes or
                                insignificant fillers. However, I find the quotes where he claimed to
                                have come from Rebazar to have been done in really poor taste... and
                                perhaps not a great move in his part ???
                                What are your on that stuff ?
                                I agree with you that plagiarism is not the real issue. I think the
                                fact that many felt The Far Country was a transcription of an actual
                                dialog means this matter of plagiarism shows them a very different
                                picture. It means the words really came from Paul's pen, with help from
                                other authors, and not word for word from Rebazar Tarzs.
                                As for poor taste, I think it looks a lot differently now. I can look
                                back at some of my early writings and see strong similarities with
                                Paul's books. He influenced me significantly. Let's say I decided to
                                leave ECKANKAR and start writing for some other teacher. Let's say I
                                took some of my old writings and just re-worked them to fit with the
                                new teachings. Now, somebody eventually sees that my writings are
                                almost word for word from some of Paul's writings. Now it looks like I
                                was "stealing" from ECKANKAR, and that the new teacher is just a
                                spin-off.
                                It's all a matter of perspective.
                                I think Paul was clearly influenced by Johnson's books. He obviously
                                liked them enough that he covered a lot of the same material, and even
                                used very similar words in many cases, when he wrote The Far Country.
                                However, he was also writing this at the same time as he handed Kirpal
                                Singh his first draft of The Tiger's Fang. If Kirpal had not rejected
                                his efforts, I believe Kirpal's students would have looked at The Far
                                Country far differently.
                                On the other hand, I don't really know what Paul was thinking when he
                                wrote this book. I do like The Far Country far more than Johnson's
                                books, so I'm glad he wrote it. However, I do think that it is a
                                serious negative to his popularity in the public sector. I'm not sure
                                Paul would mind too much about that. - Doug.

                                http://tinyurl.com/7stz3vz

                                (4) February 2004:

                                "[...] 3. Did Paul Twitchell copy other writers works? Yes. Well, I
                                guess I can give yes or no answers sometimes. 4. Did Paul Twitchell use
                                other writers words and put his Eck masters names on them as if the Eck
                                Master were saying them? Yes. [....]"

                                http://www.thetruth-seeker.com/dispBB.aspx?st=268&page=168#m264

                                (5)

                                March 2007:

                                [...] Let me ask a question here: Do you have a problem seeing Paul's
                                book, Stranger By the River, as a poetic work, rather than a factual
                                account?
                                Do you think that Paul is quoting Rebazar's actual words there? Or is
                                he trying to communicate the teaching that he learned from him?
                                I've noticed that a lot of ECKists readily accepted that Stranger By
                                The River was a fictionalized piece, much like Khalil Gibran's works,
                                but have taken The Far Country as something different.
                                So, yes, when you come to realize that The Far Country is a similar
                                work of art, rather than a factual account, you might feel that somehow
                                you were fooled. I've seen people go through this reaction, and then it
                                becomes a trust issue for them.
                                I can relate to that. Although I always felt that The Far Country was
                                much more like Stranger By The River. My reason: Paul is describing
                                spiritual teachings here that are coming from a spiritual experience.
                                These aren't things that come in English. They are inner teachings. So,
                                I always thought these were Paul's words and his creation, but that he
                                was trying to describe something real in the best way that he could.
                                In other words, he was writing the classic "as if you were there" book,
                                to leave the reader with the impression as close as possible to what it
                                was really like. [...] Which do you think Paul was writing about? Was
                                he trying to write about historical facts, or was he describing
                                spiritual truth? If the later, wouldn't it be best to review his works
                                in this light? Why worry if his facts are not exactly right?

                                http://tinyurl.com/7tuzbwd

                                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer
                                <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Prometheus,
                                > Â
                                > You have no idea how comforting your comments are to me. It
                                gives me peace of mind to know that others did have them too. Thank
                                you for being such a wise soul.
                                > Â
                                > Can you give more detail about the conditions that Doug Marman
                                admitted that rebazar was imaginary? To whom did he tell this and
                                why? The circus of eckankar is mind boggling. The more I hear
                                from experienced eckist, the harder it is to believe that it can stand
                                as an organization. It appears like a house of cards. Do you
                                think more people are becoming disenchanted with eckankar and do you
                                think the org is losing ground? I have read they exaggerate their
                                membership by counting anyone who has ever attended an eck event.Â
                                Any ideas?
                                > Â
                                > Thanks
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: The Dark Side of
                                ECKankar (Revisited)
                                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                                > Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 7:33 PM
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Â
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Hello Janice and All,
                                > Interesting. I think I'll
                                > share some comments
                                > to your insights below.
                                >
                                > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
                                > "Prometheus,
                                >
                                > Now that is very interesting.
                                >
                                > I, myself, felt I suffered some kind of an attack about a year or
                                so before I got out. I believe it happened because I just wasn't
                                falling in line like a good little eckist but maybe I was robbed of
                                energy. My experience was that I was just before falling asleep one
                                night and I heard a loud voice which used a word I couldn't remember
                                later. I know it started with a P.
                                >
                                > Anyway, as this word was being shouted, I got a jolt of some kind
                                and then I felt a wave of nausea and weakness. This wasn't a dream but
                                I was only half awake. The voice I heard wasn't wimpy sounding klemp.
                                It was a strong male voice. A few nights later, I did dream that an
                                ugly looking little troll like figure came into my room and stood
                                gazing at me through the metal barks on the foot board of my bed. In my
                                dream I told it to get out now and never come back. It did.
                                >
                                > Then I started having dreams that portrayed the eck master rebazar
                                as being a thief and a con artist. The experience was weird and the
                                dreams were even more so. While an early eckist, I guess rebazar was my
                                favorite character. He seemed the most spiritual at the time. I found
                                it very confusing to have these dreams.
                                >
                                > I began to realize how stale my life had become. I was in a long
                                term relationship with a high initiate. I started asking the questions
                                that got me yelled at by the area resa. I had read nothing but eck
                                teachings since becoming an eckist. I thought while an ekist there was
                                true beauty in the teachings."
                                >
                                > ME (Prometheus): I know that
                                > many of us have had similar
                                > experiences of being attacked
                                > by negative entities and having
                                > to defend ourselves. In this case
                                > your RESA was, also, one of these
                                > negative beings. Too bad you
                                > couldn't protect yourself from
                                > them, but it's deceptive when
                                > one has placed trust in a RESA
                                > by assuming they are always
                                > positive and always on your side.
                                > They are as closed minded and
                                > defensive as is any religionist
                                > when protecting their dogma
                                > from too much scrutiny.
                                >
                                > "And so I began to see eckankar with all its manipulation and how
                                it attempts to break a person down. I walked away and I started reading
                                all the things I would not read as an eckist. It took me about another
                                year to start feeling like a normal person. I must say that the attack
                                seemed to be aimed at my brain and not my heart as these great ones of
                                eckankar claim in theirs writings. It didn't appear to be a positive
                                thing and I wondered if an attempt had been made to harm me since I
                                wasn't conforming properly. I didn't insult people or even respond to
                                them with rudeness but I did maintain my right to privacy on many
                                occasions when asked personal questions. Privacy doesn't seem to be
                                respected in eckankar and a lot of eckist were usually telling stories
                                about the personal lives of other eckist."
                                >
                                > ME: Yes. One has to give-in and give-up.
                                > Some say, Let-go and Let-God. But, with
                                > ECKankar they will say to remain skeptical
                                > until you can "prove it" to yourself. But,
                                > the catch is that there's a time limit for
                                > being skeptical. True, when one seeks
                                > the "Truth" via introspection and uses
                                > meditation/contemplation one will change
                                > and see with new eyes, but that's not due
                                > to any fake Mahanta or borrowed and
                                > tweaked Sant Mat dogma. One will naturally
                                > dream and imagine all sorts of things
                                > when attention is placed upon these
                                > areas and topics. That's what Twitchell
                                > and every other conman knew and uses
                                > and what Klemp continues to use as
                                > a hook. It's a slight-of-hand deception
                                > the magician uses while the viewer's
                                > attention is distracted elsewhere.
                                >
                                >
                                > "I think some higher part of me was showing me the truth behind
                                eckankar after the attack but I never associated the experience with
                                demons. I am not sure demons are real and separate entities. I have
                                always felt that a lot of Christians will declare anything evil or
                                demonic that threatens their views so if I read what they have to say,
                                I dismiss a lot of it. If evil didn't exist then Christianity wouldn't
                                have a reason to exist. This article starts out like most religious
                                hipe but they did make a few good points about the destructive nature
                                of eckankar."
                                >
                                > ME: I'm, also, not so sure that demons
                                > are real. It could very well be that demons
                                > are metaphors for those things that bother
                                > and bind us to negativity, fear, self-doubt
                                > and even to self-loathing. Actually, isn't
                                > all religious dogma full of hidden metaphors?
                                > This is where the fanatics and the fundamentalists
                                > have problems since they tend to pick and
                                > choose what is easy for them to believe
                                > since they tend to be more simple-minded
                                > and tend to see most everything in literal,
                                > narrow, terms.
                                >
                                >
                                > "I honestly believe that klemp thinks he is the living eck master
                                and he thinks he is doing a lot of good. I think he is just the puppet
                                for the more scheming higher ups. I really don't s
                                > see anything really outstanding about klemp at all. That was my
                                biggest problem with eckankar. When I would do the gazing at the
                                mahanta thing using klemps picture, all I could see was a sickly
                                looking man. He even looked miserable. I saw no power. He wasn't
                                charismatic. He wasn't very intelligent and he had no creative ability
                                that I could see. He like twitchell seemed to need to draw from sources
                                outside of eckankar for spiritual inspiration and his attempts were to
                                me at times comical. As long as he was being told he was the great eck
                                master, he probably was easily controlled by the gang of money hounds
                                making up corporate eckankar."
                                >
                                > ME: Klemp is the Higher Up.
                                > He had the by-laws changed
                                > after he took over from D.G.
                                > and neither the President nor
                                > the EK Board has any voting
                                > authority. Only Klemp can hire
                                > and fire. The local Satsang
                                > Societies and local Boards have
                                > been set up the same (As Above).
                                > Thus, the RESAs can hire and
                                > fire the local Presidents and
                                > Board members and the votes
                                > of Board members carry no
                                > authority! The RESA has the
                                > sole authority, unless, a higher
                                > authority at the ESC steps in.
                                > However, when this is done
                                > it is always with the approval
                                > of Klemp and under his direction.
                                >
                                >
                                > "It is true that eckankar gets rid of things that were written by
                                twitchell and others that the average person would think is not
                                spiritual. I never heard of twitchells written rantings about his great
                                power and influence so by the time I was in, I guess it had been
                                removed from print."
                                >
                                > ME: "Difficulties Of Becoming The Living
                                > ECK Master" was the best book written
                                > depicting Twitchell's egomaniacal rants.
                                > There were three interviews done around
                                > June 1971 while PT was the full blown
                                > self-proclaimed Mahanta. What's amazing
                                > is that after all of these years he's still
                                > lying about his past. Klemp has stated
                                > on Eckankar.org that Twit was "exaggerating"
                                > and "twisting facts" to get into Kentucky's
                                > Who's Who and had never traveled all that
                                > far from home. Yet, Twitchell (in this June,
                                > 1971 interview), is saying he was almost
                                > 16 years old when he, first, went from
                                > Paris to India, with his sister, to be with
                                > Sudar Singh. There are more examples
                                > that are even more outlandish. Paul's
                                > comments about how he confused things
                                > and screwed up paperwork so that he
                                > could take it easy during the start of
                                > WWII showed a level of subversion and
                                > sabotage that even the Nazis couldn't
                                > accomplish!
                                >
                                > "I've never talked about the experience before because I found it
                                so confusing and during that time, I wondered if I had gotten a little
                                bit nuts to even have those things. Any feed back from more
                                knowledgeable eckist would be greatly appreciated. I don't know about
                                demons but it was strange and enough to cause the process of breaking
                                the chains of eckankar for me. They need more slaves to bring in
                                recruits for more money and more influence. I wasn't doing that. I am
                                thankful that although I did perform tasks for the local area, I did
                                not drag a single soul into eckankar. Well, not that I know of anyway.
                                Guess I wasn't a very good eckiest. I wasn't capable of it and I am
                                ashamed of myself for ever being a member. Coming out of it, I think
                                most people feel dumb, gullible and used."
                                >
                                > ME: I think that we all have to get
                                > over the guilt and shame of being
                                > tricked. Look at all of those who
                                > belong to a religion and donate
                                > time and money in order to get
                                > their "feel good" fix. Religions
                                > are types of opiates... Eckankar
                                > too! People need to believe in
                                > something that can give them
                                > hope and to help them to maintain
                                > a positive outlook. And, conmen
                                > know what people want and need.
                                > Attitude is, also, important but
                                > there's a fine line between being
                                > positive and being delusional.
                                > Sometimes it's difficult to know
                                > where to draw the line and some
                                > of us have more difficulty with
                                > seeing the good versus seeing
                                > the bad. However, I don't think
                                > that seeing the glass half-empty
                                > is always wrong, but it does present
                                > more of a challenge to overcome.
                                >
                                > "Something else kind of made me realize that eckankar wasn't
                                healthy. I am by no means saying that all eckist have mental problems.
                                Some of them had a great need to talk to some one. I listened a lot.
                                Anyway, I was told by some eckist that they were diagnosed with severe
                                mental conditions previously or since becoming eckist. But why couldn't
                                this great living eck master help them over come these things or at
                                least help them adjust better to the physical world? If the living eck
                                master had to go nuts to find his spiritual power does that mean it is
                                necessary to become a spiritually enlightened being? Why does klemp
                                describe his psychotic episode as something spiritual, when no one with
                                a sound mind or high spiritual powers, would remove their clothes in
                                public? Not in my opinion anyway. Is it because after being proclaimed
                                the living eck master, it might be revealed by the media and so it was
                                woven into a spiritual experience as kind of a necessary
                                > ordeal? Did he go psychotic because he was attempting to follow in
                                twitchells shoes and he mentally duplicated twithells experience?"
                                >
                                > ME: I don't believe that Twitchell
                                > ever needed to jump off a bridge
                                > and do a strip tease at an airport
                                > and choose jail or a mental institution
                                > in order to "find God." Besides, Twit
                                > was a liar up to the moment of his
                                > untimely death and, thus, was not
                                > a "spiritual being." It was all about
                                > him. Besides, many people have
                                > done stupid things when confused
                                > with life and have sought "spiritual
                                > solutions." If one chose to, one could
                                > claim that their mental missteps
                                > and episodes were "spiritual
                                > experiences" as Klemp has done.
                                > Klemp is merely doing a 20/20
                                > hindsight, and PR rewrite, to
                                > excuse his mental confusion.
                                > After all, HK's the leader of a
                                > church and has to be above
                                > and beyond reproach. It's a
                                > pretend game where he has
                                > to, partially, buy into the hype
                                > in order to seem authentic.
                                >
                                > "I did meet some eckist that I still remember with fondness and
                                who appeared to be warm caring human beings. Some appeared to be well
                                adjusted people. Also, I just read a posting by an eckist on this
                                article that sounded remarkably insightful and loving. Maybe it is
                                possible to grow in eckankar."
                                >
                                > ME: I, too, know and remember some
                                > H.I.s whom I like. They are nice people...
                                > as long as they don't know who I am.
                                > That could/would change I'm sure.
                                > They would feel betrayed and insulted
                                > and I could understand that, however,
                                > that, too, would be a "spiritual" test!
                                > To "grow in eckankar?" Sure, but it's
                                > not due to Eckankar or because of
                                > inner guidance by a fake mahanta.
                                > That crap just gets in the way and
                                > causes more codependency. Any
                                > growth or realization leading to
                                > an expanded awareness is learned
                                > and earned by the individual. It's
                                > their own personal and private
                                > relationship to the Holy Spirit or
                                > whatever one wants to call this
                                > divine essence, or not, that leads
                                > to a divine knowingness and to
                                > contentment!
                                >
                                > "I had one eckist tell me that he didn't care where the teachings
                                came from because they worked for him. I had conversations with several
                                high initiates who were aware of the deception in eckankar and simply
                                accepted it without any attempts to rationalize it. It appeared that
                                the only truth that did exist for a lot of them was what ever seemed
                                relevant at the time. One female told me, you take the parts you can
                                use and toss the rest. I guess the idea was that with the teachings
                                being so vast, it was up to a person to decide for themselves which
                                ones to keep. Also, if twitchell made a habit of lying then truth
                                wasn't anything concrete at all but something to be manipulated as
                                needed. Well, that is what I got any from conversations. I think this
                                concept corrodes the moral fiber of a person. Lies should not be
                                knowingly condoned."
                                >
                                > ME: Actually, accepting Eckankar
                                > while knowing about the deceptions
                                > and lies is rationalizing. It's like,
                                > if it's not broke why fix it? Or,
                                > why throw the baby out with the
                                > (dirty) bath water? Nothing, and
                                > nobody (Klemp), in the lower worlds
                                > of KAL is perfect. Thus, if it (Eckankar)
                                > works why complain? H.I.s have
                                > put blinders on in order to stay
                                > the course and maintain their
                                > prestigious positions which took
                                > them decades of time and money
                                > to obtain. Many have rejected, in
                                > part, HK's RESA structure and the
                                > ESA Guidelines. Yes, I knew of H.I.s
                                > that did the same... picked and
                                > chose what they wanted to follow
                                > and believe. However, that's not
                                > the way Eckankar is supposed to
                                > work. One is supposed to take
                                > the bait and swallow it hook, line,
                                > and sinker! Twit, supposedly, took
                                > only the best from all of the other
                                > religions and experts, etc. in order
                                > to create (or bring forth) the EK
                                > dogma to the modern Western
                                > world. Thus, how can one pick
                                > and chose when it's all, supposedly,
                                > relevant? If a person is not consciously
                                > following the guidance and the will
                                > of the LEM/Mahanta (Klemp), then,
                                > they are heretics!
                                >
                                > "I just believe the good people just refused to see anything other
                                than eckankar because they needed to belong to something they view as
                                greater than anything else. They are under the eckankar spell. I still
                                wouldn't want contact with them though. I just couldn't listen that
                                eckankar dribble ever again and I would have to show how sorry I feel
                                for them. It would serve no healthy purpose for me or them. So, I just
                                remember the good and bless them in my heart."
                                >
                                > ME: True! It's nice to belong.
                                > Humans are social animals
                                > and most like to follow in
                                > one way or another because
                                > it's easier to follow than to
                                > lead. Being a follower requires
                                > less thought and energy. It's
                                > less demanding, less consuming,
                                > and is less stressful. It is true
                                > that the Higher one is with
                                > initiations, years, and titles
                                > the more lost that individual
                                > is. They've bought into it
                                > to the extreme. Look at Marge
                                > Klemp! However, the ones
                                > to really feel sorry for are those
                                > ESC staffers who know it's all
                                > a sham and Klemp is a poser,
                                > but they have to put on an act
                                > in order to keep their jobs,
                                > health care, retirement, etc.
                                >
                                >
                                > "Anyway, this article named a few people that I am not familiar
                                with. I will look them up but any info any of you can share would be
                                appreciated. Who is Dave Marman, Bill Schnoebelen and Robert Marsh? Are
                                these really old names in eckankar history? Bill Schnoebelen was an
                                eckist according to this article. The other two appear to be writers."
                                >
                                > ME: Doug Marman is an old
                                > friend of Klemp's who's an
                                > apologist for Eckankar. I think
                                > he's a 7th. He's got some books
                                > out there that have overlooked
                                > many facts and are based upon
                                > lies and hearsay. What's funny,
                                > however, is that Doug's stated
                                > that Twitchell lied about traveling
                                > to Paris, France to visit his sister
                                > when it was, actually, Paris, Kentucky.
                                > And, Marman's stated that Rebazar
                                > was probably made up by Twitchell.
                                > After all, PT needed to have
                                > someone other than Kirpal Singh,
                                > his real master, initiate him.
                                > Thus, PT created RT in order to
                                > initiate himself. Plus, Marman
                                > has admitted that Twitchell
                                > created the Mahanta title in
                                > January 1969. Yet, Marman
                                > omits all of this information
                                > in his books!
                                >
                                > "Telling my experience wasn't easy for me. Although I tend to be a
                                private person, I felt a need to write it.
                                >
                                > Thanks for giving me the opportunity Prometheus.
                                >
                                > May you all be blessed with good things especially fruitful
                                spiritual experiences."
                                >
                                > ME: Thanks for sharing this.
                                > It was interesting for me to
                                > comment.
                                >
                                >
                                > prometheus wrote:
                                >
                                > This is an entertaining approach.
                                >
                                >
                                http://www.scribd.com/doc/8967961/The-DARK-SIDE-of-ECKANKAR-by-Ruth-and-Noah-Samuelson
                                >
                                > Prometheus
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