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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Some Generic Words of Wisdom--Far Beyond Klemp's

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  • Janice Pfeiffer
    Hi Russ,   Before eckankar I was having experiences of more the psychic kind.  I believe my third eye was opening.     In the early days of eckankar I had
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 11, 2012
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      Hi Russ,
       
      Before eckankar I was having experiences of more the psychic kind.  I believe my third eye was opening. 
       
       In the early days of eckankar I had experiences geared around eckankar things.  I think this is because I expected them.  I did have experiences with the mahanta.  I met Klemp several times in my dreams.  I went to see Rebazar in the Himalayan mountains.  I saw his humble cottage.  I saw him sitting cups of some kind of tea on the table as I arrived.  I also had an experience where there was a stand off between Klemp and Darwin Gross.  Remember I said my third eye was opening before I came to eckankar. 
       
      The longer I stayed in eckankar the less my experiences on the inner were.  Although I was using contemplation, I got little.  Where as I had to stop meditating at one point before canker because the past life images were too vivid for me at times. 
       
      What I tell myself about why things kind of dried up is that soul or the higher self doesn't care which images it uses to teach as long as they are meaningful to the outer person.  So because I wanted eckankar to be valid, it used eckankar images to teach me.  As my anxiety and uncertainly about eckankar grew stronger, what I had going for me previously dried up.  My infrequent dreams started making no sense at all.  I dreamed one night that Rebazar himself kidnapped me and was holding me for ransom.  He had become an evil person instead of what I had been told by eckankar.  If I had a favorite book in eckankar, it would have been Stranger By The River because of the words that Paul Twitchell attributed to Rebazar.   I think the very thing that eckankar emphasizes (the dreams), was the very thing used to prompt me to let go of a harmful cult.  My time in eckankar was up but it took about another year, to hear enough to finally let go on the outer. 
       
      I immediately read Ford Johnson's book, Confessions Of A God Seeker.  I believe it helped me become more comfortable in being an ex eckist because it dispelled all of what eckankar had to say and it verbalized the things that had bothered me the most while trying to be a good eckist.  The lies that eckankar uses to rope people in and the lies used to enslave a person became a vile something that made me sick to my stomach.  Yes, there is goodness among the teachings but it would be so much better with out the eckankar bull.  These things can be found if one wants them with out eckankar.  The original sources are available if one wants them. 
       
      I feel if some one still feels a need for the things of eckankar, they should find the original sources and give no credit to eckankar other than to realize that Twitchell was a skilled writer of fiction but needed to steal from others when it came to spiritual matters.  I do not believe he was an advanced soul of any kind.  I had a very weird dream concerning him near the end too.  In my dream he was a very fickle, flighty individual surrounded by a gray fog.  He was in a place that did not appear to have any light and all the souls there seemed to be locked into an nonsensical dance of sensuality.  Whether my dream has any validity as to where Twitchell really is, I do not know.  I own it as mine.  It was for my benefit to show me the true nature of Twitchell. 
       
      Both before and after eckankar, I have had many experiences and I have had many so called psychic and so called spiritually developed people try to influence me.  The lesson I feel that I learned and is the most important to me is to never mess with another person's experience.  I have no fascination for psychics anymore.  Pushing your ideas onto another about their past or present or future in my opinion is spiritually wrong and very harmful.  Soul will get what it needs to grow.  Having some one else try to tell you what was or is for you is not useful.  I do not believe that anyone can see into these things for another person.  I feel strongly this is something a person has to find and use for themselves. 
       
      Again, my experiences with eckankar are my own.  I do not expect anyone to give validity to mine for themselves.  I tell them only to emphasize the deception of eckankar and how the truth unfolded for me.  I now view my years in eckankar as like having taken a wrong turn in the road.  But even so, a person continues to learn, while taking a detour on a spiritual journey.  I learned not to trust anyone to decide what is valid for me other than myself.  No savior is coming to save me.  No great teacher is coming to teach me.  It is up to me to gather the things I need to finish my own journey.  I can share with others but I must at all times stand on my own two feet and be responsible for my own unfoldment.  Eckankar will tell you that a master is essential and that the journey can't be made with out one.  No greater lie has ever been used to enslave people for its cause.  I wasted a lot of money on eckankar.  In our world today are some organizations with a sincere desire to help others.  Where as I would contribute directly to a non profit that can show it is in service to others, I will never ever contribute to further any form of organized religion ever again. 
       
      Please forgive me if I went on too long.  I do thank you for your input Russ. Also I thank all ex eckist who are here on this site for your contributions of wisdom.  May all of you find your way more enjoyable and certainly more unhindered while you seek unfoldment.  I do so enjoy reading what all of you have to say.  So many of you had more extensive experiences with eckankar and reading what you have to say, gives me more insight into my own.  Bless you all. 
       
      One last thought:  I am a very bad speller.  My spell check program always wants to change eckankar to canker.  Also it always wants to change eckist to icky.  So does this have any real significance?  I think it does.  Eckankar is like a canker sore infested with lies.  I sure began to feel icky before I shook off the bonds of eckankar.  Well, it's funny to me. 
      --- On Tue, 4/10/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

      From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Some Generic Words of Wisdom--Far Beyond Klemp's
      To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Tuesday, April 10, 2012, 4:09 PM

       
      I steered away from people that I felt uncomfortable around. Some of my friends were unpopular, but we shared a connection. I noticed that there was a hierarchy and I wasn't really interested in being a part of that.
       
      I remember once at a regional the new RESA, admitted that drugs opened his eyes to other realities. You should have heard the commotion! OMG. Talk about stirrring it up! And most of the people there knew exactly what he was talking about!! But that showed me that the Brother's of the Leaf weren't unified at all. He was being sincere which is a rare quality and very desirable.
       
      Somehow people feel that spiritual means I'm better than you. But not everyone was like that.
       
      Actually you mention something about the teachings didn't work. See for me, I really had some interesting experiences.  But experiences aren't how I judge spiritual progress.  for me it's about some other things. Like non identifying, and being able to stay in the moment, to be present. See, I think that eckankar taught us to overlay happiness thus deny what is happening at deeper levels of our conscoussness. We in eck didn't think it was good to talk about anything that wasn't a spiritual upper. Like if you have a struggle, don't talk it over in eck meetings, just go to an esa and give it over to the eck. so we as people weren't being real with each other, which I really wanted and always tried to acknowledge what was really going on with people. I always got looks from other HI's, but I din't care about that so much.
       
      The challenge is not to identify with what is going on. to me that is more about freedom and detachment than what is practiced in eckankar. also, if we are depending on mahanta or whatever, it's a spiritual welfare program. ironically, that is what pt, warned against. I'm not an apologist for eckankar, I just know that it was, for me, a mixed bag. 
       
      I think maybe spirit finds a way.

      From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 3:37 PM
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Some Generic Words of Wisdom--Far Beyond Klemp's
       
      Unlike you, Russ, I felt I lost myself while in eckankar.  It took some time after I left to feel like myself again.  It was the environment of eckankar and how the people acted that confused me so badly I think.  There seemed to be a world of difference in how the people were and how the eck teachings said it should be.  Eventually, I grew to feel empty in eckankar because of the lack of evidence that any of the teachings really worked as far as the relationships I saw among eckist.  There was such a lack of unity.  The gossip and the back biting among them was far worse than in any religious or spiritual group I ever saw.  When I attempted to talk about it to individuals in eckankar while attempting to understand it, I was told that I was being judgmental.  Most of the eckist I saw acted like very immature, ego ridden idiots who were all about themselves.  It wasn't a pleasant environment and it certainly didn't encourage new members to stick around.  That group wasn't growing at all.  None the less, I tried hard to believe that it was my attitude that needed to change because I wanted so much to believe that what I read in the teachings really did work. 
       
      For a while after I walked away, I did continue to use hu because I always found it comforting.  I weaned myself off of it because it was too big a part of eckankar to keep.   The only lasting concept that I took away from eckankar was the concept of the golden tongue wisdom.  The idea that one hears what one needs to hear when one needs to hear it is still valid for me.  You might hear something a dozen times with out giving it real value until you can some how apply it to your own life.  Then suddenly it has new meaning.  Or you might have an issue that you are mulling over and suddenly you hear something that may not have even been meant for you and suddenly with it, you have the clarity you need to put things in perspective. 
       
      I have always been a little to analytical.  I have always questioned more with my mind than I accept with my heart.  Since leaving eckankar, I have learned to shut down the mental aspects more and I feel like more of a loving being.  In fact, sometimes I almost feel like I enter what I can only refer to as a state of grace when I feel like I have an inner knowing that feels more perfect than any experience I ever had previously.  It takes effort to get there and even more to maintain it.  It is my belief that the brain is only useful for taking care of day to day activity.  For me it was necessary to learn to shut it down to grow more spiritually.  I think for me it was impossible to advance spiritually in eckankar for that reason.  All the concepts and eckankar crappy crap kept me locked into mental energy.  My spiritual freedom came from going within to see and feel soul.  Looking back, eckankar chains its people with supposed duties to the master to the point that I don't know how they can justify even talking about spiritual freedom. 
       
      I will say that had I not experienced eckankar, I might not have ever known what spiritual freedom was.  It was only after experiencing the chains of eckankar that I truly felt free when I walked away.  So although I have nothing but contempt for eckankar now, I must say that it did contribute to my growth but not in the way they claim.  It showed me everythig that I didn't want or need.  --- On Mon, 4/9/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

      From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Some Generic Words of Wisdom--Far Beyond Klemp's
      To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Monday, April 9, 2012, 3:05 PM

       
      Have any of you kept up with any of the spiritual practices you learned while in Eck, or have you been able to adopt them to a generic format dropping the eck words and ideas and going back to more generic form?
      I get something from declaring myself a channel for spirit and simply listening and feeling my body and breath. I mean most everything was taken from other more established practitioners and authors so they(practices and ideas) have stood on their own feet. Though we didn't learn them from the original authors, we still have had contact with them.
      I suppose some of you feel so burned that you don't even want to hear any of this; I do understand that sentiment having felt it too. I am by nature a sensitive, so I have to have practices to help me stay balanced. I gained a strong sense of my self while in eck and did derive benefits.
      Stay open to the truth and what works!
      Russ
      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2012 11:30 PM
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Some Generic Words of Wisdom--Far Beyond Klemp's
       
      Go placidly amidst the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.----- Max Ehrmann (The Desiderata).
    • Janice Pfeiffer
      Forgot to comment on the drug thing.  Yeah, I heard brief snatches of such things too and I knew one guy who did obviously appear to still be a pot head. 
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 11, 2012
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        Forgot to comment on the drug thing.  Yeah, I heard brief snatches of such things too and I knew one guy who did obviously appear to still be a pot head.  Most people seemed to ignore him at functions and seemed to pity him.   Looking back, I believe it was something that some of them, were they able to be openly honest, would have liked to talk about.  Drug use is not something you can easily know about a person.  There may be some active eckist who feel it adds to their experiences.  From everything I picked up while in eckankar, even the use of tobacco is frowned upon.  I think if eckist are doing it, it would be with out the blessing of their beloved mahanta or the org of eckankar.
         
         
        My husband who died because of drug and alcohol abuse often told me of out of the body experiences.  He described a lot of things that I did experience at a later time with out drugs.  I do believe that mind altering drugs can trigger meaningful experiences for some people even though at the same time, I think it causes an imbalance which eventually makes it hard for the drug user to differentiate between what is real and what isn't.  I believe the drugs caused him to become disoriented to the point that he became earth bound for a while after his death. 
         
        I would hope that spiritual seekers wouldn't use drugs for that purpose.  It might work as a stimulant for experience initially but continued use will only destroy the mind and cause the individual to loose spiritual ground.  To me, drugs like eckankar are a crutch that some people need because they can't face life on their own.  I don't judge the drug user.  Life can be hard and wanting to know about things beyond this earth is something most desirable.  I just feel the advantages of drug use is not equivalent to what the drugs take away. 
         
        Well, that is my humble opinion based on what I have experienced.  In spirit may you all be blessed.
        --- On Tue, 4/10/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

        From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Some Generic Words of Wisdom--Far Beyond Klemp's
        To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Tuesday, April 10, 2012, 4:09 PM

         
        I steered away from people that I felt uncomfortable around. Some of my friends were unpopular, but we shared a connection. I noticed that there was a hierarchy and I wasn't really interested in being a part of that.
         
        I remember once at a regional the new RESA, admitted that drugs opened his eyes to other realities. You should have heard the commotion! OMG. Talk about stirrring it up! And most of the people there knew exactly what he was talking about!! But that showed me that the Brother's of the Leaf weren't unified at all. He was being sincere which is a rare quality and very desirable.
         
        Somehow people feel that spiritual means I'm better than you. But not everyone was like that.
         
        Actually you mention something about the teachings didn't work. See for me, I really had some interesting experiences.  But experiences aren't how I judge spiritual progress.  for me it's about some other things. Like non identifying, and being able to stay in the moment, to be present. See, I think that eckankar taught us to overlay happiness thus deny what is happening at deeper levels of our conscoussness. We in eck didn't think it was good to talk about anything that wasn't a spiritual upper. Like if you have a struggle, don't talk it over in eck meetings, just go to an esa and give it over to the eck. so we as people weren't being real with each other, which I really wanted and always tried to acknowledge what was really going on with people. I always got looks from other HI's, but I din't care about that so much.
         
        The challenge is not to identify with what is going on. to me that is more about freedom and detachment than what is practiced in eckankar. also, if we are depending on mahanta or whatever, it's a spiritual welfare program. ironically, that is what pt, warned against. I'm not an apologist for eckankar, I just know that it was, for me, a mixed bag. 
         
        I think maybe spirit finds a way.

        From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 3:37 PM
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Some Generic Words of Wisdom--Far Beyond Klemp's
         
        Unlike you, Russ, I felt I lost myself while in eckankar.  It took some time after I left to feel like myself again.  It was the environment of eckankar and how the people acted that confused me so badly I think.  There seemed to be a world of difference in how the people were and how the eck teachings said it should be.  Eventually, I grew to feel empty in eckankar because of the lack of evidence that any of the teachings really worked as far as the relationships I saw among eckist.  There was such a lack of unity.  The gossip and the back biting among them was far worse than in any religious or spiritual group I ever saw.  When I attempted to talk about it to individuals in eckankar while attempting to understand it, I was told that I was being judgmental.  Most of the eckist I saw acted like very immature, ego ridden idiots who were all about themselves.  It wasn't a pleasant environment and it certainly didn't encourage new members to stick around.  That group wasn't growing at all.  None the less, I tried hard to believe that it was my attitude that needed to change because I wanted so much to believe that what I read in the teachings really did work. 
         
        For a while after I walked away, I did continue to use hu because I always found it comforting.  I weaned myself off of it because it was too big a part of eckankar to keep.   The only lasting concept that I took away from eckankar was the concept of the golden tongue wisdom.  The idea that one hears what one needs to hear when one needs to hear it is still valid for me.  You might hear something a dozen times with out giving it real value until you can some how apply it to your own life.  Then suddenly it has new meaning.  Or you might have an issue that you are mulling over and suddenly you hear something that may not have even been meant for you and suddenly with it, you have the clarity you need to put things in perspective. 
         
        I have always been a little to analytical.  I have always questioned more with my mind than I accept with my heart.  Since leaving eckankar, I have learned to shut down the mental aspects more and I feel like more of a loving being.  In fact, sometimes I almost feel like I enter what I can only refer to as a state of grace when I feel like I have an inner knowing that feels more perfect than any experience I ever had previously.  It takes effort to get there and even more to maintain it.  It is my belief that the brain is only useful for taking care of day to day activity.  For me it was necessary to learn to shut it down to grow more spiritually.  I think for me it was impossible to advance spiritually in eckankar for that reason.  All the concepts and eckankar crappy crap kept me locked into mental energy.  My spiritual freedom came from going within to see and feel soul.  Looking back, eckankar chains its people with supposed duties to the master to the point that I don't know how they can justify even talking about spiritual freedom. 
         
        I will say that had I not experienced eckankar, I might not have ever known what spiritual freedom was.  It was only after experiencing the chains of eckankar that I truly felt free when I walked away.  So although I have nothing but contempt for eckankar now, I must say that it did contribute to my growth but not in the way they claim.  It showed me everythig that I didn't want or need.  --- On Mon, 4/9/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

        From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Some Generic Words of Wisdom--Far Beyond Klemp's
        To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Monday, April 9, 2012, 3:05 PM

         
        Have any of you kept up with any of the spiritual practices you learned while in Eck, or have you been able to adopt them to a generic format dropping the eck words and ideas and going back to more generic form?
        I get something from declaring myself a channel for spirit and simply listening and feeling my body and breath. I mean most everything was taken from other more established practitioners and authors so they(practices and ideas) have stood on their own feet. Though we didn't learn them from the original authors, we still have had contact with them.
        I suppose some of you feel so burned that you don't even want to hear any of this; I do understand that sentiment having felt it too. I am by nature a sensitive, so I have to have practices to help me stay balanced. I gained a strong sense of my self while in eck and did derive benefits.
        Stay open to the truth and what works!
        Russ
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, April 8, 2012 11:30 PM
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Some Generic Words of Wisdom--Far Beyond Klemp's
         
        Go placidly amidst the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.----- Max Ehrmann (The Desiderata).
      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, Nice dialogue! Wow! Where to start? First, I would never suggest that a person go to the source (Sant Mat) of Twitchell s con. Religion is a
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 11, 2012
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          Hello All,
          Nice dialogue! Wow! Where
          to start?

          First, I would never suggest
          that a person go to the source
          (Sant Mat) of Twitchell's con.
          Religion is a hierarchy of B.S.
          Sant Mat is just an older and
          "Eastern" version (with jargon)
          of the same con Twit used.

          Yes, I too experienced the
          opening of the "Third Eye,"
          so to speak, prior to Eckankar.
          TM helped with that via the
          process of becoming a siddha.
          I had many profound and
          phenomenal experiences
          with the use of sutras and
          meditation.

          However, the "non-religious"
          TM thing simply opened "new"
          pathways of the mind which
          were developing anyway. I
          was reading a lot of Eastern
          philosophy prior to this and
          enjoyed other experiences
          like Sufi dancing. I can't really
          give credit to any guru since
          it was my own effort and
          focus. I just needed to hear
          from an "expert" (i.e. Master)
          that anything experienced
          (or not experienced) was
          normal and as it should be.

          Also, I'm the one who
          gave the power to the
          outer guru when the true
          guru was me. Then again,
          life is a process of discovery
          that we all find (or miss)
          one way or another if we
          put forth the effort and
          look within via introspection.
          Sometimes it's timing, choices,
          or fate.

          Prior to this I experienced
          altered states via marijuana.
          I have to say that it did open
          inner doorways. However,
          I don't recommend it for
          regular use and I don't use
          it now because I enjoy
          being in control of my
          mind. Anyway, I'm glad
          that I had the mind expanding
          experience.

          As far as using the HU
          post Eckankar... yes, but
          not lately. There comes
          a time when (IMO) we
          should find our own way
          with our own words/tools.
          Whatever we use is just
          as valid as it is with all
          religions when communicating
          with the divine.

          Prometheus

          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
          Forgot to comment on the drug thing. Yeah, I heard brief snatches of such things too and I knew one guy who did obviously appear to still be a pot head. Most people seemed to ignore him at functions and seemed to pity him. Looking back, I believe it was something that some of them, were they able to be openly honest, would have liked to talk about. Drug use is not something you can easily know about a person. There may be some active eckist who feel it adds to their experiences. From everything I picked up while in eckankar, even the use of tobacco is frowned upon. I think if eckist are doing it, it would be with out the blessing of their beloved mahanta or the org of eckankar.


          My husband who died because of drug and alcohol abuse often told me of out of the body experiences. He described a lot of things that I did experience at a later time with out drugs. I do believe that mind altering drugs can trigger meaningful experiences for some people even though at the same time, I think it causes an imbalance which eventually makes it hard for the drug user to differentiate between what is real and what isn't. I believe the drugs caused him to become disoriented to the point that he became earth bound for a while after his death.

          I would hope that spiritual seekers wouldn't use drugs for that purpose. It might work as a stimulant for experience initially but continued use will only destroy the mind and cause the individual to loose spiritual ground. To me, drugs like eckankar are a crutch that some people need because they can't face life on their own. I don't judge the drug user. Life can be hard and wanting to know about things beyond this earth is something most desirable. I just feel the advantages of drug use is not equivalent to what the drugs take away.

          Well, that is my humble opinion based on what I have experienced. In spirit may you all be blessed.



          Russ Rodnick wrote:

          I steered away from people that I felt uncomfortable around. Some of my friends were unpopular, but we shared a connection. I noticed that there was a hierarchy and I wasn't really interested in being a part of that.

          I remember once at a regional the new RESA, admitted that drugs opened his eyes to other realities. You should have heard the commotion! OMG. Talk about stirrring it up! And most of the people there knew exactly what he was talking about!! But that showed me that the Brother's of the Leaf weren't unified at all. He was being sincere which is a rare quality and very desirable.

          Somehow people feel that spiritual means I'm better than you. But not everyone was like that.

          Actually you mention something about the teachings didn't work. See for me, I really had some interesting experiences. But experiences aren't how I judge spiritual progress. for me it's about some other things. Like non identifying, and being able to stay in the moment, to be present. See, I think that eckankar taught us to overlay happiness thus deny what is happening at deeper levels of our conscoussness. We in eck didn't think it was good to talk about anything that wasn't a spiritual upper. Like if you have a struggle, don't talk it over in eck meetings, just go to an esa and give it over to the eck. so we as people weren't being real with each other, which I really wanted and always tried to acknowledge what was really going on with people. I always got looks from other HI's, but I din't care about that so much.

          The challenge is not to identify with what is going on. to me that is more about freedom and detachment than what is practiced in eckankar. also, if we are depending on mahanta or whatever, it's a spiritual welfare program. ironically, that is what pt, warned against. I'm not an apologist for eckankar, I just know that it was, for me, a mixed bag.

          I think maybe spirit finds a way.



          Janice Pfeiffer wrote:

          Unlike you, Russ, I felt I lost myself while in eckankar. It took some time after I left to feel like myself again. It was the environment of eckankar and how the people acted that confused me so badly I think. There seemed to be a world of difference in how the people were and how the eck teachings said it should be. Eventually, I grew to feel empty in eckankar because of the lack of evidence that any of the teachings really worked as far as the relationships I saw among eckist. There was such a lack of unity. The gossip and the back biting among them was far worse than in any religious or spiritual group I ever saw. When I attempted to talk about it to individuals in eckankar while attempting to understand it, I was told that I was being judgmental. Most of the eckist I saw acted like very immature, ego ridden idiots who were all about themselves. It wasn't a pleasant environment and it certainly didn't encourage new members to stick around. That group wasn't growing at all. None the less, I tried hard to believe that it was my attitude that needed to change because I wanted so much to believe that what I read in the teachings really did work.

          For a while after I walked away, I did continue to use hu because I always found it comforting. I weaned myself off of it because it was too big a part of eckankar to keep. The only lasting concept that I took away from eckankar was the concept of the golden tongue wisdom. The idea that one hears what one needs to hear when one needs to hear it is still valid for me. You might hear something a dozen times with out giving it real value until you can some how apply it to your own life. Then suddenly it has new meaning. Or you might have an issue that you are mulling over and suddenly you hear something that may not have even been meant for you and suddenly with it, you have the clarity you need to put things in perspective.

          I have always been a little to analytical. I have always questioned more with my mind than I accept with my heart. Since leaving eckankar, I have learned to shut down the mental aspects more and I feel like more of a loving being. In fact, sometimes I almost feel like I enter what I can only refer to as a state of grace when I feel like I have an inner knowing that feels more perfect than any experience I ever had previously. It takes effort to get there and even more to maintain it. It is my belief that the brain is only useful for taking care of day to day activity. For me it was necessary to learn to shut it down to grow more spiritually. I think for me it was impossible to advance spiritually in eckankar for that reason. All the concepts and eckankar crappy crap kept me locked into mental energy. My spiritual freedom came from going within to see and feel soul. Looking back, eckankar chains its people with supposed duties to the master to the point that I don't know how they can justify even talking about spiritual freedom.

          I will say that had I not experienced eckankar, I might not have ever known what spiritual freedom was. It was only after experiencing the chains of eckankar that I truly felt free when I walked away. So although I have nothing but contempt for eckankar now, I must say that it did contribute to my growth but not in the way they claim. It showed me everythig that I didn't want or need.



          Russ Rodnick wrote:

          Have any of you kept up with any of the spiritual practices you learned while in Eck, or have you been able to adopt them to a generic format dropping the eck words and ideas and going back to more generic form?
          I get something from declaring myself a channel for spirit and simply listening and feeling my body and breath. I mean most everything was taken from other more established practitioners and authors so they(practices and ideas) have stood on their own feet. Though we didn't learn them from the original authors, we still have had contact with them.
          I suppose some of you feel so burned that you don't even want to hear any of this; I do understand that sentiment having felt it too. I am by nature a sensitive, so I have to have practices to help me stay balanced. I gained a strong sense of my self while in eck and did derive benefits.
          Stay open to the truth and what works!
          Russ

          prometheus wrote:

          Go placidly amidst the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.----- Max Ehrmann (The Desiderata).
        • Non
          I have known several people who were in TM and there were lots of problems in the community as well as many neglected kids, not to mention the cost. I heard
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 17, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            I have known several people who were in TM and there were lots of problems in the community as well as many neglected kids, not to mention the cost. I heard recently that Opra is pushing TM and some small town where TM-ers are moving to. Now apparently they have their own schools for their kids with school uniforms. TM now has its own hierarchy and who knows what this means after the death of the founder. I guess they believe that their scam meditation mantras will bring about world peace. Kind of like eckists, they don't have to really "do" anything in the real world. There is also a lot of pseudo science going on as well.

            Here's some interesting web sites and funny videos:

            http://www.skepdic.com/tm.html

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFfQuCGU0ZQ

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYEF4SHLOPg&feature=related

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n98aq0jBm1s&feature=related

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=t8saRttyZ_o

            Noneckster ; )

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello All,
            > Nice dialogue! Wow! Where
            > to start?
            >
            > First, I would never suggest
            > that a person go to the source
            > (Sant Mat) of Twitchell's con.
            > Religion is a hierarchy of B.S.
            > Sant Mat is just an older and
            > "Eastern" version (with jargon)
            > of the same con Twit used.
            >
            > Yes, I too experienced the
            > opening of the "Third Eye,"
            > so to speak, prior to Eckankar.
            > TM helped with that via the
            > process of becoming a siddha.
            > I had many profound and
            > phenomenal experiences
            > with the use of sutras and
            > meditation.
            >
            > However, the "non-religious"
            > TM thing simply opened "new"
            > pathways of the mind which
            > were developing anyway. I
            > was reading a lot of Eastern
            > philosophy prior to this and
            > enjoyed other experiences
            > like Sufi dancing. I can't really
            > give credit to any guru since
            > it was my own effort and
            > focus. I just needed to hear
            > from an "expert" (i.e. Master)
            > that anything experienced
            > (or not experienced) was
            > normal and as it should be.
            >
            > Also, I'm the one who
            > gave the power to the
            > outer guru when the true
            > guru was me. Then again,
            > life is a process of discovery
            > that we all find (or miss)
            > one way or another if we
            > put forth the effort and
            > look within via introspection.
            > Sometimes it's timing, choices,
            > or fate.
            >
            > Prior to this I experienced
            > altered states via marijuana.
            > I have to say that it did open
            > inner doorways. However,
            > I don't recommend it for
            > regular use and I don't use
            > it now because I enjoy
            > being in control of my
            > mind. Anyway, I'm glad
            > that I had the mind expanding
            > experience.
            >
            > As far as using the HU
            > post Eckankar... yes, but
            > not lately. There comes
            > a time when (IMO) we
            > should find our own way
            > with our own words/tools.
            > Whatever we use is just
            > as valid as it is with all
            > religions when communicating
            > with the divine.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            > Forgot to comment on the drug thing. Yeah, I heard brief snatches of such things too and I knew one guy who did obviously appear to still be a pot head. Most people seemed to ignore him at functions and seemed to pity him. Looking back, I believe it was something that some of them, were they able to be openly honest, would have liked to talk about. Drug use is not something you can easily know about a person. There may be some active eckist who feel it adds to their experiences. From everything I picked up while in eckankar, even the use of tobacco is frowned upon. I think if eckist are doing it, it would be with out the blessing of their beloved mahanta or the org of eckankar.
            >
            >
            > My husband who died because of drug and alcohol abuse often told me of out of the body experiences. He described a lot of things that I did experience at a later time with out drugs. I do believe that mind altering drugs can trigger meaningful experiences for some people even though at the same time, I think it causes an imbalance which eventually makes it hard for the drug user to differentiate between what is real and what isn't. I believe the drugs caused him to become disoriented to the point that he became earth bound for a while after his death.
            >
            > I would hope that spiritual seekers wouldn't use drugs for that purpose. It might work as a stimulant for experience initially but continued use will only destroy the mind and cause the individual to loose spiritual ground. To me, drugs like eckankar are a crutch that some people need because they can't face life on their own. I don't judge the drug user. Life can be hard and wanting to know about things beyond this earth is something most desirable. I just feel the advantages of drug use is not equivalent to what the drugs take away.
            >
            > Well, that is my humble opinion based on what I have experienced. In spirit may you all be blessed.
            >
            >
            >
            > Russ Rodnick wrote:
            >
            > I steered away from people that I felt uncomfortable around. Some of my friends were unpopular, but we shared a connection. I noticed that there was a hierarchy and I wasn't really interested in being a part of that.
            >
            > I remember once at a regional the new RESA, admitted that drugs opened his eyes to other realities. You should have heard the commotion! OMG. Talk about stirrring it up! And most of the people there knew exactly what he was talking about!! But that showed me that the Brother's of the Leaf weren't unified at all. He was being sincere which is a rare quality and very desirable.
            >
            > Somehow people feel that spiritual means I'm better than you. But not everyone was like that.
            >
            > Actually you mention something about the teachings didn't work. See for me, I really had some interesting experiences. But experiences aren't how I judge spiritual progress. for me it's about some other things. Like non identifying, and being able to stay in the moment, to be present. See, I think that eckankar taught us to overlay happiness thus deny what is happening at deeper levels of our conscoussness. We in eck didn't think it was good to talk about anything that wasn't a spiritual upper. Like if you have a struggle, don't talk it over in eck meetings, just go to an esa and give it over to the eck. so we as people weren't being real with each other, which I really wanted and always tried to acknowledge what was really going on with people. I always got looks from other HI's, but I din't care about that so much.
            >
            > The challenge is not to identify with what is going on. to me that is more about freedom and detachment than what is practiced in eckankar. also, if we are depending on mahanta or whatever, it's a spiritual welfare program. ironically, that is what pt, warned against. I'm not an apologist for eckankar, I just know that it was, for me, a mixed bag.
            >
            > I think maybe spirit finds a way.
            >
            >
            >
            > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
            >
            > Unlike you, Russ, I felt I lost myself while in eckankar. It took some time after I left to feel like myself again. It was the environment of eckankar and how the people acted that confused me so badly I think. There seemed to be a world of difference in how the people were and how the eck teachings said it should be. Eventually, I grew to feel empty in eckankar because of the lack of evidence that any of the teachings really worked as far as the relationships I saw among eckist. There was such a lack of unity. The gossip and the back biting among them was far worse than in any religious or spiritual group I ever saw. When I attempted to talk about it to individuals in eckankar while attempting to understand it, I was told that I was being judgmental. Most of the eckist I saw acted like very immature, ego ridden idiots who were all about themselves. It wasn't a pleasant environment and it certainly didn't encourage new members to stick around. That group wasn't growing at all. None the less, I tried hard to believe that it was my attitude that needed to change because I wanted so much to believe that what I read in the teachings really did work.
            >
            > For a while after I walked away, I did continue to use hu because I always found it comforting. I weaned myself off of it because it was too big a part of eckankar to keep. The only lasting concept that I took away from eckankar was the concept of the golden tongue wisdom. The idea that one hears what one needs to hear when one needs to hear it is still valid for me. You might hear something a dozen times with out giving it real value until you can some how apply it to your own life. Then suddenly it has new meaning. Or you might have an issue that you are mulling over and suddenly you hear something that may not have even been meant for you and suddenly with it, you have the clarity you need to put things in perspective.
            >
            > I have always been a little to analytical. I have always questioned more with my mind than I accept with my heart. Since leaving eckankar, I have learned to shut down the mental aspects more and I feel like more of a loving being. In fact, sometimes I almost feel like I enter what I can only refer to as a state of grace when I feel like I have an inner knowing that feels more perfect than any experience I ever had previously. It takes effort to get there and even more to maintain it. It is my belief that the brain is only useful for taking care of day to day activity. For me it was necessary to learn to shut it down to grow more spiritually. I think for me it was impossible to advance spiritually in eckankar for that reason. All the concepts and eckankar crappy crap kept me locked into mental energy. My spiritual freedom came from going within to see and feel soul. Looking back, eckankar chains its people with supposed duties to the master to the point that I don't know how they can justify even talking about spiritual freedom.
            >
            > I will say that had I not experienced eckankar, I might not have ever known what spiritual freedom was. It was only after experiencing the chains of eckankar that I truly felt free when I walked away. So although I have nothing but contempt for eckankar now, I must say that it did contribute to my growth but not in the way they claim. It showed me everythig that I didn't want or need.
            >
            >
            >
            > Russ Rodnick wrote:
            >
            > Have any of you kept up with any of the spiritual practices you learned while in Eck, or have you been able to adopt them to a generic format dropping the eck words and ideas and going back to more generic form?
            > I get something from declaring myself a channel for spirit and simply listening and feeling my body and breath. I mean most everything was taken from other more established practitioners and authors so they(practices and ideas) have stood on their own feet. Though we didn't learn them from the original authors, we still have had contact with them.
            > I suppose some of you feel so burned that you don't even want to hear any of this; I do understand that sentiment having felt it too. I am by nature a sensitive, so I have to have practices to help me stay balanced. I gained a strong sense of my self while in eck and did derive benefits.
            > Stay open to the truth and what works!
            > Russ
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Go placidly amidst the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass. Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.----- Max Ehrmann (The Desiderata).
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Noneckster, Actually the TM schools and businesses in the U.S. have been around since the late 70s. It began in Fairfield, Iowa. There are, even, TMers
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 18, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello Noneckster,
              Actually the TM schools
              and businesses in the
              U.S. have been around
              since the late '70s. It
              began in Fairfield, Iowa.
              There are, even, TMers
              on the city council
              as well. They moved
              into the small community,
              somewhat like Eckankar
              did, but increased the
              local population two-
              three fold.

              What's amazing is that
              most TMers don't think
              TM is a religion, and it's
              not ever promoted as one.
              Nor, is "God" ever discussed
              in the presence of "citizen"
              (average) TMers. Most believe
              the hype (PR) that the techniques
              are stress reducers which
              also increases awareness,
              harmony, and world peace.

              There are even synchronized
              meditations to enhance the
              "TM effect." In the past TMers
              were sent to African countries
              where conflict was taking place
              in order to produce harmony
              and peace. Except, in TM there
              is a dress code for "Governors"
              (Lords of the Astral worlds)
              and the political leaders in
              these countries thought the
              TMers were, actually, CIA.
              LOL! It is common to send a
              TM group to Washington D.C.
              or to NYC when the United Nations
              is having an important meeting
              involving World Peace.

              What's funny is that Klemp
              has steered away from having
              synchronized HU Chants/Sings.
              HK has, even, forbidden local
              Satangs from having coordinated
              HU Chants when these are taking
              place at Major EK Seminars.

              When one is first initiated
              into TM there is a ceremony
              that is similar to the one
              that Eckankar uses, except,
              for some minor differences.
              Fruit is brought as a gift and
              is presented to the initiator.
              The initiator has a white
              handkerchief where he/she
              places white rice upon. Both
              the fruit and "White" rice are
              offered as gifts to the gods
              (devas). Prayers, are said to
              invoke the Devas while incense
              is burned. After this your
              Mantra will be given to you as
              decided by the initiator from
              a booklet provided to him/her.
              It is repeated and the initiator
              makes sure you understand
              how it is to be pronounced.
              But, they will, also, tell you
              that the pronunciation may
              change and that this is normal.

              As one progresses in TM
              Sutras are taught at retreats
              and in group situations.
              These advanced courses
              are more and more expensive
              and time consuming to
              practice on a daily basis.
              One meditates, reads the
              vedas etc., listens to audios,
              repetes sutras, levitates
              (hops), and reflects. There
              is always a tweaking while
              adding to one's daily "Program."

              What's amusing is that when
              I was joining Eckankar the
              membership donation fee
              was being raised and I heard
              some lower initiates complain
              about not having the time to
              do a 20 minute spiritual exercise/
              contemplation (once per day)!
              I set them straight. I told them
              that the cost of the TM Siddhis
              Program alone amounted to
              at least 20 years of Eckankar
              membership and that 20 minutes
              once a day was nothing when
              compared to doing, for one hour,
              "The Program" TWICE a day!

              Eckists are such wimps!

              Prometheus


              "Non" wrote:
              On Transendental Meditatiion and eckankar

              I have known several people who were in TM and there were lots of problems in
              the community as well as many neglected kids, not to mention the cost. I heard
              recently that Opra is pushing TM and some small town where TM-ers are moving to.
              Now apparently they have their own schools for their kids with school uniforms.
              TM now has its own hierarchy and who knows what this means after the death of
              the founder. I guess they believe that their scam meditation mantras will bring
              about world peace. Kind of like eckists, they don't have to really "do" anything
              in the real world. There is also a lot of pseudo science going on as well.

              Here's some interesting web sites and funny videos:

              http://www.skepdic.com/tm.html

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFfQuCGU0ZQ

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYEF4SHLOPg&feature=related

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n98aq0jBm1s&feature=related

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=fvwp&v=t8saRttyZ_o

              Noneckster ; )


              <prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hello All,
              > Nice dialogue! Wow! Where
              > to start?
              >
              > First, I would never suggest
              > that a person go to the source
              > (Sant Mat) of Twitchell's con.
              > Religion is a hierarchy of B.S.
              > Sant Mat is just an older and
              > "Eastern" version (with jargon)
              > of the same con Twit used.
              >
              > Yes, I too experienced the
              > opening of the "Third Eye,"
              > so to speak, prior to Eckankar.
              > TM helped with that via the
              > process of becoming a siddha.
              > I had many profound and
              > phenomenal experiences
              > with the use of sutras and
              > meditation.
              >
              > However, the "non-religious"
              > TM thing simply opened "new"
              > pathways of the mind which
              > were developing anyway. I
              > was reading a lot of Eastern
              > philosophy prior to this and
              > enjoyed other experiences
              > like Sufi dancing. I can't really
              > give credit to any guru since
              > it was my own effort and
              > focus. I just needed to hear
              > from an "expert" (i.e. Master)
              > that anything experienced
              > (or not experienced) was
              > normal and as it should be.
              >
              > Also, I'm the one who
              > gave the power to the
              > outer guru when the true
              > guru was me. Then again,
              > life is a process of discovery
              > that we all find (or miss)
              > one way or another if we
              > put forth the effort and
              > look within via introspection.
              > Sometimes it's timing, choices,
              > or fate.
              >
              > Prior to this I experienced
              > altered states via marijuana.
              > I have to say that it did open
              > inner doorways. However,
              > I don't recommend it for
              > regular use and I don't use
              > it now because I enjoy
              > being in control of my
              > mind. Anyway, I'm glad
              > that I had the mind expanding
              > experience.
              >
              > As far as using the HU
              > post Eckankar... yes, but
              > not lately. There comes
              > a time when (IMO) we
              > should find our own way
              > with our own words/tools.
              > Whatever we use is just
              > as valid as it is with all
              > religions when communicating
              > with the divine.
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              > Forgot to comment on the drug thing. Yeah, I heard brief snatches of such
              things too and I knew one guy who did obviously appear to still be a pot head.
              Most people seemed to ignore him at functions and seemed to pity him. Looking
              back, I believe it was something that some of them, were they able to be openly
              honest, would have liked to talk about. Drug use is not something you can
              easily know about a person. There may be some active eckist who feel it adds to
              their experiences. From everything I picked up while in eckankar, even the use
              of tobacco is frowned upon. I think if eckist are doing it, it would be with
              out the blessing of their beloved mahanta or the org of eckankar.
              >
              >
              > My husband who died because of drug and alcohol abuse often told me of out of
              the body experiences. He described a lot of things that I did experience at a
              later time with out drugs. I do believe that mind altering drugs can trigger
              meaningful experiences for some people even though at the same time, I think it
              causes an imbalance which eventually makes it hard for the drug user to
              differentiate between what is real and what isn't. I believe the drugs caused
              him to become disoriented to the point that he became earth bound for a while
              after his death.
              >
              > I would hope that spiritual seekers wouldn't use drugs for that purpose. It
              might work as a stimulant for experience initially but continued use will only
              destroy the mind and cause the individual to loose spiritual ground. To me,
              drugs like eckankar are a crutch that some people need because they can't face
              life on their own. I don't judge the drug user. Life can be hard and wanting
              to know about things beyond this earth is something most desirable. I just feel
              the advantages of drug use is not equivalent to what the drugs take away.
              >
              > Well, that is my humble opinion based on what I have experienced. In spirit
              may you all be blessed.
              >
              >
              >
              > Russ Rodnick wrote:
              >
              > I steered away from people that I felt uncomfortable around. Some of my
              friends were unpopular, but we shared a connection. I noticed that there was a
              hierarchy and I wasn't really interested in being a part of that.
              >
              > I remember once at a regional the new RESA, admitted that drugs opened his
              eyes to other realities. You should have heard the commotion! OMG. Talk about
              stirrring it up! And most of the people there knew exactly what he was talking
              about!! But that showed me that the Brother's of the Leaf weren't unified at
              all. He was being sincere which is a rare quality and very desirable.
              >
              > Somehow people feel that spiritual means I'm better than you. But not everyone
              was like that.
              >
              > Actually you mention something about the teachings didn't work. See for me, I
              really had some interesting experiences. But experiences aren't how I judge
              spiritual progress. for me it's about some other things. Like non identifying,
              and being able to stay in the moment, to be present. See, I think that eckankar
              taught us to overlay happiness thus deny what is happening at deeper levels of
              our conscoussness. We in eck didn't think it was good to talk about anything
              that wasn't a spiritual upper. Like if you have a struggle, don't talk it over
              in eck meetings, just go to an esa and give it over to the eck. so we as people
              weren't being real with each other, which I really wanted and always tried to
              acknowledge what was really going on with people. I always got looks from other
              HI's, but I din't care about that so much.
              >
              > The challenge is not to identify with what is going on. to me that is more
              about freedom and detachment than what is practiced in eckankar. also, if we are
              depending on mahanta or whatever, it's a spiritual welfare program. ironically,
              that is what pt, warned against. I'm not an apologist for eckankar, I just know
              that it was, for me, a mixed bag.
              >
              > I think maybe spirit finds a way.
              >
              >
              >
              > Janice Pfeiffer wrote:
              >
              > Unlike you, Russ, I felt I lost myself while in eckankar. It took some time
              after I left to feel like myself again. It was the environment of eckankar and
              how the people acted that confused me so badly I think. There seemed to be a
              world of difference in how the people were and how the eck teachings said it
              should be. Eventually, I grew to feel empty in eckankar because of the lack of
              evidence that any of the teachings really worked as far as the relationships I
              saw among eckist. There was such a lack of unity. The gossip and the back
              biting among them was far worse than in any religious or spiritual group I ever
              saw. When I attempted to talk about it to individuals in eckankar while
              attempting to understand it, I was told that I was being judgmental. Most of
              the eckist I saw acted like very immature, ego ridden idiots who were all about
              themselves. It wasn't a pleasant environment and it certainly didn't encourage
              new members to stick around. That group wasn't growing at all. None the less,
              I tried hard to believe that it was my attitude that needed to change because I
              wanted so much to believe that what I read in the teachings really did work.
              >
              > For a while after I walked away, I did continue to use hu because I always
              found it comforting. I weaned myself off of it because it was too big a part of
              eckankar to keep. The only lasting concept that I took away from eckankar was
              the concept of the golden tongue wisdom. The idea that one hears what one needs
              to hear when one needs to hear it is still valid for me. You might hear
              something a dozen times with out giving it real value until you can some how
              apply it to your own life. Then suddenly it has new meaning. Or you might have
              an issue that you are mulling over and suddenly you hear something that may not
              have even been meant for you and suddenly with it, you have the clarity you need
              to put things in perspective.
              >
              > I have always been a little to analytical. I have always questioned more with
              my mind than I accept with my heart. Since leaving eckankar, I have learned to
              shut down the mental aspects more and I feel like more of a loving being. In
              fact, sometimes I almost feel like I enter what I can only refer to as a state
              of grace when I feel like I have an inner knowing that feels more perfect than
              any experience I ever had previously. It takes effort to get there and even
              more to maintain it. It is my belief that the brain is only useful for taking
              care of day to day activity. For me it was necessary to learn to shut it down
              to grow more spiritually. I think for me it was impossible to advance
              spiritually in eckankar for that reason. All the concepts and eckankar crappy
              crap kept me locked into mental energy. My spiritual freedom came from going
              within to see and feel soul. Looking back, eckankar chains its people with
              supposed duties to the master to the point that I don't know how they can
              justify even talking about spiritual freedom.
              >
              > I will say that had I not experienced eckankar, I might not have ever known
              what spiritual freedom was. It was only after experiencing the chains of
              eckankar that I truly felt free when I walked away. So although I have nothing
              but contempt for eckankar now, I must say that it did contribute to my growth
              but not in the way they claim. It showed me everythig that I didn't want or
              need.
              >
              >
              >
              > Russ Rodnick wrote:
              >
              > Have any of you kept up with any of the spiritual practices you learned while
              in Eck, or have you been able to adopt them to a generic format dropping the eck
              words and ideas and going back to more generic form?
              > I get something from declaring myself a channel for spirit and simply
              listening and feeling my body and breath. I mean most everything was taken from
              other more established practitioners and authors so they(practices and ideas)
              have stood on their own feet. Though we didn't learn them from the original
              authors, we still have had contact with them.
              > I suppose some of you feel so burned that you don't even want to hear any of
              this; I do understand that sentiment having felt it too. I am by nature a
              sensitive, so I have to have practices to help me stay balanced. I gained a
              strong sense of my self while in eck and did derive benefits.
              > Stay open to the truth and what works!
              > Russ
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Go placidly amidst the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be
              in silence. As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all
              persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the
              dull and the ignorant; they too have their story. Avoid loud and aggressive
              persons, they are vexations to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others,
              you may become vain or bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser
              persons than yourself. Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep
              interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the
              changing fortunes of time. Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the
              world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
              many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism. Be
              yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for
              in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.
              Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of
              youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not
              distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and
              loneliness. Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a
              child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to
              be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is
              unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive
              Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of
              life keep peace with your soul. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
              it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.----- Max Ehrmann
              (The Desiderata).
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