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Fw: The Modern Prophet's 20/20 Hindsight Prophecies

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  • Gnothe Seauton
    ... From: morningstara To: prometheus_973 Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 2:02 AM Subject: Re: The Modern
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 17, 2012
    • 0 Attachment

      ----- Forwarded Message -----
      From: morningstara <aleaz808@...>
      To: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 2:02 AM
      Subject: Re: The Modern Prophet's 20/20 Hindsight Prophecies

      Hi
      I always appreciate reading others opinions about Eckankar as I have mine too;as a 30+ year member I have MANY questions about the slow and deliberate guidance away from the inner to me, as in Harold. When HK took over Eckankar he cleaned out the barn poop--in his funny story of the kid 'there's a pony in here someplace' digging in horse dug happily looking for the pony when the reason he was there was to make him miserable...He also stated that he could FALL on his face tomorrow and to NEVER get stuck on him as a person...in 1981. But at the 2011 WW, he stated quite the opposite--it was all personal credit being taken for chelas experiences---which hit me hard!

      Prometheus...the inner experiences are valid. I had them BEFORE eckankar. If i leave I will still have them. Masters are guides not to be worshipped. so...if HK starts wanting that adoration all powerful thing...I'm gone. Jury's still out.

      Comments?

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Yes it's true! Recently
      > Harold Klemp the self-
      > proclaimed Modern
      > Prophet of ECKankar
      > finally came out of his
      > cave, looked around,
      > saw his own shadow,
      > made a prophecy for
      > a March 2012 EK pub
      > and then returned to
      > his cave. Or, he emailed
      > it in to the ESC from
      > his vacation condo!
      >
      > "The world faces nearly
      > unprecedented changes.
      >
      > They come to uplift
      > people's consciousness
      > and there will be great
      > disruption in 'business
      > as usual.'
      >
      > Society will be shaken."
      >
      >
      > Duh! Where has Klemp
      > been for the last few
      >
      years?
      >
      > Does Klemp have his
      > head stuck in the
      > sand (on a private
      > beach) like an ostrich?
      > How oblivious! Most
      > of these "changes"
      > have already taken
      > place! He's reporting
      > old news "as if" it's
      > going to happen in
      > the future! HK is once
      > again "playing the game."
      > Maybe he doesn't think
      > H.I.s will notice the
      > misspeak? Or, maybe,
      > Klemp sees the remark
      > as being apropos to
      > the future of ECKankar.
      >
      > However, it does make
      > one wonder about Klemp's
      > mental health which seems
      > to be slipping. HK's own
      > consciousness/awareness
      > is now questionable. Is
      > this another case of the
      > blind leading the blind?
      > It seems so! How many
      > Eckists have now awakened
      > and have realized that
      > Klemp had fallen or that
      > he never was what he
      has
      > claimed?
      >
      > I predict that there will be
      > more unrest and disruption
      > within the ECK ranks, but
      > that most will seek solace
      > in their pretend world on
      > the "inner."
      >
      > Prometheus
      >




    • etznab18
      I always appreciate reading others opinions about Eckankar as I have mine too; as a 30+ year member I have MANY questions about the slow and deliberate
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 17, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        "I always appreciate reading others opinions about Eckankar as I have mine too; as a 30+ year member I have MANY questions about the slow and deliberate guidance away from the inner to me, as in Harold. [....]"

        "Inner Master" (by various other names) is a very popular and common item. "Living Master" exists in various other forms, too - depending on religion / path.

        I wonder if this thing between "Inner" and "Outer" Master is the big problem, because writings I have see try to have it both ways. That the two are and are not the same.

        Julian Johnson in his 1939 book The Path Of The Masters illustrated it this way:

        4. THE MASTER AND THE SUPREME ONE

        There is one quality of the great Masters which I hesitate to write
        down here because it is so difficult to avoid misunderstanding on
        this subject; yet it must be written. It is a fact that there is no
        difference between the real saint, or Master, and the supreme being himself, that is, there is no difference, except that a saint is
        humanly embodied and is to some extent limited by that embodiment.

        http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt

        I believe Paul Twitchell and Harold Klemp illustrated The Living Eck Master was a "vehicle" for the Mahanta. And I believe Paul Twitchell also attributed "limitation" to the "Living Eck Master".

        "The historical Mahanta is the bodily manifestation of the eternal Mahanta and is the aspect in which the Divine One becomes incarnate in human form. The historical Mahanta possesses the same qualities as
        the Divine One in Its second aspect, and manifests them as far as they can be manifested within the limitations of human nature within a definite point in history."

        - Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One, by Paul Twitchell, p. 33

        IMO that reference suggests "limitations of human nature" and it does not suggest the historical Mahanta possesses qualities same as the Divine One in Its first aspect. No. It mentions second aspect - and even then "... manifests them as far as they can be manifested within the limitations of human nature ... ."

        In the Shariyat (same page) Paul illustrated what he called the triple aspects of the Sugmad which are the three bodies of the Mahanta.

        "The three bodies of the Mahanta: the absolute primordial, the eternal Mahanta, called the clear voice of God, which dwells in the heart of the Ocean of Love and Mercy; second, the body of glory; the ECK, the Cosmic Spirit, the Sound Current that which is all life, giving existence to all things; third, is the body of manifestation, the transformation, the historical Mahanta, the Living ECK Master in every age, who is the Eternal One, the bodily manifestation of the Sugmad."

        - Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One, by Paul Twitchell, p. 33

        Some more about this can be found after searching The Far Contry for the word "embodied".

        http://www.archive.org/stream/farcountry017342mbp/farcountry017342mbp_djvu.txt

        The rest of the paragraph by Julian Johnson (that I gave at beginning of this post) reads:

        ... And when we say that the supreme one is embodied in this man whom we call a saint, let no one be troubled. We do not mean to say that the whole of the supreme one is so embodied. We could not be accused of suggesting that the infinite one has abandoned the presidency of the universe and enclosed his entire godhood in this one poor human body! The supreme one is the infinite, limitless whole of spiritual existence. It would be absurd to suggest that the universal soul of all souls, of all worlds, could be wholly centered in and limited to this one physical body. But it is nevertheless true that the supreme soul has taken form in this body.

        http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt

        It looks to me like this having it both ways is troublesome.

        Spiritual leaders may have claimed not to be God (including Jesus), but many of the followers made a God out of them nonetheless. Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross and Harold Klemp all became "Godmen". And before Paul T. there was (according to Paul Twitchell) a "Godman" called Rebazar Tarzs; even though the later oft appears animated by the writings of other authors.

        It seems to me that some people have an initial tendency to worship anything that appears to be a "God on Earth". However, these "Gods" on Earth (IMO) have drawn heavily from words and writings of other people before their time. Including books written by other people.

        Recently I read an article about a man who claimed to be a war hero of some kind, but he made it up. They were talking about whether or not the man should be punished. But why did the man do it? Common sense tells me he did it to impress public opinion.

        Supreme Court to hear arguments on whether a lie is protected speech

        http://tinyurl.com/7knehzf

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Gnothe Seauton <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Forwarded Message -----
        > From: morningstara <aleaz808@...>
        > To: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        > Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2012 2:02 AM
        > Subject: Re: The Modern Prophet's 20/20 Hindsight Prophecies
        >
        > Hi
        > I always appreciate reading others opinions about Eckankar as I have mine too;as a 30+ year member I have MANY questions about the slow and deliberate guidance away from the inner to me, as in Harold. When HK took over Eckankar he cleaned out the barn poop--in his funny story of the kid 'there's a pony in here someplace' digging in horse dug happily looking for the pony when the reason he was there was to make him miserable...He also stated that he could FALL on his face tomorrow and to NEVER get stuck on him as a person...in 1981. But at the 2011 WW, he stated quite the opposite--it was all personal credit being taken for chelas experiences---which hit me hard!
        >
        > Prometheus...the inner experiences are valid. I had them BEFORE eckankar. If i leave I will still have them. Masters are guides not to be worshipped. so...if HK starts wanting that adoration all powerful thing...I'm gone. Jury's still out.
        >
        > Comments?
        >
        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Yes it's true! Recently
        > > Harold Klemp the self-
        > > proclaimed Modern
        > > Prophet of ECKankar
        > > finally came out of his
        > > cave, looked around,
        > > saw his own shadow,
        > > made a prophecy for
        > > a March 2012 EK pub
        > > and then returned to
        > > his cave. Or, he emailed
        > > it in to the ESC from
        > > his vacation condo!
        > >
        > > "The world faces nearly
        > > unprecedented changes.
        > >
        > > They come to uplift
        > > people's consciousness
        > > and there will be great
        > > disruption in 'business
        > > as usual.'
        > >
        > > Society will be shaken."
        > >
        > >
        > > Duh! Where has Klemp
        > > been for the last few
        > > years?
        > >
        > > Does Klemp have his
        > > head stuck in the
        > > sand (on a private
        > > beach) like an ostrich?
        > > How oblivious! Most
        > > of these "changes"
        > > have already taken
        > > place! He's reporting
        > > old news "as if" it's
        > > going to happen in
        > > the future! HK is once
        > > again "playing the game."
        > > Maybe he doesn't think
        > > H.I.s will notice the
        > > misspeak? Or, maybe,
        > > Klemp sees the remark
        > > as being apropos to
        > > the future of ECKankar.
        > >
        > > However, it does make
        > > one wonder about Klemp's
        > > mental health which seems
        > > to be slipping. HK's own
        > > consciousness/awareness
        > > is now questionable. Is
        > > this another case of the
        > > blind leading the blind?
        > > It seems so! How many
        > > Eckists have now awakened
        > > and have realized that
        > > Klemp had fallen or that
        > > he never was what he has
        > > claimed?
        > >
        > > I predict that there will be
        > > more unrest and disruption
        > > within the ECK ranks, but
        > > that most will seek solace
        > > in their pretend world on
        > > the "inner."
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Etznab and All, First, I should make it clear that, IMO, the sources of Twitchell s Eckankar fraud, Sant Mat, is itself a fraudulent religion.
        Message 3 of 3 , Mar 19, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Etznab and All,
          First, I should make it
          clear that, IMO, the sources
          of Twitchell's Eckankar
          fraud, Sant Mat, is itself
          a fraudulent religion.

          "Spiritual" Hierarchies
          are frauds. It's limiting
          and is of a reversed mind-
          set. In actuality it's: As
          Below, So Above! After
          all, men created God in
          their own image!

          Yes, this whole Inner/Outer
          Master thing is a Catch-22
          scam/hoax. In Eckankar,
          once the individual has
          reached the 5th initiation
          their consciousness is,
          supposedly, established
          on the Soul Plane. However,
          as Soul they still need to
          evolve... and return to the
          Home (Ocean of Love and
          Mercy) that they were booted
          from... or so the story goes.
          It's a revamp of the Garden
          of Eden story for Soul versus
          the physical body and PT's
          remake with Adom and Ede
          (see Polarians).

          Anyway, most of these
          pseudo-Masters hide away...
          like Klemp. They don't want
          too much public exposure
          because it would ruin the
          mental image of them that
          their chelas have created via
          religious dogma. HK's arrested
          social development causes
          him to make inappropriate
          comments and assumptions.

          True, Klemp has said that
          he's "not perfect," but that
          disclaimer is for those chelas
          who have seen him and Joan
          at the ESC, the Eden Prairie
          Mall or at the chiropractor's
          office. Of course these chelas
          are in awe and for them it's
          like seeing royalty. Plus,
          Klemp's disclaimer is to
          excuse his stuttering, note
          card fumbling, and inappropriate
          comments about Joan when
          onstage giving a talk, and
          is meant for those longtime
          H.I.s who aren't quite so
          enamored with him or his
          Story Telling, RESAs, and
          especially his ESC Guidelines.

          However, As Soul aren't
          we all equal? Of course!

          Therefore, how is it
          that "a Master's Soul"
          is greater than a non-
          Master's Soul? It's not!
          But, that's what dogma
          is for. That's the trap!
          It's that stick and carrot
          thing with "initiations"
          (i.e. short comings, guilt,
          shame, hopes, promises,
          goals, desires) that keeps
          any and all religions going
          and the higher ups living
          smug, care free, and well.

          The only difference, it would
          seem, between the two Souls,
          is that on the "Outer" (where
          imperfection, blatantly, exists)
          the Master Soul has "realized"
          their divinity... or so they
          say and act. On the INNER
          we have to take their word
          for what they claim. Unless
          our minds "prove" their claims
          for us in our dreams. That
          kind of reminds me of Faquir
          Chand (SIC?). He was a Sant
          Mat Master and he said that
          he wasn't aware of the dreams
          his chelas had with him in
          them. He was honest. He
          knew that the mind would
          create what it desired and
          would do so in all kinds of
          ways.

          Realization, of course,
          is a mental exercise with
          feelings, self-awareness
          and visualizations. Without
          the mind/brain functions
          nothing would be accomplished,
          experienced, created, or
          imagined. For many, this
          mental experience becomes
          "spiritual" whether accurate
          or not.

          Prometheus



          Etznab wrote:
          "I always appreciate reading others opinions about Eckankar as I have mine too;
          as a 30+ year member I have MANY questions about the slow and deliberate
          guidance away from the inner to me, as in Harold. [....]"

          "Inner Master" (by various other names) is a very popular and common item.
          "Living Master" exists in various other forms, too - depending on religion /
          path.

          I wonder if this thing between "Inner" and "Outer" Master is the big problem,
          because writings I have see try to have it both ways. That the two are and are
          not the same.

          Julian Johnson in his 1939 book The Path Of The Masters illustrated it this way:

          4. THE MASTER AND THE SUPREME ONE

          There is one quality of the great Masters which I hesitate to write
          down here because it is so difficult to avoid misunderstanding on
          this subject; yet it must be written. It is a fact that there is no
          difference between the real saint, or Master, and the supreme being himself,
          that is, there is no difference, except that a saint is
          humanly embodied and is to some extent limited by that embodiment.

          http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt

          I believe Paul Twitchell and Harold Klemp illustrated The Living Eck Master was
          a "vehicle" for the Mahanta. And I believe Paul Twitchell also attributed
          "limitation" to the "Living Eck Master".

          "The historical Mahanta is the bodily manifestation of the eternal Mahanta and
          is the aspect in which the Divine One becomes incarnate in human form. The
          historical Mahanta possesses the same qualities as
          the Divine One in Its second aspect, and manifests them as far as they can be
          manifested within the limitations of human nature within a definite point in
          history."

          - Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One, by Paul Twitchell, p. 33

          IMO that reference suggests "limitations of human nature" and it does not
          suggest the historical Mahanta possesses qualities same as the Divine One in Its
          first aspect. No. It mentions second aspect - and even then "... manifests them
          as far as they can be manifested within the limitations of human nature ... ."

          In the Shariyat (same page) Paul illustrated what he called the triple aspects
          of the Sugmad which are the three bodies of the Mahanta.

          "The three bodies of the Mahanta: the absolute primordial, the eternal Mahanta,
          called the clear voice of God, which dwells in the heart of the Ocean of Love
          and Mercy; second, the body of glory; the ECK, the Cosmic Spirit, the Sound
          Current that which is all life, giving existence to all things; third, is the
          body of manifestation, the transformation, the historical Mahanta, the Living
          ECK Master in every age, who is the Eternal One, the bodily manifestation of the
          Sugmad."

          - Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Book One, by Paul Twitchell, p. 33

          Some more about this can be found after searching The Far Contry for the word
          "embodied".

          http://www.archive.org/stream/farcountry017342mbp/farcountry017342mbp_djvu.txt

          The rest of the paragraph by Julian Johnson (that I gave at beginning of this
          post) reads:

          ... And when we say that the supreme one is embodied in this man whom we call a
          saint, let no one be troubled. We do not mean to say that the whole of the
          supreme one is so embodied. We could not be accused of suggesting that the
          infinite one has abandoned the presidency of the universe and enclosed his
          entire godhood in this one poor human body! The supreme one is the infinite,
          limitless whole of spiritual existence. It would be absurd to suggest that the
          universal soul of all souls, of all worlds, could be wholly centered in and
          limited to this one physical body. But it is nevertheless true that the supreme
          soul has taken form in this body.

          http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters_djvu.txt

          It looks to me like this having it both ways is troublesome.

          Spiritual leaders may have claimed not to be God (including Jesus), but many of
          the followers made a God out of them nonetheless. Paul Twitchell, Darwin Gross
          and Harold Klemp all became "Godmen". And before Paul T. there was (according to
          Paul Twitchell) a "Godman" called Rebazar Tarzs; even though the later oft
          appears animated by the writings of other authors.

          It seems to me that some people have an initial tendency to worship anything
          that appears to be a "God on Earth". However, these "Gods" on Earth (IMO) have
          drawn heavily from words and writings of other people before their time.
          Including books written by other people.

          Recently I read an article about a man who claimed to be a war hero of some
          kind, but he made it up. They were talking about whether or not the man should
          be punished. But why did the man do it? Common sense tells me he did it to
          impress public opinion.

          Supreme Court to hear arguments on whether a lie is protected speech

          http://tinyurl.com/7knehzf

          prometheus wrote:
          ----- Forwarded Message -----

          From: morningstara <aleaz808@...

          To: prometheus_973

          Subject: Re: The Modern Prophet's 20/20 Hindsight Prophecies
          >
          Hi
          I always appreciate reading others opinions about Eckankar as I have mine
          too;as a 30+ year member I have MANY questions about the slow and deliberate
          guidance away from the inner to me, as in Harold. When HK took over Eckankar he
          cleaned out the barn poop--in his funny story of the kid 'there's a pony in here
          someplace' digging in horse dug happily looking for the pony when the reason he
          was there was to make him miserable...He also stated that he could FALL on his
          face tomorrow and to NEVER get stuck on him as a person...in 1981. But at the
          2011 WW, he stated quite the opposite--it was all personal credit being taken
          for chelas experiences---which hit me hard!

          Prometheus...the inner experiences are valid. I had them BEFORE eckankar. If i
          leave I will still have them. Masters are guides not to be worshipped. so...if
          HK starts wanting that adoration all powerful thing...I'm gone. Jury's still
          out.

          Comments?


          prometheus_973@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Yes it's true! Recently
          > > Harold Klemp the self-
          > > proclaimed Modern
          > > Prophet of ECKankar
          > > finally came out of his
          > > cave, looked around,
          > > saw his own shadow,
          > > made a prophecy for
          > > a March 2012 EK pub
          > > and then returned to
          > > his cave. Or, he emailed
          > > it in to the ESC from
          > > his vacation condo!
          > >
          > > "The world faces nearly
          > > unprecedented changes.
          > >
          > > They come to uplift
          > > people's consciousness
          > > and there will be great
          > > disruption in 'business
          > > as usual.'
          > >
          > > Society will be shaken."
          > >
          > >
          > > Duh! Where has Klemp
          > > been for the last few
          > > years?
          > >
          > > Does Klemp have his
          > > head stuck in the
          > > sand (on a private
          > > beach) like an ostrich?
          > > How oblivious! Most
          > > of these "changes"
          > > have already taken
          > > place! He's reporting
          > > old news "as if" it's
          > > going to happen in
          > > the future! HK is once
          > > again "playing the game."
          > > Maybe he doesn't think
          > > H.I.s will notice the
          > > misspeak? Or, maybe,
          > > Klemp sees the remark
          > > as being apropos to
          > > the future of ECKankar.
          > >
          > > However, it does make
          > > one wonder about Klemp's
          > > mental health which seems
          > > to be slipping. HK's own
          > > consciousness/awareness
          > > is now questionable. Is
          > > this another case of the
          > > blind leading the blind?
          > > It seems so! How many
          > > Eckists have now awakened
          > > and have realized that
          > > Klemp had fallen or that
          > > he never was what he has
          > > claimed?
          > >
          > > I predict that there will be
          > > more unrest and disruption
          > > within the ECK ranks, but
          > > that most will seek solace
          > > in their pretend world on
          > > the "inner."
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
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