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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand

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  • etznab@aol.com
    I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and pieces that are useful to me.I don t know if this is the best way or not to seek enlightenment but it is the only
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
      "I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and pieces that are useful to
      me.I don't know if this is the best way or not to seek enlightenment
      but it is the only way I can go at this point."

      What I have found about reading is that readings don't always divulge
      their source(s), author(s) and history(s). In many cases (I have found,
      especially with religions and ancient history) most, if not all of
      those things appear to get embellished, and / or turn into pseudo
      man-made history and religion. If a "compiler" knows the source(s) from
      which they compile(d) and attribute(s) a different source, author,
      history ...? I naturally ask: What does it mean? Does it even convey
      natural events and history?

      The only thing I know to help is exploring and checking the "source(s)"
      of what I read. This is not something I did very much in the beginning
      with Eckankar writings. However, I think it probably one of the sure
      ways to arrive at a more comprehensive truth. Even if it means death of
      an ideal.

      The harder part, in my experience, is finding another more ideal ideal.
      One closer to the actual truth about God, Soul and Spiritual matters
      (Including what is heaven and hell really?). IMO, this - the final
      interpretation - does not have to hinge on the opinions, beliefs,
      writings of others alone. It can hinge on what I alone KNOW to be true.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 2:13 pm
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand

       
      Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience.  I too
      enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
      for a while after leaving until I found other words to use.  There was
      a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
      the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others.  I would prefer
      to read the originals.  The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
      those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
      if it is beneficial.  The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting.  I
      don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
      or religious group again.  I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
      pieces that are useful to me.  I don't know if this is the best way or
      not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
      point.  I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
      eckankar and since leaving.  It makes me feel less alone in my own
      journey.  It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
      what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development.  The
      one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies.  To me
      this is inexcusable.  I hope through hearing from people like you I
      will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
      another.  I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
      because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
      certain amount of my attention.  I don't think about it continually but
      wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste.  There
      will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
      people for self glorification.  Part of me just can't seem to let go
      because I  see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
      who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies. 
      Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
      I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others.  These
      can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right.  I could
      certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
      things.  Thanks

      --- On Fri, 2/17/12, russrodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

      From: russrodnick <russrodnick@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 3:33 PM

        Good Day All!

      Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

      I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
      missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
      current.

      What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
      it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
      severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

      I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
      (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
      awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
      part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

      I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
      simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
      about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
      only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
      followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
      can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
      believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
      us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
      teacher.

      So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
      leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
      and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
      thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
      And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
      also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

      What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
      faall awwaaaay.

      Russ
    • etznab@aol.com
      Plus, Gail s not going to tell him the truth anyway because she d be admitting to her participation in the scam! According to the contract of sale , I
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
        "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
        admitting to her participation
        in the scam!"

        According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
        all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
        possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.

        There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
        don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
        this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.

        I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
        really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
        she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
        same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
        struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
        haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
        TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.

        Etznab

        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

         
        Hello All,
        Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
        Gross and Twitchell
        have taught us about
        the religious con. Many
        Eckists are still learning
        and will never understand
        the lesson. The longer
        one remains under the
        influence the more stuck
        they become. These long-
        time EKists are generally
        identified via impressive
        titles and higher initiations.
        Other than that these three
        were not true teachers and
        certainly weren't masters...
        except at deceit.

        I think that the best lie can
        be told when the teller allows
        himself to believe it as well.
        Plus, of course, a little truth
        mixed in also helps to make
        it more believable.

        Twitchell (and Gail) were the
        two originators of the lie and
        were more aware of the distortions
        than the Twitchells' followers.

        Next came Gross (and Gail
        again). By being once removed
        from the con it appears that
        Darwin did, at first, believe
        some of Twitchell's religious
        myth. But, Gail, of course,
        never believed any of Paul's
        Mastership Stories. She did
        like the attention, to a degree,
        and the friendships she had
        made. Mostly, she likes the
        things that money could/can
        buy.

        Next came Klemp. He despised
        Darwin because of the womanizing,
        flashy egocentric appearance,
        and DG's big spending habits.
        However, HK was also envious
        of Darwin's power and title/status.
        Klemp learned how to "play-the-
        game" in order to be released
        early from a mental institution
        in 1970 and flew under the radar
        to have Darwin trust him and
        need him (depend upon him)
        to write EK publications.

        Klemp showed Darwin what he
        wanted to see... a meek and mild
        admirer who was easily controlled.
        This way Darwin could continue
        to have fun and the admiration
        of Eckists while Klemp would run
        the business and write the books.

        Since Klemp is more removed
        from the original truth of Eckankar
        being a scam and a vocation for
        the Twitchells' I do think that he's
        deluded enough to believe the
        hype... to a certain point. Plus,
        Gail's not going to tell him the
        truth anyway because she'd be
        admitting to her participation
        in the scam! BTW- Did you know
        that Harold's daughter, Marion,
        has the middle name of Gail.

        Klemp wants to believe the hype
        because he's not only a narcissist,
        and is vain, but he's also mentally
        unstable.

        He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
        principle. When people write to him
        and say they saw him in their dreams
        yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
        it.... to a degree. The problem is
        that Klemp doesn't remember any
        of it! He's unaware of what's going
        on (on the "INNER") and that's why
        he needs Eckists to "write" to him
        via their snail-mail testimonials.

        So, how does HK rationalize it?
        Well, he's getting what he wants...
        financial security, admiration,
        and he's the boss!

        Eckists get what they want
        and need. Someone to look
        up to, worship, dream of &
        journal, believe in and trust!
        And, they have EK Centers,
        Worship Services, HU Sings,
        Harji potlucks, their books,
        CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
        seminars, invisible and
        immortal ECK Masters and
        those Higher Initiations!

        Prometheus



        Janice wrote:

        Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
        enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
        for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
        a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
        the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
        to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
        those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
        if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
        don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
        or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
        pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
        not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
        point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
        eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
        journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
        what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
        one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
        this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
        will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
        another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
        because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
        certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
        wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
        will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
        people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
        because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
        who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
        Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
        I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
        can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
        certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
        things. Thanks

        Russ wrote:

        Good Day All!

        Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

        I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
        missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
        current.

        What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
        it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
        severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

        I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
        (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
        awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
        part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

        I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
        simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
        about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
        only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
        followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
        can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
        believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
        us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
        teacher.

        So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
        leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
        and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
        thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
        And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
        also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

        What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
        faall awwaaaay.

        Russ
      • Janice Pfeiffer
        Thank you also etznab.  You said it much better than I ever could.  There is a lot of widom in your words. ... From: etznab@aol.com Subject:
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
          Thank you also etznab.  You said it much better than I ever could.  There is a lot of widom in your words.

          --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

          From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:19 PM

           
          "I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and pieces that are useful to
          me.I don't know if this is the best way or not to seek enlightenment
          but it is the only way I can go at this point."

          What I have found about reading is that readings don't always divulge
          their source(s), author(s) and history(s). In many cases (I have found,
          especially with religions and ancient history) most, if not all of
          those things appear to get embellished, and / or turn into pseudo
          man-made history and religion. If a "compiler" knows the source(s) from
          which they compile(d) and attribute(s) a different source, author,
          history ...? I naturally ask: What does it mean? Does it even convey
          natural events and history?

          The only thing I know to help is exploring and checking the "source(s)"
          of what I read. This is not something I did very much in the beginning
          with Eckankar writings. However, I think it probably one of the sure
          ways to arrive at a more comprehensive truth. Even if it means death of
          an ideal.

          The harder part, in my experience, is finding another more ideal ideal.
          One closer to the actual truth about God, Soul and Spiritual matters
          (Including what is heaven and hell really?). IMO, this - the final
          interpretation - does not have to hinge on the opinions, beliefs,
          writings of others alone. It can hinge on what I alone KNOW to be true.

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 2:13 pm
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand

           
          Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience.  I too
          enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
          for a while after leaving until I found other words to use.  There was
          a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
          the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others.  I would prefer
          to read the originals.  The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
          those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
          if it is beneficial.  The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting.  I
          don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
          or religious group again.  I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
          pieces that are useful to me.  I don't know if this is the best way or
          not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
          point.  I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
          eckankar and since leaving.  It makes me feel less alone in my own
          journey.  It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
          what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development.  The
          one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies.  To me
          this is inexcusable.  I hope through hearing from people like you I
          will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
          another.  I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
          because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
          certain amount of my attention.  I don't think about it continually but
          wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste.  There
          will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
          people for self glorification.  Part of me just can't seem to let go
          because I  see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
          who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies. 
          Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
          I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others.  These
          can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right.  I could
          certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
          things.  Thanks

          --- On Fri, 2/17/12, russrodnick &lt;russrodnick@...&gt; wrote:

          From: russrodnick &lt;russrodnick@...&gt;
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 3:33 PM

            Good Day All!

          Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

          I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
          missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
          current.

          What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
          it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
          severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

          I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
          (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
          awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
          part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

          I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
          simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
          about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
          only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
          followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
          can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
          believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
          us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
          teacher.

          So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
          leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
          and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
          thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
          And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
          also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

          What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
          faall awwaaaay.

          Russ

        • Janice Pfeiffer
          I was reading Minnesota s requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
            I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read, members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
             
            I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier time maintianing their status there.
             
            Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members?  Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country members.
            --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

            From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM

             
            "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
            admitting to her participation
            in the scam!"

            According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
            all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
            possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.

            There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
            don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
            this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.

            I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
            really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
            she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
            same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
            struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
            haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
            TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.

            Etznab

            -----Original Message-----
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

             
            Hello All,
            Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
            Gross and Twitchell
            have taught us about
            the religious con. Many
            Eckists are still learning
            and will never understand
            the lesson. The longer
            one remains under the
            influence the more stuck
            they become. These long-
            time EKists are generally
            identified via impressive
            titles and higher initiations.
            Other than that these three
            were not true teachers and
            certainly weren't masters...
            except at deceit.

            I think that the best lie can
            be told when the teller allows
            himself to believe it as well.
            Plus, of course, a little truth
            mixed in also helps to make
            it more believable.

            Twitchell (and Gail) were the
            two originators of the lie and
            were more aware of the distortions
            than the Twitchells' followers.

            Next came Gross (and Gail
            again). By being once removed
            from the con it appears that
            Darwin did, at first, believe
            some of Twitchell's religious
            myth. But, Gail, of course,
            never believed any of Paul's
            Mastership Stories. She did
            like the attention, to a degree,
            and the friendships she had
            made. Mostly, she likes the
            things that money could/can
            buy.

            Next came Klemp. He despised
            Darwin because of the womanizing,
            flashy egocentric appearance,
            and DG's big spending habits.
            However, HK was also envious
            of Darwin's power and title/status.
            Klemp learned how to "play-the-
            game" in order to be released
            early from a mental institution
            in 1970 and flew under the radar
            to have Darwin trust him and
            need him (depend upon him)
            to write EK publications.

            Klemp showed Darwin what he
            wanted to see... a meek and mild
            admirer who was easily controlled.
            This way Darwin could continue
            to have fun and the admiration
            of Eckists while Klemp would run
            the business and write the books.

            Since Klemp is more removed
            from the original truth of Eckankar
            being a scam and a vocation for
            the Twitchells' I do think that he's
            deluded enough to believe the
            hype... to a certain point. Plus,
            Gail's not going to tell him the
            truth anyway because she'd be
            admitting to her participation
            in the scam! BTW- Did you know
            that Harold's daughter, Marion,
            has the middle name of Gail.

            Klemp wants to believe the hype
            because he's not only a narcissist,
            and is vain, but he's also mentally
            unstable.

            He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
            principle. When people write to him
            and say they saw him in their dreams
            yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
            it.... to a degree. The problem is
            that Klemp doesn't remember any
            of it! He's unaware of what's going
            on (on the "INNER") and that's why
            he needs Eckists to "write" to him
            via their snail-mail testimonials.

            So, how does HK rationalize it?
            Well, he's getting what he wants...
            financial security, admiration,
            and he's the boss!

            Eckists get what they want
            and need. Someone to look
            up to, worship, dream of &
            journal, believe in and trust!
            And, they have EK Centers,
            Worship Services, HU Sings,
            Harji potlucks, their books,
            CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
            seminars, invisible and
            immortal ECK Masters and
            those Higher Initiations!

            Prometheus

            Janice wrote:

            Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
            enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
            for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
            a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
            the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
            to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
            those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
            if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
            don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
            or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
            pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
            not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
            point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
            eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
            journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
            what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
            one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
            this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
            will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
            another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
            because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
            certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
            wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
            will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
            people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
            because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
            who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
            Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
            I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
            can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
            certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
            things. Thanks

            Russ wrote:

            Good Day All!

            Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

            I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
            missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
            current.

            What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
            it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
            severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

            I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
            (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
            awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
            part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

            I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
            simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
            about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
            only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
            followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
            can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
            believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
            us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
            teacher.

            So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
            leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
            and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
            thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
            And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
            also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

            What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
            faall awwaaaay.

            Russ

          • etznab@aol.com
            Try researching the definition for corporation sole. A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ( sole ) incorporated office, occupied by a
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
              Try researching the definition for corporation sole.

              A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
              incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

              My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
              Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
              this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
              is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
              can in any way trump the single individual in charge.

              Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
              that first. I think they can, but are not sure.

              Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
              One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
              with legal voting rights.

              Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
              the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 5:32 pm
              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

               
              I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the
              rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal
              regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read,
              members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of
              directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a
              chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board
              of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials
              can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
               
              I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of
              Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining
              nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view
              of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that
              it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier
              time maintianing their status there.
               
              Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members? 
              Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that
              would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I
              mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country
              members.
              --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:


              From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM

                "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
              admitting to her participation
              in the scam!"

              According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
              all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
              possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.

              There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
              don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
              this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.

              I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
              really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
              she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
              same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
              struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
              haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
              TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.

              Etznab

              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

               
              Hello All,
              Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
              Gross and Twitchell
              have taught us about
              the religious con. Many
              Eckists are still learning
              and will never understand
              the lesson. The longer
              one remains under the
              influence the more stuck
              they become. These long-
              time EKists are generally
              identified via impressive
              titles and higher initiations.
              Other than that these three
              were not true teachers and
              certainly weren't masters...
              except at deceit.

              I think that the best lie can
              be told when the teller allows
              himself to believe it as well.
              Plus, of course, a little truth
              mixed in also helps to make
              it more believable.

              Twitchell (and Gail) were the
              two originators of the lie and
              were more aware of the distortions
              than the Twitchells' followers.

              Next came Gross (and Gail
              again). By being once removed
              from the con it appears that
              Darwin did, at first, believe
              some of Twitchell's religious
              myth. But, Gail, of course,
              never believed any of Paul's
              Mastership Stories. She did
              like the attention, to a degree,
              and the friendships she had
              made. Mostly, she likes the
              things that money could/can
              buy.

              Next came Klemp. He despised
              Darwin because of the womanizing,
              flashy egocentric appearance,
              and DG's big spending habits.
              However, HK was also envious
              of Darwin's power and title/status.
              Klemp learned how to "play-the-
              game" in order to be released
              early from a mental institution
              in 1970 and flew under the radar
              to have Darwin trust him and
              need him (depend upon him)
              to write EK publications.

              Klemp showed Darwin what he
              wanted to see... a meek and mild
              admirer who was easily controlled.
              This way Darwin could continue
              to have fun and the admiration
              of Eckists while Klemp would run
              the business and write the books.

              Since Klemp is more removed
              from the original truth of Eckankar
              being a scam and a vocation for
              the Twitchells' I do think that he's
              deluded enough to believe the
              hype... to a certain point. Plus,
              Gail's not going to tell him the
              truth anyway because she'd be
              admitting to her participation
              in the scam! BTW- Did you know
              that Harold's daughter, Marion,
              has the middle name of Gail.

              Klemp wants to believe the hype
              because he's not only a narcissist,
              and is vain, but he's also mentally
              unstable.

              He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
              principle. When people write to him
              and say they saw him in their dreams
              yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
              it.... to a degree. The problem is
              that Klemp doesn't remember any
              of it! He's unaware of what's going
              on (on the "INNER") and that's why
              he needs Eckists to "write" to him
              via their snail-mail testimonials.

              So, how does HK rationalize it?
              Well, he's getting what he wants...
              financial security, admiration,
              and he's the boss!

              Eckists get what they want
              and need. Someone to look
              up to, worship, dream of &
              journal, believe in and trust!
              And, they have EK Centers,
              Worship Services, HU Sings,
              Harji potlucks, their books,
              CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
              seminars, invisible and
              immortal ECK Masters and
              those Higher Initiations!

              Prometheus

              Janice wrote:

              Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
              enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
              for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
              a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
              the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
              to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
              those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
              if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
              don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
              or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
              pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
              not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
              point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
              eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
              journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
              what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
              one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
              this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
              will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
              another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
              because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
              certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
              wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
              will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
              people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
              because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
              who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
              Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
              I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
              can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
              certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
              things. Thanks

              Russ wrote:

              Good Day All!

              Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

              I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
              missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
              current.

              What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
              it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
              severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

              I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
              (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
              awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
              part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

              I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
              simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
              about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
              only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
              followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
              can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
              believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
              us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
              teacher.

              So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
              leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
              and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
              thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
              And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
              also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

              What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
              faall awwaaaay.

              Russ
            • etznab18
              Page search for the word amended here. http://web.archive.org/web/20091130045925/http://darwingrosstruthfile.homestead.com/DGTFitem3.html If link doesn t work,
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 18, 2012
                Page search for the word amended here.

                http://web.archive.org/web/20091130045925/http://darwingrosstruthfile.homestead.com/DGTFitem3.html

                If link doesn't work, try this one.

                http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                >
                > I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read, members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
                >  
                > I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier time maintianing their status there.
                >  
                > Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members?  Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country members.
                > --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM
                >
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                > "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
                > admitting to her participation
                > in the scam!"
                >
                > According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
                > all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
                > possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.
                >
                > There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
                > don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
                > this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.
                >
                > I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
                > really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
                > she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
                > same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
                > struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
                > haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
                > TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.
                >
                > Etznab
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
                > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                >
                >  
                > Hello All,
                > Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
                > Gross and Twitchell
                > have taught us about
                > the religious con. Many
                > Eckists are still learning
                > and will never understand
                > the lesson. The longer
                > one remains under the
                > influence the more stuck
                > they become. These long-
                > time EKists are generally
                > identified via impressive
                > titles and higher initiations.
                > Other than that these three
                > were not true teachers and
                > certainly weren't masters...
                > except at deceit.
                >
                > I think that the best lie can
                > be told when the teller allows
                > himself to believe it as well.
                > Plus, of course, a little truth
                > mixed in also helps to make
                > it more believable.
                >
                > Twitchell (and Gail) were the
                > two originators of the lie and
                > were more aware of the distortions
                > than the Twitchells' followers.
                >
                > Next came Gross (and Gail
                > again). By being once removed
                > from the con it appears that
                > Darwin did, at first, believe
                > some of Twitchell's religious
                > myth. But, Gail, of course,
                > never believed any of Paul's
                > Mastership Stories. She did
                > like the attention, to a degree,
                > and the friendships she had
                > made. Mostly, she likes the
                > things that money could/can
                > buy.
                >
                > Next came Klemp. He despised
                > Darwin because of the womanizing,
                > flashy egocentric appearance,
                > and DG's big spending habits.
                > However, HK was also envious
                > of Darwin's power and title/status.
                > Klemp learned how to "play-the-
                > game" in order to be released
                > early from a mental institution
                > in 1970 and flew under the radar
                > to have Darwin trust him and
                > need him (depend upon him)
                > to write EK publications.
                >
                > Klemp showed Darwin what he
                > wanted to see... a meek and mild
                > admirer who was easily controlled.
                > This way Darwin could continue
                > to have fun and the admiration
                > of Eckists while Klemp would run
                > the business and write the books.
                >
                > Since Klemp is more removed
                > from the original truth of Eckankar
                > being a scam and a vocation for
                > the Twitchells' I do think that he's
                > deluded enough to believe the
                > hype... to a certain point. Plus,
                > Gail's not going to tell him the
                > truth anyway because she'd be
                > admitting to her participation
                > in the scam! BTW- Did you know
                > that Harold's daughter, Marion,
                > has the middle name of Gail.
                >
                > Klemp wants to believe the hype
                > because he's not only a narcissist,
                > and is vain, but he's also mentally
                > unstable.
                >
                > He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
                > principle. When people write to him
                > and say they saw him in their dreams
                > yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
                > it.... to a degree. The problem is
                > that Klemp doesn't remember any
                > of it! He's unaware of what's going
                > on (on the "INNER") and that's why
                > he needs Eckists to "write" to him
                > via their snail-mail testimonials.
                >
                > So, how does HK rationalize it?
                > Well, he's getting what he wants...
                > financial security, admiration,
                > and he's the boss!
                >
                > Eckists get what they want
                > and need. Someone to look
                > up to, worship, dream of &
                > journal, believe in and trust!
                > And, they have EK Centers,
                > Worship Services, HU Sings,
                > Harji potlucks, their books,
                > CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
                > seminars, invisible and
                > immortal ECK Masters and
                > those Higher Initiations!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                > Janice wrote:
                >
                > Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
                > enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
                > for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
                > a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
                > the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
                > to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
                > those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
                > if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
                > don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
                > or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
                > pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
                > not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
                > point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
                > eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
                > journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
                > what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
                > one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
                > this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
                > will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
                > another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
                > because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
                > certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
                > wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
                > will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
                > people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
                > because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
                > who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
                > Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
                > I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
                > can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
                > certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
                > things. Thanks
                >
                > Russ wrote:
                >
                > Good Day All!
                >
                > Take what is good and leave the rest behind.
                >
                > I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
                > missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
                > current.
                >
                > What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
                > it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
                > severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.
                >
                > I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
                > (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
                > awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
                > part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.
                >
                > I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
                > simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
                > about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
                > only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
                > followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
                > can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
                > believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
                > us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
                > teacher.
                >
                > So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
                > leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
                > and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
                > thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
                > And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
                > also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.
                >
                > What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
                > faall awwaaaay.
                >
                > Russ
                >
              • etznab18
                While on the link, also search for the word conspir - that will bring up all the words containing it and the places where they appear. What was that personal
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 18, 2012
                  While on the link, also search for the word "conspir" - that will bring up all the words containing it and the places where they appear.

                  What was that personal e-mail sent to Prometheus recently that got posted here? Didn't it presume something about a group of people, whatever, doing something.

                  I have to check if the word conspired was there.

                  OK. Just adding links and noting information for reference purposes.

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Page search for the word amended here.
                  >
                  > http://web.archive.org/web/20091130045925/http://darwingrosstruthfile.homestead.com/DGTFitem3.html
                  >
                  > If link doesn't work, try this one.
                  >
                  > http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read, members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
                  > >  
                  > > I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier time maintianing their status there.
                  > >  
                  > > Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members?  Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country members.
                  > > --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@ <etznab@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > From: etznab@ <etznab@>
                  > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                  > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >  
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
                  > > admitting to her participation
                  > > in the scam!"
                  > >
                  > > According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
                  > > all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
                  > > possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.
                  > >
                  > > There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
                  > > don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
                  > > this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.
                  > >
                  > > I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
                  > > really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
                  > > she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
                  > > same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
                  > > struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
                  > > haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
                  > > TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.
                  > >
                  > > Etznab
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                  > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
                  > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                  > >
                  > >  
                  > > Hello All,
                  > > Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
                  > > Gross and Twitchell
                  > > have taught us about
                  > > the religious con. Many
                  > > Eckists are still learning
                  > > and will never understand
                  > > the lesson. The longer
                  > > one remains under the
                  > > influence the more stuck
                  > > they become. These long-
                  > > time EKists are generally
                  > > identified via impressive
                  > > titles and higher initiations.
                  > > Other than that these three
                  > > were not true teachers and
                  > > certainly weren't masters...
                  > > except at deceit.
                  > >
                  > > I think that the best lie can
                  > > be told when the teller allows
                  > > himself to believe it as well.
                  > > Plus, of course, a little truth
                  > > mixed in also helps to make
                  > > it more believable.
                  > >
                  > > Twitchell (and Gail) were the
                  > > two originators of the lie and
                  > > were more aware of the distortions
                  > > than the Twitchells' followers.
                  > >
                  > > Next came Gross (and Gail
                  > > again). By being once removed
                  > > from the con it appears that
                  > > Darwin did, at first, believe
                  > > some of Twitchell's religious
                  > > myth. But, Gail, of course,
                  > > never believed any of Paul's
                  > > Mastership Stories. She did
                  > > like the attention, to a degree,
                  > > and the friendships she had
                  > > made. Mostly, she likes the
                  > > things that money could/can
                  > > buy.
                  > >
                  > > Next came Klemp. He despised
                  > > Darwin because of the womanizing,
                  > > flashy egocentric appearance,
                  > > and DG's big spending habits.
                  > > However, HK was also envious
                  > > of Darwin's power and title/status.
                  > > Klemp learned how to "play-the-
                  > > game" in order to be released
                  > > early from a mental institution
                  > > in 1970 and flew under the radar
                  > > to have Darwin trust him and
                  > > need him (depend upon him)
                  > > to write EK publications.
                  > >
                  > > Klemp showed Darwin what he
                  > > wanted to see... a meek and mild
                  > > admirer who was easily controlled.
                  > > This way Darwin could continue
                  > > to have fun and the admiration
                  > > of Eckists while Klemp would run
                  > > the business and write the books.
                  > >
                  > > Since Klemp is more removed
                  > > from the original truth of Eckankar
                  > > being a scam and a vocation for
                  > > the Twitchells' I do think that he's
                  > > deluded enough to believe the
                  > > hype... to a certain point. Plus,
                  > > Gail's not going to tell him the
                  > > truth anyway because she'd be
                  > > admitting to her participation
                  > > in the scam! BTW- Did you know
                  > > that Harold's daughter, Marion,
                  > > has the middle name of Gail.
                  > >
                  > > Klemp wants to believe the hype
                  > > because he's not only a narcissist,
                  > > and is vain, but he's also mentally
                  > > unstable.
                  > >
                  > > He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
                  > > principle. When people write to him
                  > > and say they saw him in their dreams
                  > > yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
                  > > it.... to a degree. The problem is
                  > > that Klemp doesn't remember any
                  > > of it! He's unaware of what's going
                  > > on (on the "INNER") and that's why
                  > > he needs Eckists to "write" to him
                  > > via their snail-mail testimonials.
                  > >
                  > > So, how does HK rationalize it?
                  > > Well, he's getting what he wants...
                  > > financial security, admiration,
                  > > and he's the boss!
                  > >
                  > > Eckists get what they want
                  > > and need. Someone to look
                  > > up to, worship, dream of &
                  > > journal, believe in and trust!
                  > > And, they have EK Centers,
                  > > Worship Services, HU Sings,
                  > > Harji potlucks, their books,
                  > > CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
                  > > seminars, invisible and
                  > > immortal ECK Masters and
                  > > those Higher Initiations!
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > > Janice wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
                  > > enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
                  > > for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
                  > > a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
                  > > the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
                  > > to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
                  > > those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
                  > > if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
                  > > don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
                  > > or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
                  > > pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
                  > > not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
                  > > point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
                  > > eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
                  > > journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
                  > > what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
                  > > one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
                  > > this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
                  > > will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
                  > > another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
                  > > because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
                  > > certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
                  > > wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
                  > > will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
                  > > people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
                  > > because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
                  > > who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
                  > > Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
                  > > I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
                  > > can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
                  > > certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
                  > > things. Thanks
                  > >
                  > > Russ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Good Day All!
                  > >
                  > > Take what is good and leave the rest behind.
                  > >
                  > > I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
                  > > missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
                  > > current.
                  > >
                  > > What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
                  > > it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
                  > > severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.
                  > >
                  > > I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
                  > > (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
                  > > awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
                  > > part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.
                  > >
                  > > I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
                  > > simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
                  > > about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
                  > > only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
                  > > followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
                  > > can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
                  > > believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
                  > > us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
                  > > teacher.
                  > >
                  > > So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
                  > > leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
                  > > and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
                  > > thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
                  > > And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
                  > > also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.
                  > >
                  > > What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
                  > > faall awwaaaay.
                  > >
                  > > Russ
                  > >
                  >
                • etznab18
                  One revision to add. I think it s message 6210 that I mentioned. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/6120 Page search for the word
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 18, 2012
                    One revision to add. I think it's message 6210 that I mentioned.

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/6120

                    Page search for the word group in that message and compare with what Darwin Gross said happened.

                    http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme

                    For me, personally, I'm just checking to see if any substance to this idea about people knowing things, but doing other.

                    In a nutshell, I sort of imagine Eckankar (the org. structure, etc.) was faced with imminent implosion in the 1980s. Unless power were consolidated under a single individual (or core group of people) there would have been endless bickering / fighting with no real fixes put in place, imo. Sort of like the American two-party system negating and canceling out eachother.

                    By 1987 when I joined Eckankar, the structure had already changed. Paul's books / files had been sold (by Gail to Eckankar, c/o Darwin Gross, whatever), some destroyed, some key people in the beginning of Eckankar had left the org., or were sent packing, I mean Darwin Gross was long gone, the books were being revised and edited further, all these things and more were done before I even became a member. And for the past five or so years I've been HAVING FUN [NOT] trying to find out so much of that past history on my own (helped by others - including ESA). And to my credit I've compiled user-friendly files in timeline format so I can target an area, a time period, and facilitate a deeper review by looking at what has already been given, written, etc.). Lots of people have helped with this, whether knowing or not, including ESA. Much of the trivia out in public domain I've compiled and done further research on (I don't know of many other people who have done so in the same fashion, or to the same extent. There is at least one other person I know about ...)

                    Having documents and book information, etc. helps when discussing things ... and so I don't have to come across as a heretic, or (so to speak) have my battleship blown out of the water by anybody and everybody who simply says: "Yeah right. That's just heresy. You have no proof." To the contrary. this stuff - numerous files - helps to keep me up to speed about the contradictions and issues, etc. Moreso, it helps to have a format where I can locate the information quickly and easily (like when discussing things here, or elsewhere). And when new information is found I can update the older material.

                    This idea about a covert group, or groups, doing things that led to a change in Eckankar "structure" (including the history and writings) is intriguing to me, to say the least. I've given up doing as much collecting of information as I used to about all this stuff, nevertheless, I'm starting to review once again that pivotal era of the 1980s just to see what more (anything new) can be learned.

                    Thanks to everyone for sharing, discussing, looking at this stuff again and again. For letting me (and others) belong to ESA. It helps to fill in the missing pieces, but not everybody wants (or likes) to talk about this stuff. maybe it's just not FUN enough :)

                    Etznab

                    P.S.

                    "He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the
                    present controls the past." - George Orwell, 1984

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > While on the link, also search for the word "conspir" - that will bring up all the words containing it and the places where they appear.
                    >
                    > What was that personal e-mail sent to Prometheus recently that got posted here? Didn't it presume something about a group of people, whatever, doing something.
                    >
                    > I have to check if the word conspired was there.
                    >
                    > OK. Just adding links and noting information for reference purposes.
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Page search for the word amended here.
                    > >
                    > > http://web.archive.org/web/20091130045925/http://darwingrosstruthfile.homestead.com/DGTFitem3.html
                    > >
                    > > If link doesn't work, try this one.
                    > >
                    > > http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme
                    > >
                    > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read, members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
                    > > >  
                    > > > I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier time maintianing their status there.
                    > > >  
                    > > > Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members?  Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country members.
                    > > > --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@ <etznab@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > From: etznab@ <etznab@>
                    > > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                    > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >  
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
                    > > > admitting to her participation
                    > > > in the scam!"
                    > > >
                    > > > According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
                    > > > all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
                    > > > possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.
                    > > >
                    > > > There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
                    > > > don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
                    > > > this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.
                    > > >
                    > > > I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
                    > > > really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
                    > > > she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
                    > > > same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
                    > > > struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
                    > > > haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
                    > > > TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.
                    > > >
                    > > > Etznab
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                    > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    > > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
                    > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                    > > >
                    > > >  
                    > > > Hello All,
                    > > > Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
                    > > > Gross and Twitchell
                    > > > have taught us about
                    > > > the religious con. Many
                    > > > Eckists are still learning
                    > > > and will never understand
                    > > > the lesson. The longer
                    > > > one remains under the
                    > > > influence the more stuck
                    > > > they become. These long-
                    > > > time EKists are generally
                    > > > identified via impressive
                    > > > titles and higher initiations.
                    > > > Other than that these three
                    > > > were not true teachers and
                    > > > certainly weren't masters...
                    > > > except at deceit.
                    > > >
                    > > > I think that the best lie can
                    > > > be told when the teller allows
                    > > > himself to believe it as well.
                    > > > Plus, of course, a little truth
                    > > > mixed in also helps to make
                    > > > it more believable.
                    > > >
                    > > > Twitchell (and Gail) were the
                    > > > two originators of the lie and
                    > > > were more aware of the distortions
                    > > > than the Twitchells' followers.
                    > > >
                    > > > Next came Gross (and Gail
                    > > > again). By being once removed
                    > > > from the con it appears that
                    > > > Darwin did, at first, believe
                    > > > some of Twitchell's religious
                    > > > myth. But, Gail, of course,
                    > > > never believed any of Paul's
                    > > > Mastership Stories. She did
                    > > > like the attention, to a degree,
                    > > > and the friendships she had
                    > > > made. Mostly, she likes the
                    > > > things that money could/can
                    > > > buy.
                    > > >
                    > > > Next came Klemp. He despised
                    > > > Darwin because of the womanizing,
                    > > > flashy egocentric appearance,
                    > > > and DG's big spending habits.
                    > > > However, HK was also envious
                    > > > of Darwin's power and title/status.
                    > > > Klemp learned how to "play-the-
                    > > > game" in order to be released
                    > > > early from a mental institution
                    > > > in 1970 and flew under the radar
                    > > > to have Darwin trust him and
                    > > > need him (depend upon him)
                    > > > to write EK publications.
                    > > >
                    > > > Klemp showed Darwin what he
                    > > > wanted to see... a meek and mild
                    > > > admirer who was easily controlled.
                    > > > This way Darwin could continue
                    > > > to have fun and the admiration
                    > > > of Eckists while Klemp would run
                    > > > the business and write the books.
                    > > >
                    > > > Since Klemp is more removed
                    > > > from the original truth of Eckankar
                    > > > being a scam and a vocation for
                    > > > the Twitchells' I do think that he's
                    > > > deluded enough to believe the
                    > > > hype... to a certain point. Plus,
                    > > > Gail's not going to tell him the
                    > > > truth anyway because she'd be
                    > > > admitting to her participation
                    > > > in the scam! BTW- Did you know
                    > > > that Harold's daughter, Marion,
                    > > > has the middle name of Gail.
                    > > >
                    > > > Klemp wants to believe the hype
                    > > > because he's not only a narcissist,
                    > > > and is vain, but he's also mentally
                    > > > unstable.
                    > > >
                    > > > He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
                    > > > principle. When people write to him
                    > > > and say they saw him in their dreams
                    > > > yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
                    > > > it.... to a degree. The problem is
                    > > > that Klemp doesn't remember any
                    > > > of it! He's unaware of what's going
                    > > > on (on the "INNER") and that's why
                    > > > he needs Eckists to "write" to him
                    > > > via their snail-mail testimonials.
                    > > >
                    > > > So, how does HK rationalize it?
                    > > > Well, he's getting what he wants...
                    > > > financial security, admiration,
                    > > > and he's the boss!
                    > > >
                    > > > Eckists get what they want
                    > > > and need. Someone to look
                    > > > up to, worship, dream of &
                    > > > journal, believe in and trust!
                    > > > And, they have EK Centers,
                    > > > Worship Services, HU Sings,
                    > > > Harji potlucks, their books,
                    > > > CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
                    > > > seminars, invisible and
                    > > > immortal ECK Masters and
                    > > > those Higher Initiations!
                    > > >
                    > > > Prometheus
                    > > >
                    > > > Janice wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
                    > > > enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
                    > > > for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
                    > > > a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
                    > > > the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
                    > > > to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
                    > > > those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
                    > > > if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
                    > > > don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
                    > > > or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
                    > > > pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
                    > > > not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
                    > > > point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
                    > > > eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
                    > > > journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
                    > > > what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
                    > > > one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
                    > > > this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
                    > > > will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
                    > > > another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
                    > > > because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
                    > > > certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
                    > > > wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
                    > > > will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
                    > > > people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
                    > > > because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
                    > > > who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
                    > > > Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
                    > > > I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
                    > > > can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
                    > > > certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
                    > > > things. Thanks
                    > > >
                    > > > Russ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Good Day All!
                    > > >
                    > > > Take what is good and leave the rest behind.
                    > > >
                    > > > I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
                    > > > missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
                    > > > current.
                    > > >
                    > > > What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
                    > > > it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
                    > > > severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.
                    > > >
                    > > > I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
                    > > > (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
                    > > > awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
                    > > > part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.
                    > > >
                    > > > I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
                    > > > simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
                    > > > about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
                    > > > only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
                    > > > followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
                    > > > can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
                    > > > believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
                    > > > us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
                    > > > teacher.
                    > > >
                    > > > So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
                    > > > leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
                    > > > and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
                    > > > thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
                    > > > And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
                    > > > also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.
                    > > >
                    > > > What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
                    > > > faall awwaaaay.
                    > > >
                    > > > Russ
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Etznab and All, Klemp had the corporate by-laws for Eckankar rewritten after Darwin was booted. Therefore, the President of Eckankar was no longer the
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 19, 2012
                      Hello Etznab and All,
                      Klemp had the corporate
                      by-laws for Eckankar
                      rewritten after Darwin
                      was booted. Therefore,
                      the President of Eckankar
                      was no longer the head
                      of the org and of the
                      church.

                      Darwin screwed up by
                      not stating on stage or
                      in print that he, as the
                      Mahanta, was still the
                      head of Eckankar and
                      that Harold, as LEM, was
                      overseeing other areas.
                      Upon acceptance Harold
                      would not have had the
                      legal ground to present
                      a challenge. In Darwin's
                      day the ECK Board, 8th
                      initiates, still had a real
                      voice and vote. The by-laws
                      were written as such.
                      And, IMO, the Board (8ths)
                      would never have sided
                      with a new 12th initiate
                      LEM over the 14th initiate
                      Mahanta.

                      BTW- When Twitchell
                      first defined the LEM
                      he made no mention
                      of the Mahanta. It wasn't
                      until 1969 that he created
                      the Mahanta title and
                      rewrites began. Just
                      look at the definition
                      for LEM in, even, HK's
                      first Lexicon. There's
                      no mention of the
                      "Mahanta" in the body
                      of the definition. At
                      the bottom it states:
                      (see Mahanta).

                      And, Klemp did his own
                      revisions by stating that
                      even though the LEM is
                      synonymous with being
                      the Mahanta... that the
                      LEM is "in training" until
                      he can become a "Full"
                      14th Mahanta. Why did
                      Klemp feel this additional
                      clarification as necessary?
                      It's because Darwin was
                      the LEM/Mahanta! Therefore
                      Klemp had to make it seem
                      that he was either on the
                      same Initiation Level or
                      Higher than Gross. After
                      all, how could a new 12th
                      LEM have the Hierarchal
                      authority to unseat a "Full"
                      14th (or higher) Mahanta
                      otherwise? He wouldn't
                      and there lies the rub!
                      Klemp's ekplanation
                      is called "tying up loose
                      ends."


                      Anyway, HK now has
                      "sole" authority to hire
                      and fire and to make
                      all decisions. Peter Skelsky,
                      the President of Eckankar,
                      works for Klemp and
                      runs the business side
                      of Eckankar.

                      The ECK Board members,
                      also, sit at Klemp's pleasure
                      and serve as a sounding
                      board for him. He merely
                      considers their opinions
                      but is under no obligation
                      to follow anything they
                      might suggest or vote
                      upon. They simply keep
                      him up-to-date and
                      informed on various
                      issues and assignments.

                      As Above, So Below.

                      The chartered Satsang
                      Societies are set up
                      in the same manner
                      as the ECK Board at
                      the ESC and follow
                      hierarchal procedure.
                      Generally, however,
                      the President of the
                      Satsang Society doesn't
                      have nearly as much
                      authority or oversight
                      duties as does their
                      counterpart, at the ESC,
                      Peter Skelsky. Then,
                      again, some RESAs
                      aren't very "hands on"
                      and tend to designate
                      more responsibility to
                      others.

                      The RESAs, basically,
                      have been given sole
                      church authority over
                      those Eckists within
                      their regional areas.
                      They hire, fire, promote
                      and oversee the local
                      operations and mission
                      of the Satsang Society
                      based upon field-tested
                      Guidelines supplied to
                      them by the ESC. Of course,
                      ECK-ankar is a hierarchy
                      and even RESAs answer
                      to higher ups at the ESC
                      assigned (by HK or his
                      emissaries) to oversee
                      them. Harold is the "sole"
                      piece of crap in charge
                      of this minor New Age
                      religious con and cult.

                      Prometheus


                      etznab@... wrote:

                      Try researching the definition for corporation sole.

                      A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
                      incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

                      My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
                      Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
                      this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
                      is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
                      can in any way trump the single individual in charge.

                      Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
                      that first. I think they can, but are not sure.

                      Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
                      One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
                      with legal voting rights.

                      Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
                      the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.
                    • etznab@aol.com
                      And, IMO, the Board (8ths) would never have sided with a new 12th initiate LEM over the 14th initiate Mahanta. I remember reading something about four 8th
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 19, 2012
                        "And, IMO, the Board (8ths) would never have sided with a new 12th
                        initiate LEM over the 14th initiate Mahanta."

                        I remember reading something about four 8th initiate grandmothers, or
                        something. Let me see.

                        (7) Four "eighth initiates" demanded Harold takeover the Eckankar
                        Corporation in a letter to certain Trustees (concealed from myself,
                        Alan Nichols and Bob Brant). The letter was signed by four women, most
                        or all of whom were grandmothers. It was used by the conspirators to
                        cover-up the takeover power grab.

                        http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme

                        Just thought that was relevant here.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sun, Feb 19, 2012 1:19 pm
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

                         
                        Hello Etznab and All,
                        Klemp had the corporate
                        by-laws for Eckankar
                        rewritten after Darwin
                        was booted. Therefore,
                        the President of Eckankar
                        was no longer the head
                        of the org and of the
                        church.

                        Darwin screwed up by
                        not stating on stage or
                        in print that he, as the
                        Mahanta, was still the
                        head of Eckankar and
                        that Harold, as LEM, was
                        overseeing other areas.
                        Upon acceptance Harold
                        would not have had the
                        legal ground to present
                        a challenge. In Darwin's
                        day the ECK Board, 8th
                        initiates, still had a real
                        voice and vote. The by-laws
                        were written as such.
                        And, IMO, the Board (8ths)
                        would never have sided
                        with a new 12th initiate
                        LEM over the 14th initiate
                        Mahanta.

                        BTW- When Twitchell
                        first defined the LEM
                        he made no mention
                        of the Mahanta. It wasn't
                        until 1969 that the
                        rewrites began. Just
                        look at the definition
                        for LEM in, even, HK's
                        first Lexicon.

                        At the bottom it states:
                        (see Mahanta). And, Klemp
                        did his own revisions by
                        stating that even though
                        it states that the LEM is
                        synonymous with being
                        the Mahanta... that the
                        LEM is "in training" until
                        he can be a "Full" 14th
                        Mahanta.

                        Anyway, HK now has
                        "sole" authority to hire
                        and fire and to make
                        all decisions. Peter Skelsky,
                        the President of Eckankar,
                        works for Klemp and
                        runs the business side
                        of Eckankar.

                        The ECK Board members,
                        also, sit at Klemp's pleasure
                        and serve as a sounding
                        board for him. He merely
                        considers their opinions
                        but is under no obligation
                        to follow anything they
                        might suggest or vote
                        upon. They simply keep
                        him up-to-date and
                        informed on various
                        issues and assignments.

                        As Above, So Below.

                        The chartered Satsang
                        Societies are set up
                        in the same manner
                        as the ECK Board at
                        the ESC and follow
                        hierarchal procedure.
                        Generally, however,
                        the President of the
                        Satsang Society doesn't
                        have nearly as much
                        authority or oversight
                        duties as does Peter
                        Skelsky. Then, again,
                        some RESAs aren't very
                        "hands on" and tend
                        to designate more
                        responsibility to others.

                        The RESAs, basically,
                        have been given sole
                        church authority over
                        those Eckists within
                        their regional areas.
                        They hire, fire, promote
                        and oversee the local
                        operations and mission
                        of the Satsang Society
                        based upon field-tested
                        Guidelines supplied to
                        them by the ESC. Of course,
                        ECK-ankar is a hierarchy
                        and even RESAs answer
                        to higher ups at the ESC
                        assigned (by HK or his
                        emissaries) to oversee
                        them. Harold is the "sole"
                        piece of crap in charge
                        of this minor New Age
                        religious con and cult.

                        Prometheus


                        etznab@... wrote:

                        Try researching the definition for corporation sole.

                        A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
                        incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

                        My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
                        Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
                        this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
                        is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
                        can in any way trump the single individual in charge.

                        Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
                        that first. I think they can, but are not sure.

                        Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
                        One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
                        with legal voting rights.

                        Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
                        the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.
                      • prometheus_973
                        Hello Etznab and All, Yes, after Klemp took over he devised a plan to demonize Darwin in order to appear as if he was more spiritual, innocent and pure. HK
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 19, 2012
                          Hello Etznab and All,
                          Yes, after Klemp took
                          over he devised a plan
                          to demonize Darwin
                          in order to appear as
                          if he was more spiritual,
                          innocent and pure.

                          HK fooled them all!

                          The truth is Klemp was
                          never good at sharing
                          nor playing and working
                          well with others.

                          As I said, DG screwed
                          up by handing the EK
                          car keys over to HK.

                          Plus, let's not forget that
                          Darwin had divorced Gail
                          and that she had a lot of
                          ECK friends and admirers.
                          Many were 7ths and 8ths
                          and they felt sorry for her
                          because they felt DG had
                          dishonored her and caste
                          her aside. They related to
                          this. Of course, these Eckists
                          didn't know the real Gail
                          and that she was a master
                          manipulator who inspired
                          and assisted Paul with the
                          con. Behind their backs,
                          she laughed at them all
                          for believing in Paul's lies
                          and trickery. Of course,
                          she also laughed all the
                          way to the bank after that
                          buyout of $500K and is
                          a millionaire even today!

                          Prometheus


                          Etznab wrote:

                          "And, IMO, the Board (8ths) would never have sided with a new 12th
                          initiate LEM over the 14th initiate Mahanta."

                          I remember reading something about four 8th initiate grandmothers, or
                          something. Let me see.

                          (7) Four "eighth initiates" demanded Harold takeover the Eckankar
                          Corporation in a letter to certain Trustees (concealed from myself,
                          Alan Nichols and Bob Brant). The letter was signed by four women, most
                          or all of whom were grandmothers. It was used by the conspirators to
                          cover-up the takeover power grab.

                          http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme

                          Just thought that was relevant here.


                          prometheus wrote:

                          Hello Etznab and All,
                          Klemp had the corporate
                          by-laws for Eckankar
                          rewritten after Darwin
                          was booted. Therefore,
                          the President of Eckankar
                          was no longer the head
                          of the org and of the
                          church.

                          Darwin screwed up by
                          not stating on stage or
                          in print that he, as the
                          Mahanta, was still the
                          head of Eckankar and
                          that Harold, as LEM, was
                          overseeing other areas.
                          Upon acceptance Harold
                          would not have had the
                          legal ground to present
                          a challenge. In Darwin's
                          day the ECK Board, 8th
                          initiates, still had a real
                          voice and vote. The by-laws
                          were written as such.
                          And, IMO, the Board (8ths)
                          would never have sided
                          with a new 12th initiate
                          LEM over the 14th initiate
                          Mahanta.

                          BTW- When Twitchell
                          first defined the LEM
                          he made no mention
                          of the Mahanta. It wasn't
                          until 1969 that the
                          rewrites began. Just
                          look at the definition
                          for LEM in, even, HK's
                          first Lexicon.

                          At the bottom it states:
                          (see Mahanta). And, Klemp
                          did his own revisions by
                          stating that even though
                          it states that the LEM is
                          synonymous with being
                          the Mahanta... that the
                          LEM is "in training" until
                          he can be a "Full" 14th
                          Mahanta.

                          Anyway, HK now has
                          "sole" authority to hire
                          and fire and to make
                          all decisions. Peter Skelsky,
                          the President of Eckankar,
                          works for Klemp and
                          runs the business side
                          of Eckankar.

                          The ECK Board members,
                          also, sit at Klemp's pleasure
                          and serve as a sounding
                          board for him. He merely
                          considers their opinions
                          but is under no obligation
                          to follow anything they
                          might suggest or vote
                          upon. They simply keep
                          him up-to-date and
                          informed on various
                          issues and assignments.

                          As Above, So Below.

                          The chartered Satsang
                          Societies are set up
                          in the same manner
                          as the ECK Board at
                          the ESC and follow
                          hierarchal procedure.
                          Generally, however,
                          the President of the
                          Satsang Society doesn't
                          have nearly as much
                          authority or oversight
                          duties as does Peter
                          Skelsky. Then, again,
                          some RESAs aren't very
                          "hands on" and tend
                          to designate more
                          responsibility to others.

                          The RESAs, basically,
                          have been given sole
                          church authority over
                          those Eckists within
                          their regional areas.
                          They hire, fire, promote
                          and oversee the local
                          operations and mission
                          of the Satsang Society
                          based upon field-tested
                          Guidelines supplied to
                          them by the ESC. Of course,
                          ECK-ankar is a hierarchy
                          and even RESAs answer
                          to higher ups at the ESC
                          assigned (by HK or his
                          emissaries) to oversee
                          them. Harold is the "sole"
                          piece of crap in charge
                          of this minor New Age
                          religious con and cult.

                          Prometheus


                          etznab@... wrote:

                          Try researching the definition for corporation sole.

                          A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
                          incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

                          My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
                          Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
                          this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
                          is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
                          can in any way trump the single individual in charge.

                          Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
                          that first. I think they can, but are not sure.

                          Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
                          One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
                          with legal voting rights.

                          Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
                          the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.
                        • Tyson
                          Harold Klemp is a big poser. Tell me something I dont know.
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 28, 2012
                            Harold Klemp is a big poser. Tell me something I dont know.
                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Etznab and All,
                            > Yes, after Klemp took
                            > over he devised a plan
                            > to demonize Darwin
                            > in order to appear as
                            > if he was more spiritual,
                            > innocent and pure.
                            >
                            > HK fooled them all!
                            >
                            > The truth is Klemp was
                            > never good at sharing
                            > nor playing and working
                            > well with others.
                            >
                            > As I said, DG screwed
                            > up by handing the EK
                            > car keys over to HK.
                            >
                            > Plus, let's not forget that
                            > Darwin had divorced Gail
                            > and that she had a lot of
                            > ECK friends and admirers.
                            > Many were 7ths and 8ths
                            > and they felt sorry for her
                            > because they felt DG had
                            > dishonored her and caste
                            > her aside. They related to
                            > this. Of course, these Eckists
                            > didn't know the real Gail
                            > and that she was a master
                            > manipulator who inspired
                            > and assisted Paul with the
                            > con. Behind their backs,
                            > she laughed at them all
                            > for believing in Paul's lies
                            > and trickery. Of course,
                            > she also laughed all the
                            > way to the bank after that
                            > buyout of $500K and is
                            > a millionaire even today!
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            > Etznab wrote:
                            >
                            > "And, IMO, the Board (8ths) would never have sided with a new 12th
                            > initiate LEM over the 14th initiate Mahanta."
                            >
                            > I remember reading something about four 8th initiate grandmothers, or
                            > something. Let me see.
                            >
                            > (7) Four "eighth initiates" demanded Harold takeover the Eckankar
                            > Corporation in a letter to certain Trustees (concealed from myself,
                            > Alan Nichols and Bob Brant). The letter was signed by four women, most
                            > or all of whom were grandmothers. It was used by the conspirators to
                            > cover-up the takeover power grab.
                            >
                            > http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme
                            >
                            > Just thought that was relevant here.
                            >
                            >
                            > prometheus wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Etznab and All,
                            > Klemp had the corporate
                            > by-laws for Eckankar
                            > rewritten after Darwin
                            > was booted. Therefore,
                            > the President of Eckankar
                            > was no longer the head
                            > of the org and of the
                            > church.
                            >
                            > Darwin screwed up by
                            > not stating on stage or
                            > in print that he, as the
                            > Mahanta, was still the
                            > head of Eckankar and
                            > that Harold, as LEM, was
                            > overseeing other areas.
                            > Upon acceptance Harold
                            > would not have had the
                            > legal ground to present
                            > a challenge. In Darwin's
                            > day the ECK Board, 8th
                            > initiates, still had a real
                            > voice and vote. The by-laws
                            > were written as such.
                            > And, IMO, the Board (8ths)
                            > would never have sided
                            > with a new 12th initiate
                            > LEM over the 14th initiate
                            > Mahanta.
                            >
                            > BTW- When Twitchell
                            > first defined the LEM
                            > he made no mention
                            > of the Mahanta. It wasn't
                            > until 1969 that the
                            > rewrites began. Just
                            > look at the definition
                            > for LEM in, even, HK's
                            > first Lexicon.
                            >
                            > At the bottom it states:
                            > (see Mahanta). And, Klemp
                            > did his own revisions by
                            > stating that even though
                            > it states that the LEM is
                            > synonymous with being
                            > the Mahanta... that the
                            > LEM is "in training" until
                            > he can be a "Full" 14th
                            > Mahanta.
                            >
                            > Anyway, HK now has
                            > "sole" authority to hire
                            > and fire and to make
                            > all decisions. Peter Skelsky,
                            > the President of Eckankar,
                            > works for Klemp and
                            > runs the business side
                            > of Eckankar.
                            >
                            > The ECK Board members,
                            > also, sit at Klemp's pleasure
                            > and serve as a sounding
                            > board for him. He merely
                            > considers their opinions
                            > but is under no obligation
                            > to follow anything they
                            > might suggest or vote
                            > upon. They simply keep
                            > him up-to-date and
                            > informed on various
                            > issues and assignments.
                            >
                            > As Above, So Below.
                            >
                            > The chartered Satsang
                            > Societies are set up
                            > in the same manner
                            > as the ECK Board at
                            > the ESC and follow
                            > hierarchal procedure.
                            > Generally, however,
                            > the President of the
                            > Satsang Society doesn't
                            > have nearly as much
                            > authority or oversight
                            > duties as does Peter
                            > Skelsky. Then, again,
                            > some RESAs aren't very
                            > "hands on" and tend
                            > to designate more
                            > responsibility to others.
                            >
                            > The RESAs, basically,
                            > have been given sole
                            > church authority over
                            > those Eckists within
                            > their regional areas.
                            > They hire, fire, promote
                            > and oversee the local
                            > operations and mission
                            > of the Satsang Society
                            > based upon field-tested
                            > Guidelines supplied to
                            > them by the ESC. Of course,
                            > ECK-ankar is a hierarchy
                            > and even RESAs answer
                            > to higher ups at the ESC
                            > assigned (by HK or his
                            > emissaries) to oversee
                            > them. Harold is the "sole"
                            > piece of crap in charge
                            > of this minor New Age
                            > religious con and cult.
                            >
                            > Prometheus
                            >
                            >
                            > etznab@ wrote:
                            >
                            > Try researching the definition for corporation sole.
                            >
                            > A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
                            > incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]
                            >
                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole
                            >
                            > My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
                            > Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
                            > this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
                            > is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
                            > can in any way trump the single individual in charge.
                            >
                            > Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
                            > that first. I think they can, but are not sure.
                            >
                            > Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
                            > One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
                            > with legal voting rights.
                            >
                            > Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
                            > the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.
                            >
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