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Re: Where I Stand

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, Interesting. Yes, Klemp, Gross and Twitchell have taught us about the religious con. Many Eckists are still learning and will never understand the
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
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      Hello All,
      Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
      Gross and Twitchell
      have taught us about
      the religious con. Many
      Eckists are still learning
      and will never understand
      the lesson. The longer
      one remains under the
      influence the more stuck
      they become. These long-
      time EKists are generally
      identified via impressive
      titles and higher initiations.
      Other than that these three
      were not true teachers and
      certainly weren't masters...
      except at deceit.

      I think that the best lie can
      be told when the teller allows
      himself to believe it as well.
      Plus, of course, a little truth
      mixed in also helps to make
      it more believable.

      Twitchell (and Gail) were the
      two originators of the lie and
      were more aware of the distortions
      than the Twitchells' followers.

      Next came Gross (and Gail
      again). By being once removed
      from the con it appears that
      Darwin did, at first, believe
      some of Twitchell's religious
      myth. But, Gail, of course,
      never believed any of Paul's
      Mastership Stories. She did
      like the attention, to a degree,
      and the friendships she had
      made. Mostly, she likes the
      things that money could/can
      buy.

      Next came Klemp. He despised
      Darwin because of the womanizing,
      flashy egocentric appearance,
      and DG's big spending habits.
      However, HK was also envious
      of Darwin's power and title/status.
      Klemp learned how to "play-the-
      game" in order to be released
      early from a mental institution
      in 1970 and flew under the radar
      to have Darwin trust him and
      need him (depend upon him)
      to write EK publications.

      Klemp showed Darwin what he
      wanted to see... a meek and mild
      admirer who was easily controlled.
      This way Darwin could continue
      to have fun and the admiration
      of Eckists while Klemp would run
      the business and write the books.

      Since Klemp is more removed
      from the original truth of Eckankar
      being a scam and a vocation for
      the Twitchells' I do think that he's
      deluded enough to believe the
      hype... to a certain point. Plus,
      Gail's not going to tell him the
      truth anyway because she'd be
      admitting to her participation
      in the scam! BTW- Did you know
      that Harold's daughter, Marion,
      has the middle name of Gail.

      Klemp wants to believe the hype
      because he's not only a narcissist,
      and is vain, but he's also mentally
      unstable.

      He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
      principle. When people write to him
      and say they saw him in their dreams
      yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
      it.... to a degree. The problem is
      that Klemp doesn't remember any
      of it! He's unaware of what's going
      on (on the "INNER") and that's why
      he needs Eckists to "write" to him
      via their snail-mail testimonials.

      So, how does HK rationalize it?
      Well, he's getting what he wants...
      financial security, admiration,
      and he's the boss!

      Eckists get what they want
      and need. Someone to look
      up to, worship, dream of &
      journal, believe in and trust!
      And, they have EK Centers,
      Worship Services, HU Sings,
      Harji potlucks, their books,
      CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
      seminars, invisible and
      immortal ECK Masters and
      those Higher Initiations!

      Prometheus




      Janice wrote:

      Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies. Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these things. Thanks

      Russ wrote:

      Good Day All!

      Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

      I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound current.

      What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

      I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

      I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best teacher.

      So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho. And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

      What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs faall awwaaaay.

      Russ
    • etznab@aol.com
      I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and pieces that are useful to me.I don t know if this is the best way or not to seek enlightenment but it is the only
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
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        "I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and pieces that are useful to
        me.I don't know if this is the best way or not to seek enlightenment
        but it is the only way I can go at this point."

        What I have found about reading is that readings don't always divulge
        their source(s), author(s) and history(s). In many cases (I have found,
        especially with religions and ancient history) most, if not all of
        those things appear to get embellished, and / or turn into pseudo
        man-made history and religion. If a "compiler" knows the source(s) from
        which they compile(d) and attribute(s) a different source, author,
        history ...? I naturally ask: What does it mean? Does it even convey
        natural events and history?

        The only thing I know to help is exploring and checking the "source(s)"
        of what I read. This is not something I did very much in the beginning
        with Eckankar writings. However, I think it probably one of the sure
        ways to arrive at a more comprehensive truth. Even if it means death of
        an ideal.

        The harder part, in my experience, is finding another more ideal ideal.
        One closer to the actual truth about God, Soul and Spiritual matters
        (Including what is heaven and hell really?). IMO, this - the final
        interpretation - does not have to hinge on the opinions, beliefs,
        writings of others alone. It can hinge on what I alone KNOW to be true.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 2:13 pm
        Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand

         
        Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience.  I too
        enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
        for a while after leaving until I found other words to use.  There was
        a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
        the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others.  I would prefer
        to read the originals.  The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
        those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
        if it is beneficial.  The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting.  I
        don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
        or religious group again.  I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
        pieces that are useful to me.  I don't know if this is the best way or
        not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
        point.  I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
        eckankar and since leaving.  It makes me feel less alone in my own
        journey.  It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
        what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development.  The
        one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies.  To me
        this is inexcusable.  I hope through hearing from people like you I
        will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
        another.  I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
        because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
        certain amount of my attention.  I don't think about it continually but
        wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste.  There
        will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
        people for self glorification.  Part of me just can't seem to let go
        because I  see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
        who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies. 
        Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
        I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others.  These
        can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right.  I could
        certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
        things.  Thanks

        --- On Fri, 2/17/12, russrodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

        From: russrodnick <russrodnick@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 3:33 PM

          Good Day All!

        Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

        I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
        missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
        current.

        What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
        it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
        severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

        I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
        (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
        awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
        part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

        I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
        simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
        about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
        only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
        followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
        can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
        believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
        us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
        teacher.

        So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
        leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
        and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
        thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
        And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
        also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

        What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
        faall awwaaaay.

        Russ
      • etznab@aol.com
        Plus, Gail s not going to tell him the truth anyway because she d be admitting to her participation in the scam! According to the contract of sale , I
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
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          "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
          admitting to her participation
          in the scam!"

          According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
          all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
          possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.

          There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
          don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
          this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.

          I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
          really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
          she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
          same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
          struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
          haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
          TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.

          Etznab

          -----Original Message-----
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

           
          Hello All,
          Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
          Gross and Twitchell
          have taught us about
          the religious con. Many
          Eckists are still learning
          and will never understand
          the lesson. The longer
          one remains under the
          influence the more stuck
          they become. These long-
          time EKists are generally
          identified via impressive
          titles and higher initiations.
          Other than that these three
          were not true teachers and
          certainly weren't masters...
          except at deceit.

          I think that the best lie can
          be told when the teller allows
          himself to believe it as well.
          Plus, of course, a little truth
          mixed in also helps to make
          it more believable.

          Twitchell (and Gail) were the
          two originators of the lie and
          were more aware of the distortions
          than the Twitchells' followers.

          Next came Gross (and Gail
          again). By being once removed
          from the con it appears that
          Darwin did, at first, believe
          some of Twitchell's religious
          myth. But, Gail, of course,
          never believed any of Paul's
          Mastership Stories. She did
          like the attention, to a degree,
          and the friendships she had
          made. Mostly, she likes the
          things that money could/can
          buy.

          Next came Klemp. He despised
          Darwin because of the womanizing,
          flashy egocentric appearance,
          and DG's big spending habits.
          However, HK was also envious
          of Darwin's power and title/status.
          Klemp learned how to "play-the-
          game" in order to be released
          early from a mental institution
          in 1970 and flew under the radar
          to have Darwin trust him and
          need him (depend upon him)
          to write EK publications.

          Klemp showed Darwin what he
          wanted to see... a meek and mild
          admirer who was easily controlled.
          This way Darwin could continue
          to have fun and the admiration
          of Eckists while Klemp would run
          the business and write the books.

          Since Klemp is more removed
          from the original truth of Eckankar
          being a scam and a vocation for
          the Twitchells' I do think that he's
          deluded enough to believe the
          hype... to a certain point. Plus,
          Gail's not going to tell him the
          truth anyway because she'd be
          admitting to her participation
          in the scam! BTW- Did you know
          that Harold's daughter, Marion,
          has the middle name of Gail.

          Klemp wants to believe the hype
          because he's not only a narcissist,
          and is vain, but he's also mentally
          unstable.

          He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
          principle. When people write to him
          and say they saw him in their dreams
          yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
          it.... to a degree. The problem is
          that Klemp doesn't remember any
          of it! He's unaware of what's going
          on (on the "INNER") and that's why
          he needs Eckists to "write" to him
          via their snail-mail testimonials.

          So, how does HK rationalize it?
          Well, he's getting what he wants...
          financial security, admiration,
          and he's the boss!

          Eckists get what they want
          and need. Someone to look
          up to, worship, dream of &
          journal, believe in and trust!
          And, they have EK Centers,
          Worship Services, HU Sings,
          Harji potlucks, their books,
          CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
          seminars, invisible and
          immortal ECK Masters and
          those Higher Initiations!

          Prometheus



          Janice wrote:

          Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
          enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
          for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
          a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
          the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
          to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
          those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
          if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
          don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
          or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
          pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
          not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
          point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
          eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
          journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
          what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
          one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
          this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
          will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
          another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
          because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
          certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
          wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
          will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
          people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
          because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
          who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
          Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
          I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
          can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
          certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
          things. Thanks

          Russ wrote:

          Good Day All!

          Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

          I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
          missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
          current.

          What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
          it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
          severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

          I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
          (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
          awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
          part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

          I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
          simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
          about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
          only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
          followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
          can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
          believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
          us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
          teacher.

          So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
          leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
          and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
          thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
          And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
          also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

          What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
          faall awwaaaay.

          Russ
        • Janice Pfeiffer
          Thank you also etznab.  You said it much better than I ever could.  There is a lot of widom in your words. ... From: etznab@aol.com Subject:
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
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            Thank you also etznab.  You said it much better than I ever could.  There is a lot of widom in your words.

            --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

            From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:19 PM

             
            "I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and pieces that are useful to
            me.I don't know if this is the best way or not to seek enlightenment
            but it is the only way I can go at this point."

            What I have found about reading is that readings don't always divulge
            their source(s), author(s) and history(s). In many cases (I have found,
            especially with religions and ancient history) most, if not all of
            those things appear to get embellished, and / or turn into pseudo
            man-made history and religion. If a "compiler" knows the source(s) from
            which they compile(d) and attribute(s) a different source, author,
            history ...? I naturally ask: What does it mean? Does it even convey
            natural events and history?

            The only thing I know to help is exploring and checking the "source(s)"
            of what I read. This is not something I did very much in the beginning
            with Eckankar writings. However, I think it probably one of the sure
            ways to arrive at a more comprehensive truth. Even if it means death of
            an ideal.

            The harder part, in my experience, is finding another more ideal ideal.
            One closer to the actual truth about God, Soul and Spiritual matters
            (Including what is heaven and hell really?). IMO, this - the final
            interpretation - does not have to hinge on the opinions, beliefs,
            writings of others alone. It can hinge on what I alone KNOW to be true.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 2:13 pm
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand

             
            Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience.  I too
            enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
            for a while after leaving until I found other words to use.  There was
            a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
            the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others.  I would prefer
            to read the originals.  The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
            those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
            if it is beneficial.  The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting.  I
            don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
            or religious group again.  I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
            pieces that are useful to me.  I don't know if this is the best way or
            not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
            point.  I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
            eckankar and since leaving.  It makes me feel less alone in my own
            journey.  It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
            what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development.  The
            one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies.  To me
            this is inexcusable.  I hope through hearing from people like you I
            will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
            another.  I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
            because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
            certain amount of my attention.  I don't think about it continually but
            wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste.  There
            will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
            people for self glorification.  Part of me just can't seem to let go
            because I  see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
            who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies. 
            Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
            I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others.  These
            can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right.  I could
            certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
            things.  Thanks

            --- On Fri, 2/17/12, russrodnick &lt;russrodnick@...&gt; wrote:

            From: russrodnick &lt;russrodnick@...&gt;
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 3:33 PM

              Good Day All!

            Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

            I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
            missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
            current.

            What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
            it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
            severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

            I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
            (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
            awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
            part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

            I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
            simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
            about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
            only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
            followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
            can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
            believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
            us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
            teacher.

            So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
            leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
            and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
            thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
            And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
            also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

            What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
            faall awwaaaay.

            Russ

          • Janice Pfeiffer
            I was reading Minnesota s requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
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              I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read, members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
               
              I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier time maintianing their status there.
               
              Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members?  Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country members.
              --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

              From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
              Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM

               
              "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
              admitting to her participation
              in the scam!"

              According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
              all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
              possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.

              There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
              don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
              this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.

              I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
              really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
              she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
              same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
              struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
              haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
              TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.

              Etznab

              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

               
              Hello All,
              Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
              Gross and Twitchell
              have taught us about
              the religious con. Many
              Eckists are still learning
              and will never understand
              the lesson. The longer
              one remains under the
              influence the more stuck
              they become. These long-
              time EKists are generally
              identified via impressive
              titles and higher initiations.
              Other than that these three
              were not true teachers and
              certainly weren't masters...
              except at deceit.

              I think that the best lie can
              be told when the teller allows
              himself to believe it as well.
              Plus, of course, a little truth
              mixed in also helps to make
              it more believable.

              Twitchell (and Gail) were the
              two originators of the lie and
              were more aware of the distortions
              than the Twitchells' followers.

              Next came Gross (and Gail
              again). By being once removed
              from the con it appears that
              Darwin did, at first, believe
              some of Twitchell's religious
              myth. But, Gail, of course,
              never believed any of Paul's
              Mastership Stories. She did
              like the attention, to a degree,
              and the friendships she had
              made. Mostly, she likes the
              things that money could/can
              buy.

              Next came Klemp. He despised
              Darwin because of the womanizing,
              flashy egocentric appearance,
              and DG's big spending habits.
              However, HK was also envious
              of Darwin's power and title/status.
              Klemp learned how to "play-the-
              game" in order to be released
              early from a mental institution
              in 1970 and flew under the radar
              to have Darwin trust him and
              need him (depend upon him)
              to write EK publications.

              Klemp showed Darwin what he
              wanted to see... a meek and mild
              admirer who was easily controlled.
              This way Darwin could continue
              to have fun and the admiration
              of Eckists while Klemp would run
              the business and write the books.

              Since Klemp is more removed
              from the original truth of Eckankar
              being a scam and a vocation for
              the Twitchells' I do think that he's
              deluded enough to believe the
              hype... to a certain point. Plus,
              Gail's not going to tell him the
              truth anyway because she'd be
              admitting to her participation
              in the scam! BTW- Did you know
              that Harold's daughter, Marion,
              has the middle name of Gail.

              Klemp wants to believe the hype
              because he's not only a narcissist,
              and is vain, but he's also mentally
              unstable.

              He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
              principle. When people write to him
              and say they saw him in their dreams
              yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
              it.... to a degree. The problem is
              that Klemp doesn't remember any
              of it! He's unaware of what's going
              on (on the "INNER") and that's why
              he needs Eckists to "write" to him
              via their snail-mail testimonials.

              So, how does HK rationalize it?
              Well, he's getting what he wants...
              financial security, admiration,
              and he's the boss!

              Eckists get what they want
              and need. Someone to look
              up to, worship, dream of &
              journal, believe in and trust!
              And, they have EK Centers,
              Worship Services, HU Sings,
              Harji potlucks, their books,
              CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
              seminars, invisible and
              immortal ECK Masters and
              those Higher Initiations!

              Prometheus

              Janice wrote:

              Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
              enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
              for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
              a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
              the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
              to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
              those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
              if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
              don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
              or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
              pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
              not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
              point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
              eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
              journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
              what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
              one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
              this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
              will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
              another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
              because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
              certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
              wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
              will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
              people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
              because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
              who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
              Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
              I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
              can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
              certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
              things. Thanks

              Russ wrote:

              Good Day All!

              Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

              I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
              missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
              current.

              What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
              it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
              severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

              I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
              (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
              awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
              part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

              I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
              simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
              about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
              only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
              followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
              can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
              believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
              us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
              teacher.

              So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
              leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
              and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
              thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
              And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
              also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

              What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
              faall awwaaaay.

              Russ

            • etznab@aol.com
              Try researching the definition for corporation sole. A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ( sole ) incorporated office, occupied by a
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
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                Try researching the definition for corporation sole.

                A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
                incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

                My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
                Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
                this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
                is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
                can in any way trump the single individual in charge.

                Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
                that first. I think they can, but are not sure.

                Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
                One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
                with legal voting rights.

                Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
                the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 5:32 pm
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

                 
                I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the
                rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal
                regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read,
                members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of
                directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a
                chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board
                of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials
                can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
                 
                I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of
                Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining
                nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view
                of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that
                it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier
                time maintianing their status there.
                 
                Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members? 
                Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that
                would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I
                mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country
                members.
                --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:


                From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM

                  "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
                admitting to her participation
                in the scam!"

                According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
                all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
                possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.

                There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
                don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
                this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.

                I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
                really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
                she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
                same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
                struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
                haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
                TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.

                Etznab

                -----Original Message-----
                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

                 
                Hello All,
                Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
                Gross and Twitchell
                have taught us about
                the religious con. Many
                Eckists are still learning
                and will never understand
                the lesson. The longer
                one remains under the
                influence the more stuck
                they become. These long-
                time EKists are generally
                identified via impressive
                titles and higher initiations.
                Other than that these three
                were not true teachers and
                certainly weren't masters...
                except at deceit.

                I think that the best lie can
                be told when the teller allows
                himself to believe it as well.
                Plus, of course, a little truth
                mixed in also helps to make
                it more believable.

                Twitchell (and Gail) were the
                two originators of the lie and
                were more aware of the distortions
                than the Twitchells' followers.

                Next came Gross (and Gail
                again). By being once removed
                from the con it appears that
                Darwin did, at first, believe
                some of Twitchell's religious
                myth. But, Gail, of course,
                never believed any of Paul's
                Mastership Stories. She did
                like the attention, to a degree,
                and the friendships she had
                made. Mostly, she likes the
                things that money could/can
                buy.

                Next came Klemp. He despised
                Darwin because of the womanizing,
                flashy egocentric appearance,
                and DG's big spending habits.
                However, HK was also envious
                of Darwin's power and title/status.
                Klemp learned how to "play-the-
                game" in order to be released
                early from a mental institution
                in 1970 and flew under the radar
                to have Darwin trust him and
                need him (depend upon him)
                to write EK publications.

                Klemp showed Darwin what he
                wanted to see... a meek and mild
                admirer who was easily controlled.
                This way Darwin could continue
                to have fun and the admiration
                of Eckists while Klemp would run
                the business and write the books.

                Since Klemp is more removed
                from the original truth of Eckankar
                being a scam and a vocation for
                the Twitchells' I do think that he's
                deluded enough to believe the
                hype... to a certain point. Plus,
                Gail's not going to tell him the
                truth anyway because she'd be
                admitting to her participation
                in the scam! BTW- Did you know
                that Harold's daughter, Marion,
                has the middle name of Gail.

                Klemp wants to believe the hype
                because he's not only a narcissist,
                and is vain, but he's also mentally
                unstable.

                He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
                principle. When people write to him
                and say they saw him in their dreams
                yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
                it.... to a degree. The problem is
                that Klemp doesn't remember any
                of it! He's unaware of what's going
                on (on the "INNER") and that's why
                he needs Eckists to "write" to him
                via their snail-mail testimonials.

                So, how does HK rationalize it?
                Well, he's getting what he wants...
                financial security, admiration,
                and he's the boss!

                Eckists get what they want
                and need. Someone to look
                up to, worship, dream of &
                journal, believe in and trust!
                And, they have EK Centers,
                Worship Services, HU Sings,
                Harji potlucks, their books,
                CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
                seminars, invisible and
                immortal ECK Masters and
                those Higher Initiations!

                Prometheus

                Janice wrote:

                Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
                enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
                for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
                a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
                the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
                to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
                those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
                if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
                don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
                or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
                pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
                not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
                point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
                eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
                journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
                what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
                one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
                this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
                will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
                another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
                because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
                certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
                wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
                will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
                people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
                because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
                who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
                Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
                I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
                can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
                certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
                things. Thanks

                Russ wrote:

                Good Day All!

                Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

                I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
                missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
                current.

                What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
                it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
                severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

                I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
                (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
                awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
                part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

                I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
                simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
                about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
                only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
                followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
                can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
                believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
                us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
                teacher.

                So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
                leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
                and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
                thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
                And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
                also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

                What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
                faall awwaaaay.

                Russ
              • etznab18
                Page search for the word amended here. http://web.archive.org/web/20091130045925/http://darwingrosstruthfile.homestead.com/DGTFitem3.html If link doesn t work,
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 18, 2012
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Page search for the word amended here.

                  http://web.archive.org/web/20091130045925/http://darwingrosstruthfile.homestead.com/DGTFitem3.html

                  If link doesn't work, try this one.

                  http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read, members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
                  >  
                  > I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier time maintianing their status there.
                  >  
                  > Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members?  Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country members.
                  > --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
                  > admitting to her participation
                  > in the scam!"
                  >
                  > According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
                  > all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
                  > possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.
                  >
                  > There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
                  > don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
                  > this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.
                  >
                  > I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
                  > really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
                  > she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
                  > same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
                  > struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
                  > haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
                  > TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.
                  >
                  > Etznab
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
                  > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                  >
                  >  
                  > Hello All,
                  > Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
                  > Gross and Twitchell
                  > have taught us about
                  > the religious con. Many
                  > Eckists are still learning
                  > and will never understand
                  > the lesson. The longer
                  > one remains under the
                  > influence the more stuck
                  > they become. These long-
                  > time EKists are generally
                  > identified via impressive
                  > titles and higher initiations.
                  > Other than that these three
                  > were not true teachers and
                  > certainly weren't masters...
                  > except at deceit.
                  >
                  > I think that the best lie can
                  > be told when the teller allows
                  > himself to believe it as well.
                  > Plus, of course, a little truth
                  > mixed in also helps to make
                  > it more believable.
                  >
                  > Twitchell (and Gail) were the
                  > two originators of the lie and
                  > were more aware of the distortions
                  > than the Twitchells' followers.
                  >
                  > Next came Gross (and Gail
                  > again). By being once removed
                  > from the con it appears that
                  > Darwin did, at first, believe
                  > some of Twitchell's religious
                  > myth. But, Gail, of course,
                  > never believed any of Paul's
                  > Mastership Stories. She did
                  > like the attention, to a degree,
                  > and the friendships she had
                  > made. Mostly, she likes the
                  > things that money could/can
                  > buy.
                  >
                  > Next came Klemp. He despised
                  > Darwin because of the womanizing,
                  > flashy egocentric appearance,
                  > and DG's big spending habits.
                  > However, HK was also envious
                  > of Darwin's power and title/status.
                  > Klemp learned how to "play-the-
                  > game" in order to be released
                  > early from a mental institution
                  > in 1970 and flew under the radar
                  > to have Darwin trust him and
                  > need him (depend upon him)
                  > to write EK publications.
                  >
                  > Klemp showed Darwin what he
                  > wanted to see... a meek and mild
                  > admirer who was easily controlled.
                  > This way Darwin could continue
                  > to have fun and the admiration
                  > of Eckists while Klemp would run
                  > the business and write the books.
                  >
                  > Since Klemp is more removed
                  > from the original truth of Eckankar
                  > being a scam and a vocation for
                  > the Twitchells' I do think that he's
                  > deluded enough to believe the
                  > hype... to a certain point. Plus,
                  > Gail's not going to tell him the
                  > truth anyway because she'd be
                  > admitting to her participation
                  > in the scam! BTW- Did you know
                  > that Harold's daughter, Marion,
                  > has the middle name of Gail.
                  >
                  > Klemp wants to believe the hype
                  > because he's not only a narcissist,
                  > and is vain, but he's also mentally
                  > unstable.
                  >
                  > He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
                  > principle. When people write to him
                  > and say they saw him in their dreams
                  > yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
                  > it.... to a degree. The problem is
                  > that Klemp doesn't remember any
                  > of it! He's unaware of what's going
                  > on (on the "INNER") and that's why
                  > he needs Eckists to "write" to him
                  > via their snail-mail testimonials.
                  >
                  > So, how does HK rationalize it?
                  > Well, he's getting what he wants...
                  > financial security, admiration,
                  > and he's the boss!
                  >
                  > Eckists get what they want
                  > and need. Someone to look
                  > up to, worship, dream of &
                  > journal, believe in and trust!
                  > And, they have EK Centers,
                  > Worship Services, HU Sings,
                  > Harji potlucks, their books,
                  > CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
                  > seminars, invisible and
                  > immortal ECK Masters and
                  > those Higher Initiations!
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  >
                  > Janice wrote:
                  >
                  > Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
                  > enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
                  > for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
                  > a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
                  > the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
                  > to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
                  > those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
                  > if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
                  > don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
                  > or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
                  > pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
                  > not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
                  > point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
                  > eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
                  > journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
                  > what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
                  > one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
                  > this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
                  > will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
                  > another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
                  > because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
                  > certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
                  > wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
                  > will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
                  > people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
                  > because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
                  > who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
                  > Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
                  > I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
                  > can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
                  > certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
                  > things. Thanks
                  >
                  > Russ wrote:
                  >
                  > Good Day All!
                  >
                  > Take what is good and leave the rest behind.
                  >
                  > I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
                  > missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
                  > current.
                  >
                  > What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
                  > it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
                  > severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.
                  >
                  > I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
                  > (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
                  > awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
                  > part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.
                  >
                  > I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
                  > simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
                  > about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
                  > only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
                  > followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
                  > can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
                  > believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
                  > us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
                  > teacher.
                  >
                  > So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
                  > leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
                  > and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
                  > thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
                  > And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
                  > also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.
                  >
                  > What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
                  > faall awwaaaay.
                  >
                  > Russ
                  >
                • etznab18
                  While on the link, also search for the word conspir - that will bring up all the words containing it and the places where they appear. What was that personal
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 18, 2012
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                    While on the link, also search for the word "conspir" - that will bring up all the words containing it and the places where they appear.

                    What was that personal e-mail sent to Prometheus recently that got posted here? Didn't it presume something about a group of people, whatever, doing something.

                    I have to check if the word conspired was there.

                    OK. Just adding links and noting information for reference purposes.

                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Page search for the word amended here.
                    >
                    > http://web.archive.org/web/20091130045925/http://darwingrosstruthfile.homestead.com/DGTFitem3.html
                    >
                    > If link doesn't work, try this one.
                    >
                    > http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read, members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
                    > >  
                    > > I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier time maintianing their status there.
                    > >  
                    > > Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members?  Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country members.
                    > > --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@ <etznab@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: etznab@ <etznab@>
                    > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                    > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
                    > > admitting to her participation
                    > > in the scam!"
                    > >
                    > > According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
                    > > all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
                    > > possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.
                    > >
                    > > There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
                    > > don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
                    > > this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.
                    > >
                    > > I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
                    > > really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
                    > > she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
                    > > same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
                    > > struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
                    > > haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
                    > > TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.
                    > >
                    > > Etznab
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                    > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
                    > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > > Hello All,
                    > > Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
                    > > Gross and Twitchell
                    > > have taught us about
                    > > the religious con. Many
                    > > Eckists are still learning
                    > > and will never understand
                    > > the lesson. The longer
                    > > one remains under the
                    > > influence the more stuck
                    > > they become. These long-
                    > > time EKists are generally
                    > > identified via impressive
                    > > titles and higher initiations.
                    > > Other than that these three
                    > > were not true teachers and
                    > > certainly weren't masters...
                    > > except at deceit.
                    > >
                    > > I think that the best lie can
                    > > be told when the teller allows
                    > > himself to believe it as well.
                    > > Plus, of course, a little truth
                    > > mixed in also helps to make
                    > > it more believable.
                    > >
                    > > Twitchell (and Gail) were the
                    > > two originators of the lie and
                    > > were more aware of the distortions
                    > > than the Twitchells' followers.
                    > >
                    > > Next came Gross (and Gail
                    > > again). By being once removed
                    > > from the con it appears that
                    > > Darwin did, at first, believe
                    > > some of Twitchell's religious
                    > > myth. But, Gail, of course,
                    > > never believed any of Paul's
                    > > Mastership Stories. She did
                    > > like the attention, to a degree,
                    > > and the friendships she had
                    > > made. Mostly, she likes the
                    > > things that money could/can
                    > > buy.
                    > >
                    > > Next came Klemp. He despised
                    > > Darwin because of the womanizing,
                    > > flashy egocentric appearance,
                    > > and DG's big spending habits.
                    > > However, HK was also envious
                    > > of Darwin's power and title/status.
                    > > Klemp learned how to "play-the-
                    > > game" in order to be released
                    > > early from a mental institution
                    > > in 1970 and flew under the radar
                    > > to have Darwin trust him and
                    > > need him (depend upon him)
                    > > to write EK publications.
                    > >
                    > > Klemp showed Darwin what he
                    > > wanted to see... a meek and mild
                    > > admirer who was easily controlled.
                    > > This way Darwin could continue
                    > > to have fun and the admiration
                    > > of Eckists while Klemp would run
                    > > the business and write the books.
                    > >
                    > > Since Klemp is more removed
                    > > from the original truth of Eckankar
                    > > being a scam and a vocation for
                    > > the Twitchells' I do think that he's
                    > > deluded enough to believe the
                    > > hype... to a certain point. Plus,
                    > > Gail's not going to tell him the
                    > > truth anyway because she'd be
                    > > admitting to her participation
                    > > in the scam! BTW- Did you know
                    > > that Harold's daughter, Marion,
                    > > has the middle name of Gail.
                    > >
                    > > Klemp wants to believe the hype
                    > > because he's not only a narcissist,
                    > > and is vain, but he's also mentally
                    > > unstable.
                    > >
                    > > He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
                    > > principle. When people write to him
                    > > and say they saw him in their dreams
                    > > yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
                    > > it.... to a degree. The problem is
                    > > that Klemp doesn't remember any
                    > > of it! He's unaware of what's going
                    > > on (on the "INNER") and that's why
                    > > he needs Eckists to "write" to him
                    > > via their snail-mail testimonials.
                    > >
                    > > So, how does HK rationalize it?
                    > > Well, he's getting what he wants...
                    > > financial security, admiration,
                    > > and he's the boss!
                    > >
                    > > Eckists get what they want
                    > > and need. Someone to look
                    > > up to, worship, dream of &
                    > > journal, believe in and trust!
                    > > And, they have EK Centers,
                    > > Worship Services, HU Sings,
                    > > Harji potlucks, their books,
                    > > CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
                    > > seminars, invisible and
                    > > immortal ECK Masters and
                    > > those Higher Initiations!
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > > Janice wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
                    > > enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
                    > > for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
                    > > a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
                    > > the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
                    > > to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
                    > > those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
                    > > if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
                    > > don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
                    > > or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
                    > > pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
                    > > not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
                    > > point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
                    > > eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
                    > > journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
                    > > what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
                    > > one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
                    > > this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
                    > > will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
                    > > another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
                    > > because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
                    > > certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
                    > > wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
                    > > will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
                    > > people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
                    > > because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
                    > > who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
                    > > Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
                    > > I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
                    > > can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
                    > > certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
                    > > things. Thanks
                    > >
                    > > Russ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Good Day All!
                    > >
                    > > Take what is good and leave the rest behind.
                    > >
                    > > I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
                    > > missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
                    > > current.
                    > >
                    > > What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
                    > > it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
                    > > severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.
                    > >
                    > > I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
                    > > (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
                    > > awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
                    > > part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.
                    > >
                    > > I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
                    > > simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
                    > > about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
                    > > only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
                    > > followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
                    > > can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
                    > > believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
                    > > us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
                    > > teacher.
                    > >
                    > > So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
                    > > leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
                    > > and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
                    > > thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
                    > > And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
                    > > also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.
                    > >
                    > > What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
                    > > faall awwaaaay.
                    > >
                    > > Russ
                    > >
                    >
                  • etznab18
                    One revision to add. I think it s message 6210 that I mentioned. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/6120 Page search for the word
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 18, 2012
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                      One revision to add. I think it's message 6210 that I mentioned.

                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/6120

                      Page search for the word group in that message and compare with what Darwin Gross said happened.

                      http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme

                      For me, personally, I'm just checking to see if any substance to this idea about people knowing things, but doing other.

                      In a nutshell, I sort of imagine Eckankar (the org. structure, etc.) was faced with imminent implosion in the 1980s. Unless power were consolidated under a single individual (or core group of people) there would have been endless bickering / fighting with no real fixes put in place, imo. Sort of like the American two-party system negating and canceling out eachother.

                      By 1987 when I joined Eckankar, the structure had already changed. Paul's books / files had been sold (by Gail to Eckankar, c/o Darwin Gross, whatever), some destroyed, some key people in the beginning of Eckankar had left the org., or were sent packing, I mean Darwin Gross was long gone, the books were being revised and edited further, all these things and more were done before I even became a member. And for the past five or so years I've been HAVING FUN [NOT] trying to find out so much of that past history on my own (helped by others - including ESA). And to my credit I've compiled user-friendly files in timeline format so I can target an area, a time period, and facilitate a deeper review by looking at what has already been given, written, etc.). Lots of people have helped with this, whether knowing or not, including ESA. Much of the trivia out in public domain I've compiled and done further research on (I don't know of many other people who have done so in the same fashion, or to the same extent. There is at least one other person I know about ...)

                      Having documents and book information, etc. helps when discussing things ... and so I don't have to come across as a heretic, or (so to speak) have my battleship blown out of the water by anybody and everybody who simply says: "Yeah right. That's just heresy. You have no proof." To the contrary. this stuff - numerous files - helps to keep me up to speed about the contradictions and issues, etc. Moreso, it helps to have a format where I can locate the information quickly and easily (like when discussing things here, or elsewhere). And when new information is found I can update the older material.

                      This idea about a covert group, or groups, doing things that led to a change in Eckankar "structure" (including the history and writings) is intriguing to me, to say the least. I've given up doing as much collecting of information as I used to about all this stuff, nevertheless, I'm starting to review once again that pivotal era of the 1980s just to see what more (anything new) can be learned.

                      Thanks to everyone for sharing, discussing, looking at this stuff again and again. For letting me (and others) belong to ESA. It helps to fill in the missing pieces, but not everybody wants (or likes) to talk about this stuff. maybe it's just not FUN enough :)

                      Etznab

                      P.S.

                      "He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the
                      present controls the past." - George Orwell, 1984

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > While on the link, also search for the word "conspir" - that will bring up all the words containing it and the places where they appear.
                      >
                      > What was that personal e-mail sent to Prometheus recently that got posted here? Didn't it presume something about a group of people, whatever, doing something.
                      >
                      > I have to check if the word conspired was there.
                      >
                      > OK. Just adding links and noting information for reference purposes.
                      >
                      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Page search for the word amended here.
                      > >
                      > > http://web.archive.org/web/20091130045925/http://darwingrosstruthfile.homestead.com/DGTFitem3.html
                      > >
                      > > If link doesn't work, try this one.
                      > >
                      > > http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme
                      > >
                      > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read, members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
                      > > >  
                      > > > I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier time maintianing their status there.
                      > > >  
                      > > > Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members?  Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country members.
                      > > > --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@ <etznab@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > From: etznab@ <etznab@>
                      > > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                      > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >  
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
                      > > > admitting to her participation
                      > > > in the scam!"
                      > > >
                      > > > According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
                      > > > all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
                      > > > possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.
                      > > >
                      > > > There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
                      > > > don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
                      > > > this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.
                      > > >
                      > > > I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
                      > > > really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
                      > > > she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
                      > > > same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
                      > > > struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
                      > > > haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
                      > > > TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.
                      > > >
                      > > > Etznab
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                      > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                      > > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
                      > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                      > > >
                      > > >  
                      > > > Hello All,
                      > > > Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
                      > > > Gross and Twitchell
                      > > > have taught us about
                      > > > the religious con. Many
                      > > > Eckists are still learning
                      > > > and will never understand
                      > > > the lesson. The longer
                      > > > one remains under the
                      > > > influence the more stuck
                      > > > they become. These long-
                      > > > time EKists are generally
                      > > > identified via impressive
                      > > > titles and higher initiations.
                      > > > Other than that these three
                      > > > were not true teachers and
                      > > > certainly weren't masters...
                      > > > except at deceit.
                      > > >
                      > > > I think that the best lie can
                      > > > be told when the teller allows
                      > > > himself to believe it as well.
                      > > > Plus, of course, a little truth
                      > > > mixed in also helps to make
                      > > > it more believable.
                      > > >
                      > > > Twitchell (and Gail) were the
                      > > > two originators of the lie and
                      > > > were more aware of the distortions
                      > > > than the Twitchells' followers.
                      > > >
                      > > > Next came Gross (and Gail
                      > > > again). By being once removed
                      > > > from the con it appears that
                      > > > Darwin did, at first, believe
                      > > > some of Twitchell's religious
                      > > > myth. But, Gail, of course,
                      > > > never believed any of Paul's
                      > > > Mastership Stories. She did
                      > > > like the attention, to a degree,
                      > > > and the friendships she had
                      > > > made. Mostly, she likes the
                      > > > things that money could/can
                      > > > buy.
                      > > >
                      > > > Next came Klemp. He despised
                      > > > Darwin because of the womanizing,
                      > > > flashy egocentric appearance,
                      > > > and DG's big spending habits.
                      > > > However, HK was also envious
                      > > > of Darwin's power and title/status.
                      > > > Klemp learned how to "play-the-
                      > > > game" in order to be released
                      > > > early from a mental institution
                      > > > in 1970 and flew under the radar
                      > > > to have Darwin trust him and
                      > > > need him (depend upon him)
                      > > > to write EK publications.
                      > > >
                      > > > Klemp showed Darwin what he
                      > > > wanted to see... a meek and mild
                      > > > admirer who was easily controlled.
                      > > > This way Darwin could continue
                      > > > to have fun and the admiration
                      > > > of Eckists while Klemp would run
                      > > > the business and write the books.
                      > > >
                      > > > Since Klemp is more removed
                      > > > from the original truth of Eckankar
                      > > > being a scam and a vocation for
                      > > > the Twitchells' I do think that he's
                      > > > deluded enough to believe the
                      > > > hype... to a certain point. Plus,
                      > > > Gail's not going to tell him the
                      > > > truth anyway because she'd be
                      > > > admitting to her participation
                      > > > in the scam! BTW- Did you know
                      > > > that Harold's daughter, Marion,
                      > > > has the middle name of Gail.
                      > > >
                      > > > Klemp wants to believe the hype
                      > > > because he's not only a narcissist,
                      > > > and is vain, but he's also mentally
                      > > > unstable.
                      > > >
                      > > > He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
                      > > > principle. When people write to him
                      > > > and say they saw him in their dreams
                      > > > yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
                      > > > it.... to a degree. The problem is
                      > > > that Klemp doesn't remember any
                      > > > of it! He's unaware of what's going
                      > > > on (on the "INNER") and that's why
                      > > > he needs Eckists to "write" to him
                      > > > via their snail-mail testimonials.
                      > > >
                      > > > So, how does HK rationalize it?
                      > > > Well, he's getting what he wants...
                      > > > financial security, admiration,
                      > > > and he's the boss!
                      > > >
                      > > > Eckists get what they want
                      > > > and need. Someone to look
                      > > > up to, worship, dream of &
                      > > > journal, believe in and trust!
                      > > > And, they have EK Centers,
                      > > > Worship Services, HU Sings,
                      > > > Harji potlucks, their books,
                      > > > CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
                      > > > seminars, invisible and
                      > > > immortal ECK Masters and
                      > > > those Higher Initiations!
                      > > >
                      > > > Prometheus
                      > > >
                      > > > Janice wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
                      > > > enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
                      > > > for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
                      > > > a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
                      > > > the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
                      > > > to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
                      > > > those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
                      > > > if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
                      > > > don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
                      > > > or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
                      > > > pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
                      > > > not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
                      > > > point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
                      > > > eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
                      > > > journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
                      > > > what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
                      > > > one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
                      > > > this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
                      > > > will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
                      > > > another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
                      > > > because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
                      > > > certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
                      > > > wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
                      > > > will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
                      > > > people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
                      > > > because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
                      > > > who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
                      > > > Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
                      > > > I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
                      > > > can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
                      > > > certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
                      > > > things. Thanks
                      > > >
                      > > > Russ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Good Day All!
                      > > >
                      > > > Take what is good and leave the rest behind.
                      > > >
                      > > > I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
                      > > > missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
                      > > > current.
                      > > >
                      > > > What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
                      > > > it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
                      > > > severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.
                      > > >
                      > > > I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
                      > > > (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
                      > > > awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
                      > > > part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.
                      > > >
                      > > > I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
                      > > > simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
                      > > > about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
                      > > > only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
                      > > > followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
                      > > > can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
                      > > > believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
                      > > > us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
                      > > > teacher.
                      > > >
                      > > > So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
                      > > > leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
                      > > > and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
                      > > > thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
                      > > > And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
                      > > > also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.
                      > > >
                      > > > What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
                      > > > faall awwaaaay.
                      > > >
                      > > > Russ
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • prometheus_973
                      Hello Etznab and All, Klemp had the corporate by-laws for Eckankar rewritten after Darwin was booted. Therefore, the President of Eckankar was no longer the
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 19, 2012
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                        Hello Etznab and All,
                        Klemp had the corporate
                        by-laws for Eckankar
                        rewritten after Darwin
                        was booted. Therefore,
                        the President of Eckankar
                        was no longer the head
                        of the org and of the
                        church.

                        Darwin screwed up by
                        not stating on stage or
                        in print that he, as the
                        Mahanta, was still the
                        head of Eckankar and
                        that Harold, as LEM, was
                        overseeing other areas.
                        Upon acceptance Harold
                        would not have had the
                        legal ground to present
                        a challenge. In Darwin's
                        day the ECK Board, 8th
                        initiates, still had a real
                        voice and vote. The by-laws
                        were written as such.
                        And, IMO, the Board (8ths)
                        would never have sided
                        with a new 12th initiate
                        LEM over the 14th initiate
                        Mahanta.

                        BTW- When Twitchell
                        first defined the LEM
                        he made no mention
                        of the Mahanta. It wasn't
                        until 1969 that he created
                        the Mahanta title and
                        rewrites began. Just
                        look at the definition
                        for LEM in, even, HK's
                        first Lexicon. There's
                        no mention of the
                        "Mahanta" in the body
                        of the definition. At
                        the bottom it states:
                        (see Mahanta).

                        And, Klemp did his own
                        revisions by stating that
                        even though the LEM is
                        synonymous with being
                        the Mahanta... that the
                        LEM is "in training" until
                        he can become a "Full"
                        14th Mahanta. Why did
                        Klemp feel this additional
                        clarification as necessary?
                        It's because Darwin was
                        the LEM/Mahanta! Therefore
                        Klemp had to make it seem
                        that he was either on the
                        same Initiation Level or
                        Higher than Gross. After
                        all, how could a new 12th
                        LEM have the Hierarchal
                        authority to unseat a "Full"
                        14th (or higher) Mahanta
                        otherwise? He wouldn't
                        and there lies the rub!
                        Klemp's ekplanation
                        is called "tying up loose
                        ends."


                        Anyway, HK now has
                        "sole" authority to hire
                        and fire and to make
                        all decisions. Peter Skelsky,
                        the President of Eckankar,
                        works for Klemp and
                        runs the business side
                        of Eckankar.

                        The ECK Board members,
                        also, sit at Klemp's pleasure
                        and serve as a sounding
                        board for him. He merely
                        considers their opinions
                        but is under no obligation
                        to follow anything they
                        might suggest or vote
                        upon. They simply keep
                        him up-to-date and
                        informed on various
                        issues and assignments.

                        As Above, So Below.

                        The chartered Satsang
                        Societies are set up
                        in the same manner
                        as the ECK Board at
                        the ESC and follow
                        hierarchal procedure.
                        Generally, however,
                        the President of the
                        Satsang Society doesn't
                        have nearly as much
                        authority or oversight
                        duties as does their
                        counterpart, at the ESC,
                        Peter Skelsky. Then,
                        again, some RESAs
                        aren't very "hands on"
                        and tend to designate
                        more responsibility to
                        others.

                        The RESAs, basically,
                        have been given sole
                        church authority over
                        those Eckists within
                        their regional areas.
                        They hire, fire, promote
                        and oversee the local
                        operations and mission
                        of the Satsang Society
                        based upon field-tested
                        Guidelines supplied to
                        them by the ESC. Of course,
                        ECK-ankar is a hierarchy
                        and even RESAs answer
                        to higher ups at the ESC
                        assigned (by HK or his
                        emissaries) to oversee
                        them. Harold is the "sole"
                        piece of crap in charge
                        of this minor New Age
                        religious con and cult.

                        Prometheus


                        etznab@... wrote:

                        Try researching the definition for corporation sole.

                        A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
                        incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

                        My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
                        Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
                        this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
                        is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
                        can in any way trump the single individual in charge.

                        Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
                        that first. I think they can, but are not sure.

                        Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
                        One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
                        with legal voting rights.

                        Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
                        the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.
                      • etznab@aol.com
                        And, IMO, the Board (8ths) would never have sided with a new 12th initiate LEM over the 14th initiate Mahanta. I remember reading something about four 8th
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 19, 2012
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                          "And, IMO, the Board (8ths) would never have sided with a new 12th
                          initiate LEM over the 14th initiate Mahanta."

                          I remember reading something about four 8th initiate grandmothers, or
                          something. Let me see.

                          (7) Four "eighth initiates" demanded Harold takeover the Eckankar
                          Corporation in a letter to certain Trustees (concealed from myself,
                          Alan Nichols and Bob Brant). The letter was signed by four women, most
                          or all of whom were grandmothers. It was used by the conspirators to
                          cover-up the takeover power grab.

                          http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme

                          Just thought that was relevant here.

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sun, Feb 19, 2012 1:19 pm
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

                           
                          Hello Etznab and All,
                          Klemp had the corporate
                          by-laws for Eckankar
                          rewritten after Darwin
                          was booted. Therefore,
                          the President of Eckankar
                          was no longer the head
                          of the org and of the
                          church.

                          Darwin screwed up by
                          not stating on stage or
                          in print that he, as the
                          Mahanta, was still the
                          head of Eckankar and
                          that Harold, as LEM, was
                          overseeing other areas.
                          Upon acceptance Harold
                          would not have had the
                          legal ground to present
                          a challenge. In Darwin's
                          day the ECK Board, 8th
                          initiates, still had a real
                          voice and vote. The by-laws
                          were written as such.
                          And, IMO, the Board (8ths)
                          would never have sided
                          with a new 12th initiate
                          LEM over the 14th initiate
                          Mahanta.

                          BTW- When Twitchell
                          first defined the LEM
                          he made no mention
                          of the Mahanta. It wasn't
                          until 1969 that the
                          rewrites began. Just
                          look at the definition
                          for LEM in, even, HK's
                          first Lexicon.

                          At the bottom it states:
                          (see Mahanta). And, Klemp
                          did his own revisions by
                          stating that even though
                          it states that the LEM is
                          synonymous with being
                          the Mahanta... that the
                          LEM is "in training" until
                          he can be a "Full" 14th
                          Mahanta.

                          Anyway, HK now has
                          "sole" authority to hire
                          and fire and to make
                          all decisions. Peter Skelsky,
                          the President of Eckankar,
                          works for Klemp and
                          runs the business side
                          of Eckankar.

                          The ECK Board members,
                          also, sit at Klemp's pleasure
                          and serve as a sounding
                          board for him. He merely
                          considers their opinions
                          but is under no obligation
                          to follow anything they
                          might suggest or vote
                          upon. They simply keep
                          him up-to-date and
                          informed on various
                          issues and assignments.

                          As Above, So Below.

                          The chartered Satsang
                          Societies are set up
                          in the same manner
                          as the ECK Board at
                          the ESC and follow
                          hierarchal procedure.
                          Generally, however,
                          the President of the
                          Satsang Society doesn't
                          have nearly as much
                          authority or oversight
                          duties as does Peter
                          Skelsky. Then, again,
                          some RESAs aren't very
                          "hands on" and tend
                          to designate more
                          responsibility to others.

                          The RESAs, basically,
                          have been given sole
                          church authority over
                          those Eckists within
                          their regional areas.
                          They hire, fire, promote
                          and oversee the local
                          operations and mission
                          of the Satsang Society
                          based upon field-tested
                          Guidelines supplied to
                          them by the ESC. Of course,
                          ECK-ankar is a hierarchy
                          and even RESAs answer
                          to higher ups at the ESC
                          assigned (by HK or his
                          emissaries) to oversee
                          them. Harold is the "sole"
                          piece of crap in charge
                          of this minor New Age
                          religious con and cult.

                          Prometheus


                          etznab@... wrote:

                          Try researching the definition for corporation sole.

                          A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
                          incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]

                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

                          My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
                          Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
                          this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
                          is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
                          can in any way trump the single individual in charge.

                          Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
                          that first. I think they can, but are not sure.

                          Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
                          One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
                          with legal voting rights.

                          Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
                          the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Etznab and All, Yes, after Klemp took over he devised a plan to demonize Darwin in order to appear as if he was more spiritual, innocent and pure. HK
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 19, 2012
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                            Hello Etznab and All,
                            Yes, after Klemp took
                            over he devised a plan
                            to demonize Darwin
                            in order to appear as
                            if he was more spiritual,
                            innocent and pure.

                            HK fooled them all!

                            The truth is Klemp was
                            never good at sharing
                            nor playing and working
                            well with others.

                            As I said, DG screwed
                            up by handing the EK
                            car keys over to HK.

                            Plus, let's not forget that
                            Darwin had divorced Gail
                            and that she had a lot of
                            ECK friends and admirers.
                            Many were 7ths and 8ths
                            and they felt sorry for her
                            because they felt DG had
                            dishonored her and caste
                            her aside. They related to
                            this. Of course, these Eckists
                            didn't know the real Gail
                            and that she was a master
                            manipulator who inspired
                            and assisted Paul with the
                            con. Behind their backs,
                            she laughed at them all
                            for believing in Paul's lies
                            and trickery. Of course,
                            she also laughed all the
                            way to the bank after that
                            buyout of $500K and is
                            a millionaire even today!

                            Prometheus


                            Etznab wrote:

                            "And, IMO, the Board (8ths) would never have sided with a new 12th
                            initiate LEM over the 14th initiate Mahanta."

                            I remember reading something about four 8th initiate grandmothers, or
                            something. Let me see.

                            (7) Four "eighth initiates" demanded Harold takeover the Eckankar
                            Corporation in a letter to certain Trustees (concealed from myself,
                            Alan Nichols and Bob Brant). The letter was signed by four women, most
                            or all of whom were grandmothers. It was used by the conspirators to
                            cover-up the takeover power grab.

                            http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme

                            Just thought that was relevant here.


                            prometheus wrote:

                            Hello Etznab and All,
                            Klemp had the corporate
                            by-laws for Eckankar
                            rewritten after Darwin
                            was booted. Therefore,
                            the President of Eckankar
                            was no longer the head
                            of the org and of the
                            church.

                            Darwin screwed up by
                            not stating on stage or
                            in print that he, as the
                            Mahanta, was still the
                            head of Eckankar and
                            that Harold, as LEM, was
                            overseeing other areas.
                            Upon acceptance Harold
                            would not have had the
                            legal ground to present
                            a challenge. In Darwin's
                            day the ECK Board, 8th
                            initiates, still had a real
                            voice and vote. The by-laws
                            were written as such.
                            And, IMO, the Board (8ths)
                            would never have sided
                            with a new 12th initiate
                            LEM over the 14th initiate
                            Mahanta.

                            BTW- When Twitchell
                            first defined the LEM
                            he made no mention
                            of the Mahanta. It wasn't
                            until 1969 that the
                            rewrites began. Just
                            look at the definition
                            for LEM in, even, HK's
                            first Lexicon.

                            At the bottom it states:
                            (see Mahanta). And, Klemp
                            did his own revisions by
                            stating that even though
                            it states that the LEM is
                            synonymous with being
                            the Mahanta... that the
                            LEM is "in training" until
                            he can be a "Full" 14th
                            Mahanta.

                            Anyway, HK now has
                            "sole" authority to hire
                            and fire and to make
                            all decisions. Peter Skelsky,
                            the President of Eckankar,
                            works for Klemp and
                            runs the business side
                            of Eckankar.

                            The ECK Board members,
                            also, sit at Klemp's pleasure
                            and serve as a sounding
                            board for him. He merely
                            considers their opinions
                            but is under no obligation
                            to follow anything they
                            might suggest or vote
                            upon. They simply keep
                            him up-to-date and
                            informed on various
                            issues and assignments.

                            As Above, So Below.

                            The chartered Satsang
                            Societies are set up
                            in the same manner
                            as the ECK Board at
                            the ESC and follow
                            hierarchal procedure.
                            Generally, however,
                            the President of the
                            Satsang Society doesn't
                            have nearly as much
                            authority or oversight
                            duties as does Peter
                            Skelsky. Then, again,
                            some RESAs aren't very
                            "hands on" and tend
                            to designate more
                            responsibility to others.

                            The RESAs, basically,
                            have been given sole
                            church authority over
                            those Eckists within
                            their regional areas.
                            They hire, fire, promote
                            and oversee the local
                            operations and mission
                            of the Satsang Society
                            based upon field-tested
                            Guidelines supplied to
                            them by the ESC. Of course,
                            ECK-ankar is a hierarchy
                            and even RESAs answer
                            to higher ups at the ESC
                            assigned (by HK or his
                            emissaries) to oversee
                            them. Harold is the "sole"
                            piece of crap in charge
                            of this minor New Age
                            religious con and cult.

                            Prometheus


                            etznab@... wrote:

                            Try researching the definition for corporation sole.

                            A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
                            incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

                            My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
                            Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
                            this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
                            is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
                            can in any way trump the single individual in charge.

                            Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
                            that first. I think they can, but are not sure.

                            Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
                            One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
                            with legal voting rights.

                            Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
                            the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.
                          • Tyson
                            Harold Klemp is a big poser. Tell me something I dont know.
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 28, 2012
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                              Harold Klemp is a big poser. Tell me something I dont know.
                              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Etznab and All,
                              > Yes, after Klemp took
                              > over he devised a plan
                              > to demonize Darwin
                              > in order to appear as
                              > if he was more spiritual,
                              > innocent and pure.
                              >
                              > HK fooled them all!
                              >
                              > The truth is Klemp was
                              > never good at sharing
                              > nor playing and working
                              > well with others.
                              >
                              > As I said, DG screwed
                              > up by handing the EK
                              > car keys over to HK.
                              >
                              > Plus, let's not forget that
                              > Darwin had divorced Gail
                              > and that she had a lot of
                              > ECK friends and admirers.
                              > Many were 7ths and 8ths
                              > and they felt sorry for her
                              > because they felt DG had
                              > dishonored her and caste
                              > her aside. They related to
                              > this. Of course, these Eckists
                              > didn't know the real Gail
                              > and that she was a master
                              > manipulator who inspired
                              > and assisted Paul with the
                              > con. Behind their backs,
                              > she laughed at them all
                              > for believing in Paul's lies
                              > and trickery. Of course,
                              > she also laughed all the
                              > way to the bank after that
                              > buyout of $500K and is
                              > a millionaire even today!
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              > Etznab wrote:
                              >
                              > "And, IMO, the Board (8ths) would never have sided with a new 12th
                              > initiate LEM over the 14th initiate Mahanta."
                              >
                              > I remember reading something about four 8th initiate grandmothers, or
                              > something. Let me see.
                              >
                              > (7) Four "eighth initiates" demanded Harold takeover the Eckankar
                              > Corporation in a letter to certain Trustees (concealed from myself,
                              > Alan Nichols and Bob Brant). The letter was signed by four women, most
                              > or all of whom were grandmothers. It was used by the conspirators to
                              > cover-up the takeover power grab.
                              >
                              > http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme
                              >
                              > Just thought that was relevant here.
                              >
                              >
                              > prometheus wrote:
                              >
                              > Hello Etznab and All,
                              > Klemp had the corporate
                              > by-laws for Eckankar
                              > rewritten after Darwin
                              > was booted. Therefore,
                              > the President of Eckankar
                              > was no longer the head
                              > of the org and of the
                              > church.
                              >
                              > Darwin screwed up by
                              > not stating on stage or
                              > in print that he, as the
                              > Mahanta, was still the
                              > head of Eckankar and
                              > that Harold, as LEM, was
                              > overseeing other areas.
                              > Upon acceptance Harold
                              > would not have had the
                              > legal ground to present
                              > a challenge. In Darwin's
                              > day the ECK Board, 8th
                              > initiates, still had a real
                              > voice and vote. The by-laws
                              > were written as such.
                              > And, IMO, the Board (8ths)
                              > would never have sided
                              > with a new 12th initiate
                              > LEM over the 14th initiate
                              > Mahanta.
                              >
                              > BTW- When Twitchell
                              > first defined the LEM
                              > he made no mention
                              > of the Mahanta. It wasn't
                              > until 1969 that the
                              > rewrites began. Just
                              > look at the definition
                              > for LEM in, even, HK's
                              > first Lexicon.
                              >
                              > At the bottom it states:
                              > (see Mahanta). And, Klemp
                              > did his own revisions by
                              > stating that even though
                              > it states that the LEM is
                              > synonymous with being
                              > the Mahanta... that the
                              > LEM is "in training" until
                              > he can be a "Full" 14th
                              > Mahanta.
                              >
                              > Anyway, HK now has
                              > "sole" authority to hire
                              > and fire and to make
                              > all decisions. Peter Skelsky,
                              > the President of Eckankar,
                              > works for Klemp and
                              > runs the business side
                              > of Eckankar.
                              >
                              > The ECK Board members,
                              > also, sit at Klemp's pleasure
                              > and serve as a sounding
                              > board for him. He merely
                              > considers their opinions
                              > but is under no obligation
                              > to follow anything they
                              > might suggest or vote
                              > upon. They simply keep
                              > him up-to-date and
                              > informed on various
                              > issues and assignments.
                              >
                              > As Above, So Below.
                              >
                              > The chartered Satsang
                              > Societies are set up
                              > in the same manner
                              > as the ECK Board at
                              > the ESC and follow
                              > hierarchal procedure.
                              > Generally, however,
                              > the President of the
                              > Satsang Society doesn't
                              > have nearly as much
                              > authority or oversight
                              > duties as does Peter
                              > Skelsky. Then, again,
                              > some RESAs aren't very
                              > "hands on" and tend
                              > to designate more
                              > responsibility to others.
                              >
                              > The RESAs, basically,
                              > have been given sole
                              > church authority over
                              > those Eckists within
                              > their regional areas.
                              > They hire, fire, promote
                              > and oversee the local
                              > operations and mission
                              > of the Satsang Society
                              > based upon field-tested
                              > Guidelines supplied to
                              > them by the ESC. Of course,
                              > ECK-ankar is a hierarchy
                              > and even RESAs answer
                              > to higher ups at the ESC
                              > assigned (by HK or his
                              > emissaries) to oversee
                              > them. Harold is the "sole"
                              > piece of crap in charge
                              > of this minor New Age
                              > religious con and cult.
                              >
                              > Prometheus
                              >
                              >
                              > etznab@ wrote:
                              >
                              > Try researching the definition for corporation sole.
                              >
                              > A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
                              > incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]
                              >
                              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole
                              >
                              > My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
                              > Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
                              > this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
                              > is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
                              > can in any way trump the single individual in charge.
                              >
                              > Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
                              > that first. I think they can, but are not sure.
                              >
                              > Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
                              > One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
                              > with legal voting rights.
                              >
                              > Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
                              > the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.
                              >
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