Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Where I Stand

Expand Messages
  • russrodnick
    Good Day All! Take what is good and leave the rest behind. I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been missing in my spiritual practice
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Good Day All!

      Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

      I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound current.

      What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

      I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

      I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best teacher.

      So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho. And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

      What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs faall awwaaaay.

      Russ
    • Janice Pfeiffer
      Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience.  I too enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu for a while after
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience.  I too enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu for a while after leaving until I found other words to use.  There was a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others.  I would prefer to read the originals.  The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist if it is beneficial.  The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting.  I don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual or religious group again.  I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and pieces that are useful to me.  I don't know if this is the best way or not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this point.  I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in eckankar and since leaving.  It makes me feel less alone in my own journey.  It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development.  The one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies.  To me this is inexcusable.  I hope through hearing from people like you I will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or another.  I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a certain amount of my attention.  I don't think about it continually but wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste.  There will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other people for self glorification.  Part of me just can't seem to let go because I  see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.  Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others.  These can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right.  I could certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these things.  Thanks

        --- On Fri, 2/17/12, russrodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

        From: russrodnick <russrodnick@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 3:33 PM

         
        Good Day All!

        Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

        I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound current.

        What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

        I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

        I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best teacher.

        So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho. And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

        What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs faall awwaaaay.

        Russ

      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, Interesting. Yes, Klemp, Gross and Twitchell have taught us about the religious con. Many Eckists are still learning and will never understand the
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello All,
          Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
          Gross and Twitchell
          have taught us about
          the religious con. Many
          Eckists are still learning
          and will never understand
          the lesson. The longer
          one remains under the
          influence the more stuck
          they become. These long-
          time EKists are generally
          identified via impressive
          titles and higher initiations.
          Other than that these three
          were not true teachers and
          certainly weren't masters...
          except at deceit.

          I think that the best lie can
          be told when the teller allows
          himself to believe it as well.
          Plus, of course, a little truth
          mixed in also helps to make
          it more believable.

          Twitchell (and Gail) were the
          two originators of the lie and
          were more aware of the distortions
          than the Twitchells' followers.

          Next came Gross (and Gail
          again). By being once removed
          from the con it appears that
          Darwin did, at first, believe
          some of Twitchell's religious
          myth. But, Gail, of course,
          never believed any of Paul's
          Mastership Stories. She did
          like the attention, to a degree,
          and the friendships she had
          made. Mostly, she likes the
          things that money could/can
          buy.

          Next came Klemp. He despised
          Darwin because of the womanizing,
          flashy egocentric appearance,
          and DG's big spending habits.
          However, HK was also envious
          of Darwin's power and title/status.
          Klemp learned how to "play-the-
          game" in order to be released
          early from a mental institution
          in 1970 and flew under the radar
          to have Darwin trust him and
          need him (depend upon him)
          to write EK publications.

          Klemp showed Darwin what he
          wanted to see... a meek and mild
          admirer who was easily controlled.
          This way Darwin could continue
          to have fun and the admiration
          of Eckists while Klemp would run
          the business and write the books.

          Since Klemp is more removed
          from the original truth of Eckankar
          being a scam and a vocation for
          the Twitchells' I do think that he's
          deluded enough to believe the
          hype... to a certain point. Plus,
          Gail's not going to tell him the
          truth anyway because she'd be
          admitting to her participation
          in the scam! BTW- Did you know
          that Harold's daughter, Marion,
          has the middle name of Gail.

          Klemp wants to believe the hype
          because he's not only a narcissist,
          and is vain, but he's also mentally
          unstable.

          He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
          principle. When people write to him
          and say they saw him in their dreams
          yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
          it.... to a degree. The problem is
          that Klemp doesn't remember any
          of it! He's unaware of what's going
          on (on the "INNER") and that's why
          he needs Eckists to "write" to him
          via their snail-mail testimonials.

          So, how does HK rationalize it?
          Well, he's getting what he wants...
          financial security, admiration,
          and he's the boss!

          Eckists get what they want
          and need. Someone to look
          up to, worship, dream of &
          journal, believe in and trust!
          And, they have EK Centers,
          Worship Services, HU Sings,
          Harji potlucks, their books,
          CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
          seminars, invisible and
          immortal ECK Masters and
          those Higher Initiations!

          Prometheus




          Janice wrote:

          Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies. Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these things. Thanks

          Russ wrote:

          Good Day All!

          Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

          I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound current.

          What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

          I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

          I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best teacher.

          So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho. And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

          What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs faall awwaaaay.

          Russ
        • etznab@aol.com
          I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and pieces that are useful to me.I don t know if this is the best way or not to seek enlightenment but it is the only
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            "I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and pieces that are useful to
            me.I don't know if this is the best way or not to seek enlightenment
            but it is the only way I can go at this point."

            What I have found about reading is that readings don't always divulge
            their source(s), author(s) and history(s). In many cases (I have found,
            especially with religions and ancient history) most, if not all of
            those things appear to get embellished, and / or turn into pseudo
            man-made history and religion. If a "compiler" knows the source(s) from
            which they compile(d) and attribute(s) a different source, author,
            history ...? I naturally ask: What does it mean? Does it even convey
            natural events and history?

            The only thing I know to help is exploring and checking the "source(s)"
            of what I read. This is not something I did very much in the beginning
            with Eckankar writings. However, I think it probably one of the sure
            ways to arrive at a more comprehensive truth. Even if it means death of
            an ideal.

            The harder part, in my experience, is finding another more ideal ideal.
            One closer to the actual truth about God, Soul and Spiritual matters
            (Including what is heaven and hell really?). IMO, this - the final
            interpretation - does not have to hinge on the opinions, beliefs,
            writings of others alone. It can hinge on what I alone KNOW to be true.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
            <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 2:13 pm
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand

             
            Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience.  I too
            enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
            for a while after leaving until I found other words to use.  There was
            a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
            the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others.  I would prefer
            to read the originals.  The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
            those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
            if it is beneficial.  The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting.  I
            don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
            or religious group again.  I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
            pieces that are useful to me.  I don't know if this is the best way or
            not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
            point.  I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
            eckankar and since leaving.  It makes me feel less alone in my own
            journey.  It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
            what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development.  The
            one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies.  To me
            this is inexcusable.  I hope through hearing from people like you I
            will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
            another.  I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
            because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
            certain amount of my attention.  I don't think about it continually but
            wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste.  There
            will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
            people for self glorification.  Part of me just can't seem to let go
            because I  see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
            who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies. 
            Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
            I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others.  These
            can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right.  I could
            certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
            things.  Thanks

            --- On Fri, 2/17/12, russrodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

            From: russrodnick <russrodnick@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 3:33 PM

              Good Day All!

            Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

            I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
            missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
            current.

            What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
            it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
            severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

            I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
            (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
            awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
            part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

            I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
            simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
            about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
            only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
            followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
            can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
            believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
            us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
            teacher.

            So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
            leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
            and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
            thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
            And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
            also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

            What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
            faall awwaaaay.

            Russ
          • etznab@aol.com
            Plus, Gail s not going to tell him the truth anyway because she d be admitting to her participation in the scam! According to the contract of sale , I
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
              admitting to her participation
              in the scam!"

              According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
              all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
              possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.

              There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
              don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
              this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.

              I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
              really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
              she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
              same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
              struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
              haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
              TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.

              Etznab

              -----Original Message-----
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

               
              Hello All,
              Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
              Gross and Twitchell
              have taught us about
              the religious con. Many
              Eckists are still learning
              and will never understand
              the lesson. The longer
              one remains under the
              influence the more stuck
              they become. These long-
              time EKists are generally
              identified via impressive
              titles and higher initiations.
              Other than that these three
              were not true teachers and
              certainly weren't masters...
              except at deceit.

              I think that the best lie can
              be told when the teller allows
              himself to believe it as well.
              Plus, of course, a little truth
              mixed in also helps to make
              it more believable.

              Twitchell (and Gail) were the
              two originators of the lie and
              were more aware of the distortions
              than the Twitchells' followers.

              Next came Gross (and Gail
              again). By being once removed
              from the con it appears that
              Darwin did, at first, believe
              some of Twitchell's religious
              myth. But, Gail, of course,
              never believed any of Paul's
              Mastership Stories. She did
              like the attention, to a degree,
              and the friendships she had
              made. Mostly, she likes the
              things that money could/can
              buy.

              Next came Klemp. He despised
              Darwin because of the womanizing,
              flashy egocentric appearance,
              and DG's big spending habits.
              However, HK was also envious
              of Darwin's power and title/status.
              Klemp learned how to "play-the-
              game" in order to be released
              early from a mental institution
              in 1970 and flew under the radar
              to have Darwin trust him and
              need him (depend upon him)
              to write EK publications.

              Klemp showed Darwin what he
              wanted to see... a meek and mild
              admirer who was easily controlled.
              This way Darwin could continue
              to have fun and the admiration
              of Eckists while Klemp would run
              the business and write the books.

              Since Klemp is more removed
              from the original truth of Eckankar
              being a scam and a vocation for
              the Twitchells' I do think that he's
              deluded enough to believe the
              hype... to a certain point. Plus,
              Gail's not going to tell him the
              truth anyway because she'd be
              admitting to her participation
              in the scam! BTW- Did you know
              that Harold's daughter, Marion,
              has the middle name of Gail.

              Klemp wants to believe the hype
              because he's not only a narcissist,
              and is vain, but he's also mentally
              unstable.

              He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
              principle. When people write to him
              and say they saw him in their dreams
              yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
              it.... to a degree. The problem is
              that Klemp doesn't remember any
              of it! He's unaware of what's going
              on (on the "INNER") and that's why
              he needs Eckists to "write" to him
              via their snail-mail testimonials.

              So, how does HK rationalize it?
              Well, he's getting what he wants...
              financial security, admiration,
              and he's the boss!

              Eckists get what they want
              and need. Someone to look
              up to, worship, dream of &
              journal, believe in and trust!
              And, they have EK Centers,
              Worship Services, HU Sings,
              Harji potlucks, their books,
              CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
              seminars, invisible and
              immortal ECK Masters and
              those Higher Initiations!

              Prometheus



              Janice wrote:

              Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
              enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
              for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
              a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
              the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
              to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
              those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
              if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
              don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
              or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
              pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
              not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
              point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
              eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
              journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
              what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
              one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
              this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
              will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
              another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
              because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
              certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
              wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
              will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
              people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
              because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
              who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
              Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
              I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
              can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
              certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
              things. Thanks

              Russ wrote:

              Good Day All!

              Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

              I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
              missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
              current.

              What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
              it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
              severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

              I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
              (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
              awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
              part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

              I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
              simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
              about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
              only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
              followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
              can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
              believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
              us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
              teacher.

              So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
              leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
              and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
              thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
              And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
              also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

              What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
              faall awwaaaay.

              Russ
            • Janice Pfeiffer
              Thank you also etznab.  You said it much better than I ever could.  There is a lot of widom in your words. ... From: etznab@aol.com Subject:
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Thank you also etznab.  You said it much better than I ever could.  There is a lot of widom in your words.

                --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

                From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:19 PM

                 
                "I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and pieces that are useful to
                me.I don't know if this is the best way or not to seek enlightenment
                but it is the only way I can go at this point."

                What I have found about reading is that readings don't always divulge
                their source(s), author(s) and history(s). In many cases (I have found,
                especially with religions and ancient history) most, if not all of
                those things appear to get embellished, and / or turn into pseudo
                man-made history and religion. If a "compiler" knows the source(s) from
                which they compile(d) and attribute(s) a different source, author,
                history ...? I naturally ask: What does it mean? Does it even convey
                natural events and history?

                The only thing I know to help is exploring and checking the "source(s)"
                of what I read. This is not something I did very much in the beginning
                with Eckankar writings. However, I think it probably one of the sure
                ways to arrive at a more comprehensive truth. Even if it means death of
                an ideal.

                The harder part, in my experience, is finding another more ideal ideal.
                One closer to the actual truth about God, Soul and Spiritual matters
                (Including what is heaven and hell really?). IMO, this - the final
                interpretation - does not have to hinge on the opinions, beliefs,
                writings of others alone. It can hinge on what I alone KNOW to be true.

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 2:13 pm
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand

                 
                Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience.  I too
                enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
                for a while after leaving until I found other words to use.  There was
                a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
                the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others.  I would prefer
                to read the originals.  The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
                those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
                if it is beneficial.  The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting.  I
                don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
                or religious group again.  I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
                pieces that are useful to me.  I don't know if this is the best way or
                not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
                point.  I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
                eckankar and since leaving.  It makes me feel less alone in my own
                journey.  It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
                what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development.  The
                one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies.  To me
                this is inexcusable.  I hope through hearing from people like you I
                will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
                another.  I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
                because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
                certain amount of my attention.  I don't think about it continually but
                wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste.  There
                will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
                people for self glorification.  Part of me just can't seem to let go
                because I  see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
                who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies. 
                Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
                I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others.  These
                can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right.  I could
                certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
                things.  Thanks

                --- On Fri, 2/17/12, russrodnick &lt;russrodnick@...&gt; wrote:

                From: russrodnick &lt;russrodnick@...&gt;
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Where I Stand
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 3:33 PM

                  Good Day All!

                Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

                I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
                missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
                current.

                What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
                it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
                severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

                I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
                (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
                awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
                part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

                I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
                simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
                about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
                only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
                followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
                can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
                believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
                us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
                teacher.

                So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
                leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
                and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
                thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
                And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
                also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

                What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
                faall awwaaaay.

                Russ

              • Janice Pfeiffer
                I was reading Minnesota s requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read, members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
                   
                  I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier time maintianing their status there.
                   
                  Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members?  Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country members.
                  --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:

                  From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                  Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM

                   
                  "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
                  admitting to her participation
                  in the scam!"

                  According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
                  all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
                  possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.

                  There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
                  don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
                  this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.

                  I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
                  really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
                  she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
                  same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
                  struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
                  haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
                  TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.

                  Etznab

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                  <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

                   
                  Hello All,
                  Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
                  Gross and Twitchell
                  have taught us about
                  the religious con. Many
                  Eckists are still learning
                  and will never understand
                  the lesson. The longer
                  one remains under the
                  influence the more stuck
                  they become. These long-
                  time EKists are generally
                  identified via impressive
                  titles and higher initiations.
                  Other than that these three
                  were not true teachers and
                  certainly weren't masters...
                  except at deceit.

                  I think that the best lie can
                  be told when the teller allows
                  himself to believe it as well.
                  Plus, of course, a little truth
                  mixed in also helps to make
                  it more believable.

                  Twitchell (and Gail) were the
                  two originators of the lie and
                  were more aware of the distortions
                  than the Twitchells' followers.

                  Next came Gross (and Gail
                  again). By being once removed
                  from the con it appears that
                  Darwin did, at first, believe
                  some of Twitchell's religious
                  myth. But, Gail, of course,
                  never believed any of Paul's
                  Mastership Stories. She did
                  like the attention, to a degree,
                  and the friendships she had
                  made. Mostly, she likes the
                  things that money could/can
                  buy.

                  Next came Klemp. He despised
                  Darwin because of the womanizing,
                  flashy egocentric appearance,
                  and DG's big spending habits.
                  However, HK was also envious
                  of Darwin's power and title/status.
                  Klemp learned how to "play-the-
                  game" in order to be released
                  early from a mental institution
                  in 1970 and flew under the radar
                  to have Darwin trust him and
                  need him (depend upon him)
                  to write EK publications.

                  Klemp showed Darwin what he
                  wanted to see... a meek and mild
                  admirer who was easily controlled.
                  This way Darwin could continue
                  to have fun and the admiration
                  of Eckists while Klemp would run
                  the business and write the books.

                  Since Klemp is more removed
                  from the original truth of Eckankar
                  being a scam and a vocation for
                  the Twitchells' I do think that he's
                  deluded enough to believe the
                  hype... to a certain point. Plus,
                  Gail's not going to tell him the
                  truth anyway because she'd be
                  admitting to her participation
                  in the scam! BTW- Did you know
                  that Harold's daughter, Marion,
                  has the middle name of Gail.

                  Klemp wants to believe the hype
                  because he's not only a narcissist,
                  and is vain, but he's also mentally
                  unstable.

                  He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
                  principle. When people write to him
                  and say they saw him in their dreams
                  yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
                  it.... to a degree. The problem is
                  that Klemp doesn't remember any
                  of it! He's unaware of what's going
                  on (on the "INNER") and that's why
                  he needs Eckists to "write" to him
                  via their snail-mail testimonials.

                  So, how does HK rationalize it?
                  Well, he's getting what he wants...
                  financial security, admiration,
                  and he's the boss!

                  Eckists get what they want
                  and need. Someone to look
                  up to, worship, dream of &
                  journal, believe in and trust!
                  And, they have EK Centers,
                  Worship Services, HU Sings,
                  Harji potlucks, their books,
                  CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
                  seminars, invisible and
                  immortal ECK Masters and
                  those Higher Initiations!

                  Prometheus

                  Janice wrote:

                  Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
                  enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
                  for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
                  a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
                  the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
                  to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
                  those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
                  if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
                  don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
                  or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
                  pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
                  not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
                  point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
                  eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
                  journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
                  what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
                  one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
                  this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
                  will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
                  another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
                  because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
                  certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
                  wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
                  will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
                  people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
                  because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
                  who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
                  Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
                  I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
                  can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
                  certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
                  things. Thanks

                  Russ wrote:

                  Good Day All!

                  Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

                  I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
                  missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
                  current.

                  What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
                  it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
                  severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

                  I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
                  (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
                  awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
                  part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

                  I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
                  simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
                  about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
                  only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
                  followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
                  can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
                  believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
                  us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
                  teacher.

                  So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
                  leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
                  and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
                  thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
                  And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
                  also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

                  What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
                  faall awwaaaay.

                  Russ

                • etznab@aol.com
                  Try researching the definition for corporation sole. A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ( sole ) incorporated office, occupied by a
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 17, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Try researching the definition for corporation sole.

                    A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
                    incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

                    My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
                    Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
                    this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
                    is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
                    can in any way trump the single individual in charge.

                    Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
                    that first. I think they can, but are not sure.

                    Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
                    One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
                    with legal voting rights.

                    Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
                    the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 5:32 pm
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

                     
                    I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the
                    rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal
                    regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read,
                    members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of
                    directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a
                    chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board
                    of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials
                    can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
                     
                    I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of
                    Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining
                    nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view
                    of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that
                    it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier
                    time maintianing their status there.
                     
                    Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members? 
                    Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that
                    would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I
                    mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country
                    members.
                    --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:


                    From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM

                      "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
                    admitting to her participation
                    in the scam!"

                    According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
                    all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
                    possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.

                    There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
                    don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
                    this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.

                    I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
                    really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
                    she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
                    same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
                    struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
                    haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
                    TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.

                    Etznab

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                    <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

                     
                    Hello All,
                    Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
                    Gross and Twitchell
                    have taught us about
                    the religious con. Many
                    Eckists are still learning
                    and will never understand
                    the lesson. The longer
                    one remains under the
                    influence the more stuck
                    they become. These long-
                    time EKists are generally
                    identified via impressive
                    titles and higher initiations.
                    Other than that these three
                    were not true teachers and
                    certainly weren't masters...
                    except at deceit.

                    I think that the best lie can
                    be told when the teller allows
                    himself to believe it as well.
                    Plus, of course, a little truth
                    mixed in also helps to make
                    it more believable.

                    Twitchell (and Gail) were the
                    two originators of the lie and
                    were more aware of the distortions
                    than the Twitchells' followers.

                    Next came Gross (and Gail
                    again). By being once removed
                    from the con it appears that
                    Darwin did, at first, believe
                    some of Twitchell's religious
                    myth. But, Gail, of course,
                    never believed any of Paul's
                    Mastership Stories. She did
                    like the attention, to a degree,
                    and the friendships she had
                    made. Mostly, she likes the
                    things that money could/can
                    buy.

                    Next came Klemp. He despised
                    Darwin because of the womanizing,
                    flashy egocentric appearance,
                    and DG's big spending habits.
                    However, HK was also envious
                    of Darwin's power and title/status.
                    Klemp learned how to "play-the-
                    game" in order to be released
                    early from a mental institution
                    in 1970 and flew under the radar
                    to have Darwin trust him and
                    need him (depend upon him)
                    to write EK publications.

                    Klemp showed Darwin what he
                    wanted to see... a meek and mild
                    admirer who was easily controlled.
                    This way Darwin could continue
                    to have fun and the admiration
                    of Eckists while Klemp would run
                    the business and write the books.

                    Since Klemp is more removed
                    from the original truth of Eckankar
                    being a scam and a vocation for
                    the Twitchells' I do think that he's
                    deluded enough to believe the
                    hype... to a certain point. Plus,
                    Gail's not going to tell him the
                    truth anyway because she'd be
                    admitting to her participation
                    in the scam! BTW- Did you know
                    that Harold's daughter, Marion,
                    has the middle name of Gail.

                    Klemp wants to believe the hype
                    because he's not only a narcissist,
                    and is vain, but he's also mentally
                    unstable.

                    He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
                    principle. When people write to him
                    and say they saw him in their dreams
                    yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
                    it.... to a degree. The problem is
                    that Klemp doesn't remember any
                    of it! He's unaware of what's going
                    on (on the "INNER") and that's why
                    he needs Eckists to "write" to him
                    via their snail-mail testimonials.

                    So, how does HK rationalize it?
                    Well, he's getting what he wants...
                    financial security, admiration,
                    and he's the boss!

                    Eckists get what they want
                    and need. Someone to look
                    up to, worship, dream of &
                    journal, believe in and trust!
                    And, they have EK Centers,
                    Worship Services, HU Sings,
                    Harji potlucks, their books,
                    CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
                    seminars, invisible and
                    immortal ECK Masters and
                    those Higher Initiations!

                    Prometheus

                    Janice wrote:

                    Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
                    enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
                    for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
                    a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
                    the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
                    to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
                    those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
                    if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
                    don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
                    or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
                    pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
                    not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
                    point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
                    eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
                    journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
                    what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
                    one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
                    this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
                    will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
                    another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
                    because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
                    certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
                    wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
                    will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
                    people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
                    because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
                    who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
                    Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
                    I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
                    can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
                    certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
                    things. Thanks

                    Russ wrote:

                    Good Day All!

                    Take what is good and leave the rest behind.

                    I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
                    missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
                    current.

                    What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
                    it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
                    severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.

                    I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
                    (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
                    awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
                    part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.

                    I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
                    simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
                    about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
                    only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
                    followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
                    can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
                    believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
                    us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
                    teacher.

                    So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
                    leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
                    and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
                    thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
                    And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
                    also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.

                    What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
                    faall awwaaaay.

                    Russ
                  • etznab18
                    Page search for the word amended here. http://web.archive.org/web/20091130045925/http://darwingrosstruthfile.homestead.com/DGTFitem3.html If link doesn t work,
                    Message 9 of 15 , Feb 18, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Page search for the word amended here.

                      http://web.archive.org/web/20091130045925/http://darwingrosstruthfile.homestead.com/DGTFitem3.html

                      If link doesn't work, try this one.

                      http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read, members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
                      >  
                      > I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier time maintianing their status there.
                      >  
                      > Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members?  Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country members.
                      > --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@... <etznab@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > From: etznab@... <etznab@...>
                      > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
                      > admitting to her participation
                      > in the scam!"
                      >
                      > According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
                      > all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
                      > possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.
                      >
                      > There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
                      > don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
                      > this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.
                      >
                      > I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
                      > really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
                      > she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
                      > same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
                      > struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
                      > haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
                      > TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.
                      >
                      > Etznab
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                      > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
                      > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                      >
                      >  
                      > Hello All,
                      > Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
                      > Gross and Twitchell
                      > have taught us about
                      > the religious con. Many
                      > Eckists are still learning
                      > and will never understand
                      > the lesson. The longer
                      > one remains under the
                      > influence the more stuck
                      > they become. These long-
                      > time EKists are generally
                      > identified via impressive
                      > titles and higher initiations.
                      > Other than that these three
                      > were not true teachers and
                      > certainly weren't masters...
                      > except at deceit.
                      >
                      > I think that the best lie can
                      > be told when the teller allows
                      > himself to believe it as well.
                      > Plus, of course, a little truth
                      > mixed in also helps to make
                      > it more believable.
                      >
                      > Twitchell (and Gail) were the
                      > two originators of the lie and
                      > were more aware of the distortions
                      > than the Twitchells' followers.
                      >
                      > Next came Gross (and Gail
                      > again). By being once removed
                      > from the con it appears that
                      > Darwin did, at first, believe
                      > some of Twitchell's religious
                      > myth. But, Gail, of course,
                      > never believed any of Paul's
                      > Mastership Stories. She did
                      > like the attention, to a degree,
                      > and the friendships she had
                      > made. Mostly, she likes the
                      > things that money could/can
                      > buy.
                      >
                      > Next came Klemp. He despised
                      > Darwin because of the womanizing,
                      > flashy egocentric appearance,
                      > and DG's big spending habits.
                      > However, HK was also envious
                      > of Darwin's power and title/status.
                      > Klemp learned how to "play-the-
                      > game" in order to be released
                      > early from a mental institution
                      > in 1970 and flew under the radar
                      > to have Darwin trust him and
                      > need him (depend upon him)
                      > to write EK publications.
                      >
                      > Klemp showed Darwin what he
                      > wanted to see... a meek and mild
                      > admirer who was easily controlled.
                      > This way Darwin could continue
                      > to have fun and the admiration
                      > of Eckists while Klemp would run
                      > the business and write the books.
                      >
                      > Since Klemp is more removed
                      > from the original truth of Eckankar
                      > being a scam and a vocation for
                      > the Twitchells' I do think that he's
                      > deluded enough to believe the
                      > hype... to a certain point. Plus,
                      > Gail's not going to tell him the
                      > truth anyway because she'd be
                      > admitting to her participation
                      > in the scam! BTW- Did you know
                      > that Harold's daughter, Marion,
                      > has the middle name of Gail.
                      >
                      > Klemp wants to believe the hype
                      > because he's not only a narcissist,
                      > and is vain, but he's also mentally
                      > unstable.
                      >
                      > He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
                      > principle. When people write to him
                      > and say they saw him in their dreams
                      > yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
                      > it.... to a degree. The problem is
                      > that Klemp doesn't remember any
                      > of it! He's unaware of what's going
                      > on (on the "INNER") and that's why
                      > he needs Eckists to "write" to him
                      > via their snail-mail testimonials.
                      >
                      > So, how does HK rationalize it?
                      > Well, he's getting what he wants...
                      > financial security, admiration,
                      > and he's the boss!
                      >
                      > Eckists get what they want
                      > and need. Someone to look
                      > up to, worship, dream of &
                      > journal, believe in and trust!
                      > And, they have EK Centers,
                      > Worship Services, HU Sings,
                      > Harji potlucks, their books,
                      > CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
                      > seminars, invisible and
                      > immortal ECK Masters and
                      > those Higher Initiations!
                      >
                      > Prometheus
                      >
                      > Janice wrote:
                      >
                      > Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
                      > enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
                      > for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
                      > a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
                      > the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
                      > to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
                      > those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
                      > if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
                      > don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
                      > or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
                      > pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
                      > not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
                      > point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
                      > eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
                      > journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
                      > what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
                      > one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
                      > this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
                      > will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
                      > another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
                      > because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
                      > certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
                      > wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
                      > will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
                      > people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
                      > because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
                      > who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
                      > Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
                      > I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
                      > can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
                      > certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
                      > things. Thanks
                      >
                      > Russ wrote:
                      >
                      > Good Day All!
                      >
                      > Take what is good and leave the rest behind.
                      >
                      > I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
                      > missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
                      > current.
                      >
                      > What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
                      > it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
                      > severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.
                      >
                      > I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
                      > (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
                      > awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
                      > part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.
                      >
                      > I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
                      > simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
                      > about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
                      > only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
                      > followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
                      > can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
                      > believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
                      > us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
                      > teacher.
                      >
                      > So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
                      > leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
                      > and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
                      > thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
                      > And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
                      > also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.
                      >
                      > What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
                      > faall awwaaaay.
                      >
                      > Russ
                      >
                    • etznab18
                      While on the link, also search for the word conspir - that will bring up all the words containing it and the places where they appear. What was that personal
                      Message 10 of 15 , Feb 18, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        While on the link, also search for the word "conspir" - that will bring up all the words containing it and the places where they appear.

                        What was that personal e-mail sent to Prometheus recently that got posted here? Didn't it presume something about a group of people, whatever, doing something.

                        I have to check if the word conspired was there.

                        OK. Just adding links and noting information for reference purposes.

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Page search for the word amended here.
                        >
                        > http://web.archive.org/web/20091130045925/http://darwingrosstruthfile.homestead.com/DGTFitem3.html
                        >
                        > If link doesn't work, try this one.
                        >
                        > http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme
                        >
                        > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read, members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
                        > >  
                        > > I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier time maintianing their status there.
                        > >  
                        > > Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members?  Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country members.
                        > > --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@ <etznab@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > From: etznab@ <etznab@>
                        > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >  
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
                        > > admitting to her participation
                        > > in the scam!"
                        > >
                        > > According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
                        > > all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
                        > > possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.
                        > >
                        > > There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
                        > > don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
                        > > this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.
                        > >
                        > > I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
                        > > really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
                        > > she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
                        > > same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
                        > > struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
                        > > haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
                        > > TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.
                        > >
                        > > Etznab
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                        > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                        > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
                        > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                        > >
                        > >  
                        > > Hello All,
                        > > Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
                        > > Gross and Twitchell
                        > > have taught us about
                        > > the religious con. Many
                        > > Eckists are still learning
                        > > and will never understand
                        > > the lesson. The longer
                        > > one remains under the
                        > > influence the more stuck
                        > > they become. These long-
                        > > time EKists are generally
                        > > identified via impressive
                        > > titles and higher initiations.
                        > > Other than that these three
                        > > were not true teachers and
                        > > certainly weren't masters...
                        > > except at deceit.
                        > >
                        > > I think that the best lie can
                        > > be told when the teller allows
                        > > himself to believe it as well.
                        > > Plus, of course, a little truth
                        > > mixed in also helps to make
                        > > it more believable.
                        > >
                        > > Twitchell (and Gail) were the
                        > > two originators of the lie and
                        > > were more aware of the distortions
                        > > than the Twitchells' followers.
                        > >
                        > > Next came Gross (and Gail
                        > > again). By being once removed
                        > > from the con it appears that
                        > > Darwin did, at first, believe
                        > > some of Twitchell's religious
                        > > myth. But, Gail, of course,
                        > > never believed any of Paul's
                        > > Mastership Stories. She did
                        > > like the attention, to a degree,
                        > > and the friendships she had
                        > > made. Mostly, she likes the
                        > > things that money could/can
                        > > buy.
                        > >
                        > > Next came Klemp. He despised
                        > > Darwin because of the womanizing,
                        > > flashy egocentric appearance,
                        > > and DG's big spending habits.
                        > > However, HK was also envious
                        > > of Darwin's power and title/status.
                        > > Klemp learned how to "play-the-
                        > > game" in order to be released
                        > > early from a mental institution
                        > > in 1970 and flew under the radar
                        > > to have Darwin trust him and
                        > > need him (depend upon him)
                        > > to write EK publications.
                        > >
                        > > Klemp showed Darwin what he
                        > > wanted to see... a meek and mild
                        > > admirer who was easily controlled.
                        > > This way Darwin could continue
                        > > to have fun and the admiration
                        > > of Eckists while Klemp would run
                        > > the business and write the books.
                        > >
                        > > Since Klemp is more removed
                        > > from the original truth of Eckankar
                        > > being a scam and a vocation for
                        > > the Twitchells' I do think that he's
                        > > deluded enough to believe the
                        > > hype... to a certain point. Plus,
                        > > Gail's not going to tell him the
                        > > truth anyway because she'd be
                        > > admitting to her participation
                        > > in the scam! BTW- Did you know
                        > > that Harold's daughter, Marion,
                        > > has the middle name of Gail.
                        > >
                        > > Klemp wants to believe the hype
                        > > because he's not only a narcissist,
                        > > and is vain, but he's also mentally
                        > > unstable.
                        > >
                        > > He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
                        > > principle. When people write to him
                        > > and say they saw him in their dreams
                        > > yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
                        > > it.... to a degree. The problem is
                        > > that Klemp doesn't remember any
                        > > of it! He's unaware of what's going
                        > > on (on the "INNER") and that's why
                        > > he needs Eckists to "write" to him
                        > > via their snail-mail testimonials.
                        > >
                        > > So, how does HK rationalize it?
                        > > Well, he's getting what he wants...
                        > > financial security, admiration,
                        > > and he's the boss!
                        > >
                        > > Eckists get what they want
                        > > and need. Someone to look
                        > > up to, worship, dream of &
                        > > journal, believe in and trust!
                        > > And, they have EK Centers,
                        > > Worship Services, HU Sings,
                        > > Harji potlucks, their books,
                        > > CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
                        > > seminars, invisible and
                        > > immortal ECK Masters and
                        > > those Higher Initiations!
                        > >
                        > > Prometheus
                        > >
                        > > Janice wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
                        > > enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
                        > > for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
                        > > a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
                        > > the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
                        > > to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
                        > > those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
                        > > if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
                        > > don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
                        > > or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
                        > > pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
                        > > not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
                        > > point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
                        > > eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
                        > > journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
                        > > what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
                        > > one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
                        > > this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
                        > > will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
                        > > another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
                        > > because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
                        > > certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
                        > > wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
                        > > will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
                        > > people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
                        > > because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
                        > > who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
                        > > Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
                        > > I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
                        > > can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
                        > > certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
                        > > things. Thanks
                        > >
                        > > Russ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Good Day All!
                        > >
                        > > Take what is good and leave the rest behind.
                        > >
                        > > I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
                        > > missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
                        > > current.
                        > >
                        > > What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
                        > > it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
                        > > severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.
                        > >
                        > > I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
                        > > (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
                        > > awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
                        > > part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.
                        > >
                        > > I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
                        > > simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
                        > > about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
                        > > only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
                        > > followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
                        > > can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
                        > > believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
                        > > us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
                        > > teacher.
                        > >
                        > > So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
                        > > leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
                        > > and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
                        > > thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
                        > > And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
                        > > also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.
                        > >
                        > > What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
                        > > faall awwaaaay.
                        > >
                        > > Russ
                        > >
                        >
                      • etznab18
                        One revision to add. I think it s message 6210 that I mentioned. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/6120 Page search for the word
                        Message 11 of 15 , Feb 18, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          One revision to add. I think it's message 6210 that I mentioned.

                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous/message/6120

                          Page search for the word group in that message and compare with what Darwin Gross said happened.

                          http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme

                          For me, personally, I'm just checking to see if any substance to this idea about people knowing things, but doing other.

                          In a nutshell, I sort of imagine Eckankar (the org. structure, etc.) was faced with imminent implosion in the 1980s. Unless power were consolidated under a single individual (or core group of people) there would have been endless bickering / fighting with no real fixes put in place, imo. Sort of like the American two-party system negating and canceling out eachother.

                          By 1987 when I joined Eckankar, the structure had already changed. Paul's books / files had been sold (by Gail to Eckankar, c/o Darwin Gross, whatever), some destroyed, some key people in the beginning of Eckankar had left the org., or were sent packing, I mean Darwin Gross was long gone, the books were being revised and edited further, all these things and more were done before I even became a member. And for the past five or so years I've been HAVING FUN [NOT] trying to find out so much of that past history on my own (helped by others - including ESA). And to my credit I've compiled user-friendly files in timeline format so I can target an area, a time period, and facilitate a deeper review by looking at what has already been given, written, etc.). Lots of people have helped with this, whether knowing or not, including ESA. Much of the trivia out in public domain I've compiled and done further research on (I don't know of many other people who have done so in the same fashion, or to the same extent. There is at least one other person I know about ...)

                          Having documents and book information, etc. helps when discussing things ... and so I don't have to come across as a heretic, or (so to speak) have my battleship blown out of the water by anybody and everybody who simply says: "Yeah right. That's just heresy. You have no proof." To the contrary. this stuff - numerous files - helps to keep me up to speed about the contradictions and issues, etc. Moreso, it helps to have a format where I can locate the information quickly and easily (like when discussing things here, or elsewhere). And when new information is found I can update the older material.

                          This idea about a covert group, or groups, doing things that led to a change in Eckankar "structure" (including the history and writings) is intriguing to me, to say the least. I've given up doing as much collecting of information as I used to about all this stuff, nevertheless, I'm starting to review once again that pivotal era of the 1980s just to see what more (anything new) can be learned.

                          Thanks to everyone for sharing, discussing, looking at this stuff again and again. For letting me (and others) belong to ESA. It helps to fill in the missing pieces, but not everybody wants (or likes) to talk about this stuff. maybe it's just not FUN enough :)

                          Etznab

                          P.S.

                          "He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the
                          present controls the past." - George Orwell, 1984

                          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > While on the link, also search for the word "conspir" - that will bring up all the words containing it and the places where they appear.
                          >
                          > What was that personal e-mail sent to Prometheus recently that got posted here? Didn't it presume something about a group of people, whatever, doing something.
                          >
                          > I have to check if the word conspired was there.
                          >
                          > OK. Just adding links and noting information for reference purposes.
                          >
                          > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Page search for the word amended here.
                          > >
                          > > http://web.archive.org/web/20091130045925/http://darwingrosstruthfile.homestead.com/DGTFitem3.html
                          > >
                          > > If link doesn't work, try this one.
                          > >
                          > > http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme
                          > >
                          > > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I was reading Minnesota's requirements for a nonprofit org since the rules for such are governed by state laws except for some federal regulations concerning tax exemptions.  According to what I read, members of a nonprofit org have a right to vote on the board of directors.  I don't recall eckankar ever giving card toting members a chance to make any decisions much less vote on who occupies the board of directors.  I also read that the board members and other officials can change the by laws of the org as they see fit. 
                          > > >  
                          > > > I was reading about such things because I wondered if the state of Minnesota was especial beneficial as far as gaining and maintaining nonprofit status.  I am thinking that they have a lot more casual view of nonprofit orgs than maybe most others.  So maybe it is not just that it is familiar territory for Klemp.  They may actually have an easier time maintianing their status there.
                          > > >  
                          > > > Any comments about members being allowed to vote on the board members?  Can you imagine eckankar letting members do that?  I wonder if that would pertain to all members or just local members?  I guess what I mean is if that would pertain to out of state and or out of country members.
                          > > > --- On Fri, 2/17/12, etznab@ <etznab@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > From: etznab@ <etznab@>
                          > > > Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                          > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 10:29 PM
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >  
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > "Plus, Gail's not going to tell him the truth anyway because she'd be
                          > > > admitting to her participation
                          > > > in the scam!"
                          > > >
                          > > > According to the "contract of sale", I believe, Gail was released from
                          > > > all liability for the writings of Paul Twitchell. Therefore it is
                          > > > possible that Gail is not legally liable for any of it.
                          > > >
                          > > > There was a copy of the contract of sale on the Internet once, but I
                          > > > don't believe it's available any more. I do remember something about
                          > > > this, though. As I read the document when it was public domain.
                          > > >
                          > > > I do see your point about Gail not admitting much. However, I really,
                          > > > really, really wish she would write a tell-all book some day. I think
                          > > > she could make a fortune on something like this. Really I do! At the
                          > > > same time, I also wonder about if any other "legal" agreements were
                          > > > struck between Gail and others that are not available to the public. I
                          > > > haven't seen any, but I do wonder if Gail ever agreed (in writing) NOT
                          > > > TO do something like a tell-all book. Not now. Not ever.
                          > > >
                          > > > Etznab
                          > > >
                          > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@>
                          > > > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                          > > > <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 4:11 pm
                          > > > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand
                          > > >
                          > > >  
                          > > > Hello All,
                          > > > Interesting. Yes, Klemp,
                          > > > Gross and Twitchell
                          > > > have taught us about
                          > > > the religious con. Many
                          > > > Eckists are still learning
                          > > > and will never understand
                          > > > the lesson. The longer
                          > > > one remains under the
                          > > > influence the more stuck
                          > > > they become. These long-
                          > > > time EKists are generally
                          > > > identified via impressive
                          > > > titles and higher initiations.
                          > > > Other than that these three
                          > > > were not true teachers and
                          > > > certainly weren't masters...
                          > > > except at deceit.
                          > > >
                          > > > I think that the best lie can
                          > > > be told when the teller allows
                          > > > himself to believe it as well.
                          > > > Plus, of course, a little truth
                          > > > mixed in also helps to make
                          > > > it more believable.
                          > > >
                          > > > Twitchell (and Gail) were the
                          > > > two originators of the lie and
                          > > > were more aware of the distortions
                          > > > than the Twitchells' followers.
                          > > >
                          > > > Next came Gross (and Gail
                          > > > again). By being once removed
                          > > > from the con it appears that
                          > > > Darwin did, at first, believe
                          > > > some of Twitchell's religious
                          > > > myth. But, Gail, of course,
                          > > > never believed any of Paul's
                          > > > Mastership Stories. She did
                          > > > like the attention, to a degree,
                          > > > and the friendships she had
                          > > > made. Mostly, she likes the
                          > > > things that money could/can
                          > > > buy.
                          > > >
                          > > > Next came Klemp. He despised
                          > > > Darwin because of the womanizing,
                          > > > flashy egocentric appearance,
                          > > > and DG's big spending habits.
                          > > > However, HK was also envious
                          > > > of Darwin's power and title/status.
                          > > > Klemp learned how to "play-the-
                          > > > game" in order to be released
                          > > > early from a mental institution
                          > > > in 1970 and flew under the radar
                          > > > to have Darwin trust him and
                          > > > need him (depend upon him)
                          > > > to write EK publications.
                          > > >
                          > > > Klemp showed Darwin what he
                          > > > wanted to see... a meek and mild
                          > > > admirer who was easily controlled.
                          > > > This way Darwin could continue
                          > > > to have fun and the admiration
                          > > > of Eckists while Klemp would run
                          > > > the business and write the books.
                          > > >
                          > > > Since Klemp is more removed
                          > > > from the original truth of Eckankar
                          > > > being a scam and a vocation for
                          > > > the Twitchells' I do think that he's
                          > > > deluded enough to believe the
                          > > > hype... to a certain point. Plus,
                          > > > Gail's not going to tell him the
                          > > > truth anyway because she'd be
                          > > > admitting to her participation
                          > > > in the scam! BTW- Did you know
                          > > > that Harold's daughter, Marion,
                          > > > has the middle name of Gail.
                          > > >
                          > > > Klemp wants to believe the hype
                          > > > because he's not only a narcissist,
                          > > > and is vain, but he's also mentally
                          > > > unstable.
                          > > >
                          > > > He a big fan of the "as if" pretend
                          > > > principle. When people write to him
                          > > > and say they saw him in their dreams
                          > > > yada, yada, yada, he actually believes
                          > > > it.... to a degree. The problem is
                          > > > that Klemp doesn't remember any
                          > > > of it! He's unaware of what's going
                          > > > on (on the "INNER") and that's why
                          > > > he needs Eckists to "write" to him
                          > > > via their snail-mail testimonials.
                          > > >
                          > > > So, how does HK rationalize it?
                          > > > Well, he's getting what he wants...
                          > > > financial security, admiration,
                          > > > and he's the boss!
                          > > >
                          > > > Eckists get what they want
                          > > > and need. Someone to look
                          > > > up to, worship, dream of &
                          > > > journal, believe in and trust!
                          > > > And, they have EK Centers,
                          > > > Worship Services, HU Sings,
                          > > > Harji potlucks, their books,
                          > > > CDs, DVDs, jewelry, a Temple,
                          > > > seminars, invisible and
                          > > > immortal ECK Masters and
                          > > > those Higher Initiations!
                          > > >
                          > > > Prometheus
                          > > >
                          > > > Janice wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Thank you Russ for such a good description of your experience. I too
                          > > > enjoyed the sound part of eckankar teachings and I continued to use Hu
                          > > > for a while after leaving until I found other words to use. There was
                          > > > a lot of good stuff in eckankar teachings but for me it was spoiled by
                          > > > the fact that Twitchell stole most of it from others. I would prefer
                          > > > to read the originals. The way I see it is that eckankar can't stop
                          > > > those who leave from using any of the techniques they learned as eckist
                          > > > if it is beneficial. The effect eckankar has had on me is lasting. I
                          > > > don't feel I could ever feel comfortable joining any kind of spiritual
                          > > > or religious group again. I read all kinds of stuff and find bits and
                          > > > pieces that are useful to me. I don't know if this is the best way or
                          > > > not to seek enlightenment but it is the only way I can go at this
                          > > > point. I do so enjoy reading the experiences that others have had in
                          > > > eckankar and since leaving. It makes me feel less alone in my own
                          > > > journey. It can feel lonely when you aren't able to share with others
                          > > > what I consider the most crucial part of my life and development. The
                          > > > one thing I can't forgive or forget about eckankar is the lies. To me
                          > > > this is inexcusable. I hope through hearing from people like you I
                          > > > will be able to put these things more in prospective one way or
                          > > > another. I feel it would be better for me to let go of it all together
                          > > > because in sorting out these things for myself, eckankar still has a
                          > > > certain amount of my attention. I don't think about it continually but
                          > > > wasting any time on eckankar to me some how seems like a waste. There
                          > > > will always be people like Klemp, Twitchell and Gross who use other
                          > > > people for self glorification. Part of me just can't seem to let go
                          > > > because I see eckankar as highly destructive to impressionable people
                          > > > who are looking for truth while eckankar will give them only lies.
                          > > > Sometimes I feel pulled by what is right for me and the idea that since
                          > > > I participated, maybe I have some responsibility toward others. These
                          > > > can be such gray areas when one seeks to do what is right. I could
                          > > > certainly use yours and the ideas of others about how you view these
                          > > > things. Thanks
                          > > >
                          > > > Russ wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Good Day All!
                          > > >
                          > > > Take what is good and leave the rest behind.
                          > > >
                          > > > I naturally gravitated toward the part of Eckankar that had been
                          > > > missing in my spiritual practice and that something was the sound
                          > > > current.
                          > > >
                          > > > What I did was put faith in the lem though in my heart I know/knew that
                          > > > it was a crutch. I even stayed in for 33 years. I was afraid I would be
                          > > > severed from the sound current if I left. Absurd really.
                          > > >
                          > > > I came to my senses and I can say that the practice of chanting hu
                          > > > (there are many other words that are effective too}established in me an
                          > > > awareness of sound and light. So, I now have a certain beingness, a
                          > > > part of me that knows about this connection to the Higher Self.
                          > > >
                          > > > I also find myself wishing that PT had honored his real teachers and
                          > > > simply wrote his books as his own opinion. I don't know or really care
                          > > > about his motives. I believe that truth can be discovered anywhere but
                          > > > only with a quality of sincerety. Every teacher is limited but
                          > > > followers pull a teacher/leader into a position of authority. Not many
                          > > > can resist the pull. We humans under the pull of illusion have to
                          > > > believe that something is the greatest when in fact it might be new to
                          > > > us but pretty ordinary otherwise. Experience is indeed the best
                          > > > teacher.
                          > > >
                          > > > So, yea I got a lot out of eckankar but guess what? I got more out of
                          > > > leaving it and shaking off the dependency. I feel more empowered, real
                          > > > and clear about my reality. So, the final test of a disiple(sp) is to
                          > > > thank the teacher and move on. That's the honorable thing to do. imho.
                          > > > And avoid the master-chela trap and counsel others when possible to
                          > > > also avoid this trap. The power and love are within you.
                          > > >
                          > > > What I do know is that what is REAL stands the test of time. Let the bs
                          > > > faall awwaaaay.
                          > > >
                          > > > Russ
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • prometheus_973
                          Hello Etznab and All, Klemp had the corporate by-laws for Eckankar rewritten after Darwin was booted. Therefore, the President of Eckankar was no longer the
                          Message 12 of 15 , Feb 19, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello Etznab and All,
                            Klemp had the corporate
                            by-laws for Eckankar
                            rewritten after Darwin
                            was booted. Therefore,
                            the President of Eckankar
                            was no longer the head
                            of the org and of the
                            church.

                            Darwin screwed up by
                            not stating on stage or
                            in print that he, as the
                            Mahanta, was still the
                            head of Eckankar and
                            that Harold, as LEM, was
                            overseeing other areas.
                            Upon acceptance Harold
                            would not have had the
                            legal ground to present
                            a challenge. In Darwin's
                            day the ECK Board, 8th
                            initiates, still had a real
                            voice and vote. The by-laws
                            were written as such.
                            And, IMO, the Board (8ths)
                            would never have sided
                            with a new 12th initiate
                            LEM over the 14th initiate
                            Mahanta.

                            BTW- When Twitchell
                            first defined the LEM
                            he made no mention
                            of the Mahanta. It wasn't
                            until 1969 that he created
                            the Mahanta title and
                            rewrites began. Just
                            look at the definition
                            for LEM in, even, HK's
                            first Lexicon. There's
                            no mention of the
                            "Mahanta" in the body
                            of the definition. At
                            the bottom it states:
                            (see Mahanta).

                            And, Klemp did his own
                            revisions by stating that
                            even though the LEM is
                            synonymous with being
                            the Mahanta... that the
                            LEM is "in training" until
                            he can become a "Full"
                            14th Mahanta. Why did
                            Klemp feel this additional
                            clarification as necessary?
                            It's because Darwin was
                            the LEM/Mahanta! Therefore
                            Klemp had to make it seem
                            that he was either on the
                            same Initiation Level or
                            Higher than Gross. After
                            all, how could a new 12th
                            LEM have the Hierarchal
                            authority to unseat a "Full"
                            14th (or higher) Mahanta
                            otherwise? He wouldn't
                            and there lies the rub!
                            Klemp's ekplanation
                            is called "tying up loose
                            ends."


                            Anyway, HK now has
                            "sole" authority to hire
                            and fire and to make
                            all decisions. Peter Skelsky,
                            the President of Eckankar,
                            works for Klemp and
                            runs the business side
                            of Eckankar.

                            The ECK Board members,
                            also, sit at Klemp's pleasure
                            and serve as a sounding
                            board for him. He merely
                            considers their opinions
                            but is under no obligation
                            to follow anything they
                            might suggest or vote
                            upon. They simply keep
                            him up-to-date and
                            informed on various
                            issues and assignments.

                            As Above, So Below.

                            The chartered Satsang
                            Societies are set up
                            in the same manner
                            as the ECK Board at
                            the ESC and follow
                            hierarchal procedure.
                            Generally, however,
                            the President of the
                            Satsang Society doesn't
                            have nearly as much
                            authority or oversight
                            duties as does their
                            counterpart, at the ESC,
                            Peter Skelsky. Then,
                            again, some RESAs
                            aren't very "hands on"
                            and tend to designate
                            more responsibility to
                            others.

                            The RESAs, basically,
                            have been given sole
                            church authority over
                            those Eckists within
                            their regional areas.
                            They hire, fire, promote
                            and oversee the local
                            operations and mission
                            of the Satsang Society
                            based upon field-tested
                            Guidelines supplied to
                            them by the ESC. Of course,
                            ECK-ankar is a hierarchy
                            and even RESAs answer
                            to higher ups at the ESC
                            assigned (by HK or his
                            emissaries) to oversee
                            them. Harold is the "sole"
                            piece of crap in charge
                            of this minor New Age
                            religious con and cult.

                            Prometheus


                            etznab@... wrote:

                            Try researching the definition for corporation sole.

                            A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
                            incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]

                            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

                            My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
                            Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
                            this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
                            is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
                            can in any way trump the single individual in charge.

                            Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
                            that first. I think they can, but are not sure.

                            Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
                            One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
                            with legal voting rights.

                            Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
                            the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.
                          • etznab@aol.com
                            And, IMO, the Board (8ths) would never have sided with a new 12th initiate LEM over the 14th initiate Mahanta. I remember reading something about four 8th
                            Message 13 of 15 , Feb 19, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              "And, IMO, the Board (8ths) would never have sided with a new 12th
                              initiate LEM over the 14th initiate Mahanta."

                              I remember reading something about four 8th initiate grandmothers, or
                              something. Let me see.

                              (7) Four "eighth initiates" demanded Harold takeover the Eckankar
                              Corporation in a letter to certain Trustees (concealed from myself,
                              Alan Nichols and Bob Brant). The letter was signed by four women, most
                              or all of whom were grandmothers. It was used by the conspirators to
                              cover-up the takeover power grab.

                              http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme

                              Just thought that was relevant here.

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                              <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Sun, Feb 19, 2012 1:19 pm
                              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Where I Stand

                               
                              Hello Etznab and All,
                              Klemp had the corporate
                              by-laws for Eckankar
                              rewritten after Darwin
                              was booted. Therefore,
                              the President of Eckankar
                              was no longer the head
                              of the org and of the
                              church.

                              Darwin screwed up by
                              not stating on stage or
                              in print that he, as the
                              Mahanta, was still the
                              head of Eckankar and
                              that Harold, as LEM, was
                              overseeing other areas.
                              Upon acceptance Harold
                              would not have had the
                              legal ground to present
                              a challenge. In Darwin's
                              day the ECK Board, 8th
                              initiates, still had a real
                              voice and vote. The by-laws
                              were written as such.
                              And, IMO, the Board (8ths)
                              would never have sided
                              with a new 12th initiate
                              LEM over the 14th initiate
                              Mahanta.

                              BTW- When Twitchell
                              first defined the LEM
                              he made no mention
                              of the Mahanta. It wasn't
                              until 1969 that the
                              rewrites began. Just
                              look at the definition
                              for LEM in, even, HK's
                              first Lexicon.

                              At the bottom it states:
                              (see Mahanta). And, Klemp
                              did his own revisions by
                              stating that even though
                              it states that the LEM is
                              synonymous with being
                              the Mahanta... that the
                              LEM is "in training" until
                              he can be a "Full" 14th
                              Mahanta.

                              Anyway, HK now has
                              "sole" authority to hire
                              and fire and to make
                              all decisions. Peter Skelsky,
                              the President of Eckankar,
                              works for Klemp and
                              runs the business side
                              of Eckankar.

                              The ECK Board members,
                              also, sit at Klemp's pleasure
                              and serve as a sounding
                              board for him. He merely
                              considers their opinions
                              but is under no obligation
                              to follow anything they
                              might suggest or vote
                              upon. They simply keep
                              him up-to-date and
                              informed on various
                              issues and assignments.

                              As Above, So Below.

                              The chartered Satsang
                              Societies are set up
                              in the same manner
                              as the ECK Board at
                              the ESC and follow
                              hierarchal procedure.
                              Generally, however,
                              the President of the
                              Satsang Society doesn't
                              have nearly as much
                              authority or oversight
                              duties as does Peter
                              Skelsky. Then, again,
                              some RESAs aren't very
                              "hands on" and tend
                              to designate more
                              responsibility to others.

                              The RESAs, basically,
                              have been given sole
                              church authority over
                              those Eckists within
                              their regional areas.
                              They hire, fire, promote
                              and oversee the local
                              operations and mission
                              of the Satsang Society
                              based upon field-tested
                              Guidelines supplied to
                              them by the ESC. Of course,
                              ECK-ankar is a hierarchy
                              and even RESAs answer
                              to higher ups at the ESC
                              assigned (by HK or his
                              emissaries) to oversee
                              them. Harold is the "sole"
                              piece of crap in charge
                              of this minor New Age
                              religious con and cult.

                              Prometheus


                              etznab@... wrote:

                              Try researching the definition for corporation sole.

                              A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
                              incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

                              My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
                              Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
                              this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
                              is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
                              can in any way trump the single individual in charge.

                              Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
                              that first. I think they can, but are not sure.

                              Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
                              One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
                              with legal voting rights.

                              Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
                              the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.
                            • prometheus_973
                              Hello Etznab and All, Yes, after Klemp took over he devised a plan to demonize Darwin in order to appear as if he was more spiritual, innocent and pure. HK
                              Message 14 of 15 , Feb 19, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hello Etznab and All,
                                Yes, after Klemp took
                                over he devised a plan
                                to demonize Darwin
                                in order to appear as
                                if he was more spiritual,
                                innocent and pure.

                                HK fooled them all!

                                The truth is Klemp was
                                never good at sharing
                                nor playing and working
                                well with others.

                                As I said, DG screwed
                                up by handing the EK
                                car keys over to HK.

                                Plus, let's not forget that
                                Darwin had divorced Gail
                                and that she had a lot of
                                ECK friends and admirers.
                                Many were 7ths and 8ths
                                and they felt sorry for her
                                because they felt DG had
                                dishonored her and caste
                                her aside. They related to
                                this. Of course, these Eckists
                                didn't know the real Gail
                                and that she was a master
                                manipulator who inspired
                                and assisted Paul with the
                                con. Behind their backs,
                                she laughed at them all
                                for believing in Paul's lies
                                and trickery. Of course,
                                she also laughed all the
                                way to the bank after that
                                buyout of $500K and is
                                a millionaire even today!

                                Prometheus


                                Etznab wrote:

                                "And, IMO, the Board (8ths) would never have sided with a new 12th
                                initiate LEM over the 14th initiate Mahanta."

                                I remember reading something about four 8th initiate grandmothers, or
                                something. Let me see.

                                (7) Four "eighth initiates" demanded Harold takeover the Eckankar
                                Corporation in a letter to certain Trustees (concealed from myself,
                                Alan Nichols and Bob Brant). The letter was signed by four women, most
                                or all of whom were grandmothers. It was used by the conspirators to
                                cover-up the takeover power grab.

                                http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme

                                Just thought that was relevant here.


                                prometheus wrote:

                                Hello Etznab and All,
                                Klemp had the corporate
                                by-laws for Eckankar
                                rewritten after Darwin
                                was booted. Therefore,
                                the President of Eckankar
                                was no longer the head
                                of the org and of the
                                church.

                                Darwin screwed up by
                                not stating on stage or
                                in print that he, as the
                                Mahanta, was still the
                                head of Eckankar and
                                that Harold, as LEM, was
                                overseeing other areas.
                                Upon acceptance Harold
                                would not have had the
                                legal ground to present
                                a challenge. In Darwin's
                                day the ECK Board, 8th
                                initiates, still had a real
                                voice and vote. The by-laws
                                were written as such.
                                And, IMO, the Board (8ths)
                                would never have sided
                                with a new 12th initiate
                                LEM over the 14th initiate
                                Mahanta.

                                BTW- When Twitchell
                                first defined the LEM
                                he made no mention
                                of the Mahanta. It wasn't
                                until 1969 that the
                                rewrites began. Just
                                look at the definition
                                for LEM in, even, HK's
                                first Lexicon.

                                At the bottom it states:
                                (see Mahanta). And, Klemp
                                did his own revisions by
                                stating that even though
                                it states that the LEM is
                                synonymous with being
                                the Mahanta... that the
                                LEM is "in training" until
                                he can be a "Full" 14th
                                Mahanta.

                                Anyway, HK now has
                                "sole" authority to hire
                                and fire and to make
                                all decisions. Peter Skelsky,
                                the President of Eckankar,
                                works for Klemp and
                                runs the business side
                                of Eckankar.

                                The ECK Board members,
                                also, sit at Klemp's pleasure
                                and serve as a sounding
                                board for him. He merely
                                considers their opinions
                                but is under no obligation
                                to follow anything they
                                might suggest or vote
                                upon. They simply keep
                                him up-to-date and
                                informed on various
                                issues and assignments.

                                As Above, So Below.

                                The chartered Satsang
                                Societies are set up
                                in the same manner
                                as the ECK Board at
                                the ESC and follow
                                hierarchal procedure.
                                Generally, however,
                                the President of the
                                Satsang Society doesn't
                                have nearly as much
                                authority or oversight
                                duties as does Peter
                                Skelsky. Then, again,
                                some RESAs aren't very
                                "hands on" and tend
                                to designate more
                                responsibility to others.

                                The RESAs, basically,
                                have been given sole
                                church authority over
                                those Eckists within
                                their regional areas.
                                They hire, fire, promote
                                and oversee the local
                                operations and mission
                                of the Satsang Society
                                based upon field-tested
                                Guidelines supplied to
                                them by the ESC. Of course,
                                ECK-ankar is a hierarchy
                                and even RESAs answer
                                to higher ups at the ESC
                                assigned (by HK or his
                                emissaries) to oversee
                                them. Harold is the "sole"
                                piece of crap in charge
                                of this minor New Age
                                religious con and cult.

                                Prometheus


                                etznab@... wrote:

                                Try researching the definition for corporation sole.

                                A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
                                incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole

                                My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
                                Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
                                this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
                                is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
                                can in any way trump the single individual in charge.

                                Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
                                that first. I think they can, but are not sure.

                                Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
                                One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
                                with legal voting rights.

                                Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
                                the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.
                              • Tyson
                                Harold Klemp is a big poser. Tell me something I dont know.
                                Message 15 of 15 , Feb 28, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Harold Klemp is a big poser. Tell me something I dont know.
                                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Etznab and All,
                                  > Yes, after Klemp took
                                  > over he devised a plan
                                  > to demonize Darwin
                                  > in order to appear as
                                  > if he was more spiritual,
                                  > innocent and pure.
                                  >
                                  > HK fooled them all!
                                  >
                                  > The truth is Klemp was
                                  > never good at sharing
                                  > nor playing and working
                                  > well with others.
                                  >
                                  > As I said, DG screwed
                                  > up by handing the EK
                                  > car keys over to HK.
                                  >
                                  > Plus, let's not forget that
                                  > Darwin had divorced Gail
                                  > and that she had a lot of
                                  > ECK friends and admirers.
                                  > Many were 7ths and 8ths
                                  > and they felt sorry for her
                                  > because they felt DG had
                                  > dishonored her and caste
                                  > her aside. They related to
                                  > this. Of course, these Eckists
                                  > didn't know the real Gail
                                  > and that she was a master
                                  > manipulator who inspired
                                  > and assisted Paul with the
                                  > con. Behind their backs,
                                  > she laughed at them all
                                  > for believing in Paul's lies
                                  > and trickery. Of course,
                                  > she also laughed all the
                                  > way to the bank after that
                                  > buyout of $500K and is
                                  > a millionaire even today!
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Etznab wrote:
                                  >
                                  > "And, IMO, the Board (8ths) would never have sided with a new 12th
                                  > initiate LEM over the 14th initiate Mahanta."
                                  >
                                  > I remember reading something about four 8th initiate grandmothers, or
                                  > something. Let me see.
                                  >
                                  > (7) Four "eighth initiates" demanded Harold takeover the Eckankar
                                  > Corporation in a letter to certain Trustees (concealed from myself,
                                  > Alan Nichols and Bob Brant). The letter was signed by four women, most
                                  > or all of whom were grandmothers. It was used by the conspirators to
                                  > cover-up the takeover power grab.
                                  >
                                  > http://tinyurl.com/77ovjme
                                  >
                                  > Just thought that was relevant here.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > prometheus wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hello Etznab and All,
                                  > Klemp had the corporate
                                  > by-laws for Eckankar
                                  > rewritten after Darwin
                                  > was booted. Therefore,
                                  > the President of Eckankar
                                  > was no longer the head
                                  > of the org and of the
                                  > church.
                                  >
                                  > Darwin screwed up by
                                  > not stating on stage or
                                  > in print that he, as the
                                  > Mahanta, was still the
                                  > head of Eckankar and
                                  > that Harold, as LEM, was
                                  > overseeing other areas.
                                  > Upon acceptance Harold
                                  > would not have had the
                                  > legal ground to present
                                  > a challenge. In Darwin's
                                  > day the ECK Board, 8th
                                  > initiates, still had a real
                                  > voice and vote. The by-laws
                                  > were written as such.
                                  > And, IMO, the Board (8ths)
                                  > would never have sided
                                  > with a new 12th initiate
                                  > LEM over the 14th initiate
                                  > Mahanta.
                                  >
                                  > BTW- When Twitchell
                                  > first defined the LEM
                                  > he made no mention
                                  > of the Mahanta. It wasn't
                                  > until 1969 that the
                                  > rewrites began. Just
                                  > look at the definition
                                  > for LEM in, even, HK's
                                  > first Lexicon.
                                  >
                                  > At the bottom it states:
                                  > (see Mahanta). And, Klemp
                                  > did his own revisions by
                                  > stating that even though
                                  > it states that the LEM is
                                  > synonymous with being
                                  > the Mahanta... that the
                                  > LEM is "in training" until
                                  > he can be a "Full" 14th
                                  > Mahanta.
                                  >
                                  > Anyway, HK now has
                                  > "sole" authority to hire
                                  > and fire and to make
                                  > all decisions. Peter Skelsky,
                                  > the President of Eckankar,
                                  > works for Klemp and
                                  > runs the business side
                                  > of Eckankar.
                                  >
                                  > The ECK Board members,
                                  > also, sit at Klemp's pleasure
                                  > and serve as a sounding
                                  > board for him. He merely
                                  > considers their opinions
                                  > but is under no obligation
                                  > to follow anything they
                                  > might suggest or vote
                                  > upon. They simply keep
                                  > him up-to-date and
                                  > informed on various
                                  > issues and assignments.
                                  >
                                  > As Above, So Below.
                                  >
                                  > The chartered Satsang
                                  > Societies are set up
                                  > in the same manner
                                  > as the ECK Board at
                                  > the ESC and follow
                                  > hierarchal procedure.
                                  > Generally, however,
                                  > the President of the
                                  > Satsang Society doesn't
                                  > have nearly as much
                                  > authority or oversight
                                  > duties as does Peter
                                  > Skelsky. Then, again,
                                  > some RESAs aren't very
                                  > "hands on" and tend
                                  > to designate more
                                  > responsibility to others.
                                  >
                                  > The RESAs, basically,
                                  > have been given sole
                                  > church authority over
                                  > those Eckists within
                                  > their regional areas.
                                  > They hire, fire, promote
                                  > and oversee the local
                                  > operations and mission
                                  > of the Satsang Society
                                  > based upon field-tested
                                  > Guidelines supplied to
                                  > them by the ESC. Of course,
                                  > ECK-ankar is a hierarchy
                                  > and even RESAs answer
                                  > to higher ups at the ESC
                                  > assigned (by HK or his
                                  > emissaries) to oversee
                                  > them. Harold is the "sole"
                                  > piece of crap in charge
                                  > of this minor New Age
                                  > religious con and cult.
                                  >
                                  > Prometheus
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > etznab@ wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Try researching the definition for corporation sole.
                                  >
                                  > A corporation sole is a legal entity consisting of a single ("sole")
                                  > incorporated office, occupied by a single ("sole") man or woman. [....]
                                  >
                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_sole
                                  >
                                  > My impression "according to Darwin Gross" is that Harold turned
                                  > Eckankar into a corporation sole. Someone would have to follow up on
                                  > this and check for verification. If corporation sole is what Eckankar
                                  > is, then I don't know if members need be allowed to vote, or if a board
                                  > can in any way trump the single individual in charge.
                                  >
                                  > Can a non-profit be a corporation sole? One would have to determine
                                  > that first. I think they can, but are not sure.
                                  >
                                  > Member is another word one needs to follow up on and how it is defined.
                                  > One could argue that not all people as part of a non-profit are members
                                  > with legal voting rights.
                                  >
                                  > Whether members can vote is probably a mute point, IMO. I don't think
                                  > the org. / corp. is set up that way. Not according to what I have read.
                                  >
                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.