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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Clarification about Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message

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  • etznab@aol.com
    Part of what came to me lately in some of these posts is the question of: What did members do who knew about certain things, but chose to be passive followers
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 16, 2012
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      Part of what came to me lately in some of these posts is the question
      of: What did members do who knew about certain things, but chose to be
      passive followers instead?

      I think a lot of people probably found out a lot about what they didn't
      know after reading the books and research by people who were not
      members of Eckankar, or were ex-members. The question I see though is:
      Why didn't the members and clergy who knew things ..? Why didn't they
      share with the new people and members?

      This is not a condemnation of those who can honestly plead ignorance,
      or that they really didn't know about a great many things. It is about
      those who did know, but remained quiet, for whatever reason.

      So who was there when myself, or anybody else, was a new member to
      Eckankar that could share with us some of the things most of us would
      find out only decades later?

      There was Harold Klemp around 1984 who wrote about Death of an Ideal
      and about the writings of Paul Twitchell. This was not long after
      Darwin Gross was ousted, and when Harold got his hands on the "Paul
      Twitchell library".

      One of the things I remember that Harold Klemp said was: "It's more fun
      to find out yourself rather than be told."

      See article (at link): Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons, by
      Harold Klemp for quote context.

      http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man2.html

      I guess the argument I saw, or what I see now, begs the question about
      whether it really is more fun. At least, Is it "more fun" to find out
      some things most Eckists learned only after decades as members (things
      that really mattered), when somebody (members and clergy) that did know
      could have told them sooner?

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
      <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thu, Feb 16, 2012 9:01 pm
      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Clarification about Klemp
      Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message

       
      Certainly your writing is not concise and is very difficult to follow. 
      Your words appear hostile and belligerent.  Instead of being critical
      of others you now want to make out like I am an idiot because you feel
      misunderstood.  You speak of being responsible for what you say yet you
      can't treat others respectfully.  From my experience, that is pretty
      typical of eckist in general.  If  you are no longer in with the
      eckankar crowd, why don't you at least try and drop the abusive crap? 
      I did speak toward you in a respectful manner.  Whether you agree or
      not, I don't care.  What you think of me matters not.  At this time I
      tell you that you ramble on like an idiot.  Don't bother to respond to
      me.  I freely admit I don't intend to wade through ten paragraphs of
      pure dribble. 

      --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Gnothe Seauton <prometheus_973@...>
      wrote:

      From: Gnothe Seauton <prometheus_973@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Clarification about Klemp
      Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message
      To: "eckankarsurvivorsanonymous@yahoogroups.com"
      <eckankarsurvivorsanonymous@yahoogroups.com>
      Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 1:19 AM

       


      ----- Forwarded Message -----
      From: Santim Vah <santimvah@...>
      To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous-owner@yahoogroups.com"
      <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous-owner@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: "SantimVah @ Yahoo" <santimvah@...>
      Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:39 PM
      Subject: PRIVATE - Clarification about Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud &
      Apollonius Message




      Clarification about Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message


      Apollonious2k,

      "Why throw the baby out with the bath water?"
      Hi Prometheus, 

      This email is to you PERSONALLY to clarify exactly what was my
      intention in my posted 

      message a couple weeks ago. 

      I send it to you because it is YOUR group I posted to, and you may do
      whatever you wish 

      with the following information, to accept it or reject do anything you
      want with it. For I 

      really do not care. 

      I don't care because personally I am fed up with people who are unable
      to read and 

      understand the most simplest of things. At least they are simple to me,
      and as obvious as 

      the light of the Sun. Unfortunately so many people have such blinders
      on, have so many 

      preconceived beliefs that they project their own muddled confused minds
      and scrambled 

      beliefs onto everyone else but see what is right in front of their face
      in plain english. 

      However, I must be responsible for my own words and how they are
      twisted and have been 

      misconstrued publicly, but I do this only for your own benefit, just in
      case others beliefs 

      & words have influenced your own thinking as well. It is the least I
      can do, and then know 

      that I won't bother you again. 

      I do not care what others think or believe about me, but especially
      when they can't even 

      understand what it is I have actually said, and what those words
      actually mean, which was 

      the real intent of my post which has now been twisted out of all
      recognition by someone who 

      thinks they KNOW better than I know what I said and what I meant. 

      =======================================

      FIRST
      Janice relied to my post, in part with this:

      "Mr Arundell,
      I feel you are being way too harsh on Apollonius and the other ex hi
      initiates. ....."

      THAT IS TOTALLY INCORRECT AND A GROSS MIS-REPRESENTATION OF WHAT I SAID
      ======================================

      SECOND
      What I said in part to Apollonius was this:

      "That yourself and all those older HIs you allude to ....."

      NO WHERE TO I REFER TO EX-INITIATES NOR DETRACTORS OF ECKANKAR LIKE
      YOURSELF. 


      =======================================

      THIRD
      I know nothing about Apollonius, I have no idea if he is an ex- or
      current eckist, nor do i 

      know if he is or was ever an HI, I have not read any prior posts of his
      on ESA. 

      MY MESSAGE was specifically directed at what this person SAID on your
      board in the message 

      I was replying to PLUS his comments beforehand in the EXACT SAME
      THREAD. 

      AND THAT IS ALL. 

      ========================================

      FOURTH
      What Apollonius had said in part, is this: 

      In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
      However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later
      Millie
      Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a
      better
      realization. It was, they said, 

      "The Sound current that was the MOST important part of the students
      growth, not a Master or 

      even a LEM". 

      PLUS Apollonius put that as a VERBATIM QUOTE by KNOWN HIs in ECKANKAR
      .. not EX-Eckists in 

      1973 !!!!! Helen Frye, Pat Henderson, Charlie Wallace, Millie Moore,
      Helen Baird.  

      ===============================

      FIFTH
      So these are the people that Apollonius was ALLUDING TO ... he was not
      alluding to "other 

      ex hi initiates." in ANY WAY. 

      IN FACT he was doing the opposite, and as such he was also STILL
      SUPPORTING OF OTHER KNOWN 

      HIGH INITIATES IN ECKANKAR TODAY WHO SAY THE SAME THINGS STILL IN 2011
      & 2012. 

      As I said .. Patti Simpson herself said the same thin to me via email
      last year about this 

      baby and the bath water *story*. 

      ================================

      SIXTH
      So, my critical comments, and my blunt opinions were being directed to
      that group of HIGH 

      INITIATES who have since the 1970's and continuing to this day that
      operate INSIDE Eckankar 

      covertly, and yet who:

      DID NOT DO NOT SUPPORT THE ORGANISATIONAL LEADERSHIP.

      DID NOT AND DO NOT SUPPORT DARWIN OR HAROLD AS GODMEN, MAHANTA, ALL
      KNOWING GURUS OF 

      ECKANKAR.

      DISAGREED TO AT THE CORE ABOUT THE TEACHING AS PRESENTED AND CHANGED BY
      SRI HAROLD OVER THE 

      YEARS.

      AND DID NOT AND DO NOT AGREE WITH THE TEACHINGS & DOCTRINE AS WRITTEN
      BY PAUL IN LATER 

      YEARS OF HIS LIFE EITHER. 

      and yet they remained High Initiate Eckists and members of Eckankar

      and yet they selected a small number of Eckists to SHARE what they
      KNEW, whilst ignoring 

      everyone else in Eckankar around the world. 

      Since the 1970s to this day they have been working as a COVERT behind
      the scenes group of 

      self-appointed CARRIERS OF THE TRUE FAITH to share these *true
      teachings* of Paul as they 

      saw them .. and to hell with al the rest who were being LED ASTRAY by
      the likes of Harold, 

      by the High Initiates who did NOT know what these people knew, and left
      to fend for 

      themselves.... and like so many EX-High Initiates like yourself were
      left to WORK IT OUT 

      FOR YOURSELF .. AND GO THRU HELL ON EARTH IN THE PROCESS. 

      ===========================

      SEVENTH

      Now, please note the names mentioned by Apollonius, and you will see
      them all mentioned 

      here, plus many more including GAIL TWITCHELL

      http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache
      :FEZyGDN71BoJ:bluestreak.pbworks.com/f/

      Obits.xls+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

      Patti Simpsons name is not mentioned but she was also a SECRET MEMBER
      OF THIS TEAM who 

      accepted a VERSION of what the teachings as written by Paul, but have
      NEVER supported the 

      BULLSHIT that has followed after he died in 1971. 

      The other name not mentioned on this list but whom is also a KEY PLAYER
      in this SUB-SECT of 

      current members of ECKANKAR is Douglas Marman. 

      What defines this SUB-GROUP is that they are all 100% loyal to Paul
      Twitchell and core of 

      his teachings and methods. 

      Just as Apollonius also is trying to say to you and your group. He
      believes and accepts the 

      same thing. And rationalises it all away. 

      BEFORE someone is spoken to about these *higher-insider* SUB-Sect
      beliefs, their Bona-Fides 

      are checked with others in the group. They ask, things like is this
      person Sean TRUSTWORTHY 

      .. DOES HE GET IT .. OR IS HE A BLINDED LOYAL TRUE BELIEVER ECKISTS WHO
      LOOKS TO HAROLD AS 

      A TRUE MASTER and the rest of the *doctrine* literally?

      Once one appears to be also against PAUL himself, anyone who is overtly
      critical about the 

      Plagiarism etc, or doubt Paul .. will NOT GET in, and will NEVER be
      spoken to openly and 

      honestly about this SUB-set of Eckankar beliefs. You are on your own. 

      IOW, depending on the JUDGEMENT and the OPINIONS of these unknown
      people, will depend on 

      whether one gets past the Gate-keepers. 

      =======================

      EIGHTH
      The rub is this .... this sub-group are still not 100% truthful either.
      Doug may write a 

      book called the WHOLE TRUTH but they will never publicly say a word
      against Eckankar as a 

      whole, nor Harold Klemp specifically. For to do so would also undermine
      their beloved Paul 

      who can do no wrong, and is above criticism.  

      IOW they are have always been intent on saving the BABY .. no matter
      how much they also 

      KNOW and personally disagree with so much of the *doctrine* that Paul
      added in the last 

      years of his life. 

      IOW they speak out of both sides of their mouth as much as Harold does.
      They will only go 

      so far ... they will not tell it as it is except amongst themselves. 

      So even those that are given hints about their version of the *true
      teachings* they will 

      still spell it out plainly for the world to see, NOR for Harold or the
      others that are now 

      HIs and Eighth initiates and above but whom still follow Harold and
      todays Eckankar 

      blindly. 

      Doug calls it *poetry* in public. He gives subtle hints, that unless
      one can break thru the 

      bullshit on their own, they will never GET what he is really saying.
      ===================

      NINTH
      Apollonius is a classic example, except he is being anonymously
      critical of Harold. That is 

      the only difference here. he also may have LEFT Eckankar, but that is
      besides the point, 

      and I do not know anyway. I don't know who he or she is, and probably
      neither do you. 

      There is a pattern of behaviour to work out the key to who this inner
      covert core is. It 

      came through loud and clear in my email discussions with Patti Simpson. 

      They do not ever say Rebazar Tarzs or Sudar Singh nor any of the ECK
      masters are REAL (as 

      described by harold or in the teachings) nor suggest that one should go
      seek them out on 

      the inner. 

      They will avoid at all cost ANY overt criticisms of harold as the LEM
      Mahanta, but instead 

      will talk AROUND THE ISSUE, and drop it entirely. 

      They will openly point out errors and bad behaviour by power trip ego
      headed current HIs in 

      general, but will NEVER state that it is the Board and harold and ESC
      that have ANY 

      responsibility for these peoples individual actions and utter
      incompetence either. 

      They will attend ECK functions, and WS, and SEminars, they will give
      talks at Eck groups as 

      Doug has done in the NW, but they will NEVER speak highly of Harold
      himself, nor touch on 

      anything of harold's vesion of the teachings in any way. So Doug
      instead will speak about 

      Rumi and the Sufis, and other matters. and simply AVOID anything that
      might be percieved as 

      a disagreement with harold. 

      Doyg and others may well allude to Rumi as an ECk master in the
      *lineage* of Eckankar but 

      he will NOT point out that harold in his writings says something
      completely DIFFERENT. 

      THEIR INTENTION IS TO KEEP ECKANKAR ALIVE NO MATTER WHAT - NO MATTER
      WHAT HAROLD DOES TO 

      IT, NO MATTER WHAT CRAP GETS LAID ON UNSUSPECTING MEMBERS IN THE
      PROCESS. 

      And this has been in operation in a semi-organised shoot from mthe hip
       approach for 

      decades. 

      Apollonius KNOWS this .. I can tell this by what he has said on your
      group, and that is why 

      I have NO respect for him nor this duplicitous game they play all over
      the world, on 

      Facebook, on your group, on a.r.e., and in local satsangs too. 

      and this is why I said what I said. 

      I said the same thing almost to Patti Simpson .. but given I knew she
      was dying at that 

      time I had to back off and give her a break. And no, no one *told me*
      she was dying either, 

      I just knew, and I gave her my farewells *poetically* and she got it! 

      ===================

      TENTH
      The bottom line in all this for is that a) there is a lot of truth in
      what these people say 

      about Paul and his teachings, b) it is impossible for the normal member
      to work it out on 

      their own though c)they are in fact all WELL-INTENTIONED, and they
      truly mean well and they 

      really believe that they are doing the RIGHT thing .. BUT I totally
      disagree with them on 

      this point, and the covert duplicitous nature of their activities
      WITHIN ECKANKAR.  

      personally I much prefer the TRUTH .. the whole truth and nothing but
      the truth. 

      And if people eckists or non-eckists, true believers or the most
      outspken detractor can't 

      handle it, then tough luck. 

      I will close with saying do NOT make assumptions about what I know for
      sure and what I ahve 

      been able to work out for myself. I am no prophet, I do NOT know
      everything, but I my view 

      is that I know enough over the years to say what I have said. 

      THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION ONLY ... on some points I could be wrong,
      which ones I do not 

      know for certain because everything is overlaid with so much bullshit,
      so many lies, so 

      many omissions, so much distrust, so much PR spin n crap, no one could
      work it out for 

      sure. 

      BUT trust ones own instincts no matter how crazy it might seem, or what
      shit is laid upon 

      them by people who actually don't have a clue, and probably never will. 

      One last thing I will add is that Paul's many changes in his last few
      years, including the 

      far country were done on purpose as time bomb to blow up the teaching
      he had created. He 

      lost control of the Board in 1969 ... he knew that, and so he planted
      the seeds of its own 

      destruction. By the time Harold came along, he was utterly clueless,
      and he still is imho. 

      IMHO, yes what Apollonius says that one can grow and unfold within
      Eckankar folloiwng 

      Paul's teachings and methods is VERY true .. but that is NO EXCUSE ofr
      it;s existence 

      either .. for people can unfold ANYWHERE, in any religion, or in no
      religion .. so this is 

      a COP OUT, based upon nothing but a worshipful attitude towards Paul
      himself. 

      I doubt very many of those in this specialy chosen group of Paul's even
      know Paul for who 

      he was either, and they sure do not ever think that what he did in
      those last years with 

      the Mahanta thing, and all the eck masters, and the chosen people line,
      and all that jazz 

      was on purpose. 

      Some of those in the past were simply TOO CLOSE to Paul, and make the
      error that because 

      they were they KNEW him better than anyone else, let alone why he may
      have said and done 

      some of the things he did. 

      But people swallow their beliefs WHOLE .. and forever and a day repeat
      it to others as if 

      it is the god's honest truth. In the process they mislead others. 

       And even if some of them see this as AI do, they still refuse to be
      critical of Paul and 

      tell the truth about this. Whereas I can see Paul's probably GOOD
      intentions and yet still 

      be critical of HOW he did it, whilst still being grateful for the
      things he COMPILED 

      together in the one place. 

      But that is NO justification for the continuation of an Eckankar which
      is NOTHING like Paul 

      was trying as flawed as he was to get through to people. This approach
      is purely an 

      AMERICAN socially entrenched behavioural pattern and belief. It isn't
      true and it isn't 

      justifiable in my world. 

      Those that knowingly continue to pretend to be a member of eckanakr
      today, and yet only 

      give lip service to harold and HIS modern teaching AS IF it is the same
      thing as the core 

      of Paul's teaching, good intentioned or not, are cowards in my humble
      opinion. 

      These refuse to stand up and speak truth. 

      It starts at GAIL and works it way through the HIs levels in AMERICA.
      Anyone outside of 

      America who does not get access to these people via the Internet (and
      it is only a very 

      few, i know that) are simply cut off and being sold a load of horseshit
      by Eckankar and 

      their own RESAs and so on down the country organisations. 

      ========================

      ELEVENTH & LAST

      Paul's BABY died with him. No one since has had a clue, at least not
      anyone connected with 

      everyday leadership positions in Eckankar; bar this covert group which
      developed over time 

      and continues to this day operating behind the scenes. 

      That BABY was put to rest inside a bath tub of bath water, and there it
      has rested ever 

      since for 40 years. 

      Follow the parable and the analogy properly and not the SPIN of it
      given out by Doug, 

      patti, all others unknown and Appllonius here. 

      What would be left in that bath tub, after forty years behind a locked
      door .. and what 

      chance would anyone have of being able to extract the essence of that
      baby in the congealed 

      mess of GOO now in the bath tub? 

      Everyone though is their own problem (as Paul said once) 

      People simply cannot think for themselves .. but it makes it far worse
      when people are 

      knowing being lied to, and having the TRUTH with held from them by
      people they trust .. and 

      people who should actually KNOW BETTER but are as misguided as anyone
      on this planet today. 

      and yeah, i do think I know what i know ... and yes I believe what i
      believe, and yes i 

      think i know far more than others ... but who doesn't in this crap game
      about Eckankar .... 

      therefore I say trust YOUR OWN INSTINCTS ... believe whatever it is YOU
      CHOOSE, but leave 

      me out of it. 

      To Apollonius and all those others I say again .. you are all cowards
      scared of your own 

      shadows, but especially of the slight possibility that someone like
      Paul or Harold will 

      call them a black magician or something else equally bad for
      criticising paul's dead *baby* 

      .. what weak crap. What a self-deluded load of BS. 

      Good intentions also pave the way to hell .. and everyone that has
      suffered as a DIRECT 

      result of THEIR SILENCE for up to 40 years or so are karmicly
      responsible for the harm 

      done. 

      That is my view and opinion today. I maintain my own right to change it
      any time i wish, 

      when i decide that I am wrong in some way. 

      In the meantime, I do not believe nor trust, nor accept anything anyone
      else has to say 

      about Paul and his eckankar, i sleep well at night. 

      and it is NOT my responsibility to help ahyone else in or outside of
      eckanakr to work this 

      out. I didn;t cause it, I didn;t support it, and thus am a clean skin. 

      In the process I have learnt a lot by myself for myself. But one thing
      I know, and that is 

      I have NEVER lied publicly to anyone about my own beliefs and knowledge
      or opinions. 

      I din;t have to .. people are so busy projecting their own
      self-delusions and lack of 

      comprehension onto me (ie Janice as one example) or so busy telling the
      world what the 

      truth is .. ala Doug or Lane .. it;s been impossible to get a word in
      ... 

      LOL 

      take care prometheus

      You would archive much more if you told the world who you really were,
      I know what pseudo 

      name you went by on the TS site, that ain't hard to work out. 

      and you'd achieve more if you became far more SPECIFIC in detail about
      your own experiences 

      and knowledge from the FIRST PETSON only ... and you'd also achieve a
      lot more if the 

      history you conveyed was more accurate and based on fact not hand me
      down info. 

      thanks sean ... 

      PS I am saving this for my own use ... it might end up on a.r.e. or in
      a history book one 

      day

      PPS you can do what you like with it ... but I repeat that this is a
      personal letter from 

      me to you for YOUR own benefit alone. make your own choices, but be
      prepared whatever the 

      consequences are for your own actions. Think before you leap. There's a
      lot more going on 

      than meets the eye pal, and it has always been like this. 

      CHOW 
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