Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Clarification about Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message
- Part of what came to me lately in some of these posts is the question
of: What did members do who knew about certain things, but chose to be
passive followers instead?
I think a lot of people probably found out a lot about what they didn't
know after reading the books and research by people who were not
members of Eckankar, or were ex-members. The question I see though is:
Why didn't the members and clergy who knew things ..? Why didn't they
share with the new people and members?
This is not a condemnation of those who can honestly plead ignorance,
or that they really didn't know about a great many things. It is about
those who did know, but remained quiet, for whatever reason.
So who was there when myself, or anybody else, was a new member to
Eckankar that could share with us some of the things most of us would
find out only decades later?
There was Harold Klemp around 1984 who wrote about Death of an Ideal
and about the writings of Paul Twitchell. This was not long after
Darwin Gross was ousted, and when Harold got his hands on the "Paul
One of the things I remember that Harold Klemp said was: "It's more fun
to find out yourself rather than be told."
See article (at link): Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons, by
Harold Klemp for quote context.
I guess the argument I saw, or what I see now, begs the question about
whether it really is more fun. At least, Is it "more fun" to find out
some things most Eckists learned only after decades as members (things
that really mattered), when somebody (members and clergy) that did know
could have told them sooner?
From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
Sent: Thu, Feb 16, 2012 9:01 pm
Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Clarification about Klemp
Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message
Certainly your writing is not concise and is very difficult to follow.
Your words appear hostile and belligerent. Instead of being critical
of others you now want to make out like I am an idiot because you feel
misunderstood. You speak of being responsible for what you say yet you
can't treat others respectfully. From my experience, that is pretty
typical of eckist in general. If you are no longer in with the
eckankar crowd, why don't you at least try and drop the abusive crap?
I did speak toward you in a respectful manner. Whether you agree or
not, I don't care. What you think of me matters not. At this time I
tell you that you ramble on like an idiot. Don't bother to respond to
me. I freely admit I don't intend to wade through ten paragraphs of
--- On Fri, 2/17/12, Gnothe Seauton <prometheus_973@...>
From: Gnothe Seauton <prometheus_973@...>
Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Clarification about Klemp
Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message
Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 1:19 AM
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Santim Vah <santimvah@...>
Cc: "SantimVah @ Yahoo" <santimvah@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:39 PM
Subject: PRIVATE - Clarification about Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud &
Clarification about Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message
"Why throw the baby out with the bath water?"
This email is to you PERSONALLY to clarify exactly what was my
intention in my posted
message a couple weeks ago.
I send it to you because it is YOUR group I posted to, and you may do
whatever you wish
with the following information, to accept it or reject do anything you
want with it. For I
really do not care.
I don't care because personally I am fed up with people who are unable
to read and
understand the most simplest of things. At least they are simple to me,
and as obvious as
the light of the Sun. Unfortunately so many people have such blinders
on, have so many
preconceived beliefs that they project their own muddled confused minds
beliefs onto everyone else but see what is right in front of their face
in plain english.
However, I must be responsible for my own words and how they are
twisted and have been
misconstrued publicly, but I do this only for your own benefit, just in
case others beliefs
& words have influenced your own thinking as well. It is the least I
can do, and then know
that I won't bother you again.
I do not care what others think or believe about me, but especially
when they can't even
understand what it is I have actually said, and what those words
actually mean, which was
the real intent of my post which has now been twisted out of all
recognition by someone who
thinks they KNOW better than I know what I said and what I meant.
Janice relied to my post, in part with this:
I feel you are being way too harsh on Apollonius and the other ex hi
THAT IS TOTALLY INCORRECT AND A GROSS MIS-REPRESENTATION OF WHAT I SAID
What I said in part to Apollonius was this:
"That yourself and all those older HIs you allude to ....."
NO WHERE TO I REFER TO EX-INITIATES NOR DETRACTORS OF ECKANKAR LIKE
I know nothing about Apollonius, I have no idea if he is an ex- or
current eckist, nor do i
know if he is or was ever an HI, I have not read any prior posts of his
MY MESSAGE was specifically directed at what this person SAID on your
board in the message
I was replying to PLUS his comments beforehand in the EXACT SAME
AND THAT IS ALL.
What Apollonius had said in part, is this:
In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later
Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a
realization. It was, they said,
"The Sound current that was the MOST important part of the students
growth, not a Master or
even a LEM".
PLUS Apollonius put that as a VERBATIM QUOTE by KNOWN HIs in ECKANKAR
.. not EX-Eckists in
1973 !!!!! Helen Frye, Pat Henderson, Charlie Wallace, Millie Moore,
So these are the people that Apollonius was ALLUDING TO ... he was not
alluding to "other
ex hi initiates." in ANY WAY.
IN FACT he was doing the opposite, and as such he was also STILL
SUPPORTING OF OTHER KNOWN
HIGH INITIATES IN ECKANKAR TODAY WHO SAY THE SAME THINGS STILL IN 2011
As I said .. Patti Simpson herself said the same thin to me via email
last year about this
baby and the bath water *story*.
So, my critical comments, and my blunt opinions were being directed to
that group of HIGH
INITIATES who have since the 1970's and continuing to this day that
operate INSIDE Eckankar
covertly, and yet who:
DID NOT DO NOT SUPPORT THE ORGANISATIONAL LEADERSHIP.
DID NOT AND DO NOT SUPPORT DARWIN OR HAROLD AS GODMEN, MAHANTA, ALL
KNOWING GURUS OF
DISAGREED TO AT THE CORE ABOUT THE TEACHING AS PRESENTED AND CHANGED BY
SRI HAROLD OVER THE
AND DID NOT AND DO NOT AGREE WITH THE TEACHINGS & DOCTRINE AS WRITTEN
BY PAUL IN LATER
YEARS OF HIS LIFE EITHER.
and yet they remained High Initiate Eckists and members of Eckankar
and yet they selected a small number of Eckists to SHARE what they
KNEW, whilst ignoring
everyone else in Eckankar around the world.
Since the 1970s to this day they have been working as a COVERT behind
the scenes group of
self-appointed CARRIERS OF THE TRUE FAITH to share these *true
teachings* of Paul as they
saw them .. and to hell with al the rest who were being LED ASTRAY by
the likes of Harold,
by the High Initiates who did NOT know what these people knew, and left
to fend for
themselves.... and like so many EX-High Initiates like yourself were
left to WORK IT OUT
FOR YOURSELF .. AND GO THRU HELL ON EARTH IN THE PROCESS.
Now, please note the names mentioned by Apollonius, and you will see
them all mentioned
here, plus many more including GAIL TWITCHELL
Patti Simpsons name is not mentioned but she was also a SECRET MEMBER
OF THIS TEAM who
accepted a VERSION of what the teachings as written by Paul, but have
NEVER supported the
BULLSHIT that has followed after he died in 1971.
The other name not mentioned on this list but whom is also a KEY PLAYER
in this SUB-SECT of
current members of ECKANKAR is Douglas Marman.
What defines this SUB-GROUP is that they are all 100% loyal to Paul
Twitchell and core of
his teachings and methods.
Just as Apollonius also is trying to say to you and your group. He
believes and accepts the
same thing. And rationalises it all away.
BEFORE someone is spoken to about these *higher-insider* SUB-Sect
beliefs, their Bona-Fides
are checked with others in the group. They ask, things like is this
person Sean TRUSTWORTHY
.. DOES HE GET IT .. OR IS HE A BLINDED LOYAL TRUE BELIEVER ECKISTS WHO
LOOKS TO HAROLD AS
A TRUE MASTER and the rest of the *doctrine* literally?
Once one appears to be also against PAUL himself, anyone who is overtly
critical about the
Plagiarism etc, or doubt Paul .. will NOT GET in, and will NEVER be
spoken to openly and
honestly about this SUB-set of Eckankar beliefs. You are on your own.
IOW, depending on the JUDGEMENT and the OPINIONS of these unknown
people, will depend on
whether one gets past the Gate-keepers.
The rub is this .... this sub-group are still not 100% truthful either.
Doug may write a
book called the WHOLE TRUTH but they will never publicly say a word
against Eckankar as a
whole, nor Harold Klemp specifically. For to do so would also undermine
their beloved Paul
who can do no wrong, and is above criticism.
IOW they are have always been intent on saving the BABY .. no matter
how much they also
KNOW and personally disagree with so much of the *doctrine* that Paul
added in the last
years of his life.
IOW they speak out of both sides of their mouth as much as Harold does.
They will only go
so far ... they will not tell it as it is except amongst themselves.
So even those that are given hints about their version of the *true
teachings* they will
still spell it out plainly for the world to see, NOR for Harold or the
others that are now
HIs and Eighth initiates and above but whom still follow Harold and
Doug calls it *poetry* in public. He gives subtle hints, that unless
one can break thru the
bullshit on their own, they will never GET what he is really saying.
Apollonius is a classic example, except he is being anonymously
critical of Harold. That is
the only difference here. he also may have LEFT Eckankar, but that is
besides the point,
and I do not know anyway. I don't know who he or she is, and probably
neither do you.
There is a pattern of behaviour to work out the key to who this inner
covert core is. It
came through loud and clear in my email discussions with Patti Simpson.
They do not ever say Rebazar Tarzs or Sudar Singh nor any of the ECK
masters are REAL (as
described by harold or in the teachings) nor suggest that one should go
seek them out on
They will avoid at all cost ANY overt criticisms of harold as the LEM
Mahanta, but instead
will talk AROUND THE ISSUE, and drop it entirely.
They will openly point out errors and bad behaviour by power trip ego
headed current HIs in
general, but will NEVER state that it is the Board and harold and ESC
that have ANY
responsibility for these peoples individual actions and utter
They will attend ECK functions, and WS, and SEminars, they will give
talks at Eck groups as
Doug has done in the NW, but they will NEVER speak highly of Harold
himself, nor touch on
anything of harold's vesion of the teachings in any way. So Doug
instead will speak about
Rumi and the Sufis, and other matters. and simply AVOID anything that
might be percieved as
a disagreement with harold.
Doyg and others may well allude to Rumi as an ECk master in the
*lineage* of Eckankar but
he will NOT point out that harold in his writings says something
THEIR INTENTION IS TO KEEP ECKANKAR ALIVE NO MATTER WHAT - NO MATTER
WHAT HAROLD DOES TO
IT, NO MATTER WHAT CRAP GETS LAID ON UNSUSPECTING MEMBERS IN THE
And this has been in operation in a semi-organised shoot from mthe hip
Apollonius KNOWS this .. I can tell this by what he has said on your
group, and that is why
I have NO respect for him nor this duplicitous game they play all over
the world, on
Facebook, on your group, on a.r.e., and in local satsangs too.
and this is why I said what I said.
I said the same thing almost to Patti Simpson .. but given I knew she
was dying at that
time I had to back off and give her a break. And no, no one *told me*
she was dying either,
I just knew, and I gave her my farewells *poetically* and she got it!
The bottom line in all this for is that a) there is a lot of truth in
what these people say
about Paul and his teachings, b) it is impossible for the normal member
to work it out on
their own though c)they are in fact all WELL-INTENTIONED, and they
truly mean well and they
really believe that they are doing the RIGHT thing .. BUT I totally
disagree with them on
this point, and the covert duplicitous nature of their activities
personally I much prefer the TRUTH .. the whole truth and nothing but
And if people eckists or non-eckists, true believers or the most
outspken detractor can't
handle it, then tough luck.
I will close with saying do NOT make assumptions about what I know for
sure and what I ahve
been able to work out for myself. I am no prophet, I do NOT know
everything, but I my view
is that I know enough over the years to say what I have said.
THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION ONLY ... on some points I could be wrong,
which ones I do not
know for certain because everything is overlaid with so much bullshit,
so many lies, so
many omissions, so much distrust, so much PR spin n crap, no one could
work it out for
BUT trust ones own instincts no matter how crazy it might seem, or what
shit is laid upon
them by people who actually don't have a clue, and probably never will.
One last thing I will add is that Paul's many changes in his last few
years, including the
far country were done on purpose as time bomb to blow up the teaching
he had created. He
lost control of the Board in 1969 ... he knew that, and so he planted
the seeds of its own
destruction. By the time Harold came along, he was utterly clueless,
and he still is imho.
IMHO, yes what Apollonius says that one can grow and unfold within
Paul's teachings and methods is VERY true .. but that is NO EXCUSE ofr
either .. for people can unfold ANYWHERE, in any religion, or in no
religion .. so this is
a COP OUT, based upon nothing but a worshipful attitude towards Paul
I doubt very many of those in this specialy chosen group of Paul's even
know Paul for who
he was either, and they sure do not ever think that what he did in
those last years with
the Mahanta thing, and all the eck masters, and the chosen people line,
and all that jazz
was on purpose.
Some of those in the past were simply TOO CLOSE to Paul, and make the
error that because
they were they KNEW him better than anyone else, let alone why he may
have said and done
some of the things he did.
But people swallow their beliefs WHOLE .. and forever and a day repeat
it to others as if
it is the god's honest truth. In the process they mislead others.
And even if some of them see this as AI do, they still refuse to be
critical of Paul and
tell the truth about this. Whereas I can see Paul's probably GOOD
intentions and yet still
be critical of HOW he did it, whilst still being grateful for the
things he COMPILED
together in the one place.
But that is NO justification for the continuation of an Eckankar which
is NOTHING like Paul
was trying as flawed as he was to get through to people. This approach
is purely an
AMERICAN socially entrenched behavioural pattern and belief. It isn't
true and it isn't
justifiable in my world.
Those that knowingly continue to pretend to be a member of eckanakr
today, and yet only
give lip service to harold and HIS modern teaching AS IF it is the same
thing as the core
of Paul's teaching, good intentioned or not, are cowards in my humble
These refuse to stand up and speak truth.
It starts at GAIL and works it way through the HIs levels in AMERICA.
Anyone outside of
America who does not get access to these people via the Internet (and
it is only a very
few, i know that) are simply cut off and being sold a load of horseshit
by Eckankar and
their own RESAs and so on down the country organisations.
ELEVENTH & LAST
Paul's BABY died with him. No one since has had a clue, at least not
anyone connected with
everyday leadership positions in Eckankar; bar this covert group which
developed over time
and continues to this day operating behind the scenes.
That BABY was put to rest inside a bath tub of bath water, and there it
has rested ever
since for 40 years.
Follow the parable and the analogy properly and not the SPIN of it
given out by Doug,
patti, all others unknown and Appllonius here.
What would be left in that bath tub, after forty years behind a locked
door .. and what
chance would anyone have of being able to extract the essence of that
baby in the congealed
mess of GOO now in the bath tub?
Everyone though is their own problem (as Paul said once)
People simply cannot think for themselves .. but it makes it far worse
when people are
knowing being lied to, and having the TRUTH with held from them by
people they trust .. and
people who should actually KNOW BETTER but are as misguided as anyone
on this planet today.
and yeah, i do think I know what i know ... and yes I believe what i
believe, and yes i
think i know far more than others ... but who doesn't in this crap game
about Eckankar ....
therefore I say trust YOUR OWN INSTINCTS ... believe whatever it is YOU
CHOOSE, but leave
me out of it.
To Apollonius and all those others I say again .. you are all cowards
scared of your own
shadows, but especially of the slight possibility that someone like
Paul or Harold will
call them a black magician or something else equally bad for
criticising paul's dead *baby*
.. what weak crap. What a self-deluded load of BS.
Good intentions also pave the way to hell .. and everyone that has
suffered as a DIRECT
result of THEIR SILENCE for up to 40 years or so are karmicly
responsible for the harm
That is my view and opinion today. I maintain my own right to change it
any time i wish,
when i decide that I am wrong in some way.
In the meantime, I do not believe nor trust, nor accept anything anyone
else has to say
about Paul and his eckankar, i sleep well at night.
and it is NOT my responsibility to help ahyone else in or outside of
eckanakr to work this
out. I didn;t cause it, I didn;t support it, and thus am a clean skin.
In the process I have learnt a lot by myself for myself. But one thing
I know, and that is
I have NEVER lied publicly to anyone about my own beliefs and knowledge
I din;t have to .. people are so busy projecting their own
self-delusions and lack of
comprehension onto me (ie Janice as one example) or so busy telling the
world what the
truth is .. ala Doug or Lane .. it;s been impossible to get a word in
take care prometheus
You would archive much more if you told the world who you really were,
I know what pseudo
name you went by on the TS site, that ain't hard to work out.
and you'd achieve more if you became far more SPECIFIC in detail about
your own experiences
and knowledge from the FIRST PETSON only ... and you'd also achieve a
lot more if the
history you conveyed was more accurate and based on fact not hand me
thanks sean ...
PS I am saving this for my own use ... it might end up on a.r.e. or in
a history book one
PPS you can do what you like with it ... but I repeat that this is a
personal letter from
me to you for YOUR own benefit alone. make your own choices, but be
prepared whatever the
consequences are for your own actions. Think before you leap. There's a
lot more going on
than meets the eye pal, and it has always been like this.