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Clarification about Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message

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  • Gnothe Seauton
    ... From: Santim Vah To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous-owner@yahoogroups.com Cc:
    Message 1 of 3 , Feb 16, 2012
    • 0 Attachment

      ----- Forwarded Message -----
      From: Santim Vah <santimvah@...>
      To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous-owner@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous-owner@yahoogroups.com>
      Cc: "SantimVah @ Yahoo" <santimvah@...>
      Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:39 PM
      Subject: PRIVATE - Clarification about Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message



      Clarification about Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message


      Apollonious2k,

      "Why throw the baby out with the bath water?"
      Hi Prometheus, 

      This email is to you PERSONALLY to clarify exactly what was my intention in my posted 

      message a couple weeks ago. 

      I send it to you because it is YOUR group I posted to, and you may do whatever you wish 

      with the following information, to accept it or reject do anything you want with it. For I 

      really do not care. 

      I don't care because personally I am fed up with people who are unable to read and 

      understand the most simplest of things. At least they are simple to me, and as obvious as 

      the light of the Sun. Unfortunately so many people have such blinders on, have so many 

      preconceived beliefs that they project their own muddled confused minds and scrambled 

      beliefs onto everyone else but see what is right in front of their face in plain english. 

      However, I must be responsible for my own words and how they are twisted and have been 

      misconstrued publicly, but I do this only for your own benefit, just in case others beliefs 

      & words have influenced your own thinking as well. It is the least I can do, and then know 

      that I won't bother you again. 

      I do not care what others think or believe about me, but especially when they can't even 

      understand what it is I have actually said, and what those words actually mean, which was 

      the real intent of my post which has now been twisted out of all recognition by someone who 

      thinks they KNOW better than I know what I said and what I meant. 

      =======================================

      FIRST
      Janice relied to my post, in part with this:

      "Mr Arundell,
      I feel you are being way too harsh on Apollonius and the other ex hi initiates. ....."

      THAT IS TOTALLY INCORRECT AND A GROSS MIS-REPRESENTATION OF WHAT I SAID
      ======================================

      SECOND
      What I said in part to Apollonius was this:

      "That yourself and all those older HIs you allude to ....."

      NO WHERE TO I REFER TO EX-INITIATES NOR DETRACTORS OF ECKANKAR LIKE YOURSELF. 


      =======================================

      THIRD
      I know nothing about Apollonius, I have no idea if he is an ex- or current eckist, nor do i 

      know if he is or was ever an HI, I have not read any prior posts of his on ESA. 

      MY MESSAGE was specifically directed at what this person SAID on your board in the message 

      I was replying to PLUS his comments beforehand in the EXACT SAME THREAD. 

      AND THAT IS ALL. 

      ========================================

      FOURTH
      What Apollonius had said in part, is this: 

      In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
      However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
      Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
      realization. It was, they said, 

      "The Sound current that was the MOST important part of the students growth, not a Master or 

      even a LEM". 

      PLUS Apollonius put that as a VERBATIM QUOTE by KNOWN HIs in ECKANKAR .. not EX-Eckists in 

      1973 !!!!! Helen Frye, Pat Henderson, Charlie Wallace, Millie Moore, Helen Baird.  

      ===============================

      FIFTH
      So these are the people that Apollonius was ALLUDING TO ... he was not alluding to "other 

      ex hi initiates." in ANY WAY. 

      IN FACT he was doing the opposite, and as such he was also STILL SUPPORTING OF OTHER KNOWN 

      HIGH INITIATES IN ECKANKAR TODAY WHO SAY THE SAME THINGS STILL IN 2011 & 2012. 

      As I said .. Patti Simpson herself said the same thin to me via email last year about this 

      baby and the bath water *story*. 

      ================================

      SIXTH
      So, my critical comments, and my blunt opinions were being directed to that group of HIGH 

      INITIATES who have since the 1970's and continuing to this day that operate INSIDE Eckankar 

      covertly, and yet who:

      DID NOT DO NOT SUPPORT THE ORGANISATIONAL LEADERSHIP.

      DID NOT AND DO NOT SUPPORT DARWIN OR HAROLD AS GODMEN, MAHANTA, ALL KNOWING GURUS OF 

      ECKANKAR.

      DISAGREED TO AT THE CORE ABOUT THE TEACHING AS PRESENTED AND CHANGED BY SRI HAROLD OVER THE 

      YEARS.

      AND DID NOT AND DO NOT AGREE WITH THE TEACHINGS & DOCTRINE AS WRITTEN BY PAUL IN LATER 

      YEARS OF HIS LIFE EITHER. 

      and yet they remained High Initiate Eckists and members of Eckankar

      and yet they selected a small number of Eckists to SHARE what they KNEW, whilst ignoring 

      everyone else in Eckankar around the world. 

      Since the 1970s to this day they have been working as a COVERT behind the scenes group of 

      self-appointed CARRIERS OF THE TRUE FAITH to share these *true teachings* of Paul as they 

      saw them .. and to hell with al the rest who were being LED ASTRAY by the likes of Harold, 

      by the High Initiates who did NOT know what these people knew, and left to fend for 

      themselves.... and like so many EX-High Initiates like yourself were left to WORK IT OUT 

      FOR YOURSELF .. AND GO THRU HELL ON EARTH IN THE PROCESS. 

      ===========================

      SEVENTH

      Now, please note the names mentioned by Apollonius, and you will see them all mentioned 

      here, plus many more including GAIL TWITCHELL

      http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FEZyGDN71BoJ:bluestreak.pbworks.com/f/

      Obits.xls+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

      Patti Simpsons name is not mentioned but she was also a SECRET MEMBER OF THIS TEAM who 

      accepted a VERSION of what the teachings as written by Paul, but have NEVER supported the 

      BULLSHIT that has followed after he died in 1971. 

      The other name not mentioned on this list but whom is also a KEY PLAYER in this SUB-SECT of 

      current members of ECKANKAR is Douglas Marman. 

      What defines this SUB-GROUP is that they are all 100% loyal to Paul Twitchell and core of 

      his teachings and methods. 

      Just as Apollonius also is trying to say to you and your group. He believes and accepts the 

      same thing. And rationalises it all away. 

      BEFORE someone is spoken to about these *higher-insider* SUB-Sect beliefs, their Bona-Fides 

      are checked with others in the group. They ask, things like is this person Sean TRUSTWORTHY 

      .. DOES HE GET IT .. OR IS HE A BLINDED LOYAL TRUE BELIEVER ECKISTS WHO LOOKS TO HAROLD AS 

      A TRUE MASTER and the rest of the *doctrine* literally?

      Once one appears to be also against PAUL himself, anyone who is overtly critical about the 

      Plagiarism etc, or doubt Paul .. will NOT GET in, and will NEVER be spoken to openly and 

      honestly about this SUB-set of Eckankar beliefs. You are on your own. 

      IOW, depending on the JUDGEMENT and the OPINIONS of these unknown people, will depend on 

      whether one gets past the Gate-keepers. 

      =======================

      EIGHTH
      The rub is this .... this sub-group are still not 100% truthful either. Doug may write a 

      book called the WHOLE TRUTH but they will never publicly say a word against Eckankar as a 

      whole, nor Harold Klemp specifically. For to do so would also undermine their beloved Paul 

      who can do no wrong, and is above criticism.  

      IOW they are have always been intent on saving the BABY .. no matter how much they also 

      KNOW and personally disagree with so much of the *doctrine* that Paul added in the last 

      years of his life. 

      IOW they speak out of both sides of their mouth as much as Harold does. They will only go 

      so far ... they will not tell it as it is except amongst themselves. 

      So even those that are given hints about their version of the *true teachings* they will 

      still spell it out plainly for the world to see, NOR for Harold or the others that are now 

      HIs and Eighth initiates and above but whom still follow Harold and todays Eckankar 

      blindly. 

      Doug calls it *poetry* in public. He gives subtle hints, that unless one can break thru the 

      bullshit on their own, they will never GET what he is really saying.
      ===================

      NINTH
      Apollonius is a classic example, except he is being anonymously critical of Harold. That is 

      the only difference here. he also may have LEFT Eckankar, but that is besides the point, 

      and I do not know anyway. I don't know who he or she is, and probably neither do you. 

      There is a pattern of behaviour to work out the key to who this inner covert core is. It 

      came through loud and clear in my email discussions with Patti Simpson. 

      They do not ever say Rebazar Tarzs or Sudar Singh nor any of the ECK masters are REAL (as 

      described by harold or in the teachings) nor suggest that one should go seek them out on 

      the inner. 

      They will avoid at all cost ANY overt criticisms of harold as the LEM Mahanta, but instead 

      will talk AROUND THE ISSUE, and drop it entirely. 

      They will openly point out errors and bad behaviour by power trip ego headed current HIs in 

      general, but will NEVER state that it is the Board and harold and ESC that have ANY 

      responsibility for these peoples individual actions and utter incompetence either. 

      They will attend ECK functions, and WS, and SEminars, they will give talks at Eck groups as 

      Doug has done in the NW, but they will NEVER speak highly of Harold himself, nor touch on 

      anything of harold's vesion of the teachings in any way. So Doug instead will speak about 

      Rumi and the Sufis, and other matters. and simply AVOID anything that might be percieved as 

      a disagreement with harold. 

      Doyg and others may well allude to Rumi as an ECk master in the *lineage* of Eckankar but 

      he will NOT point out that harold in his writings says something completely DIFFERENT. 

      THEIR INTENTION IS TO KEEP ECKANKAR ALIVE NO MATTER WHAT - NO MATTER WHAT HAROLD DOES TO 

      IT, NO MATTER WHAT CRAP GETS LAID ON UNSUSPECTING MEMBERS IN THE PROCESS. 

      And this has been in operation in a semi-organised shoot from mthe hip  approach for 

      decades. 

      Apollonius KNOWS this .. I can tell this by what he has said on your group, and that is why 

      I have NO respect for him nor this duplicitous game they play all over the world, on 

      Facebook, on your group, on a.r.e., and in local satsangs too. 

      and this is why I said what I said. 

      I said the same thing almost to Patti Simpson .. but given I knew she was dying at that 

      time I had to back off and give her a break. And no, no one *told me* she was dying either, 

      I just knew, and I gave her my farewells *poetically* and she got it! 

      ===================

      TENTH
      The bottom line in all this for is that a) there is a lot of truth in what these people say 

      about Paul and his teachings, b) it is impossible for the normal member to work it out on 

      their own though c)they are in fact all WELL-INTENTIONED, and they truly mean well and they 

      really believe that they are doing the RIGHT thing .. BUT I totally disagree with them on 

      this point, and the covert duplicitous nature of their activities WITHIN ECKANKAR.  

      personally I much prefer the TRUTH .. the whole truth and nothing but the truth. 

      And if people eckists or non-eckists, true believers or the most outspken detractor can't 

      handle it, then tough luck. 

      I will close with saying do NOT make assumptions about what I know for sure and what I ahve 

      been able to work out for myself. I am no prophet, I do NOT know everything, but I my view 

      is that I know enough over the years to say what I have said. 

      THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION ONLY ... on some points I could be wrong, which ones I do not 

      know for certain because everything is overlaid with so much bullshit, so many lies, so 

      many omissions, so much distrust, so much PR spin n crap, no one could work it out for 

      sure. 

      BUT trust ones own instincts no matter how crazy it might seem, or what shit is laid upon 

      them by people who actually don't have a clue, and probably never will. 

      One last thing I will add is that Paul's many changes in his last few years, including the 

      far country were done on purpose as time bomb to blow up the teaching he had created. He 

      lost control of the Board in 1969 ... he knew that, and so he planted the seeds of its own 

      destruction. By the time Harold came along, he was utterly clueless, and he still is imho. 

      IMHO, yes what Apollonius says that one can grow and unfold within Eckankar folloiwng 

      Paul's teachings and methods is VERY true .. but that is NO EXCUSE ofr it;s existence 

      either .. for people can unfold ANYWHERE, in any religion, or in no religion .. so this is 

      a COP OUT, based upon nothing but a worshipful attitude towards Paul himself. 

      I doubt very many of those in this specialy chosen group of Paul's even know Paul for who 

      he was either, and they sure do not ever think that what he did in those last years with 

      the Mahanta thing, and all the eck masters, and the chosen people line, and all that jazz 

      was on purpose. 

      Some of those in the past were simply TOO CLOSE to Paul, and make the error that because 

      they were they KNEW him better than anyone else, let alone why he may have said and done 

      some of the things he did. 

      But people swallow their beliefs WHOLE .. and forever and a day repeat it to others as if 

      it is the god's honest truth. In the process they mislead others. 

       And even if some of them see this as AI do, they still refuse to be critical of Paul and 

      tell the truth about this. Whereas I can see Paul's probably GOOD intentions and yet still 

      be critical of HOW he did it, whilst still being grateful for the things he COMPILED 

      together in the one place. 

      But that is NO justification for the continuation of an Eckankar which is NOTHING like Paul 

      was trying as flawed as he was to get through to people. This approach is purely an 

      AMERICAN socially entrenched behavioural pattern and belief. It isn't true and it isn't 

      justifiable in my world. 

      Those that knowingly continue to pretend to be a member of eckanakr today, and yet only 

      give lip service to harold and HIS modern teaching AS IF it is the same thing as the core 

      of Paul's teaching, good intentioned or not, are cowards in my humble opinion. 

      These refuse to stand up and speak truth. 

      It starts at GAIL and works it way through the HIs levels in AMERICA. Anyone outside of 

      America who does not get access to these people via the Internet (and it is only a very 

      few, i know that) are simply cut off and being sold a load of horseshit by Eckankar and 

      their own RESAs and so on down the country organisations. 

      ========================

      ELEVENTH & LAST

      Paul's BABY died with him. No one since has had a clue, at least not anyone connected with 

      everyday leadership positions in Eckankar; bar this covert group which developed over time 

      and continues to this day operating behind the scenes. 

      That BABY was put to rest inside a bath tub of bath water, and there it has rested ever 

      since for 40 years. 

      Follow the parable and the analogy properly and not the SPIN of it given out by Doug, 

      patti, all others unknown and Appllonius here. 

      What would be left in that bath tub, after forty years behind a locked door .. and what 

      chance would anyone have of being able to extract the essence of that baby in the congealed 

      mess of GOO now in the bath tub? 

      Everyone though is their own problem (as Paul said once) 

      People simply cannot think for themselves .. but it makes it far worse when people are 

      knowing being lied to, and having the TRUTH with held from them by people they trust .. and 

      people who should actually KNOW BETTER but are as misguided as anyone on this planet today. 

      and yeah, i do think I know what i know ... and yes I believe what i believe, and yes i 

      think i know far more than others ... but who doesn't in this crap game about Eckankar .... 

      therefore I say trust YOUR OWN INSTINCTS ... believe whatever it is YOU CHOOSE, but leave 

      me out of it. 

      To Apollonius and all those others I say again .. you are all cowards scared of your own 

      shadows, but especially of the slight possibility that someone like Paul or Harold will 

      call them a black magician or something else equally bad for criticising paul's dead *baby* 

      .. what weak crap. What a self-deluded load of BS. 

      Good intentions also pave the way to hell .. and everyone that has suffered as a DIRECT 

      result of THEIR SILENCE for up to 40 years or so are karmicly responsible for the harm 

      done. 

      That is my view and opinion today. I maintain my own right to change it any time i wish, 

      when i decide that I am wrong in some way. 

      In the meantime, I do not believe nor trust, nor accept anything anyone else has to say 

      about Paul and his eckankar, i sleep well at night. 

      and it is NOT my responsibility to help ahyone else in or outside of eckanakr to work this 

      out. I didn;t cause it, I didn;t support it, and thus am a clean skin. 

      In the process I have learnt a lot by myself for myself. But one thing I know, and that is 

      I have NEVER lied publicly to anyone about my own beliefs and knowledge or opinions. 

      I din;t have to .. people are so busy projecting their own self-delusions and lack of 

      comprehension onto me (ie Janice as one example) or so busy telling the world what the 

      truth is .. ala Doug or Lane .. it;s been impossible to get a word in ... 

      LOL 

      take care prometheus

      You would archive much more if you told the world who you really were, I know what pseudo 

      name you went by on the TS site, that ain't hard to work out. 

      and you'd achieve more if you became far more SPECIFIC in detail about your own experiences 

      and knowledge from the FIRST PETSON only ... and you'd also achieve a lot more if the 

      history you conveyed was more accurate and based on fact not hand me down info. 

      thanks sean ... 

      PS I am saving this for my own use ... it might end up on a.r.e. or in a history book one 

      day

      PPS you can do what you like with it ... but I repeat that this is a personal letter from 

      me to you for YOUR own benefit alone. make your own choices, but be prepared whatever the 

      consequences are for your own actions. Think before you leap. There's a lot more going on 

      than meets the eye pal, and it has always been like this. 

      CHOW 


    • Janice Pfeiffer
      Certainly your writing is not concise and is very difficult to follow.  Your words appear hostile and belligerent.  Instead of being critical of others you
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 16, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Certainly your writing is not concise and is very difficult to follow.  Your words appear hostile and belligerent.  Instead of being critical of others you now want to make out like I am an idiot because you feel misunderstood.  You speak of being responsible for what you say yet you can't treat others respectfully.  From my experience, that is pretty typical of eckist in general.  If  you are no longer in with the eckankar crowd, why don't you at least try and drop the abusive crap?  I did speak toward you in a respectful manner.  Whether you agree or not, I don't care.  What you think of me matters not.  At this time I tell you that you ramble on like an idiot.  Don't bother to respond to me.  I freely admit I don't intend to wade through ten paragraphs of pure dribble. 

        --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Gnothe Seauton <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

        From: Gnothe Seauton <prometheus_973@...>
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Clarification about Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message
        To: "eckankarsurvivorsanonymous@yahoogroups.com" <eckankarsurvivorsanonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 1:19 AM

         

        ----- Forwarded Message -----
        From: Santim Vah <santimvah@...>
        To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous-owner@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous-owner@yahoogroups.com>
        Cc: "SantimVah @ Yahoo" <santimvah@...>
        Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:39 PM
        Subject: PRIVATE - Clarification about Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message



        Clarification about Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message


        Apollonious2k,

        "Why throw the baby out with the bath water?"
        Hi Prometheus, 

        This email is to you PERSONALLY to clarify exactly what was my intention in my posted 

        message a couple weeks ago. 

        I send it to you because it is YOUR group I posted to, and you may do whatever you wish 

        with the following information, to accept it or reject do anything you want with it. For I 

        really do not care. 

        I don't care because personally I am fed up with people who are unable to read and 

        understand the most simplest of things. At least they are simple to me, and as obvious as 

        the light of the Sun. Unfortunately so many people have such blinders on, have so many 

        preconceived beliefs that they project their own muddled confused minds and scrambled 

        beliefs onto everyone else but see what is right in front of their face in plain english. 

        However, I must be responsible for my own words and how they are twisted and have been 

        misconstrued publicly, but I do this only for your own benefit, just in case others beliefs 

        & words have influenced your own thinking as well. It is the least I can do, and then know 

        that I won't bother you again. 

        I do not care what others think or believe about me, but especially when they can't even 

        understand what it is I have actually said, and what those words actually mean, which was 

        the real intent of my post which has now been twisted out of all recognition by someone who 

        thinks they KNOW better than I know what I said and what I meant. 

        =======================================

        FIRST
        Janice relied to my post, in part with this:

        "Mr Arundell,
        I feel you are being way too harsh on Apollonius and the other ex hi initiates. ....."

        THAT IS TOTALLY INCORRECT AND A GROSS MIS-REPRESENTATION OF WHAT I SAID
        ======================================

        SECOND
        What I said in part to Apollonius was this:

        "That yourself and all those older HIs you allude to ....."

        NO WHERE TO I REFER TO EX-INITIATES NOR DETRACTORS OF ECKANKAR LIKE YOURSELF. 


        =======================================

        THIRD
        I know nothing about Apollonius, I have no idea if he is an ex- or current eckist, nor do i 

        know if he is or was ever an HI, I have not read any prior posts of his on ESA. 

        MY MESSAGE was specifically directed at what this person SAID on your board in the message 

        I was replying to PLUS his comments beforehand in the EXACT SAME THREAD. 

        AND THAT IS ALL. 

        ========================================

        FOURTH
        What Apollonius had said in part, is this: 

        In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
        However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
        Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
        realization. It was, they said, 

        "The Sound current that was the MOST important part of the students growth, not a Master or 

        even a LEM". 

        PLUS Apollonius put that as a VERBATIM QUOTE by KNOWN HIs in ECKANKAR .. not EX-Eckists in 

        1973 !!!!! Helen Frye, Pat Henderson, Charlie Wallace, Millie Moore, Helen Baird.  

        ===============================

        FIFTH
        So these are the people that Apollonius was ALLUDING TO ... he was not alluding to "other 

        ex hi initiates." in ANY WAY. 

        IN FACT he was doing the opposite, and as such he was also STILL SUPPORTING OF OTHER KNOWN 

        HIGH INITIATES IN ECKANKAR TODAY WHO SAY THE SAME THINGS STILL IN 2011 & 2012. 

        As I said .. Patti Simpson herself said the same thin to me via email last year about this 

        baby and the bath water *story*. 

        ================================

        SIXTH
        So, my critical comments, and my blunt opinions were being directed to that group of HIGH 

        INITIATES who have since the 1970's and continuing to this day that operate INSIDE Eckankar 

        covertly, and yet who:

        DID NOT DO NOT SUPPORT THE ORGANISATIONAL LEADERSHIP.

        DID NOT AND DO NOT SUPPORT DARWIN OR HAROLD AS GODMEN, MAHANTA, ALL KNOWING GURUS OF 

        ECKANKAR.

        DISAGREED TO AT THE CORE ABOUT THE TEACHING AS PRESENTED AND CHANGED BY SRI HAROLD OVER THE 

        YEARS.

        AND DID NOT AND DO NOT AGREE WITH THE TEACHINGS & DOCTRINE AS WRITTEN BY PAUL IN LATER 

        YEARS OF HIS LIFE EITHER. 

        and yet they remained High Initiate Eckists and members of Eckankar

        and yet they selected a small number of Eckists to SHARE what they KNEW, whilst ignoring 

        everyone else in Eckankar around the world. 

        Since the 1970s to this day they have been working as a COVERT behind the scenes group of 

        self-appointed CARRIERS OF THE TRUE FAITH to share these *true teachings* of Paul as they 

        saw them .. and to hell with al the rest who were being LED ASTRAY by the likes of Harold, 

        by the High Initiates who did NOT know what these people knew, and left to fend for 

        themselves.... and like so many EX-High Initiates like yourself were left to WORK IT OUT 

        FOR YOURSELF .. AND GO THRU HELL ON EARTH IN THE PROCESS. 

        ===========================

        SEVENTH

        Now, please note the names mentioned by Apollonius, and you will see them all mentioned 

        here, plus many more including GAIL TWITCHELL

        http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FEZyGDN71BoJ:bluestreak.pbworks.com/f/

        Obits.xls+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

        Patti Simpsons name is not mentioned but she was also a SECRET MEMBER OF THIS TEAM who 

        accepted a VERSION of what the teachings as written by Paul, but have NEVER supported the 

        BULLSHIT that has followed after he died in 1971. 

        The other name not mentioned on this list but whom is also a KEY PLAYER in this SUB-SECT of 

        current members of ECKANKAR is Douglas Marman. 

        What defines this SUB-GROUP is that they are all 100% loyal to Paul Twitchell and core of 

        his teachings and methods. 

        Just as Apollonius also is trying to say to you and your group. He believes and accepts the 

        same thing. And rationalises it all away. 

        BEFORE someone is spoken to about these *higher-insider* SUB-Sect beliefs, their Bona-Fides 

        are checked with others in the group. They ask, things like is this person Sean TRUSTWORTHY 

        .. DOES HE GET IT .. OR IS HE A BLINDED LOYAL TRUE BELIEVER ECKISTS WHO LOOKS TO HAROLD AS 

        A TRUE MASTER and the rest of the *doctrine* literally?

        Once one appears to be also against PAUL himself, anyone who is overtly critical about the 

        Plagiarism etc, or doubt Paul .. will NOT GET in, and will NEVER be spoken to openly and 

        honestly about this SUB-set of Eckankar beliefs. You are on your own. 

        IOW, depending on the JUDGEMENT and the OPINIONS of these unknown people, will depend on 

        whether one gets past the Gate-keepers. 

        =======================

        EIGHTH
        The rub is this .... this sub-group are still not 100% truthful either. Doug may write a 

        book called the WHOLE TRUTH but they will never publicly say a word against Eckankar as a 

        whole, nor Harold Klemp specifically. For to do so would also undermine their beloved Paul 

        who can do no wrong, and is above criticism.  

        IOW they are have always been intent on saving the BABY .. no matter how much they also 

        KNOW and personally disagree with so much of the *doctrine* that Paul added in the last 

        years of his life. 

        IOW they speak out of both sides of their mouth as much as Harold does. They will only go 

        so far ... they will not tell it as it is except amongst themselves. 

        So even those that are given hints about their version of the *true teachings* they will 

        still spell it out plainly for the world to see, NOR for Harold or the others that are now 

        HIs and Eighth initiates and above but whom still follow Harold and todays Eckankar 

        blindly. 

        Doug calls it *poetry* in public. He gives subtle hints, that unless one can break thru the 

        bullshit on their own, they will never GET what he is really saying.
        ===================

        NINTH
        Apollonius is a classic example, except he is being anonymously critical of Harold. That is 

        the only difference here. he also may have LEFT Eckankar, but that is besides the point, 

        and I do not know anyway. I don't know who he or she is, and probably neither do you. 

        There is a pattern of behaviour to work out the key to who this inner covert core is. It 

        came through loud and clear in my email discussions with Patti Simpson. 

        They do not ever say Rebazar Tarzs or Sudar Singh nor any of the ECK masters are REAL (as 

        described by harold or in the teachings) nor suggest that one should go seek them out on 

        the inner. 

        They will avoid at all cost ANY overt criticisms of harold as the LEM Mahanta, but instead 

        will talk AROUND THE ISSUE, and drop it entirely. 

        They will openly point out errors and bad behaviour by power trip ego headed current HIs in 

        general, but will NEVER state that it is the Board and harold and ESC that have ANY 

        responsibility for these peoples individual actions and utter incompetence either. 

        They will attend ECK functions, and WS, and SEminars, they will give talks at Eck groups as 

        Doug has done in the NW, but they will NEVER speak highly of Harold himself, nor touch on 

        anything of harold's vesion of the teachings in any way. So Doug instead will speak about 

        Rumi and the Sufis, and other matters. and simply AVOID anything that might be percieved as 

        a disagreement with harold. 

        Doyg and others may well allude to Rumi as an ECk master in the *lineage* of Eckankar but 

        he will NOT point out that harold in his writings says something completely DIFFERENT. 

        THEIR INTENTION IS TO KEEP ECKANKAR ALIVE NO MATTER WHAT - NO MATTER WHAT HAROLD DOES TO 

        IT, NO MATTER WHAT CRAP GETS LAID ON UNSUSPECTING MEMBERS IN THE PROCESS. 

        And this has been in operation in a semi-organised shoot from mthe hip  approach for 

        decades. 

        Apollonius KNOWS this .. I can tell this by what he has said on your group, and that is why 

        I have NO respect for him nor this duplicitous game they play all over the world, on 

        Facebook, on your group, on a.r.e., and in local satsangs too. 

        and this is why I said what I said. 

        I said the same thing almost to Patti Simpson .. but given I knew she was dying at that 

        time I had to back off and give her a break. And no, no one *told me* she was dying either, 

        I just knew, and I gave her my farewells *poetically* and she got it! 

        ===================

        TENTH
        The bottom line in all this for is that a) there is a lot of truth in what these people say 

        about Paul and his teachings, b) it is impossible for the normal member to work it out on 

        their own though c)they are in fact all WELL-INTENTIONED, and they truly mean well and they 

        really believe that they are doing the RIGHT thing .. BUT I totally disagree with them on 

        this point, and the covert duplicitous nature of their activities WITHIN ECKANKAR.  

        personally I much prefer the TRUTH .. the whole truth and nothing but the truth. 

        And if people eckists or non-eckists, true believers or the most outspken detractor can't 

        handle it, then tough luck. 

        I will close with saying do NOT make assumptions about what I know for sure and what I ahve 

        been able to work out for myself. I am no prophet, I do NOT know everything, but I my view 

        is that I know enough over the years to say what I have said. 

        THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION ONLY ... on some points I could be wrong, which ones I do not 

        know for certain because everything is overlaid with so much bullshit, so many lies, so 

        many omissions, so much distrust, so much PR spin n crap, no one could work it out for 

        sure. 

        BUT trust ones own instincts no matter how crazy it might seem, or what shit is laid upon 

        them by people who actually don't have a clue, and probably never will. 

        One last thing I will add is that Paul's many changes in his last few years, including the 

        far country were done on purpose as time bomb to blow up the teaching he had created. He 

        lost control of the Board in 1969 ... he knew that, and so he planted the seeds of its own 

        destruction. By the time Harold came along, he was utterly clueless, and he still is imho. 

        IMHO, yes what Apollonius says that one can grow and unfold within Eckankar folloiwng 

        Paul's teachings and methods is VERY true .. but that is NO EXCUSE ofr it;s existence 

        either .. for people can unfold ANYWHERE, in any religion, or in no religion .. so this is 

        a COP OUT, based upon nothing but a worshipful attitude towards Paul himself. 

        I doubt very many of those in this specialy chosen group of Paul's even know Paul for who 

        he was either, and they sure do not ever think that what he did in those last years with 

        the Mahanta thing, and all the eck masters, and the chosen people line, and all that jazz 

        was on purpose. 

        Some of those in the past were simply TOO CLOSE to Paul, and make the error that because 

        they were they KNEW him better than anyone else, let alone why he may have said and done 

        some of the things he did. 

        But people swallow their beliefs WHOLE .. and forever and a day repeat it to others as if 

        it is the god's honest truth. In the process they mislead others. 

         And even if some of them see this as AI do, they still refuse to be critical of Paul and 

        tell the truth about this. Whereas I can see Paul's probably GOOD intentions and yet still 

        be critical of HOW he did it, whilst still being grateful for the things he COMPILED 

        together in the one place. 

        But that is NO justification for the continuation of an Eckankar which is NOTHING like Paul 

        was trying as flawed as he was to get through to people. This approach is purely an 

        AMERICAN socially entrenched behavioural pattern and belief. It isn't true and it isn't 

        justifiable in my world. 

        Those that knowingly continue to pretend to be a member of eckanakr today, and yet only 

        give lip service to harold and HIS modern teaching AS IF it is the same thing as the core 

        of Paul's teaching, good intentioned or not, are cowards in my humble opinion. 

        These refuse to stand up and speak truth. 

        It starts at GAIL and works it way through the HIs levels in AMERICA. Anyone outside of 

        America who does not get access to these people via the Internet (and it is only a very 

        few, i know that) are simply cut off and being sold a load of horseshit by Eckankar and 

        their own RESAs and so on down the country organisations. 

        ========================

        ELEVENTH & LAST

        Paul's BABY died with him. No one since has had a clue, at least not anyone connected with 

        everyday leadership positions in Eckankar; bar this covert group which developed over time 

        and continues to this day operating behind the scenes. 

        That BABY was put to rest inside a bath tub of bath water, and there it has rested ever 

        since for 40 years. 

        Follow the parable and the analogy properly and not the SPIN of it given out by Doug, 

        patti, all others unknown and Appllonius here. 

        What would be left in that bath tub, after forty years behind a locked door .. and what 

        chance would anyone have of being able to extract the essence of that baby in the congealed 

        mess of GOO now in the bath tub? 

        Everyone though is their own problem (as Paul said once) 

        People simply cannot think for themselves .. but it makes it far worse when people are 

        knowing being lied to, and having the TRUTH with held from them by people they trust .. and 

        people who should actually KNOW BETTER but are as misguided as anyone on this planet today. 

        and yeah, i do think I know what i know ... and yes I believe what i believe, and yes i 

        think i know far more than others ... but who doesn't in this crap game about Eckankar .... 

        therefore I say trust YOUR OWN INSTINCTS ... believe whatever it is YOU CHOOSE, but leave 

        me out of it. 

        To Apollonius and all those others I say again .. you are all cowards scared of your own 

        shadows, but especially of the slight possibility that someone like Paul or Harold will 

        call them a black magician or something else equally bad for criticising paul's dead *baby* 

        .. what weak crap. What a self-deluded load of BS. 

        Good intentions also pave the way to hell .. and everyone that has suffered as a DIRECT 

        result of THEIR SILENCE for up to 40 years or so are karmicly responsible for the harm 

        done. 

        That is my view and opinion today. I maintain my own right to change it any time i wish, 

        when i decide that I am wrong in some way. 

        In the meantime, I do not believe nor trust, nor accept anything anyone else has to say 

        about Paul and his eckankar, i sleep well at night. 

        and it is NOT my responsibility to help ahyone else in or outside of eckanakr to work this 

        out. I didn;t cause it, I didn;t support it, and thus am a clean skin. 

        In the process I have learnt a lot by myself for myself. But one thing I know, and that is 

        I have NEVER lied publicly to anyone about my own beliefs and knowledge or opinions. 

        I din;t have to .. people are so busy projecting their own self-delusions and lack of 

        comprehension onto me (ie Janice as one example) or so busy telling the world what the 

        truth is .. ala Doug or Lane .. it;s been impossible to get a word in ... 

        LOL 

        take care prometheus

        You would archive much more if you told the world who you really were, I know what pseudo 

        name you went by on the TS site, that ain't hard to work out. 

        and you'd achieve more if you became far more SPECIFIC in detail about your own experiences 

        and knowledge from the FIRST PETSON only ... and you'd also achieve a lot more if the 

        history you conveyed was more accurate and based on fact not hand me down info. 

        thanks sean ... 

        PS I am saving this for my own use ... it might end up on a.r.e. or in a history book one 

        day

        PPS you can do what you like with it ... but I repeat that this is a personal letter from 

        me to you for YOUR own benefit alone. make your own choices, but be prepared whatever the 

        consequences are for your own actions. Think before you leap. There's a lot more going on 

        than meets the eye pal, and it has always been like this. 

        CHOW 


      • etznab@aol.com
        Part of what came to me lately in some of these posts is the question of: What did members do who knew about certain things, but chose to be passive followers
        Message 3 of 3 , Feb 16, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Part of what came to me lately in some of these posts is the question
          of: What did members do who knew about certain things, but chose to be
          passive followers instead?

          I think a lot of people probably found out a lot about what they didn't
          know after reading the books and research by people who were not
          members of Eckankar, or were ex-members. The question I see though is:
          Why didn't the members and clergy who knew things ..? Why didn't they
          share with the new people and members?

          This is not a condemnation of those who can honestly plead ignorance,
          or that they really didn't know about a great many things. It is about
          those who did know, but remained quiet, for whatever reason.

          So who was there when myself, or anybody else, was a new member to
          Eckankar that could share with us some of the things most of us would
          find out only decades later?

          There was Harold Klemp around 1984 who wrote about Death of an Ideal
          and about the writings of Paul Twitchell. This was not long after
          Darwin Gross was ousted, and when Harold got his hands on the "Paul
          Twitchell library".

          One of the things I remember that Harold Klemp said was: "It's more fun
          to find out yourself rather than be told."

          See article (at link): Looking at the Past for Spiritual Lessons, by
          Harold Klemp for quote context.

          http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man2.html

          I guess the argument I saw, or what I see now, begs the question about
          whether it really is more fun. At least, Is it "more fun" to find out
          some things most Eckists learned only after decades as members (things
          that really mattered), when somebody (members and clergy) that did know
          could have told them sooner?

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Janice Pfeiffer <jepfeiffer@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thu, Feb 16, 2012 9:01 pm
          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Clarification about Klemp
          Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message

           
          Certainly your writing is not concise and is very difficult to follow. 
          Your words appear hostile and belligerent.  Instead of being critical
          of others you now want to make out like I am an idiot because you feel
          misunderstood.  You speak of being responsible for what you say yet you
          can't treat others respectfully.  From my experience, that is pretty
          typical of eckist in general.  If  you are no longer in with the
          eckankar crowd, why don't you at least try and drop the abusive crap? 
          I did speak toward you in a respectful manner.  Whether you agree or
          not, I don't care.  What you think of me matters not.  At this time I
          tell you that you ramble on like an idiot.  Don't bother to respond to
          me.  I freely admit I don't intend to wade through ten paragraphs of
          pure dribble. 

          --- On Fri, 2/17/12, Gnothe Seauton <prometheus_973@...>
          wrote:

          From: Gnothe Seauton <prometheus_973@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Clarification about Klemp
          Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message
          To: "eckankarsurvivorsanonymous@yahoogroups.com"
          <eckankarsurvivorsanonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Friday, February 17, 2012, 1:19 AM

           


          ----- Forwarded Message -----
          From: Santim Vah <santimvah@...>
          To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous-owner@yahoogroups.com"
          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous-owner@yahoogroups.com>
          Cc: "SantimVah @ Yahoo" <santimvah@...>
          Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 9:39 PM
          Subject: PRIVATE - Clarification about Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud &
          Apollonius Message




          Clarification about Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud & Apollonius Message


          Apollonious2k,

          "Why throw the baby out with the bath water?"
          Hi Prometheus, 

          This email is to you PERSONALLY to clarify exactly what was my
          intention in my posted 

          message a couple weeks ago. 

          I send it to you because it is YOUR group I posted to, and you may do
          whatever you wish 

          with the following information, to accept it or reject do anything you
          want with it. For I 

          really do not care. 

          I don't care because personally I am fed up with people who are unable
          to read and 

          understand the most simplest of things. At least they are simple to me,
          and as obvious as 

          the light of the Sun. Unfortunately so many people have such blinders
          on, have so many 

          preconceived beliefs that they project their own muddled confused minds
          and scrambled 

          beliefs onto everyone else but see what is right in front of their face
          in plain english. 

          However, I must be responsible for my own words and how they are
          twisted and have been 

          misconstrued publicly, but I do this only for your own benefit, just in
          case others beliefs 

          & words have influenced your own thinking as well. It is the least I
          can do, and then know 

          that I won't bother you again. 

          I do not care what others think or believe about me, but especially
          when they can't even 

          understand what it is I have actually said, and what those words
          actually mean, which was 

          the real intent of my post which has now been twisted out of all
          recognition by someone who 

          thinks they KNOW better than I know what I said and what I meant. 

          =======================================

          FIRST
          Janice relied to my post, in part with this:

          "Mr Arundell,
          I feel you are being way too harsh on Apollonius and the other ex hi
          initiates. ....."

          THAT IS TOTALLY INCORRECT AND A GROSS MIS-REPRESENTATION OF WHAT I SAID
          ======================================

          SECOND
          What I said in part to Apollonius was this:

          "That yourself and all those older HIs you allude to ....."

          NO WHERE TO I REFER TO EX-INITIATES NOR DETRACTORS OF ECKANKAR LIKE
          YOURSELF. 


          =======================================

          THIRD
          I know nothing about Apollonius, I have no idea if he is an ex- or
          current eckist, nor do i 

          know if he is or was ever an HI, I have not read any prior posts of his
          on ESA. 

          MY MESSAGE was specifically directed at what this person SAID on your
          board in the message 

          I was replying to PLUS his comments beforehand in the EXACT SAME
          THREAD. 

          AND THAT IS ALL. 

          ========================================

          FOURTH
          What Apollonius had said in part, is this: 

          In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
          However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later
          Millie
          Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a
          better
          realization. It was, they said, 

          "The Sound current that was the MOST important part of the students
          growth, not a Master or 

          even a LEM". 

          PLUS Apollonius put that as a VERBATIM QUOTE by KNOWN HIs in ECKANKAR
          .. not EX-Eckists in 

          1973 !!!!! Helen Frye, Pat Henderson, Charlie Wallace, Millie Moore,
          Helen Baird.  

          ===============================

          FIFTH
          So these are the people that Apollonius was ALLUDING TO ... he was not
          alluding to "other 

          ex hi initiates." in ANY WAY. 

          IN FACT he was doing the opposite, and as such he was also STILL
          SUPPORTING OF OTHER KNOWN 

          HIGH INITIATES IN ECKANKAR TODAY WHO SAY THE SAME THINGS STILL IN 2011
          & 2012. 

          As I said .. Patti Simpson herself said the same thin to me via email
          last year about this 

          baby and the bath water *story*. 

          ================================

          SIXTH
          So, my critical comments, and my blunt opinions were being directed to
          that group of HIGH 

          INITIATES who have since the 1970's and continuing to this day that
          operate INSIDE Eckankar 

          covertly, and yet who:

          DID NOT DO NOT SUPPORT THE ORGANISATIONAL LEADERSHIP.

          DID NOT AND DO NOT SUPPORT DARWIN OR HAROLD AS GODMEN, MAHANTA, ALL
          KNOWING GURUS OF 

          ECKANKAR.

          DISAGREED TO AT THE CORE ABOUT THE TEACHING AS PRESENTED AND CHANGED BY
          SRI HAROLD OVER THE 

          YEARS.

          AND DID NOT AND DO NOT AGREE WITH THE TEACHINGS & DOCTRINE AS WRITTEN
          BY PAUL IN LATER 

          YEARS OF HIS LIFE EITHER. 

          and yet they remained High Initiate Eckists and members of Eckankar

          and yet they selected a small number of Eckists to SHARE what they
          KNEW, whilst ignoring 

          everyone else in Eckankar around the world. 

          Since the 1970s to this day they have been working as a COVERT behind
          the scenes group of 

          self-appointed CARRIERS OF THE TRUE FAITH to share these *true
          teachings* of Paul as they 

          saw them .. and to hell with al the rest who were being LED ASTRAY by
          the likes of Harold, 

          by the High Initiates who did NOT know what these people knew, and left
          to fend for 

          themselves.... and like so many EX-High Initiates like yourself were
          left to WORK IT OUT 

          FOR YOURSELF .. AND GO THRU HELL ON EARTH IN THE PROCESS. 

          ===========================

          SEVENTH

          Now, please note the names mentioned by Apollonius, and you will see
          them all mentioned 

          here, plus many more including GAIL TWITCHELL

          http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache
          :FEZyGDN71BoJ:bluestreak.pbworks.com/f/

          Obits.xls+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

          Patti Simpsons name is not mentioned but she was also a SECRET MEMBER
          OF THIS TEAM who 

          accepted a VERSION of what the teachings as written by Paul, but have
          NEVER supported the 

          BULLSHIT that has followed after he died in 1971. 

          The other name not mentioned on this list but whom is also a KEY PLAYER
          in this SUB-SECT of 

          current members of ECKANKAR is Douglas Marman. 

          What defines this SUB-GROUP is that they are all 100% loyal to Paul
          Twitchell and core of 

          his teachings and methods. 

          Just as Apollonius also is trying to say to you and your group. He
          believes and accepts the 

          same thing. And rationalises it all away. 

          BEFORE someone is spoken to about these *higher-insider* SUB-Sect
          beliefs, their Bona-Fides 

          are checked with others in the group. They ask, things like is this
          person Sean TRUSTWORTHY 

          .. DOES HE GET IT .. OR IS HE A BLINDED LOYAL TRUE BELIEVER ECKISTS WHO
          LOOKS TO HAROLD AS 

          A TRUE MASTER and the rest of the *doctrine* literally?

          Once one appears to be also against PAUL himself, anyone who is overtly
          critical about the 

          Plagiarism etc, or doubt Paul .. will NOT GET in, and will NEVER be
          spoken to openly and 

          honestly about this SUB-set of Eckankar beliefs. You are on your own. 

          IOW, depending on the JUDGEMENT and the OPINIONS of these unknown
          people, will depend on 

          whether one gets past the Gate-keepers. 

          =======================

          EIGHTH
          The rub is this .... this sub-group are still not 100% truthful either.
          Doug may write a 

          book called the WHOLE TRUTH but they will never publicly say a word
          against Eckankar as a 

          whole, nor Harold Klemp specifically. For to do so would also undermine
          their beloved Paul 

          who can do no wrong, and is above criticism.  

          IOW they are have always been intent on saving the BABY .. no matter
          how much they also 

          KNOW and personally disagree with so much of the *doctrine* that Paul
          added in the last 

          years of his life. 

          IOW they speak out of both sides of their mouth as much as Harold does.
          They will only go 

          so far ... they will not tell it as it is except amongst themselves. 

          So even those that are given hints about their version of the *true
          teachings* they will 

          still spell it out plainly for the world to see, NOR for Harold or the
          others that are now 

          HIs and Eighth initiates and above but whom still follow Harold and
          todays Eckankar 

          blindly. 

          Doug calls it *poetry* in public. He gives subtle hints, that unless
          one can break thru the 

          bullshit on their own, they will never GET what he is really saying.
          ===================

          NINTH
          Apollonius is a classic example, except he is being anonymously
          critical of Harold. That is 

          the only difference here. he also may have LEFT Eckankar, but that is
          besides the point, 

          and I do not know anyway. I don't know who he or she is, and probably
          neither do you. 

          There is a pattern of behaviour to work out the key to who this inner
          covert core is. It 

          came through loud and clear in my email discussions with Patti Simpson. 

          They do not ever say Rebazar Tarzs or Sudar Singh nor any of the ECK
          masters are REAL (as 

          described by harold or in the teachings) nor suggest that one should go
          seek them out on 

          the inner. 

          They will avoid at all cost ANY overt criticisms of harold as the LEM
          Mahanta, but instead 

          will talk AROUND THE ISSUE, and drop it entirely. 

          They will openly point out errors and bad behaviour by power trip ego
          headed current HIs in 

          general, but will NEVER state that it is the Board and harold and ESC
          that have ANY 

          responsibility for these peoples individual actions and utter
          incompetence either. 

          They will attend ECK functions, and WS, and SEminars, they will give
          talks at Eck groups as 

          Doug has done in the NW, but they will NEVER speak highly of Harold
          himself, nor touch on 

          anything of harold's vesion of the teachings in any way. So Doug
          instead will speak about 

          Rumi and the Sufis, and other matters. and simply AVOID anything that
          might be percieved as 

          a disagreement with harold. 

          Doyg and others may well allude to Rumi as an ECk master in the
          *lineage* of Eckankar but 

          he will NOT point out that harold in his writings says something
          completely DIFFERENT. 

          THEIR INTENTION IS TO KEEP ECKANKAR ALIVE NO MATTER WHAT - NO MATTER
          WHAT HAROLD DOES TO 

          IT, NO MATTER WHAT CRAP GETS LAID ON UNSUSPECTING MEMBERS IN THE
          PROCESS. 

          And this has been in operation in a semi-organised shoot from mthe hip
           approach for 

          decades. 

          Apollonius KNOWS this .. I can tell this by what he has said on your
          group, and that is why 

          I have NO respect for him nor this duplicitous game they play all over
          the world, on 

          Facebook, on your group, on a.r.e., and in local satsangs too. 

          and this is why I said what I said. 

          I said the same thing almost to Patti Simpson .. but given I knew she
          was dying at that 

          time I had to back off and give her a break. And no, no one *told me*
          she was dying either, 

          I just knew, and I gave her my farewells *poetically* and she got it! 

          ===================

          TENTH
          The bottom line in all this for is that a) there is a lot of truth in
          what these people say 

          about Paul and his teachings, b) it is impossible for the normal member
          to work it out on 

          their own though c)they are in fact all WELL-INTENTIONED, and they
          truly mean well and they 

          really believe that they are doing the RIGHT thing .. BUT I totally
          disagree with them on 

          this point, and the covert duplicitous nature of their activities
          WITHIN ECKANKAR.  

          personally I much prefer the TRUTH .. the whole truth and nothing but
          the truth. 

          And if people eckists or non-eckists, true believers or the most
          outspken detractor can't 

          handle it, then tough luck. 

          I will close with saying do NOT make assumptions about what I know for
          sure and what I ahve 

          been able to work out for myself. I am no prophet, I do NOT know
          everything, but I my view 

          is that I know enough over the years to say what I have said. 

          THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION ONLY ... on some points I could be wrong,
          which ones I do not 

          know for certain because everything is overlaid with so much bullshit,
          so many lies, so 

          many omissions, so much distrust, so much PR spin n crap, no one could
          work it out for 

          sure. 

          BUT trust ones own instincts no matter how crazy it might seem, or what
          shit is laid upon 

          them by people who actually don't have a clue, and probably never will. 

          One last thing I will add is that Paul's many changes in his last few
          years, including the 

          far country were done on purpose as time bomb to blow up the teaching
          he had created. He 

          lost control of the Board in 1969 ... he knew that, and so he planted
          the seeds of its own 

          destruction. By the time Harold came along, he was utterly clueless,
          and he still is imho. 

          IMHO, yes what Apollonius says that one can grow and unfold within
          Eckankar folloiwng 

          Paul's teachings and methods is VERY true .. but that is NO EXCUSE ofr
          it;s existence 

          either .. for people can unfold ANYWHERE, in any religion, or in no
          religion .. so this is 

          a COP OUT, based upon nothing but a worshipful attitude towards Paul
          himself. 

          I doubt very many of those in this specialy chosen group of Paul's even
          know Paul for who 

          he was either, and they sure do not ever think that what he did in
          those last years with 

          the Mahanta thing, and all the eck masters, and the chosen people line,
          and all that jazz 

          was on purpose. 

          Some of those in the past were simply TOO CLOSE to Paul, and make the
          error that because 

          they were they KNEW him better than anyone else, let alone why he may
          have said and done 

          some of the things he did. 

          But people swallow their beliefs WHOLE .. and forever and a day repeat
          it to others as if 

          it is the god's honest truth. In the process they mislead others. 

           And even if some of them see this as AI do, they still refuse to be
          critical of Paul and 

          tell the truth about this. Whereas I can see Paul's probably GOOD
          intentions and yet still 

          be critical of HOW he did it, whilst still being grateful for the
          things he COMPILED 

          together in the one place. 

          But that is NO justification for the continuation of an Eckankar which
          is NOTHING like Paul 

          was trying as flawed as he was to get through to people. This approach
          is purely an 

          AMERICAN socially entrenched behavioural pattern and belief. It isn't
          true and it isn't 

          justifiable in my world. 

          Those that knowingly continue to pretend to be a member of eckanakr
          today, and yet only 

          give lip service to harold and HIS modern teaching AS IF it is the same
          thing as the core 

          of Paul's teaching, good intentioned or not, are cowards in my humble
          opinion. 

          These refuse to stand up and speak truth. 

          It starts at GAIL and works it way through the HIs levels in AMERICA.
          Anyone outside of 

          America who does not get access to these people via the Internet (and
          it is only a very 

          few, i know that) are simply cut off and being sold a load of horseshit
          by Eckankar and 

          their own RESAs and so on down the country organisations. 

          ========================

          ELEVENTH & LAST

          Paul's BABY died with him. No one since has had a clue, at least not
          anyone connected with 

          everyday leadership positions in Eckankar; bar this covert group which
          developed over time 

          and continues to this day operating behind the scenes. 

          That BABY was put to rest inside a bath tub of bath water, and there it
          has rested ever 

          since for 40 years. 

          Follow the parable and the analogy properly and not the SPIN of it
          given out by Doug, 

          patti, all others unknown and Appllonius here. 

          What would be left in that bath tub, after forty years behind a locked
          door .. and what 

          chance would anyone have of being able to extract the essence of that
          baby in the congealed 

          mess of GOO now in the bath tub? 

          Everyone though is their own problem (as Paul said once) 

          People simply cannot think for themselves .. but it makes it far worse
          when people are 

          knowing being lied to, and having the TRUTH with held from them by
          people they trust .. and 

          people who should actually KNOW BETTER but are as misguided as anyone
          on this planet today. 

          and yeah, i do think I know what i know ... and yes I believe what i
          believe, and yes i 

          think i know far more than others ... but who doesn't in this crap game
          about Eckankar .... 

          therefore I say trust YOUR OWN INSTINCTS ... believe whatever it is YOU
          CHOOSE, but leave 

          me out of it. 

          To Apollonius and all those others I say again .. you are all cowards
          scared of your own 

          shadows, but especially of the slight possibility that someone like
          Paul or Harold will 

          call them a black magician or something else equally bad for
          criticising paul's dead *baby* 

          .. what weak crap. What a self-deluded load of BS. 

          Good intentions also pave the way to hell .. and everyone that has
          suffered as a DIRECT 

          result of THEIR SILENCE for up to 40 years or so are karmicly
          responsible for the harm 

          done. 

          That is my view and opinion today. I maintain my own right to change it
          any time i wish, 

          when i decide that I am wrong in some way. 

          In the meantime, I do not believe nor trust, nor accept anything anyone
          else has to say 

          about Paul and his eckankar, i sleep well at night. 

          and it is NOT my responsibility to help ahyone else in or outside of
          eckanakr to work this 

          out. I didn;t cause it, I didn;t support it, and thus am a clean skin. 

          In the process I have learnt a lot by myself for myself. But one thing
          I know, and that is 

          I have NEVER lied publicly to anyone about my own beliefs and knowledge
          or opinions. 

          I din;t have to .. people are so busy projecting their own
          self-delusions and lack of 

          comprehension onto me (ie Janice as one example) or so busy telling the
          world what the 

          truth is .. ala Doug or Lane .. it;s been impossible to get a word in
          ... 

          LOL 

          take care prometheus

          You would archive much more if you told the world who you really were,
          I know what pseudo 

          name you went by on the TS site, that ain't hard to work out. 

          and you'd achieve more if you became far more SPECIFIC in detail about
          your own experiences 

          and knowledge from the FIRST PETSON only ... and you'd also achieve a
          lot more if the 

          history you conveyed was more accurate and based on fact not hand me
          down info. 

          thanks sean ... 

          PS I am saving this for my own use ... it might end up on a.r.e. or in
          a history book one 

          day

          PPS you can do what you like with it ... but I repeat that this is a
          personal letter from 

          me to you for YOUR own benefit alone. make your own choices, but be
          prepared whatever the 

          consequences are for your own actions. Think before you leap. There's a
          lot more going on 

          than meets the eye pal, and it has always been like this. 

          CHOW 
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