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Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

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  • apollonius2k
    Hi Prometheus, Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for being led astray by Eckankar. If you listen to the reasoning of today s Hi s
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
      Hi Prometheus,

      Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for being led astray by Eckankar. If you listen to the reasoning of today's Hi's (well, the older ones anyway) as to why they still follow Eckankar, this rhetorical question will many times be heard as the answer, "Why throw the baby (Eckankar) out with the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)? I have never let HK "off the hook". He has had 30 years to set the record straight regarding Paul's made up hierarchy and writings, and is yet to do it. Also, It appears that he is bereft of spiritual experiences to write about as multiple times I caught him using my experiences and others in his HI teaching lessons.

      In the early days we read and were told that the books and myth Paul Twitchell built was absolute truth. For me, there had been many prior years of extra-physical experiences including the blue and other lights dating back to when I was three years old. I really didn't care about the myth or the LEM so much as the wealth of research contained therein. How the concepts bounced around inside my little sphere of consciousness and took me to a different place. These ideas could be tried and discarded or kept as "My" individual truths.

      As I rose through the ranks of Eckankar there was a peculiar thing that I noticed. The Mahdi were not practicing what they preached and it seemed like I was always in their cross hairs. This special attention and the energy they spewed uncontrolled, allowed me to become much stronger. There were many arguments that ensued all along the way, even with Darwin. My point was always that it is the individual path that counts, not the group or worship of a leader. If the LEM didn't know about me personally (which I discovered to be true the first time I met Darwin) then I was on my own.

      Prometheus said,
      >Yes, we all need to cut the
      > ties to any and all religions.
      > Religions are distortions
      > of Truth that are designed
      > around mass consumption.
      >
      > A group consciousness,
      > and even that within a
      > "circle of initiation," will
      > always be lower or stunted
      > than what the individual
      > can/will achieve when free
      > and unimpeded. Of course,
      > all initiations, of any sort,
      > are fraudulent!
      >
      > Consciousness is not handed
      > out by a demigod and printed
      > on an EK membership card.

      Agreed

      To my knowledge, Rumi couched his verbiage in the terms of the day. According to what I have researched, Rumi's teacher Shamsi was murdered for blasphemy against Islam.

      Though I can honestly say I never met any of Paul Twitchell's masters (and I doubt he did either) there have been times in my life when a "helper" appeared out of nowhere and guided me in a new direction with new ideas to think about. Whether I call them masters or any other term is irrelevant to me, they assisted my path and that's all that was needed.


      Cheers,

      Apollonius

      ---
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Apollonius and All, I ll respond to your comments below. apollonius wrote: Hi Prometheus, Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 6, 2012
        Hello Apollonius and All,
        I'll respond to your
        comments below.

        apollonius wrote:
        Hi Prometheus,

        Many, and rightfully so,
        have strong feelings of
        resentment for being led
        astray by Eckankar.

        If you listen to the reasoning
        of today's Hi's (well, the
        older ones anyway) as to
        why they still follow Eckankar,
        this rhetorical question
        will many times be heard
        as the answer, "Why throw
        the baby (Eckankar) out with
        the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)?

        I have never let HK "off the
        hook". He has had 30 years
        to set the record straight
        regarding Paul's made up
        hierarchy and writings, and
        is yet to do it. Also, It appears
        that he is bereft of spiritual
        experiences to write about
        as multiple times I caught
        him using my experiences
        and others in his HI teaching
        lessons.



        *****************************
        ME: The truth as to why longtime
        H.I.s have remained in Eckankar
        has nothing to do with Truth. It's
        all about fear and ego! They fear
        not having their EK friends and
        family members in their lives but,
        also, not having their admirers.
        Plus, look at all of that time and
        money they have invested and
        the initiations they've received.
        Many were "grandfathered" in
        without having to jump through
        the hoops that HK requires today.
        Besides, there's always the hope
        of getting that 8th or 9th Outer
        initiation. This is why the "baby"
        isn't thrown out with the dirty
        bath water... and why the bath
        water is used over and over,
        again and again.
        ******************************


        In the early days we read and
        were told that the books and
        myth Paul Twitchell built was
        absolute truth. For me, there
        had been many prior years of
        extra-physical experiences
        including the blue and other
        lights dating back to when I
        was three years old. I really
        didn't care about the myth or
        the LEM so much as the wealth
        of research contained therein.
        How the concepts bounced
        around inside my little sphere
        of consciousness and took me
        to a different place. These ideas
        could be tried and discarded
        or kept as "My" individual
        truths.



        ****************************
        ME: Twitchell, as a conman,
        learned that many people
        have many things in common.
        Everyone dreams. And if one
        places attention upon the
        mysteries and myth of the
        spiritual realm they will dream
        and "see" things. I'm not
        saying that your experiences,
        especially, as a child weren't
        real, but I also know that
        parents and adults can
        mess with what a child thinks
        is real. Sometimes it's done
        out of "fun" by a somewhat
        deviant parent or relative.
        Sometimes, the fun is more
        of a cultural/religious thing
        like with Santa Claus or the
        Easter Bunny.
        *****************************


        As I rose through the
        ranks of Eckankar there
        was a peculiar thing that
        I noticed. The Mahdi were
        not practicing what they
        preached and it seemed
        like I was always in their
        cross hairs. This special
        attention and the energy
        they spewed uncontrolled,
        allowed me to become
        much stronger. There
        were many arguments
        that ensued all along the
        way, even with Darwin.
        My point was always
        that it is the individual
        path that counts, not the
        group or worship of a
        leader. If the LEM didn't
        know about me personally
        (which I discovered to be
        true the first time I met
        Darwin) then I was on my
        own.


        ***************************
        ME: Yes, there's a lot of
        ego associated with being
        an H.I. (leader). Ego was
        always rationalized away
        and looked upon as a
        "teaching tool" or as a "coat"
        that could be put on and
        taken off. It wasn't true
        but it did help to explain
        away the personality changes.
        I know that when I was at
        ECK events, in leadership
        roles, I almost always came
        across as being serious.
        I knew that I was being
        watched and evaluated
        and had to be careful to
        portray myself well. I, also,
        had to be cognizant of the
        proper procedures to follow
        which are spelled out in
        the "Guidelines." All of
        this was quite stressful.
        Why? Because I saw first
        hand what could happen
        to those who fell out-of-
        grace with the RESA.

        Yes, Klemp wouldn't know
        anything about his H.I.s,
        either, if it wasn't for the
        reports his RESAs send to
        the ESC. Everyone has a
        file and black marks and
        red flags can have initiations
        and positions put on a
        three-five year (or longer)
        hold. Sometimes there are
        things put into your ESC
        file and sometimes it's
        just that one RESA.
        ******************************
        MORE COMMENTS BELOW
        ******************************

        Prometheus said,
        >Yes, we all need to cut the
        > ties to any and all religions.
        > Religions are distortions
        > of Truth that are designed
        > around mass consumption.
        >
        > A group consciousness,
        > and even that within a
        > "circle of initiation," will
        > always be lower or stunted
        > than what the individual
        > can/will achieve when free
        > and unimpeded. Of course,
        > all initiations, of any sort,
        > are fraudulent!
        >
        > Consciousness is not handed
        > out by a demigod and printed
        > on an EK membership card.

        Agreed

        To my knowledge, Rumi
        couched his verbiage
        in the terms of the day.
        According to what I have
        researched, Rumi's teacher
        Shamsi was murdered
        for blasphemy against
        Islam.


        ****************************
        ME: It's usually thought that
        Rumi's companions killed Shams
        because they were jealous of
        him. After all, much of Rumi's
        poetry was inspired by the love
        he had for his friend and master.....
        Shams.

        However, Shams was Sunni.
        So, it could be that he was
        murdered by the more orthodox
        Shiites. IMO-Only a Shiite would
        say that Shams (a Sunni) was
        blasphemous.
        ********************************

        Though I can honestly say
        I never met any of Paul
        Twitchell's masters (and
        I doubt he did either) there
        have been times in my
        life when a "helper" appeared
        out of nowhere and guided
        me in a new direction with
        new ideas to think about.
        Whether I call them masters
        or any other term is irrelevant
        to me, they assisted my path
        and that's all that was needed.

        ******************************
        ME: I, too, have had experiences
        throughout life where it seemed
        I was being protected (mostly from
        myself) or was receiving guidance.
        Early on, Jesus would appear to
        me. I was a seeker and always
        seemed to be beseeching some
        spiritual authority for answers/
        guidance. But most people do
        the same! That's how/why the
        gods were created and, one reason,
        as to why religion was created.
        The other reasons for religions
        is to control the masses by
        alleviating their fears and giving
        hope of a better, pain free, afterlife.
        Plus, it's a money maker for those
        at the top of the hierarchy.


        Anyway, it was no surprise to
        see "EK Masters" in my dreams.
        It's funny that Eckankar validates
        itself with a handful of testimonials
        from people (innocent newbies)
        who claim they met a certain EK
        Master "prior" to joining Eckankar!
        It's kind of like (not really) St. Paul's
        experience with seeing Jesus while
        on the road to Damascus. Except
        Paul/Saul was blinded for three
        days. Hey, is that, and the Trinity,
        how Paul came up with/invented
        the, superstitious, EK Principle
        of the Threes?
        *********************************


        Cheers,

        Apollonius
      • Russ Rodnick
        I won t disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.   experiences
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 7, 2012
          I won't disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.
           
          experiences further are phenomenal. I do not recommend believing that these are signs of knowing what truth is. they point the way in my opinion to something which is deeper, and more complete.
           
          But too the veracity of one's teachers cannot be questioned. and if these teachers are merely unconscous transmitters of ideas that they do not really understand themselves and not understanding misuse these ideas to gratify their own egos howver sweet these egotistical liars are you as the sincere student would probably be able to use these methods and ascertain some truths but how deeply and completely and why would you want to stay in Eckankar after looking behind the curtain?
          I worry that phenomena can give a false security and Eckankar gives plenty of false security.
           
          I used to think compromising thoughts too, and for some it might prove to be a good. but it is a trap too. That's the thing I would be caution about.
           
          The search for meaning and truth is all important to me. Deeper realization of being is possible with an independant attitude. Study of the self, being and personality.
           
          Anyway, truth is not easy though sometimes it seems so, in my experience.
          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 11:35 PM
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

           
          Hello Apollonius and All,
          I'm not wrong. One cannot
          find enlightenment via the
          the false teachings of Eckankar.
          It's called delusional, wishful,
          and magical thinking.

          However, it's possible that
          one might find enlightenment
          despite Eckankar and by seeing
          the truth about Eckankar and
          that of all religions and group
          manmade dogmas. Man created
          God in man's image and man
          created religion as well. Women
          created mankind, but men still
          won't give them credit! LOL!

          As for the Blue Light thingie.
          That's something that many
          people will see irregardless of
          Eckankar. It's been proven and
          written about and that's how
          PT found it. He stole everything
          and probably never had an
          original thought worth anything.

          Remember, the liar Twitchell
          didn't create the Mahanta or
          the Blue Light of the Mahanta
          until Jan. 1969. This has been
          proven via past Wisdom Notes.

          Yes, I too knew Helen and
          Millie (Workman) Moore.
          Did you, too, go to HK's
          Satsang class with Helen
          across the desert of LV?

          Just because you had a
          personal spiritual experience
          and connect that to some
          of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
          same charismatic conman,
          doesn't mean you should
          give Klemp a free pass. He's
          done much more harm than
          good by making Eckists
          codependent upon him.

          The lies do matter!

          If you haven't figured that out
          you're as deluded as the rest.

          That one experience you had,
          long ago, was probably "caused"
          by your belief in Eckankar and
          influenced by other people and
          the nature of the situation. All
          of you were looking/seeking for
          something, a sign, and a feeling
          and it's what you and your mental
          impressions created/deciphered
          and found.

          I'm not saying that we don't
          or can't have real spiritual
          experiences. But, when we
          do it certainly isn't because
          of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
          belief and person are not
          spiritual conduits! Just the
          opposite! Belief in Eckankar
          and in "the Mahanta" will
          only produce deluding Astral
          experiences which appear
          greater and "spiritual" in
          the mind's eye!

          I, too, have experienced
          sounds like running water,
          thunder, buzzing bees,
          violins and flutes with
          blue, yellow, golden and
          bright white lights and
          more! So what! That's
          merely the phenomenal
          world! Much was experienced
          prior to, some during,
          and even greater things
          after Eckankar!

          If you believe in the KAL,
          then, deceivers and liars
          who misrepresent truth
          are of the KAL.

          Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
          and Klemp with their distortions
          and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
          and Ruhani Satsang would be of
          the KAL because they have taken
          upon themselves to use the trickster
          trappings and characteristics of KAL.

          But, all religions are of the KAL
          or Satan. These religions that
          Twitchell stole dogma from are
          just as deceitful and off the mark
          spiritually.

          What Eckankar is selling and
          what you are receiving is not
          Truth! If you don't understand
          the ramifications of this, then,
          you are as deluded and lost as
          they are. Enjoy your peyote!

          Prometheus
          BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
          This was who he prayed to and
          wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
          have been all that enlightened. Mo
          wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
          Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
          "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
          physical plane is of the "ECK" too
          correct?

          apollonius wrote:
          Greetings Prometheus and all,

          I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
          disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
          Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
          However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
          Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
          realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
          part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
          by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
          flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
          magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

          The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
          professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
          thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
          know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
          me comfort.

          Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
          making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
          have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
          Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
          this day.

          Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
          own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
          do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
          with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
          recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
          advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
          allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

          Keep up the good work,

          From the Heart,

          Apollonius

          >
          > It's interesting to see
          > and hear what the religious
          > tricksters and conmen
          > come up with in order
          > to rationalize their guilt
          > away. They will claim to
          > be providing a "service"
          > for people... to comfort
          > them and take away their
          > fears.
          >
          >
          > Klemp certainly gives Lip
          > Service to this claim:
          >
          > How do the teachings
          > of Eckankar help people?
          >
          > The most important
          > concept we need to
          > get across is the continuity
          > of life and going from
          > this world to the next
          > and beyond. People worry
          > most about meeting
          > the end of this life. [end]
          >
          >
          > Really? I disagree!
          >
          > Now, it could be that
          > Klemp is concerned with
          > death since he was born
          > in 1942. He's getting closer
          > and closer to the grave.
          >
          > And, I'm sure that many
          > from the Baby Boomer
          > generation (the generation
          > Klemp dislikes most) are
          > thinking more about their
          > health and the end of life.
          >
          > But there are those living
          > in politically unstable countries
          > who have more immediate
          > fears concerning day-to-
          > day life and freedoms.
          >
          > What many people
          > are concerned about,
          > here and now, in this
          > present time versus the
          > future is having enough
          > money to pay the bills in
          > order to continue and
          > maintain a healthy life
          > style. And, not being
          > alone and, thus, dying
          > alone is an important
          > issue too.
          >
          > Let's face it. People
          > need God more than
          > God needs them, unless,
          > you're Klemp... a false
          > God called Mahanta!
          >
          > Klemp needs his flock
          > of suckers. Even if HK
          > stepped aside for the
          > next conman to take
          > over he'd still be writing
          > his trashy books and
          > be posing as a God of
          > some sorts. Maybe he'd
          > move to some private
          > island and start rumors
          > that he had been reborn
          > as Rebazar had. Klemp
          > wants to continue the
          > myth to be remembered!
          >
          > Young people certainly
          > aren't concerned about
          > death... they're concerned
          > about finding a spouse,
          > and having a good job,
          > a place to live, and money
          > for more education and
          > a car, and gas.... maybe
          > a new computer or i-phone/
          > droid.
          >
          > In truth, HK is trying
          > to purge himself of
          > his Guilt for not only
          > having deficiencies
          > as a God/Master but
          > for his continued deceit.
          >
          > Consequently, he'll boost
          > his ego and self-important
          > image and, thus, feel
          > good hand important
          > that he's providing a
          > "spiritual" service for
          > the New Age segment
          > of the population who
          > are attracted to Eckankar's
          > (Twitchell's) Western
          > twist and edit of Radhasoami
          > and Ruhani Satsang.
          >
          > But, it (religion) is all
          > the same... just different
          > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
          > Eckankar is no exception!
          >
          > HK has millions squirreled
          > away in an off-shore
          > account so money and
          > financial security is not
          > a problem for him. Time
          > is Klemp's big enemy
          > and fear. That's why he
          > wants to be remembered
          > as being a great spiritual
          > master even though his
          > followers are deluded.
          >
          > Don't Eckists "worship"
          > Klemp, their Mahanta?
          > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
          > to trick them! But, he
          > sees it as being for their
          > own good... he's helping
          > them to find peace and
          > happiness without fear.
          > Eckists should believe
          > in themselves, as Soul,
          > and not give-up Soul's
          > authority to decide and
          > know. Initiations are
          > bogus anyway and are
          > simply used to dangle
          > in front of people....
          > that's the real "plus
          > element" in Eckankar.
          > There's Service, Coin,
          > Time, Promises of
          > Protection and Guidance
          > "plus" that next initiation!
          >
          > Look at the Spiritual
          > Exercises of EK that
          > are designed around
          > this purpose. Eckists
          > will dream of, contemplate
          > upon, and beseech
          > their God/Mahanta
          > for all sorts of things.
          >
          > These S.E.s are designed
          > for Eckists to see HK's
          > physical image don't
          > they? Thus, the Mahanta
          > brainwashing is reenforced
          > over and over on a daily
          > basis.
          >
          > And, this is why it's so
          > difficult to escape from
          > codependency. There
          > can never be real/truthful
          > "Spiritual Freedom" for
          > Eckists. They will always
          > need Klemp... he's their
          > crutch and their meth.
          >
          > Prometheus



        • Janice Pfeiffer
          I did a lot of self discovery and study of various kinds of spiritual paths before I ever heard of eckankar.  It didn t prevent me from being suckered in. 
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 7, 2012
            I did a lot of self discovery and study of various kinds of spiritual paths before I ever heard of eckankar.  It didn't prevent me from being suckered in.  Further more, I didn't see the truth until  I was told by an actual HI how things really happened with initiations.  I don't know why he told me except he felt some compassion for my confusion and some how knew I needed real answers instead of more eck jargon.  At this point, I don't see any sense in blaming others who were mislead no matter how they performed as eckist or how they are handling their past associations with eckankar now.  You do become brain washed and it takes a lot of will power to give it up.   Eckankar is a world unto itself.  It is the perpetrators and those in Minneapolis who are keeping the deception going.  If any one feels a need to express their anger in any way, I feel it is best placed on the so called leaders of eckankar.  jepfeiffer

            --- On Tue, 2/7/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

            From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
            Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud
            To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
            Date: Tuesday, February 7, 2012, 10:41 PM

             
            I won't disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.
             
            experiences further are phenomenal. I do not recommend believing that these are signs of knowing what truth is. they point the way in my opinion to something which is deeper, and more complete.
             
            But too the veracity of one's teachers cannot be questioned. and if these teachers are merely unconscous transmitters of ideas that they do not really understand themselves and not understanding misuse these ideas to gratify their own egos howver sweet these egotistical liars are you as the sincere student would probably be able to use these methods and ascertain some truths but how deeply and completely and why would you want to stay in Eckankar after looking behind the curtain?
            I worry that phenomena can give a false security and Eckankar gives plenty of false security.
             
            I used to think compromising thoughts too, and for some it might prove to be a good. but it is a trap too. That's the thing I would be caution about.
             
            The search for meaning and truth is all important to me. Deeper realization of being is possible with an independant attitude. Study of the self, being and personality.
             
            Anyway, truth is not easy though sometimes it seems so, in my experience.
            From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 11:35 PM
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

             
            Hello Apollonius and All,
            I'm not wrong. One cannot
            find enlightenment via the
            the false teachings of Eckankar.
            It's called delusional, wishful,
            and magical thinking.

            However, it's possible that
            one might find enlightenment
            despite Eckankar and by seeing
            the truth about Eckankar and
            that of all religions and group
            manmade dogmas. Man created
            God in man's image and man
            created religion as well. Women
            created mankind, but men still
            won't give them credit! LOL!

            As for the Blue Light thingie.
            That's something that many
            people will see irregardless of
            Eckankar. It's been proven and
            written about and that's how
            PT found it. He stole everything
            and probably never had an
            original thought worth anything.

            Remember, the liar Twitchell
            didn't create the Mahanta or
            the Blue Light of the Mahanta
            until Jan. 1969. This has been
            proven via past Wisdom Notes.

            Yes, I too knew Helen and
            Millie (Workman) Moore.
            Did you, too, go to HK's
            Satsang class with Helen
            across the desert of LV?

            Just because you had a
            personal spiritual experience
            and connect that to some
            of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
            same charismatic conman,
            doesn't mean you should
            give Klemp a free pass. He's
            done much more harm than
            good by making Eckists
            codependent upon him.

            The lies do matter!

            If you haven't figured that out
            you're as deluded as the rest.

            That one experience you had,
            long ago, was probably "caused"
            by your belief in Eckankar and
            influenced by other people and
            the nature of the situation. All
            of you were looking/seeking for
            something, a sign, and a feeling
            and it's what you and your mental
            impressions created/deciphered
            and found.

            I'm not saying that we don't
            or can't have real spiritual
            experiences. But, when we
            do it certainly isn't because
            of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
            belief and person are not
            spiritual conduits! Just the
            opposite! Belief in Eckankar
            and in "the Mahanta" will
            only produce deluding Astral
            experiences which appear
            greater and "spiritual" in
            the mind's eye!

            I, too, have experienced
            sounds like running water,
            thunder, buzzing bees,
            violins and flutes with
            blue, yellow, golden and
            bright white lights and
            more! So what! That's
            merely the phenomenal
            world! Much was experienced
            prior to, some during,
            and even greater things
            after Eckankar!

            If you believe in the KAL,
            then, deceivers and liars
            who misrepresent truth
            are of the KAL.

            Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
            and Klemp with their distortions
            and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
            and Ruhani Satsang would be of
            the KAL because they have taken
            upon themselves to use the trickster
            trappings and characteristics of KAL.

            But, all religions are of the KAL
            or Satan. These religions that
            Twitchell stole dogma from are
            just as deceitful and off the mark
            spiritually.

            What Eckankar is selling and
            what you are receiving is not
            Truth! If you don't understand
            the ramifications of this, then,
            you are as deluded and lost as
            they are. Enjoy your peyote!

            Prometheus
            BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
            This was who he prayed to and
            wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
            have been all that enlightened. Mo
            wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
            Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
            "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
            physical plane is of the "ECK" too
            correct?

            apollonius wrote:
            Greetings Prometheus and all,

            I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
            disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
            Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
            However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
            Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
            realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
            part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
            by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
            flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
            magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

            The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
            professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
            thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
            know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
            me comfort.

            Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
            making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
            have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
            Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
            this day.

            Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
            own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
            do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
            with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
            recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
            advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
            allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

            Keep up the good work,

            From the Heart,

            Apollonius

            >
            > It's interesting to see
            > and hear what the religious
            > tricksters and conmen
            > come up with in order
            > to rationalize their guilt
            > away. They will claim to
            > be providing a "service"
            > for people... to comfort
            > them and take away their
            > fears.
            >
            >
            > Klemp certainly gives Lip
            > Service to this claim:
            >
            > How do the teachings
            > of Eckankar help people?
            >
            > The most important
            > concept we need to
            > get across is the continuity
            > of life and going from
            > this world to the next
            > and beyond. People worry
            > most about meeting
            > the end of this life. [end]
            >
            >
            > Really? I disagree!
            >
            > Now, it could be that
            > Klemp is concerned with
            > death since he was born
            > in 1942. He's getting closer
            > and closer to the grave.
            >
            > And, I'm sure that many
            > from the Baby Boomer
            > generation (the generation
            > Klemp dislikes most) are
            > thinking more about their
            > health and the end of life.
            >
            > But there are those living
            > in politically unstable countries
            > who have more immediate
            > fears concerning day-to-
            > day life and freedoms.
            >
            > What many people
            > are concerned about,
            > here and now, in this
            > present time versus the
            > future is having enough
            > money to pay the bills in
            > order to continue and
            > maintain a healthy life
            > style. And, not being
            > alone and, thus, dying
            > alone is an important
            > issue too.
            >
            > Let's face it. People
            > need God more than
            > God needs them, unless,
            > you're Klemp... a false
            > God called Mahanta!
            >
            > Klemp needs his flock
            > of suckers. Even if HK
            > stepped aside for the
            > next conman to take
            > over he'd still be writing
            > his trashy books and
            > be posing as a God of
            > some sorts. Maybe he'd
            > move to some private
            > island and start rumors
            > that he had been reborn
            > as Rebazar had. Klemp
            > wants to continue the
            > myth to be remembered!
            >
            > Young people certainly
            > aren't concerned about
            > death... they're concerned
            > about finding a spouse,
            > and having a good job,
            > a place to live, and money
            > for more education and
            > a car, and gas.... maybe
            > a new computer or i-phone/
            > droid.
            >
            > In truth, HK is trying
            > to purge himself of
            > his Guilt for not only
            > having deficiencies
            > as a God/Master but
            > for his continued deceit.
            >
            > Consequently, he'll boost
            > his ego and self-important
            > image and, thus, feel
            > good hand important
            > that he's providing a
            > "spiritual" service for
            > the New Age segment
            > of the population who
            > are attracted to Eckankar's
            > (Twitchell's) Western
            > twist and edit of Radhasoami
            > and Ruhani Satsang.
            >
            > But, it (religion) is all
            > the same... just different
            > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
            > Eckankar is no exception!
            >
            > HK has millions squirreled
            > away in an off-shore
            > account so money and
            > financial security is not
            > a problem for him. Time
            > is Klemp's big enemy
            > and fear. That's why he
            > wants to be remembered
            > as being a great spiritual
            > master even though his
            > followers are deluded.
            >
            > Don't Eckists "worship"
            > Klemp, their Mahanta?
            > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
            > to trick them! But, he
            > sees it as being for their
            > own good... he's helping
            > them to find peace and
            > happiness without fear.
            > Eckists should believe
            > in themselves, as Soul,
            > and not give-up Soul's
            > authority to decide and
            > know. Initiations are
            > bogus anyway and are
            > simply used to dangle
            > in front of people....
            > that's the real "plus
            > element" in Eckankar.
            > There's Service, Coin,
            > Time, Promises of
            > Protection and Guidance
            > "plus" that next initiation!
            >
            > Look at the Spiritual
            > Exercises of EK that
            > are designed around
            > this purpose. Eckists
            > will dream of, contemplate
            > upon, and beseech
            > their God/Mahanta
            > for all sorts of things.
            >
            > These S.E.s are designed
            > for Eckists to see HK's
            > physical image don't
            > they? Thus, the Mahanta
            > brainwashing is reenforced
            > over and over on a daily
            > basis.
            >
            > And, this is why it's so
            > difficult to escape from
            > codependency. There
            > can never be real/truthful
            > "Spiritual Freedom" for
            > Eckists. They will always
            > need Klemp... he's their
            > crutch and their meth.
            >
            > Prometheus



          • apollonius2k
            Good points Prometheus!
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 8, 2012
              Good points Prometheus!

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Apollonius and All,
              > I'll respond to your
              > comments below.
              >
              > apollonius wrote:
              > Hi Prometheus,
              >
              > Many, and rightfully so,
              > have strong feelings of
              > resentment for being led
              > astray by Eckankar.
              >
              > If you listen to the reasoning
              > of today's Hi's (well, the
              > older ones anyway) as to
              > why they still follow Eckankar,
              > this rhetorical question
              > will many times be heard
              > as the answer, "Why throw
              > the baby (Eckankar) out with
              > the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)?
              >
              > I have never let HK "off the
              > hook". He has had 30 years
              > to set the record straight
              > regarding Paul's made up
              > hierarchy and writings, and
              > is yet to do it. Also, It appears
              > that he is bereft of spiritual
              > experiences to write about
              > as multiple times I caught
              > him using my experiences
              > and others in his HI teaching
              > lessons.
              >
              >
              >
              > *****************************
              > ME: The truth as to why longtime
              > H.I.s have remained in Eckankar
              > has nothing to do with Truth. It's
              > all about fear and ego! They fear
              > not having their EK friends and
              > family members in their lives but,
              > also, not having their admirers.
              > Plus, look at all of that time and
              > money they have invested and
              > the initiations they've received.
              > Many were "grandfathered" in
              > without having to jump through
              > the hoops that HK requires today.
              > Besides, there's always the hope
              > of getting that 8th or 9th Outer
              > initiation. This is why the "baby"
              > isn't thrown out with the dirty
              > bath water... and why the bath
              > water is used over and over,
              > again and again.
              > ******************************
              >
              >
              > In the early days we read and
              > were told that the books and
              > myth Paul Twitchell built was
              > absolute truth. For me, there
              > had been many prior years of
              > extra-physical experiences
              > including the blue and other
              > lights dating back to when I
              > was three years old. I really
              > didn't care about the myth or
              > the LEM so much as the wealth
              > of research contained therein.
              > How the concepts bounced
              > around inside my little sphere
              > of consciousness and took me
              > to a different place. These ideas
              > could be tried and discarded
              > or kept as "My" individual
              > truths.
              >
              >
              >
              > ****************************
              > ME: Twitchell, as a conman,
              > learned that many people
              > have many things in common.
              > Everyone dreams. And if one
              > places attention upon the
              > mysteries and myth of the
              > spiritual realm they will dream
              > and "see" things. I'm not
              > saying that your experiences,
              > especially, as a child weren't
              > real, but I also know that
              > parents and adults can
              > mess with what a child thinks
              > is real. Sometimes it's done
              > out of "fun" by a somewhat
              > deviant parent or relative.
              > Sometimes, the fun is more
              > of a cultural/religious thing
              > like with Santa Claus or the
              > Easter Bunny.
              > *****************************
              >
              >
              > As I rose through the
              > ranks of Eckankar there
              > was a peculiar thing that
              > I noticed. The Mahdi were
              > not practicing what they
              > preached and it seemed
              > like I was always in their
              > cross hairs. This special
              > attention and the energy
              > they spewed uncontrolled,
              > allowed me to become
              > much stronger. There
              > were many arguments
              > that ensued all along the
              > way, even with Darwin.
              > My point was always
              > that it is the individual
              > path that counts, not the
              > group or worship of a
              > leader. If the LEM didn't
              > know about me personally
              > (which I discovered to be
              > true the first time I met
              > Darwin) then I was on my
              > own.
              >
              >
              > ***************************
              > ME: Yes, there's a lot of
              > ego associated with being
              > an H.I. (leader). Ego was
              > always rationalized away
              > and looked upon as a
              > "teaching tool" or as a "coat"
              > that could be put on and
              > taken off. It wasn't true
              > but it did help to explain
              > away the personality changes.
              > I know that when I was at
              > ECK events, in leadership
              > roles, I almost always came
              > across as being serious.
              > I knew that I was being
              > watched and evaluated
              > and had to be careful to
              > portray myself well. I, also,
              > had to be cognizant of the
              > proper procedures to follow
              > which are spelled out in
              > the "Guidelines." All of
              > this was quite stressful.
              > Why? Because I saw first
              > hand what could happen
              > to those who fell out-of-
              > grace with the RESA.
              >
              > Yes, Klemp wouldn't know
              > anything about his H.I.s,
              > either, if it wasn't for the
              > reports his RESAs send to
              > the ESC. Everyone has a
              > file and black marks and
              > red flags can have initiations
              > and positions put on a
              > three-five year (or longer)
              > hold. Sometimes there are
              > things put into your ESC
              > file and sometimes it's
              > just that one RESA.
              > ******************************
              > MORE COMMENTS BELOW
              > ******************************
              >
              > Prometheus said,
              > >Yes, we all need to cut the
              > > ties to any and all religions.
              > > Religions are distortions
              > > of Truth that are designed
              > > around mass consumption.
              > >
              > > A group consciousness,
              > > and even that within a
              > > "circle of initiation," will
              > > always be lower or stunted
              > > than what the individual
              > > can/will achieve when free
              > > and unimpeded. Of course,
              > > all initiations, of any sort,
              > > are fraudulent!
              > >
              > > Consciousness is not handed
              > > out by a demigod and printed
              > > on an EK membership card.
              >
              > Agreed
              >
              > To my knowledge, Rumi
              > couched his verbiage
              > in the terms of the day.
              > According to what I have
              > researched, Rumi's teacher
              > Shamsi was murdered
              > for blasphemy against
              > Islam.
              >
              >
              > ****************************
              > ME: It's usually thought that
              > Rumi's companions killed Shams
              > because they were jealous of
              > him. After all, much of Rumi's
              > poetry was inspired by the love
              > he had for his friend and master.....
              > Shams.
              >
              > However, Shams was Sunni.
              > So, it could be that he was
              > murdered by the more orthodox
              > Shiites. IMO-Only a Shiite would
              > say that Shams (a Sunni) was
              > blasphemous.
              > ********************************
              >
              > Though I can honestly say
              > I never met any of Paul
              > Twitchell's masters (and
              > I doubt he did either) there
              > have been times in my
              > life when a "helper" appeared
              > out of nowhere and guided
              > me in a new direction with
              > new ideas to think about.
              > Whether I call them masters
              > or any other term is irrelevant
              > to me, they assisted my path
              > and that's all that was needed.
              >
              > ******************************
              > ME: I, too, have had experiences
              > throughout life where it seemed
              > I was being protected (mostly from
              > myself) or was receiving guidance.
              > Early on, Jesus would appear to
              > me. I was a seeker and always
              > seemed to be beseeching some
              > spiritual authority for answers/
              > guidance. But most people do
              > the same! That's how/why the
              > gods were created and, one reason,
              > as to why religion was created.
              > The other reasons for religions
              > is to control the masses by
              > alleviating their fears and giving
              > hope of a better, pain free, afterlife.
              > Plus, it's a money maker for those
              > at the top of the hierarchy.
              >
              >
              > Anyway, it was no surprise to
              > see "EK Masters" in my dreams.
              > It's funny that Eckankar validates
              > itself with a handful of testimonials
              > from people (innocent newbies)
              > who claim they met a certain EK
              > Master "prior" to joining Eckankar!
              > It's kind of like (not really) St. Paul's
              > experience with seeing Jesus while
              > on the road to Damascus. Except
              > Paul/Saul was blinded for three
              > days. Hey, is that, and the Trinity,
              > how Paul came up with/invented
              > the, superstitious, EK Principle
              > of the Threes?
              > *********************************
              >
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Apollonius
              >
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