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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

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  • Janice Pfeiffer
    Prometheus is right.  You see what you expect to see cuz you are programmed to associate all your experiences to eckankar.  About the blue light thing. 
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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      Prometheus is right.  You see what you expect to see cuz you are programmed to associate all your experiences to eckankar.  About the blue light thing.  Maybe they used some hidden blue lights to create the aura of blue.  I wouldn't put it past them.  They are such fakers.  Spiritual freedom in eckankar?  How can it be when from day one you are taught that you have a master.  I have never been more free than since I got out of eckankar.

      --- On Sat, 2/4/12, apollonius2k <apollonius2k@...> wrote:

      From: apollonius2k <apollonius2k@...>
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, February 4, 2012, 7:42 AM

       
      Greetings Prometheus and all,

      I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD. However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

      The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave me comfort.
      Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to this day.

      Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

      Keep up the good work,

      From the Heart,

      Apollonius

      >
      > It's interesting to see
      > and hear what the religious
      > tricksters and conmen
      > come up with in order
      > to rationalize their guilt
      > away. They will claim to
      > be providing a "service"
      > for people... to comfort
      > them and take away their
      > fears.
      >
      >
      > Klemp certainly gives Lip
      > Service to this claim:
      >
      > How do the teachings
      > of Eckankar help people?
      >
      > The most important
      > concept we need to
      > get across is the continuity
      > of life and going from
      > this world to the next
      > and beyond. People worry
      > most about meeting
      > the end of this life. [end]
      >
      >
      > Really? I disagree!
      >
      > Now, it could be that
      > Klemp is concerned with
      > death since he was born
      > in 1942. He's getting closer
      > and closer to the grave.
      >
      > And, I'm sure that many
      > from the Baby Boomer
      > generation (the generation
      > Klemp dislikes most) are
      > thinking more about their
      > health and the end of life.
      >
      > But there are those living
      > in politically unstable countries
      > who have more immediate
      > fears concerning day-to-
      > day life and freedoms.
      >
      > What many people
      > are concerned about,
      > here and now, in this
      > present time versus the
      > future is having enough
      > money to pay the bills in
      > order to continue and
      > maintain a healthy life
      > style. And, not being
      > alone and, thus, dying
      > alone is an important
      > issue too.
      >
      > Let's face it. People
      > need God more than
      > God needs them, unless,
      > you're Klemp... a false
      > God called Mahanta!
      >
      > Klemp needs his flock
      > of suckers. Even if HK
      > stepped aside for the
      > next conman to take
      > over he'd still be writing
      > his trashy books and
      > be posing as a God of
      > some sorts. Maybe he'd
      > move to some private
      > island and start rumors
      > that he had been reborn
      > as Rebazar had. Klemp
      > wants to continue the
      > myth to be remembered!
      >
      > Young people certainly
      > aren't concerned about
      > death... they're concerned
      > about finding a spouse,
      > and having a good job,
      > a place to live, and money
      > for more education and
      > a car, and gas.... maybe
      > a new computer or i-phone/
      > droid.
      >
      > In truth, HK is trying
      > to purge himself of
      > his Guilt for not only
      > having deficiencies
      > as a God/Master but
      > for his continued deceit.
      >
      > Consequently, he'll boost
      > his ego and self-important
      > image and, thus, feel
      > good hand important
      > that he's providing a
      > "spiritual" service for
      > the New Age segment
      > of the population who
      > are attracted to Eckankar's
      > (Twitchell's) Western
      > twist and edit of Radhasoami
      > and Ruhani Satsang.
      >
      > But, it (religion) is all
      > the same... just different
      > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
      > Eckankar is no exception!
      >
      > HK has millions squirreled
      > away in an off-shore
      > account so money and
      > financial security is not
      > a problem for him. Time
      > is Klemp's big enemy
      > and fear. That's why he
      > wants to be remembered
      > as being a great spiritual
      > master even though his
      > followers are deluded.
      >
      > Don't Eckists "worship"
      > Klemp, their Mahanta?
      > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
      > to trick them! But, he
      > sees it as being for their
      > own good... he's helping
      > them to find peace and
      > happiness without fear.
      > Eckists should believe
      > in themselves, as Soul,
      > and not give-up Soul's
      > authority to decide and
      > know. Initiations are
      > bogus anyway and are
      > simply used to dangle
      > in front of people....
      > that's the real "plus
      > element" in Eckankar.
      > There's Service, Coin,
      > Time, Promises of
      > Protection and Guidance
      > "plus" that next initiation!
      >
      > Look at the Spiritual
      > Exercises of EK that
      > are designed around
      > this purpose. Eckists
      > will dream of, contemplate
      > upon, and beseech
      > their God/Mahanta
      > for all sorts of things.
      >
      > These S.E.s are designed
      > for Eckists to see HK's
      > physical image don't
      > they? Thus, the Mahanta
      > brainwashing is reenforced
      > over and over on a daily
      > basis.
      >
      > And, this is why it's so
      > difficult to escape from
      > codependency. There
      > can never be real/truthful
      > "Spiritual Freedom" for
      > Eckists. They will always
      > need Klemp... he's their
      > crutch and their meth.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >

    • prometheus_973
      Hello Again Apollonius, I reread my comments to you and feel that I should apologize for some of what I said. My opinions of Eckankar and of the harm caused by
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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        Hello Again Apollonius,
        I reread my comments
        to you and feel that I
        should apologize for
        some of what I said.

        My opinions of Eckankar
        and of the harm caused
        by Twitchell's and Klemp's
        fraud still stands.

        Yes, we all need to cut the
        ties to any and all religions.
        Religions are distortions
        of Truth that are designed
        around mass consumption.

        A group consciousness,
        and even that within a
        "circle of initiation," will
        always be lower or stunted
        than what the individual
        can/will achieve when free
        and unimpeded. Of course,
        all initiations, of any sort,
        are fraudulent!

        Consciousness is not handed
        out by a demigod and printed
        on an EK membership card.

        Prometheus



        prometheus_wrote:
        >
        > Hello Apollonius and All,
        > I'm not wrong. One cannot
        > find enlightenment via the
        > the false teachings of Eckankar.
        > It's called delusional, wishful,
        > and magical thinking.
        >
        > However, it's possible that
        > one might find enlightenment
        > despite Eckankar and by seeing
        > the truth about Eckankar and
        > that of all religions and group
        > manmade dogmas. Man created
        > God in man's image and man
        > created religion as well. Women
        > created mankind, but men still
        > won't give them credit! LOL!
        >
        > As for the Blue Light thingie.
        > That's something that many
        > people will see irregardless of
        > Eckankar. It's been proven and
        > written about and that's how
        > PT found it. He stole everything
        > and probably never had an
        > original thought worth anything.
        >
        > Remember, the liar Twitchell
        > didn't create the Mahanta or
        > the Blue Light of the Mahanta
        > until Jan. 1969. This has been
        > proven via past Wisdom Notes.
        >
        > Yes, I too knew Helen and
        > Millie (Workman) Moore.
        > Did you, too, go to HK's
        > Satsang class with Helen
        > across the desert of LV?
        >
        > Just because you had a
        > personal spiritual experience
        > and connect that to some
        > of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
        > same charismatic conman,
        > doesn't mean you should
        > give Klemp a free pass. He's
        > done much more harm than
        > good by making Eckists
        > codependent upon him.
        >
        > The lies do matter!
        >
        > If you haven't figured that out
        > you're as deluded as the rest.
        >
        > That one experience you had,
        > long ago, was probably "caused"
        > by your belief in Eckankar and
        > influenced by other people and
        > the nature of the situation. All
        > of you were looking/seeking for
        > something, a sign, and a feeling
        > and it's what you and your mental
        > impressions created/deciphered
        > and found.
        >
        > I'm not saying that we don't
        > or can't have real spiritual
        > experiences. But, when we
        > do it certainly isn't because
        > of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
        > belief and person are not
        > spiritual conduits! Just the
        > opposite! Belief in Eckankar
        > and in "the Mahanta" will
        > only produce deluding Astral
        > experiences which appear
        > greater and "spiritual" in
        > the mind's eye!
        >
        > I, too, have experienced
        > sounds like running water,
        > thunder, buzzing bees,
        > violins and flutes with
        > blue, yellow, golden and
        > bright white lights and
        > more! So what! That's
        > merely the phenomenal
        > world! Much was experienced
        > prior to, some during,
        > and even greater things
        > after Eckankar!
        >
        > If you believe in the KAL,
        > then, deceivers and liars
        > who misrepresent truth
        > are of the KAL.
        >
        > Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
        > and Klemp with their distortions
        > and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
        > and Ruhani Satsang would be of
        > the KAL because they have taken
        > upon themselves to use the trickster
        > trappings and characteristics of KAL.
        >
        > But, all religions are of the KAL
        > or Satan. These religions that
        > Twitchell stole dogma from are
        > just as deceitful and off the mark
        > spiritually.
        >
        > What Eckankar is selling and
        > what you are receiving is not
        > Truth! If you don't understand
        > the ramifications of this, then,
        > you are as deluded and lost as
        > they are. Enjoy your peyote!
        >
        >
        > Prometheus
        > BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
        > This was who he prayed to and
        > wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
        > have been all that enlightened. Mo
        > wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
        > Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
        > "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
        > physical plane is of the "ECK" too
        > correct?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > apollonius wrote:
        > Greetings Prometheus and all,
        >
        > I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
        > disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
        > Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
        > However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
        > Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
        > realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
        > part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
        > by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
        > flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
        > magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.
        >
        > The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
        > professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
        > thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
        > know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
        > me comfort.
        >
        > Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
        > making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
        > have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
        > Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
        > this day.
        >
        > Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
        > own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
        > do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
        > with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
        > recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
        > advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
        > allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.
        >
        > Keep up the good work,
        >
        > From the Heart,
        >
        > Apollonius
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        > > It's interesting to see
        > > and hear what the religious
        > > tricksters and conmen
        > > come up with in order
        > > to rationalize their guilt
        > > away. They will claim to
        > > be providing a "service"
        > > for people... to comfort
        > > them and take away their
        > > fears.
        > >
        > >
        > > Klemp certainly gives Lip
        > > Service to this claim:
        > >
        > > How do the teachings
        > > of Eckankar help people?
        > >
        > > The most important
        > > concept we need to
        > > get across is the continuity
        > > of life and going from
        > > this world to the next
        > > and beyond. People worry
        > > most about meeting
        > > the end of this life. [end]
        > >
        > >
        > > Really? I disagree!
        > >
        > > Now, it could be that
        > > Klemp is concerned with
        > > death since he was born
        > > in 1942. He's getting closer
        > > and closer to the grave.
        > >
        > > And, I'm sure that many
        > > from the Baby Boomer
        > > generation (the generation
        > > Klemp dislikes most) are
        > > thinking more about their
        > > health and the end of life.
        > >
        > > But there are those living
        > > in politically unstable countries
        > > who have more immediate
        > > fears concerning day-to-
        > > day life and freedoms.
        > >
        > > What many people
        > > are concerned about,
        > > here and now, in this
        > > present time versus the
        > > future is having enough
        > > money to pay the bills in
        > > order to continue and
        > > maintain a healthy life
        > > style. And, not being
        > > alone and, thus, dying
        > > alone is an important
        > > issue too.
        > >
        > > Let's face it. People
        > > need God more than
        > > God needs them, unless,
        > > you're Klemp... a false
        > > God called Mahanta!
        > >
        > > Klemp needs his flock
        > > of suckers. Even if HK
        > > stepped aside for the
        > > next conman to take
        > > over he'd still be writing
        > > his trashy books and
        > > be posing as a God of
        > > some sorts. Maybe he'd
        > > move to some private
        > > island and start rumors
        > > that he had been reborn
        > > as Rebazar had. Klemp
        > > wants to continue the
        > > myth to be remembered!
        > >
        > > Young people certainly
        > > aren't concerned about
        > > death... they're concerned
        > > about finding a spouse,
        > > and having a good job,
        > > a place to live, and money
        > > for more education and
        > > a car, and gas.... maybe
        > > a new computer or i-phone/
        > > droid.
        > >
        > > In truth, HK is trying
        > > to purge himself of
        > > his Guilt for not only
        > > having deficiencies
        > > as a God/Master but
        > > for his continued deceit.
        > >
        > > Consequently, he'll boost
        > > his ego and self-important
        > > image and, thus, feel
        > > good hand important
        > > that he's providing a
        > > "spiritual" service for
        > > the New Age segment
        > > of the population who
        > > are attracted to Eckankar's
        > > (Twitchell's) Western
        > > twist and edit of Radhasoami
        > > and Ruhani Satsang.
        > >
        > > But, it (religion) is all
        > > the same... just different
        > > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
        > > Eckankar is no exception!
        > >
        > > HK has millions squirreled
        > > away in an off-shore
        > > account so money and
        > > financial security is not
        > > a problem for him. Time
        > > is Klemp's big enemy
        > > and fear. That's why he
        > > wants to be remembered
        > > as being a great spiritual
        > > master even though his
        > > followers are deluded.
        > >
        > > Don't Eckists "worship"
        > > Klemp, their Mahanta?
        > > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
        > > to trick them! But, he
        > > sees it as being for their
        > > own good... he's helping
        > > them to find peace and
        > > happiness without fear.
        > > Eckists should believe
        > > in themselves, as Soul,
        > > and not give-up Soul's
        > > authority to decide and
        > > know. Initiations are
        > > bogus anyway and are
        > > simply used to dangle
        > > in front of people....
        > > that's the real "plus
        > > element" in Eckankar.
        > > There's Service, Coin,
        > > Time, Promises of
        > > Protection and Guidance
        > > "plus" that next initiation!
        > >
        > > Look at the Spiritual
        > > Exercises of EK that
        > > are designed around
        > > this purpose. Eckists
        > > will dream of, contemplate
        > > upon, and beseech
        > > their God/Mahanta
        > > for all sorts of things.
        > >
        > > These S.E.s are designed
        > > for Eckists to see HK's
        > > physical image don't
        > > they? Thus, the Mahanta
        > > brainwashing is reenforced
        > > over and over on a daily
        > > basis.
        > >
        > > And, this is why it's so
        > > difficult to escape from
        > > codependency. There
        > > can never be real/truthful
        > > "Spiritual Freedom" for
        > > Eckists. They will always
        > > need Klemp... he's their
        > > crutch and their meth.
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        >
      • apollonius2k
        Hi Prometheus, Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for being led astray by Eckankar. If you listen to the reasoning of today s Hi s
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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          Hi Prometheus,

          Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for being led astray by Eckankar. If you listen to the reasoning of today's Hi's (well, the older ones anyway) as to why they still follow Eckankar, this rhetorical question will many times be heard as the answer, "Why throw the baby (Eckankar) out with the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)? I have never let HK "off the hook". He has had 30 years to set the record straight regarding Paul's made up hierarchy and writings, and is yet to do it. Also, It appears that he is bereft of spiritual experiences to write about as multiple times I caught him using my experiences and others in his HI teaching lessons.

          In the early days we read and were told that the books and myth Paul Twitchell built was absolute truth. For me, there had been many prior years of extra-physical experiences including the blue and other lights dating back to when I was three years old. I really didn't care about the myth or the LEM so much as the wealth of research contained therein. How the concepts bounced around inside my little sphere of consciousness and took me to a different place. These ideas could be tried and discarded or kept as "My" individual truths.

          As I rose through the ranks of Eckankar there was a peculiar thing that I noticed. The Mahdi were not practicing what they preached and it seemed like I was always in their cross hairs. This special attention and the energy they spewed uncontrolled, allowed me to become much stronger. There were many arguments that ensued all along the way, even with Darwin. My point was always that it is the individual path that counts, not the group or worship of a leader. If the LEM didn't know about me personally (which I discovered to be true the first time I met Darwin) then I was on my own.

          Prometheus said,
          >Yes, we all need to cut the
          > ties to any and all religions.
          > Religions are distortions
          > of Truth that are designed
          > around mass consumption.
          >
          > A group consciousness,
          > and even that within a
          > "circle of initiation," will
          > always be lower or stunted
          > than what the individual
          > can/will achieve when free
          > and unimpeded. Of course,
          > all initiations, of any sort,
          > are fraudulent!
          >
          > Consciousness is not handed
          > out by a demigod and printed
          > on an EK membership card.

          Agreed

          To my knowledge, Rumi couched his verbiage in the terms of the day. According to what I have researched, Rumi's teacher Shamsi was murdered for blasphemy against Islam.

          Though I can honestly say I never met any of Paul Twitchell's masters (and I doubt he did either) there have been times in my life when a "helper" appeared out of nowhere and guided me in a new direction with new ideas to think about. Whether I call them masters or any other term is irrelevant to me, they assisted my path and that's all that was needed.


          Cheers,

          Apollonius

          ---
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Apollonius and All, I ll respond to your comments below. apollonius wrote: Hi Prometheus, Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 6, 2012
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            Hello Apollonius and All,
            I'll respond to your
            comments below.

            apollonius wrote:
            Hi Prometheus,

            Many, and rightfully so,
            have strong feelings of
            resentment for being led
            astray by Eckankar.

            If you listen to the reasoning
            of today's Hi's (well, the
            older ones anyway) as to
            why they still follow Eckankar,
            this rhetorical question
            will many times be heard
            as the answer, "Why throw
            the baby (Eckankar) out with
            the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)?

            I have never let HK "off the
            hook". He has had 30 years
            to set the record straight
            regarding Paul's made up
            hierarchy and writings, and
            is yet to do it. Also, It appears
            that he is bereft of spiritual
            experiences to write about
            as multiple times I caught
            him using my experiences
            and others in his HI teaching
            lessons.



            *****************************
            ME: The truth as to why longtime
            H.I.s have remained in Eckankar
            has nothing to do with Truth. It's
            all about fear and ego! They fear
            not having their EK friends and
            family members in their lives but,
            also, not having their admirers.
            Plus, look at all of that time and
            money they have invested and
            the initiations they've received.
            Many were "grandfathered" in
            without having to jump through
            the hoops that HK requires today.
            Besides, there's always the hope
            of getting that 8th or 9th Outer
            initiation. This is why the "baby"
            isn't thrown out with the dirty
            bath water... and why the bath
            water is used over and over,
            again and again.
            ******************************


            In the early days we read and
            were told that the books and
            myth Paul Twitchell built was
            absolute truth. For me, there
            had been many prior years of
            extra-physical experiences
            including the blue and other
            lights dating back to when I
            was three years old. I really
            didn't care about the myth or
            the LEM so much as the wealth
            of research contained therein.
            How the concepts bounced
            around inside my little sphere
            of consciousness and took me
            to a different place. These ideas
            could be tried and discarded
            or kept as "My" individual
            truths.



            ****************************
            ME: Twitchell, as a conman,
            learned that many people
            have many things in common.
            Everyone dreams. And if one
            places attention upon the
            mysteries and myth of the
            spiritual realm they will dream
            and "see" things. I'm not
            saying that your experiences,
            especially, as a child weren't
            real, but I also know that
            parents and adults can
            mess with what a child thinks
            is real. Sometimes it's done
            out of "fun" by a somewhat
            deviant parent or relative.
            Sometimes, the fun is more
            of a cultural/religious thing
            like with Santa Claus or the
            Easter Bunny.
            *****************************


            As I rose through the
            ranks of Eckankar there
            was a peculiar thing that
            I noticed. The Mahdi were
            not practicing what they
            preached and it seemed
            like I was always in their
            cross hairs. This special
            attention and the energy
            they spewed uncontrolled,
            allowed me to become
            much stronger. There
            were many arguments
            that ensued all along the
            way, even with Darwin.
            My point was always
            that it is the individual
            path that counts, not the
            group or worship of a
            leader. If the LEM didn't
            know about me personally
            (which I discovered to be
            true the first time I met
            Darwin) then I was on my
            own.


            ***************************
            ME: Yes, there's a lot of
            ego associated with being
            an H.I. (leader). Ego was
            always rationalized away
            and looked upon as a
            "teaching tool" or as a "coat"
            that could be put on and
            taken off. It wasn't true
            but it did help to explain
            away the personality changes.
            I know that when I was at
            ECK events, in leadership
            roles, I almost always came
            across as being serious.
            I knew that I was being
            watched and evaluated
            and had to be careful to
            portray myself well. I, also,
            had to be cognizant of the
            proper procedures to follow
            which are spelled out in
            the "Guidelines." All of
            this was quite stressful.
            Why? Because I saw first
            hand what could happen
            to those who fell out-of-
            grace with the RESA.

            Yes, Klemp wouldn't know
            anything about his H.I.s,
            either, if it wasn't for the
            reports his RESAs send to
            the ESC. Everyone has a
            file and black marks and
            red flags can have initiations
            and positions put on a
            three-five year (or longer)
            hold. Sometimes there are
            things put into your ESC
            file and sometimes it's
            just that one RESA.
            ******************************
            MORE COMMENTS BELOW
            ******************************

            Prometheus said,
            >Yes, we all need to cut the
            > ties to any and all religions.
            > Religions are distortions
            > of Truth that are designed
            > around mass consumption.
            >
            > A group consciousness,
            > and even that within a
            > "circle of initiation," will
            > always be lower or stunted
            > than what the individual
            > can/will achieve when free
            > and unimpeded. Of course,
            > all initiations, of any sort,
            > are fraudulent!
            >
            > Consciousness is not handed
            > out by a demigod and printed
            > on an EK membership card.

            Agreed

            To my knowledge, Rumi
            couched his verbiage
            in the terms of the day.
            According to what I have
            researched, Rumi's teacher
            Shamsi was murdered
            for blasphemy against
            Islam.


            ****************************
            ME: It's usually thought that
            Rumi's companions killed Shams
            because they were jealous of
            him. After all, much of Rumi's
            poetry was inspired by the love
            he had for his friend and master.....
            Shams.

            However, Shams was Sunni.
            So, it could be that he was
            murdered by the more orthodox
            Shiites. IMO-Only a Shiite would
            say that Shams (a Sunni) was
            blasphemous.
            ********************************

            Though I can honestly say
            I never met any of Paul
            Twitchell's masters (and
            I doubt he did either) there
            have been times in my
            life when a "helper" appeared
            out of nowhere and guided
            me in a new direction with
            new ideas to think about.
            Whether I call them masters
            or any other term is irrelevant
            to me, they assisted my path
            and that's all that was needed.

            ******************************
            ME: I, too, have had experiences
            throughout life where it seemed
            I was being protected (mostly from
            myself) or was receiving guidance.
            Early on, Jesus would appear to
            me. I was a seeker and always
            seemed to be beseeching some
            spiritual authority for answers/
            guidance. But most people do
            the same! That's how/why the
            gods were created and, one reason,
            as to why religion was created.
            The other reasons for religions
            is to control the masses by
            alleviating their fears and giving
            hope of a better, pain free, afterlife.
            Plus, it's a money maker for those
            at the top of the hierarchy.


            Anyway, it was no surprise to
            see "EK Masters" in my dreams.
            It's funny that Eckankar validates
            itself with a handful of testimonials
            from people (innocent newbies)
            who claim they met a certain EK
            Master "prior" to joining Eckankar!
            It's kind of like (not really) St. Paul's
            experience with seeing Jesus while
            on the road to Damascus. Except
            Paul/Saul was blinded for three
            days. Hey, is that, and the Trinity,
            how Paul came up with/invented
            the, superstitious, EK Principle
            of the Threes?
            *********************************


            Cheers,

            Apollonius
          • Russ Rodnick
            I won t disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.   experiences
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 7, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              I won't disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.
               
              experiences further are phenomenal. I do not recommend believing that these are signs of knowing what truth is. they point the way in my opinion to something which is deeper, and more complete.
               
              But too the veracity of one's teachers cannot be questioned. and if these teachers are merely unconscous transmitters of ideas that they do not really understand themselves and not understanding misuse these ideas to gratify their own egos howver sweet these egotistical liars are you as the sincere student would probably be able to use these methods and ascertain some truths but how deeply and completely and why would you want to stay in Eckankar after looking behind the curtain?
              I worry that phenomena can give a false security and Eckankar gives plenty of false security.
               
              I used to think compromising thoughts too, and for some it might prove to be a good. but it is a trap too. That's the thing I would be caution about.
               
              The search for meaning and truth is all important to me. Deeper realization of being is possible with an independant attitude. Study of the self, being and personality.
               
              Anyway, truth is not easy though sometimes it seems so, in my experience.
              From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
              To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 11:35 PM
              Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

               
              Hello Apollonius and All,
              I'm not wrong. One cannot
              find enlightenment via the
              the false teachings of Eckankar.
              It's called delusional, wishful,
              and magical thinking.

              However, it's possible that
              one might find enlightenment
              despite Eckankar and by seeing
              the truth about Eckankar and
              that of all religions and group
              manmade dogmas. Man created
              God in man's image and man
              created religion as well. Women
              created mankind, but men still
              won't give them credit! LOL!

              As for the Blue Light thingie.
              That's something that many
              people will see irregardless of
              Eckankar. It's been proven and
              written about and that's how
              PT found it. He stole everything
              and probably never had an
              original thought worth anything.

              Remember, the liar Twitchell
              didn't create the Mahanta or
              the Blue Light of the Mahanta
              until Jan. 1969. This has been
              proven via past Wisdom Notes.

              Yes, I too knew Helen and
              Millie (Workman) Moore.
              Did you, too, go to HK's
              Satsang class with Helen
              across the desert of LV?

              Just because you had a
              personal spiritual experience
              and connect that to some
              of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
              same charismatic conman,
              doesn't mean you should
              give Klemp a free pass. He's
              done much more harm than
              good by making Eckists
              codependent upon him.

              The lies do matter!

              If you haven't figured that out
              you're as deluded as the rest.

              That one experience you had,
              long ago, was probably "caused"
              by your belief in Eckankar and
              influenced by other people and
              the nature of the situation. All
              of you were looking/seeking for
              something, a sign, and a feeling
              and it's what you and your mental
              impressions created/deciphered
              and found.

              I'm not saying that we don't
              or can't have real spiritual
              experiences. But, when we
              do it certainly isn't because
              of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
              belief and person are not
              spiritual conduits! Just the
              opposite! Belief in Eckankar
              and in "the Mahanta" will
              only produce deluding Astral
              experiences which appear
              greater and "spiritual" in
              the mind's eye!

              I, too, have experienced
              sounds like running water,
              thunder, buzzing bees,
              violins and flutes with
              blue, yellow, golden and
              bright white lights and
              more! So what! That's
              merely the phenomenal
              world! Much was experienced
              prior to, some during,
              and even greater things
              after Eckankar!

              If you believe in the KAL,
              then, deceivers and liars
              who misrepresent truth
              are of the KAL.

              Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
              and Klemp with their distortions
              and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
              and Ruhani Satsang would be of
              the KAL because they have taken
              upon themselves to use the trickster
              trappings and characteristics of KAL.

              But, all religions are of the KAL
              or Satan. These religions that
              Twitchell stole dogma from are
              just as deceitful and off the mark
              spiritually.

              What Eckankar is selling and
              what you are receiving is not
              Truth! If you don't understand
              the ramifications of this, then,
              you are as deluded and lost as
              they are. Enjoy your peyote!

              Prometheus
              BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
              This was who he prayed to and
              wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
              have been all that enlightened. Mo
              wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
              Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
              "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
              physical plane is of the "ECK" too
              correct?

              apollonius wrote:
              Greetings Prometheus and all,

              I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
              disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
              Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
              However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
              Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
              realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
              part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
              by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
              flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
              magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

              The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
              professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
              thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
              know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
              me comfort.

              Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
              making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
              have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
              Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
              this day.

              Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
              own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
              do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
              with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
              recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
              advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
              allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

              Keep up the good work,

              From the Heart,

              Apollonius

              >
              > It's interesting to see
              > and hear what the religious
              > tricksters and conmen
              > come up with in order
              > to rationalize their guilt
              > away. They will claim to
              > be providing a "service"
              > for people... to comfort
              > them and take away their
              > fears.
              >
              >
              > Klemp certainly gives Lip
              > Service to this claim:
              >
              > How do the teachings
              > of Eckankar help people?
              >
              > The most important
              > concept we need to
              > get across is the continuity
              > of life and going from
              > this world to the next
              > and beyond. People worry
              > most about meeting
              > the end of this life. [end]
              >
              >
              > Really? I disagree!
              >
              > Now, it could be that
              > Klemp is concerned with
              > death since he was born
              > in 1942. He's getting closer
              > and closer to the grave.
              >
              > And, I'm sure that many
              > from the Baby Boomer
              > generation (the generation
              > Klemp dislikes most) are
              > thinking more about their
              > health and the end of life.
              >
              > But there are those living
              > in politically unstable countries
              > who have more immediate
              > fears concerning day-to-
              > day life and freedoms.
              >
              > What many people
              > are concerned about,
              > here and now, in this
              > present time versus the
              > future is having enough
              > money to pay the bills in
              > order to continue and
              > maintain a healthy life
              > style. And, not being
              > alone and, thus, dying
              > alone is an important
              > issue too.
              >
              > Let's face it. People
              > need God more than
              > God needs them, unless,
              > you're Klemp... a false
              > God called Mahanta!
              >
              > Klemp needs his flock
              > of suckers. Even if HK
              > stepped aside for the
              > next conman to take
              > over he'd still be writing
              > his trashy books and
              > be posing as a God of
              > some sorts. Maybe he'd
              > move to some private
              > island and start rumors
              > that he had been reborn
              > as Rebazar had. Klemp
              > wants to continue the
              > myth to be remembered!
              >
              > Young people certainly
              > aren't concerned about
              > death... they're concerned
              > about finding a spouse,
              > and having a good job,
              > a place to live, and money
              > for more education and
              > a car, and gas.... maybe
              > a new computer or i-phone/
              > droid.
              >
              > In truth, HK is trying
              > to purge himself of
              > his Guilt for not only
              > having deficiencies
              > as a God/Master but
              > for his continued deceit.
              >
              > Consequently, he'll boost
              > his ego and self-important
              > image and, thus, feel
              > good hand important
              > that he's providing a
              > "spiritual" service for
              > the New Age segment
              > of the population who
              > are attracted to Eckankar's
              > (Twitchell's) Western
              > twist and edit of Radhasoami
              > and Ruhani Satsang.
              >
              > But, it (religion) is all
              > the same... just different
              > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
              > Eckankar is no exception!
              >
              > HK has millions squirreled
              > away in an off-shore
              > account so money and
              > financial security is not
              > a problem for him. Time
              > is Klemp's big enemy
              > and fear. That's why he
              > wants to be remembered
              > as being a great spiritual
              > master even though his
              > followers are deluded.
              >
              > Don't Eckists "worship"
              > Klemp, their Mahanta?
              > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
              > to trick them! But, he
              > sees it as being for their
              > own good... he's helping
              > them to find peace and
              > happiness without fear.
              > Eckists should believe
              > in themselves, as Soul,
              > and not give-up Soul's
              > authority to decide and
              > know. Initiations are
              > bogus anyway and are
              > simply used to dangle
              > in front of people....
              > that's the real "plus
              > element" in Eckankar.
              > There's Service, Coin,
              > Time, Promises of
              > Protection and Guidance
              > "plus" that next initiation!
              >
              > Look at the Spiritual
              > Exercises of EK that
              > are designed around
              > this purpose. Eckists
              > will dream of, contemplate
              > upon, and beseech
              > their God/Mahanta
              > for all sorts of things.
              >
              > These S.E.s are designed
              > for Eckists to see HK's
              > physical image don't
              > they? Thus, the Mahanta
              > brainwashing is reenforced
              > over and over on a daily
              > basis.
              >
              > And, this is why it's so
              > difficult to escape from
              > codependency. There
              > can never be real/truthful
              > "Spiritual Freedom" for
              > Eckists. They will always
              > need Klemp... he's their
              > crutch and their meth.
              >
              > Prometheus



            • Janice Pfeiffer
              I did a lot of self discovery and study of various kinds of spiritual paths before I ever heard of eckankar.  It didn t prevent me from being suckered in. 
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 7, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                I did a lot of self discovery and study of various kinds of spiritual paths before I ever heard of eckankar.  It didn't prevent me from being suckered in.  Further more, I didn't see the truth until  I was told by an actual HI how things really happened with initiations.  I don't know why he told me except he felt some compassion for my confusion and some how knew I needed real answers instead of more eck jargon.  At this point, I don't see any sense in blaming others who were mislead no matter how they performed as eckist or how they are handling their past associations with eckankar now.  You do become brain washed and it takes a lot of will power to give it up.   Eckankar is a world unto itself.  It is the perpetrators and those in Minneapolis who are keeping the deception going.  If any one feels a need to express their anger in any way, I feel it is best placed on the so called leaders of eckankar.  jepfeiffer

                --- On Tue, 2/7/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud
                To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Tuesday, February 7, 2012, 10:41 PM

                 
                I won't disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.
                 
                experiences further are phenomenal. I do not recommend believing that these are signs of knowing what truth is. they point the way in my opinion to something which is deeper, and more complete.
                 
                But too the veracity of one's teachers cannot be questioned. and if these teachers are merely unconscous transmitters of ideas that they do not really understand themselves and not understanding misuse these ideas to gratify their own egos howver sweet these egotistical liars are you as the sincere student would probably be able to use these methods and ascertain some truths but how deeply and completely and why would you want to stay in Eckankar after looking behind the curtain?
                I worry that phenomena can give a false security and Eckankar gives plenty of false security.
                 
                I used to think compromising thoughts too, and for some it might prove to be a good. but it is a trap too. That's the thing I would be caution about.
                 
                The search for meaning and truth is all important to me. Deeper realization of being is possible with an independant attitude. Study of the self, being and personality.
                 
                Anyway, truth is not easy though sometimes it seems so, in my experience.
                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 11:35 PM
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

                 
                Hello Apollonius and All,
                I'm not wrong. One cannot
                find enlightenment via the
                the false teachings of Eckankar.
                It's called delusional, wishful,
                and magical thinking.

                However, it's possible that
                one might find enlightenment
                despite Eckankar and by seeing
                the truth about Eckankar and
                that of all religions and group
                manmade dogmas. Man created
                God in man's image and man
                created religion as well. Women
                created mankind, but men still
                won't give them credit! LOL!

                As for the Blue Light thingie.
                That's something that many
                people will see irregardless of
                Eckankar. It's been proven and
                written about and that's how
                PT found it. He stole everything
                and probably never had an
                original thought worth anything.

                Remember, the liar Twitchell
                didn't create the Mahanta or
                the Blue Light of the Mahanta
                until Jan. 1969. This has been
                proven via past Wisdom Notes.

                Yes, I too knew Helen and
                Millie (Workman) Moore.
                Did you, too, go to HK's
                Satsang class with Helen
                across the desert of LV?

                Just because you had a
                personal spiritual experience
                and connect that to some
                of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
                same charismatic conman,
                doesn't mean you should
                give Klemp a free pass. He's
                done much more harm than
                good by making Eckists
                codependent upon him.

                The lies do matter!

                If you haven't figured that out
                you're as deluded as the rest.

                That one experience you had,
                long ago, was probably "caused"
                by your belief in Eckankar and
                influenced by other people and
                the nature of the situation. All
                of you were looking/seeking for
                something, a sign, and a feeling
                and it's what you and your mental
                impressions created/deciphered
                and found.

                I'm not saying that we don't
                or can't have real spiritual
                experiences. But, when we
                do it certainly isn't because
                of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
                belief and person are not
                spiritual conduits! Just the
                opposite! Belief in Eckankar
                and in "the Mahanta" will
                only produce deluding Astral
                experiences which appear
                greater and "spiritual" in
                the mind's eye!

                I, too, have experienced
                sounds like running water,
                thunder, buzzing bees,
                violins and flutes with
                blue, yellow, golden and
                bright white lights and
                more! So what! That's
                merely the phenomenal
                world! Much was experienced
                prior to, some during,
                and even greater things
                after Eckankar!

                If you believe in the KAL,
                then, deceivers and liars
                who misrepresent truth
                are of the KAL.

                Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
                and Klemp with their distortions
                and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
                and Ruhani Satsang would be of
                the KAL because they have taken
                upon themselves to use the trickster
                trappings and characteristics of KAL.

                But, all religions are of the KAL
                or Satan. These religions that
                Twitchell stole dogma from are
                just as deceitful and off the mark
                spiritually.

                What Eckankar is selling and
                what you are receiving is not
                Truth! If you don't understand
                the ramifications of this, then,
                you are as deluded and lost as
                they are. Enjoy your peyote!

                Prometheus
                BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
                This was who he prayed to and
                wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
                have been all that enlightened. Mo
                wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
                Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
                "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
                physical plane is of the "ECK" too
                correct?

                apollonius wrote:
                Greetings Prometheus and all,

                I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
                disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
                Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
                However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
                Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
                realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
                part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
                by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
                flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
                magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

                The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
                professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
                thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
                know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
                me comfort.

                Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
                making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
                have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
                Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
                this day.

                Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
                own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
                do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
                with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
                recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
                advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
                allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

                Keep up the good work,

                From the Heart,

                Apollonius

                >
                > It's interesting to see
                > and hear what the religious
                > tricksters and conmen
                > come up with in order
                > to rationalize their guilt
                > away. They will claim to
                > be providing a "service"
                > for people... to comfort
                > them and take away their
                > fears.
                >
                >
                > Klemp certainly gives Lip
                > Service to this claim:
                >
                > How do the teachings
                > of Eckankar help people?
                >
                > The most important
                > concept we need to
                > get across is the continuity
                > of life and going from
                > this world to the next
                > and beyond. People worry
                > most about meeting
                > the end of this life. [end]
                >
                >
                > Really? I disagree!
                >
                > Now, it could be that
                > Klemp is concerned with
                > death since he was born
                > in 1942. He's getting closer
                > and closer to the grave.
                >
                > And, I'm sure that many
                > from the Baby Boomer
                > generation (the generation
                > Klemp dislikes most) are
                > thinking more about their
                > health and the end of life.
                >
                > But there are those living
                > in politically unstable countries
                > who have more immediate
                > fears concerning day-to-
                > day life and freedoms.
                >
                > What many people
                > are concerned about,
                > here and now, in this
                > present time versus the
                > future is having enough
                > money to pay the bills in
                > order to continue and
                > maintain a healthy life
                > style. And, not being
                > alone and, thus, dying
                > alone is an important
                > issue too.
                >
                > Let's face it. People
                > need God more than
                > God needs them, unless,
                > you're Klemp... a false
                > God called Mahanta!
                >
                > Klemp needs his flock
                > of suckers. Even if HK
                > stepped aside for the
                > next conman to take
                > over he'd still be writing
                > his trashy books and
                > be posing as a God of
                > some sorts. Maybe he'd
                > move to some private
                > island and start rumors
                > that he had been reborn
                > as Rebazar had. Klemp
                > wants to continue the
                > myth to be remembered!
                >
                > Young people certainly
                > aren't concerned about
                > death... they're concerned
                > about finding a spouse,
                > and having a good job,
                > a place to live, and money
                > for more education and
                > a car, and gas.... maybe
                > a new computer or i-phone/
                > droid.
                >
                > In truth, HK is trying
                > to purge himself of
                > his Guilt for not only
                > having deficiencies
                > as a God/Master but
                > for his continued deceit.
                >
                > Consequently, he'll boost
                > his ego and self-important
                > image and, thus, feel
                > good hand important
                > that he's providing a
                > "spiritual" service for
                > the New Age segment
                > of the population who
                > are attracted to Eckankar's
                > (Twitchell's) Western
                > twist and edit of Radhasoami
                > and Ruhani Satsang.
                >
                > But, it (religion) is all
                > the same... just different
                > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
                > Eckankar is no exception!
                >
                > HK has millions squirreled
                > away in an off-shore
                > account so money and
                > financial security is not
                > a problem for him. Time
                > is Klemp's big enemy
                > and fear. That's why he
                > wants to be remembered
                > as being a great spiritual
                > master even though his
                > followers are deluded.
                >
                > Don't Eckists "worship"
                > Klemp, their Mahanta?
                > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
                > to trick them! But, he
                > sees it as being for their
                > own good... he's helping
                > them to find peace and
                > happiness without fear.
                > Eckists should believe
                > in themselves, as Soul,
                > and not give-up Soul's
                > authority to decide and
                > know. Initiations are
                > bogus anyway and are
                > simply used to dangle
                > in front of people....
                > that's the real "plus
                > element" in Eckankar.
                > There's Service, Coin,
                > Time, Promises of
                > Protection and Guidance
                > "plus" that next initiation!
                >
                > Look at the Spiritual
                > Exercises of EK that
                > are designed around
                > this purpose. Eckists
                > will dream of, contemplate
                > upon, and beseech
                > their God/Mahanta
                > for all sorts of things.
                >
                > These S.E.s are designed
                > for Eckists to see HK's
                > physical image don't
                > they? Thus, the Mahanta
                > brainwashing is reenforced
                > over and over on a daily
                > basis.
                >
                > And, this is why it's so
                > difficult to escape from
                > codependency. There
                > can never be real/truthful
                > "Spiritual Freedom" for
                > Eckists. They will always
                > need Klemp... he's their
                > crutch and their meth.
                >
                > Prometheus



              • apollonius2k
                Good points Prometheus!
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 8, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Good points Prometheus!

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Apollonius and All,
                  > I'll respond to your
                  > comments below.
                  >
                  > apollonius wrote:
                  > Hi Prometheus,
                  >
                  > Many, and rightfully so,
                  > have strong feelings of
                  > resentment for being led
                  > astray by Eckankar.
                  >
                  > If you listen to the reasoning
                  > of today's Hi's (well, the
                  > older ones anyway) as to
                  > why they still follow Eckankar,
                  > this rhetorical question
                  > will many times be heard
                  > as the answer, "Why throw
                  > the baby (Eckankar) out with
                  > the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)?
                  >
                  > I have never let HK "off the
                  > hook". He has had 30 years
                  > to set the record straight
                  > regarding Paul's made up
                  > hierarchy and writings, and
                  > is yet to do it. Also, It appears
                  > that he is bereft of spiritual
                  > experiences to write about
                  > as multiple times I caught
                  > him using my experiences
                  > and others in his HI teaching
                  > lessons.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > *****************************
                  > ME: The truth as to why longtime
                  > H.I.s have remained in Eckankar
                  > has nothing to do with Truth. It's
                  > all about fear and ego! They fear
                  > not having their EK friends and
                  > family members in their lives but,
                  > also, not having their admirers.
                  > Plus, look at all of that time and
                  > money they have invested and
                  > the initiations they've received.
                  > Many were "grandfathered" in
                  > without having to jump through
                  > the hoops that HK requires today.
                  > Besides, there's always the hope
                  > of getting that 8th or 9th Outer
                  > initiation. This is why the "baby"
                  > isn't thrown out with the dirty
                  > bath water... and why the bath
                  > water is used over and over,
                  > again and again.
                  > ******************************
                  >
                  >
                  > In the early days we read and
                  > were told that the books and
                  > myth Paul Twitchell built was
                  > absolute truth. For me, there
                  > had been many prior years of
                  > extra-physical experiences
                  > including the blue and other
                  > lights dating back to when I
                  > was three years old. I really
                  > didn't care about the myth or
                  > the LEM so much as the wealth
                  > of research contained therein.
                  > How the concepts bounced
                  > around inside my little sphere
                  > of consciousness and took me
                  > to a different place. These ideas
                  > could be tried and discarded
                  > or kept as "My" individual
                  > truths.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ****************************
                  > ME: Twitchell, as a conman,
                  > learned that many people
                  > have many things in common.
                  > Everyone dreams. And if one
                  > places attention upon the
                  > mysteries and myth of the
                  > spiritual realm they will dream
                  > and "see" things. I'm not
                  > saying that your experiences,
                  > especially, as a child weren't
                  > real, but I also know that
                  > parents and adults can
                  > mess with what a child thinks
                  > is real. Sometimes it's done
                  > out of "fun" by a somewhat
                  > deviant parent or relative.
                  > Sometimes, the fun is more
                  > of a cultural/religious thing
                  > like with Santa Claus or the
                  > Easter Bunny.
                  > *****************************
                  >
                  >
                  > As I rose through the
                  > ranks of Eckankar there
                  > was a peculiar thing that
                  > I noticed. The Mahdi were
                  > not practicing what they
                  > preached and it seemed
                  > like I was always in their
                  > cross hairs. This special
                  > attention and the energy
                  > they spewed uncontrolled,
                  > allowed me to become
                  > much stronger. There
                  > were many arguments
                  > that ensued all along the
                  > way, even with Darwin.
                  > My point was always
                  > that it is the individual
                  > path that counts, not the
                  > group or worship of a
                  > leader. If the LEM didn't
                  > know about me personally
                  > (which I discovered to be
                  > true the first time I met
                  > Darwin) then I was on my
                  > own.
                  >
                  >
                  > ***************************
                  > ME: Yes, there's a lot of
                  > ego associated with being
                  > an H.I. (leader). Ego was
                  > always rationalized away
                  > and looked upon as a
                  > "teaching tool" or as a "coat"
                  > that could be put on and
                  > taken off. It wasn't true
                  > but it did help to explain
                  > away the personality changes.
                  > I know that when I was at
                  > ECK events, in leadership
                  > roles, I almost always came
                  > across as being serious.
                  > I knew that I was being
                  > watched and evaluated
                  > and had to be careful to
                  > portray myself well. I, also,
                  > had to be cognizant of the
                  > proper procedures to follow
                  > which are spelled out in
                  > the "Guidelines." All of
                  > this was quite stressful.
                  > Why? Because I saw first
                  > hand what could happen
                  > to those who fell out-of-
                  > grace with the RESA.
                  >
                  > Yes, Klemp wouldn't know
                  > anything about his H.I.s,
                  > either, if it wasn't for the
                  > reports his RESAs send to
                  > the ESC. Everyone has a
                  > file and black marks and
                  > red flags can have initiations
                  > and positions put on a
                  > three-five year (or longer)
                  > hold. Sometimes there are
                  > things put into your ESC
                  > file and sometimes it's
                  > just that one RESA.
                  > ******************************
                  > MORE COMMENTS BELOW
                  > ******************************
                  >
                  > Prometheus said,
                  > >Yes, we all need to cut the
                  > > ties to any and all religions.
                  > > Religions are distortions
                  > > of Truth that are designed
                  > > around mass consumption.
                  > >
                  > > A group consciousness,
                  > > and even that within a
                  > > "circle of initiation," will
                  > > always be lower or stunted
                  > > than what the individual
                  > > can/will achieve when free
                  > > and unimpeded. Of course,
                  > > all initiations, of any sort,
                  > > are fraudulent!
                  > >
                  > > Consciousness is not handed
                  > > out by a demigod and printed
                  > > on an EK membership card.
                  >
                  > Agreed
                  >
                  > To my knowledge, Rumi
                  > couched his verbiage
                  > in the terms of the day.
                  > According to what I have
                  > researched, Rumi's teacher
                  > Shamsi was murdered
                  > for blasphemy against
                  > Islam.
                  >
                  >
                  > ****************************
                  > ME: It's usually thought that
                  > Rumi's companions killed Shams
                  > because they were jealous of
                  > him. After all, much of Rumi's
                  > poetry was inspired by the love
                  > he had for his friend and master.....
                  > Shams.
                  >
                  > However, Shams was Sunni.
                  > So, it could be that he was
                  > murdered by the more orthodox
                  > Shiites. IMO-Only a Shiite would
                  > say that Shams (a Sunni) was
                  > blasphemous.
                  > ********************************
                  >
                  > Though I can honestly say
                  > I never met any of Paul
                  > Twitchell's masters (and
                  > I doubt he did either) there
                  > have been times in my
                  > life when a "helper" appeared
                  > out of nowhere and guided
                  > me in a new direction with
                  > new ideas to think about.
                  > Whether I call them masters
                  > or any other term is irrelevant
                  > to me, they assisted my path
                  > and that's all that was needed.
                  >
                  > ******************************
                  > ME: I, too, have had experiences
                  > throughout life where it seemed
                  > I was being protected (mostly from
                  > myself) or was receiving guidance.
                  > Early on, Jesus would appear to
                  > me. I was a seeker and always
                  > seemed to be beseeching some
                  > spiritual authority for answers/
                  > guidance. But most people do
                  > the same! That's how/why the
                  > gods were created and, one reason,
                  > as to why religion was created.
                  > The other reasons for religions
                  > is to control the masses by
                  > alleviating their fears and giving
                  > hope of a better, pain free, afterlife.
                  > Plus, it's a money maker for those
                  > at the top of the hierarchy.
                  >
                  >
                  > Anyway, it was no surprise to
                  > see "EK Masters" in my dreams.
                  > It's funny that Eckankar validates
                  > itself with a handful of testimonials
                  > from people (innocent newbies)
                  > who claim they met a certain EK
                  > Master "prior" to joining Eckankar!
                  > It's kind of like (not really) St. Paul's
                  > experience with seeing Jesus while
                  > on the road to Damascus. Except
                  > Paul/Saul was blinded for three
                  > days. Hey, is that, and the Trinity,
                  > how Paul came up with/invented
                  > the, superstitious, EK Principle
                  > of the Threes?
                  > *********************************
                  >
                  >
                  > Cheers,
                  >
                  > Apollonius
                  >
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