Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

Expand Messages
  • apollonius2k
    Greetings Prometheus and all, I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 3, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Greetings Prometheus and all,

      I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD. However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

      The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave me comfort.
      Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to this day.

      Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

      Keep up the good work,

      From the Heart,

      Apollonius




      >
      > It's interesting to see
      > and hear what the religious
      > tricksters and conmen
      > come up with in order
      > to rationalize their guilt
      > away. They will claim to
      > be providing a "service"
      > for people... to comfort
      > them and take away their
      > fears.
      >
      >
      > Klemp certainly gives Lip
      > Service to this claim:
      >
      > How do the teachings
      > of Eckankar help people?
      >
      > The most important
      > concept we need to
      > get across is the continuity
      > of life and going from
      > this world to the next
      > and beyond. People worry
      > most about meeting
      > the end of this life. [end]
      >
      >
      > Really? I disagree!
      >
      > Now, it could be that
      > Klemp is concerned with
      > death since he was born
      > in 1942. He's getting closer
      > and closer to the grave.
      >
      > And, I'm sure that many
      > from the Baby Boomer
      > generation (the generation
      > Klemp dislikes most) are
      > thinking more about their
      > health and the end of life.
      >
      > But there are those living
      > in politically unstable countries
      > who have more immediate
      > fears concerning day-to-
      > day life and freedoms.
      >
      > What many people
      > are concerned about,
      > here and now, in this
      > present time versus the
      > future is having enough
      > money to pay the bills in
      > order to continue and
      > maintain a healthy life
      > style. And, not being
      > alone and, thus, dying
      > alone is an important
      > issue too.
      >
      > Let's face it. People
      > need God more than
      > God needs them, unless,
      > you're Klemp... a false
      > God called Mahanta!
      >
      > Klemp needs his flock
      > of suckers. Even if HK
      > stepped aside for the
      > next conman to take
      > over he'd still be writing
      > his trashy books and
      > be posing as a God of
      > some sorts. Maybe he'd
      > move to some private
      > island and start rumors
      > that he had been reborn
      > as Rebazar had. Klemp
      > wants to continue the
      > myth to be remembered!
      >
      > Young people certainly
      > aren't concerned about
      > death... they're concerned
      > about finding a spouse,
      > and having a good job,
      > a place to live, and money
      > for more education and
      > a car, and gas.... maybe
      > a new computer or i-phone/
      > droid.
      >
      > In truth, HK is trying
      > to purge himself of
      > his Guilt for not only
      > having deficiencies
      > as a God/Master but
      > for his continued deceit.
      >
      > Consequently, he'll boost
      > his ego and self-important
      > image and, thus, feel
      > good hand important
      > that he's providing a
      > "spiritual" service for
      > the New Age segment
      > of the population who
      > are attracted to Eckankar's
      > (Twitchell's) Western
      > twist and edit of Radhasoami
      > and Ruhani Satsang.
      >
      > But, it (religion) is all
      > the same... just different
      > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
      > Eckankar is no exception!
      >
      > HK has millions squirreled
      > away in an off-shore
      > account so money and
      > financial security is not
      > a problem for him. Time
      > is Klemp's big enemy
      > and fear. That's why he
      > wants to be remembered
      > as being a great spiritual
      > master even though his
      > followers are deluded.
      >
      > Don't Eckists "worship"
      > Klemp, their Mahanta?
      > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
      > to trick them! But, he
      > sees it as being for their
      > own good... he's helping
      > them to find peace and
      > happiness without fear.
      > Eckists should believe
      > in themselves, as Soul,
      > and not give-up Soul's
      > authority to decide and
      > know. Initiations are
      > bogus anyway and are
      > simply used to dangle
      > in front of people....
      > that's the real "plus
      > element" in Eckankar.
      > There's Service, Coin,
      > Time, Promises of
      > Protection and Guidance
      > "plus" that next initiation!
      >
      > Look at the Spiritual
      > Exercises of EK that
      > are designed around
      > this purpose. Eckists
      > will dream of, contemplate
      > upon, and beseech
      > their God/Mahanta
      > for all sorts of things.
      >
      > These S.E.s are designed
      > for Eckists to see HK's
      > physical image don't
      > they? Thus, the Mahanta
      > brainwashing is reenforced
      > over and over on a daily
      > basis.
      >
      > And, this is why it's so
      > difficult to escape from
      > codependency. There
      > can never be real/truthful
      > "Spiritual Freedom" for
      > Eckists. They will always
      > need Klemp... he's their
      > crutch and their meth.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Apollonius and All, I m not wrong. One cannot find enlightenment via the the false teachings of Eckankar. It s called delusional, wishful, and magical
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 4, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello Apollonius and All,
        I'm not wrong. One cannot
        find enlightenment via the
        the false teachings of Eckankar.
        It's called delusional, wishful,
        and magical thinking.

        However, it's possible that
        one might find enlightenment
        despite Eckankar and by seeing
        the truth about Eckankar and
        that of all religions and group
        manmade dogmas. Man created
        God in man's image and man
        created religion as well. Women
        created mankind, but men still
        won't give them credit! LOL!

        As for the Blue Light thingie.
        That's something that many
        people will see irregardless of
        Eckankar. It's been proven and
        written about and that's how
        PT found it. He stole everything
        and probably never had an
        original thought worth anything.

        Remember, the liar Twitchell
        didn't create the Mahanta or
        the Blue Light of the Mahanta
        until Jan. 1969. This has been
        proven via past Wisdom Notes.

        Yes, I too knew Helen and
        Millie (Workman) Moore.
        Did you, too, go to HK's
        Satsang class with Helen
        across the desert of LV?

        Just because you had a
        personal spiritual experience
        and connect that to some
        of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
        same charismatic conman,
        doesn't mean you should
        give Klemp a free pass. He's
        done much more harm than
        good by making Eckists
        codependent upon him.

        The lies do matter!

        If you haven't figured that out
        you're as deluded as the rest.

        That one experience you had,
        long ago, was probably "caused"
        by your belief in Eckankar and
        influenced by other people and
        the nature of the situation. All
        of you were looking/seeking for
        something, a sign, and a feeling
        and it's what you and your mental
        impressions created/deciphered
        and found.

        I'm not saying that we don't
        or can't have real spiritual
        experiences. But, when we
        do it certainly isn't because
        of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
        belief and person are not
        spiritual conduits! Just the
        opposite! Belief in Eckankar
        and in "the Mahanta" will
        only produce deluding Astral
        experiences which appear
        greater and "spiritual" in
        the mind's eye!

        I, too, have experienced
        sounds like running water,
        thunder, buzzing bees,
        violins and flutes with
        blue, yellow, golden and
        bright white lights and
        more! So what! That's
        merely the phenomenal
        world! Much was experienced
        prior to, some during,
        and even greater things
        after Eckankar!

        If you believe in the KAL,
        then, deceivers and liars
        who misrepresent truth
        are of the KAL.

        Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
        and Klemp with their distortions
        and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
        and Ruhani Satsang would be of
        the KAL because they have taken
        upon themselves to use the trickster
        trappings and characteristics of KAL.

        But, all religions are of the KAL
        or Satan. These religions that
        Twitchell stole dogma from are
        just as deceitful and off the mark
        spiritually.

        What Eckankar is selling and
        what you are receiving is not
        Truth! If you don't understand
        the ramifications of this, then,
        you are as deluded and lost as
        they are. Enjoy your peyote!


        Prometheus
        BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
        This was who he prayed to and
        wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
        have been all that enlightened. Mo
        wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
        Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
        "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
        physical plane is of the "ECK" too
        correct?




        apollonius wrote:
        Greetings Prometheus and all,

        I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
        disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
        Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
        However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
        Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
        realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
        part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
        by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
        flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
        magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

        The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
        professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
        thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
        know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
        me comfort.

        Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
        making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
        have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
        Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
        this day.

        Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
        own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
        do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
        with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
        recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
        advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
        allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

        Keep up the good work,

        From the Heart,

        Apollonius




        >
        > It's interesting to see
        > and hear what the religious
        > tricksters and conmen
        > come up with in order
        > to rationalize their guilt
        > away. They will claim to
        > be providing a "service"
        > for people... to comfort
        > them and take away their
        > fears.
        >
        >
        > Klemp certainly gives Lip
        > Service to this claim:
        >
        > How do the teachings
        > of Eckankar help people?
        >
        > The most important
        > concept we need to
        > get across is the continuity
        > of life and going from
        > this world to the next
        > and beyond. People worry
        > most about meeting
        > the end of this life. [end]
        >
        >
        > Really? I disagree!
        >
        > Now, it could be that
        > Klemp is concerned with
        > death since he was born
        > in 1942. He's getting closer
        > and closer to the grave.
        >
        > And, I'm sure that many
        > from the Baby Boomer
        > generation (the generation
        > Klemp dislikes most) are
        > thinking more about their
        > health and the end of life.
        >
        > But there are those living
        > in politically unstable countries
        > who have more immediate
        > fears concerning day-to-
        > day life and freedoms.
        >
        > What many people
        > are concerned about,
        > here and now, in this
        > present time versus the
        > future is having enough
        > money to pay the bills in
        > order to continue and
        > maintain a healthy life
        > style. And, not being
        > alone and, thus, dying
        > alone is an important
        > issue too.
        >
        > Let's face it. People
        > need God more than
        > God needs them, unless,
        > you're Klemp... a false
        > God called Mahanta!
        >
        > Klemp needs his flock
        > of suckers. Even if HK
        > stepped aside for the
        > next conman to take
        > over he'd still be writing
        > his trashy books and
        > be posing as a God of
        > some sorts. Maybe he'd
        > move to some private
        > island and start rumors
        > that he had been reborn
        > as Rebazar had. Klemp
        > wants to continue the
        > myth to be remembered!
        >
        > Young people certainly
        > aren't concerned about
        > death... they're concerned
        > about finding a spouse,
        > and having a good job,
        > a place to live, and money
        > for more education and
        > a car, and gas.... maybe
        > a new computer or i-phone/
        > droid.
        >
        > In truth, HK is trying
        > to purge himself of
        > his Guilt for not only
        > having deficiencies
        > as a God/Master but
        > for his continued deceit.
        >
        > Consequently, he'll boost
        > his ego and self-important
        > image and, thus, feel
        > good hand important
        > that he's providing a
        > "spiritual" service for
        > the New Age segment
        > of the population who
        > are attracted to Eckankar's
        > (Twitchell's) Western
        > twist and edit of Radhasoami
        > and Ruhani Satsang.
        >
        > But, it (religion) is all
        > the same... just different
        > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
        > Eckankar is no exception!
        >
        > HK has millions squirreled
        > away in an off-shore
        > account so money and
        > financial security is not
        > a problem for him. Time
        > is Klemp's big enemy
        > and fear. That's why he
        > wants to be remembered
        > as being a great spiritual
        > master even though his
        > followers are deluded.
        >
        > Don't Eckists "worship"
        > Klemp, their Mahanta?
        > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
        > to trick them! But, he
        > sees it as being for their
        > own good... he's helping
        > them to find peace and
        > happiness without fear.
        > Eckists should believe
        > in themselves, as Soul,
        > and not give-up Soul's
        > authority to decide and
        > know. Initiations are
        > bogus anyway and are
        > simply used to dangle
        > in front of people....
        > that's the real "plus
        > element" in Eckankar.
        > There's Service, Coin,
        > Time, Promises of
        > Protection and Guidance
        > "plus" that next initiation!
        >
        > Look at the Spiritual
        > Exercises of EK that
        > are designed around
        > this purpose. Eckists
        > will dream of, contemplate
        > upon, and beseech
        > their God/Mahanta
        > for all sorts of things.
        >
        > These S.E.s are designed
        > for Eckists to see HK's
        > physical image don't
        > they? Thus, the Mahanta
        > brainwashing is reenforced
        > over and over on a daily
        > basis.
        >
        > And, this is why it's so
        > difficult to escape from
        > codependency. There
        > can never be real/truthful
        > "Spiritual Freedom" for
        > Eckists. They will always
        > need Klemp... he's their
        > crutch and their meth.
        >
        > Prometheus
      • Janice Pfeiffer
        Prometheus is right.  You see what you expect to see cuz you are programmed to associate all your experiences to eckankar.  About the blue light thing. 
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Prometheus is right.  You see what you expect to see cuz you are programmed to associate all your experiences to eckankar.  About the blue light thing.  Maybe they used some hidden blue lights to create the aura of blue.  I wouldn't put it past them.  They are such fakers.  Spiritual freedom in eckankar?  How can it be when from day one you are taught that you have a master.  I have never been more free than since I got out of eckankar.

          --- On Sat, 2/4/12, apollonius2k <apollonius2k@...> wrote:

          From: apollonius2k <apollonius2k@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, February 4, 2012, 7:42 AM

           
          Greetings Prometheus and all,

          I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD. However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

          The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave me comfort.
          Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to this day.

          Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

          Keep up the good work,

          From the Heart,

          Apollonius

          >
          > It's interesting to see
          > and hear what the religious
          > tricksters and conmen
          > come up with in order
          > to rationalize their guilt
          > away. They will claim to
          > be providing a "service"
          > for people... to comfort
          > them and take away their
          > fears.
          >
          >
          > Klemp certainly gives Lip
          > Service to this claim:
          >
          > How do the teachings
          > of Eckankar help people?
          >
          > The most important
          > concept we need to
          > get across is the continuity
          > of life and going from
          > this world to the next
          > and beyond. People worry
          > most about meeting
          > the end of this life. [end]
          >
          >
          > Really? I disagree!
          >
          > Now, it could be that
          > Klemp is concerned with
          > death since he was born
          > in 1942. He's getting closer
          > and closer to the grave.
          >
          > And, I'm sure that many
          > from the Baby Boomer
          > generation (the generation
          > Klemp dislikes most) are
          > thinking more about their
          > health and the end of life.
          >
          > But there are those living
          > in politically unstable countries
          > who have more immediate
          > fears concerning day-to-
          > day life and freedoms.
          >
          > What many people
          > are concerned about,
          > here and now, in this
          > present time versus the
          > future is having enough
          > money to pay the bills in
          > order to continue and
          > maintain a healthy life
          > style. And, not being
          > alone and, thus, dying
          > alone is an important
          > issue too.
          >
          > Let's face it. People
          > need God more than
          > God needs them, unless,
          > you're Klemp... a false
          > God called Mahanta!
          >
          > Klemp needs his flock
          > of suckers. Even if HK
          > stepped aside for the
          > next conman to take
          > over he'd still be writing
          > his trashy books and
          > be posing as a God of
          > some sorts. Maybe he'd
          > move to some private
          > island and start rumors
          > that he had been reborn
          > as Rebazar had. Klemp
          > wants to continue the
          > myth to be remembered!
          >
          > Young people certainly
          > aren't concerned about
          > death... they're concerned
          > about finding a spouse,
          > and having a good job,
          > a place to live, and money
          > for more education and
          > a car, and gas.... maybe
          > a new computer or i-phone/
          > droid.
          >
          > In truth, HK is trying
          > to purge himself of
          > his Guilt for not only
          > having deficiencies
          > as a God/Master but
          > for his continued deceit.
          >
          > Consequently, he'll boost
          > his ego and self-important
          > image and, thus, feel
          > good hand important
          > that he's providing a
          > "spiritual" service for
          > the New Age segment
          > of the population who
          > are attracted to Eckankar's
          > (Twitchell's) Western
          > twist and edit of Radhasoami
          > and Ruhani Satsang.
          >
          > But, it (religion) is all
          > the same... just different
          > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
          > Eckankar is no exception!
          >
          > HK has millions squirreled
          > away in an off-shore
          > account so money and
          > financial security is not
          > a problem for him. Time
          > is Klemp's big enemy
          > and fear. That's why he
          > wants to be remembered
          > as being a great spiritual
          > master even though his
          > followers are deluded.
          >
          > Don't Eckists "worship"
          > Klemp, their Mahanta?
          > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
          > to trick them! But, he
          > sees it as being for their
          > own good... he's helping
          > them to find peace and
          > happiness without fear.
          > Eckists should believe
          > in themselves, as Soul,
          > and not give-up Soul's
          > authority to decide and
          > know. Initiations are
          > bogus anyway and are
          > simply used to dangle
          > in front of people....
          > that's the real "plus
          > element" in Eckankar.
          > There's Service, Coin,
          > Time, Promises of
          > Protection and Guidance
          > "plus" that next initiation!
          >
          > Look at the Spiritual
          > Exercises of EK that
          > are designed around
          > this purpose. Eckists
          > will dream of, contemplate
          > upon, and beseech
          > their God/Mahanta
          > for all sorts of things.
          >
          > These S.E.s are designed
          > for Eckists to see HK's
          > physical image don't
          > they? Thus, the Mahanta
          > brainwashing is reenforced
          > over and over on a daily
          > basis.
          >
          > And, this is why it's so
          > difficult to escape from
          > codependency. There
          > can never be real/truthful
          > "Spiritual Freedom" for
          > Eckists. They will always
          > need Klemp... he's their
          > crutch and their meth.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >

        • prometheus_973
          Hello Again Apollonius, I reread my comments to you and feel that I should apologize for some of what I said. My opinions of Eckankar and of the harm caused by
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Again Apollonius,
            I reread my comments
            to you and feel that I
            should apologize for
            some of what I said.

            My opinions of Eckankar
            and of the harm caused
            by Twitchell's and Klemp's
            fraud still stands.

            Yes, we all need to cut the
            ties to any and all religions.
            Religions are distortions
            of Truth that are designed
            around mass consumption.

            A group consciousness,
            and even that within a
            "circle of initiation," will
            always be lower or stunted
            than what the individual
            can/will achieve when free
            and unimpeded. Of course,
            all initiations, of any sort,
            are fraudulent!

            Consciousness is not handed
            out by a demigod and printed
            on an EK membership card.

            Prometheus



            prometheus_wrote:
            >
            > Hello Apollonius and All,
            > I'm not wrong. One cannot
            > find enlightenment via the
            > the false teachings of Eckankar.
            > It's called delusional, wishful,
            > and magical thinking.
            >
            > However, it's possible that
            > one might find enlightenment
            > despite Eckankar and by seeing
            > the truth about Eckankar and
            > that of all religions and group
            > manmade dogmas. Man created
            > God in man's image and man
            > created religion as well. Women
            > created mankind, but men still
            > won't give them credit! LOL!
            >
            > As for the Blue Light thingie.
            > That's something that many
            > people will see irregardless of
            > Eckankar. It's been proven and
            > written about and that's how
            > PT found it. He stole everything
            > and probably never had an
            > original thought worth anything.
            >
            > Remember, the liar Twitchell
            > didn't create the Mahanta or
            > the Blue Light of the Mahanta
            > until Jan. 1969. This has been
            > proven via past Wisdom Notes.
            >
            > Yes, I too knew Helen and
            > Millie (Workman) Moore.
            > Did you, too, go to HK's
            > Satsang class with Helen
            > across the desert of LV?
            >
            > Just because you had a
            > personal spiritual experience
            > and connect that to some
            > of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
            > same charismatic conman,
            > doesn't mean you should
            > give Klemp a free pass. He's
            > done much more harm than
            > good by making Eckists
            > codependent upon him.
            >
            > The lies do matter!
            >
            > If you haven't figured that out
            > you're as deluded as the rest.
            >
            > That one experience you had,
            > long ago, was probably "caused"
            > by your belief in Eckankar and
            > influenced by other people and
            > the nature of the situation. All
            > of you were looking/seeking for
            > something, a sign, and a feeling
            > and it's what you and your mental
            > impressions created/deciphered
            > and found.
            >
            > I'm not saying that we don't
            > or can't have real spiritual
            > experiences. But, when we
            > do it certainly isn't because
            > of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
            > belief and person are not
            > spiritual conduits! Just the
            > opposite! Belief in Eckankar
            > and in "the Mahanta" will
            > only produce deluding Astral
            > experiences which appear
            > greater and "spiritual" in
            > the mind's eye!
            >
            > I, too, have experienced
            > sounds like running water,
            > thunder, buzzing bees,
            > violins and flutes with
            > blue, yellow, golden and
            > bright white lights and
            > more! So what! That's
            > merely the phenomenal
            > world! Much was experienced
            > prior to, some during,
            > and even greater things
            > after Eckankar!
            >
            > If you believe in the KAL,
            > then, deceivers and liars
            > who misrepresent truth
            > are of the KAL.
            >
            > Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
            > and Klemp with their distortions
            > and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
            > and Ruhani Satsang would be of
            > the KAL because they have taken
            > upon themselves to use the trickster
            > trappings and characteristics of KAL.
            >
            > But, all religions are of the KAL
            > or Satan. These religions that
            > Twitchell stole dogma from are
            > just as deceitful and off the mark
            > spiritually.
            >
            > What Eckankar is selling and
            > what you are receiving is not
            > Truth! If you don't understand
            > the ramifications of this, then,
            > you are as deluded and lost as
            > they are. Enjoy your peyote!
            >
            >
            > Prometheus
            > BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
            > This was who he prayed to and
            > wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
            > have been all that enlightened. Mo
            > wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
            > Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
            > "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
            > physical plane is of the "ECK" too
            > correct?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > apollonius wrote:
            > Greetings Prometheus and all,
            >
            > I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
            > disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
            > Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
            > However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
            > Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
            > realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
            > part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
            > by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
            > flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
            > magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.
            >
            > The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
            > professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
            > thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
            > know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
            > me comfort.
            >
            > Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
            > making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
            > have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
            > Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
            > this day.
            >
            > Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
            > own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
            > do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
            > with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
            > recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
            > advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
            > allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.
            >
            > Keep up the good work,
            >
            > From the Heart,
            >
            > Apollonius
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            > > It's interesting to see
            > > and hear what the religious
            > > tricksters and conmen
            > > come up with in order
            > > to rationalize their guilt
            > > away. They will claim to
            > > be providing a "service"
            > > for people... to comfort
            > > them and take away their
            > > fears.
            > >
            > >
            > > Klemp certainly gives Lip
            > > Service to this claim:
            > >
            > > How do the teachings
            > > of Eckankar help people?
            > >
            > > The most important
            > > concept we need to
            > > get across is the continuity
            > > of life and going from
            > > this world to the next
            > > and beyond. People worry
            > > most about meeting
            > > the end of this life. [end]
            > >
            > >
            > > Really? I disagree!
            > >
            > > Now, it could be that
            > > Klemp is concerned with
            > > death since he was born
            > > in 1942. He's getting closer
            > > and closer to the grave.
            > >
            > > And, I'm sure that many
            > > from the Baby Boomer
            > > generation (the generation
            > > Klemp dislikes most) are
            > > thinking more about their
            > > health and the end of life.
            > >
            > > But there are those living
            > > in politically unstable countries
            > > who have more immediate
            > > fears concerning day-to-
            > > day life and freedoms.
            > >
            > > What many people
            > > are concerned about,
            > > here and now, in this
            > > present time versus the
            > > future is having enough
            > > money to pay the bills in
            > > order to continue and
            > > maintain a healthy life
            > > style. And, not being
            > > alone and, thus, dying
            > > alone is an important
            > > issue too.
            > >
            > > Let's face it. People
            > > need God more than
            > > God needs them, unless,
            > > you're Klemp... a false
            > > God called Mahanta!
            > >
            > > Klemp needs his flock
            > > of suckers. Even if HK
            > > stepped aside for the
            > > next conman to take
            > > over he'd still be writing
            > > his trashy books and
            > > be posing as a God of
            > > some sorts. Maybe he'd
            > > move to some private
            > > island and start rumors
            > > that he had been reborn
            > > as Rebazar had. Klemp
            > > wants to continue the
            > > myth to be remembered!
            > >
            > > Young people certainly
            > > aren't concerned about
            > > death... they're concerned
            > > about finding a spouse,
            > > and having a good job,
            > > a place to live, and money
            > > for more education and
            > > a car, and gas.... maybe
            > > a new computer or i-phone/
            > > droid.
            > >
            > > In truth, HK is trying
            > > to purge himself of
            > > his Guilt for not only
            > > having deficiencies
            > > as a God/Master but
            > > for his continued deceit.
            > >
            > > Consequently, he'll boost
            > > his ego and self-important
            > > image and, thus, feel
            > > good hand important
            > > that he's providing a
            > > "spiritual" service for
            > > the New Age segment
            > > of the population who
            > > are attracted to Eckankar's
            > > (Twitchell's) Western
            > > twist and edit of Radhasoami
            > > and Ruhani Satsang.
            > >
            > > But, it (religion) is all
            > > the same... just different
            > > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
            > > Eckankar is no exception!
            > >
            > > HK has millions squirreled
            > > away in an off-shore
            > > account so money and
            > > financial security is not
            > > a problem for him. Time
            > > is Klemp's big enemy
            > > and fear. That's why he
            > > wants to be remembered
            > > as being a great spiritual
            > > master even though his
            > > followers are deluded.
            > >
            > > Don't Eckists "worship"
            > > Klemp, their Mahanta?
            > > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
            > > to trick them! But, he
            > > sees it as being for their
            > > own good... he's helping
            > > them to find peace and
            > > happiness without fear.
            > > Eckists should believe
            > > in themselves, as Soul,
            > > and not give-up Soul's
            > > authority to decide and
            > > know. Initiations are
            > > bogus anyway and are
            > > simply used to dangle
            > > in front of people....
            > > that's the real "plus
            > > element" in Eckankar.
            > > There's Service, Coin,
            > > Time, Promises of
            > > Protection and Guidance
            > > "plus" that next initiation!
            > >
            > > Look at the Spiritual
            > > Exercises of EK that
            > > are designed around
            > > this purpose. Eckists
            > > will dream of, contemplate
            > > upon, and beseech
            > > their God/Mahanta
            > > for all sorts of things.
            > >
            > > These S.E.s are designed
            > > for Eckists to see HK's
            > > physical image don't
            > > they? Thus, the Mahanta
            > > brainwashing is reenforced
            > > over and over on a daily
            > > basis.
            > >
            > > And, this is why it's so
            > > difficult to escape from
            > > codependency. There
            > > can never be real/truthful
            > > "Spiritual Freedom" for
            > > Eckists. They will always
            > > need Klemp... he's their
            > > crutch and their meth.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            >
          • apollonius2k
            Hi Prometheus, Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for being led astray by Eckankar. If you listen to the reasoning of today s Hi s
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Prometheus,

              Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for being led astray by Eckankar. If you listen to the reasoning of today's Hi's (well, the older ones anyway) as to why they still follow Eckankar, this rhetorical question will many times be heard as the answer, "Why throw the baby (Eckankar) out with the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)? I have never let HK "off the hook". He has had 30 years to set the record straight regarding Paul's made up hierarchy and writings, and is yet to do it. Also, It appears that he is bereft of spiritual experiences to write about as multiple times I caught him using my experiences and others in his HI teaching lessons.

              In the early days we read and were told that the books and myth Paul Twitchell built was absolute truth. For me, there had been many prior years of extra-physical experiences including the blue and other lights dating back to when I was three years old. I really didn't care about the myth or the LEM so much as the wealth of research contained therein. How the concepts bounced around inside my little sphere of consciousness and took me to a different place. These ideas could be tried and discarded or kept as "My" individual truths.

              As I rose through the ranks of Eckankar there was a peculiar thing that I noticed. The Mahdi were not practicing what they preached and it seemed like I was always in their cross hairs. This special attention and the energy they spewed uncontrolled, allowed me to become much stronger. There were many arguments that ensued all along the way, even with Darwin. My point was always that it is the individual path that counts, not the group or worship of a leader. If the LEM didn't know about me personally (which I discovered to be true the first time I met Darwin) then I was on my own.

              Prometheus said,
              >Yes, we all need to cut the
              > ties to any and all religions.
              > Religions are distortions
              > of Truth that are designed
              > around mass consumption.
              >
              > A group consciousness,
              > and even that within a
              > "circle of initiation," will
              > always be lower or stunted
              > than what the individual
              > can/will achieve when free
              > and unimpeded. Of course,
              > all initiations, of any sort,
              > are fraudulent!
              >
              > Consciousness is not handed
              > out by a demigod and printed
              > on an EK membership card.

              Agreed

              To my knowledge, Rumi couched his verbiage in the terms of the day. According to what I have researched, Rumi's teacher Shamsi was murdered for blasphemy against Islam.

              Though I can honestly say I never met any of Paul Twitchell's masters (and I doubt he did either) there have been times in my life when a "helper" appeared out of nowhere and guided me in a new direction with new ideas to think about. Whether I call them masters or any other term is irrelevant to me, they assisted my path and that's all that was needed.


              Cheers,

              Apollonius

              ---
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Apollonius and All, I ll respond to your comments below. apollonius wrote: Hi Prometheus, Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 6, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Apollonius and All,
                I'll respond to your
                comments below.

                apollonius wrote:
                Hi Prometheus,

                Many, and rightfully so,
                have strong feelings of
                resentment for being led
                astray by Eckankar.

                If you listen to the reasoning
                of today's Hi's (well, the
                older ones anyway) as to
                why they still follow Eckankar,
                this rhetorical question
                will many times be heard
                as the answer, "Why throw
                the baby (Eckankar) out with
                the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)?

                I have never let HK "off the
                hook". He has had 30 years
                to set the record straight
                regarding Paul's made up
                hierarchy and writings, and
                is yet to do it. Also, It appears
                that he is bereft of spiritual
                experiences to write about
                as multiple times I caught
                him using my experiences
                and others in his HI teaching
                lessons.



                *****************************
                ME: The truth as to why longtime
                H.I.s have remained in Eckankar
                has nothing to do with Truth. It's
                all about fear and ego! They fear
                not having their EK friends and
                family members in their lives but,
                also, not having their admirers.
                Plus, look at all of that time and
                money they have invested and
                the initiations they've received.
                Many were "grandfathered" in
                without having to jump through
                the hoops that HK requires today.
                Besides, there's always the hope
                of getting that 8th or 9th Outer
                initiation. This is why the "baby"
                isn't thrown out with the dirty
                bath water... and why the bath
                water is used over and over,
                again and again.
                ******************************


                In the early days we read and
                were told that the books and
                myth Paul Twitchell built was
                absolute truth. For me, there
                had been many prior years of
                extra-physical experiences
                including the blue and other
                lights dating back to when I
                was three years old. I really
                didn't care about the myth or
                the LEM so much as the wealth
                of research contained therein.
                How the concepts bounced
                around inside my little sphere
                of consciousness and took me
                to a different place. These ideas
                could be tried and discarded
                or kept as "My" individual
                truths.



                ****************************
                ME: Twitchell, as a conman,
                learned that many people
                have many things in common.
                Everyone dreams. And if one
                places attention upon the
                mysteries and myth of the
                spiritual realm they will dream
                and "see" things. I'm not
                saying that your experiences,
                especially, as a child weren't
                real, but I also know that
                parents and adults can
                mess with what a child thinks
                is real. Sometimes it's done
                out of "fun" by a somewhat
                deviant parent or relative.
                Sometimes, the fun is more
                of a cultural/religious thing
                like with Santa Claus or the
                Easter Bunny.
                *****************************


                As I rose through the
                ranks of Eckankar there
                was a peculiar thing that
                I noticed. The Mahdi were
                not practicing what they
                preached and it seemed
                like I was always in their
                cross hairs. This special
                attention and the energy
                they spewed uncontrolled,
                allowed me to become
                much stronger. There
                were many arguments
                that ensued all along the
                way, even with Darwin.
                My point was always
                that it is the individual
                path that counts, not the
                group or worship of a
                leader. If the LEM didn't
                know about me personally
                (which I discovered to be
                true the first time I met
                Darwin) then I was on my
                own.


                ***************************
                ME: Yes, there's a lot of
                ego associated with being
                an H.I. (leader). Ego was
                always rationalized away
                and looked upon as a
                "teaching tool" or as a "coat"
                that could be put on and
                taken off. It wasn't true
                but it did help to explain
                away the personality changes.
                I know that when I was at
                ECK events, in leadership
                roles, I almost always came
                across as being serious.
                I knew that I was being
                watched and evaluated
                and had to be careful to
                portray myself well. I, also,
                had to be cognizant of the
                proper procedures to follow
                which are spelled out in
                the "Guidelines." All of
                this was quite stressful.
                Why? Because I saw first
                hand what could happen
                to those who fell out-of-
                grace with the RESA.

                Yes, Klemp wouldn't know
                anything about his H.I.s,
                either, if it wasn't for the
                reports his RESAs send to
                the ESC. Everyone has a
                file and black marks and
                red flags can have initiations
                and positions put on a
                three-five year (or longer)
                hold. Sometimes there are
                things put into your ESC
                file and sometimes it's
                just that one RESA.
                ******************************
                MORE COMMENTS BELOW
                ******************************

                Prometheus said,
                >Yes, we all need to cut the
                > ties to any and all religions.
                > Religions are distortions
                > of Truth that are designed
                > around mass consumption.
                >
                > A group consciousness,
                > and even that within a
                > "circle of initiation," will
                > always be lower or stunted
                > than what the individual
                > can/will achieve when free
                > and unimpeded. Of course,
                > all initiations, of any sort,
                > are fraudulent!
                >
                > Consciousness is not handed
                > out by a demigod and printed
                > on an EK membership card.

                Agreed

                To my knowledge, Rumi
                couched his verbiage
                in the terms of the day.
                According to what I have
                researched, Rumi's teacher
                Shamsi was murdered
                for blasphemy against
                Islam.


                ****************************
                ME: It's usually thought that
                Rumi's companions killed Shams
                because they were jealous of
                him. After all, much of Rumi's
                poetry was inspired by the love
                he had for his friend and master.....
                Shams.

                However, Shams was Sunni.
                So, it could be that he was
                murdered by the more orthodox
                Shiites. IMO-Only a Shiite would
                say that Shams (a Sunni) was
                blasphemous.
                ********************************

                Though I can honestly say
                I never met any of Paul
                Twitchell's masters (and
                I doubt he did either) there
                have been times in my
                life when a "helper" appeared
                out of nowhere and guided
                me in a new direction with
                new ideas to think about.
                Whether I call them masters
                or any other term is irrelevant
                to me, they assisted my path
                and that's all that was needed.

                ******************************
                ME: I, too, have had experiences
                throughout life where it seemed
                I was being protected (mostly from
                myself) or was receiving guidance.
                Early on, Jesus would appear to
                me. I was a seeker and always
                seemed to be beseeching some
                spiritual authority for answers/
                guidance. But most people do
                the same! That's how/why the
                gods were created and, one reason,
                as to why religion was created.
                The other reasons for religions
                is to control the masses by
                alleviating their fears and giving
                hope of a better, pain free, afterlife.
                Plus, it's a money maker for those
                at the top of the hierarchy.


                Anyway, it was no surprise to
                see "EK Masters" in my dreams.
                It's funny that Eckankar validates
                itself with a handful of testimonials
                from people (innocent newbies)
                who claim they met a certain EK
                Master "prior" to joining Eckankar!
                It's kind of like (not really) St. Paul's
                experience with seeing Jesus while
                on the road to Damascus. Except
                Paul/Saul was blinded for three
                days. Hey, is that, and the Trinity,
                how Paul came up with/invented
                the, superstitious, EK Principle
                of the Threes?
                *********************************


                Cheers,

                Apollonius
              • Russ Rodnick
                I won t disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.   experiences
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 7, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  I won't disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.
                   
                  experiences further are phenomenal. I do not recommend believing that these are signs of knowing what truth is. they point the way in my opinion to something which is deeper, and more complete.
                   
                  But too the veracity of one's teachers cannot be questioned. and if these teachers are merely unconscous transmitters of ideas that they do not really understand themselves and not understanding misuse these ideas to gratify their own egos howver sweet these egotistical liars are you as the sincere student would probably be able to use these methods and ascertain some truths but how deeply and completely and why would you want to stay in Eckankar after looking behind the curtain?
                  I worry that phenomena can give a false security and Eckankar gives plenty of false security.
                   
                  I used to think compromising thoughts too, and for some it might prove to be a good. but it is a trap too. That's the thing I would be caution about.
                   
                  The search for meaning and truth is all important to me. Deeper realization of being is possible with an independant attitude. Study of the self, being and personality.
                   
                  Anyway, truth is not easy though sometimes it seems so, in my experience.
                  From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                  To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 11:35 PM
                  Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

                   
                  Hello Apollonius and All,
                  I'm not wrong. One cannot
                  find enlightenment via the
                  the false teachings of Eckankar.
                  It's called delusional, wishful,
                  and magical thinking.

                  However, it's possible that
                  one might find enlightenment
                  despite Eckankar and by seeing
                  the truth about Eckankar and
                  that of all religions and group
                  manmade dogmas. Man created
                  God in man's image and man
                  created religion as well. Women
                  created mankind, but men still
                  won't give them credit! LOL!

                  As for the Blue Light thingie.
                  That's something that many
                  people will see irregardless of
                  Eckankar. It's been proven and
                  written about and that's how
                  PT found it. He stole everything
                  and probably never had an
                  original thought worth anything.

                  Remember, the liar Twitchell
                  didn't create the Mahanta or
                  the Blue Light of the Mahanta
                  until Jan. 1969. This has been
                  proven via past Wisdom Notes.

                  Yes, I too knew Helen and
                  Millie (Workman) Moore.
                  Did you, too, go to HK's
                  Satsang class with Helen
                  across the desert of LV?

                  Just because you had a
                  personal spiritual experience
                  and connect that to some
                  of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
                  same charismatic conman,
                  doesn't mean you should
                  give Klemp a free pass. He's
                  done much more harm than
                  good by making Eckists
                  codependent upon him.

                  The lies do matter!

                  If you haven't figured that out
                  you're as deluded as the rest.

                  That one experience you had,
                  long ago, was probably "caused"
                  by your belief in Eckankar and
                  influenced by other people and
                  the nature of the situation. All
                  of you were looking/seeking for
                  something, a sign, and a feeling
                  and it's what you and your mental
                  impressions created/deciphered
                  and found.

                  I'm not saying that we don't
                  or can't have real spiritual
                  experiences. But, when we
                  do it certainly isn't because
                  of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
                  belief and person are not
                  spiritual conduits! Just the
                  opposite! Belief in Eckankar
                  and in "the Mahanta" will
                  only produce deluding Astral
                  experiences which appear
                  greater and "spiritual" in
                  the mind's eye!

                  I, too, have experienced
                  sounds like running water,
                  thunder, buzzing bees,
                  violins and flutes with
                  blue, yellow, golden and
                  bright white lights and
                  more! So what! That's
                  merely the phenomenal
                  world! Much was experienced
                  prior to, some during,
                  and even greater things
                  after Eckankar!

                  If you believe in the KAL,
                  then, deceivers and liars
                  who misrepresent truth
                  are of the KAL.

                  Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
                  and Klemp with their distortions
                  and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
                  and Ruhani Satsang would be of
                  the KAL because they have taken
                  upon themselves to use the trickster
                  trappings and characteristics of KAL.

                  But, all religions are of the KAL
                  or Satan. These religions that
                  Twitchell stole dogma from are
                  just as deceitful and off the mark
                  spiritually.

                  What Eckankar is selling and
                  what you are receiving is not
                  Truth! If you don't understand
                  the ramifications of this, then,
                  you are as deluded and lost as
                  they are. Enjoy your peyote!

                  Prometheus
                  BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
                  This was who he prayed to and
                  wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
                  have been all that enlightened. Mo
                  wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
                  Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
                  "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
                  physical plane is of the "ECK" too
                  correct?

                  apollonius wrote:
                  Greetings Prometheus and all,

                  I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
                  disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
                  Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
                  However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
                  Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
                  realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
                  part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
                  by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
                  flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
                  magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

                  The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
                  professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
                  thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
                  know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
                  me comfort.

                  Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
                  making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
                  have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
                  Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
                  this day.

                  Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
                  own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
                  do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
                  with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
                  recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
                  advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
                  allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

                  Keep up the good work,

                  From the Heart,

                  Apollonius

                  >
                  > It's interesting to see
                  > and hear what the religious
                  > tricksters and conmen
                  > come up with in order
                  > to rationalize their guilt
                  > away. They will claim to
                  > be providing a "service"
                  > for people... to comfort
                  > them and take away their
                  > fears.
                  >
                  >
                  > Klemp certainly gives Lip
                  > Service to this claim:
                  >
                  > How do the teachings
                  > of Eckankar help people?
                  >
                  > The most important
                  > concept we need to
                  > get across is the continuity
                  > of life and going from
                  > this world to the next
                  > and beyond. People worry
                  > most about meeting
                  > the end of this life. [end]
                  >
                  >
                  > Really? I disagree!
                  >
                  > Now, it could be that
                  > Klemp is concerned with
                  > death since he was born
                  > in 1942. He's getting closer
                  > and closer to the grave.
                  >
                  > And, I'm sure that many
                  > from the Baby Boomer
                  > generation (the generation
                  > Klemp dislikes most) are
                  > thinking more about their
                  > health and the end of life.
                  >
                  > But there are those living
                  > in politically unstable countries
                  > who have more immediate
                  > fears concerning day-to-
                  > day life and freedoms.
                  >
                  > What many people
                  > are concerned about,
                  > here and now, in this
                  > present time versus the
                  > future is having enough
                  > money to pay the bills in
                  > order to continue and
                  > maintain a healthy life
                  > style. And, not being
                  > alone and, thus, dying
                  > alone is an important
                  > issue too.
                  >
                  > Let's face it. People
                  > need God more than
                  > God needs them, unless,
                  > you're Klemp... a false
                  > God called Mahanta!
                  >
                  > Klemp needs his flock
                  > of suckers. Even if HK
                  > stepped aside for the
                  > next conman to take
                  > over he'd still be writing
                  > his trashy books and
                  > be posing as a God of
                  > some sorts. Maybe he'd
                  > move to some private
                  > island and start rumors
                  > that he had been reborn
                  > as Rebazar had. Klemp
                  > wants to continue the
                  > myth to be remembered!
                  >
                  > Young people certainly
                  > aren't concerned about
                  > death... they're concerned
                  > about finding a spouse,
                  > and having a good job,
                  > a place to live, and money
                  > for more education and
                  > a car, and gas.... maybe
                  > a new computer or i-phone/
                  > droid.
                  >
                  > In truth, HK is trying
                  > to purge himself of
                  > his Guilt for not only
                  > having deficiencies
                  > as a God/Master but
                  > for his continued deceit.
                  >
                  > Consequently, he'll boost
                  > his ego and self-important
                  > image and, thus, feel
                  > good hand important
                  > that he's providing a
                  > "spiritual" service for
                  > the New Age segment
                  > of the population who
                  > are attracted to Eckankar's
                  > (Twitchell's) Western
                  > twist and edit of Radhasoami
                  > and Ruhani Satsang.
                  >
                  > But, it (religion) is all
                  > the same... just different
                  > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
                  > Eckankar is no exception!
                  >
                  > HK has millions squirreled
                  > away in an off-shore
                  > account so money and
                  > financial security is not
                  > a problem for him. Time
                  > is Klemp's big enemy
                  > and fear. That's why he
                  > wants to be remembered
                  > as being a great spiritual
                  > master even though his
                  > followers are deluded.
                  >
                  > Don't Eckists "worship"
                  > Klemp, their Mahanta?
                  > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
                  > to trick them! But, he
                  > sees it as being for their
                  > own good... he's helping
                  > them to find peace and
                  > happiness without fear.
                  > Eckists should believe
                  > in themselves, as Soul,
                  > and not give-up Soul's
                  > authority to decide and
                  > know. Initiations are
                  > bogus anyway and are
                  > simply used to dangle
                  > in front of people....
                  > that's the real "plus
                  > element" in Eckankar.
                  > There's Service, Coin,
                  > Time, Promises of
                  > Protection and Guidance
                  > "plus" that next initiation!
                  >
                  > Look at the Spiritual
                  > Exercises of EK that
                  > are designed around
                  > this purpose. Eckists
                  > will dream of, contemplate
                  > upon, and beseech
                  > their God/Mahanta
                  > for all sorts of things.
                  >
                  > These S.E.s are designed
                  > for Eckists to see HK's
                  > physical image don't
                  > they? Thus, the Mahanta
                  > brainwashing is reenforced
                  > over and over on a daily
                  > basis.
                  >
                  > And, this is why it's so
                  > difficult to escape from
                  > codependency. There
                  > can never be real/truthful
                  > "Spiritual Freedom" for
                  > Eckists. They will always
                  > need Klemp... he's their
                  > crutch and their meth.
                  >
                  > Prometheus



                • Janice Pfeiffer
                  I did a lot of self discovery and study of various kinds of spiritual paths before I ever heard of eckankar.  It didn t prevent me from being suckered in. 
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 7, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I did a lot of self discovery and study of various kinds of spiritual paths before I ever heard of eckankar.  It didn't prevent me from being suckered in.  Further more, I didn't see the truth until  I was told by an actual HI how things really happened with initiations.  I don't know why he told me except he felt some compassion for my confusion and some how knew I needed real answers instead of more eck jargon.  At this point, I don't see any sense in blaming others who were mislead no matter how they performed as eckist or how they are handling their past associations with eckankar now.  You do become brain washed and it takes a lot of will power to give it up.   Eckankar is a world unto itself.  It is the perpetrators and those in Minneapolis who are keeping the deception going.  If any one feels a need to express their anger in any way, I feel it is best placed on the so called leaders of eckankar.  jepfeiffer

                    --- On Tue, 2/7/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                    From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                    Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud
                    To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Tuesday, February 7, 2012, 10:41 PM

                     
                    I won't disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.
                     
                    experiences further are phenomenal. I do not recommend believing that these are signs of knowing what truth is. they point the way in my opinion to something which is deeper, and more complete.
                     
                    But too the veracity of one's teachers cannot be questioned. and if these teachers are merely unconscous transmitters of ideas that they do not really understand themselves and not understanding misuse these ideas to gratify their own egos howver sweet these egotistical liars are you as the sincere student would probably be able to use these methods and ascertain some truths but how deeply and completely and why would you want to stay in Eckankar after looking behind the curtain?
                    I worry that phenomena can give a false security and Eckankar gives plenty of false security.
                     
                    I used to think compromising thoughts too, and for some it might prove to be a good. but it is a trap too. That's the thing I would be caution about.
                     
                    The search for meaning and truth is all important to me. Deeper realization of being is possible with an independant attitude. Study of the self, being and personality.
                     
                    Anyway, truth is not easy though sometimes it seems so, in my experience.
                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 11:35 PM
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

                     
                    Hello Apollonius and All,
                    I'm not wrong. One cannot
                    find enlightenment via the
                    the false teachings of Eckankar.
                    It's called delusional, wishful,
                    and magical thinking.

                    However, it's possible that
                    one might find enlightenment
                    despite Eckankar and by seeing
                    the truth about Eckankar and
                    that of all religions and group
                    manmade dogmas. Man created
                    God in man's image and man
                    created religion as well. Women
                    created mankind, but men still
                    won't give them credit! LOL!

                    As for the Blue Light thingie.
                    That's something that many
                    people will see irregardless of
                    Eckankar. It's been proven and
                    written about and that's how
                    PT found it. He stole everything
                    and probably never had an
                    original thought worth anything.

                    Remember, the liar Twitchell
                    didn't create the Mahanta or
                    the Blue Light of the Mahanta
                    until Jan. 1969. This has been
                    proven via past Wisdom Notes.

                    Yes, I too knew Helen and
                    Millie (Workman) Moore.
                    Did you, too, go to HK's
                    Satsang class with Helen
                    across the desert of LV?

                    Just because you had a
                    personal spiritual experience
                    and connect that to some
                    of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
                    same charismatic conman,
                    doesn't mean you should
                    give Klemp a free pass. He's
                    done much more harm than
                    good by making Eckists
                    codependent upon him.

                    The lies do matter!

                    If you haven't figured that out
                    you're as deluded as the rest.

                    That one experience you had,
                    long ago, was probably "caused"
                    by your belief in Eckankar and
                    influenced by other people and
                    the nature of the situation. All
                    of you were looking/seeking for
                    something, a sign, and a feeling
                    and it's what you and your mental
                    impressions created/deciphered
                    and found.

                    I'm not saying that we don't
                    or can't have real spiritual
                    experiences. But, when we
                    do it certainly isn't because
                    of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
                    belief and person are not
                    spiritual conduits! Just the
                    opposite! Belief in Eckankar
                    and in "the Mahanta" will
                    only produce deluding Astral
                    experiences which appear
                    greater and "spiritual" in
                    the mind's eye!

                    I, too, have experienced
                    sounds like running water,
                    thunder, buzzing bees,
                    violins and flutes with
                    blue, yellow, golden and
                    bright white lights and
                    more! So what! That's
                    merely the phenomenal
                    world! Much was experienced
                    prior to, some during,
                    and even greater things
                    after Eckankar!

                    If you believe in the KAL,
                    then, deceivers and liars
                    who misrepresent truth
                    are of the KAL.

                    Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
                    and Klemp with their distortions
                    and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
                    and Ruhani Satsang would be of
                    the KAL because they have taken
                    upon themselves to use the trickster
                    trappings and characteristics of KAL.

                    But, all religions are of the KAL
                    or Satan. These religions that
                    Twitchell stole dogma from are
                    just as deceitful and off the mark
                    spiritually.

                    What Eckankar is selling and
                    what you are receiving is not
                    Truth! If you don't understand
                    the ramifications of this, then,
                    you are as deluded and lost as
                    they are. Enjoy your peyote!

                    Prometheus
                    BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
                    This was who he prayed to and
                    wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
                    have been all that enlightened. Mo
                    wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
                    Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
                    "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
                    physical plane is of the "ECK" too
                    correct?

                    apollonius wrote:
                    Greetings Prometheus and all,

                    I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
                    disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
                    Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
                    However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
                    Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
                    realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
                    part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
                    by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
                    flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
                    magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

                    The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
                    professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
                    thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
                    know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
                    me comfort.

                    Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
                    making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
                    have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
                    Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
                    this day.

                    Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
                    own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
                    do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
                    with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
                    recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
                    advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
                    allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

                    Keep up the good work,

                    From the Heart,

                    Apollonius

                    >
                    > It's interesting to see
                    > and hear what the religious
                    > tricksters and conmen
                    > come up with in order
                    > to rationalize their guilt
                    > away. They will claim to
                    > be providing a "service"
                    > for people... to comfort
                    > them and take away their
                    > fears.
                    >
                    >
                    > Klemp certainly gives Lip
                    > Service to this claim:
                    >
                    > How do the teachings
                    > of Eckankar help people?
                    >
                    > The most important
                    > concept we need to
                    > get across is the continuity
                    > of life and going from
                    > this world to the next
                    > and beyond. People worry
                    > most about meeting
                    > the end of this life. [end]
                    >
                    >
                    > Really? I disagree!
                    >
                    > Now, it could be that
                    > Klemp is concerned with
                    > death since he was born
                    > in 1942. He's getting closer
                    > and closer to the grave.
                    >
                    > And, I'm sure that many
                    > from the Baby Boomer
                    > generation (the generation
                    > Klemp dislikes most) are
                    > thinking more about their
                    > health and the end of life.
                    >
                    > But there are those living
                    > in politically unstable countries
                    > who have more immediate
                    > fears concerning day-to-
                    > day life and freedoms.
                    >
                    > What many people
                    > are concerned about,
                    > here and now, in this
                    > present time versus the
                    > future is having enough
                    > money to pay the bills in
                    > order to continue and
                    > maintain a healthy life
                    > style. And, not being
                    > alone and, thus, dying
                    > alone is an important
                    > issue too.
                    >
                    > Let's face it. People
                    > need God more than
                    > God needs them, unless,
                    > you're Klemp... a false
                    > God called Mahanta!
                    >
                    > Klemp needs his flock
                    > of suckers. Even if HK
                    > stepped aside for the
                    > next conman to take
                    > over he'd still be writing
                    > his trashy books and
                    > be posing as a God of
                    > some sorts. Maybe he'd
                    > move to some private
                    > island and start rumors
                    > that he had been reborn
                    > as Rebazar had. Klemp
                    > wants to continue the
                    > myth to be remembered!
                    >
                    > Young people certainly
                    > aren't concerned about
                    > death... they're concerned
                    > about finding a spouse,
                    > and having a good job,
                    > a place to live, and money
                    > for more education and
                    > a car, and gas.... maybe
                    > a new computer or i-phone/
                    > droid.
                    >
                    > In truth, HK is trying
                    > to purge himself of
                    > his Guilt for not only
                    > having deficiencies
                    > as a God/Master but
                    > for his continued deceit.
                    >
                    > Consequently, he'll boost
                    > his ego and self-important
                    > image and, thus, feel
                    > good hand important
                    > that he's providing a
                    > "spiritual" service for
                    > the New Age segment
                    > of the population who
                    > are attracted to Eckankar's
                    > (Twitchell's) Western
                    > twist and edit of Radhasoami
                    > and Ruhani Satsang.
                    >
                    > But, it (religion) is all
                    > the same... just different
                    > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
                    > Eckankar is no exception!
                    >
                    > HK has millions squirreled
                    > away in an off-shore
                    > account so money and
                    > financial security is not
                    > a problem for him. Time
                    > is Klemp's big enemy
                    > and fear. That's why he
                    > wants to be remembered
                    > as being a great spiritual
                    > master even though his
                    > followers are deluded.
                    >
                    > Don't Eckists "worship"
                    > Klemp, their Mahanta?
                    > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
                    > to trick them! But, he
                    > sees it as being for their
                    > own good... he's helping
                    > them to find peace and
                    > happiness without fear.
                    > Eckists should believe
                    > in themselves, as Soul,
                    > and not give-up Soul's
                    > authority to decide and
                    > know. Initiations are
                    > bogus anyway and are
                    > simply used to dangle
                    > in front of people....
                    > that's the real "plus
                    > element" in Eckankar.
                    > There's Service, Coin,
                    > Time, Promises of
                    > Protection and Guidance
                    > "plus" that next initiation!
                    >
                    > Look at the Spiritual
                    > Exercises of EK that
                    > are designed around
                    > this purpose. Eckists
                    > will dream of, contemplate
                    > upon, and beseech
                    > their God/Mahanta
                    > for all sorts of things.
                    >
                    > These S.E.s are designed
                    > for Eckists to see HK's
                    > physical image don't
                    > they? Thus, the Mahanta
                    > brainwashing is reenforced
                    > over and over on a daily
                    > basis.
                    >
                    > And, this is why it's so
                    > difficult to escape from
                    > codependency. There
                    > can never be real/truthful
                    > "Spiritual Freedom" for
                    > Eckists. They will always
                    > need Klemp... he's their
                    > crutch and their meth.
                    >
                    > Prometheus



                  • apollonius2k
                    Good points Prometheus!
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 8, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Good points Prometheus!

                      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Apollonius and All,
                      > I'll respond to your
                      > comments below.
                      >
                      > apollonius wrote:
                      > Hi Prometheus,
                      >
                      > Many, and rightfully so,
                      > have strong feelings of
                      > resentment for being led
                      > astray by Eckankar.
                      >
                      > If you listen to the reasoning
                      > of today's Hi's (well, the
                      > older ones anyway) as to
                      > why they still follow Eckankar,
                      > this rhetorical question
                      > will many times be heard
                      > as the answer, "Why throw
                      > the baby (Eckankar) out with
                      > the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)?
                      >
                      > I have never let HK "off the
                      > hook". He has had 30 years
                      > to set the record straight
                      > regarding Paul's made up
                      > hierarchy and writings, and
                      > is yet to do it. Also, It appears
                      > that he is bereft of spiritual
                      > experiences to write about
                      > as multiple times I caught
                      > him using my experiences
                      > and others in his HI teaching
                      > lessons.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > *****************************
                      > ME: The truth as to why longtime
                      > H.I.s have remained in Eckankar
                      > has nothing to do with Truth. It's
                      > all about fear and ego! They fear
                      > not having their EK friends and
                      > family members in their lives but,
                      > also, not having their admirers.
                      > Plus, look at all of that time and
                      > money they have invested and
                      > the initiations they've received.
                      > Many were "grandfathered" in
                      > without having to jump through
                      > the hoops that HK requires today.
                      > Besides, there's always the hope
                      > of getting that 8th or 9th Outer
                      > initiation. This is why the "baby"
                      > isn't thrown out with the dirty
                      > bath water... and why the bath
                      > water is used over and over,
                      > again and again.
                      > ******************************
                      >
                      >
                      > In the early days we read and
                      > were told that the books and
                      > myth Paul Twitchell built was
                      > absolute truth. For me, there
                      > had been many prior years of
                      > extra-physical experiences
                      > including the blue and other
                      > lights dating back to when I
                      > was three years old. I really
                      > didn't care about the myth or
                      > the LEM so much as the wealth
                      > of research contained therein.
                      > How the concepts bounced
                      > around inside my little sphere
                      > of consciousness and took me
                      > to a different place. These ideas
                      > could be tried and discarded
                      > or kept as "My" individual
                      > truths.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ****************************
                      > ME: Twitchell, as a conman,
                      > learned that many people
                      > have many things in common.
                      > Everyone dreams. And if one
                      > places attention upon the
                      > mysteries and myth of the
                      > spiritual realm they will dream
                      > and "see" things. I'm not
                      > saying that your experiences,
                      > especially, as a child weren't
                      > real, but I also know that
                      > parents and adults can
                      > mess with what a child thinks
                      > is real. Sometimes it's done
                      > out of "fun" by a somewhat
                      > deviant parent or relative.
                      > Sometimes, the fun is more
                      > of a cultural/religious thing
                      > like with Santa Claus or the
                      > Easter Bunny.
                      > *****************************
                      >
                      >
                      > As I rose through the
                      > ranks of Eckankar there
                      > was a peculiar thing that
                      > I noticed. The Mahdi were
                      > not practicing what they
                      > preached and it seemed
                      > like I was always in their
                      > cross hairs. This special
                      > attention and the energy
                      > they spewed uncontrolled,
                      > allowed me to become
                      > much stronger. There
                      > were many arguments
                      > that ensued all along the
                      > way, even with Darwin.
                      > My point was always
                      > that it is the individual
                      > path that counts, not the
                      > group or worship of a
                      > leader. If the LEM didn't
                      > know about me personally
                      > (which I discovered to be
                      > true the first time I met
                      > Darwin) then I was on my
                      > own.
                      >
                      >
                      > ***************************
                      > ME: Yes, there's a lot of
                      > ego associated with being
                      > an H.I. (leader). Ego was
                      > always rationalized away
                      > and looked upon as a
                      > "teaching tool" or as a "coat"
                      > that could be put on and
                      > taken off. It wasn't true
                      > but it did help to explain
                      > away the personality changes.
                      > I know that when I was at
                      > ECK events, in leadership
                      > roles, I almost always came
                      > across as being serious.
                      > I knew that I was being
                      > watched and evaluated
                      > and had to be careful to
                      > portray myself well. I, also,
                      > had to be cognizant of the
                      > proper procedures to follow
                      > which are spelled out in
                      > the "Guidelines." All of
                      > this was quite stressful.
                      > Why? Because I saw first
                      > hand what could happen
                      > to those who fell out-of-
                      > grace with the RESA.
                      >
                      > Yes, Klemp wouldn't know
                      > anything about his H.I.s,
                      > either, if it wasn't for the
                      > reports his RESAs send to
                      > the ESC. Everyone has a
                      > file and black marks and
                      > red flags can have initiations
                      > and positions put on a
                      > three-five year (or longer)
                      > hold. Sometimes there are
                      > things put into your ESC
                      > file and sometimes it's
                      > just that one RESA.
                      > ******************************
                      > MORE COMMENTS BELOW
                      > ******************************
                      >
                      > Prometheus said,
                      > >Yes, we all need to cut the
                      > > ties to any and all religions.
                      > > Religions are distortions
                      > > of Truth that are designed
                      > > around mass consumption.
                      > >
                      > > A group consciousness,
                      > > and even that within a
                      > > "circle of initiation," will
                      > > always be lower or stunted
                      > > than what the individual
                      > > can/will achieve when free
                      > > and unimpeded. Of course,
                      > > all initiations, of any sort,
                      > > are fraudulent!
                      > >
                      > > Consciousness is not handed
                      > > out by a demigod and printed
                      > > on an EK membership card.
                      >
                      > Agreed
                      >
                      > To my knowledge, Rumi
                      > couched his verbiage
                      > in the terms of the day.
                      > According to what I have
                      > researched, Rumi's teacher
                      > Shamsi was murdered
                      > for blasphemy against
                      > Islam.
                      >
                      >
                      > ****************************
                      > ME: It's usually thought that
                      > Rumi's companions killed Shams
                      > because they were jealous of
                      > him. After all, much of Rumi's
                      > poetry was inspired by the love
                      > he had for his friend and master.....
                      > Shams.
                      >
                      > However, Shams was Sunni.
                      > So, it could be that he was
                      > murdered by the more orthodox
                      > Shiites. IMO-Only a Shiite would
                      > say that Shams (a Sunni) was
                      > blasphemous.
                      > ********************************
                      >
                      > Though I can honestly say
                      > I never met any of Paul
                      > Twitchell's masters (and
                      > I doubt he did either) there
                      > have been times in my
                      > life when a "helper" appeared
                      > out of nowhere and guided
                      > me in a new direction with
                      > new ideas to think about.
                      > Whether I call them masters
                      > or any other term is irrelevant
                      > to me, they assisted my path
                      > and that's all that was needed.
                      >
                      > ******************************
                      > ME: I, too, have had experiences
                      > throughout life where it seemed
                      > I was being protected (mostly from
                      > myself) or was receiving guidance.
                      > Early on, Jesus would appear to
                      > me. I was a seeker and always
                      > seemed to be beseeching some
                      > spiritual authority for answers/
                      > guidance. But most people do
                      > the same! That's how/why the
                      > gods were created and, one reason,
                      > as to why religion was created.
                      > The other reasons for religions
                      > is to control the masses by
                      > alleviating their fears and giving
                      > hope of a better, pain free, afterlife.
                      > Plus, it's a money maker for those
                      > at the top of the hierarchy.
                      >
                      >
                      > Anyway, it was no surprise to
                      > see "EK Masters" in my dreams.
                      > It's funny that Eckankar validates
                      > itself with a handful of testimonials
                      > from people (innocent newbies)
                      > who claim they met a certain EK
                      > Master "prior" to joining Eckankar!
                      > It's kind of like (not really) St. Paul's
                      > experience with seeing Jesus while
                      > on the road to Damascus. Except
                      > Paul/Saul was blinded for three
                      > days. Hey, is that, and the Trinity,
                      > how Paul came up with/invented
                      > the, superstitious, EK Principle
                      > of the Threes?
                      > *********************************
                      >
                      >
                      > Cheers,
                      >
                      > Apollonius
                      >
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.