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Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

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  • apollonius2k
    Greetings Prometheus and all, I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 3, 2012
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      Greetings Prometheus and all,

      I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD. However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

      The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave me comfort.
      Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to this day.

      Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

      Keep up the good work,

      From the Heart,

      Apollonius




      >
      > It's interesting to see
      > and hear what the religious
      > tricksters and conmen
      > come up with in order
      > to rationalize their guilt
      > away. They will claim to
      > be providing a "service"
      > for people... to comfort
      > them and take away their
      > fears.
      >
      >
      > Klemp certainly gives Lip
      > Service to this claim:
      >
      > How do the teachings
      > of Eckankar help people?
      >
      > The most important
      > concept we need to
      > get across is the continuity
      > of life and going from
      > this world to the next
      > and beyond. People worry
      > most about meeting
      > the end of this life. [end]
      >
      >
      > Really? I disagree!
      >
      > Now, it could be that
      > Klemp is concerned with
      > death since he was born
      > in 1942. He's getting closer
      > and closer to the grave.
      >
      > And, I'm sure that many
      > from the Baby Boomer
      > generation (the generation
      > Klemp dislikes most) are
      > thinking more about their
      > health and the end of life.
      >
      > But there are those living
      > in politically unstable countries
      > who have more immediate
      > fears concerning day-to-
      > day life and freedoms.
      >
      > What many people
      > are concerned about,
      > here and now, in this
      > present time versus the
      > future is having enough
      > money to pay the bills in
      > order to continue and
      > maintain a healthy life
      > style. And, not being
      > alone and, thus, dying
      > alone is an important
      > issue too.
      >
      > Let's face it. People
      > need God more than
      > God needs them, unless,
      > you're Klemp... a false
      > God called Mahanta!
      >
      > Klemp needs his flock
      > of suckers. Even if HK
      > stepped aside for the
      > next conman to take
      > over he'd still be writing
      > his trashy books and
      > be posing as a God of
      > some sorts. Maybe he'd
      > move to some private
      > island and start rumors
      > that he had been reborn
      > as Rebazar had. Klemp
      > wants to continue the
      > myth to be remembered!
      >
      > Young people certainly
      > aren't concerned about
      > death... they're concerned
      > about finding a spouse,
      > and having a good job,
      > a place to live, and money
      > for more education and
      > a car, and gas.... maybe
      > a new computer or i-phone/
      > droid.
      >
      > In truth, HK is trying
      > to purge himself of
      > his Guilt for not only
      > having deficiencies
      > as a God/Master but
      > for his continued deceit.
      >
      > Consequently, he'll boost
      > his ego and self-important
      > image and, thus, feel
      > good hand important
      > that he's providing a
      > "spiritual" service for
      > the New Age segment
      > of the population who
      > are attracted to Eckankar's
      > (Twitchell's) Western
      > twist and edit of Radhasoami
      > and Ruhani Satsang.
      >
      > But, it (religion) is all
      > the same... just different
      > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
      > Eckankar is no exception!
      >
      > HK has millions squirreled
      > away in an off-shore
      > account so money and
      > financial security is not
      > a problem for him. Time
      > is Klemp's big enemy
      > and fear. That's why he
      > wants to be remembered
      > as being a great spiritual
      > master even though his
      > followers are deluded.
      >
      > Don't Eckists "worship"
      > Klemp, their Mahanta?
      > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
      > to trick them! But, he
      > sees it as being for their
      > own good... he's helping
      > them to find peace and
      > happiness without fear.
      > Eckists should believe
      > in themselves, as Soul,
      > and not give-up Soul's
      > authority to decide and
      > know. Initiations are
      > bogus anyway and are
      > simply used to dangle
      > in front of people....
      > that's the real "plus
      > element" in Eckankar.
      > There's Service, Coin,
      > Time, Promises of
      > Protection and Guidance
      > "plus" that next initiation!
      >
      > Look at the Spiritual
      > Exercises of EK that
      > are designed around
      > this purpose. Eckists
      > will dream of, contemplate
      > upon, and beseech
      > their God/Mahanta
      > for all sorts of things.
      >
      > These S.E.s are designed
      > for Eckists to see HK's
      > physical image don't
      > they? Thus, the Mahanta
      > brainwashing is reenforced
      > over and over on a daily
      > basis.
      >
      > And, this is why it's so
      > difficult to escape from
      > codependency. There
      > can never be real/truthful
      > "Spiritual Freedom" for
      > Eckists. They will always
      > need Klemp... he's their
      > crutch and their meth.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Janice and All, Thanks for sharing. I ll respond below. Janice wrote: I always did have a problem with the living eck master thing but I tried so hard to
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 4, 2012
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        Hello Janice and All,
        Thanks for sharing.
        I'll respond below.

        Janice wrote:

        I always did have a problem with the living eck master thing but I tried so hard to over come the resistance. I did for the most part I think because I did see Klemp in my dreams and in contemplations. In my dreams he was weird though like there was something wrong with him. I think it was my higher self showing me that he wasn't what he seemed to be.

        ME: I found it hard
        to drink the cool aid
        too, but eventually
        I did swallow it. It
        made running the
        local EK business
        center easier and
        helped to place me
        inside of the RESA's
        trusted circle. This,
        too, gave me contact
        and recognition with
        some of the higher
        ups at the ESC. You
        have to buy into the
        fantasy for it to work.

        Yes, Paul and Darwin
        were extroverts and
        had charisma, whereas,
        Klemp is introverted
        and has no charisma
        but makes up for this
        lack with his shyness
        and country bumpkin
        show of humility.

        Klemp was always more
        of an embarrassing little
        weasel than anything.


        When I would hear Klemp speak, I had to over come the impulse to think that he bordered on being slow witted. To me, he just didn't appear very intelligent and it was hard for me to understand why no one else seemed to see that. Over all, he was revered so much that anything he did was marvelous. My question today for myself and others is ; How do you make a God out of an uninspiring moron? Looking back, I don't know how I managed to fool myself so badly. I felt conflicted inside about it but on the outside, I tried so hard to believe he was worthy of all the adoration he was given. I would like to hear if others felt that way about the living eck master concept.


        ME: Yes, he's revered and
        worshiped. He can do no
        wrong and will accept no
        responsibility... he's God
        on earth! Even his stammering
        and long pauses while flipping
        through note cards will elevate
        his giddy followers to delusional
        states of nervous ecstasy.
        Or, it will put them in a trance
        and to sleep... especially at
        seminars after a long day of
        travel. But, no problem to
        fall asleep... you're getting
        it on the inner and you can
        buy the tape in three months
        anyway!

        During his talks, when awake,
        I would take notes of the
        highlights and the points
        he was making. Even in a
        brainwashed state I would
        have trouble with some of
        it, his assumptions and one
        dimensional perspectives,
        and later I would discuss it
        with my wife. Somehow we
        resolved the issues we had.

        A lot of rationalizing takes
        place. After all, HK's a 14th
        so how can "we" know what
        his intent is/was or how we
        were to fill-in the blanks.
        Maybe the "true" message
        came via the inner for Soul
        and the physical one, for
        the mind, was simply a
        means of priming the pump
        for it to be revealed in dreams
        on the higher inner planes!
        See! Eckists just imagine
        it to be whatever you need/
        want it to be.

        Shortly before I got out he started adapting Christian songs to Eckankar. One I remember is Amazing Grace. At that point, I knew he had to be lacking in something. To openly take Christian songs and try to use them for Eckankar was stupid to me since eckist were supposed to be the elite in spiritual development. To me it said that Klemp had no talent or inspiration to draw on. He, like Twitchell had to steal from everyone else.

        ME: Yes, there're more songs
        and an EK choir book is sold
        too! Klemp is trying to make
        Eckankar, and himself, blend
        in and seem legitimate with
        Sunday Worship Services, singing,
        choirs, clerics, and King James
        Bible scripture quotes. He wants
        to fit-in, so to speak, with all
        of the other church leaders
        in Chanhassen rather than be
        considered a cult leader. His
        cheap suits and mousey appearance
        are meant to disarm people.


        As far as how self delusional Klemp might be about his lies, I kind of feel like he has bought the idea himself that he is the living eck master. I think he believes it. He was in a mental institution at one point. I think it is probably something like how schizophrenics ofthen think they are Jesus.


        ME: I think that you are
        right. HK does believe it,
        but then, again, he doesn't.

        Klemp is a narcissist, ergo,
        he believes he's God's gift...
        as do all narcissists.

        True, he was in a mental
        institution for three weeks
        and "was released early"
        because he said he "learned
        how to play the game."

        That's how Klemp suckered
        Darwin... he was playing
        his game by flying under
        the radar, writing EK brochures
        and not telling Darwin the
        whole truth.

        I do find it interesting that
        Darwin was "hesitated" when
        Klemp wanted to meet to
        discuss the "transition" in
        an inner room at HK's office
        at the ESC, after, he had told
        DG that it was a Dark Room
        that had been Sound Proofed
        by the previous resident.

        Get it? No Light or Sound
        (ECK) could get in!

        For some reason this
        "coincidence" doesn't seem
        to bother Eckists in the same
        way it didn't bother Klemp.

        Isn't it true that Eckists
        believe there is No such
        things as Coincidence!

        Anyway, this info can be
        found in CH. 7 of HK's hard
        to find book "Soul Travelers
        of the Far Country." Klemp
        edited out most of this info
        when he recounted it in his
        "Autobiography of a Modern
        Prophet." But, he does mention
        that Darwin "hesitated" to
        meet with him in that room.
        Just connect the dots as to
        why Darwin hesitated. Funny,
        Darwin saw the connection
        but Klemp didn't!

        Yet, Klemp referred to Darwin
        as the Black Magician when
        it was him! Clever, but as an
        agent of Kal, i.e. Satan, we
        should expect as much.


        For the most part now , I feel ashamed of ever having been an eckist. I only feel comfortable talking about it with others who were eckist too.

        ME: It was somewhat embarrassing
        then, but it's equally embarrassing
        to admit it now. Actually, I won't
        discuss it with people... not that they'd
        ask. I don't go to church so there's
        nobody to ask such probing questions
        as, "What church did you belong to?"


        So thank all you guys for being out there.

        ME: Thanks for sharing.
        Please tell us more if you'd
        like. Got any juicy EK stories?

        prometheus wrote:

        It's interesting to see
        and hear what the religious
        tricksters and conmen
        come up with in order
        to rationalize their guilt
        away. They will claim to
        be providing a "service"
        for people... to comfort
        them and take away their
        fears.

        Klemp certainly gives Lip
        Service to this claim:

        How do the teachings
        of Eckankar help people?

        The most important
        concept we need to
        get across is the continuity
        of life and going from
        this world to the next
        and beyond. People worry
        most about meeting
        the end of this life. [end]

        Really? I disagree!

        Now, it could be that
        Klemp is concerned with
        death since he was born
        in 1942. He's getting closer
        and closer to the grave.

        And, I'm sure that many
        from the Baby Boomer
        generation (the generation
        Klemp dislikes most) are
        thinking more about their
        health and the end of life.

        But there are those living
        in politically unstable countries
        who have more immediate
        fears concerning day-to-
        day life and freedoms.

        What many people
        are concerned about,
        here and now, in this
        present time versus the
        future is having enough
        money to pay the bills in
        order to continue and
        maintain a healthy life
        style. And, not being
        alone and, thus, dying
        alone is an important
        issue too.

        Let's face it. People
        need God more than
        God needs them, unless,
        you're Klemp... a false
        God called Mahanta!

        Klemp needs his flock
        of suckers. Even if HK
        stepped aside for the
        next conman to take
        over he'd still be writing
        his trashy books and
        be posing as a God of
        some sorts. Maybe he'd
        move to some private
        island and start rumors
        that he had been reborn
        as Rebazar had. Klemp
        wants to continue the
        myth to be remembered!

        Young people certainly
        aren't concerned about
        death... they're concerned
        about finding a spouse,
        and having a good job,
        a place to live, and money
        for more education and
        a car, and gas.... maybe
        a new computer or i-phone/
        droid.

        In truth, HK is trying
        to purge himself of
        his Guilt for not only
        having deficiencies
        as a God/Master but
        for his continued deceit.

        Consequently, he'll boost
        his ego and self-important
        image and, thus, feel
        good hand important
        that he's providing a
        "spiritual" service for
        the New Age segment
        of the population who
        are attracted to Eckankar's
        (Twitchell's) Western
        twist and edit of Radhasoami
        and Ruhani Satsang.

        But, it (religion) is all
        the same... just different
        dogma and jargon. Klemp's
        Eckankar is no exception!

        HK has millions squirreled
        away in an off-shore
        account so money and
        financial security is not
        a problem for him. Time
        is Klemp's big enemy
        and fear. That's why he
        wants to be remembered
        as being a great spiritual
        master even though his
        followers are deluded.

        Don't Eckists "worship"
        Klemp, their Mahanta?
        Sure! That's Klemp's plan
        to trick them! But, he
        sees it as being for their
        own good... he's helping
        them to find peace and
        happiness without fear.
        Eckists should believe
        in themselves, as Soul,
        and not give-up Soul's
        authority to decide and
        know. Initiations are
        bogus anyway and are
        simply used to dangle
        in front of people....
        that's the real "plus
        element" in Eckankar.
        There's Service, Coin,
        Time, Promises of
        Protection and Guidance
        "plus" that next initiation!

        Look at the Spiritual
        Exercises of EK that
        are designed around
        this purpose. Eckists
        will dream of, contemplate
        upon, and beseech
        their God/Mahanta
        for all sorts of things.

        These S.E.s are designed
        for Eckists to see HK's
        physical image don't
        they? Thus, the Mahanta
        brainwashing is reenforced
        over and over on a daily
        basis.

        And, this is why it's so
        difficult to escape from
        codependency. There
        can never be real/truthful
        "Spiritual Freedom" for
        Eckists. They will always
        need Klemp... he's their
        crutch and their meth.

        Prometheus
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Apollonius and All, I m not wrong. One cannot find enlightenment via the the false teachings of Eckankar. It s called delusional, wishful, and magical
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 4, 2012
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          Hello Apollonius and All,
          I'm not wrong. One cannot
          find enlightenment via the
          the false teachings of Eckankar.
          It's called delusional, wishful,
          and magical thinking.

          However, it's possible that
          one might find enlightenment
          despite Eckankar and by seeing
          the truth about Eckankar and
          that of all religions and group
          manmade dogmas. Man created
          God in man's image and man
          created religion as well. Women
          created mankind, but men still
          won't give them credit! LOL!

          As for the Blue Light thingie.
          That's something that many
          people will see irregardless of
          Eckankar. It's been proven and
          written about and that's how
          PT found it. He stole everything
          and probably never had an
          original thought worth anything.

          Remember, the liar Twitchell
          didn't create the Mahanta or
          the Blue Light of the Mahanta
          until Jan. 1969. This has been
          proven via past Wisdom Notes.

          Yes, I too knew Helen and
          Millie (Workman) Moore.
          Did you, too, go to HK's
          Satsang class with Helen
          across the desert of LV?

          Just because you had a
          personal spiritual experience
          and connect that to some
          of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
          same charismatic conman,
          doesn't mean you should
          give Klemp a free pass. He's
          done much more harm than
          good by making Eckists
          codependent upon him.

          The lies do matter!

          If you haven't figured that out
          you're as deluded as the rest.

          That one experience you had,
          long ago, was probably "caused"
          by your belief in Eckankar and
          influenced by other people and
          the nature of the situation. All
          of you were looking/seeking for
          something, a sign, and a feeling
          and it's what you and your mental
          impressions created/deciphered
          and found.

          I'm not saying that we don't
          or can't have real spiritual
          experiences. But, when we
          do it certainly isn't because
          of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
          belief and person are not
          spiritual conduits! Just the
          opposite! Belief in Eckankar
          and in "the Mahanta" will
          only produce deluding Astral
          experiences which appear
          greater and "spiritual" in
          the mind's eye!

          I, too, have experienced
          sounds like running water,
          thunder, buzzing bees,
          violins and flutes with
          blue, yellow, golden and
          bright white lights and
          more! So what! That's
          merely the phenomenal
          world! Much was experienced
          prior to, some during,
          and even greater things
          after Eckankar!

          If you believe in the KAL,
          then, deceivers and liars
          who misrepresent truth
          are of the KAL.

          Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
          and Klemp with their distortions
          and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
          and Ruhani Satsang would be of
          the KAL because they have taken
          upon themselves to use the trickster
          trappings and characteristics of KAL.

          But, all religions are of the KAL
          or Satan. These religions that
          Twitchell stole dogma from are
          just as deceitful and off the mark
          spiritually.

          What Eckankar is selling and
          what you are receiving is not
          Truth! If you don't understand
          the ramifications of this, then,
          you are as deluded and lost as
          they are. Enjoy your peyote!


          Prometheus
          BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
          This was who he prayed to and
          wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
          have been all that enlightened. Mo
          wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
          Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
          "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
          physical plane is of the "ECK" too
          correct?




          apollonius wrote:
          Greetings Prometheus and all,

          I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
          disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
          Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
          However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
          Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
          realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
          part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
          by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
          flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
          magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

          The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
          professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
          thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
          know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
          me comfort.

          Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
          making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
          have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
          Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
          this day.

          Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
          own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
          do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
          with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
          recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
          advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
          allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

          Keep up the good work,

          From the Heart,

          Apollonius




          >
          > It's interesting to see
          > and hear what the religious
          > tricksters and conmen
          > come up with in order
          > to rationalize their guilt
          > away. They will claim to
          > be providing a "service"
          > for people... to comfort
          > them and take away their
          > fears.
          >
          >
          > Klemp certainly gives Lip
          > Service to this claim:
          >
          > How do the teachings
          > of Eckankar help people?
          >
          > The most important
          > concept we need to
          > get across is the continuity
          > of life and going from
          > this world to the next
          > and beyond. People worry
          > most about meeting
          > the end of this life. [end]
          >
          >
          > Really? I disagree!
          >
          > Now, it could be that
          > Klemp is concerned with
          > death since he was born
          > in 1942. He's getting closer
          > and closer to the grave.
          >
          > And, I'm sure that many
          > from the Baby Boomer
          > generation (the generation
          > Klemp dislikes most) are
          > thinking more about their
          > health and the end of life.
          >
          > But there are those living
          > in politically unstable countries
          > who have more immediate
          > fears concerning day-to-
          > day life and freedoms.
          >
          > What many people
          > are concerned about,
          > here and now, in this
          > present time versus the
          > future is having enough
          > money to pay the bills in
          > order to continue and
          > maintain a healthy life
          > style. And, not being
          > alone and, thus, dying
          > alone is an important
          > issue too.
          >
          > Let's face it. People
          > need God more than
          > God needs them, unless,
          > you're Klemp... a false
          > God called Mahanta!
          >
          > Klemp needs his flock
          > of suckers. Even if HK
          > stepped aside for the
          > next conman to take
          > over he'd still be writing
          > his trashy books and
          > be posing as a God of
          > some sorts. Maybe he'd
          > move to some private
          > island and start rumors
          > that he had been reborn
          > as Rebazar had. Klemp
          > wants to continue the
          > myth to be remembered!
          >
          > Young people certainly
          > aren't concerned about
          > death... they're concerned
          > about finding a spouse,
          > and having a good job,
          > a place to live, and money
          > for more education and
          > a car, and gas.... maybe
          > a new computer or i-phone/
          > droid.
          >
          > In truth, HK is trying
          > to purge himself of
          > his Guilt for not only
          > having deficiencies
          > as a God/Master but
          > for his continued deceit.
          >
          > Consequently, he'll boost
          > his ego and self-important
          > image and, thus, feel
          > good hand important
          > that he's providing a
          > "spiritual" service for
          > the New Age segment
          > of the population who
          > are attracted to Eckankar's
          > (Twitchell's) Western
          > twist and edit of Radhasoami
          > and Ruhani Satsang.
          >
          > But, it (religion) is all
          > the same... just different
          > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
          > Eckankar is no exception!
          >
          > HK has millions squirreled
          > away in an off-shore
          > account so money and
          > financial security is not
          > a problem for him. Time
          > is Klemp's big enemy
          > and fear. That's why he
          > wants to be remembered
          > as being a great spiritual
          > master even though his
          > followers are deluded.
          >
          > Don't Eckists "worship"
          > Klemp, their Mahanta?
          > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
          > to trick them! But, he
          > sees it as being for their
          > own good... he's helping
          > them to find peace and
          > happiness without fear.
          > Eckists should believe
          > in themselves, as Soul,
          > and not give-up Soul's
          > authority to decide and
          > know. Initiations are
          > bogus anyway and are
          > simply used to dangle
          > in front of people....
          > that's the real "plus
          > element" in Eckankar.
          > There's Service, Coin,
          > Time, Promises of
          > Protection and Guidance
          > "plus" that next initiation!
          >
          > Look at the Spiritual
          > Exercises of EK that
          > are designed around
          > this purpose. Eckists
          > will dream of, contemplate
          > upon, and beseech
          > their God/Mahanta
          > for all sorts of things.
          >
          > These S.E.s are designed
          > for Eckists to see HK's
          > physical image don't
          > they? Thus, the Mahanta
          > brainwashing is reenforced
          > over and over on a daily
          > basis.
          >
          > And, this is why it's so
          > difficult to escape from
          > codependency. There
          > can never be real/truthful
          > "Spiritual Freedom" for
          > Eckists. They will always
          > need Klemp... he's their
          > crutch and their meth.
          >
          > Prometheus
        • Janice Pfeiffer
          Prometheus is right.  You see what you expect to see cuz you are programmed to associate all your experiences to eckankar.  About the blue light thing. 
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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            Prometheus is right.  You see what you expect to see cuz you are programmed to associate all your experiences to eckankar.  About the blue light thing.  Maybe they used some hidden blue lights to create the aura of blue.  I wouldn't put it past them.  They are such fakers.  Spiritual freedom in eckankar?  How can it be when from day one you are taught that you have a master.  I have never been more free than since I got out of eckankar.

            --- On Sat, 2/4/12, apollonius2k <apollonius2k@...> wrote:

            From: apollonius2k <apollonius2k@...>
            Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud
            To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, February 4, 2012, 7:42 AM

             
            Greetings Prometheus and all,

            I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD. However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

            The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave me comfort.
            Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to this day.

            Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

            Keep up the good work,

            From the Heart,

            Apollonius

            >
            > It's interesting to see
            > and hear what the religious
            > tricksters and conmen
            > come up with in order
            > to rationalize their guilt
            > away. They will claim to
            > be providing a "service"
            > for people... to comfort
            > them and take away their
            > fears.
            >
            >
            > Klemp certainly gives Lip
            > Service to this claim:
            >
            > How do the teachings
            > of Eckankar help people?
            >
            > The most important
            > concept we need to
            > get across is the continuity
            > of life and going from
            > this world to the next
            > and beyond. People worry
            > most about meeting
            > the end of this life. [end]
            >
            >
            > Really? I disagree!
            >
            > Now, it could be that
            > Klemp is concerned with
            > death since he was born
            > in 1942. He's getting closer
            > and closer to the grave.
            >
            > And, I'm sure that many
            > from the Baby Boomer
            > generation (the generation
            > Klemp dislikes most) are
            > thinking more about their
            > health and the end of life.
            >
            > But there are those living
            > in politically unstable countries
            > who have more immediate
            > fears concerning day-to-
            > day life and freedoms.
            >
            > What many people
            > are concerned about,
            > here and now, in this
            > present time versus the
            > future is having enough
            > money to pay the bills in
            > order to continue and
            > maintain a healthy life
            > style. And, not being
            > alone and, thus, dying
            > alone is an important
            > issue too.
            >
            > Let's face it. People
            > need God more than
            > God needs them, unless,
            > you're Klemp... a false
            > God called Mahanta!
            >
            > Klemp needs his flock
            > of suckers. Even if HK
            > stepped aside for the
            > next conman to take
            > over he'd still be writing
            > his trashy books and
            > be posing as a God of
            > some sorts. Maybe he'd
            > move to some private
            > island and start rumors
            > that he had been reborn
            > as Rebazar had. Klemp
            > wants to continue the
            > myth to be remembered!
            >
            > Young people certainly
            > aren't concerned about
            > death... they're concerned
            > about finding a spouse,
            > and having a good job,
            > a place to live, and money
            > for more education and
            > a car, and gas.... maybe
            > a new computer or i-phone/
            > droid.
            >
            > In truth, HK is trying
            > to purge himself of
            > his Guilt for not only
            > having deficiencies
            > as a God/Master but
            > for his continued deceit.
            >
            > Consequently, he'll boost
            > his ego and self-important
            > image and, thus, feel
            > good hand important
            > that he's providing a
            > "spiritual" service for
            > the New Age segment
            > of the population who
            > are attracted to Eckankar's
            > (Twitchell's) Western
            > twist and edit of Radhasoami
            > and Ruhani Satsang.
            >
            > But, it (religion) is all
            > the same... just different
            > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
            > Eckankar is no exception!
            >
            > HK has millions squirreled
            > away in an off-shore
            > account so money and
            > financial security is not
            > a problem for him. Time
            > is Klemp's big enemy
            > and fear. That's why he
            > wants to be remembered
            > as being a great spiritual
            > master even though his
            > followers are deluded.
            >
            > Don't Eckists "worship"
            > Klemp, their Mahanta?
            > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
            > to trick them! But, he
            > sees it as being for their
            > own good... he's helping
            > them to find peace and
            > happiness without fear.
            > Eckists should believe
            > in themselves, as Soul,
            > and not give-up Soul's
            > authority to decide and
            > know. Initiations are
            > bogus anyway and are
            > simply used to dangle
            > in front of people....
            > that's the real "plus
            > element" in Eckankar.
            > There's Service, Coin,
            > Time, Promises of
            > Protection and Guidance
            > "plus" that next initiation!
            >
            > Look at the Spiritual
            > Exercises of EK that
            > are designed around
            > this purpose. Eckists
            > will dream of, contemplate
            > upon, and beseech
            > their God/Mahanta
            > for all sorts of things.
            >
            > These S.E.s are designed
            > for Eckists to see HK's
            > physical image don't
            > they? Thus, the Mahanta
            > brainwashing is reenforced
            > over and over on a daily
            > basis.
            >
            > And, this is why it's so
            > difficult to escape from
            > codependency. There
            > can never be real/truthful
            > "Spiritual Freedom" for
            > Eckists. They will always
            > need Klemp... he's their
            > crutch and their meth.
            >
            > Prometheus
            >

          • prometheus_973
            Hello Again Apollonius, I reread my comments to you and feel that I should apologize for some of what I said. My opinions of Eckankar and of the harm caused by
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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              Hello Again Apollonius,
              I reread my comments
              to you and feel that I
              should apologize for
              some of what I said.

              My opinions of Eckankar
              and of the harm caused
              by Twitchell's and Klemp's
              fraud still stands.

              Yes, we all need to cut the
              ties to any and all religions.
              Religions are distortions
              of Truth that are designed
              around mass consumption.

              A group consciousness,
              and even that within a
              "circle of initiation," will
              always be lower or stunted
              than what the individual
              can/will achieve when free
              and unimpeded. Of course,
              all initiations, of any sort,
              are fraudulent!

              Consciousness is not handed
              out by a demigod and printed
              on an EK membership card.

              Prometheus



              prometheus_wrote:
              >
              > Hello Apollonius and All,
              > I'm not wrong. One cannot
              > find enlightenment via the
              > the false teachings of Eckankar.
              > It's called delusional, wishful,
              > and magical thinking.
              >
              > However, it's possible that
              > one might find enlightenment
              > despite Eckankar and by seeing
              > the truth about Eckankar and
              > that of all religions and group
              > manmade dogmas. Man created
              > God in man's image and man
              > created religion as well. Women
              > created mankind, but men still
              > won't give them credit! LOL!
              >
              > As for the Blue Light thingie.
              > That's something that many
              > people will see irregardless of
              > Eckankar. It's been proven and
              > written about and that's how
              > PT found it. He stole everything
              > and probably never had an
              > original thought worth anything.
              >
              > Remember, the liar Twitchell
              > didn't create the Mahanta or
              > the Blue Light of the Mahanta
              > until Jan. 1969. This has been
              > proven via past Wisdom Notes.
              >
              > Yes, I too knew Helen and
              > Millie (Workman) Moore.
              > Did you, too, go to HK's
              > Satsang class with Helen
              > across the desert of LV?
              >
              > Just because you had a
              > personal spiritual experience
              > and connect that to some
              > of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
              > same charismatic conman,
              > doesn't mean you should
              > give Klemp a free pass. He's
              > done much more harm than
              > good by making Eckists
              > codependent upon him.
              >
              > The lies do matter!
              >
              > If you haven't figured that out
              > you're as deluded as the rest.
              >
              > That one experience you had,
              > long ago, was probably "caused"
              > by your belief in Eckankar and
              > influenced by other people and
              > the nature of the situation. All
              > of you were looking/seeking for
              > something, a sign, and a feeling
              > and it's what you and your mental
              > impressions created/deciphered
              > and found.
              >
              > I'm not saying that we don't
              > or can't have real spiritual
              > experiences. But, when we
              > do it certainly isn't because
              > of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
              > belief and person are not
              > spiritual conduits! Just the
              > opposite! Belief in Eckankar
              > and in "the Mahanta" will
              > only produce deluding Astral
              > experiences which appear
              > greater and "spiritual" in
              > the mind's eye!
              >
              > I, too, have experienced
              > sounds like running water,
              > thunder, buzzing bees,
              > violins and flutes with
              > blue, yellow, golden and
              > bright white lights and
              > more! So what! That's
              > merely the phenomenal
              > world! Much was experienced
              > prior to, some during,
              > and even greater things
              > after Eckankar!
              >
              > If you believe in the KAL,
              > then, deceivers and liars
              > who misrepresent truth
              > are of the KAL.
              >
              > Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
              > and Klemp with their distortions
              > and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
              > and Ruhani Satsang would be of
              > the KAL because they have taken
              > upon themselves to use the trickster
              > trappings and characteristics of KAL.
              >
              > But, all religions are of the KAL
              > or Satan. These religions that
              > Twitchell stole dogma from are
              > just as deceitful and off the mark
              > spiritually.
              >
              > What Eckankar is selling and
              > what you are receiving is not
              > Truth! If you don't understand
              > the ramifications of this, then,
              > you are as deluded and lost as
              > they are. Enjoy your peyote!
              >
              >
              > Prometheus
              > BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
              > This was who he prayed to and
              > wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
              > have been all that enlightened. Mo
              > wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
              > Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
              > "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
              > physical plane is of the "ECK" too
              > correct?
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > apollonius wrote:
              > Greetings Prometheus and all,
              >
              > I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
              > disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
              > Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
              > However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
              > Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
              > realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
              > part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
              > by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
              > flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
              > magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.
              >
              > The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
              > professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
              > thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
              > know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
              > me comfort.
              >
              > Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
              > making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
              > have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
              > Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
              > this day.
              >
              > Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
              > own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
              > do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
              > with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
              > recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
              > advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
              > allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.
              >
              > Keep up the good work,
              >
              > From the Heart,
              >
              > Apollonius
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > >
              > > It's interesting to see
              > > and hear what the religious
              > > tricksters and conmen
              > > come up with in order
              > > to rationalize their guilt
              > > away. They will claim to
              > > be providing a "service"
              > > for people... to comfort
              > > them and take away their
              > > fears.
              > >
              > >
              > > Klemp certainly gives Lip
              > > Service to this claim:
              > >
              > > How do the teachings
              > > of Eckankar help people?
              > >
              > > The most important
              > > concept we need to
              > > get across is the continuity
              > > of life and going from
              > > this world to the next
              > > and beyond. People worry
              > > most about meeting
              > > the end of this life. [end]
              > >
              > >
              > > Really? I disagree!
              > >
              > > Now, it could be that
              > > Klemp is concerned with
              > > death since he was born
              > > in 1942. He's getting closer
              > > and closer to the grave.
              > >
              > > And, I'm sure that many
              > > from the Baby Boomer
              > > generation (the generation
              > > Klemp dislikes most) are
              > > thinking more about their
              > > health and the end of life.
              > >
              > > But there are those living
              > > in politically unstable countries
              > > who have more immediate
              > > fears concerning day-to-
              > > day life and freedoms.
              > >
              > > What many people
              > > are concerned about,
              > > here and now, in this
              > > present time versus the
              > > future is having enough
              > > money to pay the bills in
              > > order to continue and
              > > maintain a healthy life
              > > style. And, not being
              > > alone and, thus, dying
              > > alone is an important
              > > issue too.
              > >
              > > Let's face it. People
              > > need God more than
              > > God needs them, unless,
              > > you're Klemp... a false
              > > God called Mahanta!
              > >
              > > Klemp needs his flock
              > > of suckers. Even if HK
              > > stepped aside for the
              > > next conman to take
              > > over he'd still be writing
              > > his trashy books and
              > > be posing as a God of
              > > some sorts. Maybe he'd
              > > move to some private
              > > island and start rumors
              > > that he had been reborn
              > > as Rebazar had. Klemp
              > > wants to continue the
              > > myth to be remembered!
              > >
              > > Young people certainly
              > > aren't concerned about
              > > death... they're concerned
              > > about finding a spouse,
              > > and having a good job,
              > > a place to live, and money
              > > for more education and
              > > a car, and gas.... maybe
              > > a new computer or i-phone/
              > > droid.
              > >
              > > In truth, HK is trying
              > > to purge himself of
              > > his Guilt for not only
              > > having deficiencies
              > > as a God/Master but
              > > for his continued deceit.
              > >
              > > Consequently, he'll boost
              > > his ego and self-important
              > > image and, thus, feel
              > > good hand important
              > > that he's providing a
              > > "spiritual" service for
              > > the New Age segment
              > > of the population who
              > > are attracted to Eckankar's
              > > (Twitchell's) Western
              > > twist and edit of Radhasoami
              > > and Ruhani Satsang.
              > >
              > > But, it (religion) is all
              > > the same... just different
              > > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
              > > Eckankar is no exception!
              > >
              > > HK has millions squirreled
              > > away in an off-shore
              > > account so money and
              > > financial security is not
              > > a problem for him. Time
              > > is Klemp's big enemy
              > > and fear. That's why he
              > > wants to be remembered
              > > as being a great spiritual
              > > master even though his
              > > followers are deluded.
              > >
              > > Don't Eckists "worship"
              > > Klemp, their Mahanta?
              > > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
              > > to trick them! But, he
              > > sees it as being for their
              > > own good... he's helping
              > > them to find peace and
              > > happiness without fear.
              > > Eckists should believe
              > > in themselves, as Soul,
              > > and not give-up Soul's
              > > authority to decide and
              > > know. Initiations are
              > > bogus anyway and are
              > > simply used to dangle
              > > in front of people....
              > > that's the real "plus
              > > element" in Eckankar.
              > > There's Service, Coin,
              > > Time, Promises of
              > > Protection and Guidance
              > > "plus" that next initiation!
              > >
              > > Look at the Spiritual
              > > Exercises of EK that
              > > are designed around
              > > this purpose. Eckists
              > > will dream of, contemplate
              > > upon, and beseech
              > > their God/Mahanta
              > > for all sorts of things.
              > >
              > > These S.E.s are designed
              > > for Eckists to see HK's
              > > physical image don't
              > > they? Thus, the Mahanta
              > > brainwashing is reenforced
              > > over and over on a daily
              > > basis.
              > >
              > > And, this is why it's so
              > > difficult to escape from
              > > codependency. There
              > > can never be real/truthful
              > > "Spiritual Freedom" for
              > > Eckists. They will always
              > > need Klemp... he's their
              > > crutch and their meth.
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              >
            • apollonius2k
              Hi Prometheus, Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for being led astray by Eckankar. If you listen to the reasoning of today s Hi s
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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                Hi Prometheus,

                Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for being led astray by Eckankar. If you listen to the reasoning of today's Hi's (well, the older ones anyway) as to why they still follow Eckankar, this rhetorical question will many times be heard as the answer, "Why throw the baby (Eckankar) out with the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)? I have never let HK "off the hook". He has had 30 years to set the record straight regarding Paul's made up hierarchy and writings, and is yet to do it. Also, It appears that he is bereft of spiritual experiences to write about as multiple times I caught him using my experiences and others in his HI teaching lessons.

                In the early days we read and were told that the books and myth Paul Twitchell built was absolute truth. For me, there had been many prior years of extra-physical experiences including the blue and other lights dating back to when I was three years old. I really didn't care about the myth or the LEM so much as the wealth of research contained therein. How the concepts bounced around inside my little sphere of consciousness and took me to a different place. These ideas could be tried and discarded or kept as "My" individual truths.

                As I rose through the ranks of Eckankar there was a peculiar thing that I noticed. The Mahdi were not practicing what they preached and it seemed like I was always in their cross hairs. This special attention and the energy they spewed uncontrolled, allowed me to become much stronger. There were many arguments that ensued all along the way, even with Darwin. My point was always that it is the individual path that counts, not the group or worship of a leader. If the LEM didn't know about me personally (which I discovered to be true the first time I met Darwin) then I was on my own.

                Prometheus said,
                >Yes, we all need to cut the
                > ties to any and all religions.
                > Religions are distortions
                > of Truth that are designed
                > around mass consumption.
                >
                > A group consciousness,
                > and even that within a
                > "circle of initiation," will
                > always be lower or stunted
                > than what the individual
                > can/will achieve when free
                > and unimpeded. Of course,
                > all initiations, of any sort,
                > are fraudulent!
                >
                > Consciousness is not handed
                > out by a demigod and printed
                > on an EK membership card.

                Agreed

                To my knowledge, Rumi couched his verbiage in the terms of the day. According to what I have researched, Rumi's teacher Shamsi was murdered for blasphemy against Islam.

                Though I can honestly say I never met any of Paul Twitchell's masters (and I doubt he did either) there have been times in my life when a "helper" appeared out of nowhere and guided me in a new direction with new ideas to think about. Whether I call them masters or any other term is irrelevant to me, they assisted my path and that's all that was needed.


                Cheers,

                Apollonius

                ---
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Apollonius and All, I ll respond to your comments below. apollonius wrote: Hi Prometheus, Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 6, 2012
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                  Hello Apollonius and All,
                  I'll respond to your
                  comments below.

                  apollonius wrote:
                  Hi Prometheus,

                  Many, and rightfully so,
                  have strong feelings of
                  resentment for being led
                  astray by Eckankar.

                  If you listen to the reasoning
                  of today's Hi's (well, the
                  older ones anyway) as to
                  why they still follow Eckankar,
                  this rhetorical question
                  will many times be heard
                  as the answer, "Why throw
                  the baby (Eckankar) out with
                  the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)?

                  I have never let HK "off the
                  hook". He has had 30 years
                  to set the record straight
                  regarding Paul's made up
                  hierarchy and writings, and
                  is yet to do it. Also, It appears
                  that he is bereft of spiritual
                  experiences to write about
                  as multiple times I caught
                  him using my experiences
                  and others in his HI teaching
                  lessons.



                  *****************************
                  ME: The truth as to why longtime
                  H.I.s have remained in Eckankar
                  has nothing to do with Truth. It's
                  all about fear and ego! They fear
                  not having their EK friends and
                  family members in their lives but,
                  also, not having their admirers.
                  Plus, look at all of that time and
                  money they have invested and
                  the initiations they've received.
                  Many were "grandfathered" in
                  without having to jump through
                  the hoops that HK requires today.
                  Besides, there's always the hope
                  of getting that 8th or 9th Outer
                  initiation. This is why the "baby"
                  isn't thrown out with the dirty
                  bath water... and why the bath
                  water is used over and over,
                  again and again.
                  ******************************


                  In the early days we read and
                  were told that the books and
                  myth Paul Twitchell built was
                  absolute truth. For me, there
                  had been many prior years of
                  extra-physical experiences
                  including the blue and other
                  lights dating back to when I
                  was three years old. I really
                  didn't care about the myth or
                  the LEM so much as the wealth
                  of research contained therein.
                  How the concepts bounced
                  around inside my little sphere
                  of consciousness and took me
                  to a different place. These ideas
                  could be tried and discarded
                  or kept as "My" individual
                  truths.



                  ****************************
                  ME: Twitchell, as a conman,
                  learned that many people
                  have many things in common.
                  Everyone dreams. And if one
                  places attention upon the
                  mysteries and myth of the
                  spiritual realm they will dream
                  and "see" things. I'm not
                  saying that your experiences,
                  especially, as a child weren't
                  real, but I also know that
                  parents and adults can
                  mess with what a child thinks
                  is real. Sometimes it's done
                  out of "fun" by a somewhat
                  deviant parent or relative.
                  Sometimes, the fun is more
                  of a cultural/religious thing
                  like with Santa Claus or the
                  Easter Bunny.
                  *****************************


                  As I rose through the
                  ranks of Eckankar there
                  was a peculiar thing that
                  I noticed. The Mahdi were
                  not practicing what they
                  preached and it seemed
                  like I was always in their
                  cross hairs. This special
                  attention and the energy
                  they spewed uncontrolled,
                  allowed me to become
                  much stronger. There
                  were many arguments
                  that ensued all along the
                  way, even with Darwin.
                  My point was always
                  that it is the individual
                  path that counts, not the
                  group or worship of a
                  leader. If the LEM didn't
                  know about me personally
                  (which I discovered to be
                  true the first time I met
                  Darwin) then I was on my
                  own.


                  ***************************
                  ME: Yes, there's a lot of
                  ego associated with being
                  an H.I. (leader). Ego was
                  always rationalized away
                  and looked upon as a
                  "teaching tool" or as a "coat"
                  that could be put on and
                  taken off. It wasn't true
                  but it did help to explain
                  away the personality changes.
                  I know that when I was at
                  ECK events, in leadership
                  roles, I almost always came
                  across as being serious.
                  I knew that I was being
                  watched and evaluated
                  and had to be careful to
                  portray myself well. I, also,
                  had to be cognizant of the
                  proper procedures to follow
                  which are spelled out in
                  the "Guidelines." All of
                  this was quite stressful.
                  Why? Because I saw first
                  hand what could happen
                  to those who fell out-of-
                  grace with the RESA.

                  Yes, Klemp wouldn't know
                  anything about his H.I.s,
                  either, if it wasn't for the
                  reports his RESAs send to
                  the ESC. Everyone has a
                  file and black marks and
                  red flags can have initiations
                  and positions put on a
                  three-five year (or longer)
                  hold. Sometimes there are
                  things put into your ESC
                  file and sometimes it's
                  just that one RESA.
                  ******************************
                  MORE COMMENTS BELOW
                  ******************************

                  Prometheus said,
                  >Yes, we all need to cut the
                  > ties to any and all religions.
                  > Religions are distortions
                  > of Truth that are designed
                  > around mass consumption.
                  >
                  > A group consciousness,
                  > and even that within a
                  > "circle of initiation," will
                  > always be lower or stunted
                  > than what the individual
                  > can/will achieve when free
                  > and unimpeded. Of course,
                  > all initiations, of any sort,
                  > are fraudulent!
                  >
                  > Consciousness is not handed
                  > out by a demigod and printed
                  > on an EK membership card.

                  Agreed

                  To my knowledge, Rumi
                  couched his verbiage
                  in the terms of the day.
                  According to what I have
                  researched, Rumi's teacher
                  Shamsi was murdered
                  for blasphemy against
                  Islam.


                  ****************************
                  ME: It's usually thought that
                  Rumi's companions killed Shams
                  because they were jealous of
                  him. After all, much of Rumi's
                  poetry was inspired by the love
                  he had for his friend and master.....
                  Shams.

                  However, Shams was Sunni.
                  So, it could be that he was
                  murdered by the more orthodox
                  Shiites. IMO-Only a Shiite would
                  say that Shams (a Sunni) was
                  blasphemous.
                  ********************************

                  Though I can honestly say
                  I never met any of Paul
                  Twitchell's masters (and
                  I doubt he did either) there
                  have been times in my
                  life when a "helper" appeared
                  out of nowhere and guided
                  me in a new direction with
                  new ideas to think about.
                  Whether I call them masters
                  or any other term is irrelevant
                  to me, they assisted my path
                  and that's all that was needed.

                  ******************************
                  ME: I, too, have had experiences
                  throughout life where it seemed
                  I was being protected (mostly from
                  myself) or was receiving guidance.
                  Early on, Jesus would appear to
                  me. I was a seeker and always
                  seemed to be beseeching some
                  spiritual authority for answers/
                  guidance. But most people do
                  the same! That's how/why the
                  gods were created and, one reason,
                  as to why religion was created.
                  The other reasons for religions
                  is to control the masses by
                  alleviating their fears and giving
                  hope of a better, pain free, afterlife.
                  Plus, it's a money maker for those
                  at the top of the hierarchy.


                  Anyway, it was no surprise to
                  see "EK Masters" in my dreams.
                  It's funny that Eckankar validates
                  itself with a handful of testimonials
                  from people (innocent newbies)
                  who claim they met a certain EK
                  Master "prior" to joining Eckankar!
                  It's kind of like (not really) St. Paul's
                  experience with seeing Jesus while
                  on the road to Damascus. Except
                  Paul/Saul was blinded for three
                  days. Hey, is that, and the Trinity,
                  how Paul came up with/invented
                  the, superstitious, EK Principle
                  of the Threes?
                  *********************************


                  Cheers,

                  Apollonius
                • Russ Rodnick
                  I won t disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.   experiences
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 7, 2012
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                    I won't disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.
                     
                    experiences further are phenomenal. I do not recommend believing that these are signs of knowing what truth is. they point the way in my opinion to something which is deeper, and more complete.
                     
                    But too the veracity of one's teachers cannot be questioned. and if these teachers are merely unconscous transmitters of ideas that they do not really understand themselves and not understanding misuse these ideas to gratify their own egos howver sweet these egotistical liars are you as the sincere student would probably be able to use these methods and ascertain some truths but how deeply and completely and why would you want to stay in Eckankar after looking behind the curtain?
                    I worry that phenomena can give a false security and Eckankar gives plenty of false security.
                     
                    I used to think compromising thoughts too, and for some it might prove to be a good. but it is a trap too. That's the thing I would be caution about.
                     
                    The search for meaning and truth is all important to me. Deeper realization of being is possible with an independant attitude. Study of the self, being and personality.
                     
                    Anyway, truth is not easy though sometimes it seems so, in my experience.
                    From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                    To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 11:35 PM
                    Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

                     
                    Hello Apollonius and All,
                    I'm not wrong. One cannot
                    find enlightenment via the
                    the false teachings of Eckankar.
                    It's called delusional, wishful,
                    and magical thinking.

                    However, it's possible that
                    one might find enlightenment
                    despite Eckankar and by seeing
                    the truth about Eckankar and
                    that of all religions and group
                    manmade dogmas. Man created
                    God in man's image and man
                    created religion as well. Women
                    created mankind, but men still
                    won't give them credit! LOL!

                    As for the Blue Light thingie.
                    That's something that many
                    people will see irregardless of
                    Eckankar. It's been proven and
                    written about and that's how
                    PT found it. He stole everything
                    and probably never had an
                    original thought worth anything.

                    Remember, the liar Twitchell
                    didn't create the Mahanta or
                    the Blue Light of the Mahanta
                    until Jan. 1969. This has been
                    proven via past Wisdom Notes.

                    Yes, I too knew Helen and
                    Millie (Workman) Moore.
                    Did you, too, go to HK's
                    Satsang class with Helen
                    across the desert of LV?

                    Just because you had a
                    personal spiritual experience
                    and connect that to some
                    of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
                    same charismatic conman,
                    doesn't mean you should
                    give Klemp a free pass. He's
                    done much more harm than
                    good by making Eckists
                    codependent upon him.

                    The lies do matter!

                    If you haven't figured that out
                    you're as deluded as the rest.

                    That one experience you had,
                    long ago, was probably "caused"
                    by your belief in Eckankar and
                    influenced by other people and
                    the nature of the situation. All
                    of you were looking/seeking for
                    something, a sign, and a feeling
                    and it's what you and your mental
                    impressions created/deciphered
                    and found.

                    I'm not saying that we don't
                    or can't have real spiritual
                    experiences. But, when we
                    do it certainly isn't because
                    of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
                    belief and person are not
                    spiritual conduits! Just the
                    opposite! Belief in Eckankar
                    and in "the Mahanta" will
                    only produce deluding Astral
                    experiences which appear
                    greater and "spiritual" in
                    the mind's eye!

                    I, too, have experienced
                    sounds like running water,
                    thunder, buzzing bees,
                    violins and flutes with
                    blue, yellow, golden and
                    bright white lights and
                    more! So what! That's
                    merely the phenomenal
                    world! Much was experienced
                    prior to, some during,
                    and even greater things
                    after Eckankar!

                    If you believe in the KAL,
                    then, deceivers and liars
                    who misrepresent truth
                    are of the KAL.

                    Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
                    and Klemp with their distortions
                    and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
                    and Ruhani Satsang would be of
                    the KAL because they have taken
                    upon themselves to use the trickster
                    trappings and characteristics of KAL.

                    But, all religions are of the KAL
                    or Satan. These religions that
                    Twitchell stole dogma from are
                    just as deceitful and off the mark
                    spiritually.

                    What Eckankar is selling and
                    what you are receiving is not
                    Truth! If you don't understand
                    the ramifications of this, then,
                    you are as deluded and lost as
                    they are. Enjoy your peyote!

                    Prometheus
                    BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
                    This was who he prayed to and
                    wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
                    have been all that enlightened. Mo
                    wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
                    Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
                    "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
                    physical plane is of the "ECK" too
                    correct?

                    apollonius wrote:
                    Greetings Prometheus and all,

                    I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
                    disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
                    Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
                    However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
                    Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
                    realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
                    part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
                    by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
                    flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
                    magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

                    The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
                    professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
                    thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
                    know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
                    me comfort.

                    Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
                    making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
                    have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
                    Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
                    this day.

                    Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
                    own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
                    do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
                    with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
                    recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
                    advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
                    allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

                    Keep up the good work,

                    From the Heart,

                    Apollonius

                    >
                    > It's interesting to see
                    > and hear what the religious
                    > tricksters and conmen
                    > come up with in order
                    > to rationalize their guilt
                    > away. They will claim to
                    > be providing a "service"
                    > for people... to comfort
                    > them and take away their
                    > fears.
                    >
                    >
                    > Klemp certainly gives Lip
                    > Service to this claim:
                    >
                    > How do the teachings
                    > of Eckankar help people?
                    >
                    > The most important
                    > concept we need to
                    > get across is the continuity
                    > of life and going from
                    > this world to the next
                    > and beyond. People worry
                    > most about meeting
                    > the end of this life. [end]
                    >
                    >
                    > Really? I disagree!
                    >
                    > Now, it could be that
                    > Klemp is concerned with
                    > death since he was born
                    > in 1942. He's getting closer
                    > and closer to the grave.
                    >
                    > And, I'm sure that many
                    > from the Baby Boomer
                    > generation (the generation
                    > Klemp dislikes most) are
                    > thinking more about their
                    > health and the end of life.
                    >
                    > But there are those living
                    > in politically unstable countries
                    > who have more immediate
                    > fears concerning day-to-
                    > day life and freedoms.
                    >
                    > What many people
                    > are concerned about,
                    > here and now, in this
                    > present time versus the
                    > future is having enough
                    > money to pay the bills in
                    > order to continue and
                    > maintain a healthy life
                    > style. And, not being
                    > alone and, thus, dying
                    > alone is an important
                    > issue too.
                    >
                    > Let's face it. People
                    > need God more than
                    > God needs them, unless,
                    > you're Klemp... a false
                    > God called Mahanta!
                    >
                    > Klemp needs his flock
                    > of suckers. Even if HK
                    > stepped aside for the
                    > next conman to take
                    > over he'd still be writing
                    > his trashy books and
                    > be posing as a God of
                    > some sorts. Maybe he'd
                    > move to some private
                    > island and start rumors
                    > that he had been reborn
                    > as Rebazar had. Klemp
                    > wants to continue the
                    > myth to be remembered!
                    >
                    > Young people certainly
                    > aren't concerned about
                    > death... they're concerned
                    > about finding a spouse,
                    > and having a good job,
                    > a place to live, and money
                    > for more education and
                    > a car, and gas.... maybe
                    > a new computer or i-phone/
                    > droid.
                    >
                    > In truth, HK is trying
                    > to purge himself of
                    > his Guilt for not only
                    > having deficiencies
                    > as a God/Master but
                    > for his continued deceit.
                    >
                    > Consequently, he'll boost
                    > his ego and self-important
                    > image and, thus, feel
                    > good hand important
                    > that he's providing a
                    > "spiritual" service for
                    > the New Age segment
                    > of the population who
                    > are attracted to Eckankar's
                    > (Twitchell's) Western
                    > twist and edit of Radhasoami
                    > and Ruhani Satsang.
                    >
                    > But, it (religion) is all
                    > the same... just different
                    > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
                    > Eckankar is no exception!
                    >
                    > HK has millions squirreled
                    > away in an off-shore
                    > account so money and
                    > financial security is not
                    > a problem for him. Time
                    > is Klemp's big enemy
                    > and fear. That's why he
                    > wants to be remembered
                    > as being a great spiritual
                    > master even though his
                    > followers are deluded.
                    >
                    > Don't Eckists "worship"
                    > Klemp, their Mahanta?
                    > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
                    > to trick them! But, he
                    > sees it as being for their
                    > own good... he's helping
                    > them to find peace and
                    > happiness without fear.
                    > Eckists should believe
                    > in themselves, as Soul,
                    > and not give-up Soul's
                    > authority to decide and
                    > know. Initiations are
                    > bogus anyway and are
                    > simply used to dangle
                    > in front of people....
                    > that's the real "plus
                    > element" in Eckankar.
                    > There's Service, Coin,
                    > Time, Promises of
                    > Protection and Guidance
                    > "plus" that next initiation!
                    >
                    > Look at the Spiritual
                    > Exercises of EK that
                    > are designed around
                    > this purpose. Eckists
                    > will dream of, contemplate
                    > upon, and beseech
                    > their God/Mahanta
                    > for all sorts of things.
                    >
                    > These S.E.s are designed
                    > for Eckists to see HK's
                    > physical image don't
                    > they? Thus, the Mahanta
                    > brainwashing is reenforced
                    > over and over on a daily
                    > basis.
                    >
                    > And, this is why it's so
                    > difficult to escape from
                    > codependency. There
                    > can never be real/truthful
                    > "Spiritual Freedom" for
                    > Eckists. They will always
                    > need Klemp... he's their
                    > crutch and their meth.
                    >
                    > Prometheus



                  • Janice Pfeiffer
                    I did a lot of self discovery and study of various kinds of spiritual paths before I ever heard of eckankar.  It didn t prevent me from being suckered in. 
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 7, 2012
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                      I did a lot of self discovery and study of various kinds of spiritual paths before I ever heard of eckankar.  It didn't prevent me from being suckered in.  Further more, I didn't see the truth until  I was told by an actual HI how things really happened with initiations.  I don't know why he told me except he felt some compassion for my confusion and some how knew I needed real answers instead of more eck jargon.  At this point, I don't see any sense in blaming others who were mislead no matter how they performed as eckist or how they are handling their past associations with eckankar now.  You do become brain washed and it takes a lot of will power to give it up.   Eckankar is a world unto itself.  It is the perpetrators and those in Minneapolis who are keeping the deception going.  If any one feels a need to express their anger in any way, I feel it is best placed on the so called leaders of eckankar.  jepfeiffer

                      --- On Tue, 2/7/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                      From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                      Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud
                      To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Tuesday, February 7, 2012, 10:41 PM

                       
                      I won't disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.
                       
                      experiences further are phenomenal. I do not recommend believing that these are signs of knowing what truth is. they point the way in my opinion to something which is deeper, and more complete.
                       
                      But too the veracity of one's teachers cannot be questioned. and if these teachers are merely unconscous transmitters of ideas that they do not really understand themselves and not understanding misuse these ideas to gratify their own egos howver sweet these egotistical liars are you as the sincere student would probably be able to use these methods and ascertain some truths but how deeply and completely and why would you want to stay in Eckankar after looking behind the curtain?
                      I worry that phenomena can give a false security and Eckankar gives plenty of false security.
                       
                      I used to think compromising thoughts too, and for some it might prove to be a good. but it is a trap too. That's the thing I would be caution about.
                       
                      The search for meaning and truth is all important to me. Deeper realization of being is possible with an independant attitude. Study of the self, being and personality.
                       
                      Anyway, truth is not easy though sometimes it seems so, in my experience.
                      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 11:35 PM
                      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

                       
                      Hello Apollonius and All,
                      I'm not wrong. One cannot
                      find enlightenment via the
                      the false teachings of Eckankar.
                      It's called delusional, wishful,
                      and magical thinking.

                      However, it's possible that
                      one might find enlightenment
                      despite Eckankar and by seeing
                      the truth about Eckankar and
                      that of all religions and group
                      manmade dogmas. Man created
                      God in man's image and man
                      created religion as well. Women
                      created mankind, but men still
                      won't give them credit! LOL!

                      As for the Blue Light thingie.
                      That's something that many
                      people will see irregardless of
                      Eckankar. It's been proven and
                      written about and that's how
                      PT found it. He stole everything
                      and probably never had an
                      original thought worth anything.

                      Remember, the liar Twitchell
                      didn't create the Mahanta or
                      the Blue Light of the Mahanta
                      until Jan. 1969. This has been
                      proven via past Wisdom Notes.

                      Yes, I too knew Helen and
                      Millie (Workman) Moore.
                      Did you, too, go to HK's
                      Satsang class with Helen
                      across the desert of LV?

                      Just because you had a
                      personal spiritual experience
                      and connect that to some
                      of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
                      same charismatic conman,
                      doesn't mean you should
                      give Klemp a free pass. He's
                      done much more harm than
                      good by making Eckists
                      codependent upon him.

                      The lies do matter!

                      If you haven't figured that out
                      you're as deluded as the rest.

                      That one experience you had,
                      long ago, was probably "caused"
                      by your belief in Eckankar and
                      influenced by other people and
                      the nature of the situation. All
                      of you were looking/seeking for
                      something, a sign, and a feeling
                      and it's what you and your mental
                      impressions created/deciphered
                      and found.

                      I'm not saying that we don't
                      or can't have real spiritual
                      experiences. But, when we
                      do it certainly isn't because
                      of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
                      belief and person are not
                      spiritual conduits! Just the
                      opposite! Belief in Eckankar
                      and in "the Mahanta" will
                      only produce deluding Astral
                      experiences which appear
                      greater and "spiritual" in
                      the mind's eye!

                      I, too, have experienced
                      sounds like running water,
                      thunder, buzzing bees,
                      violins and flutes with
                      blue, yellow, golden and
                      bright white lights and
                      more! So what! That's
                      merely the phenomenal
                      world! Much was experienced
                      prior to, some during,
                      and even greater things
                      after Eckankar!

                      If you believe in the KAL,
                      then, deceivers and liars
                      who misrepresent truth
                      are of the KAL.

                      Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
                      and Klemp with their distortions
                      and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
                      and Ruhani Satsang would be of
                      the KAL because they have taken
                      upon themselves to use the trickster
                      trappings and characteristics of KAL.

                      But, all religions are of the KAL
                      or Satan. These religions that
                      Twitchell stole dogma from are
                      just as deceitful and off the mark
                      spiritually.

                      What Eckankar is selling and
                      what you are receiving is not
                      Truth! If you don't understand
                      the ramifications of this, then,
                      you are as deluded and lost as
                      they are. Enjoy your peyote!

                      Prometheus
                      BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
                      This was who he prayed to and
                      wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
                      have been all that enlightened. Mo
                      wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
                      Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
                      "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
                      physical plane is of the "ECK" too
                      correct?

                      apollonius wrote:
                      Greetings Prometheus and all,

                      I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
                      disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
                      Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
                      However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
                      Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
                      realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
                      part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
                      by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
                      flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
                      magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

                      The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
                      professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
                      thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
                      know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
                      me comfort.

                      Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
                      making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
                      have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
                      Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
                      this day.

                      Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
                      own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
                      do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
                      with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
                      recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
                      advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
                      allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

                      Keep up the good work,

                      From the Heart,

                      Apollonius

                      >
                      > It's interesting to see
                      > and hear what the religious
                      > tricksters and conmen
                      > come up with in order
                      > to rationalize their guilt
                      > away. They will claim to
                      > be providing a "service"
                      > for people... to comfort
                      > them and take away their
                      > fears.
                      >
                      >
                      > Klemp certainly gives Lip
                      > Service to this claim:
                      >
                      > How do the teachings
                      > of Eckankar help people?
                      >
                      > The most important
                      > concept we need to
                      > get across is the continuity
                      > of life and going from
                      > this world to the next
                      > and beyond. People worry
                      > most about meeting
                      > the end of this life. [end]
                      >
                      >
                      > Really? I disagree!
                      >
                      > Now, it could be that
                      > Klemp is concerned with
                      > death since he was born
                      > in 1942. He's getting closer
                      > and closer to the grave.
                      >
                      > And, I'm sure that many
                      > from the Baby Boomer
                      > generation (the generation
                      > Klemp dislikes most) are
                      > thinking more about their
                      > health and the end of life.
                      >
                      > But there are those living
                      > in politically unstable countries
                      > who have more immediate
                      > fears concerning day-to-
                      > day life and freedoms.
                      >
                      > What many people
                      > are concerned about,
                      > here and now, in this
                      > present time versus the
                      > future is having enough
                      > money to pay the bills in
                      > order to continue and
                      > maintain a healthy life
                      > style. And, not being
                      > alone and, thus, dying
                      > alone is an important
                      > issue too.
                      >
                      > Let's face it. People
                      > need God more than
                      > God needs them, unless,
                      > you're Klemp... a false
                      > God called Mahanta!
                      >
                      > Klemp needs his flock
                      > of suckers. Even if HK
                      > stepped aside for the
                      > next conman to take
                      > over he'd still be writing
                      > his trashy books and
                      > be posing as a God of
                      > some sorts. Maybe he'd
                      > move to some private
                      > island and start rumors
                      > that he had been reborn
                      > as Rebazar had. Klemp
                      > wants to continue the
                      > myth to be remembered!
                      >
                      > Young people certainly
                      > aren't concerned about
                      > death... they're concerned
                      > about finding a spouse,
                      > and having a good job,
                      > a place to live, and money
                      > for more education and
                      > a car, and gas.... maybe
                      > a new computer or i-phone/
                      > droid.
                      >
                      > In truth, HK is trying
                      > to purge himself of
                      > his Guilt for not only
                      > having deficiencies
                      > as a God/Master but
                      > for his continued deceit.
                      >
                      > Consequently, he'll boost
                      > his ego and self-important
                      > image and, thus, feel
                      > good hand important
                      > that he's providing a
                      > "spiritual" service for
                      > the New Age segment
                      > of the population who
                      > are attracted to Eckankar's
                      > (Twitchell's) Western
                      > twist and edit of Radhasoami
                      > and Ruhani Satsang.
                      >
                      > But, it (religion) is all
                      > the same... just different
                      > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
                      > Eckankar is no exception!
                      >
                      > HK has millions squirreled
                      > away in an off-shore
                      > account so money and
                      > financial security is not
                      > a problem for him. Time
                      > is Klemp's big enemy
                      > and fear. That's why he
                      > wants to be remembered
                      > as being a great spiritual
                      > master even though his
                      > followers are deluded.
                      >
                      > Don't Eckists "worship"
                      > Klemp, their Mahanta?
                      > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
                      > to trick them! But, he
                      > sees it as being for their
                      > own good... he's helping
                      > them to find peace and
                      > happiness without fear.
                      > Eckists should believe
                      > in themselves, as Soul,
                      > and not give-up Soul's
                      > authority to decide and
                      > know. Initiations are
                      > bogus anyway and are
                      > simply used to dangle
                      > in front of people....
                      > that's the real "plus
                      > element" in Eckankar.
                      > There's Service, Coin,
                      > Time, Promises of
                      > Protection and Guidance
                      > "plus" that next initiation!
                      >
                      > Look at the Spiritual
                      > Exercises of EK that
                      > are designed around
                      > this purpose. Eckists
                      > will dream of, contemplate
                      > upon, and beseech
                      > their God/Mahanta
                      > for all sorts of things.
                      >
                      > These S.E.s are designed
                      > for Eckists to see HK's
                      > physical image don't
                      > they? Thus, the Mahanta
                      > brainwashing is reenforced
                      > over and over on a daily
                      > basis.
                      >
                      > And, this is why it's so
                      > difficult to escape from
                      > codependency. There
                      > can never be real/truthful
                      > "Spiritual Freedom" for
                      > Eckists. They will always
                      > need Klemp... he's their
                      > crutch and their meth.
                      >
                      > Prometheus



                    • apollonius2k
                      Good points Prometheus!
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 8, 2012
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                        Good points Prometheus!

                        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Apollonius and All,
                        > I'll respond to your
                        > comments below.
                        >
                        > apollonius wrote:
                        > Hi Prometheus,
                        >
                        > Many, and rightfully so,
                        > have strong feelings of
                        > resentment for being led
                        > astray by Eckankar.
                        >
                        > If you listen to the reasoning
                        > of today's Hi's (well, the
                        > older ones anyway) as to
                        > why they still follow Eckankar,
                        > this rhetorical question
                        > will many times be heard
                        > as the answer, "Why throw
                        > the baby (Eckankar) out with
                        > the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)?
                        >
                        > I have never let HK "off the
                        > hook". He has had 30 years
                        > to set the record straight
                        > regarding Paul's made up
                        > hierarchy and writings, and
                        > is yet to do it. Also, It appears
                        > that he is bereft of spiritual
                        > experiences to write about
                        > as multiple times I caught
                        > him using my experiences
                        > and others in his HI teaching
                        > lessons.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > *****************************
                        > ME: The truth as to why longtime
                        > H.I.s have remained in Eckankar
                        > has nothing to do with Truth. It's
                        > all about fear and ego! They fear
                        > not having their EK friends and
                        > family members in their lives but,
                        > also, not having their admirers.
                        > Plus, look at all of that time and
                        > money they have invested and
                        > the initiations they've received.
                        > Many were "grandfathered" in
                        > without having to jump through
                        > the hoops that HK requires today.
                        > Besides, there's always the hope
                        > of getting that 8th or 9th Outer
                        > initiation. This is why the "baby"
                        > isn't thrown out with the dirty
                        > bath water... and why the bath
                        > water is used over and over,
                        > again and again.
                        > ******************************
                        >
                        >
                        > In the early days we read and
                        > were told that the books and
                        > myth Paul Twitchell built was
                        > absolute truth. For me, there
                        > had been many prior years of
                        > extra-physical experiences
                        > including the blue and other
                        > lights dating back to when I
                        > was three years old. I really
                        > didn't care about the myth or
                        > the LEM so much as the wealth
                        > of research contained therein.
                        > How the concepts bounced
                        > around inside my little sphere
                        > of consciousness and took me
                        > to a different place. These ideas
                        > could be tried and discarded
                        > or kept as "My" individual
                        > truths.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ****************************
                        > ME: Twitchell, as a conman,
                        > learned that many people
                        > have many things in common.
                        > Everyone dreams. And if one
                        > places attention upon the
                        > mysteries and myth of the
                        > spiritual realm they will dream
                        > and "see" things. I'm not
                        > saying that your experiences,
                        > especially, as a child weren't
                        > real, but I also know that
                        > parents and adults can
                        > mess with what a child thinks
                        > is real. Sometimes it's done
                        > out of "fun" by a somewhat
                        > deviant parent or relative.
                        > Sometimes, the fun is more
                        > of a cultural/religious thing
                        > like with Santa Claus or the
                        > Easter Bunny.
                        > *****************************
                        >
                        >
                        > As I rose through the
                        > ranks of Eckankar there
                        > was a peculiar thing that
                        > I noticed. The Mahdi were
                        > not practicing what they
                        > preached and it seemed
                        > like I was always in their
                        > cross hairs. This special
                        > attention and the energy
                        > they spewed uncontrolled,
                        > allowed me to become
                        > much stronger. There
                        > were many arguments
                        > that ensued all along the
                        > way, even with Darwin.
                        > My point was always
                        > that it is the individual
                        > path that counts, not the
                        > group or worship of a
                        > leader. If the LEM didn't
                        > know about me personally
                        > (which I discovered to be
                        > true the first time I met
                        > Darwin) then I was on my
                        > own.
                        >
                        >
                        > ***************************
                        > ME: Yes, there's a lot of
                        > ego associated with being
                        > an H.I. (leader). Ego was
                        > always rationalized away
                        > and looked upon as a
                        > "teaching tool" or as a "coat"
                        > that could be put on and
                        > taken off. It wasn't true
                        > but it did help to explain
                        > away the personality changes.
                        > I know that when I was at
                        > ECK events, in leadership
                        > roles, I almost always came
                        > across as being serious.
                        > I knew that I was being
                        > watched and evaluated
                        > and had to be careful to
                        > portray myself well. I, also,
                        > had to be cognizant of the
                        > proper procedures to follow
                        > which are spelled out in
                        > the "Guidelines." All of
                        > this was quite stressful.
                        > Why? Because I saw first
                        > hand what could happen
                        > to those who fell out-of-
                        > grace with the RESA.
                        >
                        > Yes, Klemp wouldn't know
                        > anything about his H.I.s,
                        > either, if it wasn't for the
                        > reports his RESAs send to
                        > the ESC. Everyone has a
                        > file and black marks and
                        > red flags can have initiations
                        > and positions put on a
                        > three-five year (or longer)
                        > hold. Sometimes there are
                        > things put into your ESC
                        > file and sometimes it's
                        > just that one RESA.
                        > ******************************
                        > MORE COMMENTS BELOW
                        > ******************************
                        >
                        > Prometheus said,
                        > >Yes, we all need to cut the
                        > > ties to any and all religions.
                        > > Religions are distortions
                        > > of Truth that are designed
                        > > around mass consumption.
                        > >
                        > > A group consciousness,
                        > > and even that within a
                        > > "circle of initiation," will
                        > > always be lower or stunted
                        > > than what the individual
                        > > can/will achieve when free
                        > > and unimpeded. Of course,
                        > > all initiations, of any sort,
                        > > are fraudulent!
                        > >
                        > > Consciousness is not handed
                        > > out by a demigod and printed
                        > > on an EK membership card.
                        >
                        > Agreed
                        >
                        > To my knowledge, Rumi
                        > couched his verbiage
                        > in the terms of the day.
                        > According to what I have
                        > researched, Rumi's teacher
                        > Shamsi was murdered
                        > for blasphemy against
                        > Islam.
                        >
                        >
                        > ****************************
                        > ME: It's usually thought that
                        > Rumi's companions killed Shams
                        > because they were jealous of
                        > him. After all, much of Rumi's
                        > poetry was inspired by the love
                        > he had for his friend and master.....
                        > Shams.
                        >
                        > However, Shams was Sunni.
                        > So, it could be that he was
                        > murdered by the more orthodox
                        > Shiites. IMO-Only a Shiite would
                        > say that Shams (a Sunni) was
                        > blasphemous.
                        > ********************************
                        >
                        > Though I can honestly say
                        > I never met any of Paul
                        > Twitchell's masters (and
                        > I doubt he did either) there
                        > have been times in my
                        > life when a "helper" appeared
                        > out of nowhere and guided
                        > me in a new direction with
                        > new ideas to think about.
                        > Whether I call them masters
                        > or any other term is irrelevant
                        > to me, they assisted my path
                        > and that's all that was needed.
                        >
                        > ******************************
                        > ME: I, too, have had experiences
                        > throughout life where it seemed
                        > I was being protected (mostly from
                        > myself) or was receiving guidance.
                        > Early on, Jesus would appear to
                        > me. I was a seeker and always
                        > seemed to be beseeching some
                        > spiritual authority for answers/
                        > guidance. But most people do
                        > the same! That's how/why the
                        > gods were created and, one reason,
                        > as to why religion was created.
                        > The other reasons for religions
                        > is to control the masses by
                        > alleviating their fears and giving
                        > hope of a better, pain free, afterlife.
                        > Plus, it's a money maker for those
                        > at the top of the hierarchy.
                        >
                        >
                        > Anyway, it was no surprise to
                        > see "EK Masters" in my dreams.
                        > It's funny that Eckankar validates
                        > itself with a handful of testimonials
                        > from people (innocent newbies)
                        > who claim they met a certain EK
                        > Master "prior" to joining Eckankar!
                        > It's kind of like (not really) St. Paul's
                        > experience with seeing Jesus while
                        > on the road to Damascus. Except
                        > Paul/Saul was blinded for three
                        > days. Hey, is that, and the Trinity,
                        > how Paul came up with/invented
                        > the, superstitious, EK Principle
                        > of the Threes?
                        > *********************************
                        >
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        >
                        > Apollonius
                        >
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