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Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

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  • prometheus_973
    It s interesting to see and hear what the religious tricksters and conmen come up with in order to rationalize their guilt away. They will claim to be
    Message 1 of 12 , Feb 3, 2012
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      It's interesting to see
      and hear what the religious
      tricksters and conmen
      come up with in order
      to rationalize their guilt
      away. They will claim to
      be providing a "service"
      for people... to comfort
      them and take away their
      fears.


      Klemp certainly gives Lip
      Service to this claim:

      How do the teachings
      of Eckankar help people?

      The most important
      concept we need to
      get across is the continuity
      of life and going from
      this world to the next
      and beyond. People worry
      most about meeting
      the end of this life. [end]


      Really? I disagree!

      Now, it could be that
      Klemp is concerned with
      death since he was born
      in 1942. He's getting closer
      and closer to the grave.

      And, I'm sure that many
      from the Baby Boomer
      generation (the generation
      Klemp dislikes most) are
      thinking more about their
      health and the end of life.

      But there are those living
      in politically unstable countries
      who have more immediate
      fears concerning day-to-
      day life and freedoms.

      What many people
      are concerned about,
      here and now, in this
      present time versus the
      future is having enough
      money to pay the bills in
      order to continue and
      maintain a healthy life
      style. And, not being
      alone and, thus, dying
      alone is an important
      issue too.

      Let's face it. People
      need God more than
      God needs them, unless,
      you're Klemp... a false
      God called Mahanta!

      Klemp needs his flock
      of suckers. Even if HK
      stepped aside for the
      next conman to take
      over he'd still be writing
      his trashy books and
      be posing as a God of
      some sorts. Maybe he'd
      move to some private
      island and start rumors
      that he had been reborn
      as Rebazar had. Klemp
      wants to continue the
      myth to be remembered!

      Young people certainly
      aren't concerned about
      death... they're concerned
      about finding a spouse,
      and having a good job,
      a place to live, and money
      for more education and
      a car, and gas.... maybe
      a new computer or i-phone/
      droid.

      In truth, HK is trying
      to purge himself of
      his Guilt for not only
      having deficiencies
      as a God/Master but
      for his continued deceit.

      Consequently, he'll boost
      his ego and self-important
      image and, thus, feel
      good hand important
      that he's providing a
      "spiritual" service for
      the New Age segment
      of the population who
      are attracted to Eckankar's
      (Twitchell's) Western
      twist and edit of Radhasoami
      and Ruhani Satsang.

      But, it (religion) is all
      the same... just different
      dogma and jargon. Klemp's
      Eckankar is no exception!

      HK has millions squirreled
      away in an off-shore
      account so money and
      financial security is not
      a problem for him. Time
      is Klemp's big enemy
      and fear. That's why he
      wants to be remembered
      as being a great spiritual
      master even though his
      followers are deluded.

      Don't Eckists "worship"
      Klemp, their Mahanta?
      Sure! That's Klemp's plan
      to trick them! But, he
      sees it as being for their
      own good... he's helping
      them to find peace and
      happiness without fear.
      Eckists should believe
      in themselves, as Soul,
      and not give-up Soul's
      authority to decide and
      know. Initiations are
      bogus anyway and are
      simply used to dangle
      in front of people....
      that's the real "plus
      element" in Eckankar.
      There's Service, Coin,
      Time, Promises of
      Protection and Guidance
      "plus" that next initiation!

      Look at the Spiritual
      Exercises of EK that
      are designed around
      this purpose. Eckists
      will dream of, contemplate
      upon, and beseech
      their God/Mahanta
      for all sorts of things.

      These S.E.s are designed
      for Eckists to see HK's
      physical image don't
      they? Thus, the Mahanta
      brainwashing is reenforced
      over and over on a daily
      basis.

      And, this is why it's so
      difficult to escape from
      codependency. There
      can never be real/truthful
      "Spiritual Freedom" for
      Eckists. They will always
      need Klemp... he's their
      crutch and their meth.

      Prometheus
    • apollonius2k
      Greetings Prometheus and all, I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom
      Message 2 of 12 , Feb 3, 2012
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        Greetings Prometheus and all,

        I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD. However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

        The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave me comfort.
        Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to this day.

        Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

        Keep up the good work,

        From the Heart,

        Apollonius




        >
        > It's interesting to see
        > and hear what the religious
        > tricksters and conmen
        > come up with in order
        > to rationalize their guilt
        > away. They will claim to
        > be providing a "service"
        > for people... to comfort
        > them and take away their
        > fears.
        >
        >
        > Klemp certainly gives Lip
        > Service to this claim:
        >
        > How do the teachings
        > of Eckankar help people?
        >
        > The most important
        > concept we need to
        > get across is the continuity
        > of life and going from
        > this world to the next
        > and beyond. People worry
        > most about meeting
        > the end of this life. [end]
        >
        >
        > Really? I disagree!
        >
        > Now, it could be that
        > Klemp is concerned with
        > death since he was born
        > in 1942. He's getting closer
        > and closer to the grave.
        >
        > And, I'm sure that many
        > from the Baby Boomer
        > generation (the generation
        > Klemp dislikes most) are
        > thinking more about their
        > health and the end of life.
        >
        > But there are those living
        > in politically unstable countries
        > who have more immediate
        > fears concerning day-to-
        > day life and freedoms.
        >
        > What many people
        > are concerned about,
        > here and now, in this
        > present time versus the
        > future is having enough
        > money to pay the bills in
        > order to continue and
        > maintain a healthy life
        > style. And, not being
        > alone and, thus, dying
        > alone is an important
        > issue too.
        >
        > Let's face it. People
        > need God more than
        > God needs them, unless,
        > you're Klemp... a false
        > God called Mahanta!
        >
        > Klemp needs his flock
        > of suckers. Even if HK
        > stepped aside for the
        > next conman to take
        > over he'd still be writing
        > his trashy books and
        > be posing as a God of
        > some sorts. Maybe he'd
        > move to some private
        > island and start rumors
        > that he had been reborn
        > as Rebazar had. Klemp
        > wants to continue the
        > myth to be remembered!
        >
        > Young people certainly
        > aren't concerned about
        > death... they're concerned
        > about finding a spouse,
        > and having a good job,
        > a place to live, and money
        > for more education and
        > a car, and gas.... maybe
        > a new computer or i-phone/
        > droid.
        >
        > In truth, HK is trying
        > to purge himself of
        > his Guilt for not only
        > having deficiencies
        > as a God/Master but
        > for his continued deceit.
        >
        > Consequently, he'll boost
        > his ego and self-important
        > image and, thus, feel
        > good hand important
        > that he's providing a
        > "spiritual" service for
        > the New Age segment
        > of the population who
        > are attracted to Eckankar's
        > (Twitchell's) Western
        > twist and edit of Radhasoami
        > and Ruhani Satsang.
        >
        > But, it (religion) is all
        > the same... just different
        > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
        > Eckankar is no exception!
        >
        > HK has millions squirreled
        > away in an off-shore
        > account so money and
        > financial security is not
        > a problem for him. Time
        > is Klemp's big enemy
        > and fear. That's why he
        > wants to be remembered
        > as being a great spiritual
        > master even though his
        > followers are deluded.
        >
        > Don't Eckists "worship"
        > Klemp, their Mahanta?
        > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
        > to trick them! But, he
        > sees it as being for their
        > own good... he's helping
        > them to find peace and
        > happiness without fear.
        > Eckists should believe
        > in themselves, as Soul,
        > and not give-up Soul's
        > authority to decide and
        > know. Initiations are
        > bogus anyway and are
        > simply used to dangle
        > in front of people....
        > that's the real "plus
        > element" in Eckankar.
        > There's Service, Coin,
        > Time, Promises of
        > Protection and Guidance
        > "plus" that next initiation!
        >
        > Look at the Spiritual
        > Exercises of EK that
        > are designed around
        > this purpose. Eckists
        > will dream of, contemplate
        > upon, and beseech
        > their God/Mahanta
        > for all sorts of things.
        >
        > These S.E.s are designed
        > for Eckists to see HK's
        > physical image don't
        > they? Thus, the Mahanta
        > brainwashing is reenforced
        > over and over on a daily
        > basis.
        >
        > And, this is why it's so
        > difficult to escape from
        > codependency. There
        > can never be real/truthful
        > "Spiritual Freedom" for
        > Eckists. They will always
        > need Klemp... he's their
        > crutch and their meth.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
      • Janice Pfeiffer
        I always did have a problem with the living eck master thing but I tried so hard to over come the resistance.  I did for the most part I think because I did
        Message 3 of 12 , Feb 4, 2012
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          I always did have a problem with the living eck master thing but I tried so hard to over come the resistance.  I did for the most part I think because I did see Klemp in my dreams and in contemplations.  In my dreams he was weird though like there was something wrong with him.  I think it was my higher self showing me that he wasn't what he seemed to be. 
           
          When I would hear Klemp speak, I had to over come the impulse to think that he bordered on being slow witted.  To me, he just didn't appear very intelligent and it was hard for me to understand why no one else seemed to see that.  Over all, he was revered so much that anything he did was marvelous.  My question today for myself and others is ; How do you make a God out of an uninspiring moron?  Looking back, I don't know how I managed to fool myself so badly.  I felt conflicted inside about it but on the outside, I tried so hard to believe he was worthy of all the adoration he was given.  I would like to hear if others felt that way about the living eck master concept. 
           
           Shortly before I got out he started adapting Christian songs to Eckankar.  One I remember is Amazing Grace.  At that point, I knew he had to be lacking in something.  To openly take Christian songs and try to use them for Eckankar was stupid to me since eckist were supposed to be the elite in spiritual development.  To me it said that Klemp had no talent or inspiration to draw on.  He, like Twitchell had to steal from everyone else. 
           
          As far as how self delusional Klemp might be about his lies, I kind of feel like he has bought the idea himself that he is the living eck master.  I think he believes it.  He was in a mental institution at one point.  I think it is probably something like how schizophrenics ofthen think they are Jesus.
           
          For the most part now , I feel ashamed of ever having been an eckist.  I only feel comfortable talking about it with others who were eckist too. 
           
           So thank all you guys for being out there. 

          --- On Fri, 2/3/12, prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...> wrote:

          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Friday, February 3, 2012, 10:43 PM

           
          It's interesting to see
          and hear what the religious
          tricksters and conmen
          come up with in order
          to rationalize their guilt
          away. They will claim to
          be providing a "service"
          for people... to comfort
          them and take away their
          fears.

          Klemp certainly gives Lip
          Service to this claim:

          How do the teachings
          of Eckankar help people?

          The most important
          concept we need to
          get across is the continuity
          of life and going from
          this world to the next
          and beyond. People worry
          most about meeting
          the end of this life. [end]

          Really? I disagree!

          Now, it could be that
          Klemp is concerned with
          death since he was born
          in 1942. He's getting closer
          and closer to the grave.

          And, I'm sure that many
          from the Baby Boomer
          generation (the generation
          Klemp dislikes most) are
          thinking more about their
          health and the end of life.

          But there are those living
          in politically unstable countries
          who have more immediate
          fears concerning day-to-
          day life and freedoms.

          What many people
          are concerned about,
          here and now, in this
          present time versus the
          future is having enough
          money to pay the bills in
          order to continue and
          maintain a healthy life
          style. And, not being
          alone and, thus, dying
          alone is an important
          issue too.

          Let's face it. People
          need God more than
          God needs them, unless,
          you're Klemp... a false
          God called Mahanta!

          Klemp needs his flock
          of suckers. Even if HK
          stepped aside for the
          next conman to take
          over he'd still be writing
          his trashy books and
          be posing as a God of
          some sorts. Maybe he'd
          move to some private
          island and start rumors
          that he had been reborn
          as Rebazar had. Klemp
          wants to continue the
          myth to be remembered!

          Young people certainly
          aren't concerned about
          death... they're concerned
          about finding a spouse,
          and having a good job,
          a place to live, and money
          for more education and
          a car, and gas.... maybe
          a new computer or i-phone/
          droid.

          In truth, HK is trying
          to purge himself of
          his Guilt for not only
          having deficiencies
          as a God/Master but
          for his continued deceit.

          Consequently, he'll boost
          his ego and self-important
          image and, thus, feel
          good hand important
          that he's providing a
          "spiritual" service for
          the New Age segment
          of the population who
          are attracted to Eckankar's
          (Twitchell's) Western
          twist and edit of Radhasoami
          and Ruhani Satsang.

          But, it (religion) is all
          the same... just different
          dogma and jargon. Klemp's
          Eckankar is no exception!

          HK has millions squirreled
          away in an off-shore
          account so money and
          financial security is not
          a problem for him. Time
          is Klemp's big enemy
          and fear. That's why he
          wants to be remembered
          as being a great spiritual
          master even though his
          followers are deluded.

          Don't Eckists "worship"
          Klemp, their Mahanta?
          Sure! That's Klemp's plan
          to trick them! But, he
          sees it as being for their
          own good... he's helping
          them to find peace and
          happiness without fear.
          Eckists should believe
          in themselves, as Soul,
          and not give-up Soul's
          authority to decide and
          know. Initiations are
          bogus anyway and are
          simply used to dangle
          in front of people....
          that's the real "plus
          element" in Eckankar.
          There's Service, Coin,
          Time, Promises of
          Protection and Guidance
          "plus" that next initiation!

          Look at the Spiritual
          Exercises of EK that
          are designed around
          this purpose. Eckists
          will dream of, contemplate
          upon, and beseech
          their God/Mahanta
          for all sorts of things.

          These S.E.s are designed
          for Eckists to see HK's
          physical image don't
          they? Thus, the Mahanta
          brainwashing is reenforced
          over and over on a daily
          basis.

          And, this is why it's so
          difficult to escape from
          codependency. There
          can never be real/truthful
          "Spiritual Freedom" for
          Eckists. They will always
          need Klemp... he's their
          crutch and their meth.

          Prometheus

        • prometheus_973
          Hello Janice and All, Thanks for sharing. I ll respond below. Janice wrote: I always did have a problem with the living eck master thing but I tried so hard to
          Message 4 of 12 , Feb 4, 2012
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            Hello Janice and All,
            Thanks for sharing.
            I'll respond below.

            Janice wrote:

            I always did have a problem with the living eck master thing but I tried so hard to over come the resistance. I did for the most part I think because I did see Klemp in my dreams and in contemplations. In my dreams he was weird though like there was something wrong with him. I think it was my higher self showing me that he wasn't what he seemed to be.

            ME: I found it hard
            to drink the cool aid
            too, but eventually
            I did swallow it. It
            made running the
            local EK business
            center easier and
            helped to place me
            inside of the RESA's
            trusted circle. This,
            too, gave me contact
            and recognition with
            some of the higher
            ups at the ESC. You
            have to buy into the
            fantasy for it to work.

            Yes, Paul and Darwin
            were extroverts and
            had charisma, whereas,
            Klemp is introverted
            and has no charisma
            but makes up for this
            lack with his shyness
            and country bumpkin
            show of humility.

            Klemp was always more
            of an embarrassing little
            weasel than anything.


            When I would hear Klemp speak, I had to over come the impulse to think that he bordered on being slow witted. To me, he just didn't appear very intelligent and it was hard for me to understand why no one else seemed to see that. Over all, he was revered so much that anything he did was marvelous. My question today for myself and others is ; How do you make a God out of an uninspiring moron? Looking back, I don't know how I managed to fool myself so badly. I felt conflicted inside about it but on the outside, I tried so hard to believe he was worthy of all the adoration he was given. I would like to hear if others felt that way about the living eck master concept.


            ME: Yes, he's revered and
            worshiped. He can do no
            wrong and will accept no
            responsibility... he's God
            on earth! Even his stammering
            and long pauses while flipping
            through note cards will elevate
            his giddy followers to delusional
            states of nervous ecstasy.
            Or, it will put them in a trance
            and to sleep... especially at
            seminars after a long day of
            travel. But, no problem to
            fall asleep... you're getting
            it on the inner and you can
            buy the tape in three months
            anyway!

            During his talks, when awake,
            I would take notes of the
            highlights and the points
            he was making. Even in a
            brainwashed state I would
            have trouble with some of
            it, his assumptions and one
            dimensional perspectives,
            and later I would discuss it
            with my wife. Somehow we
            resolved the issues we had.

            A lot of rationalizing takes
            place. After all, HK's a 14th
            so how can "we" know what
            his intent is/was or how we
            were to fill-in the blanks.
            Maybe the "true" message
            came via the inner for Soul
            and the physical one, for
            the mind, was simply a
            means of priming the pump
            for it to be revealed in dreams
            on the higher inner planes!
            See! Eckists just imagine
            it to be whatever you need/
            want it to be.

            Shortly before I got out he started adapting Christian songs to Eckankar. One I remember is Amazing Grace. At that point, I knew he had to be lacking in something. To openly take Christian songs and try to use them for Eckankar was stupid to me since eckist were supposed to be the elite in spiritual development. To me it said that Klemp had no talent or inspiration to draw on. He, like Twitchell had to steal from everyone else.

            ME: Yes, there're more songs
            and an EK choir book is sold
            too! Klemp is trying to make
            Eckankar, and himself, blend
            in and seem legitimate with
            Sunday Worship Services, singing,
            choirs, clerics, and King James
            Bible scripture quotes. He wants
            to fit-in, so to speak, with all
            of the other church leaders
            in Chanhassen rather than be
            considered a cult leader. His
            cheap suits and mousey appearance
            are meant to disarm people.


            As far as how self delusional Klemp might be about his lies, I kind of feel like he has bought the idea himself that he is the living eck master. I think he believes it. He was in a mental institution at one point. I think it is probably something like how schizophrenics ofthen think they are Jesus.


            ME: I think that you are
            right. HK does believe it,
            but then, again, he doesn't.

            Klemp is a narcissist, ergo,
            he believes he's God's gift...
            as do all narcissists.

            True, he was in a mental
            institution for three weeks
            and "was released early"
            because he said he "learned
            how to play the game."

            That's how Klemp suckered
            Darwin... he was playing
            his game by flying under
            the radar, writing EK brochures
            and not telling Darwin the
            whole truth.

            I do find it interesting that
            Darwin was "hesitated" when
            Klemp wanted to meet to
            discuss the "transition" in
            an inner room at HK's office
            at the ESC, after, he had told
            DG that it was a Dark Room
            that had been Sound Proofed
            by the previous resident.

            Get it? No Light or Sound
            (ECK) could get in!

            For some reason this
            "coincidence" doesn't seem
            to bother Eckists in the same
            way it didn't bother Klemp.

            Isn't it true that Eckists
            believe there is No such
            things as Coincidence!

            Anyway, this info can be
            found in CH. 7 of HK's hard
            to find book "Soul Travelers
            of the Far Country." Klemp
            edited out most of this info
            when he recounted it in his
            "Autobiography of a Modern
            Prophet." But, he does mention
            that Darwin "hesitated" to
            meet with him in that room.
            Just connect the dots as to
            why Darwin hesitated. Funny,
            Darwin saw the connection
            but Klemp didn't!

            Yet, Klemp referred to Darwin
            as the Black Magician when
            it was him! Clever, but as an
            agent of Kal, i.e. Satan, we
            should expect as much.


            For the most part now , I feel ashamed of ever having been an eckist. I only feel comfortable talking about it with others who were eckist too.

            ME: It was somewhat embarrassing
            then, but it's equally embarrassing
            to admit it now. Actually, I won't
            discuss it with people... not that they'd
            ask. I don't go to church so there's
            nobody to ask such probing questions
            as, "What church did you belong to?"


            So thank all you guys for being out there.

            ME: Thanks for sharing.
            Please tell us more if you'd
            like. Got any juicy EK stories?

            prometheus wrote:

            It's interesting to see
            and hear what the religious
            tricksters and conmen
            come up with in order
            to rationalize their guilt
            away. They will claim to
            be providing a "service"
            for people... to comfort
            them and take away their
            fears.

            Klemp certainly gives Lip
            Service to this claim:

            How do the teachings
            of Eckankar help people?

            The most important
            concept we need to
            get across is the continuity
            of life and going from
            this world to the next
            and beyond. People worry
            most about meeting
            the end of this life. [end]

            Really? I disagree!

            Now, it could be that
            Klemp is concerned with
            death since he was born
            in 1942. He's getting closer
            and closer to the grave.

            And, I'm sure that many
            from the Baby Boomer
            generation (the generation
            Klemp dislikes most) are
            thinking more about their
            health and the end of life.

            But there are those living
            in politically unstable countries
            who have more immediate
            fears concerning day-to-
            day life and freedoms.

            What many people
            are concerned about,
            here and now, in this
            present time versus the
            future is having enough
            money to pay the bills in
            order to continue and
            maintain a healthy life
            style. And, not being
            alone and, thus, dying
            alone is an important
            issue too.

            Let's face it. People
            need God more than
            God needs them, unless,
            you're Klemp... a false
            God called Mahanta!

            Klemp needs his flock
            of suckers. Even if HK
            stepped aside for the
            next conman to take
            over he'd still be writing
            his trashy books and
            be posing as a God of
            some sorts. Maybe he'd
            move to some private
            island and start rumors
            that he had been reborn
            as Rebazar had. Klemp
            wants to continue the
            myth to be remembered!

            Young people certainly
            aren't concerned about
            death... they're concerned
            about finding a spouse,
            and having a good job,
            a place to live, and money
            for more education and
            a car, and gas.... maybe
            a new computer or i-phone/
            droid.

            In truth, HK is trying
            to purge himself of
            his Guilt for not only
            having deficiencies
            as a God/Master but
            for his continued deceit.

            Consequently, he'll boost
            his ego and self-important
            image and, thus, feel
            good hand important
            that he's providing a
            "spiritual" service for
            the New Age segment
            of the population who
            are attracted to Eckankar's
            (Twitchell's) Western
            twist and edit of Radhasoami
            and Ruhani Satsang.

            But, it (religion) is all
            the same... just different
            dogma and jargon. Klemp's
            Eckankar is no exception!

            HK has millions squirreled
            away in an off-shore
            account so money and
            financial security is not
            a problem for him. Time
            is Klemp's big enemy
            and fear. That's why he
            wants to be remembered
            as being a great spiritual
            master even though his
            followers are deluded.

            Don't Eckists "worship"
            Klemp, their Mahanta?
            Sure! That's Klemp's plan
            to trick them! But, he
            sees it as being for their
            own good... he's helping
            them to find peace and
            happiness without fear.
            Eckists should believe
            in themselves, as Soul,
            and not give-up Soul's
            authority to decide and
            know. Initiations are
            bogus anyway and are
            simply used to dangle
            in front of people....
            that's the real "plus
            element" in Eckankar.
            There's Service, Coin,
            Time, Promises of
            Protection and Guidance
            "plus" that next initiation!

            Look at the Spiritual
            Exercises of EK that
            are designed around
            this purpose. Eckists
            will dream of, contemplate
            upon, and beseech
            their God/Mahanta
            for all sorts of things.

            These S.E.s are designed
            for Eckists to see HK's
            physical image don't
            they? Thus, the Mahanta
            brainwashing is reenforced
            over and over on a daily
            basis.

            And, this is why it's so
            difficult to escape from
            codependency. There
            can never be real/truthful
            "Spiritual Freedom" for
            Eckists. They will always
            need Klemp... he's their
            crutch and their meth.

            Prometheus
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Apollonius and All, I m not wrong. One cannot find enlightenment via the the false teachings of Eckankar. It s called delusional, wishful, and magical
            Message 5 of 12 , Feb 4, 2012
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              Hello Apollonius and All,
              I'm not wrong. One cannot
              find enlightenment via the
              the false teachings of Eckankar.
              It's called delusional, wishful,
              and magical thinking.

              However, it's possible that
              one might find enlightenment
              despite Eckankar and by seeing
              the truth about Eckankar and
              that of all religions and group
              manmade dogmas. Man created
              God in man's image and man
              created religion as well. Women
              created mankind, but men still
              won't give them credit! LOL!

              As for the Blue Light thingie.
              That's something that many
              people will see irregardless of
              Eckankar. It's been proven and
              written about and that's how
              PT found it. He stole everything
              and probably never had an
              original thought worth anything.

              Remember, the liar Twitchell
              didn't create the Mahanta or
              the Blue Light of the Mahanta
              until Jan. 1969. This has been
              proven via past Wisdom Notes.

              Yes, I too knew Helen and
              Millie (Workman) Moore.
              Did you, too, go to HK's
              Satsang class with Helen
              across the desert of LV?

              Just because you had a
              personal spiritual experience
              and connect that to some
              of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
              same charismatic conman,
              doesn't mean you should
              give Klemp a free pass. He's
              done much more harm than
              good by making Eckists
              codependent upon him.

              The lies do matter!

              If you haven't figured that out
              you're as deluded as the rest.

              That one experience you had,
              long ago, was probably "caused"
              by your belief in Eckankar and
              influenced by other people and
              the nature of the situation. All
              of you were looking/seeking for
              something, a sign, and a feeling
              and it's what you and your mental
              impressions created/deciphered
              and found.

              I'm not saying that we don't
              or can't have real spiritual
              experiences. But, when we
              do it certainly isn't because
              of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
              belief and person are not
              spiritual conduits! Just the
              opposite! Belief in Eckankar
              and in "the Mahanta" will
              only produce deluding Astral
              experiences which appear
              greater and "spiritual" in
              the mind's eye!

              I, too, have experienced
              sounds like running water,
              thunder, buzzing bees,
              violins and flutes with
              blue, yellow, golden and
              bright white lights and
              more! So what! That's
              merely the phenomenal
              world! Much was experienced
              prior to, some during,
              and even greater things
              after Eckankar!

              If you believe in the KAL,
              then, deceivers and liars
              who misrepresent truth
              are of the KAL.

              Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
              and Klemp with their distortions
              and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
              and Ruhani Satsang would be of
              the KAL because they have taken
              upon themselves to use the trickster
              trappings and characteristics of KAL.

              But, all religions are of the KAL
              or Satan. These religions that
              Twitchell stole dogma from are
              just as deceitful and off the mark
              spiritually.

              What Eckankar is selling and
              what you are receiving is not
              Truth! If you don't understand
              the ramifications of this, then,
              you are as deluded and lost as
              they are. Enjoy your peyote!


              Prometheus
              BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
              This was who he prayed to and
              wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
              have been all that enlightened. Mo
              wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
              Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
              "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
              physical plane is of the "ECK" too
              correct?




              apollonius wrote:
              Greetings Prometheus and all,

              I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
              disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
              Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
              However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
              Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
              realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
              part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
              by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
              flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
              magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

              The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
              professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
              thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
              know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
              me comfort.

              Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
              making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
              have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
              Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
              this day.

              Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
              own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
              do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
              with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
              recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
              advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
              allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

              Keep up the good work,

              From the Heart,

              Apollonius




              >
              > It's interesting to see
              > and hear what the religious
              > tricksters and conmen
              > come up with in order
              > to rationalize their guilt
              > away. They will claim to
              > be providing a "service"
              > for people... to comfort
              > them and take away their
              > fears.
              >
              >
              > Klemp certainly gives Lip
              > Service to this claim:
              >
              > How do the teachings
              > of Eckankar help people?
              >
              > The most important
              > concept we need to
              > get across is the continuity
              > of life and going from
              > this world to the next
              > and beyond. People worry
              > most about meeting
              > the end of this life. [end]
              >
              >
              > Really? I disagree!
              >
              > Now, it could be that
              > Klemp is concerned with
              > death since he was born
              > in 1942. He's getting closer
              > and closer to the grave.
              >
              > And, I'm sure that many
              > from the Baby Boomer
              > generation (the generation
              > Klemp dislikes most) are
              > thinking more about their
              > health and the end of life.
              >
              > But there are those living
              > in politically unstable countries
              > who have more immediate
              > fears concerning day-to-
              > day life and freedoms.
              >
              > What many people
              > are concerned about,
              > here and now, in this
              > present time versus the
              > future is having enough
              > money to pay the bills in
              > order to continue and
              > maintain a healthy life
              > style. And, not being
              > alone and, thus, dying
              > alone is an important
              > issue too.
              >
              > Let's face it. People
              > need God more than
              > God needs them, unless,
              > you're Klemp... a false
              > God called Mahanta!
              >
              > Klemp needs his flock
              > of suckers. Even if HK
              > stepped aside for the
              > next conman to take
              > over he'd still be writing
              > his trashy books and
              > be posing as a God of
              > some sorts. Maybe he'd
              > move to some private
              > island and start rumors
              > that he had been reborn
              > as Rebazar had. Klemp
              > wants to continue the
              > myth to be remembered!
              >
              > Young people certainly
              > aren't concerned about
              > death... they're concerned
              > about finding a spouse,
              > and having a good job,
              > a place to live, and money
              > for more education and
              > a car, and gas.... maybe
              > a new computer or i-phone/
              > droid.
              >
              > In truth, HK is trying
              > to purge himself of
              > his Guilt for not only
              > having deficiencies
              > as a God/Master but
              > for his continued deceit.
              >
              > Consequently, he'll boost
              > his ego and self-important
              > image and, thus, feel
              > good hand important
              > that he's providing a
              > "spiritual" service for
              > the New Age segment
              > of the population who
              > are attracted to Eckankar's
              > (Twitchell's) Western
              > twist and edit of Radhasoami
              > and Ruhani Satsang.
              >
              > But, it (religion) is all
              > the same... just different
              > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
              > Eckankar is no exception!
              >
              > HK has millions squirreled
              > away in an off-shore
              > account so money and
              > financial security is not
              > a problem for him. Time
              > is Klemp's big enemy
              > and fear. That's why he
              > wants to be remembered
              > as being a great spiritual
              > master even though his
              > followers are deluded.
              >
              > Don't Eckists "worship"
              > Klemp, their Mahanta?
              > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
              > to trick them! But, he
              > sees it as being for their
              > own good... he's helping
              > them to find peace and
              > happiness without fear.
              > Eckists should believe
              > in themselves, as Soul,
              > and not give-up Soul's
              > authority to decide and
              > know. Initiations are
              > bogus anyway and are
              > simply used to dangle
              > in front of people....
              > that's the real "plus
              > element" in Eckankar.
              > There's Service, Coin,
              > Time, Promises of
              > Protection and Guidance
              > "plus" that next initiation!
              >
              > Look at the Spiritual
              > Exercises of EK that
              > are designed around
              > this purpose. Eckists
              > will dream of, contemplate
              > upon, and beseech
              > their God/Mahanta
              > for all sorts of things.
              >
              > These S.E.s are designed
              > for Eckists to see HK's
              > physical image don't
              > they? Thus, the Mahanta
              > brainwashing is reenforced
              > over and over on a daily
              > basis.
              >
              > And, this is why it's so
              > difficult to escape from
              > codependency. There
              > can never be real/truthful
              > "Spiritual Freedom" for
              > Eckists. They will always
              > need Klemp... he's their
              > crutch and their meth.
              >
              > Prometheus
            • Janice Pfeiffer
              Prometheus is right.  You see what you expect to see cuz you are programmed to associate all your experiences to eckankar.  About the blue light thing. 
              Message 6 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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                Prometheus is right.  You see what you expect to see cuz you are programmed to associate all your experiences to eckankar.  About the blue light thing.  Maybe they used some hidden blue lights to create the aura of blue.  I wouldn't put it past them.  They are such fakers.  Spiritual freedom in eckankar?  How can it be when from day one you are taught that you have a master.  I have never been more free than since I got out of eckankar.

                --- On Sat, 2/4/12, apollonius2k <apollonius2k@...> wrote:

                From: apollonius2k <apollonius2k@...>
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, February 4, 2012, 7:42 AM

                 
                Greetings Prometheus and all,

                I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD. However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

                The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave me comfort.
                Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to this day.

                Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

                Keep up the good work,

                From the Heart,

                Apollonius

                >
                > It's interesting to see
                > and hear what the religious
                > tricksters and conmen
                > come up with in order
                > to rationalize their guilt
                > away. They will claim to
                > be providing a "service"
                > for people... to comfort
                > them and take away their
                > fears.
                >
                >
                > Klemp certainly gives Lip
                > Service to this claim:
                >
                > How do the teachings
                > of Eckankar help people?
                >
                > The most important
                > concept we need to
                > get across is the continuity
                > of life and going from
                > this world to the next
                > and beyond. People worry
                > most about meeting
                > the end of this life. [end]
                >
                >
                > Really? I disagree!
                >
                > Now, it could be that
                > Klemp is concerned with
                > death since he was born
                > in 1942. He's getting closer
                > and closer to the grave.
                >
                > And, I'm sure that many
                > from the Baby Boomer
                > generation (the generation
                > Klemp dislikes most) are
                > thinking more about their
                > health and the end of life.
                >
                > But there are those living
                > in politically unstable countries
                > who have more immediate
                > fears concerning day-to-
                > day life and freedoms.
                >
                > What many people
                > are concerned about,
                > here and now, in this
                > present time versus the
                > future is having enough
                > money to pay the bills in
                > order to continue and
                > maintain a healthy life
                > style. And, not being
                > alone and, thus, dying
                > alone is an important
                > issue too.
                >
                > Let's face it. People
                > need God more than
                > God needs them, unless,
                > you're Klemp... a false
                > God called Mahanta!
                >
                > Klemp needs his flock
                > of suckers. Even if HK
                > stepped aside for the
                > next conman to take
                > over he'd still be writing
                > his trashy books and
                > be posing as a God of
                > some sorts. Maybe he'd
                > move to some private
                > island and start rumors
                > that he had been reborn
                > as Rebazar had. Klemp
                > wants to continue the
                > myth to be remembered!
                >
                > Young people certainly
                > aren't concerned about
                > death... they're concerned
                > about finding a spouse,
                > and having a good job,
                > a place to live, and money
                > for more education and
                > a car, and gas.... maybe
                > a new computer or i-phone/
                > droid.
                >
                > In truth, HK is trying
                > to purge himself of
                > his Guilt for not only
                > having deficiencies
                > as a God/Master but
                > for his continued deceit.
                >
                > Consequently, he'll boost
                > his ego and self-important
                > image and, thus, feel
                > good hand important
                > that he's providing a
                > "spiritual" service for
                > the New Age segment
                > of the population who
                > are attracted to Eckankar's
                > (Twitchell's) Western
                > twist and edit of Radhasoami
                > and Ruhani Satsang.
                >
                > But, it (religion) is all
                > the same... just different
                > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
                > Eckankar is no exception!
                >
                > HK has millions squirreled
                > away in an off-shore
                > account so money and
                > financial security is not
                > a problem for him. Time
                > is Klemp's big enemy
                > and fear. That's why he
                > wants to be remembered
                > as being a great spiritual
                > master even though his
                > followers are deluded.
                >
                > Don't Eckists "worship"
                > Klemp, their Mahanta?
                > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
                > to trick them! But, he
                > sees it as being for their
                > own good... he's helping
                > them to find peace and
                > happiness without fear.
                > Eckists should believe
                > in themselves, as Soul,
                > and not give-up Soul's
                > authority to decide and
                > know. Initiations are
                > bogus anyway and are
                > simply used to dangle
                > in front of people....
                > that's the real "plus
                > element" in Eckankar.
                > There's Service, Coin,
                > Time, Promises of
                > Protection and Guidance
                > "plus" that next initiation!
                >
                > Look at the Spiritual
                > Exercises of EK that
                > are designed around
                > this purpose. Eckists
                > will dream of, contemplate
                > upon, and beseech
                > their God/Mahanta
                > for all sorts of things.
                >
                > These S.E.s are designed
                > for Eckists to see HK's
                > physical image don't
                > they? Thus, the Mahanta
                > brainwashing is reenforced
                > over and over on a daily
                > basis.
                >
                > And, this is why it's so
                > difficult to escape from
                > codependency. There
                > can never be real/truthful
                > "Spiritual Freedom" for
                > Eckists. They will always
                > need Klemp... he's their
                > crutch and their meth.
                >
                > Prometheus
                >

              • prometheus_973
                Hello Again Apollonius, I reread my comments to you and feel that I should apologize for some of what I said. My opinions of Eckankar and of the harm caused by
                Message 7 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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                  Hello Again Apollonius,
                  I reread my comments
                  to you and feel that I
                  should apologize for
                  some of what I said.

                  My opinions of Eckankar
                  and of the harm caused
                  by Twitchell's and Klemp's
                  fraud still stands.

                  Yes, we all need to cut the
                  ties to any and all religions.
                  Religions are distortions
                  of Truth that are designed
                  around mass consumption.

                  A group consciousness,
                  and even that within a
                  "circle of initiation," will
                  always be lower or stunted
                  than what the individual
                  can/will achieve when free
                  and unimpeded. Of course,
                  all initiations, of any sort,
                  are fraudulent!

                  Consciousness is not handed
                  out by a demigod and printed
                  on an EK membership card.

                  Prometheus



                  prometheus_wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Apollonius and All,
                  > I'm not wrong. One cannot
                  > find enlightenment via the
                  > the false teachings of Eckankar.
                  > It's called delusional, wishful,
                  > and magical thinking.
                  >
                  > However, it's possible that
                  > one might find enlightenment
                  > despite Eckankar and by seeing
                  > the truth about Eckankar and
                  > that of all religions and group
                  > manmade dogmas. Man created
                  > God in man's image and man
                  > created religion as well. Women
                  > created mankind, but men still
                  > won't give them credit! LOL!
                  >
                  > As for the Blue Light thingie.
                  > That's something that many
                  > people will see irregardless of
                  > Eckankar. It's been proven and
                  > written about and that's how
                  > PT found it. He stole everything
                  > and probably never had an
                  > original thought worth anything.
                  >
                  > Remember, the liar Twitchell
                  > didn't create the Mahanta or
                  > the Blue Light of the Mahanta
                  > until Jan. 1969. This has been
                  > proven via past Wisdom Notes.
                  >
                  > Yes, I too knew Helen and
                  > Millie (Workman) Moore.
                  > Did you, too, go to HK's
                  > Satsang class with Helen
                  > across the desert of LV?
                  >
                  > Just because you had a
                  > personal spiritual experience
                  > and connect that to some
                  > of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
                  > same charismatic conman,
                  > doesn't mean you should
                  > give Klemp a free pass. He's
                  > done much more harm than
                  > good by making Eckists
                  > codependent upon him.
                  >
                  > The lies do matter!
                  >
                  > If you haven't figured that out
                  > you're as deluded as the rest.
                  >
                  > That one experience you had,
                  > long ago, was probably "caused"
                  > by your belief in Eckankar and
                  > influenced by other people and
                  > the nature of the situation. All
                  > of you were looking/seeking for
                  > something, a sign, and a feeling
                  > and it's what you and your mental
                  > impressions created/deciphered
                  > and found.
                  >
                  > I'm not saying that we don't
                  > or can't have real spiritual
                  > experiences. But, when we
                  > do it certainly isn't because
                  > of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
                  > belief and person are not
                  > spiritual conduits! Just the
                  > opposite! Belief in Eckankar
                  > and in "the Mahanta" will
                  > only produce deluding Astral
                  > experiences which appear
                  > greater and "spiritual" in
                  > the mind's eye!
                  >
                  > I, too, have experienced
                  > sounds like running water,
                  > thunder, buzzing bees,
                  > violins and flutes with
                  > blue, yellow, golden and
                  > bright white lights and
                  > more! So what! That's
                  > merely the phenomenal
                  > world! Much was experienced
                  > prior to, some during,
                  > and even greater things
                  > after Eckankar!
                  >
                  > If you believe in the KAL,
                  > then, deceivers and liars
                  > who misrepresent truth
                  > are of the KAL.
                  >
                  > Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
                  > and Klemp with their distortions
                  > and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
                  > and Ruhani Satsang would be of
                  > the KAL because they have taken
                  > upon themselves to use the trickster
                  > trappings and characteristics of KAL.
                  >
                  > But, all religions are of the KAL
                  > or Satan. These religions that
                  > Twitchell stole dogma from are
                  > just as deceitful and off the mark
                  > spiritually.
                  >
                  > What Eckankar is selling and
                  > what you are receiving is not
                  > Truth! If you don't understand
                  > the ramifications of this, then,
                  > you are as deluded and lost as
                  > they are. Enjoy your peyote!
                  >
                  >
                  > Prometheus
                  > BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
                  > This was who he prayed to and
                  > wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
                  > have been all that enlightened. Mo
                  > wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
                  > Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
                  > "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
                  > physical plane is of the "ECK" too
                  > correct?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > apollonius wrote:
                  > Greetings Prometheus and all,
                  >
                  > I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
                  > disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
                  > Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
                  > However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
                  > Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
                  > realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
                  > part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
                  > by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
                  > flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
                  > magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.
                  >
                  > The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
                  > professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
                  > thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
                  > know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
                  > me comfort.
                  >
                  > Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
                  > making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
                  > have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
                  > Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
                  > this day.
                  >
                  > Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
                  > own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
                  > do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
                  > with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
                  > recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
                  > advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
                  > allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.
                  >
                  > Keep up the good work,
                  >
                  > From the Heart,
                  >
                  > Apollonius
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > It's interesting to see
                  > > and hear what the religious
                  > > tricksters and conmen
                  > > come up with in order
                  > > to rationalize their guilt
                  > > away. They will claim to
                  > > be providing a "service"
                  > > for people... to comfort
                  > > them and take away their
                  > > fears.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Klemp certainly gives Lip
                  > > Service to this claim:
                  > >
                  > > How do the teachings
                  > > of Eckankar help people?
                  > >
                  > > The most important
                  > > concept we need to
                  > > get across is the continuity
                  > > of life and going from
                  > > this world to the next
                  > > and beyond. People worry
                  > > most about meeting
                  > > the end of this life. [end]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Really? I disagree!
                  > >
                  > > Now, it could be that
                  > > Klemp is concerned with
                  > > death since he was born
                  > > in 1942. He's getting closer
                  > > and closer to the grave.
                  > >
                  > > And, I'm sure that many
                  > > from the Baby Boomer
                  > > generation (the generation
                  > > Klemp dislikes most) are
                  > > thinking more about their
                  > > health and the end of life.
                  > >
                  > > But there are those living
                  > > in politically unstable countries
                  > > who have more immediate
                  > > fears concerning day-to-
                  > > day life and freedoms.
                  > >
                  > > What many people
                  > > are concerned about,
                  > > here and now, in this
                  > > present time versus the
                  > > future is having enough
                  > > money to pay the bills in
                  > > order to continue and
                  > > maintain a healthy life
                  > > style. And, not being
                  > > alone and, thus, dying
                  > > alone is an important
                  > > issue too.
                  > >
                  > > Let's face it. People
                  > > need God more than
                  > > God needs them, unless,
                  > > you're Klemp... a false
                  > > God called Mahanta!
                  > >
                  > > Klemp needs his flock
                  > > of suckers. Even if HK
                  > > stepped aside for the
                  > > next conman to take
                  > > over he'd still be writing
                  > > his trashy books and
                  > > be posing as a God of
                  > > some sorts. Maybe he'd
                  > > move to some private
                  > > island and start rumors
                  > > that he had been reborn
                  > > as Rebazar had. Klemp
                  > > wants to continue the
                  > > myth to be remembered!
                  > >
                  > > Young people certainly
                  > > aren't concerned about
                  > > death... they're concerned
                  > > about finding a spouse,
                  > > and having a good job,
                  > > a place to live, and money
                  > > for more education and
                  > > a car, and gas.... maybe
                  > > a new computer or i-phone/
                  > > droid.
                  > >
                  > > In truth, HK is trying
                  > > to purge himself of
                  > > his Guilt for not only
                  > > having deficiencies
                  > > as a God/Master but
                  > > for his continued deceit.
                  > >
                  > > Consequently, he'll boost
                  > > his ego and self-important
                  > > image and, thus, feel
                  > > good hand important
                  > > that he's providing a
                  > > "spiritual" service for
                  > > the New Age segment
                  > > of the population who
                  > > are attracted to Eckankar's
                  > > (Twitchell's) Western
                  > > twist and edit of Radhasoami
                  > > and Ruhani Satsang.
                  > >
                  > > But, it (religion) is all
                  > > the same... just different
                  > > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
                  > > Eckankar is no exception!
                  > >
                  > > HK has millions squirreled
                  > > away in an off-shore
                  > > account so money and
                  > > financial security is not
                  > > a problem for him. Time
                  > > is Klemp's big enemy
                  > > and fear. That's why he
                  > > wants to be remembered
                  > > as being a great spiritual
                  > > master even though his
                  > > followers are deluded.
                  > >
                  > > Don't Eckists "worship"
                  > > Klemp, their Mahanta?
                  > > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
                  > > to trick them! But, he
                  > > sees it as being for their
                  > > own good... he's helping
                  > > them to find peace and
                  > > happiness without fear.
                  > > Eckists should believe
                  > > in themselves, as Soul,
                  > > and not give-up Soul's
                  > > authority to decide and
                  > > know. Initiations are
                  > > bogus anyway and are
                  > > simply used to dangle
                  > > in front of people....
                  > > that's the real "plus
                  > > element" in Eckankar.
                  > > There's Service, Coin,
                  > > Time, Promises of
                  > > Protection and Guidance
                  > > "plus" that next initiation!
                  > >
                  > > Look at the Spiritual
                  > > Exercises of EK that
                  > > are designed around
                  > > this purpose. Eckists
                  > > will dream of, contemplate
                  > > upon, and beseech
                  > > their God/Mahanta
                  > > for all sorts of things.
                  > >
                  > > These S.E.s are designed
                  > > for Eckists to see HK's
                  > > physical image don't
                  > > they? Thus, the Mahanta
                  > > brainwashing is reenforced
                  > > over and over on a daily
                  > > basis.
                  > >
                  > > And, this is why it's so
                  > > difficult to escape from
                  > > codependency. There
                  > > can never be real/truthful
                  > > "Spiritual Freedom" for
                  > > Eckists. They will always
                  > > need Klemp... he's their
                  > > crutch and their meth.
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  >
                • apollonius2k
                  Hi Prometheus, Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for being led astray by Eckankar. If you listen to the reasoning of today s Hi s
                  Message 8 of 12 , Feb 5, 2012
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                    Hi Prometheus,

                    Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for being led astray by Eckankar. If you listen to the reasoning of today's Hi's (well, the older ones anyway) as to why they still follow Eckankar, this rhetorical question will many times be heard as the answer, "Why throw the baby (Eckankar) out with the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)? I have never let HK "off the hook". He has had 30 years to set the record straight regarding Paul's made up hierarchy and writings, and is yet to do it. Also, It appears that he is bereft of spiritual experiences to write about as multiple times I caught him using my experiences and others in his HI teaching lessons.

                    In the early days we read and were told that the books and myth Paul Twitchell built was absolute truth. For me, there had been many prior years of extra-physical experiences including the blue and other lights dating back to when I was three years old. I really didn't care about the myth or the LEM so much as the wealth of research contained therein. How the concepts bounced around inside my little sphere of consciousness and took me to a different place. These ideas could be tried and discarded or kept as "My" individual truths.

                    As I rose through the ranks of Eckankar there was a peculiar thing that I noticed. The Mahdi were not practicing what they preached and it seemed like I was always in their cross hairs. This special attention and the energy they spewed uncontrolled, allowed me to become much stronger. There were many arguments that ensued all along the way, even with Darwin. My point was always that it is the individual path that counts, not the group or worship of a leader. If the LEM didn't know about me personally (which I discovered to be true the first time I met Darwin) then I was on my own.

                    Prometheus said,
                    >Yes, we all need to cut the
                    > ties to any and all religions.
                    > Religions are distortions
                    > of Truth that are designed
                    > around mass consumption.
                    >
                    > A group consciousness,
                    > and even that within a
                    > "circle of initiation," will
                    > always be lower or stunted
                    > than what the individual
                    > can/will achieve when free
                    > and unimpeded. Of course,
                    > all initiations, of any sort,
                    > are fraudulent!
                    >
                    > Consciousness is not handed
                    > out by a demigod and printed
                    > on an EK membership card.

                    Agreed

                    To my knowledge, Rumi couched his verbiage in the terms of the day. According to what I have researched, Rumi's teacher Shamsi was murdered for blasphemy against Islam.

                    Though I can honestly say I never met any of Paul Twitchell's masters (and I doubt he did either) there have been times in my life when a "helper" appeared out of nowhere and guided me in a new direction with new ideas to think about. Whether I call them masters or any other term is irrelevant to me, they assisted my path and that's all that was needed.


                    Cheers,

                    Apollonius

                    ---
                  • prometheus_973
                    Hello Apollonius and All, I ll respond to your comments below. apollonius wrote: Hi Prometheus, Many, and rightfully so, have strong feelings of resentment for
                    Message 9 of 12 , Feb 6, 2012
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                      Hello Apollonius and All,
                      I'll respond to your
                      comments below.

                      apollonius wrote:
                      Hi Prometheus,

                      Many, and rightfully so,
                      have strong feelings of
                      resentment for being led
                      astray by Eckankar.

                      If you listen to the reasoning
                      of today's Hi's (well, the
                      older ones anyway) as to
                      why they still follow Eckankar,
                      this rhetorical question
                      will many times be heard
                      as the answer, "Why throw
                      the baby (Eckankar) out with
                      the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)?

                      I have never let HK "off the
                      hook". He has had 30 years
                      to set the record straight
                      regarding Paul's made up
                      hierarchy and writings, and
                      is yet to do it. Also, It appears
                      that he is bereft of spiritual
                      experiences to write about
                      as multiple times I caught
                      him using my experiences
                      and others in his HI teaching
                      lessons.



                      *****************************
                      ME: The truth as to why longtime
                      H.I.s have remained in Eckankar
                      has nothing to do with Truth. It's
                      all about fear and ego! They fear
                      not having their EK friends and
                      family members in their lives but,
                      also, not having their admirers.
                      Plus, look at all of that time and
                      money they have invested and
                      the initiations they've received.
                      Many were "grandfathered" in
                      without having to jump through
                      the hoops that HK requires today.
                      Besides, there's always the hope
                      of getting that 8th or 9th Outer
                      initiation. This is why the "baby"
                      isn't thrown out with the dirty
                      bath water... and why the bath
                      water is used over and over,
                      again and again.
                      ******************************


                      In the early days we read and
                      were told that the books and
                      myth Paul Twitchell built was
                      absolute truth. For me, there
                      had been many prior years of
                      extra-physical experiences
                      including the blue and other
                      lights dating back to when I
                      was three years old. I really
                      didn't care about the myth or
                      the LEM so much as the wealth
                      of research contained therein.
                      How the concepts bounced
                      around inside my little sphere
                      of consciousness and took me
                      to a different place. These ideas
                      could be tried and discarded
                      or kept as "My" individual
                      truths.



                      ****************************
                      ME: Twitchell, as a conman,
                      learned that many people
                      have many things in common.
                      Everyone dreams. And if one
                      places attention upon the
                      mysteries and myth of the
                      spiritual realm they will dream
                      and "see" things. I'm not
                      saying that your experiences,
                      especially, as a child weren't
                      real, but I also know that
                      parents and adults can
                      mess with what a child thinks
                      is real. Sometimes it's done
                      out of "fun" by a somewhat
                      deviant parent or relative.
                      Sometimes, the fun is more
                      of a cultural/religious thing
                      like with Santa Claus or the
                      Easter Bunny.
                      *****************************


                      As I rose through the
                      ranks of Eckankar there
                      was a peculiar thing that
                      I noticed. The Mahdi were
                      not practicing what they
                      preached and it seemed
                      like I was always in their
                      cross hairs. This special
                      attention and the energy
                      they spewed uncontrolled,
                      allowed me to become
                      much stronger. There
                      were many arguments
                      that ensued all along the
                      way, even with Darwin.
                      My point was always
                      that it is the individual
                      path that counts, not the
                      group or worship of a
                      leader. If the LEM didn't
                      know about me personally
                      (which I discovered to be
                      true the first time I met
                      Darwin) then I was on my
                      own.


                      ***************************
                      ME: Yes, there's a lot of
                      ego associated with being
                      an H.I. (leader). Ego was
                      always rationalized away
                      and looked upon as a
                      "teaching tool" or as a "coat"
                      that could be put on and
                      taken off. It wasn't true
                      but it did help to explain
                      away the personality changes.
                      I know that when I was at
                      ECK events, in leadership
                      roles, I almost always came
                      across as being serious.
                      I knew that I was being
                      watched and evaluated
                      and had to be careful to
                      portray myself well. I, also,
                      had to be cognizant of the
                      proper procedures to follow
                      which are spelled out in
                      the "Guidelines." All of
                      this was quite stressful.
                      Why? Because I saw first
                      hand what could happen
                      to those who fell out-of-
                      grace with the RESA.

                      Yes, Klemp wouldn't know
                      anything about his H.I.s,
                      either, if it wasn't for the
                      reports his RESAs send to
                      the ESC. Everyone has a
                      file and black marks and
                      red flags can have initiations
                      and positions put on a
                      three-five year (or longer)
                      hold. Sometimes there are
                      things put into your ESC
                      file and sometimes it's
                      just that one RESA.
                      ******************************
                      MORE COMMENTS BELOW
                      ******************************

                      Prometheus said,
                      >Yes, we all need to cut the
                      > ties to any and all religions.
                      > Religions are distortions
                      > of Truth that are designed
                      > around mass consumption.
                      >
                      > A group consciousness,
                      > and even that within a
                      > "circle of initiation," will
                      > always be lower or stunted
                      > than what the individual
                      > can/will achieve when free
                      > and unimpeded. Of course,
                      > all initiations, of any sort,
                      > are fraudulent!
                      >
                      > Consciousness is not handed
                      > out by a demigod and printed
                      > on an EK membership card.

                      Agreed

                      To my knowledge, Rumi
                      couched his verbiage
                      in the terms of the day.
                      According to what I have
                      researched, Rumi's teacher
                      Shamsi was murdered
                      for blasphemy against
                      Islam.


                      ****************************
                      ME: It's usually thought that
                      Rumi's companions killed Shams
                      because they were jealous of
                      him. After all, much of Rumi's
                      poetry was inspired by the love
                      he had for his friend and master.....
                      Shams.

                      However, Shams was Sunni.
                      So, it could be that he was
                      murdered by the more orthodox
                      Shiites. IMO-Only a Shiite would
                      say that Shams (a Sunni) was
                      blasphemous.
                      ********************************

                      Though I can honestly say
                      I never met any of Paul
                      Twitchell's masters (and
                      I doubt he did either) there
                      have been times in my
                      life when a "helper" appeared
                      out of nowhere and guided
                      me in a new direction with
                      new ideas to think about.
                      Whether I call them masters
                      or any other term is irrelevant
                      to me, they assisted my path
                      and that's all that was needed.

                      ******************************
                      ME: I, too, have had experiences
                      throughout life where it seemed
                      I was being protected (mostly from
                      myself) or was receiving guidance.
                      Early on, Jesus would appear to
                      me. I was a seeker and always
                      seemed to be beseeching some
                      spiritual authority for answers/
                      guidance. But most people do
                      the same! That's how/why the
                      gods were created and, one reason,
                      as to why religion was created.
                      The other reasons for religions
                      is to control the masses by
                      alleviating their fears and giving
                      hope of a better, pain free, afterlife.
                      Plus, it's a money maker for those
                      at the top of the hierarchy.


                      Anyway, it was no surprise to
                      see "EK Masters" in my dreams.
                      It's funny that Eckankar validates
                      itself with a handful of testimonials
                      from people (innocent newbies)
                      who claim they met a certain EK
                      Master "prior" to joining Eckankar!
                      It's kind of like (not really) St. Paul's
                      experience with seeing Jesus while
                      on the road to Damascus. Except
                      Paul/Saul was blinded for three
                      days. Hey, is that, and the Trinity,
                      how Paul came up with/invented
                      the, superstitious, EK Principle
                      of the Threes?
                      *********************************


                      Cheers,

                      Apollonius
                    • Russ Rodnick
                      I won t disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.   experiences
                      Message 10 of 12 , Feb 7, 2012
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                        I won't disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.
                         
                        experiences further are phenomenal. I do not recommend believing that these are signs of knowing what truth is. they point the way in my opinion to something which is deeper, and more complete.
                         
                        But too the veracity of one's teachers cannot be questioned. and if these teachers are merely unconscous transmitters of ideas that they do not really understand themselves and not understanding misuse these ideas to gratify their own egos howver sweet these egotistical liars are you as the sincere student would probably be able to use these methods and ascertain some truths but how deeply and completely and why would you want to stay in Eckankar after looking behind the curtain?
                        I worry that phenomena can give a false security and Eckankar gives plenty of false security.
                         
                        I used to think compromising thoughts too, and for some it might prove to be a good. but it is a trap too. That's the thing I would be caution about.
                         
                        The search for meaning and truth is all important to me. Deeper realization of being is possible with an independant attitude. Study of the self, being and personality.
                         
                        Anyway, truth is not easy though sometimes it seems so, in my experience.
                        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 11:35 PM
                        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

                         
                        Hello Apollonius and All,
                        I'm not wrong. One cannot
                        find enlightenment via the
                        the false teachings of Eckankar.
                        It's called delusional, wishful,
                        and magical thinking.

                        However, it's possible that
                        one might find enlightenment
                        despite Eckankar and by seeing
                        the truth about Eckankar and
                        that of all religions and group
                        manmade dogmas. Man created
                        God in man's image and man
                        created religion as well. Women
                        created mankind, but men still
                        won't give them credit! LOL!

                        As for the Blue Light thingie.
                        That's something that many
                        people will see irregardless of
                        Eckankar. It's been proven and
                        written about and that's how
                        PT found it. He stole everything
                        and probably never had an
                        original thought worth anything.

                        Remember, the liar Twitchell
                        didn't create the Mahanta or
                        the Blue Light of the Mahanta
                        until Jan. 1969. This has been
                        proven via past Wisdom Notes.

                        Yes, I too knew Helen and
                        Millie (Workman) Moore.
                        Did you, too, go to HK's
                        Satsang class with Helen
                        across the desert of LV?

                        Just because you had a
                        personal spiritual experience
                        and connect that to some
                        of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
                        same charismatic conman,
                        doesn't mean you should
                        give Klemp a free pass. He's
                        done much more harm than
                        good by making Eckists
                        codependent upon him.

                        The lies do matter!

                        If you haven't figured that out
                        you're as deluded as the rest.

                        That one experience you had,
                        long ago, was probably "caused"
                        by your belief in Eckankar and
                        influenced by other people and
                        the nature of the situation. All
                        of you were looking/seeking for
                        something, a sign, and a feeling
                        and it's what you and your mental
                        impressions created/deciphered
                        and found.

                        I'm not saying that we don't
                        or can't have real spiritual
                        experiences. But, when we
                        do it certainly isn't because
                        of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
                        belief and person are not
                        spiritual conduits! Just the
                        opposite! Belief in Eckankar
                        and in "the Mahanta" will
                        only produce deluding Astral
                        experiences which appear
                        greater and "spiritual" in
                        the mind's eye!

                        I, too, have experienced
                        sounds like running water,
                        thunder, buzzing bees,
                        violins and flutes with
                        blue, yellow, golden and
                        bright white lights and
                        more! So what! That's
                        merely the phenomenal
                        world! Much was experienced
                        prior to, some during,
                        and even greater things
                        after Eckankar!

                        If you believe in the KAL,
                        then, deceivers and liars
                        who misrepresent truth
                        are of the KAL.

                        Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
                        and Klemp with their distortions
                        and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
                        and Ruhani Satsang would be of
                        the KAL because they have taken
                        upon themselves to use the trickster
                        trappings and characteristics of KAL.

                        But, all religions are of the KAL
                        or Satan. These religions that
                        Twitchell stole dogma from are
                        just as deceitful and off the mark
                        spiritually.

                        What Eckankar is selling and
                        what you are receiving is not
                        Truth! If you don't understand
                        the ramifications of this, then,
                        you are as deluded and lost as
                        they are. Enjoy your peyote!

                        Prometheus
                        BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
                        This was who he prayed to and
                        wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
                        have been all that enlightened. Mo
                        wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
                        Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
                        "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
                        physical plane is of the "ECK" too
                        correct?

                        apollonius wrote:
                        Greetings Prometheus and all,

                        I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
                        disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
                        Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
                        However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
                        Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
                        realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
                        part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
                        by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
                        flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
                        magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

                        The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
                        professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
                        thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
                        know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
                        me comfort.

                        Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
                        making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
                        have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
                        Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
                        this day.

                        Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
                        own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
                        do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
                        with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
                        recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
                        advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
                        allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

                        Keep up the good work,

                        From the Heart,

                        Apollonius

                        >
                        > It's interesting to see
                        > and hear what the religious
                        > tricksters and conmen
                        > come up with in order
                        > to rationalize their guilt
                        > away. They will claim to
                        > be providing a "service"
                        > for people... to comfort
                        > them and take away their
                        > fears.
                        >
                        >
                        > Klemp certainly gives Lip
                        > Service to this claim:
                        >
                        > How do the teachings
                        > of Eckankar help people?
                        >
                        > The most important
                        > concept we need to
                        > get across is the continuity
                        > of life and going from
                        > this world to the next
                        > and beyond. People worry
                        > most about meeting
                        > the end of this life. [end]
                        >
                        >
                        > Really? I disagree!
                        >
                        > Now, it could be that
                        > Klemp is concerned with
                        > death since he was born
                        > in 1942. He's getting closer
                        > and closer to the grave.
                        >
                        > And, I'm sure that many
                        > from the Baby Boomer
                        > generation (the generation
                        > Klemp dislikes most) are
                        > thinking more about their
                        > health and the end of life.
                        >
                        > But there are those living
                        > in politically unstable countries
                        > who have more immediate
                        > fears concerning day-to-
                        > day life and freedoms.
                        >
                        > What many people
                        > are concerned about,
                        > here and now, in this
                        > present time versus the
                        > future is having enough
                        > money to pay the bills in
                        > order to continue and
                        > maintain a healthy life
                        > style. And, not being
                        > alone and, thus, dying
                        > alone is an important
                        > issue too.
                        >
                        > Let's face it. People
                        > need God more than
                        > God needs them, unless,
                        > you're Klemp... a false
                        > God called Mahanta!
                        >
                        > Klemp needs his flock
                        > of suckers. Even if HK
                        > stepped aside for the
                        > next conman to take
                        > over he'd still be writing
                        > his trashy books and
                        > be posing as a God of
                        > some sorts. Maybe he'd
                        > move to some private
                        > island and start rumors
                        > that he had been reborn
                        > as Rebazar had. Klemp
                        > wants to continue the
                        > myth to be remembered!
                        >
                        > Young people certainly
                        > aren't concerned about
                        > death... they're concerned
                        > about finding a spouse,
                        > and having a good job,
                        > a place to live, and money
                        > for more education and
                        > a car, and gas.... maybe
                        > a new computer or i-phone/
                        > droid.
                        >
                        > In truth, HK is trying
                        > to purge himself of
                        > his Guilt for not only
                        > having deficiencies
                        > as a God/Master but
                        > for his continued deceit.
                        >
                        > Consequently, he'll boost
                        > his ego and self-important
                        > image and, thus, feel
                        > good hand important
                        > that he's providing a
                        > "spiritual" service for
                        > the New Age segment
                        > of the population who
                        > are attracted to Eckankar's
                        > (Twitchell's) Western
                        > twist and edit of Radhasoami
                        > and Ruhani Satsang.
                        >
                        > But, it (religion) is all
                        > the same... just different
                        > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
                        > Eckankar is no exception!
                        >
                        > HK has millions squirreled
                        > away in an off-shore
                        > account so money and
                        > financial security is not
                        > a problem for him. Time
                        > is Klemp's big enemy
                        > and fear. That's why he
                        > wants to be remembered
                        > as being a great spiritual
                        > master even though his
                        > followers are deluded.
                        >
                        > Don't Eckists "worship"
                        > Klemp, their Mahanta?
                        > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
                        > to trick them! But, he
                        > sees it as being for their
                        > own good... he's helping
                        > them to find peace and
                        > happiness without fear.
                        > Eckists should believe
                        > in themselves, as Soul,
                        > and not give-up Soul's
                        > authority to decide and
                        > know. Initiations are
                        > bogus anyway and are
                        > simply used to dangle
                        > in front of people....
                        > that's the real "plus
                        > element" in Eckankar.
                        > There's Service, Coin,
                        > Time, Promises of
                        > Protection and Guidance
                        > "plus" that next initiation!
                        >
                        > Look at the Spiritual
                        > Exercises of EK that
                        > are designed around
                        > this purpose. Eckists
                        > will dream of, contemplate
                        > upon, and beseech
                        > their God/Mahanta
                        > for all sorts of things.
                        >
                        > These S.E.s are designed
                        > for Eckists to see HK's
                        > physical image don't
                        > they? Thus, the Mahanta
                        > brainwashing is reenforced
                        > over and over on a daily
                        > basis.
                        >
                        > And, this is why it's so
                        > difficult to escape from
                        > codependency. There
                        > can never be real/truthful
                        > "Spiritual Freedom" for
                        > Eckists. They will always
                        > need Klemp... he's their
                        > crutch and their meth.
                        >
                        > Prometheus



                      • Janice Pfeiffer
                        I did a lot of self discovery and study of various kinds of spiritual paths before I ever heard of eckankar.  It didn t prevent me from being suckered in. 
                        Message 11 of 12 , Feb 7, 2012
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                          I did a lot of self discovery and study of various kinds of spiritual paths before I ever heard of eckankar.  It didn't prevent me from being suckered in.  Further more, I didn't see the truth until  I was told by an actual HI how things really happened with initiations.  I don't know why he told me except he felt some compassion for my confusion and some how knew I needed real answers instead of more eck jargon.  At this point, I don't see any sense in blaming others who were mislead no matter how they performed as eckist or how they are handling their past associations with eckankar now.  You do become brain washed and it takes a lot of will power to give it up.   Eckankar is a world unto itself.  It is the perpetrators and those in Minneapolis who are keeping the deception going.  If any one feels a need to express their anger in any way, I feel it is best placed on the so called leaders of eckankar.  jepfeiffer

                          --- On Tue, 2/7/12, Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...> wrote:

                          From: Russ Rodnick <russrodnick@...>
                          Subject: Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud
                          To: "EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com" <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                          Date: Tuesday, February 7, 2012, 10:41 PM

                           
                          I won't disagree concerning your enlightening experiences and I am sure too that even in Eckankar some people find these type of experiences.
                           
                          experiences further are phenomenal. I do not recommend believing that these are signs of knowing what truth is. they point the way in my opinion to something which is deeper, and more complete.
                           
                          But too the veracity of one's teachers cannot be questioned. and if these teachers are merely unconscous transmitters of ideas that they do not really understand themselves and not understanding misuse these ideas to gratify their own egos howver sweet these egotistical liars are you as the sincere student would probably be able to use these methods and ascertain some truths but how deeply and completely and why would you want to stay in Eckankar after looking behind the curtain?
                          I worry that phenomena can give a false security and Eckankar gives plenty of false security.
                           
                          I used to think compromising thoughts too, and for some it might prove to be a good. but it is a trap too. That's the thing I would be caution about.
                           
                          The search for meaning and truth is all important to me. Deeper realization of being is possible with an independant attitude. Study of the self, being and personality.
                           
                          Anyway, truth is not easy though sometimes it seems so, in my experience.
                          From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, February 4, 2012 11:35 PM
                          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Rationalizes His Fraud

                           
                          Hello Apollonius and All,
                          I'm not wrong. One cannot
                          find enlightenment via the
                          the false teachings of Eckankar.
                          It's called delusional, wishful,
                          and magical thinking.

                          However, it's possible that
                          one might find enlightenment
                          despite Eckankar and by seeing
                          the truth about Eckankar and
                          that of all religions and group
                          manmade dogmas. Man created
                          God in man's image and man
                          created religion as well. Women
                          created mankind, but men still
                          won't give them credit! LOL!

                          As for the Blue Light thingie.
                          That's something that many
                          people will see irregardless of
                          Eckankar. It's been proven and
                          written about and that's how
                          PT found it. He stole everything
                          and probably never had an
                          original thought worth anything.

                          Remember, the liar Twitchell
                          didn't create the Mahanta or
                          the Blue Light of the Mahanta
                          until Jan. 1969. This has been
                          proven via past Wisdom Notes.

                          Yes, I too knew Helen and
                          Millie (Workman) Moore.
                          Did you, too, go to HK's
                          Satsang class with Helen
                          across the desert of LV?

                          Just because you had a
                          personal spiritual experience
                          and connect that to some
                          of PT's H.I.s, tricked by this
                          same charismatic conman,
                          doesn't mean you should
                          give Klemp a free pass. He's
                          done much more harm than
                          good by making Eckists
                          codependent upon him.

                          The lies do matter!

                          If you haven't figured that out
                          you're as deluded as the rest.

                          That one experience you had,
                          long ago, was probably "caused"
                          by your belief in Eckankar and
                          influenced by other people and
                          the nature of the situation. All
                          of you were looking/seeking for
                          something, a sign, and a feeling
                          and it's what you and your mental
                          impressions created/deciphered
                          and found.

                          I'm not saying that we don't
                          or can't have real spiritual
                          experiences. But, when we
                          do it certainly isn't because
                          of Eckankar, or Klemp. This
                          belief and person are not
                          spiritual conduits! Just the
                          opposite! Belief in Eckankar
                          and in "the Mahanta" will
                          only produce deluding Astral
                          experiences which appear
                          greater and "spiritual" in
                          the mind's eye!

                          I, too, have experienced
                          sounds like running water,
                          thunder, buzzing bees,
                          violins and flutes with
                          blue, yellow, golden and
                          bright white lights and
                          more! So what! That's
                          merely the phenomenal
                          world! Much was experienced
                          prior to, some during,
                          and even greater things
                          after Eckankar!

                          If you believe in the KAL,
                          then, deceivers and liars
                          who misrepresent truth
                          are of the KAL.

                          Therefore, as you said, Twitchell
                          and Klemp with their distortions
                          and plagiarisms of Radhasoami
                          and Ruhani Satsang would be of
                          the KAL because they have taken
                          upon themselves to use the trickster
                          trappings and characteristics of KAL.

                          But, all religions are of the KAL
                          or Satan. These religions that
                          Twitchell stole dogma from are
                          just as deceitful and off the mark
                          spiritually.

                          What Eckankar is selling and
                          what you are receiving is not
                          Truth! If you don't understand
                          the ramifications of this, then,
                          you are as deluded and lost as
                          they are. Enjoy your peyote!

                          Prometheus
                          BTW- RUMI worshipped Muhammad.
                          This was who he prayed to and
                          wrote poems to. Thus, he couldn't
                          have been all that enlightened. Mo
                          wasn't a very nice guy. And, even
                          Twitchell said Rumi was merely a
                          "follower" of ECK. Of course, the
                          physical plane is of the "ECK" too
                          correct?

                          apollonius wrote:
                          Greetings Prometheus and all,

                          I have read with great interest your postings over the years. I must however
                          disagree with your hypothesis that Spiritual Freedom can never be reached in
                          Eckankar. In 1973 when I joined Eckankar it was accepted that the LEM was GOD.
                          However that year, Helen Frye, Pat Henderson and Charlie Wallace (later Millie
                          Moore and Helen Baird) took me under their wings and mentored me to a better
                          realization. It was, they said, "The Sound current that was the MOST important
                          part of the students growth, not a Master or even a LEM". It was when sleeping
                          by Oak creek in Helen's front yard that I first heard the single note of the
                          flute above the flowing waters of Oak Creek, Sedona. A most
                          magical/Mystical/Real occurrence I can assure you.

                          The ECK/Battica/Spirit had appeared to me earlier in life while touring as a
                          professional performer in the 1960's. Each night on stage I looked out to the
                          thousands in attendance and saw a blue haze/light surrounding all. I did not
                          know what this was until much later, but I knew at the time that this light gave
                          me comfort.

                          Because of this one realization I will never criticize Paul/Harold/Eckankar for
                          making up names and using other paths' verbiage. It just doesn't matter once you
                          have/hear the true sound current as I did those many years ago sleeping in
                          Helen's front yard. IT set me free for all my 33 years in Eckankar and beyond to
                          this day.

                          Everything depends on the individual creating their own universe. "Unfold your
                          own Myth" as Rumi said. The teachings do give you the tools but can't actually
                          do it for you despite any claims to the contrary. It is absolutely what YOU do
                          with the tools that makes for spiritual advancement, not any initiations or
                          recognition from the physical org called Eckankar. Spiritual
                          advancement/realization is not hindered by any physical org or person unless you
                          allow it. No one can be conned if they are sincere in the light and sound.

                          Keep up the good work,

                          From the Heart,

                          Apollonius

                          >
                          > It's interesting to see
                          > and hear what the religious
                          > tricksters and conmen
                          > come up with in order
                          > to rationalize their guilt
                          > away. They will claim to
                          > be providing a "service"
                          > for people... to comfort
                          > them and take away their
                          > fears.
                          >
                          >
                          > Klemp certainly gives Lip
                          > Service to this claim:
                          >
                          > How do the teachings
                          > of Eckankar help people?
                          >
                          > The most important
                          > concept we need to
                          > get across is the continuity
                          > of life and going from
                          > this world to the next
                          > and beyond. People worry
                          > most about meeting
                          > the end of this life. [end]
                          >
                          >
                          > Really? I disagree!
                          >
                          > Now, it could be that
                          > Klemp is concerned with
                          > death since he was born
                          > in 1942. He's getting closer
                          > and closer to the grave.
                          >
                          > And, I'm sure that many
                          > from the Baby Boomer
                          > generation (the generation
                          > Klemp dislikes most) are
                          > thinking more about their
                          > health and the end of life.
                          >
                          > But there are those living
                          > in politically unstable countries
                          > who have more immediate
                          > fears concerning day-to-
                          > day life and freedoms.
                          >
                          > What many people
                          > are concerned about,
                          > here and now, in this
                          > present time versus the
                          > future is having enough
                          > money to pay the bills in
                          > order to continue and
                          > maintain a healthy life
                          > style. And, not being
                          > alone and, thus, dying
                          > alone is an important
                          > issue too.
                          >
                          > Let's face it. People
                          > need God more than
                          > God needs them, unless,
                          > you're Klemp... a false
                          > God called Mahanta!
                          >
                          > Klemp needs his flock
                          > of suckers. Even if HK
                          > stepped aside for the
                          > next conman to take
                          > over he'd still be writing
                          > his trashy books and
                          > be posing as a God of
                          > some sorts. Maybe he'd
                          > move to some private
                          > island and start rumors
                          > that he had been reborn
                          > as Rebazar had. Klemp
                          > wants to continue the
                          > myth to be remembered!
                          >
                          > Young people certainly
                          > aren't concerned about
                          > death... they're concerned
                          > about finding a spouse,
                          > and having a good job,
                          > a place to live, and money
                          > for more education and
                          > a car, and gas.... maybe
                          > a new computer or i-phone/
                          > droid.
                          >
                          > In truth, HK is trying
                          > to purge himself of
                          > his Guilt for not only
                          > having deficiencies
                          > as a God/Master but
                          > for his continued deceit.
                          >
                          > Consequently, he'll boost
                          > his ego and self-important
                          > image and, thus, feel
                          > good hand important
                          > that he's providing a
                          > "spiritual" service for
                          > the New Age segment
                          > of the population who
                          > are attracted to Eckankar's
                          > (Twitchell's) Western
                          > twist and edit of Radhasoami
                          > and Ruhani Satsang.
                          >
                          > But, it (religion) is all
                          > the same... just different
                          > dogma and jargon. Klemp's
                          > Eckankar is no exception!
                          >
                          > HK has millions squirreled
                          > away in an off-shore
                          > account so money and
                          > financial security is not
                          > a problem for him. Time
                          > is Klemp's big enemy
                          > and fear. That's why he
                          > wants to be remembered
                          > as being a great spiritual
                          > master even though his
                          > followers are deluded.
                          >
                          > Don't Eckists "worship"
                          > Klemp, their Mahanta?
                          > Sure! That's Klemp's plan
                          > to trick them! But, he
                          > sees it as being for their
                          > own good... he's helping
                          > them to find peace and
                          > happiness without fear.
                          > Eckists should believe
                          > in themselves, as Soul,
                          > and not give-up Soul's
                          > authority to decide and
                          > know. Initiations are
                          > bogus anyway and are
                          > simply used to dangle
                          > in front of people....
                          > that's the real "plus
                          > element" in Eckankar.
                          > There's Service, Coin,
                          > Time, Promises of
                          > Protection and Guidance
                          > "plus" that next initiation!
                          >
                          > Look at the Spiritual
                          > Exercises of EK that
                          > are designed around
                          > this purpose. Eckists
                          > will dream of, contemplate
                          > upon, and beseech
                          > their God/Mahanta
                          > for all sorts of things.
                          >
                          > These S.E.s are designed
                          > for Eckists to see HK's
                          > physical image don't
                          > they? Thus, the Mahanta
                          > brainwashing is reenforced
                          > over and over on a daily
                          > basis.
                          >
                          > And, this is why it's so
                          > difficult to escape from
                          > codependency. There
                          > can never be real/truthful
                          > "Spiritual Freedom" for
                          > Eckists. They will always
                          > need Klemp... he's their
                          > crutch and their meth.
                          >
                          > Prometheus



                        • apollonius2k
                          Good points Prometheus!
                          Message 12 of 12 , Feb 8, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Good points Prometheus!

                            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hello Apollonius and All,
                            > I'll respond to your
                            > comments below.
                            >
                            > apollonius wrote:
                            > Hi Prometheus,
                            >
                            > Many, and rightfully so,
                            > have strong feelings of
                            > resentment for being led
                            > astray by Eckankar.
                            >
                            > If you listen to the reasoning
                            > of today's Hi's (well, the
                            > older ones anyway) as to
                            > why they still follow Eckankar,
                            > this rhetorical question
                            > will many times be heard
                            > as the answer, "Why throw
                            > the baby (Eckankar) out with
                            > the bath water (Paul/HK's myth)?
                            >
                            > I have never let HK "off the
                            > hook". He has had 30 years
                            > to set the record straight
                            > regarding Paul's made up
                            > hierarchy and writings, and
                            > is yet to do it. Also, It appears
                            > that he is bereft of spiritual
                            > experiences to write about
                            > as multiple times I caught
                            > him using my experiences
                            > and others in his HI teaching
                            > lessons.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > *****************************
                            > ME: The truth as to why longtime
                            > H.I.s have remained in Eckankar
                            > has nothing to do with Truth. It's
                            > all about fear and ego! They fear
                            > not having their EK friends and
                            > family members in their lives but,
                            > also, not having their admirers.
                            > Plus, look at all of that time and
                            > money they have invested and
                            > the initiations they've received.
                            > Many were "grandfathered" in
                            > without having to jump through
                            > the hoops that HK requires today.
                            > Besides, there's always the hope
                            > of getting that 8th or 9th Outer
                            > initiation. This is why the "baby"
                            > isn't thrown out with the dirty
                            > bath water... and why the bath
                            > water is used over and over,
                            > again and again.
                            > ******************************
                            >
                            >
                            > In the early days we read and
                            > were told that the books and
                            > myth Paul Twitchell built was
                            > absolute truth. For me, there
                            > had been many prior years of
                            > extra-physical experiences
                            > including the blue and other
                            > lights dating back to when I
                            > was three years old. I really
                            > didn't care about the myth or
                            > the LEM so much as the wealth
                            > of research contained therein.
                            > How the concepts bounced
                            > around inside my little sphere
                            > of consciousness and took me
                            > to a different place. These ideas
                            > could be tried and discarded
                            > or kept as "My" individual
                            > truths.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ****************************
                            > ME: Twitchell, as a conman,
                            > learned that many people
                            > have many things in common.
                            > Everyone dreams. And if one
                            > places attention upon the
                            > mysteries and myth of the
                            > spiritual realm they will dream
                            > and "see" things. I'm not
                            > saying that your experiences,
                            > especially, as a child weren't
                            > real, but I also know that
                            > parents and adults can
                            > mess with what a child thinks
                            > is real. Sometimes it's done
                            > out of "fun" by a somewhat
                            > deviant parent or relative.
                            > Sometimes, the fun is more
                            > of a cultural/religious thing
                            > like with Santa Claus or the
                            > Easter Bunny.
                            > *****************************
                            >
                            >
                            > As I rose through the
                            > ranks of Eckankar there
                            > was a peculiar thing that
                            > I noticed. The Mahdi were
                            > not practicing what they
                            > preached and it seemed
                            > like I was always in their
                            > cross hairs. This special
                            > attention and the energy
                            > they spewed uncontrolled,
                            > allowed me to become
                            > much stronger. There
                            > were many arguments
                            > that ensued all along the
                            > way, even with Darwin.
                            > My point was always
                            > that it is the individual
                            > path that counts, not the
                            > group or worship of a
                            > leader. If the LEM didn't
                            > know about me personally
                            > (which I discovered to be
                            > true the first time I met
                            > Darwin) then I was on my
                            > own.
                            >
                            >
                            > ***************************
                            > ME: Yes, there's a lot of
                            > ego associated with being
                            > an H.I. (leader). Ego was
                            > always rationalized away
                            > and looked upon as a
                            > "teaching tool" or as a "coat"
                            > that could be put on and
                            > taken off. It wasn't true
                            > but it did help to explain
                            > away the personality changes.
                            > I know that when I was at
                            > ECK events, in leadership
                            > roles, I almost always came
                            > across as being serious.
                            > I knew that I was being
                            > watched and evaluated
                            > and had to be careful to
                            > portray myself well. I, also,
                            > had to be cognizant of the
                            > proper procedures to follow
                            > which are spelled out in
                            > the "Guidelines." All of
                            > this was quite stressful.
                            > Why? Because I saw first
                            > hand what could happen
                            > to those who fell out-of-
                            > grace with the RESA.
                            >
                            > Yes, Klemp wouldn't know
                            > anything about his H.I.s,
                            > either, if it wasn't for the
                            > reports his RESAs send to
                            > the ESC. Everyone has a
                            > file and black marks and
                            > red flags can have initiations
                            > and positions put on a
                            > three-five year (or longer)
                            > hold. Sometimes there are
                            > things put into your ESC
                            > file and sometimes it's
                            > just that one RESA.
                            > ******************************
                            > MORE COMMENTS BELOW
                            > ******************************
                            >
                            > Prometheus said,
                            > >Yes, we all need to cut the
                            > > ties to any and all religions.
                            > > Religions are distortions
                            > > of Truth that are designed
                            > > around mass consumption.
                            > >
                            > > A group consciousness,
                            > > and even that within a
                            > > "circle of initiation," will
                            > > always be lower or stunted
                            > > than what the individual
                            > > can/will achieve when free
                            > > and unimpeded. Of course,
                            > > all initiations, of any sort,
                            > > are fraudulent!
                            > >
                            > > Consciousness is not handed
                            > > out by a demigod and printed
                            > > on an EK membership card.
                            >
                            > Agreed
                            >
                            > To my knowledge, Rumi
                            > couched his verbiage
                            > in the terms of the day.
                            > According to what I have
                            > researched, Rumi's teacher
                            > Shamsi was murdered
                            > for blasphemy against
                            > Islam.
                            >
                            >
                            > ****************************
                            > ME: It's usually thought that
                            > Rumi's companions killed Shams
                            > because they were jealous of
                            > him. After all, much of Rumi's
                            > poetry was inspired by the love
                            > he had for his friend and master.....
                            > Shams.
                            >
                            > However, Shams was Sunni.
                            > So, it could be that he was
                            > murdered by the more orthodox
                            > Shiites. IMO-Only a Shiite would
                            > say that Shams (a Sunni) was
                            > blasphemous.
                            > ********************************
                            >
                            > Though I can honestly say
                            > I never met any of Paul
                            > Twitchell's masters (and
                            > I doubt he did either) there
                            > have been times in my
                            > life when a "helper" appeared
                            > out of nowhere and guided
                            > me in a new direction with
                            > new ideas to think about.
                            > Whether I call them masters
                            > or any other term is irrelevant
                            > to me, they assisted my path
                            > and that's all that was needed.
                            >
                            > ******************************
                            > ME: I, too, have had experiences
                            > throughout life where it seemed
                            > I was being protected (mostly from
                            > myself) or was receiving guidance.
                            > Early on, Jesus would appear to
                            > me. I was a seeker and always
                            > seemed to be beseeching some
                            > spiritual authority for answers/
                            > guidance. But most people do
                            > the same! That's how/why the
                            > gods were created and, one reason,
                            > as to why religion was created.
                            > The other reasons for religions
                            > is to control the masses by
                            > alleviating their fears and giving
                            > hope of a better, pain free, afterlife.
                            > Plus, it's a money maker for those
                            > at the top of the hierarchy.
                            >
                            >
                            > Anyway, it was no surprise to
                            > see "EK Masters" in my dreams.
                            > It's funny that Eckankar validates
                            > itself with a handful of testimonials
                            > from people (innocent newbies)
                            > who claim they met a certain EK
                            > Master "prior" to joining Eckankar!
                            > It's kind of like (not really) St. Paul's
                            > experience with seeing Jesus while
                            > on the road to Damascus. Except
                            > Paul/Saul was blinded for three
                            > days. Hey, is that, and the Trinity,
                            > how Paul came up with/invented
                            > the, superstitious, EK Principle
                            > of the Threes?
                            > *********************************
                            >
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            >
                            > Apollonius
                            >
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