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I'm Surprised That Klemp (ECKankar) Isn't Suing Them!

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello All, Just Google: Living SRAOSHA Master and the site comes up. This guy copied Paul s God World Chart, which was copied and plagiarized info, and then
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 10, 2012
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      Hello All,
      Just Google: Living SRAOSHA
      Master and the site comes up.

      This guy copied Paul's God
      World Chart, which was copied
      and plagiarized info, and then
      tweaked it by adding a couple
      of Higher Planes that Twit, Darwin,
      and Klemp had overlooked.

      After all, Why should Sugmad
      reside on the 10th Plane (ANAMI
      LOK) and not a higher one when
      the LEM is of the 12th Plane and
      the Mahanta of the 14th Plane!

      The Living Sraosha Master (LSM),
      [BTW-SRAOSHA means ECK, see
      pg. 200 of the 1998 EK Lexicon
      and page 51 of The Path of the
      Masters] is just another conman.

      Anyway, what's funny is that
      anyone can simply insert their
      own name in place of this guy's
      and who's to disprove his "inner"
      experiences and the story he's
      spinning? It like with Twitchell's
      bullshit which Darwin and Klemp
      inherited by playing-the-game.

      So, Twitchell's and Klemp's "God
      Worlds Chart" i.e. "Worlds of ECK"
      goes to the 10th Plane. This below
      chart goes to the 12th Plane. The
      12th Plane is the AKSHAR and the
      11th is a derivative of this... I forget
      exactly what it was. In any case
      AKSHAR means SUGMAD and it
      can be found in "Path" on pages
      264, 284, and 305.




      **********************
      AKATHA God Worlds Chart - Lower and Higher Planes
      A message from Sri Kahtifji, the Mahaji, the 973rd Living SRAOSHA Master regarding the God Worlds Chart

      "The AKATHA God Worlds chart is very important insofar as the chela (student of AKATHA) needs to see it in order to know how to negotiate through the God Worlds. It is especially important to manoeuvre through the lower worlds getting to the Soul Plane as quickly as possible. Still that paradox exists regarding the essence of man as Soul wherein each one is the Sound and Light of SRAOSHA and therefore, dwells really upon the Soul Plane. The problem is that those outside AKATHA do not know it. We are fortunate to have this God knowlege, the Para-Vidya, in AKATHA. Still Soul needs to see the God Worlds superstructure for the true matrix of the universe. This mapping is very old, older than time itself. Hence, we again are fortunate that Paulji (Paul Twitchell) was the pioneer for this mapping in the recent past. Otherwise, we would not know were to go on the inner. The chela should really appreciate that we know were to go spiritually in AKATHA."



      You can view the AKATHA GOD WORLDS CHART by clicking on the PDF link below or viewing in Scribd.

      the_god_worlds_of_akatha_31.pdf
      Download File
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Allen and All, Let s face it. This Sri Kahtifji is either a conman, like Twitchell, or is deluded. Maybe a combo of both! Allen, if you would take the
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 12, 2012
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        Hello Allen and All,
        Let's face it. This Sri
        Kahtifji is either a
        conman, like Twitchell,
        or is deluded. Maybe
        a combo of both!

        Allen, if you would take
        the time to look at the
        PT info, older post below,
        from his June, 1971 interviews
        you would see that Twit
        was a liar, poser, conman
        and a self-promoter.
        These quotes were taken
        from "Difficulties Of
        Becoming The Living
        ECK Master."

        [If you have "Difficulties"
        see pgs. 38-48, 70-71]

        1. Twitchell never travelled
        to India, especially, with his
        sister and, especially, from
        Paris, France, when he was
        15 years old (circa 1923).
        Kay-Dee was in school in
        Paris, Kentucky.

        This means that Twitchell
        never received his 2nd initiation
        (at this time or place) from
        either Sudar, or Kirpal Singh.
        It didn't happen!

        2. Therefore, any follow-up
        (2nd & 3rd) visits to India
        (1947 & 1951) to see Rebazar
        and to receive initiations 3-7
        and then 8-12 were also lies.
        Sudar was actually Kirpal Singh
        and he was Paul's real Master
        from 1955-1965, but Kirpal
        had a falling out with Paul due
        to exaggerations and pure
        fiction PT used in his Tiger's
        Fang manuscript. PT has Sudar
        (Kirpal) dying in 1937, but Kirpal
        actually outlived Paul by three
        years and died in 1974 at 80
        years old while Paul was 63.

        Rebazar (among other EK
        Masters like Fubbi) were/are
        imaginary characters created
        by Twitchell in order to establish
        an ancient "line of Mastership."
        Rebazar was created so that
        Twitchell could initiate himself
        as a 12th Plane "Master." Later,
        1969, Paul made himself a
        14th Plane Mahanta/Master.

        These ego-driven conmen always
        need to one-up the competition
        by giving themselves more and
        more phony initiation numbers
        and more glorified titles! Their
        deluded followers will believe
        anything they say. Look around,
        it's the same with all religions!

        3. Anyone believing Twitchell
        was a "Master" and was not a
        liar, or that Rebazar and Fubbi
        actually exist are either delusional,
        stupid, fearful, insane, weak
        minded, are conmen themselves,
        or are a combo of all the above!

        Prometheus
        BTW- Allen, I really doubt that
        you've done a research of info
        in "Difficulties Of Becoming The
        Living ECK Master?" Do you have
        this book in order to verify the
        info I've posted from pages 38-48
        and 70-71? Really, Paul was never
        in Paris, France at 15 years of age!

        Have you ever read "The Path of
        the Masters" or Ford Johnson's
        book "Confessions of a God-Seeker?"
        I you had read these (not a speed
        read like Twit would do), and kept
        an open mind while doing so, you
        would begin to see through all of
        Twitchell's bullshit and that of his
        Eckankar con.


        ********
        Just thought I'd bring
        this back to the front
        page for another look.

        This LSM character is
        saying that there's no
        empirical evidence showing
        that Paul wasn't what
        he claimed. That's not
        true! We have Paul's
        own words that prove
        he lied about and stole
        almost everything that
        became Eckankar. Would
        a spiritual "Master" lie
        or would a conman lie?

        What's the difference
        between the two?
        One is deluded while
        the other is dishonest!
        Both are vain and toot
        their own horns.

        It's also interesting that
        this Akshar Master is using
        ECK Master Fubbi Quantz
        as the (replacement) 972nd
        LSM while he's the 973rd
        replacement for Klemp!
        Too funny!

        p.s. What's also funny is
        that this LSM states that
        PT was in charge (as LEM
        or LSM?) from 65-72. Did
        he just round it off to 72?
        Or should it have been
        66-72?

        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello Etznab,
        > I'll have to agree that
        > Sudar Singh was really
        > Kirpal Singh. Paul lied
        > about who Sudar was.
        >
        > BTW- Sudar Singh is
        > listed in Klemp's ECK
        > Lexicon as the LEM who
        > taught Twitchell, thus,
        > it seems that Kirpal
        > (Sudar) was actually
        > the 970th LEM since
        > Rebazar is fictitious.
        >
        > Also, in Twitchell's June
        > 1971 interviews printed
        > in:
        >
        > "Difficulties Of Becoming
        > The Living ECK Master."
        >
        > PT stated that he was 15
        > years old (pg. 48) when
        > he traveled from "Paris"
        > to India where PT states
        > he got his 2nd initiation
        > from Sudar Singh. All of
        > this distorted info comes
        > directly from Twitchell's
        > own mouth!
        >
        > Even the ECKankar spokes-
        > person, Doug Marman,
        > has stated that Twitchell
        > was lying and misdirected
        > people into thinking this
        > was Paris, France (where
        > PT went to visit his sister)
        > when it was actually Paris,
        > Kentucky! I, also, doubt
        > that Twit flew from Paris,
        > Kentucky to India! When
        > you catch a person in one
        > lie it makes you wonder
        > how many other lies there
        > were/are.
        >
        > Klemp states that PT was
        > born in 1908, but it really
        > doesn't matter because it
        > was between 1908-1910.
        >
        > Let's say PT was born
        > in 1908. This means
        > that when he was 15
        > (pg.48) and got his 2nd
        > initiation from Sudar
        > the year was 1923.
        >
        > Note: Klemp mentions
        > in the Paul Twitchell
        > (born 1908) info on
        > Eckankar.org that PT
        > was "Twisting Facts"
        > and "Exaggerating"
        > at age 27 (1935) to
        > get into "Who's Who
        > in Kentucky" and that
        > Twitchell had never
        > been all that far from
        > home. Paul's first wife
        > stated that he had
        > never been outside
        > of the U.S. until he
        > joined the Navy in 1942.
        >
        > PT claims that on the
        > next (2nd) trip to India
        > it was 1947. This was
        > when he met Rebazar
        > and received initiations
        > 3-7.
        >
        > BTW- It seems that Twitchell
        > was a 2nd initiate from
        > 1923-1947....{Sudar had
        > died in 1937 (pg. 45)}
        >
        > I wonder who PT's master
        > was from 1937-47 since
        > he says he didn't meet RT
        > until 1947?
        >
        > And, this means that Twitchell
        > was a 2nd initiate for 24
        > years... 1923-47!
        >
        > And, Rebazar was the fill-
        > in LEM since 1937.
        >
        > PT claims to have gone
        > from 3rd to 7th initiate
        > in six to seven months!
        >
        > On Twitchell's 3rd trip
        > to India (1951), to meet
        > Rebazar for the second
        > time, PT says he "got the
        > finish of my initiations."
        > I'm assuming this was
        > 8-12!
        >
        > Now, maybe I'm wrong
        > that Sudar Singh was the
        > 970th LEM.
        >
        > Maybe Sudar was the 969th
        > LEM and Rebazar (as fill-in)
        > was the 970th LEM since
        > he, supposedly, gave PT
        > the 12th and made him
        > the LEM.
        >
        > However, was Twitchell
        > the LEM in 1951? It sure
        > doesn't seem so according
        > to Twitchell's writings.
        > Or, did Twit get the 12th
        > but Not the LEM position?
        >
        > This would mean that Rebazar
        > was the LEM from 1937-65!
        > The truth is, it's all a lie!
        >
        > Plus, let's remember this
        > too. Twitchell is telling all
        > of this in a series of interviews
        > in June, 1971 (as the Mahanta).
        > And, this was just a few
        > months before his untimely
        > death. Lies and more lies up
        > to his death!
        >
        > Anyway, pages 38-48, 70-71
        > have all of the info one needs.
        > Just remember that Twitchell
        > was born in 1908 (close enough),
        > and that in June, 1966 Kirpal
        > Singh (Paul's real Master)
        > returned PT's "The Tiger's Fang"
        > manuscript to him. Plus, it
        > was January, 1969 that the
        > word "Mahanta" was first used
        > in print by Twitchell.
        >
        > Think about this. If PT was in
        > training by Rebazar over all
        > these years, as he claimed, and
        > received 12 initiations from him,
        > one would think that RT would
        > have told PT about the 14th
        > level/plane and that PT would
        > have used the term "Mahanta"
        > before 1969!
        >
        > Sure, anything can be debated,
        > but credibility goes a long way
        > in deciding if the person telling
        > you all this stuff can be trusted.
        > Twitchell was a known and proven
        > plagiarist and a liar as pointed
        > out by former RESA Ford Johnson,
        > by Doug Marman, and even by
        > Harold Klemp!
        >
        > Regardless of proven facts,
        > common sense, logic, and
        > past behavior, some people
        > will still believe this crap.
        > They need to believe in
        > something/anything bigger
        > and greater than themselves.
        > They allow their minds and
        > imaginations to be programmed
        > to expect and dream of
        > scenarios that are "spiritual."
        >
        > Prometheus

        "allen4447" wrote:
        >
        > Hello Everyone,
        >
        > If you look at Paul Twitchell's "Spiritual Notebook" 1981 edition which I believe is identical to older copies on page 106 you will see a 12th plain chart that is almost identical to the AKATHA chart that's at:
        >

        > http://www.akatha.com/akatha-god-worlds-chart-showing-lower-and-higher-plains.html
        >

        > A look through the old Eckankar dictionary from 1973 shows I believe that all AKATHA terms except AKATHA are listed. see:
        >
        http://www.akatha.com/akatha-glossary.html
        >

        > All that this proves is that AKATHA and Paul's old time Eckankar (pre 1972) are as Prometheus stated almost identical. I believe that Sri Kahtifji would probably agree, stating he holds the Rod of SRAOSHA power which is really the same as the rod of Eck power that Paul Twichell held till 1971. I believe Sri Kahtifji has also stated somewhere (not sure where) that AKATHA is really Old time Eckankar (pre 1971) So AKATHA being similar to old time Eckankar this is not something AKATHA is trying to hid from anyone.

        > So all we are left with is who believes what?

        > This is the problem with debating anything of a spiritual nature whether its AKATHA, Eckankar, Christianity, Buddhism, etc.
        >
        > I am no fan of the "New Eckankar" that Klemp created.

        > I am a former Eck chela for 29 years I'm glad I got out! I do not recommend the "New Klemp Eckankar"

        > But I have to say in all honesty from my viewpoint Paul Twichell was a Spiritual Giant.

        > And so is Sri Kahtifji. I know most of you will probably disagree but this is the nature of Spiritual Debating. Or Discussion : ) How can anyone ever win an augment about Spirituality?

        > All you can do is find a path that makes seems to you and feels right to you and give it a try and see where it leads you. Some chose to follow "Science" what ever that means. Others AKATHA. Others Eckankar or Christian Mysticism or what ever. I frankly can't blame some of you for being so annoyed with the new Eckankar as I agree there is a lot of nonsense going on.

        > But some of us are God seekers who truly desire to find God. And so it goes we go down all kinds of avenues trying to find answers to questions that seem almost impossible to answer!

        > AKATHA has done more for me over the last 3 months then Eckankar did over the last 29 years.

        > But its an individual thing and we all need to find our own path what ever the word Path means to us individually.
        >
        > Allen
        >
        >
        prometheus wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello All,
        > > Just Google: Living SRAOSHA
        > > Master and the site comes up.
        > >
        > > This guy copied Paul's God
        > > World Chart, which was copied
        > > and plagiarized info, and then
        > > tweaked it by adding a couple
        > > of Higher Planes that Twit, Darwin,
        > > and Klemp had overlooked.
        > >
        > > After all, Why should Sugmad
        > > reside on the 10th Plane (ANAMI
        > > LOK) and not a higher one when
        > > the LEM is of the 12th Plane and
        > > the Mahanta of the 14th Plane!
        > >
        > > The Living Sraosha Master (LSM),
        > > [BTW-SRAOSHA means ECK, see
        > > pg. 200 of the 1998 EK Lexicon
        > > and page 51 of The Path of the
        > > Masters] is just another conman.
        > >
        > > Anyway, what's funny is that
        > > anyone can simply insert their
        > > own name in place of this guy's
        > > and who's to disprove his "inner"
        > > experiences and the story he's
        > > spinning? It like with Twitchell's
        > > bullshit which Darwin and Klemp
        > > inherited by playing-the-game.
        > >
        > > So, Twitchell's and Klemp's "God
        > > Worlds Chart" i.e. "Worlds of ECK"
        > > goes to the 10th Plane. This below
        > > chart goes to the 12th Plane. The
        > > 12th Plane is the AKSHAR and the
        > > 11th is a derivative of this... I forget
        > > exactly what it was. In any case
        > > AKSHAR means SUGMAD and it
        > > can be found in "Path" on pages
        > > 264, 284, and 305.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > **********************
        > > AKATHA God Worlds Chart - Lower and Higher Planes
        > > A message from Sri Kahtifji, the Mahaji, the 973rd Living SRAOSHA Master regarding the God Worlds Chart
        > >
        > > "The AKATHA God Worlds chart is very important insofar as the chela (student of AKATHA) needs to see it in order to know how to negotiate through the God Worlds. It is especially important to manoeuvre through the lower worlds getting to the Soul Plane as quickly as possible. Still that paradox exists regarding the essence of man as Soul wherein each one is the Sound and Light of SRAOSHA and therefore, dwells really upon the Soul Plane. The problem is that those outside AKATHA do not know it. We are fortunate to have this God knowlege, the Para-Vidya, in AKATHA. Still Soul needs to see the God Worlds superstructure for the true matrix of the universe. This mapping is very old, older than time itself. Hence, we again are fortunate that Paulji (Paul Twitchell) was the pioneer for this mapping in the recent past. Otherwise, we would not know were to go on the inner. The chela should really appreciate that we know were to go spiritually in AKATHA."
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > You can view the AKATHA GOD WORLDS CHART by clicking on the PDF link below or viewing in Scribd.
        > >
        > > the_god_worlds_of_akatha_31.pdf
        > > Download File
        > >
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Allen and All, You have, obviously, taken and swallowed the bait along with the hook, line, and sinker. You ve got blinders on, which is curious. Perhaps
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 13, 2012
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          Hello Allen and All,
          You have, obviously, taken
          and swallowed the bait along
          with the hook, line, and sinker.
          You've got blinders on, which
          is curious. Perhaps you became
          or saw yourself disenfranchised
          regarding higher initiations while
          under the Klempster?

          Anyway, I'll respond to your
          comments below:


          allen wrote:
          Hello Prometheus and the whole group.

          First off I wanted to thank you for letting me express my self even though I
          know many of you if not all of you don't agree with me!

          ME: True.

          A:
          Anyway this is a good dialog and I think you for at least entertaining my
          viewpoint.

          ME: I find your dialog (diatribe)
          to be unentertaining, redundant
          and tedious.

          A:
          I do have Difficulties of Becoming the living ECK master.
          I have Ford's book. Ect.

          ME: When's the last time you "read"
          these books? How about "The Path
          of the Masters" by Julian P. Johnson?

          A:
          Most of the criticism I have seen about Paul Twitchell I find quite amusing.
          This is what happens when we fail to learn Soul Travel or what AKATHA calls
          Sahaji and we try and figure out this world through our physical senses. From
          the lower states of consciousness illusion rains supreme and we fall for it like
          a child falls for a cheap magic show in Vegas.

          ME: Who says that I, or others
          on this site, who are critical of
          your narrow, judgmental, and
          elitist views don't know how to
          Soul travel? How do you "know"
          what Akatha (i.e. God, Whatever)
          calls anything or says? Funny that
          you used the analogy of a cheap
          magic show in Vegas... it's a
          Freudian slip that points out that
          you are caught up with the illusion
          of your beliefs.

          A:
          I would also like to say that the idea that Paul Twitchell copied most of his
          stuff from other Authors is ridiculous.

          ME: That's a really close-minded
          remark. This site, in the links,
          (and files if you are a site member)
          has info showing PT's books with
          plagiarisms. Too bad you don't have
          a copy of The Path of the Masters
          but I think someone put it up in pdf
          in the links. Therefore, there's actual
          proof that your hero was a liar, thief,
          and poser!


          A:
          All one has to do is read all his books, discourses articles and listen to all
          his tapes and one realizes that he produced an amazing amount of materials over
          a very short time.

          ME: Don't be so foolish! PT copied
          and paraphrased other peoples
          info, experiences, and research.
          He substituted and changed names,
          words, letters, added, omitted, etc.,
          etc. This was all pointed out in Ford's
          book. Thus, either you did a speed
          read, couldn't handle the truth and
          are in denial like most ECKists,
          or you're lying about having read
          "Confessions of a God-Seeker."

          A:
          Paul called Eckankar the Ancient Science of Soul Travel.
          Any Scientist will tell you that Science is based on truth and not on
          originality!

          ME: No, not really. Science is
          based upon empirical evidence,
          proven theories, and being able
          to reproduce results. According
          to your view Edison wasn't very
          original.

          A:
          Ironically Paul Twitchell still managed to be one of the most original thinkers
          ever to grace this dark planet!


          ME: It's ironical that you would
          use "ironically" when promoting
          a conman, liar, wannabe, and
          plagiarist! BTW- I've got a bridge
          that I'd like to sell you.


          A:
          Science builds upon Truth. So since truth is contained EVERYWHERE mixed with
          UNTRUTH to say that Paul copied from others is ridiculous since all Science
          copies from the universal truth!

          ME: Actually Twit used, mostly,
          half-truths and fiction. However,
          when someone uses word for word
          paragraphs, like Twit, I'd say that
          he "copied." If you ever attended
          college you'd know that plagiarism
          was unethical and not allowed.
          It's unoriginal, lazy and dishonest
          to use someone else's words, research,
          experiences, and thoughts and,
          especially, not give them credit
          in a footnote.

          A:
          As far as Paul's tendency to distort "reality" all I can say is I have had
          numerous inner experiences with him and Sri Kahtifji through the spiritual
          Exercises of AKATHA and these types of things are useless to argue since how
          could you possibly understand or known my experiences? You do not. No fault of
          your own of course.


          ME: You're comments are
          arrogant (vain and Astral)!
          It's a two-way street. You
          don't know of my experiences
          either. But I do know that
          Kahtif is a phony and poser.
          His S.E.s are no more "spiritual"
          or enlightening as anyone
          else's. It's subjective and
          illusionistic and pure fantasy.
          Your fault is not having
          an open mind. Your need
          is to be be codependent.
          You sound like one of Klemp's
          ECKists!

          A:
          If Paul Twitchell did change his stories around how does that in any way
          invalidate who he was spiritually.


          ME: PT did change his stories.
          He was a liar and a manipulator
          and, it seems, a spiritual wannabe.

          If someone cannot live a truthful
          life, then, they are living a lie.

          Plus, let me point this out.
          In "Difficulties Of Becoming
          The Living ECK Master" PT
          states (pgs. 52-56) that when
          in the Navy during WWII he
          created chaos and problems
          with his paperwork and played
          mental and psychological
          games with people in order
          to get out of work or duty
          assignments. This was during
          war time! These disruptions
          are not only narcissistic but
          are what the enemy would do...
          not someone who had claimed
          to have received the 2nd initiation
          in 1923 and who, supposedly,
          had visitations with Inner Masters
          and was destined as a "spiritual"
          master. Nope! Twitchell was
          always a narcissist and liar first,
          a conman & self-promoter
          second, and maybe, a spiritual
          seeker third.


          A:
          Again the analogy of a virtuoso violinist.
          If a virtuoso violinist tells you he is going to give a recital in Carnegie Hall
          on the 23rd of May, and you find out later no such concert is planed on such a
          date… does that make him any less talented as a violinist? Does that make his
          music bad? Does that mean his notes are out of tune of sour?


          ME: First, I don't buy your analogy.
          That's like a "Christian" using the
          Bible to prove a point because it's
          "the word of God." I don't buy that
          either! BTW- Where's Mozart fit-in?
          Did he take lessons?

          You, as Soul, is the only teacher
          you need, in conjunction with Spirit.

          A:
          Paul Twitchell was definitely an enigma and a mystery but his spiritual
          ability's and his ability to express truth where amazing.


          ME: Reread Ford's book... slowly
          this time. Digest it. Contemplate/
          Meditate upon it. Take your time...
          weeks. However, don't bother with
          the last 1/4 of the book. Paul was
          no mystery, although, that's what
          he was trying to portray. Do you
          have a copy of the SHARIYAT 1?
          Look at the index - Mahanta, birth
          of. Paul rewrote it so that he was
          adopted and was, supposedly, born
          on a riverboat and left to drift like
          Moses.

          A:
          Has anyone hear actually read Paul's works carefully with an effort to
          understand what he was saying? Reading the Tigers Fang, Dialogs with the
          Master, The Far Country, letters to Gail 1, 2, and 3 and listening to a few of
          his lecture tapes and its hard for me to understand how anyone could miss Paul
          Twitchell's amazing gift at expressing great truths!

          ME: Yes! The Tiger's Fang was
          fictionalized and embellished.
          This is why Kirpal Singh had
          problems with it. Don't you read?
          There is a letter from Kirpal
          stating this and why Kirpal
          had the falling out with Twit
          and still had the manuscript
          in 1966.

          A:
          I feel the same way about Sri Kahtifji after listening to him speak for hours on
          end and reading his works.


          ME: You were brainwashed.
          This is a typical cult brainwashing
          technique to wear you down.
          Afterwards, you feel dazed
          and attribute this to having
          Soul traveled to higher spiritual
          realms.

          A:
          Yes its sad what Darwin and especially Harold have done to Eckankar since 1971.
          But Sri Paul Twitchell was not the problem. Sri Kahtifji is not the problem.
          Blame it on Harold Klemp if you must blame it on anyone. He has ruined
          something special.

          ME: Twitchell started the whole
          scam so he was the problem!
          Kahtif is as much a poser as
          is Klemp. No, I blame it on Paul
          and Gail. Mostly Gail because
          she encouraged Paul do it in
          order to make the big bucks
          that she wanted.

          A:
          But its back as AKATHA and for that I am great full.
          I know most of you if not all of you will disagree with me on most if not all of
          this.


          ME: True! Been there, done that,
          bought the books, tee shirt, and
          even the coffee mug!

          A:
          Such paradoxes of the universe make life very interesting. Non of you know the
          experiences I have had so its hard for you to understand my viewpoint on this.
          But in a nut shell if point (A) is true and point (B) is also true point (A) can
          not invalidate point (B).


          ME: Bullshit! Twit used the paradox
          ploy to twist the truth and you've merely
          bought into it. He's playing a game...
          (a shell game) and the joke's on you.

          A:
          And this is what we call a paradox or another way of putting it a
          misunderstanding of reality!

          ME: You're in denial.
          But I understand your
          need for a spot in the
          hierarchy.

          A:
          Such is the nature of the human mind. A pitiful instrument that we try and use
          until we learn Soul Travel or in AKATHA known as Sahaji. As Paul Twichell stated
          the mind is an excellent servant but a poor master.

          ME: Paul stole that adage
          as well. Why don't you know
          that?


          Prometheus



          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Allen and All,
          > Let's face it. This Sri
          > Kahtifji is either a
          > conman, like Twitchell,
          > or is deluded. Maybe
          > a combo of both!
          >
          > Allen, if you would take
          > the time to look at the
          > PT info, older post below,
          > from his June, 1971 interviews
          > you would see that Twit
          > was a liar, poser, conman
          > and a self-promoter.
          > These quotes were taken
          > from "Difficulties Of
          > Becoming The Living
          > ECK Master."
          >
          > [If you have "Difficulties"
          > see pgs. 38-48, 70-71]
          >
          > 1. Twitchell never travelled
          > to India, especially, with his
          > sister and, especially, from
          > Paris, France, when he was
          > 15 years old (circa 1923).
          > Kay-Dee was in school in
          > Paris, Kentucky.
          >
          > This means that Twitchell
          > never received his 2nd initiation
          > (at this time or place) from
          > either Sudar, or Kirpal Singh.
          > It didn't happen!
          >
          > 2. Therefore, any follow-up
          > (2nd & 3rd) visits to India
          > (1947 & 1951) to see Rebazar
          > and to receive initiations 3-7
          > and then 8-12 were also lies.
          > Sudar was actually Kirpal Singh
          > and he was Paul's real Master
          > from 1955-1965, but Kirpal
          > had a falling out with Paul due
          > to exaggerations and pure
          > fiction PT used in his Tiger's
          > Fang manuscript. PT has Sudar
          > (Kirpal) dying in 1937, but Kirpal
          > actually outlived Paul by three
          > years and died in 1974 at 80
          > years old while Paul was 63.
          >
          > Rebazar (among other EK
          > Masters like Fubbi) were/are
          > imaginary characters created
          > by Twitchell in order to establish
          > an ancient "line of Mastership."
          > Rebazar was created so that
          > Twitchell could initiate himself
          > as a 12th Plane "Master." Later,
          > 1969, Paul made himself a
          > 14th Plane Mahanta/Master.
          >
          > These ego-driven conmen always
          > need to one-up the competition
          > by giving themselves more and
          > more phony initiation numbers
          > and more glorified titles! Their
          > deluded followers will believe
          > anything they say. Look around,
          > it's the same with all religions!
          >
          > 3. Anyone believing Twitchell
          > was a "Master" and was not a
          > liar, or that Rebazar and Fubbi
          > actually exist are either delusional,
          > stupid, fearful, insane, weak
          > minded, are conmen themselves,
          > or are a combo of all the above!
          >
          > Prometheus
          > BTW- Allen, I really doubt that
          > you've done a research of info
          > in "Difficulties Of Becoming The
          > Living ECK Master?" Do you have
          > this book in order to verify the
          > info I've posted from pages 38-48
          > and 70-71? Really, Paul was never
          > in Paris, France at 15 years of age!
          >
          > Have you ever read "The Path of
          > the Masters" or Ford Johnson's
          > book "Confessions of a God-Seeker?"
          > I you had read these (not a speed
          > read like Twit would do), and kept
          > an open mind while doing so, you
          > would begin to see through all of
          > Twitchell's bullshit and that of his
          > Eckankar con.
          >
          >
          > ********
          > Just thought I'd bring
          > this back to the front
          > page for another look.
          >
          > This LSM character is
          > saying that there's no
          > empirical evidence showing
          > that Paul wasn't what
          > he claimed. That's not
          > true! We have Paul's
          > own words that prove
          > he lied about and stole
          > almost everything that
          > became Eckankar. Would
          > a spiritual "Master" lie
          > or would a conman lie?
          >
          > What's the difference
          > between the two?
          > One is deluded while
          > the other is dishonest!
          > Both are vain and toot
          > their own horns.
          >
          > It's also interesting that
          > this Akshar Master is using
          > ECK Master Fubbi Quantz
          > as the (replacement) 972nd
          > LSM while he's the 973rd
          > replacement for Klemp!
          > Too funny!
          >
          > p.s. What's also funny is
          > that this LSM states that
          > PT was in charge (as LEM
          > or LSM?) from 65-72. Did
          > he just round it off to 72?
          > Or should it have been
          > 66-72?
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Etznab,
          > > I'll have to agree that
          > > Sudar Singh was really
          > > Kirpal Singh. Paul lied
          > > about who Sudar was.
          > >
          > > BTW- Sudar Singh is
          > > listed in Klemp's ECK
          > > Lexicon as the LEM who
          > > taught Twitchell, thus,
          > > it seems that Kirpal
          > > (Sudar) was actually
          > > the 970th LEM since
          > > Rebazar is fictitious.
          > >
          > > Also, in Twitchell's June
          > > 1971 interviews printed
          > > in:
          > >
          > > "Difficulties Of Becoming
          > > The Living ECK Master."
          > >
          > > PT stated that he was 15
          > > years old (pg. 48) when
          > > he traveled from "Paris"
          > > to India where PT states
          > > he got his 2nd initiation
          > > from Sudar Singh. All of
          > > this distorted info comes
          > > directly from Twitchell's
          > > own mouth!
          > >
          > > Even the ECKankar spokes-
          > > person, Doug Marman,
          > > has stated that Twitchell
          > > was lying and misdirected
          > > people into thinking this
          > > was Paris, France (where
          > > PT went to visit his sister)
          > > when it was actually Paris,
          > > Kentucky! I, also, doubt
          > > that Twit flew from Paris,
          > > Kentucky to India! When
          > > you catch a person in one
          > > lie it makes you wonder
          > > how many other lies there
          > > were/are.
          > >
          > > Klemp states that PT was
          > > born in 1908, but it really
          > > doesn't matter because it
          > > was between 1908-1910.
          > >
          > > Let's say PT was born
          > > in 1908. This means
          > > that when he was 15
          > > (pg.48) and got his 2nd
          > > initiation from Sudar
          > > the year was 1923.
          > >
          > > Note: Klemp mentions
          > > in the Paul Twitchell
          > > (born 1908) info on
          > > Eckankar.org that PT
          > > was "Twisting Facts"
          > > and "Exaggerating"
          > > at age 27 (1935) to
          > > get into "Who's Who
          > > in Kentucky" and that
          > > Twitchell had never
          > > been all that far from
          > > home. Paul's first wife
          > > stated that he had
          > > never been outside
          > > of the U.S. until he
          > > joined the Navy in 1942.
          > >
          > > PT claims that on the
          > > next (2nd) trip to India
          > > it was 1947. This was
          > > when he met Rebazar
          > > and received initiations
          > > 3-7.
          > >
          > > BTW- It seems that Twitchell
          > > was a 2nd initiate from
          > > 1923-1947....{Sudar had
          > > died in 1937 (pg. 45)}
          > >
          > > I wonder who PT's master
          > > was from 1937-47 since
          > > he says he didn't meet RT
          > > until 1947?
          > >
          > > And, this means that Twitchell
          > > was a 2nd initiate for 24
          > > years... 1923-47!
          > >
          > > And, Rebazar was the fill-
          > > in LEM since 1937.
          > >
          > > PT claims to have gone
          > > from 3rd to 7th initiate
          > > in six to seven months!
          > >
          > > On Twitchell's 3rd trip
          > > to India (1951), to meet
          > > Rebazar for the second
          > > time, PT says he "got the
          > > finish of my initiations."
          > > I'm assuming this was
          > > 8-12!
          > >
          > > Now, maybe I'm wrong
          > > that Sudar Singh was the
          > > 970th LEM.
          > >
          > > Maybe Sudar was the 969th
          > > LEM and Rebazar (as fill-in)
          > > was the 970th LEM since
          > > he, supposedly, gave PT
          > > the 12th and made him
          > > the LEM.
          > >
          > > However, was Twitchell
          > > the LEM in 1951? It sure
          > > doesn't seem so according
          > > to Twitchell's writings.
          > > Or, did Twit get the 12th
          > > but Not the LEM position?
          > >
          > > This would mean that Rebazar
          > > was the LEM from 1937-65!
          > > The truth is, it's all a lie!
          > >
          > > Plus, let's remember this
          > > too. Twitchell is telling all
          > > of this in a series of interviews
          > > in June, 1971 (as the Mahanta).
          > > And, this was just a few
          > > months before his untimely
          > > death. Lies and more lies up
          > > to his death!
          > >
          > > Anyway, pages 38-48, 70-71
          > > have all of the info one needs.
          > > Just remember that Twitchell
          > > was born in 1908 (close enough),
          > > and that in June, 1966 Kirpal
          > > Singh (Paul's real Master)
          > > returned PT's "The Tiger's Fang"
          > > manuscript to him. Plus, it
          > > was January, 1969 that the
          > > word "Mahanta" was first used
          > > in print by Twitchell.
          > >
          > > Think about this. If PT was in
          > > training by Rebazar over all
          > > these years, as he claimed, and
          > > received 12 initiations from him,
          > > one would think that RT would
          > > have told PT about the 14th
          > > level/plane and that PT would
          > > have used the term "Mahanta"
          > > before 1969!
          > >
          > > Sure, anything can be debated,
          > > but credibility goes a long way
          > > in deciding if the person telling
          > > you all this stuff can be trusted.
          > > Twitchell was a known and proven
          > > plagiarist and a liar as pointed
          > > out by former RESA Ford Johnson,
          > > by Doug Marman, and even by
          > > Harold Klemp!
          > >
          > > Regardless of proven facts,
          > > common sense, logic, and
          > > past behavior, some people
          > > will still believe this crap.
          > > They need to believe in
          > > something/anything bigger
          > > and greater than themselves.
          > > They allow their minds and
          > > imaginations to be programmed
          > > to expect and dream of
          > > scenarios that are "spiritual."
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          >
          > "allen4447" wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Everyone,
          > >
          > > If you look at Paul Twitchell's "Spiritual Notebook" 1981 edition which I
          believe is identical to older copies on page 106 you will see a 12th plain chart
          that is almost identical to the AKATHA chart that's at:
          > >
          >
          > >
          http://www.akatha.com/akatha-god-worlds-chart-showing-lower-and-higher-plains.ht\
          \
          ml
          > >
          >
          > > A look through the old Eckankar dictionary from 1973 shows I believe that
          all AKATHA terms except AKATHA are listed. see:
          > >
          > http://www.akatha.com/akatha-glossary.html
          > >
          >
          > > All that this proves is that AKATHA and Paul's old time Eckankar (pre 1972)
          are as Prometheus stated almost identical. I believe that Sri Kahtifji would
          probably agree, stating he holds the Rod of SRAOSHA power which is really the
          same as the rod of Eck power that Paul Twichell held till 1971. I believe Sri
          Kahtifji has also stated somewhere (not sure where) that AKATHA is really Old
          time Eckankar (pre 1971) So AKATHA being similar to old time Eckankar this is
          not something AKATHA is trying to hid from anyone.
          >
          > > So all we are left with is who believes what?
          >
          > > This is the problem with debating anything of a spiritual nature whether its
          AKATHA, Eckankar, Christianity, Buddhism, etc.
          > >
          > > I am no fan of the "New Eckankar" that Klemp created.
          >
          > > I am a former Eck chela for 29 years I'm glad I got out! I do not recommend
          the "New Klemp Eckankar"
          >
          > > But I have to say in all honesty from my viewpoint Paul Twichell was a
          Spiritual Giant.
          >
          > > And so is Sri Kahtifji. I know most of you will probably disagree but this
          is the nature of Spiritual Debating. Or Discussion : ) How can anyone ever win
          an augment about Spirituality?
          >
          > > All you can do is find a path that makes seems to you and feels right to you
          and give it a try and see where it leads you. Some chose to follow "Science"
          what ever that means. Others AKATHA. Others Eckankar or Christian Mysticism or
          what ever. I frankly can't blame some of you for being so annoyed with the new
          Eckankar as I agree there is a lot of nonsense going on.
          >
          > > But some of us are God seekers who truly desire to find God. And so it goes
          we go down all kinds of avenues trying to find answers to questions that seem
          almost impossible to answer!
          >
          > > AKATHA has done more for me over the last 3 months then Eckankar did over
          the last 29 years.
          >
          > > But its an individual thing and we all need to find our own path what ever
          the word Path means to us individually.
          > >
          > > Allen
          > >
          > >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hello All,
          > > > Just Google: Living SRAOSHA
          > > > Master and the site comes up.
          > > >
          > > > This guy copied Paul's God
          > > > World Chart, which was copied
          > > > and plagiarized info, and then
          > > > tweaked it by adding a couple
          > > > of Higher Planes that Twit, Darwin,
          > > > and Klemp had overlooked.
          > > >
          > > > After all, Why should Sugmad
          > > > reside on the 10th Plane (ANAMI
          > > > LOK) and not a higher one when
          > > > the LEM is of the 12th Plane and
          > > > the Mahanta of the 14th Plane!
          > > >
          > > > The Living Sraosha Master (LSM),
          > > > [BTW-SRAOSHA means ECK, see
          > > > pg. 200 of the 1998 EK Lexicon
          > > > and page 51 of The Path of the
          > > > Masters] is just another conman.
          > > >
          > > > Anyway, what's funny is that
          > > > anyone can simply insert their
          > > > own name in place of this guy's
          > > > and who's to disprove his "inner"
          > > > experiences and the story he's
          > > > spinning? It like with Twitchell's
          > > > bullshit which Darwin and Klemp
          > > > inherited by playing-the-game.
          > > >
          > > > So, Twitchell's and Klemp's "God
          > > > Worlds Chart" i.e. "Worlds of ECK"
          > > > goes to the 10th Plane. This below
          > > > chart goes to the 12th Plane. The
          > > > 12th Plane is the AKSHAR and the
          > > > 11th is a derivative of this... I forget
          > > > exactly what it was. In any case
          > > > AKSHAR means SUGMAD and it
          > > > can be found in "Path" on pages
          > > > 264, 284, and 305.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > **********************
          > > > AKATHA God Worlds Chart - Lower and Higher Planes
          > > > A message from Sri Kahtifji, the Mahaji, the 973rd Living SRAOSHA Master
          regarding the God Worlds Chart
          > > >
          > > > "The AKATHA God Worlds chart is very important insofar as the chela
          (student of AKATHA) needs to see it in order to know how to negotiate through
          the God Worlds. It is especially important to manoeuvre through the lower worlds
          getting to the Soul Plane as quickly as possible. Still that paradox exists
          regarding the essence of man as Soul wherein each one is the Sound and Light of
          SRAOSHA and therefore, dwells really upon the Soul Plane. The problem is that
          those outside AKATHA do not know it. We are fortunate to have this God knowlege,
          the Para-Vidya, in AKATHA. Still Soul needs to see the God Worlds
          superstructure for the true matrix of the universe. This mapping is very old,
          older than time itself. Hence, we again are fortunate that Paulji (Paul
          Twitchell) was the pioneer for this mapping in the recent past. Otherwise, we
          would not know were to go on the inner. The chela should really appreciate that
          we know were to go spiritually in AKATHA."
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > You can view the AKATHA GOD WORLDS CHART by clicking on the PDF link below
          or viewing in Scribd.
          > > >
          > > > the_god_worlds_of_akatha_31.pdf
          > > > Download File
        • Tyson
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 13, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Allen and All,
            > You have, obviously, taken
            > and swallowed the bait along
            > with the hook, line, and sinker.
            > You've got blinders on, which
            > is curious. Perhaps you became
            > or saw yourself disenfranchised
            > regarding higher initiations while
            > under the Klempster?
            >
            > Anyway, I'll respond to your
            > comments below:
            >
            >
            > allen wrote:
            > Hello Prometheus and the whole group.
            >
            > First off I wanted to thank you for letting me express my self even though I
            > know many of you if not all of you don't agree with me!
            >
            > ME: True.
            >
            > A:
            > Anyway this is a good dialog and I think you for at least entertaining my
            > viewpoint.
            >
            > ME: I find your dialog (diatribe)
            > to be unentertaining, redundant
            > and tedious.
            >
            > A:
            > I do have Difficulties of Becoming the living ECK master.
            > I have Ford's book. Ect.
            >
            > ME: When's the last time you "read"
            > these books? How about "The Path
            > of the Masters" by Julian P. Johnson?
            >
            > A:
            > Most of the criticism I have seen about Paul Twitchell I find quite amusing.
            > This is what happens when we fail to learn Soul Travel or what AKATHA calls
            > Sahaji and we try and figure out this world through our physical senses. From
            > the lower states of consciousness illusion rains supreme and we fall for it like
            > a child falls for a cheap magic show in Vegas.
            >
            > ME: Who says that I, or others
            > on this site, who are critical of
            > your narrow, judgmental, and
            > elitist views don't know how to
            > Soul travel? How do you "know"
            > what Akatha (i.e. God, Whatever)
            > calls anything or says? Funny that
            > you used the analogy of a cheap
            > magic show in Vegas... it's a
            > Freudian slip that points out that
            > you are caught up with the illusion
            > of your beliefs.
            >
            > A:
            > I would also like to say that the idea that Paul Twitchell copied most of his
            > stuff from other Authors is ridiculous.
            >
            > ME: That's a really close-minded
            > remark. This site, in the links,
            > (and files if you are a site member)
            > has info showing PT's books with
            > plagiarisms. Too bad you don't have
            > a copy of The Path of the Masters
            > but I think someone put it up in pdf
            > in the links. Therefore, there's actual
            > proof that your hero was a liar, thief,
            > and poser!
            >
            >
            > A:
            > All one has to do is read all his books, discourses articles and listen to all
            > his tapes and one realizes that he produced an amazing amount of materials over
            > a very short time.
            >
            > ME: Don't be so foolish! PT copied
            > and paraphrased other peoples
            > info, experiences, and research.
            > He substituted and changed names,
            > words, letters, added, omitted, etc.,
            > etc. This was all pointed out in Ford's
            > book. Thus, either you did a speed
            > read, couldn't handle the truth and
            > are in denial like most ECKists,
            > or you're lying about having read
            > "Confessions of a God-Seeker."
            >
            > A:
            > Paul called Eckankar the Ancient Science of Soul Travel.
            > Any Scientist will tell you that Science is based on truth and not on
            > originality!
            >
            > ME: No, not really. Science is
            > based upon empirical evidence,
            > proven theories, and being able
            > to reproduce results. According
            > to your view Edison wasn't very
            > original.
            >
            > A:
            > Ironically Paul Twitchell still managed to be one of the most original thinkers
            > ever to grace this dark planet!
            >
            >
            > ME: It's ironical that you would
            > use "ironically" when promoting
            > a conman, liar, wannabe, and
            > plagiarist! BTW- I've got a bridge
            > that I'd like to sell you.
            >
            >
            > A:
            > Science builds upon Truth. So since truth is contained EVERYWHERE mixed with
            > UNTRUTH to say that Paul copied from others is ridiculous since all Science
            > copies from the universal truth!
            >
            > ME: Actually Twit used, mostly,
            > half-truths and fiction. However,
            > when someone uses word for word
            > paragraphs, like Twit, I'd say that
            > he "copied." If you ever attended
            > college you'd know that plagiarism
            > was unethical and not allowed.
            > It's unoriginal, lazy and dishonest
            > to use someone else's words, research,
            > experiences, and thoughts and,
            > especially, not give them credit
            > in a footnote.
            >
            > A:
            > As far as Paul's tendency to distort "reality" all I can say is I have had
            > numerous inner experiences with him and Sri Kahtifji through the spiritual
            > Exercises of AKATHA and these types of things are useless to argue since how
            > could you possibly understand or known my experiences? You do not. No fault of
            > your own of course.
            >*(From Abu Njoroge Tammuz) I am curious how many of these experiences were in the Dream state thus subject to subliminal messages introduced to the subconscious mind,as apposed to actual conscious experiences during meditation like true Sahaji wich is Shabda Yoga according to Pauls own words in the book "In my soul I am free.")
            >
            > ME: You're comments are
            > arrogant (vain and Astral)!
            > It's a two-way street. You
            > don't know of my experiences
            > either. But I do know that
            > Kahtif is a phony and poser.
            > His S.E.s are no more "spiritual"
            > or enlightening as anyone
            > else's. It's subjective and
            > illusionistic and pure fantasy.
            > Your fault is not having
            > an open mind. Your need
            > is to be be codependent.
            > You sound like one of Klemp's
            > ECKists!
            >
            > A:
            > If Paul Twitchell did change his stories around how does that in any way
            > invalidate who he was spiritually.
            >
            >
            > ME: PT did change his stories.
            > He was a liar and a manipulator
            > and, it seems, a spiritual wannabe.
            >
            > If someone cannot live a truthful
            > life, then, they are living a lie.
            >
            > Plus, let me point this out.
            > In "Difficulties Of Becoming
            > The Living ECK Master" PT
            > states (pgs. 52-56) that when
            > in the Navy during WWII he
            > created chaos and problems
            > with his paperwork and played
            > mental and psychological
            > games with people in order
            > to get out of work or duty
            > assignments. This was during
            > war time! These disruptions
            > are not only narcissistic but
            > are what the enemy would do...
            > not someone who had claimed
            > to have received the 2nd initiation
            > in 1923 and who, supposedly,
            > had visitations with Inner Masters
            > and was destined as a "spiritual"
            > master. Nope! Twitchell was
            > always a narcissist and liar first,
            > a conman & self-promoter
            > second, and maybe, a spiritual
            > seeker third.
            >
            >
            > A:
            > Again the analogy of a virtuoso violinist.
            > If a virtuoso violinist tells you he is going to give a recital in Carnegie Hall
            > on the 23rd of May, and you find out later no such concert is planed on such a
            > date… does that make him any less talented as a violinist? Does that make his
            > music bad? Does that mean his notes are out of tune of sour?
            >
            >
            > ME: First, I don't buy your analogy.
            > That's like a "Christian" using the
            > Bible to prove a point because it's
            > "the word of God." I don't buy that
            > either! BTW- Where's Mozart fit-in?
            > Did he take lessons?
            >
            > You, as Soul, is the only teacher
            > you need, in conjunction with Spirit.
            >
            > A:
            > Paul Twitchell was definitely an enigma and a mystery but his spiritual
            > ability's and his ability to express truth where amazing.
            >
            >
            > ME: Reread Ford's book... slowly
            > this time. Digest it. Contemplate/
            > Meditate upon it. Take your time...
            > weeks. However, don't bother with
            > the last 1/4 of the book. Paul was
            > no mystery, although, that's what
            > he was trying to portray. Do you
            > have a copy of the SHARIYAT 1?
            > Look at the index - Mahanta, birth
            > of. Paul rewrote it so that he was
            > adopted and was, supposedly, born
            > on a riverboat and left to drift like
            > Moses.
            >
            > A:
            > Has anyone hear actually read Paul's works carefully with an effort to
            > understand what he was saying? Reading the Tigers Fang, Dialogs with the
            > Master, The Far Country, letters to Gail 1, 2, and 3 and listening to a few of
            > his lecture tapes and its hard for me to understand how anyone could miss Paul
            > Twitchell's amazing gift at expressing great truths!
            >
            > ME: Yes! The Tiger's Fang was
            > fictionalized and embellished.
            > This is why Kirpal Singh had
            > problems with it. Don't you read?
            > There is a letter from Kirpal
            > stating this and why Kirpal
            > had the falling out with Twit
            > and still had the manuscript
            > in 1966.
            >
            > A:
            > I feel the same way about Sri Kahtifji after listening to him speak for hours on
            > end and reading his works.
            >
            >
            > ME: You were brainwashed.
            > This is a typical cult brainwashing
            > technique to wear you down.
            > Afterwards, you feel dazed
            > and attribute this to having
            > Soul traveled to higher spiritual
            > realms.
            >
            > A:
            > Yes its sad what Darwin and especially Harold have done to Eckankar since 1971.
            > But Sri Paul Twitchell was not the problem. Sri Kahtifji is not the problem.
            > Blame it on Harold Klemp if you must blame it on anyone. He has ruined
            > something special.
            >
            > ME: Twitchell started the whole
            > scam so he was the problem!
            > Kahtif is as much a poser as
            > is Klemp. No, I blame it on Paul
            > and Gail. Mostly Gail because
            > she encouraged Paul do it in
            > order to make the big bucks
            > that she wanted.
            >
            > A:
            > But its back as AKATHA and for that I am great full.
            > I know most of you if not all of you will disagree with me on most if not all of
            > this.
            >
            >
            > ME: True! Been there, done that,
            > bought the books, tee shirt, and
            > even the coffee mug!
            >
            > A:
            > Such paradoxes of the universe make life very interesting. Non of you know the
            > experiences I have had so its hard for you to understand my viewpoint on this.
            > But in a nut shell if point (A) is true and point (B) is also true point (A) can
            > not invalidate point (B).
            >
            >
            > ME: Bullshit! Twit used the paradox
            > ploy to twist the truth and you've merely
            > bought into it. He's playing a game...
            > (a shell game) and the joke's on you.
            >
            > A:
            > And this is what we call a paradox or another way of putting it a
            > misunderstanding of reality!
            >
            > ME: You're in denial.
            > But I understand your
            > need for a spot in the
            > hierarchy.
            >
            > A:
            > Such is the nature of the human mind. A pitiful instrument that we try and use
            > until we learn Soul Travel or in AKATHA known as Sahaji. As Paul Twichell stated
            > the mind is an excellent servant but a poor master.
            >
            > ME: Paul stole that adage
            > as well. Why don't you know
            > that?
            >
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            >
            > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Allen and All,
            > > Let's face it. This Sri
            > > Kahtifji is either a
            > > conman, like Twitchell,
            > > or is deluded. Maybe
            > > a combo of both!
            > >
            > > Allen, if you would take
            > > the time to look at the
            > > PT info, older post below,
            > > from his June, 1971 interviews
            > > you would see that Twit
            > > was a liar, poser, conman
            > > and a self-promoter.
            > > These quotes were taken
            > > from "Difficulties Of
            > > Becoming The Living
            > > ECK Master."
            > >
            > > [If you have "Difficulties"
            > > see pgs. 38-48, 70-71]
            > >
            > > 1. Twitchell never travelled
            > > to India, especially, with his
            > > sister and, especially, from
            > > Paris, France, when he was
            > > 15 years old (circa 1923).
            > > Kay-Dee was in school in
            > > Paris, Kentucky.
            > >
            > > This means that Twitchell
            > > never received his 2nd initiation
            > > (at this time or place) from
            > > either Sudar, or Kirpal Singh.
            > > It didn't happen!
            > >
            > > 2. Therefore, any follow-up
            > > (2nd & 3rd) visits to India
            > > (1947 & 1951) to see Rebazar
            > > and to receive initiations 3-7
            > > and then 8-12 were also lies.
            > > Sudar was actually Kirpal Singh
            > > and he was Paul's real Master
            > > from 1955-1965, but Kirpal
            > > had a falling out with Paul due
            > > to exaggerations and pure
            > > fiction PT used in his Tiger's
            > > Fang manuscript. PT has Sudar
            > > (Kirpal) dying in 1937, but Kirpal
            > > actually outlived Paul by three
            > > years and died in 1974 at 80
            > > years old while Paul was 63.
            > >
            > > Rebazar (among other EK
            > > Masters like Fubbi) were/are
            > > imaginary characters created
            > > by Twitchell in order to establish
            > > an ancient "line of Mastership."
            > > Rebazar was created so that
            > > Twitchell could initiate himself
            > > as a 12th Plane "Master." Later,
            > > 1969, Paul made himself a
            > > 14th Plane Mahanta/Master.
            > >
            > > These ego-driven conmen always
            > > need to one-up the competition
            > > by giving themselves more and
            > > more phony initiation numbers
            > > and more glorified titles! Their
            > > deluded followers will believe
            > > anything they say. Look around,
            > > it's the same with all religions!
            > >
            > > 3. Anyone believing Twitchell
            > > was a "Master" and was not a
            > > liar, or that Rebazar and Fubbi
            > > actually exist are either delusional,
            > > stupid, fearful, insane, weak
            > > minded, are conmen themselves,
            > > or are a combo of all the above!
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > > BTW- Allen, I really doubt that
            > > you've done a research of info
            > > in "Difficulties Of Becoming The
            > > Living ECK Master?" Do you have
            > > this book in order to verify the
            > > info I've posted from pages 38-48
            > > and 70-71? Really, Paul was never
            > > in Paris, France at 15 years of age!
            > >
            > > Have you ever read "The Path of
            > > the Masters" or Ford Johnson's
            > > book "Confessions of a God-Seeker?"
            > > I you had read these (not a speed
            > > read like Twit would do), and kept
            > > an open mind while doing so, you
            > > would begin to see through all of
            > > Twitchell's bullshit and that of his
            > > Eckankar con.
            > >
            > >
            > > ********
            > > Just thought I'd bring
            > > this back to the front
            > > page for another look.
            > >
            > > This LSM character is
            > > saying that there's no
            > > empirical evidence showing
            > > that Paul wasn't what
            > > he claimed. That's not
            > > true! We have Paul's
            > > own words that prove
            > > he lied about and stole
            > > almost everything that
            > > became Eckankar. Would
            > > a spiritual "Master" lie
            > > or would a conman lie?
            > >
            > > What's the difference
            > > between the two?
            > > One is deluded while
            > > the other is dishonest!
            > > Both are vain and toot
            > > their own horns.
            > >
            > > It's also interesting that
            > > this Akshar Master is using
            > > ECK Master Fubbi Quantz
            > > as the (replacement) 972nd
            > > LSM while he's the 973rd
            > > replacement for Klemp!
            > > Too funny!
            > >
            > > p.s. What's also funny is
            > > that this LSM states that
            > > PT was in charge (as LEM
            > > or LSM?) from 65-72. Did
            > > he just round it off to 72?
            > > Or should it have been
            > > 66-72?
            > >
            > > prometheus wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hello Etznab,
            > > > I'll have to agree that
            > > > Sudar Singh was really
            > > > Kirpal Singh. Paul lied
            > > > about who Sudar was.
            > > >
            > > > BTW- Sudar Singh is
            > > > listed in Klemp's ECK
            > > > Lexicon as the LEM who
            > > > taught Twitchell, thus,
            > > > it seems that Kirpal
            > > > (Sudar) was actually
            > > > the 970th LEM since
            > > > Rebazar is fictitious.
            > > >
            > > > Also, in Twitchell's June
            > > > 1971 interviews printed
            > > > in:
            > > >
            > > > "Difficulties Of Becoming
            > > > The Living ECK Master."
            > > >
            > > > PT stated that he was 15
            > > > years old (pg. 48) when
            > > > he traveled from "Paris"
            > > > to India where PT states
            > > > he got his 2nd initiation
            > > > from Sudar Singh. All of
            > > > this distorted info comes
            > > > directly from Twitchell's
            > > > own mouth!
            > > >
            > > > Even the ECKankar spokes-
            > > > person, Doug Marman,
            > > > has stated that Twitchell
            > > > was lying and misdirected
            > > > people into thinking this
            > > > was Paris, France (where
            > > > PT went to visit his sister)
            > > > when it was actually Paris,
            > > > Kentucky! I, also, doubt
            > > > that Twit flew from Paris,
            > > > Kentucky to India! When
            > > > you catch a person in one
            > > > lie it makes you wonder
            > > > how many other lies there
            > > > were/are.
            > > >
            > > > Klemp states that PT was
            > > > born in 1908, but it really
            > > > doesn't matter because it
            > > > was between 1908-1910.
            > > >
            > > > Let's say PT was born
            > > > in 1908. This means
            > > > that when he was 15
            > > > (pg.48) and got his 2nd
            > > > initiation from Sudar
            > > > the year was 1923.
            > > >
            > > > Note: Klemp mentions
            > > > in the Paul Twitchell
            > > > (born 1908) info on
            > > > Eckankar.org that PT
            > > > was "Twisting Facts"
            > > > and "Exaggerating"
            > > > at age 27 (1935) to
            > > > get into "Who's Who
            > > > in Kentucky" and that
            > > > Twitchell had never
            > > > been all that far from
            > > > home. Paul's first wife
            > > > stated that he had
            > > > never been outside
            > > > of the U.S. until he
            > > > joined the Navy in 1942.
            > > >
            > > > PT claims that on the
            > > > next (2nd) trip to India
            > > > it was 1947. This was
            > > > when he met Rebazar
            > > > and received initiations
            > > > 3-7.
            > > >
            > > > BTW- It seems that Twitchell
            > > > was a 2nd initiate from
            > > > 1923-1947....{Sudar had
            > > > died in 1937 (pg. 45)}
            > > >
            > > > I wonder who PT's master
            > > > was from 1937-47 since
            > > > he says he didn't meet RT
            > > > until 1947?
            > > >
            > > > And, this means that Twitchell
            > > > was a 2nd initiate for 24
            > > > years... 1923-47!
            > > >
            > > > And, Rebazar was the fill-
            > > > in LEM since 1937.
            > > >
            > > > PT claims to have gone
            > > > from 3rd to 7th initiate
            > > > in six to seven months!
            > > >
            > > > On Twitchell's 3rd trip
            > > > to India (1951), to meet
            > > > Rebazar for the second
            > > > time, PT says he "got the
            > > > finish of my initiations."
            > > > I'm assuming this was
            > > > 8-12!
            > > >
            > > > Now, maybe I'm wrong
            > > > that Sudar Singh was the
            > > > 970th LEM.
            > > >
            > > > Maybe Sudar was the 969th
            > > > LEM and Rebazar (as fill-in)
            > > > was the 970th LEM since
            > > > he, supposedly, gave PT
            > > > the 12th and made him
            > > > the LEM.
            > > >
            > > > However, was Twitchell
            > > > the LEM in 1951? It sure
            > > > doesn't seem so according
            > > > to Twitchell's writings.
            > > > Or, did Twit get the 12th
            > > > but Not the LEM position?
            > > >
            > > > This would mean that Rebazar
            > > > was the LEM from 1937-65!
            > > > The truth is, it's all a lie!
            > > >
            > > > Plus, let's remember this
            > > > too. Twitchell is telling all
            > > > of this in a series of interviews
            > > > in June, 1971 (as the Mahanta).
            > > > And, this was just a few
            > > > months before his untimely
            > > > death. Lies and more lies up
            > > > to his death!
            > > >
            > > > Anyway, pages 38-48, 70-71
            > > > have all of the info one needs.
            > > > Just remember that Twitchell
            > > > was born in 1908 (close enough),
            > > > and that in June, 1966 Kirpal
            > > > Singh (Paul's real Master)
            > > > returned PT's "The Tiger's Fang"
            > > > manuscript to him. Plus, it
            > > > was January, 1969 that the
            > > > word "Mahanta" was first used
            > > > in print by Twitchell.
            > > >
            > > > Think about this. If PT was in
            > > > training by Rebazar over all
            > > > these years, as he claimed, and
            > > > received 12 initiations from him,
            > > > one would think that RT would
            > > > have told PT about the 14th
            > > > level/plane and that PT would
            > > > have used the term "Mahanta"
            > > > before 1969!
            > > >
            > > > Sure, anything can be debated,
            > > > but credibility goes a long way
            > > > in deciding if the person telling
            > > > you all this stuff can be trusted.
            > > > Twitchell was a known and proven
            > > > plagiarist and a liar as pointed
            > > > out by former RESA Ford Johnson,
            > > > by Doug Marman, and even by
            > > > Harold Klemp!
            > > >
            > > > Regardless of proven facts,
            > > > common sense, logic, and
            > > > past behavior, some people
            > > > will still believe this crap.
            > > > They need to believe in
            > > > something/anything bigger
            > > > and greater than themselves.
            > > > They allow their minds and
            > > > imaginations to be programmed
            > > > to expect and dream of
            > > > scenarios that are "spiritual."
            > > >
            > > > Prometheus
            > >
            > > "allen4447" wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hello Everyone,
            > > >
            > > > If you look at Paul Twitchell's "Spiritual Notebook" 1981 edition which I
            > believe is identical to older copies on page 106 you will see a 12th plain chart
            > that is almost identical to the AKATHA chart that's at:
            > > >
            > >
            > > >
            > http://www.akatha.com/akatha-god-worlds-chart-showing-lower-and-higher-plains.ht\
            > \
            > ml
            > > >
            > >
            > > > A look through the old Eckankar dictionary from 1973 shows I believe that
            > all AKATHA terms except AKATHA are listed. see:
            > > >
            > > http://www.akatha.com/akatha-glossary.html
            > > >
            > >
            > > > All that this proves is that AKATHA and Paul's old time Eckankar (pre 1972)
            > are as Prometheus stated almost identical. I believe that Sri Kahtifji would
            > probably agree, stating he holds the Rod of SRAOSHA power which is really the
            > same as the rod of Eck power that Paul Twichell held till 1971. I believe Sri
            > Kahtifji has also stated somewhere (not sure where) that AKATHA is really Old
            > time Eckankar (pre 1971) So AKATHA being similar to old time Eckankar this is
            > not something AKATHA is trying to hid from anyone.
            > >
            > > > So all we are left with is who believes what?
            > >
            > > > This is the problem with debating anything of a spiritual nature whether its
            > AKATHA, Eckankar, Christianity, Buddhism, etc.
            > > >
            > > > I am no fan of the "New Eckankar" that Klemp created.
            > >
            > > > I am a former Eck chela for 29 years I'm glad I got out! I do not recommend
            > the "New Klemp Eckankar"
            > >
            > > > But I have to say in all honesty from my viewpoint Paul Twichell was a
            > Spiritual Giant.
            > >
            > > > And so is Sri Kahtifji. I know most of you will probably disagree but this
            > is the nature of Spiritual Debating. Or Discussion : ) How can anyone ever win
            > an augment about Spirituality?
            > >
            > > > All you can do is find a path that makes seems to you and feels right to you
            > and give it a try and see where it leads you. Some chose to follow "Science"
            > what ever that means. Others AKATHA. Others Eckankar or Christian Mysticism or
            > what ever. I frankly can't blame some of you for being so annoyed with the new
            > Eckankar as I agree there is a lot of nonsense going on.
            > >
            > > > But some of us are God seekers who truly desire to find God. And so it goes
            > we go down all kinds of avenues trying to find answers to questions that seem
            > almost impossible to answer!
            > >
            > > > AKATHA has done more for me over the last 3 months then Eckankar did over
            > the last 29 years.
            > >
            > > > But its an individual thing and we all need to find our own path what ever
            > the word Path means to us individually.
            > > >
            > > > Allen
            > > >
            > > >
            > > prometheus wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > Hello All,
            > > > > Just Google: Living SRAOSHA
            > > > > Master and the site comes up.
            > > > >
            > > > > This guy copied Paul's God
            > > > > World Chart, which was copied
            > > > > and plagiarized info, and then
            > > > > tweaked it by adding a couple
            > > > > of Higher Planes that Twit, Darwin,
            > > > > and Klemp had overlooked.
            > > > >
            > > > > After all, Why should Sugmad
            > > > > reside on the 10th Plane (ANAMI
            > > > > LOK) and not a higher one when
            > > > > the LEM is of the 12th Plane and
            > > > > the Mahanta of the 14th Plane!
            > > > >
            > > > > The Living Sraosha Master (LSM),
            > > > > [BTW-SRAOSHA means ECK, see
            > > > > pg. 200 of the 1998 EK Lexicon
            > > > > and page 51 of The Path of the
            > > > > Masters] is just another conman.
            > > > >
            > > > > Anyway, what's funny is that
            > > > > anyone can simply insert their
            > > > > own name in place of this guy's
            > > > > and who's to disprove his "inner"
            > > > > experiences and the story he's
            > > > > spinning? It like with Twitchell's
            > > > > bullshit which Darwin and Klemp
            > > > > inherited by playing-the-game.
            > > > >
            > > > > So, Twitchell's and Klemp's "God
            > > > > Worlds Chart" i.e. "Worlds of ECK"
            > > > > goes to the 10th Plane. This below
            > > > > chart goes to the 12th Plane. The
            > > > > 12th Plane is the AKSHAR and the
            > > > > 11th is a derivative of this... I forget
            > > > > exactly what it was. In any case
            > > > > AKSHAR means SUGMAD and it
            > > > > can be found in "Path" on pages
            > > > > 264, 284, and 305.
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > **********************
            > > > > AKATHA God Worlds Chart - Lower and Higher Planes
            > > > > A message from Sri Kahtifji, the Mahaji, the 973rd Living SRAOSHA Master
            > regarding the God Worlds Chart
            > > > >
            > > > > "The AKATHA God Worlds chart is very important insofar as the chela
            > (student of AKATHA) needs to see it in order to know how to negotiate through
            > the God Worlds. It is especially important to manoeuvre through the lower worlds
            > getting to the Soul Plane as quickly as possible. Still that paradox exists
            > regarding the essence of man as Soul wherein each one is the Sound and Light of
            > SRAOSHA and therefore, dwells really upon the Soul Plane. The problem is that
            > those outside AKATHA do not know it. We are fortunate to have this God knowlege,
            > the Para-Vidya, in AKATHA. Still Soul needs to see the God Worlds
            > superstructure for the true matrix of the universe. This mapping is very old,
            > older than time itself. Hence, we again are fortunate that Paulji (Paul
            > Twitchell) was the pioneer for this mapping in the recent past. Otherwise, we
            > would not know were to go on the inner. The chela should really appreciate that
            > we know were to go spiritually in AKATHA."
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > You can view the AKATHA GOD WORLDS CHART by clicking on the PDF link below
            > or viewing in Scribd.
            > > > >
            > > > > the_god_worlds_of_akatha_31.pdf
            > > > > Download File
            >
          • Tyson
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 13, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Allen and All,
              > You have, obviously, taken
              > and swallowed the bait along
              > with the hook, line, and sinker.
              > You've got blinders on, which
              > is curious. Perhaps you became
              > or saw yourself disenfranchised
              > regarding higher initiations while
              > under the Klempster?
              >
              > Anyway, I'll respond to your
              > comments below:
              >
              >
              > allen wrote:
              > Hello Prometheus and the whole group.
              >
              > First off I wanted to thank you for letting me express my self even though I
              > know many of you if not all of you don't agree with me!
              >
              > ME: True.
              >
              > A:
              > Anyway this is a good dialog and I think you for at least entertaining my
              > viewpoint.
              >
              > ME: I find your dialog (diatribe)
              > to be unentertaining, redundant
              > and tedious.
              >
              > A:
              > I do have Difficulties of Becoming the living ECK master.
              > I have Ford's book. Ect.
              >
              > ME: When's the last time you "read"
              > these books? How about "The Path
              > of the Masters" by Julian P. Johnson?
              >
              > A:
              > Most of the criticism I have seen about Paul Twitchell I find quite amusing.
              > This is what happens when we fail to learn Soul Travel or what AKATHA calls
              > Sahaji and we try and figure out this world through our physical senses. From
              > the lower states of consciousness illusion rains supreme and we fall for it like
              > a child falls for a cheap magic show in Vegas.
              >
              > ME: Who says that I, or others
              > on this site, who are critical of
              > your narrow, judgmental, and
              > elitist views don't know how to
              > Soul travel? How do you "know"
              > what Akatha (i.e. God, Whatever)
              > calls anything or says? Funny that
              > you used the analogy of a cheap
              > magic show in Vegas... it's a
              > Freudian slip that points out that
              > you are caught up with the illusion
              > of your beliefs.
              >
              > A:
              > I would also like to say that the idea that Paul Twitchell copied most of his
              > stuff from other Authors is ridiculous.
              >
              > ME: That's a really close-minded
              > remark. This site, in the links,
              > (and files if you are a site member)
              > has info showing PT's books with
              > plagiarisms. Too bad you don't have
              > a copy of The Path of the Masters
              > but I think someone put it up in pdf
              > in the links. Therefore, there's actual
              > proof that your hero was a liar, thief,
              > and poser!
              >
              >
              > A:
              > All one has to do is read all his books, discourses articles and listen to all
              > his tapes and one realizes that he produced an amazing amount of materials over
              > a very short time.
              >
              > ME: Don't be so foolish! PT copied
              > and paraphrased other peoples
              > info, experiences, and research.
              > He substituted and changed names,
              > words, letters, added, omitted, etc.,
              > etc. This was all pointed out in Ford's
              > book. Thus, either you did a speed
              > read, couldn't handle the truth and
              > are in denial like most ECKists,
              > or you're lying about having read
              > "Confessions of a God-Seeker."
              >
              > A:
              > Paul called Eckankar the Ancient Science of Soul Travel.
              > Any Scientist will tell you that Science is based on truth and not on
              > originality!
              >
              > ME: No, not really. Science is
              > based upon empirical evidence,
              > proven theories, and being able
              > to reproduce results. According
              > to your view Edison wasn't very
              > original.
              >
              > A:
              > Ironically Paul Twitchell still managed to be one of the most original thinkers
              > ever to grace this dark planet!
              >
              >
              > ME: It's ironical that you would
              > use "ironically" when promoting
              > a conman, liar, wannabe, and
              > plagiarist! BTW- I've got a bridge
              > that I'd like to sell you.
              >
              >
              > A:
              > Science builds upon Truth. So since truth is contained EVERYWHERE mixed with
              > UNTRUTH to say that Paul copied from others is ridiculous since all Science
              > copies from the universal truth!
              >
              > ME: Actually Twit used, mostly,
              > half-truths and fiction. However,
              > when someone uses word for word
              > paragraphs, like Twit, I'd say that
              > he "copied." If you ever attended
              > college you'd know that plagiarism
              > was unethical and not allowed.
              > It's unoriginal, lazy and dishonest
              > to use someone else's words, research,
              > experiences, and thoughts and,
              > especially, not give them credit
              > in a footnote.
              >
              > A:
              > As far as Paul's tendency to distort "reality" all I can say is I have had
              > numerous inner experiences with him and Sri Kahtifji through the spiritual
              > Exercises of AKATHA and these types of things are useless to argue since how
              > could you possibly understand or known my experiences? You do not. No fault of
              > your own of course.
              >
              >
              > ME: You're comments are
              > arrogant (vain and Astral)!
              > It's a two-way street. You
              > don't know of my experiences
              > either. But I do know that
              > Kahtif is a phony and poser.
              > His S.E.s are no more "spiritual"
              > or enlightening as anyone
              > else's. It's subjective and
              > illusionistic and pure fantasy.
              > Your fault is not having
              > an open mind. Your need
              > is to be be codependent.
              > You sound like one of Klemp's
              > ECKists!
              >
              > A:
              > If Paul Twitchell did change his stories around how does that in any way
              > invalidate who he was spiritually.
              >
              >
              > ME: PT did change his stories.
              > He was a liar and a manipulator
              > and, it seems, a spiritual wannabe.
              >
              > If someone cannot live a truthful
              > life, then, they are living a lie.
              >
              > Plus, let me point this out.
              > In "Difficulties Of Becoming
              > The Living ECK Master" PT
              > states (pgs. 52-56) that when
              > in the Navy during WWII he
              > created chaos and problems
              > with his paperwork and played
              > mental and psychological
              > games with people in order
              > to get out of work or duty
              > assignments. This was during
              > war time! These disruptions
              > are not only narcissistic but
              > are what the enemy would do...
              > not someone who had claimed
              > to have received the 2nd initiation
              > in 1923 and who, supposedly,
              > had visitations with Inner Masters
              > and was destined as a "spiritual"
              > master. Nope! Twitchell was
              > always a narcissist and liar first,
              > a conman & self-promoter
              > second, and maybe, a spiritual
              > seeker third.
              >
              >
              > A:
              > Again the analogy of a virtuoso violinist.
              > If a virtuoso violinist tells you he is going to give a recital in Carnegie Hall
              > on the 23rd of May, and you find out later no such concert is planed on such a
              > date… does that make him any less talented as a violinist? Does that make his
              > music bad? Does that mean his notes are out of tune of sour?
              >
              >
              > ME: First, I don't buy your analogy.
              > That's like a "Christian" using the
              > Bible to prove a point because it's
              > "the word of God." I don't buy that
              > either! BTW- Where's Mozart fit-in?
              > Did he take lessons?
              >
              > You, as Soul, is the only teacher
              > you need, in conjunction with Spirit.
              >
              > A:
              > Paul Twitchell was definitely an enigma and a mystery but his spiritual
              > ability's and his ability to express truth where amazing.
              >
              >
              > ME: Reread Ford's book... slowly
              > this time. Digest it. Contemplate/
              > Meditate upon it. Take your time...
              > weeks. However, don't bother with
              > the last 1/4 of the book. Paul was
              > no mystery, although, that's what
              > he was trying to portray. Do you
              > have a copy of the SHARIYAT 1?
              > Look at the index - Mahanta, birth
              > of. Paul rewrote it so that he was
              > adopted and was, supposedly, born
              > on a riverboat and left to drift like
              > Moses.
              >
              > A:
              > Has anyone hear actually read Paul's works carefully with an effort to
              > understand what he was saying? Reading the Tigers Fang, Dialogs with the
              > Master, The Far Country, letters to Gail 1, 2, and 3 and listening to a few of
              > his lecture tapes and its hard for me to understand how anyone could miss Paul
              > Twitchell's amazing gift at expressing great truths!
              >
              > ME: Yes! The Tiger's Fang was
              > fictionalized and embellished.
              > This is why Kirpal Singh had
              > problems with it. Don't you read?
              > There is a letter from Kirpal
              > stating this and why Kirpal
              > had the falling out with Twit
              > and still had the manuscript
              > in 1966.
              >
              > A:
              > I feel the same way about Sri Kahtifji after listening to him speak for hours on
              > end and reading his works.
              >
              >
              > ME: You were brainwashed.
              > This is a typical cult brainwashing
              > technique to wear you down.
              > Afterwards, you feel dazed
              > and attribute this to having
              > Soul traveled to higher spiritual
              > realms.
              >
              > A:
              > Yes its sad what Darwin and especially Harold have done to Eckankar since 1971.
              > But Sri Paul Twitchell was not the problem. Sri Kahtifji is not the problem.
              > Blame it on Harold Klemp if you must blame it on anyone. He has ruined
              > something special.
              >
              > ME: Twitchell started the whole
              > scam so he was the problem!
              > Kahtif is as much a poser as
              > is Klemp. No, I blame it on Paul
              > and Gail. Mostly Gail because
              > she encouraged Paul do it in
              > order to make the big bucks
              > that she wanted.
              >
              > A:
              > But its back as AKATHA and for that I am great full.
              > I know most of you if not all of you will disagree with me on most if not all of
              > this.
              >
              >
              > ME: True! Been there, done that,
              > bought the books, tee shirt, and
              > even the coffee mug!
              >
              > A:
              > Such paradoxes of the universe make life very interesting. Non of you know the
              > experiences I have had so its hard for you to understand my viewpoint on this.
              > But in a nut shell if point (A) is true and point (B) is also true point (A) can
              > not invalidate point (B).
              >
              >
              > ME: Bullshit! Twit used the paradox
              > ploy to twist the truth and you've merely
              > bought into it. He's playing a game...
              > (a shell game) and the joke's on you.
              >
              > A:
              > And this is what we call a paradox or another way of putting it a
              > misunderstanding of reality!
              >
              > ME: You're in denial.
              > But I understand your
              > need for a spot in the
              > hierarchy.
              >
              > A:
              > Such is the nature of the human mind. A pitiful instrument that we try and use
              > until we learn Soul Travel or in AKATHA known as Sahaji. As Paul Twichell stated
              > the mind is an excellent servant but a poor master.
              >
              > ME: Paul stole that adage
              > as well. Why don't you know
              > that?
              >
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              >
              > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Allen and All,
              > > Let's face it. This Sri
              > > Kahtifji is either a
              > > conman, like Twitchell,
              > > or is deluded. Maybe
              > > a combo of both!
              > >
              > > Allen, if you would take
              > > the time to look at the
              > > PT info, older post below,
              > > from his June, 1971 interviews
              > > you would see that Twit
              > > was a liar, poser, conman
              > > and a self-promoter.
              > > These quotes were taken
              > > from "Difficulties Of
              > > Becoming The Living
              > > ECK Master."
              > >
              > > [If you have "Difficulties"
              > > see pgs. 38-48, 70-71]
              > >
              > > 1. Twitchell never travelled
              > > to India, especially, with his
              > > sister and, especially, from
              > > Paris, France, when he was
              > > 15 years old (circa 1923).
              > > Kay-Dee was in school in
              > > Paris, Kentucky.
              > >
              > > This means that Twitchell
              > > never received his 2nd initiation
              > > (at this time or place) from
              > > either Sudar, or Kirpal Singh.
              > > It didn't happen!
              > >
              > > 2. Therefore, any follow-up
              > > (2nd & 3rd) visits to India
              > > (1947 & 1951) to see Rebazar
              > > and to receive initiations 3-7
              > > and then 8-12 were also lies.
              > > Sudar was actually Kirpal Singh
              > > and he was Paul's real Master
              > > from 1955-1965, but Kirpal
              > > had a falling out with Paul due
              > > to exaggerations and pure
              > > fiction PT used in his Tiger's
              > > Fang manuscript. PT has Sudar
              > > (Kirpal) dying in 1937, but Kirpal
              > > actually outlived Paul by three
              > > years and died in 1974 at 80
              > > years old while Paul was 63.
              > >
              > > Rebazar (among other EK
              > > Masters like Fubbi) were/are
              > > imaginary characters created
              > > by Twitchell in order to establish
              > > an ancient "line of Mastership."
              > > Rebazar was created so that
              > > Twitchell could initiate himself
              > > as a 12th Plane "Master." Later,
              > > 1969, Paul made himself a
              > > 14th Plane Mahanta/Master.
              > >
              > > These ego-driven conmen always
              > > need to one-up the competition
              > > by giving themselves more and
              > > more phony initiation numbers
              > > and more glorified titles! Their
              > > deluded followers will believe
              > > anything they say. Look around,
              > > it's the same with all religions!
              > >
              > > 3. Anyone believing Twitchell
              > > was a "Master" and was not a
              > > liar, or that Rebazar and Fubbi
              > > actually exist are either delusional,
              > > stupid, fearful, insane, weak
              > > minded, are conmen themselves,
              > > or are a combo of all the above!
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > > BTW- Allen, I really doubt that
              > > you've done a research of info
              > > in "Difficulties Of Becoming The
              > > Living ECK Master?" Do you have
              > > this book in order to verify the
              > > info I've posted from pages 38-48
              > > and 70-71? Really, Paul was never
              > > in Paris, France at 15 years of age!
              > >
              > > Have you ever read "The Path of
              > > the Masters" or Ford Johnson's
              > > book "Confessions of a God-Seeker?"
              > > I you had read these (not a speed
              > > read like Twit would do), and kept
              > > an open mind while doing so, you
              > > would begin to see through all of
              > > Twitchell's bullshit and that of his
              > > Eckankar con.
              > >
              > >
              > > ********
              > > Just thought I'd bring
              > > this back to the front
              > > page for another look.
              > >
              > > This LSM character is
              > > saying that there's no
              > > empirical evidence showing
              > > that Paul wasn't what
              > > he claimed. That's not
              > > true! We have Paul's
              > > own words that prove
              > > he lied about and stole
              > > almost everything that
              > > became Eckankar. Would
              > > a spiritual "Master" lie
              > > or would a conman lie?
              > >
              > > What's the difference
              > > between the two?
              > > One is deluded while
              > > the other is dishonest!
              > > Both are vain and toot
              > > their own horns.
              > >
              > > It's also interesting that
              > > this Akshar Master is using
              > > ECK Master Fubbi Quantz
              > > as the (replacement) 972nd
              > > LSM while he's the 973rd
              > > replacement for Klemp!
              > > Too funny!
              > >
              > > p.s. What's also funny is
              > > that this LSM states that
              > > PT was in charge (as LEM
              > > or LSM?) from 65-72. Did
              > > he just round it off to 72?
              > > Or should it have been
              > > 66-72?
              > >
              > > prometheus wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello Etznab,
              > > > I'll have to agree that
              > > > Sudar Singh was really
              > > > Kirpal Singh. Paul lied
              > > > about who Sudar was.
              > > >
              > > > BTW- Sudar Singh is
              > > > listed in Klemp's ECK
              > > > Lexicon as the LEM who
              > > > taught Twitchell, thus,
              > > > it seems that Kirpal
              > > > (Sudar) was actually
              > > > the 970th LEM since
              > > > Rebazar is fictitious.
              > > >
              > > > Also, in Twitchell's June
              > > > 1971 interviews printed
              > > > in:
              > > >
              > > > "Difficulties Of Becoming
              > > > The Living ECK Master."
              > > >
              > > > PT stated that he was 15
              > > > years old (pg. 48) when
              > > > he traveled from "Paris"
              > > > to India where PT states
              > > > he got his 2nd initiation
              > > > from Sudar Singh. All of
              > > > this distorted info comes
              > > > directly from Twitchell's
              > > > own mouth!
              > > >
              > > > Even the ECKankar spokes-
              > > > person, Doug Marman,
              > > > has stated that Twitchell
              > > > was lying and misdirected
              > > > people into thinking this
              > > > was Paris, France (where
              > > > PT went to visit his sister)
              > > > when it was actually Paris,
              > > > Kentucky! I, also, doubt
              > > > that Twit flew from Paris,
              > > > Kentucky to India! When
              > > > you catch a person in one
              > > > lie it makes you wonder
              > > > how many other lies there
              > > > were/are.
              > > >
              > > > Klemp states that PT was
              > > > born in 1908, but it really
              > > > doesn't matter because it
              > > > was between 1908-1910.
              > > >
              > > > Let's say PT was born
              > > > in 1908. This means
              > > > that when he was 15
              > > > (pg.48) and got his 2nd
              > > > initiation from Sudar
              > > > the year was 1923.
              > > >
              > > > Note: Klemp mentions
              > > > in the Paul Twitchell
              > > > (born 1908) info on
              > > > Eckankar.org that PT
              > > > was "Twisting Facts"
              > > > and "Exaggerating"
              > > > at age 27 (1935) to
              > > > get into "Who's Who
              > > > in Kentucky" and that
              > > > Twitchell had never
              > > > been all that far from
              > > > home. Paul's first wife
              > > > stated that he had
              > > > never been outside
              > > > of the U.S. until he
              > > > joined the Navy in 1942.
              > > >
              > > > PT claims that on the
              > > > next (2nd) trip to India
              > > > it was 1947. This was
              > > > when he met Rebazar
              > > > and received initiations
              > > > 3-7.
              > > >
              > > > BTW- It seems that Twitchell
              > > > was a 2nd initiate from
              > > > 1923-1947....{Sudar had
              > > > died in 1937 (pg. 45)}
              > > >
              > > > I wonder who PT's master
              > > > was from 1937-47 since
              > > > he says he didn't meet RT
              > > > until 1947?
              > > >
              > > > And, this means that Twitchell
              > > > was a 2nd initiate for 24
              > > > years... 1923-47!
              > > >
              > > > And, Rebazar was the fill-
              > > > in LEM since 1937.
              > > >
              > > > PT claims to have gone
              > > > from 3rd to 7th initiate
              > > > in six to seven months!
              > > >
              > > > On Twitchell's 3rd trip
              > > > to India (1951), to meet
              > > > Rebazar for the second
              > > > time, PT says he "got the
              > > > finish of my initiations."
              > > > I'm assuming this was
              > > > 8-12!
              > > >
              > > > Now, maybe I'm wrong
              > > > that Sudar Singh was the
              > > > 970th LEM.
              > > >
              > > > Maybe Sudar was the 969th
              > > > LEM and Rebazar (as fill-in)
              > > > was the 970th LEM since
              > > > he, supposedly, gave PT
              > > > the 12th and made him
              > > > the LEM.
              > > >
              > > > However, was Twitchell
              > > > the LEM in 1951? It sure
              > > > doesn't seem so according
              > > > to Twitchell's writings.
              > > > Or, did Twit get the 12th
              > > > but Not the LEM position?
              > > >
              > > > This would mean that Rebazar
              > > > was the LEM from 1937-65!
              > > > The truth is, it's all a lie!
              > > >
              > > > Plus, let's remember this
              > > > too. Twitchell is telling all
              > > > of this in a series of interviews
              > > > in June, 1971 (as the Mahanta).
              > > > And, this was just a few
              > > > months before his untimely
              > > > death. Lies and more lies up
              > > > to his death!
              > > >
              > > > Anyway, pages 38-48, 70-71
              > > > have all of the info one needs.
              > > > Just remember that Twitchell
              > > > was born in 1908 (close enough),
              > > > and that in June, 1966 Kirpal
              > > > Singh (Paul's real Master)
              > > > returned PT's "The Tiger's Fang"
              > > > manuscript to him. Plus, it
              > > > was January, 1969 that the
              > > > word "Mahanta" was first used
              > > > in print by Twitchell.
              > > >
              > > > Think about this. If PT was in
              > > > training by Rebazar over all
              > > > these years, as he claimed, and
              > > > received 12 initiations from him,
              > > > one would think that RT would
              > > > have told PT about the 14th
              > > > level/plane and that PT would
              > > > have used the term "Mahanta"
              > > > before 1969!
              > > >
              > > > Sure, anything can be debated,
              > > > but credibility goes a long way
              > > > in deciding if the person telling
              > > > you all this stuff can be trusted.
              > > > Twitchell was a known and proven
              > > > plagiarist and a liar as pointed
              > > > out by former RESA Ford Johnson,
              > > > by Doug Marman, and even by
              > > > Harold Klemp!
              > > >
              > > > Regardless of proven facts,
              > > > common sense, logic, and
              > > > past behavior, some people
              > > > will still believe this crap.
              > > > They need to believe in
              > > > something/anything bigger
              > > > and greater than themselves.
              > > > They allow their minds and
              > > > imaginations to be programmed
              > > > to expect and dream of
              > > > scenarios that are "spiritual."
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              > >
              > > "allen4447" wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hello Everyone,
              > > >
              > > > If you look at Paul Twitchell's "Spiritual Notebook" 1981 edition which I
              > believe is identical to older copies on page 106 you will see a 12th plain chart
              > that is almost identical to the AKATHA chart that's at:
              > > >
              > >
              > > >
              > http://www.akatha.com/akatha-god-worlds-chart-showing-lower-and-higher-plains.ht\
              > \
              > ml
              > > >
              > >
              > > > A look through the old Eckankar dictionary from 1973 shows I believe that
              > all AKATHA terms except AKATHA are listed. see:
              > > >
              > > http://www.akatha.com/akatha-glossary.html
              > > >
              > >
              > > > All that this proves is that AKATHA and Paul's old time Eckankar (pre 1972)
              > are as Prometheus stated almost identical. I believe that Sri Kahtifji would
              > probably agree, stating he holds the Rod of SRAOSHA power which is really the
              > same as the rod of Eck power that Paul Twichell held till 1971. I believe Sri
              > Kahtifji has also stated somewhere (not sure where) that AKATHA is really Old
              > time Eckankar (pre 1971) So AKATHA being similar to old time Eckankar this is
              > not something AKATHA is trying to hid from anyone.
              > >
              > > > So all we are left with is who believes what?
              > >
              > > > This is the problem with debating anything of a spiritual nature whether its
              > AKATHA, Eckankar, Christianity, Buddhism, etc.
              > > >
              > > > I am no fan of the "New Eckankar" that Klemp created.
              > >
              > > > I am a former Eck chela for 29 years I'm glad I got out! I do not recommend
              > the "New Klemp Eckankar"
              > >
              > > > But I have to say in all honesty from my viewpoint Paul Twichell was a
              > Spiritual Giant.
              > >
              > > > And so is Sri Kahtifji. I know most of you will probably disagree but this
              > is the nature of Spiritual Debating. Or Discussion : ) How can anyone ever win
              > an augment about Spirituality?
              > >
              > > > All you can do is find a path that makes seems to you and feels right to you
              > and give it a try and see where it leads you. Some chose to follow "Science"
              > what ever that means. Others AKATHA. Others Eckankar or Christian Mysticism or
              > what ever. I frankly can't blame some of you for being so annoyed with the new
              > Eckankar as I agree there is a lot of nonsense going on.
              > >
              > > > But some of us are God seekers who truly desire to find God. And so it goes
              > we go down all kinds of avenues trying to find answers to questions that seem
              > almost impossible to answer!
              > >
              > > > AKATHA has done more for me over the last 3 months then Eckankar did over
              > the last 29 years.
              > >
              > > > But its an individual thing and we all need to find our own path what ever
              > the word Path means to us individually.
              > > >
              > > > Allen
              > > >
              > > >
              > > prometheus wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Hello All,
              > > > > Just Google: Living SRAOSHA
              > > > > Master and the site comes up.
              > > > >
              > > > > This guy copied Paul's God
              > > > > World Chart, which was copied
              > > > > and plagiarized info, and then
              > > > > tweaked it by adding a couple
              > > > > of Higher Planes that Twit, Darwin,
              > > > > and Klemp had overlooked.
              > > > >
              > > > > After all, Why should Sugmad
              > > > > reside on the 10th Plane (ANAMI
              > > > > LOK) and not a higher one when
              > > > > the LEM is of the 12th Plane and
              > > > > the Mahanta of the 14th Plane!
              > > > >
              > > > > The Living Sraosha Master (LSM),
              > > > > [BTW-SRAOSHA means ECK, see
              > > > > pg. 200 of the 1998 EK Lexicon
              > > > > and page 51 of The Path of the
              > > > > Masters] is just another conman.
              > > > >
              > > > > Anyway, what's funny is that
              > > > > anyone can simply insert their
              > > > > own name in place of this guy's
              > > > > and who's to disprove his "inner"
              > > > > experiences and the story he's
              > > > > spinning? It like with Twitchell's
              > > > > bullshit which Darwin and Klemp
              > > > > inherited by playing-the-game.
              > > > >
              > > > > So, Twitchell's and Klemp's "God
              > > > > Worlds Chart" i.e. "Worlds of ECK"
              > > > > goes to the 10th Plane. This below
              > > > > chart goes to the 12th Plane. The
              > > > > 12th Plane is the AKSHAR and the
              > > > > 11th is a derivative of this... I forget
              > > > > exactly what it was. In any case
              > > > > AKSHAR means SUGMAD and it
              > > > > can be found in "Path" on pages
              > > > > 264, 284, and 305.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > **********************
              > > > > AKATHA God Worlds Chart - Lower and Higher Planes
              > > > > A message from Sri Kahtifji, the Mahaji, the 973rd Living SRAOSHA Master
              > regarding the God Worlds Chart
              > > > >
              > > > > "The AKATHA God Worlds chart is very important insofar as the chela
              > (student of AKATHA) needs to see it in order to know how to negotiate through
              > the God Worlds. It is especially important to manoeuvre through the lower worlds
              > getting to the Soul Plane as quickly as possible. Still that paradox exists
              > regarding the essence of man as Soul wherein each one is the Sound and Light of
              > SRAOSHA and therefore, dwells really upon the Soul Plane. The problem is that
              > those outside AKATHA do not know it. We are fortunate to have this God knowlege,
              > the Para-Vidya, in AKATHA. Still Soul needs to see the God Worlds
              > superstructure for the true matrix of the universe. This mapping is very old,
              > older than time itself. Hence, we again are fortunate that Paulji (Paul
              > Twitchell) was the pioneer for this mapping in the recent past. Otherwise, we
              > would not know were to go on the inner. The chela should really appreciate that
              > we know were to go spiritually in AKATHA."
              > > > >*( Abu Njoroge Tammuz- The map of these worlds was borrowed from hinduism that states the universe itself is the body of Purusha. We are the micro of the macro. Each chakra represents a God world. When you get to the God worlds Paul and Akatha made embellishments to seam like one of there tailor made masters is resposible there. The original Hinduism did not completly agree. In Sant Mat Sri Laksmi resides in the third Chakra. While in others she is Consort of Purusha who is Narayana who is the original Brahm or unmanifested Vishnu. You see Purusha is a Father God thus is not outside of duality. Take away the duality then his original state is Aswara or unmanifested divine spirit or Ek Ong Kar Sat Nam. In hindu theology Sat Nam and Sat Puusha are the same. Sat Nam is the spirit of Truth itself. You see nothing Ancient in your path except a new hindu doctrine that is easier for the western mind to adopt. It is embellished with fantasy to make a more enjoyable read but looses something vital for a real Truth Seeker. Your friend in Ek Ong Kar Abu Njoroge Tammuz.) > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > You can view the AKATHA GOD WORLDS CHART by clicking on the PDF link below
              > or viewing in Scribd.
              > > > >
              > > > > the_god_worlds_of_akatha_31.pdf
              > > > > Download File
              >
            • etznab@aol.com
              Prometheus wrote: ME: That s a really close-minded remark. This site, in the links, (and files if you are a site member) has info showing PT s books with
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 13, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Prometheus wrote:

                "ME: That's a really close-minded remark. This site, in the links, (and
                files if you are a site member) has info showing PT's books with
                plagiarisms. Too bad you don't have a copy of The Path of the Masters
                but I think someone put it up in pdf in the links. Therefore, there's
                actual proof that your hero was a liar, thief, and poser!"

                *********

                Allen,

                Here is an illustration with links. Look at the Vivekananda quote at
                top of p. 46 in The Path Of The Masters (This example was also given in
                Ford Johnson's book.)

                http://www.archive.org/stream/ThePathOfTheMasters/ThePathOfTheMasters#page/n37/mode/2up

                Compare it with Rebazar Tarzs in The Far Country middle of p. 129.

                http://www.archive.org/stream/farcountry017342mbp#page/n125/mode/2up

                Swami Vivekananda lived and died before Paul Twitchell was even born.
                However, in The Far Country there is Rebazar Tarzs sounding a lot like
                Swami Vivekananda. Explanation?

                I was in Eckankar for a long time and familiar with many of Paul
                Twitchell's writings. The first time I read The Path Of The Masters it
                was like major Deja Vu where I read so much of it before. The thing is,
                however, Julian Johnson's book predated Paul Twitchell's book by
                several years. And Rebazar Tarzs in many places comes out sounding a
                lot like that earlier book. Explanation?


                -----Original Message-----
                From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
                To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
                <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Fri, Jan 13, 2012 8:47 pm
                Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: I'm Surprised That Klemp
                (ECKankar) Isn't Suing Them!

                 
                Hello Allen and All,
                You have, obviously, taken
                and swallowed the bait along
                with the hook, line, and sinker.
                You've got blinders on, which
                is curious. Perhaps you became
                or saw yourself disenfranchised
                regarding higher initiations while
                under the Klempster?

                Anyway, I'll respond to your
                comments below:

                allen wrote:
                Hello Prometheus and the whole group.

                First off I wanted to thank you for letting me express my self even
                though I
                know many of you if not all of you don't agree with me!

                ME: True.

                A:
                Anyway this is a good dialog and I think you for at least entertaining
                my
                viewpoint.

                ME: I find your dialog (diatribe)
                to be unentertaining, redundant
                and tedious.

                A:
                I do have Difficulties of Becoming the living ECK master.
                I have Ford's book. Ect.

                ME: When's the last time you "read"
                these books? How about "The Path
                of the Masters" by Julian P. Johnson?

                A:
                Most of the criticism I have seen about Paul Twitchell I find quite
                amusing.
                This is what happens when we fail to learn Soul Travel or what AKATHA
                calls
                Sahaji and we try and figure out this world through our physical
                senses. From
                the lower states of consciousness illusion rains supreme and we fall
                for it like
                a child falls for a cheap magic show in Vegas.

                ME: Who says that I, or others
                on this site, who are critical of
                your narrow, judgmental, and
                elitist views don't know how to
                Soul travel? How do you "know"
                what Akatha (i.e. God, Whatever)
                calls anything or says? Funny that
                you used the analogy of a cheap
                magic show in Vegas... it's a
                Freudian slip that points out that
                you are caught up with the illusion
                of your beliefs.

                A:
                I would also like to say that the idea that Paul Twitchell copied most
                of his
                stuff from other Authors is ridiculous.

                ME: That's a really close-minded
                remark. This site, in the links,
                (and files if you are a site member)
                has info showing PT's books with
                plagiarisms. Too bad you don't have
                a copy of The Path of the Masters
                but I think someone put it up in pdf
                in the links. Therefore, there's actual
                proof that your hero was a liar, thief,
                and poser!

                A:
                All one has to do is read all his books, discourses articles and listen
                to all
                his tapes and one realizes that he produced an amazing amount of
                materials over
                a very short time.

                ME: Don't be so foolish! PT copied
                and paraphrased other peoples
                info, experiences, and research.
                He substituted and changed names,
                words, letters, added, omitted, etc.,
                etc. This was all pointed out in Ford's
                book. Thus, either you did a speed
                read, couldn't handle the truth and
                are in denial like most ECKists,
                or you're lying about having read
                "Confessions of a God-Seeker."

                A:
                Paul called Eckankar the Ancient Science of Soul Travel.
                Any Scientist will tell you that Science is based on truth and not on
                originality!

                ME: No, not really. Science is
                based upon empirical evidence,
                proven theories, and being able
                to reproduce results. According
                to your view Edison wasn't very
                original.

                A:
                Ironically Paul Twitchell still managed to be one of the most original
                thinkers
                ever to grace this dark planet!

                ME: It's ironical that you would
                use "ironically" when promoting
                a conman, liar, wannabe, and
                plagiarist! BTW- I've got a bridge
                that I'd like to sell you.

                A:
                Science builds upon Truth. So since truth is contained EVERYWHERE mixed
                with
                UNTRUTH to say that Paul copied from others is ridiculous since all
                Science
                copies from the universal truth!

                ME: Actually Twit used, mostly,
                half-truths and fiction. However,
                when someone uses word for word
                paragraphs, like Twit, I'd say that
                he "copied." If you ever attended
                college you'd know that plagiarism
                was unethical and not allowed.
                It's unoriginal, lazy and dishonest
                to use someone else's words, research,
                experiences, and thoughts and,
                especially, not give them credit
                in a footnote.

                A:
                As far as Paul's tendency to distort "reality" all I can say is I have
                had
                numerous inner experiences with him and Sri Kahtifji through the
                spiritual
                Exercises of AKATHA and these types of things are useless to argue
                since how
                could you possibly understand or known my experiences? You do not. No
                fault of
                your own of course.

                ME: You're comments are
                arrogant (vain and Astral)!
                It's a two-way street. You
                don't know of my experiences
                either. But I do know that
                Kahtif is a phony and poser.
                His S.E.s are no more "spiritual"
                or enlightening as anyone
                else's. It's subjective and
                illusionistic and pure fantasy.
                Your fault is not having
                an open mind. Your need
                is to be be codependent.
                You sound like one of Klemp's
                ECKists!

                A:
                If Paul Twitchell did change his stories around how does that in any way
                invalidate who he was spiritually.

                ME: PT did change his stories.
                He was a liar and a manipulator
                and, it seems, a spiritual wannabe.

                If someone cannot live a truthful
                life, then, they are living a lie.

                Plus, let me point this out.
                In "Difficulties Of Becoming
                The Living ECK Master" PT
                states (pgs. 52-56) that when
                in the Navy during WWII he
                created chaos and problems
                with his paperwork and played
                mental and psychological
                games with people in order
                to get out of work or duty
                assignments. This was during
                war time! These disruptions
                are not only narcissistic but
                are what the enemy would do...
                not someone who had claimed
                to have received the 2nd initiation
                in 1923 and who, supposedly,
                had visitations with Inner Masters
                and was destined as a "spiritual"
                master. Nope! Twitchell was
                always a narcissist and liar first,
                a conman & self-promoter
                second, and maybe, a spiritual
                seeker third.

                A:
                Again the analogy of a virtuoso violinist.
                If a virtuoso violinist tells you he is going to give a recital in
                Carnegie Hall
                on the 23rd of May, and you find out later no such concert is planed on
                such a
                date… does that make him any less talented as a violinist? Does that
                make his
                music bad? Does that mean his notes are out of tune of sour?

                ME: First, I don't buy your analogy.
                That's like a "Christian" using the
                Bible to prove a point because it's
                "the word of God." I don't buy that
                either! BTW- Where's Mozart fit-in?
                Did he take lessons?

                You, as Soul, is the only teacher
                you need, in conjunction with Spirit.

                A:
                Paul Twitchell was definitely an enigma and a mystery but his spiritual
                ability's and his ability to express truth where amazing.

                ME: Reread Ford's book... slowly
                this time. Digest it. Contemplate/
                Meditate upon it. Take your time...
                weeks. However, don't bother with
                the last 1/4 of the book. Paul was
                no mystery, although, that's what
                he was trying to portray. Do you
                have a copy of the SHARIYAT 1?
                Look at the index - Mahanta, birth
                of. Paul rewrote it so that he was
                adopted and was, supposedly, born
                on a riverboat and left to drift like
                Moses.

                A:
                Has anyone hear actually read Paul's works carefully with an effort to
                understand what he was saying? Reading the Tigers Fang, Dialogs with the
                Master, The Far Country, letters to Gail 1, 2, and 3 and listening to a
                few of
                his lecture tapes and its hard for me to understand how anyone could
                miss Paul
                Twitchell's amazing gift at expressing great truths!

                ME: Yes! The Tiger's Fang was
                fictionalized and embellished.
                This is why Kirpal Singh had
                problems with it. Don't you read?
                There is a letter from Kirpal
                stating this and why Kirpal
                had the falling out with Twit
                and still had the manuscript
                in 1966.

                A:
                I feel the same way about Sri Kahtifji after listening to him speak for
                hours on
                end and reading his works.

                ME: You were brainwashed.
                This is a typical cult brainwashing
                technique to wear you down.
                Afterwards, you feel dazed
                and attribute this to having
                Soul traveled to higher spiritual
                realms.

                A:
                Yes its sad what Darwin and especially Harold have done to Eckankar
                since 1971.
                But Sri Paul Twitchell was not the problem. Sri Kahtifji is not the
                problem.
                Blame it on Harold Klemp if you must blame it on anyone. He has ruined
                something special.

                ME: Twitchell started the whole
                scam so he was the problem!
                Kahtif is as much a poser as
                is Klemp. No, I blame it on Paul
                and Gail. Mostly Gail because
                she encouraged Paul do it in
                order to make the big bucks
                that she wanted.

                A:
                But its back as AKATHA and for that I am great full.
                I know most of you if not all of you will disagree with me on most if
                not all of
                this.

                ME: True! Been there, done that,
                bought the books, tee shirt, and
                even the coffee mug!

                A:
                Such paradoxes of the universe make life very interesting. Non of you
                know the
                experiences I have had so its hard for you to understand my viewpoint
                on this.
                But in a nut shell if point (A) is true and point (B) is also true
                point (A) can
                not invalidate point (B).

                ME: Bullshit! Twit used the paradox
                ploy to twist the truth and you've merely
                bought into it. He's playing a game...
                (a shell game) and the joke's on you.

                A:
                And this is what we call a paradox or another way of putting it a
                misunderstanding of reality!

                ME: You're in denial.
                But I understand your
                need for a spot in the
                hierarchy.

                A:
                Such is the nature of the human mind. A pitiful instrument that we try
                and use
                until we learn Soul Travel or in AKATHA known as Sahaji. As Paul
                Twichell stated
                the mind is an excellent servant but a poor master.

                ME: Paul stole that adage
                as well. Why don't you know
                that?

                Prometheus

                <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Allen and All,
                > Let's face it. This Sri
                > Kahtifji is either a
                > conman, like Twitchell,
                > or is deluded. Maybe
                > a combo of both!
                >
                > Allen, if you would take
                > the time to look at the
                > PT info, older post below,
                > from his June, 1971 interviews
                > you would see that Twit
                > was a liar, poser, conman
                > and a self-promoter.
                > These quotes were taken
                > from "Difficulties Of
                > Becoming The Living
                > ECK Master."
                >
                > [If you have "Difficulties"
                > see pgs. 38-48, 70-71]
                >
                > 1. Twitchell never travelled
                > to India, especially, with his
                > sister and, especially, from
                > Paris, France, when he was
                > 15 years old (circa 1923).
                > Kay-Dee was in school in
                > Paris, Kentucky.
                >
                > This means that Twitchell
                > never received his 2nd initiation
                > (at this time or place) from
                > either Sudar, or Kirpal Singh.
                > It didn't happen!
                >
                > 2. Therefore, any follow-up
                > (2nd & 3rd) visits to India
                > (1947 & 1951) to see Rebazar
                > and to receive initiations 3-7
                > and then 8-12 were also lies.
                > Sudar was actually Kirpal Singh
                > and he was Paul's real Master
                > from 1955-1965, but Kirpal
                > had a falling out with Paul due
                > to exaggerations and pure
                > fiction PT used in his Tiger's
                > Fang manuscript. PT has Sudar
                > (Kirpal) dying in 1937, but Kirpal
                > actually outlived Paul by three
                > years and died in 1974 at 80
                > years old while Paul was 63.
                >
                > Rebazar (among other EK
                > Masters like Fubbi) were/are
                > imaginary characters created
                > by Twitchell in order to establish
                > an ancient "line of Mastership."
                > Rebazar was created so that
                > Twitchell could initiate himself
                > as a 12th Plane "Master." Later,
                > 1969, Paul made himself a
                > 14th Plane Mahanta/Master.
                >
                > These ego-driven conmen always
                > need to one-up the competition
                > by giving themselves more and
                > more phony initiation numbers
                > and more glorified titles! Their
                > deluded followers will believe
                > anything they say. Look around,
                > it's the same with all religions!
                >
                > 3. Anyone believing Twitchell
                > was a "Master" and was not a
                > liar, or that Rebazar and Fubbi
                > actually exist are either delusional,
                > stupid, fearful, insane, weak
                > minded, are conmen themselves,
                > or are a combo of all the above!
                >
                > Prometheus
                > BTW- Allen, I really doubt that
                > you've done a research of info
                > in "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                > Living ECK Master?" Do you have
                > this book in order to verify the
                > info I've posted from pages 38-48
                > and 70-71? Really, Paul was never
                > in Paris, France at 15 years of age!
                >
                > Have you ever read "The Path of
                > the Masters" or Ford Johnson's
                > book "Confessions of a God-Seeker?"
                > I you had read these (not a speed
                > read like Twit would do), and kept
                > an open mind while doing so, you
                > would begin to see through all of
                > Twitchell's bullshit and that of his
                > Eckankar con.
                >
                >
                > ********
                > Just thought I'd bring
                > this back to the front
                > page for another look.
                >
                > This LSM character is
                > saying that there's no
                > empirical evidence showing
                > that Paul wasn't what
                > he claimed. That's not
                > true! We have Paul's
                > own words that prove
                > he lied about and stole
                > almost everything that
                > became Eckankar. Would
                > a spiritual "Master" lie
                > or would a conman lie?
                >
                > What's the difference
                > between the two?
                > One is deluded while
                > the other is dishonest!
                > Both are vain and toot
                > their own horns.
                >
                > It's also interesting that
                > this Akshar Master is using
                > ECK Master Fubbi Quantz
                > as the (replacement) 972nd
                > LSM while he's the 973rd
                > replacement for Klemp!
                > Too funny!
                >
                > p.s. What's also funny is
                > that this LSM states that
                > PT was in charge (as LEM
                > or LSM?) from 65-72. Did
                > he just round it off to 72?
                > Or should it have been
                > 66-72?
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Etznab,
                > > I'll have to agree that
                > > Sudar Singh was really
                > > Kirpal Singh. Paul lied
                > > about who Sudar was.
                > >
                > > BTW- Sudar Singh is
                > > listed in Klemp's ECK
                > > Lexicon as the LEM who
                > > taught Twitchell, thus,
                > > it seems that Kirpal
                > > (Sudar) was actually
                > > the 970th LEM since
                > > Rebazar is fictitious.
                > >
                > > Also, in Twitchell's June
                > > 1971 interviews printed
                > > in:
                > >
                > > "Difficulties Of Becoming
                > > The Living ECK Master."
                > >
                > > PT stated that he was 15
                > > years old (pg. 48) when
                > > he traveled from "Paris"
                > > to India where PT states
                > > he got his 2nd initiation
                > > from Sudar Singh. All of
                > > this distorted info comes
                > > directly from Twitchell's
                > > own mouth!
                > >
                > > Even the ECKankar spokes-
                > > person, Doug Marman,
                > > has stated that Twitchell
                > > was lying and misdirected
                > > people into thinking this
                > > was Paris, France (where
                > > PT went to visit his sister)
                > > when it was actually Paris,
                > > Kentucky! I, also, doubt
                > > that Twit flew from Paris,
                > > Kentucky to India! When
                > > you catch a person in one
                > > lie it makes you wonder
                > > how many other lies there
                > > were/are.
                > >
                > > Klemp states that PT was
                > > born in 1908, but it really
                > > doesn't matter because it
                > > was between 1908-1910.
                > >
                > > Let's say PT was born
                > > in 1908. This means
                > > that when he was 15
                > > (pg.48) and got his 2nd
                > > initiation from Sudar
                > > the year was 1923.
                > >
                > > Note: Klemp mentions
                > > in the Paul Twitchell
                > > (born 1908) info on
                > > Eckankar.org that PT
                > > was "Twisting Facts"
                > > and "Exaggerating"
                > > at age 27 (1935) to
                > > get into "Who's Who
                > > in Kentucky" and that
                > > Twitchell had never
                > > been all that far from
                > > home. Paul's first wife
                > > stated that he had
                > > never been outside
                > > of the U.S. until he
                > > joined the Navy in 1942.
                > >
                > > PT claims that on the
                > > next (2nd) trip to India
                > > it was 1947. This was
                > > when he met Rebazar
                > > and received initiations
                > > 3-7.
                > >
                > > BTW- It seems that Twitchell
                > > was a 2nd initiate from
                > > 1923-1947....{Sudar had
                > > died in 1937 (pg. 45)}
                > >
                > > I wonder who PT's master
                > > was from 1937-47 since
                > > he says he didn't meet RT
                > > until 1947?
                > >
                > > And, this means that Twitchell
                > > was a 2nd initiate for 24
                > > years... 1923-47!
                > >
                > > And, Rebazar was the fill-
                > > in LEM since 1937.
                > >
                > > PT claims to have gone
                > > from 3rd to 7th initiate
                > > in six to seven months!
                > >
                > > On Twitchell's 3rd trip
                > > to India (1951), to meet
                > > Rebazar for the second
                > > time, PT says he "got the
                > > finish of my initiations."
                > > I'm assuming this was
                > > 8-12!
                > >
                > > Now, maybe I'm wrong
                > > that Sudar Singh was the
                > > 970th LEM.
                > >
                > > Maybe Sudar was the 969th
                > > LEM and Rebazar (as fill-in)
                > > was the 970th LEM since
                > > he, supposedly, gave PT
                > > the 12th and made him
                > > the LEM.
                > >
                > > However, was Twitchell
                > > the LEM in 1951? It sure
                > > doesn't seem so according
                > > to Twitchell's writings.
                > > Or, did Twit get the 12th
                > > but Not the LEM position?
                > >
                > > This would mean that Rebazar
                > > was the LEM from 1937-65!
                > > The truth is, it's all a lie!
                > >
                > > Plus, let's remember this
                > > too. Twitchell is telling all
                > > of this in a series of interviews
                > > in June, 1971 (as the Mahanta).
                > > And, this was just a few
                > > months before his untimely
                > > death. Lies and more lies up
                > > to his death!
                > >
                > > Anyway, pages 38-48, 70-71
                > > have all of the info one needs.
                > > Just remember that Twitchell
                > > was born in 1908 (close enough),
                > > and that in June, 1966 Kirpal
                > > Singh (Paul's real Master)
                > > returned PT's "The Tiger's Fang"
                > > manuscript to him. Plus, it
                > > was January, 1969 that the
                > > word "Mahanta" was first used
                > > in print by Twitchell.
                > >
                > > Think about this. If PT was in
                > > training by Rebazar over all
                > > these years, as he claimed, and
                > > received 12 initiations from him,
                > > one would think that RT would
                > > have told PT about the 14th
                > > level/plane and that PT would
                > > have used the term "Mahanta"
                > > before 1969!
                > >
                > > Sure, anything can be debated,
                > > but credibility goes a long way
                > > in deciding if the person telling
                > > you all this stuff can be trusted.
                > > Twitchell was a known and proven
                > > plagiarist and a liar as pointed
                > > out by former RESA Ford Johnson,
                > > by Doug Marman, and even by
                > > Harold Klemp!
                > >
                > > Regardless of proven facts,
                > > common sense, logic, and
                > > past behavior, some people
                > > will still believe this crap.
                > > They need to believe in
                > > something/anything bigger
                > > and greater than themselves.
                > > They allow their minds and
                > > imaginations to be programmed
                > > to expect and dream of
                > > scenarios that are "spiritual."
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                >
                > "allen4447" wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Everyone,
                > >
                > > If you look at Paul Twitchell's "Spiritual Notebook" 1981
                edition which I
                believe is identical to older copies on page 106 you will see a 12th
                plain chart
                that is almost identical to the AKATHA chart that's at:
                > >
                >
                > >
                http://www.akatha.com/akatha-god-worlds-chart-showing-lower-and-higher-plains.ht\
                \
                ml
                > >
                >
                > > A look through the old Eckankar dictionary from 1973 shows I
                believe that
                all AKATHA terms except AKATHA are listed. see:
                > >
                > http://www.akatha.com/akatha-glossary.html
                > >
                >
                > > All that this proves is that AKATHA and Paul's old time
                Eckankar (pre 1972)
                are as Prometheus stated almost identical. I believe that Sri Kahtifji
                would
                probably agree, stating he holds the Rod of SRAOSHA power which is
                really the
                same as the rod of Eck power that Paul Twichell held till 1971. I
                believe Sri
                Kahtifji has also stated somewhere (not sure where) that AKATHA is
                really Old
                time Eckankar (pre 1971) So AKATHA being similar to old time Eckankar
                this is
                not something AKATHA is trying to hid from anyone.
                >
                > > So all we are left with is who believes what?
                >
                > > This is the problem with debating anything of a spiritual
                nature whether its
                AKATHA, Eckankar, Christianity, Buddhism, etc.
                > >
                > > I am no fan of the "New Eckankar" that Klemp created.
                >
                > > I am a former Eck chela for 29 years I'm glad I got out! I do
                not recommend
                the "New Klemp Eckankar"
                >
                > > But I have to say in all honesty from my viewpoint Paul
                Twichell was a
                Spiritual Giant.
                >
                > > And so is Sri Kahtifji. I know most of you will probably
                disagree but this
                is the nature of Spiritual Debating. Or Discussion : ) How can anyone
                ever win
                an augment about Spirituality?
                >
                > > All you can do is find a path that makes seems to you and
                feels right to you
                and give it a try and see where it leads you. Some chose to follow
                "Science"
                what ever that means. Others AKATHA. Others Eckankar or Christian
                Mysticism or
                what ever. I frankly can't blame some of you for being so annoyed with
                the new
                Eckankar as I agree there is a lot of nonsense going on.
                >
                > > But some of us are God seekers who truly desire to find God.
                And so it goes
                we go down all kinds of avenues trying to find answers to questions
                that seem
                almost impossible to answer!
                >
                > > AKATHA has done more for me over the last 3 months then
                Eckankar did over
                the last 29 years.
                >
                > > But its an individual thing and we all need to find our own
                path what ever
                the word Path means to us individually.
                > >
                > > Allen
                > >
                > >
                > prometheus wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hello All,
                > > > Just Google: Living SRAOSHA
                > > > Master and the site comes up.
                > > >
                > > > This guy copied Paul's God
                > > > World Chart, which was copied
                > > > and plagiarized info, and then
                > > > tweaked it by adding a couple
                > > > of Higher Planes that Twit, Darwin,
                > > > and Klemp had overlooked.
                > > >
                > > > After all, Why should Sugmad
                > > > reside on the 10th Plane (ANAMI
                > > > LOK) and not a higher one when
                > > > the LEM is of the 12th Plane and
                > > > the Mahanta of the 14th Plane!
                > > >
                > > > The Living Sraosha Master (LSM),
                > > > [BTW-SRAOSHA means ECK, see
                > > > pg. 200 of the 1998 EK Lexicon
                > > > and page 51 of The Path of the
                > > > Masters] is just another conman.
                > > >
                > > > Anyway, what's funny is that
                > > > anyone can simply insert their
                > > > own name in place of this guy's
                > > > and who's to disprove his "inner"
                > > > experiences and the story he's
                > > > spinning? It like with Twitchell's
                > > > bullshit which Darwin and Klemp
                > > > inherited by playing-the-game.
                > > >
                > > > So, Twitchell's and Klemp's "God
                > > > Worlds Chart" i.e. "Worlds of ECK"
                > > > goes to the 10th Plane. This below
                > > > chart goes to the 12th Plane. The
                > > > 12th Plane is the AKSHAR and the
                > > > 11th is a derivative of this... I forget
                > > > exactly what it was. In any case
                > > > AKSHAR means SUGMAD and it
                > > > can be found in "Path" on pages
                > > > 264, 284, and 305.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > **********************
                > > > AKATHA God Worlds Chart - Lower and Higher Planes
                > > > A message from Sri Kahtifji, the Mahaji, the 973rd
                Living SRAOSHA Master
                regarding the God Worlds Chart
                > > >
                > > > "The AKATHA God Worlds chart is very important insofar
                as the chela
                (student of AKATHA) needs to see it in order to know how to negotiate
                through
                the God Worlds. It is especially important to manoeuvre through the
                lower worlds
                getting to the Soul Plane as quickly as possible. Still that paradox
                exists
                regarding the essence of man as Soul wherein each one is the Sound and
                Light of
                SRAOSHA and therefore, dwells really upon the Soul Plane. The problem
                is that
                those outside AKATHA do not know it. We are fortunate to have this God
                knowlege,
                the Para-Vidya, in AKATHA. Still Soul needs to see the God Worlds
                superstructure for the true matrix of the universe. This mapping is
                very old,
                older than time itself. Hence, we again are fortunate that Paulji (Paul
                Twitchell) was the pioneer for this mapping in the recent past.
                Otherwise, we
                would not know were to go on the inner. The chela should really
                appreciate that
                we know were to go spiritually in AKATHA."
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > You can view the AKATHA GOD WORLDS CHART by clicking on
                the PDF link below
                or viewing in Scribd.
                > > >
                > > > the_god_worlds_of_akatha_31.pdf
                > > > Download File
              • russrodnick
                It reminds me of franchising. Spiritual boilerplate. Just change a few names here and there and off you go. What astounds me is how high we can get off the
                Message 7 of 8 , Jan 22, 2012
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                  It reminds me of franchising. Spiritual boilerplate. Just change a few names here and there and off you go. What astounds me is how high we can get off the power of belief. We humans can be very suggestible which is why, we should learn to be self aware. Then no man can take us for a ride.

                  --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello All,
                  > Just Google: Living SRAOSHA
                  > Master and the site comes up.
                  >
                  > This guy copied Paul's God
                  > World Chart, which was copied
                  > and plagiarized info, and then
                  > tweaked it by adding a couple
                  > of Higher Planes that Twit, Darwin,
                  > and Klemp had overlooked.
                  >
                  > After all, Why should Sugmad
                  > reside on the 10th Plane (ANAMI
                  > LOK) and not a higher one when
                  > the LEM is of the 12th Plane and
                  > the Mahanta of the 14th Plane!
                  >
                  > The Living Sraosha Master (LSM),
                  > [BTW-SRAOSHA means ECK, see
                  > pg. 200 of the 1998 EK Lexicon
                  > and page 51 of The Path of the
                  > Masters] is just another conman.
                  >
                  > Anyway, what's funny is that
                  > anyone can simply insert their
                  > own name in place of this guy's
                  > and who's to disprove his "inner"
                  > experiences and the story he's
                  > spinning? It like with Twitchell's
                  > bullshit which Darwin and Klemp
                  > inherited by playing-the-game.
                  >
                  > So, Twitchell's and Klemp's "God
                  > Worlds Chart" i.e. "Worlds of ECK"
                  > goes to the 10th Plane. This below
                  > chart goes to the 12th Plane. The
                  > 12th Plane is the AKSHAR and the
                  > 11th is a derivative of this... I forget
                  > exactly what it was. In any case
                  > AKSHAR means SUGMAD and it
                  > can be found in "Path" on pages
                  > 264, 284, and 305.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > **********************
                  > AKATHA God Worlds Chart - Lower and Higher Planes
                  > A message from Sri Kahtifji, the Mahaji, the 973rd Living SRAOSHA Master regarding the God Worlds Chart
                  >
                  > "The AKATHA God Worlds chart is very important insofar as the chela (student of AKATHA) needs to see it in order to know how to negotiate through the God Worlds. It is especially important to manoeuvre through the lower worlds getting to the Soul Plane as quickly as possible. Still that paradox exists regarding the essence of man as Soul wherein each one is the Sound and Light of SRAOSHA and therefore, dwells really upon the Soul Plane. The problem is that those outside AKATHA do not know it. We are fortunate to have this God knowlege, the Para-Vidya, in AKATHA. Still Soul needs to see the God Worlds superstructure for the true matrix of the universe. This mapping is very old, older than time itself. Hence, we again are fortunate that Paulji (Paul Twitchell) was the pioneer for this mapping in the recent past. Otherwise, we would not know were to go on the inner. The chela should really appreciate that we know were to go spiritually in AKATHA."
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > You can view the AKATHA GOD WORLDS CHART by clicking on the PDF link below or viewing in Scribd.
                  >
                  > the_god_worlds_of_akatha_31.pdf
                  > Download File
                  >
                • Tyson
                  ... Eckankar,Shraosha,Dhunnami and any that revere Paul,Harold or Darwin, are just new age trancendental meditation with a fictional hirarchy whose purpose has
                  Message 8 of 8 , Feb 22 10:24 AM
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                    --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "Tyson" <abunjoroge@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello Allen and All,
                    > > You have, obviously, taken
                    > > and swallowed the bait along
                    > > with the hook, line, and sinker.
                    > > You've got blinders on, which
                    > > is curious. Perhaps you became
                    > > or saw yourself disenfranchised
                    > > regarding higher initiations while
                    > > under the Klempster?
                    > >
                    > > Anyway, I'll respond to your
                    > > comments below:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > allen wrote:
                    > > Hello Prometheus and the whole group.
                    > >
                    > > First off I wanted to thank you for letting me express my self even though I
                    > > know many of you if not all of you don't agree with me!
                    > >
                    > > ME: True.
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > Anyway this is a good dialog and I think you for at least entertaining my
                    > > viewpoint.
                    > >
                    > > ME: I find your dialog (diatribe)
                    > > to be unentertaining, redundant
                    > > and tedious.
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > I do have Difficulties of Becoming the living ECK master.
                    > > I have Ford's book. Ect.
                    > >
                    > > ME: When's the last time you "read"
                    > > these books? How about "The Path
                    > > of the Masters" by Julian P. Johnson?
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > Most of the criticism I have seen about Paul Twitchell I find quite amusing.
                    > > This is what happens when we fail to learn Soul Travel or what AKATHA calls
                    > > Sahaji and we try and figure out this world through our physical senses. From
                    > > the lower states of consciousness illusion rains supreme and we fall for it like
                    > > a child falls for a cheap magic show in Vegas.
                    > >
                    > > ME: Who says that I, or others
                    > > on this site, who are critical of
                    > > your narrow, judgmental, and
                    > > elitist views don't know how to
                    > > Soul travel? How do you "know"
                    > > what Akatha (i.e. God, Whatever)
                    > > calls anything or says? Funny that
                    > > you used the analogy of a cheap
                    > > magic show in Vegas... it's a
                    > > Freudian slip that points out that
                    > > you are caught up with the illusion
                    > > of your beliefs.
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > I would also like to say that the idea that Paul Twitchell copied most of his
                    > > stuff from other Authors is ridiculous.
                    > >
                    > > ME: That's a really close-minded
                    > > remark. This site, in the links,
                    > > (and files if you are a site member)
                    > > has info showing PT's books with
                    > > plagiarisms. Too bad you don't have
                    > > a copy of The Path of the Masters
                    > > but I think someone put it up in pdf
                    > > in the links. Therefore, there's actual
                    > > proof that your hero was a liar, thief,
                    > > and poser!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > All one has to do is read all his books, discourses articles and listen to all
                    > > his tapes and one realizes that he produced an amazing amount of materials over
                    > > a very short time.
                    > >
                    > > ME: Don't be so foolish! PT copied
                    > > and paraphrased other peoples
                    > > info, experiences, and research.
                    > > He substituted and changed names,
                    > > words, letters, added, omitted, etc.,
                    > > etc. This was all pointed out in Ford's
                    > > book. Thus, either you did a speed
                    > > read, couldn't handle the truth and
                    > > are in denial like most ECKists,
                    > > or you're lying about having read
                    > > "Confessions of a God-Seeker."
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > Paul called Eckankar the Ancient Science of Soul Travel.
                    > > Any Scientist will tell you that Science is based on truth and not on
                    > > originality!
                    > >
                    > > ME: No, not really. Science is
                    > > based upon empirical evidence,
                    > > proven theories, and being able
                    > > to reproduce results. According
                    > > to your view Edison wasn't very
                    > > original.
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > Ironically Paul Twitchell still managed to be one of the most original thinkers
                    > > ever to grace this dark planet!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ME: It's ironical that you would
                    > > use "ironically" when promoting
                    > > a conman, liar, wannabe, and
                    > > plagiarist! BTW- I've got a bridge
                    > > that I'd like to sell you.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > Science builds upon Truth. So since truth is contained EVERYWHERE mixed with
                    > > UNTRUTH to say that Paul copied from others is ridiculous since all Science
                    > > copies from the universal truth!
                    > >
                    > > ME: Actually Twit used, mostly,
                    > > half-truths and fiction. However,
                    > > when someone uses word for word
                    > > paragraphs, like Twit, I'd say that
                    > > he "copied." If you ever attended
                    > > college you'd know that plagiarism
                    > > was unethical and not allowed.
                    > > It's unoriginal, lazy and dishonest
                    > > to use someone else's words, research,
                    > > experiences, and thoughts and,
                    > > especially, not give them credit
                    > > in a footnote.
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > As far as Paul's tendency to distort "reality" all I can say is I have had
                    > > numerous inner experiences with him and Sri Kahtifji through the spiritual
                    > > Exercises of AKATHA and these types of things are useless to argue since how
                    > > could you possibly understand or known my experiences? You do not. No fault of
                    > > your own of course.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ME: You're comments are
                    > > arrogant (vain and Astral)!
                    > > It's a two-way street. You
                    > > don't know of my experiences
                    > > either. But I do know that
                    > > Kahtif is a phony and poser.
                    > > His S.E.s are no more "spiritual"
                    > > or enlightening as anyone
                    > > else's. It's subjective and
                    > > illusionistic and pure fantasy.
                    > > Your fault is not having
                    > > an open mind. Your need
                    > > is to be be codependent.
                    > > You sound like one of Klemp's
                    > > ECKists!
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > If Paul Twitchell did change his stories around how does that in any way
                    > > invalidate who he was spiritually.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ME: PT did change his stories.
                    > > He was a liar and a manipulator
                    > > and, it seems, a spiritual wannabe.
                    > >
                    > > If someone cannot live a truthful
                    > > life, then, they are living a lie.
                    > >
                    > > Plus, let me point this out.
                    > > In "Difficulties Of Becoming
                    > > The Living ECK Master" PT
                    > > states (pgs. 52-56) that when
                    > > in the Navy during WWII he
                    > > created chaos and problems
                    > > with his paperwork and played
                    > > mental and psychological
                    > > games with people in order
                    > > to get out of work or duty
                    > > assignments. This was during
                    > > war time! These disruptions
                    > > are not only narcissistic but
                    > > are what the enemy would do...
                    > > not someone who had claimed
                    > > to have received the 2nd initiation
                    > > in 1923 and who, supposedly,
                    > > had visitations with Inner Masters
                    > > and was destined as a "spiritual"
                    > > master. Nope! Twitchell was
                    > > always a narcissist and liar first,
                    > > a conman & self-promoter
                    > > second, and maybe, a spiritual
                    > > seeker third.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > Again the analogy of a virtuoso violinist.
                    > > If a virtuoso violinist tells you he is going to give a recital in Carnegie Hall
                    > > on the 23rd of May, and you find out later no such concert is planed on such a
                    > > date… does that make him any less talented as a violinist? Does that make his
                    > > music bad? Does that mean his notes are out of tune of sour?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ME: First, I don't buy your analogy.
                    > > That's like a "Christian" using the
                    > > Bible to prove a point because it's
                    > > "the word of God." I don't buy that
                    > > either! BTW- Where's Mozart fit-in?
                    > > Did he take lessons?
                    > >
                    > > You, as Soul, is the only teacher
                    > > you need, in conjunction with Spirit.
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > Paul Twitchell was definitely an enigma and a mystery but his spiritual
                    > > ability's and his ability to express truth where amazing.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ME: Reread Ford's book... slowly
                    > > this time. Digest it. Contemplate/
                    > > Meditate upon it. Take your time...
                    > > weeks. However, don't bother with
                    > > the last 1/4 of the book. Paul was
                    > > no mystery, although, that's what
                    > > he was trying to portray. Do you
                    > > have a copy of the SHARIYAT 1?
                    > > Look at the index - Mahanta, birth
                    > > of. Paul rewrote it so that he was
                    > > adopted and was, supposedly, born
                    > > on a riverboat and left to drift like
                    > > Moses.
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > Has anyone hear actually read Paul's works carefully with an effort to
                    > > understand what he was saying? Reading the Tigers Fang, Dialogs with the
                    > > Master, The Far Country, letters to Gail 1, 2, and 3 and listening to a few of
                    > > his lecture tapes and its hard for me to understand how anyone could miss Paul
                    > > Twitchell's amazing gift at expressing great truths!
                    > >
                    > > ME: Yes! The Tiger's Fang was
                    > > fictionalized and embellished.
                    > > This is why Kirpal Singh had
                    > > problems with it. Don't you read?
                    > > There is a letter from Kirpal
                    > > stating this and why Kirpal
                    > > had the falling out with Twit
                    > > and still had the manuscript
                    > > in 1966.
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > I feel the same way about Sri Kahtifji after listening to him speak for hours on
                    > > end and reading his works.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ME: You were brainwashed.
                    > > This is a typical cult brainwashing
                    > > technique to wear you down.
                    > > Afterwards, you feel dazed
                    > > and attribute this to having
                    > > Soul traveled to higher spiritual
                    > > realms.
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > Yes its sad what Darwin and especially Harold have done to Eckankar since 1971.
                    > > But Sri Paul Twitchell was not the problem. Sri Kahtifji is not the problem.
                    > > Blame it on Harold Klemp if you must blame it on anyone. He has ruined
                    > > something special.
                    > >
                    > > ME: Twitchell started the whole
                    > > scam so he was the problem!
                    > > Kahtif is as much a poser as
                    > > is Klemp. No, I blame it on Paul
                    > > and Gail. Mostly Gail because
                    > > she encouraged Paul do it in
                    > > order to make the big bucks
                    > > that she wanted.
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > But its back as AKATHA and for that I am great full.
                    > > I know most of you if not all of you will disagree with me on most if not all of
                    > > this.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ME: True! Been there, done that,
                    > > bought the books, tee shirt, and
                    > > even the coffee mug!
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > Such paradoxes of the universe make life very interesting. Non of you know the
                    > > experiences I have had so its hard for you to understand my viewpoint on this.
                    > > But in a nut shell if point (A) is true and point (B) is also true point (A) can
                    > > not invalidate point (B).
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ME: Bullshit! Twit used the paradox
                    > > ploy to twist the truth and you've merely
                    > > bought into it. He's playing a game...
                    > > (a shell game) and the joke's on you.
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > And this is what we call a paradox or another way of putting it a
                    > > misunderstanding of reality!
                    > >
                    > > ME: You're in denial.
                    > > But I understand your
                    > > need for a spot in the
                    > > hierarchy.
                    > >
                    > > A:
                    > > Such is the nature of the human mind. A pitiful instrument that we try and use
                    > > until we learn Soul Travel or in AKATHA known as Sahaji. As Paul Twichell stated
                    > > the mind is an excellent servant but a poor master.
                    > >
                    > > ME: Paul stole that adage
                    > > as well. Why don't you know
                    > > that?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Prometheus
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hello Allen and All,
                    > > > Let's face it. This Sri
                    > > > Kahtifji is either a
                    > > > conman, like Twitchell,
                    > > > or is deluded. Maybe
                    > > > a combo of both!
                    > > >
                    > > > Allen, if you would take
                    > > > the time to look at the
                    > > > PT info, older post below,
                    > > > from his June, 1971 interviews
                    > > > you would see that Twit
                    > > > was a liar, poser, conman
                    > > > and a self-promoter.
                    > > > These quotes were taken
                    > > > from "Difficulties Of
                    > > > Becoming The Living
                    > > > ECK Master."
                    > > >
                    > > > [If you have "Difficulties"
                    > > > see pgs. 38-48, 70-71]
                    > > >
                    > > > 1. Twitchell never travelled
                    > > > to India, especially, with his
                    > > > sister and, especially, from
                    > > > Paris, France, when he was
                    > > > 15 years old (circa 1923).
                    > > > Kay-Dee was in school in
                    > > > Paris, Kentucky.
                    > > >
                    > > > This means that Twitchell
                    > > > never received his 2nd initiation
                    > > > (at this time or place) from
                    > > > either Sudar, or Kirpal Singh.
                    > > > It didn't happen!
                    > > >
                    > > > 2. Therefore, any follow-up
                    > > > (2nd & 3rd) visits to India
                    > > > (1947 & 1951) to see Rebazar
                    > > > and to receive initiations 3-7
                    > > > and then 8-12 were also lies.
                    > > > Sudar was actually Kirpal Singh
                    > > > and he was Paul's real Master
                    > > > from 1955-1965, but Kirpal
                    > > > had a falling out with Paul due
                    > > > to exaggerations and pure
                    > > > fiction PT used in his Tiger's
                    > > > Fang manuscript. PT has Sudar
                    > > > (Kirpal) dying in 1937, but Kirpal
                    > > > actually outlived Paul by three
                    > > > years and died in 1974 at 80
                    > > > years old while Paul was 63.
                    > > >
                    > > > Rebazar (among other EK
                    > > > Masters like Fubbi) were/are
                    > > > imaginary characters created
                    > > > by Twitchell in order to establish
                    > > > an ancient "line of Mastership."
                    > > > Rebazar was created so that
                    > > > Twitchell could initiate himself
                    > > > as a 12th Plane "Master." Later,
                    > > > 1969, Paul made himself a
                    > > > 14th Plane Mahanta/Master.
                    > > >
                    > > > These ego-driven conmen always
                    > > > need to one-up the competition
                    > > > by giving themselves more and
                    > > > more phony initiation numbers
                    > > > and more glorified titles! Their
                    > > > deluded followers will believe
                    > > > anything they say. Look around,
                    > > > it's the same with all religions!
                    > > >
                    > > > 3. Anyone believing Twitchell
                    > > > was a "Master" and was not a
                    > > > liar, or that Rebazar and Fubbi
                    > > > actually exist are either delusional,
                    > > > stupid, fearful, insane, weak
                    > > > minded, are conmen themselves,
                    > > > or are a combo of all the above!
                    > > >
                    > > > Prometheus
                    > > > BTW- Allen, I really doubt that
                    > > > you've done a research of info
                    > > > in "Difficulties Of Becoming The
                    > > > Living ECK Master?" Do you have
                    > > > this book in order to verify the
                    > > > info I've posted from pages 38-48
                    > > > and 70-71? Really, Paul was never
                    > > > in Paris, France at 15 years of age!
                    > > >
                    > > > Have you ever read "The Path of
                    > > > the Masters" or Ford Johnson's
                    > > > book "Confessions of a God-Seeker?"
                    > > > I you had read these (not a speed
                    > > > read like Twit would do), and kept
                    > > > an open mind while doing so, you
                    > > > would begin to see through all of
                    > > > Twitchell's bullshit and that of his
                    > > > Eckankar con.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ********
                    > > > Just thought I'd bring
                    > > > this back to the front
                    > > > page for another look.
                    > > >
                    > > > This LSM character is
                    > > > saying that there's no
                    > > > empirical evidence showing
                    > > > that Paul wasn't what
                    > > > he claimed. That's not
                    > > > true! We have Paul's
                    > > > own words that prove
                    > > > he lied about and stole
                    > > > almost everything that
                    > > > became Eckankar. Would
                    > > > a spiritual "Master" lie
                    > > > or would a conman lie?
                    > > >
                    > > > What's the difference
                    > > > between the two?
                    > > > One is deluded while
                    > > > the other is dishonest!
                    > > > Both are vain and toot
                    > > > their own horns.
                    > > >
                    > > > It's also interesting that
                    > > > this Akshar Master is using
                    > > > ECK Master Fubbi Quantz
                    > > > as the (replacement) 972nd
                    > > > LSM while he's the 973rd
                    > > > replacement for Klemp!
                    > > > Too funny!
                    > > >
                    > > > p.s. What's also funny is
                    > > > that this LSM states that
                    > > > PT was in charge (as LEM
                    > > > or LSM?) from 65-72. Did
                    > > > he just round it off to 72?
                    > > > Or should it have been
                    > > > 66-72?
                    > > >
                    > > > prometheus wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hello Etznab,
                    > > > > I'll have to agree that
                    > > > > Sudar Singh was really
                    > > > > Kirpal Singh. Paul lied
                    > > > > about who Sudar was.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > BTW- Sudar Singh is
                    > > > > listed in Klemp's ECK
                    > > > > Lexicon as the LEM who
                    > > > > taught Twitchell, thus,
                    > > > > it seems that Kirpal
                    > > > > (Sudar) was actually
                    > > > > the 970th LEM since
                    > > > > Rebazar is fictitious.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Also, in Twitchell's June
                    > > > > 1971 interviews printed
                    > > > > in:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "Difficulties Of Becoming
                    > > > > The Living ECK Master."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > PT stated that he was 15
                    > > > > years old (pg. 48) when
                    > > > > he traveled from "Paris"
                    > > > > to India where PT states
                    > > > > he got his 2nd initiation
                    > > > > from Sudar Singh. All of
                    > > > > this distorted info comes
                    > > > > directly from Twitchell's
                    > > > > own mouth!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Even the ECKankar spokes-
                    > > > > person, Doug Marman,
                    > > > > has stated that Twitchell
                    > > > > was lying and misdirected
                    > > > > people into thinking this
                    > > > > was Paris, France (where
                    > > > > PT went to visit his sister)
                    > > > > when it was actually Paris,
                    > > > > Kentucky! I, also, doubt
                    > > > > that Twit flew from Paris,
                    > > > > Kentucky to India! When
                    > > > > you catch a person in one
                    > > > > lie it makes you wonder
                    > > > > how many other lies there
                    > > > > were/are.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Klemp states that PT was
                    > > > > born in 1908, but it really
                    > > > > doesn't matter because it
                    > > > > was between 1908-1910.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Let's say PT was born
                    > > > > in 1908. This means
                    > > > > that when he was 15
                    > > > > (pg.48) and got his 2nd
                    > > > > initiation from Sudar
                    > > > > the year was 1923.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Note: Klemp mentions
                    > > > > in the Paul Twitchell
                    > > > > (born 1908) info on
                    > > > > Eckankar.org that PT
                    > > > > was "Twisting Facts"
                    > > > > and "Exaggerating"
                    > > > > at age 27 (1935) to
                    > > > > get into "Who's Who
                    > > > > in Kentucky" and that
                    > > > > Twitchell had never
                    > > > > been all that far from
                    > > > > home. Paul's first wife
                    > > > > stated that he had
                    > > > > never been outside
                    > > > > of the U.S. until he
                    > > > > joined the Navy in 1942.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > PT claims that on the
                    > > > > next (2nd) trip to India
                    > > > > it was 1947. This was
                    > > > > when he met Rebazar
                    > > > > and received initiations
                    > > > > 3-7.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > BTW- It seems that Twitchell
                    > > > > was a 2nd initiate from
                    > > > > 1923-1947....{Sudar had
                    > > > > died in 1937 (pg. 45)}
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I wonder who PT's master
                    > > > > was from 1937-47 since
                    > > > > he says he didn't meet RT
                    > > > > until 1947?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > And, this means that Twitchell
                    > > > > was a 2nd initiate for 24
                    > > > > years... 1923-47!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > And, Rebazar was the fill-
                    > > > > in LEM since 1937.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > PT claims to have gone
                    > > > > from 3rd to 7th initiate
                    > > > > in six to seven months!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > On Twitchell's 3rd trip
                    > > > > to India (1951), to meet
                    > > > > Rebazar for the second
                    > > > > time, PT says he "got the
                    > > > > finish of my initiations."
                    > > > > I'm assuming this was
                    > > > > 8-12!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Now, maybe I'm wrong
                    > > > > that Sudar Singh was the
                    > > > > 970th LEM.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Maybe Sudar was the 969th
                    > > > > LEM and Rebazar (as fill-in)
                    > > > > was the 970th LEM since
                    > > > > he, supposedly, gave PT
                    > > > > the 12th and made him
                    > > > > the LEM.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > However, was Twitchell
                    > > > > the LEM in 1951? It sure
                    > > > > doesn't seem so according
                    > > > > to Twitchell's writings.
                    > > > > Or, did Twit get the 12th
                    > > > > but Not the LEM position?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > This would mean that Rebazar
                    > > > > was the LEM from 1937-65!
                    > > > > The truth is, it's all a lie!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Plus, let's remember this
                    > > > > too. Twitchell is telling all
                    > > > > of this in a series of interviews
                    > > > > in June, 1971 (as the Mahanta).
                    > > > > And, this was just a few
                    > > > > months before his untimely
                    > > > > death. Lies and more lies up
                    > > > > to his death!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Anyway, pages 38-48, 70-71
                    > > > > have all of the info one needs.
                    > > > > Just remember that Twitchell
                    > > > > was born in 1908 (close enough),
                    > > > > and that in June, 1966 Kirpal
                    > > > > Singh (Paul's real Master)
                    > > > > returned PT's "The Tiger's Fang"
                    > > > > manuscript to him. Plus, it
                    > > > > was January, 1969 that the
                    > > > > word "Mahanta" was first used
                    > > > > in print by Twitchell.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Think about this. If PT was in
                    > > > > training by Rebazar over all
                    > > > > these years, as he claimed, and
                    > > > > received 12 initiations from him,
                    > > > > one would think that RT would
                    > > > > have told PT about the 14th
                    > > > > level/plane and that PT would
                    > > > > have used the term "Mahanta"
                    > > > > before 1969!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Sure, anything can be debated,
                    > > > > but credibility goes a long way
                    > > > > in deciding if the person telling
                    > > > > you all this stuff can be trusted.
                    > > > > Twitchell was a known and proven
                    > > > > plagiarist and a liar as pointed
                    > > > > out by former RESA Ford Johnson,
                    > > > > by Doug Marman, and even by
                    > > > > Harold Klemp!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Regardless of proven facts,
                    > > > > common sense, logic, and
                    > > > > past behavior, some people
                    > > > > will still believe this crap.
                    > > > > They need to believe in
                    > > > > something/anything bigger
                    > > > > and greater than themselves.
                    > > > > They allow their minds and
                    > > > > imaginations to be programmed
                    > > > > to expect and dream of
                    > > > > scenarios that are "spiritual."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Prometheus
                    > > >
                    > > > "allen4447" wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hello Everyone,
                    > > > >
                    > > > > If you look at Paul Twitchell's "Spiritual Notebook" 1981 edition which I
                    > > believe is identical to older copies on page 106 you will see a 12th plain chart
                    > > that is almost identical to the AKATHA chart that's at:
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > http://www.akatha.com/akatha-god-worlds-chart-showing-lower-and-higher-plains.ht\
                    > > \
                    > > ml
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > > A look through the old Eckankar dictionary from 1973 shows I believe that
                    > > all AKATHA terms except AKATHA are listed. see:
                    > > > >
                    > > > http://www.akatha.com/akatha-glossary.html
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > > All that this proves is that AKATHA and Paul's old time Eckankar (pre 1972)
                    > > are as Prometheus stated almost identical. I believe that Sri Kahtifji would
                    > > probably agree, stating he holds the Rod of SRAOSHA power which is really the
                    > > same as the rod of Eck power that Paul Twichell held till 1971. I believe Sri
                    > > Kahtifji has also stated somewhere (not sure where) that AKATHA is really Old
                    > > time Eckankar (pre 1971) So AKATHA being similar to old time Eckankar this is
                    > > not something AKATHA is trying to hid from anyone.
                    > > >
                    > > > > So all we are left with is who believes what?
                    > > >
                    > > > > This is the problem with debating anything of a spiritual nature whether its
                    > > AKATHA, Eckankar, Christianity, Buddhism, etc.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I am no fan of the "New Eckankar" that Klemp created.
                    > > >
                    > > > > I am a former Eck chela for 29 years I'm glad I got out! I do not recommend
                    > > the "New Klemp Eckankar"
                    > > >
                    > > > > But I have to say in all honesty from my viewpoint Paul Twichell was a
                    > > Spiritual Giant.
                    > > >
                    > > > > And so is Sri Kahtifji. I know most of you will probably disagree but this
                    > > is the nature of Spiritual Debating. Or Discussion : ) How can anyone ever win
                    > > an augment about Spirituality?
                    > > >
                    > > > > All you can do is find a path that makes seems to you and feels right to you
                    > > and give it a try and see where it leads you. Some chose to follow "Science"
                    > > what ever that means. Others AKATHA. Others Eckankar or Christian Mysticism or
                    > > what ever. I frankly can't blame some of you for being so annoyed with the new
                    > > Eckankar as I agree there is a lot of nonsense going on.
                    > > >
                    > > > > But some of us are God seekers who truly desire to find God. And so it goes
                    > > we go down all kinds of avenues trying to find answers to questions that seem
                    > > almost impossible to answer!
                    > > >
                    > > > > AKATHA has done more for me over the last 3 months then Eckankar did over
                    > > the last 29 years.
                    > > >
                    > > > > But its an individual thing and we all need to find our own path what ever
                    > > the word Path means to us individually.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Allen
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > prometheus wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Hello All,
                    > > > > > Just Google: Living SRAOSHA
                    > > > > > Master and the site comes up.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > This guy copied Paul's God
                    > > > > > World Chart, which was copied
                    > > > > > and plagiarized info, and then
                    > > > > > tweaked it by adding a couple
                    > > > > > of Higher Planes that Twit, Darwin,
                    > > > > > and Klemp had overlooked.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > After all, Why should Sugmad
                    > > > > > reside on the 10th Plane (ANAMI
                    > > > > > LOK) and not a higher one when
                    > > > > > the LEM is of the 12th Plane and
                    > > > > > the Mahanta of the 14th Plane!
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > The Living Sraosha Master (LSM),
                    > > > > > [BTW-SRAOSHA means ECK, see
                    > > > > > pg. 200 of the 1998 EK Lexicon
                    > > > > > and page 51 of The Path of the
                    > > > > > Masters] is just another conman.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Anyway, what's funny is that
                    > > > > > anyone can simply insert their
                    > > > > > own name in place of this guy's
                    > > > > > and who's to disprove his "inner"
                    > > > > > experiences and the story he's
                    > > > > > spinning? It like with Twitchell's
                    > > > > > bullshit which Darwin and Klemp
                    > > > > > inherited by playing-the-game.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > So, Twitchell's and Klemp's "God
                    > > > > > Worlds Chart" i.e. "Worlds of ECK"
                    > > > > > goes to the 10th Plane. This below
                    > > > > > chart goes to the 12th Plane. The
                    > > > > > 12th Plane is the AKSHAR and the
                    > > > > > 11th is a derivative of this... I forget
                    > > > > > exactly what it was. In any case
                    > > > > > AKSHAR means SUGMAD and it
                    > > > > > can be found in "Path" on pages
                    > > > > > 264, 284, and 305.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > **********************
                    > > > > > AKATHA God Worlds Chart - Lower and Higher Planes
                    > > > > > A message from Sri Kahtifji, the Mahaji, the 973rd Living SRAOSHA Master
                    > > regarding the God Worlds Chart
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > "The AKATHA God Worlds chart is very important insofar as the chela
                    > > (student of AKATHA) needs to see it in order to know how to negotiate through
                    > > the God Worlds. It is especially important to manoeuvre through the lower worlds
                    > > getting to the Soul Plane as quickly as possible. Still that paradox exists
                    > > regarding the essence of man as Soul wherein each one is the Sound and Light of
                    > > SRAOSHA and therefore, dwells really upon the Soul Plane. The problem is that
                    > > those outside AKATHA do not know it. We are fortunate to have this God knowlege,
                    > > the Para-Vidya, in AKATHA. Still Soul needs to see the God Worlds
                    > > superstructure for the true matrix of the universe. This mapping is very old,
                    > > older than time itself. Hence, we again are fortunate that Paulji (Paul
                    > > Twitchell) was the pioneer for this mapping in the recent past. Otherwise, we
                    > > would not know were to go on the inner. The chela should really appreciate that
                    > > we know were to go spiritually in AKATHA."
                    > > > > >*( Abu Njoroge Tammuz- The map of these worlds was borrowed from hinduism that states the universe itself is the body of Purusha. We are the micro of the macro. Each chakra represents a God world. When you get to the God worlds Paul and Akatha made embellishments to seam like one of there tailor made masters is resposible there. The original Hinduism did not completly agree. In Sant Mat Sri Laksmi resides in the third Chakra. While in others she is Consort of Purusha who is Narayana who is the original Brahm or unmanifested Vishnu. You see Purusha is a Father God thus is not outside of duality. Take away the duality then his original state is Aswara or unmanifested divine spirit or Ek Ong Kar Sat Nam. In hindu theology Sat Nam and Sat Puusha are the same. Sat Nam is the spirit of Truth itself. You see nothing Ancient in your path except a new hindu doctrine that is easier for the western mind to adopt. It is embellished with fantasy to make a more enjoyable read but looses something vital for a real Truth Seeker. Your friend in Ek Ong Kar Abu Njoroge Tammuz.) > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > You can view the AKATHA GOD WORLDS CHART by clicking on the PDF link below
                    > > or viewing in Scribd.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > the_god_worlds_of_akatha_31.pdf
                    > > > > > Download File
                    > >
                    >
                    Eckankar,Shraosha,Dhunnami and any that revere Paul,Harold or Darwin, are just new age trancendental meditation with a fictional hirarchy whose purpose has always been for personal gain,pomp and deception.
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