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Re: About Rebazar Tarzs

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  • etznab18
    (6) This one appears to include Rebazar Tarzs too. Very few knew that Paul Twitchell handed me [Duane Heppner] The Rod of Power in 2001, with Harold and an
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 8, 2012
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      (6)

      This one appears to include Rebazar Tarzs too.

      Very few knew that Paul Twitchell handed me [Duane Heppner] The Rod of Power in 2001, with Harold and an unconscious Joan standing in the background and watching. Harold decided to go with his attitude about Joan and her relationship with The Three Headed God instead of listening to The RealGuidance. I would like to thank Darwin and Harold and especially Joan for their cooperation in creating this adventure for me, because it helped motivate me to become The Great Writer I enjoy being today. [....]

      http://www.storyofmylife.com/User/user_story_view.aspx?storyId=4871&UserId=184140&ChapterId=8936

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@...> wrote:
      >
      > Would anybody new to this group like to venture a guess at how many people once claimed, or now claim Rebazar as part of their teachings and / or lineage?
      >
      > I'll start the list (in chronological order if possible):
      >
      > (1)
      >
      > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Rebazar/index.html
      >
      > (2)
      >
      > http://atom.org/
      >
      > (3)
      >
      > http://www.akatha.com/akathas-history-and-its-ties-with-sri-paul-twichell-and-the-old-pre-1972-eckankar-teachings.html
      >
      > [Not sure which (from the following list) appeared first. Akatha, Dhunami, or Anton Tonez.]
      >
      > (4) This is an old "Dhunami" link. The new (current link) doesn't appear to mention Rebazar Tarzs anywhere.
      >
      > http://web.archive.org/web/20100523142406/http://www.atomdoers.org/DhunMasters.html
      >
      > http://dhunami.com/
      >
      > (5)
      >
      > http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.eckankar/browse_thread/thread/c00a0d3da539f700/befd9891989226d3?hl=en&lnk=gst&q=Jambavat#befd9891989226d3
      >
      > http://www.aksharavidya.net/cms/upload/bilder/jambavat.jpg
      >
      > Did I miss any?
      >
      > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "etznab18" <etznab@> wrote:
      > >
      > > The following two quotes are from Introduction to Eckankar, 1966 by Paul Twitchell
      > >
      > > "My sole purpose was to find the elusive Tibetan Lama, known as Rebazar Tarzs, of whom I had heard much of from the late Sudar Singh at Allahabad. [....] - p. 27
      > >
      > > "Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan saint, whom he said was reputed to be over five hundred years old, and was at the time, living in the foothills between Darjeeling and Gangtock somewhere ... ." - p. 28
      > >
      > > *********
      > >
      > > Apparently, according to the stories told by Paul Twitchell early on, he heard about Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar Singh; later on he would write (in so many words) that Sudar Singh led him to Rebazar Tarzs.
      > >
      > > When the glossary for Eckankar, The Key to Secret Worlds appeared in print, it said about Rebazar Tarzs:
      > >
      > > "The great ECK master living in the Hindu Kush mountains, supposedly over five hundred years old. He is the emissary of ECKANKAR in the physical universe." - p. 249
      > >
      > > *********
      > >
      > > Apparently then, Rebazar Tarzs fits the characterization of someone living near the Himalayas and reported to be over 500 years old.
      > >
      > > Since Radhasoami & Ruhani Satsang don't (far as I know) tell stories about a character fitting that description, I doubt the person (Sudar Singh) that Paul referred to (in this instance) could be Kirpal Singh. It would be more logical, IMO, to look at Swami Premananda and Kriya Yoga stories where the number 500 years and older does appear; and fits the description for a master said to be living in the same general neighborhood as (described by Paul for) Rebazar Tarzs.
      > >
      > > I'm simply trying to trace certain history of Rebazar Tarzs and where it might have originated. Truth is, there was another 500+ master in the foothills of the Himalayas.
      > >
      > > "In 1861, Lahiri was transferred to Ranikhet, in the foothills of the Himalayas. One day, while walking in the hills, he heard a voice calling to him. After climbing further, he met his Guru Mahavatar Babaji, who initiated him into the techniques of Kriya Yoga. Babaji told Lahiri that the rest of his life was to be given to spreading the Kriya message.[1]"
      > >
      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahiri_Mahasaya
      > >
      > > "Swami Pranabananda Giri, another disciple of Lahiri Mahasaya, also met Mahavatar Babaji in the presence of Lahiri Mahasaya, at Lahiri's home. Pranabananda asked Mahavatar Babaji his age. Mahavatar Babaji responded that he was about 500 years old at that time.[4]"
      > >
      > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji
      > >
      > > I've no doubt Paul Twitchell heard the stories about Babaji when he lived near the Self-Revelation compound in D.C. for nearly 5 years from 1950-1955. Eckankar stories have it that Paul Twitchell met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951. Notice how it says "first met ... in 1951":
      > >
      > > "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the Himalayas near Darjeeling. [....]" - Harold Klemp
      > >
      > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man2.html
      > >
      > > OK. So David Lane talked with Paul Twitchell's first wife who lived with him at the ashram. David writes:
      > >
      > > "Hmm, his first wife, Camille Ballowe Taylor, states univocally that they never traveled together (or apart) from 1946 to 1955 anywhere outside of the United States. Indeed, she says Paul and her were doing the 'Self-Revelation Church of Absolute Monism' at the time and helping to edit their publications. [....]"
      > >
      > > http://dlane5.tripod.com/reba1.html
      > >
      > > Harold Klemp writes:
      > >
      > > "Paul became interested in occult teachings around 1950. About this time he hooked up with Swami Premananda, who headed the Self-Revelation Church of Absolute Monism in Washington, D.C. Paul and his wife lived in the ashram on church property for quite some time."
      > >
      > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail
      > >
      > > According to David Lane:
      > >
      > > He [Paul Twitchell] replaced the names of his actual teachers, Swami Premananda and Kirpal Singh, with the names "Sudar Singh" and "Rebazar Tarzs."
      > >
      > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
      > >
      > > I'm not certain why David Lane wrote that. Perhaps he had some literal examples to back up the statement. What is interesting to me is that Paul Twitchell did "go from Premananda to Kirpal Singh". (Remember, according to Paul's story - the later version, at least - it was Sudar Singh who led him to Rebazar Tarzs.
      > >
      > > The whole thing gets really confusing because "Sudar Singh" also appears in place of Kirpal Singh.
      > >
      > > Chapter 1, March-April, 1966, Orion Magazine: "Each has had a place in my growth toward the spiritual goal; each are equally great in their work for mankind. However, I have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Kirpal Singh, who has shown me a lot of the other work during my first year or so under him. Since we have parted he keeps an impartial view toward me and my research. Therefore, if I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that he is sympathetic and interested in my work."
      > >
      > > Chapter 1, The Flute of God, 1970: "Each has had a place in my growth toward the spiritual goal; each is equally great in his work for mankind. However, I have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Sudar Singh, who showed me a lot of the other work, during my first year or so under him. Since we have parted he has retained an impartial view toward me and my research.
      > > "If I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that he is sympathetic and interested in my work and led me to Rebazar Tarzs."
      > >
      > > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
      > >
      > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm2.html
      > >
      > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
      > >
      > > Sudar Singh led Paul Twitchell to Rebazar Tarzs?
      > >
      > > Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs?
      > >
      > > Paul Twitchell heard much of Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar Singh?
      > >
      > > [Then where is Sudar Singh mentioned in the book: Those Wonderful Eck Masters? Where is Sudar Singh depicted in the new pictorial timeline of Eckankar Masters displayed at public Eckankar events?]
      > >
      > > IMO, stories are what they are. Whether true or false is debatable.
      > >
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Etznab, I ll have to agree that Sudar Singh was really Kirpal Singh. Paul lied about who Sudar was. BTW- Sudar Singh is listed in Klemp s ECK Lexicon as
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 10, 2012
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        Hello Etznab,
        I'll have to agree that
        Sudar Singh was really
        Kirpal Singh. Paul lied
        about who Sudar was.

        BTW- Sudar Singh is
        listed in Klemp's ECK
        Lexicon as the LEM who
        taught Twitchell, thus,
        it seems that Kirpal
        (Sudar) was actually
        the 970th LEM since
        Rebazar is fictitious.

        Also, in Twitchell's June
        1971 interviews printed
        in:

        "Difficulties Of Becoming
        The Living ECK Master."

        PT stated that he was 15
        years old (pg. 48) when
        he traveled from "Paris"
        to India where PT states
        he got his 2nd initiation
        from Sudar Singh. All of
        this distorted info comes
        directly from Twitchell's
        own mouth!

        Even the ECKankar spokes-
        person, Doug Marman,
        has stated that Twitchell
        was lying and misdirected
        people into thinking this
        was Paris, France (where
        PT went to visit his sister)
        when it was actually Paris,
        Kentucky! I, also, doubt
        that Twit flew from Paris,
        Kentucky to India! When
        you catch a person in one
        lie it makes you wonder
        how many other lies there
        were/are.

        Klemp states that PT was
        born in 1908, but it really
        doesn't matter because it
        was between 1908-1910.

        Let's say PT was born
        in 1908. This means
        that when he was 15
        (pg.48) and got his 2nd
        initiation from Sudar
        the year was 1923.

        Note: Klemp mentions
        in the Paul Twitchell
        (born 1908) info on
        Eckankar.org that PT
        was "Twisting Facts"
        and "Exaggerating"
        at age 27 (1935) to
        get into "Who's Who
        in Kentucky" and that
        Twitchell had never
        been all that far from
        home. Paul's first wife
        stated that he had
        never been outside
        of the U.S. until he
        joined the Navy in 1942.

        PT claims that on the
        next (2nd) trip to India
        it was 1947. This was
        when he met Rebazar
        and received initiations
        3-7.

        BTW- It seems that Twitchell
        was a 2nd initiate from
        1923-1947....{Sudar had
        died in 1937 (pg. 45)}

        I wonder who PT's master
        was from 1937-47 since
        he says he didn't meet RT
        until 1947?

        And, this means that Twitchell
        was a 2nd initiate for 24
        years... 1923-47!

        And, Rebazar was the fill-
        in LEM since 1937.

        PT claims to have gone
        from 3rd to 7th initiate
        in six to seven months!

        On Twitchell's 3rd trip
        to India (1951), to meet
        Rebazar for the second
        time, PT says he "got the
        finish of my initiations."
        I'm assuming this was
        8-12!

        Now, maybe I'm wrong
        that Sudar Singh was the
        970th LEM.

        Maybe Sudar was the 969th
        LEM and Rebazar (as fill-in)
        was the 970th LEM since
        he, supposedly, gave PT
        the 12th and made him
        the LEM.

        However, was Twitchell
        the LEM in 1951? It sure
        doesn't seem so according
        to Twitchell's writings.
        Or, did Twit get the 12th
        but Not the LEM position?

        This would mean that Rebazar
        was the LEM from 1937-65!
        The truth is, it's all a lie!

        Plus, let's remember this
        too. Twitchell is telling all
        of this in a series of interviews
        in June, 1971 (as the Mahanta).
        And, this was just a few
        months before his untimely
        death. Lies and more lies up
        to his death!

        Anyway, pages 38-48, 70-71
        have all of the info one needs.
        Just remember that Twitchell
        was born in 1908 (close enough),
        and that in June, 1966 Kirpal
        Singh (Paul's real Master)
        returned PT's "The Tiger's Fang"
        manuscript to him. Plus, it
        was January, 1969 that the
        word "Mahanta" was first used
        in print by Twitchell.

        Think about this. If PT was in
        training by Rebazar over all
        these years, as he claimed, and
        received 12 initiations from him,
        one would think that RT would
        have told PT about the 14th
        level/plane and that PT would
        have used the term "Mahanta"
        before 1969!

        Sure, anything can be debated,
        but credibility goes a long way
        in deciding if the person telling
        you all this stuff can be trusted.
        Twitchell was a known and proven
        plagiarist and a liar as pointed
        out by former RESA Ford Johnson,
        by Doug Marman, and even by
        Harold Klemp!

        Regardless of proven facts,
        common sense, logic, and
        past behavior, some people
        will still believe this crap.
        They need to believe in
        something/anything bigger
        and greater than themselves.
        They allow their minds and
        imaginations to be programmed
        to expect and dream of
        scenarios that are "spiritual."

        Prometheus



        etznab wrote:
        >
        > The following two quotes are from Introduction to Eckankar, 1966 by Paul
        Twitchell
        >
        > "My sole purpose was to find the elusive Tibetan Lama, known as Rebazar Tarzs,
        of whom I had heard much of from the late Sudar Singh at Allahabad. [....] - p.
        27
        >
        > "Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan saint, whom he said was
        reputed to be over five hundred years old, and was at the time, living in the
        foothills between Darjeeling and Gangtock somewhere ... ." - p. 28
        >
        > *********
        >
        > Apparently, according to the stories told by Paul Twitchell early on, he heard
        about Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar Singh; later on he would write (in so many words)
        that Sudar Singh led him to Rebazar Tarzs.
        >
        > When the glossary for Eckankar, The Key to Secret Worlds appeared in print, it
        said about Rebazar Tarzs:
        >
        > "The great ECK master living in the Hindu Kush mountains, supposedly over five
        hundred years old. He is the emissary of ECKANKAR in the physical universe." -
        p. 249
        >
        > *********
        >
        > Apparently then, Rebazar Tarzs fits the characterization of someone living
        near the Himalayas and reported to be over 500 years old.
        >
        > Since Radhasoami & Ruhani Satsang don't (far as I know) tell stories about a
        character fitting that description, I doubt the person (Sudar Singh) that Paul
        referred to (in this instance) could be Kirpal Singh. It would be more logical,
        IMO, to look at Swami Premananda and Kriya Yoga stories where the number 500
        years and older does appear; and fits the description for a master said to be
        living in the same general neighborhood as (described by Paul for) Rebazar
        Tarzs.
        >
        > I'm simply trying to trace certain history of Rebazar Tarzs and where it might
        have originated. Truth is, there was another 500+ master in the foothills of the
        Himalayas.
        >
        > "In 1861, Lahiri was transferred to Ranikhet, in the foothills of the
        Himalayas. One day, while walking in the hills, he heard a voice calling to him.
        After climbing further, he met his Guru Mahavatar Babaji, who initiated him into
        the techniques of Kriya Yoga. Babaji told Lahiri that the rest of his life was
        to be given to spreading the Kriya message.[1]"
        >
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahiri_Mahasaya
        >
        > "Swami Pranabananda Giri, another disciple of Lahiri Mahasaya, also met
        Mahavatar Babaji in the presence of Lahiri Mahasaya, at Lahiri's home.
        Pranabananda asked Mahavatar Babaji his age. Mahavatar Babaji responded that he
        was about 500 years old at that time.[4]"
        >
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji
        >
        > I've no doubt Paul Twitchell heard the stories about Babaji when he lived near
        the Self-Revelation compound in D.C. for nearly 5 years from 1950-1955. Eckankar
        stories have it that Paul Twitchell met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951. Notice how it
        says "first met ... in 1951":
        >
        > "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the Himalayas near
        Darjeeling. [....]" - Harold Klemp
        >
        > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man2.html
        >
        > OK. So David Lane talked with Paul Twitchell's first wife who lived with him
        at the ashram. David writes:
        >
        > "Hmm, his first wife, Camille Ballowe Taylor, states univocally that they
        never traveled together (or apart) from 1946 to 1955 anywhere outside of the
        United States. Indeed, she says Paul and her were doing the 'Self-Revelation
        Church of Absolute Monism' at the time and helping to edit their publications.
        [....]"
        >
        > http://dlane5.tripod.com/reba1.html
        >
        > Harold Klemp writes:
        >
        > "Paul became interested in occult teachings around 1950. About this time he
        hooked up with Swami Premananda, who headed the Self-Revelation Church of
        Absolute Monism in Washington, D.C. Paul and his wife lived in the ashram on
        church property for quite some time."
        >
        > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail
        >
        > According to David Lane:
        >
        > He [Paul Twitchell] replaced the names of his actual teachers, Swami
        Premananda and Kirpal Singh, with the names "Sudar Singh" and "Rebazar Tarzs."
        >
        > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
        >
        > I'm not certain why David Lane wrote that. Perhaps he had some literal
        examples to back up the statement. What is interesting to me is that Paul
        Twitchell did "go from Premananda to Kirpal Singh". (Remember, according to
        Paul's story - the later version, at least - it was Sudar Singh who led him to
        Rebazar Tarzs.
        >
        > The whole thing gets really confusing because "Sudar Singh" also appears in
        place of Kirpal Singh.
        >
        > Chapter 1, March-April, 1966, Orion Magazine: "Each has had a place in my
        growth toward the spiritual goal; each are equally great in their work for
        mankind. However, I have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Kirpal
        Singh, who has shown me a lot of the other work during my first year or so under
        him. Since we have parted he keeps an impartial view toward me and my research.
        Therefore, if I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that he is
        sympathetic and interested in my work."
        >
        > Chapter 1, The Flute of God, 1970: "Each has had a place in my growth toward
        the spiritual goal; each is equally great in his work for mankind. However, I
        have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Sudar Singh, who showed me a
        lot of the other work, during my first year or so under him. Since we have
        parted he has retained an impartial view toward me and my research.
        > "If I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that he is
        sympathetic and interested in my work and led me to Rebazar Tarzs."
        >
        > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
        >
        > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm2.html
        >
        > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
        >
        > Sudar Singh led Paul Twitchell to Rebazar Tarzs?
        >
        > Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs?
        >
        > Paul Twitchell heard much of Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar Singh?
        >
        > [Then where is Sudar Singh mentioned in the book: Those Wonderful Eck Masters?
        Where is Sudar Singh depicted in the new pictorial timeline of Eckankar Masters
        displayed at public Eckankar events?]
        >
        > IMO, stories are what they are. Whether true or false is debatable.
        >People do this without putting
        much thought and investigation
        into it, after, they taken the bait.
        Now they're hooked!

        How many people believe in Big
        Foot and alien abductions? Lots!
        I don't! But, these are still topics
        to be debated and they are money
        makers for those promoting and
        selling this crap.

        Prometheus






        "etznab wrote:
        >
        > The following two quotes are from Introduction to Eckankar, 1966 by Paul
        Twitchell
        >
        > "My sole purpose was to find the elusive Tibetan Lama, known as Rebazar Tarzs,
        of whom I had heard much of from the late Sudar Singh at Allahabad. [....] - p.
        27
        >
        > "Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan saint, whom he said was
        reputed to be over five hundred years old, and was at the time, living in the
        foothills between Darjeeling and Gangtock somewhere ... ." - p. 28
        >
        > *********
        >
        > Apparently, according to the stories told by Paul Twitchell early on, he heard
        about Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar Singh; later on he would write (in so many words)
        that Sudar Singh led him to Rebazar Tarzs.
        >
        > When the glossary for Eckankar, The Key to Secret Worlds appeared in print, it
        said about Rebazar Tarzs:
        >
        > "The great ECK master living in the Hindu Kush mountains, supposedly over five
        hundred years old. He is the emissary of ECKANKAR in the physical universe." -
        p. 249
        >
        > *********
        >
        > Apparently then, Rebazar Tarzs fits the characterization of someone living
        near the Himalayas and reported to be over 500 years old.
        >
        > Since Radhasoami & Ruhani Satsang don't (far as I know) tell stories about a
        character fitting that description, I doubt the person (Sudar Singh) that Paul
        referred to (in this instance) could be Kirpal Singh. It would be more logical,
        IMO, to look at Swami Premananda and Kriya Yoga stories where the number 500
        years and older does appear; and fits the description for a master said to be
        living in the same general neighborhood as (described by Paul for) Rebazar
        Tarzs.
        >
        > I'm simply trying to trace certain history of Rebazar Tarzs and where it might
        have originated. Truth is, there was another 500+ master in the foothills of the
        Himalayas.
        >
        > "In 1861, Lahiri was transferred to Ranikhet, in the foothills of the
        Himalayas. One day, while walking in the hills, he heard a voice calling to him.
        After climbing further, he met his Guru Mahavatar Babaji, who initiated him into
        the techniques of Kriya Yoga. Babaji told Lahiri that the rest of his life was
        to be given to spreading the Kriya message.[1]"
        >
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahiri_Mahasaya
        >
        > "Swami Pranabananda Giri, another disciple of Lahiri Mahasaya, also met
        Mahavatar Babaji in the presence of Lahiri Mahasaya, at Lahiri's home.
        Pranabananda asked Mahavatar Babaji his age. Mahavatar Babaji responded that he
        was about 500 years old at that time.[4]"
        >
        > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji
        >
        > I've no doubt Paul Twitchell heard the stories about Babaji when he lived near
        the Self-Revelation compound in D.C. for nearly 5 years from 1950-1955. Eckankar
        stories have it that Paul Twitchell met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951. Notice how it
        says "first met ... in 1951":
        >
        > "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the Himalayas near
        Darjeeling. [....]" - Harold Klemp
        >
        > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man2.html
        >
        > OK. So David Lane talked with Paul Twitchell's first wife who lived with him
        at the ashram. David writes:
        >
        > "Hmm, his first wife, Camille Ballowe Taylor, states univocally that they
        never traveled together (or apart) from 1946 to 1955 anywhere outside of the
        United States. Indeed, she says Paul and her were doing the 'Self-Revelation
        Church of Absolute Monism' at the time and helping to edit their publications.
        [....]"
        >
        > http://dlane5.tripod.com/reba1.html
        >
        > Harold Klemp writes:
        >
        > "Paul became interested in occult teachings around 1950. About this time he
        hooked up with Swami Premananda, who headed the Self-Revelation Church of
        Absolute Monism in Washington, D.C. Paul and his wife lived in the ashram on
        church property for quite some time."
        >
        > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail
        >
        > According to David Lane:
        >
        > He [Paul Twitchell] replaced the names of his actual teachers, Swami
        Premananda and Kirpal Singh, with the names "Sudar Singh" and "Rebazar Tarzs."
        >
        > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
        >
        > I'm not certain why David Lane wrote that. Perhaps he had some literal
        examples to back up the statement. What is interesting to me is that Paul
        Twitchell did "go from Premananda to Kirpal Singh". (Remember, according to
        Paul's story - the later version, at least - it was Sudar Singh who led him to
        Rebazar Tarzs.
        >
        > The whole thing gets really confusing because "Sudar Singh" also appears in
        place of Kirpal Singh.
        >
        > Chapter 1, March-April, 1966, Orion Magazine: "Each has had a place in my
        growth toward the spiritual goal; each are equally great in their work for
        mankind. However, I have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Kirpal
        Singh, who has shown me a lot of the other work during my first year or so under
        him. Since we have parted he keeps an impartial view toward me and my research.
        Therefore, if I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that he is
        sympathetic and interested in my work."
        >
        > Chapter 1, The Flute of God, 1970: "Each has had a place in my growth toward
        the spiritual goal; each is equally great in his work for mankind. However, I
        have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Sudar Singh, who showed me a
        lot of the other work, during my first year or so under him. Since we have
        parted he has retained an impartial view toward me and my research.
        > "If I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that he is
        sympathetic and interested in my work and led me to Rebazar Tarzs."
        >
        > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
        >
        > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm2.html
        >
        > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
        >
        > Sudar Singh led Paul Twitchell to Rebazar Tarzs?
        >
        > Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs?
        >
        > Paul Twitchell heard much of Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar Singh?
        >
        > [Then where is Sudar Singh mentioned in the book: Those Wonderful Eck Masters?
        Where is Sudar Singh depicted in the new pictorial timeline of Eckankar Masters
        displayed at public Eckankar events?]
        >
        > IMO, stories are what they are. Whether true or false is debatable.
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Just thought I d bring this back to the front page for another look. This LSM character is saying that there s no empirical evidence showing that Paul wasn t
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 10, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Just thought I'd bring
          this back to the front
          page for another look.

          This LSM character is
          saying that there's no
          empirical evidence showing
          that Paul wasn't what
          he claimed. That's not
          true! We have Paul's
          own words that prove
          he lied about and stole
          almost everything that
          became Eckankar. Would
          a spiritual "Master" lie
          or would a conman lie?

          What's the difference
          between the two?
          One is deluded while
          the other is dishonest!
          Both are vain and toot
          their own horns.

          It's also interesting that
          this Akshar Master is using
          ECK Master Fubbi Quantz
          as the (replacement) 972nd
          LSM while he's the 973rd
          replacement for Klemp!
          Too funny!

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Hello Etznab,
          > I'll have to agree that
          > Sudar Singh was really
          > Kirpal Singh. Paul lied
          > about who Sudar was.
          >
          > BTW- Sudar Singh is
          > listed in Klemp's ECK
          > Lexicon as the LEM who
          > taught Twitchell, thus,
          > it seems that Kirpal
          > (Sudar) was actually
          > the 970th LEM since
          > Rebazar is fictitious.
          >
          > Also, in Twitchell's June
          > 1971 interviews printed
          > in:
          >
          > "Difficulties Of Becoming
          > The Living ECK Master."
          >
          > PT stated that he was 15
          > years old (pg. 48) when
          > he traveled from "Paris"
          > to India where PT states
          > he got his 2nd initiation
          > from Sudar Singh. All of
          > this distorted info comes
          > directly from Twitchell's
          > own mouth!
          >
          > Even the ECKankar spokes-
          > person, Doug Marman,
          > has stated that Twitchell
          > was lying and misdirected
          > people into thinking this
          > was Paris, France (where
          > PT went to visit his sister)
          > when it was actually Paris,
          > Kentucky! I, also, doubt
          > that Twit flew from Paris,
          > Kentucky to India! When
          > you catch a person in one
          > lie it makes you wonder
          > how many other lies there
          > were/are.
          >
          > Klemp states that PT was
          > born in 1908, but it really
          > doesn't matter because it
          > was between 1908-1910.
          >
          > Let's say PT was born
          > in 1908. This means
          > that when he was 15
          > (pg.48) and got his 2nd
          > initiation from Sudar
          > the year was 1923.
          >
          > Note: Klemp mentions
          > in the Paul Twitchell
          > (born 1908) info on
          > Eckankar.org that PT
          > was "Twisting Facts"
          > and "Exaggerating"
          > at age 27 (1935) to
          > get into "Who's Who
          > in Kentucky" and that
          > Twitchell had never
          > been all that far from
          > home. Paul's first wife
          > stated that he had
          > never been outside
          > of the U.S. until he
          > joined the Navy in 1942.
          >
          > PT claims that on the
          > next (2nd) trip to India
          > it was 1947. This was
          > when he met Rebazar
          > and received initiations
          > 3-7.
          >
          > BTW- It seems that Twitchell
          > was a 2nd initiate from
          > 1923-1947....{Sudar had
          > died in 1937 (pg. 45)}
          >
          > I wonder who PT's master
          > was from 1937-47 since
          > he says he didn't meet RT
          > until 1947?
          >
          > And, this means that Twitchell
          > was a 2nd initiate for 24
          > years... 1923-47!
          >
          > And, Rebazar was the fill-
          > in LEM since 1937.
          >
          > PT claims to have gone
          > from 3rd to 7th initiate
          > in six to seven months!
          >
          > On Twitchell's 3rd trip
          > to India (1951), to meet
          > Rebazar for the second
          > time, PT says he "got the
          > finish of my initiations."
          > I'm assuming this was
          > 8-12!
          >
          > Now, maybe I'm wrong
          > that Sudar Singh was the
          > 970th LEM.
          >
          > Maybe Sudar was the 969th
          > LEM and Rebazar (as fill-in)
          > was the 970th LEM since
          > he, supposedly, gave PT
          > the 12th and made him
          > the LEM.
          >
          > However, was Twitchell
          > the LEM in 1951? It sure
          > doesn't seem so according
          > to Twitchell's writings.
          > Or, did Twit get the 12th
          > but Not the LEM position?
          >
          > This would mean that Rebazar
          > was the LEM from 1937-65!
          > The truth is, it's all a lie!
          >
          > Plus, let's remember this
          > too. Twitchell is telling all
          > of this in a series of interviews
          > in June, 1971 (as the Mahanta).
          > And, this was just a few
          > months before his untimely
          > death. Lies and more lies up
          > to his death!
          >
          > Anyway, pages 38-48, 70-71
          > have all of the info one needs.
          > Just remember that Twitchell
          > was born in 1908 (close enough),
          > and that in June, 1966 Kirpal
          > Singh (Paul's real Master)
          > returned PT's "The Tiger's Fang"
          > manuscript to him. Plus, it
          > was January, 1969 that the
          > word "Mahanta" was first used
          > in print by Twitchell.
          >
          > Think about this. If PT was in
          > training by Rebazar over all
          > these years, as he claimed, and
          > received 12 initiations from him,
          > one would think that RT would
          > have told PT about the 14th
          > level/plane and that PT would
          > have used the term "Mahanta"
          > before 1969!
          >
          > Sure, anything can be debated,
          > but credibility goes a long way
          > in deciding if the person telling
          > you all this stuff can be trusted.
          > Twitchell was a known and proven
          > plagiarist and a liar as pointed
          > out by former RESA Ford Johnson,
          > by Doug Marman, and even by
          > Harold Klemp!
          >
          > Regardless of proven facts,
          > common sense, logic, and
          > past behavior, some people
          > will still believe this crap.
          > They need to believe in
          > something/anything bigger
          > and greater than themselves.
          > They allow their minds and
          > imaginations to be programmed
          > to expect and dream of
          > scenarios that are "spiritual."
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          > etznab wrote:
          > >
          > > The following two quotes are from Introduction to Eckankar, 1966 by Paul
          > Twitchell
          > >
          > > "My sole purpose was to find the elusive Tibetan Lama, known as Rebazar Tarzs,
          > of whom I had heard much of from the late Sudar Singh at Allahabad. [....] - p.
          > 27
          > >
          > > "Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan saint, whom he said was
          > reputed to be over five hundred years old, and was at the time, living in the
          > foothills between Darjeeling and Gangtock somewhere ... ." - p. 28
          > >
          > > *********
          > >
          > > Apparently, according to the stories told by Paul Twitchell early on, he heard
          > about Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar Singh; later on he would write (in so many words)
          > that Sudar Singh led him to Rebazar Tarzs.
          > >
          > > When the glossary for Eckankar, The Key to Secret Worlds appeared in print, it
          > said about Rebazar Tarzs:
          > >
          > > "The great ECK master living in the Hindu Kush mountains, supposedly over five
          > hundred years old. He is the emissary of ECKANKAR in the physical universe." -
          > p. 249
          > >
          > > *********
          > >
          > > Apparently then, Rebazar Tarzs fits the characterization of someone living
          > near the Himalayas and reported to be over 500 years old.
          > >
          > > Since Radhasoami & Ruhani Satsang don't (far as I know) tell stories about a
          > character fitting that description, I doubt the person (Sudar Singh) that Paul
          > referred to (in this instance) could be Kirpal Singh. It would be more logical,
          > IMO, to look at Swami Premananda and Kriya Yoga stories where the number 500
          > years and older does appear; and fits the description for a master said to be
          > living in the same general neighborhood as (described by Paul for) Rebazar
          > Tarzs.
          > >
          > > I'm simply trying to trace certain history of Rebazar Tarzs and where it might
          > have originated. Truth is, there was another 500+ master in the foothills of the
          > Himalayas.
          > >
          > > "In 1861, Lahiri was transferred to Ranikhet, in the foothills of the
          > Himalayas. One day, while walking in the hills, he heard a voice calling to him.
          > After climbing further, he met his Guru Mahavatar Babaji, who initiated him into
          > the techniques of Kriya Yoga. Babaji told Lahiri that the rest of his life was
          > to be given to spreading the Kriya message.[1]"
          > >
          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahiri_Mahasaya
          > >
          > > "Swami Pranabananda Giri, another disciple of Lahiri Mahasaya, also met
          > Mahavatar Babaji in the presence of Lahiri Mahasaya, at Lahiri's home.
          > Pranabananda asked Mahavatar Babaji his age. Mahavatar Babaji responded that he
          > was about 500 years old at that time.[4]"
          > >
          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji
          > >
          > > I've no doubt Paul Twitchell heard the stories about Babaji when he lived near
          > the Self-Revelation compound in D.C. for nearly 5 years from 1950-1955. Eckankar
          > stories have it that Paul Twitchell met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951. Notice how it
          > says "first met ... in 1951":
          > >
          > > "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the Himalayas near
          > Darjeeling. [....]" - Harold Klemp
          > >
          > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man2.html
          > >
          > > OK. So David Lane talked with Paul Twitchell's first wife who lived with him
          > at the ashram. David writes:
          > >
          > > "Hmm, his first wife, Camille Ballowe Taylor, states univocally that they
          > never traveled together (or apart) from 1946 to 1955 anywhere outside of the
          > United States. Indeed, she says Paul and her were doing the 'Self-Revelation
          > Church of Absolute Monism' at the time and helping to edit their publications.
          > [....]"
          > >
          > > http://dlane5.tripod.com/reba1.html
          > >
          > > Harold Klemp writes:
          > >
          > > "Paul became interested in occult teachings around 1950. About this time he
          > hooked up with Swami Premananda, who headed the Self-Revelation Church of
          > Absolute Monism in Washington, D.C. Paul and his wife lived in the ashram on
          > church property for quite some time."
          > >
          > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail
          > >
          > > According to David Lane:
          > >
          > > He [Paul Twitchell] replaced the names of his actual teachers, Swami
          > Premananda and Kirpal Singh, with the names "Sudar Singh" and "Rebazar Tarzs."
          > >
          > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
          > >
          > > I'm not certain why David Lane wrote that. Perhaps he had some literal
          > examples to back up the statement. What is interesting to me is that Paul
          > Twitchell did "go from Premananda to Kirpal Singh". (Remember, according to
          > Paul's story - the later version, at least - it was Sudar Singh who led him to
          > Rebazar Tarzs.
          > >
          > > The whole thing gets really confusing because "Sudar Singh" also appears in
          > place of Kirpal Singh.
          > >
          > > Chapter 1, March-April, 1966, Orion Magazine: "Each has had a place in my
          > growth toward the spiritual goal; each are equally great in their work for
          > mankind. However, I have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Kirpal
          > Singh, who has shown me a lot of the other work during my first year or so under
          > him. Since we have parted he keeps an impartial view toward me and my research.
          > Therefore, if I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that he is
          > sympathetic and interested in my work."
          > >
          > > Chapter 1, The Flute of God, 1970: "Each has had a place in my growth toward
          > the spiritual goal; each is equally great in his work for mankind. However, I
          > have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Sudar Singh, who showed me a
          > lot of the other work, during my first year or so under him. Since we have
          > parted he has retained an impartial view toward me and my research.
          > > "If I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that he is
          > sympathetic and interested in my work and led me to Rebazar Tarzs."
          > >
          > > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
          > >
          > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm2.html
          > >
          > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
          > >
          > > Sudar Singh led Paul Twitchell to Rebazar Tarzs?
          > >
          > > Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs?
          > >
          > > Paul Twitchell heard much of Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar Singh?
          > >
          > > [Then where is Sudar Singh mentioned in the book: Those Wonderful Eck Masters?
          > Where is Sudar Singh depicted in the new pictorial timeline of Eckankar Masters
          > displayed at public Eckankar events?]
          > >
          > > IMO, stories are what they are. Whether true or false is debatable.
          > >People do this without putting
          > much thought and investigation
          > into it, after, they taken the bait.
          > Now they're hooked!
          >
          > How many people believe in Big
          > Foot and alien abductions? Lots!
          > I don't! But, these are still topics
          > to be debated and they are money
          > makers for those promoting and
          > selling this crap.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > "etznab wrote:
          > >
          > > The following two quotes are from Introduction to Eckankar, 1966 by Paul
          > Twitchell
          > >
          > > "My sole purpose was to find the elusive Tibetan Lama, known as Rebazar Tarzs,
          > of whom I had heard much of from the late Sudar Singh at Allahabad. [....] - p.
          > 27
          > >
          > > "Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs, a Tibetan saint, whom he said was
          > reputed to be over five hundred years old, and was at the time, living in the
          > foothills between Darjeeling and Gangtock somewhere ... ." - p. 28
          > >
          > > *********
          > >
          > > Apparently, according to the stories told by Paul Twitchell early on, he heard
          > about Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar Singh; later on he would write (in so many words)
          > that Sudar Singh led him to Rebazar Tarzs.
          > >
          > > When the glossary for Eckankar, The Key to Secret Worlds appeared in print, it
          > said about Rebazar Tarzs:
          > >
          > > "The great ECK master living in the Hindu Kush mountains, supposedly over five
          > hundred years old. He is the emissary of ECKANKAR in the physical universe." -
          > p. 249
          > >
          > > *********
          > >
          > > Apparently then, Rebazar Tarzs fits the characterization of someone living
          > near the Himalayas and reported to be over 500 years old.
          > >
          > > Since Radhasoami & Ruhani Satsang don't (far as I know) tell stories about a
          > character fitting that description, I doubt the person (Sudar Singh) that Paul
          > referred to (in this instance) could be Kirpal Singh. It would be more logical,
          > IMO, to look at Swami Premananda and Kriya Yoga stories where the number 500
          > years and older does appear; and fits the description for a master said to be
          > living in the same general neighborhood as (described by Paul for) Rebazar
          > Tarzs.
          > >
          > > I'm simply trying to trace certain history of Rebazar Tarzs and where it might
          > have originated. Truth is, there was another 500+ master in the foothills of the
          > Himalayas.
          > >
          > > "In 1861, Lahiri was transferred to Ranikhet, in the foothills of the
          > Himalayas. One day, while walking in the hills, he heard a voice calling to him.
          > After climbing further, he met his Guru Mahavatar Babaji, who initiated him into
          > the techniques of Kriya Yoga. Babaji told Lahiri that the rest of his life was
          > to be given to spreading the Kriya message.[1]"
          > >
          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahiri_Mahasaya
          > >
          > > "Swami Pranabananda Giri, another disciple of Lahiri Mahasaya, also met
          > Mahavatar Babaji in the presence of Lahiri Mahasaya, at Lahiri's home.
          > Pranabananda asked Mahavatar Babaji his age. Mahavatar Babaji responded that he
          > was about 500 years old at that time.[4]"
          > >
          > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavatar_Babaji
          > >
          > > I've no doubt Paul Twitchell heard the stories about Babaji when he lived near
          > the Self-Revelation compound in D.C. for nearly 5 years from 1950-1955. Eckankar
          > stories have it that Paul Twitchell met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951. Notice how it
          > says "first met ... in 1951":
          > >
          > > "Paul first met Rebazar Tarzs in 1951 in the foothills of the Himalayas near
          > Darjeeling. [....]" - Harold Klemp
          > >
          > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/man2.html
          > >
          > > OK. So David Lane talked with Paul Twitchell's first wife who lived with him
          > at the ashram. David writes:
          > >
          > > "Hmm, his first wife, Camille Ballowe Taylor, states univocally that they
          > never traveled together (or apart) from 1946 to 1955 anywhere outside of the
          > United States. Indeed, she says Paul and her were doing the 'Self-Revelation
          > Church of Absolute Monism' at the time and helping to edit their publications.
          > [....]"
          > >
          > > http://dlane5.tripod.com/reba1.html
          > >
          > > Harold Klemp writes:
          > >
          > > "Paul became interested in occult teachings around 1950. About this time he
          > hooked up with Swami Premananda, who headed the Self-Revelation Church of
          > Absolute Monism in Washington, D.C. Paul and his wife lived in the ashram on
          > church property for quite some time."
          > >
          > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/hisStory.html#trail
          > >
          > > According to David Lane:
          > >
          > > He [Paul Twitchell] replaced the names of his actual teachers, Swami
          > Premananda and Kirpal Singh, with the names "Sudar Singh" and "Rebazar Tarzs."
          > >
          > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
          > >
          > > I'm not certain why David Lane wrote that. Perhaps he had some literal
          > examples to back up the statement. What is interesting to me is that Paul
          > Twitchell did "go from Premananda to Kirpal Singh". (Remember, according to
          > Paul's story - the later version, at least - it was Sudar Singh who led him to
          > Rebazar Tarzs.
          > >
          > > The whole thing gets really confusing because "Sudar Singh" also appears in
          > place of Kirpal Singh.
          > >
          > > Chapter 1, March-April, 1966, Orion Magazine: "Each has had a place in my
          > growth toward the spiritual goal; each are equally great in their work for
          > mankind. However, I have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Kirpal
          > Singh, who has shown me a lot of the other work during my first year or so under
          > him. Since we have parted he keeps an impartial view toward me and my research.
          > Therefore, if I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that he is
          > sympathetic and interested in my work."
          > >
          > > Chapter 1, The Flute of God, 1970: "Each has had a place in my growth toward
          > the spiritual goal; each is equally great in his work for mankind. However, I
          > have felt a closer kinship and friendliness to Sudar Singh, who showed me a
          > lot of the other work, during my first year or so under him. Since we have
          > parted he has retained an impartial view toward me and my research.
          > > "If I quote him in these pages it is because I feel that he is
          > sympathetic and interested in my work and led me to Rebazar Tarzs."
          > >
          > > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Five.htm
          > >
          > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm2.html
          > >
          > > http://webspace.webring.com/people/de/eckcult/chapters/tmsm5.html
          > >
          > > Sudar Singh led Paul Twitchell to Rebazar Tarzs?
          > >
          > > Sudar Singh often spoke of Rebazar Tarzs?
          > >
          > > Paul Twitchell heard much of Rebazar Tarzs from Sudar Singh?
          > >
          > > [Then where is Sudar Singh mentioned in the book: Those Wonderful Eck Masters?
          > Where is Sudar Singh depicted in the new pictorial timeline of Eckankar Masters
          > displayed at public Eckankar events?]
          > >
          > > IMO, stories are what they are. Whether true or false is debatable.
          > >
          >
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