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Fw: THE THREE MARGS (was-Another Look At Klemp's EK LEXICON)

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  • Gnothe Seauton
    ... From: santimvah To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous-owner@yahoogroups.com Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:54 PM Subject: Re: THE
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 26, 2011
      ----- Forwarded Message -----
      From: santimvah <santimvah@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous-owner@yahoogroups.com
      Cc:
      Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:54 PM
      Subject: Re: THE THREE MARGS (was-Another Look At Klemp's EK LEXICON)

      Re: THE THREE MARGS (was-Another Look At Klemp's EK LEXICON)

      Hi,

      This original post from 2008 came up during a search on google .. and seeing I recently found some info about the Three Paths to God (or THREE Margs) I thought some people here may like to know more about it.

      In the original post Prometheus wrote:

      > Hello All,
      > I was looking at the definition of Margs
      > (and the different ones) in the EK Lexicon.
      > It's strange that a "marg" is defined as "a
      > path to God" and yet it is found within a
      > religion that is supposed to be it's own
      > path to God!
      >
      > The Path of the Masters lists these
      > margs in Ch.2 Section 10:
      >
      > Gian-Marg
      > Dharma-Marg
      > Surat Shabd Marg
      > Bhakti-Marg
      >

      That info might make more sense if I may adjust that to this,  ...

      Jnana or Gian Marg (Knowledge & Wisdom)

      Dharma or Karma Marg (Action, Doing good, Integrity etc)

      Bhakti or Devotion Marg (Divine Love beyond the ego-self)

      These are the THREE PATHS to GOD and these are mentioned in various language & semantics in many/most of the eastern teachings.

      On the other hand ....

      Surat Shabd Marg .. that is a later *creation* to ride on the shoulders of those who have gone before, as a way to re-identify the then *current teaching* by whomever; in this particular case Soamiji Maharaj (Shiv Dayal Singh) of RS and those that came after him.

      For by the time that he came along the teachings from the 16th century had again morphed out of control or any close resemblance to the true spiritual essences. So in this case one has Tulsi Sahib Param Sant Tulsi Sahib of Hathras, and others closely connected to him ... verses  whatever the religion may have become by then .. eg 19th century version of the *religions* or PANTHS of various prior Sants & the Naths.

      So essentially Surat Shabd Marg refers to Sant Mat and the Light and Sound teachings that basically started openly (or at least known about now historically) in India via Ramananda, Kabir, Nanak, the Naths and so forth. But primarily via the many Bhakti Gurus who all came to the for in the 15th & 16th centuries .. iow the exact same timing of when Paul said the character Rebazar Tarzs was alive.

      I also recently came across the term *ECK Marg* -- simply the same approach .. the re-labelling the *concept of 3 paths to god* into a specific OUTER SINGLE Path to be seen as different than all the others.

      And as Prometheus pointed out, from these 3 core Margs came several more multiple alternatives for MARGS within Eckankar. Do they mean anything really? Well if people believe they do, then I suppose on one level they mean something to them.

      I fail to see any difference between an Arahata Marg and a Karma Marg. None whatsoever, for they are one and the same - *action* that is supposed to generate some positive Karma and experiences for the individual entering into such ACTIVITY.

      --------------------


      The other point to know about this history is that all of them were strongly related to RAMA myth/aspects via the more ancient Vedanta sects of Hinduism, which by this time ahas spilt into hundreds of religions/paths and the original teachings had been seriously corrupted over centuries by the *priestcraft*.

      ( I mention this because of Paul's (and later Harold's) repeated references to Ramaj or Rama the ARYAN in his *ancient history* reports )

      What happened during the 15th/16th centuries was an attempt by many to  *spontaneously & also non-connected* to openly revolt against the mundane (dumbed down teachings) and the outer power of the Brahmins and the Moghul Muslims over people, intending to be a spiritual revival of the *original core truths* of the ancient Aryan teachings that predate known human history -- iow ancient myths lost in time.

      Whilst Kabir may be one of the most known in these days there were very many others. eg Eka Sarana Hari Nama Dharma from the Assam region under Sankaradeva.

      eg
      The name of the religion he had propagated is Eka-Sarana Hari-Nāma Dharma, the Religion of Taking Refuge with the One God only. This Eka-Sarana had been accepted from the Srimad-Bhagavad Gita. Let us discuss here the four slokas from the Gita
      http://www.atributetosankaradeva.org/Eka-Sarana_Hari-Nama_Dharma.pdf

      and
      In the religious system introduced by Sankaradeva, a man becomes a devotee by the act of initiation which is itself referred to as sarana. Although the initiate takes shelter in One (eka-sarana), he is required to prostrate himself before each of the four reals (cāri vastu) in turn - Guru (Preceptor), Deva (God), Nāma (Name) and Bhakata (Devotee) - saying, "I take shelter in the Guru", "I take shelter in God", "I take shelter in Name" and "I take shelter in Bhakata."

      These four things, which constitute the essence of the devotional experience in Assam Vaisnavism, are held to be one and indivisible such that each presupposes the existence of the other three.

      (Does any of that sound familiar?)

      This key difference with this sect and others referred to generally above was it preferred Krishna, although Rama was also seen as a key.

      quotes:
      (about Naam - Nam - name chanting)
      Whose name `Rāma-Krishna' serves as a boat, as it were,
      Ferrying all sinners across the world-ocean
      Towards the supreme abode
      Such a Lord Krishna,
      Who is eternal and ever-joyous,
      I always worship in my heart.
      http://www.atributetosankaradeva.org/ghosa_passages.htm

      (from a play written by Sankaradeva)
      Krishna or Rama now appears as an ordinary man who is also tormented by physical, mental and spiritual conflicts. The greatest lesson that one has to draw from this, Shankara Deva tells his audience, is this:

      - the Lord Himself has undergone trials in life, that He acted in a way that is not different from theirs.

      However, what is a distinctively remarkable feature is the continuous interaction of the sutradhara in vernacular with the audience till the entire Nat is over. With his shift to the vernacular and to prose, the sutradhara now can take the liberty of focusing on the human qualities of the God than the more distant and the majestically sublime ones that needed the help of ornamental language with Sanskrit slokas and partial dialogue in Sanskrit.

      In the Ankia Nat, BHAKTI now re-claims its centrality over JNANA and KARMA and a meaningful and intimate connection is made between the divine and the human, between man and God, to such an extent that ultimately no barriers remain between the two.
      www.atributetosankaradeva.org/Ankia_Nat_Distinctive_Features.doc

      [ as an aside, to me the old renderings (images) of Sankaradeva look the same as Mahavarta Babaji of Kriya Yoga SRF fame; which again has it's roots within Sanatana Dharma aka Hinduism and more specifically the *sub-sect* of Advaita Vedanta ]

      I am sorry this is so long; but I didn't create the complexity of history nor the connections; that there are many is difficult and yet possibly rewarding.

      Because this next part is the main reason why I am posting this now; and what it is that I only found very recently which should connect clearly back to Johnson and those quotes at the beginning about the three Margs in PotM book .. and the (Jnana) info sourced thru that book and many many others.

      Full TEXT

      THE THREE PATHS TO UNION WITH GOD by Annie Besant 1896 [1925].pdf
      https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0KObtCQpPKbNTZhNTYxZmQtMjFiZi00MDA1LWE4ZDgtMGY3OTA5ZTlmZmVi

      Summary doc of info with quotes (note that there a major spelling errors due to OCR text extracts)

      The Three Paths to God Rama RS Hindu Bhakti Sants PTHA Doc.pdf
      https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0KObtCQpPKbNzg0MjY5NjEtZTBjNi00YjMxLWJkM2QtMmExNDIzODY3YWU5

      I hope the above is useful to someone.

      cheers sean

      >
      >

      I left this part because I thought it was interesting, and somewhat related to my reply here.

      > It's interesting how speed reading reduced
      > Twitchell's comprehension since he missed
      > the 7th and 8th additions to the Six Rays or
      > Ways. Klemp, of course, copied the info and
      > decided to do his own alterations.
      >
      > This is just more proof of ECKankar's fraud!
      >
      > Here's a side-by-side comparison of the
      > spellings of the *AMESH-SPENTA -- HOLY
      > IMMORTALS the Six (plus Two) RAYS and WAYS :
      >
      > The Path (1939)---PT (1973&1986)-------HK (1998)
      > Asa-Vahista..............Asa-Vahista..............Asha-Vahista
      > Vohu-Mano...............Vohu-Mano................Vohu-Mano
      > Khashathra-Vairya..Khashathra-Vairya...Khashathra-Vairya
      > Spenta-Armaiti.........Spenta-Armaiti.............*Armaiti
      > Haurvatat....................*Haurvata...................Haurvatat
      > Ameretatat.................Ameretatat..................*Ameretat
      > *Ahura-Mazda.........*Ameshspenta...........*Amesha Spentas
      > Sraosha.......................*Srasosha.....................Sraosha
      >
      > Notice that Klemp's rewrite matches "The Path
      > of the Masters" version more than Twitchell's,
      > but goes against the other two on "Ameretat!"
      >
      > ECKists should reread PT's EK Dictonary
      > and HK's EK Lexicon and compare the two!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello All and thanks Sean, I decided to list Eckankar s Margs [ A Path to God ] and give a brief definition of each...all of which can be found in Klemp s
      Message 2 of 3 , Dec 28, 2011
        Hello All and thanks Sean,
        I decided to list Eckankar's
        "Margs" ["A Path to God"]
        and give a brief definition
        of each...all of which can
        be found in Klemp's first
        EK Lexicon. Let's see how
        PT and HK copied, created,
        and distorted religious dogma:

        1) Arahata Marg- A teacher of ECK Satsang Classes
        2) Bhakti Marg- The ECK order of Love
        3) Bihangham Marg- An accelerated method; movement
        of instant projection into any state of consciousness.
        4) ECK Marg- The secret path of the Sound Current
        5) Giani Marg- The path of esoteric wisdom; studying
        at the Temples of Golden Wisdom
        6) Karma Marg- The approach to God via selflessness
        and harmonious deeds.
        7) Prapatti Marg- Way of liberation by complete
        surrender and devotion to God via the Master.
        8) Vahana Marg- The order of the missionary...
        these are the preachers and true messengers

        BTW- While looking at the Bihangham
        Marg in HK's first Lexicon I saw these
        topics and definitions of page 23:

        BOOK of LAWS- Fundamental laws that govern
        this universe through Spirit once taught to the
        people the ECK sage MKSHA 35,000 years ago
        in the Indus Valley.

        Really!

        BOOK of LIFE- An enormous book miles
        in length, width, and thickness; entries
        are made by mammoth Angels when a
        Soul reincarnates. It is the BOOK of RECORDS
        that the Lords of Karma examine to determine
        the merits due a person at the time of death.

        Really! They can't put it on a super big flash drive?
        How stupid that Klemp thinks technology means
        nothing and these old "ekplanations" are still valid!!!

        Prometheus


        From: Sean

        > Re: THE THREE MARGS (Another Look At Klemp's EK LEXICON)
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > This original post from 2008 came up during a search on google .. and seeing I recently found some info about the Three Paths to God (or THREE Margs) I thought some people here may like to know more about it.
        >
        > In the original post Prometheus wrote:
        >
        > > Hello All,
        > > I was looking at the definition of Margs
        > > (and the different ones) in the EK Lexicon.
        > > It's strange that a "marg" is defined as "a
        > > path to God" and yet it is found within a
        > > religion that is supposed to be it's own
        > > path to God!
        > >
        > > The Path of the Masters lists these
        > > margs in Ch.2 Section 10:
        > >
        > > Gian-Marg
        > > Dharma-Marg
        > > Surat Shabd Marg
        > > Bhakti-Marg
        > >
        >
        > That info might make more sense if I may adjust that to this,
        >
        > Jnana or Gian Marg (Knowledge & Wisdom)
        >
        > Dharma or Karma Marg (Action, Doing good, Integrity etc)
        >
        > Bhakti or Devotion Marg (Divine Love beyond the ego-self)
        >
        > These are the THREE PATHS to GOD and these are mentioned in various language & semantics in many/most of the eastern teachings.
        >
        > On the other hand ....
        >
        > Surat Shabd Marg .. that is a later *creation* to ride on the shoulders of those who have gone before, as a way to re-identify the then *current teaching* by whomever; in this particular case Soamiji Maharaj (Shiv Dayal Singh) of RS and those that came after him.
        >
        > For by the time that he came along the teachings from the 16th century had again morphed out of control or any close resemblance to the true spiritual essences. So in this case one has Tulsi Sahib Param Sant Tulsi Sahib of Hathras, and others closely connected to him ... verse  whatever the religion may have become by then .. eg 19th century version of the *religions* or PANTHS of various prior Sants & the Naths.
        >
        > So essentially Surat Shabd Marg refers to Sant Mat and the Light and Sound teachings that basically started openly (or at least known about now historically) in India via Ramananda, Kabir, Nanak, the Naths and so forth. But primarily via the many Bhakti Gurus who all came to the for in the 15th & 16th centuries .. iow the exact same timing of when Paul said the character Rebazar Tarzs was alive.
        >
        > I also recently came across the term *ECK Marg* -- simply the same approach .. the re-labelling the *concept of 3 paths to god* into a specific OUTER SINGLE Path to be seen as different than all the others.
        >
        > And as Prometheus pointed out, from these 3 core Margs came several more multiple alternatives for MARGS within Eckankar. Do they mean anything really? Well if people believe they do, then I suppose on one level they mean something to them.
        >
        > I fail to see any difference between an Arahata Marg and a Karma Marg. None whatsoever, for they are one and the same - *action* that is supposed to generate some positive Karma and experiences for the individual entering into such ACTIVITY.
        >
        > --------------------
        >
        >
        > The other point to know about this history is that all of them were strongly related to RAMA myth/aspects via the more ancient Vedanta sects of Hinduism, which by this time ahas spilt into hundreds of religions/paths and the original teachings had been seriously corrupted over centuries by the *priestcraft*.
        >
        > ( I mention this because of Paul's (and later Harold's) repeated references to Ramaj or Rama the ARYAN in his *ancient history* reports )
        >
        > What happened during the 15th/16th centuries was an attempt by many to  *spontaneously & also non-connected* to openly revolt against the mundane (dumbed down teachings) and the outer power of the Brahmins and the Moghul Muslims over people, intending to be a spiritual revival of the *original core truths* of the ancient Aryan teachings that predate known human history -- iow ancient myths lost in time.
        >
        > Whilst Kabir may be one of the most known in these days there were very many others. eg Eka Sarana Hari Nama Dharma from the Assam region under Sankaradeva.
        >
        > eg
        > The name of the religion he had propagated is Eka-Sarana Hari-Nāma Dharma, the Religion of Taking Refuge with the One God only. This Eka-Sarana had been accepted from the Srimad-Bhagavad Gita. Let us discuss here the four slokas from the Gita
        > http://www.atributetosankaradeva.org/Eka-Sarana_Hari-Nama_Dharma.pdf
        >
        > and
        > In the religious system introduced by Sankaradeva, a man becomes a devotee by the act of initiation which is itself referred to as sarana. Although the initiate takes shelter in One (eka-sarana), he is required to prostrate himself before each of the four reals (cāri vastu) in turn - Guru (Preceptor), Deva (God), Nāma (Name) and Bhakata (Devotee) - saying, "I take shelter in the Guru", "I take shelter in God", "I take shelter in Name" and "I take shelter in Bhakata."
        >
        > These four things, which constitute the essence of the devotional experience in Assam Vaisnavism, are held to be one and indivisible such that each presupposes the existence of the other three.
        >
        > (Does any of that sound familiar?)
        >
        > This key difference with this sect and others referred to generally above was it preferred Krishna, although Rama was also seen as a key.
        >
        > quotes:
        > (about Naam - Nam - name chanting)
        > Whose name `Rāma-Krishna' serves as a boat, as it were,
        > Ferrying all sinners across the world-ocean
        > Towards the supreme abode
        > Such a Lord Krishna,
        > Who is eternal and ever-joyous,
        > I always worship in my heart.
        > http://www.atributetosankaradeva.org/ghosa_passages.htm
        >
        > (from a play written by Sankaradeva)
        > Krishna or Rama now appears as an ordinary man who is also tormented by physical, mental and spiritual conflicts. The greatest lesson that one has to draw from this, Shankara Deva tells his audience, is this:
        >
        > - the Lord Himself has undergone trials in life, that He acted in a way that is not different from theirs.
        >
        > However, what is a distinctively remarkable feature is the continuous interaction of the sutradhara in vernacular with the audience till the entire Nat is over. With his shift to the vernacular and to prose, the sutradhara now can take the liberty of focusing on the human qualities of the God than the more distant and the majestically sublime ones that needed the help of ornamental language with Sanskrit slokas and partial dialogue in Sanskrit.
        >
        > In the Ankia Nat, BHAKTI now re-claims its centrality over JNANA and KARMA and a meaningful and intimate connection is made between the divine and the human, between man and God, to such an extent that ultimately no barriers remain between the two.
        > www.atributetosankaradeva.org/Ankia_Nat_Distinctive_Features.doc
        >
        > [ as an aside, to me the old renderings (images) of Sankaradeva look the same as Mahavarta Babaji of Kriya Yoga SRF fame; which again has it's roots within Sanatana Dharma aka Hinduism and more specifically the *sub-sect* of Advaita Vedanta ]
        >
        > I am sorry this is so long; but I didn't create the complexity of history nor the connections; that there are many is difficult and yet possibly rewarding.
        >
        > Because this next part is the main reason why I am posting this now; and what it is that I only found very recently which should connect clearly back to Johnson and those quotes at the beginning about the three Margs in PotM book .. and the (Jnana) info sourced thru that book and many many others.
        >
        > Full TEXT
        >
        > THE THREE PATHS TO UNION WITH GOD by Annie Besant 1896 [1925].pdf
        > https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0KObtCQpPKbNTZhNTYxZmQtMjFiZi00MDA1LWE4ZDgtMGY3OTA5ZTlmZmVi
        >
        > Summary doc of info with quotes (note that there a major spelling errors due to OCR text extracts)
        >
        > The Three Paths to God Rama RS Hindu Bhakti Sants PTHA Doc.pdf
        > https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0KObtCQpPKbNzg0MjY5NjEtZTBjNi00YjMxLWJkM2QtMmExNDIzODY3YWU5
        >
        > I hope the above is useful to someone.
        >
        > cheers sean
        >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > I left this part because I thought it was interesting, and somewhat related to my reply here.
        >
        > > It's interesting how speed reading reduced
        > > Twitchell's comprehension since he missed
        > > the 7th and 8th additions to the Six Rays or
        > > Ways. Klemp, of course, copied the info and
        > > decided to do his own alterations.
        > >
        > > This is just more proof of ECKankar's fraud!
        > >
        > > Here's a side-by-side comparison of the
        > > spellings of the *AMESH-SPENTA -- HOLY
        > > IMMORTALS the Six (plus Two) RAYS and WAYS :
        > >
        > > The Path (1939)---PT (1973&1986)-------HK (1998)
        > > Asa-Vahista..............Asa-Vahista..............*Asha-Vahista
        > > Vohu-Mano...............Vohu-Mano................Vohu-Mano
        > > Khashathra-Vairya..Khashathra-Vairya...Khashathra-Vairya
        > > Spenta-Armaiti.........Spenta-Armaiti.............*Armaiti
        > > Haurvatat....................*Haurvata...................Haurvatat
        > > Ameretatat.................Ameretatat..................*Ameretat
        > > *Ahura-Mazda.........*Ameshspenta...........*Amesha Spentas
        > > Sraosha.......................*Srasosha.....................Sraosha
        > >
        > > Notice that Klemp's rewrite matches "The Path
        > > of the Masters" version more than Twitchell's,
        > > but goes against the other two on "Ameretat!"
        > >
        > > ECKists should reread PT's EK Dictonary
        > > and HK's EK Lexicon and compare the two!
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello All, The following was sent to ESA s mail box: Churchward connected Rama back to Ra Mu , apparently. Search for Ra Mu and compare p. 24 (see link) with
        Message 3 of 3 , Dec 30, 2011
          Hello All,
          The following was sent
          to ESA's mail box:

          Churchward connected "Rama" back to Ra Mu", apparently.

          Search for Ra Mu and compare p. 24 (see link) with p. 57 from
          Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Vol. 1

          http://campbellmgold.com/archive_esoteric/lost_continent_mu_churchward_1931.pdf

          Next search for Ra Ma (at link). See second-last paragraph on p. 68.

          http://campbellmgold.com/archive_esoteric/lost_continent_mu_churchward_1931.pdf

          The last two paragraphs on page 68 suggest a Ra Ma in India thousands of years
          before the "Aryan invasion".

          According to sources quoted by Churchward, India was settled (by Mayas) via
          Burma and from the East. (3rd-last paragraph, p. 53, on Churchward link)

          *********

          If Paul Twitchell compiled "history" from Churchward (Churchward's book is part
          of the Paul Twitchell recommended reading list at back of Letters to Gail, Vol.
          1) and Paul was familiar with Ra Mu & Ra Ma, then why have Rama coming to India
          from the West (deep forests of Germany, etc.)?

          However, The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, Vol. 1, mentions a Rama coming out of the high
          valleys of Tibet. This Rama appears contemporary with the 5th root race, or the
          Aryan. (P. 60 SKS, Vol. 1)

          Khara Khota was mentioned twice in the book (by Churchward) and was apparently
          connected with the Aryans. [end]

          ME: Interesting, except, Twitchell
          stated that the first Root Race, The
          Polarians (Garden of Eden), began
          when? ECK Master Mksha, supposedly,
          was here 35,000 years ago giving
          people his Laws. Which Root Race
          did they belong to? It's nice that
          Twitchell was among the trusted
          resources for this "history."

          BTW-Klemp mimics PT and mentions
          Khara Khota in his 1998 EK Lexicon.
          It's listed as the capital city of the
          empire of Uighur in Central Asia in
          the Gobi Desert during the time
          of the fifth root race, the Aryans.


          ***********************************

          prometheus_wrote:
          >
          Hello All and thanks Sean,
          I decided to list Eckankar's
          "Margs" ["A Path to God"]
          and give a brief definition
          of each...all of which can
          be found in Klemp's first
          EK Lexicon. Let's see how
          PT and HK copied, created,
          and distorted religious dogma:
          >
          1) Arahata Marg- A teacher of ECK Satsang Classes
          2) Bhakti Marg- The ECK order of Love
          3) Bihangham Marg- An accelerated method; movement
          of instant projection into any state of consciousness.
          4) ECK Marg- The secret path of the Sound Current
          5) Giani Marg- The path of esoteric wisdom; studying
          at the Temples of Golden Wisdom
          6) Karma Marg- The approach to God via selflessness
          and harmonious deeds.
          7) Prapatti Marg- Way of liberation by complete
          surrender and devotion to God via the Master.
          8) Vahana Marg- The order of the missionary...
          these are the preachers and true messengers

          Prometheus
          >
          >
          From: Sean
          >
          Re: THE THREE MARGS (Another Look At Klemp's EK LEXICON)
          > >
          Hi,
          > >
          This original post from 2008 came up during a search on google .. and seeing I
          recently found some info about the Three Paths to God (or THREE Margs) I thought
          some people here may like to know more about it.
          > >
          In the original post Prometheus wrote:
          > >
          Hello All,
          I was looking at the definition of Margs
          (and the different ones) in the EK Lexicon.
          It's strange that a "marg" is defined as "a
          path to God" and yet it is found within a
          religion that is supposed to be it's own
          path to God!
          > > >
          The Path of the Masters lists these
          margs in Ch.2 Section 10:
          > > >
          Gian-Marg
          Dharma-Marg
          Surat Shabd Marg
          Bhakti-Marg
          > > >
          > >
          That info might make more sense if I may adjust that to this,
          > >
          Jnana or Gian Marg (Knowledge & Wisdom)
          > >
          Dharma or Karma Marg (Action, Doing good, Integrity etc)
          > >
          Bhakti or Devotion Marg (Divine Love beyond the ego-self)
          > >
          These are the THREE PATHS to GOD and these are mentioned in various language &
          semantics in many/most of the eastern teachings.
          > >
          On the other hand ....
          > >
          Surat Shabd Marg .. that is a later *creation* to ride on the shoulders of those
          who have gone before, as a way to re-identify the then *current teaching* by
          whomever; in this particular case Soamiji Maharaj (Shiv Dayal Singh) of RS and
          those that came after him.
          > >
          For by the time that he came along the teachings from the 16th century had again
          morphed out of control or any close resemblance to the true spiritual essences.
          So in this case one has Tulsi Sahib Param Sant Tulsi Sahib of Hathras, and
          others closely connected to him ... verse whatever the religion may have become
          by then .. eg 19th century version of the *religions* or PANTHS of various prior
          Sants & the Naths.
          > >
          So essentially Surat Shabd Marg refers to Sant Mat and the Light and Sound
          teachings that basically started openly (or at least known about now
          historically) in India via Ramananda, Kabir, Nanak, the Naths and so forth. But
          primarily via the many Bhakti Gurus who all came to the for in the 15th & 16th
          centuries .. iow the exact same timing of when Paul said the character Rebazar
          Tarzs was alive.
          > >
          I also recently came across the term *ECK Marg* -- simply the same approach ..
          the re-labelling the *concept of 3 paths to god* into a specific OUTER SINGLE
          Path to be seen as different than all the others.
          > >
          And as Prometheus pointed out, from these 3 core Margs came several more
          multiple alternatives for MARGS within Eckankar. Do they mean anything really?
          Well if people believe they do, then I suppose on one level they mean something
          to them.
          > >
          I fail to see any difference between an Arahata Marg and a Karma Marg. None
          whatsoever, for they are one and the same - *action* that is supposed to
          generate some positive Karma and experiences for the individual entering into
          such ACTIVITY.
          > >
          --------------------
          > >
          > >
          The other point to know about this history is that all of them were strongly
          related to RAMA myth/aspects via the more ancient Vedanta sects of Hinduism,
          which by this time ahas spilt into hundreds of religions/paths and the original
          teachings had been seriously corrupted over centuries by the *priestcraft*.
          > >
          ( I mention this because of Paul's (and later Harold's) repeated references to
          Ramaj or Rama the ARYAN in his *ancient history* reports )
          > >
          What happened during the 15th/16th centuries was an attempt by many to
          *spontaneously & also non-connected* to openly revolt against the mundane
          (dumbed down teachings) and the outer power of the Brahmins and the Moghul
          Muslims over people, intending to be a spiritual revival of the *original core
          truths* of the ancient Aryan teachings that predate known human history -- iow
          ancient myths lost in time.
          > >
          Whilst Kabir may be one of the most known in these days there were very many
          others. eg Eka Sarana Hari Nama Dharma from the Assam region under Sankaradeva.
          > >
          eg
          The name of the religion he had propagated is Eka-Sarana Hari-Nāma Dharma, the
          Religion of Taking Refuge with the One God only. This Eka-Sarana had been
          accepted from the Srimad-Bhagavad Gita. Let us discuss here the four slokas from
          the Gita
          >>
          http://www.atributetosankaradeva.org/Eka-Sarana_Hari-Nama_Dharma.pdf
          > >
          and
          In the religious system introduced by Sankaradeva, a man becomes a devotee by
          the act of initiation which is itself referred to as sarana. Although the
          initiate takes shelter in One (eka-sarana), he is required to prostrate himself
          before each of the four reals (cāri vastu) in turn - Guru (Preceptor), Deva
          (God), Nāma (Name) and Bhakata (Devotee) - saying, "I take shelter in the
          Guru", "I take shelter in God", "I take shelter in Name" and "I take shelter in
          Bhakata."
          > >
          These four things, which constitute the essence of the devotional experience in
          Assam Vaisnavism, are held to be one and indivisible such that each presupposes
          the existence of the other three.
          > >
          (Does any of that sound familiar?)
          > >
          This key difference with this sect and others referred to generally above was it
          preferred Krishna, although Rama was also seen as a key.
          > >
          quotes:
          (about Naam - Nam - name chanting)
          Whose name `Rāma-Krishna' serves as a boat, as it were,
          Ferrying all sinners across the world-ocean
          Towards the supreme abode
          Such a Lord Krishna,
          Who is eternal and ever-joyous,
          I always worship in my heart.
          >>
          http://www.atributetosankaradeva.org/ghosa_passages.htm
          > >
          (from a play written by Sankaradeva)
          Krishna or Rama now appears as an ordinary man who is also tormented by
          physical, mental and spiritual conflicts. The greatest lesson that one has to
          draw from this, Shankara Deva tells his audience, is this:
          > >
          - the Lord Himself has undergone trials in life, that He acted in a way that is
          not different from theirs.
          > >
          However, what is a distinctively remarkable feature is the continuous
          interaction of the sutradhara in vernacular with the audience till the entire
          Nat is over. With his shift to the vernacular and to prose, the sutradhara now
          can take the liberty of focusing on the human qualities of the God than the more
          distant and the majestically sublime ones that needed the help of ornamental
          language with Sanskrit slokas and partial dialogue in Sanskrit.
          > >
          In the Ankia Nat, BHAKTI now re-claims its centrality over JNANA and KARMA and a
          meaningful and intimate connection is made between the divine and the human,
          between man and God, to such an extent that ultimately no barriers remain
          between the two.
          >>
          http://www.atributetosankaradeva.org/Ankia_Nat_Distinctive_Features.doc
          > >
          [ as an aside, to me the old renderings (images) of Sankaradeva look the same as
          Mahavarta Babaji of Kriya Yoga SRF fame; which again has it's roots within
          Sanatana Dharma aka Hinduism and more specifically the *sub-sect* of Advaita
          Vedanta ]
          > >
          I am sorry this is so long; but I didn't create the complexity of history nor
          the connections; that there are many is difficult and yet possibly rewarding.
          > >
          Because this next part is the main reason why I am posting this now; and what it
          is that I only found very recently which should connect clearly back to Johnson
          and those quotes at the beginning about the three Margs in PotM book .. and the
          (Jnana) info sourced thru that book and many many others.
          > >
          Full TEXT
          > >
          THE THREE PATHS TO UNION WITH GOD by Annie Besant 1896 [1925].pdf
          https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0KObtCQpPKbNTZhNTYxZmQtMjFiZi00MDA1LWE4ZDgtMGY\
          3OTA5ZTlmZmVi
          > >
          Summary doc of info with quotes (note that there a major spelling errors due to
          OCR text extracts)
          > >
          The Three Paths to God Rama RS Hindu Bhakti Sants PTHA Doc.pdf
          https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B0KObtCQpPKbNzg0MjY5NjEtZTBjNi00YjMxLWJkM2QtMmE\
          xNDIzODY3YWU5
          > >
          I hope the above is useful to someone.
          > >
          cheers sean
          > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          I left this part because I thought it was interesting, and somewhat related to
          my reply here.
          > >
          It's interesting how speed reading reduced
          Twitchell's comprehension since he missed
          the 7th and 8th additions to the Six Rays or
          Ways. Klemp, of course, copied the info and
          decided to do his own alterations.
          > > >
          This is just more proof of ECKankar's fraud!
          > > >
          Here's a side-by-side comparison of the
          spellings of the *AMESH-SPENTA -- HOLY
          IMMORTALS the Six (plus Two) RAYS and WAYS :
          > > >
          The Path (1939)---PT (1973&1986)-------HK (1998)
          Asa-Vahista..............Asa-Vahista..............*Asha-Vahista
          Vohu-Mano...............Vohu-Mano................Vohu-Mano
          Khashathra-Vairya..Khashathra-Vairya...Khashathra-Vairya
          Spenta-Armaiti.........Spenta-Armaiti.............*Armaiti
          Haurvatat....................*Haurvata...................Haurvatat
          Ameretatat.................Ameretatat..................*Ameretat
          *Ahura-Mazda.........*Ameshspenta...........*Amesha Spentas
          Sraosha.......................*Srasosha.....................Sraosha
          > > >
          Notice that Klemp's rewrite matches "The Path
          of the Masters" version more than Twitchell's,
          but goes against the other two on "Ameretat!"
          > > >
          ECKists should reread PT's EK Dictonary
          and HK's EK Lexicon and compare the two!
          > > >
          Prometheus
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