Re: Why Doesn't ECKankar Have More and Higher H.I.s?
- Hello Sharon and All,
I'd like to respond to
your comments below:
Hi Austin & Prometheus,
Maybe it's just me, but reading the daily digest of this thread, it seems to me
that there's some misunderstanding of what the other's saying.
Austin - I think what you're saying perhaps refers to Prometheus frequently
posting about initiations & the "glass ceiling", and not exactly the language he
uses. "Eckspeak" is a handy term, plus any word using the prefix "eck" is, in
my opinion, insulting - at least, that's how I always try to use it, like making
up words like "eckancrap". Also, there's that cult language that's a part of
every cult/religion/ (or sports! <gg>) - the way they express their beliefs &
dogma - I can still speak/write that way because it's a very effective way of
addressing the b.s. in a way even totally brainwashed true-blue ecksheep can
understand, and then you can knock that particular belief down with the same
"eckspeak", because ekult "teachings" don't even agree with themselves. Do you
know what I mean? When you're in a foreign country, you need to speak the
language in order to communicate effectively.
Prometheus - I've noticed you frequently point out the ridiculousness of the
initiation system. Now, don't take this the wrong way - you've been where I
haven't been, up there at the "top". I have no idea how other eckists feel
about those initiations, but I was never really that interested in them, I
remember when I got my pink slip for my third, the letter said something like
congratultions, you've mastered the astral plane - and I thought whoa, I haven't
mastered earth yet and I doubt if I ever will!
ME: Let me say that many longtime
H.I.s, mostly 5ths & 6ths, are frustrated
with the slowing down of the initiations
and the additional service and training
hoops that are now required to jump
through. Of course there are many 7ths
that are frustrated as well because they
have topped out. Many of these H.I.s
have been 7ths for 20-25 years. Forgive
me for saying this, too, but those Eckists
who sat on their hands and didn't take
things seriously and volunteer with time
service, and coin were mostly seen as
flies in the ointment. I remember one
person, long ago, say that all she wanted
was to make it to the 2nd initiation so
that she wouldn't have to reincarnate
back to this ash can.
An eckist friend, years after I got out, admitted they thought it was all b.s.
but dammit, they'd spent 20 years in the cult, and by golly they'd earned that
5th initiation, and they wanted to be able to perform marriages, etc. Good
So, maybe the frequent bitching about how initiations have been slowed down &
basically frozen over the years is a very effective way of communicating with
eckists who give those initiations importance.
On the other hand - and oh horrors, I feel awful about this, but perhaps,
Prometheus, sometimes you come across as someone who'd placed a great deal of
importance on the initiations and were pissed off that you were frozen. And
I've learned that yes, although they meant nothing to me, they mean a lot to
many eckists, some of whom seem to base their self-worth on their Official Cult
ME: Yes, I and most others who took
Eckankar seriously did put importance
on the initiations since they were, supposedly,
linked to Higher Consciousness, i.e. God
Realization, which was/is a main goal for
true believers. It's all about surrendering
to a belief. True again, I and all of those
current longtime Eckists bought into the
dogma hook, line and sinker whereas you,
obviously, had not. Perhaps that's why it's
difficult for you to relate to the importance
of what I (we) experienced.
I never knew many HIs, and to be honest, was a bit shocked when towards the end
I attended a big seminar & volunteered, and got a *very* bad impression of HIs
as a group, they seemed like a bunch of total idiots who were stuck on
themselves and their "status".
ME: True, some H.I.s were/are stuck
on status... it's an ego test/trap for
many including Klemp. However, we
were once instructed to hang with
H.I.s in order to have their higher
consciousness rub off on us and to
learn from them. However, the more
one hangs with H.I.s the more the
personality flaws surface.... which
makes one wonder about their actual
level of consciousness (initiation).
It was suggested that one can't tell
a book by it's cover, but later Klemp
talked about the need for H.I.s to
report those H.I.s exhibiting negative
behaviors. It was puzzling that these
H.I.s weren't demoted, but this was
explained away by saying that consciousness
is won and lost daily or even moment
to moment. Still, when negative behavior
is common one has to wonder why
these H.I.s are promoted to higher
levels. Thus, common sense tends
to promote one's skepticism and that's
why some of us needed to throw both
out the window in order to believe and
accept (brainwash ourselves) the Mahanta.
After 30 years one has to believe or
else they wouldn't have stayed so long.
I think it's quite possible that many start out because of a true spirituality,
but the cult places so much emphasis on "advancement", on recruiting, earning
more initiations, giving "service" to the cult - which means recruiting and
putting on programs & stuff to keep current members busy with cult stuff. In
fact, I think few people are aware of what Twitch's original plans for cult
members were, to keep them busy 24/7 with books, tapes, doing the spex, going to
meetings, and writing reports about what they were learning, etc. He quickly
learned that it wasn't necessary to keep his ecksheep so busy, though - and he
didn't have to work as hard as he originally thought he'd have to.
I remember awhile back, reading one of Klemp's "new" discourses, I forget which
specific one it was, but it focused on the issue of the "outer" initiations
being slowed down, and said that people shouldn't be concerned because they'd
get lots of inner "mini" initiations - ha, like 5.1, etc. This IMO is just
another way the cult gets people to fantasize whatever they need to keep them
happy & continue to send in their $.
ME: True, Klemp talked about mini
inner initiations or steps before the
next big one resulting in an outer
confirmation. There must be a lot
of 7.99 initiates out there in EK lala
I remember years back, comments about the whole world's "spiritual progress",
like when they made hu-chants "public" and started the Official Cult Sunday
Worship Service - some eckists were disturbed that the high-holey "hu" seemed to
be being downgraded, but my group's HI, who often seemed disturbed about things
personally but kept her mouth shut & did as she was told, explained that the
"public" hu-chants had lower "vibes" than the "higher" members-only ones. And
when they started the Official Clergy thing, which seemed to me (and others) as
totally not-eck, she explained that it didn't really mean anything, it just made
it possible for eckists to visit in prisons & hospitals, etc., and get better
parking spaces. <gg>
ME: True, that's why H.I. retreats,
like the one in Texas, is so popular.
The "vibes" are seen to be higher
and more refined because H.I.s
are more spiritually evolved. Of
course they're all acting "as if"
and being on their best behavior
in non or low stress situations.
Still, you'd be surprised to find
those who aren't all that friendly
and attempt to "read" you. The
truth is that most, active, H.I.s are
aware of the RESA police and their
spies. I should know... I've done
my share of spying and reporting
Supposedly, the whole earth grew spiritually, I forget which initiation it's
supposedly in, but unless they totally dropped that particular nonsense, I'd
think it would've gotten another one by now! <gg> Whether it "earned" it or
Okay, just some thoughts here!!
Austin Atma wrote:
>system. Analysis of the card stock used to build the house of cards.
> From one perspective these questions reinforce the fundamentally delusional
>and broadened as we learn to implement what we learn.
> Life provides initiatory experiences and our "spiritual" vision is deepened
>system of control and influence.
> The self-created drama of initiation and status bestowed is a distractive
>long after membership has been severed. The use of the eckankar priestcraft
> The master mirage we imbued with our own capacity to love and connect lives on
language reinforces the illusions and the symbiotic memes that are still active
in many of us.
> On Nov 19, 2011, at 2:56 PM, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
> > Hello All,
> > It occurred to me
> > to ask something...
> > some ECK trivia.
> > Is Klemp, as the
> > Physical (or lower)
> > Plane Living ECK
> > Master (LEM), a 12th
> > Initiate or is he a
> > 14th Initiate? Is the
> > LEM (outer) position
> > limited to being a
> > 12th?
> > Now, I know that
> > as the Inner Plane
> > "Mahanta" HK's
> > supposed to be
> > a 14th, but is that,
> > also, true as/for
> > the LEM? Or, is HK,
> > also, a 14th Plane
> > LEM?
> > You see, there's that
> > "coarse vibration" thing
> > going on.... right?
> > Isn't this why more
> > H.I.s can't be too
> > refined or advanced
> > in order to protect
> > themselves (Soul)
> > from such coarseness,
> > here, on the Physical
> > Plane?
> > Is this why most imagine
> > themselves to be "higher"
> > on the "inner planes?"
> > But, it's okay for Klemp
> > to be able to handle the
> > coarse vibes, except, for
> > EMF! If Klemp can't handle
> > it then maybe he's not
> > as "high" as he claims...
> > maybe HK fell from Sugmad's
> > Grace (like Darwin) and
> > is hiding this fact. ECKists
> > had good dreams with
> > Darwin showing up with
> > a Blue Light or Blue Star
> > during the time he, supposedly,
> > fell... according to Klemp
> > who, btw, received, more
> > than a half dozen Higher
> > Initiations from Darwin.
> > Really, though, since
> > ECKankar is such an
> > advanced "spiritual
> > path" why aren't there
> > a dozen or so 12th
> > Initiates along with
> > 11ths, 10ths, and
> > many more 9ths and
> > 8ths?
> > See, this part doesn't
> > make sense, or does it?
> > What's Klemp afraid of
> > or is he just petty and
> > selfish and wants to
> > remain B.M.O.C.?
> > Maybe HK's afraid
> > of competition. If he
> > promoted H.I.'s to these
> > higher initiations, like
> > the 12th, maybe they'd
> > leave and start their own
> > EK Sect. But, wait! They've
> > already done this and
> > one was even a 2nd Initiate!
> > Prometheus
> > prometheus wrote:
> > Hello All,
> > I was thinking back
> > about being passed
> > over for a higher
> > initiation way way
> > back in the late 80s
> > and at the time it
> > really pissed me off.
> > I almost quit then
> > and there and wish
> > I would have. I had
> > ruffled a few feathers
> > and the timing was
> > bad. The initiation
> > list from the ESC had
> > just been received by
> > the RESAs and their
> > pettiness, suspicion,
> > and judgmental attitudes
> > were having an effect
> > upon, mostly, innocent
> > victims of Klemp's RESA
> > hierarchy.
> > Why is Klemp and his
> > RESAs so stingy with
> > Higher Initiations?
> > Anyway, I had to wait
> > awhile but did finally
> > get the pink slip. It
> > wasn't a big deal after
> > all, but we all made it
> > seem so didn't we!
> > Then again, look at
> > all of those leadership
> > classes, intros, Satsang
> > classes, etc., etc. and
> > the time and money we
> > donated. We earned it
> > all but were never "paid"
> > as promised. ECK Initiations
> > are, supposedly, tied
> > directly to consciousness
> > so why does consciousness
> > (for most) end at the
> > 7th Initiation?
> > BTW-Hundreds of 7th
> > Initiates have been stuck
> > on an "older" past level
> > of consciousness which
> > is lower than what many
> > 1st Initiates are at today.
> > [Klemp stated, about ten
> > years ago, that most of
> > those (newbies) coming
> > into Eckankar, today, have
> > a higher state of consciousness
> > over that of many H.I.s]
> > The only noticeable lower
> > and outer plane differences
> > is that newbies (1st Initiates)
> > are less indoctrinated with/by
> > dogma, ESC Guidelines, and
> > are less experienced with
> > putting on a good show and
> > with defensive double talk.
> > Plus, they feel less fearful
> > and less threatened for saying
> > the "wrong" thing or of being
> > too honest and truthful. Of
> > course they're less brainwashed,
> > as well, maybe that's another
> > reason why Klemp thinks
> > they're more pure of consciousness.
> > Eckankar's crap hasn't gummed
> > up the gears just yet and they
> > come across as more "real."
> > Yes, it has to be frustrating
> > and insulting for longtime
> > H.I.s to see Klemp's 30th
> > anniversary coming up for
> > 2012. Will this be his last
> > year? ECKists can only hope!
> > Will HK give Joan a 12th
> > before leaving office? She
> > can only hope! But would a
> > change in leadership produce
> > more and higher initiations?
> > What if it does? They're meaningless
> > anyway!
> > Prometheus
- Hello Diana,
You've got my curiosity.
Please tell me/us more!
Diana Stanley wrote:
I met a perfect soul.
He did not want
followers and did
not have a spiritual
You could listen to
his words and apply
them to your spiritual
He only would let
people attend his
talk for two weeks,
He said everyone has
a guru inside. You are
already connected to
He gave no initiations
or put anyone higher
He introdced me to
a way of spiritual
thinking that I apply
> Hello All,
> Well, it seems that this
> needs a response merely
> to correct some of the
> inaccurate info on Darwin
> if nothing else.
> Re: Why Doesn't ECKankar Have More and Higher H.I.s?
> ----- Forwarded Message -----
> From: shabdamoksha <shabdamoksha@...>
> To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, January 6, 2012 8:09 PM
> Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Doesn't ECKankar Have More and
>Higher HI's?" I emailed Prometheus a response but I will repeat it here. I am an
> Dear Eckankar Survivors Anonymous,
> Responding to your recent post titled: "Why doesn't Eckankar have more and
Ex-Eckist who was a former member of Eckankar for over 17 years. During that
time I had several leadership positions such as a state wide service leader.
>Eckankar can only bring individuals up to the mental plane. Cosmic consciousness
> ME: This leadership position
> must have been a very long
> time ago. I recall State and
> Local Rep positions. Actually
> I forget all the titles. It's like
> trying to remember the various
> words describing ECKankar...
> A Way of Life, The Path of
> Total Awareness, etc., etc.
> The reason that Eckankar cannot give higher initiation levels is because
is the highest level that Eckankar can bring individuals. That is true now but
it wasn't true during Paul Twichell's time. After Paul Twitchell translated it
became a cosmic consciousness path. There are several reasons for this. A reason
why there are also no Masters in Eckankar is because currentlly Eckankar creates
followers and not spiritual masters. As I explained it brings people to cosmic
>declared a successor. He only left a list of six names. The Eckankar leadership
> ME: No! ECKankar (Klemp) can
> and does sell higher initiation
> levels... just not that many 8ths
> or 9ths. And they're as invalid
> as any other religious initiation
> being handed out and sold via
> membership requirements (fees/
> donations). Consciousness has
> to be recognized and achieved
> by the individual and not handed
> out by others. Paul Twitchell was
> no "master" he was a conman,
> liar, wannabe and plagiarist.
> Cosmic Consciousness is merely
> a term used by New Age Westernized
> religious sects to describe the
> benefits of their brand of religion.
> The first reason is that in 1971 when Paul Twitcell translated he never
which included Gail Twitchell, Patty Simpson and others chose Darwin Gross who
was not a Master but only a ninth initiate. Instead when Paul died he gave
Rebazar the rod of power and brought the true path of Eckankar non-public and at
that moment the outer Eckankar became an offshoot. It was at that moment that
Eckankar was no longer the highest path to God even though it claimed to be.
>Realization in 25 years and he guaranteed an initiate can reach God Realization
> ME: Darwin was dating Gail behind
> Paul's back. DG had only been
> an EK member since around 1968
> and was a third initiate at the time
> of Paul's death. Gail claimed to
> have had a dream where Paul told
> her that Darwin was to be the LEM.
> Gail was running the show and
> had the Board's support. Darwin
> was made a 5th initiate by the EK
> Board in order to receive the Rod
> of ECK Power on Oct 22, 1971...
> 35 days after Paul's death.
> The Rebazar fill-in story was
> one that was dreamed up by
> Klemp. After all, there was no
> need for a fill-in Mahanta since
> the Mahanta was still Paul and
> the story is that there has always
> been a Mahanta whether in a
> physical body or not... not every
> LEM is a Mahanta. A picture was
> done showing Paul giving the
> Rod to Darwin.
> Klemp altered this story to fit
> the dogma requiring a LEM to
> pass the Rod. And, HK inferred
> that Darwin was a 13th initiate
> and was merely a Mahanta "in
> training" and not a "full" Mahanta
> like himself. Thus, the Blue
> Carnations given to Darwin
> when he went on stage only
> indicated that DG was a
> Only the LEM needs a physical
> body. The ECK dogma requires
> the LEM to pass the Rod (position)
> to the next LEM. Thus, the ageless,
> imaginary Rebazar who Paul
> dreamed up to initiate him is
> the natural choice for fill-in.
> Rebazar Tarzs, supposedly,
> has his same 500 year old
> physical body and took the
> place of the Living ECK Master
> (Paul) for 35 days in order to
> pass the Rod of ECK Power
> to a fake Master (Darwin) who,
> later, passed it to Klemp! This
> way Klemp can die while in
> office and RT, via Joan's dream,
> can pass the Rod to her choice.
> Of course, Rebazar didn't really
> fill-in as LEM for 35 days because
> he was nowhere in sight! He
> didn't attend any "physical"
> meetings or take any calls
> or make himself available as
> Klemp would have ECKists
> imagine. It didn't happen!
> Can't these longtime ECKists
> remember? No memos or
> articles either! Besides, did
> RT really have to fill-in for
> 35 days as LEM as Klemp
> claims? RT, actually, only
> needed to fill-in for 35 seconds
> in order to Pass the Rod.
> Paul Twitchell made a guarantee that initiates can usually reach God
in this life time or the next.
>the (next) life. Paul brought initiates up through initiations quickly. The
> My friend said: If that guarantee is true than all Eckists would reach it in
reason modern Eckankar has what is called "The Glass Ceiling in Eckankar" is for
>a sixth initiate.
> The first reason is it would disturb the status quo.
> The second reason is that Harold although a good person he is only a sharadda,
>helped to bring me many inner experiences, love, and some karmic help. However
> I do not care to talk negatively about people for when I was in Eckankar he
even though a shradda is not a spiritual Master, a sixth initiate is still a
powerful spiritual being.
>success in spiritual exercises on the inner planes mostly in the lower worlds.
> ME: Wait a minute! God Realization,
> as well as, Self Mastery and Spiritual
> Freedom was guaranteed for "this"
> lifetime as long as one reached the
> 5th. There was no "next" lifetime
> after reaching the 2nd initiation!
> BTW- Klemp is a liar, deceiver and
> an arrogant wannabe. He sought
> those phony book awards by fellow
> publishing companies and paid to be
> listed in Who's Who. HK's not a 6th
> either. Twit created a bunch of
> initiation levels as carrots to be
> dangled in order to appease egos,
> thus, they're all phony and Twitchell,
> their creator, was the phoniest!
> No one has power over you unless
> you give them power... remember
> that? You helped yourself by thinking
> it was someone else. You could
> have placed your attention and
> faith in other areas or with non-living
> "masters" and had the same outcome
> and benefits. What they (the religious
> conmen) don't want you to know
> is that as Soul... YOU are your
> own teacher and master.
> Sure, you can take tid-bits and
> insights from others but don't
> rely upon them...that's the trap!
> Take responsibility and invent
> your own personal relationship
> and religion with YOU and Spirit.
> Besides, what has Klemp said
> that Paul didn't already say via
> his plagiarism of Sant Mat...
> which was another phony religion.
> While a former member of Eckankar, my partner had an extremely high level of
(They were not his imagination) But after 29 years of successful practice he was
still only a 4th initiate. He hit the "Glass Ceiling in Eckankar" and could go
no higher. He felt trapped in the lower worlds and blamed himself. Physically he
was practically dyeing from lack of adequate outflow in spite of his loving
efforts. He was having lots of inner experiences with Paul Twitchell, Rebazar,
and other Masters. I also had many inner experiences but felt held back.
>answered and we both had profound light and sound God Worlds experiences with
> ME: I had some very phenomenal
> experiences prior to Eckankar, while
> in TM, and these weren't imagined
> either. BTW- This 4th hadn't hit the
> "Glass Ceiling in Eckankar." Maybe
> for the outer effort he wanted to
> put into it he had. The "outflow"
> supposedly comes from volunteering
> for intros, as a Satsang Arahata,
> and for local leadership positions,
> etc. There had to be something
> "wrong" with a person who has 29
> years in and is still a 4th. Did he
> fall asleep during meetings, classes,
> and at the EWS and say he was
> getting it all on the "inner?" That's
> frowned upon by RESAs and is
> probably why he wasn't promoted
> if that was the case. I knew of a
> guy who was a 4th with the same
> amount of time as a 4th and this
> was his problem. Maybe it was
> the same guy. I think he finally
> got promoted to the 5th when
> a friend of his became the RESA.
> Shortly after this we called out to God for God Realization. Our call was
the true successor of Paul Twitchel. We had profound experiences of being
brought up to higher states of consciousness much more quickly than Eckankar.
Eckankar is currently only an offshoot and no longer the highest path to God.
>individuals. It is a common misconception that Spiritual Masters are made of
> ME: And who was the "true successor"
> of Paul.... Bernie Madeoff (sic?)? Gail?
> Oops! It couldn't be Gail since it has to
> be a guy right? That old negative atom
> polarity thingie right? So, Eckankar is
> an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot.
> What does that make this other "highest
> path?" Sikhism had the Radasoami offshoot.
> Ruhani Satsang was the offshoot of this
> that Twitchell joined under Kirpal Singh
> and then he created his own offshoot
> Eckankar. So, do you follow the offshoot
> created by Twitchell? True, Klemp created
> his own offshoot of the original Eckankar
> created by Twitchell.
> No person is perfect and it is pointless to dwell on the many human flaws of
plastic, perfect beings incapable of human mistakes and human emotions. Yes, as
many say Paul made human mistakes, because masters are not perfect as many
falsely assume. Masters have emotions and make human errors. The mythology that
masters are perfect is a myth that keeps people believing that Mastership is an
impossible goal of some far distant future, never to be had by any humble
person. But Paul was a true Master even though he made some mistakes. People can
dwell on such superficiality of his tiny mistakes until the cows jump over the
moon but they will never learn the truth because they don't want God.
>experience they were so focused on their initiation, status, dogma, personality
> ME: Is Rebazar Tarzs perfect?
> What mistakes has he made?
> You see, Rebazar is perfect
> because Rebazar is imaginary!
> Rebazar's existence is myth!
> When I shared with a few close friends in Eckankar about my God Realization
worship, habit pattern thought that they didn't hear a word of it or care to
know anything about it. They built a 12 foot high wall of fear and were quick to
judge me. Another friend did care and his life changed overnight.
>the safety of closed off beliefs to embracing God. All I wanted was God. And I
> I feel too many people prefer spiritual fluff, distractions, status, dogma, or
prayed to God for three days to be shown who is the true Mahanta who could bring
me to God and my call was answered. What is the point of being in Eckankar if
not to connect with God, and reach self and God Realization in this life and not
a million years from now.
>Realization because they are afraid to become the spiritual giant that they
> It is like Paul Twichell once said: Only the bold and adventurous find God.
> Many people don't want a true connection with God, Self Realization, or God
already are. I am a spiritual master now and it doesn't concern me if no one
believes me or knows. But I am concerned if people who want to truly connect
with God or God Realization don't because they are being misled by people who
don't love them truly.
> May the blessings be, Shabdamoksha [end]
> ME: God Realization experiences
> are subjective. It was probably
> a Cosmic Consciousness experience.
> Just kidding. However, a rose
> is still a rose by any other name.
> I try not to get caught up in
> classifying, pigeon holing, and
> judging my own private, personal,
> unique spiritual experiences.
> What do I know? True, people
> do go for the religious bullshit.
> New Agers are just as much the
> suckers and fools (not for God)
> as the hugely populated religions.
> BTW- Twit also stated (long ago)
> in the Square Peg article that he
> was a Cliffhanger and that the
> Cliffhanger is his own religion!
> There's a point in everyone's
> life when they has learned enough
> that they no longer need to be
> a joiner. Soul doesn't need mental
> plane dogma and a physical plane
> religion or a master. IT is the Master
> and always has a relationship with