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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Karma and Consciousness

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  • Austin Atma
    Pro said: It s difficult to express one s beliefs without using some/much of that what we have learned during the years of our religious
    Message 1 of 4 , Dec 6, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      Pro said:

      "It's difficult to express
      one's beliefs without using
      some/much of that what
      we have learned during
      the years of our religious
      training/brain-washing...
      including the pre-Eckankar
      years."

      Amen brother/sister!  

      Probably why I enjoy the challenge of trying to communicate in ways that don't rely upon the religious language that we all have been indoctrinated with for so long.  But, yep, there's a place for it when bridges have to be built. 

      I do think it is easy to lose our way and become like the cults - meaning we become "scripted" in the way we respond to the world and to both true believers and everyone else.  Screw the script, I say. 

      AA


      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, December 6, 2011 1:54 PM
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Karma and Consciousness

       
      Hello Diana and All,
      Thanks for sharing your
      thoughts and for getting
      me to rethink some positions.

      IMO-It's really hard to
      say what is what, especially,
      after the Eckankar experience
      and the uncovering of
      more and more religious
      lies. It's difficult to express
      one's beliefs without using
      some/much of that what
      we have learned during
      the years of our religious
      training/brain-washing...
      including the pre-Eckankar
      years.

      Plus, sometimes semantics
      tend to get in the way
      by confusing the issue.

      It is good, however, when
      we are able to use our own
      words and our own unique
      consciousness to express
      ourselves. Eckankar didn't
      allow this, therefore, every
      Vahana (missionary) needed
      to be trained to talk and
      respond in an "approved"
      manner and sound like an
      EK brochure. Even ECK
      Clerics need to have RESA/
      ESC "approved" topics for
      ECK Worship Services (EWS).
      It seems that there is little
      trust that H.I.s (who are
      supposedly higher in
      consciousness to the 4th
      Plane "God" other religions
      worship) actually have the
      inner communication with
      their "Mahanta," or a higher
      awareness to know how
      or which topic to present
      at an EWS. Eckankar has
      too many outer controls
      (Guidelines) for a rational
      person to buy into the
      premise that there is valid
      "inner" and "higher" plane
      communication between
      Klemp and his H.I.s.

      EK Higher Initiations,
      supposedly, represent
      a Higher Consciousness
      and greater "Inner"
      communication/
      awareness with the Will
      of the Mahanta/Klemp?
      So, why does Klemp have
      all of the controls on
      speech via the guidelines
      if this was true? Why have
      "outer" physical plane
      seminars for H.I.s?

      Most ECKists don't know
      about the extent of the
      EK "Guidelines" but these
      even show How the ECK
      Centers are to be decorated
      and which books are to
      be displayed, and how,
      and which ones are no
      longer in vogue. I'm not
      clear on this... do Eckists
      believe they have "spiritual
      freedom," now, or will they
      have it later (in the next life)
      after achieving a "Master's"
      consciousness?

      An EK leader needs to give
      the impression that they are
      "plugged-in" to the will of
      the Mahanta (the "God" they
      pray to, contemplate upon,
      dream of, and beseech with
      requests... parking spaces
      included... really!).

      Yes, I agree that consciousness
      is always in flux, as is matter.

      I guess that consciousness will
      incarnate, but does that mean
      that people (or Souls) do as well?
      I'm not so sure about that or
      how and why that works. Maybe
      it's truer that it's consciousness
      that incarnates while people
      merely live and die but are the
      vehicles of/for consciousness.

      Is "Soul" a part of this consciousness
      or is this just a religious term
      used to explain away or place
      a spin on cosmology and to
      alleviate our fear of death?

      So, what is this consciousness
      and does it have many degrees,
      shapes, meanings, and take
      many forms? I guess we could
      use many terms and words
      to call or rename it (IT?) as we
      please and this is how religions
      are built. Of course with religion
      one group of people always
      has the inside truth over all
      others and has the might to
      be more right and to influence
      and intimidate other groups
      of believers. That's what dogma,
      jargon, and hierarchies are
      all about.

      Perhaps "personality" is this
      consciousness when it takes
      or enters an intelligent form?
      I wonder how much intelligence
      is required for consciousness
      to instill a personality?

      Of course we have the term
      Group Consciousness too.
      Maybe this is more a Group
      Personality than it is consciousness
      or maybe it's just a lower form
      of consciousness?

      IMO Group Consciousness
      (mostly religions and political
      parties) are always at a lower
      level than individuals within
      the group. This is why Eckankar
      only works for those whose
      consciousness has become
      stagnated.

      Prometheus

      Diana Stanley wrote:
      I don't believe in Karma.

      I believe counciousness
      is always taking form.

      When a form is no longer
      able to function or die
      counciousness simply
      returns to itself. The
      aspect of it takes on a
      new form.

      So in away counciousness
      continues to incarnate but
      what we know as the personality
      is for the present life.

      prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Hello Diana and All,
      > Way back before Twitchell
      > became a religious scammer
      > he shared some opinions
      > that, I believe, were insightful.
      > It was when he talked about
      > being the Cliff Hanger and
      > about being your own religion.
      > IMO-This is the true "spiritual"
      > path.
      >
      > Everything is individualized
      > but has a group appeal, like
      > with religion, including one's
      > taste buds! Sometimes it's
      > based upon culture. Even those
      > who get along as best friends
      > don't like the same foods. And,
      > one might like coffee while the
      > other prefers tea. It gets more
      > detailed and individualized even
      > for fellow coffee and tea drinkers.
      >
      > One person might prefer red
      > wine to white or beer to wine
      > or doesn't drink alcohol at all
      > or might make exceptions for
      > special occasions. These choices,
      > too, can become complex. Yet,
      > these same Twin Souls or Soul
      > Mates will share a similar philosophy
      > of life... or so it appears on
      > the surface. After all, religions
      > are based upon the ruling
      > group's opinions. And, unseen/
      > unknown and invisible masters
      > (saints and angels too) prophetic
      > opinions are always the same
      > as the ruling hierarchy... why
      > is that?
      >
      > I believe that we all travel
      > a unique path which is
      > comprised of fate and
      > choice driven cycles. But
      > alterations to this path/
      > journey, created by choices,
      > will influence future choices
      > and even fate. The journey
      > can change.
      >
      > I'm not so sure that karma
      > is a truism. It helps to explain
      > away a lot of bad things and
      > gives people hope. Plus, bad
      > people will be punished in
      > the next lifetime. Or, are they,
      > now, being punished in this
      > lifetime?
      >
      > Therefore, why help a person
      > who, obviously, made bad choices
      > in a previous lifetime? Or, if
      > you think you have some
      > unresolved karma with someone
      > why not go for it, now, instead
      > of remaining true to one's
      > mate since that "karma" has,
      > obviously, been resolved?
      > This is how many ECKists
      > tend to rationalize and why
      > they will jump from relationship
      > to relationship!
      >
      > All in all, it seems that
      > most people make choices
      > according to what they
      > think they really believe
      > or what they think they
      > should, need, and want
      > to believe. One can go
      > through the motions
      > and fake it for others
      > and even for oneself,
      > to a certain extent, for
      > years and years.
      >
      > However, most people
      > don't want to admit that
      > their opinions are influenced
      > more by others, some they
      > don't even know or would
      > have much in common with,
      > than they think. Not many
      > can block out the effects of
      > advertising and subliminal
      > messages because people
      > want to belong to or identify
      > with some group. It's even
      > worse when people decide
      > to consciously brainwash
      > themselves into believing
      > what makes them feel good
      > about life whether it's true
      > or not. This is why religion
      > works so well. If ECKists had
      > half a brain and really thought
      > it through the claims that
      > are made don't make sense.
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      Diana Stanley wrote:
      >
      > I have decided there
      > is no spiritual path.
      > If you are sitting in
      > your living room you
      > don't need a path to
      > find it! I feel it is a
      > matter of becoming
      > aware of who or what
      > you are.
      > Diana



    • etznab@aol.com
      A long time ago I remember people were encouraged to speak to others in their own language & NOT to use a whole bunch of Eckankar terms. ... From:
      Message 2 of 4 , Dec 6, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        A long time ago I remember people were encouraged to speak to others in
        "their own language" & NOT to use a whole bunch of Eckankar terms.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
        To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
        <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 1:54 pm
        Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Karma and Consciousness

         
        Hello Diana and All,
        Thanks for sharing your
        thoughts and for getting
        me to rethink some positions.

        IMO-It's really hard to
        say what is what, especially,
        after the Eckankar experience
        and the uncovering of
        more and more religious
        lies. It's difficult to express
        one's beliefs without using
        some/much of that what
        we have learned during
        the years of our religious
        training/brain-washing...
        including the pre-Eckankar
        years.

        Plus, sometimes semantics
        tend to get in the way
        by confusing the issue.

        It is good, however, when
        we are able to use our own
        words and our own unique
        consciousness to express
        ourselves. Eckankar didn't
        allow this, therefore, every
        Vahana (missionary) needed
        to be trained to talk and
        respond in an "approved"
        manner and sound like an
        EK brochure. Even ECK
        Clerics need to have RESA/
        ESC "approved" topics for
        ECK Worship Services (EWS).
        It seems that there is little
        trust that H.I.s (who are
        supposedly higher in
        consciousness to the 4th
        Plane "God" other religions
        worship) actually have the
        inner communication with
        their "Mahanta," or a higher
        awareness to know how
        or which topic to present
        at an EWS. Eckankar has
        too many outer controls
        (Guidelines) for a rational
        person to buy into the
        premise that there is valid
        "inner" and "higher" plane
        communication between
        Klemp and his H.I.s.

        EK Higher Initiations,
        supposedly, represent
        a Higher Consciousness
        and greater "Inner"
        communication/
        awareness with the Will
        of the Mahanta/Klemp?
        So, why does Klemp have
        all of the controls on
        speech via the guidelines
        if this was true? Why have
        "outer" physical plane
        seminars for H.I.s?

        Most ECKists don't know
        about the extent of the
        EK "Guidelines" but these
        even show How the ECK
        Centers are to be decorated
        and which books are to
        be displayed, and how,
        and which ones are no
        longer in vogue. I'm not
        clear on this... do Eckists
        believe they have "spiritual
        freedom," now, or will they
        have it later (in the next life)
        after achieving a "Master's"
        consciousness?

        An EK leader needs to give
        the impression that they are
        "plugged-in" to the will of
        the Mahanta (the "God" they
        pray to, contemplate upon,
        dream of, and beseech with
        requests... parking spaces
        included... really!).

        Yes, I agree that consciousness
        is always in flux, as is matter.

        I guess that consciousness will
        incarnate, but does that mean
        that people (or Souls) do as well?
        I'm not so sure about that or
        how and why that works. Maybe
        it's truer that it's consciousness
        that incarnates while people
        merely live and die but are the
        vehicles of/for consciousness.

        Is "Soul" a part of this consciousness
        or is this just a religious term
        used to explain away or place
        a spin on cosmology and to
        alleviate our fear of death?

        So, what is this consciousness
        and does it have many degrees,
        shapes, meanings, and take
        many forms? I guess we could
        use many terms and words
        to call or rename it (IT?) as we
        please and this is how religions
        are built. Of course with religion
        one group of people always
        has the inside truth over all
        others and has the might to
        be more right and to influence
        and intimidate other groups
        of believers. That's what dogma,
        jargon, and hierarchies are
        all about.

        Perhaps "personality" is this
        consciousness when it takes
        or enters an intelligent form?
        I wonder how much intelligence
        is required for consciousness
        to instill a personality?

        Of course we have the term
        Group Consciousness too.
        Maybe this is more a Group
        Personality than it is consciousness
        or maybe it's just a lower form
        of consciousness?

        IMO Group Consciousness
        (mostly religions and political
        parties) are always at a lower
        level than individuals within
        the group. This is why Eckankar
        only works for those whose
        consciousness has become
        stagnated.

        Prometheus

        Diana Stanley wrote:
        I don't believe in Karma.

        I believe counciousness
        is always taking form.

        When a form is no longer
        able to function or die
        counciousness simply
        returns to itself. The
        aspect of it takes on a
        new form.

        So in away counciousness
        continues to incarnate but
        what we know as the personality
        is for the present life.

        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello Diana and All,
        > Way back before Twitchell
        > became a religious scammer
        > he shared some opinions
        > that, I believe, were insightful.
        > It was when he talked about
        > being the Cliff Hanger and
        > about being your own religion.
        > IMO-This is the true "spiritual"
        > path.
        >
        > Everything is individualized
        > but has a group appeal, like
        > with religion, including one's
        > taste buds! Sometimes it's
        > based upon culture. Even those
        > who get along as best friends
        > don't like the same foods. And,
        > one might like coffee while the
        > other prefers tea. It gets more
        > detailed and individualized even
        > for fellow coffee and tea drinkers.
        >
        > One person might prefer red
        > wine to white or beer to wine
        > or doesn't drink alcohol at all
        > or might make exceptions for
        > special occasions. These choices,
        > too, can become complex. Yet,
        > these same Twin Souls or Soul
        > Mates will share a similar philosophy
        > of life... or so it appears on
        > the surface. After all, religions
        > are based upon the ruling
        > group's opinions. And, unseen/
        > unknown and invisible masters
        > (saints and angels too) prophetic
        > opinions are always the same
        > as the ruling hierarchy... why
        > is that?
        >
        > I believe that we all travel
        > a unique path which is
        > comprised of fate and
        > choice driven cycles. But
        > alterations to this path/
        > journey, created by choices,
        > will influence future choices
        > and even fate. The journey
        > can change.
        >
        > I'm not so sure that karma
        > is a truism. It helps to explain
        > away a lot of bad things and
        > gives people hope. Plus, bad
        > people will be punished in
        > the next lifetime. Or, are they,
        > now, being punished in this
        > lifetime?
        >
        > Therefore, why help a person
        > who, obviously, made bad choices
        > in a previous lifetime? Or, if
        > you think you have some
        > unresolved karma with someone
        > why not go for it, now, instead
        > of remaining true to one's
        > mate since that "karma" has,
        > obviously, been resolved?
        > This is how many ECKists
        > tend to rationalize and why
        > they will jump from relationship
        > to relationship!
        >
        > All in all, it seems that
        > most people make choices
        > according to what they
        > think they really believe
        > or what they think they
        > should, need, and want
        > to believe. One can go
        > through the motions
        > and fake it for others
        > and even for oneself,
        > to a certain extent, for
        > years and years.
        >
        > However, most people
        > don't want to admit that
        > their opinions are influenced
        > more by others, some they
        > don't even know or would
        > have much in common with,
        > than they think. Not many
        > can block out the effects of
        > advertising and subliminal
        > messages because people
        > want to belong to or identify
        > with some group. It's even
        > worse when people decide
        > to consciously brainwash
        > themselves into believing
        > what makes them feel good
        > about life whether it's true
        > or not. This is why religion
        > works so well. If ECKists had
        > half a brain and really thought
        > it through the claims that
        > are made don't make sense.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        Diana Stanley wrote:
        >
        > I have decided there
        > is no spiritual path.
        > If you are sitting in
        > your living room you
        > don't need a path to
        > find it! I feel it is a
        > matter of becoming
        > aware of who or what
        > you are.
        > Diana
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Etznab, I think that you ve been confused and tricked by Klemp. Klemp told us to use common language when communicating or selling Eckankar. It is done
        Message 3 of 4 , Dec 7, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello Etznab,
          I think that you've
          been confused and
          tricked by Klemp.

          Klemp told us to use
          "common language"
          when communicating
          or selling Eckankar.
          It is done to fool the
          public into thinking
          that Eckists were talking
          the same language
          as them and using
          the same definitions.

          This is why "God" is
          used versus Sugmad,
          although, "God" is
          merely a 2nd or 4th
          Plane entity and is
          actually known as
          the Kal, the Devil or
          Satan.

          And, Klemp always
          contradicts his own
          instructions. Is HU,
          Mahanta or ECK
          common words and,
          thus, common language?
          Of course not!

          Prometheus


          etznab wrote:
          A long time ago
          I remember people
          were encouraged
          to speak to others
          in "their own language"
          & NOT to use a whole
          bunch of Eckankar
          terms.


          prometheus wrote:
          Hello Diana and All,
          Thanks for sharing your
          thoughts and for getting
          me to rethink some positions.

          IMO-It's really hard to
          say what is what, especially,
          after the Eckankar experience
          and the uncovering of
          more and more religious
          lies. It's difficult to express
          one's beliefs without using
          some/much of that what
          we have learned during
          the years of our religious
          training/brain-washing...
          including the pre-Eckankar
          years.

          Plus, sometimes semantics
          tend to get in the way
          by confusing the issue.

          It is good, however, when
          we are able to use our own
          words and our own unique
          consciousness to express
          ourselves. Eckankar didn't
          allow this, therefore, every
          Vahana (missionary) needed
          to be trained to talk and
          respond in an "approved"
          manner and sound like an
          EK brochure. Even ECK
          Clerics need to have RESA/
          ESC "approved" topics for
          ECK Worship Services (EWS).
          It seems that there is little
          trust that H.I.s (who are
          supposedly higher in
          consciousness to the 4th
          Plane "God" other religions
          worship) actually have the
          inner communication with
          their "Mahanta," or a higher
          awareness to know how
          or which topic to present
          at an EWS. Eckankar has
          too many outer controls
          (Guidelines) for a rational
          person to buy into the
          premise that there is valid
          "inner" and "higher" plane
          communication between
          Klemp and his H.I.s.

          EK Higher Initiations,
          supposedly, represent
          a Higher Consciousness
          and greater "Inner"
          communication/
          awareness with the Will
          of the Mahanta/Klemp?
          So, why does Klemp have
          all of the controls on
          speech via the guidelines
          if this was true? Why have
          "outer" physical plane
          seminars for H.I.s?

          Most ECKists don't know
          about the extent of the
          EK "Guidelines" but these
          even show How the ECK
          Centers are to be decorated
          and which books are to
          be displayed, and how,
          and which ones are no
          longer in vogue. I'm not
          clear on this... do Eckists
          believe they have "spiritual
          freedom," now, or will they
          have it later (in the next life)
          after achieving a "Master's"
          consciousness?

          An EK leader needs to give
          the impression that they are
          "plugged-in" to the will of
          the Mahanta (the "God" they
          pray to, contemplate upon,
          dream of, and beseech with
          requests... parking spaces
          included... really!).

          Yes, I agree that consciousness
          is always in flux, as is matter.

          I guess that consciousness will
          incarnate, but does that mean
          that people (or Souls) do as well?
          I'm not so sure about that or
          how and why that works. Maybe
          it's truer that it's consciousness
          that incarnates while people
          merely live and die but are the
          vehicles of/for consciousness.

          Is "Soul" a part of this consciousness
          or is this just a religious term
          used to explain away or place
          a spin on cosmology and to
          alleviate our fear of death?

          So, what is this consciousness
          and does it have many degrees,
          shapes, meanings, and take
          many forms? I guess we could
          use many terms and words
          to call or rename it (IT?) as we
          please and this is how religions
          are built. Of course with religion
          one group of people always
          has the inside truth over all
          others and has the might to
          be more right and to influence
          and intimidate other groups
          of believers. That's what dogma,
          jargon, and hierarchies are
          all about.

          Perhaps "personality" is this
          consciousness when it takes
          or enters an intelligent form?
          I wonder how much intelligence
          is required for consciousness
          to instill a personality?

          Of course we have the term
          Group Consciousness too.
          Maybe this is more a Group
          Personality than it is consciousness
          or maybe it's just a lower form
          of consciousness?

          IMO Group Consciousness
          (mostly religions and political
          parties) are always at a lower
          level than individuals within
          the group. This is why Eckankar
          only works for those whose
          consciousness has become
          stagnated.

          Prometheus

          Diana Stanley wrote:
          I don't believe in Karma.

          I believe counciousness
          is always taking form.

          When a form is no longer
          able to function or die
          counciousness simply
          returns to itself. The
          aspect of it takes on a
          new form.

          So in away counciousness
          continues to incarnate but
          what we know as the personality
          is for the present life.

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Hello Diana and All,
          > Way back before Twitchell
          > became a religious scammer
          > he shared some opinions
          > that, I believe, were insightful.
          > It was when he talked about
          > being the Cliff Hanger and
          > about being your own religion.
          > IMO-This is the true "spiritual"
          > path.
          >
          > Everything is individualized
          > but has a group appeal, like
          > with religion, including one's
          > taste buds! Sometimes it's
          > based upon culture. Even those
          > who get along as best friends
          > don't like the same foods. And,
          > one might like coffee while the
          > other prefers tea. It gets more
          > detailed and individualized even
          > for fellow coffee and tea drinkers.
          >
          > One person might prefer red
          > wine to white or beer to wine
          > or doesn't drink alcohol at all
          > or might make exceptions for
          > special occasions. These choices,
          > too, can become complex. Yet,
          > these same Twin Souls or Soul
          > Mates will share a similar philosophy
          > of life... or so it appears on
          > the surface. After all, religions
          > are based upon the ruling
          > group's opinions. And, unseen/
          > unknown and invisible masters
          > (saints and angels too) prophetic
          > opinions are always the same
          > as the ruling hierarchy... why
          > is that?
          >
          > I believe that we all travel
          > a unique path which is
          > comprised of fate and
          > choice driven cycles. But
          > alterations to this path/
          > journey, created by choices,
          > will influence future choices
          > and even fate. The journey
          > can change.
          >
          > I'm not so sure that karma
          > is a truism. It helps to explain
          > away a lot of bad things and
          > gives people hope. Plus, bad
          > people will be punished in
          > the next lifetime. Or, are they,
          > now, being punished in this
          > lifetime?
          >
          > Therefore, why help a person
          > who, obviously, made bad choices
          > in a previous lifetime? Or, if
          > you think you have some
          > unresolved karma with someone
          > why not go for it, now, instead
          > of remaining true to one's
          > mate since that "karma" has,
          > obviously, been resolved?
          > This is how many ECKists
          > tend to rationalize and why
          > they will jump from relationship
          > to relationship!
          >
          > All in all, it seems that
          > most people make choices
          > according to what they
          > think they really believe
          > or what they think they
          > should, need, and want
          > to believe. One can go
          > through the motions
          > and fake it for others
          > and even for oneself,
          > to a certain extent, for
          > years and years.
          >
          > However, most people
          > don't want to admit that
          > their opinions are influenced
          > more by others, some they
          > don't even know or would
          > have much in common with,
          > than they think. Not many
          > can block out the effects of
          > advertising and subliminal
          > messages because people
          > want to belong to or identify
          > with some group. It's even
          > worse when people decide
          > to consciously brainwash
          > themselves into believing
          > what makes them feel good
          > about life whether it's true
          > or not. This is why religion
          > works so well. If ECKists had
          > half a brain and really thought
          > it through the claims that
          > are made don't make sense.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          Diana Stanley wrote:
          >
          > I have decided there
          > is no spiritual path.
          > If you are sitting in
          > your living room you
          > don't need a path to
          > find it! I feel it is a
          > matter of becoming
          > aware of who or what
          > you are.
          > Diana
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