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Re: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Doesn't ECKankar Have More and Higher H.I.s?

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  • Austin Atma
    Prometheus - I don t believe it is an either/or situation.  True Believers in any organization or political system will awaken from the state of group think
    Message 1 of 38 , Dec 5, 2011
      Prometheus - I don't believe it is an either/or situation.  True Believers in any organization or political system will awaken from the state of group think for a lot of different reasons to numerous to go into.  We all communicate in the way that we feel works for us and while I have no need to disagree with using the delusional language of a cult to help cult members see past the delusional language of a cult, I also feel as though it helps to model language that is not about the cult but which addresses and describes some of the states of mind from a different perspective.  That is how I started my post... "From one perspective..."
      Any group starts to feed on itself over time. Even the "watchers" ;-).  
      This is why "innoculation" is so important.   No that word isn't in the Eck Dictionary ;-), and to limit cult members to their own sad language is something I simply can't do, but it isn't to bug you or any of the other longtime posters in this yahoo group.  I'm sure you and others can handle a little different approach.  Anyway, innoculation being the introduction of some fundamental principles and experiences around self-confidence, freedom, and autonomy of body, mind, and spirit.  Some basic simple ways of testing onceself and the legions of people that would try to make our minds up for us.  Fail the freedom of thought test and "gong" "hook" "gang plank" the source is recognized as a potentially controlling source and "tagged" for caution.  
      Helping our children, and our children's children to question everything including us is fundamental.  And this is from the father of a teenager! 
      We're all ripe for brainwashing and coercion in the directions we are already predisposed to go.  The pablam and opiated dreams of sweet surrender into the guru's answers is very enticing.  F**k of a lot easier than thinking for ourselves and rejecting idiotic claims and procamations from any source.  Yep, that's an old eck word, f88K ;-).  Thank god for George Carlin and Lenny Bruce. 
      Go for it with the delusive eck language to reach the slightly sleepy cult members, I understand.  Not rocket science.  Just understand that sometimes reading something in clear (fractured in my case) non-culty language might be of interest as well. 
      If there is an eckankar true believer reading this and you feel I should be speaking in your special insider language so you can understand me please let me know, otherwise Prometheus will cover that base... or just flip on your universal translator. 

      From: prometheus_973 <prometheus_973@...>
      To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, December 5, 2011 2:38 PM
      Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Doesn't ECKankar Have More and Higher H.I.s?

      Hello Austin,
      I disagree with the
      premise that using
      EK speak reenforces
      their delusion. It's
      merely being used
      as a communication

      After all, that's why
      outsiders aren't taken
      seriously when they
      address the same or
      similar issues involving
      a specific cult.

      Only insiders know
      what they're talking
      about (to varying
      degrees) and have
      credibility according
      to their involvement
      (initiation) and placement
      (position) within the
      hierarchy. This is why
      Ford Johnson's book
      shook things up as
      it did. Using ECK
      speak denotes an
      intimate understanding
      of the dogma, Guidelines,
      and the workings of
      the EK Hierarchy.

      prometheus wrote:
      "Also, this site (ESA)
      is being used to reach
      out to those Eckists
      who look in, every
      now and then, in order
      to address issues
      that they've decided
      to hide from, often,
      out of convenience."

      Let me address the specifics:

      Austin wrote:

      ***From one perspective
      these questions reinforce
      the fundamentally delusional

      ME: These questions point
      out the flaws of the EK teachings
      and the doubts that are never
      addressed on the "outer" due
      to the suggested and learned
      threat of ostracism.

      Analysis of the card stock
      used to build the house
      of cards.

      Life provides initiatory
      experiences and our
      "spiritual" vision is
      deepened and broadened
      as we learn to implement
      what we learn.

      The self-created drama
      of initiation and status
      bestowed is a distractive
      system of control and

      The master mirage we
      imbued with our own
      capacity to love and
      connect lives on long
      after membership has
      been severed.

      ***The use of the eckankar
      priestcraft language
      reinforces the illusions
      and the symbiotic memes
      that are still active in
      many of us.

      ME: This "priestcraft" language
      is used so that H.I.s will
      know and understand
      where I've been and where
      I'm coming from. And, it's
      used to inform and give
      some insight and clarity
      of the workings of the org
      to lower initiates (chelas)
      as well. After shining a
      light upon the distortions
      these illusions are destroyed
      and, therefore, are not

      We were told that Eckankar
      was not the "only" path to
      God but was the most "direct"
      path to God. What I've pointed
      out shows how this premise
      became the belief (lie) that
      the other lies were built upon.


      prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      > > Hello All,
      > > It occurred to me
      > > to ask something...
      > > some ECK trivia.
      > >
      > > Is Klemp, as the
      > > Physical (or lower)
      > > Plane Living ECK
      > > Master (LEM), a 12th
      > > Initiate or is he a
      > > 14th Initiate? Is the
      > > LEM (outer) position
      > > limited to being a
      > > 12th?
      > >
      > > Now, I know that
      > > as the Inner Plane
      > > "Mahanta" HK's
      > > supposed to be
      > > a 14th, but is that,
      > > also, true as/for
      > > the LEM? Or, is HK,
      > > also, a 14th Plane
      > > LEM?
      > >
      > > You see, there's that
      > > "coarse vibration" thing
      > > going on.... right?
      > >
      > > Isn't this why more
      > > H.I.s can't be too
      > > refined or advanced
      > > in order to protect
      > > themselves (Soul)
      > > from such coarseness,
      > > here, on the Physical
      > > Plane?
      > >
      > > Is this why most imagine
      > > themselves to be "higher"
      > > on the "inner planes?"
      > > But, it's okay for Klemp
      > > to be able to handle the
      > > coarse vibes, except, for
      > > EMF! If Klemp can't handle
      > > it then maybe he's not
      > > as "high" as he claims...
      > > maybe HK fell from Sugmad's
      > > Grace (like Darwin) and
      > > is hiding this fact. ECKists
      > > had good dreams with
      > > Darwin showing up with
      > > a Blue Light or Blue Star
      > > during the time he, supposedly,
      > > fell... according to Klemp
      > > who, btw, received, more
      > > than a half dozen Higher
      > > Initiations from Darwin.
      > >
      > > Really, though, since
      > > ECKankar is such an
      > > advanced "spiritual
      > > path" why aren't there
      > > a dozen or so 12th
      > > Initiates along with
      > > 11ths, 10ths, and
      > > many more 9ths and
      > > 8ths?
      > >
      > > See, this part doesn't
      > > make sense, or does it?
      > >
      > > What's Klemp afraid of
      > > or is he just petty and
      > > selfish and wants to
      > > remain B.M.O.C.?
      > >
      > > Maybe HK's afraid
      > > of competition. If he
      > > promoted H.I.'s to these
      > > higher initiations, like
      > > the 12th, maybe they'd
      > > leave and start their own
      > > EK Sect. But, wait! They've
      > > already done this and
      > > one was even a 2nd Initiate!
      > >
      > > Prometheus
      > >
      > > prometheus wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello All,
      > > I was thinking back
      > > about being passed
      > > over for a higher
      > > initiation way way
      > > back in the late 80s
      > > and at the time it
      > > really pissed me off.
      > > I almost quit then
      > > and there and wish
      > > I would have. I had
      > > ruffled a few feathers
      > > and the timing was
      > > bad. The initiation
      > > list from the ESC had
      > > just been received by
      > > the RESAs and their
      > > pettiness, suspicion,
      > > and judgmental attitudes
      > > were having an effect
      > > upon, mostly, innocent
      > > victims of Klemp's RESA
      > > hierarchy.
      > >
      > > Why is Klemp and his
      > > RESAs so stingy with
      > > Higher Initiations?
      > >
      > > Anyway, I had to wait
      > > awhile but did finally
      > > get the pink slip. It
      > > wasn't a big deal after
      > > all, but we all made it
      > > seem so didn't we!
      > >
      > > Then again, look at
      > > all of those leadership
      > > classes, intros, Satsang
      > > classes, etc., etc. and
      > > the time and money we
      > > donated. We earned it
      > > all but were never "paid"
      > > as promised. ECK Initiations
      > > are, supposedly, tied
      > > directly to consciousness
      > > so why does consciousness
      > > (for most) end at the
      > > 7th Initiation?
      > >
      > > BTW-Hundreds of 7th
      > > Initiates have been stuck
      > > on an "older" past level
      > > of consciousness which
      > > is lower than what many
      > > 1st Initiates are at today.
      > >
      > > [Klemp stated, about ten
      > > years ago, that most of
      > > those (newbies) coming
      > > into Eckankar, today, have
      > > a higher state of consciousness
      > > over that of many H.I.s]
      > >
      > > The only noticeable lower
      > > and outer plane differences
      > > is that newbies (1st Initiates)
      > > are less indoctrinated with/by
      > > dogma, ESC Guidelines, and
      > > are less experienced with
      > > putting on a good show and
      > > with defensive double talk.
      > > Plus, they feel less fearful
      > > and less threatened for saying
      > > the "wrong" thing or of being
      > > too honest and truthful. Of
      > > course they're less brainwashed,
      > > as well, maybe that's another
      > > reason why Klemp thinks
      > > they're more pure of consciousness.
      > > Eckankar's crap hasn't gummed
      > > up the gears just yet and they
      > > come across as more "real."
      > >
      > > Yes, it has to be frustrating
      > > and insulting for longtime
      > > H.I.s to see Klemp's 30th
      > > anniversary coming up for
      > > 2012. Will this be his last
      > > year? ECKists can only hope!
      > > Will HK give Joan a 12th
      > > before leaving office? She
      > > can only hope! But would a
      > > change in leadership produce
      > > more and higher initiations?
      > > What if it does? They're meaningless
      > > anyway!
      > >
      > > Prometheus
      > >
      > >

    • prometheus_973
      Hello Diana, You ve got my curiosity. Please tell me/us more! Prometheus Diana Stanley wrote: I met a perfect soul. He did not want followers and did not have
      Message 38 of 38 , Jan 12, 2012
        Hello Diana,
        You've got my curiosity.
        Please tell me/us more!


        Diana Stanley wrote:
        I met a perfect soul.

        He did not want
        followers and did
        not have a spiritual

        You could listen to
        his words and apply
        them to your spiritual

        He only would let
        people attend his
        talk for two weeks,
        no charge.

        He said everyone has
        a guru inside. You are
        already connected to
        the highest.

        He gave no initiations
        or put anyone higher
        than another.

        He introdced me to
        a way of spiritual
        thinking that I apply
        every day.


        prometheus wrote:
        > Hello All,
        > Well, it seems that this
        > needs a response merely
        > to correct some of the
        > inaccurate info on Darwin
        > if nothing else.
        > Re: Why Doesn't ECKankar Have More and Higher H.I.s?
        > ----- Forwarded Message -----
        > From: shabdamoksha <shabdamoksha@...>
        > To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, January 6, 2012 8:09 PM
        > Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Why Doesn't ECKankar Have More and
        Higher H.I.s?
        > Dear Eckankar Survivors Anonymous,
        > Responding to your recent post titled: "Why doesn't Eckankar have more and
        Higher HI's?" I emailed Prometheus a response but I will repeat it here. I am an
        Ex-Eckist who was a former member of Eckankar for over 17 years. During that
        time I had several leadership positions such as a state wide service leader.
        > ME: This leadership position
        > must have been a very long
        > time ago. I recall State and
        > Local Rep positions. Actually
        > I forget all the titles. It's like
        > trying to remember the various
        > words describing ECKankar...
        > A Way of Life, The Path of
        > Total Awareness, etc., etc.
        > The reason that Eckankar cannot give higher initiation levels is because
        Eckankar can only bring individuals up to the mental plane. Cosmic consciousness
        is the highest level that Eckankar can bring individuals. That is true now but
        it wasn't true during Paul Twichell's time. After Paul Twitchell translated it
        became a cosmic consciousness path. There are several reasons for this. A reason
        why there are also no Masters in Eckankar is because currentlly Eckankar creates
        followers and not spiritual masters. As I explained it brings people to cosmic
        > ME: No! ECKankar (Klemp) can
        > and does sell higher initiation
        > levels... just not that many 8ths
        > or 9ths. And they're as invalid
        > as any other religious initiation
        > being handed out and sold via
        > membership requirements (fees/
        > donations). Consciousness has
        > to be recognized and achieved
        > by the individual and not handed
        > out by others. Paul Twitchell was
        > no "master" he was a conman,
        > liar, wannabe and plagiarist.
        > Cosmic Consciousness is merely
        > a term used by New Age Westernized
        > religious sects to describe the
        > benefits of their brand of religion.
        > The first reason is that in 1971 when Paul Twitcell translated he never
        declared a successor. He only left a list of six names. The Eckankar leadership
        which included Gail Twitchell, Patty Simpson and others chose Darwin Gross who
        was not a Master but only a ninth initiate. Instead when Paul died he gave
        Rebazar the rod of power and brought the true path of Eckankar non-public and at
        that moment the outer Eckankar became an offshoot. It was at that moment that
        Eckankar was no longer the highest path to God even though it claimed to be.
        > ME: Darwin was dating Gail behind
        > Paul's back. DG had only been
        > an EK member since around 1968
        > and was a third initiate at the time
        > of Paul's death. Gail claimed to
        > have had a dream where Paul told
        > her that Darwin was to be the LEM.
        > Gail was running the show and
        > had the Board's support. Darwin
        > was made a 5th initiate by the EK
        > Board in order to receive the Rod
        > of ECK Power on Oct 22, 1971...
        > 35 days after Paul's death.
        > The Rebazar fill-in story was
        > one that was dreamed up by
        > Klemp. After all, there was no
        > need for a fill-in Mahanta since
        > the Mahanta was still Paul and
        > the story is that there has always
        > been a Mahanta whether in a
        > physical body or not... not every
        > LEM is a Mahanta. A picture was
        > done showing Paul giving the
        > Rod to Darwin.
        > Klemp altered this story to fit
        > the dogma requiring a LEM to
        > pass the Rod. And, HK inferred
        > that Darwin was a 13th initiate
        > and was merely a Mahanta "in
        > training" and not a "full" Mahanta
        > like himself. Thus, the Blue
        > Carnations given to Darwin
        > when he went on stage only
        > indicated that DG was a
        > Mahanta-in-Training.
        > Only the LEM needs a physical
        > body. The ECK dogma requires
        > the LEM to pass the Rod (position)
        > to the next LEM. Thus, the ageless,
        > imaginary Rebazar who Paul
        > dreamed up to initiate him is
        > the natural choice for fill-in.
        > Rebazar Tarzs, supposedly,
        > has his same 500 year old
        > physical body and took the
        > place of the Living ECK Master
        > (Paul) for 35 days in order to
        > pass the Rod of ECK Power
        > to a fake Master (Darwin) who,
        > later, passed it to Klemp! This
        > way Klemp can die while in
        > office and RT, via Joan's dream,
        > can pass the Rod to her choice.
        > Of course, Rebazar didn't really
        > fill-in as LEM for 35 days because
        > he was nowhere in sight! He
        > didn't attend any "physical"
        > meetings or take any calls
        > or make himself available as
        > Klemp would have ECKists
        > imagine. It didn't happen!
        > Can't these longtime ECKists
        > remember? No memos or
        > articles either! Besides, did
        > RT really have to fill-in for
        > 35 days as LEM as Klemp
        > claims? RT, actually, only
        > needed to fill-in for 35 seconds
        > in order to Pass the Rod.
        > Paul Twitchell made a guarantee that initiates can usually reach God
        Realization in 25 years and he guaranteed an initiate can reach God Realization
        in this life time or the next.
        > My friend said: If that guarantee is true than all Eckists would reach it in
        the (next) life. Paul brought initiates up through initiations quickly. The
        reason modern Eckankar has what is called "The Glass Ceiling in Eckankar" is for
        two reasons.
        > The first reason is it would disturb the status quo.
        > The second reason is that Harold although a good person he is only a sharadda,
        a sixth initiate.
        > I do not care to talk negatively about people for when I was in Eckankar he
        helped to bring me many inner experiences, love, and some karmic help. However
        even though a shradda is not a spiritual Master, a sixth initiate is still a
        powerful spiritual being.
        > ME: Wait a minute! God Realization,
        > as well as, Self Mastery and Spiritual
        > Freedom was guaranteed for "this"
        > lifetime as long as one reached the
        > 5th. There was no "next" lifetime
        > after reaching the 2nd initiation!
        > BTW- Klemp is a liar, deceiver and
        > an arrogant wannabe. He sought
        > those phony book awards by fellow
        > publishing companies and paid to be
        > listed in Who's Who. HK's not a 6th
        > either. Twit created a bunch of
        > initiation levels as carrots to be
        > dangled in order to appease egos,
        > thus, they're all phony and Twitchell,
        > their creator, was the phoniest!
        > No one has power over you unless
        > you give them power... remember
        > that? You helped yourself by thinking
        > it was someone else. You could
        > have placed your attention and
        > faith in other areas or with non-living
        > "masters" and had the same outcome
        > and benefits. What they (the religious
        > conmen) don't want you to know
        > is that as Soul... YOU are your
        > own teacher and master.
        > Sure, you can take tid-bits and
        > insights from others but don't
        > rely upon them...that's the trap!
        > Take responsibility and invent
        > your own personal relationship
        > and religion with YOU and Spirit.
        > Besides, what has Klemp said
        > that Paul didn't already say via
        > his plagiarism of Sant Mat...
        > which was another phony religion.
        > While a former member of Eckankar, my partner had an extremely high level of
        success in spiritual exercises on the inner planes mostly in the lower worlds.
        (They were not his imagination) But after 29 years of successful practice he was
        still only a 4th initiate. He hit the "Glass Ceiling in Eckankar" and could go
        no higher. He felt trapped in the lower worlds and blamed himself. Physically he
        was practically dyeing from lack of adequate outflow in spite of his loving
        efforts. He was having lots of inner experiences with Paul Twitchell, Rebazar,
        and other Masters. I also had many inner experiences but felt held back.
        > ME: I had some very phenomenal
        > experiences prior to Eckankar, while
        > in TM, and these weren't imagined
        > either. BTW- This 4th hadn't hit the
        > "Glass Ceiling in Eckankar." Maybe
        > for the outer effort he wanted to
        > put into it he had. The "outflow"
        > supposedly comes from volunteering
        > for intros, as a Satsang Arahata,
        > and for local leadership positions,
        > etc. There had to be something
        > "wrong" with a person who has 29
        > years in and is still a 4th. Did he
        > fall asleep during meetings, classes,
        > and at the EWS and say he was
        > getting it all on the "inner?" That's
        > frowned upon by RESAs and is
        > probably why he wasn't promoted
        > if that was the case. I knew of a
        > guy who was a 4th with the same
        > amount of time as a 4th and this
        > was his problem. Maybe it was
        > the same guy. I think he finally
        > got promoted to the 5th when
        > a friend of his became the RESA.
        > Shortly after this we called out to God for God Realization. Our call was
        answered and we both had profound light and sound God Worlds experiences with
        the true successor of Paul Twitchel. We had profound experiences of being
        brought up to higher states of consciousness much more quickly than Eckankar.
        Eckankar is currently only an offshoot and no longer the highest path to God.
        > ME: And who was the "true successor"
        > of Paul.... Bernie Madeoff (sic?)? Gail?
        > Oops! It couldn't be Gail since it has to
        > be a guy right? That old negative atom
        > polarity thingie right? So, Eckankar is
        > an offshoot of an offshoot of an offshoot.
        > What does that make this other "highest
        > path?" Sikhism had the Radasoami offshoot.
        > Ruhani Satsang was the offshoot of this
        > that Twitchell joined under Kirpal Singh
        > and then he created his own offshoot
        > Eckankar. So, do you follow the offshoot
        > created by Twitchell? True, Klemp created
        > his own offshoot of the original Eckankar
        > created by Twitchell.
        > No person is perfect and it is pointless to dwell on the many human flaws of
        individuals. It is a common misconception that Spiritual Masters are made of
        plastic, perfect beings incapable of human mistakes and human emotions. Yes, as
        many say Paul made human mistakes, because masters are not perfect as many
        falsely assume. Masters have emotions and make human errors. The mythology that
        masters are perfect is a myth that keeps people believing that Mastership is an
        impossible goal of some far distant future, never to be had by any humble
        person. But Paul was a true Master even though he made some mistakes. People can
        dwell on such superficiality of his tiny mistakes until the cows jump over the
        moon but they will never learn the truth because they don't want God.
        > ME: Is Rebazar Tarzs perfect?
        > What mistakes has he made?
        > You see, Rebazar is perfect
        > because Rebazar is imaginary!
        > Rebazar's existence is myth!
        > When I shared with a few close friends in Eckankar about my God Realization
        experience they were so focused on their initiation, status, dogma, personality
        worship, habit pattern thought that they didn't hear a word of it or care to
        know anything about it. They built a 12 foot high wall of fear and were quick to
        judge me. Another friend did care and his life changed overnight.
        > I feel too many people prefer spiritual fluff, distractions, status, dogma, or
        the safety of closed off beliefs to embracing God. All I wanted was God. And I
        prayed to God for three days to be shown who is the true Mahanta who could bring
        me to God and my call was answered. What is the point of being in Eckankar if
        not to connect with God, and reach self and God Realization in this life and not
        a million years from now.
        > It is like Paul Twichell once said: Only the bold and adventurous find God.
        > Many people don't want a true connection with God, Self Realization, or God
        Realization because they are afraid to become the spiritual giant that they
        already are. I am a spiritual master now and it doesn't concern me if no one
        believes me or knows. But I am concerned if people who want to truly connect
        with God or God Realization don't because they are being misled by people who
        don't love them truly.
        > May the blessings be, Shabdamoksha [end]
        > ME: God Realization experiences
        > are subjective. It was probably
        > a Cosmic Consciousness experience.
        > Just kidding. However, a rose
        > is still a rose by any other name.
        > I try not to get caught up in
        > classifying, pigeon holing, and
        > judging my own private, personal,
        > unique spiritual experiences.
        > What do I know? True, people
        > do go for the religious bullshit.
        > New Agers are just as much the
        > suckers and fools (not for God)
        > as the hugely populated religions.
        > BTW- Twit also stated (long ago)
        > in the Square Peg article that he
        > was a Cliffhanger and that the
        > Cliffhanger is his own religion!
        > There's a point in everyone's
        > life when they has learned enough
        > that they no longer need to be
        > a joiner. Soul doesn't need mental
        > plane dogma and a physical plane
        > religion or a master. IT is the Master
        > and always has a relationship with
        > Spirit...
        > Prometheus
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