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Klemp Has Over-stayed His Rein

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  • prometheus_973
    Hello Etznab and All, Yes it s true! For 25 years Klemp has required ECK Lifetime Memberships to be renewed every year... at no monetary cost. Of course,
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 28 10:11 PM
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      Hello Etznab and All,
      Yes it's true! For 25 years Klemp
      has required ECK Lifetime Memberships
      to be renewed every year... at no
      monetary cost. Of course, there's
      a lot more pressure to make donations.
      Plus, these donation amounts and
      other statistics, as well as, RESA memos/
      reports are added to each EK Leaders'
      membership file.

      There were two occasions when EK
      Lifetime Memberships were sold. The
      first time it cost $500 and the second
      time, around 1983, it was $1,000.
      I remember the second time better
      than the first because this was just
      before Darwin was booted.

      Klemp has stated, if Lifetime Membership's
      aren't renewed they will be lost and
      a regular paid membership must be
      obtained in order to keep one's initiations.
      So much for those "Higher" God Worlds
      of ECK (INNER) Initiations! LOL! Down
      the drain, it seems, due to lack of money
      or untimely renewal.

      HK: When you snooze you lose! There
      is no free lunch! Klemp claims that Jesus
      was a 2nd initiate, but was compassionate
      enough to give out a Free Lunch to those
      on the Mount where he gave his most
      famous sermon. See the difference between
      14th initiate Klemp and, supposedly, 2nd
      initiate Jesus! Klemp is a such a fraud!

      Non-renewal and going beyond the five
      year rest periods are a mixed bag as far
      as keeping the same initiation. It depends
      upon the RESA and the rapport you have
      with them... but that goes for getting
      promoted too!

      It's Not about higher "Consciousness."

      How could it be when Eckists' aren't
      "conscious" enough to know a scam
      after observing it for 40 years! The
      truth is, they're too close to it to see
      it! And, when they do see it (the fraud)
      they can't admit it or acknowledge it.
      Instead, they react and get frustrated
      without knowing why. Deep down in
      the subconscious they know why they
      are unhappy but can't face the truth on
      a conscious level. What would they do
      without Mahanta dependency and can
      they admit to themselves that they were
      fooled. Look at the friends they would
      lose and, let's face it, friends aren't that
      easy to come by for some people. So,
      it's a Catch-22, but Eckists are getting
      old and tired, especially, of the B.S. and
      repetition. Klemp's scam could collapse
      any day with more and more 6ths and
      7ths leaving... or dying off! Then again,
      others could move on up the pretend
      initiation ladder. That'd be special!

      Prometheus



      Quoting:

      ... even the lifetime memberships
      have to be renewed every year.
      What happens if that ECKankar
      membership isn't renewed? Even
      a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate will
      lose initiations if their membership
      lapses! Why is that? Where's the
      "inner" connection?

      *********

      About the lifetime memberships,
      is that true? No renewal, no membership?

      I'm wondering if the same applies
      as with other memberships. Where
      one can go inactive (have a "rest period")
      for up to five years but, without renewal,
      they eventually become non-members.


      prometheus wrote:
      >
      > Hello All,
      > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
      > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
      > actually, it was nice to think we would,
      > now, have two ECK Masters!
      >
      > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
      > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
      > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
      >
      > However, sometime around 1990 things,
      > for me, started to change. I noticed more
      > and more redundancy, and those simple
      > minded one dimensional stories started
      > to bring back that initial embarrassment
      > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
      > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
      > words and level of communication.
      >
      > True, there were those building projects
      > and all of those books he was writing and
      > all of those leadership trainings and intros
      > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
      > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
      > open while planning the monthly EWS and
      > Satsang classes and book discussions and
      > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
      > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
      > all chelas really have are two things- their
      > initiations and their imaginations.
      >
      > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
      > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
      > many are caught up in playing a role for both
      > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
      > and needs power and a social environment.
      > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
      > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
      >
      > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
      > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
      > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
      > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
      > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
      > as confirmation while many 7ths see themselves
      > as ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
      > of a pink slip! They delude themselves on an
      > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
      > blind and closed minded in order to protect
      > themselves from the truth. They need to do
      > this in order to have religion work for them.
      >
      > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
      > and expectations. They've become complacent,
      > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
      > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
      > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
      > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
      > for years and years of training they will see
      > that they really have nothing except a number
      > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
      > that has to be renewed every year... even the
      > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
      > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
      > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
      > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
      > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
      >
      > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
      > does he? He never takes responsibility for
      > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
      > the good. Where have we seen this before?
      > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
      > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
      > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
      > other lower plane teaching.
      >
      > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
      > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
      > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
      > But, where is that protection from disease?
      > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
      > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
      > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
      > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
      > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
      > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
      > lowered their standards?
      >
      > I think that the lowering of standards was
      > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
      > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
      > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
      > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
      > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
      > based around himself, his old Christian religion
      > and upon his opinions.
      >
      > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
      > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
      > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
      > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > etznab wrote:
      > Liska,
      >
      > Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
      > of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
      > outer teachings" more perfect and honest.
      >
      > Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
      > Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.
      >
      > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm
      >
      > where the quote
      >
      > "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
      > of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
      > simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
      > truths he was trying to share..."
      >
      > appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
      > Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
      > seven paragraphs by Doug.
      >
      > Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?
      >
      > Look at David's question which preceded all that.
      >
      > David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
      > that Paul was misleading his reading audience
      > because he used the words of other writers for
      > some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
      > was my impression of it.
      >
      > I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
      > "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
      > David asked there? [My particular question was
      > more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
      > Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
      > does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
      > words from books by other authors were used to
      > "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
      > seemed that this was a sensitive topic.
      >
      > Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
      > really make history and come out on top if only
      > it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
      > actual truth. It would be a first among religions
      > and a shining example to the rest of the world
      > if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.
      >
      > Harold appeared to move in that direction years
      > ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
      > after which he said (transcript version):
      >
      > ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
      > ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
      > in the Mahantaâ€"but not at the expense of making
      > a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
      > ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
      > soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
      > fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
      > We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
      > ment. ...."
      >
      > [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
      > Klemp - see link]
      >
      > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal%c3%82
      >
      > It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
      > have questions are coming from. And I know what it
      > is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
      > more sensitive questions about religious history my-
      > self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
      > everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
      > that others don't want to "go there".
      >
      > So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
      > path is to become more of an individual and not be
      > like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
      > and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
      > of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
      > an individual having a mind and conscience of your
      > own).
      >
      > It's not just a matter of What would happen to
      > Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
      > knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
      > place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
      > followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
      > like.)
      >
      > How long do you think religion and spiritual
      > paths have been subject to "organization" and
      > founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
      > legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
      > thousands of years, and still the actual truths
      > continue to evade millions of people because
      > the authorities are basing their information on
      > the information of others, based on others &
      > others ... and others ... and others.
      >
      > If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
      > time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
      > labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
      > people today who claim to know the truth be-
      > cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
      > is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
      > and heads of religions officiate church dogma
      > for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
      > it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
      > clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
      > ask the sensitive questions and see where it
      > gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
      > truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
      > "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
      > vehicle". IMHO.
      >
      > Etznab
    • dianastanley43
      I remember when Paul stated Jeasus was only a second initiate. Made me feel sort of speacial even though I could t walk on water. Paul based his teachings on
      Message 2 of 4 , Jul 31 8:03 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        I remember when Paul stated Jeasus was only a second initiate. Made me feel sort of speacial even though I could't walk on water.
        Paul based his teachings on his Sci-Fy back ground and Harol on his christian back ground. So I guess it is sort of a sci-fy christian collaberation. Which makes for good movies,but a spiritual teaching? Not so much.
        Diana Stanley

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Etznab and All,
        > Yes it's true! For 25 years Klemp
        > has required ECK Lifetime Memberships
        > to be renewed every year... at no
        > monetary cost. Of course, there's
        > a lot more pressure to make donations.
        > Plus, these donation amounts and
        > other statistics, as well as, RESA memos/
        > reports are added to each EK Leaders'
        > membership file.
        >
        > There were two occasions when EK
        > Lifetime Memberships were sold. The
        > first time it cost $500 and the second
        > time, around 1983, it was $1,000.
        > I remember the second time better
        > than the first because this was just
        > before Darwin was booted.
        >
        > Klemp has stated, if Lifetime Membership's
        > aren't renewed they will be lost and
        > a regular paid membership must be
        > obtained in order to keep one's initiations.
        > So much for those "Higher" God Worlds
        > of ECK (INNER) Initiations! LOL! Down
        > the drain, it seems, due to lack of money
        > or untimely renewal.
        >
        > HK: When you snooze you lose! There
        > is no free lunch! Klemp claims that Jesus
        > was a 2nd initiate, but was compassionate
        > enough to give out a Free Lunch to those
        > on the Mount where he gave his most
        > famous sermon. See the difference between
        > 14th initiate Klemp and, supposedly, 2nd
        > initiate Jesus! Klemp is a such a fraud!
        >
        > Non-renewal and going beyond the five
        > year rest periods are a mixed bag as far
        > as keeping the same initiation. It depends
        > upon the RESA and the rapport you have
        > with them... but that goes for getting
        > promoted too!
        >
        > It's Not about higher "Consciousness."
        >
        > How could it be when Eckists' aren't
        > "conscious" enough to know a scam
        > after observing it for 40 years! The
        > truth is, they're too close to it to see
        > it! And, when they do see it (the fraud)
        > they can't admit it or acknowledge it.
        > Instead, they react and get frustrated
        > without knowing why. Deep down in
        > the subconscious they know why they
        > are unhappy but can't face the truth on
        > a conscious level. What would they do
        > without Mahanta dependency and can
        > they admit to themselves that they were
        > fooled. Look at the friends they would
        > lose and, let's face it, friends aren't that
        > easy to come by for some people. So,
        > it's a Catch-22, but Eckists are getting
        > old and tired, especially, of the B.S. and
        > repetition. Klemp's scam could collapse
        > any day with more and more 6ths and
        > 7ths leaving... or dying off! Then again,
        > others could move on up the pretend
        > initiation ladder. That'd be special!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        >
        > Quoting:
        >
        > ... even the lifetime memberships
        > have to be renewed every year.
        > What happens if that ECKankar
        > membership isn't renewed? Even
        > a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate will
        > lose initiations if their membership
        > lapses! Why is that? Where's the
        > "inner" connection?
        >
        > *********
        >
        > About the lifetime memberships,
        > is that true? No renewal, no membership?
        >
        > I'm wondering if the same applies
        > as with other memberships. Where
        > one can go inactive (have a "rest period")
        > for up to five years but, without renewal,
        > they eventually become non-members.
        >
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        > >
        > > Hello All,
        > > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
        > > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
        > > actually, it was nice to think we would,
        > > now, have two ECK Masters!
        > >
        > > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
        > > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
        > > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
        > >
        > > However, sometime around 1990 things,
        > > for me, started to change. I noticed more
        > > and more redundancy, and those simple
        > > minded one dimensional stories started
        > > to bring back that initial embarrassment
        > > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
        > > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
        > > words and level of communication.
        > >
        > > True, there were those building projects
        > > and all of those books he was writing and
        > > all of those leadership trainings and intros
        > > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
        > > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
        > > open while planning the monthly EWS and
        > > Satsang classes and book discussions and
        > > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
        > > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
        > > all chelas really have are two things- their
        > > initiations and their imaginations.
        > >
        > > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
        > > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
        > > many are caught up in playing a role for both
        > > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
        > > and needs power and a social environment.
        > > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
        > > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
        > >
        > > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
        > > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
        > > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
        > > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
        > > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
        > > as confirmation while many 7ths see themselves
        > > as ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
        > > of a pink slip! They delude themselves on an
        > > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
        > > blind and closed minded in order to protect
        > > themselves from the truth. They need to do
        > > this in order to have religion work for them.
        > >
        > > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
        > > and expectations. They've become complacent,
        > > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
        > > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
        > > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
        > > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
        > > for years and years of training they will see
        > > that they really have nothing except a number
        > > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
        > > that has to be renewed every year... even the
        > > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
        > > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
        > > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
        > > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
        > > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
        > >
        > > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
        > > does he? He never takes responsibility for
        > > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
        > > the good. Where have we seen this before?
        > > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
        > > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
        > > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
        > > other lower plane teaching.
        > >
        > > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
        > > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
        > > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
        > > But, where is that protection from disease?
        > > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
        > > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
        > > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
        > > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
        > > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
        > > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
        > > lowered their standards?
        > >
        > > I think that the lowering of standards was
        > > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
        > > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
        > > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
        > > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
        > > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
        > > based around himself, his old Christian religion
        > > and upon his opinions.
        > >
        > > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
        > > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
        > > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
        > > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > etznab wrote:
        > > Liska,
        > >
        > > Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
        > > of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
        > > outer teachings" more perfect and honest.
        > >
        > > Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
        > > Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.
        > >
        > > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm
        > >
        > > where the quote
        > >
        > > "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
        > > of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
        > > simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
        > > truths he was trying to share..."
        > >
        > > appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
        > > Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
        > > seven paragraphs by Doug.
        > >
        > > Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?
        > >
        > > Look at David's question which preceded all that.
        > >
        > > David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
        > > that Paul was misleading his reading audience
        > > because he used the words of other writers for
        > > some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
        > > was my impression of it.
        > >
        > > I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
        > > "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
        > > David asked there? [My particular question was
        > > more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
        > > Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
        > > does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
        > > words from books by other authors were used to
        > > "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
        > > seemed that this was a sensitive topic.
        > >
        > > Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
        > > really make history and come out on top if only
        > > it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
        > > actual truth. It would be a first among religions
        > > and a shining example to the rest of the world
        > > if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.
        > >
        > > Harold appeared to move in that direction years
        > > ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
        > > after which he said (transcript version):
        > >
        > > ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
        > > ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
        > > in the Mahantaâ€"but not at the expense of making
        > > a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
        > > ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
        > > soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
        > > fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
        > > We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
        > > ment. ...."
        > >
        > > [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
        > > Klemp - see link]
        > >
        > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal%c3%82
        > >
        > > It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
        > > have questions are coming from. And I know what it
        > > is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
        > > more sensitive questions about religious history my-
        > > self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
        > > everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
        > > that others don't want to "go there".
        > >
        > > So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
        > > path is to become more of an individual and not be
        > > like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
        > > and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
        > > of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
        > > an individual having a mind and conscience of your
        > > own).
        > >
        > > It's not just a matter of What would happen to
        > > Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
        > > knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
        > > place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
        > > followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
        > > like.)
        > >
        > > How long do you think religion and spiritual
        > > paths have been subject to "organization" and
        > > founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
        > > legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
        > > thousands of years, and still the actual truths
        > > continue to evade millions of people because
        > > the authorities are basing their information on
        > > the information of others, based on others &
        > > others ... and others ... and others.
        > >
        > > If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
        > > time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
        > > labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
        > > people today who claim to know the truth be-
        > > cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
        > > is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
        > > and heads of religions officiate church dogma
        > > for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
        > > it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
        > > clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
        > > ask the sensitive questions and see where it
        > > gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
        > > truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
        > > "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
        > > vehicle". IMHO.
        > >
        > > Etznab
        >
      • etznab@aol.com
        Paul wrote a story about himself walking (or was that running?) on water. It was during his Navy days, I believe. Apparently, there were even witnesses :) ...
        Message 3 of 4 , Jul 31 8:54 AM
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          Paul wrote a story about himself walking (or was that running?) on
          water. It was during his Navy days, I believe. Apparently, there were
          even witnesses :)

          -----Original Message-----
          From: dianastanley43 <dianastanley43@...>
          To: EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous
          <EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sun, Jul 31, 2011 10:03 am
          Subject: [EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous] Re: Klemp Has Over-stayed His Rein

           
          I remember when Paul stated Jeasus was only a second initiate. Made me
          feel sort of speacial even though I could't walk on water.
          Paul based his teachings on his Sci-Fy back ground and Harol on his
          christian back ground. So I guess it is sort of a sci-fy christian
          collaberation. Which makes for good movies,but a spiritual teaching?
          Not so much.
          Diana Stanley

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973"
          <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Etznab and All,
          > Yes it's true! For 25 years Klemp
          > has required ECK Lifetime Memberships
          > to be renewed every year... at no
          > monetary cost. Of course, there's
          > a lot more pressure to make donations.
          > Plus, these donation amounts and
          > other statistics, as well as, RESA memos/
          > reports are added to each EK Leaders'
          > membership file.
          >
          > There were two occasions when EK
          > Lifetime Memberships were sold. The
          > first time it cost $500 and the second
          > time, around 1983, it was $1,000.
          > I remember the second time better
          > than the first because this was just
          > before Darwin was booted.
          >
          > Klemp has stated, if Lifetime Membership's
          > aren't renewed they will be lost and
          > a regular paid membership must be
          > obtained in order to keep one's initiations.
          > So much for those "Higher" God Worlds
          > of ECK (INNER) Initiations! LOL! Down
          > the drain, it seems, due to lack of money
          > or untimely renewal.
          >
          > HK: When you snooze you lose! There
          > is no free lunch! Klemp claims that Jesus
          > was a 2nd initiate, but was compassionate
          > enough to give out a Free Lunch to those
          > on the Mount where he gave his most
          > famous sermon. See the difference between
          > 14th initiate Klemp and, supposedly, 2nd
          > initiate Jesus! Klemp is a such a fraud!
          >
          > Non-renewal and going beyond the five
          > year rest periods are a mixed bag as far
          > as keeping the same initiation. It depends
          > upon the RESA and the rapport you have
          > with them... but that goes for getting
          > promoted too!
          >
          > It's Not about higher "Consciousness."
          >
          > How could it be when Eckists' aren't
          > "conscious" enough to know a scam
          > after observing it for 40 years! The
          > truth is, they're too close to it to see
          > it! And, when they do see it (the fraud)
          > they can't admit it or acknowledge it.
          > Instead, they react and get frustrated
          > without knowing why. Deep down in
          > the subconscious they know why they
          > are unhappy but can't face the truth on
          > a conscious level. What would they do
          > without Mahanta dependency and can
          > they admit to themselves that they were
          > fooled. Look at the friends they would
          > lose and, let's face it, friends aren't that
          > easy to come by for some people. So,
          > it's a Catch-22, but Eckists are getting
          > old and tired, especially, of the B.S. and
          > repetition. Klemp's scam could collapse
          > any day with more and more 6ths and
          > 7ths leaving... or dying off! Then again,
          > others could move on up the pretend
          > initiation ladder. That'd be special!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          >
          > Quoting:
          >
          > ... even the lifetime memberships
          > have to be renewed every year.
          > What happens if that ECKankar
          > membership isn't renewed? Even
          > a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate will
          > lose initiations if their membership
          > lapses! Why is that? Where's the
          > "inner" connection?
          >
          > *********
          >
          > About the lifetime memberships,
          > is that true? No renewal, no membership?
          >
          > I'm wondering if the same applies
          > as with other memberships. Where
          > one can go inactive (have a "rest period")
          > for up to five years but, without renewal,
          > they eventually become non-members.
          >
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello All,
          > > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
          > > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
          > > actually, it was nice to think we would,
          > > now, have two ECK Masters!
          > >
          > > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
          > > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
          > > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
          > >
          > > However, sometime around 1990 things,
          > > for me, started to change. I noticed more
          > > and more redundancy, and those simple
          > > minded one dimensional stories started
          > > to bring back that initial embarrassment
          > > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
          > > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
          > > words and level of communication.
          > >
          > > True, there were those building projects
          > > and all of those books he was writing and
          > > all of those leadership trainings and intros
          > > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
          > > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
          > > open while planning the monthly EWS and
          > > Satsang classes and book discussions and
          > > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
          > > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
          > > all chelas really have are two things- their
          > > initiations and their imaginations.
          > >
          > > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
          > > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
          > > many are caught up in playing a role for both
          > > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
          > > and needs power and a social environment.
          > > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
          > > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
          > >
          > > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
          > > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
          > > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
          > > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
          > > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
          > > as confirmation while many 7ths see themselves
          > > as ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
          > > of a pink slip! They delude themselves on an
          > > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
          > > blind and closed minded in order to protect
          > > themselves from the truth. They need to do
          > > this in order to have religion work for them.
          > >
          > > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
          > > and expectations. They've become complacent,
          > > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
          > > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
          > > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
          > > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
          > > for years and years of training they will see
          > > that they really have nothing except a number
          > > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
          > > that has to be renewed every year... even the
          > > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
          > > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
          > > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
          > > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
          > > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
          > >
          > > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
          > > does he? He never takes responsibility for
          > > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
          > > the good. Where have we seen this before?
          > > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
          > > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
          > > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
          > > other lower plane teaching.
          > >
          > > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
          > > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
          > > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
          > > But, where is that protection from disease?
          > > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
          > > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
          > > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
          > > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
          > > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
          > > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
          > > lowered their standards?
          > >
          > > I think that the lowering of standards was
          > > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
          > > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
          > > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
          > > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
          > > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
          > > based around himself, his old Christian religion
          > > and upon his opinions.
          > >
          > > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
          > > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
          > > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
          > > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > etznab wrote:
          > > Liska,
          > >
          > > Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
          > > of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
          > > outer teachings" more perfect and honest.
          > >
          > > Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
          > > Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.
          > >
          > > http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm
          > >
          > > where the quote
          > >
          > > "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
          > > of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
          > > simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
          > > truths he was trying to share..."
          > >
          > > appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
          > > Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
          > > seven paragraphs by Doug.
          > >
          > > Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?
          > >
          > > Look at David's question which preceded all that.
          > >
          > > David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
          > > that Paul was misleading his reading audience
          > > because he used the words of other writers for
          > > some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
          > > was my impression of it.
          > >
          > > I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
          > > "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
          > > David asked there? [My particular question was
          > > more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
          > > Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
          > > does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
          > > words from books by other authors were used to
          > > "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
          > > seemed that this was a sensitive topic.
          > >
          > > Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
          > > really make history and come out on top if only
          > > it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
          > > actual truth. It would be a first among religions
          > > and a shining example to the rest of the world
          > > if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.
          > >
          > > Harold appeared to move in that direction years
          > > ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
          > > after which he said (transcript version):
          > >
          > > ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
          > > ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
          > > in the Mahantaâ€"but not at the expense of making
          > > a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
          > > ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
          > > soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
          > > fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
          > > We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
          > > ment. ...."
          > >
          > > [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
          > > Klemp - see link]
          > >
          > > http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal%c3%82
          > >
          > > It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
          > > have questions are coming from. And I know what it
          > > is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
          > > more sensitive questions about religious history my-
          > > self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
          > > everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
          > > that others don't want to "go there".
          > >
          > > So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
          > > path is to become more of an individual and not be
          > > like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
          > > and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
          > > of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
          > > an individual having a mind and conscience of your
          > > own).
          > >
          > > It's not just a matter of What would happen to
          > > Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
          > > knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
          > > place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
          > > followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
          > > like.)
          > >
          > > How long do you think religion and spiritual
          > > paths have been subject to "organization" and
          > > founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
          > > legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
          > > thousands of years, and still the actual truths
          > > continue to evade millions of people because
          > > the authorities are basing their information on
          > > the information of others, based on others &
          > > others ... and others ... and others.
          > >
          > > If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
          > > time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
          > > labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
          > > people today who claim to know the truth be-
          > > cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
          > > is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
          > > and heads of religions officiate church dogma
          > > for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
          > > it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
          > > clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
          > > ask the sensitive questions and see where it
          > > gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
          > > truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
          > > "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
          > > vehicle". IMHO.
          > >
          > > Etznab
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Diane and All, Yes, it was Paul that said Jesus was a Second Initiate (which Klemp agreed with), and then added that he was a childhood friend of Jesus!
          Message 4 of 4 , Jul 31 1:17 PM
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            Hello Diane and All,
            Yes, it was Paul that said
            Jesus was a Second Initiate
            (which Klemp agreed with),
            and then added that he was
            a childhood friend of Jesus!

            True, Twitchell used a sci-fi
            approach, but also an Eastern
            Religious Radhasoami/Ruhani
            Satsang twist while altering
            it to fit the Western mindset.

            However, instead of taking
            the "highest truth" from these
            Eastern teachings it had actually
            been "watered down" to appeal
            to the lifestyle of Westerners.

            This is why Twitchell altered
            the Five Passions and Five
            Virtues of the Mind that are
            listed in his main resource
            book: "The Path of the Masters."
            The Virtue of 'Chastity' was
            replaced with 'Contentment'
            as the cure for the Passion
            of 'Lust.'

            Yes, Klemp was influenced by
            the Lutheran Church and the
            King James version of the Bible
            (which is the most inaccurate
            version). The Lutheran Church
            used the King James version
            to instruct him. This is his base
            that he returns to often. Other
            than this HK was also influenced
            by Eckankar and the same fabrications
            that Twit pieced and wove together.

            Klemp has even stated (as an
            excuse for plagiarism) that Paul
            took the best thoughts and teachings
            from all religions and spiritual
            teachings in order to design the
            highest spiritual (path) teachings
            anywhere. However, PT's fabrications
            and "exaggerations" are still the
            same as lies! Eckists tend to overlook
            the obvious.

            Also, HK's premise that EK is
            the "highest teachings" is extremely
            flawed. When we look at the main
            sources of Eckankar (previously listed)
            we can see that these, too, are
            manmade religions where "God"
            was created in man's image.

            People can imagine and consume
            anything that makes them feel
            good and this gives them what
            they need at the time. This is what
            religion does and that's why various
            brands are so popular... like cigarettes!

            Prometheus


            dianastanley wrote:
            I remember when Paul stated
            Jeasus was only a second initiate.
            Made me feel sort of speacial
            even though I could't walk on
            water.

            Paul based his teachings on
            his Sci-Fy back ground and
            Harol on his christian back
            ground. So I guess it is sort
            of a sci-fy christian collaberation.
            Which makes for good movies,
            but a spiritual teaching? Not
            so much.

            Diana Stanley

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello Etznab and All,
            > Yes it's true! For 25 years Klemp
            > has required ECK Lifetime Memberships
            > to be renewed every year... at no
            > monetary cost. Of course, there's
            > a lot more pressure to make donations.
            > Plus, these donation amounts and
            > other statistics, as well as, RESA memos/
            > reports are added to each EK Leaders'
            > membership file.
            >
            > There were two occasions when EK
            > Lifetime Memberships were sold. The
            > first time it cost $500 and the second
            > time, around 1983, it was $1,000.
            > I remember the second time better
            > than the first because this was just
            > before Darwin was booted.
            >
            > Klemp has stated, if Lifetime Membership's
            > aren't renewed they will be lost and
            > a regular paid membership must be
            > obtained in order to keep one's initiations.
            > So much for those "Higher" God Worlds
            > of ECK (INNER) Initiations! LOL! Down
            > the drain, it seems, due to lack of money
            > or untimely renewal.
            >
            > HK: When you snooze you lose! There
            > is no free lunch! Klemp claims that Jesus
            > was a 2nd initiate, but was compassionate
            > enough to give out a Free Lunch to those
            > on the Mount where he gave his most
            > famous sermon. See the difference between
            > 14th initiate Klemp and, supposedly, 2nd
            > initiate Jesus! Klemp is a such a fraud!
            >
            > Non-renewal and going beyond the five
            > year rest periods are a mixed bag as far
            > as keeping the same initiation. It depends
            > upon the RESA and the rapport you have
            > with them... but that goes for getting
            > promoted too!
            >
            > It's Not about higher "Consciousness."
            >
            > How could it be when Eckists' aren't
            > "conscious" enough to know a scam
            > after observing it for 40 years! The
            > truth is, they're too close to it to see
            > it! And, when they do see it (the fraud)
            > they can't admit it or acknowledge it.
            > Instead, they react and get frustrated
            > without knowing why. Deep down in
            > the subconscious they know why they
            > are unhappy but can't face the truth on
            > a conscious level. What would they do
            > without Mahanta dependency and can
            > they admit to themselves that they were
            > fooled. Look at the friends they would
            > lose and, let's face it, friends aren't that
            > easy to come by for some people. So,
            > it's a Catch-22, but Eckists are getting
            > old and tired, especially, of the B.S. and
            > repetition. Klemp's scam could collapse
            > any day with more and more 6ths and
            > 7ths leaving... or dying off! Then again,
            > others could move on up the pretend
            > initiation ladder. That'd be special!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            >
            > Quoting:
            >
            > ... even the lifetime memberships
            > have to be renewed every year.
            > What happens if that ECKankar
            > membership isn't renewed? Even
            > a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate will
            > lose initiations if their membership
            > lapses! Why is that? Where's the
            > "inner" connection?
            >
            > *********
            >
            > About the lifetime memberships,
            > is that true? No renewal, no membership?
            >
            > I'm wondering if the same applies
            > as with other memberships. Where
            > one can go inactive (have a "rest period")
            > for up to five years but, without renewal,
            > they eventually become non-members.
            >
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello All,
            > > Back in 1981 I was one of many who
            > > welcomed a change in ECK Leadership,
            > > actually, it was nice to think we would,
            > > now, have two ECK Masters!
            > >
            > > Klemp was somewhat of an embarrassment,
            > > at first, because he looked like a wimp and
            > > had no charisma. Eventually, he grew on us.
            > >
            > > However, sometime around 1990 things,
            > > for me, started to change. I noticed more
            > > and more redundancy, and those simple
            > > minded one dimensional stories started
            > > to bring back that initial embarrassment
            > > I experienced back in 1981. Except now
            > > the embarrassment was with Klemp's
            > > words and level of communication.
            > >
            > > True, there were those building projects
            > > and all of those books he was writing and
            > > all of those leadership trainings and intros
            > > and Regional seminars we had to plan and
            > > those local EK centers we had to try to keep
            > > open while planning the monthly EWS and
            > > Satsang classes and book discussions and
            > > roundtables, etc. The distractions continue!
            > > But, when one focuses upon "spiritual growth"
            > > all chelas really have are two things- their
            > > initiations and their imaginations.
            > >
            > > Eventually, after many years, most ECK leaders
            > > begin to question things (silently). Unfortunately,
            > > many are caught up in playing a role for both
            > > themselves and others. Ego wants to be recognized
            > > and needs power and a social environment.
            > > ECKankar has become a very comfortable
            > > religion, especially, for the 7th initiates.
            > >
            > > 7ths have hit the glass ceiling and most have
            > > accepted that they won't be getting an 8th (on
            > > the outer). Although, the Master's 4 Discourse,
            > > Lesson 3 states that 9ths need to have the third
            > > and final stage for that initiation on the outer
            > > as confirmation while many 7ths see themselves
            > > as ECK Masters without the outer confirmation
            > > of a pink slip! They delude themselves on an
            > > ongoing basis. Many ECKists have become
            > > blind and closed minded in order to protect
            > > themselves from the truth. They need to do
            > > this in order to have religion work for them.
            > >
            > > Other H.I.s have just lowered their standards
            > > and expectations. They've become complacent,
            > > but still have some hope, faith, and belief that
            > > what they originally bought into, years ago, is
            > > still the same, or at least as valid. Yet, if these
            > > chelas take a long hard look at the real proof
            > > for years and years of training they will see
            > > that they really have nothing except a number
            > > on a membership card. And, that's a membership
            > > that has to be renewed every year... even the
            > > lifetime memberships have to be renewed every
            > > year. What happens if that ECKankar membership
            > > isn't renewed? Even a 35 or 40 year 7th Initiate
            > > will lose initiations if their membership lapses!
            > > Why is that? Where's the "inner" connection?
            > >
            > > Klemp never holds up his end of the bargain
            > > does he? He never takes responsibility for
            > > anything bad, but seems to like credit for
            > > the good. Where have we seen this before?
            > > Maybe in politics? But, ECKankar is a religion.
            > > It's more than just a classification for Non-Profit
            > > Tax Exempt status... it's a religion like any
            > > other lower plane teaching.
            > >
            > > HK is supposed to protect and serve his chelas,
            > > isn't he? Hmmmm, I'm not so sure that HK's
            > > ever stated that his job is to "serve" his chelas.
            > > But, where is that protection from disease?
            > > With Klemp it seems to be a one-way street.
            > > Klemp does nothing except write and lecture
            > > on redundant and even stupid subjects, or
            > > fragmented nonsense once or twice a year.
            > > When HK is supposed to be the "highest
            > > consciousness anywhere" why have ECKists
            > > lowered their standards?
            > >
            > > I think that the lowering of standards was
            > > a gradual process for EK chelas, and Klemp
            > > has overstayed his time as LEM by about 15
            > > years! But, nobody can do anything about it!
            > > Klemp's taken all power away from the EK Board
            > > and has created a different kind of ECKankar
            > > based around himself, his old Christian religion
            > > and upon his opinions.
            > >
            > > Klemp's consciousness is not in the least "high."
            > > What one sees and hears is what one really gets!
            > > Sure, it helps to "imagine" more, but how long
            > > can one fool oneself? With some it's Forever!
            > >
            > > Prometheus

            > > etznab wrote:
            > > Liska,
            > >
            > > Perhaps this is the dilema facing most forms
            > > of organized religion. Making those "imperfect
            > > outer teachings" more perfect and honest.
            > >
            > > Going back to that Doug Marman quote in
            > > Chap. Eleven of Dialogue in the Age of Criticism.
            > >
            http://www.littleknownpubs.com/Dialog_Ch_Eleven.htm
            > >
            > > where the quote
            > >
            > > "In other words, Paul cast the material in the form
            > > of a dialogue with an ECK Master because, quite
            > > simply, he felt it was a better way of portraying the
            > > truths he was trying to share..."
            > >
            > > appears as the eigth paragraph in the response by
            > > Doug Marman to David Lane. Look at the previous
            > > seven paragraphs by Doug.
            > >
            > > Was it some kind of "default" tactic do you think?
            > >
            > > Look at David's question which preceded all that.
            > >
            > > David seemed (IMO) to be of the opinion there,
            > > that Paul was misleading his reading audience
            > > because he used the words of other writers for
            > > some of the "dialogues by Rebazar Tarzs". That
            > > was my impression of it.
            > >
            > > I've asked the same "basic" question myself"
            > > "Why not have Rebazar's REAL dialogues?" as
            > > David asked there? [My particular question was
            > > more along the lines of: Why not have the REAL
            > > Rebazar Tarzs?] And I also asked myself what
            > > does it mean, what does it suggest/imply that
            > > words from books by other authors were used to
            > > "animate" Rebazar Tarzs? In my experience, it
            > > seemed that this was a sensitive topic.
            > >
            > > Years ago I liked to think that Eckankar could
            > > really make history and come out on top if only
            > > it would clarify some of its dogma in context to
            > > actual truth. It would be a first among religions
            > > and a shining example to the rest of the world
            > > if it did this. That was my opinion at the time.
            > >
            > > Harold appeared to move in that direction years
            > > ago after he gave a long talk about Paul Twitchell,
            > > after which he said (transcript version):
            > >
            > > ".... Paradoxical as it may seem, my point in bring-
            > > ing out all of this has been to strengthen your faith
            > > in the Mahantaâ€"but not at the expense of making
            > > a god out of the Mahanta's vehicle, which is the Living
            > > ECK Master. It's a price we cannot afford to pay. As
            > > soon as we set someone above us, in potential or in
            > > fact, we have committed a crime against ourselves:
            > > We have limited the opportunity for our own unfold-
            > > ment. ...."
            > >
            > > [Based on: Article (The Real Foundation), by Harold
            > > Klemp - see link]
            > >
            http://www.eckankar.org/Masters/Peddar/writings.html#ideal%c3%82
            > >
            > > It's not so difficult for me to see where others who
            > > have questions are coming from. And I know what it
            > > is like (from experience) to try and ask some of the
            > > more sensitive questions about religious history my-
            > > self. It seems at times that it just isn't important to
            > > everybody else - the questions one might have. Or
            > > that others don't want to "go there".
            > >
            > > So much for that. I believe that part of a spiritual
            > > path is to become more of an individual and not be
            > > like some form of Borg drone, where your thinking
            > > and thoughts are the collective thoughts of a group
            > > of others. (Some with which you wouldn't agree as
            > > an individual having a mind and conscience of your
            > > own).
            > >
            > > It's not just a matter of What would happen to
            > > Eckankar if .... It's also a matter of people not
            > > knowing how to deal with the matter in the first
            > > place! (The matter of being ignorant when your
            > > followers expect you to be all-knowing and God-
            > > like.)
            > >
            > > How long do you think religion and spiritual
            > > paths have been subject to "organization" and
            > > founded on incomplete, missing, mythical &
            > > legendary history, etc., etc.? Hundreds, even
            > > thousands of years, and still the actual truths
            > > continue to evade millions of people because
            > > the authorities are basing their information on
            > > the information of others, based on others &
            > > others ... and others ... and others.
            > >
            > > If you ask me, many truths were lost a long
            > > time ago. Some intentionally covered up and
            > > labeled forbidden & taboo. Filling the gap are
            > > people today who claim to know the truth be-
            > > cause that is what a spiritual teacher/ master
            > > is supposed to be, apparently. So the priests
            > > and heads of religions officiate church dogma
            > > for the others on a lower level of the hierarchy
            > > it seems. Challenge that hierarchy, ask it to
            > > clarify some of the more gross contradictions,
            > > ask the sensitive questions and see where it
            > > gets you. IMO, it will sometimes lead to the
            > > truth - that the so-called hierarchy is no more
            > > "God" than is the L.E.M., or the "Mahanta's
            > > vehicle". IMHO.
            > >
            > > Etznab
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