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Klemp Has A 3rd Initiate Instruct H.I.s

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  • prometheus_973
    Yes, it s incredible but true! In the June 2011 H.I. Letter Klemp lists the insights and spiritual observations of a 12 year member and 3rd initiate, and HK
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 22, 2011
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      Yes, it's incredible but true! In the June 2011
      H.I. Letter Klemp lists the insights and spiritual
      observations of a 12 year member and 3rd
      initiate, and HK concurs with most of what
      she had to say. This is why he had it printed!

      The following comments by Eckist "Robert"
      state that, "What keeps H.I.s in ECKANKAR
      should be obvious - a regular flow of
      experiences in the Light and Sound of God.
      That is the essence of the life of the ECKist."

      ME: However, if this were true then why
      does Klemp use the "flow of experiences"
      from a 3rd initiate versus H.I.s? And, Klemp
      has the passive/aggressive nerve to shove
      this crap down the throats of his H.I.s! What
      was he really thinking? Sure, her observations
      sound good, but we've heard and/or experienced
      it all before... in the beginning! Maybe that's
      the problem with H.I.s... they've become
      jaded via the observation process. Eckankar
      is just another religion that promotes belief
      in myth, dogma, and imagination over real
      world opinion. This is why Klemp and company
      can't handle criticism just as other religionists
      can't deal with it. It has come full circle for
      Eckists! The religious hangups and limitations
      they left behind for Eckankar have become
      those of Eckankar!

      Yes, Klemp hasn't really told us anything
      about this 3rd initiate and why this holier
      than thou Eckist had "negative" experiences
      and "misunderstandings" with her coworkers
      except she's been following the "Mahanta"
      for 12 years. Maybe that's her problem.
      She has blinders on and she's a fanatic!

      Instead, Klemp promotes the views of a 3rd
      initiate in the June 2011 H.I. Letter because
      she must know something that Higher Initiates
      have forgotten or have never discovered.

      BUT, what happened to that "Inner Guidance"
      from the Mahanta that all H.I.s are supposed
      to have? Once again HK has it the fault of the
      H.I.s and not himself! There's Never responsibility
      on Klemp's part because he's a fraud! If he did
      actually have supra-powers there would be
      no need to travel to Minneapolis for seminars
      or to use physical means to communicate his
      messages to his H.I. followers. After all, the
      Mahanta approves of all initiations and only
      those who are ready will receive the pink slip
      for the Higher Initiation right?

      In truth, the problem lies with both. Klemp
      (the Mahanta) is a fraud and the EK Initiations
      are fraudulent as well. This is why neither
      work, except, with the help of an active
      imagination and the desire to make it so.

      Prometheus


      Klemp's Leadership Has Become Irrelevant:

      On Fri, 4/29/11, robert <signon77@...> wrote:

      From: robert <signon77@...>
      Subject: Re: Klemp's Eckankar Has Become Irrelevant
      To: "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...>
      Date: Friday, April 29, 2011, 11:16 AM

      It's quite simple really. Your mail
      completely ignores the spiritual reality
      of the ECK. What keeps H.I.s in ECKANKAR
      should be obvious - a regular flow of
      experiences in the Light and Sound of God.
      That is the essence of the life of the ECKist.


      I replied:

      No Bob, that's incorrect! H.I.s stay in
      Eckankar via the delusion that Klemp, the
      Mahanta, has instilled in their minds.
      They have given him permission to control
      their reality for them by believing he has
      mystical powers. Yet, he cannot even heal
      those in his inner circle.

      Their ekperiences and have become distorted.
      Klemp merely takes credit for the mind's ability
      to imagine, rationalize, and to dream. If there
      is any peek into a true "spiritual reality"
      it was done so by Soul and not via the false
      teachings of Eckankar.

      Those Eckists who have had a true "GOD"
      or "ECK" experience would, also, have
      the awareness to leave Eckankar's deceptions
      behind. This is because It would open the
      heart, mind and Soul to see those hidden
      truths that Klemp doesn't want anyone to
      speak of or to see. The fraud lies within
      the org: With where ALL the money comes
      and goes; with the phony initiations;
      with the false (prophet) Mahanta.

      Prometheus

      prometheus wrote:
      > >
      > > I was thinking about the goals
      > > and promises that bind people
      > > to Eckankar. Both are imaginary
      > > and that seems to work for many
      > > Eckists. But how many Eckists
      > > really follow the Guidelines, and
      > > EK teachings?
      > >
      > > How many Higher Initiates do the
      > > Friday Fast?
      > >
      > > How many H.I.s actually mail a
      > > monthly report?
      > >
      > > How many H.I.s do a 20 minute
      > > spiritual exercise on a daily basis?
      > >
      > > How many H.I.s are in or are teaching
      > > a Satsang Class?
      > >
      > > How many H.I.s are rereading an
      > > ECK Discourse or are doing the
      > > Workbook for that discourse?
      > >
      > > How many H.I.s drink alcohol or
      > > smoke cigarettes or cigars or
      > > play the lottery and gamble?
      > >
      > > See, it's just not working because
      > > even if a H.I. did follow all of
      > > the rules it doesn't matter! H.I.s
      > > will have the same type of dreams
      > > and advance, or not, in initiations.
      > > There's no change! They are the
      > > same people. It doesn't matter
      > > what they do! One simply becomes
      > > more deluded in order to justify
      > > 30-40 years as a member of a
      > > meaningless (cult) private social
      > > club. The only thing lacking is
      > > a secret handshake!
      > >
      > > The hard truth is there are
      > > more Christians that have more
      > > and greater "spiritual" experiences
      > > and "stories" than Eckists do!
      > >
      > > Plus, there are people of other
      > > lower plane beliefs that are much
      > > more loving than most wannabe
      > > ECK Higher Initiates. But hey,
      > > most people need to worship
      > > something or someone when
      > > they can't see the Divine light
      > > within. This is the same for Eckists.
      > > They've got their divine LEM Harji
      > > and his alter ego "The Mahanta!"
      > >
      > > But, it's all Bullshit! I'm just amazed
      > > that longtime H.I.s are still going
      > > through the motions and giving lip
      > > service to Klemp. Service and Silence...
      > > don't complain or criticize because
      > > the truth is that higher ups can't give
      > > you any reasonable answers. They
      > > side-step issues and make it into
      > > your bad for bringing up a negative.
      > > But why is wanting to know the
      > > finances of the Eckankar org (your
      > > church) a negative? Why is there no
      > > trust from the top down? What is
      > > Klemp afraid of?
      > >
      > > Prometheus
    • postekcon
      What keeps H.I.s in ekult?? They have been groomed to never question, to never criticize. They have been groomed to visualize, to make real, to surrender
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 23, 2011
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        What keeps H.I.s in ekult??

        They have been 'groomed' to never question, to never criticize. They have been 'groomed' to visualize, to make real, to surrender to a psychic entity called 'the mahanta' so it can grow and feed off their energies, with the promise it will give them protection!

        But in the 70s and 80s, we didn't understand this concept of 'grooming'. But today's enquirers, they DO!
        In consequence, ekult will never again see membership growth!
        -Postekcon



        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Yes, it's incredible but true! In the June 2011
        > H.I. Letter Klemp lists the insights and spiritual
        > observations of a 12 year member and 3rd
        > initiate, and HK concurs with most of what
        > she had to say. This is why he had it printed!
        >
        > The following comments by Eckist "Robert"
        > state that, "What keeps H.I.s in ECKANKAR
        > should be obvious - a regular flow of
        > experiences in the Light and Sound of God.
        > That is the essence of the life of the ECKist."
        >
        > ME: However, if this were true then why
        > does Klemp use the "flow of experiences"
        > from a 3rd initiate versus H.I.s? And, Klemp
        > has the passive/aggressive nerve to shove
        > this crap down the throats of his H.I.s! What
        > was he really thinking? Sure, her observations
        > sound good, but we've heard and/or experienced
        > it all before... in the beginning! Maybe that's
        > the problem with H.I.s... they've become
        > jaded via the observation process. Eckankar
        > is just another religion that promotes belief
        > in myth, dogma, and imagination over real
        > world opinion. This is why Klemp and company
        > can't handle criticism just as other religionists
        > can't deal with it. It has come full circle for
        > Eckists! The religious hangups and limitations
        > they left behind for Eckankar have become
        > those of Eckankar!
        >
        > Yes, Klemp hasn't really told us anything
        > about this 3rd initiate and why this holier
        > than thou Eckist had "negative" experiences
        > and "misunderstandings" with her coworkers
        > except she's been following the "Mahanta"
        > for 12 years. Maybe that's her problem.
        > She has blinders on and she's a fanatic!
        >
        > Instead, Klemp promotes the views of a 3rd
        > initiate in the June 2011 H.I. Letter because
        > she must know something that Higher Initiates
        > have forgotten or have never discovered.
        >
        > BUT, what happened to that "Inner Guidance"
        > from the Mahanta that all H.I.s are supposed
        > to have? Once again HK has it the fault of the
        > H.I.s and not himself! There's Never responsibility
        > on Klemp's part because he's a fraud! If he did
        > actually have supra-powers there would be
        > no need to travel to Minneapolis for seminars
        > or to use physical means to communicate his
        > messages to his H.I. followers. After all, the
        > Mahanta approves of all initiations and only
        > those who are ready will receive the pink slip
        > for the Higher Initiation right?
        >
        > In truth, the problem lies with both. Klemp
        > (the Mahanta) is a fraud and the EK Initiations
        > are fraudulent as well. This is why neither
        > work, except, with the help of an active
        > imagination and the desire to make it so.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        >
        > Klemp's Leadership Has Become Irrelevant:
        >
        > On Fri, 4/29/11, robert <signon77@...> wrote:
        >
        > From: robert <signon77@...>
        > Subject: Re: Klemp's Eckankar Has Become Irrelevant
        > To: "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...>
        > Date: Friday, April 29, 2011, 11:16 AM
        >
        > It's quite simple really. Your mail
        > completely ignores the spiritual reality
        > of the ECK. What keeps H.I.s in ECKANKAR
        > should be obvious - a regular flow of
        > experiences in the Light and Sound of God.
        > That is the essence of the life of the ECKist.
        >
        >
        > I replied:
        >
        > No Bob, that's incorrect! H.I.s stay in
        > Eckankar via the delusion that Klemp, the
        > Mahanta, has instilled in their minds.
        > They have given him permission to control
        > their reality for them by believing he has
        > mystical powers. Yet, he cannot even heal
        > those in his inner circle.
        >
        > Their ekperiences and have become distorted.
        > Klemp merely takes credit for the mind's ability
        > to imagine, rationalize, and to dream. If there
        > is any peek into a true "spiritual reality"
        > it was done so by Soul and not via the false
        > teachings of Eckankar.
        >
        > Those Eckists who have had a true "GOD"
        > or "ECK" experience would, also, have
        > the awareness to leave Eckankar's deceptions
        > behind. This is because It would open the
        > heart, mind and Soul to see those hidden
        > truths that Klemp doesn't want anyone to
        > speak of or to see. The fraud lies within
        > the org: With where ALL the money comes
        > and goes; with the phony initiations;
        > with the false (prophet) Mahanta.
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        > > >
        > > > I was thinking about the goals
        > > > and promises that bind people
        > > > to Eckankar. Both are imaginary
        > > > and that seems to work for many
        > > > Eckists. But how many Eckists
        > > > really follow the Guidelines, and
        > > > EK teachings?
        > > >
        > > > How many Higher Initiates do the
        > > > Friday Fast?
        > > >
        > > > How many H.I.s actually mail a
        > > > monthly report?
        > > >
        > > > How many H.I.s do a 20 minute
        > > > spiritual exercise on a daily basis?
        > > >
        > > > How many H.I.s are in or are teaching
        > > > a Satsang Class?
        > > >
        > > > How many H.I.s are rereading an
        > > > ECK Discourse or are doing the
        > > > Workbook for that discourse?
        > > >
        > > > How many H.I.s drink alcohol or
        > > > smoke cigarettes or cigars or
        > > > play the lottery and gamble?
        > > >
        > > > See, it's just not working because
        > > > even if a H.I. did follow all of
        > > > the rules it doesn't matter! H.I.s
        > > > will have the same type of dreams
        > > > and advance, or not, in initiations.
        > > > There's no change! They are the
        > > > same people. It doesn't matter
        > > > what they do! One simply becomes
        > > > more deluded in order to justify
        > > > 30-40 years as a member of a
        > > > meaningless (cult) private social
        > > > club. The only thing lacking is
        > > > a secret handshake!
        > > >
        > > > The hard truth is there are
        > > > more Christians that have more
        > > > and greater "spiritual" experiences
        > > > and "stories" than Eckists do!
        > > >
        > > > Plus, there are people of other
        > > > lower plane beliefs that are much
        > > > more loving than most wannabe
        > > > ECK Higher Initiates. But hey,
        > > > most people need to worship
        > > > something or someone when
        > > > they can't see the Divine light
        > > > within. This is the same for Eckists.
        > > > They've got their divine LEM Harji
        > > > and his alter ego "The Mahanta!"
        > > >
        > > > But, it's all Bullshit! I'm just amazed
        > > > that longtime H.I.s are still going
        > > > through the motions and giving lip
        > > > service to Klemp. Service and Silence...
        > > > don't complain or criticize because
        > > > the truth is that higher ups can't give
        > > > you any reasonable answers. They
        > > > side-step issues and make it into
        > > > your bad for bringing up a negative.
        > > > But why is wanting to know the
        > > > finances of the Eckankar org (your
        > > > church) a negative? Why is there no
        > > > trust from the top down? What is
        > > > Klemp afraid of?
        > > >
        > > > Prometheus
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Postekcon, I agree that Eckankar will gradually die off but only after Klemp does. Once the crazies [those Eckists wearing EMF protective underwear
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 24, 2011
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          Hello Postekcon,
          I agree that Eckankar will gradually
          die off but only after Klemp does.

          Once the "crazies" [those Eckists
          wearing EMF protective underwear
          (similar to the "Magical" underwear
          Mormons wear)] die off there will
          be less fanaticism, but already there
          is less respect and obedience toward
          the RESA structural hierarchy and
          to the time consuming and anal EK
          Guidelines/procedures.

          Yes, there's a lot of "grooming" or
          modeling/molding going on since
          there aren't a lot of new people
          showing up for anything Eckankar.

          Thus, Eckists get to "teach" and practice
          their speaking/leadership skills by giving
          intros and doing their redundant (approved)
          book discussions and EWS large and small
          group facilitating on fellow Eckists. What
          all this crap has to do with "spirituality"
          on a private and subjective Soul level is
          left vacant of real substance.

          Yes, Eckists have "surrendered" their divinity,
          Self-Mastery, and Spiritual Freedom as Soul.

          They can do nothing except via their Mahanta...
          their imagined intercessor, protector, and
          guide.

          Except HK (the Mahanta) doesn't "actually"
          intercede, protect, or guide Eckists on the
          Lower Planes where he should have the greater
          powers (over Kal, i.e. Satan)!

          I still can't figure out how Klemp side-steps
          responsibility so easily. HK didn't even
          "protect" an EK Board Member (H.I.) working
          at the ESC from dying of cancer! Now I know
          that the guy took his illness well and was
          very brave and faithful to the very last etc.,
          but so are thousands of Christians! Therefore,
          his EK bravery and EK faith sort of losses its
          luster as an example for the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
          spiritual/religious wares being sold through
          Eckankar.

          Twitchell created a very interesting little religious
          scam which Gross and Klemp were lucky enough
          to inherit, but the price for all via their delusions
          and deceit was/is karmically high.

          Wouldn't one think that 30 year (plus) ECK
          members (H.I.s) should have found Self-Mastery
          by now! It seems Eckankar doesn't work too
          well or deliver on its promises does it! Or,
          are these Souls simply slow learners???

          Prometheus


          postekcon wrote:
          What keeps H.I.s in ekult??

          They have been 'groomed' to never question,
          to never criticize. They have been 'groomed'
          to visualize, to make real, to surrender to a
          psychic entity called 'the mahanta' so it can
          grow and feed off their energies, with the
          promise it will give them protection!

          But in the 70s and 80s, we didn't understand
          this concept of 'grooming'. But today's enquirers,
          they DO!

          In consequence, ekult will never again
          see membership growth!
          -Postekcon



          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Yes, it's incredible but true! In the June 2011
          > H.I. Letter Klemp lists the insights and spiritual
          > observations of a 12 year member and 3rd
          > initiate, and HK concurs with most of what
          > she had to say. This is why he had it printed!
          >
          > The following comments by Eckist "Robert"
          > state that, "What keeps H.I.s in ECKANKAR
          > should be obvious - a regular flow of
          > experiences in the Light and Sound of God.
          > That is the essence of the life of the ECKist."
          >
          > ME: However, if this were true then why
          > does Klemp use the "flow of experiences"
          > from a 3rd initiate versus H.I.s? And, Klemp
          > has the passive/aggressive nerve to shove
          > this crap down the throats of his H.I.s! What
          > was he really thinking? Sure, her observations
          > sound good, but we've heard and/or experienced
          > it all before... in the beginning! Maybe that's
          > the problem with H.I.s... they've become
          > jaded via the observation process. Eckankar
          > is just another religion that promotes belief
          > in myth, dogma, and imagination over real
          > world opinion. This is why Klemp and company
          > can't handle criticism just as other religionists
          > can't deal with it. It has come full circle for
          > Eckists! The religious hangups and limitations
          > they left behind for Eckankar have become
          > those of Eckankar!
          >
          > Yes, Klemp hasn't really told us anything
          > about this 3rd initiate and why this holier
          > than thou Eckist had "negative" experiences
          > and "misunderstandings" with her coworkers
          > except she's been following the "Mahanta"
          > for 12 years. Maybe that's her problem.
          > She has blinders on and she's a fanatic!
          >
          > Instead, Klemp promotes the views of a 3rd
          > initiate in the June 2011 H.I. Letter because
          > she must know something that Higher Initiates
          > have forgotten or have never discovered.
          >
          > BUT, what happened to that "Inner Guidance"
          > from the Mahanta that all H.I.s are supposed
          > to have? Once again HK has it the fault of the
          > H.I.s and not himself! There's Never responsibility
          > on Klemp's part because he's a fraud! If he did
          > actually have supra-powers there would be
          > no need to travel to Minneapolis for seminars
          > or to use physical means to communicate his
          > messages to his H.I. followers. After all, the
          > Mahanta approves of all initiations and only
          > those who are ready will receive the pink slip
          > for the Higher Initiation right?
          >
          > In truth, the problem lies with both. Klemp
          > (the Mahanta) is a fraud and the EK Initiations
          > are fraudulent as well. This is why neither
          > work, except, with the help of an active
          > imagination and the desire to make it so.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > Klemp's Leadership Has Become Irrelevant:
          >
          > On Fri, 4/29/11, robert <signon77@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: robert <signon77@...>
          > Subject: Re: Klemp's Eckankar Has Become Irrelevant
          > To: "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...>
          > Date: Friday, April 29, 2011, 11:16 AM
          >
          > It's quite simple really. Your mail
          > completely ignores the spiritual reality
          > of the ECK. What keeps H.I.s in ECKANKAR
          > should be obvious - a regular flow of
          > experiences in the Light and Sound of God.
          > That is the essence of the life of the ECKist.
          >
          >
          > I replied:
          >
          > No Bob, that's incorrect! H.I.s stay in
          > Eckankar via the delusion that Klemp, the
          > Mahanta, has instilled in their minds.
          > They have given him permission to control
          > their reality for them by believing he has
          > mystical powers. Yet, he cannot even heal
          > those in his inner circle.
          >
          > Their ekperiences and have become distorted.
          > Klemp merely takes credit for the mind's ability
          > to imagine, rationalize, and to dream. If there
          > is any peek into a true "spiritual reality"
          > it was done so by Soul and not via the false
          > teachings of Eckankar.
          >
          > Those Eckists who have had a true "GOD"
          > or "ECK" experience would, also, have
          > the awareness to leave Eckankar's deceptions
          > behind. This is because It would open the
          > heart, mind and Soul to see those hidden
          > truths that Klemp doesn't want anyone to
          > speak of or to see. The fraud lies within
          > the org: With where ALL the money comes
          > and goes; with the phony initiations;
          > with the false (prophet) Mahanta.
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I was thinking about the goals
          > > > and promises that bind people
          > > > to Eckankar. Both are imaginary
          > > > and that seems to work for many
          > > > Eckists. But how many Eckists
          > > > really follow the Guidelines, and
          > > > EK teachings?
          > > >
          > > > How many Higher Initiates do the
          > > > Friday Fast?
          > > >
          > > > How many H.I.s actually mail a
          > > > monthly report?
          > > >
          > > > How many H.I.s do a 20 minute
          > > > spiritual exercise on a daily basis?
          > > >
          > > > How many H.I.s are in or are teaching
          > > > a Satsang Class?
          > > >
          > > > How many H.I.s are rereading an
          > > > ECK Discourse or are doing the
          > > > Workbook for that discourse?
          > > >
          > > > How many H.I.s drink alcohol or
          > > > smoke cigarettes or cigars or
          > > > play the lottery and gamble?
          > > >
          > > > See, it's just not working because
          > > > even if a H.I. did follow all of
          > > > the rules it doesn't matter! H.I.s
          > > > will have the same type of dreams
          > > > and advance, or not, in initiations.
          > > > There's no change! They are the
          > > > same people. It doesn't matter
          > > > what they do! One simply becomes
          > > > more deluded in order to justify
          > > > 30-40 years as a member of a
          > > > meaningless (cult) private social
          > > > club. The only thing lacking is
          > > > a secret handshake!
          > > >
          > > > The hard truth is there are
          > > > more Christians that have more
          > > > and greater "spiritual" experiences
          > > > and "stories" than Eckists do!
          > > >
          > > > Plus, there are people of other
          > > > lower plane beliefs that are much
          > > > more loving than most wannabe
          > > > ECK Higher Initiates. But hey,
          > > > most people need to worship
          > > > something or someone when
          > > > they can't see the Divine light
          > > > within. This is the same for Eckists.
          > > > They've got their divine LEM Harji
          > > > and his alter ego "The Mahanta!"
          > > >
          > > > But, it's all Bullshit! I'm just amazed
          > > > that longtime H.I.s are still going
          > > > through the motions and giving lip
          > > > service to Klemp. Service and Silence...
          > > > don't complain or criticize because
          > > > the truth is that higher ups can't give
          > > > you any reasonable answers. They
          > > > side-step issues and make it into
          > > > your bad for bringing up a negative.
          > > > But why is wanting to know the
          > > > finances of the Eckankar org (your
          > > > church) a negative? Why is there no
          > > > trust from the top down? What is
          > > > Klemp afraid of?
          > > >
          > > > Prometheus
          >
        • Non
          Hi all, It occurred to me that there is one area of the world where there may be some membership growth, and that is Africa. Cults sometimes appeal to the
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 25, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi all,

            It occurred to me that there is one area of the world where there may be some membership growth, and that is Africa. Cults sometimes appeal to the desperate and economically/educationally disadvantaged. The People there may get trapped because there is often a great deal of superstition about magic and curses etc. Once in they may fear leaving.I also noticed that in their World Seminar propaganda a quote by a man that he had found out about a new karmic family from Africa. I think this white man was being racists and dishonest, IMHO.

            Non eckster ; )

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Postekcon,
            > I agree that Eckankar will gradually
            > die off but only after Klemp does.
            >
            > Once the "crazies" [those Eckists
            > wearing EMF protective underwear
            > (similar to the "Magical" underwear
            > Mormons wear)] die off there will
            > be less fanaticism, but already there
            > is less respect and obedience toward
            > the RESA structural hierarchy and
            > to the time consuming and anal EK
            > Guidelines/procedures.
            >
            > Yes, there's a lot of "grooming" or
            > modeling/molding going on since
            > there aren't a lot of new people
            > showing up for anything Eckankar.
            >
            > Thus, Eckists get to "teach" and practice
            > their speaking/leadership skills by giving
            > intros and doing their redundant (approved)
            > book discussions and EWS large and small
            > group facilitating on fellow Eckists. What
            > all this crap has to do with "spirituality"
            > on a private and subjective Soul level is
            > left vacant of real substance.
            >
            > Yes, Eckists have "surrendered" their divinity,
            > Self-Mastery, and Spiritual Freedom as Soul.
            >
            > They can do nothing except via their Mahanta...
            > their imagined intercessor, protector, and
            > guide.
            >
            > Except HK (the Mahanta) doesn't "actually"
            > intercede, protect, or guide Eckists on the
            > Lower Planes where he should have the greater
            > powers (over Kal, i.e. Satan)!
            >
            > I still can't figure out how Klemp side-steps
            > responsibility so easily. HK didn't even
            > "protect" an EK Board Member (H.I.) working
            > at the ESC from dying of cancer! Now I know
            > that the guy took his illness well and was
            > very brave and faithful to the very last etc.,
            > but so are thousands of Christians! Therefore,
            > his EK bravery and EK faith sort of losses its
            > luster as an example for the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
            > spiritual/religious wares being sold through
            > Eckankar.
            >
            > Twitchell created a very interesting little religious
            > scam which Gross and Klemp were lucky enough
            > to inherit, but the price for all via their delusions
            > and deceit was/is karmically high.
            >
            > Wouldn't one think that 30 year (plus) ECK
            > members (H.I.s) should have found Self-Mastery
            > by now! It seems Eckankar doesn't work too
            > well or deliver on its promises does it! Or,
            > are these Souls simply slow learners???
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > postekcon wrote:
            > What keeps H.I.s in ekult??
            >
            > They have been 'groomed' to never question,
            > to never criticize. They have been 'groomed'
            > to visualize, to make real, to surrender to a
            > psychic entity called 'the mahanta' so it can
            > grow and feed off their energies, with the
            > promise it will give them protection!
            >
            > But in the 70s and 80s, we didn't understand
            > this concept of 'grooming'. But today's enquirers,
            > they DO!
            >
            > In consequence, ekult will never again
            > see membership growth!
            > -Postekcon
            >
            >
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > Yes, it's incredible but true! In the June 2011
            > > H.I. Letter Klemp lists the insights and spiritual
            > > observations of a 12 year member and 3rd
            > > initiate, and HK concurs with most of what
            > > she had to say. This is why he had it printed!
            > >
            > > The following comments by Eckist "Robert"
            > > state that, "What keeps H.I.s in ECKANKAR
            > > should be obvious - a regular flow of
            > > experiences in the Light and Sound of God.
            > > That is the essence of the life of the ECKist."
            > >
            > > ME: However, if this were true then why
            > > does Klemp use the "flow of experiences"
            > > from a 3rd initiate versus H.I.s? And, Klemp
            > > has the passive/aggressive nerve to shove
            > > this crap down the throats of his H.I.s! What
            > > was he really thinking? Sure, her observations
            > > sound good, but we've heard and/or experienced
            > > it all before... in the beginning! Maybe that's
            > > the problem with H.I.s... they've become
            > > jaded via the observation process. Eckankar
            > > is just another religion that promotes belief
            > > in myth, dogma, and imagination over real
            > > world opinion. This is why Klemp and company
            > > can't handle criticism just as other religionists
            > > can't deal with it. It has come full circle for
            > > Eckists! The religious hangups and limitations
            > > they left behind for Eckankar have become
            > > those of Eckankar!
            > >
            > > Yes, Klemp hasn't really told us anything
            > > about this 3rd initiate and why this holier
            > > than thou Eckist had "negative" experiences
            > > and "misunderstandings" with her coworkers
            > > except she's been following the "Mahanta"
            > > for 12 years. Maybe that's her problem.
            > > She has blinders on and she's a fanatic!
            > >
            > > Instead, Klemp promotes the views of a 3rd
            > > initiate in the June 2011 H.I. Letter because
            > > she must know something that Higher Initiates
            > > have forgotten or have never discovered.
            > >
            > > BUT, what happened to that "Inner Guidance"
            > > from the Mahanta that all H.I.s are supposed
            > > to have? Once again HK has it the fault of the
            > > H.I.s and not himself! There's Never responsibility
            > > on Klemp's part because he's a fraud! If he did
            > > actually have supra-powers there would be
            > > no need to travel to Minneapolis for seminars
            > > or to use physical means to communicate his
            > > messages to his H.I. followers. After all, the
            > > Mahanta approves of all initiations and only
            > > those who are ready will receive the pink slip
            > > for the Higher Initiation right?
            > >
            > > In truth, the problem lies with both. Klemp
            > > (the Mahanta) is a fraud and the EK Initiations
            > > are fraudulent as well. This is why neither
            > > work, except, with the help of an active
            > > imagination and the desire to make it so.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > >
            > > Klemp's Leadership Has Become Irrelevant:
            > >
            > > On Fri, 4/29/11, robert <signon77@> wrote:
            > >
            > > From: robert <signon77@>
            > > Subject: Re: Klemp's Eckankar Has Become Irrelevant
            > > To: "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@>
            > > Date: Friday, April 29, 2011, 11:16 AM
            > >
            > > It's quite simple really. Your mail
            > > completely ignores the spiritual reality
            > > of the ECK. What keeps H.I.s in ECKANKAR
            > > should be obvious - a regular flow of
            > > experiences in the Light and Sound of God.
            > > That is the essence of the life of the ECKist.
            > >
            > >
            > > I replied:
            > >
            > > No Bob, that's incorrect! H.I.s stay in
            > > Eckankar via the delusion that Klemp, the
            > > Mahanta, has instilled in their minds.
            > > They have given him permission to control
            > > their reality for them by believing he has
            > > mystical powers. Yet, he cannot even heal
            > > those in his inner circle.
            > >
            > > Their ekperiences and have become distorted.
            > > Klemp merely takes credit for the mind's ability
            > > to imagine, rationalize, and to dream. If there
            > > is any peek into a true "spiritual reality"
            > > it was done so by Soul and not via the false
            > > teachings of Eckankar.
            > >
            > > Those Eckists who have had a true "GOD"
            > > or "ECK" experience would, also, have
            > > the awareness to leave Eckankar's deceptions
            > > behind. This is because It would open the
            > > heart, mind and Soul to see those hidden
            > > truths that Klemp doesn't want anyone to
            > > speak of or to see. The fraud lies within
            > > the org: With where ALL the money comes
            > > and goes; with the phony initiations;
            > > with the false (prophet) Mahanta.
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > > prometheus wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > > I was thinking about the goals
            > > > > and promises that bind people
            > > > > to Eckankar. Both are imaginary
            > > > > and that seems to work for many
            > > > > Eckists. But how many Eckists
            > > > > really follow the Guidelines, and
            > > > > EK teachings?
            > > > >
            > > > > How many Higher Initiates do the
            > > > > Friday Fast?
            > > > >
            > > > > How many H.I.s actually mail a
            > > > > monthly report?
            > > > >
            > > > > How many H.I.s do a 20 minute
            > > > > spiritual exercise on a daily basis?
            > > > >
            > > > > How many H.I.s are in or are teaching
            > > > > a Satsang Class?
            > > > >
            > > > > How many H.I.s are rereading an
            > > > > ECK Discourse or are doing the
            > > > > Workbook for that discourse?
            > > > >
            > > > > How many H.I.s drink alcohol or
            > > > > smoke cigarettes or cigars or
            > > > > play the lottery and gamble?
            > > > >
            > > > > See, it's just not working because
            > > > > even if a H.I. did follow all of
            > > > > the rules it doesn't matter! H.I.s
            > > > > will have the same type of dreams
            > > > > and advance, or not, in initiations.
            > > > > There's no change! They are the
            > > > > same people. It doesn't matter
            > > > > what they do! One simply becomes
            > > > > more deluded in order to justify
            > > > > 30-40 years as a member of a
            > > > > meaningless (cult) private social
            > > > > club. The only thing lacking is
            > > > > a secret handshake!
            > > > >
            > > > > The hard truth is there are
            > > > > more Christians that have more
            > > > > and greater "spiritual" experiences
            > > > > and "stories" than Eckists do!
            > > > >
            > > > > Plus, there are people of other
            > > > > lower plane beliefs that are much
            > > > > more loving than most wannabe
            > > > > ECK Higher Initiates. But hey,
            > > > > most people need to worship
            > > > > something or someone when
            > > > > they can't see the Divine light
            > > > > within. This is the same for Eckists.
            > > > > They've got their divine LEM Harji
            > > > > and his alter ego "The Mahanta!"
            > > > >
            > > > > But, it's all Bullshit! I'm just amazed
            > > > > that longtime H.I.s are still going
            > > > > through the motions and giving lip
            > > > > service to Klemp. Service and Silence...
            > > > > don't complain or criticize because
            > > > > the truth is that higher ups can't give
            > > > > you any reasonable answers. They
            > > > > side-step issues and make it into
            > > > > your bad for bringing up a negative.
            > > > > But why is wanting to know the
            > > > > finances of the Eckankar org (your
            > > > > church) a negative? Why is there no
            > > > > trust from the top down? What is
            > > > > Klemp afraid of?
            > > > >
            > > > > Prometheus
            > >
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Non eckster and All, I agree with your assessment of African EK chelas. There are a lot of old superstitions, tribalism, animalism, a belief in magic,
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 25, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello Non eckster and All,
              I agree with your assessment
              of African EK chelas. There
              are a lot of old superstitions,
              tribalism, animalism, a belief
              in magic, and combining ithis
              and Eckankar into a hodge-podge
              of new belief.

              The White guy's "karmic family
              from Africa" sounds strange. I
              wonder if they felt the same
              about him? Eckists don't usually
              pay attention to the other side
              of the coin.

              Prometheus


              "Non" eckchains wrote:
              Hi all,

              It occurred to me that there is one area
              of the world where there may be some
              membership growth, and that is Africa.
              Cults sometimes appeal to the desperate
              and economically/educationally disadvantaged.
              The People there may get trapped because
              there is often a great deal of superstition
              about magic and curses etc. Once in they
              may fear leaving. I also noticed that in their
              World Seminar propaganda a quote by a
              man that he had found out about a new
              karmic family from Africa. I think this white
              man was being racists and dishonest, IMHO.

              Non eckster ; )

              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hello Postekcon,
              > I agree that Eckankar will gradually
              > die off but only after Klemp does.
              >
              > Once the "crazies" [those Eckists
              > wearing EMF protective underwear
              > (similar to the "Magical" underwear
              > Mormons wear)] die off there will
              > be less fanaticism, but already there
              > is less respect and obedience toward
              > the RESA structural hierarchy and
              > to the time consuming and anal EK
              > Guidelines/procedures.
              >
              > Yes, there's a lot of "grooming" or
              > modeling/molding going on since
              > there aren't a lot of new people
              > showing up for anything Eckankar.
              >
              > Thus, Eckists get to "teach" and practice
              > their speaking/leadership skills by giving
              > intros and doing their redundant (approved)
              > book discussions and EWS large and small
              > group facilitating on fellow Eckists. What
              > all this crap has to do with "spirituality"
              > on a private and subjective Soul level is
              > left vacant of real substance.
              >
              > Yes, Eckists have "surrendered" their divinity,
              > Self-Mastery, and Spiritual Freedom as Soul.
              >
              > They can do nothing except via their Mahanta...
              > their imagined intercessor, protector, and
              > guide.
              >
              > Except HK (the Mahanta) doesn't "actually"
              > intercede, protect, or guide Eckists on the
              > Lower Planes where he should have the greater
              > powers (over Kal, i.e. Satan)!
              >
              > I still can't figure out how Klemp side-steps
              > responsibility so easily. HK didn't even
              > "protect" an EK Board Member (H.I.) working
              > at the ESC from dying of cancer! Now I know
              > that the guy took his illness well and was
              > very brave and faithful to the very last etc.,
              > but so are thousands of Christians! Therefore,
              > his EK bravery and EK faith sort of losses its
              > luster as an example for the Mahanta's (Klemp's)
              > spiritual/religious wares being sold through
              > Eckankar.
              >
              > Twitchell created a very interesting little religious
              > scam which Gross and Klemp were lucky enough
              > to inherit, but the price for all via their delusions
              > and deceit was/is karmically high.
              >
              > Wouldn't one think that 30 year (plus) ECK
              > members (H.I.s) should have found Self-Mastery
              > by now! It seems Eckankar doesn't work too
              > well or deliver on its promises does it! Or,
              > are these Souls simply slow learners???
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > postekcon wrote:
              > What keeps H.I.s in ekult??
              >
              > They have been 'groomed' to never question,
              > to never criticize. They have been 'groomed'
              > to visualize, to make real, to surrender to a
              > psychic entity called 'the mahanta' so it can
              > grow and feed off their energies, with the
              > promise it will give them protection!
              >
              > But in the 70s and 80s, we didn't understand
              > this concept of 'grooming'. But today's enquirers,
              > they DO!
              >
              > In consequence, ekult will never again
              > see membership growth!
              > -Postekcon
              >
              >
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > > Yes, it's incredible but true! In the June 2011
              > > H.I. Letter Klemp lists the insights and spiritual
              > > observations of a 12 year member and 3rd
              > > initiate, and HK concurs with most of what
              > > she had to say. This is why he had it printed!
              > >
              > > The following comments by Eckist "Robert"
              > > state that, "What keeps H.I.s in ECKANKAR
              > > should be obvious - a regular flow of
              > > experiences in the Light and Sound of God.
              > > That is the essence of the life of the ECKist."
              > >
              > > ME: However, if this were true then why
              > > does Klemp use the "flow of experiences"
              > > from a 3rd initiate versus H.I.s? And, Klemp
              > > has the passive/aggressive nerve to shove
              > > this crap down the throats of his H.I.s! What
              > > was he really thinking? Sure, her observations
              > > sound good, but we've heard and/or experienced
              > > it all before... in the beginning! Maybe that's
              > > the problem with H.I.s... they've become
              > > jaded via the observation process. Eckankar
              > > is just another religion that promotes belief
              > > in myth, dogma, and imagination over real
              > > world opinion. This is why Klemp and company
              > > can't handle criticism just as other religionists
              > > can't deal with it. It has come full circle for
              > > Eckists! The religious hangups and limitations
              > > they left behind for Eckankar have become
              > > those of Eckankar!
              > >
              > > Yes, Klemp hasn't really told us anything
              > > about this 3rd initiate and why this holier
              > > than thou Eckist had "negative" experiences
              > > and "misunderstandings" with her coworkers
              > > except she's been following the "Mahanta"
              > > for 12 years. Maybe that's her problem.
              > > She has blinders on and she's a fanatic!
              > >
              > > Instead, Klemp promotes the views of a 3rd
              > > initiate in the June 2011 H.I. Letter because
              > > she must know something that Higher Initiates
              > > have forgotten or have never discovered.
              > >
              > > BUT, what happened to that "Inner Guidance"
              > > from the Mahanta that all H.I.s are supposed
              > > to have? Once again HK has it the fault of the
              > > H.I.s and not himself! There's Never responsibility
              > > on Klemp's part because he's a fraud! If he did
              > > actually have supra-powers there would be
              > > no need to travel to Minneapolis for seminars
              > > or to use physical means to communicate his
              > > messages to his H.I. followers. After all, the
              > > Mahanta approves of all initiations and only
              > > those who are ready will receive the pink slip
              > > for the Higher Initiation right?
              > >
              > > In truth, the problem lies with both. Klemp
              > > (the Mahanta) is a fraud and the EK Initiations
              > > are fraudulent as well. This is why neither
              > > work, except, with the help of an active
              > > imagination and the desire to make it so.
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > >
              > > Klemp's Leadership Has Become Irrelevant:
              > >
              > > On Fri, 4/29/11, robert <signon77@> wrote:
              > >
              > > From: robert <signon77@>
              > > Subject: Re: Klemp's Eckankar Has Become Irrelevant
              > > To: "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@>
              > > Date: Friday, April 29, 2011, 11:16 AM
              > >
              > > It's quite simple really. Your mail
              > > completely ignores the spiritual reality
              > > of the ECK. What keeps H.I.s in ECKANKAR
              > > should be obvious - a regular flow of
              > > experiences in the Light and Sound of God.
              > > That is the essence of the life of the ECKist.
              > >
              > >
              > > I replied:
              > >
              > > No Bob, that's incorrect! H.I.s stay in
              > > Eckankar via the delusion that Klemp, the
              > > Mahanta, has instilled in their minds.
              > > They have given him permission to control
              > > their reality for them by believing he has
              > > mystical powers. Yet, he cannot even heal
              > > those in his inner circle.
              > >
              > > Their ekperiences and have become distorted.
              > > Klemp merely takes credit for the mind's ability
              > > to imagine, rationalize, and to dream. If there
              > > is any peek into a true "spiritual reality"
              > > it was done so by Soul and not via the false
              > > teachings of Eckankar.
              > >
              > > Those Eckists who have had a true "GOD"
              > > or "ECK" experience would, also, have
              > > the awareness to leave Eckankar's deceptions
              > > behind. This is because It would open the
              > > heart, mind and Soul to see those hidden
              > > truths that Klemp doesn't want anyone to
              > > speak of or to see. The fraud lies within
              > > the org: With where ALL the money comes
              > > and goes; with the phony initiations;
              > > with the false (prophet) Mahanta.
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > > prometheus wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > I was thinking about the goals
              > > > > and promises that bind people
              > > > > to Eckankar. Both are imaginary
              > > > > and that seems to work for many
              > > > > Eckists. But how many Eckists
              > > > > really follow the Guidelines, and
              > > > > EK teachings?
              > > > >
              > > > > How many Higher Initiates do the
              > > > > Friday Fast?
              > > > >
              > > > > How many H.I.s actually mail a
              > > > > monthly report?
              > > > >
              > > > > How many H.I.s do a 20 minute
              > > > > spiritual exercise on a daily basis?
              > > > >
              > > > > How many H.I.s are in or are teaching
              > > > > a Satsang Class?
              > > > >
              > > > > How many H.I.s are rereading an
              > > > > ECK Discourse or are doing the
              > > > > Workbook for that discourse?
              > > > >
              > > > > How many H.I.s drink alcohol or
              > > > > smoke cigarettes or cigars or
              > > > > play the lottery and gamble?
              > > > >
              > > > > See, it's just not working because
              > > > > even if a H.I. did follow all of
              > > > > the rules it doesn't matter! H.I.s
              > > > > will have the same type of dreams
              > > > > and advance, or not, in initiations.
              > > > > There's no change! They are the
              > > > > same people. It doesn't matter
              > > > > what they do! One simply becomes
              > > > > more deluded in order to justify
              > > > > 30-40 years as a member of a
              > > > > meaningless (cult) private social
              > > > > club. The only thing lacking is
              > > > > a secret handshake!
              > > > >
              > > > > The hard truth is there are
              > > > > more Christians that have more
              > > > > and greater "spiritual" experiences
              > > > > and "stories" than Eckists do!
              > > > >
              > > > > Plus, there are people of other
              > > > > lower plane beliefs that are much
              > > > > more loving than most wannabe
              > > > > ECK Higher Initiates. But hey,
              > > > > most people need to worship
              > > > > something or someone when
              > > > > they can't see the Divine light
              > > > > within. This is the same for Eckists.
              > > > > They've got their divine LEM Harji
              > > > > and his alter ego "The Mahanta!"
              > > > >
              > > > > But, it's all Bullshit! I'm just amazed
              > > > > that longtime H.I.s are still going
              > > > > through the motions and giving lip
              > > > > service to Klemp. Service and Silence...
              > > > > don't complain or criticize because
              > > > > the truth is that higher ups can't give
              > > > > you any reasonable answers. They
              > > > > side-step issues and make it into
              > > > > your bad for bringing up a negative.
              > > > > But why is wanting to know the
              > > > > finances of the Eckankar org (your
              > > > > church) a negative? Why is there no
              > > > > trust from the top down? What is
              > > > > Klemp afraid of?
              > > > >
              > > > > Prometheus
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