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Re: H.I. Letter- June 2011- Ask the Master

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  • Non
    Interesting history of Klemp s childhood. Seems odd that his father would pay for him to go to a religious boarding school. But who knows for sure the dynamics
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 10, 2011
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      Interesting history of Klemp's childhood. Seems odd that his father would pay for him to go to a religious boarding school. But who knows for sure the dynamics involved. We don't know what kind of discipline was used. Shaming and and physical abuse can make a child grow up to be a sociopath and they learn not to really feel empathy, often mistreating their own children. Of course it is not 100%. There are also examples of those who had a stronger constitution and eventually learned how to change and be a better person instead, but usually it requires a willingness to accept help, whatever the form.

      When I watch Klemp he seems to always have this superior, contemptuous look in his eyes, no matter how big the intermittent practiced grin. It is reported that Hitler was beaten on almost a daily basis, and bragged about how much of a beating he could take without crying. He was a gang leader in his teens, shall we say the worst kind of Cult leader, ruthless.

      It is also interesting that Klemp has a ruthless quality to his personality. When he fought it out with Gross in court over who was the real eck master or mahanta he eventually claimed absolute power over his little eck kingdom. H.I. eckists I know have that same ruthless quality, in that they are ready to go to war if you ask too many questions about their precious eckankar. They are also big hypocrites. Anyone want some eck love?

      Non eckster ; )

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Non eckster and All,
      > I always thought that a combination
      > of karma and choice were available
      > to Souls who were future Eckists in
      > this lifetime. After all, it has been stated
      > that we had been EK chelas in past lives.
      > Therefore, the Mahanta would intervene
      > for us and by-pass the Lords of Karma,
      > and, if we had advanced far enough that
      > we would be permitted to have some
      > choices as well.
      >
      >
      > Here's Klemp's response:
      > "Your experience was much like mine
      > too. I would have thought long and hard
      > before engaging in another lifetime with
      > Dad for a parent. He had many good points,
      > to be sure. However, as I left childhood,
      > we were increasingly uncomfortable around
      > each other."
      >
      > ME: Klemp is not being completely honest.
      > Little Harold was uncomfortable around most
      > people, especially, adults. He criticized and
      > judged people constantly and had a negative
      > attitude. Klemp chose to be sent to an all boys
      > Lutheran school and this was a financial burden
      > to his family, but instead of appreciation he gave
      > them disdain. And, little Harold only contributed
      > to farm chores during the Summer, thus, putting
      > more strain on other family members. HK's unloving
      > attitude and lack of empathy is transparent.
      >
      > HK: "People often have an exalted view of
      > how much they say they have in their own
      > lives. Usually it amounts to very little.
      >
      > BUT to gain esteem in their own eyes for
      > dreams unmet, they tell others that they
      > were spiritually advanced enough to choose
      > the conditions of their own rebirth. It really
      > is an excuse in delusion." [end]
      >
      > ME: Isn't that what Klemp has done? Isn't
      > that what Paul and Darwin did as well?
      > True, there are a lot of delusional H.I.'s,
      > but can one blame them when they emulate
      > Klemp? The Catch-22 is that even though
      > Klemp's warning is put into print it won't
      > matter. The delusion is so thick and encrusted
      > that neither Klemp or his H.I.s will recognize
      > it! Delusion protects them (and their egos)
      > from the Truth. If anyone has an "exalted
      > view" of who they think they are it's the
      > fake Mahanta/Spiritual Master Klemp! LOL!
      > It's the blind leading the blind!
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
      > eckchains wrote:
      > Parents and society are responsible for nurturing and raising their children
      > with compassion and non abusively. It is an absurd New Age belief that children
      > choose their parents. Children do not have that choice. Abused children often
      > feel responsible for bad parenting, and are soooo much better off if the parents
      > are there for them and doing the best they can without being authoritarian or
      > neglectful. Psychological studies bear this out
      >
      > I heard on the radio that it is even stated in the Bible and other idiotic
      > religious texts, that those who do not "honor" their parents should be put to
      > death. Children aren't property. And some parents should be in prison, IMHO.
      >
      > Non eckster ; )
      >
      >
      > prometheus wrote:
      >
      > > Q: "Several times in the last few
      > > days I have heard different Eckists,
      > > an H.I. included, talk about how
      > > people, as Soul, choose their parents
      > > and the circumstances into which
      > > they will be born. Most of the chelas
      > > in my area seem to subscribe to
      > > this belief. My understanding is that
      > > some Souls have worked out their
      > > karma enough to have earned the
      > > right to choose for themselves but
      > > that maybe not all people or even
      > > all Eckists fit into this category.
      > >
      > > One night in the dream state, I was
      > > shown what occurred before I was
      > > born into this lifetime. I was before
      > > the Lords of Karma. They told me
      > > what the conditions would be for the
      > > first eighteen years of this lifetime.
      > > I did not have a choice in the matter.
      > > I would appreciate any clarity or
      > > insights you could give me about
      > > this aspect of the ECK teachings."
      > >
      > > ME: Before giving Klemp's response
      > > does anyone else want to comment
      > > and give their opinions. Since Klemp
      > > had issues with his father and didn't
      > > chose to attend his father's funeral
      > > or comfort his mother from her grief
      > > his response to this topic will be more
      > > bias. What would be a balanced and
      > > detached response to this Lords of
      > > Karma issue on a Soul level?
      > >
      > > Prometheus
      >
    • prometheus_973
      Hello Non eckster, I don t believe Klemp had a tough or an abusive childhood except for having to do farm chores, but that was expected from all farm kids.
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 11, 2011
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        Hello Non eckster,
        I don't believe Klemp had a
        tough or an abusive childhood
        except for having to do farm
        chores, but that was expected
        from all farm kids. FYI, HK had
        an Older brother and a younger
        sister and brother as well. Thus,
        there was no "Virgin Birth" as
        required in Eckankar's first Holy
        Book the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
        Book One, Chapter 6.

        Klemp's father died (Oct. 1971)
        when he was around 30 years old.

        BTW- I always heard that Hitler
        had a charitable and protective
        mother and that his father died
        when he was a young boy. Then
        again, I can see why he lied about
        having it tough just as Klemp lies.
        But, it could be that this is just more
        delusional thinking and a means
        of coping which comes from an
        overprotective ego.

        As far as that All Boys Lutheran
        School that Klemp attended...
        it wasn't because little Harold
        was spiritual or was seeking God.
        He has admitted that he wanted
        to go because his cousin was
        attending... and he wanted to
        get away from having to do farm
        chores, especially, during those
        Wisconsin winters. But, remember
        too, HK also isolated himself from
        his siblings.


        The funny thing is that Twitchell
        (the first Mahanta) had something
        negative to say about these "All
        Boys Schools." In the Summer
        of 1971 Twitchell gave some
        interviews that were put into
        the book, "Difficulties Of Becoming
        The Living ECK Master." On pages
        46-48 the Mahanta/LEM gives
        this explanation and warning:

        "This is one reason we don't have
        ashrams in ECKANKAR. They can
        create unhealthy situations and
        individuals seldom have their own
        psychic space to breathe in. Now
        you see, the same thing occurs in
        seminaries of the Christian church.
        These Christian seminaries, when
        you're training young boys to grow
        up, they are looking for all the
        things which will explain to them
        manhood or the problems of life.
        It can create sexual aberrations.
        ... you can walk around the corner
        of one of these ashrams or the
        monasteries and find the boys there
        abusing themselves... this seems
        to be part of the animal nature in
        which Indians in the religious orders
        allow these young people to do. I
        had always been surprised to see
        that myself, no matter how much
        I had become accustomed to chancing
        upon such a thing."

        In the next sentence (page 48) Twitch
        mentions leaving India and that he
        was about 16 years old at this time...
        liar! Even Klemp states on Eckankar.org
        that at age 27, in 1935, that Twitchell
        had never travelled far from home
        when he was "exaggerating" and
        "twisting facts" to get into "Who's
        Who in Kentucky." Interesting, that
        in 1971, that Twichell (the Mahanta)
        is still lying about his past. But, what
        does this really tell us? It tells us that
        Gross and Klemp merely inherited
        an organization/church (scam) built
        upon a foundation of lies. Klemp is
        both the protector and perpetrator
        of lies, distortion, and delusion.

        Anyway, it seems that Twitchell and
        Klemp have an opposite view on the
        subject of masturbation. Klemp
        recently commented on the subject
        and said that it was okay. However,
        IMO, the act itself fulfills (natural)
        desires of lust. It's quite a quagmire
        for the Mahanta and Spiritual Leader
        of Eckankar and Modern Prophet
        (Klemp) to take such a position.
        Does one repress these innate desires
        and become frustrated, or become
        a "spiritual" hypocrite by saying one
        thing and doing another? Or, is one
        able to take the, supposedly, higher
        "spiritual" path and remain chaste
        and devoid of "bad" lower plane
        desires and attachments? Apparently
        Klemp is saying no!

        Prometheus


        eckchains wrote:
        Interesting history of Klemp's childhood. Seems odd that his father would pay
        for him to go to a religious boarding school. But who knows for sure the
        dynamics involved. We don't know what kind of discipline was used. Shaming and
        and physical abuse can make a child grow up to be a sociopath and they learn not
        to really feel empathy, often mistreating their own children. Of course it is
        not 100%. There are also examples of those who had a stronger constitution and
        eventually learned how to change and be a better person instead, but usually it
        requires a willingness to accept help, whatever the form.

        When I watch Klemp he seems to always have this superior, contemptuous look in
        his eyes, no matter how big the intermittent practiced grin. It is reported that
        Hitler was beaten on almost a daily basis, and bragged about how much of a
        beating he could take without crying. He was a gang leader in his teens, shall
        we say the worst kind of Cult leader, ruthless.

        It is also interesting that Klemp has a ruthless quality to his personality.
        When he fought it out with Gross in court over who was the real eck master or
        mahanta he eventually claimed absolute power over his little eck kingdom. H.I.
        eckists I know have that same ruthless quality, in that they are ready to go to
        war if you ask too many questions about their precious eckankar. They are also
        big hypocrites. Anyone want some eck love?

        Non eckster ; )

        prometheus wrote:
        >
        > Hello Non eckster and All,
        > I always thought that a combination
        > of karma and choice were available
        > to Souls who were future Eckists in
        > this lifetime. After all, it has been stated
        > that we had been EK chelas in past lives.
        > Therefore, the Mahanta would intervene
        > for us and by-pass the Lords of Karma,
        > and, if we had advanced far enough that
        > we would be permitted to have some
        > choices as well.
        >
        >
        > Here's Klemp's response:
        > "Your experience was much like mine
        > too. I would have thought long and hard
        > before engaging in another lifetime with
        > Dad for a parent. He had many good points,
        > to be sure. However, as I left childhood,
        > we were increasingly uncomfortable around
        > each other."
        >
        > ME: Klemp is not being completely honest.
        > Little Harold was uncomfortable around most
        > people, especially, adults. He criticized and
        > judged people constantly and had a negative
        > attitude. Klemp chose to be sent to an all boys
        > Lutheran school and this was a financial burden
        > to his family, but instead of appreciation he gave
        > them disdain. And, little Harold only contributed
        > to farm chores during the Summer, thus, putting
        > more strain on other family members. HK's unloving
        > attitude and lack of empathy is transparent.
        >
        > HK: "People often have an exalted view of
        > how much they say they have in their own
        > lives. Usually it amounts to very little.
        >
        > BUT to gain esteem in their own eyes for
        > dreams unmet, they tell others that they
        > were spiritually advanced enough to choose
        > the conditions of their own rebirth. It really
        > is an excuse in delusion." [end]
        >
        > ME: Isn't that what Klemp has done? Isn't
        > that what Paul and Darwin did as well?
        > True, there are a lot of delusional H.I.'s,
        > but can one blame them when they emulate
        > Klemp? The Catch-22 is that even though
        > Klemp's warning is put into print it won't
        > matter. The delusion is so thick and encrusted
        > that neither Klemp or his H.I.s will recognize
        > it! Delusion protects them (and their egos)
        > from the Truth. If anyone has an "exalted
        > view" of who they think they are it's the
        > fake Mahanta/Spiritual Master Klemp! LOL!
        > It's the blind leading the blind!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > eckchains wrote:
        > Parents and society are responsible for nurturing and raising their children
        > with compassion and non abusively. It is an absurd New Age belief that
        children
        > choose their parents. Children do not have that choice. Abused children often
        > feel responsible for bad parenting, and are soooo much better off if the
        parents
        > are there for them and doing the best they can without being authoritarian or
        > neglectful. Psychological studies bear this out
        >
        > I heard on the radio that it is even stated in the Bible and other idiotic
        > religious texts, that those who do not "honor" their parents should be put to
        > death. Children aren't property. And some parents should be in prison, IMHO.
        >
        > Non eckster ; )
        >
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        >
        > > Q: "Several times in the last few
        > > days I have heard different Eckists,
        > > an H.I. included, talk about how
        > > people, as Soul, choose their parents
        > > and the circumstances into which
        > > they will be born. Most of the chelas
        > > in my area seem to subscribe to
        > > this belief. My understanding is that
        > > some Souls have worked out their
        > > karma enough to have earned the
        > > right to choose for themselves but
        > > that maybe not all people or even
        > > all Eckists fit into this category.
        > >
        > > One night in the dream state, I was
        > > shown what occurred before I was
        > > born into this lifetime. I was before
        > > the Lords of Karma. They told me
        > > what the conditions would be for the
        > > first eighteen years of this lifetime.
        > > I did not have a choice in the matter.
        > > I would appreciate any clarity or
        > > insights you could give me about
        > > this aspect of the ECK teachings."
        > >
        > > ME: Before giving Klemp's response
        > > does anyone else want to comment
        > > and give their opinions. Since Klemp
        > > had issues with his father and didn't
        > > chose to attend his father's funeral
        > > or comfort his mother from her grief
        > > his response to this topic will be more
        > > bias. What would be a balanced and
        > > detached response to this Lords of
        > > Karma issue on a Soul level?
        > >
        > > Prometheus
      • Non
        Hi Prometheus, Yes it does sound like there is a lot of lying and distortion. It just seems like Klemp is contemptuous about something. I have heard that other
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 11, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi Prometheus,

          Yes it does sound like there is a lot of lying and distortion. It just seems like Klemp is contemptuous about something. I have heard that other Cult leaders often were Bullies in childhood. Also, as you noted, who knows about those boy's religious Boarding Schools. Maybe there is also just some kind of Psychiatric problems as well, A penchant for getting naked in air ports and jumping off bridges, etc. He's already admitted having to lie to the Psychiatrist, right?

          Anytime there is this weird self-hate about sexuality it seems like all kinds of perverse manifestations occur. Religions always seem to equate "Purity" with virginity, which is ridiculous, especially when it seems like it is usually the women who have to be the most pure by being a virgin. Of course this never really fits with reality as a human biological being. Lust. Talk about cognitive dissonance. So much attention is placed on supposed negativity. It is so obvious as a control tactic. Don't feel anything like doubt or anger at the hypocritical lem.

          Non eckster ; )

          --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Non eckster,
          > I don't believe Klemp had a
          > tough or an abusive childhood
          > except for having to do farm
          > chores, but that was expected
          > from all farm kids. FYI, HK had
          > an Older brother and a younger
          > sister and brother as well. Thus,
          > there was no "Virgin Birth" as
          > required in Eckankar's first Holy
          > Book the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
          > Book One, Chapter 6.
          >
          > Klemp's father died (Oct. 1971)
          > when he was around 30 years old.
          >
          > BTW- I always heard that Hitler
          > had a charitable and protective
          > mother and that his father died
          > when he was a young boy. Then
          > again, I can see why he lied about
          > having it tough just as Klemp lies.
          > But, it could be that this is just more
          > delusional thinking and a means
          > of coping which comes from an
          > overprotective ego.
          >
          > As far as that All Boys Lutheran
          > School that Klemp attended...
          > it wasn't because little Harold
          > was spiritual or was seeking God.
          > He has admitted that he wanted
          > to go because his cousin was
          > attending... and he wanted to
          > get away from having to do farm
          > chores, especially, during those
          > Wisconsin winters. But, remember
          > too, HK also isolated himself from
          > his siblings.
          >
          >
          > The funny thing is that Twitchell
          > (the first Mahanta) had something
          > negative to say about these "All
          > Boys Schools." In the Summer
          > of 1971 Twitchell gave some
          > interviews that were put into
          > the book, "Difficulties Of Becoming
          > The Living ECK Master." On pages
          > 46-48 the Mahanta/LEM gives
          > this explanation and warning:
          >
          > "This is one reason we don't have
          > ashrams in ECKANKAR. They can
          > create unhealthy situations and
          > individuals seldom have their own
          > psychic space to breathe in. Now
          > you see, the same thing occurs in
          > seminaries of the Christian church.
          > These Christian seminaries, when
          > you're training young boys to grow
          > up, they are looking for all the
          > things which will explain to them
          > manhood or the problems of life.
          > It can create sexual aberrations.
          > ... you can walk around the corner
          > of one of these ashrams or the
          > monasteries and find the boys there
          > abusing themselves... this seems
          > to be part of the animal nature in
          > which Indians in the religious orders
          > allow these young people to do. I
          > had always been surprised to see
          > that myself, no matter how much
          > I had become accustomed to chancing
          > upon such a thing."
          >
          > In the next sentence (page 48) Twitch
          > mentions leaving India and that he
          > was about 16 years old at this time...
          > liar! Even Klemp states on Eckankar.org
          > that at age 27, in 1935, that Twitchell
          > had never travelled far from home
          > when he was "exaggerating" and
          > "twisting facts" to get into "Who's
          > Who in Kentucky." Interesting, that
          > in 1971, that Twichell (the Mahanta)
          > is still lying about his past. But, what
          > does this really tell us? It tells us that
          > Gross and Klemp merely inherited
          > an organization/church (scam) built
          > upon a foundation of lies. Klemp is
          > both the protector and perpetrator
          > of lies, distortion, and delusion.
          >
          > Anyway, it seems that Twitchell and
          > Klemp have an opposite view on the
          > subject of masturbation. Klemp
          > recently commented on the subject
          > and said that it was okay. However,
          > IMO, the act itself fulfills (natural)
          > desires of lust. It's quite a quagmire
          > for the Mahanta and Spiritual Leader
          > of Eckankar and Modern Prophet
          > (Klemp) to take such a position.
          > Does one repress these innate desires
          > and become frustrated, or become
          > a "spiritual" hypocrite by saying one
          > thing and doing another? Or, is one
          > able to take the, supposedly, higher
          > "spiritual" path and remain chaste
          > and devoid of "bad" lower plane
          > desires and attachments? Apparently
          > Klemp is saying no!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          >
          > eckchains wrote:
          > Interesting history of Klemp's childhood. Seems odd that his father would pay
          > for him to go to a religious boarding school. But who knows for sure the
          > dynamics involved. We don't know what kind of discipline was used. Shaming and
          > and physical abuse can make a child grow up to be a sociopath and they learn not
          > to really feel empathy, often mistreating their own children. Of course it is
          > not 100%. There are also examples of those who had a stronger constitution and
          > eventually learned how to change and be a better person instead, but usually it
          > requires a willingness to accept help, whatever the form.
          >
          > When I watch Klemp he seems to always have this superior, contemptuous look in
          > his eyes, no matter how big the intermittent practiced grin. It is reported that
          > Hitler was beaten on almost a daily basis, and bragged about how much of a
          > beating he could take without crying. He was a gang leader in his teens, shall
          > we say the worst kind of Cult leader, ruthless.
          >
          > It is also interesting that Klemp has a ruthless quality to his personality.
          > When he fought it out with Gross in court over who was the real eck master or
          > mahanta he eventually claimed absolute power over his little eck kingdom. H.I.
          > eckists I know have that same ruthless quality, in that they are ready to go to
          > war if you ask too many questions about their precious eckankar. They are also
          > big hypocrites. Anyone want some eck love?
          >
          > Non eckster ; )
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > Hello Non eckster and All,
          > > I always thought that a combination
          > > of karma and choice were available
          > > to Souls who were future Eckists in
          > > this lifetime. After all, it has been stated
          > > that we had been EK chelas in past lives.
          > > Therefore, the Mahanta would intervene
          > > for us and by-pass the Lords of Karma,
          > > and, if we had advanced far enough that
          > > we would be permitted to have some
          > > choices as well.
          > >
          > >
          > > Here's Klemp's response:
          > > "Your experience was much like mine
          > > too. I would have thought long and hard
          > > before engaging in another lifetime with
          > > Dad for a parent. He had many good points,
          > > to be sure. However, as I left childhood,
          > > we were increasingly uncomfortable around
          > > each other."
          > >
          > > ME: Klemp is not being completely honest.
          > > Little Harold was uncomfortable around most
          > > people, especially, adults. He criticized and
          > > judged people constantly and had a negative
          > > attitude. Klemp chose to be sent to an all boys
          > > Lutheran school and this was a financial burden
          > > to his family, but instead of appreciation he gave
          > > them disdain. And, little Harold only contributed
          > > to farm chores during the Summer, thus, putting
          > > more strain on other family members. HK's unloving
          > > attitude and lack of empathy is transparent.
          > >
          > > HK: "People often have an exalted view of
          > > how much they say they have in their own
          > > lives. Usually it amounts to very little.
          > >
          > > BUT to gain esteem in their own eyes for
          > > dreams unmet, they tell others that they
          > > were spiritually advanced enough to choose
          > > the conditions of their own rebirth. It really
          > > is an excuse in delusion." [end]
          > >
          > > ME: Isn't that what Klemp has done? Isn't
          > > that what Paul and Darwin did as well?
          > > True, there are a lot of delusional H.I.'s,
          > > but can one blame them when they emulate
          > > Klemp? The Catch-22 is that even though
          > > Klemp's warning is put into print it won't
          > > matter. The delusion is so thick and encrusted
          > > that neither Klemp or his H.I.s will recognize
          > > it! Delusion protects them (and their egos)
          > > from the Truth. If anyone has an "exalted
          > > view" of who they think they are it's the
          > > fake Mahanta/Spiritual Master Klemp! LOL!
          > > It's the blind leading the blind!
          > >
          > > Prometheus
          > >
          > > eckchains wrote:
          > > Parents and society are responsible for nurturing and raising their children
          > > with compassion and non abusively. It is an absurd New Age belief that
          > children
          > > choose their parents. Children do not have that choice. Abused children often
          > > feel responsible for bad parenting, and are soooo much better off if the
          > parents
          > > are there for them and doing the best they can without being authoritarian or
          > > neglectful. Psychological studies bear this out
          > >
          > > I heard on the radio that it is even stated in the Bible and other idiotic
          > > religious texts, that those who do not "honor" their parents should be put to
          > > death. Children aren't property. And some parents should be in prison, IMHO.
          > >
          > > Non eckster ; )
          > >
          > >
          > > prometheus wrote:
          > >
          > > > Q: "Several times in the last few
          > > > days I have heard different Eckists,
          > > > an H.I. included, talk about how
          > > > people, as Soul, choose their parents
          > > > and the circumstances into which
          > > > they will be born. Most of the chelas
          > > > in my area seem to subscribe to
          > > > this belief. My understanding is that
          > > > some Souls have worked out their
          > > > karma enough to have earned the
          > > > right to choose for themselves but
          > > > that maybe not all people or even
          > > > all Eckists fit into this category.
          > > >
          > > > One night in the dream state, I was
          > > > shown what occurred before I was
          > > > born into this lifetime. I was before
          > > > the Lords of Karma. They told me
          > > > what the conditions would be for the
          > > > first eighteen years of this lifetime.
          > > > I did not have a choice in the matter.
          > > > I would appreciate any clarity or
          > > > insights you could give me about
          > > > this aspect of the ECK teachings."
          > > >
          > > > ME: Before giving Klemp's response
          > > > does anyone else want to comment
          > > > and give their opinions. Since Klemp
          > > > had issues with his father and didn't
          > > > chose to attend his father's funeral
          > > > or comfort his mother from her grief
          > > > his response to this topic will be more
          > > > bias. What would be a balanced and
          > > > detached response to this Lords of
          > > > Karma issue on a Soul level?
          > > >
          > > > Prometheus
          >
        • prometheus_973
          Hello Non eckster and All, Before I forget, would you mind commenting on Klemp s front page article of the June 2011 H.I. Letter (Klemp gives a psychic
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 12, 2011
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            Hello Non eckster and All,
            Before I forget, would you mind commenting
            on Klemp's front page article of the June 2011
            H.I. Letter (Klemp gives a psychic reading).

            Yes, Klemp seems very aloof but then again
            he's greater than God, who is a 4th plane deity,
            according to HK's Autobiography (p. 385) and
            according to Twitchell's Shariyat. It's kind of
            counter productive to tell Eckists not to worship
            him since he claims to be higher than the "God"
            (by whatever name) that other religions and
            millions, if not billions, of people pray to and
            worship.

            Yes, Klemp states that he learned "How to
            play the game" in order to be released early
            when locked up in a mental institution due
            to his ECK Master/bridge-tender delusions,
            suicide attempt and airport strip tease. Later,
            while working at the ESC in Menlo Park Klemp,
            again, played his game of deception but this
            time it was played upon Darwin in order to
            be chosen as a non-threatening replacement
            LEM. Darwin trusted Klemp but because of
            some behind-the-scenes disagreements due
            to poor business choices and a lack of ethics
            Darwin was kicked to the curb. The Lack of
            compassion, forgiveness, love and empathy
            seem to be long-time personality traits of
            Klemp's.

            FYI: All Eckists should read Klemp's 1987
            book "Soul Travelers of the Far Country."
            Klemp conveniently omitted much key info
            given in this book when he rewrote it for
            his Autobiography. Chapter 7 is really good
            and tells about that Sound Proof (no Sound)
            Dark Room (no Light) where HK worked daily
            at the ESC and how he got Darwin to "hesitantly"
            meet with him there (twice) to discuss the
            transition. HK also admits to his frustration
            even after being given his 7th or 8th initiation
            and Marge saying, Why not be happy with
            being an Eck Master? Although, according
            to the Shariyat, only after the 12th can one
            be asked to become Eck Master.

            What's even more ironic is that there are
            hundreds of Eckists, mostly female, that
            could do a better job at running Eckankar
            than Klemp! But, females are excluded from
            the top spot because of some silly crap that
            Twitchell dreamed up. What's even more
            amazing is that these Eckankar women
            believe this stupid "negative atom" B.S.!
            Both Positive and Negative are all of the
            Eck in the lower planes. Therefore, it
            shouldn't matter... especially for Higher
            Initiates who have established their con
            in the Higher God Worlds of EK... correct?
            It's just stupid that these EK women have
            submitted themselves to, yet, another
            religion run by Males Only. Women do
            most of the work in Eckankar but will
            never sit on the throne, hence, even
            a male Eckist who is now a second initiate
            has the potential to far exceed ALL current
            or future female RESAs, 8th or 9th initiates.

            Prometheus


            "Non" eckchains wrote:
            >
            Hi Prometheus,

            Yes it does sound like there is a lot of lying and distortion. It just seems like Klemp is contemptuous about something. I have heard that other Cult leaders often were Bullies in childhood. Also, as you noted, who knows about those boy's religious Boarding Schools. Maybe there is also just some kind of Psychiatric problems as well, A penchant for getting naked in air ports and jumping off bridges, etc. He's already admitted having to lie to the Psychiatrist, right?

            Anytime there is this weird self-hate about sexuality it seems like all kinds of perverse manifestations occur. Religions always seem to equate "Purity" with virginity, which is ridiculous, especially when it seems like it is usually the women who have to be the most pure by being a virgin. Of course this never really fits with reality as a human biological being. Lust. Talk about cognitive dissonance. So much attention is placed on supposed negativity. It is so obvious as a control tactic. Don't feel anything like doubt or anger at the hypocritical lem.

            Non eckster ; )

            prometheus wrote:

            Hello Non eckster,
            I don't believe Klemp had a
            tough or an abusive childhood
            except for having to do farm
            chores, but that was expected
            from all farm kids. FYI, HK had
            an Older brother and a younger
            sister and brother as well. Thus,
            there was no "Virgin Birth" as
            required in Eckankar's first Holy
            Book the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
            Book One, Chapter 6.

            Klemp's father died (Oct. 1971)
            when he was around 30 years old.

            BTW- I always heard that Hitler
            had a charitable and protective
            mother and that his father died
            when he was a young boy. Then
            again, I can see why he lied about
            having it tough just as Klemp lies.
            But, it could be that this is just more
            delusional thinking and a means
            of coping which comes from an
            overprotective ego.

            As far as that All Boys Lutheran
            School that Klemp attended...
            it wasn't because little Harold
            was spiritual or was seeking God.
            He has admitted that he wanted
            to go because his cousin was
            attending... and he wanted to
            get away from having to do farm
            chores, especially, during those
            Wisconsin winters. But, remember
            too, HK also isolated himself from
            his siblings.


            The funny thing is that Twitchell
            (the first Mahanta) had something
            negative to say about these "All
            Boys Schools." In the Summer
            of 1971 Twitchell gave some
            interviews that were put into
            the book, "Difficulties Of Becoming
            The Living ECK Master." On pages
            46-48 the Mahanta/LEM gives
            this explanation and warning:

            "This is one reason we don't have
            ashrams in ECKANKAR. They can
            create unhealthy situations and
            individuals seldom have their own
            psychic space to breathe in. Now
            you see, the same thing occurs in
            seminaries of the Christian church.
            These Christian seminaries, when
            you're training young boys to grow
            up, they are looking for all the
            things which will explain to them
            manhood or the problems of life.
            It can create sexual aberrations.
            ... you can walk around the corner
            of one of these ashrams or the
            monasteries and find the boys there
            abusing themselves... this seems
            to be part of the animal nature in
            which Indians in the religious orders
            allow these young people to do. I
            had always been surprised to see
            that myself, no matter how much
            I had become accustomed to chancing
            upon such a thing."

            In the next sentence (page 48) Twitch
            mentions leaving India and that he
            was about 16 years old at this time...
            liar! Even Klemp states on Eckankar.org
            that at age 27, in 1935, that Twitchell
            had never travelled far from home
            when he was "exaggerating" and
            "twisting facts" to get into "Who's
            Who in Kentucky." Interesting, that
            in 1971, that Twichell (the Mahanta)
            is still lying about his past. But, what
            does this really tell us? It tells us that
            Gross and Klemp merely inherited
            an organization/church (scam) built
            upon a foundation of lies. Klemp is
            both the protector and perpetrator
            of lies, distortion, and delusion.

            Anyway, it seems that Twitchell and
            Klemp have an opposite view on the
            subject of masturbation. Klemp
            recently commented on the subject
            and said that it was okay. However,
            IMO, the act itself fulfills (natural)
            desires of lust. It's quite a quagmire
            for the Mahanta and Spiritual Leader
            of Eckankar and Modern Prophet
            (Klemp) to take such a position.
            Does one repress these innate desires
            and become frustrated, or become
            a "spiritual" hypocrite by saying one
            thing and doing another? Or, is one
            able to take the, supposedly, higher
            "spiritual" path and remain chaste
            and devoid of "bad" lower plane
            desires and attachments? Apparently
            Klemp is saying no!

            Prometheus


            eckchains wrote:
            Interesting history of Klemp's childhood. Seems odd that his father would pay
            for him to go to a religious boarding school. But who knows for sure the
            dynamics involved. We don't know what kind of discipline was used. Shaming and
            and physical abuse can make a child grow up to be a sociopath and they learn not
            to really feel empathy, often mistreating their own children. Of course it is
            not 100%. There are also examples of those who had a stronger constitution and
            eventually learned how to change and be a better person instead, but usually it
            requires a willingness to accept help, whatever the form.

            When I watch Klemp he seems to always have this superior, contemptuous look in
            his eyes, no matter how big the intermittent practiced grin. It is reported that
            Hitler was beaten on almost a daily basis, and bragged about how much of a
            beating he could take without crying. He was a gang leader in his teens, shall
            we say the worst kind of Cult leader, ruthless.

            It is also interesting that Klemp has a ruthless quality to his personality.
            When he fought it out with Gross in court over who was the real eck master or
            mahanta he eventually claimed absolute power over his little eck kingdom. H.I.
            eckists I know have that same ruthless quality, in that they are ready to go to
            war if you ask too many questions about their precious eckankar. They are also
            big hypocrites. Anyone want some eck love?

            Non eckster ; )

            prometheus wrote:
            >
            > Hello Non eckster and All,
            > I always thought that a combination
            > of karma and choice were available
            > to Souls who were future Eckists in
            > this lifetime. After all, it has been stated
            > that we had been EK chelas in past lives.
            > Therefore, the Mahanta would intervene
            > for us and by-pass the Lords of Karma,
            > and, if we had advanced far enough that
            > we would be permitted to have some
            > choices as well.
            >
            >
            > Here's Klemp's response:
            > "Your experience was much like mine
            > too. I would have thought long and hard
            > before engaging in another lifetime with
            > Dad for a parent. He had many good points,
            > to be sure. However, as I left childhood,
            > we were increasingly uncomfortable around
            > each other."
            >
            > ME: Klemp is not being completely honest.
            > Little Harold was uncomfortable around most
            > people, especially, adults. He criticized and
            > judged people constantly and had a negative
            > attitude. Klemp chose to be sent to an all boys
            > Lutheran school and this was a financial burden
            > to his family, but instead of appreciation he gave
            > them disdain. And, little Harold only contributed
            > to farm chores during the Summer, thus, putting
            > more strain on other family members. HK's unloving
            > attitude and lack of empathy is transparent.
            >
            > HK: "People often have an exalted view of
            > how much they say they have in their own
            > lives. Usually it amounts to very little.
            >
            > BUT to gain esteem in their own eyes for
            > dreams unmet, they tell others that they
            > were spiritually advanced enough to choose
            > the conditions of their own rebirth. It really
            > is an excuse in delusion." [end]
            >
            > ME: Isn't that what Klemp has done? Isn't
            > that what Paul and Darwin did as well?
            > True, there are a lot of delusional H.I.'s,
            > but can one blame them when they emulate
            > Klemp? The Catch-22 is that even though
            > Klemp's warning is put into print it won't
            > matter. The delusion is so thick and encrusted
            > that neither Klemp or his H.I.s will recognize
            > it! Delusion protects them (and their egos)
            > from the Truth. If anyone has an "exalted
            > view" of who they think they are it's the
            > fake Mahanta/Spiritual Master Klemp! LOL!
            > It's the blind leading the blind!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            > eckchains wrote:
            > Parents and society are responsible for nurturing and raising their children
            > with compassion and non abusively. It is an absurd New Age belief that
            children
            > choose their parents. Children do not have that choice. Abused children often
            > feel responsible for bad parenting, and are soooo much better off if the
            parents
            > are there for them and doing the best they can without being authoritarian or
            > neglectful. Psychological studies bear this out
            >
            > I heard on the radio that it is even stated in the Bible and other idiotic
            > religious texts, that those who do not "honor" their parents should be put to
            > death. Children aren't property. And some parents should be in prison, IMHO.
            >
            > Non eckster ; )
            >
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            >
            > > Q: "Several times in the last few
            > > days I have heard different Eckists,
            > > an H.I. included, talk about how
            > > people, as Soul, choose their parents
            > > and the circumstances into which
            > > they will be born. Most of the chelas
            > > in my area seem to subscribe to
            > > this belief. My understanding is that
            > > some Souls have worked out their
            > > karma enough to have earned the
            > > right to choose for themselves but
            > > that maybe not all people or even
            > > all Eckists fit into this category.
            > >
            > > One night in the dream state, I was
            > > shown what occurred before I was
            > > born into this lifetime. I was before
            > > the Lords of Karma. They told me
            > > what the conditions would be for the
            > > first eighteen years of this lifetime.
            > > I did not have a choice in the matter.
            > > I would appreciate any clarity or
            > > insights you could give me about
            > > this aspect of the ECK teachings."
            > >
            > > ME: Before giving Klemp's response
            > > does anyone else want to comment
            > > and give their opinions. Since Klemp
            > > had issues with his father and didn't
            > > chose to attend his father's funeral
            > > or comfort his mother from her grief
            > > his response to this topic will be more
            > > bias. What would be a balanced and
            > > detached response to this Lords of
            > > Karma issue on a Soul level?
            > >
            > > Prometheus
          • Non
            Hi Prometheus, I believe the information about Hitler is probably correct, although I don t have all the details right now at my fingertips. Alice Miller wrote
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 12, 2011
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              Hi Prometheus,

              I believe the information about Hitler is probably correct, although I don't have all the details right now at my fingertips. Alice Miller wrote extensively about child abuse in her book "For Your Own Good" and in particular about Hitler and Stalin.

              Here's a web site I found:

              "The Führer once told his secretary that during one of the regular beatings given him by his father he was able to stop crying, to feel nothing, and even to count the thirty-two blows he received."

              http://www.naturalchild.org/alice_miller/adolf_hitler.html

              The type of treatment children received in the culture of those times was pretty bad and is geared toward Authoritarianism and Hierarchy. Klemp as the Sole Ultimate Leader of eckankar is really very similar, except that we live in a Democracy that over time has developed laws that restrict the use of overt violent force. I suspect that those who will never leave eckankar have some kind of similar need to have an Authoritarian Leader, lem/mahanta. Actually, Klemp runs a Theocracy.

              Non eckster

              --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello Non eckster,
              > I don't believe Klemp had a
              > tough or an abusive childhood
              > except for having to do farm
              > chores, but that was expected
              > from all farm kids. FYI, HK had
              > an Older brother and a younger
              > sister and brother as well. Thus,
              > there was no "Virgin Birth" as
              > required in Eckankar's first Holy
              > Book the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
              > Book One, Chapter 6.
              >
              > Klemp's father died (Oct. 1971)
              > when he was around 30 years old.
              >
              > BTW- I always heard that Hitler
              > had a charitable and protective
              > mother and that his father died
              > when he was a young boy. Then
              > again, I can see why he lied about
              > having it tough just as Klemp lies.
              > But, it could be that this is just more
              > delusional thinking and a means
              > of coping which comes from an
              > overprotective ego.
              >
              > As far as that All Boys Lutheran
              > School that Klemp attended...
              > it wasn't because little Harold
              > was spiritual or was seeking God.
              > He has admitted that he wanted
              > to go because his cousin was
              > attending... and he wanted to
              > get away from having to do farm
              > chores, especially, during those
              > Wisconsin winters. But, remember
              > too, HK also isolated himself from
              > his siblings.
              >
              >
              > The funny thing is that Twitchell
              > (the first Mahanta) had something
              > negative to say about these "All
              > Boys Schools." In the Summer
              > of 1971 Twitchell gave some
              > interviews that were put into
              > the book, "Difficulties Of Becoming
              > The Living ECK Master." On pages
              > 46-48 the Mahanta/LEM gives
              > this explanation and warning:
              >
              > "This is one reason we don't have
              > ashrams in ECKANKAR. They can
              > create unhealthy situations and
              > individuals seldom have their own
              > psychic space to breathe in. Now
              > you see, the same thing occurs in
              > seminaries of the Christian church.
              > These Christian seminaries, when
              > you're training young boys to grow
              > up, they are looking for all the
              > things which will explain to them
              > manhood or the problems of life.
              > It can create sexual aberrations.
              > ... you can walk around the corner
              > of one of these ashrams or the
              > monasteries and find the boys there
              > abusing themselves... this seems
              > to be part of the animal nature in
              > which Indians in the religious orders
              > allow these young people to do. I
              > had always been surprised to see
              > that myself, no matter how much
              > I had become accustomed to chancing
              > upon such a thing."
              >
              > In the next sentence (page 48) Twitch
              > mentions leaving India and that he
              > was about 16 years old at this time...
              > liar! Even Klemp states on Eckankar.org
              > that at age 27, in 1935, that Twitchell
              > had never travelled far from home
              > when he was "exaggerating" and
              > "twisting facts" to get into "Who's
              > Who in Kentucky." Interesting, that
              > in 1971, that Twichell (the Mahanta)
              > is still lying about his past. But, what
              > does this really tell us? It tells us that
              > Gross and Klemp merely inherited
              > an organization/church (scam) built
              > upon a foundation of lies. Klemp is
              > both the protector and perpetrator
              > of lies, distortion, and delusion.
              >
              > Anyway, it seems that Twitchell and
              > Klemp have an opposite view on the
              > subject of masturbation. Klemp
              > recently commented on the subject
              > and said that it was okay. However,
              > IMO, the act itself fulfills (natural)
              > desires of lust. It's quite a quagmire
              > for the Mahanta and Spiritual Leader
              > of Eckankar and Modern Prophet
              > (Klemp) to take such a position.
              > Does one repress these innate desires
              > and become frustrated, or become
              > a "spiritual" hypocrite by saying one
              > thing and doing another? Or, is one
              > able to take the, supposedly, higher
              > "spiritual" path and remain chaste
              > and devoid of "bad" lower plane
              > desires and attachments? Apparently
              > Klemp is saying no!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              >
              > eckchains wrote:
              > Interesting history of Klemp's childhood. Seems odd that his father would pay
              > for him to go to a religious boarding school. But who knows for sure the
              > dynamics involved. We don't know what kind of discipline was used. Shaming and
              > and physical abuse can make a child grow up to be a sociopath and they learn not
              > to really feel empathy, often mistreating their own children. Of course it is
              > not 100%. There are also examples of those who had a stronger constitution and
              > eventually learned how to change and be a better person instead, but usually it
              > requires a willingness to accept help, whatever the form.
              >
              > When I watch Klemp he seems to always have this superior, contemptuous look in
              > his eyes, no matter how big the intermittent practiced grin. It is reported that
              > Hitler was beaten on almost a daily basis, and bragged about how much of a
              > beating he could take without crying. He was a gang leader in his teens, shall
              > we say the worst kind of Cult leader, ruthless.
              >
              > It is also interesting that Klemp has a ruthless quality to his personality.
              > When he fought it out with Gross in court over who was the real eck master or
              > mahanta he eventually claimed absolute power over his little eck kingdom. H.I.
              > eckists I know have that same ruthless quality, in that they are ready to go to
              > war if you ask too many questions about their precious eckankar. They are also
              > big hypocrites. Anyone want some eck love?
              >
              > Non eckster ; )
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Non eckster and All,
              > > I always thought that a combination
              > > of karma and choice were available
              > > to Souls who were future Eckists in
              > > this lifetime. After all, it has been stated
              > > that we had been EK chelas in past lives.
              > > Therefore, the Mahanta would intervene
              > > for us and by-pass the Lords of Karma,
              > > and, if we had advanced far enough that
              > > we would be permitted to have some
              > > choices as well.
              > >
              > >
              > > Here's Klemp's response:
              > > "Your experience was much like mine
              > > too. I would have thought long and hard
              > > before engaging in another lifetime with
              > > Dad for a parent. He had many good points,
              > > to be sure. However, as I left childhood,
              > > we were increasingly uncomfortable around
              > > each other."
              > >
              > > ME: Klemp is not being completely honest.
              > > Little Harold was uncomfortable around most
              > > people, especially, adults. He criticized and
              > > judged people constantly and had a negative
              > > attitude. Klemp chose to be sent to an all boys
              > > Lutheran school and this was a financial burden
              > > to his family, but instead of appreciation he gave
              > > them disdain. And, little Harold only contributed
              > > to farm chores during the Summer, thus, putting
              > > more strain on other family members. HK's unloving
              > > attitude and lack of empathy is transparent.
              > >
              > > HK: "People often have an exalted view of
              > > how much they say they have in their own
              > > lives. Usually it amounts to very little.
              > >
              > > BUT to gain esteem in their own eyes for
              > > dreams unmet, they tell others that they
              > > were spiritually advanced enough to choose
              > > the conditions of their own rebirth. It really
              > > is an excuse in delusion." [end]
              > >
              > > ME: Isn't that what Klemp has done? Isn't
              > > that what Paul and Darwin did as well?
              > > True, there are a lot of delusional H.I.'s,
              > > but can one blame them when they emulate
              > > Klemp? The Catch-22 is that even though
              > > Klemp's warning is put into print it won't
              > > matter. The delusion is so thick and encrusted
              > > that neither Klemp or his H.I.s will recognize
              > > it! Delusion protects them (and their egos)
              > > from the Truth. If anyone has an "exalted
              > > view" of who they think they are it's the
              > > fake Mahanta/Spiritual Master Klemp! LOL!
              > > It's the blind leading the blind!
              > >
              > > Prometheus
              > >
              > > eckchains wrote:
              > > Parents and society are responsible for nurturing and raising their children
              > > with compassion and non abusively. It is an absurd New Age belief that
              > children
              > > choose their parents. Children do not have that choice. Abused children often
              > > feel responsible for bad parenting, and are soooo much better off if the
              > parents
              > > are there for them and doing the best they can without being authoritarian or
              > > neglectful. Psychological studies bear this out
              > >
              > > I heard on the radio that it is even stated in the Bible and other idiotic
              > > religious texts, that those who do not "honor" their parents should be put to
              > > death. Children aren't property. And some parents should be in prison, IMHO.
              > >
              > > Non eckster ; )
              > >
              > >
              > > prometheus wrote:
              > >
              > > > Q: "Several times in the last few
              > > > days I have heard different Eckists,
              > > > an H.I. included, talk about how
              > > > people, as Soul, choose their parents
              > > > and the circumstances into which
              > > > they will be born. Most of the chelas
              > > > in my area seem to subscribe to
              > > > this belief. My understanding is that
              > > > some Souls have worked out their
              > > > karma enough to have earned the
              > > > right to choose for themselves but
              > > > that maybe not all people or even
              > > > all Eckists fit into this category.
              > > >
              > > > One night in the dream state, I was
              > > > shown what occurred before I was
              > > > born into this lifetime. I was before
              > > > the Lords of Karma. They told me
              > > > what the conditions would be for the
              > > > first eighteen years of this lifetime.
              > > > I did not have a choice in the matter.
              > > > I would appreciate any clarity or
              > > > insights you could give me about
              > > > this aspect of the ECK teachings."
              > > >
              > > > ME: Before giving Klemp's response
              > > > does anyone else want to comment
              > > > and give their opinions. Since Klemp
              > > > had issues with his father and didn't
              > > > chose to attend his father's funeral
              > > > or comfort his mother from her grief
              > > > his response to this topic will be more
              > > > bias. What would be a balanced and
              > > > detached response to this Lords of
              > > > Karma issue on a Soul level?
              > > >
              > > > Prometheus
              >
            • prometheus_973
              Hello Non eckster, The info you found on Hitler sounds correct. I found the below info and it shows that he was 13 when his father died. BTW- True, Klemp has a
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 13, 2011
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                Hello Non eckster,
                The info you found on Hitler
                sounds correct. I found the
                below info and it shows that
                he was 13 when his father
                died.

                BTW- True, Klemp has a German
                heritage, but I'm fairly certain HK
                was not beaten any more than the
                rest of those of that generation...
                remember, "spare the rod, spoil
                the child?" And, let's not forget
                how Harold treated his only child,
                Marion, when he brought out an
                old push mower for her to repair
                if she wanted a green lawn to play
                on. She was around 10 years old
                at the time.

                "In the town of Leonding, Austria, on the bitterly cold morning of Saturday, January 3, 1903, Alois Hitler, 65, went out for a walk, stopping at a favorite inn where he sat down and asked for a glass of wine. He collapsed before the wine was brought to him and died within minutes from a lung hemorrhage. It was not the first one he had suffered.

                Young Adolf, now 13, broke down and cried when he saw his father's body laid out. His father's funeral mass in the small church at Leonding was well attended. A newspaper in nearby Linz published an obituary that included the following sentence: "The harsh words that sometimes fell from his lips could not belie the warm heart that beat under the rough exterior."

                For Adolf, there would be no more harsh words and no more arguing with his father, especially over his career choice. Hitler's father had insisted Adolf become a civil servant like himself. Young Hitler, however, had dreams of becoming a great artist. Now Hitler was free from the stern words and domineering authority of his father. In fact, young Adolf was now the male head of the household, a position of some importance in those days.

                Financially, his father had left the Hitler family fairly well provided for. Hitler's mother received half of her husband's monthly pension, plus death benefits. Adolf received a small amount each month, plus a small inheritance. The family also owned a house in Leonding which had been paid for mostly in cash.

                For convenience, young Hitler went to live at a boys' boarding house in Linz where he was attending the technical high school. This saved him the long daily commute from Leonding. On weekends, he went back home to his mother.

                Hitler was remembered by the woman who ran the boarding house as a nervous, awkward boy, who spent most of his time reading and drawing. Although Hitler loved to read, he was a lazy and uncooperative student in school.

                In Autumn 1903, when he returned to school after summer vacation, things got worse. Along with his poor grades in mathematics and French, Hitler behaved badly, knowing he was likely to fail. With no threat of discipline at home and disinterest shown by his school teachers, Hitler performed pranks and practical jokes aimed at the teachers he now disliked so much.

                Among Hitler's antics – giving contrary, insulting, argumentative answers to questions which upset the teacher and delighted the other boys who sometimes applauded him. With those boys, he also released cockroaches in the classroom, rearranged the furniture, and organized confusion in the classroom by doing the opposite of what the teacher said.

                Years later, even as Führer, Hitler liked to dwell on his schoolboy pranks and would recall them in detail to his top generals in the midst of waging a world war.

                It was only Hitler's history teacher, Dr. Leopold Pötsch, and his tales of heroic Germans from bygone eras who kept his interest and earned his respect. By his early teens, Hitler already had a keen interest in German nationalism along with a big interest in art and architecture.

                Young Hitler put all his hopes in the dream of becoming a great artist, especially as his prospects at the high school grew dimmer. Some of the teachers were also anxious to see Hitler thrown out of the school because of the trouble he caused.

                One teacher later recalled young Hitler as one who "reacted with ill-concealed hostility to advice or reproof; at the same time, he demanded of his fellow pupils their unqualified subservience, fancying himself in the role of leader, at the same time indulging in many a less innocuous prank of a kind not uncommon among immature youths."

                In May of 1904, at age 15, Adolf Hitler received the Catholic Sacrament of Confirmation in the Linz Cathedral. As a young boy he once entertained the idea of becoming a priest. But by the time he was confirmed he was bored and uninterested in his faith and hardly bothered to make the appropriate responses during the religious ceremony.

                Shortly after this, Hitler left the high school at Linz. He had been given a passing mark in French on a make-up exam on the condition that he not return to the school. In September 1904, he entered another high school, at Steyr, a small town 25 miles from Linz. He lived in a boarding house there, sharing a room with another boy. They sometimes amused themselves by shooting rats.

                Hitler got terrible marks his first semester at the new school, failing math, German, French, and even got a poor grade for handwriting. He improved during his second semester and was told he might even graduate if he first took a special make-up exam in the fall. During the summer, however, Hitler suffered from a bleeding lung ailment, an inherited medical problem.

                He regained his health and passed the exam in September 1905, and celebrated with fellow students by getting drunk. He wound up the next morning lying on the side of the road, awakened by a milkwoman. After that experience he swore off alcohol and never drank again.

                But Hitler could not bring himself to take the final exam for his diploma. Using poor health as his excuse, he left school at age sixteen never to return. From now on he would be self taught, continuing his heavy reading habits and interpreting what he read on his own, living in his own dreamy reality and creating his own sense of truth."

                Prometheus

                "Non" wrote:
                >
                > Hi Prometheus,
                >
                > I believe the information about Hitler is probably correct, although I don't have all the details right now at my fingertips. Alice Miller wrote extensively about child abuse in her book "For Your Own Good" and in particular about Hitler and Stalin.
                >
                > Here's a web site I found:
                >
                > "The Führer once told his secretary that during one of the regular beatings given him by his father he was able to stop crying, to feel nothing, and even to count the thirty-two blows he received."
                >
                > http://www.naturalchild.org/alice_miller/adolf_hitler.html
                >
                > The type of treatment children received in the culture of those times was pretty bad and is geared toward Authoritarianism and Hierarchy. Klemp as the Sole Ultimate Leader of eckankar is really very similar, except that we live in a Democracy that over time has developed laws that restrict the use of overt violent force. I suspect that those who will never leave eckankar have some kind of similar need to have an Authoritarian Leader, lem/mahanta. Actually, Klemp runs a Theocracy.
                >
                > Non eckster
                >
                > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Non eckster,
                > > I don't believe Klemp had a
                > > tough or an abusive childhood
                > > except for having to do farm
                > > chores, but that was expected
                > > from all farm kids. FYI, HK had
                > > an Older brother and a younger
                > > sister and brother as well. Thus,
                > > there was no "Virgin Birth" as
                > > required in Eckankar's first Holy
                > > Book the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
                > > Book One, Chapter 6.
                > >
                > > Klemp's father died (Oct. 1971)
                > > when he was around 30 years old.
                > >
                > > BTW- I always heard that Hitler
                > > had a charitable and protective
                > > mother and that his father died
                > > when he was a young boy. Then
                > > again, I can see why he lied about
                > > having it tough just as Klemp lies.
                > > But, it could be that this is just more
                > > delusional thinking and a means
                > > of coping which comes from an
                > > overprotective ego.
                > >
                > > As far as that All Boys Lutheran
                > > School that Klemp attended...
                > > it wasn't because little Harold
                > > was spiritual or was seeking God.
                > > He has admitted that he wanted
                > > to go because his cousin was
                > > attending... and he wanted to
                > > get away from having to do farm
                > > chores, especially, during those
                > > Wisconsin winters. But, remember
                > > too, HK also isolated himself from
                > > his siblings.
                > >
                > >
                > > The funny thing is that Twitchell
                > > (the first Mahanta) had something
                > > negative to say about these "All
                > > Boys Schools." In the Summer
                > > of 1971 Twitchell gave some
                > > interviews that were put into
                > > the book, "Difficulties Of Becoming
                > > The Living ECK Master." On pages
                > > 46-48 the Mahanta/LEM gives
                > > this explanation and warning:
                > >
                > > "This is one reason we don't have
                > > ashrams in ECKANKAR. They can
                > > create unhealthy situations and
                > > individuals seldom have their own
                > > psychic space to breathe in. Now
                > > you see, the same thing occurs in
                > > seminaries of the Christian church.
                > > These Christian seminaries, when
                > > you're training young boys to grow
                > > up, they are looking for all the
                > > things which will explain to them
                > > manhood or the problems of life.
                > > It can create sexual aberrations.
                > > ... you can walk around the corner
                > > of one of these ashrams or the
                > > monasteries and find the boys there
                > > abusing themselves... this seems
                > > to be part of the animal nature in
                > > which Indians in the religious orders
                > > allow these young people to do. I
                > > had always been surprised to see
                > > that myself, no matter how much
                > > I had become accustomed to chancing
                > > upon such a thing."
                > >
                > > In the next sentence (page 48) Twitch
                > > mentions leaving India and that he
                > > was about 16 years old at this time...
                > > liar! Even Klemp states on Eckankar.org
                > > that at age 27, in 1935, that Twitchell
                > > had never travelled far from home
                > > when he was "exaggerating" and
                > > "twisting facts" to get into "Who's
                > > Who in Kentucky." Interesting, that
                > > in 1971, that Twichell (the Mahanta)
                > > is still lying about his past. But, what
                > > does this really tell us? It tells us that
                > > Gross and Klemp merely inherited
                > > an organization/church (scam) built
                > > upon a foundation of lies. Klemp is
                > > both the protector and perpetrator
                > > of lies, distortion, and delusion.
                > >
                > > Anyway, it seems that Twitchell and
                > > Klemp have an opposite view on the
                > > subject of masturbation. Klemp
                > > recently commented on the subject
                > > and said that it was okay. However,
                > > IMO, the act itself fulfills (natural)
                > > desires of lust. It's quite a quagmire
                > > for the Mahanta and Spiritual Leader
                > > of Eckankar and Modern Prophet
                > > (Klemp) to take such a position.
                > > Does one repress these innate desires
                > > and become frustrated, or become
                > > a "spiritual" hypocrite by saying one
                > > thing and doing another? Or, is one
                > > able to take the, supposedly, higher
                > > "spiritual" path and remain chaste
                > > and devoid of "bad" lower plane
                > > desires and attachments? Apparently
                > > Klemp is saying no!
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > >
                > > eckchains wrote:
                > > Interesting history of Klemp's childhood. Seems odd that his father would pay
                > > for him to go to a religious boarding school. But who knows for sure the
                > > dynamics involved. We don't know what kind of discipline was used. Shaming and
                > > and physical abuse can make a child grow up to be a sociopath and they learn not
                > > to really feel empathy, often mistreating their own children. Of course it is
                > > not 100%. There are also examples of those who had a stronger constitution and
                > > eventually learned how to change and be a better person instead, but usually it
                > > requires a willingness to accept help, whatever the form.
                > >
                > > When I watch Klemp he seems to always have this superior, contemptuous look in
                > > his eyes, no matter how big the intermittent practiced grin. It is reported that
                > > Hitler was beaten on almost a daily basis, and bragged about how much of a
                > > beating he could take without crying. He was a gang leader in his teens, shall
                > > we say the worst kind of Cult leader, ruthless.
                > >
                > > It is also interesting that Klemp has a ruthless quality to his personality.
                > > When he fought it out with Gross in court over who was the real eck master or
                > > mahanta he eventually claimed absolute power over his little eck kingdom. H.I.
                > > eckists I know have that same ruthless quality, in that they are ready to go to
                > > war if you ask too many questions about their precious eckankar. They are also
                > > big hypocrites. Anyone want some eck love?
                > >
                > > Non eckster ; )
                > >
                > > prometheus wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Hello Non eckster and All,
                > > > I always thought that a combination
                > > > of karma and choice were available
                > > > to Souls who were future Eckists in
                > > > this lifetime. After all, it has been stated
                > > > that we had been EK chelas in past lives.
                > > > Therefore, the Mahanta would intervene
                > > > for us and by-pass the Lords of Karma,
                > > > and, if we had advanced far enough that
                > > > we would be permitted to have some
                > > > choices as well.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Here's Klemp's response:
                > > > "Your experience was much like mine
                > > > too. I would have thought long and hard
                > > > before engaging in another lifetime with
                > > > Dad for a parent. He had many good points,
                > > > to be sure. However, as I left childhood,
                > > > we were increasingly uncomfortable around
                > > > each other."
                > > >
                > > > ME: Klemp is not being completely honest.
                > > > Little Harold was uncomfortable around most
                > > > people, especially, adults. He criticized and
                > > > judged people constantly and had a negative
                > > > attitude. Klemp chose to be sent to an all boys
                > > > Lutheran school and this was a financial burden
                > > > to his family, but instead of appreciation he gave
                > > > them disdain. And, little Harold only contributed
                > > > to farm chores during the Summer, thus, putting
                > > > more strain on other family members. HK's unloving
                > > > attitude and lack of empathy is transparent.
                > > >
                > > > HK: "People often have an exalted view of
                > > > how much they say they have in their own
                > > > lives. Usually it amounts to very little.
                > > >
                > > > BUT to gain esteem in their own eyes for
                > > > dreams unmet, they tell others that they
                > > > were spiritually advanced enough to choose
                > > > the conditions of their own rebirth. It really
                > > > is an excuse in delusion." [end]
                > > >
                > > > ME: Isn't that what Klemp has done? Isn't
                > > > that what Paul and Darwin did as well?
                > > > True, there are a lot of delusional H.I.'s,
                > > > but can one blame them when they emulate
                > > > Klemp? The Catch-22 is that even though
                > > > Klemp's warning is put into print it won't
                > > > matter. The delusion is so thick and encrusted
                > > > that neither Klemp or his H.I.s will recognize
                > > > it! Delusion protects them (and their egos)
                > > > from the Truth. If anyone has an "exalted
                > > > view" of who they think they are it's the
                > > > fake Mahanta/Spiritual Master Klemp! LOL!
                > > > It's the blind leading the blind!
                > > >
                > > > Prometheus
                > > >
                > > > eckchains wrote:
                > > > Parents and society are responsible for nurturing and raising their children
                > > > with compassion and non abusively. It is an absurd New Age belief that
                > > children
                > > > choose their parents. Children do not have that choice. Abused children often
                > > > feel responsible for bad parenting, and are soooo much better off if the
                > > parents
                > > > are there for them and doing the best they can without being authoritarian or
                > > > neglectful. Psychological studies bear this out
                > > >
                > > > I heard on the radio that it is even stated in the Bible and other idiotic
                > > > religious texts, that those who do not "honor" their parents should be put to
                > > > death. Children aren't property. And some parents should be in prison, IMHO.
                > > >
                > > > Non eckster ; )
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > prometheus wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > Q: "Several times in the last few
                > > > > days I have heard different Eckists,
                > > > > an H.I. included, talk about how
                > > > > people, as Soul, choose their parents
                > > > > and the circumstances into which
                > > > > they will be born. Most of the chelas
                > > > > in my area seem to subscribe to
                > > > > this belief. My understanding is that
                > > > > some Souls have worked out their
                > > > > karma enough to have earned the
                > > > > right to choose for themselves but
                > > > > that maybe not all people or even
                > > > > all Eckists fit into this category.
                > > > >
                > > > > One night in the dream state, I was
                > > > > shown what occurred before I was
                > > > > born into this lifetime. I was before
                > > > > the Lords of Karma. They told me
                > > > > what the conditions would be for the
                > > > > first eighteen years of this lifetime.
                > > > > I did not have a choice in the matter.
                > > > > I would appreciate any clarity or
                > > > > insights you could give me about
                > > > > this aspect of the ECK teachings."
                > > > >
                > > > > ME: Before giving Klemp's response
                > > > > does anyone else want to comment
                > > > > and give their opinions. Since Klemp
                > > > > had issues with his father and didn't
                > > > > chose to attend his father's funeral
                > > > > or comfort his mother from her grief
                > > > > his response to this topic will be more
                > > > > bias. What would be a balanced and
                > > > > detached response to this Lords of
                > > > > Karma issue on a Soul level?
                > > > >
                > > > > Prometheus
                > >
                >
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