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Re: H.I. Letter- June 2011- Ask the Master

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  • Non
    Parents and society are responsible for nurturing and raising their children with compassion and non abusively. It is an absurd New Age belief that children
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 9, 2011
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      Parents and society are responsible for nurturing and raising their children with compassion and non abusively. It is an absurd New Age belief that children choose their parents. Children do not have that choice. Abused children often feel responsible for bad parenting, and are soooo much better off if the parents are there for them and doing the best they can without being authoritarian or neglectful. Psychological studies bear this out

      I heard on the radio that it is even stated in the Bible and other idiotic religious texts, that those who do not "honor" their parents should be put to death. Children aren't property. And some parents should be in prison, IMHO.

      Non eckster ; )

      --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
      >
      > Q: "Several times in the last few
      > days I have heard different Eckists,
      > an H.I. included, talk about how
      > people, as Soul, choose their parents
      > and the circumstances into which
      > they will be born. Most of the chelas
      > in my area seem to subscribe to
      > this belief. My understanding is that
      > some Souls have worked out their
      > karma enough to have earned the
      > right to choose for themselves but
      > that maybe not all people or even
      > all Eckists fit into this category.
      >
      > One night in the dream state, I was
      > shown what occurred before I was
      > born into this lifetime. I was before
      > the Lords of Karma. They told me
      > what the conditions would be for the
      > first eighteen years of this lifetime.
      > I did not have a choice in the matter.
      > I would appreciate any clarity or
      > insights you could give me about
      > this aspect of the ECK teachings."
      >
      > ME: Before giving Klemp's response
      > does anyone else want to comment
      > and give their opinions. Since Klemp
      > had issues with his father and didn't
      > chose to attend his father's funeral
      > or comfort his mother from her grief
      > his response to this topic will be more
      > bias. What would be a balanced and
      > detached response to this Lords of
      > Karma issue on a Soul level?
      >
      > Prometheus
      >
    • Non
      Interesting history of Klemp s childhood. Seems odd that his father would pay for him to go to a religious boarding school. But who knows for sure the dynamics
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 10, 2011
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        Interesting history of Klemp's childhood. Seems odd that his father would pay for him to go to a religious boarding school. But who knows for sure the dynamics involved. We don't know what kind of discipline was used. Shaming and and physical abuse can make a child grow up to be a sociopath and they learn not to really feel empathy, often mistreating their own children. Of course it is not 100%. There are also examples of those who had a stronger constitution and eventually learned how to change and be a better person instead, but usually it requires a willingness to accept help, whatever the form.

        When I watch Klemp he seems to always have this superior, contemptuous look in his eyes, no matter how big the intermittent practiced grin. It is reported that Hitler was beaten on almost a daily basis, and bragged about how much of a beating he could take without crying. He was a gang leader in his teens, shall we say the worst kind of Cult leader, ruthless.

        It is also interesting that Klemp has a ruthless quality to his personality. When he fought it out with Gross in court over who was the real eck master or mahanta he eventually claimed absolute power over his little eck kingdom. H.I. eckists I know have that same ruthless quality, in that they are ready to go to war if you ask too many questions about their precious eckankar. They are also big hypocrites. Anyone want some eck love?

        Non eckster ; )

        --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hello Non eckster and All,
        > I always thought that a combination
        > of karma and choice were available
        > to Souls who were future Eckists in
        > this lifetime. After all, it has been stated
        > that we had been EK chelas in past lives.
        > Therefore, the Mahanta would intervene
        > for us and by-pass the Lords of Karma,
        > and, if we had advanced far enough that
        > we would be permitted to have some
        > choices as well.
        >
        >
        > Here's Klemp's response:
        > "Your experience was much like mine
        > too. I would have thought long and hard
        > before engaging in another lifetime with
        > Dad for a parent. He had many good points,
        > to be sure. However, as I left childhood,
        > we were increasingly uncomfortable around
        > each other."
        >
        > ME: Klemp is not being completely honest.
        > Little Harold was uncomfortable around most
        > people, especially, adults. He criticized and
        > judged people constantly and had a negative
        > attitude. Klemp chose to be sent to an all boys
        > Lutheran school and this was a financial burden
        > to his family, but instead of appreciation he gave
        > them disdain. And, little Harold only contributed
        > to farm chores during the Summer, thus, putting
        > more strain on other family members. HK's unloving
        > attitude and lack of empathy is transparent.
        >
        > HK: "People often have an exalted view of
        > how much they say they have in their own
        > lives. Usually it amounts to very little.
        >
        > BUT to gain esteem in their own eyes for
        > dreams unmet, they tell others that they
        > were spiritually advanced enough to choose
        > the conditions of their own rebirth. It really
        > is an excuse in delusion." [end]
        >
        > ME: Isn't that what Klemp has done? Isn't
        > that what Paul and Darwin did as well?
        > True, there are a lot of delusional H.I.'s,
        > but can one blame them when they emulate
        > Klemp? The Catch-22 is that even though
        > Klemp's warning is put into print it won't
        > matter. The delusion is so thick and encrusted
        > that neither Klemp or his H.I.s will recognize
        > it! Delusion protects them (and their egos)
        > from the Truth. If anyone has an "exalted
        > view" of who they think they are it's the
        > fake Mahanta/Spiritual Master Klemp! LOL!
        > It's the blind leading the blind!
        >
        > Prometheus
        >
        > eckchains wrote:
        > Parents and society are responsible for nurturing and raising their children
        > with compassion and non abusively. It is an absurd New Age belief that children
        > choose their parents. Children do not have that choice. Abused children often
        > feel responsible for bad parenting, and are soooo much better off if the parents
        > are there for them and doing the best they can without being authoritarian or
        > neglectful. Psychological studies bear this out
        >
        > I heard on the radio that it is even stated in the Bible and other idiotic
        > religious texts, that those who do not "honor" their parents should be put to
        > death. Children aren't property. And some parents should be in prison, IMHO.
        >
        > Non eckster ; )
        >
        >
        > prometheus wrote:
        >
        > > Q: "Several times in the last few
        > > days I have heard different Eckists,
        > > an H.I. included, talk about how
        > > people, as Soul, choose their parents
        > > and the circumstances into which
        > > they will be born. Most of the chelas
        > > in my area seem to subscribe to
        > > this belief. My understanding is that
        > > some Souls have worked out their
        > > karma enough to have earned the
        > > right to choose for themselves but
        > > that maybe not all people or even
        > > all Eckists fit into this category.
        > >
        > > One night in the dream state, I was
        > > shown what occurred before I was
        > > born into this lifetime. I was before
        > > the Lords of Karma. They told me
        > > what the conditions would be for the
        > > first eighteen years of this lifetime.
        > > I did not have a choice in the matter.
        > > I would appreciate any clarity or
        > > insights you could give me about
        > > this aspect of the ECK teachings."
        > >
        > > ME: Before giving Klemp's response
        > > does anyone else want to comment
        > > and give their opinions. Since Klemp
        > > had issues with his father and didn't
        > > chose to attend his father's funeral
        > > or comfort his mother from her grief
        > > his response to this topic will be more
        > > bias. What would be a balanced and
        > > detached response to this Lords of
        > > Karma issue on a Soul level?
        > >
        > > Prometheus
        >
      • prometheus_973
        Hello Non eckster, I don t believe Klemp had a tough or an abusive childhood except for having to do farm chores, but that was expected from all farm kids.
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 11, 2011
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          Hello Non eckster,
          I don't believe Klemp had a
          tough or an abusive childhood
          except for having to do farm
          chores, but that was expected
          from all farm kids. FYI, HK had
          an Older brother and a younger
          sister and brother as well. Thus,
          there was no "Virgin Birth" as
          required in Eckankar's first Holy
          Book the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
          Book One, Chapter 6.

          Klemp's father died (Oct. 1971)
          when he was around 30 years old.

          BTW- I always heard that Hitler
          had a charitable and protective
          mother and that his father died
          when he was a young boy. Then
          again, I can see why he lied about
          having it tough just as Klemp lies.
          But, it could be that this is just more
          delusional thinking and a means
          of coping which comes from an
          overprotective ego.

          As far as that All Boys Lutheran
          School that Klemp attended...
          it wasn't because little Harold
          was spiritual or was seeking God.
          He has admitted that he wanted
          to go because his cousin was
          attending... and he wanted to
          get away from having to do farm
          chores, especially, during those
          Wisconsin winters. But, remember
          too, HK also isolated himself from
          his siblings.


          The funny thing is that Twitchell
          (the first Mahanta) had something
          negative to say about these "All
          Boys Schools." In the Summer
          of 1971 Twitchell gave some
          interviews that were put into
          the book, "Difficulties Of Becoming
          The Living ECK Master." On pages
          46-48 the Mahanta/LEM gives
          this explanation and warning:

          "This is one reason we don't have
          ashrams in ECKANKAR. They can
          create unhealthy situations and
          individuals seldom have their own
          psychic space to breathe in. Now
          you see, the same thing occurs in
          seminaries of the Christian church.
          These Christian seminaries, when
          you're training young boys to grow
          up, they are looking for all the
          things which will explain to them
          manhood or the problems of life.
          It can create sexual aberrations.
          ... you can walk around the corner
          of one of these ashrams or the
          monasteries and find the boys there
          abusing themselves... this seems
          to be part of the animal nature in
          which Indians in the religious orders
          allow these young people to do. I
          had always been surprised to see
          that myself, no matter how much
          I had become accustomed to chancing
          upon such a thing."

          In the next sentence (page 48) Twitch
          mentions leaving India and that he
          was about 16 years old at this time...
          liar! Even Klemp states on Eckankar.org
          that at age 27, in 1935, that Twitchell
          had never travelled far from home
          when he was "exaggerating" and
          "twisting facts" to get into "Who's
          Who in Kentucky." Interesting, that
          in 1971, that Twichell (the Mahanta)
          is still lying about his past. But, what
          does this really tell us? It tells us that
          Gross and Klemp merely inherited
          an organization/church (scam) built
          upon a foundation of lies. Klemp is
          both the protector and perpetrator
          of lies, distortion, and delusion.

          Anyway, it seems that Twitchell and
          Klemp have an opposite view on the
          subject of masturbation. Klemp
          recently commented on the subject
          and said that it was okay. However,
          IMO, the act itself fulfills (natural)
          desires of lust. It's quite a quagmire
          for the Mahanta and Spiritual Leader
          of Eckankar and Modern Prophet
          (Klemp) to take such a position.
          Does one repress these innate desires
          and become frustrated, or become
          a "spiritual" hypocrite by saying one
          thing and doing another? Or, is one
          able to take the, supposedly, higher
          "spiritual" path and remain chaste
          and devoid of "bad" lower plane
          desires and attachments? Apparently
          Klemp is saying no!

          Prometheus


          eckchains wrote:
          Interesting history of Klemp's childhood. Seems odd that his father would pay
          for him to go to a religious boarding school. But who knows for sure the
          dynamics involved. We don't know what kind of discipline was used. Shaming and
          and physical abuse can make a child grow up to be a sociopath and they learn not
          to really feel empathy, often mistreating their own children. Of course it is
          not 100%. There are also examples of those who had a stronger constitution and
          eventually learned how to change and be a better person instead, but usually it
          requires a willingness to accept help, whatever the form.

          When I watch Klemp he seems to always have this superior, contemptuous look in
          his eyes, no matter how big the intermittent practiced grin. It is reported that
          Hitler was beaten on almost a daily basis, and bragged about how much of a
          beating he could take without crying. He was a gang leader in his teens, shall
          we say the worst kind of Cult leader, ruthless.

          It is also interesting that Klemp has a ruthless quality to his personality.
          When he fought it out with Gross in court over who was the real eck master or
          mahanta he eventually claimed absolute power over his little eck kingdom. H.I.
          eckists I know have that same ruthless quality, in that they are ready to go to
          war if you ask too many questions about their precious eckankar. They are also
          big hypocrites. Anyone want some eck love?

          Non eckster ; )

          prometheus wrote:
          >
          > Hello Non eckster and All,
          > I always thought that a combination
          > of karma and choice were available
          > to Souls who were future Eckists in
          > this lifetime. After all, it has been stated
          > that we had been EK chelas in past lives.
          > Therefore, the Mahanta would intervene
          > for us and by-pass the Lords of Karma,
          > and, if we had advanced far enough that
          > we would be permitted to have some
          > choices as well.
          >
          >
          > Here's Klemp's response:
          > "Your experience was much like mine
          > too. I would have thought long and hard
          > before engaging in another lifetime with
          > Dad for a parent. He had many good points,
          > to be sure. However, as I left childhood,
          > we were increasingly uncomfortable around
          > each other."
          >
          > ME: Klemp is not being completely honest.
          > Little Harold was uncomfortable around most
          > people, especially, adults. He criticized and
          > judged people constantly and had a negative
          > attitude. Klemp chose to be sent to an all boys
          > Lutheran school and this was a financial burden
          > to his family, but instead of appreciation he gave
          > them disdain. And, little Harold only contributed
          > to farm chores during the Summer, thus, putting
          > more strain on other family members. HK's unloving
          > attitude and lack of empathy is transparent.
          >
          > HK: "People often have an exalted view of
          > how much they say they have in their own
          > lives. Usually it amounts to very little.
          >
          > BUT to gain esteem in their own eyes for
          > dreams unmet, they tell others that they
          > were spiritually advanced enough to choose
          > the conditions of their own rebirth. It really
          > is an excuse in delusion." [end]
          >
          > ME: Isn't that what Klemp has done? Isn't
          > that what Paul and Darwin did as well?
          > True, there are a lot of delusional H.I.'s,
          > but can one blame them when they emulate
          > Klemp? The Catch-22 is that even though
          > Klemp's warning is put into print it won't
          > matter. The delusion is so thick and encrusted
          > that neither Klemp or his H.I.s will recognize
          > it! Delusion protects them (and their egos)
          > from the Truth. If anyone has an "exalted
          > view" of who they think they are it's the
          > fake Mahanta/Spiritual Master Klemp! LOL!
          > It's the blind leading the blind!
          >
          > Prometheus
          >
          > eckchains wrote:
          > Parents and society are responsible for nurturing and raising their children
          > with compassion and non abusively. It is an absurd New Age belief that
          children
          > choose their parents. Children do not have that choice. Abused children often
          > feel responsible for bad parenting, and are soooo much better off if the
          parents
          > are there for them and doing the best they can without being authoritarian or
          > neglectful. Psychological studies bear this out
          >
          > I heard on the radio that it is even stated in the Bible and other idiotic
          > religious texts, that those who do not "honor" their parents should be put to
          > death. Children aren't property. And some parents should be in prison, IMHO.
          >
          > Non eckster ; )
          >
          >
          > prometheus wrote:
          >
          > > Q: "Several times in the last few
          > > days I have heard different Eckists,
          > > an H.I. included, talk about how
          > > people, as Soul, choose their parents
          > > and the circumstances into which
          > > they will be born. Most of the chelas
          > > in my area seem to subscribe to
          > > this belief. My understanding is that
          > > some Souls have worked out their
          > > karma enough to have earned the
          > > right to choose for themselves but
          > > that maybe not all people or even
          > > all Eckists fit into this category.
          > >
          > > One night in the dream state, I was
          > > shown what occurred before I was
          > > born into this lifetime. I was before
          > > the Lords of Karma. They told me
          > > what the conditions would be for the
          > > first eighteen years of this lifetime.
          > > I did not have a choice in the matter.
          > > I would appreciate any clarity or
          > > insights you could give me about
          > > this aspect of the ECK teachings."
          > >
          > > ME: Before giving Klemp's response
          > > does anyone else want to comment
          > > and give their opinions. Since Klemp
          > > had issues with his father and didn't
          > > chose to attend his father's funeral
          > > or comfort his mother from her grief
          > > his response to this topic will be more
          > > bias. What would be a balanced and
          > > detached response to this Lords of
          > > Karma issue on a Soul level?
          > >
          > > Prometheus
        • Non
          Hi Prometheus, Yes it does sound like there is a lot of lying and distortion. It just seems like Klemp is contemptuous about something. I have heard that other
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 11, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Prometheus,

            Yes it does sound like there is a lot of lying and distortion. It just seems like Klemp is contemptuous about something. I have heard that other Cult leaders often were Bullies in childhood. Also, as you noted, who knows about those boy's religious Boarding Schools. Maybe there is also just some kind of Psychiatric problems as well, A penchant for getting naked in air ports and jumping off bridges, etc. He's already admitted having to lie to the Psychiatrist, right?

            Anytime there is this weird self-hate about sexuality it seems like all kinds of perverse manifestations occur. Religions always seem to equate "Purity" with virginity, which is ridiculous, especially when it seems like it is usually the women who have to be the most pure by being a virgin. Of course this never really fits with reality as a human biological being. Lust. Talk about cognitive dissonance. So much attention is placed on supposed negativity. It is so obvious as a control tactic. Don't feel anything like doubt or anger at the hypocritical lem.

            Non eckster ; )

            --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Non eckster,
            > I don't believe Klemp had a
            > tough or an abusive childhood
            > except for having to do farm
            > chores, but that was expected
            > from all farm kids. FYI, HK had
            > an Older brother and a younger
            > sister and brother as well. Thus,
            > there was no "Virgin Birth" as
            > required in Eckankar's first Holy
            > Book the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
            > Book One, Chapter 6.
            >
            > Klemp's father died (Oct. 1971)
            > when he was around 30 years old.
            >
            > BTW- I always heard that Hitler
            > had a charitable and protective
            > mother and that his father died
            > when he was a young boy. Then
            > again, I can see why he lied about
            > having it tough just as Klemp lies.
            > But, it could be that this is just more
            > delusional thinking and a means
            > of coping which comes from an
            > overprotective ego.
            >
            > As far as that All Boys Lutheran
            > School that Klemp attended...
            > it wasn't because little Harold
            > was spiritual or was seeking God.
            > He has admitted that he wanted
            > to go because his cousin was
            > attending... and he wanted to
            > get away from having to do farm
            > chores, especially, during those
            > Wisconsin winters. But, remember
            > too, HK also isolated himself from
            > his siblings.
            >
            >
            > The funny thing is that Twitchell
            > (the first Mahanta) had something
            > negative to say about these "All
            > Boys Schools." In the Summer
            > of 1971 Twitchell gave some
            > interviews that were put into
            > the book, "Difficulties Of Becoming
            > The Living ECK Master." On pages
            > 46-48 the Mahanta/LEM gives
            > this explanation and warning:
            >
            > "This is one reason we don't have
            > ashrams in ECKANKAR. They can
            > create unhealthy situations and
            > individuals seldom have their own
            > psychic space to breathe in. Now
            > you see, the same thing occurs in
            > seminaries of the Christian church.
            > These Christian seminaries, when
            > you're training young boys to grow
            > up, they are looking for all the
            > things which will explain to them
            > manhood or the problems of life.
            > It can create sexual aberrations.
            > ... you can walk around the corner
            > of one of these ashrams or the
            > monasteries and find the boys there
            > abusing themselves... this seems
            > to be part of the animal nature in
            > which Indians in the religious orders
            > allow these young people to do. I
            > had always been surprised to see
            > that myself, no matter how much
            > I had become accustomed to chancing
            > upon such a thing."
            >
            > In the next sentence (page 48) Twitch
            > mentions leaving India and that he
            > was about 16 years old at this time...
            > liar! Even Klemp states on Eckankar.org
            > that at age 27, in 1935, that Twitchell
            > had never travelled far from home
            > when he was "exaggerating" and
            > "twisting facts" to get into "Who's
            > Who in Kentucky." Interesting, that
            > in 1971, that Twichell (the Mahanta)
            > is still lying about his past. But, what
            > does this really tell us? It tells us that
            > Gross and Klemp merely inherited
            > an organization/church (scam) built
            > upon a foundation of lies. Klemp is
            > both the protector and perpetrator
            > of lies, distortion, and delusion.
            >
            > Anyway, it seems that Twitchell and
            > Klemp have an opposite view on the
            > subject of masturbation. Klemp
            > recently commented on the subject
            > and said that it was okay. However,
            > IMO, the act itself fulfills (natural)
            > desires of lust. It's quite a quagmire
            > for the Mahanta and Spiritual Leader
            > of Eckankar and Modern Prophet
            > (Klemp) to take such a position.
            > Does one repress these innate desires
            > and become frustrated, or become
            > a "spiritual" hypocrite by saying one
            > thing and doing another? Or, is one
            > able to take the, supposedly, higher
            > "spiritual" path and remain chaste
            > and devoid of "bad" lower plane
            > desires and attachments? Apparently
            > Klemp is saying no!
            >
            > Prometheus
            >
            >
            > eckchains wrote:
            > Interesting history of Klemp's childhood. Seems odd that his father would pay
            > for him to go to a religious boarding school. But who knows for sure the
            > dynamics involved. We don't know what kind of discipline was used. Shaming and
            > and physical abuse can make a child grow up to be a sociopath and they learn not
            > to really feel empathy, often mistreating their own children. Of course it is
            > not 100%. There are also examples of those who had a stronger constitution and
            > eventually learned how to change and be a better person instead, but usually it
            > requires a willingness to accept help, whatever the form.
            >
            > When I watch Klemp he seems to always have this superior, contemptuous look in
            > his eyes, no matter how big the intermittent practiced grin. It is reported that
            > Hitler was beaten on almost a daily basis, and bragged about how much of a
            > beating he could take without crying. He was a gang leader in his teens, shall
            > we say the worst kind of Cult leader, ruthless.
            >
            > It is also interesting that Klemp has a ruthless quality to his personality.
            > When he fought it out with Gross in court over who was the real eck master or
            > mahanta he eventually claimed absolute power over his little eck kingdom. H.I.
            > eckists I know have that same ruthless quality, in that they are ready to go to
            > war if you ask too many questions about their precious eckankar. They are also
            > big hypocrites. Anyone want some eck love?
            >
            > Non eckster ; )
            >
            > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > Hello Non eckster and All,
            > > I always thought that a combination
            > > of karma and choice were available
            > > to Souls who were future Eckists in
            > > this lifetime. After all, it has been stated
            > > that we had been EK chelas in past lives.
            > > Therefore, the Mahanta would intervene
            > > for us and by-pass the Lords of Karma,
            > > and, if we had advanced far enough that
            > > we would be permitted to have some
            > > choices as well.
            > >
            > >
            > > Here's Klemp's response:
            > > "Your experience was much like mine
            > > too. I would have thought long and hard
            > > before engaging in another lifetime with
            > > Dad for a parent. He had many good points,
            > > to be sure. However, as I left childhood,
            > > we were increasingly uncomfortable around
            > > each other."
            > >
            > > ME: Klemp is not being completely honest.
            > > Little Harold was uncomfortable around most
            > > people, especially, adults. He criticized and
            > > judged people constantly and had a negative
            > > attitude. Klemp chose to be sent to an all boys
            > > Lutheran school and this was a financial burden
            > > to his family, but instead of appreciation he gave
            > > them disdain. And, little Harold only contributed
            > > to farm chores during the Summer, thus, putting
            > > more strain on other family members. HK's unloving
            > > attitude and lack of empathy is transparent.
            > >
            > > HK: "People often have an exalted view of
            > > how much they say they have in their own
            > > lives. Usually it amounts to very little.
            > >
            > > BUT to gain esteem in their own eyes for
            > > dreams unmet, they tell others that they
            > > were spiritually advanced enough to choose
            > > the conditions of their own rebirth. It really
            > > is an excuse in delusion." [end]
            > >
            > > ME: Isn't that what Klemp has done? Isn't
            > > that what Paul and Darwin did as well?
            > > True, there are a lot of delusional H.I.'s,
            > > but can one blame them when they emulate
            > > Klemp? The Catch-22 is that even though
            > > Klemp's warning is put into print it won't
            > > matter. The delusion is so thick and encrusted
            > > that neither Klemp or his H.I.s will recognize
            > > it! Delusion protects them (and their egos)
            > > from the Truth. If anyone has an "exalted
            > > view" of who they think they are it's the
            > > fake Mahanta/Spiritual Master Klemp! LOL!
            > > It's the blind leading the blind!
            > >
            > > Prometheus
            > >
            > > eckchains wrote:
            > > Parents and society are responsible for nurturing and raising their children
            > > with compassion and non abusively. It is an absurd New Age belief that
            > children
            > > choose their parents. Children do not have that choice. Abused children often
            > > feel responsible for bad parenting, and are soooo much better off if the
            > parents
            > > are there for them and doing the best they can without being authoritarian or
            > > neglectful. Psychological studies bear this out
            > >
            > > I heard on the radio that it is even stated in the Bible and other idiotic
            > > religious texts, that those who do not "honor" their parents should be put to
            > > death. Children aren't property. And some parents should be in prison, IMHO.
            > >
            > > Non eckster ; )
            > >
            > >
            > > prometheus wrote:
            > >
            > > > Q: "Several times in the last few
            > > > days I have heard different Eckists,
            > > > an H.I. included, talk about how
            > > > people, as Soul, choose their parents
            > > > and the circumstances into which
            > > > they will be born. Most of the chelas
            > > > in my area seem to subscribe to
            > > > this belief. My understanding is that
            > > > some Souls have worked out their
            > > > karma enough to have earned the
            > > > right to choose for themselves but
            > > > that maybe not all people or even
            > > > all Eckists fit into this category.
            > > >
            > > > One night in the dream state, I was
            > > > shown what occurred before I was
            > > > born into this lifetime. I was before
            > > > the Lords of Karma. They told me
            > > > what the conditions would be for the
            > > > first eighteen years of this lifetime.
            > > > I did not have a choice in the matter.
            > > > I would appreciate any clarity or
            > > > insights you could give me about
            > > > this aspect of the ECK teachings."
            > > >
            > > > ME: Before giving Klemp's response
            > > > does anyone else want to comment
            > > > and give their opinions. Since Klemp
            > > > had issues with his father and didn't
            > > > chose to attend his father's funeral
            > > > or comfort his mother from her grief
            > > > his response to this topic will be more
            > > > bias. What would be a balanced and
            > > > detached response to this Lords of
            > > > Karma issue on a Soul level?
            > > >
            > > > Prometheus
            >
          • prometheus_973
            Hello Non eckster and All, Before I forget, would you mind commenting on Klemp s front page article of the June 2011 H.I. Letter (Klemp gives a psychic
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 12, 2011
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              Hello Non eckster and All,
              Before I forget, would you mind commenting
              on Klemp's front page article of the June 2011
              H.I. Letter (Klemp gives a psychic reading).

              Yes, Klemp seems very aloof but then again
              he's greater than God, who is a 4th plane deity,
              according to HK's Autobiography (p. 385) and
              according to Twitchell's Shariyat. It's kind of
              counter productive to tell Eckists not to worship
              him since he claims to be higher than the "God"
              (by whatever name) that other religions and
              millions, if not billions, of people pray to and
              worship.

              Yes, Klemp states that he learned "How to
              play the game" in order to be released early
              when locked up in a mental institution due
              to his ECK Master/bridge-tender delusions,
              suicide attempt and airport strip tease. Later,
              while working at the ESC in Menlo Park Klemp,
              again, played his game of deception but this
              time it was played upon Darwin in order to
              be chosen as a non-threatening replacement
              LEM. Darwin trusted Klemp but because of
              some behind-the-scenes disagreements due
              to poor business choices and a lack of ethics
              Darwin was kicked to the curb. The Lack of
              compassion, forgiveness, love and empathy
              seem to be long-time personality traits of
              Klemp's.

              FYI: All Eckists should read Klemp's 1987
              book "Soul Travelers of the Far Country."
              Klemp conveniently omitted much key info
              given in this book when he rewrote it for
              his Autobiography. Chapter 7 is really good
              and tells about that Sound Proof (no Sound)
              Dark Room (no Light) where HK worked daily
              at the ESC and how he got Darwin to "hesitantly"
              meet with him there (twice) to discuss the
              transition. HK also admits to his frustration
              even after being given his 7th or 8th initiation
              and Marge saying, Why not be happy with
              being an Eck Master? Although, according
              to the Shariyat, only after the 12th can one
              be asked to become Eck Master.

              What's even more ironic is that there are
              hundreds of Eckists, mostly female, that
              could do a better job at running Eckankar
              than Klemp! But, females are excluded from
              the top spot because of some silly crap that
              Twitchell dreamed up. What's even more
              amazing is that these Eckankar women
              believe this stupid "negative atom" B.S.!
              Both Positive and Negative are all of the
              Eck in the lower planes. Therefore, it
              shouldn't matter... especially for Higher
              Initiates who have established their con
              in the Higher God Worlds of EK... correct?
              It's just stupid that these EK women have
              submitted themselves to, yet, another
              religion run by Males Only. Women do
              most of the work in Eckankar but will
              never sit on the throne, hence, even
              a male Eckist who is now a second initiate
              has the potential to far exceed ALL current
              or future female RESAs, 8th or 9th initiates.

              Prometheus


              "Non" eckchains wrote:
              >
              Hi Prometheus,

              Yes it does sound like there is a lot of lying and distortion. It just seems like Klemp is contemptuous about something. I have heard that other Cult leaders often were Bullies in childhood. Also, as you noted, who knows about those boy's religious Boarding Schools. Maybe there is also just some kind of Psychiatric problems as well, A penchant for getting naked in air ports and jumping off bridges, etc. He's already admitted having to lie to the Psychiatrist, right?

              Anytime there is this weird self-hate about sexuality it seems like all kinds of perverse manifestations occur. Religions always seem to equate "Purity" with virginity, which is ridiculous, especially when it seems like it is usually the women who have to be the most pure by being a virgin. Of course this never really fits with reality as a human biological being. Lust. Talk about cognitive dissonance. So much attention is placed on supposed negativity. It is so obvious as a control tactic. Don't feel anything like doubt or anger at the hypocritical lem.

              Non eckster ; )

              prometheus wrote:

              Hello Non eckster,
              I don't believe Klemp had a
              tough or an abusive childhood
              except for having to do farm
              chores, but that was expected
              from all farm kids. FYI, HK had
              an Older brother and a younger
              sister and brother as well. Thus,
              there was no "Virgin Birth" as
              required in Eckankar's first Holy
              Book the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
              Book One, Chapter 6.

              Klemp's father died (Oct. 1971)
              when he was around 30 years old.

              BTW- I always heard that Hitler
              had a charitable and protective
              mother and that his father died
              when he was a young boy. Then
              again, I can see why he lied about
              having it tough just as Klemp lies.
              But, it could be that this is just more
              delusional thinking and a means
              of coping which comes from an
              overprotective ego.

              As far as that All Boys Lutheran
              School that Klemp attended...
              it wasn't because little Harold
              was spiritual or was seeking God.
              He has admitted that he wanted
              to go because his cousin was
              attending... and he wanted to
              get away from having to do farm
              chores, especially, during those
              Wisconsin winters. But, remember
              too, HK also isolated himself from
              his siblings.


              The funny thing is that Twitchell
              (the first Mahanta) had something
              negative to say about these "All
              Boys Schools." In the Summer
              of 1971 Twitchell gave some
              interviews that were put into
              the book, "Difficulties Of Becoming
              The Living ECK Master." On pages
              46-48 the Mahanta/LEM gives
              this explanation and warning:

              "This is one reason we don't have
              ashrams in ECKANKAR. They can
              create unhealthy situations and
              individuals seldom have their own
              psychic space to breathe in. Now
              you see, the same thing occurs in
              seminaries of the Christian church.
              These Christian seminaries, when
              you're training young boys to grow
              up, they are looking for all the
              things which will explain to them
              manhood or the problems of life.
              It can create sexual aberrations.
              ... you can walk around the corner
              of one of these ashrams or the
              monasteries and find the boys there
              abusing themselves... this seems
              to be part of the animal nature in
              which Indians in the religious orders
              allow these young people to do. I
              had always been surprised to see
              that myself, no matter how much
              I had become accustomed to chancing
              upon such a thing."

              In the next sentence (page 48) Twitch
              mentions leaving India and that he
              was about 16 years old at this time...
              liar! Even Klemp states on Eckankar.org
              that at age 27, in 1935, that Twitchell
              had never travelled far from home
              when he was "exaggerating" and
              "twisting facts" to get into "Who's
              Who in Kentucky." Interesting, that
              in 1971, that Twichell (the Mahanta)
              is still lying about his past. But, what
              does this really tell us? It tells us that
              Gross and Klemp merely inherited
              an organization/church (scam) built
              upon a foundation of lies. Klemp is
              both the protector and perpetrator
              of lies, distortion, and delusion.

              Anyway, it seems that Twitchell and
              Klemp have an opposite view on the
              subject of masturbation. Klemp
              recently commented on the subject
              and said that it was okay. However,
              IMO, the act itself fulfills (natural)
              desires of lust. It's quite a quagmire
              for the Mahanta and Spiritual Leader
              of Eckankar and Modern Prophet
              (Klemp) to take such a position.
              Does one repress these innate desires
              and become frustrated, or become
              a "spiritual" hypocrite by saying one
              thing and doing another? Or, is one
              able to take the, supposedly, higher
              "spiritual" path and remain chaste
              and devoid of "bad" lower plane
              desires and attachments? Apparently
              Klemp is saying no!

              Prometheus


              eckchains wrote:
              Interesting history of Klemp's childhood. Seems odd that his father would pay
              for him to go to a religious boarding school. But who knows for sure the
              dynamics involved. We don't know what kind of discipline was used. Shaming and
              and physical abuse can make a child grow up to be a sociopath and they learn not
              to really feel empathy, often mistreating their own children. Of course it is
              not 100%. There are also examples of those who had a stronger constitution and
              eventually learned how to change and be a better person instead, but usually it
              requires a willingness to accept help, whatever the form.

              When I watch Klemp he seems to always have this superior, contemptuous look in
              his eyes, no matter how big the intermittent practiced grin. It is reported that
              Hitler was beaten on almost a daily basis, and bragged about how much of a
              beating he could take without crying. He was a gang leader in his teens, shall
              we say the worst kind of Cult leader, ruthless.

              It is also interesting that Klemp has a ruthless quality to his personality.
              When he fought it out with Gross in court over who was the real eck master or
              mahanta he eventually claimed absolute power over his little eck kingdom. H.I.
              eckists I know have that same ruthless quality, in that they are ready to go to
              war if you ask too many questions about their precious eckankar. They are also
              big hypocrites. Anyone want some eck love?

              Non eckster ; )

              prometheus wrote:
              >
              > Hello Non eckster and All,
              > I always thought that a combination
              > of karma and choice were available
              > to Souls who were future Eckists in
              > this lifetime. After all, it has been stated
              > that we had been EK chelas in past lives.
              > Therefore, the Mahanta would intervene
              > for us and by-pass the Lords of Karma,
              > and, if we had advanced far enough that
              > we would be permitted to have some
              > choices as well.
              >
              >
              > Here's Klemp's response:
              > "Your experience was much like mine
              > too. I would have thought long and hard
              > before engaging in another lifetime with
              > Dad for a parent. He had many good points,
              > to be sure. However, as I left childhood,
              > we were increasingly uncomfortable around
              > each other."
              >
              > ME: Klemp is not being completely honest.
              > Little Harold was uncomfortable around most
              > people, especially, adults. He criticized and
              > judged people constantly and had a negative
              > attitude. Klemp chose to be sent to an all boys
              > Lutheran school and this was a financial burden
              > to his family, but instead of appreciation he gave
              > them disdain. And, little Harold only contributed
              > to farm chores during the Summer, thus, putting
              > more strain on other family members. HK's unloving
              > attitude and lack of empathy is transparent.
              >
              > HK: "People often have an exalted view of
              > how much they say they have in their own
              > lives. Usually it amounts to very little.
              >
              > BUT to gain esteem in their own eyes for
              > dreams unmet, they tell others that they
              > were spiritually advanced enough to choose
              > the conditions of their own rebirth. It really
              > is an excuse in delusion." [end]
              >
              > ME: Isn't that what Klemp has done? Isn't
              > that what Paul and Darwin did as well?
              > True, there are a lot of delusional H.I.'s,
              > but can one blame them when they emulate
              > Klemp? The Catch-22 is that even though
              > Klemp's warning is put into print it won't
              > matter. The delusion is so thick and encrusted
              > that neither Klemp or his H.I.s will recognize
              > it! Delusion protects them (and their egos)
              > from the Truth. If anyone has an "exalted
              > view" of who they think they are it's the
              > fake Mahanta/Spiritual Master Klemp! LOL!
              > It's the blind leading the blind!
              >
              > Prometheus
              >
              > eckchains wrote:
              > Parents and society are responsible for nurturing and raising their children
              > with compassion and non abusively. It is an absurd New Age belief that
              children
              > choose their parents. Children do not have that choice. Abused children often
              > feel responsible for bad parenting, and are soooo much better off if the
              parents
              > are there for them and doing the best they can without being authoritarian or
              > neglectful. Psychological studies bear this out
              >
              > I heard on the radio that it is even stated in the Bible and other idiotic
              > religious texts, that those who do not "honor" their parents should be put to
              > death. Children aren't property. And some parents should be in prison, IMHO.
              >
              > Non eckster ; )
              >
              >
              > prometheus wrote:
              >
              > > Q: "Several times in the last few
              > > days I have heard different Eckists,
              > > an H.I. included, talk about how
              > > people, as Soul, choose their parents
              > > and the circumstances into which
              > > they will be born. Most of the chelas
              > > in my area seem to subscribe to
              > > this belief. My understanding is that
              > > some Souls have worked out their
              > > karma enough to have earned the
              > > right to choose for themselves but
              > > that maybe not all people or even
              > > all Eckists fit into this category.
              > >
              > > One night in the dream state, I was
              > > shown what occurred before I was
              > > born into this lifetime. I was before
              > > the Lords of Karma. They told me
              > > what the conditions would be for the
              > > first eighteen years of this lifetime.
              > > I did not have a choice in the matter.
              > > I would appreciate any clarity or
              > > insights you could give me about
              > > this aspect of the ECK teachings."
              > >
              > > ME: Before giving Klemp's response
              > > does anyone else want to comment
              > > and give their opinions. Since Klemp
              > > had issues with his father and didn't
              > > chose to attend his father's funeral
              > > or comfort his mother from her grief
              > > his response to this topic will be more
              > > bias. What would be a balanced and
              > > detached response to this Lords of
              > > Karma issue on a Soul level?
              > >
              > > Prometheus
            • Non
              Hi Prometheus, I believe the information about Hitler is probably correct, although I don t have all the details right now at my fingertips. Alice Miller wrote
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 12, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Prometheus,

                I believe the information about Hitler is probably correct, although I don't have all the details right now at my fingertips. Alice Miller wrote extensively about child abuse in her book "For Your Own Good" and in particular about Hitler and Stalin.

                Here's a web site I found:

                "The Führer once told his secretary that during one of the regular beatings given him by his father he was able to stop crying, to feel nothing, and even to count the thirty-two blows he received."

                http://www.naturalchild.org/alice_miller/adolf_hitler.html

                The type of treatment children received in the culture of those times was pretty bad and is geared toward Authoritarianism and Hierarchy. Klemp as the Sole Ultimate Leader of eckankar is really very similar, except that we live in a Democracy that over time has developed laws that restrict the use of overt violent force. I suspect that those who will never leave eckankar have some kind of similar need to have an Authoritarian Leader, lem/mahanta. Actually, Klemp runs a Theocracy.

                Non eckster

                --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello Non eckster,
                > I don't believe Klemp had a
                > tough or an abusive childhood
                > except for having to do farm
                > chores, but that was expected
                > from all farm kids. FYI, HK had
                > an Older brother and a younger
                > sister and brother as well. Thus,
                > there was no "Virgin Birth" as
                > required in Eckankar's first Holy
                > Book the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
                > Book One, Chapter 6.
                >
                > Klemp's father died (Oct. 1971)
                > when he was around 30 years old.
                >
                > BTW- I always heard that Hitler
                > had a charitable and protective
                > mother and that his father died
                > when he was a young boy. Then
                > again, I can see why he lied about
                > having it tough just as Klemp lies.
                > But, it could be that this is just more
                > delusional thinking and a means
                > of coping which comes from an
                > overprotective ego.
                >
                > As far as that All Boys Lutheran
                > School that Klemp attended...
                > it wasn't because little Harold
                > was spiritual or was seeking God.
                > He has admitted that he wanted
                > to go because his cousin was
                > attending... and he wanted to
                > get away from having to do farm
                > chores, especially, during those
                > Wisconsin winters. But, remember
                > too, HK also isolated himself from
                > his siblings.
                >
                >
                > The funny thing is that Twitchell
                > (the first Mahanta) had something
                > negative to say about these "All
                > Boys Schools." In the Summer
                > of 1971 Twitchell gave some
                > interviews that were put into
                > the book, "Difficulties Of Becoming
                > The Living ECK Master." On pages
                > 46-48 the Mahanta/LEM gives
                > this explanation and warning:
                >
                > "This is one reason we don't have
                > ashrams in ECKANKAR. They can
                > create unhealthy situations and
                > individuals seldom have their own
                > psychic space to breathe in. Now
                > you see, the same thing occurs in
                > seminaries of the Christian church.
                > These Christian seminaries, when
                > you're training young boys to grow
                > up, they are looking for all the
                > things which will explain to them
                > manhood or the problems of life.
                > It can create sexual aberrations.
                > ... you can walk around the corner
                > of one of these ashrams or the
                > monasteries and find the boys there
                > abusing themselves... this seems
                > to be part of the animal nature in
                > which Indians in the religious orders
                > allow these young people to do. I
                > had always been surprised to see
                > that myself, no matter how much
                > I had become accustomed to chancing
                > upon such a thing."
                >
                > In the next sentence (page 48) Twitch
                > mentions leaving India and that he
                > was about 16 years old at this time...
                > liar! Even Klemp states on Eckankar.org
                > that at age 27, in 1935, that Twitchell
                > had never travelled far from home
                > when he was "exaggerating" and
                > "twisting facts" to get into "Who's
                > Who in Kentucky." Interesting, that
                > in 1971, that Twichell (the Mahanta)
                > is still lying about his past. But, what
                > does this really tell us? It tells us that
                > Gross and Klemp merely inherited
                > an organization/church (scam) built
                > upon a foundation of lies. Klemp is
                > both the protector and perpetrator
                > of lies, distortion, and delusion.
                >
                > Anyway, it seems that Twitchell and
                > Klemp have an opposite view on the
                > subject of masturbation. Klemp
                > recently commented on the subject
                > and said that it was okay. However,
                > IMO, the act itself fulfills (natural)
                > desires of lust. It's quite a quagmire
                > for the Mahanta and Spiritual Leader
                > of Eckankar and Modern Prophet
                > (Klemp) to take such a position.
                > Does one repress these innate desires
                > and become frustrated, or become
                > a "spiritual" hypocrite by saying one
                > thing and doing another? Or, is one
                > able to take the, supposedly, higher
                > "spiritual" path and remain chaste
                > and devoid of "bad" lower plane
                > desires and attachments? Apparently
                > Klemp is saying no!
                >
                > Prometheus
                >
                >
                > eckchains wrote:
                > Interesting history of Klemp's childhood. Seems odd that his father would pay
                > for him to go to a religious boarding school. But who knows for sure the
                > dynamics involved. We don't know what kind of discipline was used. Shaming and
                > and physical abuse can make a child grow up to be a sociopath and they learn not
                > to really feel empathy, often mistreating their own children. Of course it is
                > not 100%. There are also examples of those who had a stronger constitution and
                > eventually learned how to change and be a better person instead, but usually it
                > requires a willingness to accept help, whatever the form.
                >
                > When I watch Klemp he seems to always have this superior, contemptuous look in
                > his eyes, no matter how big the intermittent practiced grin. It is reported that
                > Hitler was beaten on almost a daily basis, and bragged about how much of a
                > beating he could take without crying. He was a gang leader in his teens, shall
                > we say the worst kind of Cult leader, ruthless.
                >
                > It is also interesting that Klemp has a ruthless quality to his personality.
                > When he fought it out with Gross in court over who was the real eck master or
                > mahanta he eventually claimed absolute power over his little eck kingdom. H.I.
                > eckists I know have that same ruthless quality, in that they are ready to go to
                > war if you ask too many questions about their precious eckankar. They are also
                > big hypocrites. Anyone want some eck love?
                >
                > Non eckster ; )
                >
                > prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Non eckster and All,
                > > I always thought that a combination
                > > of karma and choice were available
                > > to Souls who were future Eckists in
                > > this lifetime. After all, it has been stated
                > > that we had been EK chelas in past lives.
                > > Therefore, the Mahanta would intervene
                > > for us and by-pass the Lords of Karma,
                > > and, if we had advanced far enough that
                > > we would be permitted to have some
                > > choices as well.
                > >
                > >
                > > Here's Klemp's response:
                > > "Your experience was much like mine
                > > too. I would have thought long and hard
                > > before engaging in another lifetime with
                > > Dad for a parent. He had many good points,
                > > to be sure. However, as I left childhood,
                > > we were increasingly uncomfortable around
                > > each other."
                > >
                > > ME: Klemp is not being completely honest.
                > > Little Harold was uncomfortable around most
                > > people, especially, adults. He criticized and
                > > judged people constantly and had a negative
                > > attitude. Klemp chose to be sent to an all boys
                > > Lutheran school and this was a financial burden
                > > to his family, but instead of appreciation he gave
                > > them disdain. And, little Harold only contributed
                > > to farm chores during the Summer, thus, putting
                > > more strain on other family members. HK's unloving
                > > attitude and lack of empathy is transparent.
                > >
                > > HK: "People often have an exalted view of
                > > how much they say they have in their own
                > > lives. Usually it amounts to very little.
                > >
                > > BUT to gain esteem in their own eyes for
                > > dreams unmet, they tell others that they
                > > were spiritually advanced enough to choose
                > > the conditions of their own rebirth. It really
                > > is an excuse in delusion." [end]
                > >
                > > ME: Isn't that what Klemp has done? Isn't
                > > that what Paul and Darwin did as well?
                > > True, there are a lot of delusional H.I.'s,
                > > but can one blame them when they emulate
                > > Klemp? The Catch-22 is that even though
                > > Klemp's warning is put into print it won't
                > > matter. The delusion is so thick and encrusted
                > > that neither Klemp or his H.I.s will recognize
                > > it! Delusion protects them (and their egos)
                > > from the Truth. If anyone has an "exalted
                > > view" of who they think they are it's the
                > > fake Mahanta/Spiritual Master Klemp! LOL!
                > > It's the blind leading the blind!
                > >
                > > Prometheus
                > >
                > > eckchains wrote:
                > > Parents and society are responsible for nurturing and raising their children
                > > with compassion and non abusively. It is an absurd New Age belief that
                > children
                > > choose their parents. Children do not have that choice. Abused children often
                > > feel responsible for bad parenting, and are soooo much better off if the
                > parents
                > > are there for them and doing the best they can without being authoritarian or
                > > neglectful. Psychological studies bear this out
                > >
                > > I heard on the radio that it is even stated in the Bible and other idiotic
                > > religious texts, that those who do not "honor" their parents should be put to
                > > death. Children aren't property. And some parents should be in prison, IMHO.
                > >
                > > Non eckster ; )
                > >
                > >
                > > prometheus wrote:
                > >
                > > > Q: "Several times in the last few
                > > > days I have heard different Eckists,
                > > > an H.I. included, talk about how
                > > > people, as Soul, choose their parents
                > > > and the circumstances into which
                > > > they will be born. Most of the chelas
                > > > in my area seem to subscribe to
                > > > this belief. My understanding is that
                > > > some Souls have worked out their
                > > > karma enough to have earned the
                > > > right to choose for themselves but
                > > > that maybe not all people or even
                > > > all Eckists fit into this category.
                > > >
                > > > One night in the dream state, I was
                > > > shown what occurred before I was
                > > > born into this lifetime. I was before
                > > > the Lords of Karma. They told me
                > > > what the conditions would be for the
                > > > first eighteen years of this lifetime.
                > > > I did not have a choice in the matter.
                > > > I would appreciate any clarity or
                > > > insights you could give me about
                > > > this aspect of the ECK teachings."
                > > >
                > > > ME: Before giving Klemp's response
                > > > does anyone else want to comment
                > > > and give their opinions. Since Klemp
                > > > had issues with his father and didn't
                > > > chose to attend his father's funeral
                > > > or comfort his mother from her grief
                > > > his response to this topic will be more
                > > > bias. What would be a balanced and
                > > > detached response to this Lords of
                > > > Karma issue on a Soul level?
                > > >
                > > > Prometheus
                >
              • prometheus_973
                Hello Non eckster, The info you found on Hitler sounds correct. I found the below info and it shows that he was 13 when his father died. BTW- True, Klemp has a
                Message 7 of 7 , Jun 13, 2011
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                  Hello Non eckster,
                  The info you found on Hitler
                  sounds correct. I found the
                  below info and it shows that
                  he was 13 when his father
                  died.

                  BTW- True, Klemp has a German
                  heritage, but I'm fairly certain HK
                  was not beaten any more than the
                  rest of those of that generation...
                  remember, "spare the rod, spoil
                  the child?" And, let's not forget
                  how Harold treated his only child,
                  Marion, when he brought out an
                  old push mower for her to repair
                  if she wanted a green lawn to play
                  on. She was around 10 years old
                  at the time.

                  "In the town of Leonding, Austria, on the bitterly cold morning of Saturday, January 3, 1903, Alois Hitler, 65, went out for a walk, stopping at a favorite inn where he sat down and asked for a glass of wine. He collapsed before the wine was brought to him and died within minutes from a lung hemorrhage. It was not the first one he had suffered.

                  Young Adolf, now 13, broke down and cried when he saw his father's body laid out. His father's funeral mass in the small church at Leonding was well attended. A newspaper in nearby Linz published an obituary that included the following sentence: "The harsh words that sometimes fell from his lips could not belie the warm heart that beat under the rough exterior."

                  For Adolf, there would be no more harsh words and no more arguing with his father, especially over his career choice. Hitler's father had insisted Adolf become a civil servant like himself. Young Hitler, however, had dreams of becoming a great artist. Now Hitler was free from the stern words and domineering authority of his father. In fact, young Adolf was now the male head of the household, a position of some importance in those days.

                  Financially, his father had left the Hitler family fairly well provided for. Hitler's mother received half of her husband's monthly pension, plus death benefits. Adolf received a small amount each month, plus a small inheritance. The family also owned a house in Leonding which had been paid for mostly in cash.

                  For convenience, young Hitler went to live at a boys' boarding house in Linz where he was attending the technical high school. This saved him the long daily commute from Leonding. On weekends, he went back home to his mother.

                  Hitler was remembered by the woman who ran the boarding house as a nervous, awkward boy, who spent most of his time reading and drawing. Although Hitler loved to read, he was a lazy and uncooperative student in school.

                  In Autumn 1903, when he returned to school after summer vacation, things got worse. Along with his poor grades in mathematics and French, Hitler behaved badly, knowing he was likely to fail. With no threat of discipline at home and disinterest shown by his school teachers, Hitler performed pranks and practical jokes aimed at the teachers he now disliked so much.

                  Among Hitler's antics – giving contrary, insulting, argumentative answers to questions which upset the teacher and delighted the other boys who sometimes applauded him. With those boys, he also released cockroaches in the classroom, rearranged the furniture, and organized confusion in the classroom by doing the opposite of what the teacher said.

                  Years later, even as Führer, Hitler liked to dwell on his schoolboy pranks and would recall them in detail to his top generals in the midst of waging a world war.

                  It was only Hitler's history teacher, Dr. Leopold Pötsch, and his tales of heroic Germans from bygone eras who kept his interest and earned his respect. By his early teens, Hitler already had a keen interest in German nationalism along with a big interest in art and architecture.

                  Young Hitler put all his hopes in the dream of becoming a great artist, especially as his prospects at the high school grew dimmer. Some of the teachers were also anxious to see Hitler thrown out of the school because of the trouble he caused.

                  One teacher later recalled young Hitler as one who "reacted with ill-concealed hostility to advice or reproof; at the same time, he demanded of his fellow pupils their unqualified subservience, fancying himself in the role of leader, at the same time indulging in many a less innocuous prank of a kind not uncommon among immature youths."

                  In May of 1904, at age 15, Adolf Hitler received the Catholic Sacrament of Confirmation in the Linz Cathedral. As a young boy he once entertained the idea of becoming a priest. But by the time he was confirmed he was bored and uninterested in his faith and hardly bothered to make the appropriate responses during the religious ceremony.

                  Shortly after this, Hitler left the high school at Linz. He had been given a passing mark in French on a make-up exam on the condition that he not return to the school. In September 1904, he entered another high school, at Steyr, a small town 25 miles from Linz. He lived in a boarding house there, sharing a room with another boy. They sometimes amused themselves by shooting rats.

                  Hitler got terrible marks his first semester at the new school, failing math, German, French, and even got a poor grade for handwriting. He improved during his second semester and was told he might even graduate if he first took a special make-up exam in the fall. During the summer, however, Hitler suffered from a bleeding lung ailment, an inherited medical problem.

                  He regained his health and passed the exam in September 1905, and celebrated with fellow students by getting drunk. He wound up the next morning lying on the side of the road, awakened by a milkwoman. After that experience he swore off alcohol and never drank again.

                  But Hitler could not bring himself to take the final exam for his diploma. Using poor health as his excuse, he left school at age sixteen never to return. From now on he would be self taught, continuing his heavy reading habits and interpreting what he read on his own, living in his own dreamy reality and creating his own sense of truth."

                  Prometheus

                  "Non" wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Prometheus,
                  >
                  > I believe the information about Hitler is probably correct, although I don't have all the details right now at my fingertips. Alice Miller wrote extensively about child abuse in her book "For Your Own Good" and in particular about Hitler and Stalin.
                  >
                  > Here's a web site I found:
                  >
                  > "The Führer once told his secretary that during one of the regular beatings given him by his father he was able to stop crying, to feel nothing, and even to count the thirty-two blows he received."
                  >
                  > http://www.naturalchild.org/alice_miller/adolf_hitler.html
                  >
                  > The type of treatment children received in the culture of those times was pretty bad and is geared toward Authoritarianism and Hierarchy. Klemp as the Sole Ultimate Leader of eckankar is really very similar, except that we live in a Democracy that over time has developed laws that restrict the use of overt violent force. I suspect that those who will never leave eckankar have some kind of similar need to have an Authoritarian Leader, lem/mahanta. Actually, Klemp runs a Theocracy.
                  >
                  > Non eckster
                  >
                  > --- In EckankarSurvivorsAnonymous@yahoogroups.com, "prometheus_973" <prometheus_973@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello Non eckster,
                  > > I don't believe Klemp had a
                  > > tough or an abusive childhood
                  > > except for having to do farm
                  > > chores, but that was expected
                  > > from all farm kids. FYI, HK had
                  > > an Older brother and a younger
                  > > sister and brother as well. Thus,
                  > > there was no "Virgin Birth" as
                  > > required in Eckankar's first Holy
                  > > Book the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
                  > > Book One, Chapter 6.
                  > >
                  > > Klemp's father died (Oct. 1971)
                  > > when he was around 30 years old.
                  > >
                  > > BTW- I always heard that Hitler
                  > > had a charitable and protective
                  > > mother and that his father died
                  > > when he was a young boy. Then
                  > > again, I can see why he lied about
                  > > having it tough just as Klemp lies.
                  > > But, it could be that this is just more
                  > > delusional thinking and a means
                  > > of coping which comes from an
                  > > overprotective ego.
                  > >
                  > > As far as that All Boys Lutheran
                  > > School that Klemp attended...
                  > > it wasn't because little Harold
                  > > was spiritual or was seeking God.
                  > > He has admitted that he wanted
                  > > to go because his cousin was
                  > > attending... and he wanted to
                  > > get away from having to do farm
                  > > chores, especially, during those
                  > > Wisconsin winters. But, remember
                  > > too, HK also isolated himself from
                  > > his siblings.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > The funny thing is that Twitchell
                  > > (the first Mahanta) had something
                  > > negative to say about these "All
                  > > Boys Schools." In the Summer
                  > > of 1971 Twitchell gave some
                  > > interviews that were put into
                  > > the book, "Difficulties Of Becoming
                  > > The Living ECK Master." On pages
                  > > 46-48 the Mahanta/LEM gives
                  > > this explanation and warning:
                  > >
                  > > "This is one reason we don't have
                  > > ashrams in ECKANKAR. They can
                  > > create unhealthy situations and
                  > > individuals seldom have their own
                  > > psychic space to breathe in. Now
                  > > you see, the same thing occurs in
                  > > seminaries of the Christian church.
                  > > These Christian seminaries, when
                  > > you're training young boys to grow
                  > > up, they are looking for all the
                  > > things which will explain to them
                  > > manhood or the problems of life.
                  > > It can create sexual aberrations.
                  > > ... you can walk around the corner
                  > > of one of these ashrams or the
                  > > monasteries and find the boys there
                  > > abusing themselves... this seems
                  > > to be part of the animal nature in
                  > > which Indians in the religious orders
                  > > allow these young people to do. I
                  > > had always been surprised to see
                  > > that myself, no matter how much
                  > > I had become accustomed to chancing
                  > > upon such a thing."
                  > >
                  > > In the next sentence (page 48) Twitch
                  > > mentions leaving India and that he
                  > > was about 16 years old at this time...
                  > > liar! Even Klemp states on Eckankar.org
                  > > that at age 27, in 1935, that Twitchell
                  > > had never travelled far from home
                  > > when he was "exaggerating" and
                  > > "twisting facts" to get into "Who's
                  > > Who in Kentucky." Interesting, that
                  > > in 1971, that Twichell (the Mahanta)
                  > > is still lying about his past. But, what
                  > > does this really tell us? It tells us that
                  > > Gross and Klemp merely inherited
                  > > an organization/church (scam) built
                  > > upon a foundation of lies. Klemp is
                  > > both the protector and perpetrator
                  > > of lies, distortion, and delusion.
                  > >
                  > > Anyway, it seems that Twitchell and
                  > > Klemp have an opposite view on the
                  > > subject of masturbation. Klemp
                  > > recently commented on the subject
                  > > and said that it was okay. However,
                  > > IMO, the act itself fulfills (natural)
                  > > desires of lust. It's quite a quagmire
                  > > for the Mahanta and Spiritual Leader
                  > > of Eckankar and Modern Prophet
                  > > (Klemp) to take such a position.
                  > > Does one repress these innate desires
                  > > and become frustrated, or become
                  > > a "spiritual" hypocrite by saying one
                  > > thing and doing another? Or, is one
                  > > able to take the, supposedly, higher
                  > > "spiritual" path and remain chaste
                  > > and devoid of "bad" lower plane
                  > > desires and attachments? Apparently
                  > > Klemp is saying no!
                  > >
                  > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > eckchains wrote:
                  > > Interesting history of Klemp's childhood. Seems odd that his father would pay
                  > > for him to go to a religious boarding school. But who knows for sure the
                  > > dynamics involved. We don't know what kind of discipline was used. Shaming and
                  > > and physical abuse can make a child grow up to be a sociopath and they learn not
                  > > to really feel empathy, often mistreating their own children. Of course it is
                  > > not 100%. There are also examples of those who had a stronger constitution and
                  > > eventually learned how to change and be a better person instead, but usually it
                  > > requires a willingness to accept help, whatever the form.
                  > >
                  > > When I watch Klemp he seems to always have this superior, contemptuous look in
                  > > his eyes, no matter how big the intermittent practiced grin. It is reported that
                  > > Hitler was beaten on almost a daily basis, and bragged about how much of a
                  > > beating he could take without crying. He was a gang leader in his teens, shall
                  > > we say the worst kind of Cult leader, ruthless.
                  > >
                  > > It is also interesting that Klemp has a ruthless quality to his personality.
                  > > When he fought it out with Gross in court over who was the real eck master or
                  > > mahanta he eventually claimed absolute power over his little eck kingdom. H.I.
                  > > eckists I know have that same ruthless quality, in that they are ready to go to
                  > > war if you ask too many questions about their precious eckankar. They are also
                  > > big hypocrites. Anyone want some eck love?
                  > >
                  > > Non eckster ; )
                  > >
                  > > prometheus wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hello Non eckster and All,
                  > > > I always thought that a combination
                  > > > of karma and choice were available
                  > > > to Souls who were future Eckists in
                  > > > this lifetime. After all, it has been stated
                  > > > that we had been EK chelas in past lives.
                  > > > Therefore, the Mahanta would intervene
                  > > > for us and by-pass the Lords of Karma,
                  > > > and, if we had advanced far enough that
                  > > > we would be permitted to have some
                  > > > choices as well.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Here's Klemp's response:
                  > > > "Your experience was much like mine
                  > > > too. I would have thought long and hard
                  > > > before engaging in another lifetime with
                  > > > Dad for a parent. He had many good points,
                  > > > to be sure. However, as I left childhood,
                  > > > we were increasingly uncomfortable around
                  > > > each other."
                  > > >
                  > > > ME: Klemp is not being completely honest.
                  > > > Little Harold was uncomfortable around most
                  > > > people, especially, adults. He criticized and
                  > > > judged people constantly and had a negative
                  > > > attitude. Klemp chose to be sent to an all boys
                  > > > Lutheran school and this was a financial burden
                  > > > to his family, but instead of appreciation he gave
                  > > > them disdain. And, little Harold only contributed
                  > > > to farm chores during the Summer, thus, putting
                  > > > more strain on other family members. HK's unloving
                  > > > attitude and lack of empathy is transparent.
                  > > >
                  > > > HK: "People often have an exalted view of
                  > > > how much they say they have in their own
                  > > > lives. Usually it amounts to very little.
                  > > >
                  > > > BUT to gain esteem in their own eyes for
                  > > > dreams unmet, they tell others that they
                  > > > were spiritually advanced enough to choose
                  > > > the conditions of their own rebirth. It really
                  > > > is an excuse in delusion." [end]
                  > > >
                  > > > ME: Isn't that what Klemp has done? Isn't
                  > > > that what Paul and Darwin did as well?
                  > > > True, there are a lot of delusional H.I.'s,
                  > > > but can one blame them when they emulate
                  > > > Klemp? The Catch-22 is that even though
                  > > > Klemp's warning is put into print it won't
                  > > > matter. The delusion is so thick and encrusted
                  > > > that neither Klemp or his H.I.s will recognize
                  > > > it! Delusion protects them (and their egos)
                  > > > from the Truth. If anyone has an "exalted
                  > > > view" of who they think they are it's the
                  > > > fake Mahanta/Spiritual Master Klemp! LOL!
                  > > > It's the blind leading the blind!
                  > > >
                  > > > Prometheus
                  > > >
                  > > > eckchains wrote:
                  > > > Parents and society are responsible for nurturing and raising their children
                  > > > with compassion and non abusively. It is an absurd New Age belief that
                  > > children
                  > > > choose their parents. Children do not have that choice. Abused children often
                  > > > feel responsible for bad parenting, and are soooo much better off if the
                  > > parents
                  > > > are there for them and doing the best they can without being authoritarian or
                  > > > neglectful. Psychological studies bear this out
                  > > >
                  > > > I heard on the radio that it is even stated in the Bible and other idiotic
                  > > > religious texts, that those who do not "honor" their parents should be put to
                  > > > death. Children aren't property. And some parents should be in prison, IMHO.
                  > > >
                  > > > Non eckster ; )
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > prometheus wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > > Q: "Several times in the last few
                  > > > > days I have heard different Eckists,
                  > > > > an H.I. included, talk about how
                  > > > > people, as Soul, choose their parents
                  > > > > and the circumstances into which
                  > > > > they will be born. Most of the chelas
                  > > > > in my area seem to subscribe to
                  > > > > this belief. My understanding is that
                  > > > > some Souls have worked out their
                  > > > > karma enough to have earned the
                  > > > > right to choose for themselves but
                  > > > > that maybe not all people or even
                  > > > > all Eckists fit into this category.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > One night in the dream state, I was
                  > > > > shown what occurred before I was
                  > > > > born into this lifetime. I was before
                  > > > > the Lords of Karma. They told me
                  > > > > what the conditions would be for the
                  > > > > first eighteen years of this lifetime.
                  > > > > I did not have a choice in the matter.
                  > > > > I would appreciate any clarity or
                  > > > > insights you could give me about
                  > > > > this aspect of the ECK teachings."
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ME: Before giving Klemp's response
                  > > > > does anyone else want to comment
                  > > > > and give their opinions. Since Klemp
                  > > > > had issues with his father and didn't
                  > > > > chose to attend his father's funeral
                  > > > > or comfort his mother from her grief
                  > > > > his response to this topic will be more
                  > > > > bias. What would be a balanced and
                  > > > > detached response to this Lords of
                  > > > > Karma issue on a Soul level?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Prometheus
                  > >
                  >
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